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Welcome. 
Hey we're here with dead cat. 

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The Zerg newcomer I'm here with 
Tom Dotan and we have Max 

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Chaffin, my old colleague from 
Bloomberg. 

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He's an editor, a business week 
and he has his book out, the 

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contrarian profile of Peter teal
and we're excited to get into 

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it. 
With him. 

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I think I know the answer to 
this. 

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My first question is very 
simple. 

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Who does Peter teal? 
See himself as in Lord of the 

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Rings? 
Or like, which character does he

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seem to admire most in your 
estimation? 

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Oh man, I want to hear who you 
think. 

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I honestly I don't know. 
I don't think my Tolkien my 

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Tolkien instincts are strong 
enough to give you a great. 

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Oh I was just like saw Rod. 
I mean he names the you know, 

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Palin. 
Hollinger sure, you know. 

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It is just like, didn't you have
you had a quote from him later 

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where he's setting up again or 
there was that story where 

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Gandalf's the bad guy or what's 
that little right? 

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What do you have? 
Yeah, you'd be tempted to say 

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he's Gandalf or something, 
right? 

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But but yeah, but there are two 
data points that work against 

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that one of which is that 
palantir like the main palantir 

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in Lord of the Rings is, is 
Sauron Zorb. 

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So it's like a, an orb for evil 
and he has talked up this fan 

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fiction book. 
Look, I think it's called the 

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last ring bearer was originally 
published in Russian and you can

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buy it now. 
But in, in the last ring bearer 

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Sauron, is that is the hero, 
right? 

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And the elves, I think the elves
are like, fascists like 

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anti-tech fascists or something.
I, but in any case, I, I don't 

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know. 
Like I feel like with a lot of 

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these things with teal people 
end up reading into his interest

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in various likes philosophers 
or, you know, religious subjects

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or whatever and and there isn't 
always as But they're there, as 

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I think his fans would like. 
So, a couple points teal has 

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offered his sort of favorite 
passage from Lord of the Rings. 

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There's a quote, that was in his
high school yearbook and then 

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he's used that at least one 
other time in an interview, and 

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I went looking for the passage, 
right. 

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But it's not actually from Lord 
of the Rings. 

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It's from a movie that came out,
a cartoon movie of The Hobbit 

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created by the creator of 
Thundercats. 

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It came out in the mid 70s, 
like, that's that I'm actually a

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pretty good movie. 
Yeah. 

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But anyway, but it's not again, 
it's not like some deep. 

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What's your coat off? 
Do you remember the gist of it 

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or if I have his yearbook 
somewhere around here, but it's 

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something like The Greatest 
Adventure is yours to make. 

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The greatest Adventure is what 
lies, it begins with the 

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greatest adventure and it's 
about this is it's about the 

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idea that like you know, your 
life is yours alone and you can 

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you have these choices which is 
a big theme in sort of the 

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aspirational parts of teals 
philosophy. 

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The problem with over Analyzing 
teal, which I'm eager to do. 

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Is that sometimes? 
Yeah, he likes to put stuff out 

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there and he's happy that people
want to like, over extrapolate 

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from it and sort of story craft,
run it, but then other times you

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have him saying very simple 
things and he's secretly trying 

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to take down Gawker or, you 
know, there are moments where 

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he'll say sort of happy benign 
thing and then he's not. 

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So it's he's good at sort of 
Shifting. 

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I mean it does it feels like In 
the book, you know you sort of 

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go through periods where you 
think, teal sort of playing it 

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safe and periods, where he's 
like, sort of a little more 

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unhinged maybe you wouldn't use 
that word. 

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I don't know what. 
Yeah, what do you is that a fair

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characterization? 
Yeah. 100%. 

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And, and, and I mean, just 
because, you know, sometimes 

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like his, his fans like, you 
know, read too far. 

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I would argue that doesn't mean 
that, I mean, I think he's a 

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really amazing package of his 
own mythology. 

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He's also somebody who is like, 
you know, of course, Very 

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incisive. 
In thinking about the future and

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just like, really good at kind 
of, you know, creating these the

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product Haitians that people 
react to and that he'll, you 

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know, ultimately make money 
from. 

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I mean, the weird thing about TL
is that, okay? 

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So he's known as this venture 
capitalist, right? 

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And that's how you know we're 
talking about him now probably 

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and how most people think of 
him, but he was originally hedge

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fund manager and I think in some
ways that that may be more how 

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he still sees himself and, you 
know, in this period where he 

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was, you know, making many of 
the Investments that, you know, 

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ultimately would like go on to 
Define Silicon Valley that we 

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all know, you know, Facebook 
being the primary one. 

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He was best known as a hedge 
fund guy, and he was betting on 

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the future, you know, through 
Founders fund but he was also 

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betting in a lot of ways, 
against the future, at least, 

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against America's future, 
through his hedge fund, where he

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was, you know, shorting, the US,
economy betting that the price 

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of oil was gonna, you know, was 
going to go crazy and 

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essentially betting. 
Collapse, and, and when I talk 

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to people, you know, who have 
been involved with his with his 

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finances, with both these 
portfolios, they talk about him.

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Always having kind of like an 
optimistic and pessimistic 

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portfolio, which of course is 
like that's hedge fund Behavior 

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or a constant theme in the book 
is like, he has a great thing 

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and then he's like, oh, let's 
pull back a little bit, you 

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know, it's too much or like with
PayPal. 

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It seemed like he was selling it
and then betting against. 

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Yeah. 
Well, he definitely doesn't 

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bite. 
Buy into the kind of like Tech 

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mythology of like, just go as 
big as you can as pot, you know,

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just go crazy. 
Big and like, either. 

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It's like the, it's either its 
enormous or it's a complete 

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strike out, right? 
He's constantly seeking to kind 

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of trim his sales. 
Do you know, do kinds of like 

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investor things? 
And I mean I think that I mean I

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think that thinking is part of 
what created Founders fund, you 

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know? 
I mean, when I was starting out 

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covering Like right in 2005, the
big conversation that was going 

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on among entrepreneurs. 
Was the way that like, you know,

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investor interests were not 
aligned with founder interests 

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where we're like investors are 
going to constantly push you to 

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you know swing for the fences. 
Whereas like if you view your 

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entire net worth like tied up in
a start-up like that's 

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definitely not in your best 
interest to just be like you 

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know being worth a hundred 
million dollars is still really,

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really, really good. 
Like I know being a billionaire 

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is great but and I think that 
that was kind of the dynamic 

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that was Laying out between teal
and Mike Moritz in like, you 

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know, 2000-2001. 
It's like why they sort of were 

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at odds and kind of like white 
eel-like. 

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Ultimately start a Founders fund
I think is that is like this 

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sense that entrepreneurs should 
be able to like take care of 

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themselves in a more? 
Yeah, yeah. 

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Just in a more direct way. 
And and, and that turns into 

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this whole mythology that about,
you know, we never fire founder 

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and, and so on. 
So I want to rewind a little bit

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here because Yeah, I came into 
this book with an idea that I 

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had, and I'd Express this on the
show before that. 

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I'm not sure, Peter teal is as 
important, a figure, as 

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sometimes the media makes him 
out to be that. 

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He obviously, because of his, 
like, you say, very neatly 

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packaged Persona and and 
self-expression. 

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And of course, his role in The 
Gawker lawsuit that we've had a 

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bit of a fascination with him, 
that maybe exceeds his actual 

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power and presence. 
And as I was reading your book, 

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I was trying to get A census to,
like who is he within the sphere

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of specifically of Silicon 
Valley because politics is 

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obviously a whole other 
discussion spending all the time

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that you did meeting with Peter 
teal a couple of times and 

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interviewing a lot of his 
friends, people close to him. 

