1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:06,440 Hello and welcome to the special 12 part Career Insight series 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,600 featuring interviews with inspiring women across finance 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,240 spanning trading, investment banking, data analytics, private 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,640 equity and venture capital. These conversations are designed 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,360 to deliver actionable career insights while educating and 6 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,400 empowering the new generation of talent in our industry. 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,640 In today's episode, we meet Zara Rozzo, whose journey into 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,840 finance didn't start in a bank, but in tech with a STEM degree. 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,320 Zara began her career with internships at Microsoft and 10 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,960 Tesla before pivoting into sustainable investments at the 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,920 Swiss bank UBS, where she now focuses on infrastructure 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,720 equity. In this conversation, Zara 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,960 shares how she went from classical studies to engineering 14 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,440 to finding her ideal fit at UBS, proving that with curiosity, 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,120 self-awareness, and a growth mindset, your STEM background 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,680 can be your biggest asset in finance. 17 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:08,280 So let's dive in. Hello Zara, real pleasure 18 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,000 finally to have this conversation. 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,520 How are you? Very good, thanks. 20 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,360 And well, the pleasure is mine. Thanks for having me here. 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,240 Yeah. And the reason why I'm so 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,440 excited about this is that we are roughly about halfway 23 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,000 through this series we've been doing with a variety of of women 24 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,800 across the industry. And you are someone that really 25 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,680 stuck out to me for a number of reasons, but mainly because of 26 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,520 your your background, which I know we're going to dive into 27 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,760 because I think a lot of students or young professionals 28 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,680 who are thinking about career decisions, you know, you've 29 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,160 worked an intern at Tesla, Microsoft, McKinsey, you're now 30 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,640 at UBSI think this will be super interesting, particularly for 31 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,440 people as well from a non finance background, especially 32 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,760 those from the STEM subject matter as well. 33 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,520 And also location wise, you know, you've been to Italy, 34 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,800 Germany, Japan, Switzerland, so, so much there. 35 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,640 So perhaps we can start from the top like we do with all of our 36 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,960 guests and take me back to, you know, when you were a student, 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,360 your childhood, what were you thinking career wise? 38 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,360 And then we could build up to the present day and what you're 39 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:13,360 doing. That would be great. 40 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,000 Sure, sure. Thanks for that. 41 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,880 Of course. So I'm originally from Milan. 42 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:22,600 I've been growing up there in the outskirts of Milan for I 43 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,800 would say 1920 years of my life before I started moving around 44 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,280 like a spinning top. And as I was growing up, I grew 45 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,880 up as the first of four siblings, which I always like to 46 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,360 mention because I think it really shaped me as as a person 47 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,560 going on also career wise. And I think if there are any 48 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,440 listeners in listeners in the crowd that can relate as as 49 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,280 first kid, you, you know, you're the first one you really need to 50 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,400 stop on top of stay on top of of parents expectations. 51 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,240 And you need to go out discovery, understand yourself 52 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,760 and you really don't have anyone in front of you showing you the 53 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,720 path. So I think that really I brought 54 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,720 that with me along my journey and well, during Milan, I had 55 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,880 the, you know, the basic education for myself. 56 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,400 So I started very far away from where I am today, both 57 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:14,360 figuratively and, and, and physically, geographically 58 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,240 speaking, because I started out in classical studies during high 59 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,360 school. So I was studying like Greek, 60 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,800 Latin, ancient languages, dead languages, as they called them. 61 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,160 But also that I think shaped me very much as a person, as a 62 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,800 person in my way of thinking and critical thinking especially. 63 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,320 And you know, when you spend your days on great thinkers of 64 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,560 the past, you really learn to question everything. 65 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,440 And I just brought that along with me across my journey. 66 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,680 And when the first pivotal moment came, you know, choosing 67 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,240 what to do during uni, I think it was the first time I applied 68 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,880 a way of decision making and thinking that that I brought 69 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,960 along with me, which was I've always tried to go beyond what I 70 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:01,920 already knew and what I already experienced. 71 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,280 I would say that's a bit of my red thread throughout my life. 72 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,400 And in that case, you know, I did a lot of, you know, 73 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,280 literature, Italian and not, not a lot of math. 74 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,400 And I really just liked that. And I felt I was missing that 75 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,760 piece. So I said, what are you not to 76 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,480 move in completely to the other side of things? 77 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,480 And that's how I pivoted to engineering. 78 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,840 Basically. It's not a common move to do for 79 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:26,360 people from classical study to engineering, but I just felt it 80 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,760 was right and it could complement myself as a person 81 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,960 and as an academic student at the time I joined, specifically 82 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,960 industrial engineering, which I, I find is a really good path 83 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,920 because you can really blend, you know, the engineering side 84 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,840 of it, physics, chemistry, all of that with more managerial 85 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,920 skills and understanding and, you know, a company. 86 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,120 And at the time I was kind of sick, honestly, of not 87 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,480 understanding like titles of newspapers with, with the 88 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,520 economies. And I think that really could 89 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,200 give me an edge. It did. 90 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,040 So it was a great choice in terms of content, but 91 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,480 specifically really helped me to live kind of experiences that I 92 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,040 wouldn't have not lived otherwise. 93 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,320 So university really gave me the chance to travel around. 94 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,920 Basically, I started with my first experience in Hamburg, in 95 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,080 Germany. And again, there was a pivotal 96 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,120 moment for my life. I just understood that that's 97 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,480 what I wanted. I wanted to go abroad, live 98 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,960 different experiences, know different people. 99 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,640 It just enriched me so much that I knew I needed to do it all at 100 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,200 once. So when I came back, I already 101 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:32,640 knew I wanted to go abroad again. 102 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,160 Comment hit As for many people, it kind of changed my life. 103 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,240 So I stayed in Milan for the time being. 104 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,680 I kept on my master's studies with, I kept on basically 105 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:44,960 management engineering. So it's the same as industrial 106 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,160 engineering, but you take a little bit of more managerial 107 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:53,600 path, let's say. And as I was there, I managed to 108 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,280 enter a double degree degree program, which is called QTAM, 109 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,080 which stands for Quantitative Techniques for Economics and 110 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,280 Management. Because I realized I really 111 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:04,160 wanted to stay on the quant side. 112 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:08,200 So yes, managerial side, but I really wanted to master quantity 113 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,320 stuff, let's say. And also because that allowed me 114 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,760 to do 2 additional exchanges. The first one I did in Munich 115 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:20,320 and the second one in in Tokyo. So all of these academics 116 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,480 experienced, you know, enriched me so much both academically, 117 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,520 professionally, and I'll get there in a second, but 118 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,760 especially as a person. And, and I've brought that with 119 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,160 me until today. I felt like uni was not enough. 120 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,360 So I needed to do some professional experience. 121 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:40,000 And as I'm, you know, COVID hit as I was at home, it just 122 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,320 happened that I could get an internship at Microsoft and I 123 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,760 was working on IoT and clouds applied to different industries. 124 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,440 One of them was energy and sustainability. 125 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,680 So I loved my time at Microsoft. I, I really liked it, but I just 126 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:56,640 understood that tech was not for me. 127 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,640 What was for me was the industry I was applying tech to. 128 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,800 So, you know, energy and sustainability. 