1
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:14,100
Welcome Sally. 
Hey everybody. 

2
00:00:14,100 --> 00:00:16,800
Welcome to this week's episode 
of dead cat. 

3
00:00:16,900 --> 00:00:18,900
It's me, Tom here joined by 
Eric. 

4
00:00:18,900 --> 00:00:21,400
And we have as our special 
guest, Jacob Silverman, 

5
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,800
journalist of many, many topics 
within Tech. 

6
00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:28,500
Although has been spending a lot
of his time in the past couple 

7
00:00:28,500 --> 00:00:29,700
years. 
How long has your ear? 

8
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,900
Tiptoe Fascination lasted. 
Jacob, let's see. 

9
00:00:32,900 --> 00:00:36,500
It really started at the very 
end of 2020. 

10
00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:38,200
So yeah. 
So about a year, a year and a 

11
00:00:38,208 --> 00:00:38,900
half. 
Maybe. 

12
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:39,800
Okay. 
Okay. 

13
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,300
I'm relatively new as far as 
sort of The Scene goes right. 

14
00:00:43,300 --> 00:00:47,500
But outspoken as a crypto critic
and yeah I've kind of sight 

15
00:00:47,500 --> 00:00:51,300
without no coin do that? 
Yeah yeah the gloves off a 

16
00:00:51,300 --> 00:00:54,100
little bit. 
Yeah okay yeah so this is going 

17
00:00:54,100 --> 00:00:56,500
to be a crypto episode to all 
those who have been paying 

18
00:00:56,500 --> 00:01:02,300
attention to the brutal and 
Really bad crypto markets that 

19
00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:04,900
have crashed. 
Not only in tandem with the 

20
00:01:04,900 --> 00:01:09,400
equity markets but far far 
worse, Bitcoins down 37 percent.

21
00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,000
Year-to-date Luna, obviously 
collapsed. 

22
00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:15,600
What's the theory am? 
I don't know was trying to? 

23
00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:18,700
Yeah, everything's down, 
everything's down, down in a big

24
00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:20,700
way. 
And Jacob is obviously great to 

25
00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:23,900
talk to you about this because, 
you know, obviously he's been 

26
00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:25,900
into it and writing about it 
over the last year or so. 

27
00:01:25,900 --> 00:01:30,300
But also you are working on an 
upcoming book with If Ben 

28
00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:32,800
McKenzie. 
Yeah that Ben McKenzie. 

29
00:01:32,900 --> 00:01:37,100
Ryan Atwood of OC Fame who is 
also probably the most prominent

30
00:01:37,100 --> 00:01:40,900
crypto critic out there these 
days you guys think up what's 

31
00:01:40,900 --> 00:01:43,900
the backstory? 
There he it was actually a 

32
00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:49,300
pretty pretty basic meet-cute. 
I guess he likes something. 

33
00:01:49,300 --> 00:01:52,600
I wrote for the new Republic 
about Bitcoin basically being a 

34
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,500
scam and he DM me and then we 
both live in Brooklyn. 

35
00:01:57,500 --> 00:01:59,800
So we went and had beers and 
burgers. 

36
00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:03,300
And talked about crypto and he 
had fallen down the rabbit hole 

37
00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:05,900
to at that point of the sort of 
critics Rabbit Hole. 

38
00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:09,900
Like I fully admit much to the 
Chagrin of people in my life 

39
00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:12,900
that I am obsessed. 
But, you know, I'm obsessed from

40
00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:17,000
this angle of kind of Fraud and 
and the absurdity of it and the 

41
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,400
characters involved and how 
could this all be happening? 

42
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,900
So much out in the open, right? 
So been kind of while I've been 

43
00:02:23,908 --> 00:02:25,500
writing a bit about crypto 
intermittently. 

44
00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:29,100
It wasn't totally my beep, a 
been had some time on his hands 

45
00:02:29,100 --> 00:02:31,500
because Hollywood is So the 
shutdown, during the pandemic 

46
00:02:31,700 --> 00:02:34,700
and that's how he first fell 
down the rabbit hole and then 

47
00:02:34,700 --> 00:02:35,900
wrote me in. 
Right? 

48
00:02:35,900 --> 00:02:37,700
Got it. 
And I guess we should lay out at

49
00:02:37,700 --> 00:02:41,000
the outset here, because we've 
talked about crypto on this show

50
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,200
before we probably run the 
gamut, I mean Eric you're 

51
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,000
probably going to be on the 
moon, the more defensive side. 

52
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,400
I imagine why I was going to 
point out the convenient thing 

53
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,500
about starting to cover crypto 
in 2020 is you have not had to 

54
00:02:55,500 --> 00:02:59,800
apologize for past Cycles where 
everybody took a Victory lap. 

55
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,100
And said this crypto thing is 
like a scam and then it comes 

56
00:03:04,100 --> 00:03:06,700
roaring back better than ever. 
And then you're sort of like, 

57
00:03:06,700 --> 00:03:10,300
well, it's a really it's a 
better scam, right guys? 

58
00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,000
Jacob, his head. 
Jacob has had. 

59
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,300
So little time having fun. 
Be my position is always just 

60
00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:18,900
been people have made so much 
money on it, like it's real. 

61
00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:21,200
In that sense, I sort of wanted 
to throw out the question. 

62
00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,600
Like, if you pull off a Bernie 
Madoff, and never go to jail, 

63
00:03:25,700 --> 00:03:28,200
isn't that a success? 
You know what I mean? 

64
00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,300
It's like, yeah, yeah. 
Yeah, I mean I honestly, I think

65
00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:35,300
that's the attitude in some ways
for people within the industry. 

66
00:03:35,300 --> 00:03:37,800
I mean, you hear a lot of talk 
about Ponzi schemes and maybe 

67
00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,800
about that sort of Ponzi, 
economics, not being that bad 

68
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,000
necessarily. 
I argue that there's been almost

69
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,800
a rehabilitation of the Ponzi 
scheme. 

70
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,600
So I mean, just to take Madoff. 
As example, he was one of the 

71
00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,100
most successful investors on 
Wall Street for years. 

72
00:03:53,100 --> 00:03:55,200
So, in a sense, he succeed for a
long time. 

73
00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,900
And one thing you learn is that 
sometimes it's not necessarily 

74
00:03:59,300 --> 00:04:03,100
the Tons of a Ponzi scheme or 
law enforcement, that ends the 

75
00:04:03,108 --> 00:04:06,600
Ponzi scheme or the scam. 
It can be outside forces like 

76
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,600
like the recession or often not 
being. 

77
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,600
When's for the bill comes due a 
recession hits, a your customers

78
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,700
want to want to cash out 
suddenly you can't pay them all.

79
00:04:16,899 --> 00:04:19,899
That's I think a common way, 
some of these scams fail, but 

80
00:04:19,899 --> 00:04:24,600
even just to bring it back to 
this week, the whole Tara and 

81
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,300
Luna thing. 
I mean, a lot of people thought 

82
00:04:27,300 --> 00:04:30,800
that was a Ponzi scheme even 
supporters of Upon the same but 

83
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,300
there's this there's this sense 
that it could just be a Ponzi 

84
00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:37,700
until maybe it was somehow 
legitimized whether it was the 

85
00:04:38,100 --> 00:04:40,400
10 million dollars plus worth of
bitcoin. 

86
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,700
Backing that do Quan was trying 
to build up. 

87
00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:45,800
I mean he basically said that 
that was the defensive mechanism

88
00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:47,700
to keep this whole thing going, 
right? 

89
00:04:47,700 --> 00:04:50,600
Well there was that interview 
with Sam Bank been freed right 

90
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:57,500
where he seemed to sort of admit
upon Z ish level of to some of 

91
00:04:57,500 --> 00:05:00,500
these projects and then you see 
the crypto people No, this world

92
00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:03,200
so much better than I do but 
like they talk about like dgeni 

93
00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,500
boxes all the time or there's 
just this idea that it's like 

94
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,800
yeah it's like a magic box and 
produces money that's like 

95
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,300
probably broken but like yeah 
I'm gonna make money off the Box

96
00:05:13,300 --> 00:05:15,200
while it's working. 
Yeah. 

97
00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,800
That seems to be the sort of the
latest term or framing for some 

98
00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,000
of these D5 pools and protocols 
and stuff like that. 

99
00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:26,200
I mean the it would be, it's 
pretty complicated describe what

100
00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,400
just happened with Tara and 
Luna. 

101
00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,900
I'm not sure if I even fully. 
I understand it really but you 

102
00:05:31,900 --> 00:05:36,100
know but basically it was a way 
of creating a stable coin a coin

103
00:05:36,100 --> 00:05:39,200
that has a value pegged at a 
dollar of which there are a 

104
00:05:39,207 --> 00:05:42,800
number now of serving varying 
trustworthiness. 

105
00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,500
But that's how defy runs these 
days is on stable coins and you 

106
00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:48,900
stick them in you cut you stake 
them or you stick them in the 

107
00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:51,900
magic box. 
This is the the simplified 

108
00:05:51,900 --> 00:05:54,400
version and then you get insane.
Interest rates. 

109
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:59,400
So, in the the Tara Luna 
ecosystem, if you put your you 

110
00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,700
were the Taking pool was through
something called anchor, and 

111
00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:05,200
there, you were getting like, 
you know, I actually don't know 

112
00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:06,600
what the anchor rates were 
recently. 

113
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,600
But you know, these are double 
digit rates and some of them are

114
00:06:09,608 --> 00:06:12,600
promising. 70%, not necessarily 
an anchor, but some of these 

115
00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:13,600
other defy. 
Yeah. 

116
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,500
That was like nineteen percent 
at one point. 

117
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,800
Yeah, they certainly fluctuate. 
But like, you know, you're not 

118
00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,000
going to get a more than single 
digits, from a regular bank. 

119
00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,000
So obviously they're promising, 
these improbable returns. 

120
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,000
I think it's gotten to the point
where even someone like SPF has 

121
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,600
to admit same Band free. 
Yeah, I'm Sorry that's that's 

122
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:31,900
you know those of us in the 
know. 

123
00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:34,900
Yeah we vote we both Pretend 
This podcast is super inside 

124
00:06:34,900 --> 00:06:37,400
hurry but then try to bring 
people along and again some 

125
00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,700
balancing. 
Please steer me away from jargon

126
00:06:39,700 --> 00:06:42,400
or her tummy to explain some 
other funny thing here is we've 

127
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,400
launched so far into this 
immediately. 

128
00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,700
We didn't even really defined to
a degree. 

