1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:14,000 Welcome. Hey everybody. 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,900 Welcome to Dead cat. Tom dote on here, joined by E. 3 00:00:16,900 --> 00:00:19,400 Newcomer just wrote a new comer make it true. 4 00:00:19,700 --> 00:00:23,000 Eric newcomer we got a very exciting episode today, joining 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,400 us today is Mark Bergen reporter at Bloomberg and author of the 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,600 new book. Like comment, subscribe inside 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,100 you too. ABS chaotic rise to World, 8 00:00:31,100 --> 00:00:34,700 Domination chaotic, rise to World Domination, did you most 9 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:37,500 hyped hyped book on this podcast, avionic. 10 00:00:37,500 --> 00:00:40,500 Rise to World Domination. Like how much pressure was there 11 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:42,300 from the publisher to really pump up? 12 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:45,300 You know, like the subtitle for a book, it's about an internet 13 00:00:45,300 --> 00:00:48,700 company, it was know, what are the original one out there. 14 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:52,500 I'll give you the Insight was and how you took over the world 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,100 conquer the world, okay? And then there was some concern 16 00:00:56,300 --> 00:00:57,700 that, that would be like a little. 17 00:00:57,700 --> 00:01:00,800 Like, I mean, I am super, I do What people that makes it seem 18 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,400 to intentional, right? The chaotic sort of made it seem 19 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,400 like it was like how they did it which is like, you know, also 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:07,700 true. Like people I think hopefully 21 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:09,200 people that are like super, super popular. 22 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,200 A lot of YouTube fans or people who like love to company in like 23 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,600 think they're the best thing would also be interested in the 24 00:01:14,607 --> 00:01:17,500 book that I asked, you know, I didn't want people to say like, 25 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:21,100 oh, this is just that I think there are some expectation that 26 00:01:21,100 --> 00:01:23,100 maybe they were right. There are those business books 27 00:01:23,100 --> 00:01:25,700 that are more, just like, you know, the rise to success and 28 00:01:25,700 --> 00:01:28,700 how you can be successful. If you follow the YouTube path, 29 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,100 where this is more, like, this is the site that has also been a 30 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:36,100 platform for some of the words. We wanted some chaos in there. 31 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:37,000 Right. Right. 32 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,400 And it was wild wild rides. But, anyway, Mark has been 33 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,400 covering Google for years at Bloomberg. 34 00:01:42,700 --> 00:01:45,200 How close were you to newcomer? And the office? 35 00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:47,000 This is a question I now ask people. 36 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,700 Oh yeah, we're just, uh, yeah, this is great. 37 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:54,300 Wait, I was certainly within earshot who was sort of like 38 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,900 diagonal. Yeah and we would often, I feel 39 00:01:56,900 --> 00:02:00,500 like I miss turning and might have like I'm just doing like an 40 00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:03,500 Abrupt right turn right? I can area was like one of the 41 00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:07,200 like love to talk and why wait when you're on the phone when 42 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,300 you're trying to get when you're older like post-mortems or I was 43 00:02:10,300 --> 00:02:13,500 always looking for office drama. You know it's like I do I would 44 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:15,800 be like I would often turn to him me like I'm suddenly really 45 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,000 good call right. You wanted to see me. 46 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,300 There's no one on the other side and I feel like we often. 47 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:25,600 I also, I was always trying to get Eric to in this city 48 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,100 understandably. Like sometimes past I was just 49 00:02:28,100 --> 00:02:30,700 like Maps is like the biggest, don't worry. 50 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:34,100 Yeah, I really like that was a game of Bloomberg where every 51 00:02:34,100 --> 00:02:37,100 reporter had like something on their beat that they thought was 52 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:38,600 the most important thing in the world. 53 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,000 And you have to make some calculation. 54 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,000 Like, even if I deliver on this, is it what's in it for me? 55 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,700 But Mark has been covering Google for forever and and I 56 00:02:46,708 --> 00:02:49,300 think you've been one of the most kind of Of reporters and 57 00:02:49,308 --> 00:02:52,500 getting inside, you know, the corporate drama there and then 58 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:56,000 now more specifically YouTube and I so I mean, which I'm 59 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,500 assuming is what led into your desire to write this book, 60 00:02:58,500 --> 00:03:00,300 right? I mean, like what, you know, you 61 00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:03,900 kind of in your, is it in your intro, like author intro you 62 00:03:03,900 --> 00:03:07,100 sort of say like no one's really done the YouTube book right? 63 00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:10,200 Now one's really taken the time to explain the origins of the 64 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,200 company and its, you know, chaotic world rise domination. 65 00:03:13,500 --> 00:03:17,500 Yeah, I'm I'm like a spiral. I consider myself a Google 66 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:21,100 criminologist and that's My favorite thing to do and maybe 67 00:03:22,100 --> 00:03:25,500 it's not like a super useful skill, but I like the Google is 68 00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:27,400 like a very powerful organization. 69 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,300 I feel like I'm more interested in like, how like works and 70 00:03:30,300 --> 00:03:33,700 doesn't work in the sort of. And anyway, so yes that was, you 71 00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:36,300 know, came in coverings, we 13 and YouTube was very much a 72 00:03:36,300 --> 00:03:38,700 Hollywood Story, right? So I worked for goes back, 73 00:03:38,700 --> 00:03:41,200 agree, code, and like, Peter kafka's phenomenal, media 74 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,900 reporter, like, got the like YouTube that side of the YouTube 75 00:03:44,900 --> 00:03:49,200 and the streaming and it's like whenever they butted he would 76 00:03:49,700 --> 00:03:52,800 and it wasn't really like a, it wasn't like the platform 77 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,000 contact. Moderation story was there, 78 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,000 right? No one was paying attention to 79 00:03:56,008 --> 00:03:59,600 it in bulk, that's in the pressing, the company itself and 80 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,900 it was after 2017, the series of crises and advertising play 81 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:05,200 cards. And all the stuff that ticket 82 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,400 for the point. That book, when I started to dig 83 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,700 in one, key moment was like a former YouTube person was like, 84 00:04:10,700 --> 00:04:12,900 you really didn't order to understand this, you have to go 85 00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:14,200 back to the bike. I'm lawsuit. 86 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:16,800 Like took. That's like where you two people 87 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,600 cut their teeth on that and like so much it. 88 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,000 Company in party, understand a company. 89 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,700 You have to go back to that. It's sort of like an order to 90 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:25,400 understand Google. You have to go to Burning, Man. 91 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:28,400 I mean the book starts off with like a shooting, you know. 92 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:33,700 It is a very dramatic opening and I think captures like the 93 00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:38,800 real world, dark sort of stakes for the company and sort of how 94 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:45,100 much tearing down, you know, the sort of elite guardians of 95 00:04:45,100 --> 00:04:48,100 information flow has sort of changed the world. 96 00:04:48,100 --> 00:04:51,900 And so I I think the book is very smart and sort of setting 97 00:04:51,900 --> 00:04:54,700 that up as the stakes and that's obviously a theme, we care a lot 98 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:56,700 about. So I wanted to get that in the 99 00:04:56,707 --> 00:05:00,300 readers ear but then before we get to that I think the other 100 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:03,700 thing that is very clear from the start of the book is the 101 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,000 YouTube is this like super important company that I think 102 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,700 that almost because it was buried in Google and alphabet 103 00:05:12,700 --> 00:05:16,100 and all this it hasn't gotten the heat that Facebook has 104 00:05:16,100 --> 00:05:20,200 gotten and you do a good job and I can you rattle Like how big is 105 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,300 YouTube? And like the sense that YouTube 106 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:25,500 is like actually much more important to the culture Than 107 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:29,900 People necessarily appreciate if they're not a young person sort 108 00:05:29,900 --> 00:05:33,000 of, I'm on it all the time but I still feel like somehow the 109 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,400 media hasn't really communicated, how big it is 110 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,500 relative to Facebook, to give a sense of size. 111 00:05:38,500 --> 00:05:40,600 There was a Pew study. Was it last week too soon. 112 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,300 Thomas like couple weeks ago. Yeah. 113 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,400 Like something I would like to hold teens 2014. 114 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,200 And for some reason they didn't ask him about YouTube. 115 00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:50,200 I like, you know, it was like, what? 116 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,200 How oft, what are you? What sites do you with social 117 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:56,800 media sites to you visit and with YouTube is 95% said like, 118 00:05:56,900 --> 00:05:59,000 and then like it was the most it was talk, it was above 119 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,500 Instagram. Well, they would like their 120 00:06:00,500 --> 00:06:03,200 other, like, and I think the prot like part of the issue that 121 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,200 like YouTube, It's answer question about why doesn't God 122 00:06:05,207 --> 00:06:07,400 as much scrutiny is because it sits in this like, weird nether 123 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,500 region where it's like, sort of streaming but not, if sort of 124 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:14,100 social media, but not like some of it is structural, we're like, 125 00:06:14,900 --> 00:06:17,800 you know, our desk like Bloomberg and other Publications 126 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,800 like the Google reported Recovers YouTube and the girl 127 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,100 reporter is you know, covering like self-driving cars and like 128 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,200 antitrust and everything and then YouTube it's just like was 129 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,000 cynic. Could say Google is professional 130 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,700 at distracting people, it's like that. 131 00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:35,000 Yes, also very true. They're very, they're very good. 132 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,100 They don't do like that. You don't see like YouTube and 133 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:41,200 Google executive like fighting on Twitter, like Facebook. 134 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,100 And I think that's it. Like they're very and they just 135 00:06:44,100 --> 00:06:47,000 like their PR team. Often doesn't respond or spawns 136 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,300 late, and I think it's an intentional Gee some of it is 137 00:06:49,300 --> 00:06:52,400 like they're just a little bit there like cautious meet like 138 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,000 sort of the Google's of her click become a very conservative 139 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,000 company in like doesn't move quickly on and stuff but because 140 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,600 of that they just avoided scrutiny. 141 00:07:01,900 --> 00:07:05,300 You know thing that I have the book is like season widgets he's 142 00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:07,900 ever been testified before Congress heard of that was that 143 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:10,900 like people Congress don't know who she is and that's what I 144 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:13,800 kind of an intentional strategy. Other part of it is only people 145 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,400 in Congress. They're old, they use YouTube 146 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,300 like majority of people use your Jeep which is like It helps me 147 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:24,200 like, fix my sink right in like there is you to we have to like 148 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,300 a giddy. Is it like for majority people? 149 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:30,900 It's a utility. It's an idol entertainment and 150 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:34,100 like, but but it they kind of use it like Google search. 151 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,200 I think Facebook and Instagram Tick-Tock and Twitter are bit 152 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,000 more like Facebook particular. Like people have like, the sort 153 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,900 of weird guilty feelings about, you know, you tell you so much 154 00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:46,200 sorry with my friends right now, it seems more enjoyable than 155 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,400 Facebook krusher know what people are like. 156 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,200 I Wish I would you post on Instagram not watching YouTube's 157 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,800 to be like jealous of someone or to style somewhat early. 158 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,900 I feel like so many the main use cases of, I mean, they don't 159 00:07:57,900 --> 00:08:01,900 exist, YouTube is everything so that there are parts of YouTube 160 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,900 and people who, like, watch root like should religiously and have 161 00:08:05,900 --> 00:08:08,800 parasocial relationships and like be strong ties. 162 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,600 Right? But I generally like, most 163 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,600 people like they don't have to feeling like Instagram by Night, 164 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,000 talks to me, friends, like I wish I didn't look at Instagram 165 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,700 so much. No one says that I get you to 166 00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:20,200 really that's what's kind of Interesting about, you know, you 167 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,700 mentioned this Pew study that didn't even ask teens in 2014. 