Welcome. So what is Eric?
Hey, I'll see good. This is I feel like the only
configuration of host we haven't done any when Tom had a very
loose episode. 01 am Like got out for loose episode while I
was on vacation while ago and then Tom and I have done some
episodes and obviously the three of us and now we have we have
our episode together. Yeah finally.
Well this is great because I think that we are the like when
the three of us are together. We're obviously the two who are
most antagonistic toward one another, which is also, totally.
And representative of her actual relationship because of the
three of us like you. And I probably, See the world
far more awesome. Yeah, I don't normally mom real
world. It's us bullying.
Tom it's like Tom. Why, like why haven't you set up
your life to like maximize for hallucinogenic experiences?
But on this show I guess I end up playing the tech Optimist in
your the yeah. I was gonna say I don't think
I'm a pessimist actually. I just feel like you're not.
You're not like taking the marching orders from what text
talking about. So it's sort of your more, like,
independent of it. Yeah.
I'm Kind of like I'm kind of like a screening function for
the podcast like if it's actually made it to my
Consciousness it means that the whole world is actually heard of
it and it hasn't it just hasn't broken through.
He's like, oh our people, you know, trying to arrest someone
over. This is the justice department
worried about it. That's what and thankfully this
week you've been thankfully, we're going to talk about you.
Tom, had a great story on, go puff, that went sort.
Many Tech viral, he reported that go puff workers were
ordering Groceries on instacart to fill the gaps.
So it's, you know, tech companies, cannibalizing other
tech companies. But when I think so much about
that story is that was so, it was like the classic startup
story, right? And everybody played their role.
So startup has to cut some corners and hide the fact that
it's not quite ready. For Primetime startup gets
caught by a tech reporter startups.
Sort of like luminary startup figures, I guess it's hard to
put it all respond with, this is why the media is so mean what a
meal, Michael somebody teased him like, oh, like you're not an
expert at and you know, setting tons of money on fire.
For upside down, I didn't like it but it was I did chuckle
though. I mean, you know, they're there.
I mean, There could be a logic to go puff using in Sakura.
I mean, delivering a good customer experience is is the
most important. I mean, it's just it's been
amazing how much money investors are willing to let these
companies lose to get sort of the flywheel.
I mean there's always that argument which is you have to
get people to use this product as soon as possible.
And if the only way to deliver the kind of experience you're
promising is to order things from insta conquer.
Then so be it like will catch up and sometimes companies Please
do catch up right, sometimes it out.
Well do you want to set up where you've actually what oh did you
have another even the to the to my to my least favorite and most
favorite tech story. So I need to I need to wait at
least favorite being the hack of the Wall Street Journal, no
bueno, very much, very much caused, Great anxiety, amongst
all reporters who've ever written anything about China,
terrible and then most favored the Bitcoin money laundering
couple. Which includes one half of a
couple. Being a self-described comedic
rapper, I don't know Eric. Wait, which one did you want?
I think we should talk about the more fun one first and then the
true diehards. Can listen to your takes on
media vulnerability which is also interesting but that's
really just for report that's her first.
You know, I realize that in why you never could have sources
name and your Google doc. Right.
So what was so great is um, When the when the press release hit
everyone's inbox, right? We all get this, like the
justice department. We making a big announcement
today and it was on crypto and I think that they're sort of a
it's hard to get excited over a crypto announcement from the
justice department because they basically are very similar at
this point. Something bad happened.
Often on the dark web and the Justice Department's able to use
the blockchain to trace the money back to either a person
who perpetrated the crime or personally benefited from it
because even though, especially Bitcoin, but cryptocurrencies
once marketed, as if you use this, you will evade governments
and nobody will find you the very Margie behind the
blockchain, which is hey, hey, hey Ledger, a permanent Ledger
is something that indeed law. Enforcement has figured out how
to use to trace to trace money. Great, the propaganda around
Bitcoin is changed 100% used. Absolutely.
Oh, it's Anonymous and now it's like, oh well there's this nice
record, so it's harder to commit crime.
It's it's like ours that the same people who were spinning
Bitcoin. Before I it does feel yeah, an
overworked used word but a little gas lit.
Just what what is the benefit in terms of secrecy?
Has it extreme sort of transparency or yeah?
Anyway anyway and so we have seen several justice department
announcements around cryptocurrencies.
I was like, okay well this will be this will be fine.
But instead, what the justice department delivered to us was
the most amazing. The most amazing defendants.
It's found in a while. It's a married couple in
Manhattan who were arrested last week for allegedly, trying to
launder billions of dollars worth of bitcoin that were
stolen during this, like, 3.6 billion my or?
No. It's more than that was the
recovery. I think they were trying to move
more than 4 billion. But when so this goes back to a
big hack in 2016 in the exchange was called bitfenix and at the
time hackers broke into this Exchange Believe it's based in
Hong Kong and they stole 72 million dollars in Bitcoin from
this exchange. This is 2016.
So it was still considered like a lot of money and in the
Bitcoin world but what it really did is it made people nervous
about whether or not these exchanges which generally aren't
regulated and nobody really has a transparent few exchange
especially at that time we're transparent about their security
systems. Whether or not Bitcoin could
kind of take off as a widely traded currency, if the
exchanges themselves were so vulnerable hackers, could just
go in and take them part of what I love about.
