1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,160 Hey everybody, it's your newcomer for the week. 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:06,760 It's Tom Doughton here, joined by Eric newcomer Madeline 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,600 Renberger. We got Eric pretending to be at 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,880 his home. He's got a fake background, but 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,400 I know the real truth, which is that he's in San Francisco. 6 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,480 I love how Tom has this like great deep voice but then his 7 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,640 intro voice is like two octaves up. 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,840 Yeah, that's called the energy. I I I bring that high pitched 9 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,000 energy that people like, none of that monotonous low tone stuff. 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,000 How? Brings the shrill energy we need 11 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,640 more of on this podcast. You can't describe men's voice 12 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:36,800 as shrill. It's deeply. 13 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,680 It's. It's just not allowed. 14 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,320 There's a whole TV show about it. 15 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,120 I think we got a lot to get through in this episode here. 16 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,520 But I, I have to start off for those of you not watching on 17 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,120 video, Eric is joining us, as I mentioned earlier, pretending to 18 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,560 be at his home, Although I know the truth, which is that he's in 19 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,240 Union Square at a hotel with cement floors, but he's got a 20 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,480 flat brim hat on. He's a flat brim guy and he 21 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,480 recently just came from an exclusive conference that gave 22 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,120 him this flatburn hat that marks the beginning of conference 23 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,920 season and actually good dimension conferences because we 24 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,360 have the newcomer Breaking the Bank conference coming up next 25 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,080 week. And before we even get into your 26 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,640 private excursion conference, Eric, can you just give us some 27 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,560 details on on breaking the bank? Why should we? 28 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,080 Why should we get people excited about it? 29 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,600 Breaking mega, we're going to have the CEO of Gusto Plaid, 30 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,000 we're going to have the founder of Bridge, which you know, is 31 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,600 bringing stable coins to Stripe. The topic of the day. 32 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:37,760 We're very fortunate that Chime filed to go public this week and 33 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:43,000 we had a tech IPO and E Toro. So I think people will have some 34 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,880 enthusiasm. So yeah, we're going to have 35 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,800 some most of the top private fintech companies in the same 36 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,160 room in San Francisco on Tuesday. 37 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,360 Yeah, I believe the slogan of the summit is Fintech is back 38 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:55,840 baby. So. 39 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,560 Right, which we will get to later in the episode as you just 40 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,640 recently Madeline wrote a whole article about the backness of 41 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,400 fintech. But Eric, I got to hear about 42 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,200 this hat. I got to hear about your 43 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,600 conference. So the the conference I was in 44 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:12,280 Park City, UT at like very bougie retreat. 45 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,240 The event was under Chatham House rules. 46 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,840 So I am somewhat restricted in what I can say fundamentally, 47 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,280 I'm allowed to talk about the ideas, but not exactly who was 48 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,920 there. The event was, it's the first 49 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:30,400 year blue sky put on by the venture capital firm Dimension 50 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,720 and the biotech company Recursion. 51 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,440 And you know, it was attended by sort of a who's who of biotech, 52 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,680 pharma and tech people. Honestly, it was sort of a new 53 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,560 crowd for me. I knew some of them, but you 54 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,360 know, I'm not deep in like the biotech world at all. 55 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,560 And then I I moderated 2 panels that were super interesting and 56 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,920 shot some clay pigeons and you know. 57 00:02:58,080 --> 00:02:59,520 You shot clay pigeons? Yeah. 58 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,760 It was actually pretty good. My team in our our little bit 1. 59 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,920 So yeah, clay pigeons. Congrats. 60 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,800 Yeah, that's that's work. You know, I was hard to hard at 61 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,760 work networking while shooting clay pigeons. 62 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:14,440 You're allowed to describe that. Chatham Health Rules allows you 63 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,680 to describe your pigeon victories, but in terms of 64 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,440 specific attendees in your group. 