1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:18,200 Welcome. No, this is ideal podcast 2 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,600 Ambience can be so ashamed of us. 3 00:00:21,100 --> 00:00:23,900 Okay. So he was sending me messages 4 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:26,000 earlier complaining, that businesses that are didn't like 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,300 credit him for a story. So far, sounds like sounds like 6 00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:35,100 the vacations go. Going great, like, maybe he 7 00:00:35,100 --> 00:00:38,100 needs for. Yeah, yeah, it's like that guy. 8 00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:40,600 Like walking up and down the fucking, like, Left Bank in 9 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,500 Paris, like yelling at tourists, that he didn't get like full 10 00:00:44,500 --> 00:00:50,500 credit for his injuries and micro fun scoop Wow, remind me 11 00:00:50,500 --> 00:00:52,300 to never go on vacation with Eric newcomer. 12 00:00:52,500 --> 00:00:56,100 All right them and I apologize for the horrific noise of me, 13 00:00:56,100 --> 00:01:00,400 eating a bowl of Meatballs at midnight, but it was it was a 14 00:01:00,408 --> 00:01:02,300 good night, but I needed it need. 15 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,100 I mean, this needed to happen. I went downstairs to get it and 16 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:08,400 in the lobby of the New York Times, Corporate Apartments was 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,500 just like random lady in workout gear. 18 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:15,800 Talking to the doorman about how it's really all about diet. 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,800 Like what you eat, and you need this combination of like 13 and 20 00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:22,300 vegetables. And I'm thinking to myself, 21 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:24,800 like, I'm picking up a bag of meat balls like that. 22 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,800 I gotta go, I gotta get out of this conversation. 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:28,900 Getting was she like, hitting, was she hitting on him? 24 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:30,900 Or was just, like, trying to educate him know? 25 00:01:30,900 --> 00:01:34,700 She was like a 23 year old. She just thought she had figured 26 00:01:34,700 --> 00:01:36,500 things out. Well, I didn't like her. 27 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,300 Okay, let me enter the episode. Oh, yes, like I did last time 28 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:44,000 habit of doing this thing. We don't do in Eric's here. 29 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,700 So yeah, the episode started, it is me Tom Doulton. 30 00:01:48,900 --> 00:01:52,200 Here, here with Katie Benner eating some meatballs in the 31 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:53,700 background. We're doing a late-night dead, 32 00:01:53,700 --> 00:01:57,500 cat session things really, things really got loose with 33 00:01:57,500 --> 00:02:00,900 newcomer on vacation Huawei happened and I could I could I 34 00:02:00,900 --> 00:02:03,600 just had to do that thing. Like it was a big deal. 35 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,900 Big settlement Canadians were freed. 36 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,000 It was just like a lot. Oh, I got those Canadians out, I 37 00:02:10,008 --> 00:02:11,400 didn't read. Yeah, I mean they're like on a 38 00:02:11,408 --> 00:02:13,800 plane now. Oh man. 39 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:17,300 I know that was a bizarre couple of days during the Trump 40 00:02:17,300 --> 00:02:22,000 Administration absolon like. Yeah, yeah. 41 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,200 Well I mean, you know, everything is that it's all it's 42 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,700 all a tech lens. It's all of you through that 43 00:02:26,700 --> 00:02:28,700 angle. But so this is our second 44 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:31,800 attempts at doing this podcast episode because Katie did have 45 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:39,200 to run to do a job thing in my job. 46 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:44,100 Yeah, the, my job think. But we actually Too quickly into 47 00:02:44,100 --> 00:02:45,800 the episode last time. And I didn't get to do the thing 48 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,200 that I wanted to do which was read some of the text messages 49 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,000 between Elizabeth, Holmes, and sunny bhawani that have come out 50 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:57,200 during the theranos trial. Because I think it's easy to 51 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,000 forget in Silicon Valley that, you know, we think of it as a 52 00:03:00,008 --> 00:03:05,100 place for, you know, companies to billionaires to be minted 53 00:03:05,100 --> 00:03:08,000 technology, be to be Advanced, you know, it's all about your 54 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,600 Roi eyes and your kpis and your up into the rights. 55 00:03:11,900 --> 00:03:13,800 But I think we forget that. Really at the heart of the 56 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,400 matter Silicon Valley is about love and it's about Romanticism 57 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,400 and relationships. And so, in that mindset and that 58 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,000 note, I wanted to read some of the text messages that were 59 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,400 exchanged between Elizabeth Holmes, and sunny, bhawani to 60 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,900 understand, kind of the level of romance that can happen in 61 00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:33,500 Silicon Valley. There's no greater love and 62 00:03:33,500 --> 00:03:36,100 self-love. So Tom's going to do both, yes, 63 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:37,900 I'll do both parts. Are we playing both the part of 64 00:03:37,900 --> 00:03:43,300 Elizabeth Holmes and her romantic partner and Oh CEO, 65 00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:46,600 over co-signing bhawani. So here's here's Elizabeth 66 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,600 Holmes. You are the breeze in the desert 67 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:56,500 for me, my water and ocean meant only to be together, tiger and 68 00:03:56,500 --> 00:03:59,100 then in a different text message, he wrote madly in love 69 00:03:59,100 --> 00:04:03,200 with you and your strength and then 15 minutes later Sunny ball 70 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,600 while you replied. I am tired today, spending so 71 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,500 much time on bullshit and not on software or things that build 72 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:14,600 our product. So, you know, never never forget 73 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,200 that this is, you know, their hearts that can be won in the 74 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,800 pursuit of billions Sunny. Bhiwani was truly one of the 75 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,400 more romantic characters that came up during this and I'm 76 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:26,700 sorry I didn't work out for those two. 77 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:33,900 I just have to agree with the bird headline that the making 78 00:04:33,900 --> 00:04:37,100 the making the text public is the ultimate crime deterrent. 79 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,600 Yeah. In fairness, Elizabeth Holmes. 80 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,300 I don't know how my, you know, how, my text would look at. 81 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:47,100 Like, the, the harshness. This is the, this is the tech. 82 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:50,400 This is the tech version of The Struck page, text messages just 83 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,800 with likes, like you know, lower Stakes but seeing sort of like, 84 00:04:55,100 --> 00:04:57,900 oh god really? Yeah, it's tough. 85 00:04:57,900 --> 00:05:00,000 I wonder if that moment for Elizabeth Holmes in the trial 86 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,300 was when she realized that things kind of got out of hand, 87 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,300 you know, it's like it's one thing to, you know, fleece 88 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:07,800 investors out of, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars 89 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,000 but it's like, They're reading the text messages now, I really 90 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,900 fucked up, but anyway, on to the real episode, the thing that I 91 00:05:15,900 --> 00:05:20,600 wanted to focus on this week is we're in the era of depending on 92 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,900 who you talk to leakers or whistleblowers. 93 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,600 I feel like with the Wall Street Journal story that we talked 94 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,400 about last week, with the ongoing series of leaks coming 95 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:36,100 out from, from, from Facebook. Sorry, I just have Facebook. 96 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,800 That's really gummy is from Apple. 97 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:43,200 And, and others, you know, there's this ongoing 98 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,200 conversation happening on Twitter and among Executives 99 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,400 about like what do we do about these leakers? 