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Welcome back on Sally. 
Hey everybody. 

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Welcome to this week's dead cat 
condo town here from Insider 

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joined by Katie Benner of New 
York Times and Eric newcomer of 

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newcomer, we've got this week, 
Alex, Heath from The Verge on to

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talk about the State of the 
Union of social media. 

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He Throat. 
A PC other week about how Zack 

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is cracking down on all the lazy
fat cat, rest investors at 

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Facebook. 
And that piece also came out 

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around the same time that meta 
had it sir. 

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I'm still not good at saying 
meta forces, Facebook meta had 

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its earnings, which were not 
great. 

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You know, of quarterly decline, 
q1q, decline in Revenue. 

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Not a good place to be for 
supposed growth stock. 

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And then also, the bigger story 
was that Instagram was rebuked 

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by its shadow. 
Chief product officer, Kylie 

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Jenner and the whole 
jenner/kardashian crew also not 

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great and the FTC is suing them 
to stop. 

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Its acquisition of a VR company.
So Heath is going to be on to 

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talk about all of that and then 
also because Heath is on and 

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I've just plagued Eric and Katie
anytime I had the opportunity to

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we should talk about snap, which
had like a near-death experience

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as one analyst said, but it had 
shit earnings, its stock is 

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trading near all-time lows. 
So that's That's the mess over 

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there with SNAP. 
But before wild the highs and 

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lows of snap, like it's hard to 
understand how I mean talk about

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sort of a critique of the 
efficient market hypothesis. 

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I don't, I'm interested 
understand how it could be as 

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wild as it's been. 
I don't think snap knows what to

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make of not only like its stock 
price, but itself like all of it

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just seems to be a mystery to 
the company. 

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But before we do that, I want to
shout out the composer of our 

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theme music Young Chomsky Great 
synth music that we have opening

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and closing the show from Young 
chomsky's composer. 

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He's also a co-producer on 
another podcast called true and 

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on and he very generously. 
Let us use one of his pieces for

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a music. 
So I can't let it go without 

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without mention because it's 
been too long. 

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Okay, Heath, thanks for joining,
thanks for having me. 

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Good to be back. 
Thank you. 

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So okay, where should we start 
with all of this? 

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Let's just go high level with 
the with the earnings just 

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because we are in the midst of 
earning season and, you know, It

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has been you know eating shit 
over the last six months, 

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they're down like 50 percent 
nothing that jolts listeners out

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of their seat more than let's 
talk about earnings. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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Okay. 
I mean nothing jolts listeners 

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worth of learning 50% of their. 
It's good, it's good. 

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It's important substance. 
Eat your carrots. 

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Let's understand the business 
with where we just argue about 

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whatever feed should look like. 
Yeah, no, tell me what I should 

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take away from from from zux 
earnings. 

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What should you take away? 
I guess the headline was Had 

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Revenue declined year over year 
for the first time ever. 

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I thought was really interesting
about that was though that they 

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said, if it wouldn't have been 
for currency conversions, and 

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headwinds there, which means you
know the dollar obviously is 

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gotten a lot. 
Stronger relative to other 

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International currencies, they 
would have had a four percent 

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Revenue growth so that like I 
thought that was a pretty 

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interesting call out. 
But yeah, it's it's not doing 

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great there. 
There there. 

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In the during a hard hard period
right now. 

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And this is basically because of
I mean there's still the 

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overhang from Apple's privacy 
changes that limited their 

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targeting ability. 
I mean just the general 

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recession fears when which is 
it, it's still Apple it's mostly

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recession ad budget right now. 
I would say it's like 40% apple 

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on top of that. 
Uh-huh. 

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I think it's hard to parse the 
to out with Facebook in 

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particular and see exactly how 
bad just the The macroeconomic 

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stuff is relative to just the 
Apple stuff. 

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They're actually waiting 
internally for, I think the 

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first year of the full Apple 
worked when we're talking about 

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a, we're talking about the 
prompt on your iPhone. 

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That says, do not track me. 
It cost Facebook, 10 billion 

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dollars last year, which is the 
same amount they spent on the 

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metaverse and they're waiting 
until a year of that has been 

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fully out in the world of that 
prompt being out in the world 

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before they kind of do it. 
Full assessment. 

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So they don't even really know 
internally. 

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How Bad Apple has been relative 
to just what everyone is 

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experiencing Facebook was a 
trillion plus dollar company 

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right now. 
It's worth four hundred thirty 

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point six billion like so was I 
mean what was Zoom? 

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I mean there were so many 
companies that were right, these

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astronomical valuations that. 
Yeah. 

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Everyone's just kind of coming 
back to Earth and I think met is

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no longer. 
It's no longer a gross talk 

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anymore. 
That's really the problem, 

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right? 
Is that They're not growing and 

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they still make a good amount of
profit. 

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So it isn't that your expertise?
You were big on when Apple sort 

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of switch from being a growth 
stock to Value stock? 

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Yeah, I mean I think the 
difference is the apples kind of

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got the market used to the idea 
that it wasn't going to be a 

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growth stock. 
Whereas with Facebook, they 

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continue for reasons that I'm 
sure. 

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Alex knows more vis-à-vis, the 
psychology of the c-suite, the 

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company itself seems to not be 
able to reckon With the fact 

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that it either needs to start 
talking about itself as a stock,

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that's not going to grow, but 
will throw off value because 

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it's Communications company 
because it's as essential, as a 

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telephone company or whatever 
new story would want to tell. 

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And for all these regulatory 
reasons, this story seemed 

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somewhat unappealing, or it has 
to convince the market that is 

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going to get. 
And next huge spread of growth, 

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akin to what happened in the 
switch to mobile and it will be 

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just as powerful and I think 
that's why they're paying so 

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much on the metaverse but I 
don't know. 

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Alex, what do you think, like, 
why do you think the company 

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isn't willing to start? 
Talking about itself in kind of 

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a new, a new way. 
Well, I think they were until 

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about the beginning of this 
year. 

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So I've noticed Zuckerberg kind 
of reorient it back to the 

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present, whereas, for like the 
pandemic. 

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He only wanted to talk about the
future and about the gross stuff

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and the metaverse stuff and the 
Rebrand was done really right 

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before the market went into 
freefall, like it was really at 

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the end of this, like two-year 
bubble. 

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We were in which is just kind of
an interesting was that their 

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Apex, it was like he was able to
evolve into his final form. 

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Has, he was so ahead of its 
powers accent. 

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Yeah, there's like a Cronenberg 
movie kind of like, yeah, I am 

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becoming, I am becoming mad and 
it's like with the stock price. 

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You can track his public 
comments shift into like 

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actually talking about the the 
current business more and 

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talking about actual like soap. 
He didn't want to talk about 

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like social media for two years 
like which is the company's 

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business. 
Like it was all metaverse. 

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All the time he let's take your 
temperature as of proximate for 

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face. 
Facebook. 

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Because last time, we talked to 
you, you were extremely bullish.

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Yeah. 
About metaverse like, uh, are 

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you raining that in tactically 
seen a sort of shift in strategy

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from Facebook, or you're still 
pretty optimistic? 

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I've so boldly flip-flopping? 
No, no, I'm still I think the 

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headsets like what I was saying 
in the last episode are about to

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get really good. 
I think the problem with metal 

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versus that no one gets it and 
no one wants to like think it's 

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potentially going to be 
something. 

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Because like the it sucks right 
now like Quest is like not a 

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great experience. 
It's not something you want to. 

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It takes 20 minutes. 
You think the headsets could be 

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good? 
Facebook could make a lot of 

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money off them in the next 
couple of years. 

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Yeah, I think if the, I think if
the headsets in the interface 

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and the battery, and the 
resolution and just being able 

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to like, actually interact with 
people gets a lot better in 

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these things. 
I do think people will use them,

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I think, I think it will become 
inevitable to a degree for for 

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certain use cases, not for 
everything. 

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I love the way. 
Real world. 

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I just think. 
Yeah, one of them are so 

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metaverse fight I just yeah. 
Curious how much they're going 

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to back away? 
I think this has like moved the 

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goalposts farther out where now 
they're thinking he's being a 

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little more clear saying this 
isn't going to really be a thing

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for us until the end of the 
decade was just like, okay, how 

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long can you acknowledge? 
Why would you do that? 

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Unless, like, what sentence was,
he getting about its Evolution 

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that caused him to push it 
further out? 

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I don't understand. 
Like, there hasn't been that 

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much to change between now, then
and now other Its stock price 

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and like a continuing decline. 
Like why would you suddenly like

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re next time just not being 
ready they keep thinking that 

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Apple's been the same way Apple.
First up, their first headset 

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was going to come out like two 
years ago they all these 

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companies just are suit so over 
optimistic about how fast the 

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tech will progress. 
And Zack has been pretty clear 

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that this is like the hardest 
technical problem that exists 

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right now is like building a 
compelling. 

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Lightweight pair of are glasses.
So yeah they're all night. 

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Can't I get Guess you don't want
to be the guy in, you know, the 

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labs tells us look like, yeah, 
we're not even close, dude. 

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I know a couple of months ago, 
we were kind of telling you that

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it's gonna get pretty close. 
Yeah, we did that. 

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We ran the numbers again, 
resolutions bad. 

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It's not going to be good, man. 
I mean, I kind of feel for them,

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but again, I don't see why this 
was a new revelation. 

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There's an element of this where
because this is Ox baby and his 

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pet project. 
What I've heard is that, you 

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know, it's like and there's been
other reporting on this even at 

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Apple and other companies is 
like the demos They get given to

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these Executives. 
Internally are like there is no 

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other supporters of the paper 
dummies. 

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That was it? 
Yeah. 

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Or they're just like them away 
know people? 

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Yeah, it can be hard to have 
people tell you how it really is

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when you become someone like a 
Mark Zuckerberg or and also when

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you start running the company in
such a way that people are 

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afraid to tell you how. 
I mean that was one of the 

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interesting things about the 
story that you wrote about the 

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all-hands meeting that, you 
know, Zuckerberg used to be far 

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more involved in those meetings.
And Are more willing himself to 

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take harder questions and he's 
sort of like created a world in 

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which he's insulated himself 
from both hard questions and 

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annoying questions. 
And so, how do you tell us, how 

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do you be honest? 
But somebody who's created that 

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structure around themselves. 
Well, it's two sided because I 

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would say, yes, he has insulated
himself as the company gets 

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bigger, but the questions 
themselves have also changed 

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like the in the way that the 
what is on employees mind and 

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that's that's really the main 
reason I wrote this Sorry is 

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like in the last two years, the 
employees have really shifted. 

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It's all about perks and about 
like, are there going to be 

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layoffs? 
And are we gonna have extra 

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vacation days? 
Like the stuff that gets 

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filtered up to him? 
And all hands is not like 

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strategy and like big picture. 
They're activists but for their 

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own quality of life and well I 
think it it just goes to show 

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like we're big Tech is at. 
I think it's the new Wall 

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Street. 
It's the new cushy place where 

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you can go and get paid a lot to
not work that much. 

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And there's this horse from 
Never As Good. 

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Almost. 
Right. 

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And at least wash we pretended 
your came to work super hard. 

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Like they took away their free 
lunches. 

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They totally there but like the 
perks were not that good, right?

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The money was good. 
The money was good. 

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But the perks for the expense 
account Facebook gave you free 

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bike parts and laundry and dry 
cleaning and bus rides, Michael.

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And they told you all the way 
they took it all away for like 

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the promise you could live in 
Chicago, you know, it's all over

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Facebook. 
So I can I read a quick section 

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for beer. 
It really gets to the core of 

227
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,900
it. 
And also, I, your article pissed

228
00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:36,000
me off, not like, the way you 
reported or the writing, but I 

229
00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:38,600
was a little angry about the way
Zach. 

230
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,500
Handled himself throughout all 
of this. 

231
00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:42,900
All right, all right. 
So here's a two graphs. 

232
00:11:43,700 --> 00:11:46,200
This is a question from one of 
the people at the All Hands. 

233
00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:48,000
Hi there. 
The first pre-recorded employee 

234
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,500
question, started. 
I'm Gary, and I'm located in 

235
00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,500
Chicago, his question would met 
a days. 

236
00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:56,900
Extra days off introduced during
the pandemic, continue in 2023 

237
00:11:57,500 --> 00:11:59,900
Zuckerberg appeared visibly, 
Frustrated. 

238
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,100
All right. 
He stammered. 

239
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,300
He just explained that he 
thought the economy was headed 

240
00:12:04,300 --> 00:12:06,200
for one of the worst downturn 
that we've seen in recent 

241
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,400
history. 
He'd already Frozen hiring in 

242
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,500
many areas, Tick-Tock was eating
their lunch and would take over 

243
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,400
a year and a half for they had 
line of sight to overtaking it. 

244
00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:16,800
So this is, like, what said, 
suck up to like his. 

245
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,500
I don't know, like Wolf of Wall 
Street, like tirade against his 

246
00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:22,300
employees, for being lazy. 
Okay. 

247
00:12:22,300 --> 00:12:25,500
Before we get into my opinion 
here, like it's tell me. 

248
00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:27,900
Tell me, it was this the first 
time anyone ever asked Jacques 

249
00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:29,200
about a perk. 
I thought these all They're 

250
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,600
famous for people asking about, 
like why did you take away the 

251
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,100
MMS in like the lunch room that 
we're like, previously stalked, 

252
00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:38,400
you know, 20 years ago? 
Here's what happened. 

253
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,400
So this was, this was an 
incredibly unusual. 

254
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,600
All hands like like a Zuckerberg
doesn't do them all the time 

255
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,300
anymore. 
So whenever he does them, it's 

256
00:12:45,300 --> 00:12:48,200
kind of notable anymore. 
They're usually very scripted. 

257
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,700
Very like he just walks through 
like what they announced 

258
00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:53,700
externally like in the previous 
week and says he's excited about

259
00:12:53,700 --> 00:12:55,200
it. 
It's really like become so 

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00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,700
buttoned up because I mean 
people like me, we could all the

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00:12:57,700 --> 00:13:01,300
time and then Then what happened
this week was he showed up? 

262
00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:04,300
And I really don't think they 
knew he was going to go into the

263
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,100
kind of rant that he went into 
where he spent the first 15. 20 

264
00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:09,400
minutes, basically saying like 
real. 

265
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,200
Yeah, realistically, there's a 
bunch of people who shouldn't be

266
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,400
working here and I'm going to 
make you said that make it sing 

267
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,200
thing, everybody? 
Yeah. 

268
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,400
The quiet part out loud. 
And realistically, I'm going to 

269
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and he was saying, like, look, 
I'm not going to do layoffs 

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00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:24,600
necessarily I'm not going to 
roll them out, but I'm just 

271
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,100
going to make it to where you 
self-select out and that's okay 

272
00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:31,000
with me like, you Gary Even 
worse than just gonna squeeze 

273
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,100
you so hard that you don't want 
to be riding at turn up the 

274
00:13:34,100 --> 00:13:36,100
heat. 
Going to be a lot of dead frogs 

275
00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:37,800
in this, in this pot of water. 
Yeah. 

276
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,600
So so and then I could because I
saw the recording of This and 

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00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,100
like, even like the internal 
comms person who's like the 

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00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:46,700
person who transitions the 
meeting into the different 

279
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:49,900
sections as like visibly. 
Like you could tell, they did 

280
00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:52,900
not know he was going to like go
into this mode, right? 

281
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:56,400
Put the fear of God into him, 
you've got a surprise people and

282
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,700
then they have this pre-recorded
thing teed up. 

283
00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:02,200
These Our highly produced like, 
right, graphics on screen like 

284
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,100
again, how can you be honest 
with anybody at the executive 

285
00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:07,800
level when this is your like 
point of communication with the 

286
00:14:07,808 --> 00:14:08,800
employees? 
Anyway continue? 

287
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,900
Yeah. 
And well, I'm just saying it was

288
00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:14,600
it kind of threw poor Gary under
the bus because you know, it was

289
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,400
pre-recorded, he's a recruit, 
he's a recruiter. 

290
00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:20,400
So he, you know, this is 
actually, we know Gary is real, 

291
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,900
do we know Gary is a real Gary 
is real. 

292
00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:26,200
He was a meme internally. 
There were like poles internally

293
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,200
about like, Gary for CEO. 
They should We fire this guy 

294
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,400
like, you know, and like ever 
exactly Tim Armstrong did white 

295
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,900
one, is it Mary Poppins where 
they take the guy's hat and they

296
00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:40,000
turn it inside out or whatever? 
They were like Shirley Jackson. 

297
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:42,900
Yeah, exactly, exactly. 
Now, there is like, just a 

298
00:14:42,908 --> 00:14:46,400
cinder somewhere like in, you 
know, North River Chicago. 

299
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,300
Where Gary used to be? 
Because it's like trying to pull

300
00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:51,700
his like Darth Vader Force like 
maneuver on him. 

301
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,500
Yeah. 
And then he asks about he has 

302
00:14:53,500 --> 00:14:56,400
this pre-recorded thing about 
the vacation days and stock is 

303
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,800
just like flabbergasted that. 
Hey, this This was asked but be 

304
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,100
that his team probably had this 
cute up and didn't like adjust 

305
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:05,800
on the Fly. 
He wants just to be clear. 

306
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,300
The employee wants to have like 
the extra vacation days they got

307
00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:12,200
because of the pandemic being 
terrible RuPaul so they weren't 

308
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,100
they worked in Gary worked in 
recruiting. 

309
00:15:14,100 --> 00:15:17,400
So so it was like he's selling 
like talk to people about, 

310
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,000
right? 
This is like the Practical 

311
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,400
question, it's not just 
self-oriented. 

312
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,000
I see. 
It's like, oh yeah, so what 

313
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,000
should I tell very unfortunate 
timing and then suck is like, 

314
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,800
you know, based on my tone you 
can see how I'll probably 

315
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,200
Respond to this and then he 
proceeds to say that meta days 

316
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:32,200
are cancelled. 
Right? 

317
00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:36,800
Wow. 
And he's welcome to hell, you 

318
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,700
know, tell them is not going to 
be a good place to work anymore.

319
00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:43,400
Like keep in mind like just last
year. 

320
00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:46,800
You know, Facebook's HR team 
produced a video similar to the 

321
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,400
Virgin America video about. 
You know, like fááá is flight 

322
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:50,900
preparedness. 
All about their health care 

323
00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:54,400
plans where they did like wraps 
and songs about like, how their 

324
00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,300
health care plan was changing. 
So yeah, the pendulum is fucking

325
00:15:57,300 --> 00:16:00,700
swung lady widest point. 
Certainly of all this is that 

326
00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:04,300
this meeting ended with a video 
of an executive surfing, so like

327
00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:07,300
he goes on this and it was it 
was pre-recorded and it was 

328
00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:10,300
already like set up but he does 
this like huge you know talk 

329
00:16:10,300 --> 00:16:13,800
about we got to buckle up for 
intense times and then they they

330
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,500
throw to this video of an 
executive which is that can. 

331
00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:19,900
Why how long was it like two 
hours long you have to why? 

332
00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:24,000
Like I know everyone is just 
strapped to their chair was like

333
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,300
a mini videos, like just it was 
like an exact profile but like 

334
00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:30,700
following her surfing, Amazing. 
That's so good. 

335
00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:33,100
Gary, you don't get any more 
fucking time off. 

336
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,500
All right, well, I'm like the 
antenna days is Lancel. 

337
00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:40,400
Here's my airport. 
I'll give him mine. 

338
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,400
Zuckerberg is working from 
Hawaii to like how Shaggy yeah 

339
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,200
like employees. 
Want like a meta day so they can

340
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,800
leave their like one bedroom 
apartments in Chicago and go sit

341
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,300
by the lake for 20 minutes but 
suck is like working from his 

342
00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:55,700
Lanai. 
Oh well that's yeah that's the 

343
00:16:55,700 --> 00:17:00,200
duality of this is like there's 
a shit Posting group inside 

344
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,600
Facebook internally called 
shitposting at meta. 

345
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,400
And they're literally, there are
memes of like Zuckerberg, you 

346
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,900
know, hydrofoil along with the 
American flag and people being 

347
00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:12,200
like, look at this coaster and 
brutal. 

348
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,000
See ya. 
Cuz there was a note that went 

349
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,000
out that really pissed. 
People off after that, where 

350
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,500
this executive at the company. 
This engineering executive, he 

351
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:23,900
posted it in a manager's only 
group and it was like identify 

352
00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:27,000
coasters. 
Put them in a list by 5 p.m. 

353
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,800
Monday. 
We can't have like Ours at meta,

354
00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:32,600
very blunt. 
Very like, not how you should, 

355
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,300
you know, communicate something 
like this in written form and it

356
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:37,500
leaks someone in the managers 
group leaked it on. 

357
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,100
Oh my why? 
I think it leaked to the 

358
00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:41,700
information, love it. 
People are very unhappy at this 

359
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:43,900
company. 
Executive later is like it was a

360
00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:50,800
draft. 
I didn't mean to publish it as 

361
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,000
yet voters, Fat Cats, well, 
meme. 

362
00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:56,700
This becomes a mean and 
thoroughly. 

363
00:17:56,900 --> 00:18:00,000
And, and there's like, you know,
Because there's this new mantra 

364
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,000
inside the company called Meta, 
Meta mates. 

365
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,500
Me, it's this new, like, what 
would you value called? 

366
00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:10,000
Is this what, man? 
It's like, primates or meta 

367
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,100
mates, like, like meta mates? 
Like like em, you know, how 

368
00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:15,300
bundlers Google employees? 
Our googlers. 

369
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:17,400
Yeah, if you work at metal, 
you're a meta mate. 

370
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,300
And then of me, this is what 
that's really, what everyone 

371
00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:23,400
like this was after the Rebrand 
he did this big company value 

372
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,400
reset. 
I didn't screw Thread about it. 

373
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,300
And it was, it was absolute was 
absurd because like, you know, 

374
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:30,300
they had moved Ask that other 
company values. 

375
00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:32,200
He's like we're going to go 
through and change some of these

376
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,100
and a new one was Meta Meta 
mates me so it's like about it's

377
00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:38,600
meant to be like like we're all 
in it together. 

378
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,300
I guess is the vibe of the 
Mantra but now people were doing

379
00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:46,100
coasters coasters meet coasters.
Posting me I'm making like 

380
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,500
coasters like mock-ups of actual
coasters. 

381
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,000
Right. 
And that's what I was going to 

382
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,500
say. 
If I were selling anything, it 

383
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:52,500
would be coasters. 
Coasters. 

384
00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:54,000
Yeah. 
So yeah, there's just, there's 

385
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,500
still a very strong even with 
all the Crackdown they've done 

386
00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:58,700
internally on like can employee 
communication. 

387
00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:00,000
I was very pleased and 
Reporting. 

388
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,800
This story to see that there's 
still a strong shitposting 

389
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,900
Community. 
I am amazed, how much open 

390
00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:07,200
descent. 
There is like Bloomberg never 

391
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,900
had, like, employees me mean 
about, like how terrible, the, I

392
00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:14,500
mean, and I, there's no way 
babe, it is when, when Mike, 

393
00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:18,000
when Mike was mayor of New York 
City though and he was album 

394
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,900
veto, right? 
A lot was going on in The 

395
00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:26,600
Flipper, Jeffrey mayor. 
And the public was an employee 

396
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,300
at Facebook. 
Another stat in Story. 

397
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:33,400
Is that 42 percent of employees 
have confidence in leadership. 

398
00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:35,600
So this was an employee survey 
that went out right God. 

399
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,100
No wonder, you're getting people
leaky. 

400
00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:39,100
You so much shit. 
They fucking hate this, man. 

401
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,100
And they never, they never 
understand. 

402
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,800
This is the best company in the 
world to cover right now. 

403
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,100
They never understanding stuff. 
I mean, even like, when we were 

404
00:19:46,108 --> 00:19:48,600
talking to a meal last week and 
he was talking about, like, 

405
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,700
there were so many leaks 
happening at Uber at the time 

406
00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:52,600
and it's like, yeah, dude, 
that's what happens. 

407
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,700
When people are really unhappy 
at your company, right? 

408
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,500
These leaks track to the stock 
price more than anything. 

409
00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:00,700
I mean, Absolutely. 
We've all we've all experienced 

410
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:02,700
this, like, in common. 
These companies when the stock 

411
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:05,500
is down because peep for people 
who don't work in Tech, which 

412
00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:06,900
I'm sure is like no one 
listening to this. 

413
00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:11,400
Show why job and tanker I can 
hang up the podcast right now. 

414
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,200
Yeah, you get compensated 
heavily based on the stock price

415
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,800
and you know, people are 
looking. 

416
00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:19,800
They hired an entire company's 
worth of people like they 

417
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,400
started. 
They went into the pandemic with

418
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,600
40-ish thousand, they hired that
amount in about 2 years. 

419
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,200
So they like more than doubled 
and they were all working in 

420
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,900
this remote environment when the
stock is All-time highs. 

421
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,300
And now they're seeing their 
compensation cut by like more 

422
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:37,700
than 50% and they have no 
confidence or low confidence 

423
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:40,500
record, low confidence and 
Leadership so it's just a bad 

424
00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:43,400
combination of like Duck saying,
you're all a bunch of like 

425
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,400
grifters. 
And then everyone's saying, hey,

426
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,500
we don't really like you either.
So it's really interesting that 

427
00:20:48,508 --> 00:20:52,400
you say this because like this 
is a little bit of a reap what 

428
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,900
you sow situation to like I 
remember in 2010 basically all 

429
00:20:56,900 --> 00:21:00,400
of corporate America tried to 
Recreate, the, the sort of like 

430
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,600
Tech Perk Tech lifestyle 
phenomenon, because it's having 

431
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,900
so much trouble recruiting 
people out of college, because 

432
00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:08,100
they were like, when we give 
them less, we give people 

433
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:13,100
literally free shit, like hand 
over fist, and give them free 

434
00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:16,300
food and free, espresso bars and
all this complete bullshit. 

435
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:20,800
We will never hire anybody out 
of a top 50 school again and the

436
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,100
tech industry to a company. 
But especially at Facebook, they

437
00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:27,000
just talked about how great this
was in terms of, you know, 

438
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,600
getting the best work out of 
people. 

439
00:21:28,900 --> 00:21:31,800
They were never willing to 
concede, it was just going to 

440
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,600
create an incredibly entitled 
Workforce. 

441
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,800
And so it's kind of and there's 
something very poetic but saying

442
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,600
that incredibly title entitled 
Workforce come and bite Facebook

443
00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:44,600
in the ass. 
Like you're just like, you know 

444
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,300
what, you made this monster, 
right? 

445
00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:49,000
If me if you want us to work for
something other than free. 

446
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,300
Shit, good luck, you created, 
the culture of Brooklyn for free

447
00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:55,000
shipping and and let's also talk
about what's going on here. 

448
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,300
Which was that during the 
pandemic, the momentum swung. 

449
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,500
Sharply towards employees 
because there was, you know, 

450
00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:05,300
difficulty in hiring and 
recruiting and attrition and all

451
00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:07,300
the issues that these companies 
were facing. 

452
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,200
Suddenly they had a huge amount 
of Leverage because you could 

453
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,900
work for a huge number of 
companies wherever you were 

454
00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:15,200
living and, you know, yeah, 
companies. 

455
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,800
Wherever you're living in the 
country and this couldn't stand 

456
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,300
this, you know, this aggression 
could not stand when it came to,

457
00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:24,900
you know, the executives. 
And so I think they see the 

458
00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:27,900
recession as the ability to do 
like a little bit of a reset on 

459
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:30,300
their part and say, You know 
that meta mates, or sorry, you 

460
00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:33,100
know, the metadata things that 
we rolled out and your ability 

461
00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:35,900
to live in fucking Chicago, Gary
that whole thing. 

462
00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:37,400
Yeah, we're not doing that 
anymore. 

463
00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:39,800
And the reason is that, it's 
your fault and and this is what 

464
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,300
pissed me off about about suck 
single. 

465
00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:44,100
You kind of jump me to it is 
that the employees are unhappy 

466
00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:46,900
too. 
And how much is suck himself 

467
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,200
taking responsibility for the 
fact that he only has 41 percent

468
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,300
approval ratings within his gun.
Salute, 42, I'm sorry. 

469
00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:55,500
Yeah, it's important to be exact
here Tom. 

470
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:56,700
No. 
Oh yeah. 

471
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:58,600
That one percent is not a 
coaster. 

472
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,000
Sure, sure it's a good question.
I don't know the answer. 

473
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,800
I don't know what's inside his 
mind. 

474
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,800
I think he does think they hired
they over hired and they hired a

475
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,600
lot of he needs missionaries 
right now and they hired a lot 

476
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,500
of non missionaries and I think 
that's how I seize it. 

477
00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:16,900
And, you know, when you used to 
be able to just go to Google or 

478
00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:20,600
vice versa for an extra 20, 30 
percent pay bump like with no 

479
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,000
effort, which was the reality of
life for these Tech workers for 

480
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,700
the last few years, especially 
it was, you had to hire like, 

481
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,600
Had to lower your bar a little 
bit because like people have a 

482
00:23:31,608 --> 00:23:33,900
lot of options and now people 
don't have as many options. 

483
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:36,800
Google's not hiring, you know, 
their competitors aren't hiring 

484
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,100
either. 
So the it's you're right, the 

485
00:23:39,100 --> 00:23:43,500
pendulum is swinging back to the
management and not the employees

486
00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:46,100
and I think that's what this 
meeting really represented. 

487
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,800
And this duck is unique in that 
he's the you know, God king of 

488
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,900
Facebook and can say whatever he
wants. 

489
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:54,700
And say the quiet part out loud 
and is not really like I think a

490
00:23:54,708 --> 00:23:57,200
lot of these CEOs are probably 
thinking similar thoughts, but 

491
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,900
they for whatever Other reasons,
you know, there may be like 

492
00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:03,600
negotiating their next comp 
package with their board or 

493
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,800
whatever, they feel like they 
can't, you know, tussle the, you

494
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,700
know, tells all things up too 
much, but Zuckerberg doesn't 

495
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:11,400
really care. 
I mean, he can, he can do 

496
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:12,500
whatever he wants at the 
company. 

497
00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:15,500
So I think he was just ready to 
just say the quiet part out 

498
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:18,500
loud, but he's also not an 
inspirational guy. 

499
00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:21,800
I mean, I think he's also kind 
of uniquely week in this period 

500
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,100
because he's not the guy that 
can go out there and give like 

501
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:27,200
the Don Draper speech and 
everybody, rallied to work on 

502
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,100
weekends and shit, right? 
He's the uh, Weird person who I 

503
00:24:30,108 --> 00:24:32,200
don't know what his face looked 
like when he was angry, but I'm 

504
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,300
sure, you know, it wasn't red. 
Very red maybe. 

505
00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:38,000
Yeah, we got red mark. 
He was better than everybody 

506
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,700
else has been wrong. 
I mean, that's the thing. 

507
00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:43,000
Yeah, always had he didn't get 
cycle, privacy, but never told 

508
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,500
me. 
I was an idiot when we did this.

509
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:47,200
I mean, it's sort of 
transitioning to our next topic.

510
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,000
I mean, like nobody thought 
feet, like users didn't like 

511
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,400
feed, you know, it's sort of 
like, and that's clear is 

512
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,500
coming. 
I can't think of one, I can 

513
00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:57,300
think of not one CEO. 
Who's always been right? 

514
00:24:57,300 --> 00:24:58,800
Yeah. 
And you can argue that The 

515
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,600
problems is consistently always 
right problems there in right 

516
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,800
now, is because they didn't get 
a couple key things. 

517
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:04,900
Right? 
Which Tom you mentioned, they 

518
00:25:04,908 --> 00:25:07,100
didn't see the Apple changes, 
hurting them as badly as they 

519
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:09,200
did. 
They had plenty of opportunity 

520
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,400
to see that they were kind of 
like in denial for a while and 

521
00:25:12,408 --> 00:25:15,000
they also didn't see the tick 
tock threat, right until it was 

522
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,200
arguably too late. 
So yeah, he does see around 

523
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,700
corners and certain key moments,
but I think they're in the 

524
00:25:19,708 --> 00:25:22,200
position, they're in right now 
because for whatever reason, 

525
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,100
maybe because he's really a 
dog's back from Hawaii. 

526
00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:28,500
This is the new rallying Cry. 
He's asleep at the wheel. 

527
00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:31,500
Come back as like a bird in 
California. 

528
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,300
I think it's no I think it's a 
matter of focus. 

529
00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:34,900
He's definitely not asleep at 
the wheel. 

530
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:37,900
Like he's been super dialed in 
based on everything I hear to 

531
00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:40,300
like a kind of like stressful 
degree for people who are 

532
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:43,300
working on projects, he's 
interested in but the problem 

533
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:45,500
is, is like the projects. 
He's been interested in are not 

534
00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,200
making the company money and 
they're not they're not going to

535
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,200
save it from the current 
environment that they're in. 

536
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,000
It's all like very few cleaning 
stuff, which is why I find it, 

537
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,100
really frustrating for him to be
chastising coaster fat, cat 

538
00:25:57,100 --> 00:25:58,600
employees for not pulling their 
weight. 

539
00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:01,500
Wait when you know he missed the
Apple privacy changes. 

540
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:04,400
He didn't anticipate Tick-Tock 
the Instagram thing was a 

541
00:26:04,408 --> 00:26:06,700
fiasco, what? 
You got to one second and he's 

542
00:26:06,700 --> 00:26:08,900
trying to get people inspired 
about this completely vague 

543
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:11,200
metaverse thing that it's not 
clear anyone really wants. 

544
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,300
So I just I find it. 
It's a little Rich for me suck. 

545
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,200
It's a little Rich for me so I 
am taking your buyout offer. 

546
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,600
I'm not saying it's Tom's out, 
I'm gone. 

547
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,400
I'm gone. 
You could, you could see me 

548
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,200
walking along Michigan Avenue 
right now. 

549
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,300
Me and Gary, just hand in hand. 
But you didn't heck talking 

550
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:33,600
about meta days the metadata. 
If you're okay talking, let's 

551
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,500
talk about Instagram because 
that was a really funny story. 

552
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,300
Why don't you actually lay out 
what happened? 

553
00:26:39,700 --> 00:26:41,800
Because I was actually out all 
of last week so it really was 

554
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,300
just the bits and few times that
I sadly turned on Twitter. 

555
00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:46,600
So I need about him. 
Yeah, tell ya. 

556
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:50,000
Instagram has been testing this 
redesign that looks and works 

557
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,500
like Tick-Tock and people are 
starting to get the get in the 

558
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:54,500
ABC group. 
You know? 

559
00:26:54,500 --> 00:26:57,200
For the test, they were planning
to originally make it available 

560
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,700
for everyone in October. 
It's Fullscreen, right? 

561
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:01,700
Isn't that? 
I have full screen swipeable 

562
00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:06,100
video, you know, and just a huge
departure, the whole not just 

563
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:09,800
real correct and people 
obviously didn't like it. 

564
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,100
And the other reason beyond the 
interface is that part of this 

565
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,200
redesign is a lot of what 
Facebook calls unconnected 

566
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,500
content, which is just content, 
that's not from people, you 

567
00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:21,000
follow. 
So a lot of that is getting put 

568
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,200
in which is also Tick Tock, 
right? 

569
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,600
That's Tick-Tock you know, 
tick-tocks for you page is like 

570
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,900
you know hardly what you follow.
If at all Kylie Jenner who you 

571
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:31,900
know, Leveled snap with a Tweet 
back in the day. 

572
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,600
Tom and I remember this, well, 
when she hated the snap 

573
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,600
redesign, she wiped like over a 
billion off their market cap. 

574
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,700
She came out and said was 
writing analyst having to put 

575
00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:42,900
out notes following the Kylie 
Jenner announcement. 

576
00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:45,100
Yeah, she was like, bring back 
the old Instagram, you know, it 

577
00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:47,900
became this like me and there 
was a there was a, like a 

578
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,600
petition, you know, all it 
reminded me of the snap redesign

579
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,800
blowback which didn't didn't she
say something about it being for

580
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,000
family or something, which she's
talking. 

581
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,500
I want to see photos from my 
friend. 

582
00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:01,000
Which is like shit, like, come 
on. 

583
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,200
Really like that. 
Was you? 

584
00:28:02,900 --> 00:28:05,300
I think she's the second most 
followed Instagram right now. 

585
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:07,400
She has like, over 300 million 
followers. 

586
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,600
Come on II, don't like. 
So, dumb brands are our friends,

587
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,700
Eric, you as a millennial should
know this. 

588
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,500
I mean, if you're a celebrity, I
understand you built a lot of 

589
00:28:15,500 --> 00:28:18,400
time and money into getting a 
huge follower base of people to 

590
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,400
see your stuff. 
And all of a sudden, the company

591
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,900
is deciding that they want to 
show people other things. 

592
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,400
And that's going to hurt your 
reach. 

593
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,600
So I can see why celebrities 
would be mad about this. 

594
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,700
But she Add and then what was 
happening simultaneously is 

595
00:28:30,708 --> 00:28:32,800
internally. 
This test was just performing 

596
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,900
horribly, it was just tanking 
engagement metrics ad revenue 

597
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,000
and so they paused it and Adam 
moceri. 

598
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,000
The head of Instagram did an 
interview with Casey Newton on 

599
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,700
his wonderful newsletter. 
Platformer and was like, we are,

600
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,500
you know, the test of not been 
good and we are going to 

601
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:52,900
re-evaluate this and what's not 
changing as the unconnected 

602
00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:54,400
content part. 
So you're still going to be 

603
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,500
seeing a lot more posts from 
people. 

604
00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:58,600
You don't follow and Instagram 
and Facebook. 

605
00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:01,700
Look, but the redesign that 
makes it look and work like Tick

606
00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:04,400
Tock with swipeable video, 
that's that's been put on ice. 

607
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:08,600
So he made your L major. 
It sucker Berg posted a photo of

608
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,300
himself with weekend on the 
lake. 

609
00:29:11,700 --> 00:29:13,400
I just think it's odd on 
Instagram. 

610
00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:16,100
That Zack is posting a photo. 
Isn't he supposed to be posting 

611
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:19,200
videos right now? 
Oh my God. 

612
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:27,300
What a fucking coaster? 
Yeah I mean I don't care. 

613
00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:31,500
I say a couple things on this. 
Go, please, you know, stories, 

614
00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:36,600
have shifted everyone to stories
away from sort of the permanent 

615
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,700
photos and I get that. 
Facebook is a company that rides

616
00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:44,000
different Trends and they see 
people having sort of better, 

617
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,900
internet connections, and better
phones with the capacity to 

618
00:29:46,900 --> 00:29:49,200
record video. 
And so they're like, okay, we 

619
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,400
need to have video everywhere. 
But as a consumer part of what I

620
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,700
like about the history of 
Instagram is just that the feed 

621
00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:00,500
of photos is. 
Very like clean and high-end and

622
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:03,800
part of the reason people are 
posting less is because there 

623
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,600
are so thoughtful about the 
quality of photos that they put 

624
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,400
in the feet versus the stories, 
write stories are for sort of 

625
00:30:11,408 --> 00:30:14,700
quickfire and feed is for highly
curated content. 

626
00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:17,500
And so then, that's what you're 
incentivizing people to create 

627
00:30:17,500 --> 00:30:20,700
and then they're mixing that 
feed with absolute garbage. 

628
00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:22,800
And to me, that's part of the 
issue here. 