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Where do you think he sits 
within just, the culture of 

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Silicon Valley? 
I mean, do you consider him a 

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product of Silicon Valley or is 
he does he exist in contrast to 

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it? 
I mean, I think that he is like 

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the single most important 
cultural influence on Silicon 

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Valley. 
So You know, I don't know if 

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he's the most important investor
like, you know, he's obviously 

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not the richest guy. 
They're probably arguments, you 

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can make about Elon Musk I 
suppose on this cultural 

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Dimension, but I think like a 
lot of the kind of key ideas 

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that are just sort of accepted, 
not just by kind of like, right 

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Wingers and free, you know, 
freethinkers and intellectual. 

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The people who are aligned with 
teal politically intact, which 

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I, which is a bit. 
I think it's a bigger percentage

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of the tech industry Than People
realize know for sure. 

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But that it is that it has these
ideas. 

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Are largely widely accepted even
among people who disagree with 

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him. 
You know, on Trump and things 

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like that, which ideas 
specifically. 

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So the idea of tech as Monopoly 
capitalism that you should get 

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as big as you can, as fast as 
you can. 

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You know, that companies should 
pursue monopolies that 

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disruption for its own sake, is 
a good thing, a social good, not

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just something that happens. 
You know, by accident, we're 

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like oops, like we we 
accidentally did something 

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wrong, I'm sorry we're going to 
fix it, but we're breaking the 

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law. 
Or breaking Norms or you know, 

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burying an old institution right
is, is a good that we should 

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pursue. 
I'm sure there are others, but, 

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like, this notion that Founders 
are a privileged class that, 

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right? 
That Founders should be in 

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charge of companies and that 
probably like the buttock, the 

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Randy and stuff, right? 
I mean that's your objectivists 

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theology, but it's also makes 
the argument in the book super 

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interesting. 
Because right, if you say this, 

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this Silicon Valley View is that
Founders are all important. 

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The book makes the argument that
actually Till's, like, a really 

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political guy, and he even when 
he was the CEO of PayPal, he was

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like, mostly interested in. 
We wanted to use money at PayPal

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to invest, then he leaves 
PayPal. 

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He wants to hedge against it. 
Just he very much seems like 

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Financial in a way that he talks
or at least the Silicon Valley 

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me ptosis well and the fact that
he kind of backs into being a 

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tech character 100%. 
Yeah, right. 

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I mean, he goes to Stanford his 
initial, you know, jobs or In 

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the banking and finance world. 
And then by dint of his just not

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succeeding very much there, he 
know, he kind of just ends up in

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a happenstance meeting with what
Max levchin and and PayPal 

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results from that. 
But he's not like a technologist

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to his core. 
In the way that Steve Jobs truly

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believe that, you know, fucking 
run of people's phones in the 

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70s could lead towards, you 
know, a computer Revolution, 

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although was that jobs. 
I mean, that's that's work here,

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the package or two, right? 
I mean that's Wozniak really and

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John kind of, I mean, I don't 
know, very similar Dynamic. 

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It's a Well, Steve Jobs cared 
about product. 

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I mean, products is part of 
being a found and art. 

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I mean, there was a unifying 
philosophy. 

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That was centered around 
technology Beyond just a way to 

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enrich yourself. 
But anyway, 100%, I think that's

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an important Point of Departure,
you know? 

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And I, as I say the book, I 
think that's important. 

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Part of the Point of Departure 
where, you know, kind of like 

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the PayPal Mafia way, you know, 
differs from the the jobs, 

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right. 
Steve Jobs is a good, a good 

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manager in that it gets output, 
and it's very hierarchical. 

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The way you paint Peter teal is 
that he's the best manager, when

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he lets everybody just like 
experiment with shit, and then 

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when it's to hierarchical, it 
goes poorly. 

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Steve Jobs. 
Also do drugs. 

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Well, so I think I mean, I think
so until did in some ways kind 

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of, I guess luck into it. 
I do think he was, he went 

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looking for Max levchin. 
It wasn't. 

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I mean, he obviously met him by 
chance but I think if you look 

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at Tails career and this is kind
of funny for a guy. 

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Guy who's like all about, you 
know, not following the herd, 

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the thing that he's seems sort 
of most good at is not so much, 

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not following the herd, but 
selling into the herd or selling

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into a bubble, right? 
It is two ways you can make 

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money in a bubble. 
You could either, you know, 

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short it or you can sell into 
it. 

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And he'll often is is kind of 
spotting these Bubbles and 

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figuring out like clever ways to
profit from them. 

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And like I've put PayPal in that
category is not like PayPal. 

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Was like a novel idea there were
like 30 or 40 or whatever other.

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Smaller payments companies 
palantir, I think was basically 

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a selling into a bubble and that
that was like data mining in the

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wake of 9/11 and I think you can
and Trump even was kind of like 

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that where he sort of saw that 
there was this growing you know 

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right wing movement especially 
online and that was more 

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powerful than people realize but
I do think given that he's all 

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he's like really focused on 
bubbles and and spotting them. 

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It that probably is part of the 
reason why I like he's been so 

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successful in those ways at the 
heart. 

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Out of his world view. 
It's funny like you called a 

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book. 
You know, the contrarian and 

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that's such a common Silicon 
Valley posture. 

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It's not really you know it's 
not an ideologies it's a it's a 

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response it's like a debate 
tactic, but at the same time 

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like if you like you easily 
could have called the book like 

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the contradict Aryan. 
So much of his, what he stands 

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for stands in contrast to the 
companies that he's built, 

247
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right? 
He's this randian libertarian 

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who also profited. 
The off of the military 

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professed profession and even 
that. 

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Right? 
So that, I mean, maybe even gets

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even more to like the 
contradiction there, but let's 

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pretend. 
He's somewhat honest in that 

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belief and yet he profited 
enormously with pounds here off 

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the military-industrial complex.
And then, you know, he raged 

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against cultural the move 
towards like culture wars in the

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60s, and yet his backing of 
trump who exist, strictly as an 

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avatar of the culture wars and 
like the riling up of culture 

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fights in the Republican Party, 
would seem to stand a contrast 

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to that. 
I mean, did you find like a 

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coherence to the way he views 
things that makes you understand

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some aspect of his success, or 
at least his influence or is it 

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just I mean is it purely just 
contrarian ISM as a 

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argumentative tactic? 
Well I picked that title kind of

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for exactly the reason you say, 
you know, teal thinks contrarian

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ism is an ideology, right? 
Like his whole like Gerard Ian, 

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let's like not follow the herd, 
he tries to turn it into a life 

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philosophy. 
But as you say it's limiting and

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it's and I think it's may be 
limiting in a way that's 

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irreconcilable. 
I think there are lots of 

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stories that people tell for 
like, how to unify all these 

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like bizarrely, you know, 
contradictory beliefs, and like 

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obvious instances of just pure, 
you know, hypocrisy. 

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You know what, we brought our 
Founders fund, you know, 

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Founders fund has pushed 
Founders out, like, there's just

275
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lots of ways and they love to 
invest in see rounds, like, for 

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like a work contrary, it's like,
oh, you wait for me? 

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Momentum from Top feces and then
you invested a billion or so, 

278
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,700
you know, that's like their 
strategy. 

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But I so to me, like one obvious
thing and I think, you know, 

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maybe it's the whole thing is 
money. 

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I mean, I think Peter teal 
cares, a lot about his money and

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00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,100
his wealth. 
And, and I think in a lot of 

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00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:51,100
ways like this, you know, this 
whole kind of like ideological 

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system and, and his his self 
presentation and the mythology, 

285
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,300
and, you know, there's sort of 
two mythology, Peter teal as a 

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00:14:57,300 --> 00:15:00,700
hero and Peter teal has this 
kind of You know, villain, I 

287
00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:04,800
think teal has kind of amped up 
both of those on purpose and, 

288
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and I think often it's the 
purpose is like just to make 

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money. 
I do think there are, you know, 

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00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:15,800
like ideological threads. 
And and of course their I don't 

291
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,700
think it's just like pure like 
contradictory Enos. 

