Welcome. Hey everybody.
Welcome to Dead cat. Tom dote on here, joined by E.
Newcomer just wrote a new comer make it true.
Eric newcomer we got a very exciting episode today, joining
us today is Mark Bergen reporter at Bloomberg and author of the
new book. Like comment, subscribe inside
you too. ABS chaotic rise to World,
Domination chaotic, rise to World Domination, did you most
hyped hyped book on this podcast, avionic.
Rise to World Domination. Like how much pressure was there
from the publisher to really pump up?
You know, like the subtitle for a book, it's about an internet
company, it was know, what are the original one out there.
I'll give you the Insight was and how you took over the world
conquer the world, okay? And then there was some concern
that, that would be like a little.
Like, I mean, I am super, I do What people that makes it seem
to intentional, right? The chaotic sort of made it seem
like it was like how they did it which is like, you know, also
true. Like people I think hopefully
people that are like super, super popular.
A lot of YouTube fans or people who like love to company in like
think they're the best thing would also be interested in the
book that I asked, you know, I didn't want people to say like,
oh, this is just that I think there are some expectation that
maybe they were right. There are those business books
that are more, just like, you know, the rise to success and
how you can be successful. If you follow the YouTube path,
where this is more, like, this is the site that has also been a
platform for some of the words. We wanted some chaos in there.
Right. Right.
And it was wild wild rides. But, anyway, Mark has been
covering Google for years at Bloomberg.
How close were you to newcomer? And the office?
This is a question I now ask people.
Oh yeah, we're just, uh, yeah, this is great.
Wait, I was certainly within earshot who was sort of like
diagonal. Yeah and we would often, I feel
like I miss turning and might have like I'm just doing like an
Abrupt right turn right? I can area was like one of the
like love to talk and why wait when you're on the phone when
you're trying to get when you're older like post-mortems or I was
always looking for office drama. You know it's like I do I would
be like I would often turn to him me like I'm suddenly really
good call right. You wanted to see me.
There's no one on the other side and I feel like we often.
I also, I was always trying to get Eric to in this city
understandably. Like sometimes past I was just
like Maps is like the biggest, don't worry.
Yeah, I really like that was a game of Bloomberg where every
reporter had like something on their beat that they thought was
the most important thing in the world.
And you have to make some calculation.
Like, even if I deliver on this, is it what's in it for me?
But Mark has been covering Google for forever and and I
think you've been one of the most kind of Of reporters and
getting inside, you know, the corporate drama there and then
now more specifically YouTube and I so I mean, which I'm
assuming is what led into your desire to write this book,
right? I mean, like what, you know, you
kind of in your, is it in your intro, like author intro you
sort of say like no one's really done the YouTube book right?
Now one's really taken the time to explain the origins of the
company and its, you know, chaotic world rise domination.
Yeah, I'm I'm like a spiral. I consider myself a Google
criminologist and that's My favorite thing to do and maybe
it's not like a super useful skill, but I like the Google is
like a very powerful organization.
I feel like I'm more interested in like, how like works and
doesn't work in the sort of. And anyway, so yes that was, you
know, came in coverings, we 13 and YouTube was very much a
Hollywood Story, right? So I worked for goes back,
agree, code, and like, Peter kafka's phenomenal, media
reporter, like, got the like YouTube that side of the YouTube
and the streaming and it's like whenever they butted he would
and it wasn't really like a, it wasn't like the platform
contact. Moderation story was there,
right? No one was paying attention to
it in bulk, that's in the pressing, the company itself and
it was after 2017, the series of crises and advertising play
cards. And all the stuff that ticket
for the point. That book, when I started to dig
in one, key moment was like a former YouTube person was like,
you really didn't order to understand this, you have to go
back to the bike. I'm lawsuit.
Like took. That's like where you two people
cut their teeth on that and like so much it.
Company in party, understand a company.
You have to go back to that. It's sort of like an order to
understand Google. You have to go to Burning, Man.
I mean the book starts off with like a shooting, you know.
It is a very dramatic opening and I think captures like the
real world, dark sort of stakes for the company and sort of how
much tearing down, you know, the sort of elite guardians of
information flow has sort of changed the world.
And so I I think the book is very smart and sort of setting
that up as the stakes and that's obviously a theme, we care a lot
about. So I wanted to get that in the
readers ear but then before we get to that I think the other
thing that is very clear from the start of the book is the
YouTube is this like super important company that I think
that almost because it was buried in Google and alphabet
and all this it hasn't gotten the heat that Facebook has
gotten and you do a good job and I can you rattle Like how big is
YouTube? And like the sense that YouTube
is like actually much more important to the culture Than
People necessarily appreciate if they're not a young person sort
of, I'm on it all the time but I still feel like somehow the
media hasn't really communicated, how big it is
relative to Facebook, to give a sense of size.
There was a Pew study. Was it last week too soon.
Thomas like couple weeks ago. Yeah.
Like something I would like to hold teens 2014.
And for some reason they didn't ask him about YouTube.
I like, you know, it was like, what?
How oft, what are you? What sites do you with social
media sites to you visit and with YouTube is 95% said like,
and then like it was the most it was talk, it was above
Instagram. Well, they would like their
other, like, and I think the prot like part of the issue that
like YouTube, It's answer question about why doesn't God
as much scrutiny is because it sits in this like, weird nether
region where it's like, sort of streaming but not, if sort of
social media, but not like some of it is structural, we're like,
you know, our desk like Bloomberg and other Publications
like the Google reported Recovers YouTube and the girl
reporter is you know, covering like self-driving cars and like
antitrust and everything and then YouTube it's just like was
cynic. Could say Google is professional
at distracting people, it's like that.
Yes, also very true. They're very, they're very good.
They don't do like that. You don't see like YouTube and
Google executive like fighting on Twitter, like Facebook.
And I think that's it. Like they're very and they just
like their PR team. Often doesn't respond or spawns
late, and I think it's an intentional Gee some of it is
like they're just a little bit there like cautious meet like
sort of the Google's of her click become a very conservative
company in like doesn't move quickly on and stuff but because
of that they just avoided scrutiny.
You know thing that I have the book is like season widgets he's
ever been testified before Congress heard of that was that
like people Congress don't know who she is and that's what I
kind of an intentional strategy. Other part of it is only people
in Congress. They're old, they use YouTube
like majority of people use your Jeep which is like It helps me
like, fix my sink right in like there is you to we have to like
a giddy. Is it like for majority people?
It's a utility. It's an idol entertainment and
like, but but it they kind of use it like Google search.
I think Facebook and Instagram Tick-Tock and Twitter are bit
more like Facebook particular. Like people have like, the sort
of weird guilty feelings about, you know, you tell you so much
sorry with my friends right now, it seems more enjoyable than
Facebook krusher know what people are like.
I Wish I would you post on Instagram not watching YouTube's
to be like jealous of someone or to style somewhat early.
I feel like so many the main use cases of, I mean, they don't
exist, YouTube is everything so that there are parts of YouTube
and people who, like, watch root like should religiously and have
parasocial relationships and like be strong ties.