65 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,160 No, no, no, OK, I can talk about it. 66 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,920 So the big idea is, I think honestly one thing that I 67 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:27,120 thought was super interesting to come out of it is that, you 68 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,040 know, people in biotech are genuinely concerned about Trump 69 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,040 cutting all this funding to universities because all that 70 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,840 research funding is, is the beginning of, you know, bio and 71 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,120 pharma companies. It's all sort of nice research 72 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,440 that then, you know, the corporate world uses to come up 73 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,800 with their ideas. So there was, there was genuine 74 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:50,360 concern. Well, yeah. 75 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,240 And, and so what's, what's their response to that, though? 76 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,840 Are they just hoping that, like, wealthy philanthropist donors 77 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,680 are going to fill in those gaps and like they can keep the money 78 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,800 trained for biotech startups rolling? 79 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:01,520 Or like what's? Well, I think there, you know, 80 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,040 there's one attitude, which is just like we play the, you know, 81 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,840 the game on the field and sort of they'll adjust. 82 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,680 I think there's some belief that schools like Harvard, despite 83 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,640 their stance, will ultimately sort of cut a deal and this 84 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,000 situation won't go on forever. But I think people were pretty 85 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,400 clear that the cuts are going to be damaging and have a long term 86 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,400 effect. So I don't think there's getting 87 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,280 around it. But yeah, there's going to have 88 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:33,080 to be more private research. And, you know, I guess it's a 89 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:38,000 win for the likes of what Microsoft Research and DeepMind 90 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,160 and sort of the corporate academia is, is going to be more 91 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,600 important than ever. Do people discuss much? 92 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,760 I mean, the the talent risk also with the policy crackdowns 93 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,600 around immigration, I mean, was that a topic that came out much? 94 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,120 China was a big theme. I, I continue, this wasn't set 95 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,080 on stage, but I continue to be confused by the China tensions 96 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,920 overall because everybody, everybody's clearly getting the 97 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,000 cues that like we, we have to be very hostile to China. 98 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,800 And there's this breakup. But at the same time, every 99 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,120 business basically wants to work with China as much as they can. 100 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,240 People don't really seem to understand the intellectual 101 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,600 nature. I mean, I, I think there was a 102 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,720 sentiment on stage that China is a self-sustaining economy. 103 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,480 Even if we cut them off from our own economy, they are going to 104 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,840 continue to develop and make progress. 105 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:30,080 So do we really cut them off at the knees if if we block them? 106 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,280 So I, I don't think people really sort of understood how 107 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:36,320 we're supposed to block China in that way. 108 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,240 And yeah, I mean, American labs depend on Chinese talent, so 109 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,360 that that's going to hurt our research capacity. 110 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,000 China is also making it difficult for Chinese 111 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,160 researchers to stay here. You know, AI is a super 112 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,600 important area to them. And so I think they literally 113 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,880 call back some of their people. I wonder where like the American 114 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:55,920 dynamism thesis fits into that though. 115 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:57,680 Right. Like theoretically more 116 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,320 homegrown talent, more companies developing biotech or 117 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,480 pharmaceuticals in the US should be part of that. 118 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,400 But I haven't seen any of the end recent people stepping up 119 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,040 and saying the crackdown universities is like 120 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,120 antithetical to the American dynamism. 121 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,800 I know well they want to build new institutions. 122 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,160 Right. They want to build the next 123 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,160 American wave. Yeah. 124 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,920 The University of Austin is not so far like a beacon of success, 125 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:25,600 from what I can tell on the outside. 126 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,640 That's the yeah, sort of Joe Lonsdale school. 127 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,520 Well, just some quick other bullets. 128 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,680 Biotech is obviously in a terrible downturn. 129 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,000 I think in tech world, we don't see it. 130 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,560 But like, if tech feels like there's been a downturn, biotech 131 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,240 is like, oh man, got destroyed. So that's been brutal. 132 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,920 I think people are really excited like in tech world about 133 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,760 artificial intelligence. And there's certainly a lot of 134 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,120 companies running, you know, AI transcription, but also drug 135 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,280 discovery using generative models. 