292
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:23,900
I mean, I think teal is, you 
know, super libertarian, 

293
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,500
especially when it comes to, you
know, the rights of tech 

294
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billionaires. 
I mean, till thinks the tech 

295
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:29,500
billionaire should roll the 
world, his Liberty. 

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Meaning that he should be able 
to do whatever he wants and and 

297
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,900
like that idea, of course, as is
one that's like been widely 

298
00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:38,800
accepted not just by 
right-wingers in the tech 

299
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,000
industry, but by like a lot of 
left-wingers think like? 

300
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,200
Yeah, if the world were working 
right, like, Tech billionaires 

301
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:44,800
would be ruling the world. 
What? 

302
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,900
Hence, Like Larry Page saying 
he's gonna give his money away 

303
00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:50,500
to like, Elon Musk or I mean, 
there are lots of examples that 

304
00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:53,700
you can point to, to show, how 
widespread that worldview is. 

305
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:58,600
I do think he's super right wing
on immigration like legitimately

306
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,000
thinks that, you know, we You 
know, close the border, build 

307
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,200
the wall, you know, probably 
threw out some of the 

308
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,400
undocumented immigrants, and it 
always does feel like the thing 

309
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,200
you can't say, is like racist 
stuff. 

310
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:10,900
I mean, not it. 
Like, right? 

311
00:16:10,900 --> 00:16:13,100
I mean, just when I mean, and 
they were a little more 

312
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:16,600
transparent about it sort of at 
the Stanford days where it's 

313
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,900
like, what can you talk about? 
It's like affirmative action 

314
00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:21,500
type are, you know, I mean, 
well, yeah, I think you say 

315
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:25,400
that, or I think the way I've 
been I try to, I thought about 

316
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,700
it is sort of like, white 
identity politics, right? 

317
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:32,200
This sense that Like white 
people are the, you know, 

318
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,800
somehow the oppressed class 
which of course is pretty 

319
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,700
racist. 
And I mean, you know, in the 

320
00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:39,800
context of our history and 
culture and everything like 

321
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,700
that, and I do think there's 
something there are definite, 

322
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:45,900
you know, kind of racial 
overtones the way that teal 

323
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:49,200
talks about has talked about 
diversity in the past and the 

324
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,900
way, even now he and his allies,
you know, talk about the west 

325
00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:54,400
and things like that. 
I mean, you know, besides the 

326
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,300
the sort of Hardcore immigration
stuff, right? 

327
00:16:56,300 --> 00:17:00,200
The other thing is like this, 
this cultural Tizen, which is 

328
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,300
kind of another version of what 
of I think what you're saying. 

329
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:05,200
Eric like, this sense that, you 
know, actually the really 

330
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,700
oppressed people are these white
Tech guys who like can you know,

331
00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:11,400
say who are like afraid to say 
what they believe because it 

332
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,300
might be considered racist or 
something like that. 

333
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,900
But then he goes after Gawker 
because they say what they want 

334
00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:17,500
it. 
I mean I know we're just going 

335
00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:21,200
to say is contradictory all day 
but it is speech on the left 

336
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,700
that's of the style that he 
professes to want on the right. 

337
00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:27,400
He has a whole crusade to shut 
down. 

338
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:29,400
Yeah. 
Well which is part of the reason

339
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,700
why I think the money thing is 
like a really important, right? 

340
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:35,400
Part of that story and I think 
any time you drift too far away 

341
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,800
from that story around he'll 
like you're kind of missing it. 

342
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,600
Like he's he is a person who is 
motivated by maybe not 

343
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,600
exclusively but partly at least 
often by his own you know what 

344
00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,000
it's going to mean for his own 
interests and he's good at 

345
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,500
making money. 
He is not the best. 

346
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:54,700
But no, no he's not. 
And he and I think he's not in 

347
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:57,500
part because he's pursued this 
off in this life, social more 

348
00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,500
more conservative approach 
towards. 

349
00:17:59,700 --> 00:18:02,700
Investments. 
I mean he also clearly wants 

350
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,600
power and influence and and you 
know influence as a you know 

351
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,200
quote-unquote public 
intellectual which is the phrase

352
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,100
that he, you know, usually uses 
but you know, political 

353
00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:15,100
influence. 
I mean that's kind of where he 

354
00:18:15,100 --> 00:18:17,900
started his career. 
He's his original 

355
00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:21,500
entrepreneurial venture was 
political activism and I think 

356
00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:25,500
that is still, you know, a big 
part of kind of like who he is 

357
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:28,000
and how he sees himself and what
he wants. 

358
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:31,000
And I do like the way I I was I 
thought about it during the book

359
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,900
was like, you have these two 
projects, one is a political 

360
00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:37,000
project and then there's a 
business project. 

361
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,500
They work together, right? 
It's kind of like the Koch 

362
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:42,500
Industries and the Koch brothers
kind of libertarian. 

363
00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:46,600
Political donations, where teal 
is, is creating these companies.

364
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,500
It's not an industrial 
conglomerate like Coke. 

365
00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:51,400
It's a post industrial 
conglomerate of Till's, you 

366
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,400
know, Tech Holdings and various 
Investments and crypto Holdings 

367
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,500
or whatever. 
And that's throwing cash off, 

368
00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:59,800
and feeding money into this 
political project, which is And 

369
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,600
to you know create a regulatory 
environment that is more 

370
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,400
hospitable to those companies 
continuing to make money and 

371
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,700
more hospitable to Peter, teal 
limiting, his tax exposure and 

372
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:12,600
and and such so and that feeds 
back into the business thing. 

373
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,200
So like they're related I do you
think a lot of left-leaning 

374
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,900
Centrist Founders like to forget
about that fact. 

375
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:24,200
I mean there's Founders fund is 
his money. 

376
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,500
It serves like his political 
project how effective is his 

377
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:31,900
political Checked, if you 
compare it to other right-wing 

378
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:35,500
billionaires, like specifically 
the kochs, because okay and one 

379
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:39,000
sense we have Trump, which, you 
know, good investment, that 

380
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,100
turned out pretty well for him 
and it was a contrarian bet, but

381
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:46,400
he also in your book, you say he
supported Ron Paul in 2012 that 

382
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,700
was obviously a bust. 
Noah Hawley seems to be his guy 

383
00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:52,600
right now. 
Josh Holly, I do this a lot. 

384
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,800
Actually Josh Josh Holly not the
guy who created the FX Fargo 

385
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,300
series. 
Yeah, Josh Holly is his I now 

386
00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:04,000
he's barely registering in, 
like, the straw polls for Iowa, 

387
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,300
and 2024, and, you know, the 
president is just one line of 

388
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,600
political influence. 
But do you see a broad and 

389
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,700
successful network of lobbying 
efforts on his part or or the 

390
00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:17,400
packs that he invests in? 
Do those do those get results? 

391
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,500
I mean, how would you rank 
attempt to the Koch brothers? 

392
00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:23,600
So yeah, we're staying. 
So what's interesting about 

393
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,100
teal, right? 
And I think this is a reason why

394
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:29,400
he's not taken maybe as 
seriously as he should be. 

395
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,200
Be, you know, in d.c., is that 
he it's pretty disorganized, 

396
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,200
right? 
He doesn't have like a normal 

397
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,000
Beltway apparatus. 
Like I think that, like, Reid 

398
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,600
Hoffman stuff is more kind of 
organized and a little bit more 

399
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,900
traditional than than Till's. 
His has been sort of, you know, 

400
00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:50,500
weirdly ad hoc like the Ron Paul
thing was done by these 

401
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:52,600
Outsiders. 
Like it was like a guys I talked

402
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,900
about in the book was like a guy
who'd done infomercials and and 

403
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:58,100
somebody who's in the kind of 
right-wing Tech World, rather 

404
00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:01,000
than you know somebody who Like 
came out of either the 

405
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,200
libertarian movement or, you 
know DC politics. 

