Welcome. Hey, it's Eric here with Tom.
Welcome to dead cat. I just got back from Miami a
couple days ago. I was there for some of the Art
Basel stuff. I interviewed key through boy at
a The pre-money conference that was hosted by 500 Global wheat,
500, Global, by the way, like the renaming of 500 startups.
What is? Yeah, they rebranded like, I
feel like everybody missed it. Sort of weird because I feel
like 500 startups was so known but I think clear, I knew
exactly what that meant. Yeah, I think they're trying to
do more growth. I do think his strength of
theirs is sort of that. They invest all over the world.
So there's how much I have to do how much of this had to do with
the mmm. Erosion of Dave McClure and
their need to, like, separate themselves from what he had
built. Yeah.
You really get right to it. I mean, he was definitely sort
of. I ask somebody, you know, like,
did he come up at their LP meeting because NLP meeting
before? And it didn't seem like he was
coming up explicitly. I mean, my sense is Dave has
been buying out steaks in a bunch of 500 companies.
So even though he's he wasn't there and his, you know, kept
sort of at Bay. He's very much like in the
ecosystem, still. I think we're in this
interesting point. I mean Katie wrote the stories,
right? Yeah, it's a shame.
She's not on today. By the way, we should tell our
listeners Katie at the last minute, had to bow out because
breaking news in the doj front around gerrymandering.
So that's why it's just your regular host.
Not an excuse, not not special guest.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean Dave, I don't know, I can't make the Declaration, but
I do feel like some of the lightly can't Salled people in
Silicon Valley, you know, I'm not going to be the one to beat
the drum that they shouldn't be able to.
That's a whole different topic. I was just wondering if the
renaming of the company had to do from them saying like, well,
look, that was his project. Yeah, clearly under flamed out
in a way, that doesn't reflect well on the brand anyway, but
Miami Miami. It was fun.
I mean, there was so much traffic, I tweeted about it at
afterwards, you know, that it was just like, Eating ubirr all
day. Like everybody sort of saying
Silicon Valley should relocate to Silicon Valley, you know, one
of the founders fund guys tweeted that in the you know,
Miami mayor retweeted it like, I'm here to help.
And then all these Miami people were arguing in my mentions
about whether Miami really does have the infrastructure or not.
I think many people don't think so, but beside besides the
traffic. I mean, it was just, it does
feel like, You know, feels like the pandemics barely there.
I mean that's true in a lot of these sort of, you know, it like
resurfaces, every I know I'm not nobody care for roshi way.
You know, you me was every we're just over a year now from the
initial mayor of Miami tweet, how can I help that quote,
unquote, kicked it off, right? And that, at least technically
got these people out of their shells to start talking only
about tech in Miami. But the sense that I got talking
to people in December of twenty twenty, Bout.
It was like yeah I think they really liked it because of no
taxes and they don't really care about the pandemic as well.
I interviewed Keith, I mean and I prodded him a little bit on
this point. I mean, he basically says that
he and his Husband set like a threshold Point, unreasonable
taxes, you know. So they wouldn't move to
Virginia, but they were willing to move to places, you know,
they had more attacks, may be that in Florida and then they
sort of decided among that and I find that believable.
But yeah, certainly Only taxes are a big.
I mean, dude, add tons of exits. I mean, doordash went public a
firm, went public. I mean, he just, he has a lot of
money coming in. So, taxes, are top of mind,
right? That's the reason to choose
Florida over Virginia, but the the from a pandemic standpoint,
everything's open. Everyone's just chilling, right?
I mean the hotel. Lobbies is so funny girl hotel
and like, you know, New York or something like that.
Where you're wearing the mask? And then Miami were there.
No mass in a hotel lobby. Bobby's.
I mean Keith was saying, you know, like he had to wear a
mask, you know, because like the 500 conference I'm sure they had
like some organizer. That's like parent, you know, he
had to wear masks briefly there and he was like, you know, I've
only had to wear a mask like, you know, in doctors offices or
something, you know, he's it goes against his message, a
little bit that nobody's making you wear a mask in Miami because
he had to wear it leading up to the speaking at the conference.
What would you say is the overlay between?
You know, the web three or To aficionados and the people who
are of no interest in like Health Department regulations
and suggestions on mask-wearing, I don't know that there's a
perfume. Okay, I mean, it's an
interesting question. I mean there was, it was web 3.
I mean crypto was just ubiquitous and it was super
interesting after the panel, you know.
Some, some guy comes up to me and is I mean Super Earnest and
I, you know, I I think it's an interesting project and you
really do get get the sense that there's real, like brain power
behind some of these crypto projects in a way that's, you
know, reminiscent of, you know, social media, many many, many
years ago. No, or write or sort of the
on-demand economy economy more recently, so it gives me, I feel
like that alone gives me the most optimism about, the Crypt
smart people are working on it. But did you, I feel like it's
the responsibility of journalists going to these
conferences now to come back, From it with a changed world
view and perspective on the entire movement.
Like, you have to have some sub Natori article, which is there.
Like after four days here in which I talk to a dozen people
in a Lobby. I get it or I think this is the
greatest Folly. Like you can't come back from it
being like, well, some good, some bad.
Like it reminds me of, I mean, you wrote a thing about it so
I'm sure you'll say it now but it reminds me of a couple of
years ago when you know what VidCon is.
Yeah. Yeah yeah influencers.
Right. Yeah yeah.
I mean the Creator Hammer went sir.
Yeah. I mean YouTubers started off as
mostly in Anaheim and there would be like a yearly column
coming out from reporters being like oh I get it.
