1
00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:13,800
Welcome. 
So what is Eric? 

2
00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,900
Hey, I'll see good. 
This is I feel like the only 

3
00:00:18,900 --> 00:00:25,700
configuration of host we haven't
done any when Tom had a very 

4
00:00:25,700 --> 00:00:33,300
loose episode. 01 am Like got 
out for loose episode while I 

5
00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:38,700
was on vacation while ago and 
then Tom and I have done some 

6
00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:42,200
episodes and obviously the three
of us and now we have we have 

7
00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,800
our episode together. 
Yeah finally. 

8
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,000
Well this is great because I 
think that we are the like when 

9
00:00:48,300 --> 00:00:51,200
the three of us are together. 
We're obviously the two who are 

10
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,200
most antagonistic toward one 
another, which is also, totally.

11
00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,200
And representative of her actual
relationship because of the 

12
00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,700
three of us like you. 
And I probably, See the world 

13
00:01:00,700 --> 00:01:03,300
far more awesome. 
Yeah, I don't normally mom real 

14
00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:04,300
world. 
It's us bullying. 

15
00:01:04,300 --> 00:01:08,900
Tom it's like Tom. 
Why, like why haven't you set up

16
00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:12,500
your life to like maximize for 
hallucinogenic experiences? 

17
00:01:13,500 --> 00:01:17,200
But on this show I guess I end 
up playing the tech Optimist in 

18
00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,800
your the yeah. 
I was gonna say I don't think 

19
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,700
I'm a pessimist actually. 
I just feel like you're not. 

20
00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:24,900
You're not like taking the 
marching orders from what text 

21
00:01:24,900 --> 00:01:28,200
talking about. 
So it's sort of your more, like,

22
00:01:28,300 --> 00:01:29,600
independent of it. 
Yeah. 

23
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,100
I'm Kind of like I'm kind of 
like a screening function for 

24
00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:35,500
the podcast like if it's 
actually made it to my 

25
00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:38,500
Consciousness it means that the 
whole world is actually heard of

26
00:01:38,508 --> 00:01:41,400
it and it hasn't it just hasn't 
broken through. 

27
00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,500
He's like, oh our people, you 
know, trying to arrest someone 

28
00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:46,700
over. 
This is the justice department 

29
00:01:46,700 --> 00:01:50,000
worried about it. 
That's what and thankfully this 

30
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,500
week you've been thankfully, 
we're going to talk about you. 

31
00:01:55,500 --> 00:01:59,900
Tom, had a great story on, go 
puff, that went sort. 

32
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,800
Many Tech viral, he reported 
that go puff workers were 

33
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,199
ordering Groceries on instacart 
to fill the gaps. 

34
00:02:08,699 --> 00:02:11,100
So it's, you know, tech 
companies, cannibalizing other 

35
00:02:11,100 --> 00:02:14,100
tech companies. 
But when I think so much about 

36
00:02:14,100 --> 00:02:18,000
that story is that was so, it 
was like the classic startup 

37
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,700
story, right? 
And everybody played their role.

38
00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:24,400
So startup has to cut some 
corners and hide the fact that 

39
00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,300
it's not quite ready. 
For Primetime startup gets 

40
00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:29,800
caught by a tech reporter 
startups. 

41
00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:32,800
Sort of like luminary startup 
figures, I guess it's hard to 

42
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:39,000
put it all respond with, this is
why the media is so mean what a 

43
00:02:39,008 --> 00:02:47,600
meal, Michael somebody teased 
him like, oh, like you're not an

44
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,300
expert at and you know, setting 
tons of money on fire. 

45
00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:56,800
For upside down, I didn't like 
it but it was I did chuckle 

46
00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:58,500
though. 
I mean, you know, they're there.

47
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,800
I mean, There could be a logic 
to go puff using in Sakura. 

48
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,900
I mean, delivering a good 
customer experience is is the 

49
00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:09,600
most important. 
I mean, it's just it's been 

50
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,000
amazing how much money investors
are willing to let these 

51
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,600
companies lose to get sort of 
the flywheel. 

52
00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,700
I mean there's always that 
argument which is you have to 

53
00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:20,200
get people to use this product 
as soon as possible. 

54
00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:22,900
And if the only way to deliver 
the kind of experience you're 

55
00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:26,900
promising is to order things 
from insta conquer. 

56
00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:30,100
Then so be it like will catch up
and sometimes companies Please 

57
00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:33,400
do catch up right, sometimes it 
out. 

58
00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,800
Well do you want to set up where
you've actually what oh did you 

59
00:03:36,808 --> 00:03:41,100
have another even the to the to 
my to my least favorite and most

60
00:03:41,100 --> 00:03:44,600
favorite tech story. 
So I need to I need to wait at 

61
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,300
least favorite being the hack of
the Wall Street Journal, no 

62
00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:52,200
bueno, very much, very much 
caused, Great anxiety, amongst 

63
00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,400
all reporters who've ever 
written anything about China, 

64
00:03:54,700 --> 00:03:59,400
terrible and then most favored 
the Bitcoin money laundering 

65
00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,000
couple. 
Which includes one half of a 

66
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,700
couple. 
Being a self-described comedic 

67
00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:05,900
rapper, I don't know Eric. 
Wait, which one did you want? 

68
00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:12,500
I think we should talk about the
more fun one first and then the 

69
00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:15,100
true diehards. 
Can listen to your takes on 

70
00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:19,700
media vulnerability which is 
also interesting but that's 

71
00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:22,600
really just for report that's 
her first. 

72
00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,000
You know, I realize that in why 
you never could have sources 

73
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:26,900
name and your Google doc. 
Right. 

74
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,700
So what was so great is um, When
the when the press release hit 

75
00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:34,200
everyone's inbox, right? 
We all get this, like the 

76
00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:35,900
justice department. 
We making a big announcement 

77
00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:40,500
today and it was on crypto and I
think that they're sort of a 

78
00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:45,500
it's hard to get excited over a 
crypto announcement from the 

79
00:04:45,500 --> 00:04:48,700
justice department because they 
basically are very similar at 

80
00:04:48,707 --> 00:04:50,900
this point. 
Something bad happened. 

81
00:04:50,900 --> 00:04:54,400
Often on the dark web and the 
Justice Department's able to use

82
00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,100
the blockchain to trace the 
money back to either a person 

83
00:04:59,100 --> 00:05:01,700
who perpetrated the crime or 
personally benefited from it 

84
00:05:01,700 --> 00:05:05,400
because even though, especially 
Bitcoin, but cryptocurrencies 

85
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,100
once marketed, as if you use 
this, you will evade governments

86
00:05:09,100 --> 00:05:12,200
and nobody will find you the 
very Margie behind the 

87
00:05:12,207 --> 00:05:16,300
blockchain, which is hey, hey, 
hey Ledger, a permanent Ledger 

88
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,500
is something that indeed law. 
Enforcement has figured out how 

89
00:05:19,500 --> 00:05:22,600
to use to trace to trace money. 
Great, the propaganda around 

90
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,000
Bitcoin is changed 100% used. 
Absolutely. 

91
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,600
Oh, it's Anonymous and now it's 
like, oh well there's this nice 

92
00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,300
record, so it's harder to commit
crime. 

93
00:05:31,300 --> 00:05:34,400
It's it's like ours that the 
same people who were spinning 

94
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,800
Bitcoin. 
Before I it does feel yeah, an 

95
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,200
overworked used word but a 
little gas lit. 

96
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,800
Just what what is the benefit in
terms of secrecy? 

97
00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,100
Has it extreme sort of 
transparency or yeah? 

98
00:05:49,100 --> 00:05:53,500
Anyway anyway and so we have 
seen several justice department 

99
00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:55,700
announcements around 
cryptocurrencies. 

100
00:05:55,700 --> 00:05:59,000
I was like, okay well this will 
be this will be fine. 

101
00:05:59,500 --> 00:06:03,500
But instead, what the justice 
department delivered to us was 

102
00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:10,500
the most amazing. 
The most amazing defendants. 

103
00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:13,800
It's found in a while. 
It's a married couple in 

104
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:18,200
Manhattan who were arrested last
week for allegedly, trying to 

105
00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,800
launder billions of dollars 
worth of bitcoin that were 

106
00:06:21,808 --> 00:06:24,600
stolen during this, like, 3.6 
billion my or? 

107
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:25,700
No. 
It's more than that was the 

108
00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:27,800
recovery. 
I think they were trying to move

109
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,600
more than 4 billion. 
But when so this goes back to a 

110
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:37,600
big hack in 2016 in the exchange
was called bitfenix and at the 

111
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,100
time hackers broke into this 
Exchange Believe it's based in 

112
00:06:42,100 --> 00:06:46,000
Hong Kong and they stole 72 
million dollars in Bitcoin from 

113
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,700
this exchange. 
This is 2016. 

114
00:06:47,900 --> 00:06:51,100
So it was still considered like 
a lot of money and in the 

115
00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:54,100
Bitcoin world but what it really
did is it made people nervous 

116
00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:57,400
about whether or not these 
exchanges which generally aren't

117
00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,400
regulated and nobody really has 
a transparent few exchange 

118
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,000
especially at that time we're 
transparent about their security

119
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,600
systems. 
Whether or not Bitcoin could 

120
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,600
kind of take off as a widely 
traded currency, if the 

121
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,800
exchanges themselves were so 
vulnerable hackers, could just 

122
00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,300
go in and take them part of what
I love about. 

123
00:07:16,300 --> 00:07:20,400
It is 70 million, some gets 
stolen, but then because it's so

124
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,300
hard to move the Bitcoin without
getting caught it like grows to 

125
00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:29,800
be worth is like right. 
So it's like nothing better than

126
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,100
just like being forced to hold 
an investment that ends up being

127
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,000
super Savvy. 
You'd imagine if they Of, they 

128
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,500
would have, you know, cashed out
on this 70 70 million, right? 

129
00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:43,700
And said they're sitting on like
billions of dollars and it's all

130
00:07:43,700 --> 00:07:45,100
great. 
It's great for the justice 

131
00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:46,300
department Museum. 
They had. 

132
00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:48,900
This was like the biggest 
recovery everything, right? 

133
00:07:48,900 --> 00:07:50,300
Exactly. 
They were like, this is the 

134
00:07:50,308 --> 00:07:53,800
biggest asset recovery at 3 plus
billion dollars, so they had 

135
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,900
line again for the justice 
department. 

136
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,300
It was a lot more exciting than 
if they'd recovered mmm 65 

137
00:07:59,300 --> 00:08:01,300
million. 
Do you need to get a report? 

138
00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:03,900
Maybe they were just sitting on 
this to try and get the maximum 

139
00:08:03,900 --> 00:08:05,000
bitcoin price. 
Yeah. 

140
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,200
At the best recovery headline. 
And they saw the markets turn 

141
00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:10,700
there like shit, we need to move
on this. 

142
00:08:10,700 --> 00:08:12,600
We gotta do it now. 
Yeah, yeah. 

143
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,100
Well I mean they were charged by
criminal complaint rather than 

144
00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:19,400
indictment which is a very nerdy
thing to even make a distinction

145
00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,500
about. 
But when you're charged by 

146
00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:23,900
criminal complaint, it means 
that the justice department 

147
00:08:23,900 --> 00:08:26,200
prosecutors did think to 
themselves. 

148
00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:30,100
We do not want to for some 
reason, we don't want to take 

149
00:08:30,100 --> 00:08:33,600
the time to put together a 
presentation for the grand jury,

150
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,400
and wait for the grand jury to 
decide. 

151
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,100
We're going to go straight to a 
judge and we're going to charge 

152
00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:39,500
these people by criminal 
complaint. 

153
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,000
They still have to obtain a 
formal indictment within. 

154
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,800
I forgot the number of days but 
oftentimes when you see that one

155
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,100
of the reasons why the just want
and there are several. 

156
00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:52,500
But one reason that just sperm I
do that is because they fear 

157
00:08:52,500 --> 00:08:56,000
that the people they want to 
arrest our flight risks. 

158
00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,800
Now I don't think anybody has 
ever said to me. 

159
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,600
Another reason for charging by 
criminal, complaint is fear that

160
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,400
the crypto currency Market will 
continue to plunge. 

161
00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:08,100
But I really like that as a 
possibility. 

162
00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,800
They'd also, as part of the 
investigation had to move the 

163
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,100
Bitcoin basically into their own
wallet, right? 

164
00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:19,700
So that could have created some 
sort of desire to move forward 

165
00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:20,800
with. 
These are a lot of questions. 

166
00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,100
They so why why it moved. 
So they do they they charge this

167
00:09:25,100 --> 00:09:28,000
couple by criminal complaint 
last Tuesday and then they 

168
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,000
arrest them. 
And what comes out is not just 

169
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:37,000
that, this is a couple who was 
trying Launder billions of 

170
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,100
dollars worth of bitcoin 
basically by creating, you know,

171
00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:44,700
lots of different wallets at 
lots of different exchanges, but

172
00:09:44,700 --> 00:09:49,600
one, they are not very good at 
it and to that they, as a couple

173
00:09:49,900 --> 00:09:53,200
are just this extraordinary 
pair. 

174
00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,600
It's a man named Leo 
Lichtenstein and his wife, 

175
00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,900
Heather Morgan and Heather 
Morgan and Ilya Lichtenstein. 

176
00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:08,200
They are trying to, you know, 
Move just like 19,000 bit. 

177
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:13,300
Crabber and Forbes contributor 
but not just a contributor. 

178
00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:17,200
She is a Forbes contributor who 
wrote about how not to get 

179
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,100
scammed. 
What's your rap name? 

180
00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,300
I believe. 
It's Razzle Khan. 

181
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,200
We're certainly going to clip 
that yeah. 

182
00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:26,900
Yeah. 
They'll have to find a Raza Khan

183
00:10:26,900 --> 00:10:37,200
clip. 
Silver on my fingers and boots 

184
00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,300
on my feet. 
Always be a girl. 

185
00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:43,400
Not a goddamn, a message at the 
beep. 

186
00:10:44,700 --> 00:10:47,400
I mean, there's so many things 
that are really great about her.

187
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:48,900
He did y combinator. 
Yeah. 

188
00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:52,700
I mean, brick great. 
I feel like I'm her but you can 

189
00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:56,400
tell from the criminal complaint
which is really detailed and 

190
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,500
actually really interesting if 
you want to understand how the 

191
00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:02,100
government can do things like 
Trace cryptocurrencies, they 

192
00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:05,400
moved from ball to ball it. 
You can tell that they've run 

193
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,400
into problems, the world has 
changed as 2016. 

194
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,300
So some of the Bitcoins that are
moving to different exchanges, 

195
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:16,300
the exchanges now want to comply
with With International banking 

196
00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:19,100
regulations, there's a know, 
your customer rule. 

197
00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:22,800
So some of the exchanges ask 
them to please provide 

198
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,500
identification because they want
to make sure that the person who

199
00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:30,100
opens the account is the person 
that the person says they are 

200
00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:32,300
and this couple is unable to do 
that. 

201
00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:35,900
So for example at that exchange 
their funds are completely 

202
00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:39,300
Frozen and they can't do 
anything with them and also it's

203
00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:41,700
a flag to The Exchange and of 
course that point you can 

204
00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,200
imagine that the exchange would 
do something like contact law 

205
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,700
enforcement. 
And say, we have an account and 

206
00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:48,200
they cannot verify their 
identity. 

207
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:53,400
And so the couple kind of runs 
into trouble at several terms as

208
00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,000
they try to launder these 
Bitcoins and at some way they 

209
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,800
start buying things like NF 
teas, with the Bitcoin, they 

210
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,700
start buying things like gold 
and then when one of my favorite

211
00:12:04,700 --> 00:12:07,900
moves, they just convert the 
money to a 500 dollar. 

212
00:12:07,900 --> 00:12:10,300
Walmart gift card home. 
They're just, they're just 

213
00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:13,900
classic likely, they're not 
drink them off, is very skilled.

214
00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:17,000
I mean, I was Your colleagues 
had a piece that was I think 

215
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,700
these they were envisioned as 
sort of these amazing. 

216
00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:25,200
Whoever whoever got this Bitcoin
was sort of some sort of super 

217
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,700
hacker or something and they 
seem like total bumbler sort of 

218
00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:33,400
huckster type people and 
everybody's trying to make sense

219
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:34,900
of it. 
Well, that was a thing. 

220
00:12:34,900 --> 00:12:39,000
Like once the government was 
able to get, you know, process 

221
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:44,000
to do things like get into 
lichtenstein's online. 

222
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,300
Accounts right, his Anatomy is 
online Financial accounts, but 

223
00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:51,000
like, basically getting to like 
his iCloud or, you know, 

224
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,600
whatever files information gets 
stored. 

225
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,800
They found that he was like 
extremely well-organized, right?

226
00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:01,300
He kept like a file called, like
passport ideas and he kept a 

227
00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:04,900
file called, you know, like 
passwords. 

228
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,600
So he, he was not only well 
organized, but he labeled 

229
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,600
everything really well, so that 
when the government did start 

230
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,000
rifling through, you know, 
basically his online In life in 

231
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,800
his video a file. 
I criminal activity. 

232
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,300
Yeah well I think my favorite my
favorite was that when they then

233
00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:26,900
went into the couple's home into
their apartment, they found a 

234
00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:31,100
bag that was labeled burner 
phones which he filled. 

235
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,900
I have one of those, you know 
and it doesn't every regular 

236
00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:37,800
American just have a bag of 
burner phones and you have to 

237
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,100
label the bag burner phone. 
So it doesn't you don't confuse 

238
00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:45,400
it with like you're, you're a 
regular home for Activity? 

239
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,400
Only or whatever. 
No, no accusations of drugs that

240
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,100
I'm aware wasn't there. 
Are there so many bizarre 

241
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:56,100
aspects. 
This, I mean the wife wanted to 

242
00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:59,300
go back to the apartment. 
Allegedly for her cat. 

243
00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:00,800
Do you know what I'm talking 
about here? 

244
00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:06,200
Yeah, I mean yeah, so they have 
I think there's a photo of her 

245
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,800
with the cat to but like, yes. 
So again there these are not 

246
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,500
like I would not say that they 
were, they were prepared a 

247
00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:19,400
criminal mastermind first sir, 
what to do, when the government 

248
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,800
starts investigating you, even 
though she He had written this 

249
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:27,400
article for first like how not 
to get scammed in the crypto 

250
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,100
world, but yes. 
So like they wanting to say go 

251
00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:33,900
back home to your apartment for 
your cat. 

252
00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:36,800
Would be something that I think 
I'm a hardened criminal would 

253
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,200
advise against, but then they 
let her go back, right? 

254
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,300
Yeah, yeah. 
Well, this is sort of 

255
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:46,300
interesting to like they're 
fighting, they, they were 

256
00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:50,800
released on bail and the bail is
like, extraordinarily high as 

257
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,600
you can imagine. 
And I Believe that for 

258
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,100
Liechtenstein the bill also 
includes like his parents house 

259
00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,500
and they're and they're 
basically arguing that that is 

260
00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:04,000
excessive given the flight risk 
that they pose. 

261
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,500
Clearly, the government doesn't 
think so, and the courts don't 

262
00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:09,900
think so. 
But I think they're trying to 

263
00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:12,000
make an argument. 
They're really not that 

264
00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:14,200
dangerous and they probably 
couldn't get away if they wanted

265
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,900
to. 
And while I can understand why 

266
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:21,700
the government be very invested 
in having this, this extreme 

267
00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:24,600
Bail. 
I can also see an argument being

268
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,900
made by their online. 
Existence, they're not 

269
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:31,400
sophisticated. 
She goes back to get the cat and

270
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,300
she like tries to mess with her 
phone and they think to like 

271
00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:35,900
lock it or something. 
Right? 

272
00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:37,900
Right. 
Exactly, which would be 

273
00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:41,600
extraordinarily foolish. 
I wouldn't say that it shows 

274
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,100
that it necessarily 100% shows 
intent, like men's Rhea that. 

275
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:48,700
Russ, I'm guilt there but it's 
certainly not. 

276
00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:53,900
It's certainly not the ACT 
typical I'm an innocent person 

277
00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:56,600
who just wants to see her cat 
right now. 

278
00:15:56,900 --> 00:16:00,800
A super bizarre. 
Point of this is just they 

279
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,000
weren't charged or I don't even 
know if charges are right word, 

280
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,900
given how this this was laid 
out. 

281
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:10,100
But the hack itself we don't 
know who did the actual have 

282
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,700
exactly. 
And like the government was very

283
00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:17,000
clear and very careful, I think 
to not accuse them of hacking 

284
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,700
into B, find X and they have 
also made clear through the core

285
00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:25,000
Papers that this larger 
investigation is ongoing. 

286
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,200
And so, one thing that they will
probably ask Razzle Khan and 

287
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:34,400
Lichtenstein is how they came 
into possession of these of the 

288
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,800
Bitcoins because the bit coins 
that were stolen from defined X 

289
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,900
were eventually moved into a 
wallet under election signs 

290
00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:42,900
control now. 
So, they're going to want to 

291
00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:46,200
know how that happened and 
whether or not they had 

292
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,900
Outreach. 
We know, hackers reached out to 

293
00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:50,600
them or what people, they 
already knew, they're going to 

294
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,700
try to pressure them to give. 
Information. 

295
00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:58,300
And they're going to use this 
criminal complaint, which will 

296
00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,700
help you to eventually become an
environment. 

297
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:01,700
They're going to use the 
criminal charges against them, 

298
00:17:01,700 --> 00:17:05,099
to apply pressure to see. 
If they if they have the 

299
00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:08,200
information, the government 
wants about the hawk and if 

300
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,900
they'll flip but it doesn't is 
there much of a signal. 

301
00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:17,400
Whether the sort of hunch here 
is that it was another person or

302
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:18,599
that. 
It was probably them, but they 

303
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,400
just want more evidence. 
Or is there any sort of Signal 

304
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,200
one way or the other, like the 
government hasn't really signals

305
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,400
one way or another. 
But I mean given, I don't know. 

306
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,500
I mean like, do you think that 
the person behind the song 

307
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,800
getting high in a cemetery, 
who's rapping? 

308
00:17:35,900 --> 00:17:38,700
I love me some grave. 
Grass, is the kind of criminal 

309
00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:41,700
mastermind, that would be able. 
Maybe they're like, great, you 

310
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:43,300
know. 
They're, it's like, we need to 

311
00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:48,000
leave a trail of just stupidity 
behind us, you know, like how 

312
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,100
hard is it? 
This is the 12 Dimension, is 

313
00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:53,700
this, what I like? 
I mean it's you know, I this is 

314
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:57,700
so random but I was listening to
I don't know, Bo Burnham clip or

315
00:17:57,700 --> 00:17:59,100
something. 
He's talking about you know, 

316
00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:03,500
eighth grade the movie made and 
he's Tashi I guess is wonderful 

317
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,900
through. 
Yes, so hard for me to watch, it

318
00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:08,800
was too real estate. 
But you know, he's talking about

319
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,000
the ideas, you know, the middle 
school or whatever, you know, 

320
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,400
puts out the Instagram, which 
makes her seem very cool. 

321
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,600
But then he's watching, you 
know, the real middle school or 

322
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:21,100
in the mall who seem super 
abilities and only catches the 

323
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:23,900
sort of brief. 
If second of coolness that she 

324
00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:27,100
can muster, you know, you, so I 
I don't even need to go down 

325
00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:31,700
this path to say, social media 
doesn't represent reality and 

326
00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:35,500
you could create breadcrumbs to 
make yourself look like a total 

327
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:36,700
lunatic. 
I don't know. 

328
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:40,900
I think it's more likely that 
they are sort of weird quirky 

329
00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:43,600
characters, but that doesn't 
sort of mean that. 

330
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:49,500
I mean, he one of them couldn't 
be sort of a Savvy hacker. 

331
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,300
I'll take that under 
consideration. 

332
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,200
I think. 
One of the things that people 

333
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,800
were surprised by is that they 
were involved, that they were 

334
00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,200
accused of this kind of crime 
because their online personas 

335
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,700
are so kind of like, Goofy and 
hilarious. 

336
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:07,100
Right? 
Sort of like, is razznik on 

337
00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:10,300
Billy a criminal mastermind. 
That doesn't, that doesn't seem 

338
00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:13,200
to make sense. 
What is I mean, the justice 

339
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,900
department, sort of posture 
towards crypto right now? 

340
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:20,500
I mean, you know, Katie Han who 
has her new fund, you know, 

341
00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:24,300
comes out of Of the justice 
department, obviously, you know,

342
00:19:24,300 --> 00:19:26,700
has been out for a while. 
Was it Andreessen Horowitz? 

343
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,700
Now it's their biggest bus. 
I mean, our is a sort of huge 

344
00:19:31,700 --> 00:19:34,300
amount of their resources, spent
on crypto at the moment or 

345
00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:39,000
what's, what sort of your read 
on law enforcement energy around

346
00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:41,700
this stuff? 
I think they take it very 

347
00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:45,900
seriously and part because 
cryptocurrency has for so long, 

348
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,800
it has been used as the 
financing arm of all sorts of 

349
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,600
legal activity, right? 
So From, you know, weapons 

350
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,900
dealing sanctions of Asia, and 
human trafficking. 

351
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:02,800
Drug trafficking that's been 
financed by more by 

352
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:05,500
cryptocurrency. 
So the Justice Department's 

353
00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:07,300
always going to be very 
interested in them in the 

354
00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:11,700
financial flows support illegal 
activity and one thing about a 

355
00:20:11,708 --> 00:20:14,700
bust like this. 
That's so interesting aside from

356
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:19,400
the from this couple is that it 
sends yet another signal and 

357
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,600
this it's the signal, they're 
trying to send over and over. 

358
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,300
Which is you used to think that 
this was a way to commit crime 

359
00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:30,100
because of the anonymity, but 
because of the permanence of The

360
00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:33,500
Ledger, we will trace it and we 
will figure out who you are 

361
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,800
eventually, it will take us a 
while, but we will figure out 

362
00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:44,100
the players in this chain and we
will determine who owned what, 

363
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:47,100
when, in some ways they're 
helping the crypto. 

364
00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:50,400
Yes, because that's why someone 
like Katie hon can feel 

365
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,300
comfortable investing. 
In this world basically when 

366
00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:56,400
she, you know, she's making the 
investment she's she wants to be

367
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,700
ahead of where regulation is 
because once both law 

368
00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:04,800
enforcement and regulation 
really have like a firm role 

369
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,500
that they're playing in the 
crypto Market, it will basically

370
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:11,600
say we have legitimized, this 
Market money is going to start 

371
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,800
flowing through it even more, 
bigger businesses Fortune, 100 

372
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,100
companies global companies can 
start using this market. 

373
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:21,800
And if you were an early either,
like the infrastructure, The 

374
00:21:21,808 --> 00:21:23,800
wallets. 
And the exchanges if you were in

375
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:29,300
early around the products that 
are created solely from this 

376
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:33,700
world like an FTS, you could 
make a lot of money. 

377
00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:37,200
But you do need that like layer 
of legitimacy because it's 

378
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,500
really hard for something that's
only considered to be for 

379
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:43,500
criminal, use to grow. 
And it's sort of a funny 

380
00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:46,900
contradiction of course of like 
the crypto world where they want

381
00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:51,500
it to be totally contract-based.
But then it seems like whenever 

382
00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:54,400
there is A pickle at the at the 
core. 

383
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,700
It is a human thing where they 
want sort of the same as the 

384
00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:00,100
legal. 
You know, the same as sort of 

385
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:04,400
contracts in the regular world 
where you're the intended, sort 

386
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,000
of structure of the agreement 
matters, more than the letter of

387
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,000
the agreement. 
You just sort of touched on this

388
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,000
like, very essential tension, 
in, in technology, right? 

389
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,000
That, you know, the more we want
things to be more Tech and less 

390
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,600
human. 
We keep getting to this problem 

391
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,300
that they Center is always 
human. 

392
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,500
I was literally walking around 
my neighborhood in Brooklyn and 

393
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:29,300
there were. 
So there was a real world. 

394
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:33,400
Illustration of board ape 
somewhere like someone was 

395
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:40,800
drawing nft art in New York so 
it is Bridge the digital real 

396
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,500
world divided a couple of things
have happened. 

397
00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:47,000
I mean board a, you know, is 
sort of, one of the big nft 

398
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,000
projects with crypto Punk's, you
know, there. 

399
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:53,100
I think like Thousands of these 
different eight. 

400
00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:58,100
Billis trations, people can buy 
the nft S they're worth tons of 

401
00:22:58,100 --> 00:23:01,300
money. 
So but they've been in the news 

402
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,500
for a couple of reasons. 
I mean, first of all, BuzzFeed 

403
00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:12,000
Katie new topless, you know, dug
up the names of the founders of 

404
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,200
board ape this month, just as 
Andreessen, Horowitz was sort of

405
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,500
working an investment that 
valued the company behind bore, 

406
00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:24,800
Dave said five billion Dollars 
and it was sort of, I mean, that

407
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,400
was, you know, the classic sort 
of crypto versus the media 

408
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,900
fight. 
I don't think everyone in crypto

409
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:35,400
is sort of against them being 
identified but there was, you 

410
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,800
know, there's sort of an appeal 
of anonymity in sort of crypto 

411
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,700
world and, and she's sort of 
exposed their names. 

412
00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:46,500
So there was some debate around 
that and then sort of at the 

413
00:23:46,508 --> 00:23:50,100
same time, there's this 
interesting element that, you 

414
00:23:50,108 --> 00:23:55,100
know, board Apes allows People 
who own them to actually own the

415
00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:58,200
intellectual property of the 
ape, which means that they can, 

416
00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:00,900
you know, brand their marijuana 
company with them. 

417
00:24:00,908 --> 00:24:04,100
And so then they're all these 
interesting questions of just 

418
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:09,900
how you maintain a brand if 
everybody who has one can be 

419
00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:14,600
sort of a Shameless opportunist 
with it and what what that means

420
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:18,900
and then yeah. 
So there's just I mean, I do 

421
00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:22,700
we're in this amazing world 
where I do think Speak to me. 

422
00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:27,000
And if T's are just wear a ton 
of the tech energy is like a lot

423
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,100
of interesting. 
I mean, lifts old CFO went to 

424
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:33,000
open sea. 
I think open. 

425
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,300
See, you know, which raised a 
thirteen billion dollar 

426
00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:40,100
valuation, you know? 
It is definitely sort of the Hub

427
00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:44,500
of some tech intellectual energy
at the moment. 

428
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:46,300
I don't know what stands out to 
you. 

429
00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:49,700
Well, I think it's interesting, 
just that anonymity was, was 

430
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,800
considered cool. 
Looks like a good direction for 

431
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,900
Tech to go in. 
I think that with social media 

432
00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:03,500
Tech was fueling, such a push 
away from privacy and away from 

433
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,600
doing things because you like to
do them, everything was like an 

434
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,700
exhibition and by being 
anonymous what was it? 

435
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:16,000
Greg Solano and Wiley era. 
Now I don't know how to say his 

436
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,600
last name by being anonymous. 
They were basically able to feel

437
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,500
Trends create trends. 
Create cool and do it and leave 

438
00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:28,300
all of the people who like 
glommed onto it, like they just 

439
00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:31,600
like they were like, we will be 
cool if we will create something

440
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,700
and anybody who does want to do 
that kind of Shameless 

441
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,400
self-promotion and anybody who 
wants to use the product, we've 

442
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,900
created in that way. 
They just look way less cool. 

443
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,100
Like, they just looked kind of 
lame but like, it's okay. 

444
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,100
I like that impulse, really I'm 
definitely on the, I don't know,

445
00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:50,500
real names are so valuable for 
now. 

446
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,500
Well, let me first. 
We saw there is one crypto 

447
00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:56,300
project. 
I'm blanking on the name who had

448
00:25:56,300 --> 00:25:58,000
it turned out. 
One of their Founders had 

449
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,400
founded, sort of another crypto 
project. 

450
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,700
That was like, super scammy. 
So there is an element that it's

451
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:08,000
just helpful. 
That's not, that's not the case 

452
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,800
I think with board Apes. 
But, but there is just this 

453
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,800
question, you know, if people 
are buying into something, don't

454
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,900
they have a right sort of 
understand the background of the

455
00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:20,200
creators. 
And I mean, these if you're 

456
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,600
creating an N of t, you're 
basically selling people that 

457
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:27,300
you're going to keep creating a 
bunch of energy around the 

458
00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:30,500
project by building more of a 
community or doing interesting 

459
00:26:30,500 --> 00:26:33,200
stuff. 
Even though you're making money 

460
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,100
basically upfront because these 
things spike in value and then 

461
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:41,100
you might not have as much 
incentive to keep it going. 

462
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:44,100
So it feels almost more 
important than anything to know.

463
00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:49,300
What sort of person you're, you 
know, you're aligning your 

464
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:51,600
financial interests with I 
guess. 

465
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,800
But I guess that's not a very 
fun answer. 

466
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:55,300
Yeah. 
I mean I guess it would like 

467
00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:57,900
that idea like creating 
continuing to create energy 

468
00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:00,600
around something. 
I just like the idea that that 

469
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:06,300
can be driven in an anonymous 
way rather than a Like I think 

470
00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:12,100
what we've become used to on 
Instagram is like the people you

471
00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:16,200
follow, who are celebrities 
being like continue to follow me

472
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,500
as I continue to draw you in 
with like my celebrity life and 

473
00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:22,800
the people who we follow, who 
are friends also being like, 

474
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,900
here's the best of my life. 
I mean, it's just like so 

475
00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:29,000
there's something that's become 
like and I don't know how to 

476
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,300
qualify this because I'm not a 
cultural critic, but it has that

477
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:38,000
same feel of Of for lack of a 
better word to genus of like 

478
00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:44,900
that same Vibe of like girlboss 
chuukese. 

479
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,500
Now the Washington Post Taylor, 
the Roses jump ship your 

480
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:51,800
unfortunately. 
I think not not allowed to use 

481
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,300
that word but I mean like when 
somebody does anything it just 

482
00:27:55,300 --> 00:27:58,100
makes you like so uncomfortable.
Because it's so uncool and I 

483
00:27:58,108 --> 00:28:00,300
just have to like look away. 
If to pretend it's not 

484
00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:03,200
happening. 
You think board apes are cool. 

485
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,400
Is that what you're saying? 
I just want to I think that in 

486
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,700
part by being anonymous and 
creating Buzz around just this 

487
00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:16,400
idea of something that's absurd.
Yeah, like they basically 

488
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,200
managed to get people who do 
have influence to to buy in, 

489
00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:22,500
right? 
You know what I mean? 

490
00:28:22,500 --> 00:28:25,600
Like, the fact that, I mean, 
what I liked about Katie story, 

491
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,700
as she tells you up front that 
they have been successful 

492
00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:34,800
because these essentially like 
nonsense and of tease you have 

493
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,300
Two celebrities of varying 
degrees willing to drop a half 

494
00:28:38,300 --> 00:28:40,300
million dollars just to be a 
part of it. 

495
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:42,500
Right? 
Not that I mean what it is is 

496
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,900
it's Paris Hilton and I forgot 
who the other guy is we didn't 

497
00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:48,900
Dave Chappelle by one of my I 
think so. 

498
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:51,500
Oh, it was Jimmy Fallon's. 
Sorry, Jimmy Fallon. 

499
00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:54,700
I think you're famous to, but 
you know what I mean? 

500
00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:58,200
It's like, Jimmy Fallon Paris 
Hilton between the two of them 

501
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,700
spent more than half a million 
dollars because they wanted not 

502
00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:04,500
just to own it and ft. 
They wanted to own. 

503
00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:08,700
Bored ape. 
Yeah Don her story but Dave 

504
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:13,600
Chappelle purchased for tape I 
think for three hundred 

505
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:19,200
seventy-one thousand dollars. 
Yeah I mean it's amazing and I 

506
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,800
just I just do think at the root
a lot of people participating 

507
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,300
are trying to make money and 
it's like yeah, financial gain. 

508
00:29:28,300 --> 00:29:31,100
Absolutely and I think that like
part of making money especially 

509
00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:33,500
when you're trying to move 
toward the consumer which is 

510
00:29:33,500 --> 00:29:38,300
what this is like Like I don't 
think that nft is are just like 

511
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:41,500
a an Enterprise only problem. 
You know, when you're trying to 

512
00:29:41,500 --> 00:29:45,100
move toward the consumer, you 
need to do it by making it cool.

513
00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:48,500
And there was a time like 
culturally where what was cool 

514
00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:54,000
was like direct to Consumer and 
like, self-improvement and J. 

515
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,000
Sickly like anything that looks 
like a, you know, a twenty 

516
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:03,000
fifteen to twenty probably like 
18 or 17 start up around like 

517
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,000
consumer stuff. 
Like This is going to help you. 

518
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,000
Optimize is going to help you 
maximize and help you Rise & 

519
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,100
Grind, all this bullshit. 
And I think that we've gone to a

520
00:30:12,108 --> 00:30:15,600
world that kind of reject that. 
And so it's not surprising to me

521
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:20,500
that this more absurdist product
is, is more interesting and 

522
00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:24,600
cooler, right? 
Yeah, I hope selfishly just 

523
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,200
because I'm not I'm not I'm not 
I'm not a rising grinder are 

524
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:34,800
like I I prefer like Shameless, 
stupid Financial speculation. 

525
00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:38,900
Russian and sort of signaling 
online to people who are just 

526
00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:41,900
like fake fake Grinders, I 
guess. 

527
00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:48,200
Yeah, between those two options,
guess like which which group of 

528
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,500
people is more likely to produce
like the Beastie Boys Sabotage 

529
00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:55,100
video, and that's how I feel. 
And that's how I just judge. 

530
00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:59,500
All all all things now. 
I mean I do think it's cool that

531
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:01,900
you know artists are making a 
bunch of money, all of a sudden 

532
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:04,700
because there's this wild 
speculation. 

533
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:07,900
So So, in terms of a group of 
people that I'm happy to get 

534
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:11,000
some upside, I think there are 
questions about how much the 

535
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,800
actual artists in the. 
It does feel like the people who

536
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,400
create the Project's, make more 
money than the people who 

537
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,600
illustrate them. 
Yes, gas which is unfortunate. 

538
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,500
Yeah, and I agree with that but 
it's just sort of a I mean, I 

539
00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:28,300
think we're kind of in a 
speculative time right now 

540
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,500
financially. 
And so, I don't think that like,

541
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:38,600
Getting rid of n FTS or refusing
to like take their existence 

542
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:39,400
seriously. 
In any way. 

543
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,900
Shape reform will will stop 
speculation. 

544
00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:45,400
Or will change the fact that 
right now? 

545
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,400
A lot of capital is in the hands
of very few people and that 

546
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,500
those people are not super 
inclined to do anything that 

547
00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:54,800
would create like most 
productivity and prosperity 

548
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:58,000
people. 
Well, that's I mean, my favorite

549
00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:00,500
topic and recent horror, I mean,
that is sort of the 

550
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:04,400
contradiction of, you know, 
Andreessen is big on sort of, 

551
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,500
it's time to build and sort of 
investing in, you know, Private 

552
00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:12,600
Industry somehow building big 
infrastructure again. 

553
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,600
I mean, well, I mean that's 
often represented by like the 

554
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,900
and arose and SpaceX is of the 
world. 

555
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:20,000
But then at the same time, it's 
the firm. 

556
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,000
This gauged and just sort of nft
games. 

557
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,800
I mean, I don't know. 
We obviously they're big enough 

558
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,500
now that they have sort of 
different, they contain 

559
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:33,700
multitudes. 
And I said, like, when you think

560
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:38,100
about that, that problem in some
ways what's happening in the 

561
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:39,600
tech world. 
The tech world is kind of 

562
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,400
especially like this startup 
World, their beneficiaries of 

563
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,600
this problem in the American 
economy but they're not based 

564
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,600
because of what their interests 
are there not like really well 

565
00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:55,800
suited to solve it. 
They're just sort of like 

566
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,200
playing at the margins. 
I mean I think it was the 

567
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,800
remembers the Wall Street 
Journal or the Washington Post. 

568
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,500
I had this very good. 
Good story recently just showing

569
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:08,100
how the employees of one of the 
country's largest grocery 

570
00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:11,700
chains. 
They have all reported that 

571
00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:14,900
they're homeless, or that they 
face eviction that they 

572
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:16,500
themselves. 
Do not have enough money to buy 

573
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:19,400
the groceries they sell. 
That's the bigger problem that 

574
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:24,100
we have a world in which a large
successful company, whose 

575
00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:28,400
Executives can make millions of 
dollars lives and dies. 

576
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,400
I'm ensuring that employees, 
cannot pay rent or live. 

577
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,800
With any sort of middle class 
quality of life. 

578
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,300
And in fact, faced homelessness 
and food insecurity like that 

579
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:45,300
sort of the bigger problem with 
the American economy and that's 

580
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,500
and that sort of like acceptance
that that's okay. 

581
00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:52,100
Because either help shareholders
or for some absurd reason. 

582
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,300
But your point is these nf3 
buyer that crease, the ecosystem

583
00:33:56,300 --> 00:34:00,000
in which, you know, Capital has 
now accrued to a tiny number of 

584
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,300
people and some of those people 
like. 

585
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:07,400
So Akan Valley, people they're 
just not equipped interested in 

586
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:13,100
or in any way like positioned to
solve or tackle that problem. 

587
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:15,500
So instead they're just like 
playing around the margins with 

588
00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:18,000
things like nfte. 
So your point is if you're 

589
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,100
nihilistic Ali going to waste 
your money on stupid consumer 

590
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:24,800
stuff, might as well be 
basically an acceleration estab 

591
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,600
out it and she would on the most
like extremely obviously 

592
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,900
pointless thing. 
So that then it becomes very 

593
00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:34,600
obvious. 
To society that you believe in 

594
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,900
nothing. 
And so then Katie better will 

595
00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:41,100
say that's good because at least
if you are like an empty Hollow 

596
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:51,400
husk, it will be very obvious to
everyone and be like and at 

597
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,000
least better that than you know 
I mean it is funny you know, and

598
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,700
as Miami yeah just everybody's 
in a fucking like Ferrari or is 

599
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:02,400
a, it is a crazy. 
I mean, to some degree. 

600
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,900
Tech is just in be embracing 
conspicuous consumption in a way

601
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:11,500
that they weren't really 
supposed to in San Francisco. 

602
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:12,500
Right. 
Right. 

603
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:13,700
That's so funny. 
That's true. 

604
00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:16,400
And there's, like, a way in 
which I feel like, you know, if 

605
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,900
we were to compare this decade 
to the post Spanish, Flu decade,

606
00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:25,400
you know, the our last pandemic,
you know, Tech is kind of like 

607
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:31,500
the Gatsby part of that era. 
A lot of attention is paid to 

608
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:34,100
it. 
There's a lot of money there and

609
00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:38,200
it looks like a lot of fun, but 
even in the Roaring Twenties, we

610
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,700
pay an outsize amount of 
attention to that part of what 

611
00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:45,600
was going on in America. 
And we kind of don't pay as much

612
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,100
attention to this like, really 
hard, horrible reality that for 

613
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:54,500
the mass of the country that was
not like the eff Scott 

614
00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:59,800
Fitzgerald portion of America. 
Let's see, we had the Resurgence

615
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,100
of the KKK. 
We had like This hatred of 

616
00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:07,500
immigrants, we had people 
incredibly poor poverty-stricken

617
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,300
like zero trust in the 
government and all sorts of 

618
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:13,700
other extremely troubling 
phenomenon. 

619
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,900
When we think about what that 
post, pandemic era was like, we 

620
00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:21,000
think about like the Roaring 
20s. 

621
00:36:21,300 --> 00:36:23,800
And I feel like that's kind of 
the role Tech is playing there 

622
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:25,800
there. 
We're thinking about, like 

623
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,700
they're, you know, Roaring 20s 
style Behavior, their absurdity,

624
00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:32,200
the fun of it, all the 
ridiculous. 

625
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,500
All you know Paris Hilton and 
some talk show host whose name I

626
00:36:35,508 --> 00:36:38,500
will never remember. 
I'm so sorry Jimmy yeah thank 

627
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:42,900
you Jimmy Fallon talking about 
how I'm a Conan O'Brien person 

628
00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:46,900
okay I'm Jimmy Fallon talking 
about half a million dollars I 

629
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:50,800
just read and we spent on this 
picture of an ape like that's 

630
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,000
what we kind of see and that's 
the part that we pay a lot of 

631
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,200
attention to because it's the 
glittery Bart and it's sort of 

632
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,400
like a bomb over the just the 
really troubling. 

633
00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:04,800
Lying reality that exists for a 
lot of people. 

634
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:09,100
Wow. 
And I and that concludes my 

635
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:11,400
time. 
You make my heart feel too hard 

636
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,700
and I don't know, it is yeah, I 
don't know. 

637
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,900
At least the tech people are 
trying to do interesting things.

638
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:23,800
I understand that they are 
fortunate enough to be able to 

639
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,300
waste their money on, all right.
And opportunity. 

640
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:30,300
I'm like everyone has a role to 
play Americans, like move less 

641
00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:34,200
than I believe ever before. 
Like there is a certain light. 

642
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:39,000
There's I feel like almost like 
they're playing their part right

643
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,400
there. 
Not as much as you this is you 

644
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,700
will not believe me, say this. 
I'm actually not like conferring

645
00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:48,400
a value judgment on. 
Yes, because I find it hard to 

646
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,700
even come up with an idea of how
any of these players could 

647
00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:55,500
behave differently and they're 
going to be people who are like,

648
00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:56,700
that's the dumbest thing I've 
ever heard. 

649
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:59,600
Like they could, they could give
up all their money and they 

650
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,000
could vote for Bernie Sanders 
and they could go work in a 

651
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,000
homeless shelter and I'm like 
okay yes they could and yet they

652
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,300
will not. 
And so like I I given like the 

653
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:14,400
structures in which they re 
Services, who spends a ton of 

654
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,200
money on homelessness, like 
Isn't it? 

655
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,600
I'm just the chassis contact was
the challenge. 

656
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,600
Like I'm sure it starts like 
cloud of people with them with, 

657
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:28,600
like, money to like burn on 
eight pictures, right? 

658
00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:31,400
Hey, I'm not talking about San 
Francisco and to your point like

659
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,700
they're in Florida or there in 
Texas, having just a great time.

660
00:38:36,300 --> 00:38:37,400
It's good. 
Great. 

661
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,600
Yeah, I'm gonna ideological 
inflection point. 

662
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,400
I don't know. 
What do you mean? 

663
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,800
I just, I It feels like we've 
passed an insane. 

664
00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:51,100
We've you know the body 
Administration has to bunch of 

665
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:55,400
safety, net measures. 
But when you say, you're in an 

666
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,600
ideological inflection point 
from what to what just you 

667
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:04,200
personally just to from? 
Yeah, the most important thing 

668
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:09,700
was social programs who the most
important thing being. 

669
00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:14,000
Here's my problem. 
I really like this is and I 

670
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,200
might cut all this Like on the 
one hand, I'm like, you know, 

671
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,800
die-hard Democrat, right. 
I do think like fascism is the 

672
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,100
most important thing I think 
Republicans are like 

673
00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:25,900
anti-intellectual. 
And I have a big problem with 

674
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:29,700
sort of the David Sachs, Peter 
thiel's of the world who I read 

675
00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:33,600
is basically being willing to 
play with fire in order to get 

676
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:36,600
tax cuts. 
They're basically willing to 

677
00:39:36,607 --> 00:39:40,300
like, say anything do anything 
to keep government small. 

678
00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:42,800
So, it's like this crazy, 
Republican party. 

679
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,500
That is Is just like, you know, 
a game, it's basically we'll 

680
00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:52,000
have a culture War so that the 
elites can cut taxes. 

681
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,000
So the Republican party to me is
the most. 

682
00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:57,300
It's disgusting on every level. 
It's disingenuous. 

683
00:39:57,300 --> 00:40:01,100
So so I there's nothing is to 
say that I'm having an 

684
00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:04,800
ideological. 
Like it doesn't mean anything 

685
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,200
because I'm sort of like, you 
know, as Democrat as you could 

686
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,100
be. 
But at the same time, you know, 

687
00:40:11,100 --> 00:40:13,600
you go to Europe and it just 
does. 

688
00:40:13,700 --> 00:40:17,800
I don't want like America to 
become someone like chillax like

689
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,300
and welfare state. 
Yeah, just sort of everybody 

690
00:40:21,300 --> 00:40:23,700
gets like I like the idea that 
America. 

691
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:26,900
Yeah you gotta hustle and it 
feels like the idea that there's

692
00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:31,200
a ton of money around the United
States and it like feels like 

693
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,800
some people aren't like seizing.
It feels like culturally 

694
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,300
disappointing. 
I don't think the Republicans 

695
00:40:37,300 --> 00:40:42,700
have any sort of answer to that,
but I do think sort of what the 

696
00:40:42,707 --> 00:40:46,100
Democrats themselves like to 
talk about which is just like, 

697
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:51,700
you know, Is is sort of lame. 
So I just, I just don't want the

698
00:40:51,700 --> 00:40:55,300
government to be, like, at the 
center of my like mine. 

699
00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:58,100
Like, I feel like we just spend,
I mean, it doesn't feel like 

700
00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:01,900
much is going to get done. 
I'm going to vote for Democrats.

701
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:05,500
I'm against fascism but it's 
just, I feel like there's a lot 

702
00:41:05,500 --> 00:41:12,400
of complaining without a clear 
like picture of of what what we 

703
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:13,300
want. 
I don't know. 

704
00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:15,000
Does that make sense? 
Or it does make sense? 

705
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,600
I mean, like first of all, I 
need to say, I don't I like 

706
00:41:17,700 --> 00:41:21,700
Obviously, I don't necessarily 
see politics in the same way 

707
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:24,700
that you do, which is fine or 
see, even the party's 

708
00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:27,700
necessarily in that way. 
But I do agree that this idea of

709
00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:32,400
focusing on politics is possibly
not the best way to spend one's 

710
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,500
energies right now and I wonder 
if part of the reason you feel 

711
00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:39,500
the way you do about politics, 
still being all so all-consuming

712
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:42,300
is because you spend a lot of 
time on Twitter, because if you 

713
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,400
are not on Twitter, right? 
If you were not reading these 

714
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,600
things like Massive. 
I mean, it's not like, I'm in 

715
00:41:50,607 --> 00:41:53,500
touch with, you know, 300 
million people, right? 

716
00:41:53,500 --> 00:41:56,800
But I think that if you're not 
on Twitter, it is very easy to 

717
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,800
have conversations with people 
about their lives and their 

718
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,300
problems, they're having or the 
or the not the problems, they're

719
00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:05,900
having just the thing they're 
doing that where politics is 

720
00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:09,200
like literally never mentioned 
at, all right? 

721
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,300
And I think that is a fine way 
to live, but my job obviously is

722
00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:17,600
a mix of Surfing the 
conversation to the extent. 

723
00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:21,600
This and then when I'm at my 
best you know, doing reporting 

724
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,800
and getting outside of the 
conversation, but there's an 

725
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,100
inherent it, you know, I guess I
could live in a world of only 

726
00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:31,700
sort of off the sort of 
narrative stories. 

727
00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:37,100
But it feels hard to sort of 
unplug from what sort of is 

728
00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:40,000
being shattered is hard. 
And I think that one thing that 

729
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,900
only phrases in a way that won't
happen for people won't come for

730
00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:45,300
me. 
But I do think that one thing 

731
00:42:45,300 --> 00:42:49,900
that Trump showed the world was 
that Is extremely useful as a 

732
00:42:50,100 --> 00:42:53,400
for our politicians who want to 
bypass, who want to bypass 

733
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,100
having to get messages out 
through more traditional means 

734
00:42:56,100 --> 00:42:59,800
like, you know, having a 
reporter right about it or doing

735
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,200
an interview with 60 Minutes 
that you can just have a direct 

736
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,700
relationship with your 
supporters, I had Twitter. 

737
00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:10,700
And so, I think that Twitter 
became a much more politics 

738
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:14,300
driven platform than it was 
before 2016. 

739
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:17,400
Like, before 2016, I can 
remember that Twitter. 

740
00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:20,500
Like obviously, there were 
people talking about politics in

741
00:43:20,500 --> 00:43:24,700
2014 and 2012, you know, the 
2012 election was not something.

742
00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:27,400
That was a shoo-in for Obama. 
I think that there's a lot of 

743
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,700
political chatter happening on 
the platform, but I remember on 

744
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:34,300
Twitter, I could also very 
happily just jump into groups of

745
00:43:34,300 --> 00:43:38,100
people who are just talking 
about, like, bands or who were 

746
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:41,500
talking about like life hacks 
or. 

747
00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:45,200
And so, I think that Twitter 
became political, well, some of 

748
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,600
it is just how these social 
media companies change. 

749
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,000
I looked I looked on the 
internet archive, we would tweet

750
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,200
about stuff like I'm going to 
this show, you know, I don't 

751
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,200
every single guy here and I see 
this movie, like I wasn't what 

752
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,000
he seemed like a conversation. 
It wasn't like I really ran on 

753
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,300
Twitter. 
It's sort of, like, why are you 

754
00:44:02,300 --> 00:44:05,900
talking about, you know, that 
there are a couple big themes? 

755
00:44:05,900 --> 00:44:08,800
And we're sort of all sort of 
amassing. 

756
00:44:09,100 --> 00:44:14,400
I started, I started I can't 
decide how I mean, I'm not 

757
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,600
really tweeting on it. 
I was just sick of not. 

758
00:44:17,700 --> 00:44:20,600
Being able to read Mark injury 
since tweet. 

759
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,300
So I created an account that 
that I named the name of it is 

760
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:31,100
not here to contradict Mark 
injuries and the account is p 

761
00:44:31,100 --> 00:44:37,900
Mark a fanboy and then it is it 
is interesting just to like 

762
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:42,600
inhabit sort of the you know, I 
followed Balaji and all those 

763
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:48,600
people that block me and I mean 
they're very It's they're still 

764
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,000
involved in like their own sort 
of conversation, you know, it's 

765
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,200
just great. 
It's a different sort of topic 

766
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:01,000
but it feels like it's sort of 
In The Same Spirit. 

767
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,800
Yeah, I remember like this was 
ages ago, and I think it was 

768
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,800
even before I covered the tech 
industry being involved in a 

769
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,300
conversation about Japanese 
debt, with, with Marc, 

770
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:14,500
Andreessen of all people. 
And then, a couple of other 

771
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:18,600
folks because I had just I slept
Fortune obviously. 

772
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,200
I was always interested in debt 
markets. 

773
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,500
That's so nerdy and ridiculous. 
But whatever, forgot, which 

774
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:27,000
short seller. 
It was not common but one of the

775
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:32,100
big shorts had put out in a sort
of an interesting. 

776
00:45:32,300 --> 00:45:34,000
He was in Texas. 
I'm going to remember his name 

777
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:39,200
someday, just an interesting 
thesis on, like, Japanese debt. 

778
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,000
And I thought that was like a 
very fun. 

779
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,900
Interesting random conversation 
on Twitter that I can't like 

780
00:45:45,900 --> 00:45:48,900
really We imagined happening 
today there's just like a niche 

781
00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:52,200
conversation that we all in that
moment that was interesting and 

782
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,800
then it went away and that's 
what Twitter used to be. 

783
00:45:56,500 --> 00:45:58,600
Did you follow the whole word 
Soul shape? 

784
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,900
Rotator thing? 
No, I saw, oh my God. 

785
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,100
Everybody else did their 
podcasts on this last week but 

786
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,900
Marc Andreessen has been really 
pushing it. 

787
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:13,500
But word cell, you know, it's 
somewhat a liberal arts sort of 

788
00:46:13,700 --> 00:46:17,400
engineer divide, but it's meant 
to be a B savvier that 

789
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,900
basically, the idea is, you 
know, it on an IQ test. 

790
00:46:21,900 --> 00:46:27,000
The biggest one of the most 
noticeable gaps in smart people 

791
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,300
is that there will be people who
are really good with sort of 

792
00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:32,500
word problem types and others 
who are good at, literally like 

793
00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:34,200
rotating shapes. 
It's like, if you have this 

794
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,300
shape which of these shapes is 
it? 

795
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,200
And so it's become sort of like,
you know, the market and reasons

796
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,200
of the world's are shape 
rotators and we are word cells 

797
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,200
and Market had a funny tweet 
where it was you know, of Of 

798
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,900
course, the word cells win at 
word arguments. 

799
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:52,200
They're spending, you know, all 
their time, word selling, and 

800
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,700
we're out here rotating shapes, 
you know, but it's become sort 

801
00:46:56,700 --> 00:47:00,300
of a, you know, and then, you 
know, they obviously come up 

802
00:47:00,300 --> 00:47:04,100
with like word chat, you know, 
it's sort of the 4chan is ation 

803
00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:08,700
of thinking about culture. 
I mean, I'm sad that word sell 

804
00:47:08,700 --> 00:47:11,300
sounds so much like in cell. 
Well, that's the point, That's 

805
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:14,000
the Way It Is. 
Well, the point is that we're 

806
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:19,300
we're sad that we Our cultural, 
we are you want to be Elites 

807
00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:23,700
were smart at words, but we are 
in an era where shape rotators 

808
00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:25,400
run, some of the biggest 
companies. 

809
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:30,000
And so we in a, in any other 
sort of hair shape, rotators 

810
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,800
always, run the biggest 
companies. 

811
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,200
Well, no, I think the argument 
is that, you know, politics used

812
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,800
to be sort of the center of 
because a lot of a lot of 

813
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,700
success, you know, was 
navigating hierarchies or, you 

814
00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:44,100
know you'd be the best, it some 
like big organization that 

815
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:49,100
lasted, I mean, You do 
successfully because of shape. 

816
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,000
But I want to know that on those
tests, I always score higher on 

817
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,900
shape rotation. 
It's interesting, the maybe I 

818
00:47:55,908 --> 00:47:57,900
miss, maybe I'm in the wrong 
job. 

819
00:47:57,900 --> 00:48:01,400
Yeah, that's funny. 
I have no idea. 

820
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:10,900
I'm not I know in cell with Eric
I'm a robot tying this word so 

821
00:48:10,900 --> 00:48:15,300
thing together, my P Mark 
Twitter account my political 

822
00:48:15,300 --> 00:48:19,000
uncertainty. 
You feel like I just don't think

823
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,500
that sort of dark web Twitter or
whatever. 

824
00:48:22,500 --> 00:48:25,000
We're calling a intellectual 
dark web. 

825
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,000
I don't feel like they're very 
honest about their core views 

826
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:34,300
like the aesthetic style of 
being sort of. 

827
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,200
Its I mean the fact that they're
all about these memes and that 

828
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,700
it's very jokey and that it's 
often sort of positioned in like

829
00:48:42,700 --> 00:48:44,200
sort of. 
Yeah, you don't know if they're 

830
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,000
being sarcastic or not like Like
there's this huge cultural Gap 

831
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,300
and how they communicate on 
Twitter from like a mad Iglesias

832
00:48:51,300 --> 00:48:54,200
where it's like, here's my 
argument for what I think we 

833
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,900
should do. 
And I do find it very 

834
00:48:56,900 --> 00:49:00,000
frustrating that they grow 
older, that people are referring

835
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,000
to. 
I just know, there's a whole 

836
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,800
range. 
I mean, because like, that is 

837
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,400
such a 90s way to be, I'm going 
to suck. 

838
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,800
I like as I and it's a way that 
I love him. 

839
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,300
Well, what if I like being 
disingenuous all the time? 

840
00:49:13,700 --> 00:49:15,800
What's the whole argument? 
It's like everyone's the 

841
00:49:16,100 --> 00:49:19,900
Garofalo character and the 
biggest, the biggest concern was

842
00:49:19,900 --> 00:49:23,300
that you'd be a poser, right? 
That's what I'm totally, which 

843
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:26,500
has no intellectual. 
Like, we're not be a poser, is 

844
00:49:26,500 --> 00:49:29,700
to not be genuine whatsoever 
about anything. 

845
00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:31,900
Right? 
Which I hate, you know, I want 

846
00:49:31,900 --> 00:49:35,700
to like, what is the, what is 
your argument like, what is? 

847
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,600
I feel like they're playing 
games. 

848
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,100
You know? 
It's they don't have to commit, 

849
00:49:40,100 --> 00:49:42,400
even though they're the ones who
argue that you should be a 

850
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,900
productive actor in society, you
know, you should actually do. 

851
00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:49,100
Do things when it actually comes
to sort of the intellectual 

852
00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:52,300
arguments, they're putting out, 
they want to do it in a way 

853
00:49:52,300 --> 00:49:55,600
that's just like fun. 
Or like, the tank isn't the 

854
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,300
wiggle room to be like, 
whatever, right honored, which 

855
00:49:58,300 --> 00:50:01,800
is like, literally how I led my 
entire Teenage life and right 

856
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,700
you 94 right? 
Just so that's familiar. 

857
00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:09,400
It's a familiar way of being. 
I mean I know not one that I 

858
00:50:09,408 --> 00:50:12,500
necessarily criticize. 
Well, I mean, I think we 

859
00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:17,600
obviously cheat my, you know, 
morphing sort of Ideology has to

860
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,200
do with, you know. 
Partially you know I'm a small 

861
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,400
business owner now but I think 
also besides that it is that, 

862
00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:27,500
you know, as a reporter as a 
reporter, you can write a story,

863
00:50:27,500 --> 00:50:29,100
that's very critical of 
something. 

864
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,100
And you might actually in your 
heart of hearts agree with the 

865
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:37,100
actual people that you're sort 
of credit that the story is sort

866
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:39,800
of putting a harsh microscope 
under, but you just believe in 

867
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,200
the activity of sort of looking 
into something and exposing it. 

868
00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:48,800
But I do think Now that I have 
more of a reported column, you 

869
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:53,500
know, there's more I I feel more
pressure to just sort of I don't

870
00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:56,500
I can't sort of escape the like 
core thesis statement that would

871
00:50:56,500 --> 00:51:00,100
say like what do you actually 
sort of believe, you know, 

872
00:51:00,100 --> 00:51:01,300
right? 
I see what you're saying. 

873
00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:05,400
When the justice department 
arrest to people whether or not 

874
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,700
you think what they did was bad 
or even that big a deal? 

875
00:51:08,700 --> 00:51:11,200
You're still writing that the 
right Randy, write profiles 

876
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,900
music, which is like they did do
something wrong. 

877
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,800
The reason your Eating is 
because they were arrested even 

878
00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:20,900
in your heart of hearts, you're 
like, whatever, I don't care, 

879
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,500
right? 
I don't even think it's on. 

880
00:51:22,500 --> 00:51:27,500
It was gonna get wasted by other
people like glad these fun 

881
00:51:27,500 --> 00:51:30,600
people who are willing to risk 
it all, or having a little 

882
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:36,400
Razzle Khan as you deserve that 
money more than whoever you 

883
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,100
know, Ernest early crypto 
investors. 

884
00:51:39,100 --> 00:51:45,100
As you know, she's a rapper. 
I mean I'm that's not how I feel

885
00:51:45,100 --> 00:51:48,700
about the So couple, but I can, 
I can totally see that with, 

886
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,900
with other things. 
Like there are white collar 

887
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:55,000
crimes or there are, you know, 
issues that people might not 

888
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,000
care about as reporters. 
But yet they have to say, the 

889
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:03,700
justice department is blocking, 
some em, a deal which has some 

890
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:06,200
sort of like, in Firenze of it 
being bought, in the eyes of the

891
00:52:06,207 --> 00:52:08,700
justice department. 
But the reporter might actually 

892
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:12,400
not actually care about whether 
or not this will impact 

893
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:17,400
antitrust laws, were you. 
You were very To talk about the 

894
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,600
Wall Street Journal half because
I think clearly from our 

895
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,800
messages with each other, you're
like, this is very important and

896
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,100
this is society in the world 
even journalists don't seem to 

897
00:52:28,100 --> 00:52:31,700
care about it. 
So while I was very personal, I 

898
00:52:31,700 --> 00:52:35,300
miss your use the platform to 
tell people why this Matters To 

899
00:52:35,300 --> 00:52:37,000
The World is very 
straightforward. 

900
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,600
The Wall Street Journal, writes 
a story saying we've been hacked

901
00:52:40,500 --> 00:52:43,000
All of the reporters whose 
Google Docs been March through 

902
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:47,400
by the PRC, had to sit in a 
meeting and kind of sit with the

903
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:52,400
fact that the Chinese government
had read all of their Google 

904
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,000
documents that seem to have any 
pertinent information around 

905
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:56,400
China. 
And then there was just the 

906
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,400
bigger question of how did this 
happen, you know, Google came 

907
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,400
out and said it was not because 
our Google Suite was broken 

908
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:04,800
into. 
And that was very, very 

909
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,500
important. 
Because so many companies, 

910
00:53:07,500 --> 00:53:11,700
including the New York Times, 
use Google, To power our mail 

911
00:53:11,900 --> 00:53:15,400
and newcomer Newsroom is powered
by the new chemicals, always 

912
00:53:15,500 --> 00:53:19,400
equally hard. 
And that means that our 

913
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,900
documents are often stored using
the Google office suite. 

914
00:53:22,900 --> 00:53:29,400
So, to have an incident where 
all of these reporters were 

915
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,500
hacked was for, I will just say,
for some reporters, at the New 

916
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:36,600
York Times, very concerning 
right? 

917
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,500
Let's try not trying to it 
seemed like it was retribution 

918
00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:43,900
for The art, the disputes 
between the Wall Street Journal,

919
00:53:43,900 --> 00:53:46,500
and, and China, before they 
kicked, all the reporters out of

920
00:53:46,500 --> 00:53:50,400
the country. 
But, you know, you can imagine, 

921
00:53:50,500 --> 00:53:54,500
if you were reporting on say a 
chest, Orion Chinese corporate 

922
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:58,900
Espionage and you had 
interviewed, you know, 

923
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,500
government officials, whether 
they were at the justice 

924
00:54:01,500 --> 00:54:05,000
department or the CIA, whether 
you would interviewed former 

925
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,700
officials, who now do business 
with companies and advise them 

926
00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:12,500
or work at places like You know 
some of the big Aerospace 

927
00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:16,700
corporations, you can sort of 
see how the Chinese government 

928
00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:19,600
be interested to know what those
folks were telling the media and

929
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:26,300
who is saying it. 
So you just again and you never 

930
00:54:26,300 --> 00:54:30,300
want to put a name and that 
Google doc right like never ever

931
00:54:30,300 --> 00:54:33,300
ever. 
But yeah, so it has just like a 

932
00:54:33,300 --> 00:54:35,900
girl it was just a really good 
reminder. 

933
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:40,600
I think to be incredibly careful
just in case there is a Disaster

934
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,400
heck oh yeah like you and Tom 
and I were texting. 

935
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,500
You guys were getting ready to 
do an episode and I was like I 

936
00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:49,700
have to report right now and 
also scrub all of my account. 

937
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,400
Make sure everything's. 
Yeah. 

938
00:54:54,700 --> 00:54:56,600
Yeah. 
I was I think, I think it's just

939
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,000
me and like seven other 
reporters who cared about that 

940
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:00,100
story. 
Yeah. 

941
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,800
But we cared a lot 
understandably. 

942
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,300
Hey, it's just yeah, everything 
gets hacked someday. 

943
00:55:07,300 --> 00:55:11,200
It'll be me and I'll be sad 
about it, but it's hard to hard 

944
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:16,200
to get upset in the abstract 
because it feels, I get spam II.

945
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:17,700
Think I'm getting fished all the
time. 

946
00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:21,300
I get very strange emails and 
calls only. 

947
00:55:21,300 --> 00:55:24,900
Oh, like life is just ignoring 
weird inbound. 

948
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,800
No, don't click on any. 
Yeah, I don't know if I've ever 

949
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:32,100
bought Norton Security Suite 
ever in my life, but I got a lot

950
00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:36,600
of emails saying, my Norton 
Security Suite is no longer 

951
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,100
working and I just want to click
on this link to fire back up. 

952
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:45,200
Also, I now get emails every day
that say they're from Amazon and

953
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,200
that my account has been frozen,
right? 

954
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,100
And that my Amazon Prime 
packages will not be delivered. 

955
00:55:50,100 --> 00:55:53,100
But I can see how a person in a 
moment of panic would read that 

956
00:55:53,100 --> 00:55:58,000
and be like, oh, no, well, it's 
very useful that I have a Macon 

957
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,000
Georgia, phone number, but I 
live. 

958
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,100
And I talked to basically no one
from Macon Georgia because all 

959
00:56:03,100 --> 00:56:07,300
those scammers I think calling 
me from Georgia, is the Savvy 

960
00:56:07,300 --> 00:56:10,800
move, but I'm like nobody calls 
me from Georgia unless they're 

961
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:14,700
in my contacts already. 
So I just ignore, you know, all 

962
00:56:14,700 --> 00:56:20,200
calls from my home state which 
ends up being a great, screening

963
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:21,800
mechanism. 
There you go, everybody. 

964
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:22,900
Go get him. 
Making sure that. 

965
00:56:22,900 --> 00:56:27,300
No never, alrighty, it was 
really to speak with you. 

966
00:56:27,500 --> 00:56:29,700
Yeah. 
Hopefully Tom be feeling better.

967
00:56:30,100 --> 00:56:32,400
I think Tom would be curious to 
see how I do. 

968
00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:36,400
I think he'll be Maybe he'll be 
pleased that we get along. 

969
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:50,500
So work on Sally, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

970
00:56:50,500 --> 00:56:53,200
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

971
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,400
Maybe he'll be pleased that we 
get along. 

972
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:50,500
So work on Sally, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

973
00:56:50,500 --> 00:56:53,200
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye.