1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:16,900 Welcome everybody. It's Eric newcomer here with 2 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:20,400 dead cat. We've got Tom and Katie and 3 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,900 we're super excited to have Hunter walk here of Homebrew. 4 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:30,500 Venture, capitalists whose now, investing out of Their own 5 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:32,800 money. I guess I'm curious to sort of 6 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,300 get the story and a lively, Twitter presence. 7 00:00:36,300 --> 00:00:40,500 So a good opportunity to sort of get up to speed on. 8 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:43,500 What's, what's going on in Silicon Valley? 9 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,900 Money World Hunter. How's it going great? 10 00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:48,300 Hey friends. Thanks for having me. 11 00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:51,500 Yeah, one question. Is there a dead cat soundboard? 12 00:00:51,500 --> 00:00:56,100 Like, dude, you sound drunk? Would you like us to have a 13 00:00:56,108 --> 00:00:58,000 sound for you? Katie specifically. 14 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,100 I don't know if you remember. But like, when you used to To 15 00:01:00,100 --> 00:01:03,400 drop big Tech Scoops, when you're at that part of the times 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,900 I think I'd reply with like hashtag better bomb Twitter. 17 00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:11,400 I was wondering if we could get like a funk Flex bomb, drop for 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,900 you. Here we are as in your can put 19 00:01:13,900 --> 00:01:15,300 that in. After the fact, it's like how 20 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:18,100 Ronan Farrow posts on his Instagram story is like brace 21 00:01:18,100 --> 00:01:22,000 for impact, right before some other Hollywood, perv gets taken 22 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:34,500 down. I feel like our Scruples on a 23 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:40,700 copyright paranoia are low. So good with some audience fair 24 00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:42,800 use is a very gray area, so, right? 25 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:44,600 You're an expert in. Yeah, we're going to get any, 26 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,900 I'm curious tug YouTube and all that stuff from your old days 27 00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:49,200 to, for sure. For sure. 28 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,500 The closest thing I think we have do a sound board as my 29 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:54,700 fucking cat walking into the room and Writing to starting to 30 00:01:54,700 --> 00:01:57,200 opine a hedge will happen by the way, my doors, you know. 31 00:01:57,300 --> 00:01:59,500 Now, to be fair, your cat fucking would be an interesting 32 00:01:59,500 --> 00:02:01,400 sound or two. Yeah, no. 33 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,700 She's that's next month. Yeah, that's yeah. 34 00:02:05,700 --> 00:02:07,400 That's a different audio. Everyone always criticizes are 35 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,200 dead cat named, but I didn't think about that as the, you 36 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:16,100 know, the little deaths that cat and on that note, hello, 37 00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:17,100 everybody? Yes. 38 00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:21,700 All right, so Hunter, yeah, why don't you just explain? 39 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:24,400 Because I'm going to be honest. Eric doesn't want me to be 40 00:02:24,408 --> 00:02:26,300 honest anymore but things I didn't read Tom. 41 00:02:26,300 --> 00:02:28,400 Why don't you say? He doesn't know what's going on. 42 00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:30,500 No, he isn't gonna think I followed, I followed your 43 00:02:30,500 --> 00:02:33,500 announcement and, you know, Casey Newton's, you know, 44 00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:36,200 dutiful broadcasting of your announcement when you guys kind 45 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,400 of changed the structure on Homebrew, why don't you just 46 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,500 explain to our audience? Aka me what the new the new 47 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:45,500 strategy is with Homebrew because I don't actually 48 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:47,200 understand it. Absolutely, yeah and look, it's 49 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,900 a little bit inside baseball, like, basically, we've been 50 00:02:49,900 --> 00:02:51,300 meaning to announce it this year. 51 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,500 We were heading to a conference room. 52 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:55,700 I knew there'd be a bunch of other VCS and everyone want to 53 00:02:55,700 --> 00:02:57,600 be like, how are things going, what's up with Homebrew? 54 00:02:57,700 --> 00:03:00,000 And as opposed to having the same conversation a hundred 55 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,800 times were like, oh we gotta get this post out, then we realized, 56 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,300 we didn't have any art for it. So 9:45 p.m. in La Sachin, my 57 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:09,300 partner and I always share a hotel room and we travel. 58 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:12,200 Its kind of the roommate thing. So we're like searching for 59 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,600 thirty dollar clip art, which you can see in the post itself 60 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,800 at home. Brew bring hundred Arena. 61 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,700 Okay. So look, here's the background 62 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,700 for people who probably, I don't assume most people have heard of 63 00:03:22,708 --> 00:03:25,600 Homebrew to begin with. So I'm a former product manager, 64 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,900 who about 10 years ago with a friend and former colleague 65 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:32,000 started in early stage Venture fund called, Homebrew named 66 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,700 after the Homebrew Computer Club of the 1970s or early eighties. 67 00:03:36,100 --> 00:03:38,000 A tip backwards, we could talk about that naming. 68 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,000 If you want later first 10 years, it's kind of very 69 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,100 standard, right? We make eight to ten core 70 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:46,600 Investments a year seed, stage companies, trying to do one to 71 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,400 two million of their first 0 to 5 and then really sort of, you 72 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,600 know, long-term investors. But for first three to five 73 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,000 years, right? Their seats a series be kind of 74 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,800 leaned in and be helpful. Try to help them build a 75 00:03:57,808 --> 00:04:00,100 foundation to be the best version of, you know, of what 76 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:02,300 they can become. Because it's our business, we 77 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:05,000 get to, you know, decide what we want it to be from the 78 00:04:05,008 --> 00:04:07,200 beginning, you know. Look, we didn't want to be 79 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,500 Empire Builders. There was no plans for growth 80 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:11,900 and no plans for succession right from the beginning. 81 00:04:11,900 --> 00:04:15,700 You said, you didn't want it to be a generational firm, right? 82 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,000 Correct. Great multi. 83 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,000 Yeah, no multi-generational. And look you own your business. 84 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,399 Like you can always revisit that. 85 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:24,600 But but I always think of us as an Operating model with a 86 00:04:24,608 --> 00:04:27,200 flexible business model. The operating model is the two 87 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,700 of us working together spending most of our time with the 88 00:04:29,700 --> 00:04:30,800 founders. We back. 89 00:04:30,900 --> 00:04:34,500 Not going to conferences, not networking, not chasing the next 90 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:37,200 hot white see deal. But the answer to the question, 91 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,300 what do we want Homebrew to be for the next 10 years? 92 00:04:39,500 --> 00:04:41,100 We came up with an answer. That was a little bit different 93 00:04:41,100 --> 00:04:43,400 than I think a lot of our peers, a lot of our peers have grown 94 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,100 quite significantly over the time. 95 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,100 What Founders need has changed over the last, you know, eight 96 00:04:48,100 --> 00:04:51,100 nine, ten years. And so we said look, we're gonna 97 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:53,600 if we don't want to grow, you know, why don't we actually A 98 00:04:53,608 --> 00:04:56,100 sort of stay the same or maybe even quote unquote, shrink 99 00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:59,400 right. Let's focus on what matters and 100 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,400 that's being flexible enough to work with the founders. 101 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,400 We care about in the easiest way possible that meant no longer, 102 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,300 you know, having to have like an ownership Target. 103 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:10,700 Well, you know, our piece fits so long as you want to sell, its 104 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:14,900 15% of your company, it meant no longer like trying to figure out 105 00:05:14,900 --> 00:05:18,800 in advance how much are fun. Should be 100 million, 200 106 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,600 million, 30 million, 40 million, like that. 107 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,000 All when you're when you're building a spreadsheet, you 108 00:05:23,008 --> 00:05:25,200 know. A sort of manage manage a fund. 109 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:26,600 You have to figure that stuff out in advance. 110 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,400 So, we did two things. We said one, let's start out 111 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:34,300 this fun for by actually just using our own money. 112 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,900 I know this is an extremely personal question, but how what, 113 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,600 how much money is that, or? How, how much money are you 114 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,200 putting behind in? It's more about sort of saying, 115 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,800 look, I've got enough where, like, I can forgo the salary, I 116 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,600 can forego the, you know, the leverage on other people's 117 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,600 dollars and I'm willing to Make the long-term bet that if we're 118 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,100 writing checks together and you know taking a hundred percent of 119 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:01,400 the risk by keeping 100% of The Upside like that's going to work 120 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,000 out perfectly fine over time. And you know if it doesn't then 121 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,100 you know whoa I got to figure out, you know what, you know how 122 00:06:08,100 --> 00:06:10,700 to resolve that. But I think we're basically that 123 00:06:10,700 --> 00:06:11,800 may be the easiest way to talk about. 124 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:17,000 It is traditionally, most VCS are asked to do one percent of 125 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,900 their fund. That's like the GP commit. 126 00:06:19,300 --> 00:06:23,400 What we are putting towards this effort, is more than the 1%. 127 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,300 We used to do, you know of our Venture funds, right? 128 00:06:26,300 --> 00:06:29,000 So you know, people can sort of run the math and figure that 129 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,900 out. What is it specifically about 130 00:06:30,900 --> 00:06:34,300 the Venture model that you were disillusioned by like was it 131 00:06:34,300 --> 00:06:37,100 going around to the LPS to the endowments? 132 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:39,600 No, no I love. In fact they're great. 133 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,500 We've always been really focused on a small number of endowments 134 00:06:42,500 --> 00:06:45,300 and Foundations who we, you know, I'm just, I'm sure we're 135 00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:47,200 going to figure out some way to continue to work with. 136 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,000 Like there's going to be checks that are, you know, too big, you 137 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,400 know, for us to write and companies that we've, you know, 138 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,500 maybe back to We and, you know, SPV he's or that type of stuff. 139 00:06:55,500 --> 00:06:59,200 Also, a lot of them are actually working with us in screened, or 140 00:06:59,300 --> 00:07:02,100 a fund of funds that we created to help back emerging Managers 141 00:07:02,100 --> 00:07:04,600 from underrepresented segments. So we can, we can talk about 142 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,800 that later. So definitely not the LPS. 143 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:10,400 I think that the stuff that sort of, we were sort of scratching 144 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,900 our head about was two things. One, there's lots of great 145 00:07:14,900 --> 00:07:18,100 reasons to use other people's money to build your business. 146 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:19,900 If you're going to be multi-generational, I think you 147 00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:22,100 need to do that. You can't be tied to any one GPS 148 00:07:22,100 --> 00:07:25,200 Capital so like. You're investing in things where 149 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,700 you really need to be a, the leader of that round and they 150 00:07:27,700 --> 00:07:28,900 need a lot of money. Like let's say, if you were 151 00:07:28,900 --> 00:07:32,000 starting a climate fund right now, I think you'd really want 152 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,900 outside LPS because the the capital requirements of those 153 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:37,400 companies might be significant, you know, if you can't afford 154 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,000 look there's lots of people. Like we started a little bit 155 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,100 later in our career if you're earlier and you need a fee 156 00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:43,600 structure, right? Like in order to pay the bills, 157 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,700 in order to be able to bring on, you know, younger employees. 158 00:07:46,700 --> 00:07:49,000 Like that's a great reason to have outside money. 