Right? But I generally like, most
people like they don't have to feeling like Instagram by Night,
talks to me, friends, like I wish I didn't look at Instagram
so much. No one says that I get you to
really that's what's kind of Interesting about, you know, you
mentioned this Pew study that didn't even ask teens in 2014.
Yeah, whether they use which in one sense, you could almost
argue. Well YouTube isn't really a
social networks in the morning, the most pure sense.
So maybe it didn't make sense to put it on the survey back then.
But like clearly they that is wrong, it very much is a social
network. I was a 2014 is also kind of a
pivotal year for YouTube which we can get to later in the
conversation. But yes, at this point, it's
undeniable that YouTube sits very much.
In the same kind of strata as all of these social networks,
become more video-oriented Tick-Tock being the most obvious
example, like yes, it needs to be put in there and when you do
it, it is this be meth dwarfing, everything else by, you know,
significant orders, the American, Pediatric Association
puts a big report on media 2015, 2016, then digital media.
They looked too deep, like kids in media, didn't look at YouTube
at all. And I remember talking to Stan
authors, like this total blind spot and it's been a blind spot
and, like, research and In Academia along with journalism
and partly it's like YouTube. Another like YouTube is really
does not share data like it just and they don't have there's no
crab tangle for you too bright and so, go back to your question
are, like item list at. They always feels the most
recent one, I'm sure it's like maybe 600 now but I think it's
like 5:00 uploaded every minute which is mind-boggling.
You usually was leaning into podcasting more like, I like, I
don't have you seen this but like Pockets, like, yours and
ability. By the time this podcast comes
out. I will Have had a story.
Okay, month example. Yeah.
But like are like like one, click like be able to upload
your pockets as a video. It's just like, you know,
podcast long, right? Like that's just so much more
content. The great anecdote, I found the
book and I hope people re it and I'll is like one guy comes in an
engineering team, realizes like that YouTube stuff.
It's like a head like a private setting region like so upload
video and put on private, so no one can see it unless they have
the link, right? And he's like, Companies were
just uploading security, cam flow, my God and just like
terabytes of this stuff, right? And then finally, you to crack
down on it but it just like that.
Yeah, the fact that they just on they're sitting on their servers
and like they have enough money to sort of ignore this but right
companies would upload just security cam and you still do
that. I don't know.
I brought my I was told that they, I mean like that's also
useful for Google's, a data company and like video data, it
just because he said, it's a private doesn't mean it's Going
to be walled off from anything? Yeah.
I don't know the details there but I imagined you to be able to
like crunch that in there. Sir, I'll never work magic, kit
can I go before we get into all the stuff that you get into the
book on a personal level? Because we're all around the
same age? Yes.
And and, and I'm pretty. I'm ancient I'm older than I
look. Well, you look very young and
your author photo. Actually, I take that back.
You look kind of craggy. I'd like to kind of a wacky
author. It's an excellent, a photo I
love it and the hair. I don't know if it's enhanced
but it's spectacular. Our but no, we're all around the
same age and and I would honor hands get that on the record.
But both of you guys like what are your first memories of
YouTube? Like when it first crossed her
radar as a site? Because I remember very
distinctly mine and I'm curious with you guys.
I'll go, I'll start so yeah I mean so you know it was when I
was in college and like you mentioned in your book, there
was a very kind of scattershot and environment of video serving
sites out there, eBaum's World Myspace is still.
Kind of around. They were Megaupload boys or
something like that. Yeah.
And and then, at some point people were telling me because
Arrested Development was still a big show back then.
And you were like, oh, there's all these episodes are all up on
site and they're like, it's on YouTube and I'm like, you to the
like the band. Like, why would they be hosting
episodes of Arrested Development?
Like, no YouTube, it has like, it's the site that you can watch
videos on. And I mean, I was a little bit
late to the game. I think this was like two
thousand seven, but yeah, it was, and it was a professional
video, which we can talk, you know, me.
From a media company. So that's, you know, it figures
also into the YouTube story. But with you guys, do you have a
memory of when YouTube first? You know?
But I mean I don't think I mean I'm Prime by the book.
This is when you talk about but I do remember the Lazy Sunday
video from SNL being Sookie and then also that it eventually
like went away and it felt like so stupid because that was like
I was watching over and over again.
It was probably one of my most definitive SNL branding moments
of all time. The idea that they would Be shy
about. It was was insane.
I also thought it was amusing. The book just so you talked
about sort of YouTube reaching out to NBC and me like if you
have a problem with this, like we can take it down and it just
sort of like a lot of the bullshit well, to be clear.
That was, that was like Michael schaper, who was keeping his
brothers and Lonely Island's, throw, interesting.
Yeah, it was Michael schaper. Also, was he on Snapchat for a
while was here security? Okay.
Yeah, I've talked about before nice guy, and a great sort of
character from YouTube's really yours both.
But there's like a book character but also I think like
really give Mike a credit for like inventing a lot of like
they're only content. Moderation rules in the internet
that that didn't actually exist back then, but sorry to answer
questions under your sink. Some viral video about shoes
humor. This.
It's like one of those, like, let's get some shoes.
Yeah, yeah. It's like the same era.
Like, my wife is like, really into this.
We watch this little one, a similar one, that's like the not
now, bro. I'm in the fucking Zone.
Remember this guy like these ones that like, don't really
hold up. It's like a lot of a lot like a
lot. Hurley YouTube, like doesn't
really hold out. No, especially the stuff we
thought was funny and call. Ya, as I mean, Shane Dawson, we
can get in. But, yeah.
So, I mean, I, I'm also, I graduated in 2007, and I think
I, when I was talking to one of my most fun reporting, this was
like, talking to the early tubers, who were my age and like
Freddie Wong. There's a character in a black
and gray and he's like, you know, this like YouTube was
verse when he was in college in a film student.
Then like a lot of like the early YouTubers were around that
age like and Like the think tank, John Green are a little
bit older. But yeah and that was like it
was still, I think there's a really interesting divide and
YouTubers are more eloquent of this than I am.
But like between people who grew up watching TV and then like
YouTube was this rebellious thing and then like the
generation like Logan, Paul and like gen Z that like grip on
YouTube like mr. Be straight like didn't watch
those two pieces and watch TV. I mean, one thing that strikes
me, I think this is sort of a shared thread among a lot of
these tech companies, where an issue that things have become.
Some big issues for them over time.
They were like, extremely aware of early, right?
Like the copyright thing, like, basically growing on the back of
copyright. The fact, which I didn't know at
all, until I read the book was just the idea that they were
trying to make it almost like a dating site and running like
Craigslist ads. Get women on.
They were like, very aware of the porn problem, like these
companies pretend like, oh, yeah, we're trying our best, but
like, the people have been there the longest understand that
like, the issues are like Court, like Coral.
Here's how they built it in the first place.
It's often like oh yeah you big a you build a big Tech problem
product and you have all these problems but really it's like
know you rode the things that people are angry about and now
are trying to like clean it up later, right?