406
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,500
I mean, the coke thing took 
time, right? 

407
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:10,900
I mean, David Koch, he ran for 
president unsuccessfully, I 

408
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:15,100
think in 1980, you know, it just
because like it doesn't just 

409
00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:19,400
because like you know, there 
haven't been tons of political 

410
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,500
results. 2.2, doesn't mean that,
you know, he is in making an 

411
00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:24,400
impact. 
I mean, I think like the way 

412
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,700
these kind of like ideological 
projects work, like it's less 

413
00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:31,900
about any one candidate and it's
Or about getting these ideas, 

414
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,400
you know, in the case of the 
cokes, right? 

415
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,900
It was like energy deregulation 
and things like that getting 

416
00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:38,700
these ideas you know into the 
mainstream. 

417
00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:42,000
And of course now whatever 
there's a lot of pushback 

418
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,200
against some of these ideas that
teal has been pushing. 

419
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:50,100
I'd argue pretty successfully. 
I mean, I think that teal is 

420
00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:53,600
still kind of like an emerging 
Force rather than like you know 

421
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:55,800
rather than like a power in his 
own right. 

422
00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:58,500
But I think we're watching his 
prominence rise. 

423
00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:02,600
I mean really the Yeah. 
Yeah, because Trump post Trump. 

424
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:03,900
Yeah, I would say, I would say 
so. 

425
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:06,800
Yeah. 
So like he's given already 2022,

426
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,500
right? 
He's committed, 20, 20 million 

427
00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:13,500
dollars plus which is like 10 
times like what he's given in 

428
00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:17,800
any previous election and he 
wants the bad stuff like he 

429
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,000
wants. 
The Republican party to stay 

430
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,700
Trump in a way. 
Not to go back to whatever the 

431
00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:28,000
business world of the 
Republicans was. 

432
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:28,700
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

433
00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:31,500
He's very much a Against the 
coke version of Republican 

434
00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:33,900
politics. 
He wants the trumpy, you know, 

435
00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:38,100
hard right immigration. 
Bill, the wall, you know, cancel

436
00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:42,400
cancel culture and, you know, 
pursue you do nationalistic 

437
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,000
industrial policy, probably get 
a lots more contracts for 

438
00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:49,400
palantir and handle, and again, 
so hysterical because this is 

439
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,700
all in contrast to, he's not a 
loser, just forget about it. 

440
00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:57,700
He's not like yeah, I mean, it's
pure identity politics. 

441
00:22:57,700 --> 00:23:00,600
Which I understand, I mean, from
your book, you And goes back to 

442
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,700
his days at the review so it's 
not completely new to him. 

443
00:23:04,700 --> 00:23:08,800
But it's just so funny to me for
like a capitalist to be banking 

444
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,500
entirely on a version of the 
Republican party. 

445
00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:15,600
That is strictly about, you 
know, a grievance politics and 

446
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,300
and identity resentment. 
Yeah, but I mean, that's one way

447
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:21,200
in which teal and, you know, 
Trump has, you know, have 

448
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,200
something in common. 
I mean, he's somebody who's gone

449
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,000
through has, you know, felt 
those feelings of grievance, you

450
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,400
know, for much of his life, who 
has Stood, you know, intuitively

451
00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:34,300
you know how to package those 
Grievances and, you know, sell 

452
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:37,500
them to an audience, you know. 
I think like they're all these 

453
00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:41,100
Temptations like to sort of 
psychologize teal especially 

454
00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:43,300
like teal during his, you know, 
college. 

455
00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:45,800
Here's when he when he was 
engaged when he and his buddies 

456
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,700
were engaged in all these, you 
know, provocations that were, 

457
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:51,400
you know, that seemed, you know,
racist, sexist, homophobic, or 

458
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,300
whatever. 
Also, just a drip, just seemed 

459
00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:55,800
no fun to be around. 
We do not want to be stuck at 

460
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,700
any party with this guy. 
I think it's important to 

461
00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:02,500
remember that, like, that pose. 
Is was how you got a job in the 

462
00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:04,800
Republican Party in the 1980. 
Like that's how you got an 

463
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,500
internship. 
Like that was a path to 

464
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,100
influence and power and has been
for a long time. 

465
00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:12,900
I mean Stanford review was kind 
of modeled on Dinesh. 

466
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:15,500
D'souza's paper you know there's
another version of this at 

467
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:19,400
Cornell the the Cornell review 
which is an coulter's paper like

468
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,800
he's swimming in a stream where 
we're like this kind of 

469
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,200
grievance is what sells Eric? 
What's the Harvard version of 

470
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,300
the conservatives? 
What the Service newspaper at 

471
00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:31,700
heart. 
I forget, honestly, I mean, 

472
00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:35,600
there were, there were sort of 
Proto, sort of trumpy, people 

473
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,000
who had run around, but I think 
some of, you know, one of them 

474
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,100
went into New York's at Barclays
or something now, so, it seems 

475
00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:43,400
like he gave it up, I don't 
know, but you'd meet, like, sort

476
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,700
of performer types. 
But for the most part, it was 

477
00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:48,800
Harvard. 
Republican Club was very, you 

478
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,000
know, probably probably didn't 
even endorse Trump. 

479
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,700
I forget, you know, but I'm sure
it exists, like, it's Stanford. 

480
00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:57,000
I mean, first of all, I think 
Stanford is more conservative 

481
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,700
than Harvard in some ways. 
I mean, 100%, Everett had like 

482
00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:02,700
that was a big part of the 
cultural fight. 

483
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:06,100
I mean, Harvard, just looking 
for all, you know, I don't know.

484
00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:11,200
Didn't feel like the these sort 
of firebrands were a big 

485
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,600
presence on campus. 
What's the influence that he'll 

486
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,300
has these days on Facebook? 
You think, I mean, during the 

487
00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:20,200
height of the Cambridge 
analytical stuff and Till's 

488
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:23,300
endorsement of trump, he became 
a real Flashpoint. 

489
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,100
And you know what role he was 
playing in terms of, you know, 

490
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:29,100
convincing the Trump 
Administration to go easy on 

491
00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:31,000
them. 
Or whatever came up a lot and in

492
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,700
your book. 
I mean these days is he an 

493
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:37,000
influential board member at all?
Or is it, you know, is there 

494
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,700
string-pulling happening that 
we're not saying? 

495
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:41,900
I think he's probably like the 
only influential board member 

496
00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:43,500
maybe with Marc Andreessen or 
something. 

497
00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:47,100
Like I think he is, probably one
of the most, if not the most 

498
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:49,900
influential board members. 
I think some of this comes from 

499
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:54,200
my reporting, but I think also, 
like, you could, you know, where

500
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,900
my understanding is like 
Zuckerberg like steel, because 

501
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,100
steel gives it to him, like it 
is, right? 

502
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:01,300
And He's like not a, he's not a 
yes man. 

503
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:04,000
He's kind of an independent 
thinker, that's valuable to 

504
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,400
Zuckerberg. 
I also, thank whatever there is 

505
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,500
a shared Bond, right? 
I mean, he's really the first 

506
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:12,500
person who believed in Mark 
Zuckerberg and especially, you 

507
00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:15,300
know, in the Trump era, I think 
teal was like, very important to

508
00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:18,400
Facebook's kind of like 
public-facing Persona because 

509
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,900
he's a way to protect Zuckerberg
from allegations of being, you 

510
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:25,400
know, a terrible left Winger or 
something like that from from 

511
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,800
the president. 
I also think like if Zuckerberg 

512
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,800
didn't like, you know, that Like
a bird really like steel because

513
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,000
he hasn't fired him. 
I mean maybe that's not the only

514
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,900
thing but like teal is given and
continues to give Facebook a 

515
00:26:36,900 --> 00:26:40,700
zillion reasons to replace him 
and they don't and I think like 

516
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:44,000
you have to ask yourself like 
why why that is like he's 

517
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,400
creating some value for his uh 
cupboard. 

