1
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Early Internet era industries 
are dying. 

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Like was there a sense the city 
was like, please, we need you or

3
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or not? 
No, no, no. 

4
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But so no, we would throw huge 
parties like, you know, we did 

5
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some really fancy stuff at the. 
Conferences well and we. 

6
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And and so that so that fed the,
you know, that kind of created 

7
00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,000
the impression, you know, of 
like, you know, spending all 

8
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this money, you know, which we 
were, but, you know, it was all 

9
00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,760
sponsor money anyway. 
So I was very upset about that. 

10
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And so I wrote this long letter 
to The Washington Post. 

11
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You could at least correct these
factual errors and but then 911 

12
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so. 
On the podcast A History of San 

13
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Francisco, it is defining the 
Nation Today with companies like

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Open AI and Anthropic 
threatening to destroy every job

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00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,560
in the world. 
Jonathan Weber, the newcomers 

16
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editor at large, former editor 
in chief of the Industry 

17
00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,480
Standard and the San Francisco 
Standard, and a top tech editor 

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at Reuters, He's seen it all, is
out with a new book on the 

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history of San Francisco and 
what tech did to it. 

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That book City on the On the 
Edge. 

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He comes on the show just as 
audiences are booing 

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commencement speakers. 
Interesting. 

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In the book, he captures the 
disconnect between the 

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technology set and the rest of 
us, and we start off the episode

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talking about why people are so 
sour on what San Francisco is 

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building right now. 
This is the Newcomer podcast 

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hosted by me, Eric Newcomer, 
author and creator of The 

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Newcomer Substack. 
Find us at newcomer.co for 

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00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,360
insider's look into venture 
capital and everything going on 

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00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:37,200
in Silicon Valley. 
Literally this week, Eric 

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Schmidt, you know, the former 
CEO of Google is getting booed 

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during a commencement speech for
talking about AI and sort of the

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coming disruption. 
So I wanted to take sort of, you

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know, from thinking about the 
history of the tech industry, 

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what, what do you make of sort 
of how out of touch the tech 

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executives are or I'm, you know,
once out of touch, but also, you

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know, I'm an AI sympathetic. 
Yeah. 

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What do you make of him getting 
booed on stage? 

39
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,800
Yeah, well, that was was quite 
dramatic to see. 

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And I, I do want to say first of
all, thanks Eric for for having 

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me here. 
It's been a great pleasure to 

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work with you over the years in 
various capacities. 

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Yeah. 
No, we've had you on the 

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podcast. 
We've had you on an earlier 

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iteration in the podcast. 
Right. 

46
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Yeah, very. 
No, I don't think so. 

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This is our first, first I think
our. 

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Podcast appearance. 
I love it. 

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Here. 
We are in New York City. 

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Yeah, so, so that's very 
exciting. 

51
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I really appreciate it. 
And it's been a lot of fun to 

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work on this book alongside 
working with you and, and, and 

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seeing how the AI industry has 
developed. 

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A lot of that post dates the 
kind of conclusion of the book. 

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The book really ends in 24, but 
it certainly looks ahead at at 

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at the AI developments and and 
the theme that we see kind of 

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coming to a certain kind of 
fruition with Eric Schmidt being

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booed is really a shift, very 
dramatic shift in popular 

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sentiment towards technology, 
towards towards the industry and

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towards Silicon Valley, which is
kind of the metaphor for the 

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industry. 
And historically America is a is

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a techno optimist country, 
right? 

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We believe in in technology as a
means of making the world a 

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better place, making our lives 
better. 

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That was certainly true in the 
1990s, which is when the book 

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starts and kind of the beginning
of the commercial Internet, the 

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rise of the World Wide Web. 
And the culture in San Francisco

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at the time was was a very kind 
of effervescent, very optimistic

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culture. 
We're going to change the world 

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with technology. 
We're going to make the world a 

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better place. 
And then over the course of 30 

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years, you know, that kind of 
that had an arc to it and, and a

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lot of those hopes and dreams 
from the beginning were really 

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ended in disappointment. 
And I think now with, with AI, 

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we have a real, you know, real 
cynicism about, about tech and, 

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and, and A, and a kind of 
distrust of the elites who are 

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kind of selling this tech to us.
Which is not a San Francisco 

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specific thing. 
It's, you know, across the 

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United States. 
The United States in particular 

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feels like, relative to some, to
like developing countries. 

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The US in particular seems very 
anxious about artificial 

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intelligence. 
Yeah, I think, I think that's 

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00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,080
true. 
And I, and I do think it's very 

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related to the political 
dynamics in the country 

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actually, because I think that, 
and you certainly see this in 

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San Francisco, where the rise of
AI essentially coincided with a 

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big political shift where the, 
the tech industry had 

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traditionally been a, a fairly 
capital D democratic industry, 

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certainly committed to kind of 
liberal social values. 

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And that sort of flipped in the,
in the Trump era. 

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And you have the rise of a, of a
cadre of right wing tech 

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00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,280
executives. 
And, and they've been very, very

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dismissive of, of public 
concerns about, about AI, about 

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the job impacts and 
environmental impacts and other 

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things. 
They're very, very dismissive of

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that. 
And I think that that is a huge 

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error and and is part of what's 
contributed to the public 

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backlash. 
I mean, I think one thing that 

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people need to understand going 
into this conversation today, 

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you know, we're pretty sloppy at
newcomer between Silicon Valley 

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and San Francisco because 
Silicon Valley sort of moved up.

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They're like, Oh yeah, you know,
there are a lot of the venture 

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firms spend a lot of their time 
in San Francisco. 

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The junior partners want to be 
there. start-ups are, you know, 

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building there. 
Of course, some of the bigger 

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companies then leave. 
But you know, like the zeitgeist

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is San Francisco. 
But when the book starts, 

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00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,920
there's Silicon Valley with 
Apple that's booming, and San 

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Francisco has some, you know, a 
few quirky tech companies. 

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Or how would you describe San 
Francisco in the beginning of 

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the Internet era? 
Yeah. 

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So if you so 1990, it's 
essentially when the book 

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begins, there really isn't a 
tech industry in San Francisco 

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at all. 
I mean, there, there's one or 

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two tiny companies I talk about 
a, an outfit called Jasmine 

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Technologies that made hard disk
drives, but that was essentially

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it. 
There was no substantial 

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00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,400
companies. 
We're no substantial companies. 

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Technology was a Silicon Valley 
thing. 

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It was S it was an hour to the 
South. 

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It was a different world. 
It was very much a, a kind of 

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government driven, military 
driven technology industry 

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historically. 
So the Silicon and Silicon 

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Valley, the chip industry was 
government driven at the 

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beginning. 
And so it was a very different 

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culture, a very different world.
San Francisco was in a it's kind

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of post counterculture period. 
It was coming out of some pretty

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pretty rough economic and and 
cultural times in the in the 70s

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and the 80s. 
People have been like killed, 

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00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:07,400
right? 
I mean, obviously politicians 

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have been killed and a sort of 
radical. 

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Dramatic, you know, after that 
there was sort of the, the 

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Summer of love in the 60s. 
And then the 70s were just a 

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very traumatic time in the city.
There was the assassinations of 

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of George Moscone and Harvey 
Milk in City Hall by a by a 

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former policeman and and it was 
a very, very fraught time. 

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There was the zebra killings. 
There. 

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I'd never heard of that before. 
Killings were basically black 

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people were killing randomly, 
shooting white people on the 

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streets, a small band of of 
black guys and. 

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For ideological reasons or. 
Yeah, it was, it was a little 

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bit unclear, but yeah, you know,
revolution, you know, and there 

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was the Black Panthers in 
Oakland and they were then Patty

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Hearst was kidnapped. 
So there was all of that, you 

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know. 
And so so the 70s were a time of

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kind of big trauma in a way. 
And then that sort of calmed 

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down a little bit in the in the 
80s. 

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But the but the economy of the 
city was a very was a real mixed

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bag. 
You know, there was tourism was 

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strong, but all the 
manufacturing was going away. 

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You know, there used to been, 
you know, steel mills and other 

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kinds of manufacturing that was 
all going away. 

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The Navy was going away. 
And so the so the economy was 

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kind of weak, but the culture 
sure was very rich. 

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So there. 
Was one thing that stood out to 

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me about Jasmine as you were 
just describing it as, you know,

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customer obsessed. 
You know, they're they're making

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like what external hard drives 
effectively for the Mac. 

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00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,880
But but it's like, oh, these are
sort of they're, they're just 

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very worried about their 
customer and sort of build a 

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brand in a way that almost felt 
like not about, you know, even 

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sort of making money 
necessarily. 

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00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:48,080
Yeah, that's right. 
Yeah. 

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True. 
Like it was just, it feels like 

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everybody's ruled by, you know, 
optimizing for money these days 

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00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,720
it. 
Yeah, and it really was very 

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00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:03,640
different in that regard. 
Like so as the 90s wore on and 

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00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,760
the web was created, you know, 
so the web didn't exist before 

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the early 90s. 
I mean, the Internet did, but 

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the web started in the early 90s
and the web, the 1st website as 

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we know it really was probably 
hotwired. 

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So at Wired magazine, they were 
not only writing about this 

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stuff, but they were also 
actually inventing the website 

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as we know it in the banner ad 
and and other things. 

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So it was a very kind of 
creative moment and there was a 

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lot going on. 
And so as, as it proceeded 

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through the 90s, people became 
aware that like, oh, you know, 

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maybe there's like money in 
this. 

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So that was interesting to, to 
to some people, certainly, but 

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it was not really the main 
driver for most people through 

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that early period. 
And it was really more the 

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possibility of doing something 
really cool and really 

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interesting and that, you know, 
that was the main motivator. 