Or the dating site thing is also hilarious.
To me, I had never heard that before, but you write in the
book that it was kind of a riff on Hot or Not.
Tune in a cup. Yeah.
And and which again with like, Facebook facemash being the
inspiration for it, it just seems like In the early 2000s,
like the Horizon of what the internet could be, that was
where it was. It was like, oh, this could be a
way that we could like decide whether or not someone is
fuckable. The founders were under under
30, which is something to like, I mean, I guess they were like,
kind of close to 30 call them the PayPal be team, which I
enjoy. Yeah, that was not my term but
yeah, like I think, yeah, we didn't like the whole Pounders
in the comic story, which I didn't there's a lot there.
We've got Chad Hurley and Steve. Chen.
There are two of the key players, right?
Yeah. Third the third went to have had
like left for Google. Yeah.
And by the way a rare case of a internet startup, huge success
story that did not involve a lawsuit from among the founders.
Right. Didn't seem like anyone was
claiming credit that they didn't get there.
Something there was some controversy about it afterwards
about like the idea. But yeah, but like relatively on
glowing like the guy still made like 300 the one who left so
many like 300. Yeah.
I mean, he's like reappeared and is out there.
Very interesting ways. Like he, you know, the famous,
my favorite one is like, when you remember when Google Plus
was a big thing, like who will force it in order to comment on
YouTube using Google+ account? And, like job, ad posted the
first ever. YouTube video.
I'm goes back and like, I think the verbatim quote is like, why
the fuck are you to Google Plus account?
So he's like re and then he reappears recently when they
like took away the dislike count on like this, right on YouTube.
He was against it or what he was very much against it.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it to me.
But YouTube is like hope I could capture this in the book and he
was a hearty was a challenged reporting like you should not
not Facebook, not Twitter. There's no Jack.
There's no Zuckerberg Snapchat, right?
There's no, like founder, who's been there.
They like Jack has more or less been there the entire time,
right? Right.
Like you need like the founders and you were like interesting
characters but like and I think there's a lot there about like
the why they Steve didn't help issues like the Chad like ran to
like the the wall will to the Borg they left early on and then
like the second CEO which I love to talk to about.
Actually if you guys are interested in that howling
seller was so kind of a placeholder and so like in
YouTube sort of like these these executives are stewards Morad
many right then fat. And even like Chad and Steve
were like and Susan would kick you obviously runs it now.
I mean gets like the key intuitions wrong in the
beginning she was sort of like I mean I don't know if you say a
quite that but I mean she was like saying oh we need to sign
big. Heels and like, it wasn't
focusing on sort of the user generated content, right?
She was building Google video for Google mini.
Yeah. When of the acquisition, think
the calculus, which like just like to her like at the time
that was sort of like an seem like a smart guy.
He was right like oh we need premium stuff but it was wrong.
Is be, I mean yeah, big Google also.
YouTube also let like kept trying to do that for the next
six months. It wasn't until like 2 times 20
wasn't until 2014. When they're like, oh, these
like big influential stars in our platform might be Like where
we have commercial success, but they, you know, they've the
first Tom covered. Like, you know, the whole MCN
era was all about like that first funded Originals was like
we're going to get further and Shaq and Madonna and Tony Hawk.
And two YouTubers, we mentioned kind of the media companies and
they're very tenuous relationship with YouTube and
you brought up the Viacom lawsuit.
Why don't you explain the Viacom lawsuit and you know what it
meant and its role in kind of the development of the platform
icon comes, Sue's Google in March 2007, which is five months
after the YouTube acquisition. There's some reporting in the
book. You also check out there
interested that like I think Google walked in initially
bought with the acquisition, certainly didn't see this
coming, but like kind of knew something was going to happen.
And, and but just assume that they're going to have Inked a
deal with Viacom part of the reason that the Google, when the
Viacom cases because Google has even lawyers and had loan money
and like searches with just this constant oil, well, that gives
them a lot of money. But do I party is a good That
they like there was they found that by calm employees.
Like I CBS, I think, like, with secret, like using different
handles to upload the contents themselves.
The like Paramount Classics in the lawsuit, by comms like
YouTube needs to take us down this tired of material YouTube
finds out. It's actually like the marketing
team for CBS had uploaded. And so YouTube's offense is like
we can't according to the dmca like we can identify who has to
copy, who holds the copyright for material.
Huh. And No one can read.
They have this like three video tests which I talk about the
book. It's like they were just clicked
from the Stephen Colbert at the good Fox news clip and then like
one from a YouTuber and the like, which one do you take
which one like is copyrighted. And like, everyone posted
YouTubers one. Like that's totally fine but
turns out the other two were like one was like a fair use and
so it was fine. One was the company and uploaded
it like Comedy Central and uploaded it.
And the third one was the YouTuber was actually had a deal
with Carson Daly. So that one was copyrighted
material, right? So everyone got the answer.
Wrong. And this like helped YouTube win
the case you, I will go. Look at MTV.
Now I'm pretty sure I've been in the name of the show but like
the most popular, like, or the show on MTV is like, basically
to solve real, like a show that reviews play viral YouTube video
clips. I think yes, exactly.
Perfect example. The whale is how my come
certainly lost. Any of Viacom went out and
bought big con and like they clearly like lost that and
they've lost a lot of things are lost a lot of things.
But this was a but at the time like I you know was it a lot of
uncertainty about you to remember case where there's any
like you certainly the case with different correct Direction
YouTube that are gone Direction. There was I don't know who's
good for the world that YouTube one, right?
I mean, I don't know, most consumers would prefer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It provided centrality to it.
I mean, if you think about what internet video was prior to
YouTube, especially as far as the media companies were
concerned, you'd have to go to their it, you have to go to let
nbc.com/brita vo /. You know, The Tonight Show with
Jay Leno .html, I mean, it was a fucking mess.
The video players weren't very good.
There was obviously no social element to it, there's no
virality to it. It was the most anti-consumer
possibility you could imagine, of course, is very Hollywood,
right? It's in with YouTube being like,
a Search tool, fundamentally it's like, okay, you can find a
ton of videos. I think the other thing that was
interesting in terms of technology, that YouTube
successful relative to some of these other players was just the
idea that it was so much easier to embed, sort of The Flash
YouTube player in another site, which meant that it could go
viral on MySpace. It was just much more portable.
Oh my God, that the early. Yeah, I guess how much of
YouTube success is based on MySpace.
Would you like fascinating to me then sorry there's a huge
percent or right. I don't think I did that girly
on it. Like YouTube is like Road
Myspace virality. Like they just like right like
Most like YouTube videos and my MySpace comments and that was
something like Drew. Yeah.
And it's interesting again. How it didn't?
You know, like let's say, Twitter for example, there was a
time where you could not embed tweets into Facebook posts and
there was like, kind of strange non-compatible platform Wars,
whereas it seems like YouTube I could be wrong but almost never
had that problem. And I think that again speaks to
this idea that people don't think of YouTube as a social
network, or as a competitor. It's just like this utility,
exactly. Which is also why people I Think
seem to be less worried about, like regulating it and like the
public backlash seems much lower.