159 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,400 If you're risk averse, which I'd say most VCS are and you don't 160 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,100 want to necessarily put your own Capital At Risk in a meaningful 161 00:07:55,100 --> 00:07:57,000 way like, you know, outside, right? 162 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,400 So none of that applies to us and so in that case it's like 163 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,100 it's just not a tool we need the second is and we can talk more 164 00:08:03,100 --> 00:08:06,300 about this. I think there's a, you know, 165 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:09,000 what do you want to call it a prisoner's dilemma right now 166 00:08:09,500 --> 00:08:15,100 where everybody every manager, every VC is being rewarded for 167 00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:18,200 increasing the velocity of their Capital deployment. 168 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,300 Every firm is Raising faster, bigger management fees. 169 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,800 I know you're at You're leaving management fees. 170 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,300 That's really helped. Ease are concerned about this, 171 00:08:28,500 --> 00:08:31,700 but at the same time, the last few years a venture has been 172 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:33,900 Fantastic. Four, Tops of top, endowments 173 00:08:33,900 --> 00:08:36,799 and Foundations, not just paper, markups, real returns. 174 00:08:37,100 --> 00:08:41,100 And so their models say, reinvest this, into those VCS 175 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,799 and in fact, when they're VC's, come back faster, and with 176 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:47,400 bigger and Sequoias, like, hey, you gotta, you know, you gotta 177 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,800 come in, you gotta come in in this big way or like, you know, 178 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,100 by take it or leave it and they're like, okay, we're going 179 00:08:52,100 --> 00:08:53,300 to take it. You've been great for us, right? 180 00:08:53,500 --> 00:08:56,100 Like the amount of money that just keeps flowing into. 181 00:08:56,100 --> 00:08:57,600 The Venture ecosystem is larger and larger. 182 00:08:57,900 --> 00:09:02,700 I think it actually is leading to venture capital, I guess. 183 00:09:02,700 --> 00:09:05,100 Sort of like funding their own continued commoditization of 184 00:09:05,108 --> 00:09:06,800 capital. Like what does it mean? 185 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,100 When just everybody is like 300 400 500 million dollars, you 186 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:13,900 know or billion dollar a um it just becomes this like race to 187 00:09:13,900 --> 00:09:17,300 deploy it, you know? And I think for us it was like 188 00:09:17,300 --> 00:09:21,000 that is not interesting. Like that is a that is a 189 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,300 impediment to us being able to Make measured choices to work 190 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:28,100 with who we want and to be aligned with those Founders, 191 00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:30,500 right? Like look big fun when you say 192 00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:32,800 like, you know was an interesting to you, do you mean 193 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:34,800 that? It also is not to the benefit of 194 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,800 the founders as well. Like is there a real net 195 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,800 negative for the industry? Look I think there's lots of 196 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,400 playbooks, right? I believe that if you have a 197 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,100 very large fund, hundreds, millions billions of dollars. 198 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,400 That's going to implicit lie and explicitly Define what a success 199 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,400 looks like, right? Like, it's just math. 200 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,300 It's just the physics of Adventure. 201 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:57,000 If you have a billion dollar fund, you know, a 400 202 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,900 million-dollar exit, you know, sucks if you have 50 million 203 00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:04,200 dollars into that company, I believe that if you were going 204 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,000 to be a focused early stage investor, you should try to have 205 00:10:08,300 --> 00:10:11,800 the smallest fund possible to run your strategy because I 206 00:10:11,808 --> 00:10:15,000 think it's not about, you know, betting on Lower outcomes. 207 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,400 It's not about playing defense first offense, it's about having 208 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,100 the patience to give that company. 209 00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:24,100 The time to figure out what Of company. 210 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:29,400 It's going to be and then using Capital to help back it not the 211 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,100 race to. Well can you get to the next 212 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:33,000 round and 12 to 18 months, you know? 213 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,900 Or you know it looks like you're not an outlier type of stuff. 214 00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:40,500 Look we have you know multiple multi billion dollar companies, 215 00:10:40,500 --> 00:10:43,100 you know in our fund one, right? Some of those realized some of 216 00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:45,800 those Still on paper you guys are backer and chime Rach. 217 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:51,800 I'm plaid Cruz Gusto, you know, honor a few more, every one of 218 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,400 those companies had a different First one to three years. 219 00:10:55,700 --> 00:10:58,400 Some were straight and up to the right and exited for more than a 220 00:10:58,408 --> 00:11:01,400 billion within that time Crews, some of them were up and down, 221 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,200 you know, chime may be the most valuable of those. 222 00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:06,700 They almost didn't get, you know, two of their funding 223 00:11:06,700 --> 00:11:08,300 rounds done. Like it took longer for that 224 00:11:08,300 --> 00:11:11,800 model to prove itself and work. Neo Banks and fintech wasn't hot 225 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,000 yet, right? So I just don't think you can 226 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:20,500 forecast the eventual success of a company by the slope of the 227 00:11:20,500 --> 00:11:23,300 curve early on, you have to be prepared to work with. 228 00:11:23,500 --> 00:11:27,200 Them to figure out who they are then use Capital to accelerate 229 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,400 it and I think if you the larger your fund, I think the less 230 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,800 patient you are, the more eager you are for write-ups. 231 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,200 The more, you're going to be selective, you know, maybe 232 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,400 adversely selective of companies that are telling you they're 233 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,300 only up into the right. And I just think Founders need 234 00:11:42,300 --> 00:11:44,700 more choices. They need more choices of 235 00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:47,500 different types of capital and so, you know, we want to be one 236 00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:49,500 of those choices. I think that what you just 237 00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:51,800 described sounds great. The reality. 238 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,800 I have a question about though because Once you have a company 239 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,200 and you start raising money, Founders are going to start 240 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,800 raising from people in addition to your firm also, when they 241 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,900 start raising money, say in a series B and they get on that, 242 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:08,500 you know, and they're put on that conveyor belt of. 243 00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:13,000 Okay, now you're expected to raise money in a certain time. 244 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,800 You're supposed to expect you to have a certain kind of exit and 245 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,600 a certain kind of growth like your approach. 246 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:22,900 Seems to me like it would get snowed under by the reality of 247 00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:25,100 the rest of the See market. So how do you still provide that 248 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:29,900 kind of like patience and time for Founders if they're just 249 00:12:29,900 --> 00:12:32,500 going to raise their Series, be from Sequoia, I'm sorry. 250 00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:34,600 Beyond this. Like mad conveyor belt. 251 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:35,700 Absolutely. Well you picked a very 252 00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:37,700 interesting moment because I usually tell Founders that up 253 00:12:37,700 --> 00:12:40,000 until the series be they actually have some optionality 254 00:12:40,300 --> 00:12:43,600 like depending on who they take money from like they have the 255 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,700 ability to sort of say, look, we can take one step backwards to 256 00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:48,800 take to step forward. Hey, this is good, but not 257 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,000 great, let's try something different. 258 00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:52,900 I actually sort of, you know, generally say series B is where 259 00:12:52,900 --> 00:12:54,900 you've given. Yup, most of that optionality 260 00:12:55,100 --> 00:13:00,100 and you start to move towards something that says we now have 261 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:03,100 to both figure out how to keep growing, what we're doing and 262 00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:04,600 what's going to be the next growth driver? 263 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,500 Write that and hopefully in a quote-unquote, perfect world, 264 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,800 the series B is coming at a point at, which the company is 265 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,900 ready for that sort of capital and ready for that sort of 266 00:13:13,908 --> 00:13:17,200 challenge in the fast-paced world of company announced its 267 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,200 series a and that starts to Leading inbound on the series B. 268 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,800 And the terms are great. And you take Capital early that 269 00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:24,900 actually in Risk people sometimes like oh I just raise 270 00:13:24,900 --> 00:13:27,300 fifty million dollars ID risk my company I'm like no way. 271 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:31,300 You just re risked it like you just set the bar you have to get 272 00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:34,200 to even higher and the second thing I'll say is like look we 273 00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:36,900 like I said under the old model where we'd beat around. 274 00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:39,500 I don't want to talk about fun strategy the whole time but like 275 00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:42,900 I want to make sure like I do understand it. 276 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,400 Do you think you'll make more money with this one strategy? 277 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,800 Like it's more an absolute dollars. 278 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,900 Yeah. Then what then like going and 279 00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:51,000 raising a 500 million dollar fund. 280 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,700 Absolutely not right. So I mean maybe You'll have a 281 00:13:53,708 --> 00:13:55,900 better eye are potentially. And who cares? 282 00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:57,800 What's so for, who cares about Ira? 283 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,900 It's unclear. If I want, if I want to maximize 284 00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:02,100 dollars, I might have stayed at Google like, who cares about? 285 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:04,400 Like look, there's two ways to look at this. 286 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,800 I think stuff like there is the I am above a floor in my, like 287 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,800 personal Comfort, which makes you know, which makes things 288 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,200 that I can add to it, you know, great. 289 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:19,600 I can, I can donate more money or like, maybe I can buy a 290 00:14:19,608 --> 00:14:20,900 vacation house, like, that's wonderful. 291 00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:23,800 But those aren't things. I'm going to optimize for You 292 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,000 know, I've been so, you know, lucky fortunate privilege, 293 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,700 whatever that like I'm looking at it as I think if we're good 294 00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:34,300 at it, we can do just fine. And if I'm not good at it, I'm 295 00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:35,500 not. I do I'm not creating myself a 296 00:14:35,508 --> 00:14:39,400 lifestyle that requires, you know, a seven-figure salary 297 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,600 every year or so and so forth. I think, I think wealth, you can 298 00:14:41,608 --> 00:14:44,200 look at his, like a floor or ceiling look so long as I'm 299 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:45,800 above floor. I'm fine. 300 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,900 And I'm going to optimize for other things or like, there's 301 00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:50,800 always a next number to get. I also wrote a blog post saying 302 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,600 we don't talk enough about money, real enough, and Silicon 303 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,000 Valley, right? It's a bunch of hand waving 304 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,000 esac. You're basically saying you've 305 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,900 made enough money. That you that you are wealthy 306 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:02,800 enough that you don't need to optimize for wealth anymore. 307 00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:06,100 I can defer salary, I can defer a salary assume that I'm going 308 00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:09,300 to continue to be a relatively good investor and keep that 309 00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:12,700 upside in lieu of a salary but it's like makes true that if I 310 00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:16,000 make zero money that if I make zero dollars from now on it 311 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,300 would be bad, right? Like yeah if but but but if it's 312 00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:22,300 lumpy and variable, that's okay. Yeah. 313 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:25,000 And maybe you're seeing Bet that they're very rich in Silicon 314 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:26,200 Valley. It's a weird thing. 