629
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,600
It's like, yes people are 
engaging with the core of 

630
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,200
Instagram less, but that's 
because they wanted to Be really

631
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,800
premium and you're taking this 
Premium app and just like 

632
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,900
filling it with a bunch of 
random shit. 

633
00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:36,800
Do you think that's a fair 
articulation? 

634
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,600
Well what sort of going on here?
I think you're getting at it. 

635
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,400
I think what's really happening 
here? 

636
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,600
Is that the grand experiment of 
organizing human communication 

637
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,700
at scale around the feed has not
worked. 

638
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,000
It hasn't worked on for rocket 
and it hasn't worked on 

639
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,100
Instagram. 
And what they've observed is 

640
00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:58,300
that posting into feed whether 
it's Instagram or Facebook has 

641
00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:00,900
just been on the decline for a 
long time. 

642
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,400
So what they have is an 
inventory problem. 

643
00:31:03,700 --> 00:31:06,900
So when when your follower list 
is no longer posting in the 

644
00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:10,000
feed, which matters because feed
is how they make the most money,

645
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,400
so they need to feed to have 
good content in it. 

646
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,000
Well, guess what, when your 
friends are no longer posting in

647
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,700
there, they need to show you 
something. 

648
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,400
So they're going to try to 
figure it out. 

649
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:22,900
The problem is that they're way 
behind on a, i that makes that 

650
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:26,400
something interesting. 
Whereas Tick-Tock has shown them

651
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,500
that like, oh my God, this is so
good. 

652
00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:32,200
Yeah. 
But at it and because Facebook 

653
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,300
invented, the idea of ranking 
based on, you know, your 

654
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:38,000
follower list, this was the 
original news feed Insight that 

655
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,100
Twitter and everyone else has 
since copied Tick-Tock took that

656
00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:44,200
idea step further and said we 
don't even need to know like who

657
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,000
you're following? 
Your dog is amazing. 

658
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,800
I feel like you aren't on it. 
Do not understand how good it 

659
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:49,800
is. 
It's serving you. 

660
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,000
What? 
So Facebook is internally meta 

661
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,200
is reorganizing around this new,
a I push and it's next to the 

662
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,500
metaverse, the most, you know, 
the highwomen. 

663
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,100
Highest like priority. 
Most money being spent is on how

664
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:06,900
to build AI that no longer 
relies on who you follow but 

665
00:32:06,900 --> 00:32:10,500
this is an extremely naive thing
to say and I know sort of the 

666
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:13,800
answer but as a user, why can't 
you build a new tic toc 

667
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,800
Facebook? 
Why do you need to cannibalize 

668
00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:18,000
the app we liked if it's slowly 
dies. 

669
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,300
Don't worry about us. 
You have stopped. 

670
00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:21,300
You remember last? 
So Eric do you remember? 

671
00:32:21,300 --> 00:32:23,800
I know it doesn't work. 
That's the answer our paper. 

672
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,300
They were paper. 
They're basically going to 

673
00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:28,500
murder the thing we like when 
also they can't acquire a new 

674
00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:32,600
App either exactly. 
They just tried that and it 

675
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,500
didn't work and was even a nap. 
Yeah, they can't acquire and 

676
00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:39,400
they need to put it where the 
user activity is, you know, this

677
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,600
is if they're good. 
The problem is it's like people 

678
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,200
are leaving the app, they're not
engaging the most with it 

679
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,000
because of tick-tock and they 
need to bring Instagram. 

680
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,500
The problem with all, this is 
like, they've lost the identity 

681
00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:53,300
of what these apps were, right? 
Instagram is about 

682
00:32:53,300 --> 00:32:55,600
entertainment. 
They when they tout the video, I

683
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,100
find it so fascinating when 
they're bragging about like 

684
00:32:58,100 --> 00:33:00,200
video. 
Metrics on Facebook and 

685
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,500
Instagram like over 50% or 
something of time spent in 

686
00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:07,800
Facebook is just watching video 
which is just not what Facebook 

687
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,500
was originally about. 
A Facebook was an active, 

688
00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:14,300
participatory thing and 
Instagram was also that I mean 

689
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:16,700
there was definitely an element 
of like passive lean back with 

690
00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:18,300
Instagram. 
Obviously, there always has 

691
00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:20,600
been, but they've lost the 
participant. 

692
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:24,800
Yeah, the participatory element 
of this and it's because all 

693
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,500
this behavior is shifting into 
private groups chat. 

694
00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:31,400
DMS more content is shared into 
GM's and a shared. 

695
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,000
In this story's more content is 
started shared into stories that

696
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,500
are shared in to feed. 
So it's kind of like, finding 

697
00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:39,600
Jim hierarchy. 
So everything is funneling. 

698
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,300
Yeah. 
So everything is funneling down 

699
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:46,500
into DM's and it's because I 
think they've, they've created 

700
00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:49,900
an environment in the feed that 
is just not conducive to like, 

701
00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,900
human communication, which was 
there a grand experiment for the

702
00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:56,500
last 12 years and it worked 
briefly for a moment in time. 

703
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,500
And then I don't know, I'm Do 
you guys know have you guys 

704
00:33:59,500 --> 00:34:01,700
heard of this idea called 
context collapse? 

705
00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:05,100
This ring a bell for anyone? 
Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's 

706
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:08,900
this idea in social networks 
where you let the graph, which 

707
00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:12,400
is your follower list, just 
expand and expand and expand and

708
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,699
you lose a sense of who you're 
talking to anymore, because the 

709
00:34:15,699 --> 00:34:18,000
purpose of the app has just 
become too vague. 

710
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,400
There's too many people on it. 
These apps tend to Decay when 

711
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,900
they lose their original like 
framework of what their what 

712
00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:28,100
they are for people. 
And so be real I think is taking

713
00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:30,100
off, right? 
Because be real has identified 

714
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:33,800
that the close friend graph, 
which is what Facebook used to 

715
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,500
be in its earliest days. 
What? 

716
00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:37,500
Instagram was also in its 
earliest days. 

717
00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:40,199
No one's doing that anymore. 
Everyone has let their lists 

718
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:43,000
expand and expand and expand and
people don't know who to talk to

719
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:44,600
anymore. 
They don't feel comfortable 

720
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,400
posting because if you have 
hundreds and hundreds of 

721
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,400
followers, you're not going to 
post your what you would post on

722
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,900
be real. 
And you're also not going to do 

723
00:34:50,900 --> 00:34:52,900
the highly curated thing, maybe 
even anymore. 

724
00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:56,500
And this is so ironic because if
you guys remember the last major

725
00:34:56,500 --> 00:35:00,100
ranking change that Did was 
called meaningful social 

726
00:35:00,100 --> 00:35:02,000
interactions. 
This is actually a thing that 

727
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,000
Francis Haugen called out in the
all the leaks documents it was a

728
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,900
big deal in 2018 and what they 
were trying to do is there was a

729
00:35:08,908 --> 00:35:11,800
bunch of passive shallow 
engagement happening because 

730
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,500
they were optimizing for time 
spent. 

731
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:15,900
So people were just watching 
dumb videos that's what was 

732
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:18,400
getting up. 
Voted the most in the feed they 

733
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:19,900
were like we're going to 
reorient it around. 

734
00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:22,400
Two things that your followers 
comment on. 

735
00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:25,000
So what do they do? 
They created this like flame War

736
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,700
environment, right? 
Where the and you know I've 

737
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:30,700
talked to But the company who 
admit that this ranking change 

738
00:35:30,700 --> 00:35:33,400
caused a lot of unintended 
consequences where they're 

739
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,600
actually trying to solve for an 
Integrity problem, which is that

740
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,200
like the engagement was super 
shallow, people weren't having 

741
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,500
meaningful experiences in the 
feed and in doing. 

742
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:43,400
So they actually just 
hyper-charged the emotions of 

743
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,000
everyone because they're 
optimizing for comments and 

744
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,500
reshares from from your friends.
And guess what, what guess and 

745
00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:51,000
we see this in Twitter and 
retweets what gets the most 

746
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,600
engagement at stuff that's 
either going to piss you off or 

747
00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:56,000
you know, like that kind of 
stuff. 

748
00:35:56,300 --> 00:35:58,300
And so now they're just like 
screw it. 

749
00:35:58,500 --> 00:36:01,700
Uh, kit like the feed is now 
just going to be like videos. 

750
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,800
Yeah, I think what's so ironic 
and hilarious about this 

751
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,300
argument is that it is being, 
you know, the argument against 

752
00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:11,200
Instagrams redesign is being 
made by the person who is 

753
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,000
responsible for Content 
collapse. 

754
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,700
Because Kylie Jenner and that 
whole group of influencers, turn

755
00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:18,300
the app from something that 
could have been. 

756
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:21,400
These are my vacation photos, 
you know, some kind of iteration

757
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,300
of the thing that be real is 
going after into we are all 

758
00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:28,400
celebrity at Hawkers that are 
trying to make a business of 

759
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,700
Cells because our lives are so 
interesting but we should it's 

760
00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:33,300
not their fault. 
This is the company. 

761
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:36,400
I just did an episode a podcast 
episode about the history of 

762
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,200
Instagram and kind of how they 
woud, celebrities onto the 

763
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,300
platform. 
The country had teams of 

764
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:43,800
Executives today, specifically 
just went and trained 

765
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,900
celebrities. 
Yes, and attracted them. 

766
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:48,300
We interviewed the executive who
ran this program, it was a 

767
00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:52,100
concerted like intentional 
effort to get celebrities 

768
00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:54,600
posting on the platform. 
It wasn't how the app just 

769
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,400
organically happened. 
They literally had to go 

770
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:02,000
convince the Uber and the 
supermodels to like post and it 

771
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,800
was, it was super intense oils. 
Yeah. 

772
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,100
So like I think it's the fault 
is not of users. 

773
00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:10,200
It's the company is the one who 
decides how these networks 

774
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,200
works, and how they want the 
context to continue in the 

775
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,600
network. 
And if they want to expand it, 

776
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,300
or if they want to shorten it. 
And and that's that's been the 

777
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:19,900
problem is that like Facebook 
and its quest for engagement and

778
00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:23,300
revenue as just widen and widen 
and widen the aperture of what 

779
00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:26,500
Instagram is to where it's now 
this weird shopping mall Meats, 

780
00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:30,700
like video meets. 
Times meet stories and now no 

781
00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:33,500
one knows what it's for anymore.
That's, that's super interesting

782
00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:36,800
because now, like, I feel like 
the mood on my Tick Tock is very

783
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,100
much like, celebrities aren't 
like, you and me, like, it's 

784
00:37:40,100 --> 00:37:42,800
almost a cuz the people can get 
famous on Tick. 

785
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,500
Tock aren't these like big 
celebrities, but just 

786
00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:48,300
interesting creators like, maybe
a Majors, right? 

787
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:51,700
I saw one sort of charting out, 
you know, like the Ellen, you 

788
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:55,300
know, that Ellen selfie, that 
was a one point of the epitome 

789
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,100
of like culture and it helped 
like that was sort of Of and now

790
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:01,700
a tick tock is like so hostile 
to that, you know? 

791
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:05,400
I mean yeah no argument to that 
is like the the depth trial or 

792
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,600
whatever, but until they get 
famous right and then they can 

793
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,600
build a business off of. 
Well, I don't know that that's 

794
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,400
even happened to that extent. 
I'm like that's the funny thing.

795
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,500
Like it was it Charlie d'amelio,
she got her reality show so you 

796
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:19,300
would think she would have been 
made the leap into like bigger 

797
00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:20,900
celebrity. 
But the reality show was 

798
00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:24,000
basically about how much he 
hated being sold a pretty good, 

799
00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:26,100
right? 
I mean like, because very few 

800
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:29,600
human beings are emotionally. 
Mentally equipped for the 

801
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,900
pressures of people staring at 
them all the time is totally 

802
00:38:31,900 --> 00:38:33,800
fucked up. 
Like, you can't leave the house.

803
00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:36,400
Heath, I ask you this question 
because it's my wishful thinking

804
00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:38,800
are there. 
Also, it feels like the 

805
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,100
especially because of the 
pandemic, their cultural 

806
00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:44,900
headwinds to working, against 
what social media has always 

807
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:49,600
been this, like highly curated. 
Look at people's lives like and 

808
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,400
I wonder how much of the 
departure is in addition to 

809
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,200
context, collapse people just 
thinking is it really worth my 

810
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,300
while to pretend like Like, my 
life is great right now. 

811
00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:05,400
I would say that Tick-Tock is 
less fake than Instagram was. 

812
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,100
Oh, I guess that's what I mean, 
about Instagram. 

813
00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:09,400
Yeah, yeah. 
And and that's what Instagram is

814
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,000
trying to get to and it's kind 
of there's an optimist angle to 

815
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,600
it. 
That I've heard where, you know,

816
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,700
maybe humans are the problem 
here. 

817
00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:22,900
And when you're braking based on
how humans like interact, and 

818
00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:26,500
what they kind of like Ops 
towards, which is usually like, 

819
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,400
you know, bad My opinion, like, 
in terms of like how social 

820
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,900
media has been organized, like, 
people just, it can make people 

821
00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:35,800
horrible to each other, maybe if
you're optimizing for just this 

822
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,300
like, AI driven approach, where 
it's just content that this AI 

823
00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:43,000
thinks, like could be 
interesting for people, maybe it

824
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,400
will actually incentivize like a
healthier posting. 