I mean, like YouTube has YouTube has been the only social media
platform that's really been right?
Like FTC find them in 2019 for children's privacy violation so
like it has been regulated. Sure.
I mean yeah, yeah it's not it's not a breakup, it's not concur
but like you know it seemed like Congress isn't going to do
anything so but that's the actually and it had like
substantial impacts on their business and Like how they how,
like, children's media works on on YouTube, but I'm happy to
talk about kid stuff to, it's like a central part of the book.
Yeah, let's talk about YouTube kids.
I remember that at the information was one of like the
big stories that we broke in, like, 2014 or so they were
working on this YouTube kids app, and why don't you explain
the origins of YouTube kids? And why, like, what was
happening, organically on the platform and why YouTube felt it
needed to like step in and build something specific for it.
Yeah, I mean, it was just an explosion of Kit material 1
2010. Lemons.
Are we? This is a bit then 2012 is when
they switched to to watch time. So they just switch from like
the key metric being views playbacks to how long people the
engagement and that had a number of significant consequences, the
central one being like the YouTube business really just
like, took off from there and then like kids content took off
there because like that stuff is engaging in, like, kids watch
for a long time. The iPad just came out, right?
And like there's Confluence of things that and the other day,
their main thing being that like we're talking about media,
Anything reluctant to go on YouTube?
Like kids media in particular, was like, super reluctant to go
on YouTube in part because of the restrictions, right?
Kapa children's online, privacy protection, privacy, protection
act. Thank you.
Yeah, and like Disney for instance, like, if I was really
you probably know this, but I thought it was interesting like
Disney was wreath like when the YouTube kids app first came.
So YouTube answer questions I guess there wasn't as big and
like toy unboxing became really popular.
There's like a lot of videos or long you That operated with the
like the sites for like people 13 and over like kids watch with
adult supervision. Like that's just how we're going
to operate, because it's like to legally tricky to try to do a
kid's version and then they're just became this like amount of
content that like sheer amount, they couldn't ignore.
And so there was a hundred walk was working.
He like kind of confused. He was like the main p.m. for
you to be left for health reasons.
Came back to work on this thing called YouTube for good, which
is like some more fish sort of like googly 20% project part of
what was like part of it was around like, We need to get
YouTube in the school's, right? Like this was there is and was
the time like the Khan Academy, right?
Like, YouTube math lessons like the green brother, like, there
was educational stuff on YouTube and it's more entertaining than
School, curriculum. Right.
Like there was a big blown opportunity there that it's a
separate story, but and that morphed into.
Okay, maybe we're going to switch to build an app for kids,
right? And I got to imagine part of it
is you know as a parent it's very enticing to just be To set
up YouTube in front of your kid and just have them watch stuff
for a while because you can put on Peppa Pig or some shit.
And you know, it'll just recommend the next one and you
can kind of go off and live your life.
But it is always scary as a parent because you never know if
the recommendation algorithm is going to fuck everything up and
after you watch Peppa Pig, it recommends, you know, like
videos of people in Texas, like exploding wild hogs, because
you're my favorite actor. Yeah, please.
So, like one of the rational like this debate about About why
YouTube kids. So you two kids was basically
like was not white label. There were, there were some sort
of selection criteria but it wasn't like a.
We're going to pick 40 channel near 100 channels or something
like. And and the rationale I think is
just Googled in general that I thought Google operates but the
other one was like, oh really popular video was like kids
watching trains planes. Take off for trains.
Take off right? Like I'm I don't know if your
kids do this but like this is Say I do this work but kids like
to watch this stuff and it's and I think this is like someone
who's high up, but YouTube is like well why would I restrict
that? Like, I'm not that it doesn't
seem like a thing that I would. If I'm if I'm actually going to
pick like children's programming, I'm probably not
going to think the like just pick footage of trains leaving
the station, right? But that the kids want to watch.
So like, why not put them in there, right?
And then the the clot like the predictable response or some
people was like, that's literally going to lead to Train
wrecks, the literal Trainwreck. So children watching train
wrecks. Uh-huh.
And so I thought that was great way of older.
I mean honestly it's like if you really want to amp up the
excitement here, it's like yeah, it's fine when the plane lands
but what if it does but I wait wait until I told Rex.
Yeah. Can you chart out how the you
like discoverability on YouTube has evolved over time, like, in
the beginning? There was sort of this front
page where people were trying to see what was cool and put it
there. I assume, you know, we get More
algorithmic. Now we have this sort of threat
of tick-tock like what this sort of human intervention on sort of
what is really being thrust in front of people, how does
YouTube's philosophy evolved over time.
Great question. Eric.
This was one of the I really like this is a part that I
wanted to hopefully capture in the book.
And is it like the tube was do sort of this like forgotten
history? And like alternate Pickers dream
which like YouTube this And basically like ons up to like oh
yeah we're going to like curate this thing right?
Hmm. As much as we can like
something. Yeah.
There that's your - happened. It would have been within the
sort of aligned with their principles that they were like,
yeah, we're we're a media company picking when people
should watch. So I think literally on that is
team the community managers that like, like they have manually
picked slots in the home page which was like in they were kind
of creative right things like they do this thing, they
rickrolled everybody like and they like found like Jack Conte
zipped. The founder patreon was like
discovered on YouTube by this team.
So you probably know the patron story, right?
He takes off on YouTube and then like two years later, he's like,
look, the economics are like terrible for me.
I'm gonna start patreon, right? I mean, I think if they like the
irony is that YouTube is since the past few years like with the
all the problems that were familiar with like kind of come
back to like half measures on this stuff, right?
Like so they have like a new shelf.
If you go up it's like, you know, anytime there's a breaking
news event or like they didn't surround covid vaccines.
It's like a shelf of videos from like Established news
organizations and health agencies, right?
And like I don't know how many people actually watch this
videos but I do like, you know, like there are a lot of people
that log that don't log in. You like visit a logged out
homepage. I like to by the way.
Every so often check out YouTubes homepage under
Incognito browser. It's just why what?
YouTube is pushing what it wants me to see.
Hey, it's just mr. Beast.
It's a lot of is really interesting.
That's fun. Yeah.
Well I'm curious where you at one point, there's a bunny suit
right now. You're right now.
Yeah. Right.
There's a there, one point it was like, you know, there's my
favorite YouTubers is matpat game theorist and he had like,
this was acting 2015, when it was like, Minecraft.
Was at one point like half to 75% of YouTube.
Oh yeah, mr. Beast.
Ed Sheeran tick-tocks people watch.
That's brewed. Oh my God.
I this is, I mean, this is I think Tara, to answer your
original question about the size of YouTube like it's just a,
it's a repository for everything in the space of like some of the
most popular YouTube. Now are like Tick-Tock reaction,
right, right, right. And I actually want to talk
about Tick-Tock in a second but I guess I'm seeing other stuff
here. You know, redacted.
Affidavit for a search of Trump's Mar-A-Lago.
Some CBS News they're trying to have some some real news
vegetables. I steer the conversation in the.