136 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,640 Yeah, how is how are people feeling about AI boosted drug 137 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,640 discovery right now? Because that was a pretty hot 138 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,080 space that even generalist investors were getting into. 139 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:03,880 You know, we wrote about that last summer. 140 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,400 Well, it felt like every drug discovery company was AI to some 141 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:09,560 degree. You know, it's like, oh, you're 142 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,480 old generation, but we're powering up, or you're the brand 143 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,120 new company and you're like, oh, we're gonna do it from the very 144 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,200 beginning. So I think everybody's saying 145 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:18,760 it. I don't think anybody can claim 146 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,760 that they've fully discovered a drug. 147 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:22,720 You know, these companies take forever. 148 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:24,960 Drug discovery companies take forever to build. 149 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,880 And so people will get very excited about companies that 150 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,440 still don't have, you know, a drug that they're actually 151 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,640 selling to consumers. The final bullet is obviously 152 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,640 Ozempic looms large. You know, Ozempic, is that a 153 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,160 metaphor for longevity drugs overall? 154 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,080 You know, when you see a drug that's successful, people are 155 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,520 like, oh, should we be staging out our drugs like that? 156 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,880 Should we have a more, you know, whereas Ozempic, you're getting 157 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,480 different doses, sized doses over time. 158 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,400 And also this sense that it's a drug that sort of helps people 159 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,360 in lots of ways is not necessarily targeting disease, 160 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,200 which and feeds into the overall longevity conversation. 161 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,560 So, you know, people are certainly watching the success 162 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,360 of Ozempic and Wagova and everything and thinking how does 163 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,040 that affect our companies? I like the idea that something 164 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,760 like Ozempic or Wagovi like that. 165 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,680 The lesson to be taken from it is like, it's the way that they 166 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,800 measure out the doses and like it's the, it's, it's the 167 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,280 recurring, recurring product model of it, not that it's like 168 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,680 having actual tangible impact on people's health. 169 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,480 No, it's, it's the weight loss as a subscription service where 170 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,160 we're really. Making a difference, yeah, I 171 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:32,640 call it the fat shot drug, by the way. 172 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,240 That's my thing. But that's a classic tech 173 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,120 mindset. LinkedIn, LinkedIn brain is like 174 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,960 looking at something like that. What can you learn from Ozempic 175 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,960 success that isn't its actual functionality, but in fact it's, 176 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,520 you know, meeting out doses? In their defense, that's, you 177 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,680 know, the business, the strategy part is the part of the part 178 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:53,960 this podcast probably understands better, right? 179 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,600 I'm they were also talking about, you know, types of 180 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,120 treatments and stuff. And some of that honestly goes 181 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,040 over my head. So I'm going to come to their 182 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,320 defense a little and say there was plenty of talk of, you know, 183 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,000 pathways and approaches to treatment stuff that pour me 184 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,600 without an MD can't distill for you here. 185 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,480 More MD's than a typical VC conference sounds. 186 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:15,040 Oh. My God. 187 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,640 Oh, tons of people. Lots of professors you know. 188 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,400 Mini former but definitely well credentialed and educated Crown. 189 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,280 So, so, so if, if, if biotech is in this kind of inexorable 190 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,440 downturn, fintech has actually been looking really strong in 191 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,440 the last year, really strong a couple of years ago. 192 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,800 Really strong. Is a that's too. 193 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:36,560 Too much. Relatively strong. 194 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,680 We have, we have an event next week, but even us, we're not 195 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:43,560 going to say really strong, but I think it's coming up from a 196 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:46,440 lot it. Is fintech is back baby but. 197 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:49,200 It's an aspirational marketing copy. 198 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,320 What is the the journalist Madeline that digging into this 199 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:57,040 as the journalist How back baby is fintech? 200 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,920 It's mixed. I would say the backness of 201 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:04,120 fintech is decidedly mixed. On the one hand, you have E 202 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:07,640 Toro, the stock and crypto trading platform going public 203 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,320 this week, which you know, end of IPO drought. 204 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,680 In a sense, Chime filed its S 1, so two major fintech 205 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,880 powerhouses, Deca corns like testing the public market. 