100 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:50,600 You know, what does it mean about our company? 101 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,200 And so I thought to started off I was I would read and a memo 102 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,000 that Tim Cook sent out recently to Apple employees. 103 00:05:59,300 --> 00:06:03,700 And just as background for people, Apple has been probably 104 00:06:03,700 --> 00:06:09,000 suffering with some of the worst amount of leakage coming from 105 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,000 the company in it. It's in its history. 106 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,000 With a lot of current employees kind of giving pretty specific 107 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,100 and intimate slack messages about arguments that are 108 00:06:19,108 --> 00:06:22,300 happening among the employees that has made for, you know, a 109 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:24,900 bunch of stories from from The Verge and other new sites. 110 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:29,600 And so earlier this week, Tim Cook sent out a memo to his 111 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,800 employees, discussing this exact issue which immediately leaked 112 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,700 to The Verge. And so I'm going to read, I'm 113 00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:39,300 going to read it now and I thought we could discuss it 114 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:41,600 because there's a lot of That I think is pretty telling about 115 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,200 the way CEOs, view their employees. 116 00:06:44,700 --> 00:06:48,100 So here's here's the letter. Dear team, it was great to 117 00:06:48,100 --> 00:06:50,100 connect with you all at the global employee meeting on 118 00:06:50,100 --> 00:06:51,900 Friday. There was much to celebrate blah 119 00:06:51,900 --> 00:06:55,100 blah, blah was born. I'm writing today, because I've 120 00:06:55,100 --> 00:06:58,100 heard from so many of you were were incredibly frustrated. 121 00:06:58,100 --> 00:07:01,400 Hope that this was a mistake of The Verge made and not the CEO 122 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,800 of the richest country in the world because it's a pretty bad 123 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,700 typo. I'm writing today because I've 124 00:07:06,700 --> 00:07:10,800 heard from so many of you were were incredibly Rated to see the 125 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,800 contents of the meeting leak to reporters. 126 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,200 This comes after a product launch in, which most of the 127 00:07:15,207 --> 00:07:17,600 details of our announcements were also leaked to the Press. 128 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:20,400 I want you to know that I share your frustration. 129 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:23,700 These opportunities to connect as a team are really important, 130 00:07:23,900 --> 00:07:26,000 but the only work if we can trust that, the content will 131 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,900 stay within apple. I want to reassure you that we 132 00:07:28,900 --> 00:07:31,100 are doing everything in our power to identify those who 133 00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:34,000 leaked as you know, we do not tolerate disclosures of 134 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,700 confidential information, whether its product IP or the 135 00:07:36,700 --> 00:07:38,400 details of confidential meetings. 136 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,800 We know that the leak Constitute a small number of people. 137 00:07:41,900 --> 00:07:44,400 We also know that people who leaked confidential information, 138 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,200 do not belong here. And then he goes on to talk 139 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,300 about products. So that line, like we know that 140 00:07:51,300 --> 00:07:53,000 the leaker, you know, we know that people who lie, 141 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,100 conventional do not belong here. I mean, what does that, what 142 00:07:56,108 --> 00:07:58,500 does that mean to you? First of all, I love that he's 143 00:07:58,500 --> 00:08:00,800 like I know a lot of you were really disappointed by the Lakes 144 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,300 but he doesn't address the fact. A lot of people are just 145 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:06,200 disappointed in apple. Thus they are leaking quite 146 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,200 exactly know but if you're disappointed in my company 147 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,800 because everyone thinks Yy-you look within why? 148 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:17,000 Turn that depends on oneself? You know, II as a reporter. 149 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,000 I think those people definitely have a place in the company and 150 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,500 an important one. Right? 151 00:08:22,500 --> 00:08:24,100 Sure. Yes, they're important one is to 152 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:27,600 get stories to us an apple reporter. 153 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,600 So you've sort of seen the level of secrecy among the employees, 154 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,600 that is preached. You know, obviously at its 155 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:35,000 height during the Steve Job days. 156 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,700 What do you think is going on here? 157 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,500 I mean, I think that when I started Writing about Apple, 158 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:45,900 this was eons ago, but basically, I was told by 159 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,300 multiple employees who didn't want to say anything to me. 160 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,900 That part of the reason, they didn't talk to reporters with, 161 00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:54,800 why would they? Because it's such a great place 162 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,400 to work and he makes right money and like life is good and you 163 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,800 tell people you work at Apple and everyone's like, oh my God, 164 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,300 that's amazing. It's like, you know, it's like 165 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:05,200 being in LA and being an actor or something. 166 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,600 So where's the downside? So what this says to me is that 167 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,300 I'm sorry. Where's the upside and speaking? 168 00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:14,900 So what this says to me is that all those things are no longer 169 00:09:14,900 --> 00:09:19,700 enough like it must be it must be bad enough. 170 00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:23,000 Inside the company it must be boring enough inside the company 171 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:23,900 it must be. Yeah. 172 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:26,900 Eating it up inside the company. They're like, yeah, suck it. 173 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:27,900 Will talk to her. Yeah. 174 00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:29,700 Which is it was. Yeah. 175 00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:32,100 And which is interesting because the kinds of leaks that they're 176 00:09:32,100 --> 00:09:34,300 really referring to our kind of fall into two camps. 177 00:09:34,300 --> 00:09:37,300 One is like the product leaks which is been going on forever 178 00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:39,800 and a lot of running come from Apple, right? 179 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,200 Right. Those are like an incredibly 180 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,400 sophisticated like ring of people from like the supply 181 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,700 chain of Apple products that have been doing it forever. 182 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,500 We're at a point now where every Apple launch day is not a 183 00:09:50,500 --> 00:09:51,500 secret. It's funny. 184 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:53,600 It's like for a company that's like famed for its secrecy. 185 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,900 It's like maybe the leakiest place in Silicon Valley because 186 00:09:56,900 --> 00:09:59,000 like what other cover do, you know, literally every single 187 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,600 thing it's going to do on the most important days of the year, 188 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,300 for it. Another, they don't really make 189 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:07,600 like new products. Yeah, this year, it's back, 190 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,000 strain increment. I know I'm not supposed to say 191 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:12,700 Say that but they don't make any new products. 192 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:14,500 So, right. Yeah, yeah. 193 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:16,900 Which is probably why they don't care as much about the product 194 00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:20,600 weeks anymore. Innovating you can legally like 195 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,800 how dare the public find out that we're adding another 196 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,000 megapixel like that being the core thing. 