825
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,800
I do think it would be good for 
America, to, obviously, have a 

826
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,500
tick, tock competitor. 
I mean, that would be the 

827
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:55,000
strongest defensive Facebook. 
Oh, you're like a monster trout 

828
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,700
here on what media You're Gonna 
Go. 

829
00:39:56,700 --> 00:40:01,600
The Nationalist route here on Is
getting detailed psychological 

830
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,800
profiles on all of us. 
What are they going to do with 

831
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,000
that information? 
Like that we are already doing 

832
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,400
with to ourselves? 
Let's go here and even even 

833
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:10,700
forgetting the Nationalist 
thing. 

834
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,900
Even forgetting the Nationalist 
thing, it would be good for 

835
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:15,400
there to be competition. 
I think Tick. 

836
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,700
Tock is going to be huge, like, 
it's only beginning, I mean, 

837
00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:22,300
it's huge already, but it's 
going to just the beginning, I 

838
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,600
know. 
But like, I feel like TV is not 

839
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,700
run by Tick-Tock yet. 
You know, it's still getting 

840
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:29,800
there. 
Until there is evidence that 

841
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,000
there has been a coordinated 
intentional. 

842
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,900
A I like a i induced like 
campaign from China to like 

843
00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:39,400
influence what Tick-Tock 
recommends to people. 

844
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,400
I don't buy this argument. 
That Tick-Tock is like a 

845
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,100
national authorized thinking to 
do with that information. 

846
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:46,300
You know, below looks like 
Olivia Rodrigo's kind of 

847
00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:49,200
meaningful to a lot of people in
America these days. 

848
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,700
There's some people don't even 
say, like suicide on Tick-Tock. 

849
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,600
There are lots of speech 
controls on Tick-Tock. 

850
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,800
I think that the bigger thing 
with tick-tock Has that we 

851
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,200
actually don't know how other 
people see. 

852
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,100
So, Their audience outside of 
the United States. 

853
00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:05,500
We're seeing very pro-russia 
videos on Tick-Tock at the very 

854
00:41:05,500 --> 00:41:08,100
same time that in America. 
We were seeing very pro-ukraine 

855
00:41:08,100 --> 00:41:10,900
messaging on Tick-Tock at the 
start of the war against, you 

856
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:14,400
know, Ukraine. 
So like I think that is the 

857
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,300
bigger thing is a, we'd have 
less visibility into who sees 

858
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:20,500
what? 
And obviously, what happens on 

859
00:41:20,500 --> 00:41:22,900
Tick Tock is extremely 
influential when it comes to 

860
00:41:22,908 --> 00:41:26,000
public opinion. 
And so, I think that that's why.

861
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,700
It's not, it's less like a 
Chinese Best large mind control 

862
00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:33,900
game, and just that another 
government may have the ability 

863
00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:36,500
to really influence public 
opinion in countries outside of 

864
00:41:36,508 --> 00:41:39,300
their own. 
So, in a country where the 

865
00:41:39,300 --> 00:41:42,100
government is willing to 
influence their companies very 

866
00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:45,300
direct but even in our country 
where I don't think we have to 

867
00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:49,000
worry about see the, you know, 
the CCP like influencing General

868
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,700
Motors. 
But I think that we saw with the

869
00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:55,600
Johnny Depp and Amber Heard 
trial that an algorithm was able

870
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,300
to very much influence how 
people thought of those two. 

871
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,200
Human beings outside of the 
merits of the legal case, and 

872
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,900
then had real implications for, 
for example, you know, domestic 

873
00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:08,200
abuse survivors all over who 
dared, talk about what happened 

874
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,300
to them with little, you know, 
with little consideration of how

875
00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:16,700
much a single company was able 
to influence public opinion. 

876
00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:19,800
And I think that's like the 
bigger issue, you know, is that 

877
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,600
what you really want happening 
with no Insight or controls? 

878
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,400
But this is the same argument of
any algorithm and that would be 

879
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,200
a problem if the company were 
can to it. 

880
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:32,800
Just that Regulators would have 
more ability to dig in and ask 

881
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,200
questions like have an oversight
hearing for example, blah, blah,

882
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,200
blah. 
Well, yeah, I mean, don't forget

883
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,100
like, Taylor Ren's had. 
That story about how I gen sake,

884
00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:43,300
whoever we're like meeting with 
Tick-Tock influencers, so they 

885
00:42:43,308 --> 00:42:46,400
could get people hyped about the
American assistance in the 

886
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,500
right, like at the very same 
time that like, you know, 

887
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:52,900
intelligence Community people 
were like, wait, what the fuck 

888
00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:54,000
is going on? 
Over Tick-Tock? 

889
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,800
It was really cool. 
It's really weird. 

890
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,000
Katie, you're speaking to this 
unease that I I think is only 

891
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,400
going to become like a more 
pronounced saying, we're talking

892
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,700
about in the next couple of 
years because like every app, 

893
00:43:04,700 --> 00:43:07,800
Facebook, Instagram, Twitter is 
leaning into recommendations, 

894
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,900
every app is going into 
recommendations and feed like 

895
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:13,200
heavy. 
And so when we're already 

896
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,100
concerned about, I mean, are you
guys kind of? 

897
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,900
I'm kind of shocked that 
Facebook given all the scrutiny.

898
00:43:17,900 --> 00:43:20,500
It's already had is just like 
fuck it. 

899
00:43:20,500 --> 00:43:23,200
Like we're going to just dictate
everything or Tech is going to 

900
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,000
just dictate everything. 
You see, it's not even because 

901
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,800
they're fallback for years. 
Was well, at the end of the day,

902
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,000
you pick who Follow and yeah. 
We met like do recommendations 

903
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,500
like on the edges but this is 
there. 

904
00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:35,300
Like I would hear time and time 
again. 

905
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:38,800
I'm right blame it on his like 
maybe they're doing that they're

906
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,200
still saying that. 
People are engaging with video 

907
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,000
more. 
Well that argument is not going 

908
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,700
to hold water. 
When like over half of your feet

909
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:49,800
is like, AI recommendation is 
based recommendations and so 

910
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,900
yeah like we're already talking 
about like man could the CCP 

911
00:43:52,900 --> 00:43:56,200
influenced Tick-Tock to be like 
turning the dial up on this or 

912
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,200
whatever. 
I don't think that has happened.

913
00:43:58,400 --> 00:43:59,900
Yeah. 
But it very well like support 

914
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:04,500
Ukraine versus support Russia. 
Yeah and we already have that 

915
00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:06,500
unease. 
We already like we are in our 

916
00:44:06,500 --> 00:44:08,300
bones. 
We think these systems can be 

917
00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:11,100
manipulated and controlled this 
way and like it's just a concern

918
00:44:11,100 --> 00:44:15,100
people have this is like this is
going to be Facebook like in a 

919
00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:16,700
year. 
Like this is going to be the 

920
00:44:16,700 --> 00:44:20,100
exact same thing so I don't 
think they fully have grappled 

921
00:44:20,100 --> 00:44:23,100
with the scrutiny that they're 
about to walk into and I hope 

922
00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:25,400
what it does is actually 
clarifies the role that 

923
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,900
regulation could play on this 
because I think for a while 

924
00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:31,700
we've been Dancing around. 
What is really the Crux of like 

925
00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:33,200
the power. 
These companies have, which is 

926
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,100
recommendations and now that 
they're really leaning into 

927
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:39,000
recommendations as like their 
business strategy. 

928
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,800
I hope that maybe we get a 
little more sense of like where 

929
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,800
the power actually sits with 
these companies and I think 

930
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,900
that's kind of the core of it 
whenever we want to talk about 

931
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,700
snap because it's time favorite 
company ever and it feels and 

932
00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:54,200
value I wondering like when you 
look at all these company's 

933
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,900
earnings Facebook snap and you 
see you know, usage, Drop. 

934
00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:01,800
But do you see any signs that 
people are just kind of turning 

935
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,600
away from social media all 
together? 

936
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:06,500
No, actually, what was 
interesting is that Facebook 

937
00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:09,900
users grew a little bit after 
they declined for the first 

938
00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:13,500
time, a couple quarters and 
that's being a tested to time 

939
00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:16,800
spent on video actually. 
So I think the the dumb videos 

940
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:21,000
are working from an engagement 
perspective in the short term, 

941
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,300
but I don't know if it will in 
the long term, the thing is with

942
00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:26,100
like even snap. 
It's still growing like the user

943
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:28,200
Ace is snap, is a business is 
one thing. 

944
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:29,900
Like the user base is still 
growing. 

945
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:33,500
They have more users than 
Twitter and yeah and like 

946
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:35,600
they're these companies are 
growing their users. 

947
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,900
It's mostly like outside of the 
US and Western Europe but it's 

948
00:45:39,900 --> 00:45:42,400
more of a business story than it
is like a user growth story. 

949
00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:44,000
Yeah. 
And so snap is also an 

950
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,300
interesting case here going back
to like earlier in our 

951
00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:49,600
conversation we're talking about
like this hierarchy of DMS to 

952
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,600
post stories or whatever. 
I mean snap is an excellent DM 

953
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,000
tool, right? 
That's that's that's main usage 

954
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,200
for a lot of people is that it's
a very, very good message. 

955
00:45:58,300 --> 00:46:01,900
Judging app, that's not a very 
good business and it's also, 

956
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,500
it's also a company that is 
done. 

957
00:46:03,500 --> 00:46:06,400
I think a good job relative to 
everyone else with the problem 

958
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,100
of context collapse, because if 
we remember what the redesigned 

959
00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:11,400
did was separate media from 
friends. 

960
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,600
And that was intentional, 
because snaps been, I think 

961
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,200
fairly intentional and trying to
keep your your friends on snap 

962
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,100
as your actual friends. 
Not have a bunch of like people 

963
00:46:22,100 --> 00:46:25,400
you don't know or like, you 
know, people from high school 

964
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,200
that you don't keep in touch 
with anymore, they actually try 

965
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,600
to encourage you to like Keep 
that graph clean. 

966
00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:32,900
And so I think that's why 
they've, they've kind of had 

967
00:46:32,900 --> 00:46:35,400
consistent growth. 
Honestly it's that's a that's a 

968
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,400
differentiated approach honestly
in the market these days. 

969
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,700
But yeah, the business is not 
there, it still remains to be 

970
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:45,000
seen whether they're the next 
Twitter and that they languish 

971
00:46:45,100 --> 00:46:49,100
forever trying to figure out how
to have a scale dad business or 

972
00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:51,300
they are something different. 
They haven't proven that they 

973
00:46:51,300 --> 00:46:54,300
can be beyond the next Twitter 
from a business perspective and 

974
00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:56,500
I think we saw that last quarter
and a pretty big way. 

975
00:46:56,900 --> 00:46:59,000
Yeah I mean that I think 
actually It was last time that 

976
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,700
you were on that I brought this 
up and maybe sounded dumb to a 

977
00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:05,500
lot of people but I still don't 
understand what its business is 

978
00:47:05,500 --> 00:47:09,500
like what its ads offering is. 
And that's also it's a smaller 

979
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,200
less, scaled less Advanced 
version of Facebook, sad 

980
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,700
business. 
It's yeah, wreck staff marketer 

981
00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:18,200
just for context is worth 16 
billion dollars. 

982
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,300
That's worth less than it was as
a private company. 

983
00:47:21,300 --> 00:47:22,300
I believe, right? 
Yeah. 

984
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,600
Yeah, I think it's last round 
before it went public was a 

985
00:47:24,607 --> 00:47:26,300
brutal teen 15? 
Yeah. 

986
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,200
It's not the lowest it's ever 
been. 

987
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,000
As a public company, I think it 
was like, dipping below, like, 

988
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,500
$5 a share. 
Yeah, a few years back. 

989
00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:37,700
Yeah, back in 2019. 
Yeah, it's not it's a company 

990
00:47:37,700 --> 00:47:40,400
that's public that still acts 
like a start-up, you know, and 

991
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,600
the terms of like how it just 
lurches from, you know, strategy

992
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,000
to strategy and like, let's the 
business just tank for a couple 

993
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,300
quarters and I think they just 
they're not running the business

994
00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:51,600
while yet. 
I think that's the biggest 

995
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,100
problem and they're spending way
too much on stock-based 

996
00:47:54,100 --> 00:47:56,700
compensation. 
And, you know, if Facebook was 

997
00:47:56,700 --> 00:47:59,900
IP out in 2012, Right? 
And then rode this, the road, 

998
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:04,300
you know, the bull market really
well, snap was kind of coming in

999
00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:07,700
later into the bull market but 
like I like even more Euphoria 

1000
00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:11,100
where it was like, Evan has if 
Mark Zuckerberg has just over 

1001
00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:14,100
fifty percent voting control 11 
has 99%. 

1002
00:48:14,100 --> 00:48:17,400
If, you know, Facebook spent 
this much on stock comp like 

1003
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,400
Snap stock, comp is through the 
roof. 

1004
00:48:19,500 --> 00:48:21,600
Like what they spend on stock. 
Calm and guess what? 

1005
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,000
Like the market used to be okay 
with that. 

1006
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,800
As long as you were growing and 
snap has been growing and other 

1007
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,300
markets completely changed and 
is like no I need to see like 

1008
00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:31,800
bottom-line results and guess 
what? 