206 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,440 That's really exciting. One week out from our fintech 207 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,880 conference, we didn't plan that. We promised we didn't collude, 208 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,840 but we did. Talk about the influence. 209 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,200 I'd love people to believe that we could plan that. 210 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:29,680 Wait, yeah, record. Scratch. 211 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:32,280 Scratch that, it was all according to plan. 212 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,600 So things are looking up. Investors that I spoke to were 213 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,880 seeing those as bull signals. That being said, interest rates 214 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,640 are still pretty high. So any company that's in the 215 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,480 lending space is not doing too hot right now and is not really 216 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,880 predicted to come back. And we're not going to be really 217 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,240 hitting that sort of, you know, 2021 boom anytime soon. 218 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,480 I mean, things pretty much fell off as soon as interest rates 219 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,920 ticked up in 2022 for a lot of these companies. 220 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,120 And that's going to stay pretty low. 221 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,320 And the excitement has really come around both two key areas 222 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,280 like Chime style consumer plays and banking companies that are 223 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,240 more like neo banks that provide financial services maybe in 224 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:14,240 emerging markets or for mobile first customers or I would say 225 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,240 stable coins and facilitate payments and card payments that 226 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,200 can be back to your stable coin wallet. 227 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,360 So that's right. Bridge deal, obviously last year 228 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:28,040 was a big exit for the space. So we've got neo banks, you've 229 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,240 got stable coins. I would add the stick AI on it. 230 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,760 I mean, but obviously much more sincerely, I'm excited to have 231 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:40,040 Rogo there who's reinventing the sort of banking analysts with 232 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,120 generative AI. So you have sort of we're going 233 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,560 to have, you know, they're a bunch of companies that are 234 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:49,120 looking at old guard sectors and saying how do we rethink it now 235 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,160 that we have the power of foundation models. 236 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,400 Now a fourth sort of category represented by Gusto is just 237 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,120 sort of the non fintech fintech, right? 238 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,960 I mean it's a payroll company, but you have these sort of big 239 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,600 companies that sort of do a lot of business in money paying 240 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,880 people and and other things, but offer sort of a broader range of 241 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,040 services that I think people are still pretty excited about. 242 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,960 Investors have been telling me that this space of, you know, 243 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,480 accounts receivable, something that you never think would be 244 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,400 like a sexy space, is doing incredibly well. 245 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,680 And there's lots of early stage fintech companies that are using 246 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,440 AI agents to automate a good deal of this. 247 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,000 It's work help pump out things similar to kind of the legal 248 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,880 tech boom that we saw a few months ago too. 249 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,240 Like just any kind of service, business can be automated and 250 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,480 agentified, and people are hype about that. 251 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,960 A sub category of our AI story is the take a services business, 252 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,280 put AI on it and like make make an AI startup out of it. 253 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,000 Yeah. I'm always intrigued in the 254 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,680 fintech space of the targets that a lot of these startups 255 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:50,320 have. You know, so like for the, you 256 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,800 know, accounts receivable, it's basically a bunch of investors 257 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,440 and executives who are like, it's time we took down ADPA 258 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,960 company that you otherwise don't think about. 259 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,080 You know, these poor guys just like in Arizona that own like 260 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,680 whatever 80% of the accounts receivable market. 261 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,840 I guess it's like prime for the taking. 262 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,280 Like that's who like a gusto was going after, right? 263 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:11,520 Right. Oh my God. 264 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,440 Well, you know, all the startup reporters, myself included, 265 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,520 wanted to ripling versus Gusto, you know, or, you know, the 266 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,440 payroll versus payroll. But but yeah, ADP looms so 267 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,440 large. Most companies just use this 268 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,120 sort of super old fashioned tech that there's a lot of 269 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,320 opportunity. There's plenty of room for these 270 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,320 startups to kind of coexist right now because the incumbents 271 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,760 are so large and unchanged. Over the last 40 years, there's 272 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,440 been a lot of opportunity and also, you know, some companies 273 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,400 are targeting doing the the leap to mobile, but for payments. 274 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:49,120 So for mobile banking and also, you know, building stable coin 275 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,200 wallets and cards. I mean, we can get into stable 276 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,000 coins. Let's let's that's a whole other 277 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,920 sector people are excited about. But you know, kind of doing the 278 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,800 skipping to mobile connection story where people didn't have 279 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,680 landlines, but they went straight to cell phone, right in 280 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:03,160 the mobile era, like that's happening with banking too, 281 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,160 because all of these, you know, digital only rails are setting 282 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:06,960 up payment. Systems. 283 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,760 Yeah, yeah, you're, we can tell you're deep in fintech. 284 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,680 You're like, Oh, yeah, I'm excited about the mobile first 285 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:16,360 banking, the stable coin thing. You know, we we talked about, 286 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,040 you know, the IPOs, which I think are good for the timing of 287 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,600 this event. The other thing is there's 288 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,920 legislation working its way through Congress trying to 289 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,640 formalize how we treat stable coins in the United States, 290 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,320 right? Or Madeline, what's, what's the 291 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,160 latest on that? Yes, that would be the Genius 292 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,440 Act which is making its way through the Senate so. 293 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,320 What does genius stand for? They're always good at coming up 294 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,000 with those reverse engineered backronym names. 295 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:44,960 What do you do? You know it. 296 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,280 Guiding and establishing national innovation for US 297 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,320 stable coins. That's the one I'm talking 298 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,480 about. Guiding and establishing 299 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,160 national innovation for US stable coins. 300 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:55,600 So that's that's the backronym for it. 301 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,800 So basically the Genius Act is currently in the Senate and it's 302 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,040 basically exists to establish federal safeguards that protect 303 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,960 stable coin holders, kind of like the FDIC insurance of 304 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,160 stable coins. So that and the rails can get 305 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,720 more standardized within our existing financial system. 306 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,680 So it basically further legitimizes and integrates 307 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,400 stable coins into our system. They're already legal. 308 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,120 It's just, you know, making them a little bit more stable for 309 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,760 stable if you will, for trading and you know, being an asset 310 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,480 that people can hold and exist within the rails of our 311 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,040 financial system that's regulated. 312 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,360 And stable coins are the crypto for people who don't like 313 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,200 crypto, right? I mean, it's like you don't 314 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,360 need. To use their pitch. 315 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,200 Right. It's like it's not about the 316 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:38,600 speculation. We're not trying to get 317 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,640 consumers to buy random coins. It's like move money easily cut 318 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,240 out fees. For sure. 319 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,800 And and it's also key distinction for staple coins is 320 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,360 that they are tied to a Fiat currency. 321 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,040 Most of the ones that we're hearing about with this act are 322 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,480 tied to the US dollar, but they can be back to other currencies 323 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,800 too. So, so that's supposed to add 324 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,000 sort of a another level of stabilizing for them. 325 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,960 Of course, with the tariffs and how monetary markets are doing 326 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:12,240 right now, it's not looking as stable, but that's, you know, 327 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,240 not something that the boosters are really advertising front and 328 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:15,920 center right now. I'm. 329 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,520 Probably the crypto dullard on this, this podcast, I know the 330 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,320 least of three of us. Like my understanding, like you 331 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,560 mentioned of the stable coins is that they're pegged to a Fiat 332 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,160 currency and it provides like a level of or it's a, it's a hedge 333 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,160 against the volatility of crypto. 334 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,000 And we're at a time now, I mean, I guess things have stabilized a 335 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,040 bit, but like the dollar has never been more in flux. 336 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,360 Like the tariffs have been a disaster for the value of the US 337 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,040 dollar. I mean, I guess they're happy to 338 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,760 get this bill passed regardless, but like, it's not exactly like 339 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,320 the strongest case that like pegging something to the US 340 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:54,320 dollar suddenly makes crypto like a more reliable investment. 