Can I my washer? Yeah.
It's like it's like I feel like this is like one of the podcasts
that I thought you guys we want to get into like do the grep
Google kremlinology for me. It's all it's because the floor
is yours Burger. Open to it, I think it's boring.
But okay, I'm here for you. I'm here for you more later.
What's going on in the Duma? Over that?
I think I'm glad you picked up on this set up like like they
they thought with a lot of the stuff girl that like yeah there
was a controversy couple of years ago where like some
YouTuber was like. Look at all these paedophile
comments. You have beneath videos of like
girls doing gymnastics, right, right?
And like a was like this big Freak out like that was like,
like, it's in the Viacom lawsuit.
There's like the YouTube manual from like 2007.
It's like telling their, like telling their moderators, how to
handle content. It's like, avoid playlists of
children for this reason. Like this was 12 years ago or 15
years ago, right? So, like I think part of the
problem for YouTube, that that's really interesting is like that.
He doesn't have a lot of institutional knowledge in part
because it spends a lot of turnover.
And when Susan was just YouTube, Neighbor.
It was a total surprise, she was moved to.
There's some new and interesting stuff about why she went there
in the book. Encourage people to read, people
thought she sure was gonna take over so seller.
Come on. Our was the not actual CEO and
learned only Susan's, the real, the only ever see of YouTube
Google but Saul are was the spp who ran Google Randy tube.
And this year was his number two and and Saul are effectively was
checked out starting late 2012 or 2013 and so everyone expected
Surety I think leaders this year.
What's he do now? He runs Koda.
Oh yeah, Buzzy sort of excel. You can read that story.
Yeah, I did. Yeah.
Are you just seeing that one up for me threesome?
No, Erica Erica. So many scoops.
He doesn't remember. All of the.
I've never even seen the product.
To me, it's just like, oh, big number.
I love big numbers and any, but I mean, yeah, and then like a
management team is basically leaves.
And then she had the unfortunate, Judy look.
First VP of engineering dies of cancer, but like most of them
left. They were like, super loyal to
shear and kind of pissed off about it.
They got like layered in, they like thought this was like,
here's his Google like there was this sort of interesting tension
between like YouTube has its own like, kind of like we're the,
like, like hustling JV team that never gets enough love from
Google. And then like these Google Big
Shots, come in and like, she brought in like no Neil Mahon
who's number two now and like she brought in like see your
People and to people, then I think that's like a real like
basically she joins she's quickly like going on maternity
leave and then like her entire staff, basically, an entire
staff. But like most of her leadership,
leave and I feel like, that's really where you are.
You talking to you like early late 2014?
Early 2015. And then like shit hits the fan
and to like I think a lot of institutional knowledge, I'm not
drawing an excuse for the company.
It's a terribly but like there was a lot of institutional
knowledge that Like just went out the door because there's
been like such a high turnover and looking around these key
moments like right before drum. So that was my girl Gremlin
ology. How is that what motivates
Susan? Like what what would you say
like is she's sort of like a get shit done for the Google higher
up. She's sort of like a True
Believer in store. The democratizing thing I like
is there any sort of like I don't know?
Does she have like a worldview that she's bringing to these
conversations or like do you have a So that the thing I will
add to that too. Is one of the things that has
fascinated me. You not as a YouTube reporter,
but just, as a media reporter watching this company is, she
seems fixated on making it as much of a media property as
possible pushing through things like the YouTube Cable Bundle,
which the world did not need it, all red, and, and YouTube red.
I mean, she in one sense, she's like an extension of this Google
founding arm and is like, very much a product of Silicon Valley
and then at the same time as like, pushing through these
like, very Old-school, bundles, and not necessary subscription
products that I find perplexing. So, yeah.
You know, we don't understand or what what's our deal and can
talk to someone in quitting a book.
I think anonymously, which is the fun part about writing
books. As you can do that as like I
work with her for like many years in.
The can't tell you at all what she thinks.
I mean, so one thing that she's been described as like fiery
she's like super willing to like lean trusting lieutenants and
like but then dictate I think some of the strategy Tom to your
is like a little bit of like Robert cancel and you'll Mohan
have a lot of power. Robert cancels their head of
business. Neil is our head of product.
Yeah. So sorry.
Like I think there's some this like, you know, it just I
remember talking to an engineer who walked and they were saying
like yeah you so much just like we got to like clearing like
you're tweaking the system to get watch time and they call it
a value. Watch time with this is like
really amorphous thing but then when they were running YouTube
Originals, as like, you do Originals was like a known drag
on wash times, people's didn't watch it.
This was like there. Netflix competitor.
They were trying to get the original series.
They had Cobra. Kai should like honest, they're
big success and then they had like PewDiePie, which was their
big mess, even that was a good drag on it.
Like didn't lead in water wash time because there's not a lot
of people that, like, the confusing thing for me to be on
this team, like Hank Green made this point, so I can't get
credit is like YouTube, has YouTube premium, which I pay
for? Because one I just was like,
grandfathered in from Google Play music but to like, I watch
a lot of YouTube and there's no ads and amazing and I just
thought like YouTube music is just The same library of
Spotify. Just, we got General and
basically, but did you never hear you to talk about this,
right? And like they have the world's
largest army of influencers, like, if they wanted to, and it
made Financial sense like they would have YouTubers telling the
audience, like, subscribe to premium.
But like clearly the margins on ads business is better than
premium. I think, I think there's like
General sense from from some people at the company.
Has your have to Tom that like Susan think it's like less.
Or what her marching orders and strategy is, you know, like more
recently, it's been like the four hours of responsibility,
right? Like that sort of basically like
don't regulate us like we're doing our job here.
Like don't leave us a like, she's basically like her job and
I think it'll be really interesting to see like if she
sticks around but like the next five years, when there'll be
less dealing with what sort of chaos her job.
Yes, SS chaos. Okay, and less chaos.
Didn't like an Advertiser boycott and like Trump.
Sure. Maybe Trump wins again.
But like different kind of pressure.
So I think like her job, it's like hard to see what her
priorities are. Because when she came on so much
of it was stereo the, by the amazing stories that I talk
about in the book. And then, like, I think so much
for priorities than, like, writing the ship, but I do think
there's this really. I like surprising, it was
tension between like, what Susan thinks that YouTube is, and what
it actually is like, and, and inside YouTube, they talked
about, like, the brand versus the platform, like, the brand
is, like fuzzy lovable. Like, you know, Like look at all
their marketing materials, right?
And the platform is the platform, and right?
I have no idea what the brand is.
I mean, there's a great point in the book where you talk about
the sort of marketing strategy meeting right in the beginning
where they're about align with Pewdiepie.
The word is come down from on high, like Susan said, okay.
We're gonna actually acknowledge this guy.
Who's like, what the biggest crater on our platform and then
like almost the exact same timing?
You know, this Mass shooter Sort of tells people to subscribe to
PewDiePie. I mean, I don't know.
Like who keeps saying the n word?
Hey guys, got a real n-word thing.
