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Welcome. 
Hey, it's Eric here with Tom. 

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Welcome to dead cat. 
I just got back from Miami a 

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couple days ago. 
I was there for some of the Art 

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Basel stuff. 
I interviewed key through boy at

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a The pre-money conference that 
was hosted by 500 Global wheat, 

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500, Global, by the way, like 
the renaming of 500 startups. 

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What is? 
Yeah, they rebranded like, I 

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feel like everybody missed it. 
Sort of weird because I feel 

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like 500 startups was so known 
but I think clear, I knew 

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exactly what that meant. 
Yeah, I think they're trying to 

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do more growth. 
I do think his strength of 

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theirs is sort of that. 
They invest all over the world. 

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So there's how much I have to do
how much of this had to do with 

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the mmm. 
Erosion of Dave McClure and 

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their need to, like, separate 
themselves from what he had 

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built. 
Yeah. 

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You really get right to it. 
I mean, he was definitely sort 

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of. 
I ask somebody, you know, like, 

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did he come up at their LP 
meeting because NLP meeting 

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before? 
And it didn't seem like he was 

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coming up explicitly. 
I mean, my sense is Dave has 

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been buying out steaks in a 
bunch of 500 companies. 

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So even though he's he wasn't 
there and his, you know, kept 

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sort of at Bay. 
He's very much like in the 

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ecosystem, still. 
I think we're in this 

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interesting point. 
I mean Katie wrote the stories, 

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right? 
Yeah, it's a shame. 

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She's not on today. 
By the way, we should tell our 

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listeners Katie at the last 
minute, had to bow out because 

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breaking news in the doj front 
around gerrymandering. 

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So that's why it's just your 
regular host. 

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Not an excuse, not not special 
guest. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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I mean Dave, I don't know, I 
can't make the Declaration, but 

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I do feel like some of the 
lightly can't Salled people in 

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Silicon Valley, you know, I'm 
not going to be the one to beat 

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the drum that they shouldn't be 
able to. 

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That's a whole different topic. 
I was just wondering if the 

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renaming of the company had to 
do from them saying like, well, 

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look, that was his project. 
Yeah, clearly under flamed out 

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in a way, that doesn't reflect 
well on the brand anyway, but 

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Miami Miami. 
It was fun. 

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I mean, there was so much 
traffic, I tweeted about it at 

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afterwards, you know, that it 
was just like, Eating ubirr all 

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day. 
Like everybody sort of saying 

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Silicon Valley should relocate 
to Silicon Valley, you know, one

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of the founders fund guys 
tweeted that in the you know, 

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Miami mayor retweeted it like, 
I'm here to help. 

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And then all these Miami people 
were arguing in my mentions 

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about whether Miami really does 
have the infrastructure or not. 

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I think many people don't think 
so, but beside besides the 

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traffic. 
I mean, it was just, it does 

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feel like, You know, feels like 
the pandemics barely there. 

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I mean that's true in a lot of 
these sort of, you know, it like

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resurfaces, every I know I'm not
nobody care for roshi way. 

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You know, you me was every we're
just over a year now from the 

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initial mayor of Miami tweet, 
how can I help that quote, 

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unquote, kicked it off, right? 
And that, at least technically 

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got these people out of their 
shells to start talking only 

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about tech in Miami. 
But the sense that I got talking

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to people in December of twenty 
twenty, Bout. 

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It was like yeah I think they 
really liked it because of no 

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taxes and they don't really care
about the pandemic as well. 

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I interviewed Keith, I mean and 
I prodded him a little bit on 

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this point. 
I mean, he basically says that 

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he and his Husband set like a 
threshold Point, unreasonable 

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taxes, you know. 
So they wouldn't move to 

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Virginia, but they were willing 
to move to places, you know, 

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they had more attacks, may be 
that in Florida and then they 

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sort of decided among that and I
find that believable. 

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But yeah, certainly Only taxes 
are a big. 

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I mean, dude, add tons of exits.
I mean, doordash went public a 

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firm, went public. 
I mean, he just, he has a lot of

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money coming in. 
So, taxes, are top of mind, 

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right? 
That's the reason to choose 

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Florida over Virginia, but the 
the from a pandemic standpoint, 

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everything's open. 
Everyone's just chilling, right?

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I mean the hotel. 
Lobbies is so funny girl hotel 

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and like, you know, New York or 
something like that. 

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Where you're wearing the mask? 
And then Miami were there. 

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No mass in a hotel lobby. 
Bobby's. 

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I mean Keith was saying, you 
know, like he had to wear a 

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mask, you know, because like the
500 conference I'm sure they had

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like some organizer. 
That's like parent, you know, he

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had to wear masks briefly there 
and he was like, you know, I've 

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only had to wear a mask like, 
you know, in doctors offices or 

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something, you know, he's it 
goes against his message, a 

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little bit that nobody's making 
you wear a mask in Miami because

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he had to wear it leading up to 
the speaking at the conference. 

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What would you say is the 
overlay between? 

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You know, the web three or To 
aficionados and the people who 

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are of no interest in like 
Health Department regulations 

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and suggestions on mask-wearing,
I don't know that there's a 

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perfume. 
Okay, I mean, it's an 

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interesting question. 
I mean there was, it was web 3. 

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I mean crypto was just 
ubiquitous and it was super 

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interesting after the panel, you
know. 

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Some, some guy comes up to me 
and is I mean Super Earnest and 

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I, you know, I I think it's an 
interesting project and you 

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really do get get the sense that
there's real, like brain power 

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behind some of these crypto 
projects in a way that's, you 

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know, reminiscent of, you know, 
social media, many many, many 

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years ago. 
No, or write or sort of the 

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on-demand economy economy more 
recently, so it gives me, I feel

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like that alone gives me the 
most optimism about, the Crypt 

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smart people are working on it. 
But did you, I feel like it's 

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the responsibility of 
journalists going to these 

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conferences now to come back, 
From it with a changed world 

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view and perspective on the 
entire movement. 

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Like, you have to have some sub 
Natori article, which is there. 

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Like after four days here in 
which I talk to a dozen people 

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in a Lobby. 
I get it or I think this is the 

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greatest Folly. 
Like you can't come back from it

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being like, well, some good, 
some bad. 

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Like it reminds me of, I mean, 
you wrote a thing about it so 

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I'm sure you'll say it now but 
it reminds me of a couple of 

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years ago when you know what 
VidCon is. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah yeah influencers. 

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Right. 
Yeah yeah. 

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I mean the Creator Hammer went 
sir. 

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Yeah. 
I mean YouTubers started off as 

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mostly in Anaheim and there 
would be like a yearly column 

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coming out from reporters being 
like oh I get it. 

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My mind has been warped. 
I didn't understand how big it 

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was like, how important YouTube 
was there, right? 

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That's true. 
Yeah, to a degree. 

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I mean we can we can talk about 
a different time round button 

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but either way, the point was 
that, like journalist had to be 

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like, you know, red pilled After
they came back from these 

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things. 
And so is that is that you? 

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I mean, because you came in 
necessarily skeptical. 

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So yeah, I'm not as I'm pretty 
bullet. 

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Would you have gone if you 
weren't asked to interview 

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Keith, how about that? 
No, no. 

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And I mean, they paid for my 
flight and I mean, it was good 

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to go. 
I mean, what your I was help 

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you. 
Thank you for the disclosure. 

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It's fine. 
I know, I mean, but I'm glad I 

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went, I mean, they set up the 
conference during sort of Art 

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Basel. 
Honestly, I don't even know what

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like people were in town for our
bezel. 

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So I could see a bunch of people
but it's not like, you know, I 

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saw public. 
But I wasn't really proactively 

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like going to galleries or 
whatever. 

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So it's funny for me to claim I 
was at Art Basel and really I 

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was at this sub conference. 
Anyway totally beside the point 

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but the other tangent I wanted 
to go on was just the point that

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I feel like there's this 
interesting thing where writers 

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are getting pushed back for 
being open to crypto at all, you

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know what I mean? 
Push back from who though, I can

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never tell. 
It's just like they tweeted out 

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something. 
Vaguely positive about the 

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movement will like a see a 
platformer. 

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It seemed like Like, you know, 
he rationalized in people sort 

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of got angry with him and the 
Kevin ruse piece in the New York

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Times where he sort of gave a 
very descriptive descriptive 

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coverage of an FDNY. 
See it felt like he got pushed 

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back for that. 
And Ryan Broderick has been 

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writing about this. 
I mean, it just feels like 

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people are very, you know, a 
certain set of like leftist 

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types online or just like trying
to combat sort of media Euphoria

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about a And but it just like 
it's fun. 