341 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,280 Yeah. Like talk about timing for this 342 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,000 bill. It's really, you know, coming in 343 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,360 at this moment of great financial uncertainty. 344 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,000 Despite the sort of fluctuation with the dollar, it does seem 345 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:10,280 like a lot of both startups and existing mainstream financial 346 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,160 institutions and banks are jumping into the staple coin 347 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,319 space when it comes to issuing cards that can link to staple 348 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:18,960 coin accounts for payments, especially overseas. 349 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,400 So MasterCard made an agreement this week with Moon Pay to 350 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,359 launch staple coin cards for customers. 351 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,560 Obviously there's Bridge and Stripe have this service with 352 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,320 Visa as their partner there, and then Ramp is also doing this as 353 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,160 well, which was announced in the last couple weeks. 354 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,840 So everyone's going full steam ahead on stable coins, dollar 355 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,680 insecurity be damned. That's what people voted for. 356 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,360 That's what that's what. This was the vote. 357 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,960 The stable coin coalition was strong and mighty. 358 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,840 I voted for a wild fluctuation in the dollar and also 359 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,320 stablecoin act. A lot of Silicon Valley's 360 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,120 support for Trump, I do think, was rooted somewhat in crypto 361 00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:00,120 support. And so the Silicon Valley crowd 362 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,960 throwing their money at Trump in it, this is sort of what they 363 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,000 voted for. Oh yeah, I wasn't joking. 364 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,360 I was not joking. Listen, if you're excited to 365 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:10,680 understand what's going on in fintech right now, there's one 366 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,680 place you should be breaking the bank on Tuesday. 367 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,680 If you go to breakingthebanksummit.com, you 368 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,200 can apply for a ticket will be pretty last minute, but if 369 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,920 you're a founder, we will try to get you there. 370 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,120 Or you can e-mail This is the real. 371 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:28,680 If you're listening now, I'll say we're small enough podcasts. 372 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,440 I can say an e-mail address on air. 373 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:38,560 E-mail rileyriley@newcomer.co and he's the person to beg for a 374 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,200 ticket if you're going to try and sneak your way in on 375 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,080 Tuesday. Well, we will be burning a bank 376 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,560 in effigy at the end of breaking the Bank, Burning Man style to 377 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,000 get people reminiscing about. All right. 378 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:52,960 So one thing that we mentioned earlier in the podcast during 379 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,200 Eric's take on the Chatham House Rules biotech, you know, what 380 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,880 have you, was the fact that there's been a loss of a brain 381 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,280 drain, would you call it, or a concern about where the talent 382 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:07,120 within the biotech worlds is going to go in a more combative 383 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,160 immigration environment? And Madeleine, you had a great 384 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,760 piece the other week that talked all about the worries among 385 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,080 startups and the the status of their immigrant workforce. 386 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,480 What did you learn there? Yeah, I mean the crackdown that 387 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,800 sort of happened around the first Trump administration on 388 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,560 immigration did cause a slowdown in the startup and tech 389 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,800 ecosystem around H1B visas, which a lot of tech employees 390 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,080 for bigger tech companies, either the largest startups or 391 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:39,320 public tech companies are on, or O1 and EB1 visas, which are more 392 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,560 common for startup founders and early startup employees to get. 393 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,040 So people, you know, like in the founding team have equity. 394 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,800 That tier of early stage would probably go for an O one or an 395 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,200 EB qualifier. Green card isn't. 396 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,440 The core, the core problem that I took away from your story is 397 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,240 just Trump is scaring the shit out of every immigrant in the 398 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,240 United States. And so if you have any ambiguity 399 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,920 about your immigration status, you're not going to go home to 400 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,680 India for your cousin's wedding. You're going to stay here. 401 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,520 You're not going to go, you know, and and you're sort of 402 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:11,800 worried. And if you have a choice 403 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,960 between. Going to work for, I don't know, 404 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,240 Klarna in Europe or in the United States. 