Yeah. And he definitely I don't think
he's on the past few years. No, where's cleaned up?
Right? Yeah, it's sort of he's is he
still a big, he's personality or what's this?
He still time, he's so bad. He's definitely stuff.
We cleaned up. He's like he stayed.
He's like, stay below the radar. I think.
I mean, I think he still draws. I'm like, millions of views per
video. While all the PewDiePie army
people mr. Mr. Beast is effectively, so
plan on him as like, who's a much more benign?
Right safer. He's safer.
Oh my God. Yeah, you too mister.
I mean, I like I'm kind of regret, not putting a lot of mr.
B stuff in there but I can't like mr.
Bean is fascinating to me. I care about the internal
politics to the extent. I want understand like you know
why YouTube wasn't more worried about the rise of sort of this
like coded sort of fascist. All right thing that they were
Ruling when it seems like, especially like the YouTube
world is like sort of Normie Libs situation.
So I don't I'm like, oh, where they, it's a super into like
Freedom. Why did this happen?
Like why why I like, yeah. I'm not saying sensor everybody
I'm saying but certainly don't tip the thumb in terms of
getting people towards this sort of like, wink, wink 4chan, sort
of sensibility. I wrote the book to be a time,
very dark, the comedic because I find that like story to be
pretty hilarious, The sense of like this, Google is like the
quintessential like liberal values and they have this
certainly like during the Obama hair out like company.
The only major platform run by a woman they've come out and there
might be more like their maternal presentations.
I would, we should learn need more and gender Equity, because
we have become female CEO. They haven't like she's not
Cheryl, like they haven't done that.
I think that's, that's the answer to some of the Season,
like she's a great Banks just you can private person.
So like button, vicious enough to want to run this thing.
I mean like that was a question that people kept asking me And I
don't have an answer is why this you still want to do this job?
Look she has enough money. It's just another political they
do. You agree with my assessment
that they were asleep at the wheel on cert like now now
they're doing it or it's just so I think there was soup with the
wheel. I think there was just not like
someone described it to me, it's like their world.
Like it's not, you know, they didn't like you don't in
Atherton like that. Again, you don't run into like
this, like that's ever brand of conservatism, right?
Like it was, I think it was buried in the book, sorry, just
a fight with you a little bit like, In the book.
Like you're very clear that you know, the marketing people are
super exposed to why bats, the bad stuff that's happening.
Like there are people YouTube paid to be very aware.
They you say like, oh they would literally make sure whatever.
Innocuous tweet, they're putting out, doesn't invoke the, like,
terrible thing on YouTube of the day.
So the company is monitoring this stuff, right?
How many should know. But, yes, but that all that, all
those are like to, like, avoid, like, they're there.
Tragic Heroes like avoid any problem, right?
Avoid brand like a boy and like I think so, too.
I think some of it is like this is around regulatory issues like
we and they, like, they were aware of the conservative bias,
complaints coming around. And I think there was like, a
execs from that loud. I think people need to believe
the same thing to like are our user base is not like us like
you know it's just like Facebook cuz I think those are in this
but I think it's the same thing at Google.
Like okay we are like we were in Liberal bubble like after the
Breitbart got that video from the Sixteen election at Google
which I think is really revealing a fascinating and like
Sundar pichai Google CEOs, like, hmm.
Like I need to look at the data more, but like, clearly, like
we're not feeding people, the right information there was this
really like. And I think even after 2020,
people are like, wow, like the world is not like us.
Like, you know, who this, there's a whole world out there
who use our products that are not like us.
And so, therefore, we need to be like, we, like, and I peep is
not the perfect simple. Like Steven Crowder the
conservative YouTube stars are much better, conical example,
like Steven Crowder is very popular, like are we really
composing our liberal values, you know, I think there it just
it's an extension of the the same conversation.
They had when YouTube had its first controversy of the broad.
Like are we proposing American values on Thailand and like when
we're doing contact moderation, decisions Global.
So I think that's is true. It's I've seen your face Erica.
Do like they it's a little bit of a.
I mean my response would be number one, not to act.
Their bias is towards not like Google itself.
Like the search in a certain way is like a truth surfacing
machine. Like this is a company that is
knows that it needs to deliver you.
Actual facts not just popular links then they run a video site
in there like fuck it. Like let's just like I mean and
now you're saying some K. Now they have news things on the
homepage and stuff that mr. Beast is their top, but like it
seems so late. Like, I feel like the tech class
hates on a reporter's, but Feels like they're embracing the sort
of, like, what are you doing? Which we were saying, like a
decade ago, as you know, it's like, what year is this like and
Crowder? By the way, Crowder is such a
fascinating example for you to bring up Mark because I know
there was the issue where he was, you know, this YouTube
personality, Carlos Massa, who is kind of a journalist had put
together a compilation of all the times.
That Steven Crowder had attacked him for being gay and I can tell
you why I decided not to put this in length.
In my booktube though, I'm deaf, I don't wanna hear that.
But but so, My recollection of that whole episode was that he
had this very viral video showing all the times that
Crowder had attacked him trying to get this guy kicked off of
YouTube at the very least, or or demonetised and YouTube's
response to this was like we are aware of YouTube on YouTube
criticism and attacks. We want to make sure that we do
everything. We it like they didn't make it
specific to crowd or they'd make it specific to our obeah.
They didn't make it specific to the politics here.
There were just like this seems like it's an internee, seen
YouTuber fight. We're going to do what we can to
make sure everyone's nice to each other they completely.
Avoid the central part of the issue and no one seems happy
conserves. They're still mad at YouTube.
Liberals feel like they're, you know, being pussies and yeah.
And you know, it's just like a classic Silicon Valley, ball
kick, or you know what I mean by kicking the can and assuming
that they've solved the problem. Yes, I think it was it was a
great example of them, like something that happens,
consistently running like make a decision but ends up, like,
feeling that one, but why did you keep it out?
Or what did you decide what I mean in part in?
Like it was just like to see both of them so clearly but
there's a lot of confusing and over Epic storyline, which is
parties like the captured, just like how chaotic the world of
the and multifaceted the world of YouTube is at some point.
It was like, yeah, this is came in thinking like page 350 or
something. Is like it has like a little
like a readers to introduce these like Skyline.
I thought you meant there was some like I the story isn't what
you believe, right? Turned out.
They were all lies Crowder's actually a good guy.
Yeah, I mean I do think like I really like if you ever tried to
write a long book. Yeah, m.
But I also like I think you certainly like YouTube's calm
seemed I think one time at a point at right?
This is fine for me to share but like was like I'm not sure who
behave more like who bothers us more, right?
Like redder than as I think they're like what's wrong with
Mazda? I think just a way to tactics
that he did it, I think really and he also have like I mean
he's stood on it and he's like criticizes YouTube but just like
that's like it's really leans in like YouTube.
Has this tolerance for like creators like being willing to
criticize them up to a certain point.
I think and I think that was just like a nausea and headache,
but like that. So they don't know.
They were others. The more, the like, blatantly
homophobic arch-conservative, right.
Goes on campuses, right? Attacking gay people and like
trans people are the guy who were the one that criticizes
them in Chrome. I mean, like he describes no
trust in these people whatsoever.
Like so Crowder like has like, you know, like Ted Cruz.
Come like, he's like, he's like, you could Zucker ears to hear,
Let me let his accountable. Like the YouTube people are like
cow. Words, right?
Like if it also, Crowder is such a fucking loser, too.
Like, why would you be afraid? Sorry, let's let Mark respond.
We settle. I, I think Riders which is
interesting and like, there's a whole series of YouTubers that
are fascinating because YouTube is like built fundamentally as a
product, the idea is like you can be on par with like TV,
right? That's the selling pitch like
thing about the commercial like they are interested in selling
advertisers. I'm like this is better than TB.
And so like they built this system where like, oh you can be
like a TV anchor. ER, and like have your own news
show. And then like Crowder's, like,
oh I mean listen to clip the he was recently taken suspended
from you to because he had Carrie Carrie leak, right?
Who's the like sort of election denying mayor's owner should be
running for office in Arizona and said, like the 2014 election
was rigged like ice ears. By my understanding is like if
she went on Fox News and said that, I doubt you to take the
right on YouTube. Now with YouTube says, we're
YouTube says, is like you have, you know, like this is like
fastening. I've no idea how they actually
had moderate this and but like, You know, these hips like well
on a new show like you're going to be ticked expectation to like
bring up the other side. So like well some people say
that it wasn't stolen retina Kreider literally gives her an
Applause during the video when it was it.
Yeah it seems like they're now that there's a Democratic
president like they're like oh the power has shifted so wheel.
Yeah I mean but they're also looking you like they're
probably knowing that the like the Congress has to make this
gonna flip. So I think on your
accountability I think you're absolutely right.
I wouldn't not going to Echo your cow.
Words saying that I did I say like you know this is a company
with to remind people like that is controlled by two retired.
Guys who like haven't made any decisions in years and then
every time Sundar is called before Congress like YouTube
barely comes up because there's so many other common, right?
And don't they release less data than Facebook about stuff,
right? I mean generally there's this
summer they're putting out. I mean part of it is just
structural like video is harder to mind and text I mean it and
to be fair the I did find it a little interesting.
Seeing you know, you you lead with the what the shooting but
like, yeah, it appears first on Facebook video, you know, I mean
it also gets propagated on YouTube but you know you know
all these volumes are so interconnected that.
Yes let me let me land on something that I think is simply
go back to the moderation problems.
Like so much, you know. YouTube is this thing called
whirling content. They're like these videos of
don't break our rules but we're going to wear like the we think
that they're trouble like ran up to them enough and we're not
going to like promote animal. Recommendation.
And so like it was, you know, that was before June 6th.
It was like any videos that for Trump or Trump supporters that
was like calling the question. The election were to they'll
YouTube's response was like we're not we're not like our
system is like we're not putting in search for not putting the
recommendations. You like really have to like go
out of your way to find these things, right?
And that's like a very googley. Like it's like the equivalent of
like putting it on page 12 and the Google's.
Right? No one makes sense.
Yeah, it makes total sense. But then like they and then you
looked at like Facebook's Report is to put out those transparency
report. It's like number one website on
Facebook by far of like youtube.com rate like and most
of its benign, but like, and YouTube will like have these.
These hilarious press conference room are like some of these
videos like went viral on like a certain social network
interesting. This this is funny wrinkle the
companies don't coordinate. As far as I mean like I think
they might coordinate but like the reason they don't coordinate
just because like they're under antitrust investigation.
Like imagine like cries of collision, if like the biggest
tech companies in the world. For coordinating around
misinformation. I was gonna say one more thing
and then we can go to tick. Tock, is that all right?
Yeah. Because you because we are
talking about, you know, the media's coverage of YouTube and
its various scandals. You have a chapter in your book,
about Elsa gate, which if my summary of Elsa gate is that
this was people uploading videos of often dudes dressed up as
Elsa from Frozen doing kind of bizarre.
Inexplicable things hanging out with children or just sort of
like wandering around on set. There became a whole Firestorm
controversy around Elsa gate, because there was this idea that
they were grooming children. The people that were uploading
these videos, which all seem to be very SEO optimized, you know,
gaming the systems that you could get as many views as
possible. We're part of a nefarious,
plots, you can Vince children to, like, I don't know.
Make themselves prey for predators and, you know, to me,
looking back on this whole episode, it seemed like
hysteria. It was very hard to prove
anything concrete. About it but I think it also in
my opinion fed a lot of the same things that you see the
right-wing talking about. Now when it comes to grooming
and and claiming that you know, having a teacher that's a gay or
trans is secretly going to turn your child into, you know, child
porn bait as someone who covered it during the time.
And as you read in your book, I mean, how do you reflect on lc8?
Simple question to end. Yeah, I mean I thought like
there's a really interesting interview.
I didn't get a lot of bit like I You get on the phone with Greg
Chisholm who ran this side Channel called toy freaks was.
Look at the, at the center of the attention and it became this
wildly popular show our Channel called toy Freaks, and which he
had his two daughters and like, got this of controversy because
he didn't, like he would play Clank Frank's in his daughters
and then some clips, like there was one that like, his daughter
was like, pulling a teeth and there's a lot of blood.
And like, from the video stills, it looked like she was she was
screaming with blood if you go back and watch the video, it's
like you know, he's filming his daughter like having a like a
Money truth issue. It's really wanted to, like,
weird to film your daughter and upload that amount like a right
for millions, millions of people, but like, you know, you
two built this tool, the incentivizes that right?
So, but, like, the actual video, if you'd like, then calms her
down and like tells her everything like seem to be like,
doing things that like this, like a actually good parenting,
right? So but they went.
So I think it is defense like these things were taken out of
context and sense of like a screenshot of that and then like
he actually like there were just so many videos that like
replicated his condo because they were so popular.
So So yes, Tom I think this was wrapped into and I didn't get us
all in the book necessarily but you're totally right and sense
of like it's become this. This like right-wing bludgeon
here that bad and whatever stand like a complicated world of like
what's the word to use for Bruner meant like grooming
Jonah, thank you. Yeah, at the same time like
that. That issue was less.
Yes, it got a lot of attention in the media and like James
Brown. Vidal wrote this medium, post it
like exploded, but that I that was less about, I think like in
Elsa, gate less about sort of the phenomenon of like people
dressing up, like kids or shooting.
Can the videos and that was more about like this automated where
I'm just a Content meal about that, like making things for
kids, making them by machines like irresponsible sort of like
called like Industrials nightmare production, right?
The other thing is look like to remember it.
A lot of these like YouTube does respond to Media, YouTube
responds to advertisers, and that crisis was because an
average Like an ad agency once YouTube and was like, what the
hell is this video that I'm paying like, $20 cpms for right
up? Like a kid in a bathing suit and
that's what's it like. So I think like, I will push
back and defend our fourth estate a little bit.