197 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,700 The bezel is smaller like that clearly you know, like that ship 198 00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:33,000 has sailed but so that's like one side of things. 199 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,100 And like the cats completely out of the bag there, the horses, 200 00:10:35,100 --> 00:10:36,700 out of the barn, whatever analogy. 201 00:10:37,900 --> 00:10:41,800 But, but then the series of leaks that Happened recently at, 202 00:10:41,900 --> 00:10:44,800 you know, as largely published by The Verge, our employees that 203 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,400 are leaking about issues around pay their, you know, back to 204 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,700 office policy, you know, member diversity. 205 00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:57,400 There was that Tech. Executive Antonio Garcia Marquez 206 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,800 who was hired to be, like, a high up on their ads business 207 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,600 that got pushed out before he even really started, because 208 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,700 there was a rebellion inside Apple that, you know, was all 209 00:11:06,700 --> 00:11:11,200 kind of catalogued on slack. And then, Given to the reporter 210 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,600 and, you know, he was gone before you even started. 211 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,600 So that's so it's that sort of shit is happening over at Apple. 212 00:11:17,700 --> 00:11:22,500 And I'm very divided about these stories because in one sense, 213 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,000 you know, sure these are real issues, things like pay, 214 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,500 inequities and diversity, and all these things that, you know, 215 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:32,200 matter in any I think like conscientious Workforce. 216 00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:35,500 But at the same time, if you look at like the scale of things 217 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:38,700 that apple is doing, and you know, if you're an employee 218 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:41,800 should maybe have problems with It seems a little low on the 219 00:11:41,808 --> 00:11:42,400 list. Yeah. 220 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,300 Like the fact they don't pay like any sort of like real 221 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:47,900 amount of corporate tax. So all the stuff they profess to 222 00:11:47,900 --> 00:11:51,400 like really want to protect like the environment and lgbtq rights 223 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,900 and their things they could actually like probably more 224 00:11:53,900 --> 00:11:57,100 effectively protect but literally paying money into the 225 00:11:57,100 --> 00:11:59,500 federal government, right? Right. 226 00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:03,500 You know. I mean but yes I think that the 227 00:12:03,500 --> 00:12:07,500 what's happened to Apple speaks to when that these employee 228 00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:10,600 issues are a big deal in Silicon Valley because Talent is 229 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,200 acquiring talents, really competitive. 230 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,800 People can do have places to go, so if they don't like it, they 231 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:16,900 can, they can whinge and they can complain. 232 00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:21,000 And they can bring things to management but also and think it 233 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,800 speaks to how unhappy employees are in general. 234 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:28,100 And I think that this is sort of part of a bigger Trend outside 235 00:12:28,100 --> 00:12:30,300 of apple. And so as long as apple is 236 00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:33,200 unable to recognize that and try to figure out what to do about 237 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,600 things, like burn out to do about the fact that people sit 238 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,300 around at home isolated all day long. 239 00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:42,000 So you know things about Company that bother them can really 240 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:49,100 become very large and very hard to ignore the fact that people 241 00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:51,500 are lonely and their teams are falling apart. 242 00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:54,200 If they can really deal with us though, the the leaks will 243 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:59,200 continue right? And it's in a way I can sort of 244 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,500 see, it's largely related because the things that these 245 00:13:02,500 --> 00:13:05,300 employees are talking about are the things they maybe have some 246 00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:07,900 control over, right? Like they can probably raise 247 00:13:07,900 --> 00:13:12,300 enough hell to get a better. Attempt at diversity hiring or, 248 00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:15,200 you know, Executives of color, or pay Equity, those sort of 249 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,400 things. Can, someone who is like a 250 00:13:17,408 --> 00:13:20,400 marketing, a mid-level marketing person at Apple really do 251 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,200 anything about the hiring of slave, labor of like uyghurs at 252 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,900 some of the supply chain members of the iPod manufacturing. 253 00:13:29,300 --> 00:13:31,400 It's just like those are real issues and I don't know if they 254 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,900 care about them or not, but they just try to fund the federal 255 00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:39,900 government, right? Like we do right, right. 256 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:41,000 Yeah. Yeah, sure. 257 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,500 You know, be part of the system that could theoretically make a 258 00:13:43,508 --> 00:13:48,400 stand against these things. But, you know, at the same time 259 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,700 you may be like that sort of cynicism and like recognition 260 00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:54,300 that their company. It's just like, is intractable 261 00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:57,900 and is going to be involved in these sort of nauseating, 262 00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:02,500 elements of global economy and capitalism is just sort of 263 00:14:02,508 --> 00:14:04,300 trickles down to them. And they're just, they're not 264 00:14:04,308 --> 00:14:06,100 happy with their job because they don't believe in the 265 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:08,400 mission. And at that point, you're just 266 00:14:08,408 --> 00:14:11,400 kind of generally unhappy and more likely to just take stands 267 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,800 against things that are pissing you off. 268 00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:17,000 It was this weird thing about moving to San Francisco. 269 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:23,200 In 2014. Hello Cal could you wait one 270 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,100 second, Thomas hudler just walked into the frame? 271 00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:26,900 Hello. Hi. 272 00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:29,600 Rosa. Really fucking late. 273 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,600 Yeah, it was very funny that he had hiccups and he was not able 274 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:33,900 to go to sleep. Is that what's happening? 275 00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:38,700 Can I give you a hug and you go back to sleep? 276 00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:45,600 Can I give you a hug? It's a too funny. 277 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:51,100 It's too funny. Definitely hug is going to be 278 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:54,700 attempted hug. Take one thumbs left the booth 279 00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:59,100 too. Well, hopefully, he'll go to 280 00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:01,100 sleep, we don't know though and you call, there's a very 281 00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:04,200 unpredictable Tom's back that litter that literally has never 282 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,200 happened before. Never liked her toddler is never 283 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,000 woken up in an inopportune moment. 284 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:14,600 No, never not screaming or crying at me and demanding to be 285 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,700 on our bed. Yeah, your mileage may vary on, 286 00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:22,200 what that, what that scene did you, where were we? 287 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,400 Oh, I was talking how Apple employees are disaffected and 288 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,500 miserable. I mean, We moved to San 289 00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:31,000 Francisco in 2014 and people were so all in on the idea that 290 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,300 companies had these big missions. 