405 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,600 You're going to go in Europe because it's like they seem to 406 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,320 want you more. There are a lot of rules and 407 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,440 there will be changes, but a lot of it is even for the people who 408 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,960 are legitimately here, they don't know if you know the rules 409 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,560 are going to change. If we're seeing students, you 410 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,520 know, get hassled for their for op eds that they're writing and. 411 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,040 It's kind of like an ugly resurfacing of that fight that 412 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,280 played out at the end of last year when, you know, Sri 413 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,480 Ramakrishnan was being called out by, you know, some of the 414 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,120 more intense MAGA types claiming that someone who looks like him, 415 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:53,480 AKA, you know, not white, shouldn't be the face of, you 416 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,880 know, the MAGA right policy. And you have this huge fight 417 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,920 between tech and you know, you know, the MAGA hardcore, which 418 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,440 it seemed like it was resolved when Trump kind of came out in. 419 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,600 The white nationalist wing of the Magas. 420 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:09,040 Right. Well, I was going to say that 421 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,960 the more openly racist part of the coalition, and that's more 422 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,680 extreme, is not a fan of this and it's very at odds with the 423 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,880 tech community's support of the current administration. 424 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,000 I would say to your point, Eric, there's been a slowdown in 425 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,440 visas, but the real shift is cultural and how people feel 426 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,040 about practicing their business or, you know, taking the risks 427 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,480 of hiring a new employee that's also an immigrant. 428 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,720 They may not want to do it because of 1. 429 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,880 The paperwork getting complicated and the risk of 430 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,360 their employee, you know, getting stuck somewhere or 431 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:43,080 deported. We saw this happen with an open 432 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,640 AI researcher who was pretty senior within the company, just 433 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,880 had her visa denied. And the administration said, you 434 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,760 know, it was for paperwork irregularities, but she had to 435 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,080 leave the country and is working remotely out of Vancouver. 436 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,080 And obviously, they're accommodating her right now. 437 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,360 But if this happens in mass, it has a chilling effect for any 438 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:04,680 talent that wants to come here. I mean, when Vinod Khosla 439 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,760 actually shared the story on X, which was, you know, great, 440 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,360 great to get that reach out there. 441 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:12,760 But, you know, and it kind of fit into his message and what 442 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,800 he's been in support of making immigration easier for startup 443 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,000 founders and employees. But to his point, you know, 444 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,160 scaring qualified immigrants away is not what we need in our 445 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,680 technology race with China. If that's really important for 446 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,480 you, an American minimism, a lot of you know, to this point here, 447 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,600 biotech point earlier, a lot of qualified researchers come to do 448 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,680 this work from overseas. It's and they're choosing to be 449 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,440 here, but. I mean, so much of the MAGA, the 450 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,120 MAGA movement is help Americans at the expense of everyone else, 451 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,680 right? And, and I don't even think 452 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,040 that's a hostile way of putting it. 453 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,280 It's like we're not trying to do USAID, we're trying to help help 454 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,400 Americans. And so I think a lot of them 455 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:56,040 sincerely don't want, you know, the talented, the top engineer 456 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,720 in sort of Bangalore to come here. 457 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,800 Obviously, I don't know, I, I feel the opposite and, and most 458 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,920 of Silicon Valley does that. The whole engine of Silicon 459 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,280 Valley and why American exceptionalism works is that 460 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,360 America has a very expansionist identity and you can join it if 461 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:17,800 you're hungry and ambitious. And that's the way we stay on 462 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,360 top. So I think it's good for 463 00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:23,040 business and I think it's a moral good and certainly a 464 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,000 theme. We'll, we'll keep watching and 465 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,360 hopefully the situation doesn't get any worse, but I suspect 466 00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:30,560 that it will. Look, Eric, on that note of, of 467 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,040 optimism, you know, I, I really have nothing more to add. 468 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,400 I'll only bring the mood down. So I'm I'm glad we're able to, 469 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,760 to go through all that stuff and see everyone back here next 470 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:40,000 week.