Like, yes, things were things were hysterical, but I think
something that maybe was lost and and that like to like that,
Elsa gate was the thing that forced you to make its most
significant change and the monetization thing and then
we'll get to tick. Tock is so important for all of
us because on the one hand, Hand.
I mean, the modernization on the fact that creators get paid a
significant share of AD. Revenue is part of the genius of
YouTube and parts of what gets all these craters to do stuff.
But then it should give YouTube far more culpability, because
they are creating the financial incentive for these people to do
Insane hacks of the human brain distributed by the Google
algorithm paid for by Google. It's like, it's like the you're
creating this monster, you're paying them to do it like there.
Totally culpable for it. It's not just sort of like
people do weird shit. It's like, people do weird shit
when they're chasing add money from you.
But anyway, so that's YouTube has.
This crater fund it's good in that creators can make a lot of
money. It's bad and that it distorts
human behavior and weird ways Tick-Tock is seems to be like
paying creators way less but then they just have such a good
distribution mechanism. That's even more.
Like, whatever the human mind desires, we will feed it to you.
I don't know where where How does YouTube respond to tick,
tock, or where do you see all this going?
I mean never use some time on your YouTube app recently, like
right there, where they're much more vertical videos.
I, we were just looking on ink. They like, yeah, they want you
to watch George like, and they're going to flip the switch
and the coming weeks, months on, monetization for shorts, and
there's an expectation there that like, they'll compete on
sort of, the pain creators again, Yak, which is she's, I
think they have it, like, for minor, send them figured, I
mean, Hank, Green, or you mentioned earlier has been huge
on. Yes.
Yeah. And like I think there's So,
Hank is in the book and people that aren't should make, but I
think they'll feel like the other thing that I find really
interesting in the book is that YouTube did consider sort of the
like a big did consider The Tick-Tock model.
Like they wanted to revamp their entire payment system around in
2017 2018 and paid based on engagement.
And now, it seems like they said they're going to do with shorts
is not so beautiful. If that kind of thing, please
don't be some engagement from a creative fun to Hank Green
aside. Like, you know that like the
more craters you get there, the smaller teach mouth.
Gets right. Like, that's right.
So we'll just the share relative to the revenue.
Tick-Tock is generating is clearly too small.
It's not just the mechanism. It's also right?
Just like the share of Revenue. Yeah, and YouTube sites like
YouTube will have, it's like unclear how they're going to
give like is if the ad comes after my short do I get the
credit or is it come before my short?
Like, you know, I mean like that's something they haven't
solved yet. As far as like, which Creator
gets the money from Jazz and and then like is it's like will
anyway? So that's I think they're
leaning in All in, I'm sure it's I think Tick-Tock is really like
to talk he's their first sort of to two-sided competition where
it's both competing for eyeballs and then or creators.
Hmm. I know you like a meaningful way
and we've always talked about how histograms are bending over
backwards to compete with with YouTube.
I do Tick-Tock and YouTube's to like, I think is savvier and has
less problems than Facebook and so can the bit more like
judicious and its decision decisions, but But you know it
is like a they totally abandoned strategy to totally pivoted to
shorts and like a few minutes and a few years and it's so like
the irony of like going back in early you to where it was like
the big YouTube hits were like mystery guitar man.
Making a one-minute video, right.
Like and then YouTube trained us all to watch like 12 to 20
minute videos and now like shorts are back in.
I mean there was this in really delicious tweet that YouTube
deleted or it was like making fun of a creator for posting one
video. As an actor, I was like the
best, right? I mean, if you talk to the kids
today, they'll call YouTube long form, which is like the ultimate
irony and, and maybe perfect encapsulation of where our
attention span has devolved as a species.
And you see people will say like, oh well, what Tick-Tock
figured out is like online like it's easier to post a tick tock
and the vine like mine to this first.
It's easier to post like YouTube at least creates incentives were
like, you don't just like, shoot a quick photo on your phone and
then upload it to YouTube. Right because it gives any
discoverability is a big issue there, like I could do that and
then no one's going to watch it, right?
Like I could post a bunch of videos of like I'm sure you post
this video on YouTube and like, you know, friends.
We're like Tick-Tock, you, like, you can hit viral, really.
You know what? It sounds to me, identical too
early to one like someone could come out of nowhere, like, Jack
on, they can come to YouTube. Let's wrap this up, but YouTube
has been like, if you subscribe on YouTube, you reach your
followers. Right?
In a way that Tick-Tock there's much less like sort of a vanity,
right? I mean, it took talk is
basically the discoverability algorithm made ultimately more
powerful, like infinitely more powerful.
Right there is like a subscribe, you know, intent element of
YouTube baked into it whereas Tick-Tock is like, let the
robots. Tell you what you want to see?
Yes, yes. I mean, I would think that.
Yeah, maybe you tips like I'm sure I'm sure they're trying to
figure out a way to do that like that you know with like one
thing they're exceptionally good at is getting like people to
keep watching, right? Like I don't doubt Google's
ability to do that, I don't doubt their ability to monetize,
but I doubt they're building to see unintended consequences
there are enclosing Bergen. Can you can you pull up
youtube.com right now and tell us what the algorithm is
recommending to you? We infer things to be?
Yeah, this is me, my embarrassing.
Can we infer things about who you are based on what the algo?
Well this is my like I don't think I've shared with either of
you my like recent fixations. When I grew up I I was obsessed
with basketball on it that really in the NBA.
So I just like watch basketball clips like 90s NBA highlights or
what you're talking about. A more recent more recent what
was coming out like and they I'm on fire.
I do like Key and Peele. There's like a Steph Curry clip.
There's a Spurs played beautiful game.
Oh my God. Peter teal America's most
dangerous, billionaire investor, mockumentary that's like do some
work. Yeah.
Think about tear some lame workout videos.
We're gonna core is Philipp. Frank was saying, YouTube is
racist where the internet is furious.
After Corey extension Phil DeFranco, it's that you guys
should try again Franco on your show.
Yeah. I liked it.
I mean it's been years but so I think is good at what he's like
my only subscription option and then I was trying to get my wife
to one Better Call Saul. So there's a lot of like Better
Call Saul content is watch Recaps.
I don't know. All it all seems pretty pretty
clean burgundy sound? Guy is NBA.
He likes his Fitness, he likes, you know, Prestige.
He's admitting he's omitting all the Elsa videos.
Yeah, it's about everything. I'm admitting all the, all the
weird, right? It just like more, like dank
meme reviews and prouder attacks.
You know, lib college student, do some of the things, some of
that in life, you know, my friends.
I didn't fix the on your on your few tube if you anyway Mark,
thanks so much for joining the book as a reminder is called
like comment subscribe. Describe inside YouTube's
chaotic rise to World Domination.
It's an excellent read to All Tech reporters and people who
want to know more about the world that YouTube is created.
So highly recommended. Thanks so much for joining me.
Thank you, we've gotta run a Bloomberg people.
So nice. Nice to see a former desks
neighbor as we're fun. Thanks for letting us talk about
Google kremlinology Arc. Goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.
Goodbye.