It is 70 million, some gets stolen, but then because it's so
hard to move the Bitcoin without getting caught it like grows to
be worth is like right. So it's like nothing better than
just like being forced to hold an investment that ends up being
super Savvy. You'd imagine if they Of, they
would have, you know, cashed out on this 70 70 million, right?
And said they're sitting on like billions of dollars and it's all
great. It's great for the justice
department Museum. They had.
This was like the biggest recovery everything, right?
Exactly. They were like, this is the
biggest asset recovery at 3 plus billion dollars, so they had
line again for the justice department.
It was a lot more exciting than if they'd recovered mmm 65
million. Do you need to get a report?
Maybe they were just sitting on this to try and get the maximum
bitcoin price. Yeah.
At the best recovery headline. And they saw the markets turn
there like shit, we need to move on this.
We gotta do it now. Yeah, yeah.
Well I mean they were charged by criminal complaint rather than
indictment which is a very nerdy thing to even make a distinction
about. But when you're charged by
criminal complaint, it means that the justice department
prosecutors did think to themselves.
We do not want to for some reason, we don't want to take
the time to put together a presentation for the grand jury,
and wait for the grand jury to decide.
We're going to go straight to a judge and we're going to charge
these people by criminal complaint.
They still have to obtain a formal indictment within.
I forgot the number of days but oftentimes when you see that one
of the reasons why the just want and there are several.
But one reason that just sperm I do that is because they fear
that the people they want to arrest our flight risks.
Now I don't think anybody has ever said to me.
Another reason for charging by criminal, complaint is fear that
the crypto currency Market will continue to plunge.
But I really like that as a possibility.
They'd also, as part of the investigation had to move the
Bitcoin basically into their own wallet, right?
So that could have created some sort of desire to move forward
with. These are a lot of questions.
They so why why it moved. So they do they they charge this
couple by criminal complaint last Tuesday and then they
arrest them. And what comes out is not just
that, this is a couple who was trying Launder billions of
dollars worth of bitcoin basically by creating, you know,
lots of different wallets at lots of different exchanges, but
one, they are not very good at it and to that they, as a couple
are just this extraordinary pair.
It's a man named Leo Lichtenstein and his wife,
Heather Morgan and Heather Morgan and Ilya Lichtenstein.
They are trying to, you know, Move just like 19,000 bit.
Crabber and Forbes contributor but not just a contributor.
She is a Forbes contributor who wrote about how not to get
scammed. What's your rap name?
I believe. It's Razzle Khan.
We're certainly going to clip that yeah.
Yeah. They'll have to find a Raza Khan
clip. Silver on my fingers and boots
on my feet. Always be a girl.
Not a goddamn, a message at the beep.
I mean, there's so many things that are really great about her.
He did y combinator. Yeah.
I mean, brick great. I feel like I'm her but you can
tell from the criminal complaint which is really detailed and
actually really interesting if you want to understand how the
government can do things like Trace cryptocurrencies, they
moved from ball to ball it. You can tell that they've run
into problems, the world has changed as 2016.
So some of the Bitcoins that are moving to different exchanges,
the exchanges now want to comply with With International banking
regulations, there's a know, your customer rule.
So some of the exchanges ask them to please provide
identification because they want to make sure that the person who
opens the account is the person that the person says they are
and this couple is unable to do that.
So for example at that exchange their funds are completely
Frozen and they can't do anything with them and also it's
a flag to The Exchange and of course that point you can
imagine that the exchange would do something like contact law
enforcement. And say, we have an account and
they cannot verify their identity.
And so the couple kind of runs into trouble at several terms as
they try to launder these Bitcoins and at some way they
start buying things like NF teas, with the Bitcoin, they
start buying things like gold and then when one of my favorite
moves, they just convert the money to a 500 dollar.
Walmart gift card home. They're just, they're just
classic likely, they're not drink them off, is very skilled.
I mean, I was Your colleagues had a piece that was I think
these they were envisioned as sort of these amazing.
Whoever whoever got this Bitcoin was sort of some sort of super
hacker or something and they seem like total bumbler sort of
huckster type people and everybody's trying to make sense
of it. Well, that was a thing.
Like once the government was able to get, you know, process
to do things like get into lichtenstein's online.
Accounts right, his Anatomy is online Financial accounts, but
like, basically getting to like his iCloud or, you know,
whatever files information gets stored.
They found that he was like extremely well-organized, right?
He kept like a file called, like passport ideas and he kept a
file called, you know, like passwords.
So he, he was not only well organized, but he labeled
everything really well, so that when the government did start
rifling through, you know, basically his online In life in
his video a file. I criminal activity.
Yeah well I think my favorite my favorite was that when they then
went into the couple's home into their apartment, they found a
bag that was labeled burner phones which he filled.
I have one of those, you know and it doesn't every regular
American just have a bag of burner phones and you have to
label the bag burner phone. So it doesn't you don't confuse
it with like you're, you're a regular home for Activity?
Only or whatever. No, no accusations of drugs that
I'm aware wasn't there. Are there so many bizarre
aspects. This, I mean the wife wanted to
go back to the apartment. Allegedly for her cat.
Do you know what I'm talking about here?