129 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,840 And that's how then it was much easier the second time when I 130 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:09,400 needed to choose an internship. So it didn't just happen. 131 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,840 I needed to, you know, select a company. 132 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,280 I knew I wanted it to be in the energy space, energy transition 133 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,960 space specifically. And that's how I ended up in 134 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,720 Tesla basically, And I don't know if many people know, but 135 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,800 Tesla don't only have the vehicle business, they only 136 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:26,920 hold, they also have an energy storage business. 137 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:32,080 So that's what I was working on. Again, I loved it, but I was 138 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,520 there. I realized I didn't quite like 139 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,320 staying on one product, one company. 140 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,000 I really like to see more of that. 141 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,560 So more companies, more projects just have more of a systemic 142 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,400 view. And I felt like the financial 143 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,440 industry could give me that. And also another thing I 144 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,560 realized was I, I always was driven by this idea of having an 145 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,880 impact. And I realized, you know, you 146 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,840 really can do that faster when you can direct money. 147 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,480 That's how I think our world works. 148 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,320 And that's basically how I was reached side of the table. 149 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,240 So from the investee, from the company to the investor side of 150 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,680 things. And I ended up in UBS, where I 151 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,600 am today in their, you know, sustainable investments area 152 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,160 within private markets where also infrastructure sits and 153 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,080 where I undertook a credit program, which I just finished 154 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,000 like a month ago actually. And yeah, where I'm working also 155 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,400 today in the infrastructure equity business basically. 156 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,120 Oh, thank you so much. That's such a, a great 157 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,440 explanation of, of your background and actually you 158 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,120 answered what was probably going to be one of the things I was 159 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,559 going to ask about why the pivots through these industries. 160 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,320 But what you said made a lot of sense. 161 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,919 But perhaps I could reshape that question a little bit and ask 162 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:46,960 perhaps. I think a lot of people find a 163 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,080 lack of confidence to be able to try to have the self-awareness 164 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,560 or assess their present situation and whether they're 165 00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:57,760 satisfied and then making that leap to then move. 166 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,400 You've done that it seems like quite a few times from the what 167 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,080 you were studying originally at school to then going engineering 168 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,120 to then going into these companies and going, you know, 169 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,960 it sounds very definitive, your process and it all makes logical 170 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,720 sense. But so many people I think would 171 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,720 struggle to take that leap of faith and back themselves and 172 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,800 make a transition like that. Is there any like process that 173 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,880 you apply to like self review your situation and your 174 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,640 progression? Yes, yes, 100%. 175 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,640 Look, the first thing is you need to realize it's a process, 176 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:33,800 right? So it's a journey. 177 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,360 So I would have never guessed even just two or three years 178 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:38,720 ago, I would have been here today. 179 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,120 So every step of the way kind of led me to the next one. 180 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,560 And that was only possible because of two things. 181 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:49,920 I think the first one is I was always genuinely curious. 182 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,640 So I, you know, pushed for to learn more, to, to know more. 183 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,400 And I said yes to everything because of not to everything. 184 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,120 Sorry. I said yes to a lot of things, 185 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:01,360 but I said yes to opportunities when they arise, like it 186 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,600 happened with Microsoft. I'll make a couple of examples 187 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,360 now, but I said yes to opportunities and I seek for 188 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,040 more when I felt like I didn't have the kind of opportunity I 189 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,640 wanted. And the second bit is I could. 190 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,120 As I said, it was not really a random choice, but it was a 191 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,840 strategic choice. And that's just because of the 192 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,360 self-awareness I developed through time. 193 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,600 And I think we are not taught this enough in university. 194 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:31,840 You really need to spend time to think about yourself, who you 195 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,680 are, what you like, what you don't like. 196 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:36,440 And it's OK not to have it all, you know, figure it out day one. 197 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,760 But I'm quite sure your gut feeling already tells you, you 198 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,520 know, at least the direction. That's how I felt. 199 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,680 I had the direction, but I was not quite sure. 200 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:49,000 And I feel like I kind of adjusted with time better and 201 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,320 better. And to make you, you know, real 202 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,760 examples of that. So the experience in Microsoft 203 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:57,720 was was, you know, it just happened to me. 204 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,640 I was doing one of those business challenge in university 205 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,040 as as the ones you probably proposed as amplify me to 206 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,080 students, right. So companies came to Polytechnic 207 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,360 of Milan where I studied and Microsoft was one of them. 208 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,760 It was like a 10 day challenge and then they were interviewing 209 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,480 people they liked and that's how I got my into chip. 210 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:19,280 And you know, I said yes, it was not obvious because I never 211 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,520 thought about tech, to be totally honest. 212 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:26,000 And also, this is very Italian specific, but it's not common to 213 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,840 work as you study, you normally finish your studies and then you 214 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,360 go on working, even though I don't agree with that. 215 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,240 But it was at the moment I felt insecure, like shall I, you 216 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,960 know, be behind with my studies, be behind with my exams. 217 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,800 At the end I just said yes. So that's that's the first 218 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:43,520 point. Yes, the opportunity. 219 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,520 And as I was in it, I kind of explore different things. 220 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,320 And you know, as I said, I was working with IoT, which by the 221 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,680 way, is Internet of Things applied to different verticals. 222 00:11:53,680 --> 00:11:56,560 And one of them was energy. My gut feeling told me, you 223 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:00,080 know, go there and I started, I said, I like this. 224 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,200 I told this to my manager. I was very vocal about it. 225 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,240 And I started, you know, just get more projects in it and get 226 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,120 involved and work more on that, even though it was my, you know, 227 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,840 my prior, prior responsibility, primary responsibility, sorry. 228 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,760 And that's how I developed at least a bit of an understanding. 229 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:20,680 And by the end of it, it was six months. 230 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:24,200 I was even an offer, but I said, look, you know, I realized tech 231 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,880 is, you know, not my thing. I literally sit down and made a 232 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,560 list of things. What did I like, what I didn't 233 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:33,280 like or what I would do differently. 234 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,800 At least what I liked was to have an impact. 235 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,040 You know, Microsoft is huge and they do a lot in terms of 236 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:40,640 impact. And I knew I just wanted to keep 237 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,440 on with that. And 2nd, I really liked that, 238 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,800 you know, energy sustainability piece. 239 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,640 So in a piece. So I knew I wanted to, to stay 240 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,240 within that. What I didn't like was that it 241 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,640 was very qualitative as a job, which, you know, might fit some 242 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,960 people didn't fit me. I needed more numbers. 243 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,080 So I just kept this within my head for the next step. 244 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,880 And when the next step came, eventually I was in Munich and I 245 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,080 needed to find an internship and at the same time I was 246 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,880 developing those interests. So in general, I really 247 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,280 encourage people to study and work not at the same time, but 248 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,400 in the same period of time, because I could study energy 249 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,280 markets in Munich because I knew I liked it and you know, I was 250 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:21,840 still in university, so I could do that. 251 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,360 So I really encourage people to to double down on what they feel 252 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,360 they like. And it was much easier for me to 253 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,760 to choose Tesla because I knew that was a sector. 