518
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,000
Whether it's just pure kind of 
like political capital or 

519
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,800
political Capital, like an 
advice. 

520
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,200
I think it's the latter but but 
I it's possible. 

521
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,400
It's just totally opposed here. 
I want to I want to frame up an 

522
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,200
argument and be still Ellie just
loves to believe it's small, 

523
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,100
it's more fun and it is small. 
I mean, you can read it through 

524
00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:07,200
this book where, you know, half 
the people running around, 

525
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,100
Silicon Valley, roll off like 
Keith David Sachs like, you 

526
00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:13,500
know, they were all at PayPal, 
you know? 

527
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:15,900
And yeah, even Mike Morris was 
the antagonist. 

528
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:17,500
You know. 
It's just like, they're all Jeff

529
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:19,400
Jordan to from eBay. 
It was funny. 

530
00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:19,900
Yeah. 
Right. 

531
00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:21,700
Jeff, Jordan comes up with the 
acquisition. 

532
00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:24,200
It's amazing. 
I mean, it's it's so small. 

533
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,400
And if you think of it, honestly
is just like a group of people 

534
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:29,800
who associate with each. 
Each other. 

535
00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:33,300
So many of them all believe the 
same things, they're boring, 

536
00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:34,500
too. 
Many of them are sort of 

537
00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:39,100
business, guys, in this sort of 
game view of Silicon Valley, I 

538
00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:42,500
can see why you love Peter, teal
because he's funny, you know, 

539
00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:44,800
maybe he's weird and kind of 
parties, but he wants to play 

540
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,800
chess like it's unsettling, you 
always have is just like, like 

541
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,000
so many people are just boring 
and Peter thiel's interesting. 

542
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,700
He's running schemes. 
Like it makes you feel like he's

543
00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:57,100
really doing the stuff. 
A rich person should do in the 

544
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:59,200
way that everybody else is sort 
of boring. 

545
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,400
Like, Eric Schmidt Futures like,
who cares? 

546
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,600
Like it doesn't have the same 
appeal. 

547
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,400
So if you're one of these rich 
people who thinks money-making 

548
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,000
is mostly a game and even the 
political stuff is about 

549
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,200
building allies in Washington, 
you know, if you're raising a 

550
00:28:14,208 --> 00:28:17,200
bunch of money and 90% of them 
are from Democrats, why not have

551
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,300
ten percent of the people have 
some access to Republicans who 

552
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:22,300
are a bunch of crazy people 
running around the country, 

553
00:28:22,300 --> 00:28:26,000
whether you like it or not. 
So I feel like that's the view 

554
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,600
and then the Trump as you sort 
of talked about in the book 

555
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,100
makes it sort of Of a problem. 
Because all of a sudden people 

556
00:28:31,100 --> 00:28:35,700
see that, oh, teals, like 
worldview has consequences. 

557
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,200
And then you say, you know, some
people distance themselves. 

558
00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:42,900
I mean, talk about why see, 
like, I'm skeptical how much 

559
00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:44,800
that world is really distanced 
himself? 

560
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:45,900
You don't, you don't go at 
length. 

561
00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:49,100
I'm not saying it's wrong, but 
they do as a brand, but those 

562
00:28:49,100 --> 00:28:52,200
people are all so close. 
Oh, Peter teal, right? 

563
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,500
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
No. 

564
00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:55,000
I don't, I don't think they're 
just instead. 

565
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,000
All right, meaning, right. 
And say, I mean, I know Sam 

566
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,000
Altman is sort on the outside 
now but he and Are, you know, 

567
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,000
clearly very close and have 
been, you know, for years, 

568
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,200
right? 
And I think you're right, I 

569
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,100
mean, like, the, the guys are 
still involved in ycr. 

570
00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:11,300
Are totally kind of on this, 
like, you know, they are T lists

571
00:29:11,300 --> 00:29:13,800
like and proudly. 
So, for the most part and I 

572
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,600
think you're kind of assessment 
of like, what makes him 

573
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,300
attractive is like 100%, right? 
And it's not just attractive to 

574
00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:22,900
like rich people, but like 
attractive to Young ambitious 

575
00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:25,600
people kind of people who want 
to not, you know, not just 

576
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,400
people who already have 
companies. 

577
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,600
But, you know, the kind of 
people who want to make Get in 

578
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,000
Silicon Valley, who are who have
aspirations, and all that. 

579
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,200
And I mean, to me like, there's 
stuff in zero to one that really

580
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,500
like pushes, you know, it's 
pretty far out there, right? 

581
00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:40,500
Where he's talking about, you 
know, we should just have 

582
00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:44,200
monopolies and you should, you 
should just break the rules, you

583
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,800
know, it's pretty awesome that, 
you know, five out of the six 

584
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,800
PayPal fat before. 
I forget what he says. 

585
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,400
You know, we're making bombs 
like and all that stuff is like 

586
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,700
really kind of scary. 
Honestly accept it. 

587
00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:58,500
You do have the sense, right? 
That everybody believes it 

588
00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:01,200
anyway, like Like, Eric Schmidt 
believes that shit anyway, but 

589
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,100
Eric Schmidt is just trying to 
like, play a more like subtle 

590
00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:07,100
political game. 
And I think that's part of the 

591
00:30:07,100 --> 00:30:09,000
appeal. 
Teal is saying the quiet part 

592
00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:11,400
out loud, and people respect him
for that. 

593
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,100
And I think he gets respect for 
that, even for Pete from people 

594
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:15,700
who, you know, disagree with 
him. 

595
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,000
Obviously I actually believe 
that, you know, morality is 

596
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,100
doing the right thing in face of
what might be more fun for you 

597
00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:26,000
or strategic to your company and
that and to some degree. 

598
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,200
It fits into the early argument 
downplaying Till's influence. 

599
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,800
It's makes it easier to say he's
a kook. 

600
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,800
Like yes he's he has ploys but 
he's not like some Global Puppet

601
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,800
Master therefore we can still 
work with him because he's not 

602
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,000
and so the longer it seems like 
just sort of quirky character 

603
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,200
versus a Coke brother level 
thing. 

604
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,700
Zack can still keep him on the 
board or whatever. 

605
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,400
Yeah. 
And I think that teal does there

606
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,600
are ways in which I think teals,
like success is sometimes 

607
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,000
overplayed people tend to 
overlook the like obvious 

608
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,300
failures. 
Both failures of sort of like 

609
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,400
Ding imagination and selling at 
the wrong time and the fact that

610
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,200
he like, ran one of the world's 
most successful hedge funds into

611
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,800
the ground and like a span of 
like, you know, whatever 18 

612
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,800
months or something and he 
blames it on Gawker? 

613
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,700
See me? 
I mean, I think he blames it and

614
00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:18,000
he blamed it in part on Gawker 
and that some of that is just 

615
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,500
like, on an emotional level, 
right? 

616
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:23,200
Like he was off his game, but of
course, as the hedge fund was 

617
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,300
falling apart. 
It was there were lots of 

618
00:31:25,308 --> 00:31:26,800
withdraws. 
You know, investors are pulling 

619
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,300
their money out. 
Where was amazing? 

620
00:31:28,300 --> 00:31:32,100
He said the world's To collapse 
and then he doesn't make the 

621
00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:35,400
short bets to match it. 
I mean, he's like the whole 

622
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,300
thing's going to blow up and 
then I mean, but it did seem 

623
00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:41,400
like they were down for the year
but not as down as the stock 

624
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,500
market or is other hedge funds 
who didn't do so poorly. 