291 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,800 I had discovered Wall Street where people were all in on the 292 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,700 idea that they worked to get very rich or they worked in a 293 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:44,000 company super-rich, right? But they were not living purpose 294 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,300 filled lives. No, no. 295 00:15:46,300 --> 00:15:49,500 That by moving blips around, on a screen that represented money 296 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:53,300 and I got through active mission was a virtue, but then I got to 297 00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:55,500 California. I was like so much of what we're 298 00:15:55,900 --> 00:15:59,600 watching here. Is kind of like blips moving 299 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,600 around on a screen. Like I'm building better 300 00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:05,700 management software I'm building right now. 301 00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:06,700 There's anything wrong with these. 302 00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:09,000 These companies are fine. Like just like I think that like 303 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,700 banks are fine like at the end of the day if you're building a 304 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:17,900 software company that handles electronic records really well. 305 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:21,100 That's great right now. But you know, the believe that 306 00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:25,100 like you're, you know, you're a charity and you're in your the 307 00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:26,500 only Force making the world a better. 308 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,000 In the future. I think one of the few recipes 309 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,400 that was really bringing us into the future was probably 310 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:32,800 Facebook. It was bringing us into a 311 00:16:32,808 --> 00:16:36,100 dystopian future but yeah, bringing us their real fast. 312 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:40,300 Yeah, it wasn't accelerating something, the end of three. 313 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,200 Mm. But uh, sure, but yeah, so there 314 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:51,000 was this, I think that whole that whole belief has shifted 315 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,100 and Fallen away. And so that's another sort of 316 00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:57,000 bigger Trend that all the discontent around these Apple 317 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:02,500 employees plays into, right like, how much are they unhappy 318 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:05,099 with apples inside? Because the valley has stopped 319 00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:08,000 thinking of itself in a certain way that it was maybe not really 320 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,400 got realistic to begin with. But that, you know, Helped 321 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,599 attract talent and Foster Innovation and right, just what? 322 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:19,400 And it benefited these companies so much. 323 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:20,800 Right? I mean that was a huge part of 324 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,400 Attractive people from Wall Street like from the financial 325 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,800 sector by saying. Come to California, you know, 326 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,700 you'll get to, you know, see some trees and also your change 327 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:32,400 in the world like you're making the same amount of money, if not 328 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,000 more, but you're doing it towards, you know, this is 329 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,900 greater good and you're leaving the sector that everybody hates 330 00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:40,600 because you literally just destroyed the global economy. 331 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:41,900 Right. Right. 332 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:43,900 And like you'll have a chance to do that in a couple years and 333 00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:49,600 Tech but opportunity abounds. Yeah yeah, it'll just take a 334 00:17:49,608 --> 00:17:54,200 couple more years but yeah they've I don't know if it was 335 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,600 the pandemic itself or like that, just the general drift 336 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,000 away from Mission. But I think across the valley 337 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,100 companies are having issues with keeping employees engaged. 338 00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:04,800 I mean, that's one of the reasons that there was a lot of 339 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,700 uproar over return to the office, right? 340 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:11,100 The guys didn't actually like, coming in that much. 341 00:18:11,300 --> 00:18:13,600 You know, and it's pretty hysterical that it happened in 342 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,600 Tech, which was like the office culture. 343 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,300 The one that was supposed to make being there, like going to 344 00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:21,400 a spa, and a gym, and a therapist. 345 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,900 And in fact, all the money that we spent on these things was not 346 00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:26,500 enough. To keep them really all that 347 00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:27,600 engaged. Yeah. 348 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,400 It's like the pandemic was like, we were, it's like in the Iceman 349 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,400 Cometh. When the dude goes into the bar 350 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,000 and he's like, you know what, it's time to pull away the veil. 351 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,100 None of you are ever going to do any of this stuff. 352 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,700 If like this is all just a pipe dream and then you've got people 353 00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:47,100 like jumping off the fire escape and stuff. 354 00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:49,500 So it's filled with the pandemic, kind of had that 355 00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:53,900 effect on on, on most people. Like, what are we right with our 356 00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:56,100 lives, right? And so, and so, one of the 357 00:18:56,100 --> 00:19:00,100 manifestations beyond the great resignation is like, you know, 358 00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:04,500 like the great, I don't know consternation like the great the 359 00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:07,600 great disassociation. It's just people that have 360 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,000 stated their jobs and they just don't like it that much anymore. 361 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000 And, you know, You can like try to find the biggest Merit in 362 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,500 what they're doing, which is maybe these leaks are, you know, 363 00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:20,000 an effort to change the company and push things in a more, I 364 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,100 don't know, egalitarians direction or whatever. 365 00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:26,000 But if you're a CEO, it's like, it becomes us against them, 366 00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:29,100 right? It's it doesn't live to be like, 367 00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:32,200 you could be seen as an opportunity by executive to say 368 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,600 okay what is making these employees someone happy and how 369 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,300 can we what else can we do about the problem other than just 370 00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:41,100 throwing money at it, right? Or threatening to fire them? 371 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,600 You were threatening to fight fire in them or if there are 372 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,700 other things that Executives could do. 373 00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:50,300 But I think most of them go, the Tim Cook route. 374 00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:53,200 Yeah. Which will see how much longer 375 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:54,800 it lasts. Because in one sense you 376 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,900 probably could Purge, you know, a certain number of people 377 00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:01,400 either through investigations or like, just ostracizing them, 378 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,200 and, you know, it's like you'll see these companies like 379 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,000 coinbase, which was the one that basically said, we don't want to 380 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,100 talk politics anymore and the work. 381 00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:14,700 Is man, but like, move less that company. 382 00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:16,600 That's hard. Yeah, everybody wants to talk 383 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,800 politics in the workplace. You're really Buck, right? 