Yeah, I mean yeah, so they have I think there's a photo of her
with the cat to but like, yes. So again there these are not
like I would not say that they were, they were prepared a
criminal mastermind first sir, what to do, when the government
starts investigating you, even though she He had written this
article for first like how not to get scammed in the crypto
world, but yes. So like they wanting to say go
back home to your apartment for your cat.
Would be something that I think I'm a hardened criminal would
advise against, but then they let her go back, right?
Yeah, yeah. Well, this is sort of
interesting to like they're fighting, they, they were
released on bail and the bail is like, extraordinarily high as
you can imagine. And I Believe that for
Liechtenstein the bill also includes like his parents house
and they're and they're basically arguing that that is
excessive given the flight risk that they pose.
Clearly, the government doesn't think so, and the courts don't
think so. But I think they're trying to
make an argument. They're really not that
dangerous and they probably couldn't get away if they wanted
to. And while I can understand why
the government be very invested in having this, this extreme
Bail. I can also see an argument being
made by their online. Existence, they're not
sophisticated. She goes back to get the cat and
she like tries to mess with her phone and they think to like
lock it or something. Right?
Right. Exactly, which would be
extraordinarily foolish. I wouldn't say that it shows
that it necessarily 100% shows intent, like men's Rhea that.
Russ, I'm guilt there but it's certainly not.
It's certainly not the ACT typical I'm an innocent person
who just wants to see her cat right now.
A super bizarre. Point of this is just they
weren't charged or I don't even know if charges are right word,
given how this this was laid out.
But the hack itself we don't know who did the actual have
exactly. And like the government was very
clear and very careful, I think to not accuse them of hacking
into B, find X and they have also made clear through the core
Papers that this larger investigation is ongoing.
And so, one thing that they will probably ask Razzle Khan and
Lichtenstein is how they came into possession of these of the
Bitcoins because the bit coins that were stolen from defined X
were eventually moved into a wallet under election signs
control now. So, they're going to want to
know how that happened and whether or not they had
Outreach. We know, hackers reached out to
them or what people, they already knew, they're going to
try to pressure them to give. Information.
And they're going to use this criminal complaint, which will
help you to eventually become an environment.
They're going to use the criminal charges against them,
to apply pressure to see. If they if they have the
information, the government wants about the hawk and if
they'll flip but it doesn't is there much of a signal.
Whether the sort of hunch here is that it was another person or
that. It was probably them, but they
just want more evidence. Or is there any sort of Signal
one way or the other, like the government hasn't really signals
one way or another. But I mean given, I don't know.
I mean like, do you think that the person behind the song
getting high in a cemetery, who's rapping?
I love me some grave. Grass, is the kind of criminal
mastermind, that would be able. Maybe they're like, great, you
know. They're, it's like, we need to
leave a trail of just stupidity behind us, you know, like how
hard is it? This is the 12 Dimension, is
this, what I like? I mean it's you know, I this is
so random but I was listening to I don't know, Bo Burnham clip or
something. He's talking about you know,
eighth grade the movie made and he's Tashi I guess is wonderful
through. Yes, so hard for me to watch, it
was too real estate. But you know, he's talking about
the ideas, you know, the middle school or whatever, you know,
puts out the Instagram, which makes her seem very cool.
But then he's watching, you know, the real middle school or
in the mall who seem super abilities and only catches the
sort of brief. If second of coolness that she
can muster, you know, you, so I I don't even need to go down
this path to say, social media doesn't represent reality and
you could create breadcrumbs to make yourself look like a total
lunatic. I don't know.
I think it's more likely that they are sort of weird quirky
characters, but that doesn't sort of mean that.
I mean, he one of them couldn't be sort of a Savvy hacker.
I'll take that under consideration.
I think. One of the things that people
were surprised by is that they were involved, that they were
accused of this kind of crime because their online personas
are so kind of like, Goofy and hilarious.
Right? Sort of like, is razznik on
Billy a criminal mastermind. That doesn't, that doesn't seem
to make sense. What is I mean, the justice
department, sort of posture towards crypto right now?
I mean, you know, Katie Han who has her new fund, you know,
comes out of Of the justice department, obviously, you know,
has been out for a while. Was it Andreessen Horowitz?
Now it's their biggest bus. I mean, our is a sort of huge
amount of their resources, spent on crypto at the moment or
what's, what sort of your read on law enforcement energy around
this stuff? I think they take it very
seriously and part because cryptocurrency has for so long,
it has been used as the financing arm of all sorts of
legal activity, right? So From, you know, weapons
dealing sanctions of Asia, and human trafficking.
Drug trafficking that's been financed by more by
cryptocurrency. So the Justice Department's
always going to be very interested in them in the
financial flows support illegal activity and one thing about a
bust like this. That's so interesting aside from
the from this couple is that it sends yet another signal and
this it's the signal, they're trying to send over and over.
Which is you used to think that this was a way to commit crime
because of the anonymity, but because of the permanence of The
Ledger, we will trace it and we will figure out who you are
eventually, it will take us a while, but we will figure out
the players in this chain and we will determine who owned what,
when, in some ways they're helping the crypto.