625
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,600
No exact. 
Well yeah, he did. 

626
00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:48,900
What would happen is they lost a
bunch of investor money and 

627
00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:51,300
then, and then they lost all 
their investors and so, and then

628
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:53,700
it turned into a little part of 
that had to do with that. 

629
00:31:53,700 --> 00:31:56,600
Completely unhinged investor 
letter that he sent out, which I

630
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,200
imagine if I had money in that 
kind of fun than I see. 

631
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,700
That letter coming through, I'd 
be a little concerned about how 

632
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:05,300
well, my money is being managed.
Yeah, which is again, 

633
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:08,400
interesting when you start to 
marry like the business Acumen 

634
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,300
with the personality and like 
when that meshes well, and when 

635
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:14,200
it doesn't yeah, yeah. 
That investor letter is like 

636
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,400
really? 
I mean, if you're at all curious

637
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,900
in this, in this stuff, it's 
worth a look because it's just 

638
00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:21,900
so it's just so out there, it's 
called the optimistic thought 

639
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:26,300
experiment, and it's about the 
investment thesis is that we're 

640
00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:29,900
all under rating, the prospect 
of apocalypse, Which is a thing 

641
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:33,500
that you see, you know, running 
through not just heels kind of 

642
00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:35,900
ideas, but the idea is like many
of his followers, right? 

643
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:39,000
They're all looking, you know, 
this is like why I would argue 

644
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,100
anyway. 
Like why David Sachs is like 

645
00:32:41,100 --> 00:32:43,800
tweeting videos of people 
breaking into cars in San 

646
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,600
Francisco. 
Like they're they're just on the

647
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,000
lookout for societal collapse 
because a big part of the 

648
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,400
overall philosophy is that 
Society is going to collapse and

649
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,400
there are going to be these like
tech companies that either save 

650
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,200
it or save the the lucky few who
Embrace this Tech. 

651
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,900
So it's looking up, it is an 
apocalyptic philosophy. 

652
00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:03,600
I read even Amazon more than 
America. 

653
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,200
That's my new position. 
So I guess I agree with them in 

654
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,400
that he doesn't seem to get 
along with Bezos so well. 

655
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,500
So that's interesting to me 
because, you know, as the only 

656
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:16,400
person who lives in San 
Francisco, I live in the 

657
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,800
apocalypse Everyday by which I 
mean like seeing the tweets 

658
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:25,400
about but it's an interesting 
State of Affairs and I really 

659
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,000
did get that from reading your 
book because in one sense, Tech 

660
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,900
is Ever been more powerful than 
ever, right? 

661
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:34,100
The valuation of these companies
keeps going up and yet the 

662
00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:36,700
people that are running them or 
the investors seem like they 

663
00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:39,300
couldn't be more unhappy. 
It's so it's like in one sense 

664
00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:40,900
they couldn't be more 
comfortable but they're 

665
00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:43,800
incredibly unhappy about the 
State of Affairs there. 

666
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,300
And I wonder if this is just 
them going back to this idea of 

667
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:50,800
like, you know, whites or the 
oppressed class that their basic

668
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:55,200
worldview is they cannot if ever
there comfortable. 

669
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,500
It's a problem and they can't 
accept that fact. 

670
00:33:57,500 --> 00:34:00,300
And so they have to find some Is
whether it's the coming 

671
00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:03,700
apocalypse or woke nests or 
other aspects that, you know, 

672
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:06,800
challenge their worldview even 
slightly that they have to, you 

673
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,699
know, doomsday all of it. 
I mean, do you think that's kind

674
00:34:09,699 --> 00:34:11,500
of informing that mentality 
right now? 

675
00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:14,199
Or or why is it that the teal 
and the teal acolytes? 

676
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,000
You're talking about, algae, 
David Sachs, all of these people

677
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,900
that come here, book seemed to 
spend all their time, predicting

678
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:24,100
the end of times and yet they're
richer than they've ever been. 

679
00:34:24,100 --> 00:34:25,800
I mean, but I think all of us, 
right? 

680
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,000
Like The Grass Is Always 
Greener, yada, yada yada but I 

681
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,400
think I think it's probably 
Bleah more like, you know, 

682
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:31,699
they're pressing their 
advantage. 

683
00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:35,600
I mean, like they like they see 
an opportunity to, you know what

684
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,400
ever influence politics in a way
that is is to their liking to 

685
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,300
further, you know, consolidate 
the power that they have 

686
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:46,600
Acquired and to set things up to
be even better going forward, 

687
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,500
but maybe there is some like 
deep psychological you, no 

688
00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:52,300
explanation for it. 
But I tend to think that they're

689
00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:54,300
playing politics which is kind 
of what they've always been 

690
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:56,100
doing. 
It's just now you know, they 

691
00:34:56,100 --> 00:34:59,200
have a lot more attention and 
more money too. 

692
00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:01,300
Play with, why is he not on 
Twitter, by the way? 

693
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,400
I mean, this guy seems like he 
never misses an opportunity to 

694
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:08,300
deliver his worldview to witting
or unwitting audience. 

695
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:13,000
So he's kind of, you know, first
of all, he's very careful, 

696
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,200
right? 
He's not somebody who likes to 

697
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,300
be exposed in any way, right? 
And I don't just mean like have 

698
00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:22,100
his Secrets reported although 
that's true but like I mean 

699
00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:26,200
emotionally exposed like he's 
somebody who likes to have this 

700
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,400
kind of protective shield around
him right and And so, you know, 

701
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,200
Twitter obviously Pierce's that 
and all sorts of what, you know,

702
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,200
and if you're, you know, Marc 
Andreessen, you could just block

703
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:36,700
everybody. 
There are obviously, like ways 

704
00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:39,600
to like, you know, you know, 
maintain your filter bubble. 

705
00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:42,100
But I think that that there's 
something about the platform 

706
00:35:42,100 --> 00:35:44,800
that is kind of antithetical to,
like, Till's personality. 

707
00:35:44,900 --> 00:35:48,800
You also see like yes, like, he 
delivers these like really great

708
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,900
one-liners but like, often his 
speeches are kind of Meandering 

709
00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:56,000
and their self contradictory and
and you really have to kind of 

710
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,000
work to find the the 
provocations. 

711
00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:04,100
So, I don't know, like, I think 
he's just somebody who's careful

712
00:36:04,300 --> 00:36:07,700
and, you know, kind of always 
like changing his mind and so 

713
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:11,300
like those, you know, Twitter 
doesn't doesn't sort of work 

714
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:13,600
with that also. 
I mean, Twitter is Facebook's 

715
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,300
competitor. 
I mean, he's kind of had this 

716
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:19,100
position, you know, for 
Twitter's entire existence that 

717
00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:20,900
Twitter is awful and Facebook's 
awesome. 

718
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:22,700
Although, I don't think he 
really uses much Facebook. 

719
00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:25,400
He's about to say I did, how 
often is he posting his 

720
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,500
vacation? 
He has a Facebook page, but I II

721
00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:32,500
think he's not a, yeah, he's 
definitely not an active, he's 

722
00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:34,600
like not getting in with your 
granny On Cue and on or 

723
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,400
whatever. 
Where's like seasteading and 

724
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,200
life extension. 
Obviously, to ideas closely 

725
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,400
associated with teal. 
It is see, studying daddy, 

726
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,700
basically picked New Zealand 
over that, or what's the state 

727
00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:50,800
of seasteading? 
What's the state of Life 

728
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,300
Extension? 
As you see it? 