384 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,400 Well, so yes, they're like, we don't want to talk politics 385 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,600 anymore, the workplace. And like if you don't want to, 386 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,900 if you don't want to do that, you can leave will buy you out 387 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,300 and then like 40% of this place. Like, yeah. 388 00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:31,900 Now I gotta go, I gotta talk politics, I gotta do it over 389 00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:37,000 slack that compulsion. I don't really understand but I 390 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,300 but I love the idea of people really sticking to their guns. 391 00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:43,000 This is total aside, but I was doing a Google image, search of 392 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,400 Hmong one Joe and it all these pictures. 393 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:51,500 You see her coming out of her like awesome mansion in Canada 394 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,400 and she this is the CEO of Huawei don't get this is CFO 395 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,900 accusations of you know charges of bank fraud wire fraud and 396 00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:07,600 they were all basically they will all be dropped in this 397 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,800 different prosecution though. She does have a long statement 398 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,100 of things that she admits that she did. 399 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,400 We're not right, yada yada. I'm just going to say and all 400 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,200 these photo. She's going these extraordinary 401 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,000 outfits that are like she is she is she has she has put together 402 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,800 outfits around her ankle monitor bracelet. 403 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,400 The ankle monitor bracelet looks amazing and all these outfits 404 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,100 like so good. I don't understand why nobody 405 00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:34,500 wore an ankle monitor bracelet to the Met Gala because it was 406 00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:37,600 like, you know what America means to me and it looks 407 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,000 fantastic. The teal dress the purple dress, 408 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,200 the yellow Blazer with the with the floofy, black skirt, the 409 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,000 ankle monitor bracelet looks very purposeful. 410 00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:51,300 Well anyway what were we just talking about? 411 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,500 I don't know. Oh, people hate working at tech 412 00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:54,300 companies. Oh yeah. 413 00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:55,800 I think they just hate working yet. 414 00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:58,700 Yeah yeah, sure. And so so it's manifested in 415 00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:01,400 multiple ways and one of them is leaking to the press. 416 00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:04,900 And I mean, I can say as a reporter the number of people 417 00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:09,000 that reach out to me after certain stories seems higher. 418 00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:13,600 No, granted. I was covering media beforehand 419 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,500 where everyone thinks that they are holding State secrets about 420 00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:19,300 like, you know what, the pricing scheme is for peacock or 421 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:24,800 whatever, but so it was a little harder with that. 422 00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:27,900 I think people are. People are angsty. 423 00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:30,800 Yeah. And again, they're disgruntled. 424 00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:35,800 It's very hard to separate the impact of a year and a half of 425 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,400 isolation wondering whether or not you're going to become sick. 426 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,100 Feeling angry all the time because you're communicating 427 00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:45,900 with people through social media far, too much like what impact 428 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:48,800 that has on what's going on in these tech companies? 429 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,100 But I think is also very telling that the tech company 430 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:53,500 Executives. At least from what we can see 431 00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:57,200 what the company is doing is not that there's executives are not 432 00:22:57,300 --> 00:23:00,600 actively moving toward addressing like bigger root 433 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,200 problems and stuff. They're like, I'm glad we can 434 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,900 all agree that people who talk to the media should be canned, 435 00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:08,900 right? Yeah, it sounds to me. 436 00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:10,600 You may be needed. Another week of, you know, 437 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,700 unlimited PTO, whatever perk, they're pushing. 438 00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:16,500 So this is a but I want to switch it over now to Facebook 439 00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:20,400 because they are the most immediate recipient of like I 440 00:23:20,408 --> 00:23:24,600 think more significant leaks, you know, ones that sort of 441 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,300 speak to the core of the company's problems and Mission. 442 00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:33,700 And well keep in mind that that that the also I hate the term 443 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,000 leaks. I'm sorry. 444 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,300 I wish I wasn't gonna do it. So like it's like to hear really 445 00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:41,200 bumping up against like I'm Fortunate bodily, fluids stuff. 446 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,600 Yes, all I works. I like sources. 447 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,000 I like sharing information, sharing important information. 448 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,100 The public's comparing notes. You know, I just like, I'm leak 449 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:55,400 is sort of derogatory anyway, so yeah, it's a little too, 450 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:56,700 depends. Okay. 451 00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:02,500 Let's stay away from that. Isle of Duane Reade and and just 452 00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:04,800 keep keep going, right? Let's go behind. 453 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:11,100 Let's go to the back. So yeah, the Facebook story, 454 00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:13,700 isn't the journal, just wrote the Facebook files. 455 00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:17,500 Wonderful, it, like, great investigative work. 456 00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:20,800 Just like one of the most impressive, plank week-long, 457 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,700 blow after blow ya, a different angle, angles of the company, 458 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:27,700 and I think that one of the things that made it so powerful 459 00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:32,400 is that the it was based on documents not just shared with 460 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,800 the journal, but it's clear that these documents and puts it have 461 00:24:35,808 --> 00:24:39,400 been put together already and almost a narrative fashion. 462 00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:43,200 In order to be shared with Congress because somebody at the 463 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:49,100 company, a whistleblower was so disturbed by the fact that 464 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:53,300 Facebook internally new as the journal and put it in a cute 465 00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:58,200 detail that its platform was so deeply flawed and right, harming 466 00:24:58,200 --> 00:24:59,500 people and weighs only the company. 467 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:02,300 Understood its outward facing message was things are actually 468 00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:04,300 pretty great, right. Right. 469 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:08,400 They would try this wasn't like, the sort of sharing of 470 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,700 information with Sure, that that we're used to and I think the 471 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:14,000 relics used to reading. This was sort of more along the 472 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,600 lines of like a very well put together, a packet of 473 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,800 information that was sent that was shared, not just with 474 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,700 reporters but also with lawmakers, right? 475 00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:26,500 And so that's the next step of this whole thing. 