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And then in the late 90s you had
so Netscape went public and that

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00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:08,840
sort of in in the mid 90s, I 
want to say 90, five, I always 

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00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,280
get this year mixed up 9495. 
But Netscape went public and 

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that was kind of the starting 
gun for like, Oh my God, you 

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00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,560
know, there's money, money to be
made. 

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00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:21,160
There's money to be made here. 
So so that started to change the

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00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,680
dynamic a little bit, right? 
That was Marc Andreessen's 

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00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:25,640
company. 
So Marc Andreessen had been a 

192
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,880
graduate student at the 
University of Illinois at the 

193
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,040
supercomputer center there. 
And then together with 

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00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,760
colleagues, they had written a 
web browser called Mosaic, which

195
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:41,120
sort of advanced the kind of 
protocols originally developed 

196
00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,560
by Tim Berners Lee for the World
Wide Web. 

197
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,000
So there. 
So the Mosaic browser was the 

198
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,200
first tool for mere mortals to 
use the Internet. 

199
00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,360
And. 
And so then Jim Clark, who was a

200
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,000
frustrated entrepreneur who had,
who had started Silicon Graphics

201
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,040
and then been kicked out by his 
board and had a huge chip on his

202
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:08,360
shoulder about proving himself 
and he saw the mosaic and he 

203
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,240
called Marc Andreessen. 
Mark came to Silicon Valley. 

204
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,960
They agreed to start a company 
together, originally called 

205
00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,280
Mosaic Communications, actually,
but then for trademark reasons, 

206
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,240
they had to change that. 
There was a lot of litigation 

207
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,240
etcetera. 
It didn't ultimately matter too 

208
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,520
much. 
But so they started Netscape and

209
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,520
that was kind of the first sort 
of Internet company as as we 

210
00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,520
think about that did. 
San Francisco, invite the tech 

211
00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,600
industry in like you think in 
the beginning, you know, early 

212
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,960
Internet era. 
It's like industries are dying. 

213
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,000
Like was there a sense the city 
was like please, we need you or 

214
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,320
or not? 
No. 

215
00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,600
No, no, so, no. 
So the city was like very 

216
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,520
disconnected. 
You know, one of the strange 

217
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,520
things through the whole book is
like there's, there's a, there's

218
00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:57,640
quite a bit of disconnect really
between the city government and 

219
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,200
the industry. 
So the city was like practically

220
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,840
not even aware of what was going
on. 

221
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,240
And so there were a lot of 
people, you know, just 

222
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,680
individuals and creative people,
techies, different kinds of 

223
00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:10,880
artists and stuff who would 
commandeered like these 

224
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,240
abandoned warehouses and soma 
and stuff. 

225
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,480
And they were just kind of doing
stuff. 

226
00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:18,440
I mean, Wired showed up and 
these, I mean, South Park was 

227
00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,280
still kind of a dangerous 
neighborhood actually back then,

228
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but but you could rent space for
$0.50 a square foot. 

229
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And so people just kind of 
started doing stuff. 

230
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And the, and the, the reason 
that it was happening in the 

231
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,880
city was because the people who 
were creating it were the 

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creative types who wanted to be 
in the city. 

233
00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:43,440
They did not want to be living 
in boring Silicon Valley 

234
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,760
because. 
And part of this is the Mac and 

235
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,880
the idea that you could use a 
mouse and there are graphical 

236
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,600
interfaces and images were going
on the Internet. 

237
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,960
All of a sudden, what had been 
sort of the nerdy domain of 

238
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,880
chips was now opened up to sort 
of the designers and other 

239
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:00,680
people in San Francisco. 
Exactly. 

240
00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:03,200
So tech became a somewhat 
different kind of thing. 

241
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,280
It wasn't just about the hard 
science, about the physics and 

242
00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,360
the engineering now, about the 
design and the creative 

243
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,000
expression and the writing. 
You know, the web is, you know, 

244
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,760
EV Williams, the CEO of Twitter,
said this to me, you know, that 

245
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,200
that Silicon Valley was, you 
know, about chips and, and the 

246
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,920
web, you know, was something 
different. 

247
00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,560
The web was about writing and 
arts and expression, you know, 

248
00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:26,720
So it was quite different. 
And that was much more of a San 

249
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Francisco zone of expertise, as 
it were, than than it was in 

250
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,680
Silicon Valley. 
We'll keep in our timeline, but 

251
00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:37,560
it is interesting in this 
present moment, if you're 

252
00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:42,160
bullish on sort of AI coding and
that means that machines are 

253
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,560
more able to be commanded 
basically with plain English. 

254
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,360
You do have to wonder if like, 
oh, what will happen if 

255
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,840
similarly a new set of people is
able to sort of shape the 

256
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,920
future. 
Like what, what pockets of the 

257
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,520
world will embrace tech in sort 
of a in a different way? 

258
00:13:58,520 --> 00:13:59,960
Yeah, well. 
I mean, I certainly, you know, 

259
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,680
an optimistic case around AI 
would be that it will, it will 

260
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:08,120
liberate the creative, the 
creative impulses and, and, and 

261
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,640
really elevate creativity above 
the sort of mere mechanics of 

262
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:14,960
programming a computer. 
So. 

263
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,320
San Francisco city government 
sort of oblivious to, you know, 

264
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,320
that I mean what EFF and people 
are coming up, you know, all 

265
00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,880
sort of these people see the 
Internet coming or doing 

266
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,280
creative things, building out 
forums, building websites. 

267
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,040
When we we talked about Netscape
going public being the moment 

268
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,840
sort of is that when San 
Francisco sort of wakes up that 

269
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:41,080
there's if there's money, 
there's a tax base or when's it 

270
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,160
start changing? 
When's it start registering, I 

271
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:45,760
guess with politicians? 
Yeah, well. 

272
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,680
I I think it really was in the 
in the latter part of the 90s. 

273
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,720
So Willie Brown was elected 
mayor in in 95. 

274
00:14:54,720 --> 00:15:00,640
He took office 96. 
Willie was a was a a brilliant 

275
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:05,280
politic is still he's 91 years 
old, still a brilliant 

276
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,080
politician take. 
Some of the credit for Kamala 

277
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,520
Harris, right? 
Yeah. 

278
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,640
I mean, he was, yeah, she was 
his protege. 

279
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,320
I mean, Willie is responsible 
for the political careers of 

280
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,520
essentially everyone in San 
Francisco at the moment. 

281
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:19,320
He's. 
About. 

282
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,040
Gavin Newsom is also, I wouldn't
call quite call him a Willie 

283
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,880
protege, but certainly Willie 
was instrumental in his in his 

284
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,480
rise. 
Yeah, anyway. 

285
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,600
Willie Brown I just wanted to 
for people I I, I think it's 

286
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,120
worth saying you know, San 
Francisco with the boom of AI is

287
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,520
obviously poised to shape the 
entire country as we're now 

288
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,720
touching on some of the San 
Francisco politicians could be 

289
00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,640
coming to you soon, America. 
So I do think why should you 

290
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,880
consume an episode very focused 
on San Francisco and then go 

291
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,520
read a book very focused on San 
Francisco. 

292
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,640
It's because San Francisco is 
making a lot of the calls that 

293
00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,520
are going to shape your life. 
And anyway, so to go back, why 

294
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,240
should people care about Willie 
Brown? 

295
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,600
We explained it. 
It's like, OK, bringing up some 

296
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,320
of the big politicians. 
You were getting into how he 

297
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,560
recognized the tech industry. 
Yeah. 

298
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,360
And so Willie, you know, for 
those who aren't, aren't 

299
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,680
familiar with him, I mean, he's 
probably, you know, among the 

300
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,320
greatest politicians in American
history, literally. 

301
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,000
I mean, he, you know, he was 
born a poor kid and a segregated

302
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,360
town in Texas and, and from 
there, you know, rose to be 

303
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,800
longtime speaker of the 
California Assembly before he 

304
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,560
was the mayor and very, very 
powerful, very, very shrewd guy.

305
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,360
Brilliant, brilliant guy. 
And, and so Willie was elected 

306
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,520
mayor in 90, in 95, he took offs
in 96. 

307
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,400
The boom, the Internet boom 
started to kind of really take 

308
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,920
off in sort of 97. 
And Willie being a shrewd guy, 

309
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,000
started to notice that there was
something going on here that he 

310
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,840
kind of needed to be aware of a 
little bit. 

311
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,880
And he, he still didn't really 
understand it really, but he had

312
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,240
a little bit of a sense. 
And there's a there's a 

313
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,640
hilarious story in the book, you
know, where so at one point, you

314
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,200
know, some shrewd, like 
stockbroker at Morgan Stanley 

315
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,480
was like, hey, but Mr. Mayor, 
you know, you want to make a 

316
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,800
little money on, on some, you 
know, dot coms. 

317
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,920
And like, this was an era when 
the so the dot coms were going 

318
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,599
public often with very little 
revenue or much of A business, 

319
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:30,440
but it was a real bubble moment.
And so if you could buy shares 

320
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,040
at the opening price, that was 
guaranteed profit. 

321
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,160
And so that was kind of used as 
currency to pay people off in 

322
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,000
different ways. 
So, so this guy was given given 

323
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,160
some shares to Willie and he had
to report that as part of his 

324
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,720
mayoral financial disclosures. 
And so at first he denied any 

325
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,280
special access. 
He was just another day trader, 

326
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,080
you know, it was all pretty, 
pretty funny. 

327
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:55,640
And he made a little bit of 
money on that. 

328
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,880
But but Willie was, you know, he
was shrewd. 

329
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,160
So he saw, you know, that that 
something was coming here and he

330
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,400
started to pay a little bit of 
attention to the industry. 

331
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,280
But it was still, you know, 
relatively small beer. 

332
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,000
Like even in the late, even at 
the peakofthe.com boom, as a 

333
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,080
percentage of the city's 
economy, it was still fairly 

334
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,880
small, you know, maybe 1010%, 
something like that. 

335
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,840
So the, the politicians, you 
know, mostly, mostly had other 

336
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,880
concerns, you know. 
A fun element of the book. 

337
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,120
You start off your reporter at 
the Los Angeles Times assigned 

338
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:34,960
by now famous Marty Baron to go 
to San Francisco when many in 

339
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,720
the media class didn't get the 
importance of the tech industry 

340
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,560
and it was fairly boring. 
By.com, you're running, you're 

341
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,240
the editor of the Industry 
Standard, which was one of, if 

342
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:52,440
not the sort of like, for good 
and bad, synonymous with the.com

343
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,200
bust and boom. 
What? 

344
00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,240
Yeah, what? 
I guess tell us thestoryof.com 

345
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,800
through sort of a little bit of 
the story of your time at the 

346
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,280
Industry Standard. 
OK, sure. 

347
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,440
So, so I was working at the LA 
Times and I was recruited. 

348
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,800
I got a call from a recruiter to
who is working on behalf of John

349
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,200
Battelle, who was starting a new
magazine, a weekly business 

350
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,040
magazine about the digital 
economy. 

351
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:21,440
It didn't have a name at the 
time. 

352
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:27,600
And he had been been referred to
me and he had been hired by 

353
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,960
IDGA, big trade publisher to 
create this new magazine. 

354
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,000
So, so I talked to John and he 
was, you know, he was clearly a 

355
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,640
super smart guy and, and it was 
very controversial decision in a

356
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,800
way to leave the LA Times at 
that time. 

357
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,040
Like, so when I finally decided 
to take the job, you know, 

358
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,160
people looked at me like, is it?
Such a good job. 

359
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,680
Well, cuz the in the 90s, you 
know, the LA Times was, was 

360
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,160
among the top papers in the 
country. 

361
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,400
You know, big newspapers were 
the place to be if you were an 

362
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,400
ambitious journalist. 
There were three or four top 

363
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,280
papers, New York Times, 
Washington Post, LA Times. 

364
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,440
So if you were an up and Comer 
with a good job at the LA Times,

365
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,280
you were kind of. 
On the top track of the 

366
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,800
profession. 
So why would you leave that for 

367
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,800
a weird start up trade thing, 
huh? 

368
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,560
What? 
You know, but it was somewhat 

369
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,000
obvious to me, honestly, I was 
had the chance to build a build 

370
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,880
a magazine and I could and I 
knew that tech was a big story. 

371
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,720
I mean, I, I was the tech editor
at the LA Times. 

372
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,760
I had started a section. 
I'd convinced the bosses that 

373
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,360
tech was really a thing. 
There would be advertisers and 

374
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:40,320
we should do a little weekly 
tech section in the paper, which

375
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,800
which we did. 
It was called the Cutting edge. 

376
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,760
I was very proud of that. 
So I knew there was a big story 

377
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,720
there. 
And, and then, you know, I, I 

378
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,600
quite like John after a number 
of conversations and he hired 

379
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,000
me. 
And so we, so then I went out 

380
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,680
and hired a bunch of people. 
There was a little work going on

381
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,360
with a prototype when I got 
there and then hired up initial 

382
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,400
staff, 15 or 20 people. 
And it was funny, we launched in

383
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,920
98 in the spring and, and it's, 
it's hard to get traction for 

384
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,280
new magazines. 
It, it, it's very expensive. 

385
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:15,160
And, and at the beginning, you 
know, we weren't really going 

386
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,880
anywhere. 
Like the, we didn't have much of

387
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,000
A circulation strategy. 
IDG didn't want to spend the 

388
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,040
money for paid circulation. 
And, and also it was hard to 

389
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,200
compete like we had 
inexperienced reporters. 

390
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,000
We are pretty small. 
We're trying to compete with the

391
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,920
Wall Street Journal, you know, 
so like getting the big scoops 

392
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,880
that would really put us on the 
map was not that easy. 

393
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,720
So the first six months were 
kind of a struggle and, and we 

394
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,600
were under a lot of pressure 
from IDG. 

395
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,120
Like they were going to shut us 
down. 

396
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:45,240
They, you know, they didn't like
the name. 

397
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,720
They didn't, they didn't like a 
lot of things. 

398
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,800
And it became clear that John 
and Pat McGovern, the owner of 

399
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,400
IDG, had very different visions 
for what this thing would be. 

400
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,840
So there was a lot of stress. 
But then like just kind of 

401
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,520
overnight, like we were 
confident. 

402
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,720
We were like, we know this is 
going to work, you know, And 

403
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,240
then just bam, like what was 
the? 

404
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,320
Core story type or what 
resonated? 

405
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:17,120
Well, you know, the core story 
type was basically news analysis

406
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:22,600
about these new.com companies. 
So there would be, you know, we 

407
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,160
would have some scoops on. 
Oh, you know, here's I remember 

408
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,480
one of our early scoops was the 
formation of a company called 

409
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,320
drugstore.com. 
You know, Kleiner Perkins was 

410
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,600
gonna put a bunch of money in 
and, you know, create this 

411
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,920
company, you know, So that was 
a, that was a big, it was. 

412
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,960
Covering the business. 
It was covering well in at 

413
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,000
first, right? 
It was covering the business of 

414
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,960
like the businessof.com, you 
know, So that was sort of the 

415
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,840
heart of it. 
But then it was part of that 

416
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,200
whole thing was the idea that 
this isn't just about like, 

417
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,800
you're gonna have a.com. 
It's like the Internet is going 

418
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,600
to change business as we know 
it. 

419
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,240
That's gonna change everything, 
you know? 

420
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,280
So as we went on, we started to 
write more about bigger picture 

421
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,520
stuff, you know, the Internet 
and politics and the Internet 

422
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,920
and culture and this. 
What I'm about to use is a 

423
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,280
loaded expression in the context
of San Francisco. 

424
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,480
But did you drink the Kool-aid 
like was? 

425
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:16,560
Well, you know that. 
That's a great question because 

426
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,760
you know, by disposition and, 
and, and you know, by 

427
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,040
profession, I, I mean, I'm a 
journalist and I've always been 

428
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,560
a skeptical, I've been a 
skeptical journalist. 

429
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,720
I kind of my, my job is to kind 
of ask questions and, and, and 

430
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,480
sort of poke at the soft spots 
of the story, whatever it is. 

431
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,880
And so when I, when I was 
talking to John about what I 

432
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,960
would do if I were editor of 
this new magazine and I, and I 

433
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,160
told him that I thought what was
really needed was for a 

434
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,520
publication and journalism, they
really played against the hype, 

435
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,480
you know, because it was all, 
you know, hype. 

436
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,480
But people really want to know 
like what's real and what's not.

437
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,920
So we positioned as the 
skeptics, we're going to cut 

438
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,840
through the hype. 
We had like our slogans, like 

439
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,320
99.9% hype free. 
That was what that was one of 

440
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,960
our T-shirts, I think, you know,
so, and, and if you read the, 

441
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,720
you know, the tone of the 
editorial, I mean, if you read 

442
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,840
the magazine from back then, we 
were very much like that. 

443
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,640
You know, we were very tough, 
very, very critical. 

444
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,000
And that formula proved very 
successful. 

445
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,120
People really did like that for 
the reasons that I thought they 

446
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:26,400
would, which is that when 
there's tons of hype, you want 

447
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,000
to know what's real. 
And then, but then we were so 

448
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,040
successful that we we became a 
symbol of the hype, right? 

449
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,080
So we were like, you're just 
overspending. 

450
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,920
Like what happened like? 
What did you what? 

451
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,920
Did you do well? 
It was to me employees. 

452
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,840
Well, so we had these parties, 
you know, so we started having 

453
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,880
party. 
We, we had beer and chips for 

454
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,480
the staff. 
So the magazine closed at 2:00 

455
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,520
on Friday afternoon. 
We shipped the last pages and 

456
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,080
then we would have beer and 
chips for the staff on the roof.

457
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,600
Then we started inviting people.
Then a lot of people started 

458
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,000
coming. 
Then companies wanted to 

459
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,880
sponsor, you know, So then it 
became like, you know, gourmet 

460
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,480
booze and, you know, fancy food 
sponsored by HP, you know, come 

461
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,200
to the rooftop. 
And then there'd be a line out 

462
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,480
the door and then there, you 
know, then we started having the

463
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,800
rooftop at bigger venues and 
it's amazing. 

464
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,760
That HP has been fueling the 
events business like course 

465
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,000
sponsors. 
Not not this year, but my 

466
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,080
events. 
It was like such a huge time 

467
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,400
gap, I. 
Remember totally that that one 

468
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,640
of the we had a rooftop, A 
rooftop, standard rooftop at 

469
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,200
Bimbos nightclub, which is a 
very large club, you know, and 

470
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,520
this place was packed out, all 
sponsored by HP, you know, top 

471
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:38,880
shelf booze, you know, 
everything. 

472
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,440
So that stuff, you know, and 
then we had a conference 

473
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,240
business and the conferences 
also were just tremendously 

474
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,400
successful, you know, so we 
would sell out these 

475
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,840
conferences, 3 or $4000 tickets,
you know, for three days at a 

476
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,520
fancy resort and sponsors paying
100 grand, you know, so it was 

477
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,000
very lucrative. 
And then in association with 

478
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,680
that, we would throw huge 
parties. 

479
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,160
You know, we did some really 
fancy stuff at the conferences. 

480
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,160
And. 
So that so that fed the, you 

481
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,440
know, that kind of created the 
impression, you know, of like, 

482
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,920
ah, you know, spending all this 
money, you know, which we were, 

483
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,080
but you know, it was all sponsor
money. 