315 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,600 Like right look, I'm Silicon Valley. 316 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,600 Middle class, right. Like which I winking lie. 317 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,700 Joke is, you know, only like a multi multi-millionaire. 318 00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:36,900 You're not a cent a millionaire, but like shit. 319 00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:41,200 I mean, look, I was at, I was a Google from 2003 to 2012. 320 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,900 If like, if I wasn't a millionaire from that, like I 321 00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:47,300 did something really wrong, but you're sweet. 322 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,900 I mean, you had a 90 million dollar Fund in 2018, right? 323 00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:53,100 And now, you're saying like you're committing to more that 324 00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:55,900 you're To have more than your 1% stake before. 325 00:15:55,900 --> 00:15:58,600 So like you're going to be investing, like a million 326 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,900 dollars are dating, get them order of magnitude. 327 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:03,100 Here, it's we'd have wheat. So the way that I sort of 328 00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:06,100 describe it because we literally don't have a number is Sasha. 329 00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:09,400 And I each like mentally committed, you know, sort of 330 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,300 like a number for the first one or two years and then as we, 331 00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:14,600 which is mostly going to be deployed. 332 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,400 So like I think 80% of our checks are going to be like 333 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,500 hundred K to 500k checks and then I think 20% will be later 334 00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:22,900 or larger. And so if we do like, let's say 335 00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:24,600 we do Ten twelve of those a year. 336 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,700 Like I don't know where it averages out, but you can sort 337 00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:28,100 of like, figure out a low number, right? 338 00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:30,000 A high number, right? Like, that's that's what I 339 00:16:30,008 --> 00:16:32,000 think, you know, that's what I think we've committed. 340 00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:37,000 And then, as we see how that's doing as we hopefully continue 341 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,300 to realize, like we have only seen, you know, we're in the 342 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:43,000 carry-on fund one, and will continue to hopefully, you know, 343 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,700 be able to return dollars to our investors and ourselves as that 344 00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:48,400 portfolio continue to mature. It's still too early to know how 345 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:49,500 funds, two and three are going to be. 346 00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:52,500 I mean we're confident in it. But right, you know our goal is 347 00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:56,900 to Cycle recycled dollars, we see from the previous Homebrew 348 00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:58,900 funds into this new model, right? 349 00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:02,700 So like I'm we are dipping into our savings to get it started 350 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,800 and then as money comes back, there may be richer in the 351 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,099 future given our current portfolio and I am right, I am 352 00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:11,099 right. So, like I am going to be poorer 353 00:17:11,099 --> 00:17:13,300 in the near term then richer again. 354 00:17:13,700 --> 00:17:15,800 That's the goal. Well, that's just investing. 355 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,599 Do you think? I mean look, you're obviously 356 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:20,300 doing this as you're describing it because you feel it is, you 357 00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:23,200 know, fulfilling to your soul as to how you want to. 358 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,599 A raft with these companies, I'd like to stay in the, if there's 359 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:28,099 a 2 by 2, that's like low happiness, happiness, low 360 00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:31,600 success, High success. I much rather be I much rather 361 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,000 focus on the being in the happiness with higher low 362 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,300 success. Then the success with the higher 363 00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:42,200 low happiness and I believe that we can stay in the upper right 364 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,800 quadrant of high happiness, High success. 365 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,100 In this model, I think if we grew to 500 million, we'd still 366 00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:50,800 have a chance to stay in the success, but I believe we'd be 367 00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:53,200 deprecating the happiness, right? 368 00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:55,600 So but I guess I don't like managing people. 369 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,400 I don't like you know having to do a bunch of internal politics. 370 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,500 I don't like having to, you know, hobnob with other 371 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,800 investors and if we had like 300 500 of those like anybody who's 372 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,400 grown their fund over the last few years from, you know the 50 373 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,500 million hundred million to the 300 million, 40 million, 500 374 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:12,300 million, lots of wonderful, wonderful people, their lives 375 00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:15,200 changed, so dramatically and will be changing. 376 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,100 So dramatically especially if the markets get choppy. 377 00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:22,200 Like I have no interest in spending my time and energy like 378 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,900 justifying my A half a billion dollar fund, I just want to work 379 00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:29,300 with Founders, do you think the valley would operate more 380 00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:32,600 successfully or you know with a higher happiness quotient if 381 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,500 more funds operated in the same way that you do because like 382 00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:39,600 this rush to increase fun sizes, it seems like it's fulfilling 383 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,200 you know a need which is that there is money to deploy from 384 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,000 the LPS. It tends to pervert the 385 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,000 incentives. A lot of times of helping to 386 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,400 successfully grow these companies. 387 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,100 You know, you can build a reasonably sized company. 388 00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:53,900 Maybe that's profitable that doesn't need to Raised so many 389 00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:55,700 rounds of funding. But once you know, the 390 00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:57,500 incentives get put in there because of the types of 391 00:18:57,500 --> 00:18:59,700 investors. Everything sort of changes, I 392 00:18:59,708 --> 00:19:00,900 guess? What I'm asking is you think 393 00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:03,400 more fun Should operate like you guys are it's hard question. 394 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,700 Because look what I want to be clear is we're not changing the 395 00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:11,800 bar for an investment like I'm still expecting Venture scale 396 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,600 outcomes as part of our you know quote unquote you know Homebrew 397 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,700 Evergreen portfolio. It just it just so means that 398 00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:22,200 like, if something doesn't, you know, get there, it still might 399 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,400 be meaningful to us. Because it's our own money and 400 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,100 we're keeping 100% of the Returns on Silver. 401 00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:28,500 There's also a lot of amazing work being done in, you know, 402 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,600 being done in climate being done in bioscience, you know, nuclear 403 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,600 fusion that like my model is not helpful for, right? 404 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,200 Like you need people For Better or For Worse, you know, throwing 405 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,600 hundreds of millions of dollars against those things and that's 406 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,700 wonderful. People think that, you know, 407 00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:46,800 venture capital is just like fungible fuel, it's not it's 408 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,300 Rocket Fuel, like it's not car fuel, it's not motorcycle fuel, 409 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:54,600 you know, it's not RV fuel, all Which are like perfectly fine 410 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,500 Vehicles if you wanna if Ike you're piloting that vehicle, 411 00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:00,900 like don't put rocket fuel in your vehicle, like it will 412 00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:04,800 destroy your vehicle, but like if it is a rocket, you know. 413 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,200 It is a great Capital choice but yeah, your repeal that rocket 414 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,000 fuel right? Yeah, yeah, okay. 415 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:15,100 So, do you think that the types of Founders have changed about a 416 00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:19,300 decade ago, basically up until like probably the pandemic. 417 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:24,700 What we thought of as a Silicon Valley entrepreneur Was pretty 418 00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:29,800 much a stereotype even if it wasn't a white guy was somebody 419 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,300 who loves to work all the time. And I hate this phrase but who 420 00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:35,800 loves to Rise & Grind and just wants to go, go, go, go. 421 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,900 Go, but what you're saying is that there's sort of an 422 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:42,400 acceptance of a wider array of funding choices. 423 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,300 You can have different kinds of companies with different kind of 424 00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:46,700 growth speeds. Are we seeing entrepreneurs 425 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:48,300 change? Are we seeing the number of 426 00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:51,900 entrepreneurs went away? Now, that sort of like we've 427 00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:55,100 seen this first class. This like, you know, the sort of 428 00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:59,000 mid teens companies either succeed or not. 429 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,900 We're seeing them all get sold off, you know. 430 00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:03,300 Yeah, we're kind of seeing the one that didn't succeed, really 431 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:04,900 not succeed. So like are we seeing a 432 00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:07,100 different kind of founder? I think I'm an optimist in this 433 00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:11,400 scenario because I think you know, early stage Venture is 434 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,000 probably still underfunded on a global basis, right? 435 00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:16,700 Like it's overfunded periodically in a particular, 436 00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:19,700 ZIP code or area code, you know, or like you know, particular 437 00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:24,200 idea but I think as software driven businesses No Marc 438 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:25,400 Andreessen, says software eats the world. 439 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,200 I sort of flattened that little bit to software enables the 440 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,500 world that feels nicer but the that's why. 441 00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:33,100 And that's why I'm not a billionaire, the nicer side of 442 00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:34,600 Martin exercise. Yeah. 443 00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:37,300 So that leads me to believe that like, wow, maybe what we're 444 00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:39,900 seeing actually is the byproduct of like, you know, industrial 445 00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:42,300 capitalism, becomes technology capitalism, and businesses 446 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:44,300 everywhere are being built with software and, and, you know, so 447 00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:46,700 and so forth. So I actually think there's tons 448 00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:49,100 of opportunity and that is not just because there's tons of 449 00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:52,100 capital available, like it's because there's tons of people 450 00:21:52,100 --> 00:21:55,500 who want to be entrepreneurs. And and as you know, as there 451 00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:59,700 are even in some cases out of desperation as there are fewer 452 00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:02,100 stable long-term job options, you know, maybe that 453 00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:04,200 incrementally continues to push people towards like, well, 454 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,500 stability is actually building my own thing or, you know, or 455 00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:09,100 now, I can solve, I can use software to solve, you know, a 456 00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:11,800 problem for a business that predates, the PC, you know, 457 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,600 agriculture, you know, construction all these 458 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,000 industries that are really embracing software out of both, 459 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:22,500 you know, opportunity necessity. I do believe that creates more 460 00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:25,900 and Foreign entrepreneurs. And I think some of the axioms 461 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:29,300 that are now true, that maybe would have been disputed 10 462 00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:32,000 years ago or just like, you know, sort of cliche, 10 years 463 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,100 ago now, true, or like good businesses. 