1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,360 Hey everybody, I'm back. We're back. 2 00:00:02,760 --> 00:00:07,040 Eric, Tom, Madeline, we're all back on the Newcomer Podcast. 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,480 I've been here, I've been here. Yeah, So the show that you may 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:13,440 have liked or may not have liked is now returned. 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,160 Listen, I think we got a lot to go through. 6 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,560 It's been a lot happening in AI. And I understand this is not the 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,640 Cerebral Valley podcast specifically, but money is 8 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:25,440 flying. Money is flying here in tech. 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,960 If you are an AI researcher, you should be making at least 8 10 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:30,560 figures. You should probably start 11 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:33,040 claiming that you're an AI researcher to just see like what 12 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,400 the offers look like. Where do we even start? 13 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,400 Yeah, Madeline, you want to give us a rundown? 14 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,080 I mean, you've been digging into, I feel like there are 15 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,080 tables on tables of different Meta employees making a bunch of 16 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,280 money. We've tried to make the table to 17 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,360 end all tables, just pulling them all together with What's 18 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,040 your read right now on Mark Zuckerberg's, uh, recruiting 19 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,080 frenzy spending bonanza here? Right. 20 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,880 Well, 8 figure comp packages from Zuckerberg are the entry 21 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,880 level some people are getting, you know, 9 figure comp packages 22 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,880 out of this hiring spree. But it really kicked off in 23 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,800 earnest last month with Meta's Aqua hire of Alexander Wang from 24 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,240 Scale AI to lead the new Meta Super Intelligence Lab team 25 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,920 within the company. Meta paid over 14 billion for a 26 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,240 14% stake in Scale just to get Alex over on the team. 27 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,080 But since then, he's also poached Nat Friedman and Daniel 28 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,240 Gross there and is, you know, buying out a stake in their 29 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:29,960 investment fund to have them come work for. 30 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:34,320 So really just unprecedented amounts of capital wrangling to 31 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:37,240 get the biggest names in AI to lead the team. 32 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,240 And they've got, you know, obviously they've been picking 33 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,200 open a is pocket. They've got more than a half 34 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,720 dozen people from Open AI. They've got people from 35 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,920 DeepMind, Anthropic, Apple. As of this week, as of Thursday 36 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,960 recording, they've poached at least 10 people from Open AI to 37 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,160 join this team, in addition to those other big names. 38 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,880 As a side point to all of this, I mean, you know, a lot of the 39 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,520 narrative really kicked off, you know, when, like you said, the 40 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,000 scale deal happened. But then Sam, I thought really 41 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,400 unstrategically goes on I think his brothers podcast. 42 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:10,440 And he's just like, yeah, they're coming at us, but they 43 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,920 haven't gotten anyone good yet, which is a stupid thing to say. 44 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,680 He's like getting them on. On all on all fronts, it's we 45 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,200 have one clearly Zach, one of the most psychotically 46 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,120 competitive people in the history of, you know, 47 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,120 civilization saying like you can't get our people is like 48 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,120 just red meat for him. But also like you're basically 49 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,000 saying everyone that they did get was shitty and they did end 50 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,600 up getting shitty people. And like I understand like Sam 51 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,720 is still figuring out how to like measure his. 52 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,800 Like I'm a deep thinking AI guy and I'm very calm with the fact 53 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,080 that he also is psychotically competitive and doesn't like the 54 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,880 fact that Zuck is coming at. The the Philosopher king posture 55 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:50,840 with the cutthroat business leader of our AI future. 11 56 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:53,960 could also say missionary versus mercenary in that dichotomy 57 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,880 there. It's not just open AI, to be 58 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,120 clear, they've poached a lot of deep mind researchers. 59 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,800 And then roaming Peng from Apple Bloomberg is now reporting that 60 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,680 they have poached with a 200,000,000 / 4 years total comp 61 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,200 package. So these are serious offers just 62 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,160 from across the table of AI research. 63 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:14,760 People should be cheering for this. 64 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:16,600 This is my my first take I think. 65 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,880 You know gone are the old days when Apple and Google had anti 66 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,760 competitive alliances to artificially repress salaries. 67 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,920 I mean, these, this is the working class these these are 68 00:03:28,920 --> 00:03:33,080 workers getting paid a lot of money for producing or Tom, I'm 69 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,320 curious what you take that like it's like. 70 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,640 Yeah, this is ultimately the proletariat winning. 71 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,200 Yeah, sure. The white collar proletariat, 72 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,400 that they're all basically creating technology that will 73 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,840 one day make white collar jobs no longer viable. 74 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:47,520 Yeah, you're right. There's a certain logic. 75 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,240 If you're the last man to ever work, it's like, yeah, you take 76 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:51,160 the money, man. A lot. 77 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,920 Like, right, like this is generational wealth because your 78 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,040 children, if they're also white collar workers, will never have 79 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,240 jobs. Yeah, I don't know. 80 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,360 I, I guess like we've been following the kind of turmoil at 81 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,880 meta on their AI team for as long as I've been with, with you 82 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:06,240 guys. I think it was like the first 83 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,400 story I wrote at newcomer was like, man, Llama is, is sucking 84 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,920 right now. Like they just have not done a 85 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,280 good job keeping up and DeepSeek, I think really fuck 86 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,360 things up for them. And so at some point, and there 87 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,320 were some good stories in the, you know, New York Times and 88 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,680 elsewhere about kind of like internally at meta what's been 89 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,080 going on, but suck. Just realized, like, either if 90 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,200 we're going to be playing at this, we need to use the only 91 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,360 asset that we really have here right now, which is like, you 92 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,680 know, endless, deep, deep, deep pockets. 93 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,120 It's just money. Yeah. 94 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,480 And that's always kind of Ben Zuck's thing, right? 95 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,840 You know, like the ideas side of him is not always sharp. 96 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:42,280 He he has money and he has network effects. 97 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,280 There's a lot of users, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 98 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:48,320 So like Facebook is, you know, not growing at all almost. 99 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:50,680 And so you buy Instagram and you and you get WhatsApp, you 100 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,560 basically just buy your way into like continued relevance as a 101 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,360 company. And like there's no specific 102 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,160 company to buy really an AI, an AI that's going to make you, you 103 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,800 know, top, you know, top tier. So just get the research because 104 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,320 it's really just talent. Well. 105 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,000 There's some, there's, there's a very, very limited pool of 106 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,920 researchers that can be building these models at this scale. 107 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,000 So it is really like a small pool of people that can be bid 108 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,120 on at the Super high comp packages. 109 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,240 Like there is just a limited pool of worker resources to go 110 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,120 around. You guys are a little deeper in 111 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,400 it than I am, but I have to imagine open AI's weird 112 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,120 shareholder structure is not helping it retain these 113 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,040 employees. Like, first of all, you have 114 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,160 this question mark around what these shares really mean and how 115 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,240 how the company sort of sorts out. 116 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,640 Where is it meta? You know, you're getting public, 117 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:40,680 public shares, you know what they're worth. 118 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,880 And then there have been all these secondaries that allowed 119 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,200 open AI people to get liquidity. And so it's like, whoa, I've 120 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,360 already gotten paid out from you, I can go on to the next 121 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,280 thing. Or what's your read on how 122 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:55,880 opening I set this thing up? Yeah, I think well the the this 123 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:00,240 was brings back to like Sam's, you know like hubristic comment 124 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,000 like you can't poach from U.S. Open AI has been losing people 125 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,520 constantly over it's life as a company. 126 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,480 This is not like a a company full of lifers. 127 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,680 There are. Some, I mean Anthropic exists as 128 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,400 a defection from open AI. The story of Open AI is a story 129 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,480 of people leaving open AI. Basically right? 130 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:22,360 Like like Elon, Dario, you know, Mira Ilia, like it's, it's, it's 131 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,560 an endless list of alumni that, that come there. 132 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,080 So this idea that these guys are like all missionaries who want 133 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:28,880 to stay there for life, it's just not true. 134 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,080 And it's a complete, I think they're the sympathetic argument 135 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,040 is that they're missionaries in that they want to be there when 136 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,600 AGI is bored. I think a lot of them do want to 137 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,640 be be in the place where it's born. 138 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,000 And if you can convince them like, hey, you know, our our 139 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,080 superstar team is moving from this place to this place, you'll 140 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,200 have another shot at it. Or you think this is about money 141 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,960 and not not about well, it is AGI. 142 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:52,840 Yeah. Well, I also like in reporting 143 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:56,120 out that piece that I did a couple weeks ago about basically 144 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,600 all of this and and Meta's recruitment, I was really struck 145 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,040 by 1 researcher I talked to who was like basically creating an 146 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,680 AI model as a recipe. And there are certain people who 147 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,680 have the recipe in their brain and the what you're paying for 148 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,880 when you poach someone from a labs to go to the new place so 149 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,440 they can recreate the recipe. And what's going to end up 150 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,120 happening is that like you have all the recipe knowers at the 151 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,120 different labs around the, the industry and they're probably 152 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,840 all going to reach AGI at the same time or very close to each 153 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,040 other. And so I think what my guess is 154 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,520 like the realization a lot of researchers had is like, there 155 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,160 isn't the place that it's going to happen. 156 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:29,880 It's all leafy. Now, and everybody's going to 157 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,160 have it, might as well get paid the most along the way, yeah? 158 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,960 So why not, why not get yours? Like, if that money's out there, 159 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,240 what are you going to be like a missionary and take less money 160 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,640 with like weirdly illiquid stock so that you can like maybe get 161 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,880 AGI two weeks before the next lab does? 162 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,680 Like, it doesn't really compute. And so I think that more than 163 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,200 anything, which is man. We need to build a business just 164 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,440 for these 100 million employee like whatever they want to read 165 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:54,800 and then just the advertising budget on that, like get in 166 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,520 front of like the ludantic. Just like just people pays. 167 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,800 Like a ten person e-mail, you know, they're like hedge fund 168 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,960 newsletters we'll have just like the AI researcher, you know, 169 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,200 like 20 person. How much would Zuck pay us so 170 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,560 that we could have like, you know, ads in front of like the 171 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,480 10 most important research? Exactly. 172 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,600 Just like on their minds. Yeah, so like that, that's, 173 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,240 that's all been very funny to watch. 174 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,360 Yeah, play out. And then you know, like we'll 175 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,040 see how it all happens with meta, right? 176 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,800 Like they have the teams in place and I'm interested to see 177 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,200 how long it takes for them to like redo the llama training to 178 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:29,640 get to a point where this was all worth. 179 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,039 At least they'll get a model that's competitive because 180 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:33,679 that's the problem. I mean, making money off of it 181 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,120 is a whole different story with with that company. 182 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,120 They're open source. They've never really made a dime 183 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,799 off of it. Like this is going to be a long 184 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:43,640 term play for for for meta to make it work. 185 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,600 But in the meantime, all these guys get rich. 186 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,640 So what does this all mean for Llama? 187 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,920 Obviously Llama 4 was sort of a disaster. 188 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:55,080 Do you think Meta sticks with its open source strategy of just 189 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,040 making no money and foiling the competition? 190 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,960 Or you think, now spend all this money and better come up with a 191 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:03,800 a proprietary product for itself? 192 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,920 I hope they do. I hope they keep with the open 193 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,760 source thing because to me if Zuck's whole play is about 194 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,400 fucking over Sam just. Burn the forest down. 195 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,320 That would be the best way to do it, right? 196 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,480 And I always thought that was the smartest aspect that he had 197 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,600 there in the 1st places, like looking, because he's very 198 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,400 jealous, I'm assuming, of Sam. And as he was coming up to being 199 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,360 like the voice of Silicon Valley in this moment that he's like, 200 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,680 oh, well, what if we just take the same technology but release 201 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:27,640 it for free? That'll destroy these people. 202 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,200 They'll have no business, which I thought was cool. 203 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,680 I actually thought that was like an actually badass play. 204 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,920 And if he decides to get rid of it because he just wants to make 205 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,520 money in some consumer product, I will be really disappointed. 206 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,680 There is a very subtle monetization mechanic on this, 207 00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:47,440 which I saw YouTube said that people who dump like AI stuff 208 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,600 onto YouTube will not be allowed to monetize it. 209 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,400 And there's certain argument that like Google and Facebook, 210 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,160 they could be the content providers. 211 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,080 You know, it's like if, if there's this AI appealing 212 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,880 content, it's like you block everyone else from it and you 213 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,760 are sort of the exclusive content provider. 214 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:06,440 I don't, I don't know that's. I haven't heard that. 215 00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:09,240 That's interesting. I mean, The funny thing with 216 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,120 Facebook and AI or Meta and AI is that, you know, like when 217 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,480 stories would come out that like Llama 4 Behemoth is delayed, 218 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,720 their stock drops. And I didn't ever really 219 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,680 understood that because they don't make any money off of it. 220 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,640 But there's just this general acceptance on the part of 221 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,200 investors that like, well, AI has to matter for everyone. 222 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,480 So it's important that you like have a, you know, a. 223 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,600 And there is like, you know, open source projects if you're, 224 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,440 you know, if you're around them, usually you know, people have 225 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,560 figured out how to make money. Sure, it's a distribution play 226 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:39,880 like that's what it is with Google and Chrome and and and 227 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:40,960 Android. Did I say Chrome? 228 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,640 I mean, Android with Google and Android, so yeah, sure, I don't 229 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,680 worry too much about like their ability to make money off of it. 230 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:50,600 But for this in the short term, having this, you know, open 231 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,120 source high level model, like like we saw DeepSeek really 232 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,400 through the industry in a turmoil for at least a little 233 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,000 bit. You know, you think Meta could 234 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,120 do that at a much larger scale. So it's kind of exciting. 235 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,120 I'm betting on closed source to be clear. 236 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,120 I mean, that's the smarter bet, but also the two biggest 237 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,000 companies that are succeeding on it right now are closed source, 238 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,160 right, and Tropic and Open AI and then I guess Google as well. 239 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,120 So yeah, that's a. That's a safe bet. 240 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,720 Well, moving on, outside of open source or closed source, you 241 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,480 probably don't want your model of becoming Mecca Hitler. 242 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,080 So that was the other big story, political. 243 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:23,600 Orientation. These days, that's. 244 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,040 True, I don't know. If it happens, it happens, yeah. 245 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,880 Unfortunately, we probably don't want the API to be Mecca Hitler 246 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,200 on this podcast. But yes, we're talking of course 247 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,000 about Grok 4. XA is new model that was debuted 248 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,880 by Elon Musk earlier this week, which was overshadowed by its 249 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,880 Grok chatbot interface on X. Just ramping up the racism and 250 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,440 politically incorrect speech in all of its replies to 11. 251 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,800 So you can't. Really be like, oh, we know what 252 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,120 that last name means, you know, just like it's it's so. 253 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:57,960 Bad. I couldn't tell if it was real, 254 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,040 right? Did you see the tweet or it was 255 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,760 like a screenshot of one that was like Grok 4 was getting 256 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:06,680 really explicit about Linda Yak or Reno. 257 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,920 Did you see that? One I I saw something about Will 258 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:11,560 Stansel. Yeah. 259 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:13,080 How did Will Stancil get inserted? 260 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:14,440 That was true. Oh, no. 261 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,000 Will Stancil is like the lead anecdote to the journal story 262 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,080 about this, which I think is a little ridiculous. 263 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:20,520 Like, you know, come on, It's like I. 264 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,720 Mean people are like walking. They're like convincing the 265 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,160 model to do this right. It's like they're doing like 266 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:26,840 thought experiments sort of stuff. 267 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,280 Yeah, it's like, don't, I don't know, I there's clearly an issue 268 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,280 in terms of it's like, you know, guidelines and and and how it's 269 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,040 allowed to interact with people. I don't honestly think Rock was 270 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,480 giving people specific ideas on how to like attack and rape Will 271 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,840 Stancil. And this was like a, you know, 272 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,360 he. Was a random Lib Twitter account 273 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,880 that's too deeply ingrained in our brains. 274 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,000 He also ran. Thanks to thanks to you and I 275 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,560 guess. Can I speak out in defense of 276 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:56,240 Mecca Hitler for one second? Sure. 277 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,000 Not a take I expected. I can't believe I'm going to say 278 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,840 this. I think X AI deserves a lot of 279 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,960 credit for what they've built within the model game. 280 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,080 They are a far smaller lab than almost all the other companies. 281 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,280 They basically were made-up by, you know, Igor Babushkin, who is 282 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,200 this ex DeepMind guy who came in there definitely on the, you 283 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,440 know, premise of wanting to build the anti woke open AI, the 284 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,840 anti woke, you know, woke chap GBT and they fucking did it. 285 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,280 Like Grok 3 is a really good model. 286 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,120 It it like it's absolutely competitive with all the other 287 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,200 big models. They built this giant database 288 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,120 in Nashville Colossus. I don't know yet how good Grok 4 289 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,440 is, but like according to the benchmarks, which are can be 290 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,440 which can be games, so you don't want to give too much credit to 291 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,280 it. And as we saw with with Llama 4, 292 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:41,840 you can do well on the benchmarks and actually have a 293 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,120 completely useless model. But like I look at Microsoft and 294 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,840 what they tried to do with Mustafa in hiring a top tier 295 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,640 researcher. They had tons of resources. 296 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:51,240 They have not put out a large model. 297 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,640 You look at Meta, they have completely fucked up their whole 298 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:55,360 thing. Grok is out there putting out 299 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:57,880 models that seem to be fairly competitive, if not better than 300 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,640 the rest that's out there. So like, I can't believe I'm 301 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,520 defending Elon in all of this, but like maybe you get a little 302 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,400 Mecca Hitler on the way to doing it. 303 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,640 It's like smart enough, who cares what it's? 304 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,320 I mean, maybe the smart, yeah, it's like, you know, we all have 305 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,280 friends like that, that sometimes they're really smart, 306 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,560 but sometimes they, you know, advocate Mecca Hitler ideology. 307 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,280 I just think about. Your your tanks are all over the 308 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,880 place, no? No, no, I mean, I I'm I'm 309 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,520 obviously joking about Mecca Hitler, but genuinely speaking, 310 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,520 like I think you know what, like Maddie, you said like it 311 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,120 overshadowed like the release of Grok 4, which is maybe true 312 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,680 because Mecca Hitler was very funny, maybe scary, if you're 313 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,080 will Stancil. And also inadvertently led to 314 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,320 Linda Yakarino stepping down, I think in some big parts. 315 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:43,960 So we. We don't know. 316 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,000 We don't know. I haven't read a good story 317 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,280 about it yet. Yeah, it could have. 318 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,640 It could have, I just, I don't know. 319 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,480 I, I, I don't even want to come off as contrarian here. 320 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,800 I just think like what Xai is doing is impressive. 321 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,040 Like in the world where like most labs do not put out very 322 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,640 good models, like they consistently or at least twice 323 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,200 in a row put out something that seemed to matter. 324 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,520 I mean, somebody was commenting that, you know, xai like their 325 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,600 their presentation was like the stuff of engineers. 326 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,840 It just feels like a company that's all engineers, no 327 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,000 philosopher kings, and I would prefer one of the philosopher 328 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,640 king companies win or xai get some scruples. 329 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,040 I mean, what is freedom in the context of a model? 330 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:25,920 You know, I mean, the model has like a point of view, you know 331 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,080 what I mean? What there isn't this sort of no 332 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,160 matter they're going to direct it towards one thing or away 333 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,840 from another. I'm interested in seeing how it 334 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,240 actually is implemented and used by people because if it's like 335 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,040 actually impressive, you know, people shouldn't just discount 336 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,200 all of that because, you know, it seemed to have some post 337 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:45,240 training issues. Right. 338 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,320 I mean, I don't think they will. I mean, first of all, Grok has 339 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,200 this huge advantage of being in front of everybody on X. 340 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,040 So if they have something good, it's it's got the users in a way 341 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,280 that people like Anthropic don't. 342 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,040 Yeah, they also have a great base of text based training data 343 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,240 with all of this, you know, real human text data. 344 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,360 Well, that's clearly where the Nazi shit came from. 345 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,680 I, I will do the classic reporter thing, which is I, I 346 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,040 wrote in a story. I forget if it was my bear case 347 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,040 in opening an eye or what, but I've been pretty bullish on Grok 348 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,200 for a while, despite, you know, being somewhat of an Elon. 349 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:19,400 Testing. I didn't know that. 350 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,080 What's your? What's your argument for that? 351 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,760 What? Was we're just like talking to 352 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,600 investors that they really thought like Grok was going to 353 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,760 catch up. And that like the internal signs 354 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,440 were that they had really good people and that just investors 355 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:35,320 were taking it very seriously in a way that, you know, they still 356 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,960 had to prove to the public. I mean, it's raised a ton of 357 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,720 money, you know, and I, I don't think the people making those 358 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,880 investments are idiots. You know, I think they thought 359 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,440 Elon will catch up, and it seems like he has. 360 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,200 It's always unclear with the Elon investments, right? 361 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,760 Like to a degree, it always feels like it's a little bit of 362 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,520 like, well, if we give Elon money for this maybe idiotic 363 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:55,960 project, we'll get access to space. 364 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,160 But Rock was so much the X AI stuff and Twitter, there's a lot 365 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,000 of money to do it. Also, I think those started to 366 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,319 need to pay off. Those were the ones I think, you 367 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:07,440 know, like Boring Company. Some of those you're like, oh, 368 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:09,359 OK, well, I'll throw them a bone. 369 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:10,640 Hope some of the other ones workout. 370 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,760 But like, I think X AI was one of the ones that needed to 371 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:15,440 workout. You know, it'll be interesting. 372 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,800 What financial machinations he pulls between Tesla and XAI? 373 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:25,119 Think he already said that Tesla would soon start having Grok in 374 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,960 the cars, so I'm sure there's going to be all sorts of self 375 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,040 dealing between these companies. Well, yeah, that's that's kind 376 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,920 of his thing. Which the investors want. 377 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,520 It's like, how do we make sure they all make money like? 378 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,880 Basically it's like, it's like, yeah, yeah, if you could end up, 379 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,240 if you were an ex, you know, Holder and you ended up with 380 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,640 XAI, that's a little bit better. But yeah, if you can somehow 381 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,920 spin this off into Tesla stock or or even better, SpaceX stock, 382 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,720 that would be nice. Well, that's one of the core 383 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,440 reporting questions. I, I think we didn't really ever 384 00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,440 answer was like did X shareholders or XAI shareholders 385 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,680 get a better deal in that merger. 386 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,440 And I think the answer was like on metrics at the time, you 387 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,000 would have said obviously X shareholders, but based on what 388 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,840 you just said and what a lot of people think, like XAI has this 389 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,400 unlimited valuation potential. So you're getting a good deal 390 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,200 getting access to XAI. That said, they don't really 391 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,480 make all that much money, right? Now, right, it's all, I mean, 392 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,760 it's like, but yeah, with Elon, what is making money, you know, 393 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,840 it's like about it's, it's a valuation thing. 394 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,200 So while we're talking about unlimited valuation for for XAI, 395 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,960 guess you guys have been spending a lot of time thinking 396 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,840 about, and I was talking to our colleague Jonathan Weber about 397 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,080 this. Are we in a bubble? 398 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,960 Why now do you think we potentially are in a bubble? 399 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,000 Stocks have been going up for for some time. 400 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,800 Like what's what's particularly bubble like about what's 401 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,200 happening now? I think the biggest thing really 402 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,840 was just the RAMP report that the RAMPS research data put out, 403 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,360 which is of course based, it's a smaller sample size of people, 404 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:01,680 you know, using RAMP and what their customers are spending 405 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,720 money on. But I think there was a 406 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,480 noticeable kind of peak hit in the last month around tool 407 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,800 adoption. And while it's not a bubble, I 408 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,080 would say on AI, it could be a bubble on how much people are 409 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,800 willing to pay for AI tools, especially at the enterprise 410 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,120 level. So while that may not hurt AI 411 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:21,720 overall in the long run, all of these companies that are 412 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,480 building the next big tool for enterprise AI may have been 413 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,680 charging a bit too much. And I mean, we saw that, you 414 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,360 know, with cursor prices going way up and people complaining 415 00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:32,320 and the getting subsequently reversed. 416 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,480 Like it could be just a point where not everyone is willing to 417 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,720 pay for infinite AI anymore if they think it'll get them ahead. 418 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,000 They may want to focus on cost at this point. 419 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,600 Let me take a stab at this. I mean, first of all, newcomer 420 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,840 is not declaring it's a bubble. I think we're pointing out that 421 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,800 there are a couple, an impressionistic take that there 422 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,760 are some things that might raise bubble questions. 1, is this 423 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:00,520 survey from Ramp showing that sort of spending on new AI apps 424 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,760 is going down, right? The number of apps I'm also 425 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,640 interested in sort of core Weave and the infrastructure companies 426 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,280 and the heavy valuations. That those companies have 427 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,280 received you know they've seen a lot of valuation growth and now 428 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,200 people are starting to ask questions about how they account 429 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,160 for things so so yeah I think they're they're cut there's the 430 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,320 sort of highly valued infrastructure players racing 431 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,160 into AI. There's this sort of ramp data 432 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,240 turn. So the, I think there are 433 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,520 questions about things. I think the, the key, the key 434 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,760 point here though, is like you can have like sort of a 435 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,920 correction in one sector, but not necessarily in AI. 436 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,280 Like I, I think the mood could turn against infrastructure 437 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,880 plays like.com era what there was this huge telecom build out 438 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:52,560 that was sort of correct, but they, they did it way too fast 439 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,320 and it wasn't that valuable. And so I think they're going to 440 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,680 be definitely nobody, nobody can test that there will be bubbles 441 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,840 within AI where some pieces of the stack are not that valuable, 442 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,080 but need to exist. People spend a lot of money to 443 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,560 build them and then it turns out they don't get to retain a lot 444 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,600 of the actual profits from AI. So it could be foundation model 445 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,280 companies, it could be infrastructure companies. 446 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,640 But certainly I think there are pieces of this where a lot of 447 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,440 money will be spent and not a lot of money will be sort of 448 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,040 retained by that category. And, and we don't know how 449 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,720 that's going to play out, but it's it's been to the benefit of 450 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,280 everybody who wants to build an AI. 451 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,920 I mean, say, we've also kind of seen this with sort of the 452 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,640 initial chat bot wave, right? Like there was a period of time 453 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,720 where there were all these start-ups coming out with chat 454 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,920 bots, which ultimately kind of just absorbed into a few players 455 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,880 and that wasn't actually monetizable. 456 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,520 And that wasn't the end of chat bots. 457 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,080 That just meant that that frame of how to make money off of AI 458 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,240 with chat bots wasn't going to be the way that everything 459 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,320 became as an individual company or application and had to be 460 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,840 blended into something like an open AI which could provide all 461 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,440 these other services. So I think there certainly will 462 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,720 be winners. It just may not be so stratified 463 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,000 across all these different products. 464 00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:04,680 It's also, if you buy the argument that a lot of the bulls 465 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,760 have on AI that this is like a multi year, you know, 466 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,200 transformational cycle, we're gonna have dips in it, right? 467 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,440 It's just, it's just the nature of it. 468 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,880 Very bullish on AI while saying there's seems like maybe a 469 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,680 bubble right now. Yeah, I'm not even sure where I 470 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,960 fall in it necessarily, but I just don't think we're going to 471 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,800 be see like the peak bubble now. Like I think there's going to 472 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,440 be, it could be a couple years down the line where we see like, 473 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,560 oh, in fact, this did not turn out to be as lucrative as a lot 474 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,240 of the people thought it was going to be. 475 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,080 And the investments were well out of their skis. 476 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:35,760 I'm just not ready to call it now. 477 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:37,880 You know, I just haven't seen enough indication. 478 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,320 Catalyst beside we're over extrapolating from one ramp 479 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,160 survey otherwise, I mean, yeah. Yeah. 480 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,200 Well, there were things that were, well, there were things 481 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,400 that I think caused people to take notice, like, you know, 482 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,360 Microsoft pulling out and kind of rejiggering some of its 483 00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:56,960 leases on data centres, which people for a time were deciding 484 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,920 that meant that they no longer wanted to build data centers, 485 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,040 which just isn't true, May not seem very specific to Microsoft 486 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,320 and its open AI relationship. But people look at those sort of 487 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,000 things and private equity companies that own a lot of the 488 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,800 data center companies may be changing their their leases. 489 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,680 So this has been going on for some time, but I just don't 490 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,800 think like, like you're saying, I just don't think we would have 491 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,480 seen it now. It felt very out of the blue. 492 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,080 Here's Here's what's sort of confusing about this situation. 493 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:26,080 OK. If NVIDIA produces high quality 494 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,680 AI chips at a faster pace like they say they're going to, if 495 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:35,560 they're going to refresh these chips, will that be catalyst to 496 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,120 a bubble bursting or will that be good for AI, right. 497 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:41,840 In some ways, if they update their chips more often, the 498 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,360 infrastructure companies which have spent a lot of money on 499 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:49,240 chips may be miscalculating how valuable that investment is and 500 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,800 may need to spend a lot of money to move on to the next one. 501 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,720 So, but obviously improving technology will be good for what 502 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:03,160 consumers experience in terms of AI, but it could disrupt some of 503 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,040 the infrastructure providers. So these are really sort of 504 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,280 complicated questions in terms of which companies get hit and 505 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,640 which companies do really well. Yeah, totally. 506 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,960 And I think you could see AI being as transformative as a lot 507 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,760 of the bulls expected to be. And NVIDIA takes a hit in in a 508 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,520 different way because there's more competition or because 509 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,040 there doesn't need to be, you know, the next generation of 510 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,320 chips being as expensive as they are, you have real breakthroughs 511 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,760 in terms of efficiency that makes it a better product for 512 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,400 people, more affordable for businesses. 513 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,280 But someone like it, NVIDIA gets its valuation just kind of 514 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,520 decimated. Not predicting that, but I'm 515 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,280 saying like, yeah. Both can be true. 516 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,320 I mean, I'm, I'm very bullish still on what's to be built in 517 00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:45,360 AI in a lot of these start-ups. What we're hearing from people 518 00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:50,240 like to me, I think there's, yeah, it remains my point of 519 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:55,160 view that there's a lot of capability available from the 520 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,160 existing models that people have not figured out how to turn into 521 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,240 products and people are going to turn those into products and 522 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,800 those products will make money. What is not clear to me is if 523 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,520 the foundation models get to keep return all the money they 524 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,120 spent to build up that capability, and whether the 525 00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:14,400 infrastructure companies are properly valued based on 526 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,200 everything they've contributed to creating all that value. 527 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,440 Right. And then, you know, on the 528 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,600 enterprise side of things, like I still think we're not at a 529 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,400 point where businesses are seeing a great amount of benefit 530 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,200 from this technology. They fair indicator they just 531 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,000 haven't figured it out yet. Like I did this panel a month or 532 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,760 so ago with like all these chief data officers at fairly, you 533 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,520 know, old line companies, you know, like a Ford Credit Union 534 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:46,440 or Danone, like the yogurt company and they have the. 535 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,680 Earth business guy now. Well, I mean, I was invited to 536 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,840 do it. You know, I don't, I don't, I 537 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,200 didn't prior to this have a deep relationship with the yogurt 538 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,640 industry. But but, but like, you know, 539 00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:59,720 they all have chief data officers. 540 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:00,840 They all want to figure this thing out. 541 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,160 But none of them, as I could tell, had really gotten like, 542 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,120 oh, we've implemented it in this way and now we've transformed 543 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:08,800 our business across the company to use this. 544 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,320 So they all want to do it. They don't really know how to. 545 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:16,720 And I think the agent buzzword, as exciting of an idea as it is, 546 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,360 I think we are far away from regular enterprises really 547 00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:25,240 implementing agents as sort of employee equivalents that are 548 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,280 running around spending budget making decisions. 549 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,880 And so that conversation, to me is sort of a signal of hype 550 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,520 getting out of control. Yeah. 551 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,960 As a daughter of as a daughter of a lawyer who works in this 552 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,640 kind of space, I can just report back that a lot of these 553 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,680 companies are a little bit risk averse in letting agents run 554 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,760 rampant, even if they are in theory very excited about this. 555 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,840 So I do think it's going to be kind of a multi year adoption 556 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,960 curve on this one, but it could mean that the hype right now is 557 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,320 a little bit too much. So far as I can tell, the 558 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,560 biggest adopters this stuff is like the makers of the 559 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,680 technology themselves who seem to be all about laying people 560 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,960 off in order to like take advantage of the efficiency. 561 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,000 Like Microsoft just laid off like another several 1000 people 562 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,920 and it really seems like were. They middle managers or which? 563 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,040 Which tier were they? Do you know? 564 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,320 They had they had a middle manager layoff a couple months 565 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,320 ago, but this one was mostly in the sales org. 566 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,800 Do you know what percentage? Because I, I, one of my, you 567 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,440 know, the other version of the newcomer podcast is the through 568 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,320 Bull Valley podcast, which we've been recording with Max and 569 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,200 James. And in that we have these 570 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,080 predictions and I think one of mine is that people, a Fortune 571 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,280 500 will attribute layoffs to AI. 572 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,920 So I I'm I'm unfortunately for workers rooting I think for a 573 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,280 mass AI attributed layoff in terms of my prediction becoming 574 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,680 true. Just for just for the the Cal C 575 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,560 bet. Just so I could say I was right, 576 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,360 you know? Yeah, Microsoft was not explicit 577 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:52,400 about it at all, but there were some interesting pieces that 578 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,640 came out afterwards that like in the meeting after they laid off 579 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,000 all their, you know, 50% of the sales team in certain 580 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,480 departments, you know, the head of the unit, the CVP was like, 581 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,840 by the way, you guys should really start using AI more. 582 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,320 It can make your life a lot better. 583 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,160 And so there, you know, I don't we're not quite like the quiet 584 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,240 part out loud, but it seems like we're at least with those 585 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,240 companies like leaning towards that they want to set an 586 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,880 example. Here's how you lay people off 587 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:17,880 when you when you use our products. 588 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,960 Just mood check before we move on to the next subject. 589 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,120 Are you bullish or bearish on AI over the next six months? 590 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,600 Six months. I, I think there's wait. 591 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,080 Oh, it's, it's, I mean, it's gonna continue to grow up to go 592 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:32,600 up. There's no indication that 593 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,440 things are going off a Cliff. All right, same. 594 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,640 We're all bullish in six months, but maybe that means we're all 595 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,000 blind. We're all bought into the hype. 596 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,680 You know the the air comes out at some point. 597 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,520 You got to do better than the ramp data for me to just decide 598 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:45,680 to be bearish though. I agree. 599 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,840 We're that's why this is an impressionistic certain signals 600 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,120 to pay attention to. We're not saying this this thing 601 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,560 is a bubble. All right, the last topic, an 602 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,160 exciting one. Spicy. 603 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,480 Complaining about tweets, Tom, you're all fired up about this. 604 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,800 Somehow. You are OK with Mecca Hitler, 605 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,960 but you're can't stomach Sequoia's Sean McGuire. 606 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,960 I can't, I can't deal with Sequoia, his earnest. 607 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:14,000 Political has political views. Sean McGuire is the guy I don't 608 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,400 know personally. I have, you know, I've met many 609 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,320 Sequoia partners. I've gone to the Sequoia spring 610 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,560 mixers and fall mixers and there's quite a lot of people 611 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:26,760 there that I like. I don't think Sean McGuire is 612 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,080 oh, I'm sorry, let me, let me before we get into that. 613 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,360 He has been going off on Twitter for about two years almost, 614 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,360 mostly with his hardline right wing, pro Israel politics. 615 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,800 He likes to make people mad. This is very exciting to him. 616 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,960 He really got into hot water, so to speak, over the 4th of July 617 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,680 weekend when he, after the story in the New York Times about 618 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,520 Zaran Mamdani maybe being misleading on his Columbia 619 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,720 application, Sean goes out there and says, you know, Mamdani is a 620 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,920 liar because he's an Islamist. And this is culturally baked 621 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,640 into what Islamists do. And then people got mad because 622 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,040 it really sounded like he was saying all Muslims are liars, 623 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,400 culturally speaking. And then he goes out and says 624 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,000 that's not true. I wasn't talking about all 625 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,640 Islamists. They're all, all Muslims talking 626 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,720 about Islamists. And then that became a whole 627 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,000 conversation about what it means to be and whether or not Sean is 628 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,520 a racist. And I don't really know. 629 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,720 And Bill Ackman and people have rallied around. 630 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,600 Sean was offense. I saw Josh Wolf also rallying to 631 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,040 his defense. Too Josh Wolf. 632 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,400 There was a petition of people condemning Sean. 633 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,920 There was a counter petition of people supporting Sean with 634 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,520 signatures from all walks of this world. 635 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,680 We we, we're not cancelling Sean McGuire that that is that is 636 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,720 we're being very clear. And I think you you do a good 637 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,600 job of pointing this out, Tom. But like, yeah, the one thing 638 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,840 everybody in Silicon Valley can agree on is no more 639 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,840 cancellations. And we're we're we're sticking 640 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,720 to that Armistice. Like we're not trying. 641 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,600 Nobody on this podcast is trying to cancel Sean McGuire. 642 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,840 Yeah, the idea of someone losing their job because of their 643 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,360 opinions in general, I'm, I'm generally against it. 644 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,400 I think that's not a great thing for societies to have happen. 645 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:14,240 I wouldn't advocate for it, I don't think, Sean. 646 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,160 So OK, before I get into my personal opinion, I listen to a 647 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,600 podcast interview Sean McGuire did with Jack Altman. 648 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,960 Second time he's come up on this episode when which he talked 649 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,520 about his decision to kind of come out as an opinion haver and 650 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,320 talk about all of his right wing politics. 651 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,200 And he was saying after October 7th, you know, and he Sean was 652 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,840 pulling from his history. I think he worked for the DoD. 653 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,720 He understands information warfare and the way that 654 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,520 misinformation can be spread online. 655 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,080 It was extremely important for him to start talking about his 656 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,880 politics and he even said on this podcast on that, on that 657 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,800 episode, I'd be willing to die for, you know, for the things 658 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,360 that I believe and I don't advocate for that at all. 659 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,480 That would be awful. I don't really think the things 660 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,880 that Sean is saying are necessary to say. 661 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,440 I don't really think. And he has a pretty large 662 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,800 platform. He has 250,000 followers. 663 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,840 He really thinks that he is putting important stuff into the 664 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,880 discourse based on that podcast and the fact that he keeps going 665 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,960 on about this stuff. And this is very common now 666 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,640 within Silicon Valley. Oh, it's very common. 667 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,160 There are certain VCs that have decided that their platform and 668 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,720 their takes are so important that they want to build a whole 669 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,280 media empire around it. And we've got, you know, the 670 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,720 best version of that is the all in guys who have built an 671 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,880 actually successful show with their takes on things. 672 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,400 Mike Solana, who I also don't know, he's not really an 673 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,080 investor, but he's in, you know, he's obviously in the VC world. 674 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:33,640 He's got. CMO. 675 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,360 Yeah, yeah. He's not AVC, but but you know, 676 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:37,400 whatever he's he's in that world. 677 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,520 He built Pirate wires, which is like actually an interesting 678 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,840 publication. And I and I totally give him 679 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,960 credit for all of that. You're basically saying, Sean, 680 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,480 if you're gonna make us listen to you constantly, these, you 681 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:49,600 need to be a little more creative. 682 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,400 It can't just be like have. Something interesting to say. 683 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,400 Like yes, have something. More interesting to say than 684 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,400 just like what I. Find racially tinged things that 685 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,760 get everybody into fury. It's sort of like the lowest 686 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,560 common denominator way to get people. 687 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,200 To right, It's a hack. It's a hack to get people to to 688 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,120 to think that you're interesting because you're saying stuff 689 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,240 that's kind of pushing the envelope in a racial way and, 690 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,400 or, or whatever way and culture of a bigoted way. 691 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,800 And I just think if it's that important to you, Sean, that you 692 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,320 really want to like be flooding those of us who want to maybe 693 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,040 see your takes on other things, you know, within the the tech 694 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,960 world, talk about your politics, start up a sub stack, like let's 695 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,880 just see how interesting your views really are. 696 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,120 Like build up a little media empire around you and see if 697 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,120 people actually care. Because he believes in all sorts 698 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:32,960 of conspiracies too. He's like. 699 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,720 Yeah, he does have his election denier stuff. 700 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,000 I mean, I guess I could just be furthering your take, Tom, with 701 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,760 this. I first of all, clearly it 702 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,160 hasn't affected Sequoia's brand standing at all. 703 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,000 So anyone who's concerned about cancellation, the attendant, you 704 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,240 don't think so? I. 705 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,280 Think it hurts the brand a little bit or like it's looms so 706 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,720 large in terms of what Sequoia's brand is like. 707 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:01,160 I think of Sequoia again, I don't wanna go after Sean or 708 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,520 have them tell him to stop, but I do think just from a brand 709 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,880 perspective, it's one of the loudest parts of their brand 710 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,840 right now. But I think they're still really 711 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,920 regarded as, yeah, I think they're still, I think the 712 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,560 results is overwhelmingly supersedes this. 713 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,600 Like I really don't think it's hurt at all. 714 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,760 And I think if you're kind of in the ecosystem, especially where 715 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,360 maybe you hold some of these views too, or you're like a 716 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,679 little bit enjoying the kind of vocal trolley posture, which I 717 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:32,560 will say is kind of a case for a lot of people in certain sectors 718 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,480 and different industries. Like it could be a value add for 719 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:36,800 you. You could be like signaling 720 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,679 like, hey, we don't care. People think we just want the 721 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:40,719 returns. And so I don't think it hurts 722 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,840 them really at all. And so, yeah, let me. 723 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,040 Make a couple quick points. I mean, 1, you know, being close 724 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,199 to Elon and being in having somebody in this sort of 725 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:54,280 conservative troll world gets you a certain contingent of 726 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,280 people. And so if Sequoia can get away 727 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,480 with, OK, we're the normie guys, but we also are friendly with 728 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,960 Elon world, you know, that's, that's there's a financial play 729 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:06,280 there. And I think that's part of 730 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,400 what's going on. The other thing I just want to 731 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,880 say on this conversation is that, like, kudos to Amjad, the 732 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,640 CEO of Replit, I'll put it that way. 733 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:20,560 I mean, he's been very bold in, you know, voicing unpopular 734 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,600 opinions. And I think Sean represents 735 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,760 himself as like articulating this sort of like, I don't know, 736 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:30,080 out of consensus point of view. Well, but Amjad is an 737 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,960 interesting case here because, you know, he went on Joe Rogan a 738 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,440 couple of weeks ago, talked about all, all kinds of things. 739 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,960 But, you know, within that he talked about, you know, his 740 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,200 being of Palestinian descent and he's Jordanian. 741 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,200 And he was like, yeah, it's not easy being, you know, one of the 742 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,880 few people in Silicon Valley willing to speak up, you know, 743 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,560 speak out against Israel and and for the Palestinian. 744 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:52,920 Yeah, right. Paul Graham is an interesting 745 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,960 case and all of that, but it feels more personal with Amjad. 746 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,000 And he's gotten into it a little bit with Sean on X. 747 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,640 And Sean completely took out of context something that Amjad had 748 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,280 said and cut off the date and like a Washington Post article 749 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,720 so that he could claim that what he had said on Rogan was 750 00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:11,800 inaccurate. And you know, that's standard 751 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,640 trollish behavior on on she's part like he was trying to get a 752 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,520 rise out of people. I don't even think I'm John. 753 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,920 Is that honestly, like, you know, the politics that he was 754 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,680 describing on Rogan doesn't even really conform with like the 755 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,560 most leftist stuff. He was talking about two state 756 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,480 solutions. He was, you know, like I I care 757 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,280 a lot about what happens to the Israeli people. 758 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,440 I mean, that kind of stuff would not actually, you know, get 759 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,800 endear you too much to the left. Sure. 760 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,760 But the stuff you're hearing on tech Twitter right now is like, 761 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,240 just like, let's send every weapon we have over to Israel 762 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,160 and like, let let the chips fall. 763 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,280 They may. Sure, Joe Lonsdale is probably 764 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,880 the extreme version of that. And and like, I don't know, I 765 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,760 should be interested in your take, Eric, but like Sequoia, 766 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,360 you know, with Doug Leone as the head of the firm also like 767 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,560 fairly well known conservative like as the firm, they certainly 768 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:00,200 if you want to look at the personality. 769 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,640 They had Doug Leone and they had Mike Moritz, both really strong 770 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,440 investors, opposite sides of the political spectrum. 771 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,000 Clearly Doug Leone won. I mean, Moritz isn't even part 772 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,000 of the firm anymore. And it seems like that ideology 773 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,320 is 1. I mean, I, I Rudolf doesn't talk 774 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,640 about his politics a ton, but my sense is he's on the more 775 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,280 conservative side of things. And so yeah, I don't, I don't 776 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:28,320 see who the beacon of liberal or left wing thought of, at least 777 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,400 publicly as Sequoia is right now. 778 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,640 And does do you think Doug being there gives Sean a lot more 779 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,280 cover to be able to to say the stuff that he does? 780 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,520 I mean, my first piece for the newsletter was about, you know, 781 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:41,720 him being a Trump watching conservative. 782 00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:46,440 It was about China and about how this what the circle the center 783 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,440 could not hold with Sequoia having China while having anti 784 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,760 China sort of anyway, I was I was right that China spun out. 785 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,360 But anyway, that was my first piece and it, it talked about 786 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,120 how Doug Leone was a big Trumper. 787 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,440 And so, yeah, I, I mean, Doug's not in charge anymore, but he's 788 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,160 still around the firm. And I think that the fact that 789 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,040 if if Sean was so out of step with the rest of Sequoia, it 790 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,280 wouldn't last. Yeah, but he also kind of wants 791 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,320 to be maybe fired a little bit, a little bit like, I mean, look, 792 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,240 he I don't know, I, I, I mean, on that podcast he talked about 793 00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,160 the fact that, you know, he's independently wealthy now 794 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,840 because he had sold the company earlier. 795 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,240 So he has a lot of money. So he's able to, you know, take 796 00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:33,040 these risks, these risks with his, with his opinions. 797 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,440 And then, you know, he changed his Twitter bio or his ex bio 798 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,200 for a bit to say like Sequoia partner in parentheses for now. 799 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,800 Like he's he's certainly baiting people to to and, you know, he 800 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,840 talked about how the the petition, you know, was was 801 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,320 another example of cancel culture. 802 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,640 And these people love to be, you know, victims before the fact. 803 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,080 So yeah, I don't know if like I don't, I don't even talk to 804 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:58,360 Sean. I don't know. 805 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,120 Why? It would it would play into his 806 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,200 martyr. This Islam is narrative Muslim 807 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:08,120 distinction like why? Why, why why say something 808 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,160 that's so easily misinterpreted? I guess is my my issue here. 809 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,520 Because he's a troll, right? And I hate that kind of 810 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,680 communication. I just like I, at my core, want 811 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:23,600 to speak sort of earnestly and openly and say be heard as I'm 812 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,240 what I'm intending to say, you know? 813 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,280 And I feel like he's trying to hack engagement. 814 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,520 And that is what I object to. Right, right. 815 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:34,800 No. And that was sort of the point 816 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,560 of my column is, is I don't even really deal with the specifics 817 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,440 of what he's saying and interrogating the logic. 818 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:40,640 I mean, that's a whole other thing. 819 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:45,120 But like, he is kind of claiming that he is on this holy war to 820 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,160 put his opinions out there because it's extremely 821 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,320 necessary. And in fact, I don't think these 822 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,360 opinions are that surprising. I don't think they're all that 823 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,400 necessary. And he's hacking the system 824 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,040 anyway to get them out there. Like he's not really saying. 825 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,320 And he's friends with the guy who runs the platform, the guy 826 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,640 who's shifting his own AI to bring this full circle to sound. 827 00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:04,880 More like him, you know? It's like, oh, I could be one of 828 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,280 the voices that says the things that Elon wants me to say, you 829 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:09,840 know? Yeah, there, there are certain 830 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,440 people there, there are certain people who I think have been 831 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:17,240 elevated by the Elon, you know, Elon era Twitter and the 4U page 832 00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:20,360 and the algorithm and it's like Sean McGuire is one of them. 833 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,880 So also is the die work wear guy but but you know different 834 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,960 different sides of the. I mean, one of the most iconic 835 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,280 things that has been said on this podcast is Ben Smith saying 836 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,720 we're all in the courts of billionaires. 837 00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:35,800 And I think that theme has continued to play out. 838 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,920 And yeah, Sean Mcguire's in the court of Elon Musk. 839 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,120 Right. And, and, and benefited from it 840 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,000 in lots of ways financially and also like in this little mini 841 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,840 unimpressive media thing that he's put together. 842 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,080 But we are not cancelling you, Sean. 843 00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:51,880 Keep tweeting. Godspeed. 844 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,480 Just make him less hate, more more thought. 845 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,480 Well, he's not hateful only towards Islamofascists or 846 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,960 Islamists those who can hate which. 847 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,320 Which it is offensive. It is offensive to say that 848 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,920 Mamdani is an Islamist. Like there, there's nothing 849 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,280 there's. It's like he's a normal mayoral 850 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,080 candidate. Like I feel like we can't let 851 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,080 that part of it slip by. Like it's just like. 852 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,720 That point like it is just blatantly false. 853 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,520 Also, it's very it's, it's just, I don't want to let that slide. 854 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,440 Have you done the research though, Madeleine? 855 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,080 Have you done done the research? I'm familiar with who his father 856 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,760 is, is a professor at Columbia. I'm, I will just say I don't 857 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,320 think that Zoran Mamdani is an Islamist and there's no evidence 858 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,400 to that to be supported and to say that is inherently 859 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,280 inflammatory. Correct me if I'm wrong, by the 860 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,280 way. As the non New Yorker over as 861 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,080 the as the non New Yorker on this pod, as the non New Yorker 862 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,000 on this podcast, He didn't even really run on like he didn't run 863 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:53,520 like an identitarian campaign. Right now that's all the right 864 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,960 wing effort now is to basically say you were misled like this 865 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,360 happy go lucky campaign that you saw. 866 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,560 That's not who he really is. It's all bullshit. 867 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,840 I'm sorry he ran a campaign on affordability. 868 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,160 But anyway. I feel like the substance of it 869 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:08,920 matters, you know, not just the optics. 870 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,640 Anyway, that's our episode. We'll see you next week. 871 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,920 Thanks for listening. See you next week with Sean 872 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,720 McGuire Co hosting and I'm. Sure. 873 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:18,400 There you put that on to the world. 874 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,840 There's some percentage. Is Brock still too woke next 875 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,120 week? All right, see ya. 876 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:25,000 Bye.