484
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:14,720
What? 
What is the? 

485
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,240
Lesson I need to learn from this
or you know what? 

486
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,160
How similar does this moment 
feel to the.com? 

487
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,480
I would say it feels a little 
bit similar. 

488
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,120
Yeah, it does feel a little bit 
similar. 

489
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:29,800
I mean, there's there's, you 
know, there's a big kind of 

490
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,280
disconnect between, you know, 
the amount of money, you know, 

491
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,560
that's going into these 
companies and the sort of 

492
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:39,120
evidence, you know, business 
that they have to justify that 

493
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:43,000
amount of money. 
So, so that certainly feels 

494
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,800
quite similar and I feel. 
Like all this sort of like, I 

495
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,400
don't know, decadence gets 
written in after the fact, 

496
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,320
right? 
Things that just seem sort sort 

497
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,480
of normal then when you have to 
write a narrative are decadent. 

498
00:26:58,560 --> 00:26:59,920
I don't know. 
Do you really think there are 

499
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,080
these times that are like 
drastically more decadent than 

500
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,200
others or people just zero in to
like this? 

501
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,680
I mean, there's some. 
Better parties. 

502
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,440
I, I do think, you know, to me, 
and maybe I'm just older and not

503
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,200
in, you know, the same, same 
rooms, but you know, it, I don't

504
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,000
see the, the visible decadence 
isn't quite as extreme as it was

505
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,400
in the in the.com area. 
You know, I think people are a 

506
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,720
little more conscious of at 
least, you know, keeping that 

507
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,080
inside maybe, you know, the 
Super decadent parts. 

508
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:32,000
Yeah. 
Soyouknow.com crashes, but San 

509
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:38,040
Francisco is not so dependent on
the tech industry that that sort

510
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,800
of ruins the place or anything. 
Yeah. 

511
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,360
Well, so after 9, you know, 911 
Oh I. 

512
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:47,520
Love the I love the moment. 
What you you were complaining 

513
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,320
about your how someone had 
covered you or something you 

514
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,120
asked for like a correction. 
And then like you said it 

515
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:56,640
September 10th and it's like 
whatever. 

516
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,640
So it captures the moment that 
like September 11th, you know, 

517
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,360
obviously horrible reoriented 
all culture, but it was sort of 

518
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:06,240
like declare bankruptcy on 
everything you cared about 

519
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:07,720
before then and just like move 
on. 

520
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,280
What was the what was the 
quibble or I forget what you 

521
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,480
were fighting about? 
Yeah. 

522
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,360
Well, the so when we we went 
bankrupt with with a loud a 

523
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:21,320
bang, it was quite a surprise to
most people, including me. 

524
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,600
The we still had a lot of money 
in the bank. 

525
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,480
There was a game of chicken 
between the two factions on the 

526
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,320
board, and I thought surely they
would come to an agreement, but 

527
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,560
they didn't. 
And we went bankrupt and the 

528
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,840
bankruptcy. 
So we were a symbol of the end 

529
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,440
of the.com era. 
And so people had, you know, the

530
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,240
the market had crashed in the 
spring of 2000. 

531
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,600
It took about a year for all 
that to play through. 

532
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,960
So by the middle of 2001, like 
it was just a meltdown out 

533
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,760
there, you know, and it was 
clearthatthe.com party was over.

534
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,520
But there hadn't been a good 
event to symbolize it, and so we

535
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,920
were that event. 
So the bankruptcy, the industry 

536
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,920
standard became a symbol of the 
end of the.com era. 

537
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,040
And so there was a lot of press.
So we have gotten a lot of press

538
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,000
on the way up, you know, the 
most successful magazine, new 

539
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,840
magazine in history, blah, blah,
you know. 

540
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,720
And so that's fun, you know, and
then on the way down, you kind 

541
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,760
of get the other side of it. 
As I say in the book, it was now

542
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,200
our turn in the barrel. 
And so there was a lot of very 

543
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,520
critical press and one story in 
particular that really pissed me

544
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,840
off, which was a a style section
story in the Washington Post by 

545
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,040
Sharon Waxman, who now runs the 
rap. 

546
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,560
And and it was just the easiest,
like, oh, they blew all their 

547
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,280
money on parties and now 
they're, you know, getting what 

548
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,280
they deserve kind of tone and, 
and it just really, really 

549
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:51,080
rankled. 
Yeah. 

550
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,480
And there were a lot of errors, 
you know, there, there were a 

551
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,960
dozen errors and it you know, 
and it like relied super heavily

552
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,840
on like low level people who 
didn't know anything about what 

553
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,880
was going on, but who she 
happened to know, you know, and 

554
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,600
then. 9/11 happened. 
You never got. 

555
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,360
It was in the Washington Post. 
It was in the. 

556
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,640
Washington Post and, and I, you 
know, I wrote this long letter, 

557
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,240
you know, about how like, you 
know, the story was unfair. 

558
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,080
Well, the other thing that made 
me really mad actually, was that

559
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,240
this was really the real thing. 
Is that a principle that I've 

560
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:20,800
always adhered to as a 
journalist? 

561
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,920
Is that anonymous blind quote, 
like blind quotes that are 

562
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,200
personally critical of someone 
are not allowed, you know, So if

563
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:35,040
you want to be a, if you want to
be personal about somebody's bad

564
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,880
actions, you got to put your 
name behind it. 

565
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,960
And so the story was full of 
anonymous quotes from IDG 

566
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,000
executives blaming me and John 
for the failure, like they owned

567
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,320
the company, you know, and 
blaming management, you know. 

568
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,600
So anyway, so I was very upset 
about that. 

569
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,040
And so I wrote this long letter 
to the Washington Post so that 

570
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,840
you could at least correct these
factual errors. 

571
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,920
And but then 911, so the tech. 
Industry loves to talk about 

572
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,880
this idea that whenever you see 
the media cover the thing you 

573
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,680
actually know a lot about, you 
become disillusioned with media.

574
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,360
And in some ways this is sort of
what you're saying. 

575
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,120
You got covered and you were 
disillusioned. 

576
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,600
There was another moment in the 
book. 

577
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,360
Let's step out of time in 
archaeology here for a second. 

578
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,760
Where you're at Burning Man, 
which is another big character 

579
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,400
in or place of importance in the
book outside of San Francisco, 

580
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,320
but created and populated by San
Francisco people. 

581
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,400
And, you know, there's like 
terrible, like mud storm where 

582
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,720
like there it rains really badly
and then there's so much mud and

583
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,080
everybody who wanted to get out 
early was sort of inconvenience.

584
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,120
But the media makes it seem like
people are like starving and all

585
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,160
the rich people are suffering. 
And and it basically was one of 

586
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,080
these cases where like don't let
a good story get in the way of 

587
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,360
the facts sort of situation. 
It's like, oh, people want the 

588
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,160
shortened fraud and don't really
reporters don't don't check it 

589
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,520
too good, too good to check. 
I don't know, like you're 

590
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,240
professionally in media yet in 
these two sort of pivotal 

591
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,720
moments where you're in the 
news, you're, you know, you have

592
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,760
a negative experience. 
Like, I don't know what is what 

593
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,520
is your gloss on sort of such a 
big question? 

594
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,960
I'm trying to narrow it for you.
But yeah, what do you make of 

595
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,480
those 22 incidents, Right? 
Well, I think that, you know, 

596
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:26,000
certainly in the, I mean, the 
first instance I think of really

597
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,480
as just a good lesson in sort of
feeling, you know, as a 

598
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,600
journalist, it was it was very 
educational to be on the other 

599
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,040
side of it and not. 
All media is the same, like some

600
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,880
of the coverage was fair and 
some was well. 

601
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,040
Exactly, And and so that was 
really more my you know, my take

602
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,240
away was not that Oh my God, you
know, the media is all fucked 

603
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,600
up. 
But but more like, yeah, you 

604
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,800
know, this can really turn 
against you sometimes in in ways

605
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,280
that you don't expect and you 
can't really control. 

606
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,920
And and that's very frustrating 
and kind of upsetting. 

607
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,000
You know, I thought that on 
bounce. 

608
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,080
You know, as I think I also 
mentioned in there, you know, 

609
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:08,520
there was that story that I 
hated. 

610
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,720
But, you know, the, the Wall 
Street Journal did a very long 

611
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,720
story about, you know, the, the,
the end by Matthew Rose, who's 

612
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,920
still around. 
And that was a very good story. 

613
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,600
You know, it was very accurate. 
It was, it was a little painful 

614
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,080
to read, but you know, it was 
accurate. 

615
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,200
You know, the Burning Man thing,
you know, I, I see as a little 

616
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,680
bit like, I guess I draw a 
distinction in, in, in media 

617
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,360
terms there. 
There's sort of the kind of mass

618
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:45,400
market, you know, popular media 
around, you know, television and

619
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,160
celebrities and this kind of 
stuff, which which is not 

620
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,480
something that I've been too 
involved in. 

621
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,920
And, you know, I've always 
considered that to be a like a 

622
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,680
slightly different realm of from
the journalism that I do. 

623
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,200
And, and I think in the case of 
Burning Man, it was very much 

624
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,480
kind of caught up in that sort 
of, oh, that sort of celebrity 

625
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,960
media world, you know, where the
facts aren't really the point, 

626
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,280
you know, and, and so that kind 
of stuff is, is not not very 

627
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,920
inspiring to to see I. 
I want in our chronology, let's 

628
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,920
skip to sort of Twitter's rise 
because Twitter becomes very 

629
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:27,120
important to San Francisco. 
What that's where? 

630
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:31,600
Is this like 2014 era or Yeah. 
Sort of early 2000 tens, yeah, 

631
00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:32,560
yeah. 
Why? 

632
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,320
Why is Twitter in particular, 
such an important company for 

633
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,120
the city of San Francisco? 
Well, there are several reasons.