My mind has been warped. I didn't understand how big it
was like, how important YouTube was there, right?
That's true. Yeah, to a degree.
I mean we can we can talk about a different time round button
but either way, the point was that, like journalist had to be
like, you know, red pilled After they came back from these
things. And so is that is that you?
I mean, because you came in necessarily skeptical.
So yeah, I'm not as I'm pretty bullet.
Would you have gone if you weren't asked to interview
Keith, how about that? No, no.
And I mean, they paid for my flight and I mean, it was good
to go. I mean, what your I was help
you. Thank you for the disclosure.
It's fine. I know, I mean, but I'm glad I
went, I mean, they set up the conference during sort of Art
Basel. Honestly, I don't even know what
like people were in town for our bezel.
So I could see a bunch of people but it's not like, you know, I
saw public. But I wasn't really proactively
like going to galleries or whatever.
So it's funny for me to claim I was at Art Basel and really I
was at this sub conference. Anyway totally beside the point
but the other tangent I wanted to go on was just the point that
I feel like there's this interesting thing where writers
are getting pushed back for being open to crypto at all, you
know what I mean? Push back from who though, I can
never tell. It's just like they tweeted out
something. Vaguely positive about the
movement will like a see a platformer.
It seemed like Like, you know, he rationalized in people sort
of got angry with him and the Kevin ruse piece in the New York
Times where he sort of gave a very descriptive descriptive
coverage of an FDNY. See it felt like he got pushed
back for that. And Ryan Broderick has been
writing about this. I mean, it just feels like
people are very, you know, a certain set of like leftist
types online or just like trying to combat sort of media Euphoria
about a And but it just like it's fun.
I mean, I think it's smart to like sort of tease out sort of
the promise, you know, without promising that something's going
to happen. The leftist part of it is kind
of strange to me because, you know, most of the people that I
talked to about it will make like a very Collective argument
about the value of it, right? I mean, decentralization is
supposed to push away from Monopoly and is supposed to push
away a concentration of Power by a few Tech firms.
So you can argue whether or not that's like to the benefit of A
leftist movement and the idea of like, well, I mean, but crypto
is trying to financial eyes. Everything, you know, in some
ways, the enforcer free and now they want everything to have a
price. But, you know, looking at it
from another perspective, people are producing content for free
and not getting paid for it. That seems super unfriendly to
workers. You know, if we found out
creative ways that people could own the things that they create,
I don't know. That seems fairly Progressive to
me, it seems like it's a pretty, it's a pretty Easy Elysian
between what crypto and decentralization offers and what
like a leftist worldview would agree to.
Like it doesn't seem like it has to be at odds with excited for
the fact that there is financialization behind it and
it does create like a market behind everything, right?
And a sign of your financial value at the core, a lot of the
people talking about web 3 and crypto are just like, very
hopeful that coins that they already own or going to go up in
value, right? Actual utility of them is pretty
secondary and is more of a marketing.
Marketing channel to inflate the value of their Holdings than
anything else. I think that's a true obvious
obviously true critique. And then lots of people going
into starting, companies around these coins, or n ftes, or just
seeing that you can get the money before you do the work,
which is, you know, obviously just like a huge incentive for
fraud and failure. So I think that's all true.
I just think they'll be successes despite that explain
to me your your disagreement with Max reads.
Is because I read it just before we started recording and his
argument is essentially what he was just trying to do like an
explainer almost of like, here, we are trying to create a
framework, right? Right.
And basically, he was saying web 3.
You can either say you agree that it is a revolutionary new
form of what, you know, the internet and Community online
community can offer, or you can say it's just pure hype and it's
pushed by people like Andreessen Horowitz and other big money to
investors that want to see it coming.
To action like into reality because that as investors would
benefit them. And then his take was basically
like, what if you just don't want to have to engage with it
at all? Essentially, well, I think he
was floating the possibility that you could be bullish, on
web three, not because you believe in the technology but
because you believe in the power of Silicon Valley, to make it
happen through economic and cultural, Troll power and
basically was trying to separate the idea of bullishness
bullishness and bearishness from like, you know, a Raw versus
like a skepticism or moral approbation about the
technology. And so he's ruining was that he
can hold a position that he thinks web 30 is going to
matter, not because it's a great technology but because firms
like Andreessen, Horowitz can make it happen and then he can
say he's skeptical, How about the value of web 3 and why we're
sort of being led along the path to it, right?
But and your and your disagreement with it as that
Tech fundamentally can't force something like they can't make
fetch happen. Yeah.
They're not. Because they're right.
They're not. I mean they're rich but like
again you know the piece sort of concludes with the point my
rebuttal, it concludes with the point that, you know, they tried
this with Clubhouse. You know they tried to bring all
the power. They could all the Cultural
power money, you know, whatever to make it work.
And it seems like it's struggling as Insider is written
and that really like the power of technology and this has been
my position, you know, for most of my time now, covering Silicon
Valley that the power of these Tech billionaires is the actual
platforms. They control that the actual
technology itself is super powerful.
That, you know, people are addicted to their phones, that
can't give it up people complained, the very people
reporters who, Complain about technology are extremely
addicted to it. And the only thing that will
replace their current addiction is a better technology that you
know, is even more powerfully manipulative of our psychology.
And so whether web three matters are not is really a function of
whether it's a better technology than we have today.
And whether we're, you know, psychologically hooked into it
more completely than whatever we're using today that it
replaces right, either more addictive, or it solves a
problem. That we are trying to solve and
and the solution is elegant and useful useful by the masses.