464 00:22:34,100 --> 00:22:36,900 Can be built anywhere, right? Like, I think that was already 465 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:39,800 happening in the last few years. Sort of proved that geography 466 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,200 itself, you know, may not be sort of a limiting factor people 467 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,600 used to say things like you know, and entrepreneurs can look 468 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,300 like anybody right? And then you know, flash a 469 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:51,500 portfolio page and they didn't look like anybody. 470 00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:54,400 You took a particular one type of then put them into a Gann 471 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,400 with a bunch of like, you know, a i generated images that were 472 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,700 all kind of like, oblong versions of the same person and 473 00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:03,000 like, oh look, but I do think that's changing, maybe not fast 474 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,700 enough but like, I mean, I know in our portfolio. 475 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:08,800 You know, we've always been sort of like, I think 50% or more of 476 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,000 our companies have as at least one female founder, you know, 477 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,100 that type of stuff and so it's happening. 478 00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:15,500 But do you still, you chase archetypes. 479 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,000 I mean, oh, great question. Like these Charles Hudson. 480 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,300 You know, had this tweet, like VC is a weird business if you 481 00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:23,100 look at it as a 2d business check. 482 00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:25,800 Sighs stage, it looks broadly competitive. 483 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,500 If you add a third dimension, preferred founder Ike archetype. 484 00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:33,200 It becomes hyper competitive among small groups of peers and 485 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,800 not competitive at all outside of that group. 486 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,100 And you also wrote sort of about mission-driven Founders and how 487 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:41,600 that wasn't always a great archetype. 488 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,900 So, I guess how do you think about sort of still chasing or 489 00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:48,800 maybe you don't, but chasing founder archetypes, in a world 490 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,700 where you're trying to have more diverse just just just to 491 00:23:51,700 --> 00:23:53,900 correct. I said, Ed, I love 492 00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:54,800 mission-driven. Founders. 493 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,400 Here are some of the places that they get themselves into trouble 494 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,400 As Leaders, okay? And, and the ways that that they 495 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,200 can avoid or address those because I love mr. 496 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,700 Dhanraj, I also wrote something. That basically talks about 497 00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:09,400 consent is my is my job as an investor, a rocket fuel. 498 00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:14,000 Investor is my job to find and win consensus steals, or is it 499 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,300 to find and bet on non-consensus ones? 500 00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,800 And it's funny you ask that question to different people and 501 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,100 some will be like more people than I expected say. 502 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,100 It's a good strategy. It's like what's the hot start 503 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:29,300 up right corner, keep raising. And what do I mean by consensus? 504 00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:32,400 Consensus is, you know, pattern matching archetypes working in 505 00:24:32,408 --> 00:24:35,400 an area that people understand with some social proof, you 506 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,400 know, on the cap table a little bit of momentum. 507 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,900 Those have traded off the charts, right? 508 00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:41,800 So like that's where prices have gone up. 509 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,400 So dramatically, non-consensus startups, people who don't 510 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:46,700 pattern match. Some of the archetypes are 511 00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:49,100 talking about working in industries that aren't yet 512 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:51,300 trendy Adventure or are out of favor in Venture. 513 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:53,100 Those actually are where the quote unquote. 514 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,300 Deals are still meant, you know, Stu still exists. 515 00:24:55,300 --> 00:24:56,600 If you want to be a smaller fund. 516 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,400 Like, otherwise, if you're if you're underwriting to 2 x, 3 x 517 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,000 returns, you know, and you're just trying to win the consensus 518 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,400 deals and they the the outcomes are bigger than ever then. 519 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,100 Fine go and continue to pattern match. 520 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:10,700 I guess. I would say that any archetype 521 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,800 that is both well understood and correct is eventually going to 522 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,300 see the prophet? Multiple back to the investor 523 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:22,600 compressed because that's where the competition occurs. 524 00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:27,900 So, yes, it's sort of reasonable fund strategy to say. 525 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,000 I have an eye of archetypes that are correct, but not yet, widely 526 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,200 understood that I'm going to invest in because that is the 527 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,100 true definition, maybe of contrary it, right? 528 00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:40,400 Like contrarian is not, you know, investing in people who 529 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,300 dropped out of college, right, you know, like maybe it was 530 00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,200 when, you know, Peter and others did whatever but like that's not 531 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,100 contrarian. Now like contrarian is not going 532 00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:53,000 into YC like that, you know, that that that's Harvard. 533 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,500 Now, right, like to have it. So do you have an archetype 534 00:25:56,500 --> 00:25:59,200 these sort of this become more consensus? 535 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,500 Since you started or I have personality traits that I care 536 00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:05,000 about? I have, I have found her traits 537 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,600 that I care about maybe more than the average Venture 538 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,300 investor because a, they're matched to the type of people, I 539 00:26:12,308 --> 00:26:14,800 enjoy getting up and, and working on behalf of putting 540 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,300 sweat and and reputation behind and agenda dollars and two. 541 00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:21,700 I think they were sort of the trade-offs that come with those 542 00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:23,100 are things that I think we can help solve. 543 00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:27,100 You know, help them versus, you know, risks that, I'm not that 544 00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:28,500 I'm not good at the risking, right? 545 00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:32,500 And so, what I've always said is like I'm happy to have teams 546 00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:35,400 that don't have a technical founder, but have, you know, 547 00:26:35,900 --> 00:26:37,200 technology awareness. They're going to bring the 548 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,600 technology in house but it's not like the two Founders are 549 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,300 technologists. Now we have plenty that are 550 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:43,000 right. So it's not a it's not a 551 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,400 bifurcation is just hey I'll look at those. 552 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,900 How about I respond to? I respond to every cold email, 553 00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:50,800 right? Like I don't care about warm 554 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,000 introductions and networks as an archetype. 555 00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:56,700 I think a lot of the best folks, you know, are outside of 556 00:26:56,700 --> 00:26:58,100 networks. Now, that doesn't mean that they 557 00:26:58,100 --> 00:27:01,600 like, you don't have to prove that they can do something 558 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,000 interesting. I, those cold emails are best 559 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,000 when they include, like a link to a demo of something. 560 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,600 They built or product that a customer is ready using rather 561 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,500 than just like, you know, hey fun me and I'll build this, 562 00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:15,600 right? I am perfectly happy to back 563 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,100 people who don't have a traditional educational pedigree 564 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,400 in a so they like one of one of the examples in our first fund 565 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,400 that like will stick with The longest and maybe in some ways, 566 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,200 I'm proudest of was in the construction space, a company 567 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,100 called building connected to Founders again, not part of the 568 00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:34,400 network, not Stanford, not Facebook, cold email, we LED 569 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,900 their seed round. I sat on their board, they 570 00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:40,600 raised up to a b round, they had a growth term sheet on the table 571 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,800 and also a 300 million dollar acquisition from Autodesk for a 572 00:27:43,808 --> 00:27:45,700 bunch of reasons. You know, we were perfectly 573 00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:48,600 happy to support them going on. I think there are scenarios 574 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,200 where it could have been a multibillion-dollar business, 575 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,700 but I think they correctly for themselves decided did that 576 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,700 selling to Autodesk was the right thing because they haven't 577 00:27:56,700 --> 00:27:58,900 because I didn't over capitalize the company and because they 578 00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:02,200 were good investors around the table that was meaningful for 579 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,400 every investor it returned half our fund because you know, got 580 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,900 it got in early concentrate, early stage, it changed the 581 00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:10,600 founders lies multi-generationally. 582 00:28:10,700 --> 00:28:13,500 You know, one of them started a fan of started a foundation. 583 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,600 A scholarship at his high school to send people to college came 584 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,200 from an area where, you know, college wasn't the default. 585 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,700 The Next Step type of stuff he benefited from something like 586 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:24,300 that prior early. Chloe is all made out, you know, 587 00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:26,900 well because the company had over diluted one of the founders 588 00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:29,000 did a year at Autodesk, handcuffs are off, you know, 589 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,800 went and now a CEO of another thing. 590 00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:32,800 The other one is still there. Leading a thousand people, 591 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,800 right? I am so and, you know, look, I 592 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,700 have a lot of problems with the way, our governments working 593 00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:39,900 different types of things in equality, but like that, for me, 594 00:28:39,900 --> 00:28:40,600 was a heck. Yeah. 595 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,000 Capitalism moment, right? Because where else, can a guy 596 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,200 who worked in construction for a few years and his technical 597 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,400 buddy? You know, decide that they're 598 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,300 going to step away from jobs? Not because they have trust 599 00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:52,600 funds and not but because they like have an urgent problem, 600 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,600 they want to solve. Solve for an industry that, you 601 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,200 know, has been ignored by people, you know, coming out of, 602 00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,700 you know, maybe some more traditional colleges 603 00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:03,000 universities or even worse, targeted, just because it's big 604 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,700 and quote-unquote broken. And the sales people can go 605 00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:07,400 interface with the construction folks. 606 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,000 We don't want to like we're not going to get our hands dirty. 