Yes, because that's why someone like Katie hon can feel
comfortable investing. In this world basically when
she, you know, she's making the investment she's she wants to be
ahead of where regulation is because once both law
enforcement and regulation really have like a firm role
that they're playing in the crypto Market, it will basically
say we have legitimized, this Market money is going to start
flowing through it even more, bigger businesses Fortune, 100
companies global companies can start using this market.
And if you were an early either, like the infrastructure, The
wallets. And the exchanges if you were in
early around the products that are created solely from this
world like an FTS, you could make a lot of money.
But you do need that like layer of legitimacy because it's
really hard for something that's only considered to be for
criminal, use to grow. And it's sort of a funny
contradiction of course of like the crypto world where they want
it to be totally contract-based. But then it seems like whenever
there is A pickle at the at the core.
It is a human thing where they want sort of the same as the
legal. You know, the same as sort of
contracts in the regular world where you're the intended, sort
of structure of the agreement matters, more than the letter of
the agreement. You just sort of touched on this
like, very essential tension, in, in technology, right?
That, you know, the more we want things to be more Tech and less
human. We keep getting to this problem
that they Center is always human.
I was literally walking around my neighborhood in Brooklyn and
there were. So there was a real world.
Illustration of board ape somewhere like someone was
drawing nft art in New York so it is Bridge the digital real
world divided a couple of things have happened.
I mean board a, you know, is sort of, one of the big nft
projects with crypto Punk's, you know, there.
I think like Thousands of these different eight.
Billis trations, people can buy the nft S they're worth tons of
money. So but they've been in the news
for a couple of reasons. I mean, first of all, BuzzFeed
Katie new topless, you know, dug up the names of the founders of
board ape this month, just as Andreessen, Horowitz was sort of
working an investment that valued the company behind bore,
Dave said five billion Dollars and it was sort of, I mean, that
was, you know, the classic sort of crypto versus the media
fight. I don't think everyone in crypto
is sort of against them being identified but there was, you
know, there's sort of an appeal of anonymity in sort of crypto
world and, and she's sort of exposed their names.
So there was some debate around that and then sort of at the
same time, there's this interesting element that, you
know, board Apes allows People who own them to actually own the
intellectual property of the ape, which means that they can,
you know, brand their marijuana company with them.
And so then they're all these interesting questions of just
how you maintain a brand if everybody who has one can be
sort of a Shameless opportunist with it and what what that means
and then yeah. So there's just I mean, I do
we're in this amazing world where I do think Speak to me.
And if T's are just wear a ton of the tech energy is like a lot
of interesting. I mean, lifts old CFO went to
open sea. I think open.
See, you know, which raised a thirteen billion dollar
valuation, you know? It is definitely sort of the Hub
of some tech intellectual energy at the moment.
I don't know what stands out to you.
Well, I think it's interesting, just that anonymity was, was
considered cool. Looks like a good direction for
Tech to go in. I think that with social media
Tech was fueling, such a push away from privacy and away from
doing things because you like to do them, everything was like an
exhibition and by being anonymous what was it?
Greg Solano and Wiley era. Now I don't know how to say his
last name by being anonymous. They were basically able to feel
Trends create trends. Create cool and do it and leave
all of the people who like glommed onto it, like they just
like they were like, we will be cool if we will create something
and anybody who does want to do that kind of Shameless
self-promotion and anybody who wants to use the product, we've
created in that way. They just look way less cool.
Like, they just looked kind of lame but like, it's okay.
I like that impulse, really I'm definitely on the, I don't know,
real names are so valuable for now.
Well, let me first. We saw there is one crypto
project. I'm blanking on the name who had
it turned out. One of their Founders had
founded, sort of another crypto project.
That was like, super scammy. So there is an element that it's
just helpful. That's not, that's not the case
I think with board Apes. But, but there is just this
question, you know, if people are buying into something, don't
they have a right sort of understand the background of the
creators. And I mean, these if you're
creating an N of t, you're basically selling people that
you're going to keep creating a bunch of energy around the
project by building more of a community or doing interesting
stuff. Even though you're making money
basically upfront because these things spike in value and then
you might not have as much incentive to keep it going.
So it feels almost more important than anything to know.
What sort of person you're, you know, you're aligning your
financial interests with I guess.
But I guess that's not a very fun answer.
Yeah. I mean I guess it would like
that idea like creating continuing to create energy
around something. I just like the idea that that
can be driven in an anonymous way rather than a Like I think
what we've become used to on Instagram is like the people you
follow, who are celebrities being like continue to follow me
as I continue to draw you in with like my celebrity life and
the people who we follow, who are friends also being like,
here's the best of my life. I mean, it's just like so
there's something that's become like and I don't know how to
qualify this because I'm not a cultural critic, but it has that
same feel of Of for lack of a better word to genus of like
that same Vibe of like girlboss chuukese.
Now the Washington Post Taylor, the Roses jump ship your
unfortunately. I think not not allowed to use
that word but I mean like when somebody does anything it just
makes you like so uncomfortable. Because it's so uncool and I
just have to like look away. If to pretend it's not
happening. You think board apes are cool.
Is that what you're saying? I just want to I think that in
part by being anonymous and creating Buzz around just this
idea of something that's absurd. Yeah, like they basically
managed to get people who do have influence to to buy in,
right? You know what I mean?