254 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,560 So when I entered Tesla, the kind of same thing happened. 255 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:38,280 So I started in an operational logistics role, which I really 256 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:43,080 liked, but not like LOF. Just to give some context, Tesla 257 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,080 produces these big batteries, they're called Megapacks. 258 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:52,040 So it's like big fields of battery storage, utility scale 259 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,560 basically. And I was working to bring 260 00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:58,480 basically logistic wise those megapacks from America to the 261 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,800 EU. And then an opportunity came 262 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,560 basically one of the team members left very senior 263 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:09,160 actually, and she was working more on the energy trading side. 264 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,720 So these batteries trade energy with the grid when they are 265 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,640 operating and you know, there was no one available. 266 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,720 I was an intern at the time. I said I can take some of that 267 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,360 over, of course with some support. 268 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,000 But that's, that was my first interaction with energy markets 269 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,000 and energy trading and finance somehow. 270 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,800 And I just found I loved that completely and I just stayed 271 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,920 there. So when the internship finished 272 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,040 again, I did the same thing. I said, what are the things I 273 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:38,400 liked? What are the things I didn't 274 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,440 like? And I started for the first time 275 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,640 having a list of what are the things I don't want to 276 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,960 compromise on, you know, so there are things you can give 277 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,360 and leave, but there are things you really don't want to 278 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,920 compromise on. And for me, that was first. 279 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,400 I want to have an impact. Again, I'm not going to work in 280 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,280 a sector when I don't feel like I'm having an impact, which 281 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,800 means both in my case was also like sustainability wise, but it 282 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,560 can really just mean also work on projects that, you know, I 283 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,960 can see live and, and make difference in general in our 284 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,120 society. It doesn't have to be 285 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,040 sustainability related. For me, it was, so I want to 286 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,480 have an impact. I want to work in the energy 287 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,240 sector, energy transition sector. 288 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,280 I want to have and that was the Third Point, a really quant job. 289 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,600 Again, what I was doing was more quantum the first time, but not 290 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:24,920 enough. I want more numbers. 291 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,920 I want to think for things. And the last one, which is what 292 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,440 I mentioned maybe before is in Tesla. 293 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,520 It was a great company, but it was 1 product, you know, only 294 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,360 Megapacks for Tesla. And I felt like I wanted to see 295 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,200 more, more projects, more product, more companies. 296 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,200 And through a little bit of research and speaking to people 297 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,800 and probably we'll get there through the conversation, I 298 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,360 realized finance can could, could give me that, that edge 299 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,840 basically that that what I was looking for was there. 300 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,320 And so that's basically how I I made the switch. 301 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:03,040 And when I enter UBS in the sustainable investing practice 302 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,160 in private markets, in infrastructure, I kept on that 303 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,960 thinking and still I do today. So as I took every rotation, 304 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,880 I'll just make a very practical example, infrastructure equity, 305 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,080 I loved it, but I felt like I missed the depth part of it. 306 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,960 I didn't know how depth worked. And that's why my third rotation 307 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,560 was in leverage finance and structure finance, which 308 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,960 basically lend to this project. So it's not equity, but it's the 309 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,760 debt side of it. And now I feel more complete. 310 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,080 So in general, it was a combination of really trying to 311 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:40,520 complete myself and really stay authentic and true on the things 312 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,160 I didn't want to compromise on. And you know, to the students 313 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,600 listening to this, I'm not saying it's not scary. 314 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,320 It is super scary as you're there, especially if you're the 315 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,920 first one, especially if you don't have anyone in front of 316 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,960 you saying this is going to work, but this is going to work. 317 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,920 Like I know when you're there, you think I was thinking, and 318 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,560 you can ask my friends, like what if I'm not good at this? 319 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:05,440 What if finance is not for me? Or you know, as an industrial 320 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,160 engineer student, you really feel like you only have one 321 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,599 option after your master studies, which is consulting. 322 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:13,200 Like everyone just goes in consulting. 323 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,520 And I know it's scary to take another Rd. but it's going to 324 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,160 pay off, I assure you. And not only in the long term, I 325 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,440 think really also in the short term because you're just going 326 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,319 to get where you want much faster. 327 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,480 And I think a lot of people spend time working for their CVS 328 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,960 to get there, but they don't know what there is, they don't 329 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,920 know what they want. So really spending that time 330 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,960 thinking what you want and then you can think how you get there 331 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,080 really pays off. And it's going to build that 332 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:43,640 confidence that you're speaking about. 333 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,240 Like the confidence I have now, it's not the confidence I had 334 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,160 2-3 years ago. Because every step you take, 335 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,320 you're like, what? It worked out. 336 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,560 I actually loved it and you also enjoy the journey by the way, in 337 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,000 between because every step you take, you take it very 338 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,640 consciously and because you want it, not because someone told you 339 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,600 to do so. And really builds that 340 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,520 confidence. And it helps you build your 341 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:11,160 story, which I think is a super underrated and underestimated 342 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,440 skill that you need to have, but really build building your 343 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,040 story, which is an authentic one. 344 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,040 It's not built up. It's really like your own, 345 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,000 really gives you an edge. Also in interviews, like very 346 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,280 practically, I was told this when I got into UBS, like you 347 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,840 just had a good story, right? It's, it's not made-up, it's 348 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,560 authentic. And and that's going to really 349 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,080 give you an edge. And the story you built is a 350 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,080 combination of, yeah, your journey, but also coming up with 351 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,000 that list of things you don't want to compromise on, which 352 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,320 makes your red thread through, yeah, your journey. 353 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,680 Yeah, such great advice. And actually, what really 354 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,800 resonated there was when you, you know, you're talking about, 355 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,880 you need almost experience to figure things out and figure 356 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,200 yourself out. And yeah, a lot, so many 357 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,440 students I interact with just have this preconceived idea and 358 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:05,040 they are always quite, almost restricted in the narrowness of 359 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,360 their view thinking, right? I've got to make the right 360 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:11,040 decision from the beginning, and that's going to define me for 361 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,360 the rest of my career. But you're absolutely right. 362 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,120 How do you even know really until you've had these genuine 363 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:18,920 experiences? Well, look, we covered quite a 364 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,880 lot there. So I'm, I'm quite, quite keen to 365 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,200 move on to some of the things that would be more specific for 366 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,080 particularly STEM students because we, we encounter and 367 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,880 work with a lot of them. And there is this increasing 368 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,680 interest of financial institutions for people of that 369 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,080 discipline. I guess for those students like 370 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,840 yourself, they're not always thinking finance 1st. 371 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,680 And so I guess a question to start with that having spoken to 372 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,080 you before, you were in good parts self-taught somewhat when 373 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,280 it came to finance. And you mentioned listening to 374 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,960 podcasts and kind of taking it upon yourself to be proactive 375 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,000 with your own learning. I just wondered the biggest 376 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,200 knowledge gaps that you had to bridge then when you came into 377 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,240 finance because I, I guess it can be quite intimidating for 378 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,800 someone who's not an econ student and then kind of 379 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,880 practical advice that people could take. 380 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,040 When entering a a completely new industry as well. 381 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,560 Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. So yes, also to to to give some 382 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,440 reassurance to the people listening to this. 383 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,680 Like when I started thinking about finance, I couldn't 384 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,320 distinguish UBS from a BlackRock. 