607 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,900 Like this is a guy who's like hands, you know, grew up hands 608 00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:14,800 dirty and was able to build something that the industry 609 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,400 wanted that you know was not a hundred billion dollar, actually 610 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,800 a billion dollar acquisition by somebody that was later written 611 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,600 down to zero because it was a The pan. 612 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,500 Like, you know, it's been doing great for Autodesk and were able 613 00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:30,400 to take economics away from it. That like, you know, now like 614 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,900 fundamentally, they would not have been able to do in anything 615 00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:37,200 other than like, entrepreneurs. I'm and by the way, because we 616 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,700 take a concentrated, early-stage reproach. 617 00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:41,400 Like I said, I can actually have it be a home run for us, you 618 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,400 know, not just a single double like, uh, okay. 619 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,800 We got one X our money back, you know, I guess we'll make it 620 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,700 somewhere else, right? Like, I love those, I would 621 00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:52,800 never give up the opportunity ability. 622 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:55,600 To like support and back, those Founders, you know, you know, 623 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,600 just to sort of, you know, Chase the chase. 624 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,000 What everybody else is doing speechless. 625 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:11,100 I love it because that's like the such a much. 626 00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:14,100 Oh, I'm sorry for the industry. Oh yeah, let's talk about this, 627 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,100 you know. So I have like I have companies 628 00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:19,600 in the portfolio that thankfully now like are starting to get 629 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,000 coverage, but like any time people want to be like, oh, hey, 630 00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:24,800 Meet. Let me, let me write a takedown 631 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,300 of this, like, halfway interesting company orders. 632 00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:29,700 I get the most feedback on. We're not necessarily negative 633 00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:33,800 stories, you know, I wrote a story about a school, like a 634 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,100 coding Academy, that just very unusually accepted students who 635 00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:39,900 didn't have a lot of money who didn't have any background in 636 00:30:39,908 --> 00:30:45,300 Tech and the story itself. Go, I had tons of incoming. 637 00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:46,500 First of all, people who wanted to fix. 638 00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:50,700 Also, there are also people who were not business, you know, New 639 00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:53,200 York Times, Like business section readers, who are happy P 640 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,700 to hear that. Something was happening in 641 00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:57,500 Silicon Valley, that wasn't atrocious, and then third of 642 00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:59,000 all. I wrote that story years ago and 643 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,200 I just got a note from somebody saying, oh, I remember this 644 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,000 person, you wrote about he was living in his car while he was 645 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,300 going to the school. He went to Hobart and I don't, I 646 00:31:08,308 --> 00:31:10,900 mean, he was homeless, when he went yeah Burton and he was the 647 00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:13,300 leader of the story, he has an extraordinary job. 648 00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:15,700 Now, he works, you know, for so great. 649 00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:18,100 I can't say which three-letter agency, but he's doing very 650 00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:19,100 well. Right? 651 00:31:19,100 --> 00:31:21,700 Look, I love it. That's like I do think we love 652 00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:22,800 those stories. I don't want it. 653 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:25,600 People think we are look how I'm not a hey Tech doesn't tell 654 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,200 enough Goods you know protect price doesn't do enough. 655 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,900 Good stories you only one but I'm also a whole truth to power 656 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,500 hold true that repair. Right? 657 00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:34,300 Like, you know, I think the biggest challenge our industry 658 00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:37,100 faces, is it sees? Its it continues to see itself 659 00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:40,500 as an underdog when it's actually the railroad Barons, 660 00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:42,000 right? Like kind of goes back to that 661 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,700 idea that like nobody in Silicon Valley wants to admit just how 662 00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:46,700 rich they are. It's like they kind of want to 663 00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:51,200 admit it by being like hey I sit Courtside or I do this or I have 664 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:52,900 this crazy house but they don't want to like be 0. 665 00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:56,000 Open about the fact that they have basically fuck you money 666 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,600 and they can live almost completely outside of well, even 667 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,400 outside of the democratic support, that it was, or that, 668 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,500 it was somehow, our, it was its Noble, like, it's Noble money. 669 00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,600 That's how that money is more noble than, right then other 670 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,300 because well, but if it went to like, you know, a teacher's 671 00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:11,600 right? Well, it's the same way. 672 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,800 I think I'll write founder is getting nostalgic about the 673 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,000 early days or times where they were just hanging out in a small 674 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,600 office, just trying to make it work because you know, obviously 675 00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:25,500 their precarious relatively But you are able to focus more on 676 00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:28,200 the mission, what you think permission is rather than, you 677 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,000 know, trying to please your investors. 678 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,700 And I feel like, you know, the same thing kind of comes up and 679 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,900 criticizing their critical Tech stories. 680 00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:37,500 It just like, weren't we having so much fun when it was all 681 00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:39,600 about, you know, highlighting funding announcements. 682 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,100 Yeah, I'd say the two things I had the two things I do. 683 00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:47,100 Wish when it comes to reporting, is I do wish that and I think 684 00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:50,000 the, I think the longer somebody's in it either, they 685 00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:53,400 understand this or they actually move further away from It, I 686 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,000 wish folks could actually embed within. 687 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,600 I wish folks had done a start-up or could embed in with a 688 00:32:57,608 --> 00:33:03,100 start-up because often what sort of like perceived as a specific 689 00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:04,900 choice. You know, is sort of more like 690 00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:06,800 at at worst an unintended consequence. 691 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,100 I would love by the way. So work out of any New York City 692 00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:13,000 startups office for a month. I work out of my home, so I'm 693 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,000 happy, right? Have you have you asked, have 694 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,300 you put that out there? All right. 695 00:33:17,300 --> 00:33:19,800 Well, I'm throwing this out on the podcast. 696 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,800 Yeah, we were on a start-up with the information, but but I would 697 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,600 Right. And look at it but the people I 698 00:33:25,608 --> 00:33:27,100 would like to do that. Kind of story. 699 00:33:27,100 --> 00:33:29,800 I mean I would love to I would also argue that the three of us 700 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,800 did work out of a startup. I mean we actually do you think 701 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,400 we're going to do two things? This, when this podcast drops we 702 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,800 are going to find Erica started. Yes. 703 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,200 Second. Ya what I'll say about? 704 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,300 Kate about the information is I think Jessica one of Jessica's 705 00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:49,800 early columns was like what? I Now understand, you know, 706 00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:51,800 working at a startup that I didn't understand when I was 707 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,000 covering that right? Look just Something like like 708 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,400 sometimes like, oh I used to take every product, you know, 709 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,900 get a cancelled as like, oh, this is so, you know, this is 710 00:33:58,900 --> 00:33:59,900 smoke. I gotta find the fire. 711 00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:02,300 Something must be really wrong and like, I've had to now, I've 712 00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:04,700 had to cancel products sometimes just because, like, you got to 713 00:34:04,708 --> 00:34:06,100 focus or this or that, it's right. 714 00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:08,600 Not, you know, it's not scanned, you know, like a few things. 715 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,500 And, but obviously also, you know, doesn't mean that like 716 00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:13,600 every sort of perfect and should be treated with kid gloves and 717 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,000 like, you know, that type of stuff, you know, I look back at 718 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,500 work, I don't know if you want to get to the YouTube stuff, but 719 00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:23,100 like, I look back at YouTube and like there were things that I 720 00:34:23,107 --> 00:34:26,699 did not recognize, you know, they were, they were second 721 00:34:26,699 --> 00:34:29,800 order effects that some of the choices we made that were not 722 00:34:29,900 --> 00:34:34,300 obvious to me at the time. I don't know if any sort of 723 00:34:34,300 --> 00:34:37,400 quote unquote process changes would have made them more 724 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,900 apparent to me. I do firmly believe, and we 725 00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:42,500 tried as best. We could to have a product team 726 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,900 that looked more like our user base, then Google demographics, 727 00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:48,500 let's say. But I also believe that like, 728 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,100 actually, the way to sort of, you know, anticipate unintended 729 00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:55,600 consequences would say. Say is in team composition to 730 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,900 demographics that like the more diverse more diversity 731 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,900 Geographic, you know, class-based ethnicity, whatever. 732 00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:07,900 The right the right facing is that you have on your product 733 00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:11,000 team and the more that those people are out to speak and 734 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,300 bring their experience to that. I think the more likely you are 735 00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:18,700 to sort of debate anticipate and properly like you know, judge 736 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,900 how your product is going to be used, right? 737 00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:22,700 Like the everything is gamergate, you know, now, right? 738 00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:24,500 Like it, If you didn't, if you don't know what that is, or you 739 00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:26,000 didn't experience it or so and so forth. 740 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,400 Like you're building a social product. 741 00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:29,900 You should probably understand right as your, as your worldview 742 00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:33,900 evolved or I, you know, I know you some but not I think of you, 743 00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:36,400 you know, from your Twitter presence and like you're like 744 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,700 sort of good liberal in Tech world, right? 745 00:35:40,700 --> 00:35:42,700 Or did you see yourself that way or like? 746 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,900 I feel like there's sort of a lot of night might not my exact 747 00:35:45,900 --> 00:35:47,700 tagline. No, you wouldn't. 748 00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:52,300 Would you yesterday, I sort of like to be. 749 00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:54,000 See. I thought Funniest TV series. 750 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:59,600 What that's all about that. That was the threat. 