But also I think that people give too much credit to the
individuals like a great man of History, within an industry, to
be able to push a specific technology or movement sink like
like Facebook was going to happen whether or not Mark
Zuckerberg existed right there was you know with the ad you
know advents of I mean on the fucking internet.
I mean just people. We'll be able to wanting to
connect with each other and then really what makes it take off in
a hugely valuable way is, you know, the shrinking of computers
to handheld devices. There was just an obvious Next
Step that, like, within these devices, people are going to
want to connect with each other, on the backs of the
infrastructure of the internet created.
I don't think whether or not, you know, Excel put money into
Facebook that many years ago. Would have forced this to happen
one way or the other when it wouldn't have.
I agree with that. The only thing I think you agree
with this is that all Silly them.
Once it happens given the power of network effects, Mark
Zuckerberg personally is extremely influential because he
happens to control this technology.
That's hard to replicate a billion times over because
people only want to join so many Network.
So while he may have been the one to move first, if he hadn't
somebody else might have done it, it's still super.
He has a lot of control over it. Now, because of how its
centralized think about all the failed products that Facebook is
put, Doubt that if they've hope to redefine the company in the
past, right, right. Like all the different apps that
they build, that they put out, that no one even remembers
anymore. I think we agree.
I'm just saying, if the in apps, where they succeed to build the
core features, that make them work and become addictive, and
useful, and all that, there are lots of sort of secondary
decisions that don't sort of really change that one way or
the other that them Mark, Zuckerberg has the power to
influence be. Here's my question to, which Max
starts to deal with a little bit He links to a few other articles
that I found interesting like by Adam Davidson who's like a big
crypto bowl or web three Bowl right now, which is like, what
is the need to ascribe morality to this technology right now?
Like whether or not it's good or bad that seems to be like
underpinning. A lot of the arguments is that
like it's not enough to say. I think it's bullshit because I
am, you know, this is my take or I'm taking a stance on the
future but also like and it is a bad thing.
What if you like people hate the the tech fatalism which is sort
of what I'm talking about, which I used to Scoff at, when I came
it's into Silicon Valley, which is just sort of, if the
technology is good, people are going to adopt it.
There's really nothing you can do.
I mean, that that's a morally neutral thing.
I think is understandably disturbing to some people, but I
just think having giving it a moral layer and saying it's
terrible. You're just not going to be able
to scold enough people away from working on a technology that
people then can't resist right back to the Miami Conference.
How did you kind of gauge the optimism there?
Because because that to me has been like the most compelling
aspect of web, three Beyond. Like just you know, the
complications of its intrinsic value is like as the people that
are working on, it really think it's going to be a great thing.
And I feel like all the optimism and Silicon Valley that had
once, been funneled toward, you know, whatever social media or
self-driving, cars or name, the next advancement seems to have
coalesce uniquely within within web 3 or crypto whatever you
want to call it. And I mean, you can be cynical
to that and say like, you know, these, you know, fucking blue
skies, don't know what they're talking about.
And, you know, they've just found a new thing to be wrong
about or naive about. I find it kind of interesting.
It's like, well you know, we can we can embrace them element of
the optimism and it did it seem like, a, particularly optimistic
crew out there? Yeah, it's definitely more
optimistic. I mean, you'll hear the fucking
good morning thing, right? Like it's baked into the
ideology and I do think, you know, people would say short of
shutting. Running the progressivism allows
them to be less you know self-flagellating more
optimistic and that's certainly with the sort of Keith strain
would say about Miami. I mean, II I thought there was
an interest in, I talked about this in the newsletter just sort
of Two parallel panel universes, you know, on the one hand,
Balaji srinivasan spoke. He was, you know, I guess you
would put him in the optimistic. He spoke by video conference.
Not only by videoconference, you made it sound very
cloak-and-dagger. He was in an undisclosed
location. You know, it was just sort of
like, you know, I don't know, there was nothing.
It was just funny because he's yellow, where is a docks
obsessed with. Yeah, exactly.
Privacy. And All that.
So yeah it fit in sort of his message but you know, even
though he sort of represents the camp that wants to be more
optimistic, you know, he's obsessed with whoa culture.
You know, it's very I mean, he has a fascinating framework
which she calls. BTC nyt and CCP, you know,
Bitcoin New York Times Chinese Communist party, which to him
represent, you know, sort of different extremes on the
political map and he doesn't, it might sound like, He's in BTC,
but he professes to want to be in some, some midpoint between
those. But but anyway, my point is, you
have sort of Balaji talking about wokes, you have keys or
boy talking about like pattern-matching, you know, and
and clearly from his Twitter, you know, and he's he's donating
to Republicans, you know, he's just he's very much not with
sort of the leftist political movement and then you have these
other panels where it's like you know you have diverse VCS and
you haven't sort of the Miami locals who are all talking
about? About including Miami residents
and all that and sort of much more Progressive politics, and
it did feel like they existed in sort of toe to Total different
universes. Which were not really required
to reconcile or fight with each other.
But we explain to me more about ballot is this bulge, he's still
talking about his issue with the New York Times as, you know, a
misleading organization that is anti-tech.
And yeah, it's not okay. Right.
I mean, it still seems like a ranking.
There's like at the top BTC like that is like a lawful good and
New York Times the chaotic easy. CP is about control, you know,
it's sort of the fascist and then in terms of democracy, you
know, see he actually explains a well.
I mean, the thing is, the guy is smart, like I'm not discounting
him at all like and I actually, you know, I think he's more
interesting than most people he blocks me.
So now I have to go to incognito.
Um, to find the Tweet because he blocked had it wired.