385 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,720 I didn't know the difference between public markets and 386 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,040 private markets. So you really can get there. 387 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,200 So this is for the people listening. 388 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,560 In my case, I think the biggest knowledge gap at the beginning 389 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,440 for the way I think. So I'd really like to have a big 390 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,000 the big picture first. I really like to understand how 391 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,760 you know the system works. And that was just really blurry 392 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,040 to me. I was from from someone that 393 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,600 doesn't study finance or it's not really interested into it 394 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,280 since the beginning. I think it can get very abstract 395 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,240 very easily. So you really don't know who the 396 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,760 players are, what's exactly going on with, you know, the 397 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,000 money in the system. And that took me probably the 398 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,040 biggest part of my time. But when I had that figured out, 399 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,280 everything was much easier. Again, probably that's my way of 400 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,760 reasoning and thinking for things. 401 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,600 But getting first the big picture and then moving on to 402 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,520 basic financial concepts, that's a gap I had. 403 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,480 So from, you know, time value of money, of course, I've seen a 404 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,800 bit of accounting and, and all of that as I was going through 405 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:35,120 my management engineering university path, but, but it was 406 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,200 not the same thing. So you really need to, it's not 407 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,920 only you understand it, it's you, you master it, you own it. 408 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,120 So that took me quite a while. And all those concepts like also 409 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:46,280 on other asset classes like bonds and why the price of bonds 410 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,320 move with interest rate. All of that, all of that was 411 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,680 actually during my Tokyo exchange. 412 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,560 And as you mentioned, I just was very curious in it. 413 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,160 I just was again, kind of sick, kind of sick of not 414 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,040 understanding how the whole system worked. 415 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,840 And I started listening to podcasts and reading journals 416 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,120 and you need to be very selective with it. 417 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,120 So there is so much information out there. 418 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,520 So I spent some time selecting what I thought was the podcast I 419 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,280 just liked not even they were good. 420 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,000 I liked them. I liked listening to them 421 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,680 spending my nights, you know, with my bike and just listening 422 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,520 to that. You need to enjoy the process of 423 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,840 learning. And by the way, that's, that's a 424 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,000 very, very good way to understand if you like finance 425 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,120 or not. If you spend, you know, entire 426 00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:29,760 days and hours informing yourself and you like the 427 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,480 process, that's, that's an easy choice. 428 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,680 If you just cannot listen to that stuff, that's probably not 429 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,080 your journey. It's OK, right. 430 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,480 In my case, it was something I really like. 431 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,640 I was lucky enough to be able to choose some uni courses there in 432 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,360 Tokyo. That helped me a little bit. 433 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,360 So that was a bit my process before the interviews. 434 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,800 And then of course, when you, you need to be a strategic with 435 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,160 your preparation of the interview. 436 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:56,960 I was, you know, applying for private markets. 437 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,480 So of course, I built more knowledge around that. 438 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,720 And then the whole journey continued as I started with UBS, 439 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,920 of course. And by the way, I really 440 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,560 recommend people if they can, especially STEM students to go 441 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,520 on a graduate program journey because you can rotate. 442 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,320 It's OK. Again, if you don't have it all 443 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,760 figured out from day one. I did not. 444 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,480 I had a gut feeling for what I liked and then as I was in, I 445 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,480 could rotate in three different teams, see different part of the 446 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,200 bank and that really complements your knowledge. 447 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,920 And I took on the CFA level 1 exam. 448 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:34,160 So of course, it was like one year and a half or two of an 449 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:41,360 intense financial, you know, study and, and just building up 450 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,000 my knowledge. It took quite a while, but it's, 451 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,440 it's it you can do it. Basically, you can do it. 452 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,880 And if I can give some advice to that might be a bit more 453 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,360 structured maybe. I think it's a combination of 454 00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:56,600 hard skills and soft skills. So on the hard skills side, as I 455 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,920 said, I think it's it's three steps, right? 456 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,520 First one, you understand the big picture, depends on how your 457 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,480 mind works. But I think it's better to start 458 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,440 top down and then you go into the details because finance can 459 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,760 get very much into the details. So start from the big picture, 460 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,840 understand how the ecosystem works, and then you move on a 461 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,000 little bit more in detail and you understand the basics, the 462 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,480 need to know. So I need to know some basic 463 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,200 concepts. You cannot be in the financial 464 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,400 industry, even if you are in private equity. 465 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,560 You need to know what bonds are and how they work, for example, 466 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,400 just just one example. And then once you have that 467 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:33,320 basic knowledge of everything, you move on and you move on to 468 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,360 the in depth knowledge. But that's only for your area of 469 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:39,320 interest. So in my case, it was private 470 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,480 markets or specifically infrastructure. 471 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,240 And then with time you realize what you really need to know, 472 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,240 what you need to master. And that requires so much time, 473 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,760 much more than you know getting to the basic knowledge. 474 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,760 So it's OK that it's a process with time, but I would say these 475 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,880 are the three layers of knowledge you need, you need to 476 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,280 you need to gain. And on the soft skills side, the 477 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:06,200 1st and most important thing is keeping a growth mindset. 478 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,880 Literally that was probably the biggest switch I had in every 479 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,200 pivot I did through through my life. 480 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,000 You need to be ready to look like the idiot in the room. 481 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,200 It's OK like you don't, you don't know you come from a 482 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,320 different background and it's OK not to know. 483 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,080 You need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. 484 00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,880 And you know, and I said growth mindset, there is this, this, 485 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,840 this great book about the sorry, the comparison between growth 486 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,800 mindset and a fixed mindset. And I, I was, I used to be very 487 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,960 much in a fixed mindset. So you know it all. 488 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:43,000 You kind of look like an idiot. You, you, you need to be on top 489 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,800 of everything the whole time. But that creates a fear of 490 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:51,040 failure that really keep holds you back in learning more and, 491 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,720 and, and it can, can be really detrimental throughout your, 492 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,360 your career and your life in general. 493 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,760 It's not only career wise with the growth mindset, you just let 494 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:04,880 go of that fear and you just, you're open to learn to not to 495 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,040 know and also seek advice and help. 496 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,080 That's what I did a lot. Maybe, you know, be strategic 497 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:11,800 about it. Don't, don't ask your, you know, 498 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,000 managing director for a concept you should know, but go to your 499 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,680 peer and ask. Look, that's what I did when I 500 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,400 started with UBS. I, I had my circle of graduates 501 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,960 and I said, look, guys, there are certain things I really 502 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,480 don't understand. Can we sit down? 503 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,440 And you woke me for it. And that's how you literally get 504 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,080 very, very fast to the same level where they are. 505 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,880 Not only that, but you come with a different background. 