168 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,100 Yeah, whether they use which in one sense, you could almost 169 00:08:28,100 --> 00:08:29,400 argue. Well YouTube isn't really a 170 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,700 social networks in the morning, the most pure sense. 171 00:08:32,700 --> 00:08:35,799 So maybe it didn't make sense to put it on the survey back then. 172 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:39,299 But like clearly they that is wrong, it very much is a social 173 00:08:39,299 --> 00:08:41,200 network. I was a 2014 is also kind of a 174 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,600 pivotal year for YouTube which we can get to later in the 175 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,200 conversation. But yes, at this point, it's 176 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,500 undeniable that YouTube sits very much. 177 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,600 In the same kind of strata as all of these social networks, 178 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,300 become more video-oriented Tick-Tock being the most obvious 179 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:58,000 example, like yes, it needs to be put in there and when you do 180 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,000 it, it is this be meth dwarfing, everything else by, you know, 181 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,300 significant orders, the American, Pediatric Association 182 00:09:05,300 --> 00:09:10,400 puts a big report on media 2015, 2016, then digital media. 183 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:13,100 They looked too deep, like kids in media, didn't look at YouTube 184 00:09:13,100 --> 00:09:14,600 at all. And I remember talking to Stan 185 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,400 authors, like this total blind spot and it's been a blind spot 186 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,200 and, like, research and In Academia along with journalism 187 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,400 and partly it's like YouTube. Another like YouTube is really 188 00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:26,800 does not share data like it just and they don't have there's no 189 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,300 crab tangle for you too bright and so, go back to your question 190 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:32,800 are, like item list at. They always feels the most 191 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,900 recent one, I'm sure it's like maybe 600 now but I think it's 192 00:09:35,900 --> 00:09:40,000 like 5:00 uploaded every minute which is mind-boggling. 193 00:09:40,100 --> 00:09:43,300 You usually was leaning into podcasting more like, I like, I 194 00:09:43,308 --> 00:09:46,200 don't have you seen this but like Pockets, like, yours and 195 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,000 ability. By the time this podcast comes 196 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,800 out. I will Have had a story. 197 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:51,900 Okay, month example. Yeah. 198 00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:56,000 But like are like like one, click like be able to upload 199 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,300 your pockets as a video. It's just like, you know, 200 00:09:58,300 --> 00:10:00,900 podcast long, right? Like that's just so much more 201 00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:03,900 content. The great anecdote, I found the 202 00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:07,600 book and I hope people re it and I'll is like one guy comes in an 203 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,000 engineering team, realizes like that YouTube stuff. 204 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,400 It's like a head like a private setting region like so upload 205 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,100 video and put on private, so no one can see it unless they have 206 00:10:16,100 --> 00:10:19,100 the link, right? And he's like, Companies were 207 00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:23,000 just uploading security, cam flow, my God and just like 208 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,500 terabytes of this stuff, right? And then finally, you to crack 209 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:28,700 down on it but it just like that. 210 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,300 Yeah, the fact that they just on they're sitting on their servers 211 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,300 and like they have enough money to sort of ignore this but right 212 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,800 companies would upload just security cam and you still do 213 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,300 that. I don't know. 214 00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:41,900 I brought my I was told that they, I mean like that's also 215 00:10:41,900 --> 00:10:46,700 useful for Google's, a data company and like video data, it 216 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:48,700 just because he said, it's a private doesn't mean it's Going 217 00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:50,500 to be walled off from anything? Yeah. 218 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:53,600 I don't know the details there but I imagined you to be able to 219 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,700 like crunch that in there. Sir, I'll never work magic, kit 220 00:10:56,700 --> 00:10:59,600 can I go before we get into all the stuff that you get into the 221 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,200 book on a personal level? Because we're all around the 222 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:03,700 same age? Yes. 223 00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:06,700 And and, and I'm pretty. I'm ancient I'm older than I 224 00:11:06,700 --> 00:11:08,300 look. Well, you look very young and 225 00:11:08,300 --> 00:11:10,400 your author photo. Actually, I take that back. 226 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,500 You look kind of craggy. I'd like to kind of a wacky 227 00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:15,200 author. It's an excellent, a photo I 228 00:11:15,208 --> 00:11:17,300 love it and the hair. I don't know if it's enhanced 229 00:11:17,300 --> 00:11:19,900 but it's spectacular. Our but no, we're all around the 230 00:11:19,900 --> 00:11:22,800 same age and and I would honor hands get that on the record. 231 00:11:23,500 --> 00:11:26,400 But both of you guys like what are your first memories of 232 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:27,900 YouTube? Like when it first crossed her 233 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:30,400 radar as a site? Because I remember very 234 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,900 distinctly mine and I'm curious with you guys. 235 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,500 I'll go, I'll start so yeah I mean so you know it was when I 236 00:11:37,508 --> 00:11:39,500 was in college and like you mentioned in your book, there 237 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:44,800 was a very kind of scattershot and environment of video serving 238 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:48,400 sites out there, eBaum's World Myspace is still. 239 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,800 Kind of around. They were Megaupload boys or 240 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:52,000 something like that. Yeah. 241 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,600 And and then, at some point people were telling me because 242 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,700 Arrested Development was still a big show back then. 243 00:11:57,900 --> 00:12:00,800 And you were like, oh, there's all these episodes are all up on 244 00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:04,600 site and they're like, it's on YouTube and I'm like, you to the 245 00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:06,700 like the band. Like, why would they be hosting 246 00:12:06,700 --> 00:12:08,100 episodes of Arrested Development? 247 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:10,500 Like, no YouTube, it has like, it's the site that you can watch 248 00:12:10,500 --> 00:12:12,700 videos on. And I mean, I was a little bit 249 00:12:12,700 --> 00:12:14,000 late to the game. I think this was like two 250 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,000 thousand seven, but yeah, it was, and it was a professional 251 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:18,400 video, which we can talk, you know, me. 252 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,300 From a media company. So that's, you know, it figures 253 00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:23,900 also into the YouTube story. But with you guys, do you have a 254 00:12:23,908 --> 00:12:26,100 memory of when YouTube first? You know? 255 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:29,400 But I mean I don't think I mean I'm Prime by the book. 256 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,700 This is when you talk about but I do remember the Lazy Sunday 257 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:37,500 video from SNL being Sookie and then also that it eventually 258 00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:41,100 like went away and it felt like so stupid because that was like 259 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:42,900 I was watching over and over again. 260 00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:46,000 It was probably one of my most definitive SNL branding moments 261 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,300 of all time. The idea that they would Be shy 262 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:51,000 about. It was was insane. 263 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,200 I also thought it was amusing. The book just so you talked 264 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,400 about sort of YouTube reaching out to NBC and me like if you 265 00:12:56,408 --> 00:12:59,200 have a problem with this, like we can take it down and it just 266 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,600 sort of like a lot of the bullshit well, to be clear. 267 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,300 That was, that was like Michael schaper, who was keeping his 268 00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:08,100 brothers and Lonely Island's, throw, interesting. 269 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,200 Yeah, it was Michael schaper. Also, was he on Snapchat for a 270 00:13:11,208 --> 00:13:12,800 while was here security? Okay. 271 00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:15,800 Yeah, I've talked about before nice guy, and a great sort of 272 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,400 character from YouTube's really yours both. 273 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,700 But there's like a book character but also I think like 274 00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:23,400 really give Mike a credit for like inventing a lot of like 275 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,100 they're only content. Moderation rules in the internet 276 00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:28,700 that that didn't actually exist back then, but sorry to answer 277 00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:31,300 questions under your sink. Some viral video about shoes 278 00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:32,000 humor. This. 279 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,800 It's like one of those, like, let's get some shoes. 280 00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:36,500 Yeah, yeah. It's like the same era. 281 00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:38,300 Like, my wife is like, really into this. 282 00:13:38,300 --> 00:13:42,000 We watch this little one, a similar one, that's like the not 283 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,700 now, bro. I'm in the fucking Zone. 284 00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:46,300 Remember this guy like these ones that like, don't really 285 00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:48,200 hold up. It's like a lot of a lot like a 286 00:13:48,208 --> 00:13:49,600 lot. Hurley YouTube, like doesn't 287 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,200 really hold out. No, especially the stuff we 288 00:13:51,208 --> 00:13:53,700 thought was funny and call. Ya, as I mean, Shane Dawson, we 289 00:13:53,700 --> 00:13:54,500 can get in. But, yeah. 290 00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:59,300 So, I mean, I, I'm also, I graduated in 2007, and I think 291 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,400 I, when I was talking to one of my most fun reporting, this was 292 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,800 like, talking to the early tubers, who were my age and like 293 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,500 Freddie Wong. There's a character in a black 294 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:10,700 and gray and he's like, you know, this like YouTube was 295 00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:12,900 verse when he was in college in a film student. 296 00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:17,200 Then like a lot of like the early YouTubers were around that 297 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,600 age like and Like the think tank, John Green are a little 298 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,100 bit older. But yeah and that was like it 299 00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:26,800 was still, I think there's a really interesting divide and 300 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,400 YouTubers are more eloquent of this than I am. 301 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,300 But like between people who grew up watching TV and then like 302 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:33,200 YouTube was this rebellious thing and then like the 303 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,400 generation like Logan, Paul and like gen Z that like grip on 304 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,300 YouTube like mr. Be straight like didn't watch 305 00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:41,100 those two pieces and watch TV. I mean, one thing that strikes 306 00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:44,800 me, I think this is sort of a shared thread among a lot of 307 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,400 these tech companies, where an issue that things have become. 308 00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:50,200 Some big issues for them over time. 309 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,500 They were like, extremely aware of early, right? 310 00:14:53,500 --> 00:14:56,300 Like the copyright thing, like, basically growing on the back of 311 00:14:56,300 --> 00:14:58,600 copyright. The fact, which I didn't know at 312 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,100 all, until I read the book was just the idea that they were 313 00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:04,300 trying to make it almost like a dating site and running like 314 00:15:04,300 --> 00:15:06,100 Craigslist ads. Get women on. 315 00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:09,000 They were like, very aware of the porn problem, like these 316 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,800 companies pretend like, oh, yeah, we're trying our best, but 317 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,500 like, the people have been there the longest understand that 318 00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:18,400 like, the issues are like Court, like Coral. 319 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,000 Here's how they built it in the first place. 320 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,600 It's often like oh yeah you big a you build a big Tech problem 321 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,500 product and you have all these problems but really it's like 322 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:30,400 know you rode the things that people are angry about and now 323 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,400 are trying to like clean it up later, right? 324 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,900 Or the dating site thing is also hilarious. 325 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:37,900 To me, I had never heard that before, but you write in the 326 00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:40,900 book that it was kind of a riff on Hot or Not. 327 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,700 Tune in a cup. Yeah. 328 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,400 And and which again with like, Facebook facemash being the 329 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,700 inspiration for it, it just seems like In the early 2000s, 330 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:52,400 like the Horizon of what the internet could be, that was 331 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,400 where it was. It was like, oh, this could be a 332 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,600 way that we could like decide whether or not someone is 333 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,400 fuckable. The founders were under under 334 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,700 30, which is something to like, I mean, I guess they were like, 335 00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:05,500 kind of close to 30 call them the PayPal be team, which I 336 00:16:05,508 --> 00:16:08,800 enjoy. Yeah, that was not my term but 337 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:14,500 yeah, like I think, yeah, we didn't like the whole Pounders 338 00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:16,600 in the comic story, which I didn't there's a lot there. 339 00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:19,000 We've got Chad Hurley and Steve. Chen. 340 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,500 There are two of the key players, right? 341 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:23,200 Yeah. Third the third went to have had 342 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,600 like left for Google. Yeah. 343 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,800 And by the way a rare case of a internet startup, huge success 344 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,400 story that did not involve a lawsuit from among the founders. 345 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:33,800 Right. Didn't seem like anyone was 346 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:35,800 claiming credit that they didn't get there. 347 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,100 Something there was some controversy about it afterwards 348 00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:41,000 about like the idea. But yeah, but like relatively on 349 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,200 glowing like the guy still made like 300 the one who left so 350 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:45,500 many like 300. Yeah. 351 00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:48,300 I mean, he's like reappeared and is out there. 352 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:50,800 Very interesting ways. Like he, you know, the famous, 353 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,400 my favorite one is like, when you remember when Google Plus 354 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,000 was a big thing, like who will force it in order to comment on 355 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,600 YouTube using Google+ account? And, like job, ad posted the 356 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:00,500 first ever. YouTube video. 357 00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:03,000 I'm goes back and like, I think the verbatim quote is like, why 358 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,700 the fuck are you to Google Plus account? 359 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:07,700 So he's like re and then he reappears recently when they 360 00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:12,500 like took away the dislike count on like this, right on YouTube. 361 00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:15,000 He was against it or what he was very much against it. 362 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,300 Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it to me. 363 00:17:18,700 --> 00:17:21,700 But YouTube is like hope I could capture this in the book and he 364 00:17:21,700 --> 00:17:24,800 was a hearty was a challenged reporting like you should not 365 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,500 not Facebook, not Twitter. There's no Jack. 366 00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:28,900 There's no Zuckerberg Snapchat, right? 367 00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:31,500 There's no, like founder, who's been there. 368 00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:34,300 They like Jack has more or less been there the entire time, 369 00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:34,800 right? Right. 370 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,500 Like you need like the founders and you were like interesting 371 00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:41,100 characters but like and I think there's a lot there about like 372 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:46,100 the why they Steve didn't help issues like the Chad like ran to 373 00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:51,000 like the the wall will to the Borg they left early on and then 374 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,000 like the second CEO which I love to talk to about. 375 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,500 Actually if you guys are interested in that howling 376 00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:59,000 seller was so kind of a placeholder and so like in 377 00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:02,600 YouTube sort of like these these executives are stewards Morad 378 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,500 many right then fat. And even like Chad and Steve 379 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:08,500 were like and Susan would kick you obviously runs it now. 380 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:12,100 I mean gets like the key intuitions wrong in the 381 00:18:12,108 --> 00:18:15,100 beginning she was sort of like I mean I don't know if you say a 382 00:18:15,100 --> 00:18:18,100 quite that but I mean she was like saying oh we need to sign 383 00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:20,400 big. Heels and like, it wasn't 384 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,500 focusing on sort of the user generated content, right? 385 00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:25,600 She was building Google video for Google mini. 386 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,600 Yeah. When of the acquisition, think 387 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,600 the calculus, which like just like to her like at the time 388 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,200 that was sort of like an seem like a smart guy. 389 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,800 He was right like oh we need premium stuff but it was wrong. 390 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,200 Is be, I mean yeah, big Google also. 391 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,500 YouTube also let like kept trying to do that for the next 392 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:42,700 six months. It wasn't until like 2 times 20 393 00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:45,300 wasn't until 2014. When they're like, oh, these 394 00:18:45,300 --> 00:18:48,900 like big influential stars in our platform might be Like where 395 00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:52,600 we have commercial success, but they, you know, they've the 396 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,400 first Tom covered. Like, you know, the whole MCN 397 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,700 era was all about like that first funded Originals was like 398 00:18:57,700 --> 00:19:00,400 we're going to get further and Shaq and Madonna and Tony Hawk. 399 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,800 And two YouTubers, we mentioned kind of the media companies and 400 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:09,000 they're very tenuous relationship with YouTube and 401 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,400 you brought up the Viacom lawsuit. 402 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,700 Why don't you explain the Viacom lawsuit and you know what it 403 00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:17,200 meant and its role in kind of the development of the platform 404 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:22,400 icon comes, Sue's Google in March 2007, which is five months 405 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,100 after the YouTube acquisition. There's some reporting in the 406 00:19:25,108 --> 00:19:26,300 book. You also check out there 407 00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:28,900 interested that like I think Google walked in initially 408 00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:31,300 bought with the acquisition, certainly didn't see this 409 00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:33,900 coming, but like kind of knew something was going to happen. 410 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:36,700 And, and but just assume that they're going to have Inked a 411 00:19:36,708 --> 00:19:39,300 deal with Viacom part of the reason that the Google, when the 412 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:42,800 Viacom cases because Google has even lawyers and had loan money 413 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,400 and like searches with just this constant oil, well, that gives 414 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,700 them a lot of money. But do I party is a good That 415 00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:52,300 they like there was they found that by calm employees. 416 00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:57,500 Like I CBS, I think, like, with secret, like using different 417 00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:00,100 handles to upload the contents themselves. 418 00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:03,500 The like Paramount Classics in the lawsuit, by comms like 419 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:05,800 YouTube needs to take us down this tired of material YouTube 420 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,300 finds out. It's actually like the marketing 421 00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:10,800 team for CBS had uploaded. And so YouTube's offense is like 422 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,000 we can't according to the dmca like we can identify who has to 423 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,100 copy, who holds the copyright for material. 424 00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:19,300 Huh. And No one can read. 425 00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:21,400 They have this like three video tests which I talk about the 426 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,600 book. It's like they were just clicked 427 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,800 from the Stephen Colbert at the good Fox news clip and then like 428 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,900 one from a YouTuber and the like, which one do you take 429 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,200 which one like is copyrighted. And like, everyone posted 430 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,200 YouTubers one. Like that's totally fine but 431 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,800 turns out the other two were like one was like a fair use and 432 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,000 so it was fine. One was the company and uploaded 433 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,100 it like Comedy Central and uploaded it. 434 00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:44,500 And the third one was the YouTuber was actually had a deal 435 00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:47,000 with Carson Daly. So that one was copyrighted 436 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,200 material, right? So everyone got the answer. 437 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,600 Wrong. And this like helped YouTube win 438 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,400 the case you, I will go. Look at MTV. 439 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,100 Now I'm pretty sure I've been in the name of the show but like 440 00:20:57,100 --> 00:21:00,700 the most popular, like, or the show on MTV is like, basically 441 00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:04,000 to solve real, like a show that reviews play viral YouTube video 442 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,700 clips. I think yes, exactly. 443 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,200 Perfect example. The whale is how my come 444 00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:11,200 certainly lost. Any of Viacom went out and 445 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,200 bought big con and like they clearly like lost that and 446 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,200 they've lost a lot of things are lost a lot of things. 447 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,200 But this was a but at the time like I you know was it a lot of 448 00:21:22,208 --> 00:21:24,600 uncertainty about you to remember case where there's any 449 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,800 like you certainly the case with different correct Direction 450 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,300 YouTube that are gone Direction. There was I don't know who's 451 00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:32,800 good for the world that YouTube one, right? 452 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,000 I mean, I don't know, most consumers would prefer. 453 00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:40,500 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It provided centrality to it. 454 00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:44,200 I mean, if you think about what internet video was prior to 455 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,600 YouTube, especially as far as the media companies were 456 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,300 concerned, you'd have to go to their it, you have to go to let 457 00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:53,400 nbc.com/brita vo /. You know, The Tonight Show with 458 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,100 Jay Leno .html, I mean, it was a fucking mess. 459 00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:57,900 The video players weren't very good. 460 00:21:58,100 --> 00:22:00,100 There was obviously no social element to it, there's no 461 00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:04,100 virality to it. It was the most anti-consumer 462 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,500 possibility you could imagine, of course, is very Hollywood, 463 00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:09,900 right? It's in with YouTube being like, 464 00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:13,000 a Search tool, fundamentally it's like, okay, you can find a 465 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,800 ton of videos. I think the other thing that was 466 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,000 interesting in terms of technology, that YouTube 467 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,900 successful relative to some of these other players was just the 468 00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:26,500 idea that it was so much easier to embed, sort of The Flash 469 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,100 YouTube player in another site, which meant that it could go 470 00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:33,100 viral on MySpace. It was just much more portable. 471 00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:37,300 Oh my God, that the early. Yeah, I guess how much of 472 00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:39,800 YouTube success is based on MySpace. 473 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,000 Would you like fascinating to me then sorry there's a huge 474 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,000 percent or right. I don't think I did that girly 475 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,600 on it. Like YouTube is like Road 476 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,900 Myspace virality. Like they just like right like 477 00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:51,100 Most like YouTube videos and my MySpace comments and that was 478 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:52,000 something like Drew. Yeah. 479 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,400 And it's interesting again. How it didn't? 480 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,200 You know, like let's say, Twitter for example, there was a 481 00:22:57,208 --> 00:23:01,500 time where you could not embed tweets into Facebook posts and 482 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:04,500 there was like, kind of strange non-compatible platform Wars, 483 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:07,800 whereas it seems like YouTube I could be wrong but almost never 484 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,700 had that problem. And I think that again speaks to 485 00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:13,700 this idea that people don't think of YouTube as a social 486 00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:16,200 network, or as a competitor. It's just like this utility, 487 00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:18,700 exactly. Which is also why people I Think 488 00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:22,100 seem to be less worried about, like regulating it and like the 489 00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:25,600 public backlash seems much lower. 490 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,100 I mean, like YouTube has YouTube has been the only social media 491 00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:30,000 platform that's really been right? 492 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,200 Like FTC find them in 2019 for children's privacy violation so 493 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,000 like it has been regulated. Sure. 494 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,000 I mean yeah, yeah it's not it's not a breakup, it's not concur 495 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,200 but like you know it seemed like Congress isn't going to do 496 00:23:42,208 --> 00:23:45,100 anything so but that's the actually and it had like 497 00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:49,800 substantial impacts on their business and Like how they how, 498 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,500 like, children's media works on on YouTube, but I'm happy to 499 00:23:52,508 --> 00:23:54,900 talk about kid stuff to, it's like a central part of the book. 500 00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:56,400 Yeah, let's talk about YouTube kids. 501 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,600 I remember that at the information was one of like the 502 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,300 big stories that we broke in, like, 2014 or so they were 503 00:24:02,300 --> 00:24:05,100 working on this YouTube kids app, and why don't you explain 504 00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:08,100 the origins of YouTube kids? And why, like, what was 505 00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:10,800 happening, organically on the platform and why YouTube felt it 506 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,400 needed to like step in and build something specific for it. 507 00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:17,400 Yeah, I mean, it was just an explosion of Kit material 1 508 00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:18,700 2010. Lemons. 509 00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:21,100 Are we? This is a bit then 2012 is when 510 00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:24,900 they switched to to watch time. So they just switch from like 511 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:29,300 the key metric being views playbacks to how long people the 512 00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:33,400 engagement and that had a number of significant consequences, the 513 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,500 central one being like the YouTube business really just 514 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:38,100 like, took off from there and then like kids content took off 515 00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:41,100 there because like that stuff is engaging in, like, kids watch 516 00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:43,100 for a long time. The iPad just came out, right? 517 00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:45,800 And like there's Confluence of things that and the other day, 518 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,200 their main thing being that like we're talking about media, 519 00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:49,700 Anything reluctant to go on YouTube? 520 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:52,500 Like kids media in particular, was like, super reluctant to go 521 00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:57,100 on YouTube in part because of the restrictions, right? 522 00:24:57,100 --> 00:25:01,000 Kapa children's online, privacy protection, privacy, protection 523 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:01,400 act. Thank you. 524 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,300 Yeah, and like Disney for instance, like, if I was really 525 00:25:05,300 --> 00:25:07,200 you probably know this, but I thought it was interesting like 526 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,500 Disney was wreath like when the YouTube kids app first came. 527 00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:14,400 So YouTube answer questions I guess there wasn't as big and 528 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,200 like toy unboxing became really popular. 529 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,200 There's like a lot of videos or long you That operated with the 530 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,800 like the sites for like people 13 and over like kids watch with 531 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,600 adult supervision. Like that's just how we're going 532 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,800 to operate, because it's like to legally tricky to try to do a 533 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,600 kid's version and then they're just became this like amount of 534 00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:32,800 content that like sheer amount, they couldn't ignore. 535 00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:35,800 And so there was a hundred walk was working. 536 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,200 He like kind of confused. He was like the main p.m. for 537 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,800 you to be left for health reasons. 538 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,500 Came back to work on this thing called YouTube for good, which 539 00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:46,300 is like some more fish sort of like googly 20% project part of 540 00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:48,800 what was like part of it was around like, We need to get 541 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,100 YouTube in the school's, right? Like this was there is and was 542 00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:55,500 the time like the Khan Academy, right? 543 00:25:55,500 --> 00:25:58,400 Like, YouTube math lessons like the green brother, like, there 544 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,700 was educational stuff on YouTube and it's more entertaining than 545 00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:02,600 School, curriculum. Right. 546 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,300 Like there was a big blown opportunity there that it's a 547 00:26:05,308 --> 00:26:08,600 separate story, but and that morphed into. 548 00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:10,900 Okay, maybe we're going to switch to build an app for kids, 549 00:26:10,900 --> 00:26:13,300 right? And I got to imagine part of it 550 00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:18,800 is you know as a parent it's very enticing to just be To set 551 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,800 up YouTube in front of your kid and just have them watch stuff 552 00:26:22,100 --> 00:26:25,500 for a while because you can put on Peppa Pig or some shit. 553 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,700 And you know, it'll just recommend the next one and you 554 00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:30,600 can kind of go off and live your life. 555 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,600 But it is always scary as a parent because you never know if 556 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,200 the recommendation algorithm is going to fuck everything up and 557 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,000 after you watch Peppa Pig, it recommends, you know, like 558 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,900 videos of people in Texas, like exploding wild hogs, because 559 00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:45,900 you're my favorite actor. Yeah, please. 560 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,000 So, like one of the rational like this debate about About why 561 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,300 YouTube kids. So you two kids was basically 562 00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:54,500 like was not white label. There were, there were some sort 563 00:26:54,500 --> 00:26:56,400 of selection criteria but it wasn't like a. 564 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,600 We're going to pick 40 channel near 100 channels or something 565 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,200 like. And and the rationale I think is 566 00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:07,200 just Googled in general that I thought Google operates but the 567 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,700 other one was like, oh really popular video was like kids 568 00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:13,400 watching trains planes. Take off for trains. 569 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,100 Take off right? Like I'm I don't know if your 570 00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:23,000 kids do this but like this is Say I do this work but kids like 571 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,100 to watch this stuff and it's and I think this is like someone 572 00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:28,900 who's high up, but YouTube is like well why would I restrict 573 00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:30,800 that? Like, I'm not that it doesn't 574 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,500 seem like a thing that I would. If I'm if I'm actually going to 575 00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:35,800 pick like children's programming, I'm probably not 576 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,200 going to think the like just pick footage of trains leaving 577 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,700 the station, right? But that the kids want to watch. 578 00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:43,400 So like, why not put them in there, right? 579 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,300 And then the the clot like the predictable response or some 580 00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:48,600 people was like, that's literally going to lead to Train 581 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,500 wrecks, the literal Trainwreck. So children watching train 582 00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:52,300 wrecks. Uh-huh. 583 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,700 And so I thought that was great way of older. 584 00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:57,100 I mean honestly it's like if you really want to amp up the 585 00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:00,000 excitement here, it's like yeah, it's fine when the plane lands 586 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,700 but what if it does but I wait wait until I told Rex. 587 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,800 Yeah. Can you chart out how the you 588 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,000 like discoverability on YouTube has evolved over time, like, in 589 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,300 the beginning? There was sort of this front 590 00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:15,800 page where people were trying to see what was cool and put it 591 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,400 there. I assume, you know, we get More 592 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,000 algorithmic. Now we have this sort of threat 593 00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:27,500 of tick-tock like what this sort of human intervention on sort of 594 00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:30,900 what is really being thrust in front of people, how does 595 00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:34,500 YouTube's philosophy evolved over time. 596 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:36,300 Great question. Eric. 597 00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:38,600 This was one of the I really like this is a part that I 598 00:28:38,608 --> 00:28:41,500 wanted to hopefully capture in the book. 599 00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:44,400 And is it like the tube was do sort of this like forgotten 600 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,000 history? And like alternate Pickers dream 601 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,000 which like YouTube this And basically like ons up to like oh 602 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,200 yeah we're going to like curate this thing right? 603 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,800 Hmm. As much as we can like 604 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:54,200 something. Yeah. 605 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,900 There that's your - happened. It would have been within the 606 00:28:56,900 --> 00:28:59,100 sort of aligned with their principles that they were like, 607 00:28:59,100 --> 00:29:02,100 yeah, we're we're a media company picking when people 608 00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:04,500 should watch. So I think literally on that is 609 00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:07,800 team the community managers that like, like they have manually 610 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,600 picked slots in the home page which was like in they were kind 611 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,300 of creative right things like they do this thing, they 612 00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:17,100 rickrolled everybody like and they like found like Jack Conte 613 00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:19,800 zipped. The founder patreon was like 614 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,000 discovered on YouTube by this team. 615 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:23,700 So you probably know the patron story, right? 616 00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:25,800 He takes off on YouTube and then like two years later, he's like, 617 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,300 look, the economics are like terrible for me. 618 00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:30,300 I'm gonna start patreon, right? I mean, I think if they like the 619 00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:34,000 irony is that YouTube is since the past few years like with the 620 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,400 all the problems that were familiar with like kind of come 621 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,800 back to like half measures on this stuff, right? 622 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,400 Like so they have like a new shelf. 623 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,800 If you go up it's like, you know, anytime there's a breaking 624 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,300 news event or like they didn't surround covid vaccines. 625 00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:48,300 It's like a shelf of videos from like Established news 626 00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:50,200 organizations and health agencies, right? 627 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,700 And like I don't know how many people actually watch this 628 00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:56,400 videos but I do like, you know, like there are a lot of people 629 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,300 that log that don't log in. You like visit a logged out 630 00:29:59,300 --> 00:30:01,000 homepage. I like to by the way. 631 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,400 Every so often check out YouTubes homepage under 632 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,000 Incognito browser. It's just why what? 633 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,700 YouTube is pushing what it wants me to see. 634 00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:10,100 Hey, it's just mr. Beast. 635 00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:11,800 It's a lot of is really interesting. 636 00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:13,100 That's fun. Yeah. 637 00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:15,500 Well I'm curious where you at one point, there's a bunny suit 638 00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:16,600 right now. You're right now. 639 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:17,300 Yeah. Right. 640 00:30:18,100 --> 00:30:22,300 There's a there, one point it was like, you know, there's my 641 00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:25,500 favorite YouTubers is matpat game theorist and he had like, 642 00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:28,400 this was acting 2015, when it was like, Minecraft. 643 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,500 Was at one point like half to 75% of YouTube. 644 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:33,800 Oh yeah, mr. Beast. 645 00:30:34,300 --> 00:30:37,600 Ed Sheeran tick-tocks people watch. 