476 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:29,100 I mean, we had the stories from from The Wall Street Journal. 477 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:31,400 Last week, we're not only two weeks ago when this comes out, 478 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,400 but the next step is it really appears that this person is 479 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,100 going to or has been in communication with lawmakers and 480 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:42,400 it's Like the testify in in some sort of public setting and so 481 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,800 they're going to kind of in the same, you know, the grand 482 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:50,300 fashion of Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning. 483 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,700 And I'm trying to think, well, I guess Daniel Ellsberg someone 484 00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:59,500 who is going to be the face of this resistance to power and I 485 00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:01,400 don't know what you think's going to happen to this person, 486 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,900 you know, I think it depends. Some whistleblowers don't want 487 00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:07,200 to come forward and be the face of anything at least not for a 488 00:26:07,208 --> 00:26:10,500 little while. And I Think that we're in such a 489 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:13,900 weird. We're in such a weird point 490 00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:16,000 right now and it sure comes to news consumption. 491 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,900 How quickly people become, like, really outraged, like deep and 492 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:27,700 and Furious way and then how quickly the outrage dissipate. 493 00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:29,800 So one of the interesting things about this Facebook story is 494 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,800 that, yes, there's a lot of outrage but at the same time 495 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,300 because it's so substantive. You can almost feel people 496 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:38,600 trying to digest. It sure. 497 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,400 It gives you a lot to be Like initially, outraged about so you 498 00:26:41,408 --> 00:26:44,600 can have an internet freak out. But at the same time, people are 499 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,300 actually trying to digest this and it's in I don't if you're 500 00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:50,700 The Whistleblower and you're sort of seeing what's going on, 501 00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:53,900 like by coming forward and putting your identity out there, 502 00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:57,300 you can start the outrage cycle up again. 503 00:26:57,300 --> 00:27:01,900 Pretty easily be the hero and go on Good Morning, America or 504 00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:05,500 whatever, or you could just stay quiet and watched people. 505 00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:08,200 Actually try to observe a happen and not give them a new thing to 506 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,200 be distracted by, what for The your identity. 507 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,100 Yeah, it wouldn't make sense. Long term for your Dad. 508 00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:18,500 We did it. He's asleep Cal is asleep with 509 00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:21,500 this podcast. It's so boring. 510 00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:24,500 We have put the baby to sleep. Yeah, that's that's a fucking 511 00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:27,100 thing we could sell though. Like that would be the greatest 512 00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:29,200 business that we could possibly get up this podcast. 513 00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:35,100 Yeah, I mean, it could be a distraction from the central 514 00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:37,200 narrative that this whistleblower, you know, is 515 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,000 obviously interested in, which is, you know, we need Examine 516 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,400 this company in as close a way, as possible. 517 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,500 But I wonder if part of the issue is going to be, you know, 518 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:48,200 how could because there was so much in those stories, I mean, 519 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,100 so many failings alleged whatever, failings of the 520 00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:54,200 company had, how many documented failings but that way yeah yeah 521 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,200 yeah I like that one that you know it takes something specific 522 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,200 for people to Rally around at least at the time to push for 523 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,000 any specific change or area of like further investigation and I 524 00:28:06,008 --> 00:28:06,800 don't know what that's going to be. 525 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,300 It's like we've already kind of gone through the cycle of 526 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:15,000 Politics and like, its influence on our national discourse and we 527 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,500 have, you know, where the other and sex trafficking and 528 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,100 international violence, that's obviously, hugely significant. 529 00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:26,200 But, I don't know. Americans tend to not care much 530 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,400 about, you know, International goings-on in a way that would, 531 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:31,800 you know, it's like, are you really going to get that in 532 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,100 people America that pissed off about me? 533 00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:37,800 And Mar I think that the series gave people a lot to think about 534 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,300 in terms of just their own lives. 535 00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:42,900 The way that teenagers respond to platforms like Instagram, the 536 00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:46,200 way art that we ourselves respond to another, our friends 537 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,500 family loved ones. If we spend too much time on 538 00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:54,100 Facebook, I think what could be powerful as if is not like a 539 00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:57,700 thing to Rally around and get super angry about on Twitter for 540 00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:01,600 a couple days but just sort of like a deeper recognition that 541 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,900 using these products is really not that great for us, right? 542 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,000 Not that good and that people will just sort of fall away and 543 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,500 he'll lose interest. And they would want to create 544 00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:12,500 content, they're not going to want to post outrageous things 545 00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:14,400 anymore. They'll find themselves much 546 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,700 more enjoying like you know, like zoning out on a different 547 00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:21,900 platform or doing right? More the safe ones. 548 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,700 The safe ones like Tick-Tock. Yeah, that's something that they 549 00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:29,200 could take a long time. We've already been there. 550 00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:34,000 I eat. But why is it on your phone? 551 00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:35,600 Yeah, I can have it on your phone. 552 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,800 I can. Oh, that's the mistake. 553 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,700 And are you gotta get it off? Reading and then downloading it 554 00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:43,700 again. Like I was never given this 555 00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:46,300 addicted to cigarettes like it's so annoying. 556 00:29:46,900 --> 00:29:49,400 Yeah, no, I mean, that's that I don't know to say that's not 557 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,200 you, you should know better this point as a former smoker. 558 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,000 You should know exactly. I think former comes and goes. 559 00:29:57,300 --> 00:29:58,200 Yeah. Right. 560 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,700 This is like, it's just really, it's really dependent on. 561 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,600 Its just its state of the world. There are other factors. 562 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,800 Yeah, no. I know the progression is going 563 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,300 to be interesting. To watch in terms of people's 564 00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:14,500 reaction because it's just, you know, we've already started to 565 00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:17,300 see the like, you know, business reaction and those like 566 00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:19,900 Coalition of advertisers that do boycotts. 