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I mean, I think it's smart to 
like sort of tease out sort of 

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the promise, you know, without 
promising that something's going

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to happen. 
The leftist part of it is kind 

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of strange to me because, you 
know, most of the people that I 

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talked to about it will make 
like a very Collective argument 

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about the value of it, right? 
I mean, decentralization is 

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supposed to push away from 
Monopoly and is supposed to push

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away a concentration of Power by
a few Tech firms. 

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So you can argue whether or not 
that's like to the benefit of A 

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leftist movement and the idea of
like, well, I mean, but crypto 

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is trying to financial eyes. 
Everything, you know, in some 

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ways, the enforcer free and now 
they want everything to have a 

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price. 
But, you know, looking at it 

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from another perspective, people
are producing content for free 

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and not getting paid for it. 
That seems super unfriendly to 

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workers. 
You know, if we found out 

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creative ways that people could 
own the things that they create,

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I don't know. 
That seems fairly Progressive to

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me, it seems like it's a pretty,
it's a pretty Easy Elysian 

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between what crypto and 
decentralization offers and what

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like a leftist worldview would 
agree to. 

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Like it doesn't seem like it has
to be at odds with excited for 

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the fact that there is 
financialization behind it and 

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it does create like a market 
behind everything, right? 

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And a sign of your financial 
value at the core, a lot of the 

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people talking about web 3 and 
crypto are just like, very 

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hopeful that coins that they 
already own or going to go up in

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value, right? 
Actual utility of them is pretty

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secondary and is more of a 
marketing. 

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Marketing channel to inflate the
value of their Holdings than 

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anything else. 
I think that's a true obvious 

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obviously true critique. 
And then lots of people going 

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into starting, companies around 
these coins, or n ftes, or just 

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seeing that you can get the 
money before you do the work, 

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which is, you know, obviously 
just like a huge incentive for 

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fraud and failure. 
So I think that's all true. 

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I just think they'll be 
successes despite that explain 

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to me your your disagreement 
with Max reads. 

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Is because I read it just before
we started recording and his 

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argument is essentially what he 
was just trying to do like an 

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explainer almost of like, here, 
we are trying to create a 

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framework, right? 
Right. 

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And basically, he was saying web
3. 

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You can either say you agree 
that it is a revolutionary new 

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form of what, you know, the 
internet and Community online 

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community can offer, or you can 
say it's just pure hype and it's

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pushed by people like Andreessen
Horowitz and other big money to 

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investors that want to see it 
coming. 

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To action like into reality 
because that as investors would 

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benefit them. 
And then his take was basically 

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like, what if you just don't 
want to have to engage with it 

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at all? 
Essentially, well, I think he 

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was floating the possibility 
that you could be bullish, on 

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web three, not because you 
believe in the technology but 

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because you believe in the power
of Silicon Valley, to make it 

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happen through economic and 
cultural, Troll power and 

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basically was trying to separate
the idea of bullishness 

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bullishness and bearishness from
like, you know, a Raw versus 

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like a skepticism or moral 
approbation about the 

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technology. 
And so he's ruining was that he 

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can hold a position that he 
thinks web 30 is going to 

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matter, not because it's a great
technology but because firms 

225
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,200
like Andreessen, Horowitz can 
make it happen and then he can 

226
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:55,900
say he's skeptical, How about 
the value of web 3 and why we're

227
00:11:55,900 --> 00:12:00,300
sort of being led along the path
to it, right? 

228
00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:02,200
But and your and your 
disagreement with it as that 

229
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,100
Tech fundamentally can't force 
something like they can't make 

230
00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:05,900
fetch happen. 
Yeah. 

231
00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:07,500
They're not. 
Because they're right. 

232
00:12:07,500 --> 00:12:09,600
They're not. 
I mean they're rich but like 

233
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again you know the piece sort of
concludes with the point my 

234
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,600
rebuttal, it concludes with the 
point that, you know, they tried

235
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,800
this with Clubhouse. 
You know they tried to bring all

236
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,700
the power. 
They could all the Cultural 

237
00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:26,200
power money, you know, whatever 
to make it work. 

238
00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,200
And it seems like it's 
struggling as Insider is written

239
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,800
and that really like the power 
of technology and this has been 

240
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,600
my position, you know, for most 
of my time now, covering Silicon

241
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,900
Valley that the power of these 
Tech billionaires is the actual 

242
00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:43,000
platforms. 
They control that the actual 

243
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,200
technology itself is super 
powerful. 

244
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,800
That, you know, people are 
addicted to their phones, that 

245
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,900
can't give it up people 
complained, the very people 

246
00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:54,600
reporters who, Complain about 
technology are extremely 

247
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,600
addicted to it. 
And the only thing that will 

248
00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,300
replace their current addiction 
is a better technology that you 

249
00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:05,100
know, is even more powerfully 
manipulative of our psychology. 

250
00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:09,500
And so whether web three matters
are not is really a function of 

251
00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:12,000
whether it's a better technology
than we have today. 

252
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,600
And whether we're, you know, 
psychologically hooked into it 

253
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,100
more completely than whatever 
we're using today that it 

254
00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:21,400
replaces right, either more 
addictive, or it solves a 

255
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,100
problem. 
That we are trying to solve and 

256
00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:28,400
and the solution is elegant and 
useful useful by the masses. 

257
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,000
But also I think that people 
give too much credit to the 

258
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,900
individuals like a great man of 
History, within an industry, to 

259
00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:41,400
be able to push a specific 
technology or movement sink like

260
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,900
like Facebook was going to 
happen whether or not Mark 

261
00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:48,900
Zuckerberg existed right there 
was you know with the ad you 

262
00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:51,600
know advents of I mean on the 
fucking internet. 

263
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,100
I mean just people. 
We'll be able to wanting to 

264
00:13:53,108 --> 00:13:55,700
connect with each other and then
really what makes it take off in

265
00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:59,200
a hugely valuable way is, you 
know, the shrinking of computers

266
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,800
to handheld devices. 
There was just an obvious Next 

267
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,900
Step that, like, within these 
devices, people are going to 

268
00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:07,600
want to connect with each other,
on the backs of the 

269
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:09,100
infrastructure of the internet 
created. 

270
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,900
I don't think whether or not, 
you know, Excel put money into 

271
00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:15,700
Facebook that many years ago. 
Would have forced this to happen

272
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:17,900
one way or the other when it 
wouldn't have. 

273
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,800
I agree with that. 
The only thing I think you agree

274
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,900
with this is that all Silly 
them. 

275
00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:25,900
Once it happens given the power 
of network effects, Mark 

276
00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:29,800
Zuckerberg personally is 
extremely influential because he

277
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,200
happens to control this 
technology. 

278
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,500
That's hard to replicate a 
billion times over because 

279
00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:39,300
people only want to join so many
Network. 

280
00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:42,700
So while he may have been the 
one to move first, if he hadn't 

281
00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:45,600
somebody else might have done 
it, it's still super. 

282
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,900
He has a lot of control over it.
Now, because of how its 

283
00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:51,900
centralized think about all the 
failed products that Facebook is

284
00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:54,000
put, Doubt that if they've hope 
to redefine the company in the 

285
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,300
past, right, right. 
Like all the different apps that

286
00:14:56,300 --> 00:14:58,200
they build, that they put out, 
that no one even remembers 

287
00:14:58,200 --> 00:14:59,600
anymore. 
I think we agree. 

288
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,700
I'm just saying, if the in apps,
where they succeed to build the 

289
00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:07,800
core features, that make them 
work and become addictive, and 

290
00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:11,900
useful, and all that, there are 
lots of sort of secondary 

291
00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:15,200
decisions that don't sort of 
really change that one way or 

292
00:15:15,208 --> 00:15:17,500
the other that them Mark, 
Zuckerberg has the power to 

293
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:20,400
influence be. 
Here's my question to, which Max

294
00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:23,600
starts to deal with a little bit
He links to a few other articles

295
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,600
that I found interesting like by
Adam Davidson who's like a big 

296
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,300
crypto bowl or web three Bowl 
right now, which is like, what 

297
00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:33,300
is the need to ascribe morality 
to this technology right now? 

298
00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:36,000
Like whether or not it's good or
bad that seems to be like 

299
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,800
underpinning. 
A lot of the arguments is that 

300
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,000
like it's not enough to say. 
I think it's bullshit because I 

301
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,600
am, you know, this is my take or
I'm taking a stance on the 

302
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,700
future but also like and it is a
bad thing. 

303
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:49,700
What if you like people hate the
the tech fatalism which is sort 

304
00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:52,900
of what I'm talking about, which
I used to Scoff at, when I came 

305
00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:56,600
it's into Silicon Valley, which 
is just sort of, if the 

306
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,600
technology is good, people are 
going to adopt it. 