He blocked me because I reached out to a friend of his for an
interview request with him and that be members of the media.
You're right. He faced he has to go direct,
but there is a, you know, hypocrisy that it's like, oh,
you have to go direct except to the people that he would,
theoretically, it could reach directly.
Yeah. Directed to get to Jim.
Just just the idea that people think that you can profess to be
a freethinker while blocking people because they just asked
interview. It's not like I Bullying him to
enter you know, anyway, communist Capital CCP, you must
submit. Whoa, capital N YT.
You must sympathize crypto capital B.
TC, you must be Sovereign. And so, he thinks they're all
different forms of ice control. I will read that, I don't know
why, but I just got interested by his explanation.
I love open, invitation apology to come on the show, be well,
now he's going to block me. Yeah, I don't think he had, you
have it, you have a desire to engage with his views, right?
Like, Actually I just I just feel like these people don't
want to be in a situation where they really have to not even
from like a debate me sort of like Ben Shapiro versus, you
know, but just like somebody who isn't already on your team who
genuinely wants to sort of dig apart.
Like, what, what do you mean by this assertion?
Like what are the limits? Well, it's funny that he blocked
to, I don't want to spend too much time on this because I
think too much power, but like it's funny that he blocked 24.
It wasn't that you tweeted at him, right?
You reached out through like an Flying connection.
And that was enough for him to be like a fucking gun.
And now, we almost proximate thing.
You know, I'm sure I mentioned, but it's sweet.
It's other piece with these people in general, which is that
they want to carry out their grievances entirely through
Twitter, right? That's what I mean about the
parallel panels right there in great conflict on the internet.
But then in real in the real world, you know, it's like these
very nice sort of that was the funniest thing about, you know,
Flash from the past the clubhouse.
Where they got chaise a boot in the San Francisco FDA on there.
And you know, complete softball interview where he just walked
all over 90. Giving a point of view, one of
your better posts, thank you. And then supposedly near the
end, you know, David Sachs was going to come in there and
really you know, fuck shit up by posing some hard questions to
him but it never happened. It was real like, you know, hold
me back bro. Like NBA violating David Sachs
could have done? Well.
Yeah, I'm sure these guys could like I think they know those
guys were not ready but David. Well, is good, we'll never know.
Now until like, you know, trailer puts it up.
If he likes to monologue, I feel like in the all in how you
listen to all and I not lately but really I want to be on
record saying, I think it's not a terrible show.
We're very envious, they're climbing.
I mean, they're like Jason tweeted to detail our test for
your points of view or another subject but like to save tons of
production. Yeah.
You know, strictly? Yeah.
Another time. But every time they every time
they actually are confronted with the object of their
derision and Yeah, I'm sure the panels were are very friendly,
and even that all in podcasts, they obviously Clash a lot.
But, you know, it's like for rich guys.
Nobody is really the left wing of the democratic party.
I start, I'm still impressed that he blocked, you just for
reaching out to to, to want, to talk to.
It's going to be like oh you shit on him and I but that was
how I, you know, I can't ask him, you know.
Like I always think it's a reporter.
Like what's the worst that can happen if I just reach out to
the guy and like to be honest that is a fairly low end of the
spectrum. The other end of it is Like, oh,
they're going to like publish the emails that I sent try to
talk to them which does happen not infrequently.
From kind of unhinged people that you're trying to talk to
they push away. Push all G is interviewed, as
has Paul Graham has blocked me since I interviewed him at the
information. So 2014, when you wrote that
story, that would put the information on the map, we can
link to it in the show description.
So really stick the knife in, as your commitment to that piece,
he is not blocked to me, but I unfollowed him because I I've
done like a Twitter cleanse, I've decided I should only use
the app to further my stories and journalistic.
Career, did you want to talk about Jack Dorsey a little bit?
I mean, we're getting a little further from it, but sure sure.
Jack Dorsey lost a job and changed his other jobs.
I don't know. Parent company objective.
I don't know how you do you explain it in one week.
I mean, talk about PR strength. Yeah, he had a great
Thanksgiving. I feel like, how do I change the
narrative from the fact that I'm not going to CEO of social media
company. I run.
So the stories that have come out since about his stepping
down was that this was like the long gestating, you know,
accomplishment of Elliott management that like, when they
break and they bought their activists position a couple of
years ago, even though they supposedly reach the daytime,
like, the wheels were still in motion behind the scenes, like
to oust him. Well, they got a board seat and
they sent growth expectations, which they were never get to it.
It wasn't going to me, right? I mean, nobody expected this.
I mean, I don't cover the beat Beat that closely but it didn't
seem like the Twitter reporters were, you know, trying to chase
this down. I mean, I'm not in a newsroom
anymore, but I didn't get the sense that this was something
that's super Savvy. Insiders were anticipating.
It's just more like we want to let the world know that we're
very crypto blockchain first, that's as far as it goes, right,
it's like if we're a financial company then you know, the
future is all about this. And so we need to change our
name, which I actually kind of get.
I mean it seems silly. It's a very influential pool.
I mean, clearly there, there have been a number and you
probably know more about this than me.
But there have been a number of social networks over the years
that have used Twitter's graph to try and build out networks,
right? I mean, people like steal it,
but sure, I mean, there was the whole live video phenomenon from
like 2015 companies like meerkat and Periscope, they bought.
And so it's like you have. I mean, this is sort of what we
were saying earlier with Zach, right?
If you get a product that works that people want to work, then
it can Take off. And obviously, they have the
audience to build off of. They just haven't figured out
anything, that's truly, yes, or no viral, right?
But that's, there's a difference between, you know, monetizing an
audience much better and actually growing to a much
larger one, like one is a product issue.
The other one is a business issue and from like a business
standpoint, they've been successful in growing their,
they basically built a business off of telling large Brands.
Look, if you want to be where the conversation is happening,
you Advertise on Twitter and so like a huge amount of their
revenue comes from like Samsung announcing a new phone release
or like movie studios pushing out, like, the release of a new
film is like event based advertising, but they had done a
really poor job, getting like direct-to-consumer stuff.
You know, like the Click based advertising that Facebook and
snap. Another People are cleaning up
on because that's not the way people use Twitter, but they
were making a lot of money from it.
But again, that's so like, you know, if you look at their
finances or like their business over the last couple years,
Pretty good. I do think I'm developing this
view but I I I think there are lots of sort of random
regulations that would make more sense than, you know,
anti-monopoly regulation that's sort of where I've, I'm
personally building to and it does feel like we could have a
law that says social media companies need to stop
maximizing. They can't try to get users to
stay on their apps for more than after an hour.
They need to start. Putting up barriers to them to
want to stay on like they need to distance and you know it
looked just like it was like cigarettes or something, you
know, just like you put a warning on the packet you know
there needs to be sort of you've been on this for a long time or
a literally you have to slow down sort of the dopamine hits
or whatever, you know II do think there's.
So I my point with the story is, obviously maximizing for time,
spent in the app can get extreme and they are hacking.
In human psychology. And there are things that
governments could do to say without breaking up companies or
even attacking companies. Just say, hey, we don't think as
policy people should spend more than an hour a day on social
media and they're allowed, but you should discourage them and
you're not allowed to hack their brains, if they did, well, China
is probably the best example of that right now.
Right? With esport are much more All or
Nothing. Yeah.
You know, yeah. Which is funny that, you know, I
guess the app that typifies like the most addictive just Your
dopamine, you know, injecting app is also, you know, built in
a country where they've taken the most Hardline approach to
like certain levels of computer addiction with Esports.
Does this all connect though to Kevin ruses piece?
From what was that last week? We're just talking about, like,
the need for Silicon Valley. Founders to try to reinvent
themselves or like focus on only future oriented projects to kind
of like get their groove back. Yeah, we could talk about that.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's, that's the the direct
connection between the two. Right.
It's like we've seen Jack step aside, you know, Mark with the
metaverse. I don't know what would like the
third thing that would make it a trend?
But basic well I think everything to do with crypto
right now, the Google co-founders.
I mean literally Sergei was founding like flying car
companies, you know they've if it doesn't worry about a year
ago I mean they've been away from the day-to-day for a bunch
of years now like you know Jack and well I mean I guess Jack I
don't know that. That's a tough comparison, I
think. But the core idea is that they
just want to seem focused on the future.
Rather than as the stewards of the present, right?
Because the present stocks and the hope is that they Kate does
it. I think this presents good and
we need to stop saying sucks but that's like a very long
argument. Okay?
Steven Pinker. I mean, I think they're point is
that, you know, for them, they are more hated than they've ever
been in their lives, rise Executives.
So from that perspective, their present sucks, but if they can
help craft a future that is, you know, full of the optimism that
we were talking about earlier. I mean, you know, that's just a
purely kind of Cynical aspect of it.
I think they also just believe in it and want to like Focus
their attention and time on it but that was that was like the
core of his argument, right? Is that like Silicon Valley is
looking for things that it can it can rally behind.
It's a kind of re-engage. The positive spirit that like
built the industry and like built their interest in it basic
Facebook's are should just shut down for a week and insist that
they're never going to come back up and just see what all the
like takes would be, then people would still fucking hate well
that Conspiracy theory of like when the right I was down right,
remember that? That shitty documentary that
came out like 10 years ago called the day without Mexicans.
I'm aware. If it was basically like this is
how, you know, our economy, our labor depend.
Yeah, like our country and all its ways would cease to exist
because, you know, we all the Mexicans literally.
It's very yeah. I don't know how well it would
do if it came out now, but like, I guess the version of that
would be like a day without Facebook, right.
I mean like, what, what do you people do?
Do you don't even realize like how which would that benefit
them that much? I mean that was a not well, the
people fundamentally want it more than they don't.
And it would at least reframe sort of what this to be really
is. Yeah, I mean, that's it does
sort of feel like there's a sort of shut it all down, you're
playing well a Sprite and you're playing with fire with that.
If you're the company because at the same time, I mean this was a
number of takes that came out after the Facebook outage was
that like they're actually way too powerful think about how
things cease to function and people couldn't Communicate with
their families and ND on WhatsApp because it wasn't
working. Well, it would, I mean, this
goes back to sort of the thing we open this conversation with
which is just if it's the case that we're like like the
Technologies are inevitable, if they work, right?
That sort of idea was what we sort of opened up talking about.
And the question is is it because they hack our brains or
because they're better in a, genuine way and we prefer to use
them and it's sort of a hard debate to have Have when we have
access to the thing that could be hacking, our brain, right?
So if Facebook goes away, we spend a month living without it.
We do Bunch this studies and people are like, actually we're
happier or we're not, you know, I mean it is sort of like I'd
like to run the I mean I guess we could do it without shutting
down we just but I'm sure there's this research now.
I'm just sort of a junior level psych researcher.
Now realizing this is very testable but but it does feel
like Yeah, I do. We do, we prefer.
Are we happier with them? Or, I don't know this becomes.