751 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:00,500 I was the Lobos. Yeah. 752 00:36:00,500 --> 00:36:03,600 And you just a great your often, like I feel like, you know, 753 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,900 there's this a lot of these Tech platforms had sort of a very 754 00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:10,800 like sort of, you know, Free Speech was the by word. 755 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,200 It like, read it back in the day. 756 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,700 There was such like that long period where there was like, no, 757 00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:17,600 you know, we don't want to moderate, we want to have an 758 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,400 open platform. I mean, YouTube is still like 759 00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:25,000 pretty loose. But then, you know, I feel like, 760 00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:29,000 yeah, it's been sort of the the mainstream Democrats who have 761 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,800 been much more pronounced but I don't, I don't know how to pull 762 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,400 it. I mean, obviously, I tend to 763 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,800 vote Democrat but like, I don't know how to, I don't know how to 764 00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:37,600 counter. I don't know how to categorize 765 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,400 myself in sort of the same way that you did. 766 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,500 But here's what I'll say about you too, and, and those sort of 767 00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:44,900 close supporter of AOC weren't you. 768 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,500 I remember seeing you sweet positively. 769 00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:49,600 Yeah, I helped. Yeah, I saw China and our spouse 770 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:50,800 right? Somehow crazy. 771 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,700 That do the first. We'll look, I think Even outside 772 00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:57,200 of whether you agree with all her policies that like she is an 773 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,000 archetype for a type of leader that we need to see unlike you 774 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,700 know, both sides of the aisle and also I grew up in Queens. 775 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:10,600 718 born 516 raised. So I was at YouTube from 2007 to 776 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,100 end of 2012. These people said, when you 777 00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:14,500 leave Google, I'm like, well, my heart kind of left in middle of 778 00:37:14,508 --> 00:37:18,300 2011, my daughter and a 2012, but but it was great. 779 00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:21,000 I was, so I was the first product lead post-acquisition 780 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,700 working, you know, for Chad and Stuff like that. 781 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,800 I think there were a few things. I believed about YouTube, then 782 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,500 that were atypical. And some of them have become 783 00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:34,400 more normalized. Some of them are still debatable 784 00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:37,600 and I think the things I believed and, and tried to build 785 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,300 it to the product tried to build into the team were, that we are 786 00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:45,300 not quote unquote and agnostic platform, right? 787 00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:47,500 That like the oh, well, we're not immediately. 788 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,200 I wouldn't call some Media company either. 789 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,200 But like if you have terms and conditions and Community 790 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,500 standards, That are anything beyond just what is minimally 791 00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:58,200 legally required? You are already making editorial 792 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,000 decisions, you're making decisions about what sort of 793 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,100 content you want on the platform. 794 00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:04,800 So on so forth to say that like you're neutral is is not true. 795 00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:08,200 And I think that's fine. I also tried to build out with a 796 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,700 great policy team build out policies that were 797 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,700 principle-based and then we could evolve the definitions 798 00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:18,400 because it's very hard to do the reverse. 799 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,800 It's very hard to have enough like case law to where you can 800 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,700 perfectly right. You know what? 801 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,700 There's always gonna be gray area and I think the clearest 802 00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:28,400 thing is like, here is the type of service we are trying to 803 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,700 build. You know, if you do things that 804 00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:33,200 like defaults are these boundaries, like there might be 805 00:38:33,207 --> 00:38:35,700 consequences, here are some examples of that, but people are 806 00:38:35,700 --> 00:38:37,200 going to come up with new examples, right? 807 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,900 And you can't wait a year to then update it, like, you have 808 00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:41,800 to try to address it in the moment. 809 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,900 So I think it's okay to actually like create some expectations of 810 00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:49,600 how people of what's okay. And then, you know, reviewing of 811 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,500 all those over time and sometimes it's okay to be wrong, 812 00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:53,400 like we were wrong, about some stuff like What? 813 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,500 I'll tell you one second and the third that I've always believed 814 00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:58,400 in because I was at Second Life and AdSense before is, I've 815 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,500 always believed and this Chad believe this too. 816 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,000 I mean thankfully because I couldn't have got it done on my 817 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,500 own was that you know, likes and retweets are not payment and 818 00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:10,900 that creators, you know, deserve payment for their creativity and 819 00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:13,200 audience. And that if you are not doing 820 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,100 that, as a platform at the best case scenario, you're leaving a 821 00:39:17,107 --> 00:39:19,200 strategic hole. Open for somebody else to do it. 822 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,800 Worst case scenario. You are exploiting people and I 823 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,400 never Ever wanted to exploit. I never wanted to work for a 824 00:39:25,408 --> 00:39:28,300 company that exploited people. So Katie just real quick. 825 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,200 We always had the question of like, policy made in the Bay 826 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,000 Area. You know, sometimes in the East 827 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,100 Bay, depending upon where we were sitting like is East Bay 828 00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:40,300 policies, you know, like good for the world, right? 829 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,000 And so, for example, there were certainly geographies especially 830 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,200 ones that we didn't operate in, but we're available in that 831 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,200 sometimes asked you to do things to content. 832 00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:53,600 Mostly take down that we did not abide by because we We weren't 833 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,600 commercial operating their, their country, we didn't believe 834 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,000 in those principles, you know, it was more towards the Free 835 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,100 Speech, but when we were operating in a country, we 836 00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:03,200 really did have to understand. Like, okay, we've got people on 837 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:04,900 the ground, their employees on the ground. 838 00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:08,000 Like, if we're going to be operate, commercially in this 839 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,400 country, what is right, what is wrong? 840 00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:11,700 I'm gonna, I'm probably gonna get a load of this wrong. 841 00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:15,400 Apologies to any Thai people but like it's, it's, it's it's out 842 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,600 of humility. If I remember correctly, like 843 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,400 there was, you know, this thing in Thailand, where the 844 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,300 government asked us to take down some videos that were I'm like 845 00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:28,500 photoshop's of you know like bare feet on the heads of very 846 00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:31,800 influential or maybe even religious you know our political 847 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,300 tie figures to us. That looks like you know, know 848 00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:38,200 where I could take this down. Like that's like free speech and 849 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,500 it's silly but then you'd sort of start to see those videos 850 00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:43,100 getting flagged and they weren't getting flag from like 851 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,000 government IPS like they're getting Flack from actual users 852 00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:47,800 and you'd look for the reasons that are like. 853 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,400 This is actually like this actually is offensive like you 854 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,100 know to us and I don't want to Go vagina was like, well, now we 855 00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:57,200 understand that people but like there was enough Grassroots and 856 00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,000 so we didn't take it down but we did put up an interest. 857 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,100 Yeah. We've created a new type of 858 00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:03,100 interstitial that was basically like this complies with our 859 00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:05,400 terms of service but users in your country find it 860 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,500 objectionable for the following like you know category since and 861 00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:10,000 people could click through and so like we want. 862 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,100 But trust me like the first thing you know that we thought 863 00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:15,800 was like skepticism and dismissiveness, right? 864 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:19,000 And we learned like no like if you're going to have a global 865 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,400 footprint Global responsibilities, you have to 866 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,300 sometimes realize that Your first assumptions or what you're 867 00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:27,900 comfortable with or what you're uncomfortable with does not 868 00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:31,200 match you know, your community where they are. 869 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,900 And so make those tough decisions, right? 870 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,600 Thigh like the 60 philosophically. 871 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,700 I'm so curious about this because I think the biggest tech 872 00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:42,300 companies have decided that in general. 873 00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:46,000 What they'll do is they'll comply with the laws and in some 874 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,900 ways, the Norms of the companies in which they operate. 875 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,500 But at what point does a big tech company have to decide. 876 00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:54,900 Okay. Okay, we cannot really comply 877 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,300 with either of those things, it doesn't work for us. 878 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,000 And does that mean that the idea of a global tech company, 879 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,400 especially consumer-facing is something? 880 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,500 We'll see chipped away out over the next few years. 881 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,700 My answer is like, I don't know, I think that there is a 882 00:42:11,707 --> 00:42:17,000 perfectly viable path that basically says, we are going to 883 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,900 operate on each country's laws and there is a set of red lines. 884 00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:24,800 There's a minimum Set of like yeah of things that need to be 885 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,500 in place for us to operate in that country. 886 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,600 So like some some set of choices if there's a bunch of different 887 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,400 toggles like some combination of those toggles based on Country 888 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,000 law mean, that we are going to forego operating in that 889 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,700 country. And that will be more granular 890 00:42:39,900 --> 00:42:42,500 and broader than just the China issue, right? 891 00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:44,700 Like, historically this has been, like the China issue. 892 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,400 Is it worth trying to operate there because, you know, you can 893 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,000 change from within and it's a big, you know, big Market 894 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,600 opportunity, or is it a quagmire? 895 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,600 Are you have to compromise too many of your stated values 896 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,300 around user privacy or, you know, freedom of expression, you 897 00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:02,200 know, and information to, you know, to spin up your service. 898 00:43:02,500 --> 00:43:04,600 So I do think we're going to, hopefully see you. 899 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,900 No more companies being deliberate about what those 900 00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:13,200 choices are and maybe denying their services to countries that 901 00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:15,100 seem to be not good actors. Right. 