307
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,200
There's really nothing you can 
do. 

308
00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:03,000
I mean, that that's a morally 
neutral thing. 

309
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,900
I think is understandably 
disturbing to some people, but I

310
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:10,700
just think having giving it a 
moral layer and saying it's 

311
00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:12,600
terrible. 
You're just not going to be able

312
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,300
to scold enough people away from
working on a technology that 

313
00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:22,000
people then can't resist right 
back to the Miami Conference. 

314
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:24,600
How did you kind of gauge the 
optimism there? 

315
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,200
Because because that to me has 
been like the most compelling 

316
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,000
aspect of web, three Beyond. 
Like just you know, the 

317
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,200
complications of its intrinsic 
value is like as the people that

318
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,600
are working on, it really think 
it's going to be a great thing. 

319
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,000
And I feel like all the optimism
and Silicon Valley that had 

320
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:42,400
once, been funneled toward, you 
know, whatever social media or 

321
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,700
self-driving, cars or name, the 
next advancement seems to have 

322
00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:51,300
coalesce uniquely within within 
web 3 or crypto whatever you 

323
00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:53,800
want to call it. 
And I mean, you can be cynical 

324
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,300
to that and say like, you know, 
these, you know, fucking blue 

325
00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:57,700
skies, don't know what they're 
talking about. 

326
00:16:57,700 --> 00:17:00,400
And, you know, they've just 
found a new thing to be wrong 

327
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,300
about or naive about. 
I find it kind of interesting. 

328
00:17:04,300 --> 00:17:08,400
It's like, well you know, we can
we can embrace them element of 

329
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,900
the optimism and it did it seem 
like, a, particularly optimistic

330
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:13,300
crew out there? 
Yeah, it's definitely more 

331
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:15,200
optimistic. 
I mean, you'll hear the fucking 

332
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,500
good morning thing, right? 
Like it's baked into the 

333
00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:21,900
ideology and I do think, you 
know, people would say short of 

334
00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:24,500
shutting. 
Running the progressivism allows

335
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:26,900
them to be less you know 
self-flagellating more 

336
00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:31,200
optimistic and that's certainly 
with the sort of Keith strain 

337
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,000
would say about Miami. 
I mean, II I thought there was 

338
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,300
an interest in, I talked about 
this in the newsletter just sort

339
00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:44,600
of Two parallel panel universes,
you know, on the one hand, 

340
00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:49,400
Balaji srinivasan spoke. 
He was, you know, I guess you 

341
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,600
would put him in the optimistic.
He spoke by video conference. 

342
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,400
Not only by videoconference, you
made it sound very 

343
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,200
cloak-and-dagger. 
He was in an undisclosed 

344
00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:02,000
location. 
You know, it was just sort of 

345
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,300
like, you know, I don't know, 
there was nothing. 

346
00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:07,100
It was just funny because he's 
yellow, where is a docks 

347
00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:09,200
obsessed with. 
Yeah, exactly. 

348
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:10,500
Privacy. 
And All that. 

349
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:14,300
So yeah it fit in sort of his 
message but you know, even 

350
00:18:14,300 --> 00:18:17,200
though he sort of represents the
camp that wants to be more 

351
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,700
optimistic, you know, he's 
obsessed with whoa culture. 

352
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:24,200
You know, it's very I mean, he 
has a fascinating framework 

353
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:29,300
which she calls. 
BTC nyt and CCP, you know, 

354
00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:33,000
Bitcoin New York Times Chinese 
Communist party, which to him 

355
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,600
represent, you know, sort of 
different extremes on the 

356
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,900
political map and he doesn't, it
might sound like, He's in BTC, 

357
00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:45,200
but he professes to want to be 
in some, some midpoint between 

358
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,000
those. 
But but anyway, my point is, you

359
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,100
have sort of Balaji talking 
about wokes, you have keys or 

360
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:54,000
boy talking about like 
pattern-matching, you know, and 

361
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,800
and clearly from his Twitter, 
you know, and he's he's donating

362
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,900
to Republicans, you know, he's 
just he's very much not with 

363
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:03,500
sort of the leftist political 
movement and then you have these

364
00:19:03,508 --> 00:19:07,400
other panels where it's like you
know you have diverse VCS and 

365
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,700
you haven't sort of the Miami 
locals who are all talking 

366
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:12,200
about? 
About including Miami residents 

367
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,700
and all that and sort of much 
more Progressive politics, and 

368
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:20,200
it did feel like they existed in
sort of toe to Total different 

369
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,200
universes. 
Which were not really required 

370
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,400
to reconcile or fight with each 
other. 

371
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,900
But we explain to me more about 
ballot is this bulge, he's still

372
00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:33,900
talking about his issue with the
New York Times as, you know, a 

373
00:19:33,908 --> 00:19:36,400
misleading organization that is 
anti-tech. 

374
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,500
And yeah, it's not okay. 
Right. 

375
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:42,000
I mean, it still seems like a 
ranking. 

376
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,800
There's like at the top BTC like
that is like a lawful good and 

377
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,000
New York Times the chaotic easy.
CP is about control, you know, 

378
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,600
it's sort of the fascist and 
then in terms of democracy, you 

379
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,900
know, see he actually explains a
well. 

380
00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:02,500
I mean, the thing is, the guy is
smart, like I'm not discounting 

381
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:05,400
him at all like and I actually, 
you know, I think he's more 

382
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,600
interesting than most people he 
blocks me. 

383
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:09,900
So now I have to go to 
incognito. 

384
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,300
Um, to find the Tweet because he
blocked had it wired. 

385
00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:16,700
He blocked me because I reached 
out to a friend of his for an 

386
00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:19,800
interview request with him and 
that be members of the media. 

387
00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:21,800
You're right. 
He faced he has to go direct, 

388
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,100
but there is a, you know, 
hypocrisy that it's like, oh, 

389
00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:27,100
you have to go direct except to 
the people that he would, 

390
00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:29,000
theoretically, it could reach 
directly. 

391
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:32,200
Yeah. 
Directed to get to Jim. 

392
00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:35,500
Just just the idea that people 
think that you can profess to be

393
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:39,000
a freethinker while blocking 
people because they just asked 

394
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:40,700
interview. 
It's not like I Bullying him to 

395
00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:44,600
enter you know, anyway, 
communist Capital CCP, you must 

396
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,800
submit. 
Whoa, capital N YT. 

397
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,500
You must sympathize crypto 
capital B. 

398
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:53,500
TC, you must be Sovereign. 
And so, he thinks they're all 

399
00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:57,900
different forms of ice control. 
I will read that, I don't know 

400
00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:00,800
why, but I just got interested 
by his explanation. 

401
00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:04,300
I love open, invitation apology 
to come on the show, be well, 

402
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:06,500
now he's going to block me. 
Yeah, I don't think he had, you 

403
00:21:06,508 --> 00:21:09,400
have it, you have a desire to 
engage with his views, right? 

404
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,300
Like, Actually I just I just 
feel like these people don't 

405
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:16,000
want to be in a situation where 
they really have to not even 

406
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,600
from like a debate me sort of 
like Ben Shapiro versus, you 

407
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,700
know, but just like somebody who
isn't already on your team who 

408
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:27,500
genuinely wants to sort of dig 
apart. 

409
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:29,700
Like, what, what do you mean by 
this assertion? 

410
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:32,000
Like what are the limits? 
Well, it's funny that he blocked

411
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,900
to, I don't want to spend too 
much time on this because I 

412
00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:36,800
think too much power, but like 
it's funny that he blocked 24. 

413
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,600
It wasn't that you tweeted at 
him, right? 

414
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,600
You reached out through like an 
Flying connection. 

415
00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:43,700
And that was enough for him to 
be like a fucking gun. 

416
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:45,400
And now, we almost proximate 
thing. 

417
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,700
You know, I'm sure I mentioned, 
but it's sweet. 

418
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,900
It's other piece with these 
people in general, which is that

419
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:53,900
they want to carry out their 
grievances entirely through 

420
00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:56,300
Twitter, right? 
That's what I mean about the 

421
00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:59,600
parallel panels right there in 
great conflict on the internet. 

422
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,900
But then in real in the real 
world, you know, it's like these

423
00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:06,200
very nice sort of that was the 
funniest thing about, you know, 

424
00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:09,300
Flash from the past the 
clubhouse. 

425
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,300
Where they got chaise a boot in 
the San Francisco FDA on there. 

426
00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:16,600
And you know, complete softball 
interview where he just walked 

427
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,200
all over 90. 
Giving a point of view, one of 

428
00:22:19,208 --> 00:22:23,200
your better posts, thank you. 
And then supposedly near the 

429
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,000
end, you know, David Sachs was 
going to come in there and 

430
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,600
really you know, fuck shit up by
posing some hard questions to 

431
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,500
him but it never happened. 
It was real like, you know, hold

432
00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:33,500
me back bro. 
Like NBA violating David Sachs 

433
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:34,600
could have done? 
Well. 