129
00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:51,000
How a stable coin works. 
And I mean to me that is 

130
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,300
probably been the biggest story 
of the last couple of days as 

131
00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:56,800
the collapse of Luna and Tara 
and you sort of say that, you 

132
00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,800
know, it's pegged to the dollar,
but can you explain just 

133
00:06:59,900 --> 00:07:03,600
Manically, how that's supposed 
to work, and why, you know, for 

134
00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,200
whatever reason, the structure 
that was put in place to ensure 

135
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,800
stability. 
Clearly just collapsed. 

136
00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:12,200
Yeah. 
So there are a number of stable 

137
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,100
coins in the crypto economy. 
They're actually, if you look at

138
00:07:16,100 --> 00:07:19,900
the top 10 coins by market cap, 
several of them are stable coins

139
00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:21,200
because they've become very 
useful. 

140
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,400
So the most there's about 150 
billion dollars worth of stable 

141
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,100
coins out there. 
These are all ones worth, at 

142
00:07:27,100 --> 00:07:28,200
least. 
In this case, we're time at ones

143
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:29,700
that are pegged to the dollar 
their ones. 

144
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,600
They're Peg to other currencies,
but the most popular ones are 

145
00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,700
pegged to the dollar. 
So tethers, the most popular. 

146
00:07:34,700 --> 00:07:38,500
One also, sort of the most 
hazardous, the one, if that goes

147
00:07:38,500 --> 00:07:42,000
down some people really do think
the economy will like, oh, yeah,

148
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,200
and tethers considered 
disreputable and number of ways,

149
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,200
they're good articles out there 
and Bloomberg. 

150
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,800
I've written a couple pieces 
that sort of sort of explainer 

151
00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,500
type pieces, but there's been 
some good investigatory uses. 

152
00:07:52,500 --> 00:07:55,800
Definitely other shoes could 
drop, you know, worthy attention

153
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,100
to the stable coin thing because
the Lunas thing isn't some 

154
00:07:59,100 --> 00:08:01,200
Oddity. 
Their You're stable prices, that

155
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,500
are so when people take to the 
Dollar, by the way, that 

156
00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:06,400
essentially means that the value
of a single coin, should not 

157
00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,300
fall below the value US dollar. 
So, with most of these, like the

158
00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:15,400
biggest ones are tether and USD,
see what the idea is that when 

159
00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,200
you can buy them on exchanges 
from the exchange or or from 

160
00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,300
perhaps other Traders but you 
know, when an institution or a 

161
00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:26,900
big client goes to tether or 
USD, see the idea is I give you 

162
00:08:26,907 --> 00:08:29,600
a hundred million dollars. 
You give me 100 million ten. 

163
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,200
Others, you know, 121 and the 
idea is also supposed to be that

164
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,400
tether has won 2-1 backing in 
the bank. 

165
00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,900
So in case there's a bank run or
people want to redeem their 

166
00:08:38,900 --> 00:08:42,400
tethers, they have that cash in 
the bank and there are there 

167
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,800
more than 83 billion dollars 
worth of tether in circulation. 

168
00:08:46,100 --> 00:08:48,600
Now, the Wily, it's not even 
really controversial at this 

169
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,000
point. 
I mean, it's been discovered 

170
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,200
through some government 
investigations is that tether is

171
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,100
not one-to-one backed. 
And they've also changed their 

172
00:08:56,500 --> 00:08:59,100
essentially, their terms of 
service over the years to kind 

173
00:08:59,100 --> 00:09:02,300
of The first they said they're 
11 back by dollars and then it 

174
00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:04,200
was sort of dollars and dollars 
equivalents. 

175
00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,100
Now, it seems to be anything 
goes. 

176
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,800
There's also a wide belief that 
some of these which essentially 

177
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,800
means that they're the claim 
that they had. 

178
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:17,100
That there were Banks willing to
redeem your your coin for 

179
00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,600
similar amount in dollars. 
They just didn't have those 

180
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,500
contracts or the bank's just 
weren't willing to do that. 

181
00:09:22,700 --> 00:09:26,000
Yeah, well tether has had a lot 
of problems with banking, you 

182
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,100
know some of these some of these
other firms like USD, see have 

183
00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:30,900
had more success. 
Cecil Bank relationships. 

184
00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:33,000
I mean, people in crypto will 
tell you well this is a problem 

185
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,600
of the federal government of the
industry making hard for crypto 

186
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,000
to bank. 
But tether has basically like a 

187
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,000
lot of crypto companies, moved 
offshore most of their banking. 

188
00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:45,100
As far as I know, is done 
through a bank called deltek and

189
00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:47,900
the Bahamas. 
So there's there's a belief that

190
00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:52,000
this Bank deltek holds most of 
tethers money, but as you're 

191
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,400
getting at, it's not 83 billion 
dollars, it's far less, we know 

192
00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,700
that tether holds a lot of 
commercial paper, which is a 

193
00:09:58,708 --> 00:10:02,100
type of sort of Short-term 
corporate debt, which is what 

194
00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:03,400
scares the shit out of everyone 
use. 

195
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,900
If they dump all that, all of a 
sudden, it could mess with the 

196
00:10:05,900 --> 00:10:10,200
economy exact and the paper is 
believed to be very low-grade, 

197
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,200
sort of, you know, like C grade 
debt or whatever the equivalent 

198
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,300
might be. 
And also from what I've been 

199
00:10:15,300 --> 00:10:18,000
told a lot of it probably is of 
Chinese companies. 

200
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,100
And right there was all this 
paranoia that like the Chinese 

201
00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:24,200
like you know all those empty 
apartments or whatever in China 

202
00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,100
or like tether was sort of 
behind some of the crazy stuff 

203
00:10:28,100 --> 00:10:31,300
going on there and Andy Even if 
Taylor isn't deeply connected to

204
00:10:31,308 --> 00:10:33,900
like ever Grande or one of those
huge Chinese developers, they 

205
00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:36,200
still have, we know they have 
some Chinese debt. 

206
00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,600
So, like, the Chinese property 
market and economy in general, 

207
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,700
been struggling in last 6 Plus 
months. 

208
00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:46,200
So I mean, that could be one 
shoe to fall if or one Catalyst 

209
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,100
if the stuff all does fall apart
again. 

210
00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:51,300
But so the reason why stable 
coins are useful basically is 

211
00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:56,700
that they're easy to take 
between exchanges a lot, every 

212
00:10:56,700 --> 00:11:01,400
cryptocurrency practically is 
priced in terms of Of stable 

213
00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:02,800
coins. 
So there's like a u.s. 

214
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,800
DT which is tether price and so 
it's really easy to make these 

215
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,800
transactions and to shift them 
between exchanges, it can be 

216
00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,000
harder to cash out. 
It seems as if you're doing 

217
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,400
everything in crypto, you're not
hitting dollars which has rights

218
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,300
of regular right? 
You don't touch Banks as much 

219
00:11:17,300 --> 00:11:20,100
also as exactly. 
So you don't touch the 

220
00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:22,600
mainstream banking system, you 
can keep it on the exchanges or 

221
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:28,000
even off the exchanges. 
And also for defy, it's 

222
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,900
basically based on stable coin, 
And basically you stake your 

223
00:11:31,900 --> 00:11:33,800
tokens, you give them to some 
project. 

224
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,900
They stick them in the magic 
black box and then supposedly an

225
00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:39,700
incredible interest rate comes 
out but you might not be able to

226
00:11:39,700 --> 00:11:42,000
collect on that for a certain 
period of time which is why 

227
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,000
stable Queen collapsing is so 
tragic for the holders because 

228
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,400
it's position is like this 
ultimate secure thing it's it's 

229
00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,200
like dollars with an interest 
rate and then all of a sudden 

230
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,200
you lose all your what principle
basically and so it's right and 

231
00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,600
it's dating and also sample 
coins. 

232
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,400
As per the name have been 
advertised as stable as a refuge

233
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,900
in the everyone knows. 
The crypto markets are volatile.

234
00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:09,700
I mean, even crip people in 
crypto, may know that they're 

235
00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:12,700
not trustworthy and that there's
a lot of scamming going on but 

236
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,900
you know stable coins have been 
widely touted as the safe place 

237
00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:19,900
for your money. 
I mean USD see maybe the safest 

238
00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:22,900
one at this point but people 
have been putting a lot of their

239
00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:26,300
crypto converting it into tether
into u.s. 

240
00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:31,500
DC and also you know until 
recently in To into Terra and 

241
00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:33,000
Luna. 
Yeah. 

242
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,300
It's like it's like the T note I
guess of the varying various 

243
00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:39,600
crypto coins. 
So what would you say is the 

244
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,900
precipitating event? 
That is caused the entire crypto

245
00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:48,300
sector to decline in value, as 
rapidly as it has. 

246
00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:54,300
I mean, is it purely just the 
flight to secure, you know, 

247
00:12:54,300 --> 00:12:58,000
interests, you know, interest 
back notes or things like that? 

248
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,000
Is it that the fear that 
equities Calling has just caused

249
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,600
a panic, more generally, I mean,
why exactly are these things 

250
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,400
happening in tandem? 
Well, I think there are a few 

251
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,300
factors you can point to. 
I mean things were on the 

252
00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:13,200
decline for several months. 
But before this most of the, the

253
00:13:13,208 --> 00:13:16,500
currency's, especially the big 
ones like Bitcoin etherium reach

254
00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:18,000
their all-time highs in 
November. 

255
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,200
I believe there's also a big 
crash in May of last year, which

256
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,100
I wrote an article about for the
Washington post's with my 

257
00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:27,400
co-author been. 
But there was a big crash in 

258
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,300
Bitcoin and etherium last year. 
In May 19th, I believe in a 

259
00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:33,800
bunch of exchanges, including 
Finance went down, which seems 

260
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,100
to happen when they're big price
movements like this. 

261
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:40,800
So, after May 19th last year, 
you started seeing a decline in,

262
00:13:41,700 --> 00:13:44,200
in trading volume among retail 
Traders. 

263
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,600
So, it seems that people are 
losing interest. 

264
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,500
There are a few theories. 
Peter teal said Bitcoin was 

265
00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:53,100
supposed to be as valuable as 
the entire stock market. 

266
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:54,900
Oh yeah. 
He said some kinds of things 

267
00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:57,000
he's like, juicing it right at 
the end. 

268
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,600
Like yeah, yeah, he's been all 
over the place to go. 

269
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,300
The calls himself a bit quite 
Maxi. 

270
00:14:01,300 --> 00:14:03,800
But you know, we saw retail 
volumes going down. 

271
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,200
I think some people are wising 
up. 

272
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,500
Some people have less disposable
income or less, maybe I think 

273
00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:11,500
one thing that drives people to 
crypto is a sense of of 

274
00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:14,300
financial desperation also 
because, you know, there were 

275
00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:18,300
people during the recession who 
got their, their stimulus checks

276
00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:21,500
modest as they were, and then 
probably put that in a coinbase 

277
00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:24,300
account or something like that. 
So I think there is a degree of 

278
00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:26,800
people not having as much money 
to sort of risk or play around 

279
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,600
with, but also some wising up, 
then there are other more. 

280
00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:31,800
Or systemic factors the raising 
of interest rates. 

281
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,200
This is something that Ben 
McKenzie, my co-authors been 

282
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,000
talking to me and other people 
about a lot. 

283
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,200
He really thought that would 
take some of the steam out of 

284
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,800
the markets and it seems to be 
the increasing interest rates 

285
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,700
trouble in China. 
All the, the trading being sort 

286
00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:48,100
of pushed off shore though, a 
lot of it was being done through

287
00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:52,500
vpns anyway so all that was 
causing months of sliding prices

288
00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:55,700
and and generally things have 
been declining since November 

289
00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:59,600
and then this week you have a 
major stable coin a top 

290
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:03,700
Cryptocurrency basically going 
to zero exactly how that 

291
00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:07,700
happened the mechanism in which 
it happened is it can't actually

292
00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:09,200
be fully known at this point. 
I think. 

293
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,000
Because some people believe 
they're sort of an outside 

294
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,000
attack sort of like a George 
Soros have a right on the 

295
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,800
current having people say, oh 
Citadel or whatever. 

296
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,300
Yeah, there's that rumor going 
around that but like Citadel and

297
00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:22,200
BlackRock are it doesn't crash. 
They're like Enemy Number One 

298
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,000
for crypto and it's right want 
to be host. 

299
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,100
It's very convenient for that to
be the answer for why they're 

300
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:29,600
yeah fail. 
I mean and the thing is like 

301
00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:31,900
everyone thought this was 
probably going to fail some 

302
00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:33,400
point. 
They just thought that they can 

303
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,300
keep us spinning for long and 
Ken Griffin or whatever is it 

304
00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:42,700
can go by the Constitution, 
right? 

305
00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:46,500
So, yeah, they've been titled by
him before, you know. 

306
00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:48,600
So yeah. 
So you know, there is certainly 

307
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,200
a persecution complex or sense 
that and, you know, if there's a

308
00:15:51,208 --> 00:15:53,900
lot of money to be made, I mean 
there are hedge funds involved 

309
00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:57,900
or high frequency trading firms.
That only do crypto, you know, 

310
00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:02,300
if there's money to be made on 
Arbitrage between exchanges or 

311
00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:08,000
trying to manipulate a protocol 
like like the whole Tara Luna 

312
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,400
anchor ecosystem, they'll go for
it. 

313
00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:12,700
I just we just don't have 
evidence that they did by one 

314
00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:14,300
view of crypto. 
It's all in the game, like 

315
00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:15,900
that's fine. 
You're operating on the 

316
00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:17,600
protocol, you're following the 
rules. 

317
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,900
Like, if you find a way to like 
siphon off a lot of money, I 

318
00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:25,000
mean it's been funny and I want 
this is tragic and Museum. 

319
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,400
The same time, I mean you see 
some of these threads and 

320
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,500
they're like, you know, suicide 
hotlines. 

321
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,300
Getting yeah. 
So I cut it on the way and some 

322
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:35,500
people were but but obviously 
there's sort of an intellectual 

323
00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:39,000
part of it that it's very 
amusing and in the crypto world 

324
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,800
you see like the hardcore 
Bitcoin people being like, you 

325
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,000
should have never believed in 
these stable coins, their 

326
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,500
centralized project, that will 
require all this sort of 

327
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,200
administration. 
So it's funny to watch the 

328
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,900
infighting, is this stuff like? 
Yeah else. 

329
00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:54,400
Yeah. 
And I think there may be more 

330
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,000
that I mean, there's so much 
rationalization that goes on 

331
00:16:57,500 --> 00:17:01,500
within crypto in general. 
On all sides, I mean, but 

332
00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:05,099
especially during these times of
trauma for some folks and these 

333
00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:08,500
dramatic swings in the market. 
I mean, of course, in the normal

334
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:11,400
stock market, if there were 30 
percent slide in a day, or a 

335
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,200
week for the whole Market, that 
would be, you know, that would 

336
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,200
be historic or huge problem, but
in crypto is just we've seen 

337
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,900
before, or even, you know, you 
guys are referring at the I 

338
00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:23,500
think at the beginning the 
conversation to 2017. 2018, 

339
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:27,000
there's the big Ico. 
Boom, then a crypto winter, you 

340
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,900
know, I'm more new to this but 
the same time, I least No, a 

341
00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:32,500
little bit of that history so 
I'm not ready to call crypto 

342
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:34,800
dead. 
Even if tether collapse crypto, 

343
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,000
I don't think we'll be dead. 
You know you'll always have 

344
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,700
people who say we need to do a 
better this time or decentralize

345
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:43,100
more offshore or they'll have 
people to blame but I don't 

346
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:47,200
think sort of an honest internal
Reckoning is going to happen. 

347
00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:50,500
Well, it seems like two things 
need to be reconciled here. 

348
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:53,300
There's one in which like, does 
the central thesis of 

349
00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:56,200
cryptocurrency of a 
decentralized, you know, 

350
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,400
Financial system based on a 
public Ledger. 

351
00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:02,300
Does that work as a Knology. 
And and then there's the like, 

352
00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:04,100
you know, is it going to replace
currency? 

353
00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:06,800
Is it going to, you know, Usher 
in a new economy? 

354
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,200
And I think like one can be true
with the other being false. 

355
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:12,600
You know what I mean? 
Like, well I guess. 

356
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,500
No, they both kind of the 
central technology has to work 

357
00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:19,200
in order for the second to be 
true, but I'm more willing to 

358
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,000
believe someone who looks at 
the, you know who's willing to 

359
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,700
look at the current state of a 
lot of these cryptocurrencies 

360
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:28,800
and stable coins and whatever. 
And say, yeah, obviously this is

361
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:29,900
a horrible time. 
Time. 

362
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,500
There have been a lot of 
failures are brought to this 

363
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:35,100
point, but the argument that we 
have as to why this works and is

364
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:37,900
important still exists. 
Still Still is valid. 

365
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:41,800
Do you agree with that? 
I don't, but I hear that. 

366
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,900
I understand it. 
I mean I think you're right 

367
00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:47,700
though to sort of get back to 
First principles like for 

368
00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:50,500
example I mean I think Financial
censorship as it's sometimes 

369
00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:54,500
called is an issue. 
I mean, but I don't to be honest

370
00:18:54,500 --> 00:18:59,500
I don't think people necessarily
should be able to transact any 

371
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:05,000
Freely with anyone without any 
sort of right below your every 

372
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,100
customer has been sort of. 
Yeah, Central tenant of right. 

373
00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:12,100
But I think we yeah, we do need 
to find ways to preserve and 

374
00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:15,900
even boost sort of privacy and 
Financial Freedom of a certain 

375
00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:19,100
kind. 
But I do think money needs to be

376
00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:21,700
subject to political governance.
Now that means something 

377
00:19:21,700 --> 00:19:25,300
different here than it means in 
Nigeria or Lebanon or where they

378
00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:28,200
have real problems with the 
currencies. 

379
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:32,100
And certainly the The fed and 
Wall Street and Goldman Sachs 

380
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:34,400
basically running. 
Our monetary policy is not a 

381
00:19:34,408 --> 00:19:39,000
good thing, but I do think that 
currency in general if it is to 

382
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,200
act like currency and to have 
the protections that currency 

383
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,800
should have answered and the 
consumer protections needs to be

384
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,200
subject to some form of 
political governance. 

385
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,300
And I don't mean add a bow. 
That's my general philosophy. 

386
00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:54,400
As for the technology. 
I'm glad to talk about that. 

387
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,600
I am certainly not an expert, 
but I will say this, it is more 

388
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,500
divisive within Tech. 
I think. 

389
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,800
And almost any technology I've 
seen in awhile, besides, maybe 

390
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,700
like facial recognition or 
something like that. 

391
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,600
And I talked to a fair number of
people who are computer 

392
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,600
scientists, technologists, 
someone like Nicholas Weaver's, 

393
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,900
very, very prominent on Twitter 
voice on this. 

394
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,000
They just think the tech isn't 
very good that an immutable 

395
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,800
blockchain with, very slow, 
throughput or transaction, pace 

396
00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:27,500
is not the answer to a digital 
money system. 

397
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:31,300
And I think in some ways, the LG
has been so fetishized that the 

398
00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:32,600
industry is almost stuck with 
it. 

399
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,900
That I mean there could be 
another way of making digital 

400
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:36,700
money without blockchain. 
Right. 

401
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:41,400
I mean Bitcoin is certainly not 
a perfect system but it's just 

402
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,700
sort of now like this almost 
historic artifact that we have. 

403
00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:48,100
I mean it's somewhat random that
gold is our favorite metal. 

404
00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:50,400
Like sir there's underlying 
value but it's sort of like 

405
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,700
that's the one we've decided a 
lot of Bitcoin people aren't 

406
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:56,800
really arguing Bitcoins, some 
perfect thing, it's just like, 

407
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,200
oh that's the one, that's the 
oh, gee. 

408
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,100
One. 
I mean do you personally think 

409
00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:04,600
Bitcoin is ever gonna like go to
0? 

410
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,300
I mean I mean maybe it loses 
value when like if the US says 

411
00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:11,500
you can't have it, I find that 
unlikely but to me it's sort of 

412
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:16,000
like it's so far down the road 
that like some people will see 

413
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,300
it as Atkins. 
It's proven that it's some sort 

414
00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:21,400
of store value and people can 
own it to. 

415
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,200
Yeah. 
I'm gonna it's an interesting 

416
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,200
question. 
I don't think it'll I probably 

417
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,400
don't think it'll go 0. 
I mean, who is seen a couple 

418
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,700
things go to zero. 
Typically this week but you 

419
00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:34,700
know, Bitcoin has been around 
for a while since was it October

420
00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:37,300
2008 or 2009? 
I was forget if it's 0 8 or 9. 

421
00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:41,700
But so it has it has a certain 
amount longevity in terms of in 

422
00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:44,300
Tech terms. 
I think crypto in general and 

423
00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:46,900
certain star the crypto 
currencies that have followed. 

424
00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:50,500
In the other block chains that 
have followed have have almost 

425
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:52,600
been. 
I don't know. 

426
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,600
They've had their time in a way 
I think. 

427
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,800
Like we haven't, we've had 12 
plus years of this stuff and 

428
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,600
there's isn't really serve a 
Inge crypto economy, without 

429
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,900
these glaring, security holes 
and wild volatility and really 

430
00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:09,200
difficulty transacting widely in
those currencies. 

431
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,200
I do think Bitcoin especially 
because its first and and seen 

432
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,100
as rather Innovative and seen as
more decentralized. 

433
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:18,600
So there are certainly people 
working on the Bitcoin protocol 

434
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,000
but I think Bitcoin would have 
more staying power. 

435
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,800
I also think Bitcoin, I mean 
one, this isn't a monolithic 

436
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,400
industry. 
I've learned that in the last 

437
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,400
year they're people who dabble 
there. 

438
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:32,300
People who believe all kinds of 
things but Bitcoin does have 

439
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:36,200
sort of the strongest or most. 
Yeah, perhaps the strongest 

440
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,200
culture, which in some forms, is
a cult, I think, or an ideology.

441
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,200
I mean, I don't think that's 
everyone who likes Bitcoin or 

442
00:22:43,208 --> 00:22:45,600
invest in Bitcoin, but, you 
know, that core of True, 

443
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,200
Believers is strong. 
And I think that might help, you

444
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,800
know, sustain it in some form 
for y? 

445
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,000
Well, I mean, a lot of them 
would admit the cult. 

446
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,600
Peace. 
Yeah, I talk to people, they say

447
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,300
they're willing to admit that 
sometimes. 

448
00:22:57,300 --> 00:22:58,700
Yeah. 
Well that I mean that becomes 

449
00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:01,600
very Roll with the nft crowd as 
well. 

450
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,000
I mean it's it's not a it's not 
a very far jump to see the 

451
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,700
group's built around worshipping
of you know digital artifacts 

452
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,000
into something that has like a 
religious fervor behind it. 

453
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,100
But I mean there's a general 
broader truth that that things 

454
00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:23,200
are give are valuable because 
humans attach value to them more

455
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,400
than because they produce cash 
flow at least in the recent 

456
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,400
economy now. 
Yeah, maybe we are. 

457
00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:33,200
About to see the day where we 
revert to ability to produce 

458
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:34,800
cash. 
Flow is the main thing that 

459
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:39,000
drives the value of things. 
But we exited that period for a 

460
00:23:39,008 --> 00:23:41,700
long time. 
And so if You observe that and 

461
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:45,700
realize that people are making a
killing on Tesla because it was 

462
00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:48,500
going up, why not abstract it a 
level further? 

463
00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:51,800
And just say we can. 
Yeah, make money on monkeys or 

464
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,600
whatever that all. 
We have influence that we can 

465
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,000
convince people that their 
value. 

466
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,200
I mean, to some degree, their 
being They were being more 

467
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,200
honest about the economy, we 
were living in them. 

468
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,700
People who are sort of saying it
wasn't going to work because it 

469
00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:09,200
should the world should work on 
cash flows. 

470
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,100
But you know, was it? 
Yeah, I think it's interesting 

471
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:15,500
because, you know, we had maybe 
20 years plus, we're, we're of 

472
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:20,400
this new digital economy. 
I mean, not not to reduce it too

473
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:25,500
much or oversimplify but where 
there was digital abundance, you

474
00:24:25,508 --> 00:24:28,700
know, the potentially infinite 
abundance because any file can 

475
00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:31,100
be replicated Added with perfect
Fidelity easily. 

476
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:33,500
And then you had things like, 
DRM and other sort of systems of

477
00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:38,100
try to deal with this, with 
piracy infinite, abundance, and 

478
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:41,000
all that. 
And now this is in some ways, 

479
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,600
what's happening with n ftes and
digital assets and stuff like 

480
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,300
that. 
And blockchain base assets is 

481
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,400
almost a new form of DRM, or 
perhaps a new way of trying to 

482
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,000
more thoroughly, apply meatspace
property rights. 

483
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,700
You might call them in the 
digital world which in turn 

484
00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:59,400
leads to the ability to produce 
cash flows rents royalties. 

485
00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:03,700
Royalties on digital assets so 
you can kind of at least from 

486
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:07,100
that's how I kind of see it. 
Whether that's possible or can 

487
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:10,600
be, successful is another 
question, but I see the the sort

488
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,500
of the model or the economic 
angle being run here. 

489
00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:16,400
At least that's how it appears 
to me. 

490
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,300
Yeah, I mean the funny thing 
about NF TS we laugh at, they're

491
00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:24,900
the easiest to laugh at but I 
also think they were the 

492
00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:28,700
clearest where people actually 
said oh maybe this is an actual 

493
00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:33,000
utility of blockchain, right. 
I mean I do even though I'm 

494
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,400
probably most willing to defend 
all this like yeah, the the 

495
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,000
clear use case of blockchain in 
any sort of besides Financial 

496
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,400
speculation is remains like a 
total mystery and at least n FTS

497
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,000
were Like okay yeah you could I 
mean I can see why you might 

498
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,700
want to own objects and games 
and blah blah blah but I mean 

499
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:55,400
that market I think it's 
howling. 

500
00:25:55,500 --> 00:25:57,500
I think it's also telling that 
if you were to explain this 

501
00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:01,300
entire world to someone the one 
like a regular person, the one 

502
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:03,400
that I think would have the most
purchased with them that they 

503
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,800
would understand, would probably
be n FTS, you know, just digital

504
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,100
rights ownership to over digital
Goods or rights ownership over 

505
00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:12,500
digital Goods. 
That makes sense to people to a 

506
00:26:12,508 --> 00:26:15,300
certain degree. 
Where is, you know, the full 

507
00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:19,100
critique of the Capital system 
that, you know, crypto is 

508
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:21,600
supposed to be representative of
it gets like you say. 

509
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,300
So abstracted that, you know, 
the value is truly going to be 

510
00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:28,300
in the people who want to take 
the time to understand this and 

511
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:32,100
convince other people of it. 
And I think also that's why, you

512
00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:34,100
know, if people are interested 
in the stuff. 

513
00:26:34,100 --> 00:26:39,200
I I see crypto in general, a 
lot, like gambling and I have no

514
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:40,300
problem with gambling. 
I do it. 

515
00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:43,700
Occasionally, but, you know, the
general rule is gamble only as 

516
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:46,100
much as you can afford to lose 
and people should know the risks

517
00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:49,300
and I don't Think people know 
the risks very well in crypto. 

518
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:52,200
But I also think that what 
you're talking about with that 

519
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,900
explanatory and so the gambling 
size, one reason why I see 

520
00:26:55,900 --> 00:27:00,000
crypto maybe a sting or at least
becoming somewhat niche in the 

521
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,200
future, the other or not 
receiving Mass, adoption the 

522
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,200
other part is sure that the 
explanatory factor that you're 

523
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,500
just getting a tan which is that
it's hard to explain this stuff 

524
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:12,700
to people. 
I mean, certainly, you know, the

525
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:16,100
elderly people my family its 
kind of hopeless even if they 

526
00:27:16,100 --> 00:27:19,300
have their These, which they do.
But, you know, it's just, it's 

527
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:20,700
hard to explain. 
It's taken me a long time to 

528
00:27:20,708 --> 00:27:22,800
understand how some of the stuff
works, and I'm still learning 

529
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,300
more. 
And that's the difference 

530
00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:30,300
between something like, uber and
Facebook, which, I mean, I've 

531
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:32,300
criticized those companies 
plenty, but the service they 

532
00:27:32,300 --> 00:27:36,700
provide is clear it passes sort 
of the grandma test as I've 

533
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:39,800
heard a called back in from 
startups years ago. 

534
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,900
Like you can say in a sentence 
or two what this thing does. 

535
00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:46,600
What I think, might, what crypto
might need, if it survives the 

536
00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:50,100
The various hurdles that it's 
facing is actually start. 

537
00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:54,700
Speaking of abstraction is maybe
like another layer above it of 

538
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,000
an interface that so people 
don't know that they're that 

539
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,700
they're working with the 
blockchain, they don't really 

540
00:27:59,700 --> 00:28:01,500
know. 
They're working with crypto. 

541
00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:05,300
For example on you know they're 
all these issues on Open Sea and

542
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:09,000
these other and ft platforms 
where people are sent and of 

543
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,800
teas that they don't want, or 
they click, they click the wrong

544
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,200
link, and then it's over because
you can't really reverse any 

545
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:17,900
decisions. 
Their permissions that are 

546
00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:21,200
involved in things like that. 
If the everyday user didn't have

547
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,000
to deal with sort of that 
technical complexity and a on a 

548
00:28:25,008 --> 00:28:28,200
day-to-day level, I think that 
would actually solve a lot of 

549
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,400
the onboarding issues and also 
the security issues to I mean 

550
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,800
with that, that sort of like, a 
reason to have optimism, to me 

551
00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:40,500
for this whole world, right? 
I mean to like, yeah, like 

552
00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:43,700
Facebook, Twitter users don't 
need to understand machine, 

553
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:46,600
learning to know that the 
service has survived. 

554
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,700
Up people that they want to see,
or, you know, especially take 

555
00:28:49,700 --> 00:28:52,600
talk now. 
And yes, I totally agree with 

556
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,000
you that a lot of the technical 
stuff needs to be abstracted for

557
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,600
it to work, but that's, that's 
why it's like, it's very 

558
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,700
believable to me that right now 
in crypto, we are in the.com 

559
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:06,800
Era, you know, like most of it's
totally useless is all going to 

560
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,500
blow up. 
But like so, like Amazon and 

561
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,200
emerges, from the.com era, like 
the key, like, I just find it 

562
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,600
hard to believe that everyone is
so attached. 

563
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,300
To these various ideas that like
nothing good comes out of it. 

564
00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:24,700
And that like in a hundred 
years, we don't say wow like 

565
00:29:24,700 --> 00:29:27,900
that, that people don't really 
care that there were all these, 

566
00:29:27,900 --> 00:29:29,900
like frogs and there's Jesus 
Christ. 

567
00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:31,600
That's a long time, line to 
prove out. 

568
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,800
So sure she wasn't 20 years I 
think. 

569
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:35,700
Yeah. 
Crypto will be. 

570
00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:39,200
But, I mean, yeah, that's like 
leads to like by next question. 

571
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,400
Then for both of you guys, guys,
I don't have an answer to it at 

572
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:47,100
all, but like, where do you see 
the current state of The broader

573
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:50,900
legitimate tech industry when it
comes to continuing its 

574
00:29:50,900 --> 00:29:52,500
fascination with this space, 
right? 

575
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,600
I mean, like, we all know tons 
of people that had really great 

576
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:01,000
jobs, at tech companies that 
bailed to go work at open sea or

577
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,700
coinbase or any of these other 
companies that are predicated 

578
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:07,800
entirely on the furtherance and 
existence of this technology. 

579
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,100
So many VCS that we know have 
shifted their focus entirely to 

580
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:15,200
back in crypto startups. 
That's there that's there. 

581
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,500
Mo like what happens to that? 
Now, there's a huge amount of 

582
00:30:19,500 --> 00:30:23,100
money still, like, leaning on 
the fact that this will persist,

583
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,500
are they going to back off it 
like, where, where, where their 

584
00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:28,400
heads at right now? 
I'm now I'm sure there's been 

585
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:29,800
stories written about it but 
what are you what are you 

586
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,000
Gathering? 
I'm not a well are could 

587
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,900
probably speak more towards, you
know, where people's heads are 

588
00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:39,300
at perhaps, but I mean, I think 
part of it also depends on how 

589
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:44,200
big the next crash is, whether 
it's the ongoing slide that or 

590
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,200
pseudo crash that we have going.
Like does that keep going? 

591
00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:51,200
I mean that notice about 
bankruptcy that coinbase put up.

592
00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:54,800
I mean, they say yeah, they just
had to do it to fulfill some 

593
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,800
legal requirement. 
But is that a sign of things to 

594
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,400
come? 
I know you're pretty well 

595
00:30:58,400 --> 00:30:59,700
cattle. 
I would be shocked. 

596
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,000
I would be surprise to you, but 
I mean, but I don't think that 

597
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,200
they happen. 
Yeah. 

598
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,400
I think there's a question of 
how much of this stuff sort of 

599
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,300
crumbles and do major companies 
fail. 

600
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,600
It's certainly possible. 
And then in the next couple of 

601
00:31:10,608 --> 00:31:14,800
years it is interesting because 
as you've both got out, there is

602
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,700
so much money coming. 
In I mean, I think Andreessen 

603
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:20,900
Horowitz is ready to pour more 
billions into into crypto 

604
00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:23,300
startups. 
And you have a proliferating 

605
00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:25,900
number of firms and besides the 
already established ones or 

606
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:29,300
Paradigm and these others and 
Katie Han leaving a 16z to do 

607
00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:31,400
her own thing. 
Like there doesn't seem to be 

608
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,100
any lack of Capital. 
One question might be does 

609
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:38,000
rising interest rates cut off 
some of that capital or at least

610
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,500
you know some of the 
institutional investors get a 

611
00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:42,600
little more skittish and want to
put their money in something 

612
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,700
that seems safer. 
So I'm of two minds. 

613
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,300
Like I think there's been a lot 
of money, putting the stuff, I 

614
00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:50,600
frankly don't see as much use 
case. 

615
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,900
But there is a sense in which 
parts of the tech industry and 

616
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:57,900
certainly the VC industry are 
almost like pot committed to use

617
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:00,700
a poker analogy. 
Like you know, they put a lot of

618
00:32:00,708 --> 00:32:02,700
resources into this. 
Some of them have probably done 

619
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:06,300
pretty well by selling tokens or
whatever but you know I'm sure 

620
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:08,700
lots of people would like to see
something sustainable come out 

621
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:11,500
of this, right? 
Yeah, I agree that there's a lot

622
00:32:11,500 --> 00:32:14,600
of money out there. 
I think you know, a lot of the 

623
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,000
firm's that We're sort of 
Dipping their toes in crypto or 

624
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,200
certainly going to get even more
skittish about it. 

625
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,000
And I think, you know, the 
crypto funds will slow down the 

626
00:32:24,008 --> 00:32:27,100
deployment. 
So it'll certainly hurt sort of 

627
00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:30,600
the companies that are even more
peripheral. 

628
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,500
But yeah, it doesn't seem like 
money's going to dry up 

629
00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:34,400
overnight. 
But that was sort of true of 

630
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,000
the.com and 2008 crashes, where 
it's like, it's not like the 

631
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,500
money disappears right away. 
Because just like the nature of 

632
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:44,400
startup Investments, you know, 
there's still there's still like

633
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:45,600
these funds that have been 
raised. 

634
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,600
Employees. 
But yeah, the valuations for 

635
00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:51,200
talent is an interesting 
question there, too, right? 

636
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,900
I mean, they've been these huge 
Talent magnets at the major 

637
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:56,700
companies, all of these, all of 
these crypto companies. 

638
00:32:56,700 --> 00:33:01,400
And I don't want to be too far 
down, like the valley mindset of

639
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,200
saying like, you know, Talent is
enough to create a product and a

640
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,700
positive result. 
Like I think good ideas are 

641
00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:11,600
probably more important 
ultimately than that, but it 

642
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,300
will be interesting to see if 
there is like a rush back to 

643
00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:18,600
traditional tech companies. 
Buy a lot of these people that 

644
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,600
saw it as like a new frontier 
and now we're disillusioned by 

645
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,800
the State of Affairs and you 
know, that could have cascading 

646
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,800
impacts on the industry. 
Jacob, this is sort of a 

647
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,200
different direction but I just 
wanted me. 

648
00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:33,800
What is your sort of moral 
project on it? 

649
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,200
Or like are you want people to 
be aware that this is like 

650
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,300
gambling or like but but are you
sort of do you have this 

651
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:43,800
personal stance on? 
Like, I want government to ban 

652
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,100
XYZ or I mean, Where do you sort
of see? 

653
00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:51,300
You're like I don't know, the 
sort of ideological political 

654
00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:53,700
sort of part of this 
intersecting with what's 

655
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:56,500
happening and therefore you 
having some sort of perspective 

656
00:33:56,500 --> 00:34:00,100
on sure what should happen if 
the usage of Ponzi scheme is 

657
00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:02,700
like a pretty loaded. 
Moral term like those are 

658
00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:06,100
illegal. 
Well, they are at the same time 

659
00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:09,699
you see it being used sometimes 
by people within the industry. 

660
00:34:09,699 --> 00:34:12,000
I mean, I would say that it's 
like, you know, I don't 

661
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,400
necessarily think people should 
be bad. 

662
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,600
Scheme is typically like not a 
word association. 

663
00:34:15,699 --> 00:34:18,400
Date with that security man. 
Defensive is it creates a bond 

664
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,900
co-produced bonds that throwing 
her out. 

665
00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:25,000
Anyway you know I do think that 
you know, I'm trying to talk to 

666
00:34:25,007 --> 00:34:28,800
as many people as I can from all
facets of the industry and also 

667
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,199
just everyday folks who trade 
and stuff like that. 

668
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,500
So I managed to talk to some 
folks who are true believers who

669
00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:37,400
are Executives at crypto 
companies, people like that and 

670
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,600
then a lot of Skeptics like me 
or or outright critics, a few 

671
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,000
things that I think could help. 
I would I prefer to The more 

672
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,699
sort of guardrails introduced to
the system rather than it being 

673
00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:54,400
just you know, smashed at a 
smashed wholesale a necessarily 

674
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,100
but I think that most 
cryptocurrencies should be a, 

675
00:34:58,107 --> 00:35:00,200
most token should be treated 
Securities. 

676
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,000
I'm not an expert in Securities 
Law but from what I understand 

677
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,600
they seem to pass the Howey test
which is sort of the standard 

678
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,500
for whether these should be 
treated as Securities. 

679
00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:11,400
I mean, the SEC has done a 
little bit of this and some of 

680
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,400
their enforcement. 
You have, you have the other 

681
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,600
issue with Bitcoin being 
officially classified. 

682
00:35:15,700 --> 00:35:18,000
As a commodity, I believe 
through the cftc. 

683
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,700
But in general, I think these 
are securities and I think the 

684
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:27,300
SEC has a lot of authority to do
some things now that would make 

685
00:35:27,300 --> 00:35:30,100
for safer, retail environment 
for consumers. 

686
00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:32,600
So I do try to approach this 
mostly from a consumer 

687
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,500
protection standpoint. 
I think, I mean, I, I'm a person

688
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:39,800
of the left, I think. 
That's so when my sort of left 

689
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,100
the politics come in, I would 
say, it's when I hear people 

690
00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:46,300
from crypto companies, saying, 
we are, Loading Financial 

691
00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:50,500
inclusion or word-for-word 
democratizing, the economy or, 

692
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,300
you know, those sort of the fact
that idea that crypto somehow 

693
00:35:53,300 --> 00:35:56,900
emancipatory or Liberatore, I 
think Financial Freedom is a 

694
00:35:56,900 --> 00:35:59,500
real thing. 
But I think like, for me I would

695
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:02,400
have and I don't claim to speak 
for everyone but I would have my

696
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,500
more Financial Freedom. 
If I had universal healthcare, 

697
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,100
you know if I had if I perhaps 
had postal access to postal 

698
00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:12,900
banking or a local credit union 
or something like that, like the

699
00:36:12,900 --> 00:36:16,600
things that would if I had 
stayed Sighs childcare. 

700
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,800
Like, that would offer me a lot 
more Financial Freedom than 

701
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,800
opportunity to speculate on 
wildly, volatile 

702
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,600
cryptocurrencies. 
I mean, so, I think about in 

703
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,700
some ways like that, like what 
should the government? 

704
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:28,400
What should the government's 
role be in? 

705
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,000
Sort of providing for people's 
Economic Opportunity and 

706
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,500
freedom? 
And I don't think that 

707
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:37,400
cryptocurrencies necessarily 
enhance that project, the the 

708
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,500
SEC and the federal government's
are regulation of crypto. 

709
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,700
I find it extremely disillusion 
until like the Democratic 

710
00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:49,800
project to me. 
It is done a poor job of it, 

711
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,400
that's for sure. 
It is similar to the scc's 

712
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,400
failure, to hold Elon Musk 
accountable to any of its own 

713
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,500
rules, or just sort of like, you
know, the fact that California 

714
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:03,400
and New York are like 
democratic-controlled States and

715
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,600
fail to like adhere to, like, 
sort of the liberal utopian like

716
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,500
Vision that they would promote. 
So to me, I don't know, all this

717
00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:13,900
stuff makes me, you know, as 
sort of a die-hard Democrats 

718
00:37:13,900 --> 00:37:17,900
somewhat disillusioned With the 
left given that they it's like 

719
00:37:17,900 --> 00:37:21,300
you have to act in a like 
technology moves quickly. 

720
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,500
Like I feel like I on the one 
hand appreciate that, like, I 

721
00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:29,700
don't have full conclusions 
about crypto so I wouldn't if I 

722
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:33,300
were in charge just be banning 
things left and right, but but 

723
00:37:33,300 --> 00:37:36,200
not taking action is is a policy
decision. 

724
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,600
You're basically like letting it
happen and sort of yielding sort

725
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,700
of any sense of control over 
over what happened. 

726
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:47,000
So those are like, the Sloan 
This has been an embarrassment 

727
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,900
for the Democratic idea of 
govern, but you've also seen the

728
00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:55,300
ability of regulatory bodies to 
when they make strong moves to 

729
00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:57,200
have cute effect. 
I mean, I think about what they 

730
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,100
did with spax in the last couple
of months like by raising the 

731
00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:04,900
requirements and stopping 
companies from making on, you 

732
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:07,900
know, Anjali a basic rejection, 
this packs, get out first. 

733
00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:10,700
Yeah, we're late. 
Why there's no question that 

734
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:12,800
like the window? 
Yeah, there's this big appetite 

735
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,900
for speculative companies. 
You know, we're going to let 

736
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:17,600
them all. 
I basically get out and then 

737
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,000
right, we're going to say, you 
know, like no more like it was 

738
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,200
obvious from the beginning that 
the projections is you should 

739
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,400
have like on the first day they 
could have said, oh you can't 

740
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,700
just like give wild projections 
because you're doing this weird 

741
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:33,000
loophole trick like it was 
self-evident. 

742
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,900
I don't know why that I, you 
know, I reported on him for a 

743
00:38:35,908 --> 00:38:39,100
couple days and I like wrote 
that, I don't know what, why? 

744
00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:42,000
It takes like months and yeah, 
there's no points for What's 

745
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,000
Happening Here, Right? 
My point was just that like and 

746
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,500
They can decision. 
They can do it, they have the 

747
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:52,800
ability, they shut down the 
telegram Ico and now that was a 

748
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:53,500
big one. 
Yeah. 

749
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:55,700
Right II. 
Hear different things. 

750
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:58,800
I mean I have a lot of 
frustrations and yeah, this is, 

751
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:00,700
I mean, certainly bipartisan 
problem. 

752
00:39:00,700 --> 00:39:04,600
I mean, I also when I raise this
stuff people in crypto or like 

753
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,000
what about Nancy Pelosi 
profiting off of insider trading

754
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,300
and I'm like, yeah, that's 
horrible. 

755
00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:11,700
Like I'm disgusted by that. 
That's an argument. 

756
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,400
That's a, we get off on a lot of
tangents about like. 

757
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:15,800
Well Wall Street does x y z. 
Yeah. 

758
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,400
Well that does a lot of horrible
things. 

759
00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:19,900
I don't think cryptos 
necessarily response to those. 

760
00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:24,700
But as for the SEC, I think, you
know, there's a problem of lack 

761
00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:27,200
of political will they don't 
want to be seen as popping the 

762
00:39:27,207 --> 00:39:28,400
bubble? 
They don't want to be seen as 

763
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:33,000
anti Innovation, some of these 
cases may take a while but there

764
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,100
also is just a question of why? 
Why is it more being done? 

765
00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:38,500
Gary Gensler talks a big game at
times. 

766
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,300
He's like an expert in crypto. 
Yeah he taught a course at MIT 

767
00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:45,500
on blockchain. 
He knows this stuff. 

768
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,800
I mean yeah, he's a golden guy. 
So you have to keep one eye open

769
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,300
for that. 
But, you know, I've talked to 

770
00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:54,600
people in in sort of, I guess 
you'd say, state law enforcement

771
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:59,100
or state regulatory bodies who 
are baffled that more isn't 

772
00:39:59,100 --> 00:40:02,600
being done on the federal level 
but they've some of them have 

773
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:08,200
sent information to the SEC, 
huge files with the essential 

774
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:12,000
Parts marked and still you don't
have. 

775
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,000
I mean that's easy, doesn't do 
criminal prosecutions but some 

776
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,400
of the stuff is going to the doj
Oh in like, you know, the summer

777
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,300
of 2021. 
There was an article in 

778
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:23,700
Bloomberg saying tether under 
federal investigation for bank, 

779
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:27,000
for criminal bank fraud, which 
is which if you read the reports

780
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,700
from the New York Ag and the 
cftc into tether, they probably 

781
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:34,000
committed bank fraud. 
So there's a lot of questions. 

782
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,200
I think, you know, it goes back 
to some of those things I just 

783
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,900
said, but it is a failure of 
sort of the administrative and 

784
00:40:39,900 --> 00:40:43,600
Regulatory state, right? 
And the judicial process that we

785
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,500
don't prosecute any form of 
White Collar. 

786
00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:46,500
Prime. 
That'll on. 

787
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:49,500
We've all seen that Elan musk 
broke Securities laws this year 

788
00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:52,600
when he was accumulating his 
Twitter steak. 

789
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:56,500
So, it's deeply frustrating from
serve top to bottom, right? 

790
00:40:56,500 --> 00:40:59,400
And I don't want to come off 
like I'm saying, I want to 

791
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,500
freeze everything. 
I just think I'm very 

792
00:41:01,500 --> 00:41:04,800
straightforward stuff. 
I mean this back sort of 

793
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,600
projections issues so easy to 
say, but you know, are in crypto

794
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:09,900
world. 
You could just require a like 

795
00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:12,500
disclosures for yes, table coin 
Holdings. 

796
00:41:12,500 --> 00:41:14,700
Like, it's not like you have to 
ban things, you can just say, 

797
00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:17,200
oh, we're going to create 
reporting requirements. 

798
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,100
You know, if you're claiming XYZ
and I think this closure is 

799
00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:21,800
huge. 
It is actually an, I think my 

800
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,600
co-author Ben McKenzie talks 
about is like, you know, it's a 

801
00:41:24,607 --> 00:41:27,500
basic fact usually of doing 
business and especially 

802
00:41:27,500 --> 00:41:30,300
investing in companies and 
stocks, you know, who you're 

803
00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:33,500
doing business with, there's a 
person on and Company, and a 

804
00:41:33,508 --> 00:41:37,200
legal entity on the other end. 
I mean, we don't even have to 

805
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,200
get into the debate about 
quote-unquote doxing, the board,

806
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,800
a people, but I do think it is 
ridiculous that like, this is a 

807
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,700
multi-billion dollar company in 
the Making and they thought that

808
00:41:46,700 --> 00:41:49,300
they could be anonymous. 
Like, if we just had more, if 

809
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,800
that would be a great start, is 
to have more disclosure knowing 

810
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,800
who's behind these companies. 
So, people also can't rug pull 

811
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,400
and then pop up again, under 
another pseudonym, rug pull. 

812
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,300
Exactly. 
I mean, I was gonna bring that 

813
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,200
term up. 
I mean, just the idea that it's 

814
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,900
sort of like par for the course 
in crypto world that basically, 

815
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,500
you know, somebody will announce
a project raise a bunch of money

816
00:42:08,500 --> 00:42:10,000
and then just disappear with the
money. 

817
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,500
That's a rug pull and there's 
like, come back later. 

818
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,500
Yeah. 
Things like oh this guy did a 

819
00:42:14,508 --> 00:42:17,400
couple of rug poles are Already.
You know, but this time it's a 

820
00:42:17,408 --> 00:42:20,000
good project, you know? 
Because I really sun, right? 

821
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,500
That's the rationalization. 
In fact I talked about earlier 

822
00:42:22,500 --> 00:42:25,000
which is that people make 
excuses, they're such low 

823
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,400
expectations that they're like 
he apologized or he did produce 

824
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,100
some value for a lot of people. 
Let's see what he's got next or 

825
00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:34,500
the person just disappears and 
comes up under another 

826
00:42:34,500 --> 00:42:37,300
pseudonym. 
But you know, when I go to 

827
00:42:37,300 --> 00:42:40,500
conferences and things like that
and I and and Ben and I 

828
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:43,100
interview people nearly 
everyone, we've talked to has 

829
00:42:43,100 --> 00:42:47,400
been scammed and a lot of them 
have Rationalizations usually it

830
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,500
comes down to 0. 
It was my fault. 

831
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:51,100
I didn't I clicked the wrong 
thing. 

832
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:54,700
I didn't do enough research, I 
didn't realize that this risk 

833
00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:58,600
XYZ, but it can be met because 
it's somewhat of a Libertarian 

834
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,100
unregulated culture that sense 
of responsibility comes back 

835
00:43:02,100 --> 00:43:05,400
onto the individual. 
And I think that's also, very 

836
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,400
unfortunate and not a way to 
build a sustainable industry. 

837
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,900
You need not just these 
guardrails, but a sense of 

838
00:43:10,900 --> 00:43:14,500
accountability within the 
industry that there, that people

839
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:16,400
shouldn't be scammed. 
To write all the time that 

840
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,100
shouldn't be. 
He's just sort of the cost of 

841
00:43:18,107 --> 00:43:19,800
doing business or the cost of 
Entry. 

842
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:22,300
It's such a bizarre world. 
I just realized the more you 

843
00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:26,300
talk that you have both the 
people who are so openly cynical

844
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:29,000
about things that they're 
happily willing to accept a rug 

845
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,600
pull or, or a scam or somebody, 
you know, a pump and dump is 

846
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,400
like not even considered a 
criticism. 

847
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,000
They're like, oh yeah, it's a 
pump and dump. 

848
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,300
It's one of the pump and dump 
coins. 

849
00:43:37,700 --> 00:43:41,100
Yeah, we had Dogecoin and then 
we had a billion iterations of 

850
00:43:41,100 --> 00:43:42,500
Doge. 
It's like, oh, what a great pump

851
00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:44,000
and up. 
I'd yeah, yeah. 

852
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,100
And it's man, it's still one of 
the Things. 

853
00:43:46,100 --> 00:43:48,300
I so I write about the gig 
economy and one of the saddest 

854
00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:52,700
things that I came across was a 
driver for actually go puff who 

855
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:55,900
was telling me that she had done
the research and was investing 

856
00:43:55,900 --> 00:44:00,400
in not Shiba Inu but as Shiba 
Inu knock off and she was like, 

857
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,200
I've done the research and you 
know I went to a conference in 

858
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,200
Vegas and I feel really good 
about this and I mean I'm 

859
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,600
assuming that's all gone to zero
at this point and she sound like

860
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,600
yeah thousands and that I mean 
there are people who manage to 

861
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,500
sort of ride the volatility or 
you know, a coin might be worth.

862
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,300
Earth, period 70's and then a 
number there. 

863
00:44:19,300 --> 00:44:22,700
These basically worthless coins,
but sometimes people buy a 

864
00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:26,400
million of them and then and 
then ride a 10% increase in 

865
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,400
suddenly they made some money. 
But yeah, generally, those kinds

866
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,700
of cases, you're not gonna make 
a profit part of the reason is 

867
00:44:32,700 --> 00:44:34,400
like, there's not much to 
differentiate a lot of these 

868
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:35,100
coins. 
Yeah. 

869
00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:38,100
They're different prices and and
some of these projects are 

870
00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:41,700
better funded than others, but a
lot of the utility I think is 

871
00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:45,400
also outside of defy Lisa's like
is sort of promise for down 

872
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,600
there. 
Like this is going to get you 

873
00:44:47,607 --> 00:44:49,900
into certain events or contacts 
with these people. 

874
00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:52,700
Or you can get a letter from 
this celebrity or whatever else.

875
00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:56,500
But on a fundamental level a lot
of it is number go up, it's 

876
00:44:56,500 --> 00:44:59,700
speculation. 
That's built on hype and froth, 

877
00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:03,000
and perhaps, disinformation and 
celebrity endorsements. 

878
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,700
And all those kinds of things 
that's not Universal across the 

879
00:45:05,700 --> 00:45:07,700
board. 
But I mean, certainly at least 

880
00:45:07,700 --> 00:45:10,000
95 percent of coins probably 
fall under that. 

881
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,800
So you're working with on a book
with Ben, right? 

882
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,500
Yeah. 
We're frankly we're hoping to 

883
00:45:14,508 --> 00:45:17,700
have some other See media 
projects in the future, but the 

884
00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:21,000
book is definitely happening is 
your focus on particular 

885
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,000
characters or even independent 
of the book. 

886
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,000
I'm just curious, like, who you 
think is, who are the people, 

887
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,900
and sort of crypto World 
interests. 

888
00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:32,100
You the most, we definitely have
sort of Heroes, villains and 

889
00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:35,200
victims, it is somewhat 
character, drip, and 

890
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,600
narrative-driven, you know, we 
want to tell interesting stories

891
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,700
and good stories and not just 
browbeat people that cryptos bad

892
00:45:42,700 --> 00:45:47,000
or something like that. 
So, I guess I'm reluctant. 

893
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,100
I'm sorry to say sure. 
I don't want to actually you 

894
00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:51,100
know because some of the stuff 
might change. 

895
00:45:51,100 --> 00:45:55,200
Also I will say this, there was 
a great article in The Verge a 

896
00:45:55,207 --> 00:45:57,200
month or two ago about Justin 
son. 

897
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,400
Who is the head of Tron? 
Big Block Chain. 

898
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,900
That does a lot of business with
tether Justin's. 

899
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:05,200
I'm not writing my Justin son at
the moment. 

900
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,300
I might one day, but Justin son,
famously last year. 

901
00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:11,900
He, I believe is a Chinese 
National. 

902
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:15,500
He sort of one, these peoples 
heard takes differences. 

903
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,100
And ships. 
And he moved to Grenada took the

904
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:21,700
island of Grenada, the one that 
Reagan invaded and took Granada 

905
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:24,600
and citizenship and became their
ambassador to the World Trade 

906
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,700
Organization. 
Oh my God, I mean, totally 

907
00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:28,600
bizarre, but of course it's 
crypto. 

908
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,600
I mean, the first thing that 
comes to mind, of course, is 

909
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,800
that he wants diplomatic 
protection. 

910
00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:36,200
Whether that really matters, you
know, whether grenet Grenada can

911
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,600
stand up to China or the u.s. is
is probably unlikely. 

912
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,200
But there's a great article in 
the in the Verge, I forget the 

913
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:44,700
author's name but will include a
link. 

914
00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:47,400
It's called like the many The 
many escapes of Justin's son, 

915
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,000
this is from not that long ago 
and I really think that Justin 

916
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,700
son is represented figure in 
crypto and when I talk about the

917
00:46:54,707 --> 00:46:58,000
industry as sort of having 
fraudulent or perhaps even 

918
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,000
criminal underpinnings, I don't 
mean that everyone. 

919
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,800
But I think there are some major
figures in crypto who resemble 

920
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,300
who are like Justin sun and they
have a lot of control over the 

921
00:47:07,308 --> 00:47:10,200
industry. 
I mean, people at tether people 

922
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:15,100
perhaps at Finance some of these
big corporations and entities 

923
00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:19,100
that are Based in the 
Seychelles, and in Malta, and in

924
00:47:19,100 --> 00:47:22,500
the Caribbean often through a 
number of shell companies and 

925
00:47:22,500 --> 00:47:25,200
whose operators have Shady 
backgrounds. 

926
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,800
I mean, you can even look at the
CEO of crypto.com, there's a 

927
00:47:27,808 --> 00:47:30,400
Daily Beast article about the 
CEO of crypto.com. 

928
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,700
He basically rug pulled on his 
last company in Southeast Asia, 

929
00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:37,600
which wasn't a crypto company. 
But, you know, you can see the 

930
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,100
history of some of these people.
Like, there's a reason why this 

931
00:47:40,100 --> 00:47:43,200
industry attracts scammers and 
sometimes at a high level, this 

932
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,400
is why the tech press sort of 
throws his hands up on. 

933
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:47,600
Stuff. 
It's sort of like I mean this is

934
00:47:47,607 --> 00:47:50,500
what do you do when it's so 
self-evident that there's yeah 

935
00:47:50,500 --> 00:47:52,800
me Behavior. 
Like what am I even going to 

936
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,200
report? 
I mean, it's sort of like the 

937
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,000
same like Donald Trump political
reporter problem in some ways, 

938
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,500
it's like, yeah, like obviously 
it's bad, like I don't know. 

939
00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:06,000
I'm kudos to you for finding 
angles into it but sometimes I'm

940
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,400
just like what's? 
But that's why the victims angle

941
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,500
probably has to be the clearest 
one here, right? 

942
00:48:11,500 --> 00:48:14,500
Because if a lot of it is just 
playing out in the media or on 

943
00:48:14,500 --> 00:48:16,800
social media and And you know, 
you have these ridiculous 

944
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:18,800
characters who were like, look 
at me what I'm doing. 

945
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,700
As a rug pull, then the only 
real way to prove impact is by 

946
00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:25,600
showing like, well, this is who 
was wrapped up in this person's 

947
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,600
quest for fame and you know, 
short-term Fortune. 

948
00:48:29,100 --> 00:48:31,500
I'd also say that, you know, 
there's some basic things I 

949
00:48:31,508 --> 00:48:33,600
think that people don't really 
realize in this goes back to 

950
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:34,800
what we want to do with our 
book. 

951
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,100
I love for the books, appeal to 
crypto, people, including 

952
00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:41,000
hardcore crypto people. 
But you know, 80 plus percent of

953
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,500
the American population has 
never bought crypto. 

954
00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:48,800
So in a way, it's Be a story 
entertaining, one about crypto 

955
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,400
fraud Financial chicanery, these
kinds of things that can appeal 

956
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,100
to the non crypto person. 
And maybe also make them feel a 

957
00:48:55,107 --> 00:48:57,300
little bit better about missing 
out, but they're, you know, 

958
00:48:57,300 --> 00:48:59,100
they're basic things. 
I think people don't know that. 

959
00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:02,900
Like, for example, 80 to 90% of 
trading on most platforms, on 

960
00:49:02,900 --> 00:49:05,200
most exchanges as wash trading, 
it's fake. 

961
00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:09,800
So, you know, there's an idea of
a free markets, like these bowl 

962
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,400
like buying and selling their 
own NF tease to. 

963
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,000
Yeah, the illusion that they're 
valuable or you own. 

964
00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:19,000
Drive up the prices and you 
create the illusion of volume 

965
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,200
which has a similar effect. 
And there are like the bots of 

966
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,400
social media are astray. 
It's very similar that. 

967
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,500
I mean, they all intersect to on
the stock market. 

968
00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:32,700
You cannot like make trades for 
the intent of making it seem 

969
00:49:32,700 --> 00:49:35,800
like there's a lot of buying 
interest when it's just you try 

970
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,000
that stock market. 
But yeah, I'm pretty sure it's 

971
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:40,500
illegal and it's nice. 
Right. 

972
00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:43,600
Sounds, it sounds like just is 
not like an unfamiliar type of 

973
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,400
thing, that's why it's like okay
yeah. 

974
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,400
You can regulate that. 
So, yeah. 

975
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,700
And I wish people could 
understand also, you can have 

976
00:49:49,700 --> 00:49:52,200
sort of a quote, unquote free 
market, but right now you have a

977
00:49:52,207 --> 00:49:54,700
market that's free to be 
manipulated and it's almost 

978
00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:57,000
undoubtedly manipulated. 
All of the exchanges, pretty 

979
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,700
much maybe some of like, the US 
based ones like, perhaps 

980
00:50:00,700 --> 00:50:04,800
coinbase is better, because it 
is it tries to be in compliance 

981
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:06,500
with the law. 
It's publicly traded. 

982
00:50:06,500 --> 00:50:09,100
It's based here in the US. 
But, you know, these overseas 

983
00:50:09,100 --> 00:50:11,800
exchanges, there are plenty of 
academic studies on them. 

984
00:50:12,100 --> 00:50:14,700
You know, read up on by answer, 
read my article in the 

985
00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:17,000
Washington Post. 
And it's very hard to trust that

986
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,400
these are actually quote 
unquote, free markets in the 

987
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,000
sense of kind of operating 
unfettered right. 

988
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,700
There are more free for people 
to manipulate them. 

989
00:50:24,700 --> 00:50:28,100
And also, I think that they're 
free to be playgrounds for 

990
00:50:28,100 --> 00:50:31,000
high-frequency trading firms, 
which are just cleaning up 

991
00:50:31,700 --> 00:50:35,800
supposedly on some of these 
exchanges because they are work 

992
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,600
much faster and have much better
information than for the average

993
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:40,400
day trader. 
It's funny, the term that always

994
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,900
gets thrown around in Tech in a 
burgeoning industry, as though, 

995
00:50:43,900 --> 00:50:47,000
it's the wild west, right? 
Now, you know, that any time a 

996
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:48,900
new platform comes up in the 
number of startups? 