Like, the fact that, I mean, what I liked about Katie story,
as she tells you up front that they have been successful
because these essentially like nonsense and of tease you have
Two celebrities of varying degrees willing to drop a half
million dollars just to be a part of it.
Right? Not that I mean what it is is
it's Paris Hilton and I forgot who the other guy is we didn't
Dave Chappelle by one of my I think so.
Oh, it was Jimmy Fallon's. Sorry, Jimmy Fallon.
I think you're famous to, but you know what I mean?
It's like, Jimmy Fallon Paris Hilton between the two of them
spent more than half a million dollars because they wanted not
just to own it and ft. They wanted to own.
Bored ape. Yeah Don her story but Dave
Chappelle purchased for tape I think for three hundred
seventy-one thousand dollars. Yeah I mean it's amazing and I
just I just do think at the root a lot of people participating
are trying to make money and it's like yeah, financial gain.
Absolutely and I think that like part of making money especially
when you're trying to move toward the consumer which is
what this is like Like I don't think that nft is are just like
a an Enterprise only problem. You know, when you're trying to
move toward the consumer, you need to do it by making it cool.
And there was a time like culturally where what was cool
was like direct to Consumer and like, self-improvement and J.
Sickly like anything that looks like a, you know, a twenty
fifteen to twenty probably like 18 or 17 start up around like
consumer stuff. Like This is going to help you.
Optimize is going to help you maximize and help you Rise &
Grind, all this bullshit. And I think that we've gone to a
world that kind of reject that. And so it's not surprising to me
that this more absurdist product is, is more interesting and
cooler, right? Yeah, I hope selfishly just
because I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not a rising grinder are
like I I prefer like Shameless, stupid Financial speculation.
Russian and sort of signaling online to people who are just
like fake fake Grinders, I guess.
Yeah, between those two options, guess like which which group of
people is more likely to produce like the Beastie Boys Sabotage
video, and that's how I feel. And that's how I just judge.
All all all things now. I mean I do think it's cool that
you know artists are making a bunch of money, all of a sudden
because there's this wild speculation.
So So, in terms of a group of people that I'm happy to get
some upside, I think there are questions about how much the
actual artists in the. It does feel like the people who
create the Project's, make more money than the people who
illustrate them. Yes, gas which is unfortunate.
Yeah, and I agree with that but it's just sort of a I mean, I
think we're kind of in a speculative time right now
financially. And so, I don't think that like,
Getting rid of n FTS or refusing to like take their existence
seriously. In any way.
Shape reform will will stop speculation.
Or will change the fact that right now?
A lot of capital is in the hands of very few people and that
those people are not super inclined to do anything that
would create like most productivity and prosperity
people. Well, that's I mean, my favorite
topic and recent horror, I mean, that is sort of the
contradiction of, you know, Andreessen is big on sort of,
it's time to build and sort of investing in, you know, Private
Industry somehow building big infrastructure again.
I mean, well, I mean that's often represented by like the
and arose and SpaceX is of the world.
But then at the same time, it's the firm.
This gauged and just sort of nft games.
I mean, I don't know. We obviously they're big enough
now that they have sort of different, they contain
multitudes. And I said, like, when you think
about that, that problem in some ways what's happening in the
tech world. The tech world is kind of
especially like this startup World, their beneficiaries of
this problem in the American economy but they're not based
because of what their interests are there not like really well
suited to solve it. They're just sort of like
playing at the margins. I mean I think it was the
remembers the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Post.
I had this very good. Good story recently just showing
how the employees of one of the country's largest grocery
chains. They have all reported that
they're homeless, or that they face eviction that they
themselves. Do not have enough money to buy
the groceries they sell. That's the bigger problem that
we have a world in which a large successful company, whose
Executives can make millions of dollars lives and dies.
I'm ensuring that employees, cannot pay rent or live.
With any sort of middle class quality of life.
And in fact, faced homelessness and food insecurity like that
sort of the bigger problem with the American economy and that's
and that sort of like acceptance that that's okay.
Because either help shareholders or for some absurd reason.
But your point is these nf3 buyer that crease, the ecosystem
in which, you know, Capital has now accrued to a tiny number of
people and some of those people like.
So Akan Valley, people they're just not equipped interested in
or in any way like positioned to solve or tackle that problem.
So instead they're just like playing around the margins with
things like nfte. So your point is if you're
nihilistic Ali going to waste your money on stupid consumer
stuff, might as well be basically an acceleration estab
out it and she would on the most like extremely obviously
pointless thing. So that then it becomes very
obvious. To society that you believe in
nothing. And so then Katie better will
say that's good because at least if you are like an empty Hollow
husk, it will be very obvious to everyone and be like and at
least better that than you know I mean it is funny you know, and
as Miami yeah just everybody's in a fucking like Ferrari or is
a, it is a crazy. I mean, to some degree.
Tech is just in be embracing conspicuous consumption in a way
that they weren't really supposed to in San Francisco.
Right. Right.
That's so funny. That's true.
And there's, like, a way in which I feel like, you know, if
we were to compare this decade to the post Spanish, Flu decade,
you know, the our last pandemic, you know, Tech is kind of like
the Gatsby part of that era. A lot of attention is paid to
it. There's a lot of money there and
it looks like a lot of fun, but even in the Roaring Twenties, we
pay an outsize amount of attention to that part of what
was going on in America. And we kind of don't pay as much
attention to this like, really hard, horrible reality that for
the mass of the country that was not like the eff Scott
Fitzgerald portion of America. Let's see, we had the Resurgence
of the KKK. We had like This hatred of
immigrants, we had people incredibly poor poverty-stricken
like zero trust in the government and all sorts of
other extremely troubling phenomenon.
When we think about what that post, pandemic era was like, we
think about like the Roaring 20s.
And I feel like that's kind of the role Tech is playing there
there. We're thinking about, like
they're, you know, Roaring 20s style Behavior, their absurdity,
the fun of it, all the ridiculous.
All you know Paris Hilton and some talk show host whose name I
will never remember. I'm so sorry Jimmy yeah thank
you Jimmy Fallon talking about how I'm a Conan O'Brien person
okay I'm Jimmy Fallon talking about half a million dollars I
just read and we spent on this picture of an ape like that's
what we kind of see and that's the part that we pay a lot of
attention to because it's the glittery Bart and it's sort of
like a bomb over the just the really troubling.
Lying reality that exists for a lot of people.
Wow. And I and that concludes my
time. You make my heart feel too hard
and I don't know, it is yeah, I don't know.
At least the tech people are trying to do interesting things.
I understand that they are fortunate enough to be able to
waste their money on, all right. And opportunity.
I'm like everyone has a role to play Americans, like move less
than I believe ever before. Like there is a certain light.
There's I feel like almost like they're playing their part right
there. Not as much as you this is you
will not believe me, say this. I'm actually not like conferring
a value judgment on. Yes, because I find it hard to
even come up with an idea of how any of these players could
behave differently and they're going to be people who are like,
that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Like they could, they could give up all their money and they
could vote for Bernie Sanders and they could go work in a
homeless shelter and I'm like okay yes they could and yet they
will not. And so like I I given like the
structures in which they re Services, who spends a ton of
money on homelessness, like Isn't it?
I'm just the chassis contact was the challenge.
Like I'm sure it starts like cloud of people with them with,
like, money to like burn on eight pictures, right?
Hey, I'm not talking about San Francisco and to your point like
they're in Florida or there in Texas, having just a great time.
It's good. Great.
Yeah, I'm gonna ideological inflection point.
I don't know. What do you mean?
I just, I It feels like we've passed an insane.
We've you know the body Administration has to bunch of
safety, net measures. But when you say, you're in an
ideological inflection point from what to what just you
personally just to from? Yeah, the most important thing
was social programs who the most important thing being.
Here's my problem. I really like this is and I
might cut all this Like on the one hand, I'm like, you know,
die-hard Democrat, right. I do think like fascism is the
most important thing I think Republicans are like
anti-intellectual. And I have a big problem with
sort of the David Sachs, Peter thiel's of the world who I read
is basically being willing to play with fire in order to get
tax cuts. They're basically willing to
like, say anything do anything to keep government small.
So, it's like this crazy, Republican party.
That is Is just like, you know, a game, it's basically we'll
have a culture War so that the elites can cut taxes.
So the Republican party to me is the most.
It's disgusting on every level. It's disingenuous.
So so I there's nothing is to say that I'm having an
ideological. Like it doesn't mean anything
because I'm sort of like, you know, as Democrat as you could
be. But at the same time, you know,
you go to Europe and it just does.
I don't want like America to become someone like chillax like
and welfare state. Yeah, just sort of everybody
gets like I like the idea that America.
Yeah you gotta hustle and it feels like the idea that there's
a ton of money around the United States and it like feels like
some people aren't like seizing. It feels like culturally
disappointing. I don't think the Republicans
have any sort of answer to that, but I do think sort of what the
Democrats themselves like to talk about which is just like,
you know, Is is sort of lame. So I just, I just don't want the
government to be, like, at the center of my like mine.
Like, I feel like we just spend, I mean, it doesn't feel like
much is going to get done. I'm going to vote for Democrats.
I'm against fascism but it's just, I feel like there's a lot
of complaining without a clear like picture of of what what we
want. I don't know.
Does that make sense? Or it does make sense?
I mean, like first of all, I need to say, I don't I like
Obviously, I don't necessarily see politics in the same way
that you do, which is fine or see, even the party's
necessarily in that way. But I do agree that this idea of
focusing on politics is possibly not the best way to spend one's
energies right now and I wonder if part of the reason you feel
the way you do about politics, still being all so all-consuming
is because you spend a lot of time on Twitter, because if you
are not on Twitter, right? If you were not reading these
things like Massive. I mean, it's not like, I'm in
touch with, you know, 300 million people, right?
But I think that if you're not on Twitter, it is very easy to
have conversations with people about their lives and their
problems, they're having or the or the not the problems, they're
having just the thing they're doing that where politics is
like literally never mentioned at, all right?
And I think that is a fine way to live, but my job obviously is
a mix of Surfing the conversation to the extent.
This and then when I'm at my best you know, doing reporting
and getting outside of the conversation, but there's an
inherent it, you know, I guess I could live in a world of only
sort of off the sort of narrative stories.
But it feels hard to sort of unplug from what sort of is
being shattered is hard. And I think that one thing that
only phrases in a way that won't happen for people won't come for
me. But I do think that one thing
that Trump showed the world was that Is extremely useful as a
for our politicians who want to bypass, who want to bypass
having to get messages out through more traditional means
like, you know, having a reporter right about it or doing
an interview with 60 Minutes that you can just have a direct
relationship with your supporters, I had Twitter.
And so, I think that Twitter became a much more politics
driven platform than it was before 2016.
Like, before 2016, I can remember that Twitter.
Like obviously, there were people talking about politics in
2014 and 2012, you know, the 2012 election was not something.
That was a shoo-in for Obama. I think that there's a lot of
political chatter happening on the platform, but I remember on
Twitter, I could also very happily just jump into groups of
people who are just talking about, like, bands or who were
talking about like life hacks or.
And so, I think that Twitter became political, well, some of
it is just how these social media companies change.
I looked I looked on the internet archive, we would tweet
about stuff like I'm going to this show, you know, I don't
every single guy here and I see this movie, like I wasn't what
he seemed like a conversation. It wasn't like I really ran on
Twitter. It's sort of, like, why are you
talking about, you know, that there are a couple big themes?
And we're sort of all sort of amassing.
I started, I started I can't decide how I mean, I'm not
really tweeting on it. I was just sick of not.
Being able to read Mark injury since tweet.
So I created an account that that I named the name of it is
not here to contradict Mark injuries and the account is p
Mark a fanboy and then it is it is interesting just to like
inhabit sort of the you know, I followed Balaji and all those
people that block me and I mean they're very It's they're still
involved in like their own sort of conversation, you know, it's
just great. It's a different sort of topic
but it feels like it's sort of In The Same Spirit.
Yeah, I remember like this was ages ago, and I think it was
even before I covered the tech industry being involved in a
conversation about Japanese debt, with, with Marc,
Andreessen of all people. And then, a couple of other
folks because I had just I slept Fortune obviously.
I was always interested in debt markets.
That's so nerdy and ridiculous. But whatever, forgot, which
short seller. It was not common but one of the
big shorts had put out in a sort of an interesting.
He was in Texas. I'm going to remember his name
someday, just an interesting thesis on, like, Japanese debt.
And I thought that was like a very fun.
Interesting random conversation on Twitter that I can't like
really We imagined happening today there's just like a niche
conversation that we all in that moment that was interesting and
then it went away and that's what Twitter used to be.
Did you follow the whole word Soul shape?
Rotator thing? No, I saw, oh my God.
Everybody else did their podcasts on this last week but
Marc Andreessen has been really pushing it.
But word cell, you know, it's somewhat a liberal arts sort of
engineer divide, but it's meant to be a B savvier that
basically, the idea is, you know, it on an IQ test.
The biggest one of the most noticeable gaps in smart people
is that there will be people who are really good with sort of
word problem types and others who are good at, literally like
rotating shapes. It's like, if you have this
shape which of these shapes is it?
And so it's become sort of like, you know, the market and reasons
of the world's are shape rotators and we are word cells
and Market had a funny tweet where it was you know, of Of
course, the word cells win at word arguments.
They're spending, you know, all their time, word selling, and
we're out here rotating shapes, you know, but it's become sort
of a, you know, and then, you know, they obviously come up
with like word chat, you know, it's sort of the 4chan is ation
of thinking about culture. I mean, I'm sad that word sell
sounds so much like in cell. Well, that's the point, That's
the Way It Is. Well, the point is that we're
we're sad that we Our cultural, we are you want to be Elites
were smart at words, but we are in an era where shape rotators
run, some of the biggest companies.
And so we in a, in any other sort of hair shape, rotators
always, run the biggest companies.
Well, no, I think the argument is that, you know, politics used
to be sort of the center of because a lot of a lot of
success, you know, was navigating hierarchies or, you
know you'd be the best, it some like big organization that
lasted, I mean, You do successfully because of shape.
But I want to know that on those tests, I always score higher on
shape rotation. It's interesting, the maybe I
miss, maybe I'm in the wrong job.
Yeah, that's funny. I have no idea.
I'm not I know in cell with Eric I'm a robot tying this word so
thing together, my P Mark Twitter account my political
uncertainty. You feel like I just don't think
that sort of dark web Twitter or whatever.
We're calling a intellectual dark web.
I don't feel like they're very honest about their core views
like the aesthetic style of being sort of.
Its I mean the fact that they're all about these memes and that
it's very jokey and that it's often sort of positioned in like
sort of. Yeah, you don't know if they're
being sarcastic or not like Like there's this huge cultural Gap
and how they communicate on Twitter from like a mad Iglesias
where it's like, here's my argument for what I think we
should do. And I do find it very
frustrating that they grow older, that people are referring
to. I just know, there's a whole
range. I mean, because like, that is
such a 90s way to be, I'm going to suck.
I like as I and it's a way that I love him.
Well, what if I like being disingenuous all the time?
What's the whole argument? It's like everyone's the
Garofalo character and the biggest, the biggest concern was
that you'd be a poser, right? That's what I'm totally, which
has no intellectual. Like, we're not be a poser, is
to not be genuine whatsoever about anything.
Right? Which I hate, you know, I want
to like, what is the, what is your argument like, what is?
I feel like they're playing games.
You know? It's they don't have to commit,
even though they're the ones who argue that you should be a
productive actor in society, you know, you should actually do.
Do things when it actually comes to sort of the intellectual
arguments, they're putting out, they want to do it in a way
that's just like fun. Or like, the tank isn't the
wiggle room to be like, whatever, right honored, which
is like, literally how I led my entire Teenage life and right
you 94 right? Just so that's familiar.
It's a familiar way of being. I mean I know not one that I
necessarily criticize. Well, I mean, I think we
obviously cheat my, you know, morphing sort of Ideology has to
do with, you know. Partially you know I'm a small
business owner now but I think also besides that it is that,
you know, as a reporter as a reporter, you can write a story,
that's very critical of something.
And you might actually in your heart of hearts agree with the
actual people that you're sort of credit that the story is sort
of putting a harsh microscope under, but you just believe in
the activity of sort of looking into something and exposing it.
But I do think Now that I have more of a reported column, you
know, there's more I I feel more pressure to just sort of I don't
I can't sort of escape the like core thesis statement that would
say like what do you actually sort of believe, you know,
right? I see what you're saying.
When the justice department arrest to people whether or not
you think what they did was bad or even that big a deal?
You're still writing that the right Randy, write profiles
music, which is like they did do something wrong.
The reason your Eating is because they were arrested even
in your heart of hearts, you're like, whatever, I don't care,
right? I don't even think it's on.
It was gonna get wasted by other people like glad these fun
people who are willing to risk it all, or having a little
Razzle Khan as you deserve that money more than whoever you
know, Ernest early crypto investors.
As you know, she's a rapper. I mean I'm that's not how I feel
about the So couple, but I can, I can totally see that with,
with other things. Like there are white collar
crimes or there are, you know, issues that people might not
care about as reporters. But yet they have to say, the
justice department is blocking, some em, a deal which has some
sort of like, in Firenze of it being bought, in the eyes of the
justice department. But the reporter might actually
not actually care about whether or not this will impact
antitrust laws, were you. You were very To talk about the
Wall Street Journal half because I think clearly from our
messages with each other, you're like, this is very important and
this is society in the world even journalists don't seem to
care about it. So while I was very personal, I
miss your use the platform to tell people why this Matters To
The World is very straightforward.
The Wall Street Journal, writes a story saying we've been hacked
All of the reporters whose Google Docs been March through
by the PRC, had to sit in a meeting and kind of sit with the
fact that the Chinese government had read all of their Google
documents that seem to have any pertinent information around
China. And then there was just the
bigger question of how did this happen, you know, Google came
out and said it was not because our Google Suite was broken
into. And that was very, very
important. Because so many companies,
including the New York Times, use Google, To power our mail
and newcomer Newsroom is powered by the new chemicals, always
equally hard. And that means that our
documents are often stored using the Google office suite.
So, to have an incident where all of these reporters were
hacked was for, I will just say, for some reporters, at the New
York Times, very concerning right?
Let's try not trying to it seemed like it was retribution
for The art, the disputes between the Wall Street Journal,
and, and China, before they kicked, all the reporters out of
the country. But, you know, you can imagine,
if you were reporting on say a chest, Orion Chinese corporate
Espionage and you had interviewed, you know,
government officials, whether they were at the justice
department or the CIA, whether you would interviewed former
officials, who now do business with companies and advise them
or work at places like You know some of the big Aerospace
corporations, you can sort of see how the Chinese government
be interested to know what those folks were telling the media and
who is saying it. So you just again and you never
want to put a name and that Google doc right like never ever
ever. But yeah, so it has just like a
girl it was just a really good reminder.
I think to be incredibly careful just in case there is a Disaster
heck oh yeah like you and Tom and I were texting.
You guys were getting ready to do an episode and I was like I
have to report right now and also scrub all of my account.
Make sure everything's. Yeah.
I was I think, I think it's just
me and like seven other reporters who cared about that
story. Yeah.
But we cared a lot understandably.
Hey, it's just yeah, everything gets hacked someday.
It'll be me and I'll be sad about it, but it's hard to hard
to get upset in the abstract because it feels, I get spam II.
Think I'm getting fished all the time.
I get very strange emails and calls only.
Oh, like life is just ignoring weird inbound.
No, don't click on any. Yeah, I don't know if I've ever
bought Norton Security Suite ever in my life, but I got a lot
of emails saying, my Norton Security Suite is no longer
working and I just want to click on this link to fire back up.
Also, I now get emails every day that say they're from Amazon and
that my account has been frozen, right?
And that my Amazon Prime packages will not be delivered.
But I can see how a person in a moment of panic would read that
and be like, oh, no, well, it's very useful that I have a Macon
Georgia, phone number, but I live.
And I talked to basically no one from Macon Georgia because all
those scammers I think calling me from Georgia, is the Savvy
move, but I'm like nobody calls me from Georgia unless they're
in my contacts already. So I just ignore, you know, all
calls from my home state which ends up being a great, screening
mechanism. There you go, everybody.
Go get him. Making sure that.
No never, alrighty, it was really to speak with you.
Yeah. Hopefully Tom be feeling better.
I think Tom would be curious to see how I do.
I think he'll be Maybe he'll be pleased that we get along.
So work on Sally, goodbye. Goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
Maybe he'll be pleased that we get along.
So work on Sally, goodbye. Goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.