434
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,900
Yeah, I'm sure these guys could 
like I think they know those 

435
00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:41,300
guys were not ready but David. 
Well, is good, we'll never know.

436
00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:44,300
Now until like, you know, 
trailer puts it up. 

437
00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:48,100
If he likes to monologue, I feel
like in the all in how you 

438
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:51,200
listen to all and I not lately 
but really I want to be on 

439
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,100
record saying, I think it's not 
a terrible show. 

440
00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:54,700
We're very envious, they're 
climbing. 

441
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,800
I mean, they're like Jason 
tweeted to detail our test for 

442
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,400
your points of view or another 
subject but like to save tons of

443
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:01,200
production. 
Yeah. 

444
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:02,600
You know, strictly? 
Yeah. 

445
00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:06,000
Another time. 
But every time they every time 

446
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,200
they actually are confronted 
with the object of their 

447
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,800
derision and Yeah, I'm sure the 
panels were are very friendly, 

448
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:15,100
and even that all in podcasts, 
they obviously Clash a lot. 

449
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:17,900
But, you know, it's like for 
rich guys. 

450
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,400
Nobody is really the left wing 
of the democratic party. 

451
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,700
I start, I'm still impressed 
that he blocked, you just for 

452
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:25,700
reaching out to to, to want, to 
talk to. 

453
00:23:25,708 --> 00:23:29,300
It's going to be like oh you 
shit on him and I but that was 

454
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:32,600
how I, you know, I can't ask 
him, you know. 

455
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:33,800
Like I always think it's a 
reporter. 

456
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,900
Like what's the worst that can 
happen if I just reach out to 

457
00:23:35,908 --> 00:23:38,400
the guy and like to be honest 
that is a fairly low end of the 

458
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,200
spectrum. 
The other end of it is Like, oh,

459
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,600
they're going to like publish 
the emails that I sent try to 

460
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,300
talk to them which does happen 
not infrequently. 

461
00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:50,700
From kind of unhinged people 
that you're trying to talk to 

462
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,600
they push away. 
Push all G is interviewed, as 

463
00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:57,700
has Paul Graham has blocked me 
since I interviewed him at the 

464
00:23:57,700 --> 00:23:59,700
information. 
So 2014, when you wrote that 

465
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:03,200
story, that would put the 
information on the map, we can 

466
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:04,800
link to it in the show 
description. 

467
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,600
So really stick the knife in, as
your commitment to that piece, 

468
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,500
he is not blocked to me, but I 
unfollowed him because I I've 

469
00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:12,800
done like a Twitter cleanse, 
I've decided I should only use 

470
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,000
the app to further my stories 
and journalistic. 

471
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,500
Career, did you want to talk 
about Jack Dorsey a little bit? 

472
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:22,800
I mean, we're getting a little 
further from it, but sure sure. 

473
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,000
Jack Dorsey lost a job and 
changed his other jobs. 

474
00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:30,500
I don't know. 
Parent company objective. 

475
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:33,200
I don't know how you do you 
explain it in one week. 

476
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,500
I mean, talk about PR strength. 
Yeah, he had a great 

477
00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:37,500
Thanksgiving. 
I feel like, how do I change the

478
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:42,400
narrative from the fact that I'm
not going to CEO of social media

479
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:43,200
company. 
I run. 

480
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,100
So the stories that have come 
out since about his stepping 

481
00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:49,700
down was that this was like the 
long gestating, you know, 

482
00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:53,000
accomplishment of Elliott 
management that like, when they 

483
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,900
break and they bought their 
activists position a couple of 

484
00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:58,600
years ago, even though they 
supposedly reach the daytime, 

485
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,800
like, the wheels were still in 
motion behind the scenes, like 

486
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,900
to oust him. 
Well, they got a board seat and 

487
00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:06,100
they sent growth expectations, 
which they were never get to it.

488
00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:08,700
It wasn't going to me, right? 
I mean, nobody expected this. 

489
00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:11,700
I mean, I don't cover the beat 
Beat that closely but it didn't 

490
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:15,900
seem like the Twitter reporters 
were, you know, trying to chase 

491
00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:17,600
this down. 
I mean, I'm not in a newsroom 

492
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,500
anymore, but I didn't get the 
sense that this was something 

493
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:24,000
that's super Savvy. 
Insiders were anticipating. 

494
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,800
It's just more like we want to 
let the world know that we're 

495
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,600
very crypto blockchain first, 
that's as far as it goes, right,

496
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,900
it's like if we're a financial 
company then you know, the 

497
00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:36,000
future is all about this. 
And so we need to change our 

498
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,700
name, which I actually kind of 
get. 

499
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,500
I mean it seems silly. 
It's a very influential pool. 

500
00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:44,300
I mean, clearly there, there 
have been a number and you 

501
00:25:44,308 --> 00:25:45,400
probably know more about this 
than me. 

502
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,400
But there have been a number of 
social networks over the years 

503
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,100
that have used Twitter's graph 
to try and build out networks, 

504
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:54,100
right? 
I mean, people like steal it, 

505
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:57,300
but sure, I mean, there was the 
whole live video phenomenon from

506
00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:01,700
like 2015 companies like meerkat
and Periscope, they bought. 

507
00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:03,900
And so it's like you have. 
I mean, this is sort of what we 

508
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:05,700
were saying earlier with Zach, 
right? 

509
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:09,500
If you get a product that works 
that people want to work, then 

510
00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:11,500
it can Take off. 
And obviously, they have the 

511
00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:16,100
audience to build off of. 
They just haven't figured out 

512
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,700
anything, that's truly, yes, or 
no viral, right? 

513
00:26:18,700 --> 00:26:21,700
But that's, there's a difference
between, you know, monetizing an

514
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:24,200
audience much better and 
actually growing to a much 

515
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,800
larger one, like one is a 
product issue. 

516
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,900
The other one is a business 
issue and from like a business 

517
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:33,200
standpoint, they've been 
successful in growing their, 

518
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:37,400
they basically built a business 
off of telling large Brands. 

519
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,500
Look, if you want to be where 
the conversation is happening, 

520
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,900
you Advertise on Twitter and so 
like a huge amount of their 

521
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:46,800
revenue comes from like Samsung 
announcing a new phone release 

522
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,900
or like movie studios pushing 
out, like, the release of a new 

523
00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:53,800
film is like event based 
advertising, but they had done a

524
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,800
really poor job, getting like 
direct-to-consumer stuff. 

525
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,700
You know, like the Click based 
advertising that Facebook and 

526
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:01,000
snap. 
Another People are cleaning up 

527
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,200
on because that's not the way 
people use Twitter, but they 

528
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,700
were making a lot of money from 
it. 

529
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,400
But again, that's so like, you 
know, if you look at their 

530
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,700
finances or like their business 
over the last couple years, 

531
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,800
Pretty good. 
I do think I'm developing this 

532
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:17,700
view but I I I think there are 
lots of sort of random 

533
00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:21,500
regulations that would make more
sense than, you know, 

534
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,500
anti-monopoly regulation that's 
sort of where I've, I'm 

535
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:28,300
personally building to and it 
does feel like we could have a 

536
00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:32,700
law that says social media 
companies need to stop 

537
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:36,300
maximizing. 
They can't try to get users to 

538
00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:38,500
stay on their apps for more than
after an hour. 

539
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:41,700
They need to start. 
Putting up barriers to them to 

540
00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:44,800
want to stay on like they need 
to distance and you know it 

541
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,300
looked just like it was like 
cigarettes or something, you 

542
00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:50,400
know, just like you put a 
warning on the packet you know 

543
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,600
there needs to be sort of you've
been on this for a long time or 

544
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,900
a literally you have to slow 
down sort of the dopamine hits 

545
00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:00,300
or whatever, you know II do 
think there's. 

546
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,300
So I my point with the story is,
obviously maximizing for time, 

547
00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:09,700
spent in the app can get extreme
and they are hacking. 

548
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,100
In human psychology. 
And there are things that 

549
00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:16,600
governments could do to say 
without breaking up companies or

550
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,700
even attacking companies. 
Just say, hey, we don't think as

551
00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:24,500
policy people should spend more 
than an hour a day on social 

552
00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:27,800
media and they're allowed, but 
you should discourage them and 

553
00:28:27,808 --> 00:28:30,700
you're not allowed to hack their
brains, if they did, well, China

554
00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:32,600
is probably the best example of 
that right now. 