What do you do? I would say, why do scientific
research and we can just have anecdotal, first-person columns
from reporters talking about, like I spent a month without any
Facebook. Here's how I felt which, I feel
like, inevitably those articles always end up saying, I was the
same person or I didn't really feel any different.
I remember wired. I think it was wired a couple
years ago, did one, where some person tried to live without
email for a year? He was the full on fucking
internet. I'll look it up, but either way
I do remember the conclusion was like I ended up being the same
person. I always was and I mean, part of
the problem and I think this is why you would want to see an
experiment with it. All shut down is just given that
we live in a world where everybody else uses it, giving
it up, as much more difficult, because we're social animals and
people shame you for not being easily accessible.
But if the technology is just gone, Then everyone has to
adjust and maybe that adjust radius is half, right?
Because you're in with, you're just living on the outside of a
party if it's just, you would have to be Universal, right?
IE10 to think they're happier with it, but I do think
Tick-Tock is very addictive and I would like to spend less time
on it, but you would be amazed mean if you take it off your
phone, how little you use of it? I mean it you know because
there's an example of like you know living on the backbone of
another platform like I only consume Tick-Tock through
Twitter, you know, when people post a video of it all like I
like you deleted it or you never had.
I had it for like a month. I was it was it was killing me.
Like I was just spending, I should delete it.
Your yeah, I would just wake up like at 6:30 and just sit in bed
until like eight. Just going through videos not
entirely on Tick-Tock but yeah, no, I mean it's the promise.
I'm not a happy, I do something fucking guy, enjoy some of them.
I do get a little sense of the culture, I like it.
But it is not deep meaning you know, they I there I guess there
is some part of me that's like oh there's value in Tick-Tock
but I guess never never more on a permanent basis than just like
reading a book. Would have you want to talk
about BuzzFeed? Sorry.
I kind of cut off the tick tock tock but I mean, you're the one
who needs to have takes, I'm sure of takes, but what's the
central observation on BuzzFeed? Well, so BuzzFeed for our
listeners had its first day of trading on the NASDAQ Actually,
so it's tech company and it didn't go very well in its I saw
somebody was holding a sign on the listing.
Thank God, we didn't get acquired by waste our.
Do you see that they had like behind Jonah Peretti look, some
BuzzFeed. Exactly.
Just sort of a joke. I assume he asked the company or
the company told him to do and it was meant to make them seem
like quirky. So on Friday, in which they had
the man I'm going to fuck this up it on Friday.
There was like a process in which they basically figured
Whether or not the investors who had put money into the spec
vehicle, we're going to leave their money in there in advance
of its first day of trading and basically a shitload of
investors pulled their money out, meaning that the initial
200 plus million dollars that were sitting in.
You know, the shell company ended up being around like 15
million dollars. So like the cash that
theoretically what did they want?
Well they wanted 200 plus million.
I mean you know that was the cash that was sitting.
Inside this, you know, shell company that yeah.
It's terrible, right? So yes they did not get we
obviously it's part of a general Trend.
That's pipes have been right where oh pipes have been
difficult. So getting the and they didn't
have a big pipe, right? That's part of the issue.
These pipes have been bad and then redemptions have been
banned, right? So then you get public with very
little cash from there for the transaction.
Which I mean they did Issue a convertible note so, you know,
there's obviously a lot more strings attached to it than just
like the cash that comes from a merger.
But you know, they do have I think like 150 or something
million from that note. But no like this was not a huge
financing event that you would typically see with an IPO so far
as that goes like big fucking with.
But now you know it had its first day of trading it closed
down so that's not great and it's not a great market right
now. So I don't think it's going to
get better anytime soon, it's going to be pretty rough for
them would be my like, short-term Outlook.
And I have no idea who would like a Fire them.
Well, I think the point is that they're going to be acquiring.
Other companies like, like, Jonah's going around doing
interviews with Peter Kafka and, you know, the New York Times and
a bunch of other places, not us. Who were they acquire?
I mean, clearly, like people talked about a Vox BuzzFeed
merger you up on succession. By the way, I watched it.
I watch like it. Ever merger of equals, right?
Exactly. Who is he supposed to be Mojo?
The CEO of the I assume he's supposed to be an Elan type, but
running a very different Okay, but I think it's like Elon, plus
Daniel Eck. It was my take.
I mean the the company I think is supposed to be like it's a
video streaming service but also has like sports rights and
bedding. So it's like a mixture of like
Spotify and like does own and maybe a little bit like Draft
Kings or Barstool. I don't know.
I don't know how, right? It seems like clearly Eli's that
I mean you know as not exactly what him like tweeting stuff out
that would have liked material effect on the stock price and
doing drugs and sort of being like A great honor manure,
right? Right, we should anyway.
Yeah we can have a when the succession finale of succession
episode would be fun. Oh yeah, after the finale, we
can do on. Did you read the New Yorker
article? Yeah, I read it right before
this, it was pretty crazy. Yeah, well, oh my God.
Spoilers spoilers okay, spoilers, but do you think
Kendall don't know? I don't, I just think that would
be bad story writing and they're pretty good about that on the
show. So, I mean, I think he's like
clearly hit some sort of rock bottom, but like to have one of
your Central character dies. Go to Sarah Jo actually.
Sorry. That's my girlfriend was
analyzing. I actually sort of think the
opposite that would be bad storytelling not to kill him
because it would just be like what he's going to be waking up
in the water just like a total. Fake out is lame for show in a
network. Certainly that's supposed to be
sort of cool and legit. I don't know, I guess I think
they've teased it. Like, I mean obviously teasing
is almost too weak of a word. I mean he's flirting with
suicide clearly throughout the show.