506 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,400 So you are actually, you have a match. 507 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,360 You're much more complete in in that sense. 508 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,280 So growth mindset is, is the enabler just for your life in 509 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,360 general, I think, but especially career wise. 510 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,640 Second, you need diligence and hard work. 511 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,080 I'm not going to lie about this. You need a lot of hours to go 512 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:50,680 for stuff. And as I said, that's also a 513 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,520 good way to understand if you like it or not. 514 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,440 Again, be selective, be strategic, Don't Start learning 515 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,400 everything of everything. But once you have the big 516 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,880 picture, you just go, OK, this is what I should know. 517 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,000 These are the websites I really like. 518 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,600 These are the postcards I really like. 519 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,800 Give yourself time. Don't think that in a month 520 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,440 you're going to be a finance savvy. 521 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,240 It's not going to happen. But you know, I can say one year 522 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,440 and a half, two years, I feel quite confident at the with the 523 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,640 level I am at right now. So it's not even like a 10 years 524 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:21,960 journey. Of course it's a lifetime 525 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,440 journey, but you know, to build the basic blocks, you can do it 526 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,680 basically. And the last piece is again, on 527 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,080 the sub skills side, speak to people. 528 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,640 It's not only networking, but really speak to people because 529 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,160 people are going to give you a real sense of what they're doing 530 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,760 and where they are in the system. 531 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,680 Again, you're going to build puzzle like your your little 532 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,560 puzzle like this. And I spoke, you know, to people 533 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,040 in fields that right now, I know they really don't, they're not 534 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,880 done for me. Like it's a bond, but I spoke to 535 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,320 a lot of people because I thought maybe, you know, maybe 536 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,600 that that can be for me. I spoke to a person in that 537 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,360 field and I said, OK, that's this is all my stuff. 538 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,280 And you don't need to go for an interview to realize that you 539 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,360 just speak with someone. And I mean, of course, people 540 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:10,280 then can also open for you opportunities. 541 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,960 That's the main probably goal of networking, but it's not the 542 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,640 only one. Sometimes it's just about 543 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,840 building that knowledge and, and people can really help you with 544 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,200 that. If you're lucky like I was, you 545 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,880 can also have your circle of beers during uni or during, you 546 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,680 know, your graduate programs or when you work to, to also be in 547 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,880 that knowledge together. I would say yeah, as a whole, 548 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,840 these are the advices I would give probably. 549 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,480 Yeah, your your example there of the growth versus fixed mindset. 550 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,280 I think there's a lot of anxiety and fear, particularly when you 551 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,000 talk about large financial institutions, so big investment 552 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,360 banks that you have to know all the answers. 553 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,800 And I guess you're kind of semi groomed that way to get through 554 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,440 the application process. You know, you should notice 555 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,920 basics about derivatives, you should know what's going on in 556 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,920 global macro. But I, I guess then my question 557 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,000 is more the culture, say the culture at UBS then. 558 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,360 So is it cultivating an ability to be able to have to question 559 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,360 things or to be able to, you know, within reason, obviously 560 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,400 to be able to take risk or to fail to make decisions to ask 561 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,760 questions? Is that, is that the atmosphere 562 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,640 just to kind of, I guess, going demystify the myth of what 563 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,480 investment banking is like as an industry more more broadly? 564 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,200 Yes, yeah. The answer to that is, is yes. 565 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,400 And I think this has, you know it, it might have changed with 566 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,120 time. I'm not sure how it was like 567 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,560 some years ago, but I think without like it's critical to 568 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,200 UBS and to all other companies in my opinion to have that 569 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,240 because once you lose that a lot of potential in people and you 570 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,480 just lose people that might have a great potential and just kind 571 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,160 of express it because they are this fear of failure. 572 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,480 So in my case, yes, it's, it's the case and it really helps. 573 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,880 And I really also again, it's about being strategic, right? 574 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,160 You, as you said, it's within reason. 575 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,200 So you need to understand when is the right time to make a 576 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,680 question. But sometimes it really takes 577 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,400 just to stall and you ignore your ego for a second and say, I 578 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,400 said this quite a lot of times in calls like, can we stop there 579 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:15,640 for a second? Sorry. 580 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,680 I might, you know, without the sorry, actually I should know 581 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,040 this. But can you help me refresh that 582 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,200 for a second? Like there are ways that you can 583 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,000 also rephrase the simple, I don't know. 584 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,320 Or it's, it's much better to take, you know, take a step 585 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,280 forward and say, you know, can you help me figure that out 586 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,120 rather than say, yes, I got this, leave it to me. 587 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,960 And then you just as I did also a couple of times, really don't 588 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,960 recommend because then you're just left with yourself and you 589 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,720 just don't know stuff and you don't believe her, you know. 590 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,120 So I really suggest find yourself an organization that 591 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,360 reason this way and also ask this question in interviews. 592 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,800 You guys are allowed to ask questions in interviews and you 593 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,560 can say, you know, what's, what's the approach of UBS or 594 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,400 whatever is the other bank towards this topic? 595 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,280 Like what is, how is failure treated? 596 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,760 And I, I think there is a lot of importance associated to it 597 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,040 finally from all of these kind of organizations. 598 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,400 And I think it really helps because that's the only way that 599 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,680 people really grow and, and learn through time because they 600 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,800 are not held back by this fear of, of just failing, right? 601 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,440 And, and I think it's, I was lucky enough with all of my 602 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,840 organizations, all of these growth mindset actually started 603 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,400 with, with Microsoft back in the days. 604 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:37,320 They really made this, they really made of this the, the 605 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,360 pivotal point of their culture. If you, if you look at, if you 606 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,240 look at their share price, when they changed CEO, when Satya 607 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,720 Nadella now came in some years ago, now the share price 608 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,800 started, you know, to go very up right now not but, but it really 609 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,600 went up from what it was. And when I was at Microsoft, 610 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,320 they told me this was the reason why, you know, it's all about 611 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,400 culture that he brought in this topic of growth mindset versus 612 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,640 fixed mindset. And people felt OK making 613 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,440 mistakes and, and asking questions and asking for help. 614 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,520 And that really can have a huge impact also profitability wise, 615 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,000 also share price wise, it's not only, you know, to make people 616 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,800 feel better, it's, it's much more than that. 617 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,240 So if you go and read Microsoft story, it's really focused on 618 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:24,920 this. And I think every organization 619 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,800 sure, really, yeah, focus on these as part of their culture. 620 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,640 So so just to finish. On this, this segment of the 621 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,000 conversation, one thing is that, as I said, a lot of STEM 622 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,000 students listen to this this podcast. 623 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,000 And I was just wondering, was there anything that you had 624 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,360 learnt from that background that actually surprised you? 625 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,600 And you were like, ah, perhaps I actually have an edge. 626 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,120 So the econ students who might not have done this, I've 627 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,840 actually done this before. And actually it's a useful asset 628 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,480 to have. Absolutely. 629 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,760 And. Again, I really want the STEM 630 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,840 students here listening to to be reassured with this look, a STEM 631 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,840 background is really an easy sell. 632 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,880 It's an easy sell. So they want you 100%. 