567 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,400 They're trying to do their thing. 568 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:24,900 If it's as effective as like the one they did last time Facebook 569 00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:27,200 could be worth 2 trillion dollars by the end of it. 570 00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:30,400 I mean it's like if we stop using it, the other side of it 571 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,400 is like okay if it's clear that boycotts don't work then like 572 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,500 clearly the other side of it is like the back but the regulatory 573 00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:41,000 arm and you know Ability for government to do anything about 574 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,800 it, and that's not looking too good. 575 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,400 I think it's good. That people just need to leave 576 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,200 the service. Yeah. 577 00:30:48,100 --> 00:30:50,500 But we've already seen the point where they won't leave out of 578 00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:53,800 anger because you know, conservatives get pissed off 579 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,000 about it. But still that's their favorite 580 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,200 place to put their means and like the place forever I think 581 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,600 people like to get pissed off on Facebook regardless of their 582 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,800 political leanings. Okay. 583 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:09,200 So the last thing I want to talk about in this episode was you 584 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,400 know, And this is, you know, this can be our work or work 585 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,000 themed episode, because this is about this really great series 586 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,300 that, I don't know if you read and haven't fully read in in the 587 00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:21,100 site called rest of world, which covers international business. 588 00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:23,700 So you like don't read the stories that you tweet, you 589 00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:27,100 don't read the tweets, really. And then you like, I'm to read 590 00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:29,500 about this site that I haven't really read. 591 00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:32,100 Okay, that's cool. I work for a site that tries to 592 00:31:32,108 --> 00:31:34,500 limit stories articles to 500 Words. 593 00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:39,900 So when I click on a story and I see like a big video, At the top 594 00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:41,900 of it, you know, when they have like the video in the background 595 00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:44,500 and you can scroll, the text is on top of the video and I was 596 00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:46,900 like, fuck. I'm in for a long one here. 597 00:31:47,100 --> 00:31:50,800 I don't know if I have it in me. This is rest of world. 598 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,000 Is this site that was created by Eric Schmidt's daughter? 599 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,200 No. Was it? 600 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,000 That sounds right? Yes. 601 00:31:58,100 --> 00:31:59,800 Is that right? That is right. 602 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,000 Well, so it's it's a rest of world is anyone who is worth 603 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,100 less than that? I guess? 604 00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:11,600 So there was a series about gig work around the world. 605 00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:15,700 And I particularly liked it because obviously we all those 606 00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:18,600 who cover the space just care about the plight of the American 607 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,100 gig worker, which is Meaningful. But it's much more complicated 608 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:28,700 and I think difficult in, I think a lot of other parts of 609 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:30,600 the world especially poor parts of the world. 610 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,900 But what this article was basically discussing is like, 611 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:38,200 this is the life of Say, you know, food delivery, like an app 612 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,600 food delivery person in India, using zomato, or in Serbia, or 613 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,500 all these other places. And I guess what, I didn't 614 00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:50,200 really realize until reading that story is like this model is 615 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,600 just fucking everywhere. Like there is a huge percentage 616 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,900 of the world's population that uses this. 617 00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:02,300 That kind of relies on these apps as their form of delivery. 618 00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:06,800 I'm sorry, there's a form of income and I'm really I don't 619 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:13,600 know, like what effect does that end up having on, you know, an 620 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,500 entire Workforce is my question, you know, like first of all how 621 00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:20,300 sustainable or any of these apps but like to have this many 622 00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:23,900 people funneled into this one type of work seems like it's not 623 00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:27,300 going to end well. Yeah and it does make me wonder, 624 00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:28,900 you know, I just pulled up that story. 625 00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:33,400 This idea that these jobs while they do pay money and they'd 626 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:40,100 often pay relatively relatively very well, that they are high 627 00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:44,200 cost in terms of your own fuel, your own insurance, you become 628 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,200 your own company, you're completely self-reliant and to 629 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,500 have, I guess I would just wonder, you know, how much of 630 00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:54,400 our lives. And the way we view the world is 631 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:58,300 shaped by the idea of working with other people working toward 632 00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:01,500 common goals, working in a corporation, working in a shared 633 00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:05,400 workspace, whether it's white collar job, or a blue collar 634 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,500 job, You know working together being together and feeling like 635 00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:15,800 work is another version of positive human interaction 636 00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:19,900 versus work. Being a you against the world on 637 00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:21,900 your scooter. Trying to get somebody there 638 00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:25,600 dinner or the right or the right there midnight meatballs. 639 00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:28,600 Yeah right. And they're very unconnected to 640 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,699 the other people that do this to mean that. 641 00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:33,600 Right? And that obviously, you know, 642 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,100 for like unionization reasons, makes it very difficult. 643 00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:41,199 So do you also impact on the way that people think about Civic 644 00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:47,199 life and civic duty if you know everything about their work life 645 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:51,400 which is how they spend the bulk of their time is reinforcing 646 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:57,800 this idea of you alone, right? We've seen what happened when 647 00:34:57,900 --> 00:35:00,500 the whole world was forced to think of themselves as alone for 648 00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:02,700 a year or so, I don't think I've talked to Tim Cook, he doesn't 649 00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:06,800 like it makes me like, yeah, people don't know what Came back 650 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:12,200 happier, we think. And, yeah, I think you're right. 