729
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,300
I think both of these things 
were part are part of like the 

730
00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:58,600
image and like and in some ways,
like his Embrace of them and 

731
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,300
like the very public Look 
Embrace was partly about like, 

732
00:37:01,300 --> 00:37:04,500
conveying something and you 
don't conveying his both of 

733
00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:06,800
those things. 
Like sort of convey parts of 

734
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,800
teals worldview. 
Like, the life expectancy 

735
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,800
extension thing obviously is 
about technology being a 

736
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,500
possible way to like, save us 
all. 

737
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:17,000
And and seasteading is sort of a
critique of regulations and 

738
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,300
things like that. 
See setting is very much. 

739
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,000
I mean, the idea of having 
living on a platform in the 

740
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,800
ocean is dead but the kind of 
underlying idea that there 

741
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:32,400
should be options for Wealthy 
tech-savvy people to like leave 

742
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,800
the, you know, the legal 
framework of the United States 

743
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,900
is like very much alive. 
I mean, Balaji is, you know, is 

744
00:37:39,900 --> 00:37:41,900
pushing this. 
And there are a lot of the 

745
00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:45,000
seasteading guys are right now. 
Involved with this Charter 

746
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,300
cities movement, which is 
basically like a c-stand on land

747
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:51,800
where like instead of instead of
like having a floating platform,

748
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,000
we just like find a you know 
developing country that like 

749
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,400
really wants some you know 
really want some entrepreneurs 

750
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,800
to live dime. 
Simple, I'm more sympathetic to 

751
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,500
the idea. 
Honestly, reading the book. 

752
00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:06,000
It is, it's like, wow, just 
because we happen to be born in 

753
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,400
a certain time. 
We live in this world where, 

754
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,800
like, all sort of governments 
already set and locked, you 

755
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,100
can't create anything new and we
should just accept it. 

756
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:19,900
Like if we have these Innovative
people, you know, let them 

757
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:23,600
experiment on government. 
I mean, yeah, it sounds 

758
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,300
logistically hard. 
But I'm sympathetic, is this, 

759
00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:29,100
the living on the sea in a reg? 
Sounds terrible to me. 

760
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:33,000
That part, I don't like. 
But the idea of a city governed 

761
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,400
by sort of, I don't know, some 
blockchain or whatever, at least

762
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,200
experimenting with it. 
I'm open. 

763
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,700
I mean, the thing is though, I 
might agree with you be better 

764
00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:45,500
to live in like ponderous then 
it you know, on an oil rig in 

765
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:47,200
the you know, South Pacific or 
something. 

766
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:52,300
But like I think that it really,
you know, runs counter to a lot 

767
00:38:52,300 --> 00:38:55,100
of ideas that are pretty well 
agreed upon. 

768
00:38:55,100 --> 00:38:58,000
And, you know, one of which is 
that, you know, when you are 

769
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,000
very successful, You, you know, 
our responsibility to like, give

770
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,400
back to society and both in the 
form of, you know, paying your 

771
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,200
fair share of taxes, the same 
percentage, you know, I don't 

772
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:10,900
think I don't think, like, in 
this world view, we're not 

773
00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:13,800
asking them to pay more than 
than, than a normal person were 

774
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,500
asking to just pay the same 
amount or even probably and in 

775
00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:19,400
real at reality, right? 
Like a hell of a lot less like a

776
00:39:19,408 --> 00:39:22,300
percentage. 
I support Peter teal pain more 

777
00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:25,000
than his fair share of time and 
I think like basically that's 

778
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,200
what see setting is about. 
It's not about finding new forms

779
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,200
of governance. 
It's and and when you actually 

780
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:31,700
listen to what they're saying, 
right? 

781
00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:33,900
It's not about where you can't. 
You can have the same frame to 

782
00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:35,300
the whole Miami conversation 
there. 

783
00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:38,400
Like Miami is great. 
It's like Miami has low taxes. 

784
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,800
Like simplify yeah, that's the 
argument on seasteading they're 

785
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,600
trying to evade taxes, they hate
taxes, right? 

786
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,300
And I just think, like trying 
to, and there are good reasons 

787
00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:51,500
like the other rules that 
they're trying to get around. 

788
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:53,700
Like they're good reasons. 
We have those rules. 

789
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:58,000
Like, a lot of these guys are 
banging the lab leak drum, you 

790
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,100
know, 24/7. 
Like, you know, it's gonna be 

791
00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:03,600
gain-of-function, research is 
going to be a great, you know, 

792
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,600
it's going to be great to do 
gain-of-function research in 

793
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,100
these see stands or or like, you
know, these like the kinds of 

794
00:40:09,100 --> 00:40:12,000
pharmaceutical experiments. 
Like one of the big reasons for 

795
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,700
doing this is to be able to do 
pharmaceutical experiments 

796
00:40:14,700 --> 00:40:16,100
without the regulation of the 
FDA. 

797
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:19,600
Like I think there's some good 
reasons that we have the FDA and

798
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,800
and those reasons like often 
transcend National boundaries 

799
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:25,600
and things like that. 
So I don't know. 

800
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:29,900
I think it's I'm not really sure
I think the geologist mostly 

801
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:33,500
just getting around paying taxes
and creating a better regulatory

802
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:37,100
climate for for business which 
is not a particularly new idea, 

803
00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:38,200
right? 
I mean, that's always what 

804
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,400
strikes me is so funny about 
this Silicon Valley, you know, 

805
00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:44,700
disruption and new new styles of
thinking is that when you really

806
00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:47,700
break it down to its essential 
elements of who, it's benefiting

807
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:50,500
it really feels. 
As pro-business is anything that

808
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:53,600
like, you know, JP Morgan would 
have been in favor of or like it

809
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:54,800
is where the crypto people would
say. 

810
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,900
You have to be better at 
creating memes, right? 

811
00:40:56,900 --> 00:41:01,600
Me making a better meme of the 
Idea is the genius because then 

812
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,000
it catches on if you presented 
as seasteading instead of lower 

813
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,600
taxes, you know that idea has 
virality to the. 

814
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,100
Crypto thing is really 
interesting with teal as well 

815
00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:16,100
because in a lot like in its 
most pure and and I got I guess,

816
00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:19,600
like innocent sense, or what it 
should be standing for crypto is

817
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,900
about returning, Silicon Valley 
to its core beliefs, which is 

818
00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:26,600
that it is, you know, does 
somewhat independent of Banks 

819
00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:29,000
and it's decentralized and it's 
like impossible. 

820
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:32,400
Powers individuals and 
communities of people who agree 

821
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,500
on things to create a system and
that stands apart to almost like

822
00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:39,700
the monopolies have big 
companies, which are, you know, 

823
00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:43,100
in contrast to its to big people
are sorry in contrast to 

824
00:41:43,107 --> 00:41:45,500
individuality and, and freedom 
on. 

825
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:49,500
And from that standpoint, I mean
where does Teal sit with with 

826
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:52,100
crypto these days. 
Obviously he's in favor of it 

827
00:41:52,100 --> 00:41:55,400
from like a Libertarian 
standpoint but you know is he 

828
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,000
then he was like China's going 
to he's all over the place is 

829
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,200
all over the place, right? 
Well, okay, so he a couple 

830
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,800
things number one, you know, I 
think he's one of the kind of 

831
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,100
ideological kind of Godfathers 
of this of some of these ideas. 

832
00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:12,200
You know, PayPal was talking 
about these, some of the same 

833
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,200
ideas about digital money as a 
way to kind of undercut the 

834
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,900
power of Banks and regulators 
and even National sovereignty. 

835
00:42:20,900 --> 00:42:25,700
You know back in the you know, 
late 90s, early 2000s, teal has 

836
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:28,600
owned Bitcoin, I assume he's 
still owns you know quite a bit 

837
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,000
of crypto. 
Although don't know. 