1009
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,000
Snaps never turned a profit. 
And it's, that's that's a huge 

1010
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,300
like issue. 
Going into this next phase of 

1011
00:48:38,300 --> 00:48:40,800
the economy. 
And the reason Facebook I think 

1012
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,600
is set up fairly well relative 
to them as they do still print 

1013
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,400
money. 
What's so inexcusable about 

1014
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:46,700
snap. 
And I guess Twitter and 

1015
00:48:46,700 --> 00:48:49,300
Pinterest is that ads are a 
great fucking business. 

1016
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:52,300
These are a high margin business
and if you can't structure your 

1017
00:48:52,300 --> 00:48:55,400
company and and, you know, sell 
yourself to Wall Street in a way

1018
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,400
to build yourself, a sustainable
Profitable company that's 

1019
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,400
totally on you. 
And I think that the companies, 

1020
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,100
you know, in Mark Zuckerberg, we
spent a lot of time talking 

1021
00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:07,800
about his leadership. 
We see, like a similar kind of 

1022
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,900
problem happening with Evan 
right now. 

1023
00:49:09,900 --> 00:49:12,100
I did not listen in on earnings,
I don't cover this company 

1024
00:49:12,100 --> 00:49:15,200
anymore, he wasn't on there. 
He wasn't on earnings at all. 

1025
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:16,600
He didn't answer one question. 
She was. 

1026
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,100
So that's the thing, right? 
He apparently was on earnings 

1027
00:49:19,100 --> 00:49:20,800
but as an was were asking 
questions. 

1028
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,500
He never took an answer. 
He just kicked it over like 

1029
00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:27,200
silently to, you know, their 
Chief Financial Officer and 

1030
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,500
their head of business. 
And it got to a point where I 

1031
00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:32,000
saw Rich Greenfield tweeting at 
Evan. 

1032
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,800
He'd be like Evan how are you 
not taking an answer right now? 

1033
00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:37,200
Your company's stock is 
cratering right now. 

1034
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,700
You guys are down, 82 percent in
the last six months. 

1035
00:49:39,700 --> 00:49:42,600
I was just looking, he didn't 
say that, but like that is the 

1036
00:49:42,700 --> 00:49:45,900
that's the context here and 
Evans response was like, yeah, 

1037
00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:48,800
I'm here. 
But um, you know, I thought my 

1038
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,200
deputies were doing a good job. 
Your point about Evan, Tom, like

1039
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,600
he's younger than Mark 
Zuckerberg, he's made billions 

1040
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,800
of dollars. 
There's a lot of people at snap 

1041
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,400
who have made hundreds of 
millions of dollars in the 

1042
00:50:00,408 --> 00:50:04,300
companies never made a cent in 
progress and so it's kind of 

1043
00:50:04,300 --> 00:50:06,400
uber in that way. 
We're like you need the 

1044
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,600
incentives of the top to align 
with the needs of the business. 

1045
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:15,700
And I'm just not sure that even 
necessarily feels, he feels the 

1046
00:50:15,700 --> 00:50:17,800
pressure and that his employees 
want to leave when the stock is 

1047
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,400
low. 
And he can't like hire and 

1048
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,400
retain people. 
But we're also going to this 

1049
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,800
like recession where it's going 
to be, people aren't going to 

1050
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,100
want to jump jobs, really. 
Anyway because everyone, you 

1051
00:50:26,107 --> 00:50:30,300
know, all the stocks are down. 
So I don't know, it's I think 

1052
00:50:30,300 --> 00:50:33,200
Evan got a lot of credit for, 
you know, snaps early years 

1053
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,600
where they really pioneered 
stories and all these social 

1054
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,000
formats and they're still 
growing. 

1055
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,900
But like, yeah, the business is 
just his metaverse. 

1056
00:50:39,900 --> 00:50:43,000
Is these AR lenses that will 
become shopping ways. 

1057
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,900
We shop and advertising in and 
of itself. 

1058
00:50:46,100 --> 00:50:48,300
That's why snap is like doing 
this developer platform, where 

1059
00:50:48,300 --> 00:50:50,700
they're putting their camera and
all these other apps is like, 

1060
00:50:50,700 --> 00:50:54,000
eventually the a our lenses in 
those apps will be snap ads and 

1061
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:55,900
like they'll have their 
inventory everywhere. 

1062
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,400
The problem is is like that's 
just not Not scaling as quickly 

1063
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,500
as they thought and it's hard to
get advertisers to like wrap 

1064
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:05,100
their minds around that and 
advertising is a scale game. 

1065
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:10,000
And it just, you know, you've 
got Amazon Google and meta and, 

1066
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,200
you know, if they can reach the 
the entire world for you, why 

1067
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,200
would you necessarily like, 
invest a lot in another 

1068
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,000
platform? 
This is why a Pinterest and 

1069
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,600
Twitter and snapping all these 
companies can't figure it out. 

1070
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,900
You know, they can't figure out 
scale, dad plays and the worst 

1071
00:51:21,900 --> 00:51:24,600
that snap does. 
The less flexibility or Freedom.

1072
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,700
He will have to pursue his 
interests that are the reasons. 

1073
00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:31,000
He's But running this company 
which is building a our glasses,

1074
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,200
releasing selfie drones all this
shit. 

1075
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,100
That is part of I mean look if 
that can turn a profit and their

1076
00:51:36,100 --> 00:51:39,300
stock price continues to 
languish they're going to have 

1077
00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:42,400
to cut that whole team at some 
point right there will be there 

1078
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,000
will be no snap glad you cannot 
defend a Wall Street, they're 

1079
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,700
going to be spending however 
many tens of millions of dollars

1080
00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:49,100
a year. 
It takes to keep this thing up. 

1081
00:51:49,100 --> 00:51:51,900
That turns out a new pair of 
glasses, every couple of years, 

1082
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:55,500
for no profit in, you know, in 
perpetuity. 

1083
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,400
And so yeah, there is a reality 
to the Business. 

1084
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,300
We can knock Zuckerberg but he 
did. 

1085
00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:03,100
He did, build the second, 
largest ad business in the world

1086
00:52:03,100 --> 00:52:05,700
that throws off billions of 
years, you know, billions each 

1087
00:52:05,900 --> 00:52:09,000
year in profits and your can 
actually that he can that he can

1088
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,200
use to actually like he can he 
can find some stuff right. 

1089
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,100
Like he has a little bit of a 
leash to do that whereas like 

1090
00:52:15,700 --> 00:52:18,200
your right snap, they don't 
their leashes tightened 

1091
00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:21,700
completely and I don't know, I 
just when I'm waiting to see 

1092
00:52:21,700 --> 00:52:26,100
like the next ACT from snap as a
product like I think idealistic 

1093
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:28,400
lie like be real. 
That would have been I could 

1094
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,800
snap thing right. 
Bottle is that that to me, feels

1095
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,500
like a kind of like stories like
conceit in terms of like getting

1096
00:52:34,500 --> 00:52:38,300
back to office and authenticity 
and to see another company do 

1097
00:52:38,300 --> 00:52:40,600
that. 
And for SNAP to not be doing, 

1098
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,100
that is a little worrisome for 
me because I'm like, I thought 

1099
00:52:43,100 --> 00:52:45,300
that's what you guys were about.
As you're identifying, those 

1100
00:52:45,300 --> 00:52:48,200
needs that people have. 
Do you think that snap could 

1101
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:49,800
acquire them with that make 
sense? 

1102
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:51,600
Maybe. 
Maybe because I don't think that

1103
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,000
snap is going to be barred by 
Regulators from making 

1104
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:55,800
Acquisitions. 
In fact, I think Regulators 

1105
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:57,700
know, I could be a good idea for
me to get bigger. 

1106
00:52:57,700 --> 00:52:59,300
Love it. 
I think their investors would 

1107
00:52:59,300 --> 00:53:01,700
frown on another like stock 
heavy deal right now when their 

1108
00:53:01,700 --> 00:53:04,100
stock Compass, like through the 
roof and then you do like, cut 

1109
00:53:04,100 --> 00:53:07,500
up in snap right now. 
Say okay, Eric? 

1110
00:53:07,500 --> 00:53:10,000
You want to like could they 
inhale all my Instagram photos 

1111
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,400
and let me just keep building my
Instagram like if I want to get 

1112
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,100
a snap. 
No, no, but if it's, because 

1113
00:53:16,100 --> 00:53:18,800
he's no way for that to work. 
Somebody wants to build an 

1114
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,000
Instagram rival, can they suck 
up with an API? 

1115
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,600
All my they can't get my. 
I feel like that's where 

1116
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,200
Regulators most need to step in.
Like I feel You want you want 

1117
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,500
interoperability know just the 
reason we I wanted you to let it

1118
00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:36,700
go data portability, I just want
easy as the reason we had 

1119
00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:38,200
Cambridge analytic. 
I find this. 

1120
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,700
So fascinating, I cheering 
Cambridge analytic. 

1121
00:53:40,700 --> 00:53:42,500
I'm perfectly consistent on the 
no. 

1122
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:45,600
No, I'm just saying the reason 
that that even existed is 

1123
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,200
because of data portability shit
on Cambridge, analytical as a 

1124
00:53:48,207 --> 00:53:49,300
story to be clear? 
No. 

1125
00:53:49,300 --> 00:53:52,100
As a story as what it did, it 
was, yeah, we should shit on it 

1126
00:53:52,100 --> 00:53:54,300
but in terms of what happened, 
like the thing people were 

1127
00:53:54,300 --> 00:53:56,200
pissed about. 
That wasn't the Trump stuff. 

1128
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,200
It was Data portability, right? 
So the Fact that the EU is like,

1129
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,500
we're going to try to mandate 
data portability, it didn't work

1130
00:54:02,500 --> 00:54:04,000
out. 
Well, the first time like that 

1131
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,500
was Facebook's entire ethos was 
we're going to be the social 

1132
00:54:06,500 --> 00:54:08,800
layer of the web and let you 
take your friends with you and 

1133
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,000
your friend data with you 
wherever you go. 

1134
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,700
And like we're going to be that 
the operating system with 

1135
00:54:13,700 --> 00:54:16,300
Facebook friend graph. 
But if I want to like yeah 

1136
00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:19,400
defect and take all my stuff. 
I mean that would be cool. 

1137
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,000
Then stab can say. 
Okay, we're going to rebuild 

1138
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,900
your main photo memories app for
your friends here and you can 

1139
00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:28,000
take all those things. 
And well, where would wear this?

1140
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,900
Where that ideal actually go is,
like, picking your algorithm. 

1141
00:54:30,900 --> 00:54:32,400
So that's something Twitter's 
working on. 

1142
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,800
That's something that I think 
Facebook will do eventually. 

1143
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:38,400
We're basically like, you can 
say, I want my feed to be no 

1144
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,000
politics or I want my feed to be
like, mostly my friends with 

1145
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,300
like 20% recommendations. 
I think an ideal scenario is 

1146
00:54:45,300 --> 00:54:48,700
like, you getting to like fine. 
Tune your feed, everyone. 

1147
00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:51,000
I am very skeptic. 
Everyone's just going to pick 

1148
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,500
the AI optimized feet. 
Yeah. 

1149
00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:56,300
It's like default rule the day, 
everybody knows that. 

1150
00:54:56,300 --> 00:54:58,500
Yeah. 
Well, the companies like Offer 

1151
00:54:58,500 --> 00:55:00,800
you the ability to make your own
feed. 

1152
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,700
So you complain, less probably, 
but I think that's a 

1153
00:55:03,707 --> 00:55:06,400
distraction. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1154
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,400
It's all about making money. 
That's what I say. 

1155
00:55:08,900 --> 00:55:10,700
It's all about making money. 
Okay. 

1156
00:55:10,700 --> 00:55:13,800
I think we should have Federal 
bill on social media. 

1157
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,700
That's not about antitrust. 
We need Congress to actually 

1158
00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:20,000
have principles about what could
be done. 

1159
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,500
To make it so other companies 
could really compete with 

1160
00:55:24,500 --> 00:55:26,800
Facebook. 
And so users would have more 

1161
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,600
like companies. 
I think be reels of, I mean be 

1162
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,500
real is a perfect example of 
like, the fact that this is 

1163
00:55:32,500 --> 00:55:35,200
something that is relatively 
fragile. 

1164
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,600
I open up be real. 
It's all venture capitalists. 

1165
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:39,400
Like it's not my fault, that's 
because that's who's hard to 

1166
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,400
build a network. 
It's really hard to build a new 

1167
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,400
network, that's because you need
more friends in your address. 

1168
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:45,900
Yeah. 
I feel like you found exactly 

1169
00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:47,900
the amount of real that you're 
willing to accept. 

1170
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,700
What is what is Hunter walk 
doing right now? 

1171
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,800
Real investors, you know? 
Yeah. 

1172
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,200
Like I don't think two things 
can be true at once. 

1173
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,800
Here you can't say Facebook is 
like a monopoly and like social 

1174
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,600
media is this entrenched thing 
where no one can compete and you

1175
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:05,100
can't also say like Facebook is 
like being destroyed by 

1176
00:56:05,100 --> 00:56:08,400
Tick-Tock and likes like 
relearning the entire company to

1177
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,800
try to compete with Tick-Tock 
and be real as at the top of the

1178
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,700
App Store charts and snap is 
still growing and Discord is 

1179
00:56:13,700 --> 00:56:15,900
still growing. 
Like I just I think social media

1180
00:56:15,900 --> 00:56:19,000
is like I don't know what it I 
mean you're saying you don't 

1181
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:20,600
want the bill to be an actress 
Focus, right? 