555
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,300
Right? 
With esport are much more All or

556
00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:34,900
Nothing. 
Yeah. 

557
00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:36,700
You know, yeah. 
Which is funny that, you know, I

558
00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:40,200
guess the app that typifies like
the most addictive just Your 

559
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,400
dopamine, you know, injecting 
app is also, you know, built in 

560
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,800
a country where they've taken 
the most Hardline approach to 

561
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,100
like certain levels of computer 
addiction with Esports. 

562
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,500
Does this all connect though to 
Kevin ruses piece? 

563
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,700
From what was that last week? 
We're just talking about, like, 

564
00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:59,300
the need for Silicon Valley. 
Founders to try to reinvent 

565
00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:03,300
themselves or like focus on only
future oriented projects to kind

566
00:29:03,300 --> 00:29:06,200
of like get their groove back. 
Yeah, we could talk about that. 

567
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,600
Yeah, no, I mean, I think 
that's, that's the the direct 

568
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,000
connection between the two. 
Right. 

569
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,600
It's like we've seen Jack step 
aside, you know, Mark with the 

570
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,800
metaverse. 
I don't know what would like the

571
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,200
third thing that would make it a
trend? 

572
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,000
But basic well I think 
everything to do with crypto 

573
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,700
right now, the Google 
co-founders. 

574
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:23,600
I mean literally Sergei was 
founding like flying car 

575
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,000
companies, you know they've if 
it doesn't worry about a year 

576
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,100
ago I mean they've been away 
from the day-to-day for a bunch 

577
00:29:28,100 --> 00:29:33,400
of years now like you know Jack 
and well I mean I guess Jack I 

578
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,500
don't know that. 
That's a tough comparison, I 

579
00:29:35,508 --> 00:29:37,500
think. 
But the core idea is that they 

580
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:39,700
just want to seem focused on the
future. 

581
00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:42,800
Rather than as the stewards of 
the present, right? 

582
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,900
Because the present stocks and 
the hope is that they Kate does 

583
00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:47,900
it. 
I think this presents good and 

584
00:29:47,900 --> 00:29:51,000
we need to stop saying sucks but
that's like a very long 

585
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:51,900
argument. 
Okay? 

586
00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:54,500
Steven Pinker. 
I mean, I think they're point is

587
00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:57,500
that, you know, for them, they 
are more hated than they've ever

588
00:29:57,500 --> 00:29:59,500
been in their lives, rise 
Executives. 

589
00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:02,700
So from that perspective, their 
present sucks, but if they can 

590
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:06,400
help craft a future that is, you
know, full of the optimism that 

591
00:30:06,408 --> 00:30:09,000
we were talking about earlier. 
I mean, you know, that's just a 

592
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,800
purely kind of Cynical aspect of
it. 

593
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,800
I think they also just believe 
in it and want to like Focus 

594
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,000
their attention and time on it 
but that was that was like the 

595
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,300
core of his argument, right? 
Is that like Silicon Valley is 

596
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:23,600
looking for things that it can 
it can rally behind. 

597
00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:28,100
It's a kind of re-engage. 
The positive spirit that like 

598
00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:30,800
built the industry and like 
built their interest in it basic

599
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,100
Facebook's are should just shut 
down for a week and insist that 

600
00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:36,500
they're never going to come back
up and just see what all the 

601
00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:39,500
like takes would be, then people
would still fucking hate well 

602
00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:43,500
that Conspiracy theory of like 
when the right I was down right,

603
00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:45,500
remember that? 
That shitty documentary that 

604
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:48,700
came out like 10 years ago 
called the day without Mexicans.

605
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,000
I'm aware. 
If it was basically like this is

606
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,000
how, you know, our economy, our 
labor depend. 

607
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,800
Yeah, like our country and all 
its ways would cease to exist 

608
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,200
because, you know, we all the 
Mexicans literally. 

609
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,800
It's very yeah. 
I don't know how well it would 

610
00:31:03,808 --> 00:31:06,300
do if it came out now, but like,
I guess the version of that 

611
00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:08,000
would be like a day without 
Facebook, right. 

612
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,700
I mean like, what, what do you 
people do? 

613
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,800
Do you don't even realize like 
how which would that benefit 

614
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,600
them that much? 
I mean that was a not well, the 

615
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,600
people fundamentally want it 
more than they don't. 

616
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:22,400
And it would at least reframe 
sort of what this to be really 

617
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:23,900
is. 
Yeah, I mean, that's it does 

618
00:31:23,900 --> 00:31:26,600
sort of feel like there's a sort
of shut it all down, you're 

619
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,200
playing well a Sprite and you're
playing with fire with that. 

620
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,400
If you're the company because at
the same time, I mean this was a

621
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,800
number of takes that came out 
after the Facebook outage was 

622
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,300
that like they're actually way 
too powerful think about how 

623
00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:40,200
things cease to function and 
people couldn't Communicate with

624
00:31:40,208 --> 00:31:43,800
their families and ND on 
WhatsApp because it wasn't 

625
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,000
working. 
Well, it would, I mean, this 

626
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,700
goes back to sort of the thing 
we open this conversation with 

627
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,600
which is just if it's the case 
that we're like like the 

628
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,800
Technologies are inevitable, if 
they work, right? 

629
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,700
That sort of idea was what we 
sort of opened up talking about.

630
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,100
And the question is is it 
because they hack our brains or 

631
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:06,700
because they're better in a, 
genuine way and we prefer to use

632
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:10,800
them and it's sort of a hard 
debate to have Have when we have

633
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,900
access to the thing that could 
be hacking, our brain, right? 

634
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:18,300
So if Facebook goes away, we 
spend a month living without it.

635
00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:21,200
We do Bunch this studies and 
people are like, actually we're 

636
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,300
happier or we're not, you know, 
I mean it is sort of like I'd 

637
00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:27,300
like to run the I mean I guess 
we could do it without shutting 

638
00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:30,600
down we just but I'm sure 
there's this research now. 

639
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,200
I'm just sort of a junior level 
psych researcher. 

640
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,500
Now realizing this is very 
testable but but it does feel 

641
00:32:37,500 --> 00:32:41,300
like Yeah, I do. 
We do, we prefer. 

642
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,500
Are we happier with them? 
Or, I don't know this becomes. 

643
00:32:45,100 --> 00:32:47,000
What do you do? 
I would say, why do scientific 

644
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,800
research and we can just have 
anecdotal, first-person columns 

645
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,800
from reporters talking about, 
like I spent a month without any

646
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,400
Facebook. 
Here's how I felt which, I feel 

647
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,900
like, inevitably those articles 
always end up saying, I was the 

648
00:32:58,900 --> 00:33:01,800
same person or I didn't really 
feel any different. 

649
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,900
I remember wired. 
I think it was wired a couple 

650
00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:06,200
years ago, did one, where some 
person tried to live without 

651
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,000
email for a year? 
He was the full on fucking 

652
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,400
internet. 
I'll look it up, but either way 

653
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,200
I do remember the conclusion was
like I ended up being the same 

654
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,700
person. 
I always was and I mean, part of

655
00:33:17,700 --> 00:33:21,500
the problem and I think this is 
why you would want to see an 

656
00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:25,000
experiment with it. 
All shut down is just given that

657
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,200
we live in a world where 
everybody else uses it, giving 

658
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,200
it up, as much more difficult, 
because we're social animals and

659
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,400
people shame you for not being 
easily accessible. 

660
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,500
But if the technology is just 
gone, Then everyone has to 

661
00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:42,800
adjust and maybe that adjust 
radius is half, right? 

662
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,000
Because you're in with, you're 
just living on the outside of a 

663
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,600
party if it's just, you would 
have to be Universal, right? 

664
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,500
IE10 to think they're happier 
with it, but I do think 

665
00:33:53,900 --> 00:33:58,400
Tick-Tock is very addictive and 
I would like to spend less time 

666
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,600
on it, but you would be amazed 
mean if you take it off your 

667
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,300
phone, how little you use of it?
I mean it you know because 

668
00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:06,800
there's an example of like you 
know living on the backbone of 

669
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,400
another platform like I only 
consume Tick-Tock through 

670
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,000
Twitter, you know, when people 
post a video of it all like I 

671
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,800
like you deleted it or you never
had. 

672
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,400
I had it for like a month. 
I was it was it was killing me. 

673
00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:20,900
Like I was just spending, I 
should delete it. 

674
00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:24,300
Your yeah, I would just wake up 
like at 6:30 and just sit in bed

675
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:27,300
until like eight. 
Just going through videos not 

676
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:30,900
entirely on Tick-Tock but yeah, 
no, I mean it's the promise. 

677
00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:34,100
I'm not a happy, I do something 
fucking guy, enjoy some of them.