838
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,200
And he, you know, has been 
investing, you know, heavily in 

839
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,300
crypto companies. 
Eric you mentioned the, the 

840
00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:40,000
China comments my read on that. 
So, just in case, people don't 

841
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,100
know. 
Earlier this year, teal 

842
00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:45,500
described Bitcoin as a potential
weapon of the Chinese state, 

843
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:50,000
which is a strange thing for a 
self-professed China, Hawk and 

844
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,300
Bitcoin Bowl to kind of put 
together in one sentence and 

845
00:42:53,300 --> 00:42:56,800
kind of sent, you know, crypto 
heads, you know, basically off 

846
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,000
them, you know, it basically 
like it. 

847
00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:02,600
A really great way to like get a
lot of crypto heads to sort of 

848
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,100
lose their minds because they're
all trying to find out like, 

849
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:07,600
sort of explanations for why, 
you know why? 

850
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,900
One of the guys on their team 
would say something like that. 

851
00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:14,000
Now my read on it is that teal 
was pushing and maybe is still 

852
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,600
pushing an argument as pretty 
similar to the one that 

853
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,200
Zuckerberg used on Tick Tock 
basically, like if we do not 

854
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,000
create a friendly regulatory 
environment for crypto in the 

855
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,400
United States, the Chinese will 
do so and they'll do it in a way

856
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,900
that we don't like and that. 
And for that reason, you know, 

857
00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:31,400
Don't mess with, you know, don't
mess with American tech 

858
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,300
companies. 
I kind of think that's what he 

859
00:43:33,300 --> 00:43:35,600
was trying to do with that 
comment. 

860
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,500
Although, I don't really know 
yesterday when we were recording

861
00:43:39,500 --> 00:43:43,600
this, you know, on the 21st on 
the 20th, he hope I didn't break

862
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,800
the fourth wall there. 
Guys know it's fun. 

863
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,400
Making the yeah. 
Okay, but life he said that 

864
00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:55,800
Bitcoin is may be undervalued 
and it's also or that he's under

865
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,500
invested in Bitcoin and that 
it's an indication of just How 

866
00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:03,400
broken you know, Society is that
Bitcoin is is worth, you know, 

867
00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:07,400
60 something thousand dollars a 
coin, which those two things are

868
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,800
kind of In conflict. 
Because like so if you think 

869
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,300
Bitcoin is an indication that 
Society about to collapse, I 

870
00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:16,900
guess then it could still be 
undervalued so I don't know. 

871
00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:20,600
I mean he's definitely like 
interested in Bitcoin. 

872
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:23,600
I also think he's somebody there
were conspiracy theories around 

873
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,300
the China comments right where 
people were like, oh maybe he's 

874
00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:28,700
trying to buy Bitcoin cheap I 
thought. 

875
00:44:28,700 --> 00:44:30,200
Yeah. 
And like, I don't think that's 

876
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:31,900
crazy, right? 
Teal is a traitor. 

877
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:35,300
And he's somebody who is, you 
know, he was, he was a macro 

878
00:44:35,300 --> 00:44:37,100
investor before he was a 
start-up guy. 

879
00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:40,200
Like you could totally see him 
trying to come up with some 

880
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,700
trade. 
I don't know II. 

881
00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:46,300
Don't know, enough about like 
the legality of, you know, of 

882
00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:48,200
this kind of thing. 
So, so it's hard to know if 

883
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,000
that's even a possibility, or 
whatever. 

884
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,100
But anyway, it's I think some of
those conspiracy theories are 

885
00:44:53,100 --> 00:44:55,900
kind of intriguing as well. 
Let's end on life extension. 

886
00:44:55,900 --> 00:44:59,000
I ask you about that, and then 
we, yeah, sorry. 

887
00:44:59,100 --> 00:45:00,800
No, it was my fault. 
We dragged you all over the 

888
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,300
place, but you know, what is 
what is this state of Life 

889
00:45:03,300 --> 00:45:05,600
Extension investment from teal 
world? 

890
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,200
So my sense is that he was 
pretty engaged in it about ten 

891
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,700
years ago or a little more than 
10 years ago and hasn't really 

892
00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:14,900
done a lot. 
So he gave a bunch of money to 

893
00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:17,200
this group called sends that was
started by this guy. 

894
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:21,000
Aubrey de grey hasn't given 
anything to them in years, you 

895
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,600
know. 
And of course, Aubrey de grey 

896
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,300
was then was dismissed from, you
know, was fire, there's a sort 

897
00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:28,200
of ongoing, I think, you know, 
allegations of sexual 

898
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,200
harassment. 
And it's unclear like what's 

899
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,300
going on with that group or what
its future is. 

900
00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:36,700
And and he hasn't made that many
investments in this field for a 

901
00:45:36,700 --> 00:45:40,300
really long time. 
And that, you know, combined 

902
00:45:40,300 --> 00:45:43,700
with the fact that he was, you 
know, as far as I can tell just 

903
00:45:43,700 --> 00:45:48,000
completely indifferent to covid 
if not, if not being kind of 

904
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,100
happy about covid. 
Seeing can I say it was like a 

905
00:45:50,100 --> 00:45:52,700
moral disease or some talked 
about it as a side? 

906
00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:56,100
I think a psychological symptom,
but I have to go back and look 

907
00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:59,700
at the exact quote, but but you 
know, his view was Trump got 

908
00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:03,300
covid, right? 
And maybe he didn't, maybe he, I

909
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:05,900
think teal would probably argue 
with Trump at the margins, you 

910
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:08,400
know, in terms of the execution 
or, you know, some of those 

911
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,100
crazy, press conferences, 
whatever. 

912
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,200
But that trumps like refusal to 
lock the economy down and his, 

913
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,400
you know, was correct and that 
people were freaking out, 

914
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,900
unnecessarily about it. 
And to me, that's a pretty odd 

915
00:46:20,900 --> 00:46:24,300
position for somebody who has 
like, a professed interest in 

916
00:46:24,300 --> 00:46:26,400
life extension, when you're 
talking about, you know, 

917
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:29,400
Millions around the world. 
Millions of Guys around the 

918
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,400
world being lost to this 
pandemic, you know, nearly a 

919
00:46:31,408 --> 00:46:33,800
million or 750,000 or whatever 
in the u.s. 

920
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,100
So I kind of think the life 
extension thing is is a bit of a

921
00:46:37,107 --> 00:46:39,000
pose. 
Now now, since the book came out

922
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,700
of his life extension, right? 
That's all. 

923
00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:45,700
Libertarianism for me, not for 
thee. 

924
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,300
It's like, no. 
My life needs to be extended. 

925
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,800
Not yours. 
I'm in New Zealand. 

926
00:46:50,900 --> 00:46:53,300
I've heard from some folks after
the book came out and they said,

927
00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:54,800
no, no, he's still interested in
it. 

928
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,600
Just his own life, right? 
So, so it's kind of like, yeah, 

929
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:58,900
I have no doubt that he wants 
to. 

930
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:02,400
To increase his own life span 
and and stay healthy or 

931
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,500
whatever. 
But I think in terms of like 

932
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,200
really backing research here, he
just hasn't done much and he 

933
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,300
doesn't seem all that 
interested, as far as I can 

934
00:47:10,300 --> 00:47:13,500
tell, in my mind the best, the 
best industry to be in life 

935
00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:14,900
extension. 
Because if it doesn't work out, 

936
00:47:14,900 --> 00:47:19,100
what are they going to do? 
Thanks so much for coming on, 

937
00:47:19,100 --> 00:47:22,100
it's a great book, everybody 
should buy the contrarian, 

938
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,400
especially Peter teal, is only 
going to become more and more 

939
00:47:25,700 --> 00:47:28,900
powerful over time. 
I think good guy to know read 

940
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,200
About your new Overlord. 
Thanks so much for coming on. 

941
00:47:32,300 --> 00:47:34,200
Thanks guys, really, really 
appreciate the time. 

942
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:34,800
This is fun.