997
00:50:48,900 --> 00:50:51,400
Go after it, you say, oh, it's 
the wild west, which typically 

998
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,400
just means, like, five or six 
vc-backed, companies are all 

999
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,300
having like, you know, territory
carve-outs to see, who can 

1000
00:50:57,300 --> 00:50:59,800
emerge that number one. 
But, like the actual analogy of 

1001
00:50:59,808 --> 00:51:02,800
the Wild West, which is that it,
there's no governance and people

1002
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,900
are getting shot, like, people 
are getting killed without any 

1003
00:51:05,900 --> 00:51:09,500
sort of repercussions, feels a 
lot more realistic to explaining

1004
00:51:09,500 --> 00:51:12,000
what's happened in crypto. 
And also the people that made a 

1005
00:51:12,008 --> 00:51:13,900
lot of money during the wild 
west there, weren't that many 

1006
00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:17,100
like self-made, entrepreneurs, 
you Came out of nowhere to, you 

1007
00:51:17,107 --> 00:51:20,000
know, ended up becoming whatever
Saloon owner is. 

1008
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,800
Like there was a lot of Eastern 
Capital than it up funding these

1009
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:23,900
things. 
And those were the people that 

1010
00:51:23,900 --> 00:51:26,600
made out on at all. 
So it's finally like the analogy

1011
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:28,500
Rings true and it's and it's 
horrifying. 

1012
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,400
Well, also on another way in 
which it might be, like the wild

1013
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:35,400
west is that in 19th century, 
you had private money in various

1014
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,700
forms. 
You had sort of Corporations, 

1015
00:51:38,300 --> 00:51:41,500
especially railroads, I think 
introducing their own money in 

1016
00:51:41,500 --> 00:51:43,900
certain regions in the west and 
stuff like that. 

1017
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,600
So, there are ways in which 
Crypto is a return to that both 

1018
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,200
the sort of anarchic and in 
Lawless quality of it. 

1019
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,100
And also, these are basically 
corporations. 

1020
00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:56,600
I mean, sometimes are one or two
people, but issuing their own 

1021
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,800
currencies and with all the 
complications that then 

1022
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,700
introduces, in closing here, 
it's like, I feel like the 

1023
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:07,900
burden at this point can be on, 
you know, the defy Community the

1024
00:52:07,900 --> 00:52:11,300
crypto Community to like prove 
that this can work within the 

1025
00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:15,200
regulatory system like it 
doesn't have to exist directly 

1026
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,100
in Contrast to it and say, any 
sort of Regulation would Doom 

1027
00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:19,300
it. 
I don't think it's a very good 

1028
00:52:19,300 --> 00:52:21,400
system if that's the if that's 
the case, right? 

1029
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,500
Like, find a way for this 
technology to further all of the

1030
00:52:25,500 --> 00:52:29,000
goals that you have but also do 
it under, you know, the confines

1031
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,200
of a normative regulatory State 
and if it probably can do that. 

1032
00:52:33,300 --> 00:52:35,900
I mean, it's maybe more 
challenging for them, but 

1033
00:52:36,100 --> 00:52:38,500
there's no question to me that 
it'll be more successful and 

1034
00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:41,500
more beneficial if that happens.
Yeah, I think you'll see fewer 

1035
00:52:41,500 --> 00:52:45,000
sort of social effects. 
I mean, right now, crypto often 

1036
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,400
strikes me Like as a zero sum or
even negative sum game with 

1037
00:52:48,900 --> 00:52:51,600
because it's sort of socially 
corrosive and the environmental 

1038
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,600
effects. 
But look, if we can bring this 

1039
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:57,500
into a more law-abiding and 
regulated system where they're 

1040
00:52:57,500 --> 00:52:59,400
actually protections for 
consumers, which I think is 

1041
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,200
pretty key because most crypto 
buyers are now in the red, 

1042
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,900
especially most Bitcoin buyers. 
I think that would be a lot 

1043
00:53:05,900 --> 00:53:09,000
better for everyone. 
I do think including creating 

1044
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,600
more sustainable businesses. 
I mean, some people in crypto 

1045
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,400
won't want that because then you
miss out on some of the 

1046
00:53:14,408 --> 00:53:17,200
volatility and the Crazy highs 
and lows, which is how some 

1047
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,800
folks make their money and they 
may be far, less exciting. 

1048
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,600
And you may not be able to go 
10,000 x in a year or whatever, 

1049
00:53:22,900 --> 00:53:26,100
but I think that's how you keep 
this stuff alive and bring it 

1050
00:53:26,100 --> 00:53:27,800
into the mainstream. 
Are we going to see like a 

1051
00:53:27,808 --> 00:53:30,600
series of movies? 
Now, I just realized, you know, 

1052
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:35,000
we've gone through the cycle of 
tech TV shows based on like the 

1053
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:39,900
last 10 years of Silicon Valley,
we're probably do like a year or

1054
00:53:39,900 --> 00:53:42,200
two from now from like a series 
of TV shows about all these 

1055
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:42,900
characters. 
Right. 

1056
00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:45,200
I'm sorry to say that I hope to 
write one but who knows what 

1057
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,400
will happen. 
Then I mean I think people just 

1058
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,300
need to like the characters 
aren't as famous but I mean, I 

1059
00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:54,500
think that can act as well. 
It takes time during I always 

1060
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:57,600
think Balaji is interesting. 
I mean, they're sort of the true

1061
00:53:57,700 --> 00:54:01,300
True Believers and then there 
are the sort of money guys. 

1062
00:54:01,300 --> 00:54:04,300
And yeah, I mean there are a lot
of characters but it's also 

1063
00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:06,900
evolving. 
All the text shows were about 

1064
00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:10,500
scamming this corruptive. 
I mean, I getting scammed is 

1065
00:54:10,500 --> 00:54:14,400
such a big part of human nature.
I don't know if I have a lot of 

1066
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,400
optimism that That it's like 
okay we stop people from getting

1067
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,800
scammed in Bitcoin. 
They just like they race to 

1068
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,000
another thing. 
I mean that's true can protect 

1069
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,100
them obviously because I because
it's just like people do the 

1070
00:54:26,100 --> 00:54:28,400
terrible thing that's in front 
of them and if it's not in front

1071
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,100
of them, they don't get scammed.
I mean, I don't even trade 

1072
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,400
individual stocks and I cover 
the technology industry, just 

1073
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,000
like the hubris to me, you know,
that you like, I don't know. 

1074
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:41,400
Some random person thinks 
they're going to be an expert on

1075
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,600
like Dogecoin or whatever. 
It's like, what do you there are

1076
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:46,500
people. 
Closer to it than you. 

1077
00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:51,000
I I am so disconnected from the 
world view of the purse like 

1078
00:54:51,100 --> 00:54:54,700
they know on some level they're 
not in touch with like power and

1079
00:54:54,700 --> 00:54:58,100
like who's actually like doing 
these things and yet they feel 

1080
00:54:58,100 --> 00:55:02,000
confident enough to like ride 
this like crazy wave that they 

1081
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,000
couldn't understand. 
Like I don't know, it's just 

1082
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,000
like there's no humility in it 
to me. 

1083
00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:09,600
I don't know. 
You own any crypto, a view. 

1084
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,600
Like I said, I've been it. 
I don't right now. 

1085
00:55:13,100 --> 00:55:16,600
I haven't, you know, it's funny 
like People in crypto say like, 

1086
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:18,700
well, how can you understand the
stuff if you don't own it or 

1087
00:55:18,700 --> 00:55:21,900
trade it and then you know in 
journalism and usually that is 

1088
00:55:21,900 --> 00:55:24,000
you don't really want to own 
something or be financially 

1089
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,800
invested in what you cover. 
So that's my main reasons. 

1090
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:31,500
I just don't want to be rooting 
for something or but I have been

1091
00:55:31,500 --> 00:55:34,000
thinking about putting in 
service small amount into a 

1092
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,700
portfolio because I just I do 
need a little, you know, 

1093
00:55:36,700 --> 00:55:39,700
first-hand experience with some 
of the stuff and hopefully I 

1094
00:55:39,700 --> 00:55:42,200
won't have it. 
Maybe next time you have me on 

1095
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,400
the show all of had a total 
change of heart and now be like,

1096
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,400
you need to invest That's a 
coin, right? 

1097
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,300
Exactly. 
And just think of coin. 

1098
00:55:48,500 --> 00:55:51,200
You've just been you just been 
too poor for two for too long. 

1099
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:52,700
He didn't that's right. 
The rush. 

1100
00:55:52,700 --> 00:55:56,200
Well, the funny thing is that 
the one host on this show who 

1101
00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:00,000
has the most of her net worth 
tied up in crypto, wasn't able 

1102
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,600
to make it today but look 8,500.
And yeah. 

1103
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,700
So now she has she bought a 
Bitcoin and you know it's not 

1104
00:56:06,700 --> 00:56:10,100
worth like whatever bitcoins 
worth but 9000. 

1105
00:56:10,100 --> 00:56:12,900
I mean, yeah, I should, we 
should one but there's no true 

1106
00:56:12,900 --> 00:56:15,000
neutrality, right? 
There's no neutrality on like 

1107
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,000
what's Okay, to hold like, 
there's no objective right? 

1108
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,400
Number on like the percentage of
your portfolio, that should be 

1109
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,500
in crypto, right? 
Like, so, therefore, you can't 

1110
00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:24,900
construct what I like 
journalistic neutral. 

1111
00:56:24,900 --> 00:56:28,400
Thing is because saying, it's 
zero is an opinion or saying 

1112
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,000
it's 2%, is an opinion, I don't 
know. 

1113
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,000
So I feel like inevitably, 
you're trapped and having to 

1114
00:56:33,008 --> 00:56:35,800
make some sort of judgment about
what is control? 

1115
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:37,800
Portfolio would be. 
Yeah, I'm not sure. 

1116
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:39,300
And I would try to focus on 
things. 

1117
00:56:39,300 --> 00:56:41,700
Like I don't I probably wouldn't
write about. 

1118
00:56:41,900 --> 00:56:43,300
I wouldn't really talk about it 
very much. 

1119
00:56:43,300 --> 00:56:46,700
I think also I have Perhaps, I'm
fortunate that, I don't have a 

1120
00:56:46,707 --> 00:56:49,800
lot of spare money lying around 
to play with, so, yeah, there's 

1121
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,000
that. 
Well, yeah, all right, Jacob. 

1122
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,100
Thanks so much for joining. 
Thank you so much for coming on.

1123
00:56:54,100 --> 00:56:55,300
This is great. 
Thanks a lot. 

1124
00:56:55,300 --> 00:57:08,500
I appreciate it. 
Silicon Valley, goodbye, 

1125
00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:10,500
goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1126
00:57:10,500 --> 00:57:12,200
Goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1127
00:56:59,500 --> 00:57:09,200
Silicon Valley, goodbye, 
goodbye. 

1128
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,800
Goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1129
00:57:11,900 --> 00:57:12,200
Goodbye.