633 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,000 Don't be afraid of that. It's you that need to want them, 634 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,880 but they really want you. When I say they, I mean, you 635 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,880 know, interviewers and financial institutions because you bring 636 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,560 to the table. Well, first a different 637 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,280 perspective. But apart from that, some key 638 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,280 skills that you really need in the industry in this industry 639 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,320 first is the logical thinking. And I was told it as a feedback 640 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,080 many times. So it's you have because of your 641 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,240 stand background, especially engineering, but I'm sure it's 642 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,000 the same in, you know, physics and chemistry and all of that. 643 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,000 You have this logical way of thinking, structured way of 644 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,680 thinking of breaking down problems, you know, 123 in in 645 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,360 sub sub problems and you solve all of them in a logical manner 646 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,800 from A to B, from East to C and then so on. 647 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,440 And if you're then also able to communicate to people in the 648 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,600 same structured and logical way, then you got it all right? 649 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,320 So it's a way of thinking you're very complete if you're also 650 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,400 able to communicate that way of thinking. 651 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,120 And that's extremely appreciated. 652 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,000 That's point #1 because it's a problem solving approach, right? 653 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,440 Second is your are just good with numbers normally. 654 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,239 And they love that. It's not only about being good 655 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,560 with Excel, it's being able to interpret numbers to you have a 656 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,280 lot of numbers and you just make sense of them. 657 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,560 You're you just choose the three, four main numbers that 658 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,000 can help you with the decision making. 659 00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:32,960 And they just love that to be honest. 660 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,560 And you just really need it, especially where I am. 661 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,360 But I think honestly everywhere in the financial industry, you 662 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,120 need to be good at numbers to be able to work with numbers, to 663 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,920 interpret numbers, to communicate numbers again. 664 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,560 So probably the communication pieces is key. 665 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,000 And maybe it's not obvious from a step background, but if you 666 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,639 work on that, you have all the tools then to to have an edge. 667 00:34:55,159 --> 00:35:00,200 Another element is you are acquainted most probably with 668 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,560 anything IT related from coding to you know, Python, you know 669 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,840 what Power BI is, what a visualization data tool is, and 670 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,040 again, they just really need that. 671 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,640 I ended up leading projects that I didn't want to lead just 672 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,800 because I was the only one, you know, having an understanding of 673 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,240 what Power BI was or how can you work with that or how is the 674 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:28,760 data flows of the data system working because a lot of people 675 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,360 don't have that understanding. And as also probably being part 676 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,120 of this generation, we are just more acquainted with all of this 677 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,400 kind of stuff. And plus on top of that, you 678 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,800 also did it in your studies and you can just resell that very 679 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,160 easily. I sold a lot of my, you know, 680 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,920 coding skills, even if I don't code anymore in my daily life in 681 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,680 like in my daily job, I did a Tesla, but not anymore now. 682 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,840 But still they, they like that you can understand and you can 683 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:59,360 be the person in between basically the coder and the 684 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,360 business because you understand both parts and, and that's 685 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,080 really an edge that you can easily sell, let's say. 686 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,240 Then another one is your technical knowledge, especially 687 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,200 in this case for where I am right now. 688 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,240 So infrastructure, everything that is real and concrete 689 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:20,520 related, but also specifically specific industries from, you 690 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:21,800 know, logistics and distribution. 691 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,760 I mean, having that technical understanding of, I don't know 692 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,200 how energy markets work, I would an electrical system works or I, 693 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,600 I think not a lot of economics or financial people have that 694 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,560 and, and that really helps, especially if you're targeting, 695 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,640 you know, one of those industries or one of those 696 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,080 sectors. So that really, really helps. 697 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,840 And finally what I mentioned at the beginning, you just bring in 698 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,680 a different perspective. You are new to the system. 699 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,520 You never really studied financial systems before. 700 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,040 So you can bring in new ideas. Even your what you think are 701 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,960 stupid questions are actually very good questions. 702 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,960 And that some people just cannot see, not because there's not 703 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,920 because they're stupid, but because they have been in the 704 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,160 industry for 20 years. And sometimes you just cannot 705 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,400 see things clearly anymore. And you bring in that 706 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,040 perspective. You challenge that, that piece 707 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,960 that I mentioned at the beginning of questioning 708 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,400 everything. Please try to have that and 709 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,200 don't be afraid to ask questions because you're really going to 710 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,400 make a difference and you're going to have an edge. 711 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,440 So play with all these cards in your interviews because it's 712 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:29,440 really going to give you an edge. 713 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,240 Also with a lot of people that studied finance and and all of 714 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:34,360 that, I'm sure that's going to be. 715 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,400 Such reassuring words to to so many and it makes a great deal 716 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,120 of sense. And one of the things you 717 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,320 mentioned earlier was that through, I think it was even 718 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,840 your studies, you were saying you went to Japan, I know you 719 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,880 went Italy, Germany, you're in, you know, Switzerland, all these 720 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,320 different places. I wondered whether I could just 721 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:56,040 touch on that as to from a perhaps more personal or 722 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,560 professional perspective, like what did experiencing different 723 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,520 geographies, different cultures, what has that given you? 724 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,920 Because I think a lot of people will consider that in terms of 725 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:11,560 potential career choices early in their career, 100% no. 726 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,440 And. That's that's a critical point, 727 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,480 especially in my life. But in general, it's something I 728 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,200 try to recommend to everyone. Yes, it changed me a lot. 729 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,120 It shaped me so much as a person. 730 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:23,280 Both. Yeah. 731 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,800 On a personal level, professionally, academically, 732 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,600 everything. I just cannot express how much 733 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,160 it enriched me in general. And that's because of several 734 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,880 things. First and foremost is the people 735 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,320 you meet. So it's both people that then 736 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,000 stay in your life. So maybe friends and, and 737 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,520 colleagues and all of that. But I also mean it in terms of 738 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,000 people you meet in your, you know, in the streets or in the 739 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,600 supermarket. And they just have a different 740 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,600 way of thinking. They have a different way of 741 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,680 seeing the world. And I mean, of course, the more 742 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,880 you go far away, the easier it's for that to happen. 743 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,960 Like Japan was the extreme case of that. 744 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,200 But I won't, you know, I'm Italian and also staying in the 745 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,000 European Union. That process happened of just 746 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:10,000 being able to think, to see things in a bigger way, in a 747 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,200 different way, change perspectives, your way of 748 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,240 thinking changes and that that just enriches you so much. 749 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:20,680 That's just because of the people you meet and the way they 750 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,400 reason and the inputs they give you. 751 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,160 And sometimes you don't elaborate on the inputs straight 752 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,000 away. And that's why they're, you 753 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,720 know, thinking for things and self-awareness piece really 754 00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:32,840 helps because you need to spend time reflecting back on your 755 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,440 experiences and say, OK, what what I learned from all of these 756 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,480 people because potentially, and I really believe this, you can 757 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,840 learn a lot from every person you meet every day. 758 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,760 Doesn't matter if it's at work or as I said, at the 759 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,200 supermarket, You know, the way you communicate with people and 760 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,600 what people transmits, you can, can really change you as a 761 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,480 person if you again, are selected with the inputs you 762 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,800 receive. So people are definitely the 763 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,840 first point. 