678
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,500
I do get a little sense of the 
culture, I like it. 

679
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,500
But it is not deep meaning you 
know, they I there I guess there

680
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:46,199
is some part of me that's like 
oh there's value in Tick-Tock 

681
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:50,500
but I guess never never more on 
a permanent basis than just like

682
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:53,699
reading a book. 
Would have you want to talk 

683
00:34:53,699 --> 00:34:54,900
about BuzzFeed? 
Sorry. 

684
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:58,100
I kind of cut off the tick tock 
tock but I mean, you're the one 

685
00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:00,500
who needs to have takes, I'm 
sure of takes, but what's the 

686
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:04,500
central observation on BuzzFeed?
Well, so BuzzFeed for our 

687
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:08,300
listeners had its first day of 
trading on the NASDAQ Actually, 

688
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:14,800
so it's tech company and it 
didn't go very well in its I saw

689
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,000
somebody was holding a sign on 
the listing. 

690
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:19,800
Thank God, we didn't get 
acquired by waste our. 

691
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,800
Do you see that they had like 
behind Jonah Peretti look, some 

692
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:23,800
BuzzFeed. 
Exactly. 

693
00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:27,600
Just sort of a joke. 
I assume he asked the company or

694
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,000
the company told him to do and 
it was meant to make them seem 

695
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,100
like quirky. 
So on Friday, in which they had 

696
00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:35,800
the man I'm going to fuck this 
up it on Friday. 

697
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,700
There was like a process in 
which they basically figured 

698
00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:40,900
Whether or not the investors who
had put money into the spec 

699
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:44,700
vehicle, we're going to leave 
their money in there in advance 

700
00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:47,700
of its first day of trading and 
basically a shitload of 

701
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:50,800
investors pulled their money 
out, meaning that the initial 

702
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,100
200 plus million dollars that 
were sitting in. 

703
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,100
You know, the shell company 
ended up being around like 15 

704
00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:01,200
million dollars. 
So like the cash that 

705
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:02,800
theoretically what did they 
want? 

706
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,100
Well they wanted 200 plus 
million. 

707
00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:07,700
I mean you know that was the 
cash that was sitting. 

708
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,300
Inside this, you know, shell 
company that yeah. 

709
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:13,600
It's terrible, right? 
So yes they did not get we 

710
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,200
obviously it's part of a general
Trend. 

711
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,500
That's pipes have been right 
where oh pipes have been 

712
00:36:18,500 --> 00:36:20,400
difficult. 
So getting the and they didn't 

713
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,300
have a big pipe, right? 
That's part of the issue. 

714
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,200
These pipes have been bad and 
then redemptions have been 

715
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,800
banned, right? 
So then you get public with very

716
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,200
little cash from there for the 
transaction. 

717
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,700
Which I mean they did Issue a 
convertible note so, you know, 

718
00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:35,900
there's obviously a lot more 
strings attached to it than just

719
00:36:35,900 --> 00:36:37,700
like the cash that comes from a 
merger. 

720
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,600
But you know, they do have I 
think like 150 or something 

721
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,400
million from that note. 
But no like this was not a huge 

722
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,300
financing event that you would 
typically see with an IPO so far

723
00:36:49,300 --> 00:36:50,800
as that goes like big fucking 
with. 

724
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,000
But now you know it had its 
first day of trading it closed 

725
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,200
down so that's not great and 
it's not a great market right 

726
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,100
now. 
So I don't think it's going to 

727
00:37:00,100 --> 00:37:03,100
get better anytime soon, it's 
going to be pretty rough for 

728
00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:05,500
them would be my like, 
short-term Outlook. 

729
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:08,400
And I have no idea who would 
like a Fire them. 

730
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:10,500
Well, I think the point is that 
they're going to be acquiring. 

731
00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:13,800
Other companies like, like, 
Jonah's going around doing 

732
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,800
interviews with Peter Kafka and,
you know, the New York Times and

733
00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:19,400
a bunch of other places, not us.
Who were they acquire? 

734
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,100
I mean, clearly, like people 
talked about a Vox BuzzFeed 

735
00:37:23,100 --> 00:37:26,400
merger you up on succession. 
By the way, I watched it. 

736
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,800
I watch like it. 
Ever merger of equals, right? 

737
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,300
Exactly. 
Who is he supposed to be Mojo? 

738
00:37:33,300 --> 00:37:36,900
The CEO of the I assume he's 
supposed to be an Elan type, but

739
00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:39,200
running a very different Okay, 
but I think it's like Elon, plus

740
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,000
Daniel Eck. 
It was my take. 

741
00:37:41,100 --> 00:37:43,800
I mean the the company I think 
is supposed to be like it's a 

742
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,900
video streaming service but also
has like sports rights and 

743
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:48,600
bedding. 
So it's like a mixture of like 

744
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:53,400
Spotify and like does own and 
maybe a little bit like Draft 

745
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,100
Kings or Barstool. 
I don't know. 

746
00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:58,200
I don't know how, right? 
It seems like clearly Eli's that

747
00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:01,100
I mean you know as not exactly 
what him like tweeting stuff out

748
00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:03,400
that would have liked material 
effect on the stock price and 

749
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,900
doing drugs and sort of being 
like A great honor manure, 

750
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,200
right? 
Right, we should anyway. 

751
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,200
Yeah we can have a when the 
succession finale of succession 

752
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,800
episode would be fun. 
Oh yeah, after the finale, we 

753
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,300
can do on. 
Did you read the New Yorker 

754
00:38:17,300 --> 00:38:18,500
article? 
Yeah, I read it right before 

755
00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:21,900
this, it was pretty crazy. 
Yeah, well, oh my God. 

756
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:24,600
Spoilers spoilers okay, 
spoilers, but do you think 

757
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,200
Kendall don't know? 
I don't, I just think that would

758
00:38:27,207 --> 00:38:30,800
be bad story writing and they're
pretty good about that on the 

759
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,700
show. 
So, I mean, I think he's like 

760
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:35,800
clearly hit some sort of rock 
bottom, but like to have one of 

761
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,800
your Central character dies. 
Go to Sarah Jo actually. 

762
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,500
Sorry. 
That's my girlfriend was 

763
00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:43,100
analyzing. 
I actually sort of think the 

764
00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:46,200
opposite that would be bad 
storytelling not to kill him 

765
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:48,800
because it would just be like 
what he's going to be waking up 

766
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:53,300
in the water just like a total. 
Fake out is lame for show in a 

767
00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,500
network. 
Certainly that's supposed to be 

768
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,300
sort of cool and legit. 
I don't know, I guess I think 

769
00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:02,000
they've teased it. 
Like, I mean obviously teasing 

770
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,400
is almost too weak of a word. 
I mean he's flirting with 

771
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:05,900
suicide clearly throughout the 
show. 

772
00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:10,800
And then symbolically, there's 
been a lot of suicide stuff. 

773
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,800
But who would BuzzFeed acquire? 
I mean, the list is increasingly

774
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,300
small. 
There are companies that they 

775
00:39:17,300 --> 00:39:20,000
were supposed to be merging with
in the past, like, group 9. 

776
00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:21,600
That's the one with the layer, 
right? 

777
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,100
Right. 
They own the Dota or yeah, I'm 

778
00:39:24,107 --> 00:39:26,500
sorry. 
It's the dodo, it's thrillist. 

779
00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:29,900
It's now this news or what. 
Now this. 

780
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,700
Yeah, it's a collection of sites
like a holding company this icy 

781
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:36,100
way less about them. 
Yeah. 

782
00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:39,400
Because only the election was, 
yeah, I mean, they hate it. 

783
00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:41,300
They were like a big deal the 
time because they didn't have a 

784
00:39:41,308 --> 00:39:45,400
home page, you know, they 
existed only as like a media 

785
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,700
company that on other platforms.
So I'm Tom is the expert in 

786
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:51,700
digital media used to cover a 
lot. 

787
00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:53,200
What happened to Mike by the 
way? 

788
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:55,600
Well they went under I mean they
got acquired by bustle. 

789
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,000
We can talk about that with 
Brian. 

790
00:39:57,500 --> 00:40:00,200
The mic story is actually kind 
of a Ryan Goldberg. 

791
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,200
I'm sorry come on sorry we want 
him on. 

792
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,300
We run them right? 
That's not a promise. 

793
00:40:04,300 --> 00:40:05,900
He's coming. 
Yeah it seemed like him. 

794
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:10,800
Come on, Mike basically ran out 
of cash after they lost a 

795
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,600
Facebook video deal and sold 
desperately and very meekly to 

796
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,200
Mike for like, under 10 million 
dollars when they were like, 

797
00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:19,900
capitalized, a friend who work 
there. 