646 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:38,900 That's brewed. Oh my God. 647 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,600 I this is, I mean, this is I think Tara, to answer your 648 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,900 original question about the size of YouTube like it's just a, 649 00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:46,500 it's a repository for everything in the space of like some of the 650 00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:49,500 most popular YouTube. Now are like Tick-Tock reaction, 651 00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:51,700 right, right, right. And I actually want to talk 652 00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:54,200 about Tick-Tock in a second but I guess I'm seeing other stuff 653 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:55,200 here. You know, redacted. 654 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,000 Affidavit for a search of Trump's Mar-A-Lago. 655 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,800 Some CBS News they're trying to have some some real news 656 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,300 vegetables. I steer the conversation in the. 657 00:31:02,500 --> 00:31:04,000 Can I my washer? Yeah. 658 00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:06,600 It's like it's like I feel like this is like one of the podcasts 659 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,100 that I thought you guys we want to get into like do the grep 660 00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:14,100 Google kremlinology for me. It's all it's because the floor 661 00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:19,600 is yours Burger. Open to it, I think it's boring. 662 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,700 But okay, I'm here for you. I'm here for you more later. 663 00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:29,100 What's going on in the Duma? Over that? 664 00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:32,900 I think I'm glad you picked up on this set up like like they 665 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,800 they thought with a lot of the stuff girl that like yeah there 666 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,000 was a controversy couple of years ago where like some 667 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,000 YouTuber was like. Look at all these paedophile 668 00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:44,000 comments. You have beneath videos of like 669 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,100 girls doing gymnastics, right, right? 670 00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:50,000 And like a was like this big Freak out like that was like, 671 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,400 like, it's in the Viacom lawsuit. 672 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,400 There's like the YouTube manual from like 2007. 673 00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:59,000 It's like telling their, like telling their moderators, how to 674 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,700 handle content. It's like, avoid playlists of 675 00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:06,200 children for this reason. Like this was 12 years ago or 15 676 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,200 years ago, right? So, like I think part of the 677 00:32:09,208 --> 00:32:11,900 problem for YouTube, that that's really interesting is like that. 678 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,100 He doesn't have a lot of institutional knowledge in part 679 00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:15,800 because it spends a lot of turnover. 680 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,900 And when Susan was just YouTube, Neighbor. 681 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,200 It was a total surprise, she was moved to. 682 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,900 There's some new and interesting stuff about why she went there 683 00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:25,900 in the book. Encourage people to read, people 684 00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:28,100 thought she sure was gonna take over so seller. 685 00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:31,800 Come on. Our was the not actual CEO and 686 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,100 learned only Susan's, the real, the only ever see of YouTube 687 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:39,200 Google but Saul are was the spp who ran Google Randy tube. 688 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,000 And this year was his number two and and Saul are effectively was 689 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,900 checked out starting late 2012 or 2013 and so everyone expected 690 00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:49,300 Surety I think leaders this year. 691 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,000 What's he do now? He runs Koda. 692 00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:56,500 Oh yeah, Buzzy sort of excel. You can read that story. 693 00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:57,600 Yeah, I did. Yeah. 694 00:32:58,900 --> 00:33:01,100 Are you just seeing that one up for me threesome? 695 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,000 No, Erica Erica. So many scoops. 696 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,600 He doesn't remember. All of the. 697 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,300 I've never even seen the product. 698 00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:07,800 To me, it's just like, oh, big number. 699 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:14,800 I love big numbers and any, but I mean, yeah, and then like a 700 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,300 management team is basically leaves. 701 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:17,900 And then she had the unfortunate, Judy look. 702 00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:22,600 First VP of engineering dies of cancer, but like most of them 703 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,600 left. They were like, super loyal to 704 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,300 shear and kind of pissed off about it. 705 00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:28,700 They got like layered in, they like thought this was like, 706 00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:31,100 here's his Google like there was this sort of interesting tension 707 00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:34,400 between like YouTube has its own like, kind of like we're the, 708 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,200 like, like hustling JV team that never gets enough love from 709 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:39,800 Google. And then like these Google Big 710 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,500 Shots, come in and like, she brought in like no Neil Mahon 711 00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:47,200 who's number two now and like she brought in like see your 712 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,100 People and to people, then I think that's like a real like 713 00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:55,500 basically she joins she's quickly like going on maternity 714 00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:58,300 leave and then like her entire staff, basically, an entire 715 00:33:58,300 --> 00:33:59,600 staff. But like most of her leadership, 716 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,500 leave and I feel like, that's really where you are. 717 00:34:02,500 --> 00:34:05,800 You talking to you like early late 2014? 718 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,800 Early 2015. And then like shit hits the fan 719 00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:13,400 and to like I think a lot of institutional knowledge, I'm not 720 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:14,800 drawing an excuse for the company. 721 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,900 It's a terribly but like there was a lot of institutional 722 00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:19,800 knowledge that Like just went out the door because there's 723 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,199 been like such a high turnover and looking around these key 724 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:25,199 moments like right before drum. So that was my girl Gremlin 725 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,500 ology. How is that what motivates 726 00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:30,000 Susan? Like what what would you say 727 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,800 like is she's sort of like a get shit done for the Google higher 728 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,600 up. She's sort of like a True 729 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,600 Believer in store. The democratizing thing I like 730 00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:41,900 is there any sort of like I don't know? 731 00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:45,100 Does she have like a worldview that she's bringing to these 732 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,600 conversations or like do you have a So that the thing I will 733 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,000 add to that too. Is one of the things that has 734 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,300 fascinated me. You not as a YouTube reporter, 735 00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:56,100 but just, as a media reporter watching this company is, she 736 00:34:56,100 --> 00:35:00,800 seems fixated on making it as much of a media property as 737 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,300 possible pushing through things like the YouTube Cable Bundle, 738 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,200 which the world did not need it, all red, and, and YouTube red. 739 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,700 I mean, she in one sense, she's like an extension of this Google 740 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,900 founding arm and is like, very much a product of Silicon Valley 741 00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:16,900 and then at the same time as like, pushing through these 742 00:35:16,900 --> 00:35:20,500 like, very Old-school, bundles, and not necessary subscription 743 00:35:20,500 --> 00:35:24,900 products that I find perplexing. So, yeah. 744 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,800 You know, we don't understand or what what's our deal and can 745 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,600 talk to someone in quitting a book. 746 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,500 I think anonymously, which is the fun part about writing 747 00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:34,200 books. As you can do that as like I 748 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,700 work with her for like many years in. 749 00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:38,300 The can't tell you at all what she thinks. 750 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,200 I mean, so one thing that she's been described as like fiery 751 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,500 she's like super willing to like lean trusting lieutenants and 752 00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:49,800 like but then dictate I think some of the strategy Tom to your 753 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,600 is like a little bit of like Robert cancel and you'll Mohan 754 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,200 have a lot of power. Robert cancels their head of 755 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,000 business. Neil is our head of product. 756 00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:57,700 Yeah. So sorry. 757 00:35:57,700 --> 00:35:59,800 Like I think there's some this like, you know, it just I 758 00:35:59,808 --> 00:36:02,600 remember talking to an engineer who walked and they were saying 759 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,700 like yeah you so much just like we got to like clearing like 760 00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:08,100 you're tweaking the system to get watch time and they call it 761 00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:09,400 a value. Watch time with this is like 762 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,700 really amorphous thing but then when they were running YouTube 763 00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:14,600 Originals, as like, you do Originals was like a known drag 764 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,400 on wash times, people's didn't watch it. 765 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,300 This was like there. Netflix competitor. 766 00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:19,900 They were trying to get the original series. 767 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,400 They had Cobra. Kai should like honest, they're 768 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,900 big success and then they had like PewDiePie, which was their 769 00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:27,400 big mess, even that was a good drag on it. 770 00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:29,800 Like didn't lead in water wash time because there's not a lot 771 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,000 of people that, like, the confusing thing for me to be on 772 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,300 this team, like Hank Green made this point, so I can't get 773 00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:38,500 credit is like YouTube, has YouTube premium, which I pay 774 00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:40,800 for? Because one I just was like, 775 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,500 grandfathered in from Google Play music but to like, I watch 776 00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:46,300 a lot of YouTube and there's no ads and amazing and I just 777 00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:48,500 thought like YouTube music is just The same library of 778 00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:50,300 Spotify. Just, we got General and 779 00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:53,800 basically, but did you never hear you to talk about this, 780 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,600 right? And like they have the world's 781 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,800 largest army of influencers, like, if they wanted to, and it 782 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,900 made Financial sense like they would have YouTubers telling the 783 00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:04,800 audience, like, subscribe to premium. 784 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,900 But like clearly the margins on ads business is better than 785 00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:11,900 premium. I think, I think there's like 786 00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:14,000 General sense from from some people at the company. 787 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,300 Has your have to Tom that like Susan think it's like less. 788 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,700 Or what her marching orders and strategy is, you know, like more 789 00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:24,300 recently, it's been like the four hours of responsibility, 790 00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:26,100 right? Like that sort of basically like 791 00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:29,100 don't regulate us like we're doing our job here. 792 00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:32,400 Like don't leave us a like, she's basically like her job and 793 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,000 I think it'll be really interesting to see like if she 794 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,400 sticks around but like the next five years, when there'll be 795 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,500 less dealing with what sort of chaos her job. 796 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,700 Yes, SS chaos. Okay, and less chaos. 797 00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:45,400 Didn't like an Advertiser boycott and like Trump. 798 00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:47,300 Sure. Maybe Trump wins again. 799 00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:49,700 But like different kind of pressure. 800 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,900 So I think like her job, it's like hard to see what her 801 00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:54,500 priorities are. Because when she came on so much 802 00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:58,300 of it was stereo the, by the amazing stories that I talk 803 00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:00,200 about in the book. And then, like, I think so much 804 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,900 for priorities than, like, writing the ship, but I do think 805 00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:06,500 there's this really. I like surprising, it was 806 00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:08,800 tension between like, what Susan thinks that YouTube is, and what 807 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,800 it actually is like, and, and inside YouTube, they talked 808 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,800 about, like, the brand versus the platform, like, the brand 809 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,000 is, like fuzzy lovable. Like, you know, Like look at all 810 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,300 their marketing materials, right? 