2nd is a thing of cultures, right? 764 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,160 It's quite related. But when you change culture, 765 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,040 when you change habits, you really learn new ways of doing 766 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,000 things. It might be work, it might be 767 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,760 their perception of your own self, it might be sport, it 768 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,800 might be whatever. But if you're confined in your 769 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,120 own, you know, bubble of where you've grown and. 770 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,480 Your circle and it's just very different. 771 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,840 It's just very difficult to gain your perspectives and to do 772 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,560 things a different way. So as I went through, you know, 773 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,240 Italy and then Germany and then Japan and I've been to London a 774 00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:39,640 little bit. Every person has, you know, 775 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,760 different ways of doing things. Every culture has its own way of 776 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,280 doing things and you just absorb that even without wanting to, 777 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,880 but but you do that and that really enriches you. 778 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:55,000 Again, Third Point is definitely the adaptability. 779 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,760 And you, you just become very good at learning fast how to 780 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,800 live in a new country and that learning process that then you 781 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,280 have it, you know, for your daily life. 782 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,280 Then you also adapt it to when you learn a concept or you learn 783 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,000 a project, you're just very flexible with everything. 784 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,120 You know, The first time might be tough. 785 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,960 It was the second stuffer. Sorry, it's, it's a little bit 786 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,280 tough. And the more you go on, the more 787 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,640 it becomes natural. When I move to Switzerland now, 788 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,120 to Zurich for Ubis, it was really smooth because I did this 789 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,200 like so many Times Now that I just learned to do that quick, 790 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,120 to do that without any pain and to actually enjoy the process in 791 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,800 between. And this adaptability, 792 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,520 flexibility, you can really use it then in your everyday life, 793 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,280 in your job. It really gives you an edge 794 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,720 again. And another point is 795 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,120 communication and you're just empathy with people. 796 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,520 I mean, of course, you can also learn languages in between. 797 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,400 That's a big plus. In my case, I learned 2 798 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,920 languages through my, you know, experiences without English, so 799 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,680 excluding English. So that is in general very 800 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,440 useful in, in my case. I mean, I really like languages, 801 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,400 so that's me. But it doesn't mean you need to 802 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,960 learn a language. That's a plus. 803 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,280 But in general, you just learn to communicate with different 804 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,920 people, with different cultures, even when you don't understand 805 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,400 yourself and with, with them. I mean, and that can happen, 806 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,240 especially in Japan, it was a struggle. 807 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,280 It really was when you don't have, you know, they don't speak 808 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,200 English and it's just very difficult, but you still find a 809 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:28,640 way to understand each other, to find common ground and to build 810 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,880 from there. I think this, it really helps my 811 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,160 interpersonal skills, communication skills and, and, 812 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,040 and all of that without a single day on a book like this was all 813 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,240 daily interaction with people on the streets basically. 814 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,520 So probably all of these elements all together. 815 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,160 And yeah, just a different perspective and how much 816 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,640 everything enriches you so much. And honestly, I wouldn't be here 817 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,600 today, I'm sure, without all of these experiences, even just the 818 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,360 pivot to finance. And this is a very, you know, 819 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,680 practical example. It happened because as I was in 820 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,280 Tokyo, I met two people that I didn't know that was studying 821 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,600 with me. And I was, you know, looking to 822 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,440 apply into consulting and all of that. 823 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,880 And I was confronting with them and they said, but why don't you 824 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,920 look into finance, like if you like all of this. 825 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,480 And I was like, yeah, yeah, you know, might make sense, but I 826 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,000 never studied this. But one of these people, one of 827 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,360 these persons and studied the same that I did, so industrial 828 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,000 engineering, just in a different year. 829 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,720 So I knew through her that this was possible. 830 00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:34,920 And they, I just sit down with them, got a little bit of 831 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,480 learning from them and that really helped me then, you know, 832 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,120 starting then to learn on my own. 833 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,120 But it didn't start from me only. 834 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,320 It was because of the interaction with other people 835 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,760 and how excited they were about this industry and what was 836 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,160 possible. And they just showed me there 837 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,760 was another way. They helped me think outside of 838 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,000 the box in a way. So, and this came just from my 839 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,400 experience abroad. Basically, I just love the. 840 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,520 The continuity through your journey of just being curious 841 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,920 the whole time and how that such like a catalyst for moving 842 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,720 forward and self improvement and new new experiences, new options 843 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,560 as such such a good kind of concept. 844 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,880 And you know, one of the things I was going to ask, just as 845 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,760 you're explaining, just because I know a lot of students think 846 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,240 this way, but I think I already know the answer. 847 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:25,760 But I'd like to get your take. And this is the idea that if I'm 848 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,360 a student and I've gone from consulting to tech to finance, 849 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,760 I've gone from this country to that country, they get nervous 850 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,880 that, oh, someone might look at me as a candidate and go, you 851 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,320 don't really look like you've found a landing zone yet. 852 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,280 Now, I'm assuming this is all down to how you explain and 853 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,960 articulate your journey of self exploration and development as 854 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,480 you've arrived at this point. Am I right in that assumption? 855 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,080 And, and how can I guess people can use this? 856 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,920 They've got to see it as a strength, not a weakness, right? 857 00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:02,880 Absolutely. 100% And this boils down again to that 858 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,880 self-awareness piece. And of course you, I mean you 859 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,800 look like you don't know what you're doing. 860 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,760 If you don't know what you're doing, like if you're going 861 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,760 randomly from one piece to the other and you cannot explain why 862 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,240 or what, not even what you did, but why you did that, then 863 00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:20,520 that's a problem. That's a weakness, but it's a 864 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,440 strength. When you figure it out on the 865 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,280 way you build 1 block after the other. 866 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,360 And as we said before, you build your own story around it and you 867 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:31,640 need time to figure out your story. 868 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,520 Like maybe it's not obvious, not even to you. 869 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,160 But as you look back, you know, retrospectively, you're like, uh 870 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,040 huh. I mean, I did this because of 871 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,600 this. And you really build your own 872 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,640 red thread. As I said at the beginning that 873 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,080 you can, I mean, it's good for yourself because it really 874 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,320 builds up that self-awareness and that confidence, but it's 875 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:51,720 also very good to sell to someone. 876 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,480 So the way I went in every interview was, you know, I did 877 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,360 this and this and that because of that. 878 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,120 Not like a shopping list, but building up my story. 879 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,040 And I always ended with, and that's why I'm here. 880 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,240 So you need to guide them through your journey and say, I 881 00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:10,840 learned this, this and that. I realized this, this and that. 882 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,160 And that's why I'm here today because I think you are the 883 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,040 perfect next step for this kind of journey. 