And then symbolically, there's been a lot of suicide stuff.
But who would BuzzFeed acquire? I mean, the list is increasingly
small. There are companies that they
were supposed to be merging with in the past, like, group 9.
That's the one with the layer, right?
Right. They own the Dota or yeah, I'm
sorry. It's the dodo, it's thrillist.
It's now this news or what. Now this.
Yeah, it's a collection of sites like a holding company this icy
way less about them. Yeah.
Because only the election was, yeah, I mean, they hate it.
They were like a big deal the time because they didn't have a
home page, you know, they existed only as like a media
company that on other platforms. So I'm Tom is the expert in
digital media used to cover a lot.
What happened to Mike by the way?
Well they went under I mean they got acquired by bustle.
We can talk about that with Brian.
The mic story is actually kind of a Ryan Goldberg.
I'm sorry come on sorry we want him on.
We run them right? That's not a promise.
He's coming. Yeah it seemed like him.
Come on, Mike basically ran out of cash after they lost a
Facebook video deal and sold desperately and very meekly to
Mike for like, under 10 million dollars when they were like,
capitalized, a friend who work there.
They seem like the worse. Now, comic is used to talk to
those guys a lot, but they flamed out, I mean, it was just
a bad business. Ultimately, and they, you know,
their last, they basically were in the way that like, you know,
Madmen like the firm was entirely reliant on.
Lucky Strike cigarettes. Hmm.
They were hugely reliant on this deal with Facebook for a video
show when Facebook watch was like, throwing out money left
and right, and Facebook, cancel their show, and that was it.
And so, they sold to bustle for, not a lot of money.
I think they are still a website, like they do publish
things but they're like a shell of themselves.
But yeah, it's another one of those Brian Goldberg buys a
company, like, basically off the trash eat situation so that,
that was them. So, you're smart.
You're not buying that smart if there's any value to them.
I mean, he did this. With Gawker, I think TBD on
whether there's value there but I feel like they haven't really
been cutting through. Well The Gawker thing is funny
to me because I read their articles.
Like I think they're good and smart but it's like you know
they also bought this company. The outline, remember them that
was Josh to post these site. We also sold for like Pennies on
the dollar like he works now for Brian but the outline is dead as
a site but basically they relaunch Gawker and like
stylistically. It's The same exact thing as the
alpha life. So basically like he bought the
outline. Shut it down bought Gawker, try
to relaunch it and just made it the outline which was already a
failed business, so I don't. But I mean obviously the content
matters way more than the design.
It's more. The content is more like, well,
I thought the content on the outline was good but The Gawker,
but they're very different style.
Not really, I mean, I sort of really you think it's like the
LIC, the new Gawker is like, very reminiscent of the.
I mean, the Allen had reporting. There were reporters that I
worked with. Keep that came from there.
So, there's maybe that elements of it but like the kind of hip
and smart takes on. Any number of things going on in
the world, I just think the truly like fiery, like
dangerous. This is going to really takes
these days would flirt with like fighting with woke people and I
don't think Gawker wants to do that, right?
Well that I'm not fighting with woke people right there on their
team. Whoa, yeah more than which like
is so so like that's what the President's party is you're just
like very much like on the side of like the dominant culture
like what's sort of like cutting about that.
That's where the New York Times. I don't know.
I've read a bunch of articles on Gawker, that I think are great.
Like I thought there were really well.
Written pieces. Probably burned by Freelancers.
I like the piece about Brian Goldberg, like the whole like,
there was a good day one that right at a strong day one, I
read them. I just don't see the reason to
exist. I don't you know, the number of
sites that BuzzFeed would want to buy is Small and none of them
are actively trying to sell themselves to BuzzFeed.
So there's Vice, there's Vox. And then there's group 9, the
group, 9 deal has been tried multiple times, and it keeps
getting abandoned. I think it would be like a
complete mess cap, table wise. And then there's Vox which has
no interest in selling, they think they're a much better
business. The BuzzFeed.
They probably want to go public through like I don't know.
This is like a year out of date information, but there was talk
about them. Just pursuing a traditional IPO
a year ago. Go and then Vice how well can
Vox be doing? Like I just I think they're just
a better run business, just Jim bankoff.
The CEO is like a more responsible spender of money
than Jonah was is what people tell me.
So I yeah, I that's the argument that people close to the company
made at the time but you know, like you gotta like, eventually
you have to show your numbers back to Jonah, BuzzFeed like he
is wanted to go public A long time.
Like I remember back when I was at the information 2017 or
something, he did a panel interview with Jessica and me
and he was talking about like the value in going public is not
just to, like, prove to yourself that you're a publicly traded
company but like, you know, the virtues of being public or good
for any business, which is like showing profit forecasting
numbers. It's so embarrassing.
How long the these companies can promise that they're going to go
public? Because every outlet that gets,
it gets another Other headline, buzzfeed's thinking about Ryan
talk like anchors and right. And then it's just like, it
never happens there. No consequences.
It's just like, yeah. If I ever start a business, I'm
just going to tell people, I'm going to go public and two
years. Well, it's the true at the time,
you know, get-out-of-jail-free card that every journalist use
it though was in his heart of hearts, you know, true that he
said it at the time, but like I think they really, really, I
think they were, I mean, I don't know.
I never broke any stories about it, so I didn't have good
reading on it. And there was lots of
disagreement because NBC is their Shareholder and there was
huge. Disagreement, NBC about what the
actual value of BuzzFeed was. I mean there were people I
talked to the thought it was worth like at a time that you
know, NBC valued at it like 1.7 million post-money.