798
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:23,300
They seem like the worse. 
Now, comic is used to talk to 

799
00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:27,400
those guys a lot, but they 
flamed out, I mean, it was just 

800
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,700
a bad business. 
Ultimately, and they, you know, 

801
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:33,700
their last, they basically were 
in the way that like, you know, 

802
00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:35,900
Madmen like the firm was 
entirely reliant on. 

803
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:37,600
Lucky Strike cigarettes. 
Hmm. 

804
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,600
They were hugely reliant on this
deal with Facebook for a video 

805
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,900
show when Facebook watch was 
like, throwing out money left 

806
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:46,300
and right, and Facebook, cancel 
their show, and that was it. 

807
00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:49,000
And so, they sold to bustle for,
not a lot of money. 

808
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:51,800
I think they are still a 
website, like they do publish 

809
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,700
things but they're like a shell 
of themselves. 

810
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,300
But yeah, it's another one of 
those Brian Goldberg buys a 

811
00:40:57,300 --> 00:41:01,300
company, like, basically off the
trash eat situation so that, 

812
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:02,300
that was them. 
So, you're smart. 

813
00:41:02,300 --> 00:41:05,000
You're not buying that smart if 
there's any value to them. 

814
00:41:05,100 --> 00:41:08,400
I mean, he did this. 
With Gawker, I think TBD on 

815
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,300
whether there's value there but 
I feel like they haven't really 

816
00:41:10,300 --> 00:41:13,300
been cutting through. 
Well The Gawker thing is funny 

817
00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:16,000
to me because I read their 
articles. 

818
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:20,300
Like I think they're good and 
smart but it's like you know 

819
00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:23,600
they also bought this company. 
The outline, remember them that 

820
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,900
was Josh to post these site. 
We also sold for like Pennies on

821
00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:32,400
the dollar like he works now for
Brian but the outline is dead as

822
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,100
a site but basically they 
relaunch Gawker and like 

823
00:41:35,100 --> 00:41:37,100
stylistically. 
It's The same exact thing as the

824
00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:39,500
alpha life. 
So basically like he bought the 

825
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:41,600
outline. 
Shut it down bought Gawker, try 

826
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,000
to relaunch it and just made it 
the outline which was already a 

827
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,100
failed business, so I don't. 
But I mean obviously the content

828
00:41:48,100 --> 00:41:49,900
matters way more than the 
design. 

829
00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:52,300
It's more. 
The content is more like, well, 

830
00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:55,000
I thought the content on the 
outline was good but The Gawker,

831
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,500
but they're very different 
style. 

832
00:41:56,500 --> 00:41:59,800
Not really, I mean, I sort of 
really you think it's like the 

833
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,600
LIC, the new Gawker is like, 
very reminiscent of the. 

834
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,200
I mean, the Allen had reporting.
There were reporters that I 

835
00:42:05,207 --> 00:42:07,000
worked with. 
Keep that came from there. 

836
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,400
So, there's maybe that elements 
of it but like the kind of hip 

837
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,000
and smart takes on. 
Any number of things going on in

838
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,500
the world, I just think the 
truly like fiery, like 

839
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:19,300
dangerous. 
This is going to really takes 

840
00:42:19,300 --> 00:42:23,800
these days would flirt with like
fighting with woke people and I 

841
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,300
don't think Gawker wants to do 
that, right? 

842
00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:30,000
Well that I'm not fighting with 
woke people right there on their

843
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,800
team. 
Whoa, yeah more than which like 

844
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,500
is so so like that's what the 
President's party is you're just

845
00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:41,200
like very much like on the side 
of like the dominant culture 

846
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,800
like what's sort of like cutting
about that. 

847
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,600
That's where the New York Times.
I don't know. 

848
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,500
I've read a bunch of articles on
Gawker, that I think are great. 

849
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,200
Like I thought there were really
well. 

850
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,400
Written pieces. 
Probably burned by Freelancers. 

851
00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:55,300
I like the piece about Brian 
Goldberg, like the whole like, 

852
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,300
there was a good day one that 
right at a strong day one, I 

853
00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:00,900
read them. 
I just don't see the reason to 

854
00:43:00,900 --> 00:43:03,500
exist. 
I don't you know, the number of 

855
00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:07,600
sites that BuzzFeed would want 
to buy is Small and none of them

856
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,500
are actively trying to sell 
themselves to BuzzFeed. 

857
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:12,900
So there's Vice, there's Vox. 
And then there's group 9, the 

858
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:15,700
group, 9 deal has been tried 
multiple times, and it keeps 

859
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:17,600
getting abandoned. 
I think it would be like a 

860
00:43:17,607 --> 00:43:22,200
complete mess cap, table wise. 
And then there's Vox which has 

861
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,400
no interest in selling, they 
think they're a much better 

862
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:25,500
business. 
The BuzzFeed. 

863
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:28,400
They probably want to go public 
through like I don't know. 

864
00:43:28,408 --> 00:43:31,800
This is like a year out of date 
information, but there was talk 

865
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,400
about them. 
Just pursuing a traditional IPO 

866
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,500
a year ago. 
Go and then Vice how well can 

867
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:40,800
Vox be doing? 
Like I just I think they're just

868
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,500
a better run business, just Jim 
bankoff. 

869
00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:47,000
The CEO is like a more 
responsible spender of money 

870
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,000
than Jonah was is what people 
tell me. 

871
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:55,200
So I yeah, I that's the argument
that people close to the company

872
00:43:55,200 --> 00:44:00,700
made at the time but you know, 
like you gotta like, eventually 

873
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:04,600
you have to show your numbers 
back to Jonah, BuzzFeed like he 

874
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,900
is wanted to go public A long 
time. 

875
00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:12,300
Like I remember back when I was 
at the information 2017 or 

876
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:16,000
something, he did a panel 
interview with Jessica and me 

877
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,200
and he was talking about like 
the value in going public is not

878
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,400
just to, like, prove to yourself
that you're a publicly traded 

879
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,300
company but like, you know, the 
virtues of being public or good 

880
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:28,300
for any business, which is like 
showing profit forecasting 

881
00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:29,800
numbers. 
It's so embarrassing. 

882
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,900
How long the these companies can
promise that they're going to go

883
00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:35,300
public? 
Because every outlet that gets, 

884
00:44:35,300 --> 00:44:38,300
it gets another Other headline, 
buzzfeed's thinking about Ryan 

885
00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:41,400
talk like anchors and right. 
And then it's just like, it 

886
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,500
never happens there. 
No consequences. 

887
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:45,900
It's just like, yeah. 
If I ever start a business, I'm 

888
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:47,800
just going to tell people, I'm 
going to go public and two 

889
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,900
years. 
Well, it's the true at the time,

890
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,300
you know, get-out-of-jail-free 
card that every journalist use 

891
00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:55,100
it though was in his heart of 
hearts, you know, true that he 

892
00:44:55,100 --> 00:44:58,200
said it at the time, but like I 
think they really, really, I 

893
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,100
think they were, I mean, I don't
know. 

894
00:45:00,100 --> 00:45:02,500
I never broke any stories about 
it, so I didn't have good 

895
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,300
reading on it. 
And there was lots of 

896
00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:07,500
disagreement because NBC is 
their Shareholder and there was 

897
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:09,000
huge. 
Disagreement, NBC about what the

898
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,500
actual value of BuzzFeed was. 
I mean there were people I 

899
00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:14,200
talked to the thought it was 
worth like at a time that you 

900
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,900
know, NBC valued at it like 1.7 
million post-money. 

901
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,700
There are people inside and BC 
the thought was worth like 600 

902
00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:24,700
million or something. 
So that whole investment is 

903
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:26,500
fascinating story, that no one's
really written. 

904
00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:30,500
Would you would you think about,
by the way, the BuzzFeed Union 

905
00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:34,000
action as BuzzFeed, was dese 
packing. 

906
00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:35,700
I mean, I got it's a little 
touchy talking. 

907
00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:37,400
Out Union stuff. 
I'm in the midst. 

908
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:38,700
I know that's why I brought it 
up. 

909
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:43,100
That's what's good content? 
I mean, I would say the fact 

910
00:45:43,100 --> 00:45:45,300
that they haven't gotten their 
contract ratified yet is 

911
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:48,700
probably incredibly frustrating 
to the union, like they voted a 

912
00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:52,300
year and a half ago, you know, 
to form a union like the the 

913
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:55,100
staffers voted for it. 
So like there's a incredible 

914
00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:57,800
internal push. 
The fact they haven't reached 

915
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,200
and go like we're in 
negotiations. 

916
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:04,000
Now, I can say that with our 
owner to figure out a contract. 