884 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,760 So yeah, if you have your story, you can tell it well, and it's 885 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,960 an authentic one. It's not made-up. 886 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,480 Then it's a real strength. And again, it's OK if you don't 887 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,480 have it all figured out the first time, not the second. 888 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,320 Maybe you do a couple of experiences just because they're 889 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,680 good firms. That's totally OK. 890 00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:36,920 But then capitalize on those learnings and choose your third 891 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,160 or fourth step in a rationalized way, if you see what I mean. 892 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,120 I think what's. So refreshing listening to you 893 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:47,080 in this whole conversation is that even though you're still, 894 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,200 you know, early in your career, so to speak, it's almost like 895 00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,640 you sound so much higher in your conviction of the clarity of who 896 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,760 you are, what you want, you know, where you're heading. 897 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,280 But that's a byproduct, I think of because of the experiences 898 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,280 that you've had. Whereas a lot of people just 899 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,160 don't give themselves the opportunity to have the 900 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,080 experiences. And it takes just so much longer 901 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,960 to get to that point of realization and self discovery. 902 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,120 So yeah, it's amazing. Final, final sections, then 903 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,160 maybe some practical tips and particularly again, speaking to 904 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,160 the the STEM students, but I guess more broadly, and that is 905 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,680 for one for young people in STEM who are curious about finance. 906 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,280 What do you think is the best place to start? 907 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,800 I think you said it earlier, it's a little bit overwhelming 908 00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,920 at the beginning and you were saying about very specific 909 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,680 selection of of sources. So a little bit more on that. 910 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,400 And then also people want to explore infrastructure and 911 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,320 sustainable finance. I I guessing that that's not as 912 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:50,160 heavy as enriched a database as accessible on the Internet as 913 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,480 say traditional investment banking or trading. 914 00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,800 So yeah, those two things, if you have any tips on that would 915 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,640 be great. Of course, of course, so on the 916 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,720 first one to STEM students, but but in general, as I said, I 917 00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:09,280 think it first starts with self-awareness and get a bit of 918 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,200 direction. So if you're interested into 919 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,160 finance, why is that? You must have a gut feeling for 920 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,080 something, right? So first, really things think 921 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,000 through for like your previous experiences, if you have any, or 922 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,240 maybe you just studied so far, what captured your interest, 923 00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:28,040 what you know what, what is the direction you might be heading 924 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:29,600 to? Not in terms of role or 925 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,000 institution, Just be more generic with that. 926 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,320 You know, that list of things. I don't want to compromise on 927 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,120 things I would really like to do that doesn't mean to it doesn't 928 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,400 have to be a role. It's just a list of things very 929 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,560 generic. But that should point you a 930 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,320 little bit. You know that somehow. 931 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:50,280 So first get the direction. Then second piece is understand 932 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,960 what you need to understand. So understand what you need to 933 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,040 know. All those building blocks that 934 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:56,960 we said before. First you get the big picture. 935 00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,040 And I know as a STEM student, it is intimidating at the 936 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:04,080 beginning, but literally it's just all about going in the 937 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,240 Internet and look for, you know, how the financial system works 938 00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:09,120 and how is the, what are the players? 939 00:49:09,240 --> 00:49:11,080 How is the ecosystem. It's going to take you a couple 940 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:12,960 of days just to have you the big picture. 941 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,320 And then you start doubling down in the things you need to know 942 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,080 as basic concepts. Yeah, some, you know, financial 943 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:22,760 basic concepts you, you might know. 944 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,720 And then you start targeting. You need to be selective with 945 00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:29,880 things. So you understood how the big 946 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,680 picture is, what are the basic knowledge you need to have and 947 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,160 then you start targeting. In my case, let's say you go 948 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,800 with, OK, I really like private markets, I really like infra. 949 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,680 How do I get more knowledge about it or how do I even get 950 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,360 into that? How do I manage to get a first 951 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,360 experience? There is a combination of 952 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,080 things, as we said, first is the knowledge build up on those 953 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,600 skills. If you know that, you know, you 954 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:56,960 might need a bit of modelling skills, It doesn't mean you need 955 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,160 to be super good at it before you go for an interview, but at 956 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,480 least having a bit of accounting knowledge, know what a model is. 957 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,520 You know, it's, it's, it's step by step. 958 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,360 That's the first piece. So understand what you need to 959 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,440 understand and build up that knowledge. 960 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:15,840 And then again, speak with people network, but really do 961 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,480 both in your university with, you know, linking is a great, 962 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,400 great tool, but just speak to people as much as you can, 963 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,640 especially if you're targeting, you know, a specific segment or 964 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,800 a specific sector. Really try to reach out to those 965 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,800 people and ask them very specific questions. 966 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,960 And this is going to, yeah, at least first make you understand 967 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,800 if that's really for you or not, or, you know, you might try it 968 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,120 out. And then to get to have the 969 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,960 experience also leverage, as we said, oldest kids that you 970 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,160 already have and in combination with all that you're learning, 971 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,520 they can really help you through the interview process and, and, 972 00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:52,040 and to get to a first experience. 973 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,680 And don't settle for the first experience. 974 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,760 I think, I mean, in a way you need to be selective, but also 975 00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,280 probably you need to pick up on whatever opportunity you get. 976 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,880 So don't get me wrong there. You don't need to, you know, be 977 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,000 too picky and say, Oh, no, this I don't like or this it's not 978 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,800 for me. I mean, yes, but until a certain 979 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,280 point, I think until it's an internship or even a graded 980 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,120 program, just get a foot in the door. 981 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:21,480 Honestly, just get there. And then from there again with 982 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:25,800 this story about yourself and, and building up those skills 983 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,120 with time, with time, you will realize which skills you need to 984 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,840 make the jump. It's much, much, much easier 985 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,600 when you're already with one foot in the door and you kind of 986 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,400 pivot yourself within the industry or within the 987 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:39,200 organization rather than you figure it all out from the 988 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:40,840 outside. And then you need to get that 989 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,120 role that is very difficult because it's also a competitive 990 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,960 industry and you know, it, it, it, it might be a little bit 991 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,840 more difficult. So take on the opportunity, 992 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,720 especially internships, go for graduate programs where you can 993 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,520 build up that knowledge, that experience, reflect on that, 994 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,560 take time to reflect on that and then move on to the next step in 995 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,960 a more conscious way and in a little bit more of a selective 996 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,200 way. That's probably the advice. 997 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,280 And I think I answered also the second question all together. 998 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:12,600 So this is for infra and private equity in general when you 999 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,680 target you know build up on the skills network etcetera, but 1000 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,960 it's also for any other target you might have within the the 1001 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,720 infra needs, sorry within the financial system industry. 1002 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:25,960 All right. Well, look, that wraps up the 1003 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,200 episode. So once again, just want to say 1004 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,280 thank you for myself and all the team and find me for sharing 1005 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,200 your time and I and I wish you all the best with your continued 1006 00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:35,880 role at UBS. Thank you, Sarah. 1007 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:38,120 Thank you very much. Anthony, it was a pleasure to be 1008 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:38,960 here. Thanks.