There are people inside and BC the thought was worth like 600
million or something. So that whole investment is
fascinating story, that no one's really written.
Would you would you think about, by the way, the BuzzFeed Union
action as BuzzFeed, was dese packing.
I mean, I got it's a little touchy talking.
Out Union stuff. I'm in the midst.
I know that's why I brought it up.
That's what's good content? I mean, I would say the fact
that they haven't gotten their contract ratified yet is
probably incredibly frustrating to the union, like they voted a
year and a half ago, you know, to form a union like the the
staffers voted for it. So like there's a incredible
internal push. The fact they haven't reached
and go like we're in negotiations.
Now, I can say that with our owner to figure out a contract.
I think it was like, Opportunity for them to publicize the fact
that they haven't gotten a contract ratified, but also I
think it kind of maybe overrated, like I think they
were trying to make some like public demonstration that like
look this company's doing so well.
They're about to go public and yet they're unwilling to strike
a deal with it, so yeah, exactly, that's insane.
I was like, no, your come, you need to help your company do
well soon, get anything like, so they can do to example, take the
Union exist in, you know, competition with the success of
BuzzFeed as a company, but I do think Think if they were trying
to sell a message that like look at these fucking fat cats that
are going public now. And yet they're unwilling to
meet our meager demands as a union is like yeah it's not that
kind of an IPO guys, right? Yes, I couldn't agree with you
more that. Yeah, that's exactly.
That's what I want you to say. Yeah, it sort of makes sense
when they look when BuzzFeed looks wealthy.
But when they look beleaguered then it's sort of like oh man
and their employees. Give them a hard time.
Like what's this company? Even work.
I think that's the Other problems right now.
I think they can deal with that. They clearly managed to get by
even with employees. You know.
Not having a contract for it's like over a year that they
agreed to that, they voted to unionize but like, I don't know
to me like, BuzzFeed going public, I use this analogy a
lot, but I think it's follow me with this until this makes
sense, but to me, BuzzFeed going public is kind of like when
Conan O'Brien host of The Tonight Show which is like it
was something that he'd wanted to do for his entire career like
since he was a kid but like watching Johnny And he's like, I
really want to host it tonight show and like through an
unbelievable collection of events in his life.
He actually did, you know, host a late night show that came on
after The Tonight Show and then the host of that show left and
like, holy shit, they made him the host of The Tonight Show,
and then he got there and he was a fucking nightmare, you know,
right. It's like the ratings were
plummeting, like he was the last person that like The Tonight
Show as a concept has like crumbled.
It's no longer this like monolithic cultural institution.
It's just like one of many things that now basically exists
as like YouTube, Yes, that's a couple years down the line but
like so Conan gets there and it's like he probably cared more
about it than anyone else did. And it's useless now and I kind
of feel it's the same thing with BuzzFeed.
It's like Jonas wanted to go public for so long.
He thinks it's like a great you know and to a degree it is like
it's a great accomplishment for a company to be you know traded
in that way. And yet like now what do you do?
Like you're here and you're now you know stuck to the whims of
investors and you know reporting quarterly and you you are having
to be compared to much more profitable companies like the
New York Times and people figure out your multiple.
You can't wave, you know like Tech.
You know, magic dust around your company's mission statement and
claim that you should be valued at a higher multiple.
There's no media companies that have gone public in the last.
I can't even think of the last Media company that went public.
Like, what do you do now? Jonah, I don't know.
It's it's not, there's no easy answer to it.
My my concluding thought on this is that hopefully soon, we In
put to rest, my least. Favorite genre of story which is
when will bend Smith divest his BuzzFeed shares.
So that his New York Times column is ethically sound and
more than Town people written that.
I'm like well I care too many. It was late.
Then why I didn't advise her Gawker didn't think someone or
something. Yeah, is oriented.
So they just they just drive me insane.
It's like yeah. It's also just I mean Yeah the
media ethics purity of it are just like there's so many, I
don't know. That's a whole can of worms.
Yeah well I hold no shares a newcomer LLC so I can speak
freely about the value of that company.
The you're probably have like I mean this is exactly the point.
You probably have clearly it's in your interest in newcomer
does well. Like, even if you don't own
shares, I mean, they're all sorts of biases that people have
outside of exact shares and like, is he really not going to
want BuzzFeed? To do.
Well, if he doesn't own shares anymore, like, I don't know.
But isn't it? Don't you love the point where
you're talking to an ex-employee, at a company on
background and their shit, talking it and then they're just
like, look, I'm a shareholder still.
So I would like nothing more than to see this company do well
but it like it hurts me to see what's going on there right now.
It's like yeah, I'm sure it really hurts.
You you're talking this much? Should they think that by
talking shit about it? They're going to get the change
they want which will make I want every Source.
I think that By the way, I think that's the most pure form of
source. And I never wanted this to be
for serious, serious accusations of wrongdoing and things like
that. I do believe that's the case,
right? A certain number of people, just
aggrieved. Why I feel like we covered a lot
of ground in this conversation. So we'll see.
We'll see what makes it all out in the end, but good.
Good catching up after a long. Sorry, about the long Hiatus
listeners being off for a week and a half, but we're going to
go back to our A regularly scheduled weekly Cadence.
We're now trying to publish on Tuesdays.
We're not swearing up and down yet.
We get about this will be good, we'll try, we're
professionalizing, you know, right?
Right and Katie will be back soon to.
So anyway, thanks for listening and we'll see you guys all back
here next episode. So if I'm Valerie, So work on
Sally, goodbye. Goodbye.
Goodbye goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.