902 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,100 But I don't know. Like this is, this is, this was 903 00:43:17,100 --> 00:43:19,400 a tough one. But anyone who builds Global 904 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,100 Services like has to has to think through this obviously, 905 00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:24,600 right? It was like, Wow but it's, you 906 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,600 know. But again, like I don't feel bad 907 00:43:26,700 --> 00:43:29,300 for companies doing with this. Like this is, you have trillion 908 00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:32,600 dollar market caps, like, you have, you know, Executives who, 909 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:34,400 you know, this is what you signed up for, right? 910 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:35,900 Like, but that's I mean, that's the thing. 911 00:43:35,900 --> 00:43:38,400 I mean, the negotiation at some point isn't really so much 912 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,400 between the user. You know, the companies and the 913 00:43:40,408 --> 00:43:42,800 government sits between the companies and their investors 914 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,500 because the expectation is that you do operate in all these 915 00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:48,400 countries because you need to continue grow, you know, can you 916 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,000 grow your user base and extracting? 917 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,100 What, you know, this is actually that users I would, I To take a 918 00:43:53,107 --> 00:43:55,600 set of notes on things, I needed to accomplish during this 919 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,100 podcast, and I forgot to do that. 920 00:43:57,100 --> 00:43:59,600 But now you just prompted me because we're audio not video. 921 00:43:59,700 --> 00:44:03,600 Usually, during video podcast, I change my hat and Hoodie a few 922 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,500 times to different to promote different portfolio companies. 923 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,800 Okay, you know, you're supporting so I figure I'm gonna 924 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,900 have to do that audio audio wise. 925 00:44:11,300 --> 00:44:13,300 So I happen to be a personal investor in a company called 926 00:44:13,300 --> 00:44:16,600 long-term Stock Exchange that are gree started, which is about 927 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:23,200 giving companies a chance to list in a place where you And 928 00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:28,100 bias towards maybe even create voting struggle, sort of put 929 00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:32,000 proposals together that we reward investors who are going 930 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,100 to be long-term holders and allow you to think long term, 931 00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:36,800 right? Still, very nascent. 932 00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:39,500 There's some companies that have pledged, you know, to be on 933 00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:41,500 their a sauna. So and so forth but like I am 934 00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:45,800 actually hopeful that there is going to be investor structures 935 00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:49,200 that better match against like you know and not just be corpse 936 00:44:49,300 --> 00:44:51,300 that better match against you know sort of the types of 937 00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:53,300 trade-offs. You're talking about Tom I'll 938 00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:55,300 tell you one thing. So I always this is I always say 939 00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:57,900 the sort of jokingly but I also kind of not joking. 940 00:44:58,500 --> 00:45:02,500 So like my solution to this issue of like what Facebook yo 941 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,000 what truth is being discussed on Facebook and like you know, it's 942 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,000 safe in Menlo Park but not great in Sri Lanka. 943 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,000 We're were the sort of you know quote unquote, Facebook me, Adam 944 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,700 are right, wasn't it? Yeah. 945 00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:16,500 So here's my joke, not joke, kind of thing. 946 00:45:16,900 --> 00:45:19,000 Like take the Facebook's executive team or even better 947 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,500 like board of directors, it is going to change, you know, 948 00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:23,400 annually. But like Shirley Jackson The 949 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,000 Lottery like once a year. One of you is going to have to 950 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,300 make your major life choices based upon what the average 951 00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:33,800 Facebook user believes, right? So if the average Facebook user 952 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,500 believes that vaccinations, you know, are fake, because that's 953 00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:40,500 what's been spread, like, you can't get vaccinated or let you 954 00:45:40,508 --> 00:45:43,400 know, basically how do we like, you know, it's obvious joke but 955 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,800 like it's the sort of the question about when, when 956 00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:49,600 leadership of these companies essentially are in an Elysium 957 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:54,200 that is so distanced from the The downstream impacts and 958 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:59,100 downstream consequences that their products are are 959 00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:01,700 influencing these. It's almost as if they had to 960 00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:03,300 live under it. They would want a nudge. 961 00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:06,700 These people to have used that they found palatable or not 962 00:46:06,700 --> 00:46:10,100 palatable that lower like the more amenable to their 963 00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:11,500 lifestyle. I mean, you see that three 964 00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:14,700 people to dislike downplay the ideas and not allow them to be 965 00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:18,400 the most prominent ideas, but it's an interesting Twist on. 966 00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:21,500 You're trying to make something that normally is position is 967 00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:26,300 elitist that the I would try to direct how people think and 968 00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:28,900 you're sort of saying well if the elites want to live under a 969 00:46:28,900 --> 00:46:32,800 the world they're creating they should have to have to suffer it 970 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,200 or is that just what you think? That's sort of like the Khan 971 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:42,000 Academy. Somebody's a writer to me. 972 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,600 It's like the idea that Ben Shapiro and like Dom, Boingo, or 973 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,400 whatever, I don't even know, but like these people are like it. 974 00:46:49,400 --> 00:47:05,500 Is that In the world to me, if you would 975 00:47:05,500 --> 00:47:08,600 agree with this would be is evidence enough that something 976 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,200 is broken with the platform. Why would you want to create a 977 00:47:11,207 --> 00:47:15,200 product where the thing you're building audience for is like 978 00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:17,000 Ben Shapiro? I don't know. 979 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,000 I feel like that's sort of a. Problem. 980 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,400 Like, just the same way, I wouldn't want to run Fox News. 981 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,000 Have Tucker Carlson me by my banner show. 982 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,300 I wouldn't want to own a tech company and have like these 983 00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:31,000 really dumb. Conte, conservative, content, 984 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,100 creators, be sort of the top output at that, I'm putting out, 985 00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:37,800 or do you have what he would unique Jew hate. 986 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,100 You hate 43% of America. Is that what you're saying 987 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:41,200 there? He does. 988 00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:44,300 Yeah, I grew up in another area so it is right. 989 00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:48,500 Yeah yeah. I mean they're yeah enjoy Rush 990 00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:52,200 Soros dollars Rush Limbaugh is like was terrible. 991 00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:55,400 And you know people are very responsive, you know, they 992 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,600 listen to what what you put out and that's why it matters, what 993 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,400 Elites like pump out to the world. 994 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,100 And I think I just I think the distance between you know the 995 00:48:04,100 --> 00:48:07,500 experience of the quote-unquote average person and the 1% is 996 00:48:07,500 --> 00:48:09,800 like you know the quote the greatest threat to stability, 997 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,000 right. And the fact that I can look, I 998 00:48:11,008 --> 00:48:14,500 don't know the guy but I believe that, you know, there are people 999 00:48:14,500 --> 00:48:17,600 like Peter teal who like, you know, sort of are calculating 1000 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,900 enough that like look the chaos ladder is going to benefit me 1001 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,500 and if things go to shitty I have Of money to insulate 1002 00:48:23,500 --> 00:48:27,100 myself, the chaos, that, you know, Bannon created, right, 1003 00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:30,200 like and maybe that's maybe that's really, you know, maybe 1004 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:34,200 he's playing 7D chest for a better brighter, glorious shared 1005 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,200 future. But like, that's what I worry 1006 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:37,800 about. Like I worry about when some of 1007 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,400 our, some of our billionaires, you know, can sort of insulate 1008 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,700 themselves from the challenges of the world, and I have nothing 1009 00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:48,000 against billionaires in general. So, I liked, I liked when our 1010 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,300 Industries billionaires were just awkward and not assholes, 1011 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,000 and they were just kind of like, Nerdy trying to figure out what 1012 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,100 to do with their money, going to basketball games and getting 1013 00:48:58,100 --> 00:49:01,200 awkwardly video. Dancing around, it's fine. 1014 00:49:01,500 --> 00:49:03,200 Yeah, I know. I look, how do I think it's a, 1015 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,300 it's a fascinating point in in Agra and I see, you know, I 1016 00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:08,700 during that during the back and forth. 1017 00:49:08,700 --> 00:49:10,700 I mentioned this. But like, you know, covering 1018 00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:13,700 Uber there was always, I don't know if Travis did this Eric 1019 00:49:13,700 --> 00:49:16,500 Kidd, you can tell me, but, you know, dhara makes deliveries 1020 00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:18,500 from time to time, you know, because he wants to see what the 1021 00:49:18,500 --> 00:49:21,000 average user you know. Deliver person. 1022 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,600 It's like and you know, maybe at the That kind of changes some of 1023 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,600 the benefits that they give them or subsidies or things like 1024 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,900 that. But you know, it's do you think 1025 00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:32,400 there would be a substantive difference? 1026 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,900 If, you know, Susan with Jackie was in a country that has been 1027 00:49:35,900 --> 00:49:38,900 overrun by misinformation YouTube's. 1028 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,100 And the, I mean, maybe she has been, I don't know. 1029 00:49:42,100 --> 00:49:45,700 I used to spend time in the review, the flag video review, 1030 00:49:45,700 --> 00:49:48,000 Q, fairly like, I don't remember if I did it. 1031 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,500 Monthly or quarterly, I don't like overstate it, but I would 1032 00:49:50,500 --> 00:49:56,400 do that because I felt like it. It was unfair to ask, you know, 1033 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,100 I don't care if they're in contractors employees. 1034 00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:02,200 Would it was unfair to ask you human beings to, you know, look 1035 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,200 at flag videos which we know could have some very bad things 1036 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,600 in it. If the product managers and if 1037 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,300 the leadership only saw it as statistics on a piece of paper 1038 00:50:12,300 --> 00:50:15,100 or like, you know, when people are when you get the stuff 1039 00:50:15,100 --> 00:50:18,800 that's like, oh well, you know, Facebook says, 99.8% of, you 1040 00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,400 know of post, didn't contain beheadings, you know, you're 1041 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,900 like wait, hold on. Like point two percent like 1042 00:50:23,900 --> 00:50:26,100 that, still hundreds of thousands of be Hetty. 1043 00:50:26,100 --> 00:50:29,200 Oh, watch that live streams of and not to pick on them because 1044 00:50:29,300 --> 00:50:32,100 you know, this was this was a YouTube thing and I saw, you 1045 00:50:32,100 --> 00:50:34,800 know, I saw just about everything but child porn and 1046 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,300 that's because child porn is actually pretty easy to filter 1047 00:50:38,300 --> 00:50:41,600 out algorithmically because it's one of the areas where like 1048 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,700 content fingerprinting is shared amongst companies and so on. 1049 00:50:44,707 --> 00:50:47,800 So worth it does mean it's probably just means it just 1050 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,300 means like it actually didn't get to the, to the but I saw be. 1051 00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:53,500 I saw, I saw, you know, I has beheadings. 1052 00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:56,600 I saw all different types of graphic poor. 1053 00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:01,600 I you know, and like having to watch you having to see the 1054 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:06,100 things you cannot unsee. I do think creates a different 1055 00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:09,100 visceral impact upon the leadership of these companies, 1056 00:51:09,300 --> 00:51:14,100 than just seeing it in text as a summary report and trying to, 1057 00:51:14,100 --> 00:51:16,500 you know, sort of debate. Well, you know, should we put 1058 00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:19,300 resources on making that number go up or down, you know, or 1059 00:51:19,300 --> 00:51:21,000 should we put more money on Advertising? 