651 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,600 It's removal from Community. It's removal from other people 652 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,200 with shared interests, and I think it also because there are 653 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,600 certain appealing aspects of it, they're willing to put up with a 654 00:35:22,607 --> 00:35:26,900 lot of shit in order to continue this life, you know, like that 655 00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:28,700 their lack of empowerment. When it comes to dealing, with 656 00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:31,600 the companies, they're obvious their lack of pay and their 657 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,100 complete inability to have like any organization to push. 658 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:39,600 Back on these things but they're like man it's also just really 659 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,400 easy for me to. I mean it's a cube I shouldn't 660 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,600 say easy but it's convenient in certain ways to just try to make 661 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,600 it work because it's just right there like the job is just in 662 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,700 front of you. Yeah, absolutely. 663 00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:56,800 I have to this has been like such an organized episode and 664 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:02,600 what's so hilarious about it is that Eric usually puts together 665 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,600 these extraordinarily. Weirdly detailed outlines the 666 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,900 even include cues for me to scold him, right? 667 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,900 And now you're playing the part of Katie better and thank and 668 00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:19,100 it's chaos every time. But and you usually leave in the 669 00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:21,100 middle and I have to go near the end. 670 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,300 Usually duck out. Yeah. 671 00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:28,700 The this is like there's we're it's been so organized and we 672 00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:36,100 don't have Eric's like 1200 words script and I am most 673 00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:40,700 people martinis and it's great. Yeah, I know that there's gonna 674 00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:44,100 be here 15 minutes ago and means I should have been floating the 675 00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:46,000 last the last parts of the conversation. 676 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,800 So can we what do you think Eric's doing right now? 677 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,700 Where is he again, he's in Paris. 678 00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:55,900 He he was sending a photo in reference to how cool and like 679 00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:58,400 not engaged in the world. He has on his kind of I think it 680 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,500 was a big support. He's successful and he's pissed. 681 00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:03,400 Business Insider Desai time. He's so detached. 682 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,600 It's funny because like it's been sort of a weird Like the 683 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,900 coverage of Facebook has really dominated everything about tech 684 00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:16,000 news, you know, it's really hard to like, you know, it's really 685 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,800 hard to get excited about. For example, this story Ryder 686 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,700 Cup on course with tech overhaul, you know what I mean? 687 00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:25,300 Like, it's long enough from that's the journal and so I 688 00:37:25,308 --> 00:37:28,000 don't want to be disparaging of the reporter because I'm sure 689 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,400 it's a very good story. But yeah, they work, they were 690 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,100 three months on that story. Yeah, it was that's their 691 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:36,200 Pulitzer submission. This is your obsession with 692 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,000 opposers is so weird. They would have been easier to 693 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,100 talk about just that low boards, funnier word. 694 00:37:43,300 --> 00:37:45,700 I like this quote though. Nobody would ever think there 695 00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:47,300 was this much technology in golf. 696 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,900 This is the PGA of America is Tech Chief. 697 00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:52,200 You know what tech Chief. You're fucking right. 698 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:53,600 Yeah. That's what you get yourself a 699 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,100 job. Nobody would ever think that has 700 00:37:56,100 --> 00:37:58,200 proof that there's a lot of technology in golf. 701 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,800 I have a job to Tech Chief. Yeah, I mean like these are 702 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,500 quick. Let's just do a quick tour of 703 00:38:05,500 --> 00:38:08,200 the headlines. So we've got Quickly pull up, 704 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,700 tap me Ryder Cup, that's the way we close out there, okay? 705 00:38:11,700 --> 00:38:15,300 An Amazon faces headquarters controversy this time in Africa, 706 00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:21,000 okay? Bitcoin said a lower, no ever 707 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,600 Grande for you Bitcoin. I think Jed is snowing. 708 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:32,700 I think we put him to sleep. He's here and that's to get Rosa 709 00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:37,400 down. This will be some sort of three 710 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:38,700 down. I'm is what we'll call the 711 00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:40,700 episode. I think that the Elizabeth 712 00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:45,100 Holmes text messages were possibly like the most uplifting 713 00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:46,100 part of. Yeah. 714 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,500 It's the it's the Funny Pages. You know it's like get 715 00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:51,300 everything is is the news of everything? 716 00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:53,800 I mean I have to say, I tell the Tycho throught. 717 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,500 I understand why they are so ridiculous and when you read 718 00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:58,100 them, they're particularly amusing. 719 00:38:58,100 --> 00:39:08,400 But at the same time and I just like I just I feel a lot A lot 720 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,000 of empathy for those two human beings that is possibly the 721 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:18,600 worst thing that could happen. So I just I I like yeah I wish I 722 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,600 could be I wish I could just be like this is all areas but 723 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,400 actually I'm like oh God. Oh God. 724 00:39:25,300 --> 00:39:28,800 Yeah I'm sorry too. No I it's fine. 725 00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:30,600 We'll probably end up in the same place. 726 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,800 I was thinking I'd be like I'm meaner drunk or something but 727 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,200 I'm still like, you know, it's just sad. 728 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,200 It's just that well I think that's A place to end the 729 00:39:38,207 --> 00:39:41,400 episode as we can. We can reiterate the points that 730 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,200 we had at the top when referring to Elizabeth Holmes text 731 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,500 messages, which is that I think the show has a real potential as 732 00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:52,300 a not so much dating advice, but use as a tech executive, send us 733 00:39:52,300 --> 00:39:53,800 your messages. Yes. 734 00:39:53,900 --> 00:39:55,300 And we can help you, we can help you. 735 00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:57,500 Well guess it could be part advice and just par audio 736 00:39:57,500 --> 00:39:59,800 secret. So is there something that you 737 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,600 used to want to unwisely post on an app where your identity was 738 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,500 inevitably going to be revealed? If so just send it to us. 739 00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:10,300 Through some encrypted messaging platform or fire. 740 00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:13,400 A proton mail account and we'll just read all those thoughts out 741 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:14,400 loud. Thank you. 742 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,500 You're on the show. Your body was here. 743 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,100 Yeah. Yeah right. 744 00:40:19,100 --> 00:40:22,400 That's for audience of Eric subscribers and an increasing 745 00:40:22,700 --> 00:40:27,900 increasing number of PR people. All right, well, and next time 746 00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:29,800 we're going to do the shift, totally sober. 747 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,300 Yeah, we'll change it up. All right, this is Tom do Tom 748 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:36,400 Katie better reciting off here and see you back here next week. 749 00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:50,400 Goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, 750 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:51,400 goodbye. Goodbye.