1182
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,300
You I want it to be focused on 
what I mean if it's not about 

1183
00:56:23,300 --> 00:56:27,100
trust and also to your point 
with antitrust, like antitrust 

1184
00:56:27,300 --> 00:56:30,700
regulation is creating the 
conditions by which a company 

1185
00:56:30,700 --> 00:56:33,200
other than Facebook will be 
incredibly innovated and get to 

1186
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,000
get big, right? 
Yeah. 

1187
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:36,500
Yeah. 
So Eric, what do you mean in 

1188
00:56:36,500 --> 00:56:38,800
terms of like, what What 
legislation do you want to see 

1189
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,500
on social media? 
He would be great to see 

1190
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,600
Congress. 
Think through like the oversight

1191
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:47,000
board type category, like what 
sorts of decisions should be 

1192
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,400
outside of companies, and what 
sorts should be in them, what? 

1193
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,000
Stability for transparency about
their decision. 

1194
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,000
You know, to give the 
conservatives about if somebody 

1195
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,400
is Shadow band or whatever. 
Do they have a responsibility to

1196
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,500
disclose it? 
You could put a lot of reporting

1197
00:57:00,500 --> 00:57:02,800
requirements on these companies 
and say, you have to be 

1198
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,700
transparent about XYZ. 
You have to implement this 

1199
00:57:05,700 --> 00:57:09,500
process for this, obviously any 
rules like that then sort of 

1200
00:57:09,500 --> 00:57:12,500
Advantage the bigger players, 
you could set some sort of 

1201
00:57:12,508 --> 00:57:15,900
threshold of market cap, or 
users or something for who has 

1202
00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:17,400
to apply it. 
But I would just like a 

1203
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:22,600
principles-based approach, where
our society, T actually reckons 

1204
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,200
with what it wants and social 
media, and puts that into 

1205
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,500
legislation, isn't that? 
That's what government is 

1206
00:57:28,500 --> 00:57:30,500
supposed to be. 
We think about our values 

1207
00:57:30,500 --> 00:57:32,900
collectively and we articulate 
them through. 

1208
00:57:32,900 --> 00:57:34,200
I don't think people know what 
they want. 

1209
00:57:34,300 --> 00:57:36,000
I don't think people know what 
they want, me neither, I mean, 

1210
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,000
I'm not on social media. 
I think the politicians who talk

1211
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,600
about this, don't know what they
want and a trade on the lazy way

1212
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,500
to do it. 
Like antitrust is just we hate 

1213
00:57:43,500 --> 00:57:47,600
it booing. 
No antitrust is we're going to 

1214
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,900
make sure there's not a monopoly
antitrust is we're putting But 

1215
00:57:50,900 --> 00:57:52,700
going to position right now 
where it can't just keep on 

1216
00:57:52,700 --> 00:57:55,100
buying other companies. 
So other companies have the 

1217
00:57:55,100 --> 00:57:58,600
chance to rival Facebook. 
So then there can be Market 

1218
00:57:58,600 --> 00:57:59,600
competition. 
That's not. 

1219
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,800
We hate Facebook. 
That is literally, we won't 

1220
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:06,900
there be a motivates them is 
hatred of Facebook. 

1221
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,200
No, it's literally, we don't 
want a monopoly. 

1222
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,000
I mean, I guess you could say 
that. 

1223
00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:13,300
I guess you could say that they 
hated the big railroad 

1224
00:58:13,300 --> 00:58:16,400
companies. 
I mean, it's just saying we want

1225
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:20,600
to have competition in this area
of growth and we don't want one.

1226
00:58:20,700 --> 00:58:23,700
Many to be able to buy all of 
these smaller companies are used

1227
00:58:23,700 --> 00:58:26,700
in competition worrying about 
antitrust, whatever worried 

1228
00:58:26,700 --> 00:58:28,700
about Microsoft antitrust, 
lawsuit that gave us. 

1229
00:58:28,700 --> 00:58:32,100
Google wouldn't have had Google 
if there hadn't been in her 

1230
00:58:32,100 --> 00:58:36,600
chest regulation, imposed on 
Microsoft like that is the 

1231
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:38,800
creation. 
That is why that is why it's 

1232
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:42,800
done so that competition can 
create new and Innovative 

1233
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:44,600
companies that have the chance 
to become. 

1234
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:47,600
Sure large company, I'm not 
saying I hate antitrust law 

1235
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,600
overall, but I think antitrust 
is a cop-out in terms. 

1236
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:55,200
Actually regulating Facebook and
social media based on a 

1237
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:56,800
must-have thing, you care about 
is whether or not have a 

1238
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:58,800
monopoly in which case it is the
actual right? 

1239
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,200
Let me tick tocks. 
Huge as we've been saying, yeah,

1240
00:59:01,300 --> 00:59:05,000
there's like there's I feel like
there's the capacity to talk is 

1241
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,600
not an American company. 
No, but I hear what Eric saying?

1242
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,600
I do think there is a difference
between one of the main goals of

1243
00:59:10,900 --> 00:59:14,200
antitrust which is that a 
concern with the monopolies that

1244
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,000
they can do price fixing and 
they could, you know, charge 

1245
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,100
advertisers, you know, infinite 
amounts of money to reach people

1246
00:59:20,100 --> 00:59:22,900
because they're the The only 
Outlet to reach people which is 

1247
00:59:22,900 --> 00:59:26,300
just not the there's not the 
case with Amazon became a like 

1248
00:59:26,300 --> 00:59:30,000
Google that I trust and much 
more supportive like Google 

1249
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:34,700
behaves like I'm a not well they
own they own the rails and like 

1250
00:59:34,700 --> 00:59:36,500
what sits on top of it? 
That's the Google problem, 

1251
00:59:36,500 --> 00:59:38,200
right? 
But Katie actually would love to

1252
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:39,600
know what you think about Lena 
cons. 

1253
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:45,200
First, big move as FTC chair 
trying to get meta to not buy a 

1254
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,100
tiny VR company. 
That's what I was referring to 

1255
00:59:48,100 --> 00:59:50,200
earlier. 
Yeah, it was really interesting.

1256
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,500
Basically, it sounds like she's 
saying, well, Mark Zuckerberg if

1257
00:59:53,500 --> 00:59:56,200
you're telling us that this is 
really the future, this is where

1258
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,300
all the money is going to be, 
and this is going to be the most

1259
00:59:59,300 --> 01:00:02,000
important thing. 
Well, then I need to let lots of

1260
01:00:02,008 --> 01:00:04,500
different companies experiment 
in this area before you just buy

1261
01:00:04,500 --> 01:00:07,500
them all because otherwise. 
Yeah, all that's happening. 

1262
01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:12,800
Is you're upping the game. 
You've called the end, we know 

1263
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,700
how it's going to, how it's 
going to turn out and you're 

1264
01:00:15,700 --> 01:00:18,400
ensuring that nobody else can 
reap any of the benefits. 

1265
01:00:19,500 --> 01:00:22,500
But apple is Your competitor in 
this one. 

1266
01:00:22,500 --> 01:00:24,000
Oh well, not yet, but they will 
be. 

1267
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,400
But Katie like what is the? 
I would love to know like the 

1268
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,400
legal argument for. 
We think this thing might happen

1269
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:36,000
therefore based on antitrust 
grounds is what is what is this?

1270
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:38,100
I don't know. 
We think it will. 

1271
01:00:38,100 --> 01:00:40,400
It's it's like, it's like you 
the company told. 

1272
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,800
Uh, yeah. 
Be the company turn left if the 

1273
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:48,200
market is not what it is yet, 
but the regulation is being done

1274
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:52,100
because it may be become that 
She mentioned The Clayton Act in

1275
01:00:52,100 --> 01:00:55,300
her in the complaint where it 
was like we basically have to 

1276
01:00:55,300 --> 01:00:58,100
defend this Under The Clayton 
Act and my understanding of that

1277
01:00:58,100 --> 01:01:02,300
is not I don't really I see how 
that applies to something like a

1278
01:01:02,308 --> 01:01:07,500
tiny VR startup in a market that
is is not monopolize door, nor 

1279
01:01:07,500 --> 01:01:09,800
does it have like significant 
Powers is not like a power. 

1280
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,900
I guess the I guess I'm getting 
my tan again. 

1281
01:01:11,900 --> 01:01:14,000
Keep in mind, I'm not a lawyer 
but I think that the piece of 

1282
01:01:14,008 --> 01:01:16,200
The Clayton Act that she be 
referring to be the predatory 

1283
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,200
piece. 
Probably not that, which is the 

1284
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,500
purpose of the Instagram and 
WhatsApp challenges, right? 

1285
01:01:20,700 --> 01:01:22,800
Right? 
It's not time to embrace legal 

1286
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,900
realism at this point, who 
cares? 

1287
01:01:25,900 --> 01:01:27,800
Like I mean, watch anything 
happening. 

1288
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:33,000
Our society, like Eric has very 
interesting, you can't be like I

1289
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,300
want there to be. 
You can't say, I want Congress 

1290
01:01:36,300 --> 01:01:39,300
to come up with a really 
rational articulation of what 

1291
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:41,800
they want from social media, and
then later, say, have you seen 

1292
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:43,400
anything that's happening in our
society? 

1293
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,200
Why do we think this is going to
happen? 

1294
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,200
I'm saying that in line with my 
belief that there's legal, I'm 

1295
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:52,400
just saying it's sad that we now
live in a society Where we can't

1296
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,500
use the legislature to actually,
formulate our views on social 

1297
01:01:55,500 --> 01:01:57,700
media, but we just whine about 
it all the time. 

1298
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,000
And similarly, we live in a 
society where yeah, like the 

1299
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:02,900
legal system is not 
values-based. 

1300
01:02:02,900 --> 01:02:05,100
I mean to me those those things 
are related. 

1301
01:02:05,100 --> 01:02:07,200
I'm not saying antitrust laws, 
not values. 

1302
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,100
I'm sitting a lot like the 
effect of the Microsoft 

1303
01:02:10,100 --> 01:02:13,500
decision, Microsoft antitrust, 
prosecution basically failed. 

1304
01:02:13,500 --> 01:02:15,900
But it's succeeded by just 
scaring the shit out of 

1305
01:02:15,900 --> 01:02:17,800
Microsoft and allowed people to 
compete. 

1306
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:20,400
And that a lot of the actual 
antitrust politics are just 

1307
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:21,500
power. 
Politics. 

1308
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,700
And so, whenever you're arguing 
about, how are you allowed to do

1309
01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:25,600
that? 
It's like well, if she can do it

1310
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:27,800
for long enough that they're not
able to acquire it, that's what 

1311
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:31,000
matters more than sadly vote. 
Is that values-based or not 

1312
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,700
value space. 
I'm saying, its power power 

1313
01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:37,500
base, and as I value, were 
announced in sort of some legal 

1314
01:02:37,500 --> 01:02:40,300
rationale has, and we couldn't 
you say that every law is that 

1315
01:02:40,300 --> 01:02:42,800
Eric without that would be sort 
of like legal rulings. 

1316
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,200
You say that like 
anti-discrimination laws and I 

1317
01:02:45,207 --> 01:02:49,500
hate crimes law that the, you 
know, the Matthew Shepard James 

1318
01:02:49,500 --> 01:02:52,800
Byrd anti-hate. 
A law is simply that screen that

1319
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:54,400
shit out of people say, don't 
punch people. 

1320
01:02:54,700 --> 01:02:56,100
I mean, I'm not really sure what
I mean. 

1321
01:02:56,100 --> 01:02:59,500
What do you think a lot does? 
But the Lena con idea is to 

1322
01:02:59,500 --> 01:03:03,500
expand antitrust views as much 
as you can get away with. 

1323
01:03:03,500 --> 01:03:06,600
Like I just think that's a fair.
Well let's be like let's be 

1324
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:08,800
clear. 
She herself leenock on herself 

1325
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,000
said and one of her first 
interviews that I'm going to 

1326
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:14,500
intentionally make do cases 
where I know that our odds of 

1327
01:03:14,500 --> 01:03:17,300
winning are incredibly slim to 
none but I'm doing them to send 

1328
01:03:17,300 --> 01:03:19,400
a message. 
Really right power. 

1329
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,000
That's what I think. 
I've heard people say the same 

1330
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:23,500
thing. 
They're like even if the justice

1331
01:03:23,500 --> 01:03:26,000
department could never win a 
case against Trump, they should 

1332
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,300
indict him to send a message. 
It is exactly the contrast and 

1333
01:03:29,300 --> 01:03:31,800
think how Merrick Garland seems 
to behaving and Lena? 

1334
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:33,400
Could you think that there are 
garlic? 

1335
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:35,800
Do you think that the justice 
department should indict? 

1336
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,200
Donald Trump, even if they think
that they could lose before a 

1337
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:40,600
jury of his peers? 
Even if they think that it's the

1338
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,400
right thing to do, and that he 
did something wrong, do you 

1339
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:45,500
think that it apartment should 
indict Donald Trump? 