811 00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:21,700 And the platform is the platform, and right? 812 00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:22,800 I have no idea what the brand is. 813 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,600 I mean, there's a great point in the book where you talk about 814 00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:29,900 the sort of marketing strategy meeting right in the beginning 815 00:38:29,900 --> 00:38:32,600 where they're about align with Pewdiepie. 816 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:36,700 The word is come down from on high, like Susan said, okay. 817 00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:38,900 We're gonna actually acknowledge this guy. 818 00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:42,200 Who's like, what the biggest crater on our platform and then 819 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,100 like almost the exact same timing? 820 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,900 You know, this Mass shooter Sort of tells people to subscribe to 821 00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:53,300 PewDiePie. I mean, I don't know. 822 00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,200 Like who keeps saying the n word? 823 00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:57,300 Hey guys, got a real n-word thing. 824 00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,200 Yeah. And he definitely I don't think 825 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,900 he's on the past few years. No, where's cleaned up? 826 00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:03,800 Right? Yeah, it's sort of he's is he 827 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,000 still a big, he's personality or what's this? 828 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,800 He still time, he's so bad. He's definitely stuff. 829 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,300 We cleaned up. He's like he stayed. 830 00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:14,100 He's like, stay below the radar. I think. 831 00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:16,200 I mean, I think he still draws. I'm like, millions of views per 832 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,600 video. While all the PewDiePie army 833 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,700 people mr. Mr. Beast is effectively, so 834 00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:23,100 plan on him as like, who's a much more benign? 835 00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:24,900 Right safer. He's safer. 836 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,500 Oh my God. Yeah, you too mister. 837 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,100 I mean, I like I'm kind of regret, not putting a lot of mr. 838 00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:31,500 B stuff in there but I can't like mr. 839 00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:34,200 Bean is fascinating to me. I care about the internal 840 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,500 politics to the extent. I want understand like you know 841 00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:43,000 why YouTube wasn't more worried about the rise of sort of this 842 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,300 like coded sort of fascist. All right thing that they were 843 00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:50,600 Ruling when it seems like, especially like the YouTube 844 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,100 world is like sort of Normie Libs situation. 845 00:39:54,100 --> 00:39:57,400 So I don't I'm like, oh, where they, it's a super into like 846 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,200 Freedom. Why did this happen? 847 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,400 Like why why I like, yeah. I'm not saying sensor everybody 848 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,800 I'm saying but certainly don't tip the thumb in terms of 849 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,700 getting people towards this sort of like, wink, wink 4chan, sort 850 00:40:09,700 --> 00:40:12,300 of sensibility. I wrote the book to be a time, 851 00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:15,600 very dark, the comedic because I find that like story to be 852 00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:19,600 pretty hilarious, The sense of like this, Google is like the 853 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,000 quintessential like liberal values and they have this 854 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,300 certainly like during the Obama hair out like company. 855 00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:29,100 The only major platform run by a woman they've come out and there 856 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,600 might be more like their maternal presentations. 857 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,200 I would, we should learn need more and gender Equity, because 858 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,400 we have become female CEO. They haven't like she's not 859 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:38,700 Cheryl, like they haven't done that. 860 00:40:38,700 --> 00:40:40,500 I think that's, that's the answer to some of the Season, 861 00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:42,500 like she's a great Banks just you can private person. 862 00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:45,300 So like button, vicious enough to want to run this thing. 863 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,700 I mean like that was a question that people kept asking me And I 864 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,100 don't have an answer is why this you still want to do this job? 865 00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:52,900 Look she has enough money. It's just another political they 866 00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:54,200 do. You agree with my assessment 867 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,300 that they were asleep at the wheel on cert like now now 868 00:40:57,300 --> 00:41:00,600 they're doing it or it's just so I think there was soup with the 869 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,500 wheel. I think there was just not like 870 00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:04,900 someone described it to me, it's like their world. 871 00:41:04,900 --> 00:41:07,400 Like it's not, you know, they didn't like you don't in 872 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,000 Atherton like that. Again, you don't run into like 873 00:41:11,300 --> 00:41:13,300 this, like that's ever brand of conservatism, right? 874 00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:15,900 Like it was, I think it was buried in the book, sorry, just 875 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:18,000 a fight with you a little bit like, In the book. 876 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,400 Like you're very clear that you know, the marketing people are 877 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,800 super exposed to why bats, the bad stuff that's happening. 878 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,600 Like there are people YouTube paid to be very aware. 879 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,000 They you say like, oh they would literally make sure whatever. 880 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,500 Innocuous tweet, they're putting out, doesn't invoke the, like, 881 00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:37,300 terrible thing on YouTube of the day. 882 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,400 So the company is monitoring this stuff, right? 883 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,100 How many should know. But, yes, but that all that, all 884 00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:46,600 those are like to, like, avoid, like, they're there. 885 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,700 Tragic Heroes like avoid any problem, right? 886 00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:53,400 Avoid brand like a boy and like I think so, too. 887 00:41:53,500 --> 00:41:57,400 I think some of it is like this is around regulatory issues like 888 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,100 we and they, like, they were aware of the conservative bias, 889 00:42:00,100 --> 00:42:02,000 complaints coming around. And I think there was like, a 890 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,400 execs from that loud. I think people need to believe 891 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,200 the same thing to like are our user base is not like us like 892 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,300 you know it's just like Facebook cuz I think those are in this 893 00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:12,400 but I think it's the same thing at Google. 894 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,400 Like okay we are like we were in Liberal bubble like after the 895 00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:18,600 Breitbart got that video from the Sixteen election at Google 896 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,600 which I think is really revealing a fascinating and like 897 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,400 Sundar pichai Google CEOs, like, hmm. 898 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,700 Like I need to look at the data more, but like, clearly, like 899 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,600 we're not feeding people, the right information there was this 900 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,800 really like. And I think even after 2020, 901 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,800 people are like, wow, like the world is not like us. 902 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,900 Like, you know, who this, there's a whole world out there 903 00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:40,000 who use our products that are not like us. 904 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,200 And so, therefore, we need to be like, we, like, and I peep is 905 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,100 not the perfect simple. Like Steven Crowder the 906 00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:50,200 conservative YouTube stars are much better, conical example, 907 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,400 like Steven Crowder is very popular, like are we really 908 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,700 composing our liberal values, you know, I think there it just 909 00:42:56,700 --> 00:42:59,000 it's an extension of the the same conversation. 910 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,000 They had when YouTube had its first controversy of the broad. 911 00:43:02,500 --> 00:43:07,100 Like are we proposing American values on Thailand and like when 912 00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:09,500 we're doing contact moderation, decisions Global. 913 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,600 So I think that's is true. It's I've seen your face Erica. 914 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,100 Do like they it's a little bit of a. 915 00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:17,200 I mean my response would be number one, not to act. 916 00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:21,000 Their bias is towards not like Google itself. 917 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,300 Like the search in a certain way is like a truth surfacing 918 00:43:24,300 --> 00:43:26,800 machine. Like this is a company that is 919 00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:28,800 knows that it needs to deliver you. 920 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,700 Actual facts not just popular links then they run a video site 921 00:43:32,700 --> 00:43:36,900 in there like fuck it. Like let's just like I mean and 922 00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:39,400 now you're saying some K. Now they have news things on the 923 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,600 homepage and stuff that mr. Beast is their top, but like it 924 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,600 seems so late. Like, I feel like the tech class 925 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,600 hates on a reporter's, but Feels like they're embracing the sort 926 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,900 of, like, what are you doing? Which we were saying, like a 927 00:43:50,900 --> 00:43:54,400 decade ago, as you know, it's like, what year is this like and 928 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,400 Crowder? By the way, Crowder is such a 929 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,600 fascinating example for you to bring up Mark because I know 930 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,200 there was the issue where he was, you know, this YouTube 931 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,800 personality, Carlos Massa, who is kind of a journalist had put 932 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,600 together a compilation of all the times. 933 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,900 That Steven Crowder had attacked him for being gay and I can tell 934 00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:13,500 you why I decided not to put this in length. 935 00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:15,800 In my booktube though, I'm deaf, I don't wanna hear that. 936 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,900 But but so, My recollection of that whole episode was that he 937 00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:21,900 had this very viral video showing all the times that 938 00:44:21,900 --> 00:44:25,100 Crowder had attacked him trying to get this guy kicked off of 939 00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:27,700 YouTube at the very least, or or demonetised and YouTube's 940 00:44:27,700 --> 00:44:31,000 response to this was like we are aware of YouTube on YouTube 941 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,000 criticism and attacks. We want to make sure that we do 942 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,200 everything. We it like they didn't make it 943 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,000 specific to crowd or they'd make it specific to our obeah. 944 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,600 They didn't make it specific to the politics here. 945 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,900 There were just like this seems like it's an internee, seen 946 00:44:42,900 --> 00:44:45,100 YouTuber fight. We're going to do what we can to 947 00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:47,200 make sure everyone's nice to each other they completely. 948 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,900 Avoid the central part of the issue and no one seems happy 949 00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:51,300 conserves. They're still mad at YouTube. 950 00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:54,400 Liberals feel like they're, you know, being pussies and yeah. 951 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,800 And you know, it's just like a classic Silicon Valley, ball 952 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,600 kick, or you know what I mean by kicking the can and assuming 953 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,300 that they've solved the problem. Yes, I think it was it was a 954 00:45:04,308 --> 00:45:06,600 great example of them, like something that happens, 955 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,100 consistently running like make a decision but ends up, like, 956 00:45:09,100 --> 00:45:10,900 feeling that one, but why did you keep it out? 957 00:45:10,900 --> 00:45:13,000 Or what did you decide what I mean in part in? 958 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,000 Like it was just like to see both of them so clearly but 959 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,200 there's a lot of confusing and over Epic storyline, which is 960 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,100 parties like the captured, just like how chaotic the world of 961 00:45:21,100 --> 00:45:24,700 the and multifaceted the world of YouTube is at some point. 962 00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:28,100 It was like, yeah, this is came in thinking like page 350 or 963 00:45:28,100 --> 00:45:29,600 something. Is like it has like a little 964 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,200 like a readers to introduce these like Skyline. 965 00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:35,700 I thought you meant there was some like I the story isn't what 966 00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:37,600 you believe, right? Turned out. 967 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,400 They were all lies Crowder's actually a good guy. 968 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,800 Yeah, I mean I do think like I really like if you ever tried to 969 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,900 write a long book. Yeah, m. 970 00:45:47,300 --> 00:45:50,600 But I also like I think you certainly like YouTube's calm 971 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,800 seemed I think one time at a point at right? 972 00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:56,500 This is fine for me to share but like was like I'm not sure who 973 00:45:56,500 --> 00:45:58,600 behave more like who bothers us more, right? 974 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,200 Like redder than as I think they're like what's wrong with 975 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,000 Mazda? I think just a way to tactics 976 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,900 that he did it, I think really and he also have like I mean 977 00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:09,400 he's stood on it and he's like criticizes YouTube but just like 978 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,200 that's like it's really leans in like YouTube. 979 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,800 Has this tolerance for like creators like being willing to 980 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,100 criticize them up to a certain point. 981 00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:20,300 I think and I think that was just like a nausea and headache, 982 00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:21,300 but like that. So they don't know. 983 00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:23,300 They were others. The more, the like, blatantly 984 00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:25,600 homophobic arch-conservative, right. 985 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,100 Goes on campuses, right? Attacking gay people and like 986 00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:31,800 trans people are the guy who were the one that criticizes 987 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,700 them in Chrome. I mean, like he describes no 988 00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:36,400 trust in these people whatsoever. 989 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,300 Like so Crowder like has like, you know, like Ted Cruz. 990 00:46:40,300 --> 00:46:42,600 Come like, he's like, he's like, you could Zucker ears to hear, 991 00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:47,000 Let me let his accountable. Like the YouTube people are like 992 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:47,900 cow. Words, right? 993 00:46:47,900 --> 00:46:51,000 Like if it also, Crowder is such a fucking loser, too. 994 00:46:51,100 --> 00:46:53,700 Like, why would you be afraid? Sorry, let's let Mark respond. 995 00:46:53,700 --> 00:46:56,700 We settle. I, I think Riders which is 996 00:46:56,700 --> 00:46:59,200 interesting and like, there's a whole series of YouTubers that 997 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,100 are fascinating because YouTube is like built fundamentally as a 998 00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:06,100 product, the idea is like you can be on par with like TV, 999 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:07,500 right? That's the selling pitch like 1000 00:47:07,700 --> 00:47:09,800 thing about the commercial like they are interested in selling 1001 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,600 advertisers. I'm like this is better than TB. 1002 00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:16,200 And so like they built this system where like, oh you can be 1003 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,400 like a TV anchor. ER, and like have your own news 1004 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,300 show. And then like Crowder's, like, 1005 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,500 oh I mean listen to clip the he was recently taken suspended 1006 00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:25,900 from you to because he had Carrie Carrie leak, right? 1007 00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:29,800 Who's the like sort of election denying mayor's owner should be 1008 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,800 running for office in Arizona and said, like the 2014 election 1009 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,800 was rigged like ice ears. By my understanding is like if 1010 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,200 she went on Fox News and said that, I doubt you to take the 1011 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,400 right on YouTube. Now with YouTube says, we're 1012 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,100 YouTube says, is like you have, you know, like this is like 1013 00:47:43,100 --> 00:47:44,700 fastening. I've no idea how they actually 1014 00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:48,200 had moderate this and but like, You know, these hips like well 1015 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,800 on a new show like you're going to be ticked expectation to like 1016 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,000 bring up the other side. So like well some people say 1017 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,200 that it wasn't stolen retina Kreider literally gives her an 1018 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,500 Applause during the video when it was it. 1019 00:48:00,500 --> 00:48:03,500 Yeah it seems like they're now that there's a Democratic 1020 00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:06,700 president like they're like oh the power has shifted so wheel. 1021 00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:08,500 Yeah I mean but they're also looking you like they're 1022 00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:11,600 probably knowing that the like the Congress has to make this 1023 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,500 gonna flip. So I think on your 1024 00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:15,100 accountability I think you're absolutely right. 1025 00:48:15,100 --> 00:48:17,100 I wouldn't not going to Echo your cow. 1026 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,200 Words saying that I did I say like you know this is a company 1027 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,900 with to remind people like that is controlled by two retired. 1028 00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:28,200 Guys who like haven't made any decisions in years and then 1029 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,400 every time Sundar is called before Congress like YouTube 1030 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,700 barely comes up because there's so many other common, right? 1031 00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:35,600 And don't they release less data than Facebook about stuff, 1032 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,500 right? I mean generally there's this 1033 00:48:37,500 --> 00:48:39,300 summer they're putting out. I mean part of it is just 1034 00:48:39,300 --> 00:48:44,300 structural like video is harder to mind and text I mean it and 1035 00:48:44,300 --> 00:48:47,100 to be fair the I did find it a little interesting. 1036 00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:51,400 Seeing you know, you you lead with the what the shooting but 1037 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,100 like, yeah, it appears first on Facebook video, you know, I mean 1038 00:48:55,300 --> 00:48:58,200 it also gets propagated on YouTube but you know you know 1039 00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,300 all these volumes are so interconnected that. 1040 00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:03,400 Yes let me let me land on something that I think is simply 1041 00:49:03,500 --> 00:49:05,100 go back to the moderation problems. 1042 00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:08,300 Like so much, you know. YouTube is this thing called 1043 00:49:08,300 --> 00:49:10,300 whirling content. They're like these videos of 1044 00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:12,500 don't break our rules but we're going to wear like the we think 1045 00:49:12,500 --> 00:49:15,700 that they're trouble like ran up to them enough and we're not 1046 00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:17,700 going to like promote animal. Recommendation. 1047 00:49:17,700 --> 00:49:21,900 And so like it was, you know, that was before June 6th. 1048 00:49:21,900 --> 00:49:25,300 It was like any videos that for Trump or Trump supporters that 1049 00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:27,900 was like calling the question. The election were to they'll 1050 00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:30,800 YouTube's response was like we're not we're not like our 1051 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,800 system is like we're not putting in search for not putting the 1052 00:49:32,808 --> 00:49:35,300 recommendations. You like really have to like go 1053 00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:37,200 out of your way to find these things, right? 1054 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,100 And that's like a very googley. Like it's like the equivalent of 1055 00:49:40,107 --> 00:49:41,600 like putting it on page 12 and the Google's. 1056 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:43,400 Right? No one makes sense. 1057 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,100 Yeah, it makes total sense. But then like they and then you 1058 00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:49,500 looked at like Facebook's Report is to put out those transparency 1059 00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:51,400 report. It's like number one website on 1060 00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,900 Facebook by far of like youtube.com rate like and most 1061 00:49:54,900 --> 00:49:57,500 of its benign, but like, and YouTube will like have these. 1062 00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,700 These hilarious press conference room are like some of these 1063 00:49:59,700 --> 00:50:02,700 videos like went viral on like a certain social network 1064 00:50:02,700 --> 00:50:05,100 interesting. This this is funny wrinkle the 1065 00:50:05,107 --> 00:50:08,000 companies don't coordinate. As far as I mean like I think 1066 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,500 they might coordinate but like the reason they don't coordinate 1067 00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:13,200 just because like they're under antitrust investigation. 1068 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,200 Like imagine like cries of collision, if like the biggest 1069 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,400 tech companies in the world. For coordinating around 1070 00:50:18,500 --> 00:50:20,700 misinformation. I was gonna say one more thing 1071 00:50:20,700 --> 00:50:22,200 and then we can go to tick. Tock, is that all right? 1072 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:23,700 Yeah. Because you because we are 1073 00:50:23,700 --> 00:50:27,100 talking about, you know, the media's coverage of YouTube and 1074 00:50:27,100 --> 00:50:29,300 its various scandals. You have a chapter in your book, 1075 00:50:29,300 --> 00:50:34,500 about Elsa gate, which if my summary of Elsa gate is that 1076 00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:38,800 this was people uploading videos of often dudes dressed up as 1077 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,800 Elsa from Frozen doing kind of bizarre. 1078 00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:45,300 Inexplicable things hanging out with children or just sort of 1079 00:50:45,300 --> 00:50:48,900 like wandering around on set. There became a whole Firestorm 1080 00:50:48,900 --> 00:50:53,400 controversy around Elsa gate, because there was this idea that 1081 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,600 they were grooming children. The people that were uploading 1082 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,700 these videos, which all seem to be very SEO optimized, you know, 1083 00:50:58,700 --> 00:51:01,300 gaming the systems that you could get as many views as 1084 00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:03,300 possible. We're part of a nefarious, 1085 00:51:03,300 --> 00:51:06,300 plots, you can Vince children to, like, I don't know. 1086 00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:11,200 Make themselves prey for predators and, you know, to me, 1087 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,900 looking back on this whole episode, it seemed like 1088 00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:16,200 hysteria. It was very hard to prove 1089 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:18,500 anything concrete. About it but I think it also in 1090 00:51:18,500 --> 00:51:22,400 my opinion fed a lot of the same things that you see the 1091 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,200 right-wing talking about. Now when it comes to grooming 1092 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,300 and and claiming that you know, having a teacher that's a gay or 1093 00:51:28,300 --> 00:51:32,000 trans is secretly going to turn your child into, you know, child 1094 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,400 porn bait as someone who covered it during the time. 1095 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,400 And as you read in your book, I mean, how do you reflect on lc8? 1096 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:44,200 Simple question to end. Yeah, I mean I thought like 1097 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:45,800 there's a really interesting interview. 1098 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,100 I didn't get a lot of bit like I You get on the phone with Greg 1099 00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:51,100 Chisholm who ran this side Channel called toy freaks was. 1100 00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:53,900 Look at the, at the center of the attention and it became this 1101 00:51:53,900 --> 00:51:57,400 wildly popular show our Channel called toy Freaks, and which he 1102 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,200 had his two daughters and like, got this of controversy because 1103 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,500 he didn't, like he would play Clank Frank's in his daughters 1104 00:52:02,500 --> 00:52:05,700 and then some clips, like there was one that like, his daughter 1105 00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:07,600 was like, pulling a teeth and there's a lot of blood. 1106 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,400 And like, from the video stills, it looked like she was she was 1107 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,000 screaming with blood if you go back and watch the video, it's 1108 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,000 like you know, he's filming his daughter like having a like a 1109 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,600 Money truth issue. It's really wanted to, like, 1110 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,700 weird to film your daughter and upload that amount like a right 1111 00:52:22,700 --> 00:52:24,500 for millions, millions of people, but like, you know, you 1112 00:52:24,500 --> 00:52:26,800 two built this tool, the incentivizes that right? 1113 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,400 So, but, like, the actual video, if you'd like, then calms her 1114 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,700 down and like tells her everything like seem to be like, 1115 00:52:32,700 --> 00:52:35,500 doing things that like this, like a actually good parenting, 1116 00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:36,700 right? So but they went. 1117 00:52:36,700 --> 00:52:38,600 So I think it is defense like these things were taken out of 1118 00:52:38,607 --> 00:52:41,900 context and sense of like a screenshot of that and then like 1119 00:52:41,900 --> 00:52:44,500 he actually like there were just so many videos that like 1120 00:52:44,700 --> 00:52:46,900 replicated his condo because they were so popular. 1121 00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:52,600 So So yes, Tom I think this was wrapped into and I didn't get us 1122 00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:55,400 all in the book necessarily but you're totally right and sense 1123 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,400 of like it's become this. This like right-wing bludgeon 1124 00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:04,000 here that bad and whatever stand like a complicated world of like 1125 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,700 what's the word to use for Bruner meant like grooming 1126 00:53:08,700 --> 00:53:11,900 Jonah, thank you. Yeah, at the same time like 1127 00:53:11,900 --> 00:53:13,800 that. That issue was less. 1128 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,900 Yes, it got a lot of attention in the media and like James 1129 00:53:16,900 --> 00:53:18,500 Brown. Vidal wrote this medium, post it 1130 00:53:18,500 --> 00:53:23,400 like exploded, but that I that was less about, I think like in 1131 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,900 Elsa, gate less about sort of the phenomenon of like people 1132 00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:28,500 dressing up, like kids or shooting. 1133 00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:31,900 Can the videos and that was more about like this automated where 1134 00:53:31,900 --> 00:53:34,800 I'm just a Content meal about that, like making things for 1135 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,900 kids, making them by machines like irresponsible sort of like 1136 00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,000 called like Industrials nightmare production, right? 1137 00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:42,000 The other thing is look like to remember it. 1138 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,500 A lot of these like YouTube does respond to Media, YouTube 1139 00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:46,900 responds to advertisers, and that crisis was because an 1140 00:53:46,900 --> 00:53:49,600 average Like an ad agency once YouTube and was like, what the 1141 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:53,100 hell is this video that I'm paying like, $20 cpms for right 1142 00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:55,600 up? Like a kid in a bathing suit and 1143 00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,400 that's what's it like. So I think like, I will push 1144 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,600 back and defend our fourth estate a little bit. 1145 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,700 Like, yes, things were things were hysterical, but I think 1146 00:54:05,700 --> 00:54:09,100 something that maybe was lost and and that like to like that, 1147 00:54:09,100 --> 00:54:12,200 Elsa gate was the thing that forced you to make its most 1148 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,400 significant change and the monetization thing and then 1149 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,100 we'll get to tick. Tock is so important for all of 1150 00:54:16,100 --> 00:54:17,600 us because on the one hand, Hand. 1151 00:54:18,100 --> 00:54:22,000 I mean, the modernization on the fact that creators get paid a 1152 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,200 significant share of AD. Revenue is part of the genius of 1153 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,800 YouTube and parts of what gets all these craters to do stuff. 1154 00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,100 But then it should give YouTube far more culpability, because 1155 00:54:33,100 --> 00:54:35,700 they are creating the financial incentive for these people to do 1156 00:54:35,700 --> 00:54:39,800 Insane hacks of the human brain distributed by the Google 1157 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,900 algorithm paid for by Google. It's like, it's like the you're 1158 00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:47,000 creating this monster, you're paying them to do it like there. 1159 00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,700 Totally culpable for it. It's not just sort of like 1160 00:54:49,700 --> 00:54:51,900 people do weird shit. It's like, people do weird shit 1161 00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:54,200 when they're chasing add money from you. 1162 00:54:54,300 --> 00:54:56,600 But anyway, so that's YouTube has. 1163 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,400 This crater fund it's good in that creators can make a lot of 1164 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,200 money. It's bad and that it distorts 1165 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,300 human behavior and weird ways Tick-Tock is seems to be like 1166 00:55:05,300 --> 00:55:09,700 paying creators way less but then they just have such a good 1167 00:55:09,700 --> 00:55:11,900 distribution mechanism. That's even more. 1168 00:55:11,900 --> 00:55:15,700 Like, whatever the human mind desires, we will feed it to you. 1169 00:55:15,900 --> 00:55:18,800 I don't know where where How does YouTube respond to tick, 1170 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,500 tock, or where do you see all this going? 1171 00:55:20,500 --> 00:55:23,600 I mean never use some time on your YouTube app recently, like 1172 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:25,900 right there, where they're much more vertical videos. 1173 00:55:25,900 --> 00:55:29,300 I, we were just looking on ink. They like, yeah, they want you 1174 00:55:29,308 --> 00:55:31,700 to watch George like, and they're going to flip the switch 1175 00:55:31,700 --> 00:55:35,800 and the coming weeks, months on, monetization for shorts, and 1176 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,800 there's an expectation there that like, they'll compete on 1177 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,800 sort of, the pain creators again, Yak, which is she's, I 1178 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,400 think they have it, like, for minor, send them figured, I 1179 00:55:42,408 --> 00:55:44,500 mean, Hank, Green, or you mentioned earlier has been huge 1180 00:55:44,500 --> 00:55:45,100 on. Yes. 1181 00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:47,700 Yeah. And like I think there's So, 1182 00:55:48,100 --> 00:55:51,000 Hank is in the book and people that aren't should make, but I 1183 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:52,800 think they'll feel like the other thing that I find really 1184 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,500 interesting in the book is that YouTube did consider sort of the 1185 00:55:56,500 --> 00:55:59,200 like a big did consider The Tick-Tock model. 1186 00:55:59,300 --> 00:56:02,900 Like they wanted to revamp their entire payment system around in 1187 00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:06,200 2017 2018 and paid based on engagement. 1188 00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:08,300 And now, it seems like they said they're going to do with shorts 1189 00:56:08,300 --> 00:56:10,500 is not so beautiful. If that kind of thing, please 1190 00:56:10,500 --> 00:56:13,700 don't be some engagement from a creative fun to Hank Green 1191 00:56:13,700 --> 00:56:15,300 aside. Like, you know that like the 1192 00:56:15,308 --> 00:56:16,900 more craters you get there, the smaller teach mouth. 1193 00:56:17,100 --> 00:56:18,100 Gets right. Like, that's right. 1194 00:56:18,100 --> 00:56:20,100 So we'll just the share relative to the revenue. 1195 00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:22,300 Tick-Tock is generating is clearly too small. 1196 00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:24,600 It's not just the mechanism. It's also right? 1197 00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,100 Just like the share of Revenue. Yeah, and YouTube sites like 1198 00:56:27,100 --> 00:56:29,300 YouTube will have, it's like unclear how they're going to 1199 00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:33,000 give like is if the ad comes after my short do I get the 1200 00:56:33,008 --> 00:56:35,000 credit or is it come before my short? 1201 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,200 Like, you know, I mean like that's something they haven't 1202 00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:39,300 solved yet. As far as like, which Creator 1203 00:56:39,300 --> 00:56:43,700 gets the money from Jazz and and then like is it's like will 1204 00:56:43,900 --> 00:56:46,300 anyway? So that's I think they're 1205 00:56:46,300 --> 00:56:50,000 leaning in All in, I'm sure it's I think Tick-Tock is really like 1206 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,200 to talk he's their first sort of to two-sided competition where 1207 00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,800 it's both competing for eyeballs and then or creators. 1208 00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,500 Hmm. I know you like a meaningful way 1209 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,900 and we've always talked about how histograms are bending over 1210 00:57:02,900 --> 00:57:05,000 backwards to compete with with YouTube. 1211 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,700 I do Tick-Tock and YouTube's to like, I think is savvier and has 1212 00:57:09,700 --> 00:57:14,700 less problems than Facebook and so can the bit more like 1213 00:57:14,900 --> 00:57:17,900 judicious and its decision decisions, but But you know it 1214 00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:21,500 is like a they totally abandoned strategy to totally pivoted to 1215 00:57:21,500 --> 00:57:25,700 shorts and like a few minutes and a few years and it's so like 1216 00:57:25,700 --> 00:57:28,200 the irony of like going back in early you to where it was like 1217 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,000 the big YouTube hits were like mystery guitar man. 1218 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:32,700 Making a one-minute video, right. 1219 00:57:32,700 --> 00:57:37,100 Like and then YouTube trained us all to watch like 12 to 20 1220 00:57:37,100 --> 00:57:39,200 minute videos and now like shorts are back in. 1221 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:43,200 I mean there was this in really delicious tweet that YouTube 1222 00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,800 deleted or it was like making fun of a creator for posting one 1223 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:48,400 video. As an actor, I was like the 1224 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,300 best, right? I mean, if you talk to the kids 1225 00:57:50,300 --> 00:57:53,800 today, they'll call YouTube long form, which is like the ultimate 1226 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,100 irony and, and maybe perfect encapsulation of where our 1227 00:57:57,100 --> 00:58:00,400 attention span has devolved as a species. 1228 00:58:00,700 --> 00:58:03,100 And you see people will say like, oh well, what Tick-Tock 1229 00:58:03,100 --> 00:58:06,300 figured out is like online like it's easier to post a tick tock 1230 00:58:06,500 --> 00:58:08,000 and the vine like mine to this first. 1231 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:12,400 It's easier to post like YouTube at least creates incentives were 1232 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:16,000 like, you don't just like, shoot a quick photo on your phone and 1233 00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,200 then upload it to YouTube. Right because it gives any 1234 00:58:18,500 --> 00:58:21,200 discoverability is a big issue there, like I could do that and 1235 00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:22,900 then no one's going to watch it, right? 1236 00:58:22,900 --> 00:58:25,500 Like I could post a bunch of videos of like I'm sure you post 1237 00:58:25,500 --> 00:58:27,400 this video on YouTube and like, you know, friends. 1238 00:58:27,700 --> 00:58:31,600 We're like Tick-Tock, you, like, you can hit viral, really. 1239 00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,800 You know what? It sounds to me, identical too 1240 00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,800 early to one like someone could come out of nowhere, like, Jack 1241 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,500 on, they can come to YouTube. Let's wrap this up, but YouTube 1242 00:58:41,500 --> 00:58:46,200 has been like, if you subscribe on YouTube, you reach your 1243 00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:47,400 followers. Right? 1244 00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:53,400 In a way that Tick-Tock there's much less like sort of a vanity, 1245 00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:54,700 right? I mean, it took talk is 1246 00:58:54,700 --> 00:59:00,400 basically the discoverability algorithm made ultimately more 1247 00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:02,200 powerful, like infinitely more powerful. 1248 00:59:02,300 --> 00:59:05,300 Right there is like a subscribe, you know, intent element of 1249 00:59:05,300 --> 00:59:08,000 YouTube baked into it whereas Tick-Tock is like, let the 1250 00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:09,600 robots. Tell you what you want to see? 1251 00:59:09,900 --> 00:59:14,400 Yes, yes. I mean, I would think that. 1252 00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,700 Yeah, maybe you tips like I'm sure I'm sure they're trying to 1253 00:59:17,707 --> 00:59:19,700 figure out a way to do that like that you know with like one 1254 00:59:19,700 --> 00:59:22,000 thing they're exceptionally good at is getting like people to 1255 00:59:22,500 --> 00:59:25,000 keep watching, right? Like I don't doubt Google's 1256 00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,400 ability to do that, I don't doubt their ability to monetize, 1257 00:59:28,100 --> 00:59:30,500 but I doubt they're building to see unintended consequences 1258 00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:32,700 there are enclosing Bergen. Can you can you pull up 1259 00:59:32,700 --> 00:59:35,300 youtube.com right now and tell us what the algorithm is 1260 00:59:35,300 --> 00:59:38,500 recommending to you? We infer things to be? 1261 00:59:38,500 --> 00:59:40,200 Yeah, this is me, my embarrassing. 1262 00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,700 Can we infer things about who you are based on what the algo? 1263 00:59:42,700 --> 00:59:44,300 Well this is my like I don't think I've shared with either of 1264 00:59:44,300 --> 00:59:48,800 you my like recent fixations. When I grew up I I was obsessed 1265 00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,000 with basketball on it that really in the NBA. 1266 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:55,600 So I just like watch basketball clips like 90s NBA highlights or 1267 00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,100 what you're talking about. A more recent more recent what 1268 00:59:58,100 --> 01:00:00,500 was coming out like and they I'm on fire. 1269 01:00:00,500 --> 01:00:03,800 I do like Key and Peele. There's like a Steph Curry clip. 1270 01:00:03,900 --> 01:00:06,600 There's a Spurs played beautiful game. 1271 01:00:07,300 --> 01:00:09,000 Oh my God. Peter teal America's most 1272 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,200 dangerous, billionaire investor, mockumentary that's like do some 1273 01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:14,100 work. Yeah. 1274 01:00:14,100 --> 01:00:16,500 Think about tear some lame workout videos. 1275 01:00:17,500 --> 01:00:20,500 We're gonna core is Philipp. Frank was saying, YouTube is 1276 01:00:20,500 --> 01:00:22,600 racist where the internet is furious. 1277 01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,500 After Corey extension Phil DeFranco, it's that you guys 1278 01:00:26,500 --> 01:00:27,800 should try again Franco on your show. 1279 01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:29,100 Yeah. I liked it. 1280 01:00:29,100 --> 01:00:33,400 I mean it's been years but so I think is good at what he's like 1281 01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:38,800 my only subscription option and then I was trying to get my wife 1282 01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:41,300 to one Better Call Saul. So there's a lot of like Better 1283 01:00:41,300 --> 01:00:43,900 Call Saul content is watch Recaps. 1284 01:00:44,100 --> 01:00:45,900 I don't know. All it all seems pretty pretty 1285 01:00:45,900 --> 01:00:48,300 clean burgundy sound? Guy is NBA. 1286 01:00:48,300 --> 01:00:51,500 He likes his Fitness, he likes, you know, Prestige. 1287 01:00:51,500 --> 01:00:54,000 He's admitting he's omitting all the Elsa videos. 1288 01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,100 Yeah, it's about everything. I'm admitting all the, all the 1289 01:00:57,100 --> 01:00:59,400 weird, right? It just like more, like dank 1290 01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,600 meme reviews and prouder attacks. 1291 01:01:02,300 --> 01:01:05,100 You know, lib college student, do some of the things, some of 1292 01:01:05,100 --> 01:01:07,900 that in life, you know, my friends. 1293 01:01:07,900 --> 01:01:12,900 I didn't fix the on your on your few tube if you anyway Mark, 1294 01:01:13,100 --> 01:01:16,200 thanks so much for joining the book as a reminder is called 1295 01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,500 like comment subscribe. Describe inside YouTube's 1296 01:01:18,500 --> 01:01:20,300 chaotic rise to World Domination. 1297 01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,500 It's an excellent read to All Tech reporters and people who 1298 01:01:24,500 --> 01:01:27,500 want to know more about the world that YouTube is created. 1299 01:01:27,500 --> 01:01:30,500 So highly recommended. Thanks so much for joining me. 1300 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:33,300 Thank you, we've gotta run a Bloomberg people. 1301 01:01:33,300 --> 01:01:36,200 So nice. Nice to see a former desks 1302 01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,600 neighbor as we're fun. Thanks for letting us talk about 1303 01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:53,600 Google kremlinology Arc. Goodbye. 1304 01:01:53,700 --> 01:01:56,300 Goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 1305 01:01:56,300 --> 01:01:56,700 Goodbye.