634
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:45,360
First of all, it was actually 
the biggest of the, I mean, it 

635
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,639
was the the biggest Internet. 
In the city. 

636
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,159
You know they. 
Didn't build it in San 

637
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:52,520
Francisco. 
Based was not. 

638
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:55,600
In, you know, it was S, you 
know, Google was S, you know, so

639
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,040
so Twitter was, was actually in 
the city. 

640
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,480
So that was significant. 
And also, you know what, what 

641
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,880
Twitter was, I mean, it was and 
what their kind of philosophy 

642
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,840
was early on, you know, where 
the free speech wing and the 

643
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:09,600
free speech. 
And we're going to give, you 

644
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,440
know, a means of expression to 
oppressed peoples around the 

645
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,480
world. 
And we're going to enable the 

646
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,760
Arab Spring and we're going to 
enable the social justice 

647
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,600
movement. 
And so all of these things were 

648
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,280
kind of very consistent with San
Francisco values. 

649
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,120
So, so the company was kind of a
good fit for the city and in 

650
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,800
that way and kind of expressed a
certain political zeitgeist of 

651
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,640
the city. 
And then it also became a kind 

652
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,680
of a physical symbol around its 
building because the the 

653
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,120
building and the negotiation 
around that building resulted in

654
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,520
a a deal with the city where the
city granted a tax break for 

655
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,800
companies to to locate in that 
part of the city. 

656
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,440
And that became known as the 
Twitter tax break. 

657
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,560
Twitter was at the center of 
that discussion. 

658
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,160
So that's. 
When that? 

659
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,440
Helped them really become a 
symbol of San Francisco, San. 

660
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,360
Francisco is sort of inviting 
tech in. 

661
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,720
It's like if you're giving tax 
breaks, you want the tech 

662
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:09,760
industry there. 
Well, correct. 

663
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,880
And so later on, so again in the
night, you know, it was a 

664
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,800
progression. 
So in the 90's the industry kind

665
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,800
of grew up and the book reflects
us. 

666
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,760
So the book at the beginning is 
sort of more about the growth of

667
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,280
the Internet and the the the, 
the rise of the San Francisco 

668
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,280
tech community and has a little 
bit less to do with the 

669
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,160
politics. 
And then the politics come more 

670
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,600
later on, because as once you're
big. 

671
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,720
And there's money to be had. 
Then the politicians start. 

672
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,720
Yeah, exactly. 
So then it starts to become a 

673
00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:42,040
thing, you know, and it's a big 
industry. 

674
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,920
So that started to happen in the
in the 2000s. 

675
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,360
So. 
So Newsom was mayor during the 

676
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,640
2000s. 
And Newsom, you know, he saw the

677
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,960
tech coming and he wanted to do 
certain things, but citywide 

678
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:57,680
wireless was one of his big 
ideas. 

679
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,640
So I write about this in the 
book and and Gavin, you know, 

680
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:06,040
he's he's he's he's an idea 
volcano as somebody who I spoke 

681
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,880
to called him and he's he's a 
smart guy and he has a lot of 

682
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:10,760
ideas. 
He's very bad at the follow 

683
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,400
through. 
So that was pretty 

684
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,440
characteristic. 
So there is no free citywide 

685
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,200
wireless and, and many of the 
other programs that he was 

686
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,280
excited about didn't, didn't 
really happen, but it certainly 

687
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,240
was becoming clear in the 2000s 
that tech and, and this was sort

688
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:32,600
of the Web 2.0 era, I guess. 
And, and then at the end of the 

689
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,760
2000s, you really had this new 
wave of companies starting to 

690
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,400
come up and that sort of 
coincided with the Great 

691
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,600
Recession. 
So there was a funny dynamic 

692
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,840
there where the all the, a lot 
of the jobs in banking and 

693
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:50,320
finance and stuff were going 
away. 

694
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,760
The city was really hurting, 
actually the city. 

695
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,920
Become Wells Fargo, Bank of 
America. 

696
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,440
Wells Fargo was important to the
city, Yeah. 

697
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,200
They were very, very important 
and you know, Schwab and other, 

698
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:04,600
you know, financial services was
it was big thing. 

699
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,320
And so the great financial 
crisis hurt the city in that 

700
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,480
regard and and tourism, you 
know, was down. 

701
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,120
People didn't have money. 
But then sort of underneath 

702
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,280
that, without people noticing 
too much, you know, the, the 

703
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,200
tech was really starting to, to 
boil. 

704
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:28,680
And then that really started to 
explode in 2010, two, 1011, 

705
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,600
where you had a whole new wave 
of companies. 

706
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,920
So then you had, you had Twitter
and you had Facebook. 

707
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,920
Google was getting huge. 
And even though Google wasn't in

708
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,160
the city, a lot of people, a lot
of Google employees lived in the

709
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,160
city. 
And then and then you had in 

710
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:49,720
kind of 2002 thousand, 2010 and 
11, you had Uber, Airbnb, 

711
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,600
Dropbox, you know, so then you 
have the whole kind of next wave

712
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,720
of of companies that grew up in 
the 2000 tens. 

713
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,840
There's a lot of them associated
with their smartphone and what 

714
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,840
that enabled now. 
We're in the era of the open a 

715
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,720
eyes and anthropics and the labs
are, I mean, literally now we. 

716
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:10,120
Have now we have another wave. 
You know, you can think of it as

717
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,520
like the you know there was the 
first wave around the rise of 

718
00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:17,600
the web. 
Then you had you had kind of a 

719
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,200
the web 2 point O phase, the 
rise of blogging, which you know

720
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,160
was very interesting. 
There was a lot of interesting 

721
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,520
things happening, although it 
wasn't quite such a big boom. 

722
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,400
Then you have the next kind of 
big boom around the smartphone 

723
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,680
in the 2000 tens. 
Then you had COVID and so forth.

724
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,360
And now we're in kind of the AI 
boom, which is yet another era 

725
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,760
of of growth the I. 
Mean the housing market in San 

726
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,800
Francisco is insane are we do is
this sort of a Twitter or an X 

727
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,560
invention or you think it's 
real. 

728
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,120
I feel like I see all these 
listings where housing is like, 

729
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,800
you know, houses in San 
Francisco are going for, I don't

730
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,200
know, 50% above their value or 
something. 

731
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,480
Yeah, well, they're all these. 
AI employees are getting, yeah. 

732
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,480
There's a huge amount of money 
coming in, you know, at the, at 

733
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,920
the sort of the high end. 
And, you know, San Francisco's a

734
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,480
small city. 
There hasn't been that much 

735
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,880
construction, so there isn't 
that much inventory. 

736
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,360
And, you know, suddenly, you 
know, if you have, you know, if,

737
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:21,120
if, if 500 people make enough 
money, suddenly have enough 

738
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,040
money to buy, you know, a $10 
million house, you know, that's 

739
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,640
going to change the market. 
It doesn't take that many 

740
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,240
people, you know, at that, at 
those kinds of price points 

741
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:35,200
'cause there just aren't that 
many houses, you know, and the 

742
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,960
city has done a terrible job. 
I mean, one of the big crises in

743
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,080
San Francisco is that there 
hasn't been enough housing 

744
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,920
instruction for decades. 
So there's very little 

745
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,760
inventory. 
And so when you get, you know, 

746
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,920
an influx of money and influx of
people, as you have now with the

747
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,320
AI, you know, it's just really 
sent prices through the roof, 

748
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,760
both rental and sale prices. 
And that's a real problem for 

749
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,640
the city because it, it, it 
drives out everyone else. 

750
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,320
And you know, the service 
workers, you know, you need the 

751
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,560
service workers both because you
need people to work in the 

752
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,640
restaurants and, and and so 
forth. 

753
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,000
But also like the service 
workers are often a part of the,

754
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,400
of the cultural economy, right? 
So it's, it's kind of a cliche 

755
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,840
about the, you know, the actor 
who's waiting tables in the 

756
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,400
restaurant, right? 
But that that's a real thing, 

757
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:31,200
you know, So if, if that, if 
that person, you know, can't get

758
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,720
the job in the restaurant and 
there's and and they, you know, 

759
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,880
theater business is sort of soft
like that person is going to 

760
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,000
move and and then you know this.
Is adjacent to sort of the, I 

761
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,880
think where we might have some 
disagreement or where I'm 

762
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,000
interested to tease out. 
I mean, I think, you know, 

763
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,920
there's an argument in the book,
basically, you know, in the 

764
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,280
beginning of the Internet, the 
government sort of funded it. 

765
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,200
It was these quirky researchers 
doing fun stuff. 

766
00:41:58,400 --> 00:41:59,760
There wasn't that much money to 
be made. 

767
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,520
They just literally one of the 
characters in the book wants to 

768
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,400
go to raves and do drugs. 
You know, it's like, how do I 

769
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,360
invite people to do rave, go to 
raves and do drugs? 

770
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,000
Like I'll post about it online. 
Email's not enough. 

771
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,520
We need forums, you know, and 
they're so you're having like 

772
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,840
fun and then, you know, we build
real businesses and it's sort of

773
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,400
the businesses, I guess, suck 
out some of the like creativity 

774
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,880
and like San Francisco Ness of 
it all do. 

775
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,800
Why? 
Why do you think sort of the 

776
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,160
businesses are sort of killing 
that sort of spark of joy and 

777
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:32,440
creativity? 
Like that's still possible, Like

778
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,000
those people can still go and be
creative. 

779
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,960
Maybe it's more expensive to do 
in San Francisco, so you move 

780
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,360
somewhere else. 
I guess, you know, I to me it 

781
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,640
reads more just like the ebbs 
and flows of culture or like 

782
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,400
people feel driven to do certain
things at a given moment. 