1340
01:03:45,500 --> 01:03:47,100
If they think they could lose in
a court of law? 

1341
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,300
I'm guessing. 
The answer is, I'm guessing. 

1342
01:03:49,300 --> 01:03:50,800
The answer is no. 
Thank you can lose. 

1343
01:03:50,900 --> 01:03:53,600
It depends on percentages and 
what the case is. 

1344
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,600
And yeah. 
But I do think like, certainly, 

1345
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:58,400
you want to think it's more 
likely than not. 

1346
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,500
You could convince somebody 
right II do think that's a 

1347
01:04:01,500 --> 01:04:04,100
reason. 
Some people, some people say 

1348
01:04:04,500 --> 01:04:08,400
that even if they had airtight 
evidence, very good evidence and

1349
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:12,000
they could indict Donald Trump 
that they would ultimately lose 

1350
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,900
because the case we get appealed
and it would never pass the 

1351
01:04:14,900 --> 01:04:18,700
appeals bench in DC or 
nevertheless, it's really not so

1352
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:20,500
at that point. 
Should they indict him? 

1353
01:04:20,900 --> 01:04:24,300
If if the chances are slim to 
none will ultimately Prevail, I 

1354
01:04:24,300 --> 01:04:26,300
think with antitrust 
specifically right now when 

1355
01:04:26,300 --> 01:04:30,500
we're talking about, you know, 
citing The Clayton Act in order 

1356
01:04:30,500 --> 01:04:33,600
to explain the acts of 21st 
century companies there has 

1357
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:35,000
been. 
I know this is a very, you know,

1358
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,700
debated Topic in DC or among 
like antitrust lawyers, it is 

1359
01:04:38,707 --> 01:04:42,200
very difficult to find the exact
perfect legal precedent in which

1360
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:44,600
you can explain the actions of a
lot of these tech companies and 

1361
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:49,100
how that falls into the typical 
umbrella of antitrust, which is 

1362
01:04:49,100 --> 01:04:52,300
that, this is causing consumers.
Because they can be price 

1363
01:04:52,300 --> 01:04:54,300
gouged, right? 
That is not the coralina cons 

1364
01:04:54,300 --> 01:04:57,600
whole paper on Amazon, right? 
And, and and right, and so, I 

1365
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:01,800
think I actually have less issue
with her taking a novel, legal 

1366
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,700
approach to, you know, filing 
cases against Facebook because 

1367
01:05:05,700 --> 01:05:08,300
it doesn't necessarily fit 
within, you know, historical 

1368
01:05:08,300 --> 01:05:10,100
precedents. 
But saying look, let's try this 

1369
01:05:10,100 --> 01:05:11,700
out. 
Let's, let's see if we can get 

1370
01:05:11,700 --> 01:05:14,600
these arguments out there in the
public and debated in a way, 

1371
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,100
that maybe the suit doesn't 
work, but it at least pushes 

1372
01:05:17,100 --> 01:05:20,400
things and the conversation, the
legal conversation in a way that

1373
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,900
we can have. 
An intelligent modernization of 

1374
01:05:22,900 --> 01:05:25,500
antitrust law. 
That we all I think would agree 

1375
01:05:25,500 --> 01:05:28,800
that there is some issue with 
multi hundred billion dollar 

1376
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,100
trillion dollar companies having
untrammeled power over the way, 

1377
01:05:32,100 --> 01:05:35,200
they run their business and 
other small businesses that, you

1378
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:37,100
know, the current system hasn't 
fixed. 

1379
01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:40,600
And so I, yeah, Tom. 
I'm coming around to this 

1380
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:42,800
actually in that, I think she 
will have an easier time, 

1381
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,400
defining Market, power Monopoly,
power with VR, then she will 

1382
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:50,600
with social media because Oculus
is by far the VR industry. 

1383
01:05:50,900 --> 01:05:53,800
It is a pretty much just Oculus,
so if you want to have like a 

1384
01:05:53,808 --> 01:05:56,600
narrow market definition to try 
to argue Monopoly power, she 

1385
01:05:56,600 --> 01:05:58,600
should be doing it in VR and not
social media. 

1386
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:01,800
And that's why I think the ftc's
already had trouble with its big

1387
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:03,500
complaint. 
The suit about Instagram and 

1388
01:06:03,500 --> 01:06:05,900
WhatsApp and Market definitions.
They didn't even include 

1389
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:09,000
Tick-Tock and their Market 
definitions for the Instagram. 

1390
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,000
WhatsApp challenge, which is 
insane to me. 

1391
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:15,600
But yeah, I think the VR side 
You could argue there a monopoly

1392
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,500
and so maybe they should, you 
know, if you could go back to 

1393
01:06:18,500 --> 01:06:21,700
like early App Store and make 
sure that that Apple couldn't 

1394
01:06:21,700 --> 01:06:25,400
just leverage the App Store to 
become what it has, which they 

1395
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:29,000
most certainly did. 
There's no question then yeah, 

1396
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,600
maybe you should do that and if 
Mark Zuckerberg does think, this

1397
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,600
is the next major Computing 
platform. 

1398
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:36,800
I just have a problem with like 
the like we think this might be 

1399
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:38,200
a things. 
Therefore, we're going to do 

1400
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:39,300
this now. 
Yeah. 

1401
01:06:40,100 --> 01:06:43,400
You got to like, come up with 
the fact that this is a monopoly

1402
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:46,800
in the same Market. 
It could, it could happen. 

1403
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:48,900
I mean, I think it's hilarious. 
That this like government 

1404
01:06:48,900 --> 01:06:52,200
complaint is like talking about 
beats a Brr and how you trying 

1405
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:56,600
to like Define beat saber as a 
competitor to Supernatural are 

1406
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,000
just totally not. 
And it's just really funny to 

1407
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:01,200
see them. 
Try to stretch this like idea 

1408
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:04,300
what you think to like antitrust
is in some ways unique, but at 

1409
01:07:04,300 --> 01:07:07,200
the end of the day, especially 
around policy. 

1410
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:12,700
These things do get changed like
our government positions. 

1411
01:07:12,700 --> 01:07:15,200
And the way that laws operate 
and the way that things are 

1412
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:19,400
regulated through laws are 
through laws and courts. 

1413
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:24,900
Often shift and change because 
people are willing to bring 

1414
01:07:25,300 --> 01:07:29,100
novel cases, right? 
And stretch the law or try to 

1415
01:07:29,100 --> 01:07:31,700
move the law. 
So I mean we don't just see an 

1416
01:07:31,700 --> 01:07:34,700
antitrust, we see it with 
abortion, for example, we've 

1417
01:07:34,700 --> 01:07:37,100
seen in a lot of ways so I don't
think it's Unique. 

1418
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:39,800
I don't think that what Lana 
Khan wants to do is necessarily 

1419
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:43,600
incredibly unique. 
I mean, it because she did come 

1420
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,700
out and say it upset a lot of 
people, but I think that we see 

1421
01:07:46,700 --> 01:07:49,800
it happening and we'll all sorts
of ways around others. 

1422
01:07:49,900 --> 01:07:51,900
Things, you know people saying 
like we're going to start 

1423
01:07:51,900 --> 01:07:55,100
bringing novel cases and states 
and rest country because we want

1424
01:07:55,100 --> 01:07:57,300
to bring a challenge to Roe 
versus Wade and get it to the 

1425
01:07:57,300 --> 01:07:58,800
Supreme Court. 
So finally, can someone can 

1426
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,800
finally help us figure out in 
this context the 21st century, 

1427
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,700
what we really think of this 
practice, we're going to bring a

1428
01:08:05,700 --> 01:08:08,700
bunch of Novel cases so we can 
get them finally to another 

1429
01:08:08,700 --> 01:08:11,100
litigate, you know, to another 
Judiciary, but bold this case 

1430
01:08:11,100 --> 01:08:14,800
again the Supreme Court we can 
finally figure out what's what 

1431
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:17,800
school should do around their 
admissions policies and race 

1432
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:22,100
around voting rights. 
Around election issues. 

1433
01:08:22,100 --> 01:08:25,800
Like it is not that unusual to 
say, it doesn't matter if we're 

1434
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:27,700
going to win or lose. 
We want to bring the case to 

1435
01:08:27,700 --> 01:08:32,399
test it, to see what happens and
to see where we get like lots 

1436
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:34,200
and lots and lots of times this 
happened. 

1437
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:37,000
I just wish like on other 
issues, the Democratic party, 

1438
01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:40,399
would lay out like what it wants
like what the end state is like,

1439
01:08:40,399 --> 01:08:43,200
we think app stores should have 
these dreams. 

1440
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,200
You're like, like if they had 
legislation Republicans Really 

1441
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:48,200
Gonna, they're like, we want to 
get rid of affirmative act, 

1442
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:50,700
right with this, is the gold. 
These are the cases we're gonna 

1443
01:08:50,700 --> 01:08:54,500
lose exact 25 years and they did
lose for 25 years, but they're 

1444
01:08:54,500 --> 01:08:57,000
gonna win now, like, lay out 
what you want and legislation, 

1445
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,399
and then if you feel like, okay,
we can't pass this bill, but 

1446
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:01,800
this is what we have all come 
together and said we want. 

1447
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:04,399
Use antitrust to get it. 
I'm like, okay, at least it's a 

1448
01:09:04,407 --> 01:09:07,700
line with principles, you've 
articulated, but I think the 

1449
01:09:07,700 --> 01:09:10,800
inability to articulate in 
legislation what they want, 

1450
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,100
reflects, just how dumb and 
simplistic. 

1451
01:09:13,100 --> 01:09:16,500
The thinking about social media 
is and then antitrust is being 

1452
01:09:16,500 --> 01:09:18,500
wielded. 
It's not that it's dialed, its 

1453
01:09:18,500 --> 01:09:22,200
political they don't want to 
What is the real motivation of 

1454
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:24,200
this? 
Which is that, like, it's hatred

1455
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,100
of Facebook. 
Like it's, you cannot tell me 

1456
01:09:27,100 --> 01:09:31,100
that out of all the Monopoly 
antitrust, concerns Apple just 

1457
01:09:31,100 --> 01:09:33,600
kneecaps. 
The digital ads online. 

1458
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:37,800
Ecosystem unilaterally, right? 
Prompt more than any regulator 

1459
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:40,300
has ever been able to, like 
change how digital ads work 

1460
01:09:40,300 --> 01:09:41,700
Apple. 
Just did it with a prompt. 

1461
01:09:42,500 --> 01:09:44,899
I know Facebook worked on an 
antitrust lawsuit. 

1462
01:09:44,899 --> 01:09:47,800
They were about to file other 
companies of looked at it this 

1463
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:49,899
is pissed. 
A lot of companies off its He's 

1464
01:09:49,907 --> 01:09:52,600
destroying small businesses, 
like I'm working on a story 

1465
01:09:52,600 --> 01:09:54,200
about this. 
It's actually fascinating how 

1466
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:57,600
like d to C Brands can't 
advertise effectively anymore 

1467
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:00,100
like it's their cost of gone so 
far through the roof because of 

1468
01:10:00,100 --> 01:10:02,100
Apple. 
So we talk about pricing Power 

1469
01:10:02,300 --> 01:10:05,000
Platform power. 
There's Google, there's Apple, 

1470
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,700
there's legitimate like 
monopolies that exist in the 

1471
01:10:07,700 --> 01:10:09,400
world. 
Today, I would love for our 

1472
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:13,000
government to be focusing on 
those and not necessarily. 

1473
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:15,200
I do think it's important to 
look to the future but I think 

1474
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:16,600
we have a lot to deal with in 
the present. 

1475
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:19,800
And I think the fact that Lena 
cons first, big case was about a

1476
01:10:19,900 --> 01:10:22,900
Our app that is a meta thing 
says, a lot about. 

1477
01:10:22,900 --> 01:10:25,300
Just where the government how 
the government feels about 

1478
01:10:25,300 --> 01:10:26,500
Facebook. 
Yeah. 

1479
01:10:27,100 --> 01:10:28,900
And it's not with the startup 
industry one. 

1480
01:10:28,900 --> 01:10:33,200
I'm sure that the regulator's 
personally hated Andrew Carnegie

1481
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,800
Rockefeller like you're right? 
There's all kinds the I mean 

1482
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:41,800
these these things are often 
about power and so is there, you

1483
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,400
know, animus against some of 
these companies or people as The

1484
01:10:45,407 --> 01:10:46,900
Regulators are dealing with 
them? 

1485
01:10:47,100 --> 01:10:50,700
I'm sure if you read like a 
really great history, Three of 

1486
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:55,700
you know us steel you would 
totally see the biggest personal

1487
01:10:55,700 --> 01:10:59,300
hatred of Carnegie motivating a 
lot. 

1488
01:10:59,300 --> 01:11:02,000
I'm sure. 
Anyway, thanks Keith, this was 

1489
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:03,300
great. 
Thanks so much for joining. 

1490
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:05,400
We'll see everybody. 
Yeah everybody back here next 

1491
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:06,600
time. 
Thanks so much. 

1492
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:21,100
Bye-bye. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1493
01:11:21,100 --> 01:11:23,400
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, 
goodbye. 

1494
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:21,100
Goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1495
01:11:21,100 --> 01:11:23,400
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, 
goodbye. 

1496
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:24,100
Goodbye.