1060 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,600 You know, right away, that matters. 1061 00:51:22,900 --> 00:51:26,900 I'm a social media Elite worried about, you know, having to live 1062 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,700 under the ideology that I'm programming into the masses. 1063 00:51:30,700 --> 00:51:34,700 Like what, what is the lever that I pull to make sure that I 1064 00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:37,000 can still take the vaccine? Or, I don't know. 1065 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,500 Do you, what do you think? I mean, there are certain moves 1066 00:51:39,500 --> 00:51:44,200 that would seem to bias things just politically versus see more 1067 00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,500 neutral, or, I don't know. Do you have like a prescription? 1068 00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:52,300 The first is diverse teams anticipate, you know, sort of 1069 00:51:52,300 --> 00:51:55,200 the outlier use cases, so have diverse teams. 1070 00:51:55,300 --> 00:51:58,400 The second is the senior Executives at social media 1071 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,600 companies should be exposed to and occasionally do the job of 1072 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,700 the lowest level folks who are often the content reviewers. 1073 00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:09,100 If you are just seeing, you know, sort of reports and 1074 00:52:09,100 --> 00:52:11,800 statistics and not actually understanding what people are 1075 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,800 dealing with. You know, I think you lose 1076 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,400 empathy for it. The third is that we have to 1077 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,700 maybe come to grips that. In some of these companies that 1078 00:52:18,700 --> 00:52:20,600 they're not software. Margin companies, write 1079 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,400 software, margin means, high margin He used to make a CD-ROM 1080 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,600 of a, you know, of a Excel, you know, whatever. 1081 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,700 Distributed in shrink wrap boxes and there are no marginal costs 1082 00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:34,500 of, you know, each new each new box outside of the cardboard and 1083 00:52:34,500 --> 00:52:36,800 that's what our that's what investors and Wall Street, you 1084 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,600 know, sort of demand. And so as a result in these 1085 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,500 sorts of services trust and safety is staffed. 1086 00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:45,900 As a cost center, it's a drain on margin and so you want to 1087 00:52:45,900 --> 00:52:50,800 minimize trust and safety minimize can customer support to 1088 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,500 not put your software margins at. 1089 00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,000 Risk. And so I think it is a vector 1090 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,800 for, you know, when we talk about regulatory, you know, I 1091 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,900 think there's actually some interesting questions about, are 1092 00:53:00,900 --> 00:53:03,700 you Staffing, trust and safety and responsiveness to different 1093 00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:06,100 types of flagged content and so on and so forth, you know, 1094 00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:08,100 proportionate to your Content Volume. 1095 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,900 So that the worst types of things that are occurring, you 1096 00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:16,700 know, on the system aren't live for hours days weeks, while they 1097 00:53:16,700 --> 00:53:19,700 crawl through multiple tiers of support and so on so forth. 1098 00:53:19,700 --> 00:53:22,500 And so like no, I don't want real time. 1099 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,700 Evaluation of every YouTube video, right? 1100 00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:28,100 It doesn't scale and perpetuity but I think that there's this 1101 00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:32,700 question about our we Staffing to the level of public good or 1102 00:53:32,700 --> 00:53:36,700 we Staffing to the level of, you know, a margin structure that 1103 00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:39,500 we've convinced ourselves, these companies should have even if it 1104 00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:42,600 creates more negative externalities you know for the 1105 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:43,900 world. You know what's interesting 1106 00:53:43,900 --> 00:53:46,900 about that specifically though is that listening in on Facebook 1107 00:53:46,900 --> 00:53:51,700 earnings call Ducks was you know he was signaling for a long time 1108 00:53:51,700 --> 00:53:53,800 that they were going to be making Being a multi-billion 1109 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,200 dollar investments in their trust and safety teams and it 1110 00:53:56,207 --> 00:53:58,300 would have a material impact on profits. 1111 00:53:58,700 --> 00:54:01,900 And from my understanding of it, that didn't affect the company's 1112 00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:04,100 valuation too much. I mean, the thing that really 1113 00:54:04,100 --> 00:54:07,000 tanked, Facebook was when it was a pure business problem, right? 1114 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:08,200 Yeah. When they look and this is, I 1115 00:54:08,207 --> 00:54:10,000 think over the last year to this is change a little bit as 1116 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,600 because I think I think it's become, you know, I've been. 1117 00:54:13,700 --> 00:54:14,400 Yeah. Right. 1118 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,500 So like Susan, you know, the Nook, I'm sure there's been more 1119 00:54:17,500 --> 00:54:21,100 growth in, you know, over the last few years on these teams 1120 00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:22,400 than there were in the first year. 1121 00:54:22,700 --> 00:54:25,300 To 15 to 20 and that's a good thing and I think that's frankly 1122 00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,300 been that that that wasn't internally motivated, right? 1123 00:54:28,300 --> 00:54:32,200 I think that came in response to press scrutiny, regulatory 1124 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,100 scrutiny, you know, contractor complaints, that type of stuff 1125 00:54:35,100 --> 00:54:37,200 and it's great. So maybe like, you know, maybe 1126 00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,700 we're halfway there already but you know, if you were going to 1127 00:54:40,700 --> 00:54:43,400 look and say what's, you know, for the next generation of these 1128 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,400 sorts of things for the, for the metaverse, you know, whatever. 1129 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,800 Like you know, what are some standards to evaluate whether 1130 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,000 they're likely to go you know stay on the rails or go off the 1131 00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,300 rails. It's you know, Are you 1132 00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,300 developing trust and safety in a way that scales to an 1133 00:54:57,300 --> 00:55:00,800 experienced goal or, you know, or to a to a margin goal. 1134 00:55:01,700 --> 00:55:04,100 We have to let you go. But like, I mean one thing the 1135 00:55:04,700 --> 00:55:08,800 media companies do is assess, you know, like sources is this 1136 00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,200 person, generally honest, or if I run an op-ed page, you know, 1137 00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,500 are they making strong arguments? 1138 00:55:14,500 --> 00:55:18,700 You know, there's like this human assessment of the quality 1139 00:55:18,700 --> 00:55:21,200 of the product that you're putting out, right? 1140 00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:26,900 And so if your ex Expanding and certainly for like the top sort 1141 00:55:26,900 --> 00:55:29,900 of traffic generators on a platform, it's not a big enough 1142 00:55:30,100 --> 00:55:32,100 set. It's a small enough set that, 1143 00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:34,900 you know, it's knowable to those social media platforms. 1144 00:55:34,900 --> 00:55:39,200 I mean, do you think they should apply media level standards, 1145 00:55:39,500 --> 00:55:43,600 like actual quality filters? I never liked using the word 1146 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,200 quality for me, especially say it at YouTube, quality refers to 1147 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:52,100 bitrate not, not contest that cause shows your orientation, 1148 00:55:52,100 --> 00:55:54,300 that it Still funny mommy on user-generated. 1149 00:55:54,300 --> 00:55:56,200 Yes. An engineering problem rather 1150 00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,700 than it's like we are a media business and have the main thing 1151 00:55:58,700 --> 00:56:00,700 we should care about is second line that sense. 1152 00:56:00,700 --> 00:56:02,600 YouTube know. I think that I think that I 1153 00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,500 think that the classic gatekeeper definitions of media 1154 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,600 are a subset of the type of content that deserves to exist 1155 00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,400 in be seen in the world. And so that trying to, you know, 1156 00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:15,200 suggest that those are the, you know, aspirational markers. 1157 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,200 In terms of, you know, even subject is is fundamentally 1158 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,900 wrong and Miss judges, you know, the question about What people 1159 00:56:22,900 --> 00:56:25,700 are interested in the community standards? 1160 00:56:25,700 --> 00:56:28,400 The business model, the incentive system does that also 1161 00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,300 mean that then we should run to sort of like lowest common 1162 00:56:30,300 --> 00:56:33,000 denominator in terms of people's, you know, people's 1163 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,700 interests. No, I think that we have a 1164 00:56:35,707 --> 00:56:37,000 responsibility to think about that. 1165 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,100 I'm glad to see for example, that the companies have said you 1166 00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,400 have sort of re-engineered, hopefully their algorithms to 1167 00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,400 say like, well, oh stuff that's Rising quickly. 1168 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,700 And popularity, you know, end has a bunch of controversy 1169 00:56:47,700 --> 00:56:51,100 around it, maybe we should slow that down, you know, until we 1170 00:56:51,100 --> 00:56:53,600 have a chance to look at it rather than then accelerate it 1171 00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,400 to the point where we get a clear enough signal on whether 1172 00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,500 it's really bad or not, right? Like I think those are the smart 1173 00:56:58,500 --> 00:57:01,300 engineering choices, right? I also think by the way quickly 1174 00:57:01,300 --> 00:57:04,300 to Eric's point that I also think, you know when we apply 1175 00:57:04,300 --> 00:57:08,800 media levers level standards, here we tend to bias towards the 1176 00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,000 narrative that media finds acceptable and not acceptable. 1177 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,200 And for example, when it comes to anti-vaxxer content obviously 1178 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,700 and rightfully, we are incensed by the reality that there's so 1179 00:57:18,700 --> 00:57:21,800 much anti-vaxxer stuff that gets disseminated through Facebook 1180 00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:23,900 and YouTube. Twitter, but like, you know, the 1181 00:57:23,900 --> 00:57:25,700 current war in Ukraine right now. 1182 00:57:26,100 --> 00:57:28,900 I would bet if we look at this period, maybe five ten years 1183 00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:32,800 from now, we were Awash in misinformation, we are Awash in 1184 00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,000 propaganda, Ukrainian propaganda, telling stories of 1185 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,600 heroism and and people surviving and, and, you know, people on an 1186 00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,300 island. That's hold the Russians to fuck 1187 00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:43,400 you. And then, and then apparently 1188 00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,300 got killed that got wide distribution that had, you know, 1189 00:57:47,300 --> 00:57:50,600 was as false as anything to do with anti-vaxxer content, but 1190 00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:54,300 because it is, you know, in In the service of a narrative that 1191 00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:57,200 we largely agree with which is that the ukrainians are victims 1192 00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,600 of the Russian, you know, Russian aggression here. 1193 00:57:59,700 --> 00:58:01,500 We're okay with. And it's funny to me that we're 1194 00:58:01,500 --> 00:58:04,900 not seeing that much anger right now, at Twitter, I mean, I find 1195 00:58:04,900 --> 00:58:07,400 Twitter almost unreadable these days when it comes to stuff 1196 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:09,800 about Ukraine because I'm just like, I don't believe this shit. 1197 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,100 There's no way I, you know, and I don't think anyone's vetting 1198 00:58:12,100 --> 00:58:14,500 it because people don't care because it sounds good to them. 1199 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:16,100 There's a note in your positive crane. 1200 00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:20,700 Truther Birds aren't real. I see ya. 1201 00:58:20,700 --> 00:58:22,200 Look, I changed the way I use Twitter. 1202 00:58:22,500 --> 00:58:24,200 Lately because I don't really have a point here, other than 1203 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:28,100 just like like saying media and standards as some sort of high 1204 00:58:28,100 --> 00:58:30,100 level of of truth that we should all adhere to. 1205 00:58:30,100 --> 00:58:32,100 We should just acknowledge the fact that like sometimes media 1206 00:58:32,100 --> 00:58:35,000 standards or what people want to hear, you're ready for my outro, 1207 00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,300 you ready for my outro line. Yes, Tech doesn't like to admit 1208 00:58:38,300 --> 00:58:41,400 making mistakes and the Press overcorrects on the last one 1209 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:46,400 they made totally amazing. I agree with that. 1210 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,300 Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. 1211 00:58:52,700 --> 00:59:02,400 Silicon Valley, goodbye, goodbye. 1212 00:59:02,500 --> 00:59:05,100 Goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye. 1213 00:59:05,100 --> 00:59:01,800 Goodbye. Silicon Valley, goodbye, 1214 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,800 goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye. 1215 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,400 Goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.