783
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,560
It's like nobody's stopping sort
of a creative, quirky person 

784
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,400
from doing creative quirky stuff
today. 

785
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,040
They're just different sort of 
cultural moments or. 

786
00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:59,680
Yeah. 
Well, that I mean, yeah, you 

787
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,120
could certainly, certainly argue
that, you know, I think that the

788
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,960
the incentive structures are 
very are very different. 

789
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:13,640
And you know, these days, if 
you're, if you're kind of an 

790
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:20,560
entrepreneur, if, if you're not 
optimizing for being successful 

791
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:25,000
as a, as a start up and the 
funding and all of that and the 

792
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,520
growth and all, you know, the 
whole package of what you need 

793
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,680
to be a VC funded startup. 
Like if you're not doing that, 

794
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:33,880
then you're sort of not a 
serious person. 

795
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,680
You know, then you're just, oh, 
you're just a, oh, it's just a 

796
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,160
lifestyle business or oh, it's 
just a, you know, you're not 

797
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,160
really enough to win it. 
And so not, not a serious 

798
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,320
person. 
So there So there's there's kind

799
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:51,520
of a a disrespect towards non 
entrepreneurial endeavors. 

800
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,480
So, you know, making, you know, 
making money with your start up 

801
00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:00,280
is sort of the prestige thing to
do and everything else is just 

802
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,520
kind of for the lightweights, 
you know, so that so that I 

803
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,240
think is different and in an 
earlier era it's shaped. 

804
00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:09,640
The culture. 
The culture has become this 

805
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,400
pressure to build a better and 
Better Business. 

806
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,960
Or. 
Fundraising vehicle, Yeah. 

807
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:20,000
Well, and, and you know, when I,
and this is of course super 

808
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,160
anecdotal, it's very, it's very 
hard to prove, but, but just in 

809
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,000
my casual interactions, you 
know, the, the young, you know, 

810
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,200
the 20 somethings, they're like 
really focused on like making 

811
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,960
this thing work, you know, I 
mean, they're like, you know, 

812
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,520
grinding and they want the money
and they want, you know, and 

813
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:42,520
that's like, that's really a 
very intense thing and 9:00. 96 

814
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,760
now, yeah. 996 and you know no 
time for sex and no time for 

815
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,720
drinking and no time you know 
and again, like some of this can

816
00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:54,000
be a cliche in its own right and
you know I, I don't want to be 

817
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,640
too categorical about the 
universal truth of it, but but I

818
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:03,680
think that is a is a thing at 
this moment that the success in 

819
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,000
business like making your money 
it's like now's the moment you 

820
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,800
know the AI is coming so if you 
don't do it now like forget it, 

821
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,760
you know and you and you better 
get there now 'cause like the 

822
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,800
kid behind you it's like the 
last period of the day it's like

823
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,320
if. 
You don't make money now you're 

824
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,520
life's over here. 
Exactly. 

825
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,840
And, and, and I think that, you 
know, 20 years years ago, it 

826
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,160
wasn't really like that, you 
know, like you were excited 

827
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,240
about your startup, but like it 
was also like, yeah, I'm going 

828
00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:34,920
to Burning Man, you know. 
And so like, you know, if we 

829
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,720
have to do that after Burning 
Man, no biggie. 

830
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:40,880
You know, like that, you know, 
it was just a slightly different

831
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,640
but significant, I sort of 
subtle but substantial 

832
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,760
difference I would say in the in
the sort of the attitude of the 

833
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,840
priority of of kind of making 
money versus like the rest of 

834
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:57,360
life, you know. 
The I want to get into like the 

835
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,040
San Francisco politics of it 
all. 

836
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,880
I mean, there's a great and and 
it collides with this sort of 

837
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,280
capitalism issue we're talking 
about. 

838
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,680
But you have like an amazing 
synthesis right in the beginning

839
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,000
of the book. 
You know, San Francisco has 

840
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,280
always occupied a special place 
in the national psyche. 

841
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,080
The mythic fog shrouded city on 
the edge of the continent, 

842
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,120
mesmerizing its beauty, founded 
by fortune seekers and 

843
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,760
freethinkers, the birth place of
the counterculture and pretender

844
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,200
to the title of the greatest 
city in the world. 

845
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:26,840
And then you're sort of like, 
OK, what? 

846
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,320
What what a political streak is 
sort of undermining that. 

847
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,440
For the right, San Francisco is 
exhibit #1 for the argument that

848
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,800
progressive policies on crime 
and drugs have ruined Democratic

849
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,400
run cities. 
Among moderate Democrats, San 

850
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,880
Francisco is a great example of 
the failures of anti growth 

851
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,240
liberalism as outlined in the 
abundance theory popularized by 

852
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:51,560
journalists Ezra Klein and Derek
Thompson. 

853
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,400
The progressive left has its 
diagnosis too. 

854
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,680
If only the tech companies and 
the billionaires weren't so 

855
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,280
greedy, there'd be plenty of 
resources to solve social 

856
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,120
problems like homelessness. 
So which camp are you most 

857
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,520
sympathetic to? 
Yeah. 

858
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,560
Well, you know, when I started 
this book, I knew that there was

859
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:15,520
going to be a lot of pressure to
to blame somebody to, to decide,

860
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,280
you know, it's it's it's always 
easier when you have good guys, 

861
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,200
bad guys, you know, it's their 
fault. 

862
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,840
And I found it very difficult to
do that in all honesty. 

863
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,840
And, and, you know, they say 
that, you know, success has many

864
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,440
fathers, you know, and, and you 
know, in the same way, I think 

865
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,240
in this case, like there's 
plenty of blame to go around, 

866
00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:40,200
you know, so, so I, I really do 
think that that each of the, you

867
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,840
know, this is an unsatisfying 
answer to the question, but I, 

868
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,400
but I think that each of the 
camps, you know, has a lot to 

869
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,600
answer for in terms of, of how 
they've, you know, really not 

870
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,920
met the moment and, and some of 
these challenges. 

871
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,360
What? 
What is the biggest like failure

872
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,200
in San Francisco? 
Like, I mean, I'm the abundance 

873
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,320
zone, so I'm, I would say a 
failure to build, but there are 

874
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,360
lots of people. 
If you're, if you're in the 

875
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,760
degrowth category, I don't know 
if you stay out of the 

876
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,200
Tenderloin and don't go 
downtown, San Francisco's pretty

877
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,800
great for the people who can 
afford it. 

878
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,840
I don't know what what is your 
core critique? 

879
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:15,960
What has been the failure? 
Well. 

880
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,320
I, you know, I think the biggest
failure of San Francisco is the,

881
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,120
is the inability of the factions
to work together better. 

882
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,920
And, and that, you know, because
it is a it is a very wealthy 

883
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:37,400
city and the there is a lot of 
consensus actually around a lot 

884
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,480
more than you would sort of 
think based on reading the 

885
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,680
headlines, you know, about some 
basic kinds of issues. 

886
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:50,560
But the political factions are 
kind of so dug into their 

887
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,920
positions, you know, that they 
won't work together. 

888
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,800
And that is very, very damaging 
to the city. 

889
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,840
And I think that, you know, an 
example of it that I use in the 

890
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:02,720
book is that in terms of the 
fentanyl problem, right? 

891
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:06,680
So, so drugs are are are very, 
very tough issue. 

892
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,800
It's very tough issue to deal 
with, right? 

893
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,840
You know, many cities, 
countries, you know, struggled 

894
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:17,280
with these problems, right? 
So you have a fentanyl crisis, 

895
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,400
people dying in the streets, 
three people a day. 

896
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,760
And and so you have on the 
right, it's like, well, we just 

897
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,440
need, you know, law and order, 
just throw everyone in jail, you

898
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,800
know, just more cops on the 
streets, you know, and that'll 

899
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,960
be that, you know, and then on 
the other side of the spectrum, 

900
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,040
you have no, you know, these 
people are victims and they're 

901
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,640
sick and we need treatment and 
we need compassion and, you 

902
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,960
know, da, da, da. 
And so those are the entrenched 

903
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:50,800
camps now, you know, it is to 
me, just screamingly obvious 

904
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,840
that the solution such as one, 
you know, first of all, there's 

905
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,840
no like solution there. 
There's like solutions, you 

906
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,280
know, ways to mitigate, try to 
work on the problem lies 

907
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,080
somewhere in the middle. 
You need some law enforcement 

908
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,280
and you need some compassion 
together. 

909
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:12,440
And so they had a program called
lead a law enforcement assisted 

910
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,280
diversion, where they had cops 
and social workers working 

911
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,720
together to help the most 
troubled of these addicts. 

912
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:25,000
And but the thing fell apart 
because the the cops didn't want

913
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,880
to work with, you know, where 
like the social workers are like

914
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,880
you, you know, bleeding hearts, 
you know, don't know that these 

915
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,760
people are just criminals and 
you know why we don't even want 

916
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:35,840
to deal with you. 
And then the social workers 

917
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,360
like, yeah, law enforcement is 
no answer. 

918
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,520
You know, we're you pigs. 
We're not going to work with 

919
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,680
you, you know, and and so they 
wouldn't, they refused to 

920
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,080
cooperate. 
And so the program fell apart. 

921
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,440
So so to me that that is a huge 
failing. 

922
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,240
So is, I mean the book, you 
know, the epilogue is Daniel 

923
00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:57,080
Lurie, the current mayor, but is
mostly focused on pre him. 

924
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,040
Does he just he's solving all 
these problems. 

925
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,880
He's the most popular mayor in 
America. 

926
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,440
So if there's ever going to be 
consensus, will he have it or 

927
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,560
what? 
What is your read so far on his 

928
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:08,800
morality? 
Well. 

929
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:14,800
I think that he has done very 
well precisely on this point. 

930
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:20,200
So he's kind of been able to get
a little bit of a like, hey, we 

931
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,120
actually all kind of agree on 
certain basic things. 

932
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,280
So let's kind of can we just 
kind of do those things for 

933
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,200
starters. 
And that's like, you know, the 

934
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:33,080
encampments, for example. 
So, you know, even now, you 

935
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,120
know, the left and the, a lot of
the social workers, you know, 

936
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,520
feel that the sweeping of 
encampments is, you know, a 

937
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,680
nasty thing to do to the people 
who live there. 

938
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,600
But if you, you know, in the 
city, like people are like, no, 

939
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:50,160
you know, clearly it's not OK if
people live on the sidewalk in 

940
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:55,880
tents, you know, So, you know, 
they've swept the done a lot of 

941
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,600
sweeping the encampments. 
That's been pretty popular for 

942
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,520
the most part. 
And, and I think that they've 

943
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,040
been, you know, at the same time
done some things on the other 

944
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,800
side with more treatment and 
more shelters and not, you know,

945
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:13,600
not been too harshly, you know, 
kind of clamped down about it. 

946
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,280
So, so I think he's done a good 
job with sort of the low hanging

947
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:22,280
fruit, but the big tests are 
still are still to come. 

948
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,480
So he's very popular right now. 
He's got, he's got a very 

949
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:27,040
popular man. 
You know, he's got a good 

950
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:28,800
manner. 
He shows up everywhere, for 

951
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,520
every ribbon cutting. 
He smiles, he tells. 

952
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,720
Everybody, he likes him. 
He's like, like, you miss this 

953
00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:35,760
genial? 
I like the left he likes. 

954
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,160
Everybody, he's very genial, 
he's very consistent in that 

955
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,480
manner. 
So it's hard for people to grab 

956
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,160
on to something to dislike about
him, you know, so, so I think 

957
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,440
he's done a good job. 
You know, it helps him to be a 

958
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,680
billionaire, honestly. 
Like, I, I think that, you know,

959
00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:56,480
Trump somehow isn't fucking with
him very much, maybe because 

960
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,040
he's also a rich guy and Trump 
hasn't, he just has like. 

961
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,160
Totally avoided the ice fight. 
He like, yeah, he's. 

962
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:09,720
Avoided the ice fight you know 
the the the Presidio thing you 

963
00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:12,240
know Trump was making noises 
like he was really going to try 

964
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:15,360
to dismantle the Presidio trust 
and sell off some of that 

965
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,200
property but that that isn't 
happening I mean they just 

966
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,480
appointed the new presidio trust
board with Lynn Benioff on there

967
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,880
and Trevor trainer I mean that 
they're not dismantling anything

968
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,960
so I. 
Wanted to zooming on Wired 

969
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,440
specifically. 
I literally had Katie Drummond, 

970
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,280
the global editorial director on
I think the podcast that will 

971
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,400
run before this one that I've 
already recorded. 

972
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:42,600
You know, recently Trey Stevens 
at Founders Fund joked about 

973
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,840
acquiring it. 
You wrote in Newcomer sort of 

974
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:51,000
about that whole incident and 
Wired is sort of a character in 

975
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,360
the book. 
What is your view on how much 

976
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:54,440
you know? 
I don't know. 

977
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,520
Wired today is betraying the 
founding origins of the 

978
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:02,200
publication and like give give 
us sort of your your gloss on on

979
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,680
the publication's evolution. 
Well, I think that Wired has 

980
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:13,400
evolved in a almost inevitable 
way, you know, back one thing 

981
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,440
that's very important to 
remember in thinking about this 

982
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,920
history is that back in the 90s 
when Wired was created and when 

983
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,720
there was this kind of 
effervescent optimism that I, 

984
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:27,000
that I talk about, you know, the
tech industry was very small. 

985
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:28,840
It was. 
It was an. 

986
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:29,800
Underdog. 
It was an. 

987
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,720
Underdog, yeah, and relative, 
you know, the big industries 

988
00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:37,200
were like oil, you know, and and
banking, like those were the big

989
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,320
industries. 
You know, tech was kind of this 

990
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:44,320
smallish weird dish, you know, 
thing like important, but it's 

991
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:49,320
not like the banks, you know. 
And and so that was it was a 

992
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,920
very different thing. 
And so in those days, you know, 

993
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,960
it was much, yeah. 
It was more of a, of a kind of 

994
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:01,120
an underdog, you know, feeling 
so, so now, you know, you have a

995
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:06,480
tech industry which is like so 
big and so dominant and, you 

996
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,960
know, has control of, you know, 
so many aspects of our lives, 

997
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,760
you know, that it that it's just
by nature is going to shift the 

998
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:19,080
relationship. 
So, so back in the 90s, Wired 

999
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:24,360
was championing the, you know, 
these, these idiosyncratic 

1000
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,080
technologists, you know, people,
you know, thinking outside of 

1001
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,280
the box. 
We're going to remake the world 

1002
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,800
with these new technologies. 
And it's a, you know, it's a 

1003
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:39,160
glorious moment of, you know, 
reinvention led by these kind of

1004
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,520
fascinating idiosyncratic 
freethinkers, right? 

1005
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:50,080
So nowadays, you know, you can't
frame the tech industry that 

1006
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,600
way. 
Like it isn't about that. 

1007
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,920
You know, it's it's like the 
tech industry is not run by if 

1008
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:58,960
your publication. 
Is cheers for underdog 

1009
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,920
freethinkers. 
Those same people would not have

1010
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,240
the same view of the tech 
industry today. 

1011
00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:06,120
Exactly. 
You know, so now the tech 

1012
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,960
industry is not renegade free 
thinkers. 

1013
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,080
The tech industry is like super 
rich billionaires, you know, 

1014
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,200
with enormous power and 
political power and all kinds of

1015
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,560
other stuff. 
So, so you can't like, you know,

1016
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:23,840
Marc Andreessen would have been 
a hero, you know, of Wired in 

1017
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:28,040
1994 or and was, I guess, I 
don't remember exactly, but you 

1018
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,520
know, he would be the type of 
guy who was a hero in 94. 

1019
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:33,800
But nowadays, like, how would 
that guy be? 

1020
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,800
How would he be a hero exactly? 
Like one of the richest guys in 

1021
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,640
the world? 
Like he's not an underdog. 

1022
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:42,520
He's not a renegade. 
He's not, you know, he's just 

1023
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:44,400
like, he's like a rich guy, you 
know? 

1024
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,600
You know, we did the heroic act 
you wanted. 

1025
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,320
We built the great thing like 
and now everybody hates us for 

1026
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:52,760
it, you know, or what do you 
make of that? 

1027
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,200
Like I do Well they. 
Haven't built the great they 

1028
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,080
built the they built, they built
the thing that benefits them, 

1029
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,560
you know, but it, but it, you 
know, they've gotten rich, but 

1030
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:01,880
what's it done for the rest of 
us? 

1031
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,680
You know, and, and so I, I mean,
and I'm not saying that's a I'm 

1032
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,400
being sarcastic in a way. 
You know, there's plenty of 

1033
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,320
answers to that question, but 
they have not articulated those 

1034
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:12,400
answers. 
You know they have. 

1035
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,720
The tech industry leadership is 
not sold to the people. 

1036
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,360
Why? 
You know what they're bringing 

1037
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:20,800
is going to be good. 
Exactly. 

1038
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:22,840
We literally started this 
episode talking about Eric 

1039
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,280
Schmidt talking about AI and 
getting booed. 

1040
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,920
I mean, they're not doing a good
job selling it. 

1041
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,120
I mean, and I think the question
is, you know. 

1042
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,160
And and to go well and to go 
back to Wired because I think 

1043
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:35,440
that I think that's a good 
point. 

1044
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,120
And I don't know how Katie, you 
know, might have responded to 

1045
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:42,720
this, but it is certainly true 
that wired in the early days, 

1046
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:46,920
you know, was celebrated tech 
and wired these days is often 

1047
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,640
very critical. 
Now, to me, that's a that's a 

1048
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:57,520
kind of a natural evolution. 
But if you sort of say, well, is

1049
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:01,000
wired the same thing as it was 
then does it represent the same 

1050
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,280
thing? 
Well, not exactly, no. 

1051
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:05,640
I mean it's. 
Clearly more political. 

1052
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,400
I mean, she didn't embrace 
totally. 

1053
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:10,560
I think she agreed with this 
line of argument somewhat. 

1054
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,800
But I think she is sort of 
casting about for the Renegades 

1055
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:16,760
and sort of people to be cheered
for. 

1056
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,240
I think she sees the critique of
like, oh, we need to work on 

1057
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:25,320
projects that that find sort of 
people we will designate as 

1058
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,600
heroes. 
But obviously she's very proud 

1059
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,160
of and should be proud of 
Wired's work on stuff like Doge 

1060
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:36,600
and sort of failures of Elon's 
renegade boys to find government

1061
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:38,240
waste and just sort of the chaos
they caused. 

1062
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,560
So, I mean, I think she's 
they're, you know, believes 

1063
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,480
they're doing important work, 
but is sort of working also on 

1064
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,320
pieces to find some of the 
optimism. 

1065
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:48,800
Yeah. 
Well, and interestingly, within 

1066
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,680
Wire, there's always been a 
tension between the liberal and 

1067
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:55,000
the libertarian within Wired. 
And so Lewis Rossetto, the 

1068
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:59,560
founder, you know, he was much 
more libertarian and and he 

1069
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:03,880
would actually agree with the, I
fairly sure would agree with the

1070
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:07,360
Trey Stevens critique. 
Like he thinks that Wired, you 

1071
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:11,040
know, Lewis has kind of gone to 
the right and he believes that 

1072
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:15,680
Wired today does not represent 
what you know, what he's 

1073
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,160
celebrated. 
And even Kevin Kelly weighed in 

1074
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,840
on Trey Stevens thing and said, 
oh that would be a very wired 

1075
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:26,640
thing to do to buy wired. 
I mean, I do think, you know, 

1076
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:30,760
I'm, I think fairly sympathetic 
to the tech industry, but if you

1077
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:35,480
look at, you know, Facebook had 
some of these sort of San 

1078
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:38,080
Francisco, it sold the world on 
connecting everybody. 

1079
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,080
And obviously, you know, I do 
think people are connected over 

1080
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,960
Facebook, but I don't know that 
part of the message was, you 

1081
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,840
know, get all your political 
takes from your aunt or 

1082
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:51,240
whatever, you know, and and 
then, you know, the sharing 

1083
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:54,640
economy, which I really lived 
through, I really don't think 

1084
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,960
delivered on the message that 
it's like some guy with a car 

1085
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,920
making a little side money. 
Like mostly drivers there 

1086
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,400
professional. 
It feels like most Airbnbs you 

1087
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:09,440
go to, it is their job. 
And so again, you have the tech 

1088
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:13,120
industry embracing sort of. 
A creative framing, you know, 

1089
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,880
the Airbnb guys are like 
designers, but then once it 

1090
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,520
scales you realize it's sort of 
a nice story on top of what 

1091
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:25,760
feels like a less sort of 
societally mind bending, acid 

1092
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:30,120
tripping business. 
And yet again, we find ourselves

1093
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:33,880
here with AI. 
You know, it, it, it leads to a 

1094
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:35,440
bad path on where things are 
going. 

1095
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,040
But right now we're in the fun. 
You know, you have your clawed 

1096
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,840
bot and you're like doing, I 
don't know, you're hacking 

1097
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:42,680
together websites. 
I don't know what. 

1098
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,960
What do you take from that 
journey we've been on? 

1099
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:47,760
Well. 
You know, we were talking a 

1100
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,400
little bit before about the, you
know, the role of the role of 

1101
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:53,680
capital and venture capital. 
And you know, and I do think 

1102
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:58,120
that in the sharing economy, 
it's kind of an example of where

1103
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:04,200
if you if you're really pushing,
you know, to optimize for for 

1104
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:09,360
profit, like then that takes you
in certain directions that you 

1105
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,040
wouldn't necessarily have to go,
right. 

1106
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:18,080
So in other words, a service 
like Airbnb, like there is a 

1107
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:24,760
thing there that would be what 
it's purported to be, right? 

1108
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:27,920
Like friends, you know, just 
people making a little extra 

1109
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:30,800
money on their room and, you 
know, travelers saving a little 

1110
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:34,480
money and having a more 
personal, you know, natural 

1111
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,120
experience. 
And like, there's a business in 

1112
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,360
doing that. 
It's just not as good a 

1113
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,680
business, not as lucrative a 
business, as the business of 

1114
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,880
like professional operators 
renting apartments and renting 

1115
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:47,720
them out. 
I feel like there's this world, 

1116
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,680
it's not just like the mean 
money sort of forces that are 

1117
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:52,880
doing it. 
Like the left. 

1118
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:54,200
There's certain things in the 
book, right? 

1119
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,640
Like you read like like do drugs
and like talk about it to your, 

1120
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:00,960
you know, it's just like some of
the things that were wild and 

1121
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,280
fun, like the left culture 
wouldn't allow either. 

1122
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:07,480
And like having the, you know, 
Lyft tried to be the more like 

1123
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,080
random guy with a car. 
And in some ways it's like 

1124
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:12,400
that's pretty dangerous. 
And like there's something good 

1125
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:14,600
about a professional and like 
some of the bad Airbnb 

1126
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:17,880
experiences are like, man, the 
host just wants to talk to me 

1127
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:19,120
the whole time. 
And like there, there are 

1128
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,360
certain things where like some 
of the some of those examples 

1129
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,840
are examples where like left 
culture itself doesn't 

1130
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:30,960
necessarily want to sustain the 
wacking weird thing at scale. 

1131
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:34,000
Like you can trust it in sort of
a small experiment, but once 

1132
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:39,520
it's becoming sort of societal 
wide litigious sort of culture 

1133
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:43,280
of of like that, I would put 
more on the left also sort of 

1134
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:45,080
sands that down. 
Like so these things just sort 

1135
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,480
of get sanded down to a version 
that like the markets can 

1136
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,280
sustain and that like you just 
can't scale sort of like wild 

1137
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,480
unhinged relationships. 
Or what do you take of the 

1138
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,080
critique that there are pieces 
of the left that are also sort 

1139
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:01,560
of sanding down? 
Yeah, I would you. 

1140
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,560
Know, I think I think that's I 
think that's fair you know, that

1141
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:10,640
the you know, the left kind of 
you could say generically 

1142
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:14,160
there's sort of a prioritization
of kind of safety, you know, 

1143
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:18,280
which would lead to a kind of 
conservative approach to certain

1144
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,200
things. 
So I think that's AI think 

1145
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:26,400
that's a fair criticism. 
And you know, I would point to, 

1146
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:30,680
I mean, Craigslist, right, So 
that that's something in in the 

1147
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:31,760
book. 
I mean, to the extent they're 

1148
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:34,280
heroes in the book, right, Craig
would be a hero. 

1149
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:36,920
You know Brian, Brian 
Bellendorf, you don't. 

1150
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:38,440
Shame, just keep it out. 
What? 

1151
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:40,080
Well, you're good and don't over
extract. 

1152
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:44,880
But the thing that that I find 
awesome about Craig's story is 

1153
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:49,240
that, you know, he was just 
like, no, like, no, I'm, I'm not

1154
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:53,280
gonna take the money because 
it's not my main. 

1155
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,920
It's not my thing. 
Like I've, I've got enough money

1156
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,040
and I don't need the money. 
And if I take the money, I'm 

1157
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,360
going to have to do a bunch of 
shit that I don't want to do. 

1158
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:03,760
And I'm going to have to make 
the service something that I 

1159
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,240
don't want it to be. 
And so I'm just not going to do 

1160
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:08,480
it. 
And so he didn't do it and he 

1161
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:13,640
kept the thing the way it was. 
And, you know, he gets a lot of 

1162
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:18,040
criticism from for like not 
modernizing the service, but you

1163
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:20,440
know, there's millions and 
millions of people who like it 

1164
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,440
just the way it is. 
And, and his insight actually 

1165
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,200
was that, you know, well, it's 
not really an insight, but he's 

1166
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:28,760
the only one whoever acted on 
it, which is that people don't 

1167
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:32,280
like change, so I'm not going to
change it. 

1168
01:04:33,240 --> 01:04:37,000
And, and Craig, you know, and 
The funny thing is that so 

1169
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:42,000
Craigslist still works. 
It's still the best place to get

1170
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,680
certain things in a lot of 
cities. 

1171
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,080
You know, it depends, but you 
know, it still works. 

1172
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:49,080
It's still basically free. 
And Craig has made like a 

1173
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:52,320
billion dollars. 
Go read City on the Edge. 

1174
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,920
It's amazing. 
We don't read enough these days,

1175
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:56,760
especially in the tech industry.
Go read a book. 

1176
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,400
The amazing thing about reading 
history, and this history in 

1177
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:04,600
particular is, Yeah, you you 
remember that you fall victim to

1178
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:08,880
the wins of your time and that 
there were other times they were

1179
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:10,960
also awesome, where they think 
differently. 

1180
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:14,480
And if you really want to think 
different in the tech industry, 

1181
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,120
you have to sort of be aware of 
history. 

1182
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:19,800
And I think that's one of the 
things, honestly, that was Steve

1183
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:22,600
Jobs was, you know, a liberal 
arts person, someone who really 

1184
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:25,480
had a sense of history. 
And I think one of the failings 

1185
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:29,440
of this current moment in the 
tech industry is just people 

1186
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,480
sort of myopically in their own 
time without that sense of 

1187
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:34,320
history. 
So go read, see On the Edge. 

1188
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:37,760
It is a very readable, enjoyable
book and story. 

1189
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:41,040
And I think you will have a 
sense of perspective that will 

1190
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,040
be gained. 
And so thank you for joining us 

1191
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:46,720
on the show and giving us a 
taste of what is to be found 

1192
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:48,000
inside the book. 
Well. 

1193
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:49,320
Thank you, Eric. 
Thank you very much. 

1194
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:54,920
And if I would just add one last
thing that kind of plays into 

1195
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:56,880
your point here, I think. 
And one thing that I'm very 

1196
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,040
proud of about the book is that 
I think it kind of weaves 

1197
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:03,760
together a story of the rise of 
the industry and the evolution 

1198
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,920
of the politics and the 
evolution of the culture and 

1199
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:11,440
shows how those things really 
interrelate with one another. 

1200
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:14,880
And I hopefully that's a unique 
contribution of the book. 

1201
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:16,680
So great. 
Thank you very much for coming 

1202
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:17,280
on the show. 
All right. 

1203
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:18,600
Thank you. 
That's. 

1204
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:20,640
Our conversation. 
If you want to see more of what 

1205
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,280
Jonathan Weber and I are 
writing, you got to go to 

1206
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:26,120
newcomer.co. 
That's our sub stack here on the

1207
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:28,080
podcast. 
Please like, comment, subscribe,

1208
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:30,880
tell us who you want me to 
interview next. 

1209
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:34,760
And if you're still hankering 
for more tech podcasting, we've 

1210
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:37,360
got a chat show for you. 
That's the Shrubal Valley show 

1211
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,800
with my Shrubal Valley Co host 
Max Child and James Wilsterman. 

1212
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:42,640
Otherwise, I'll see you next 
week. 

1213
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:44,600
This is the newcomer podcast. 
Thanks so much.