917
00:46:04,300 --> 00:46:07,900
I think it was like, Opportunity
for them to publicize the fact 

918
00:46:07,900 --> 00:46:10,900
that they haven't gotten a 
contract ratified, but also I 

919
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:13,700
think it kind of maybe 
overrated, like I think they 

920
00:46:13,700 --> 00:46:16,900
were trying to make some like 
public demonstration that like 

921
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:18,700
look this company's doing so 
well. 

922
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:21,700
They're about to go public and 
yet they're unwilling to strike 

923
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:25,100
a deal with it, so yeah, 
exactly, that's insane. 

924
00:46:25,300 --> 00:46:27,400
I was like, no, your come, you 
need to help your company do 

925
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,600
well soon, get anything like, so
they can do to example, take the

926
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,200
Union exist in, you know, 
competition with the success of 

927
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,000
BuzzFeed as a company, but I do 
think Think if they were trying 

928
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,700
to sell a message that like look
at these fucking fat cats that 

929
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:41,900
are going public now. 
And yet they're unwilling to 

930
00:46:41,900 --> 00:46:44,900
meet our meager demands as a 
union is like yeah it's not that

931
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:48,300
kind of an IPO guys, right? 
Yes, I couldn't agree with you 

932
00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:50,200
more that. 
Yeah, that's exactly. 

933
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:54,100
That's what I want you to say. 
Yeah, it sort of makes sense 

934
00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:56,700
when they look when BuzzFeed 
looks wealthy. 

935
00:46:56,700 --> 00:47:01,900
But when they look beleaguered 
then it's sort of like oh man 

936
00:47:01,900 --> 00:47:03,600
and their employees. 
Give them a hard time. 

937
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,200
Like what's this company? 
Even work. 

938
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,600
I think that's the Other 
problems right now. 

939
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,500
I think they can deal with that.
They clearly managed to get by 

940
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:11,900
even with employees. 
You know. 

941
00:47:11,900 --> 00:47:15,000
Not having a contract for it's 
like over a year that they 

942
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,300
agreed to that, they voted to 
unionize but like, I don't know 

943
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:21,300
to me like, BuzzFeed going 
public, I use this analogy a 

944
00:47:21,308 --> 00:47:24,700
lot, but I think it's follow me 
with this until this makes 

945
00:47:24,700 --> 00:47:27,500
sense, but to me, BuzzFeed going
public is kind of like when 

946
00:47:27,500 --> 00:47:30,800
Conan O'Brien host of The 
Tonight Show which is like it 

947
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,000
was something that he'd wanted 
to do for his entire career like

948
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,300
since he was a kid but like 
watching Johnny And he's like, I

949
00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:38,400
really want to host it tonight 
show and like through an 

950
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,000
unbelievable collection of 
events in his life. 

951
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,900
He actually did, you know, host 
a late night show that came on 

952
00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:46,100
after The Tonight Show and then 
the host of that show left and 

953
00:47:46,100 --> 00:47:48,300
like, holy shit, they made him 
the host of The Tonight Show, 

954
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,500
and then he got there and he was
a fucking nightmare, you know, 

955
00:47:51,500 --> 00:47:52,800
right. 
It's like the ratings were 

956
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,800
plummeting, like he was the last
person that like The Tonight 

957
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,700
Show as a concept has like 
crumbled. 

958
00:47:58,700 --> 00:48:01,800
It's no longer this like 
monolithic cultural institution.

959
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,000
It's just like one of many 
things that now basically exists

960
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,400
as like YouTube, Yes, that's a 
couple years down the line but 

961
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,900
like so Conan gets there and 
it's like he probably cared more

962
00:48:10,900 --> 00:48:14,600
about it than anyone else did. 
And it's useless now and I kind 

963
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:15,800
of feel it's the same thing with
BuzzFeed. 

964
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,100
It's like Jonas wanted to go 
public for so long. 

965
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:21,600
He thinks it's like a great you 
know and to a degree it is like 

966
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,700
it's a great accomplishment for 
a company to be you know traded 

967
00:48:24,700 --> 00:48:27,100
in that way. 
And yet like now what do you do?

968
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,700
Like you're here and you're now 
you know stuck to the whims of 

969
00:48:30,700 --> 00:48:36,500
investors and you know reporting
quarterly and you you are having

970
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:38,900
to be compared to much more 
profitable companies like the 

971
00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:41,100
New York Times and people figure
out your multiple. 

972
00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:43,000
You can't wave, you know like 
Tech. 

973
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:47,400
You know, magic dust around your
company's mission statement and 

974
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,200
claim that you should be valued 
at a higher multiple. 

975
00:48:49,700 --> 00:48:52,400
There's no media companies that 
have gone public in the last. 

976
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,800
I can't even think of the last 
Media company that went public. 

977
00:48:55,300 --> 00:48:57,200
Like, what do you do now? 
Jonah, I don't know. 

978
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,000
It's it's not, there's no easy 
answer to it. 

979
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:06,200
My my concluding thought on this
is that hopefully soon, we In 

980
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:11,300
put to rest, my least. 
Favorite genre of story which is

981
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:15,000
when will bend Smith divest his 
BuzzFeed shares. 

982
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:20,200
So that his New York Times 
column is ethically sound and 

983
00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:21,800
more than Town people written 
that. 

984
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:25,100
I'm like well I care too many. 
It was late. 

985
00:49:25,500 --> 00:49:28,500
Then why I didn't advise her 
Gawker didn't think someone or 

986
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,400
something. 
Yeah, is oriented. 

987
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,400
So they just they just drive me 
insane. 

988
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,700
It's like yeah. 
It's also just I mean Yeah the 

989
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:41,100
media ethics purity of it are 
just like there's so many, I 

990
00:49:41,100 --> 00:49:42,800
don't know. 
That's a whole can of worms. 

991
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,600
Yeah well I hold no shares a 
newcomer LLC so I can speak 

992
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,700
freely about the value of that 
company. 

993
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,700
The you're probably have like I 
mean this is exactly the point. 

994
00:49:53,700 --> 00:49:56,900
You probably have clearly it's 
in your interest in newcomer 

995
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,000
does well. 
Like, even if you don't own 

996
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,900
shares, I mean, they're all 
sorts of biases that people have

997
00:50:02,300 --> 00:50:04,900
outside of exact shares and 
like, is he really not going to 

998
00:50:04,900 --> 00:50:06,600
want BuzzFeed? 
To do. 

999
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,200
Well, if he doesn't own shares 
anymore, like, I don't know. 

1000
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,600
But isn't it? 
Don't you love the point where 

1001
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,700
you're talking to an 
ex-employee, at a company on 

1002
00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:17,700
background and their shit, 
talking it and then they're just

1003
00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:19,800
like, look, I'm a shareholder 
still. 

1004
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,700
So I would like nothing more 
than to see this company do well

1005
00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:25,600
but it like it hurts me to see 
what's going on there right now.

1006
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,300
It's like yeah, I'm sure it 
really hurts. 

1007
00:50:27,300 --> 00:50:30,400
You you're talking this much? 
Should they think that by 

1008
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,000
talking shit about it? 
They're going to get the change 

1009
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,100
they want which will make I want
every Source. 

1010
00:50:35,100 --> 00:50:37,600
I think that By the way, I think
that's the most pure form of 

1011
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,400
source. 
And I never wanted this to be 

1012
00:50:42,500 --> 00:50:46,900
for serious, serious accusations
of wrongdoing and things like 

1013
00:50:46,900 --> 00:50:48,400
that. 
I do believe that's the case, 

1014
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:50,900
right? 
A certain number of people, just

1015
00:50:50,900 --> 00:50:53,300
aggrieved. 
Why I feel like we covered a lot

1016
00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:56,500
of ground in this conversation. 
So we'll see. 

1017
00:50:56,500 --> 00:51:00,100
We'll see what makes it all out 
in the end, but good. 

1018
00:51:00,100 --> 00:51:02,600
Good catching up after a long. 
Sorry, about the long Hiatus 

1019
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,200
listeners being off for a week 
and a half, but we're going to 

1020
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,900
go back to our A regularly 
scheduled weekly Cadence. 

1021
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,100
We're now trying to publish on 
Tuesdays. 

1022
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,100
We're not swearing up and down 
yet. 

1023
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,100
We get about this will be good, 
we'll try, we're 

1024
00:51:15,100 --> 00:51:17,500
professionalizing, you know, 
right? 

1025
00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:19,500
Right and Katie will be back 
soon to. 

1026
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,300
So anyway, thanks for listening 
and we'll see you guys all back 

1027
00:51:23,300 --> 00:51:37,900
here next episode. 
So if I'm Valerie, So work on 

1028
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:46,900
Sally, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1029
00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:49,500
Goodbye goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye.