1 00:00:05,900 --> 00:00:15,300 Welcome Sally. Hey everybody it's Eric newcomer 2 00:00:15,300 --> 00:00:18,100 here with Tom Dayton. We've got guests. 3 00:00:18,100 --> 00:00:21,300 We've been trying to get on the show for a while. 4 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:26,500 Taylor Lorenz is here, she has a new one of her stories where she 5 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,000 smartly put has a word. That maybe like one percent of 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,500 the population knows and then blast it out to the readers of 7 00:00:37,500 --> 00:00:41,500 the mainstream media. Now, her latest is Nim, sell 8 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:49,200 famous for propagating to Gigi before, and I'll let her tell us 9 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,600 the back story on this story in a second. 10 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:54,500 I also have to say Taylor is like I've experienced. 11 00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:58,300 I've seen other people say this on Twitter, but is genuinely 12 00:00:58,300 --> 00:01:02,100 amazing at seeing new Cool things, take off the ground. 13 00:01:02,100 --> 00:01:05,099 I feel like as soon as I announced, my sub Stacks using 14 00:01:05,099 --> 00:01:08,600 my DMs like excited about it. Like giving me audience, which I 15 00:01:08,607 --> 00:01:10,500 can see sort of having experienced it. 16 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:14,400 Firsthand how important it is to a Creator when somebody like 17 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:18,700 especially sort of a kingmaker, you know, Creator reporter says 18 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:20,900 oh this is interesting. I'm going to follow this from 19 00:01:20,900 --> 00:01:23,800 the beginning, so before we get into, Nims, on all that, like 20 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,300 what is your strategy? And don't talk about me. 21 00:01:26,300 --> 00:01:28,600 Because I'm, that was two complementary of myself. 22 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,800 But how do you, how do you sort of like, And I ball things on 23 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,900 the come up or what's your sort of or you just like talking to 24 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:37,600 everybody or like, what's your strategy for watching this 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,600 stuff? Yeah, I just kind of like 26 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,100 consume as much as possible and I just kind of spend all day 27 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:46,900 absorbing content finding new people. 28 00:01:46,900 --> 00:01:49,900 I love to go down rabbit holes and kind of finding, you know, 29 00:01:49,900 --> 00:01:52,700 interesting new people to talk to in all different types of 30 00:01:52,700 --> 00:01:56,000 sort of tech, industries and content creators. 31 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,800 I'm a big supporter of Independent Media and believer 32 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,300 and Independent Media. So You know, I anytime I see 33 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:05,900 like a new content creator entered the new space, that's 34 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:09,100 really exciting for me, you know, I think if I had started 35 00:02:09,100 --> 00:02:11,800 later in my career, I probably would have gone that route by 36 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:13,900 self. Maybe we'll do it one day but 37 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,000 it's so hard. I don't know. 38 00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:18,500 I'm gonna it's kind of nice to have you know Healthcare. 39 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,000 I will everybody stop stack World wonder is like, on some 40 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,900 level. You're the natural, you know, 41 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:26,200 independent. I know he was always trying to 42 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:30,200 get me to do that. Sometimes what I really I mean, 43 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:33,800 my whole like stick is just trying to get the mainstream 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,100 audience to care and to kind of understand the world. 45 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:42,100 The way that I feel like I see it online every day and so I 46 00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:46,500 kind of you know I like writing for a more you know Boomer. 47 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,700 Like if I'm going to stay up all night reading Twitter they the 48 00:02:51,700 --> 00:02:55,500 world at least needs to understand what's happening on 49 00:02:55,500 --> 00:02:56,900 it. Well, the description I always I 50 00:02:56,900 --> 00:03:00,200 always kind of have a view Taylor is is that you know and 51 00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:02,400 Easy on people probably use is that you're like the great 52 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,600 chronicler of Internet culture of our age. 53 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,200 But then I always think that's a bit of a lazy way to describe it 54 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,600 because there really is no defining line between internet 55 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,300 culture, and culture, more broadly. 56 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:16,600 And so to kind of segment the to in saying, you know, one is 57 00:03:16,900 --> 00:03:19,300 siphoned off into a certain group of people or listeners 58 00:03:19,300 --> 00:03:22,100 just doesn't really explain what's happened over the last 59 00:03:22,100 --> 00:03:26,500 couple of decades and so actually yeah I'm expanding what 60 00:03:26,500 --> 00:03:29,400 I think of your Horizon and as like an example of this since 61 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,800 we're all just about implementing each other is is 62 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,000 you know as a sign of you know the crossover. 63 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,600 I have some friends that I'm in a book club with and the 64 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,400 information wrote a profile of you. 65 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,000 This is a couple of months ago and they were like oh can you 66 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,200 send me that Taylor profile that was in the information? 67 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,400 And I was like, well when I don't work there anymore to 68 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,400 yeah, sure. This was from people that don't 69 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,400 work in Tech. And so, I think, kind of, the 70 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,200 great thing about internet culture reporting as you sort of 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,800 approached, it is that you've shown the Check that it has 72 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,100 beyond that and people do care beyond those that are you know 73 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,800 it's a dated term now but like extremely online. 74 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,300 Oh, I've written well, extremely online is the title of my book 75 00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:17,100 coming out next year from 70. But yeah, I mean, I wrote a 76 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:20,600 piece on that crypto book schedules, right? 77 00:04:21,100 --> 00:04:22,900 Don't get me. Started on years for these 78 00:04:22,900 --> 00:04:26,800 things to reach the light, but, no, I wrote a piece on that 79 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,600 platform, mirror, that was like some crypto blogging platform, 80 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,700 but I wrote About kind of how I hate the term internet culture 81 00:04:32,700 --> 00:04:34,900 so much and I do use it sometimes because it is 82 00:04:34,900 --> 00:04:37,700 effective shorthand. But yeah I mean I just think the 83 00:04:37,700 --> 00:04:41,000 internet is is our lives and world only getting more and more 84 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,800 you know, it's sort of embedded within it. 85 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,900 So yeah, I consider what I cover very mainstream culture and I 86 00:04:46,900 --> 00:04:51,000 think it's a window into what the world will be like, right? 87 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,900 So I like yeah, I like to cover shifts and in that and obviously 88 00:04:54,900 --> 00:04:57,600 covered the Creator world really early and have stayed on that. 89 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,200 And I just it's fun and exciting. 90 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:04,500 Cover and kind of like as a as a media nerd myself and attacked 91 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:07,000 lover, like it's, you know, there's just so much happening 92 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,500 in the space and there's so much to cover and I like to cover it 93 00:05:09,500 --> 00:05:13,800 in a way that gets helps people kind of understand shifts that 94 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,500 are happening in Tech media culture, but in an accessible 95 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:20,200 way, you know, or in a knot in a condescending way, he's one of 96 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,900 your strategies for engaging audiences. 97 00:05:22,900 --> 00:05:27,300 Now, finding a single word or like we have qg, we have new. 98 00:05:27,300 --> 00:05:29,500 So is there another story that fits in there? 99 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,800 I thought about writing about that, I, you know, there's so 100 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,800 many things I don't, you know, I do I like to write about 101 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,300 language especially, I mean I don't know if you read it not 102 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:49,900 piece about nature at micro celebrities but like I wrote 103 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:52,300 this whole history of the word Creator itself, which I've also 104 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:59,400 written about. I wrote, I love there's this 105 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,800 great book called Has internet by this linguist named Gretchen 106 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,000 McCulloch who wrote about how the internet has impacted 107 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,800 language. And I just think that the words 108 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,900 that we use in the phrases that we use to describe the world 109 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:13,100 around. Us can often reveal really 110 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:15,700 interesting shifts in Tech culture. 111 00:06:15,700 --> 00:06:18,700 Whatever. And so I like, I like doing 112 00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:22,200 those stories because I think they're kind of just like using 113 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:26,900 a phrase or a word as a peg to talk about some broader shift. 114 00:06:26,900 --> 00:06:28,600 All right? This is classic for this podcast 115 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,100 where we talk around the subject before. 116 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,500 Telling people what we're actually so Niche, internet 117 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:37,900 micro celebrity name cell, give us the like, you know, 60 118 00:06:37,900 --> 00:06:40,900 seconds feel like how did you get onto this story? 119 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:43,100 What is it? I was so late to the story. 120 00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:44,800 I meant to write about it since last spring. 121 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,200 It's like one of those ones has been on my list for ever. 122 00:06:47,500 --> 00:06:49,900 And then I and then I finally wrote a huge condemnation of the 123 00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:57,200 other people on the beach and they didn't do no one on this. 124 00:06:57,700 --> 00:07:00,100 Just to be clear. It's such a crazy. 125 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:05,400 Like there's almost no one on it and it's I think that it's super 126 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,900 under resource for every place has like the one person that 127 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:10,400 covers everything and you know we all cover things from 128 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:15,700 different lenses and so I know I love everyone on my beat and 129 00:07:16,300 --> 00:07:18,800 none of us have time to get to all the stories that we want to 130 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,200 get to. There could be a hundred more 131 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,700 reporters on the beat and they'd still be so many great Scoops to 132 00:07:22,700 --> 00:07:25,200 get out but yeah, I would himself anyway. 133 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:31,400 I know one of her like she's never going to let you Like slot 134 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,400 like sniping. No, I would never I don't know 135 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,000 if you that are on your behind and they're great. 136 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,000 I am on it to honestly I mean he gets to the story that I wrote 137 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,300 later but yes, the so many people. 138 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:48,100 Well, when will, you know it kind of it was it was VidCon 139 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:50,300 that really made me want to write about this and I think it 140 00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:53,100 was Amanda Pirelli or somebody at Business Insider rotary 141 00:07:53,100 --> 00:07:56,100 competed. Khan is this, it causes it. 142 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,700 Yeah. Online convention, for, for 143 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,800 online video stars. Kind of that whole industry like 144 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,800 the influencers Comic-Con, you can think of it like that. 145 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,200 And this year was the first year that Tick Tock was the title 146 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:09,900 sponsor. YouTube has sponsored it for 10 147 00:08:09,900 --> 00:08:12,700 years and really pioneered it and tick tock tick over. 148 00:08:12,700 --> 00:08:14,900 And one thing I noticed is just kind of like the way that Fame 149 00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:18,900 has shifted like early VidCon and you know previous vidcon's 150 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:21,500 that I was at sort of more towards the beginning like you 151 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:24,000 could get all of the famous people on the internet into a 152 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,800 room. And now I just think we live in 153 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,100 such a networked world. There's that famous post of like 154 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:31,700 we're all going to be famous too. 100 people and it's very 155 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:33,799 true. Like, there's a lot more. 156 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,400 Well, the term that I wrote about is like Niche, internet 157 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,100 micro celebrities, which is a very tongue-in-cheek term to 158 00:08:39,100 --> 00:08:42,100 call yourself and himself. But it speaks to this thing of 159 00:08:42,100 --> 00:08:46,000 like micro Fame and sort of like being known to people, but that 160 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,500 doesn't necessarily mean commercial success or like, fame 161 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:51,500 fame. You know what I mean? 162 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:54,400 Like, a lot of it's just knowing I'll tell us about the lead. 163 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,300 You had sort of a lead character who is super compelling price 164 00:08:57,300 --> 00:08:59,400 woman. Yes, one of my favorite Nimbus 165 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,300 Al's. So Bryce is this guy in South 166 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:07,700 Dakota that just had like he's like The Unofficial mayor of 167 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:09,900 Sioux Falls. And he just has like designated 168 00:09:09,900 --> 00:09:13,100 as such by the mayor actually doesn't need to him as The 169 00:09:13,100 --> 00:09:16,400 Unofficial mayor. He just has this loud and fun 170 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,800 internet personality. That kind of everyone in that 171 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,000 area, five thousand Twitter followers. 172 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,500 So the key here is that deep deep in that world known by sort 173 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:28,800 of the key people, but then it's sort of a tiny following 174 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,700 somebody called it like context. July's micro thing in a 175 00:09:31,708 --> 00:09:34,500 different era and I wonder if this is some of the pushback, if 176 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:37,900 there has been on this piece is that it's the concept of a local 177 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:40,400 celebrity, right. I mean the idea that if you live 178 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,800 in a town, like I grew up in a Suburban town, the guy that 179 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,200 worked at Subway Del everybody knew about Dell and like he was 180 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,400 kind of like a joke that we all had in high school of like, oh 181 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,700 yeah, you're gonna go hang out with Dell later and that meant I 182 00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:53,600 go in a Subway. So that sort of thing has 183 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,400 existed for. I mean, probably hundreds of 184 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,900 years but it sounds to me like what you're getting at in this 185 00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:02,000 piece, is there something in terms of Being online and 186 00:10:02,300 --> 00:10:04,300 connecting to, you know, communities, that are not 187 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:07,900 physically where you are, that changes, the kind of nature of 188 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:10,100 this kind of celebrity. Yeah, exactly. 189 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:13,600 So the big difference now is that it's not localized like 190 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,100 these. I mean, of course, it is a very 191 00:10:15,100 --> 00:10:17,100 local thing right there. Tons of local people like that. 192 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:19,100 Like you said that I think are kind of like the Online 193 00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:21,100 Evolution of those types of people. 194 00:10:21,500 --> 00:10:25,200 And then you have like just, you know, the most Niche internet 195 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,000 micro celebrities for every little random thing, right? 196 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,400 Like a really popular Facebook group or like a chip Person 197 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,000 that's really into chips or whatever like or they're just 198 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,200 really known for their like, weird Tick-Tock lives and they 199 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,700 only have 10,000 followers like but they're very known to people 200 00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:41,800 that kind of vibe with them or care about what they are posting 201 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,900 about. Like, in terms of the topic, 202 00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:47,000 it's just about sort of how famous becoming more distributed 203 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,200 I guess. And there's less likely internet 204 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,500 a-lister. I mean, I joked online on 205 00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:53,900 Twitter that I was in nam cell that monetizes. 206 00:10:53,900 --> 00:10:57,800 Well, there's a level that that's not really true, I mean, 207 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,700 but it gets it is sort of question in the Use which is 208 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:05,900 like do Nim cells monetize or like the sort of being the, the 209 00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:08,800 sort of sense that you're like, an influencer or this small 210 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,900 micro celebrity, but you're not really making money off of it. 211 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:14,500 Or how did you try to draw that line or how do you think about 212 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:17,000 him? Well, so, you know, I think 213 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,400 influencer is this, like, capitalistic notion where they 214 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,300 used to be like, oh you got an online following your an 215 00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:25,200 influencer, but these people are not influencers and sense that 216 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,000 like they're not looking to Brand themselves, they're not 217 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,900 looking to have that broader cultural impact. 218 00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:33,200 Of them really have that broader relevance outside their own 219 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,800 Niche, social group, they're just kind of known. 220 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:40,500 So I think like not being able to monetize is is the story of a 221 00:11:40,508 --> 00:11:42,400 lot of these people because their audiences are too small 222 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,500 and they're not really going into it for that goal so they 223 00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:47,800 say it's yeah exactly. That make it a little bigger. 224 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,100 Maybe try to pose is certainly to not want to monetize and 225 00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:53,700 then, you know, someday your top selling TJ. 226 00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:56,000 If at first, you strike out with the Brand's, you might as well. 227 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,700 Reposition yourself as a name cell. 228 00:11:57,700 --> 00:12:01,200 I do this, I purely cynical but there has to be a Of people that 229 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,400 kind of like didn't quite make the cut in terms of number of 230 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,000 audience that you need to be relevant to Brands and they're 231 00:12:07,008 --> 00:12:11,100 just like actually you know what I really was going for Niche 232 00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:12,800 internet. My yes a lot of them do is like 233 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,300 pivot it into careers in XYZ right. 234 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:18,400 Like you're known Melissa McDevitt you know like known as 235 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,900 this kind of like Nation are at Microsoft ever T in the tech 236 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:25,100 world for sounding this Facebook group, used it to get a job. 237 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:26,900 I think she worked at Google or something like that. 238 00:12:26,900 --> 00:12:30,000 So it's a good way to like, kind of get attention and use that. 239 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:32,700 Attention. Okay, this part got cut from my 240 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:33,600 story. I'm going to give you the 241 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,600 highlights because it was way too Niche, Media stuff. 242 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,700 I think the media then part of like a lot of sometimes I write 243 00:12:40,700 --> 00:12:43,300 pieces because I'm just so annoyed by how like bad media 244 00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:46,400 coverage elsewhere. I think certain Publications in 245 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:51,000 New York cannot distinguish between a niche in and at micro 246 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,700 celebrity in their own little media. 247 00:12:52,700 --> 00:12:56,600 Jason universe and an actual influencer AKA everyone in Times 248 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,100 Square. So this is a long day. 249 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:02,700 Ugly. He's we actually mentioned sort 250 00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:05,800 of you criticizing the obsession over dime Square out another 251 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,400 episode. Axford, it's not like no hate to 252 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,400 them but like let's not act like these people have any kind of 253 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,100 broader cultural relevance and I think like that and again, zero 254 00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:17,800 hate to them. I just think, like the way, the 255 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,700 media covers it is like you see these Legacy Publications, want 256 00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:25,500 to cover online culture. But they don't have an 257 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:28,100 understanding of the nuances of the internet enough to like 258 00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:31,700 recognize like WhatsApp. Actually culturally relevant. 259 00:13:31,700 --> 00:13:35,300 I pushed back, you know, was just the like Old Guard media, 260 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,500 my imagination. By the way, I work for Old Guard 261 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:39,100 me. Yes, I'm like you know, I don't 262 00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:43,400 have it but just like media, Prius like there was a sense 263 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,900 that like, whatever the media talked about was sort of like, 264 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:49,500 what people were chattering about and sometimes it was sort 265 00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:52,400 of elitist and like, it's not like they're running a poll of 266 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,200 the country and saying, like, what is that on? 267 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:59,300 Everybody's Miller like a snake. The thing is, is that now I'm 268 00:13:59,300 --> 00:14:01,300 used to always being Like what is a trend? 269 00:14:01,300 --> 00:14:03,800 A trend is something that your editors kids started talking 270 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,300 exactly. But no, but you guys, this is my 271 00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:10,500 whole thing is the past 15 years have been about dismantling that 272 00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:13,900 and so I think we just see right like the New York Times, you 273 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:16,600 know, style section think as a long and I work there, I love 274 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:17,500 it. No hate. 275 00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:19,800 But like, you know, the definitely I'm sure in the 90s 276 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,300 was publishing some crazy stuff. The point is, is now that now we 277 00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:27,900 see how out of touch specific coverage is and it's so like, 278 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,900 you know, it's so it's so kind of transparent. 279 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,300 So, I think if you write about culture and use continued to 280 00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:37,900 write in that 90s style, without acknowledging the Internet, it's 281 00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:39,400 like, we can see the numbers, right. 282 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,000 We can see those following. We can see cultural relevance. 283 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,600 So clearly that it's just, it's just out of touch. 284 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,900 Do you think some reader to me, some readers? 285 00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:50,900 Miss that, like, well, of course, really understand that. 286 00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:53,000 And that's your leading people to be misinformed. 287 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,400 Like, even you see sub sex? Even really like, I was 288 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,200 Googling. So I think like, some of these 289 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,900 subjects are talking about Times Square like people want like a 290 00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:02,400 No one step stick is talking about it. 291 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,600 He covers it relentlessly, which is fun. 292 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,700 I, and by the way, again, I'm not saying don't cover the niche 293 00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:09,100 internet, my properties. Okay. 294 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:11,000 I love covering these people. You literally just wrote an 295 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,600 article about just admit that they're like, you know, five 296 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,200 people care. So, important to contextualize 297 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,400 did not act like that is the monoculture are because it's not 298 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,500 right. But what is the monoculture now? 299 00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:24,300 I mean that's what's so interesting about, you know, the 300 00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:27,200 internet as an audience is that it's literally worldwide. 301 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,200 And so like podcasting is so interesting to me about It 302 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,800 because you can have podcast that have a hundred thousand 303 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,900 listeners that I would bet. Most of my friends have never 304 00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:38,100 heard of I, you said, what is internet monoculture? 305 00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:40,900 There is still right. There is still mass culture on 306 00:15:40,900 --> 00:15:43,400 the internet. There are still people that rise 307 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,100 from the internet, especially in music and entertainment, right? 308 00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:49,200 That are that that are mainstream Lucas. 309 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,700 Shock keeps a list of them, I think you, you know. 310 00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:56,200 But I mean, like, look at the rise of like, so many pop 311 00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,300 artists are constantly like, and a lot of celebrities are, you 312 00:15:59,308 --> 00:16:01,600 know, you could look at People like Addison Ray or some of 313 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,600 these like internet, you know, famous. 314 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,000 I know she's probably dropped out popped off but like, you 315 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,800 know, she's putting, you know, definitely 2019, 2020. 316 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,600 We're arguing about our parents. Like, it's, it isn't me like 317 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,100 what Joe Rogan, you know? There's, there's these, there's 318 00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:18,400 these people that break out of their niches, right? 319 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,200 And rise to mainstream Fame but that's not the nation at 320 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:23,200 Microsoft. All right. 321 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,800 Well I love that. This was a subtree of Dimes 322 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:27,400 square that you weren't allowed to make. 323 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:31,800 I wanted to add a A line I wanted to have a line in and 324 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,800 matter is like this is like Niche between and I'm with your 325 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,400 grievances but I'm no, no, no, no, I'm not, it's not Grievous, 326 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,200 it's not. He, I just you don't want to, I 327 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,400 feel like Taylor, you're the best when you have fuse, but 328 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,700 you're actively, like, I don't want to be dragged in any feuds 329 00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:52,600 here, like arguing about these things. 330 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,600 I love starting debates online. I just, you know, I don't want, 331 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,400 I have no, like, I think it's all fun. 332 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,700 It's all of your pro air. In your aunt. 333 00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:03,800 I know you once had a strong. Oh God I'm very antsy and I got 334 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:05,500 can't bear if he can't bring that up. 335 00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:07,400 You need drum. Anyway. 336 00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:10,400 Next I want it. Speaking of fighting I don't 337 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,800 actually know if you guys did. I don't know where this stances 338 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,900 are here and I certainly don't have one but play out the the 339 00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:18,700 influencer Creator debate. I don't know if one can I read a 340 00:17:18,708 --> 00:17:21,900 section of Your Story Taylor? Because I think I read a whole 341 00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:25,800 story about this by the way. Okay, the Atlantic okay, okay. 342 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,800 Well let me just read the paragraph that I thought was 343 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,600 pretty succinct and got to the point It in, in your post piece. 344 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,100 So this is from your story because the term Creator quotes 345 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:37,200 with. So, synonymous with YouTube for 346 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,400 years, people didn't know what to call those who were gaining 347 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,600 attention on other apps. It's just funny, you say creator 348 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,400 with students with YouTube and there is a term for them called 349 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:45,900 YouTubers. So I'm interested, why? 350 00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:49,400 Yeah, sort of and they were it didn't transfer because YouTube 351 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,900 itself, I have a whole section on this, in my book I actually 352 00:17:51,900 --> 00:17:55,100 wrote a whole piece about this specifically. 353 00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:58,200 Yeah I'll stop playing a couple years ago. 354 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,000 I met I write this piece like you Again, I love talking about 355 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,800 language, so I'm sure you guys remember, originally YouTubers 356 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,400 were called Partners. Do you guys remember that? 357 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,500 Well, that relates to the YouTube Partner program. 358 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:11,700 Yes, exactly an initiative. Right? 359 00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:14,600 And so then they bought next new networks and and next new kind 360 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,800 of coined this term Creator and that became so synonymous with 361 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,800 YouTube because YouTube pushed that term, right? 362 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,600 They had the whole ad campaign. It was all creators. 363 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,700 I'm sure. Mark, Bart Bergens book gets 364 00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:25,800 into this to really go after you. 365 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,200 She's awesome. So, you know, it It was people 366 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,400 who were Vine stars and influencers on Instagram. 367 00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:36,900 Remember, they were called Instagram Stars. 368 00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:37,900 People didn't even use that word. 369 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:42,200 Influenza there was these like, weird words that people and blog 370 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,100 Tumblr, you know, Tumblr, I blood pretty or whatever. 371 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,100 It wasn't until marketers who had always use the term 372 00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:50,900 influencer. Since the early 2000s, you know, 373 00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:53,100 put marketing dollars into the industry and the marketing 374 00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:56,000 industry was dominating. The monetization of that 375 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,700 industry, that that term influencer became popularized. 376 00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:02,000 Also the fall of Vine People needed a word, like, Logan Paul 377 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,500 became so platform agnostic and he became more of a YouTuber. 378 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:08,700 So anyway and then it didn't flip back and talk to creators 379 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:12,200 until in the past year. Really, but really 2021 when 380 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,900 tack, when the tech industry came and I think part of that 381 00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:19,200 was because the tech industry is always preferred that term. 382 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,100 And also, because I think a lot of VCS want to distance 383 00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:25,300 themselves between from their bad takes about influencers, 384 00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:28,100 which they spent, you know, everything shitting on his 385 00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:30,000 interests. And also Creator is such a A 386 00:19:30,008 --> 00:19:32,900 good capitalist sort of like, yeah, well, not as good as 387 00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:35,400 influencer though, right? And then I got the greatest one 388 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,500 because that means you can influence other people to buy 389 00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:40,400 products, which like you said earlier is a capitalist arrived 390 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,800 term. I mean, it's as pure As It Gets 391 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,700 In terms of what function they serve to the people that care 392 00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:48,900 about them, which is that these people can push product, which 393 00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:52,400 is how the, you know, the market moves but it but the way that 394 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,900 that people started to monetize has shifted as you guys know, 395 00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:57,600 right? So, it was about pushing 396 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,100 products. So I think influencer was the 397 00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:01,700 best term but I I think as people have relied on more 398 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:06,000 direct monetization, I think a lot of people that term Creator 399 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,200 is stuck, a little bit more like is used by platforms, like 400 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,800 pushing that or like, no hate for procreator or what's your 401 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,000 preferred. What term do you prefer? 402 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,600 Oh, I love all of them. I loved the web pretty. 403 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,500 Do you guys remember that one? Yeah, that was in your piece and 404 00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:22,000 it was a little Elmer Fudd for me. 405 00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:26,200 Oh my God, I was such a thing in like the Julia Allison. 406 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,300 If Fame ball people used to go, I just think it's, you know, 407 00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:33,400 people are always always trying to kind of articulate this term 408 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,800 for, for you. No more distributed media 409 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,600 environment. I don't have a preference 410 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,600 preference, I mean, Creator and influence are interchangeable. 411 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,100 And a lot of times when you hear people hating on the word 412 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,800 influencer, they it's a little bit of a like misogyny you type 413 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,300 of energy because influence her because the right, you know, you 414 00:20:52,308 --> 00:20:55,900 have to remember the pioneers and the Pioneers that pioneered, 415 00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:58,500 the whole quote unquote Creator, economy were women and people of 416 00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:04,100 color and lgbtq Unity. And again, a lot of VCS were, I 417 00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:06,400 think, like to like distance themselves from the roots of 418 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,700 that, which is a shame, but Creator, you know, I think it 419 00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:12,200 all works out. It's, it's how you wear it 420 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,100 right, that matters, right? And what you mean to your 421 00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:17,600 audience? Yeah, we back to the platform's 422 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,900 specifically. I don't know how much you you 423 00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:24,100 want to make this point in your piece but like the Nim cell 424 00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:28,600 concept, seems intrinsically married to tick tock, I 425 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,500 understand that there are named cells that Are on and you 426 00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:32,900 mentioned there on, whatever Reddit boards are, you know, 427 00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:35,400 Discord or twitch and all other kinds of things. 428 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,000 But just from my read of it though, nature of the 429 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,500 algorithmic feed. And, you know, these kind of a, 430 00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:46,300 i derived entertainment channels would push people towards. 431 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:48,700 I mean, everything is curated for your particular interest as 432 00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:51,800 the app understands. And so the NIMS cell idea just 433 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,800 seems like it fits so perfectly with that because this is about 434 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,500 Niche interests and this is about an app that is trying to 435 00:21:58,500 --> 00:21:59,800 do its best to cater to what it thinks. 436 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,700 Your interests are which are inherently Niche, I mean, what 437 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:05,400 do you think like how much how much of a name cell is Tick-Tock 438 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,300 versus the other platforms that you kind of describe in the 439 00:22:08,308 --> 00:22:10,400 piece? Yeah so it actually emerged in 440 00:22:10,408 --> 00:22:16,200 the Instagram meme Community for Niche meme Pages which are so 441 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,700 popular but I think you're right. 442 00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:21,600 Tom 100% like this term would not exist without the rise of 443 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,700 tick-tock I think because you, you wouldn't have seen and I 444 00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:26,600 think with people getting more online during the pandemic and 445 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,200 kind of becoming more networks themselves and knowing more 446 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,100 online people, But yeah it's completely tied to that because 447 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:35,300 I you know like famous so distributed on Tick-Tock exactly 448 00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:37,700 what you just said the algorithm is like spoon-feeding you 449 00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:40,900 content right in your Niche. I mean like Tick-Tock has been 450 00:22:40,900 --> 00:22:44,000 so good at like the long tail whereas Facebook has sort of 451 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,500 seem to shovel everyone to like Ben Shapiro ultimately or like 452 00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:51,800 these big big Pages. Whereas Tick-Tock and so quickly 453 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:55,400 Zoom you into whatever, like small Niche, you're interested 454 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,000 in. I want to go to the end of your 455 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,400 piece to because you have a bit of a like dystopic Quote from 456 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,000 from, from one of your one of your characters. 457 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:06,200 This is at the end of it. You say it's fun to be part of 458 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,800 this wave said Peter, whatever it is and start. 459 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,300 Who's Peter again, Alex Peter. He's he's like a lawyer. 460 00:23:12,500 --> 00:23:16,000 Yeah he blocked me. I don't know what I don't like 461 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,000 him. I don't know. 462 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,900 I feel okay I'll tell him to unblock you I'll talk to him. 463 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,500 Oh I want to know more about that if you're if you're on the 464 00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:28,100 outs with lawyer Twitter he's great though he okay he's 465 00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:31,100 definitely more of a you know Ray Aging anti-capitalist. 466 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:36,000 I do run a VC newsletter but okay, okay, it's been, here's 467 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,700 the quote, it's fun to be part of this waste of Peter, whatever 468 00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:40,100 it is. I think some people think it's 469 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:42,800 the decline of society and maybe they're right, but it's 470 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,000 interesting. Let's, let's unpack that a 471 00:23:45,008 --> 00:23:47,000 little bit here. I mean, why would people think 472 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,900 that this type of character is in some way like reflective of a 473 00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:53,100 social and societal decline. Yeah. 474 00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:56,700 That is very tongue-in-cheek quote that I included kind of as 475 00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:59,000 a joke. Like it's a nod to like these 476 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,700 hate these people. That I think do feel like it's a 477 00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:04,700 downfall of society and the heat on the internet a lot, it's 478 00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:06,700 definitely not the downfall of society. 479 00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:11,400 I am very, I mean, I think I'm very Pro these shifts. 480 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,400 I think that are happening and media Purity to it, right? 481 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,900 I mean, like, yeah, the things that the internet has gone 482 00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:19,600 through is, you know, in the origins of YouTube in the first 483 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,400 people that were successful on it, the claim that these people 484 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,900 always had was like, hey I was just posting this so my friends 485 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:26,500 could see it. It was just a way that we could 486 00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:28,700 host these things and there was kind of like a Homespun 487 00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:30,000 earnestness to it. It. 488 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,500 And then, once it became, you know, people got huge, If people 489 00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:35,600 could see there's a business, the whole like, you know, 490 00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:39,000 capitalistic Community got involved in it, it obviously 491 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,700 shifted and to be like as uncynical as possible, it seems 492 00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:45,900 like the Nim cell idea is kind of a return to those roots, 493 00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:47,400 right? I'm not making me crazy, it's 494 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,300 just me doing the things that I love to do and finding, you 495 00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:52,900 know, a large enough audience for me to feel like I'm reaching 496 00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:56,900 people, right? Know 100%, you're 100% right? 497 00:24:56,900 --> 00:25:00,000 And that's I think the beauty of this and what's really Read 498 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,100 about it. And so. 499 00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:02,000 Yeah. And Alex. 500 00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:05,500 I think Alex knows it agrees, obviously, being an imbecile 501 00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:08,300 himself, but I just thought it was a funny Queen have to be 502 00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:11,100 sort of arch about the whole thing because part of it is 503 00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:14,300 you're not trying to be this big Creator but now you're in the 504 00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:17,500 post. So you have yeah right I wanted 505 00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:21,100 to and we I really like the themes of this part of the 506 00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:24,900 conversation will carry over to the next but Tom I mean you have 507 00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:28,600 a story sort on YouTubes. I don't know if it's that they 508 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,600 just fell backwards and To being great at podcasting or or if 509 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,700 this was a strategy or how much credit you give YouTube or they 510 00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:40,000 just have lists Juggernaut that they locked out with or like, 511 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,400 what, what is your take on why? Well, first prove to us, I guess 512 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,800 the YouTube is ascendant and podcasting, and then why did 513 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,500 that happen? Sure, I don't even know how much 514 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:51,800 I have to prove. Yeah, as I'm moving on to the 515 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,800 YouTube video, I was talking to some of my media sources back 516 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,600 with that was, you know, my racket and I was like, oh, I'm 517 00:25:57,608 --> 00:25:59,000 covering YouTube. They're like, you know, they're 518 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,800 huge and Thing and I'm like, what do you mean? 519 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,700 Huge and podcast? I mean, like they're literally 520 00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:07,500 the largest platform of podcasts and distributor podcasts out 521 00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:08,600 there. Like there was a survey, they 522 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,400 came out to surveys, I found earlier this year, that showed 523 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,600 that more people, listen to podcasts on YouTube than they do 524 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,000 on Spotify or apple. And so, and the fact that I 525 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,600 didn't know this was something that I realized I was reporting 526 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,900 the Pieces Just because I'm old, I was gonna say I listen to all 527 00:26:24,900 --> 00:26:27,900 podcasts on YouTube that's like the place to go for podcast. 528 00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:29,400 Yeah. And like the more I think about 529 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,700 it. I uh, Obviously Listen to, It's 530 00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:32,700 not on YouTube to so it shouldn't have been a surprising 531 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:35,100 to me as it was. But yeah, the fact is, you know 532 00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:37,600 where is Spotify? For example, when they went into 533 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,800 podcasting there were like we're going to fucking spend hundreds 534 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,300 of millions of dollars were going to sign exclusive deals. 535 00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:45,300 We're going to make it clear to people that this is the place 536 00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:48,100 that you should, you know, list to subscribe and listen to all 537 00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:51,000 of your podcast and apple is starting to do that now and you 538 00:26:51,008 --> 00:26:53,400 know Stitcher got bought by iHeartRadio and there was like a 539 00:26:53,408 --> 00:26:57,000 huge cash infusion into this space to make different 540 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,700 platforms, the podcast Hub and then you too. 541 00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:02,400 Because it is I think as I described in the piece it's like 542 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,500 a massive star just that because of its gravitational, pull can 543 00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:11,200 just like absorbed various things into its orbit that it 544 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,100 didn't intend to. And like the example that 545 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,000 happened before this was music, right? 546 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,500 YouTube is through the single largest music platform out there 547 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,700 not because YouTube there YouTube's actual music efforts. 548 00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:24,400 They fucking suck. They fail every time you know 549 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,700 that they make like YouTube red and YouTube music subscription 550 00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:29,200 Services, no one likes them. Well, the Bergen book which 551 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,900 we're going to talk about Much more about, but sort of gets to 552 00:27:30,908 --> 00:27:34,400 the point that whenever Google tried to like, do these contract 553 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,100 things, like from the beginning, that was sort of the failed 554 00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:39,200 strategy and when YouTube Just leaned into like let the masses 555 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,900 do what they want. They've been wildly successful 556 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:45,200 and so the negotiated strategy the business development 557 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,500 impulse. But if but you know, like the 558 00:27:47,508 --> 00:27:50,200 Taylor's old beat, it's just been sort of let it to the 559 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,100 consumer and the creators and that's a more powerful force. 560 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,100 Yeah. And and so, like a lot of the 561 00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:59,700 basic features that we expect of podcasting players as like 562 00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:01,300 Catchers ourselves. We're like, well, he needs an 563 00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:04,500 RSS feed so we can just auto upload or episode when it's 564 00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:07,300 done. It needs to be able to like 565 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:11,300 fucking play when it's in my pocket so that it doesn't just 566 00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:12,800 turn off every time it's the YouTube app. 567 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,800 Does I mean like basic basic features they don't even have 568 00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:18,500 right? But because it's like this, an 569 00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:21,100 incredible as you like written about so many times, Taylor like 570 00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:24,800 this incredible audience, aggregator and the algorithm has 571 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,200 this insanely powerful. May be dangerously powerful 572 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,400 recommendation tool. It gets people keyed into 573 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,300 different podcasts, which is always been this huge issue for 574 00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:36,500 podcasting, which is like, how do I find out about a new show 575 00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:39,200 to listen to the apps? You know, like Spotify and all 576 00:28:39,208 --> 00:28:41,900 those guys suck at it, but YouTube is the best at it. 577 00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:45,200 And so for all these reasons, it's become this thing. 578 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,800 And you know like Spotify that they consider them their number 579 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,700 one threat a YouTuber. Is, you know, it's like I guess 580 00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:54,000 with the piece as I was like, reporting it out, like tried to 581 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,400 raise is like, what does it even mean to make a podcast at this 582 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,700 point? Like if it's, you know, if you 583 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,000 Something like Joe Rogan, right? He's like, my lead example in 584 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,900 the story, he was huge on YouTube, obviously a tons, like 585 00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:08,000 millions and millions of subscribers to his audio show 586 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,200 but he would have probably more people on YouTube that we just, 587 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,100 you know, listen in on our watch and listen on his and it on his 588 00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:17,000 whole show. And so you know, I think this 589 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,900 whole world you think it's one thing and then it becomes 590 00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:22,500 something else which I guess is like the core of sort of what 591 00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:25,100 you write about Taylor. But but yeah, that's essentially 592 00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:27,500 like the YouTube podcasting story and no one really knows 593 00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:29,600 yet like how much they're going to invest. 594 00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:32,700 To like take it on or it's just going to continue being you know 595 00:29:32,708 --> 00:29:35,400 the side project that also is the most powerful thing in the 596 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,700 industry. I'm wondering Tom like how much 597 00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:42,300 of it is, you know, Spotify keeps trying to get you to like, 598 00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:46,800 watch these video podcasts, like, do you think that's trying 599 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,600 to compete with YouTube and like ad? 600 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,400 Because I've heard that, you know, they're just trying to get 601 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,700 everyone to create video content for their podcast 100%. 602 00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:56,600 And actually, in the story, I was saying that the reason that 603 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,500 they have a video player is because of Joe Rogan I mean they 604 00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:02,900 were going to do it regardless but like as they were signing 605 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:06,100 the deal for him and his team was like look this guy's got 606 00:30:06,100 --> 00:30:09,400 millions of viewers on YouTube. You do want to just lose that 607 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,400 they like had secludes together really quickly. 608 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,300 This video player to kind of appease those kinds of people 609 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,900 and so I guess like the fine line here is between like a 610 00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:21,000 podcast versus a talk show because that's all it is right, 611 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,800 you know, it's like what we're doing is a talk show. 612 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,800 If we posted this, which we want. 613 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,400 I guess on YouTube, we technically made a pot. 614 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,600 No, it's embarrassing to have you. 615 00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:32,900 You say no, the most powerful podcast platform in the world is 616 00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:35,900 YouTube platform that we do not publish to. 617 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:37,900 Yeah. But I mean it's much more 618 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:40,700 production obviously. Right is podcasting, sort of a 619 00:30:40,708 --> 00:30:44,700 thing of the Elites in some way or the sort of part of our 620 00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:47,300 blindness. I guess to the YouTube issue 621 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:50,500 would seem to be that, you know, someone like me like I want 622 00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:52,600 podcasts like multitask. Marty busy. 623 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,800 It's hard for me to imagine like sitting listening to like Joe 624 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,000 Rogan talk for like hours on end. 625 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,500 Just like dedicating my Attention to that. 626 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:03,500 It feels like the biggest like waste of time even though I can 627 00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:06,700 see why he's an Entertainer. It's just like getting your full 628 00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:08,700 attention. That is hardly also you can put 629 00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,900 any place on YouTube, right? I don't find that way because 630 00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:14,700 like I put on the H3 podcast, which is really long. 631 00:31:14,700 --> 00:31:17,300 And I just like what happened on double speed and just kind of 632 00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:20,500 like which one is H3? H3, H3 podcast. 633 00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:24,300 Wait, are you serious? See, this is what I'm talking 634 00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:25,900 about. The probably has like hundreds 635 00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:27,300 of thousands of listen. What is it? 636 00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:29,900 Has no clue about its massive. Of. 637 00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:32,200 Yeah, it's like those Ethan Klein. 638 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,400 Do you guys know the H 3 H, have you ever? 639 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,800 Yeah, they have almost 3 million Subs but like it's one of the 640 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,300 bigger, the higher castes never heard of it. 641 00:31:41,700 --> 00:31:43,600 Okay. Well there's, you know, there's 642 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,500 a lot like that. I mean, only recognize this guy, 643 00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:48,300 I guess. I I've seen The chopped-up 644 00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:50,100 Tick-Tock of it. I guess I see a lot of these 645 00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:53,100 things now on just like Tick Tock, like hits of it. 646 00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:55,200 Yeah, here's a podcast with Hassan as well. 647 00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:58,800 Yeah, I mean I think that there's so many podcasts I feel 648 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,800 like every No, sort of nation at Microsoft research, Society, 649 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,600 country, two dudes in a room decide. 650 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,500 I'm trying to fuck us to. I'm not hating. 651 00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:11,700 I'm trying to get back in there. I love podcasts. 652 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,200 I think I think audio is a compelling format and like you 653 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,300 said video, I mean the video component just kind of adds to 654 00:32:18,300 --> 00:32:20,000 it. Different podcasts have 655 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,400 different levels of production but I think a lot of YouTubers 656 00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:24,400 also have pivoted. I mean look at what Logan Paul 657 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,400 did that's like his whole business now. 658 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,200 Right right. Yeah and I was like as video as 659 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,300 it could get Get. But his show is really just him 660 00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:33,400 and his buddies, you know, sitting behind a desk. 661 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,200 You know, you know, just talking shit. 662 00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:37,900 The pandemic also seem to play a part in it. 663 00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:41,700 I'm, I'm curious for you Taylor. Like, as you, you know, we're 664 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,800 consuming you to podcasts. I don't know if you were always 665 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,600 a work from home person or that obviously, you know, was a 666 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,900 product of, you know, the pandemic. 667 00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:53,800 But as people were telling me, you know, because you could just 668 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,900 have a tab open at home, listening to a podcast in the 669 00:32:56,900 --> 00:33:00,400 back room, maybe click over and listen to and Watch it a few 670 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,600 times. That kind of helps accelerate 671 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,300 that Trend was that was that your situation as well? 672 00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:09,400 Or you just have always liked YouTube for any other reason to 673 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,000 be your podcast place. The podcast that I listened to 674 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,000 were on YouTube, like I listen to a lot of YouTuber podcasts 675 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,900 and I think like as somebody that covers the beat I'm just I 676 00:33:19,900 --> 00:33:23,600 also spend a lot of time watching YouTube videos or like 677 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,900 listening to them really like listening to video essays on 678 00:33:25,900 --> 00:33:29,200 YouTube. So for me, you know, I feel like 679 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,100 that was just The easiest one and add the Apple podcast player 680 00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:33,800 is so bad. You know that. 681 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,400 I feel like I got into YouTube priest Spotify. 682 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,400 I definitely the pockets that I listened to on Spotify or like 683 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,100 the Wall Street Journal daily podcast. 684 00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:43,300 You know, it's like the news one, you know. 685 00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:45,800 But the other ones, do you listen to All In? 686 00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:49,300 We got everyone tells me to listen to that. 687 00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:52,300 I have listened to few times. They talk about meteors you have 688 00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:54,200 a take. Let us say, it's full of people 689 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,200 that have at certain points in their lives like gone after you. 690 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,100 So I don't know how excited I really loved your well, You know 691 00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:04,200 it's drama queen you and Jason I thought have like front of me 692 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:07,100 your end of it along sometimes Frenemies I'm not enemies with 693 00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:09,500 anything. Yeah they like to like well I 694 00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:14,000 think in 2020 I think what happened is the VCS all decided, 695 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,500 you know. I mean Jason to be fair. 696 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:19,400 Jason was Jason's been in like the influencer, like he's always 697 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,500 been on my beat, he's not who I'm talking about. 698 00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:24,600 But you know, people that injuries and other people that 699 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,199 like had always kind of ignored my space and influencers pays 700 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:31,300 forever suddenly now decide I'd that they want to be in it. 701 00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:33,100 I think they felt very threatened. 702 00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:36,699 Well, they need Viagra. I don't know. 703 00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:40,000 I'm die love debating Tech. I love it Anderson. 704 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,300 I had me on their podcast twice and didn't release either of 705 00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:43,699 that bus. Oh my God. 706 00:34:43,699 --> 00:34:49,500 What, what what would you like to say something about to piss 707 00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:52,199 off, Mark, and then he was like, fuck this girl, what did you 708 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:54,800 say? They're really sensitive people. 709 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,100 Yeah. Oh, they're babies. 710 00:34:56,100 --> 00:35:00,000 They're babies babies. I just like, it's so like People 711 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,200 who are such die-hard like free speech. 712 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,700 People the amount that they're nervous system Beach at all, 713 00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:09,300 they're not, you know, they that's their pose, but then they 714 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,500 there they like scare everybody. In Silicon Valley that like, if 715 00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:14,800 you say something about us, we're like watching you. 716 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,900 They're very aware of like what people are saying. 717 00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:20,600 I feel like it's, it's really bad. 718 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,600 One thing that I have to say that I love is discovering new 719 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,400 little like really highly preventional kind of groups on 720 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,700 the internet like media Twitter is very much like that, 721 00:35:30,700 --> 00:35:33,800 especially New York media, and I never was on Tech Twitter mostly 722 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,600 because those people kind of, didn't they weren't relevant to 723 00:35:36,607 --> 00:35:39,300 my beat, like, I talk to people at YouTube, maybe the platforms, 724 00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:42,600 but like, definitely not the PCS other than, I mean, see, what is 725 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:47,100 it tpg or the churn and group? There they were, they were might 726 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,700 and, and light speed, and some other, you know, I talked to 727 00:35:49,700 --> 00:35:52,100 them sometimes, but the, like a reason, whatever. 728 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,000 And 2020, I think they all just decided to get involved. 729 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,600 And I, that's the first time that I discovered Tech Twitter 730 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,500 and I love it. The story. 731 00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:06,100 I feel like it's been maybe a year and a half that VCS were 732 00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:09,300 just like trying to will consumer investments into being. 733 00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:11,000 I mean, there really haven't been a lot. 734 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:12,800 I mean, you could argue. Some people will say, like, 735 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,500 coinbase, Robin Hood given, but like, I feel like a true like 736 00:36:16,500 --> 00:36:19,600 consumer company hasn't really hit. 737 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,700 Obviously injuries to went all in on clubhouse. 738 00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:23,600 You know. Haha, sub stock is sort of 739 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,000 consumer. I mean, be real. 740 00:36:27,100 --> 00:36:28,900 I mean, what not? I don't know. 741 00:36:28,900 --> 00:36:31,200 Like, Are you? Yeah. 742 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,500 Are you optimistic about any like the new sort of startups? 743 00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:38,300 Well, I think it's cool and I like to see new. 744 00:36:38,300 --> 00:36:41,100 I mean, we need more and more competitive landscape in terms 745 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:45,100 of social, but yeah, they do try and will things into existence 746 00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:48,300 and they're just so there's a lot of drama and pettiness in 747 00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:52,900 that world and obsession with image, which I find so fun to 748 00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:54,100 watch. I think that's what I love about 749 00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:57,500 covering it influencer world and like, they really want that it. 750 00:36:57,500 --> 00:37:00,700 They want influence so badly. So It's fun. 751 00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:02,400 It's always satisfying to see that. 752 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,200 No matter how wealthy people are. 753 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,000 They still end up having like many of the same concerns that 754 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,900 everyone else has. It's like I'm petty feuds on 755 00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:13,700 Twitter like I. Yeah, well certainly filtering 756 00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:16,600 any of that through Twitter. Yeah, I mean I gotta say Taylor 757 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,100 and you're like, you know, the real cultural Anthropologist of 758 00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:22,500 the internet. So I may be out of my league 759 00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:25,200 here. But like I think Twitter 2020 760 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,600 around the time that this sort of thing was happening that 761 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,500 these guys are all getting up one of the worst times. 762 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,600 Times on Twitter. I just felt like people are so 763 00:37:32,900 --> 00:37:36,300 disjointed and unhappy and just like, spewing out left and 764 00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:38,400 right, anything? I mean we may be terrified 765 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,700 because of the pandemic and, you know, stuck at home and they 766 00:37:41,700 --> 00:37:44,200 people were just losing their minds, but that whole period 767 00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:46,600 just awful. Well, we got any Trump I think 768 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,500 that helped in some ways. Tom, you're totally right. 769 00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:52,900 Like I think a lot of there was a lot of like rage and 770 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,100 frustration that was like pent-up and it kind of came to a 771 00:37:56,107 --> 00:37:59,500 head and I think, especially in the tech world. 772 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,800 Yeah, it was so vicious. I was so surprised because I'm 773 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,900 such a and I think this is why none of these tech people have 774 00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:10,100 been able to like you know they wanted to paint me as this like 775 00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:13,300 in SeaTac data dot when it's like Kara Swisher was had 776 00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:15,300 something on Twitter. It's like you could not pick a 777 00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,200 worse, right? Person to kind of like try and 778 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,000 apply those labels to, cause it's like, just counterfactual 779 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:22,500 to, like, literally everything I right? 780 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,300 And so yeah, it's funny. And I ate and now they've moved 781 00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:29,400 on. I think two different things. 782 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,700 Eggs and sugar and it's kind of diffuse now. 783 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:33,400 And you know, kind of thinking about this. 784 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,700 I don't even know Eric's thought about this in a way that period 785 00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:40,100 and like you're being a central character to that is almost the 786 00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:42,500 inspiration for this podcast. Wow. 787 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,200 No. Because there was so much it 788 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,100 wasn't just about you. It was also about this 789 00:38:47,100 --> 00:38:48,900 generalized feeling. Yeah, that's right. 790 00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:52,100 Yes. I met a conversation about it. 791 00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:54,700 I mean, part of what's frustrating about Twitter is 792 00:38:54,700 --> 00:38:56,900 that it's so short that it feels like. 793 00:38:56,900 --> 00:38:59,400 You can't really have the actual debate. 794 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,100 And that these tech people have their own built-in audience so 795 00:39:02,100 --> 00:39:06,000 they can get super validated. They act like what we're the 796 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,100 cathedral right? Where are the reporters that are 797 00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:10,400 so powerful? So they act like, we're the 798 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,500 elites even though they often have like bigger following than 799 00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:17,600 us, certainly way more money and people their fans have a 800 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,200 financial incentive to suck up to them because these are the 801 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,900 people that might give them funding but then they act like 802 00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:25,900 they're the victims and then reporters who, I mean, this is 803 00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:27,800 the most, you know, complimentary of us. 804 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,400 You could be, we wanted to Beat It. 805 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,700 It out where the suckers for like, oh yeah, you disagree with 806 00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:35,500 me, let's have like this substantive debate, so it's easy 807 00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:42,200 to and I think as somebody that loves Tech and like, you know, 808 00:39:42,300 --> 00:39:45,800 good products people, I, I find when I, it's like, they like to 809 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,900 kind of, like, think of think about things in an interesting 810 00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:50,600 way, right? And like feel like, hey, like 811 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,700 let's take a look at this product and how it's being used 812 00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:54,800 and emergent user behavior and think about it. 813 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,700 And I think it's, you know, but I will say it every time, I 814 00:39:57,707 --> 00:40:01,300 criticize Tech Twitter or VC is People like not all you know not 815 00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:03,700 and it's true. It is more like Normie. 816 00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:07,200 Sort of only the normal ones are just not doing the feuds but I 817 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,600 think it's fun. I mean I think it's fun to cover 818 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,400 as a journalist and that's I agree. 819 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,900 That's the benefit of podcasting, right? 820 00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:17,400 You can like go a little deeper and it's more obvious is if 821 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,800 someone isn't engaging on a podcast or whereas on Twitter 822 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,600 that you can just say your thing I mean we talk about this 823 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,700 endlessly but Marc Andreessen like the fact that he invested 824 00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:31,500 in real estate thing after the whole Be incident and never even 825 00:40:31,500 --> 00:40:35,400 has to like these where the circle he never even has to say, 826 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,100 oh yeah, this is why I wrote the letter because we live in this 827 00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:41,500 media environment where you can just do two contradictory things 828 00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:44,400 and never really have to answer which is it the contradictions, 829 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,300 right? Like that is like classic 830 00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:48,300 YouTuber, Behavior, never apologize. 831 00:40:48,300 --> 00:40:51,300 Never could sleep. You write your own narrative, 832 00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:53,400 right? And I think that, you know, 833 00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:56,300 yeah, Mark has learned that I just was dying because like, 834 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:03,600 Mark wants to be you on so badly and he's just not Just like 835 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,400 you're like Netscape wasn't huge. 836 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,700 Like what have you built? Like I think he's desperately. 837 00:41:07,700 --> 00:41:10,900 Wants that wider cultural relevance and he wants to be an 838 00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:12,900 influencer. He's just not like uses Twitter 839 00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:15,500 audience but like no normal person knows or cares about him 840 00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:19,900 and he's really increasingly out of touch and it's just so funny 841 00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:23,900 to like, watch him scramble. One of the show where enablers 842 00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:27,300 the show is named after Marc Andreessen Mark Zuckerberg 843 00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,800 exchange. Yeah, mark injuries and I assume 844 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,000 we have enough new people that is good to refresh but Marc Marc 845 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,300 Andreessen messages, look in a sort of text to come out in a 846 00:41:38,308 --> 00:41:41,400 lawsuit where and reasons like the cat's in the bag and the 847 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,300 bags and the river over like some shareholder thing and and 848 00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:47,800 Zuckerberg is like does that mean the cat's dead? 849 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,900 And so that's anyway. Yeah, the whole concept of 850 00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:56,100 influence is such an interesting thing and this again goes back 851 00:41:56,100 --> 00:42:00,200 to your Nim cell idea because there seems to be a huge But 852 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,500 passing Trend among everyone in involved in all of these about 853 00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:08,300 who really has influence and you know who deserves power. 854 00:42:08,500 --> 00:42:10,900 And, you know, I mean, that's why everyone wants to play the 855 00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:13,300 victim because if you're the victim, that means you have no 856 00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:16,100 influence that, you were the subject of larger forces that 857 00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:20,100 are causing you, your unhappiness or worse. 858 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,000 He so, like, in the case of Marc Andreessen him, wanting 859 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,400 influence, the man has a huge amount of influence. 860 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,400 He is the commander, doesn't have cultural relevance? 861 00:42:29,500 --> 00:42:33,200 Evans, he doesn't. He's not a, he's not a 862 00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:36,500 culturally relevant, like he's culturally relevant in Tech. 863 00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:39,100 But I think what he wants is like Normie people. 864 00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:42,100 When I'll never forget, I was doing this documentary about 865 00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:44,700 this all black content House in Atlanta. 866 00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:49,600 One of the first, all black tick tock houses in the fall of 2020 867 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,600 or winter of 2020. And these one of these kids was 868 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,600 like, oh yeah, I have Clubhouse. I love Clubhouse. 869 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,500 The only thing is I hate when you get on and they force you to 870 00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:02,600 follow these, like, Random old white guys at Mark Anderson and 871 00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:04,400 they're all, oh, that guy. That's so yeah. 872 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,100 Yeah, you gotta block him immediately. 873 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,900 Anyway, like I just was like guy because I'm like, these people 874 00:43:08,900 --> 00:43:10,800 have no idea who he is, but he wants. 875 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,000 He wants so badly like but of course, they're all fragile. 876 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,100 I mean, all these billionaires are so fragile. 877 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,300 Looks like anyone right now even though he's like the Paragon of 878 00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:21,700 like, what these people want to be, the guy is claiming 879 00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:23,800 victimhood constantly on Twitter. 880 00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:26,200 I mean, he's buying the company and still thinks he's a victim. 881 00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:28,100 Of course. What's your? 882 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:29,900 Yeah. What's the one we Haven't talked 883 00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:33,400 about maybe you love the most, but what's your view on Balaji 884 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,400 these days? Like he put out a huge book, but 885 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,500 it feels like his me blocked me. So I tried to get an interview 886 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:41,500 with him and he blocked me. But of course he said I don't 887 00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:43,600 see him at all. Like I he doesn't penetrate her 888 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,900 like, is he not here relevant? Yeah, he's just not relevant. 889 00:43:46,900 --> 00:43:49,500 Like he's not relevant, I think and I think also you know, I 890 00:43:49,508 --> 00:43:54,200 loved that part in Cade metz's story from a year and a half ago 891 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,800 where he got that email from biology, where he's talking 892 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:00,800 about targeting about her post. It just shows how Desperate and 893 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,600 how hard these people are trying to work to attack. 894 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,000 People that like, guys, we don't give a fuck about you like 895 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:12,100 you're so Random like me, I'm sure there's definitely, no, I 896 00:44:12,107 --> 00:44:15,400 mean, definitely, they don't believe in democracy, that's one 897 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:16,900 of those. I mean, it's the classic sort of 898 00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:19,800 all right, tactic where it's out there, but they won't just like, 899 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,300 say, I'm against democracy. What would actually let can. 900 00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:25,600 We could have any that when you mean by that, why do you think 901 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,700 they don't believe in democracy? I mean, they basically say that 902 00:44:28,700 --> 00:44:33,600 ball. CCP New York Times Like Bitcoin 903 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,500 sort of try I mean, yeah, they oh no sure. 904 00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:38,500 I understand that. I mean look I need you read the 905 00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:40,200 books that Marc Andreessen tweets. 906 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,400 It's like the Machiavelli, like supporting like Blake Masters 907 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,400 and stuff people that are like saying like, you know, only men, 908 00:44:46,900 --> 00:44:50,400 like it's obvious. They don't or, yeah, I guess if 909 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,100 you want to extend the idea that anyone who supports the current 910 00:44:53,100 --> 00:44:55,300 Republican party, I mean, I'd argue any version of it. 911 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,800 I don't think it's just that. I think it's their whole like, 912 00:44:57,900 --> 00:45:01,500 you know, Right? I think they've talked about 913 00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:04,000 this. Like they talked about, like, 914 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,300 their whole thing with a II mean, people like Natasha 915 00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:08,200 Teague, my colleague and, like, speak to this, because I'm not 916 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,400 deep in Silicon Valley lure, but they're definitely all 917 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,800 reactionary and kind of weird have weird political beliefs. 918 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,200 This is sort of a tag on this but are you are you free to like 919 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,900 have opinions of any sort? Now like you're a calmness or 920 00:45:22,900 --> 00:45:26,000 what sort of the former columnist, sorry do you have 921 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,200 like political opinions on Twitter or do you try now 922 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,300 Minotaur? Political opinions on Twitter. 923 00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:35,600 Are you crazy or it's just it's not allowed or like what 924 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,800 something? I know. 925 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:42,400 I, you know, I feel personally like Twitter, I just kind of go 926 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,300 to share like news and stuff on my beat. 927 00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:47,900 I really I used to tell my like, when I was a running social 928 00:45:47,900 --> 00:45:50,500 media for news companies, I would always say like tweet your 929 00:45:50,500 --> 00:45:53,300 beat, which I find you because I feel like people subscribed to 930 00:45:53,308 --> 00:45:54,700 me for news about influencer stuff. 931 00:45:54,700 --> 00:45:58,300 They don't want to hear me talk about abortion or student debt 932 00:45:58,300 --> 00:45:59,500 or whatever like those are there. 933 00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:00,900 Qualified people to talk about that. 934 00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:03,700 The one thing I do talk about is chronic illness and and covid 935 00:46:03,700 --> 00:46:07,000 stuff because it's affected me. So personally, but that's that's 936 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,500 about as political as I get online and sometimes I would 937 00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:15,100 retweet, you know, just that we live in like hellscape of 938 00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:16,600 environment. Broadly. 939 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,500 But I'm pretty. I mean, I'm, I'm, I don't, 940 00:46:19,500 --> 00:46:21,800 that's another thing. I think these people are always 941 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:23,500 like, oh, you know, tell around soda. 942 00:46:23,500 --> 00:46:26,700 I'm nobody knows. I'm not, I'm never open about my 943 00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:30,100 political beliefs really well, but to be fair, Although you did 944 00:46:30,100 --> 00:46:33,700 write that article about the person who was out there, 945 00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:37,600 tweeting about all of the trans teachers and, you know, 946 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,200 different types of tags that. Yeah. 947 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:40,700 Yeah. Hi. 948 00:46:40,700 --> 00:46:42,800 Rachel has a huge influence, right? 949 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,300 No, I cover I cover policy, I cover political stuff all the 950 00:46:46,300 --> 00:46:48,400 time and I was a political reporter for two years. 951 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:53,300 I cover politics but I'm just saying like I'm not came at that 952 00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:56,600 with, you know, the angle which I and I think any normal person 953 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,200 should agree with that. This person is also bad. 954 00:46:59,300 --> 00:47:02,900 What Doing anything bad thing. I think you can read a story and 955 00:47:02,900 --> 00:47:06,100 if you read it I mean it's funny that you say that Tom because 956 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,100 the story, the story says basically like, you know, this 957 00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:12,700 woman is responsible for doxing and harassing people and has 958 00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:16,000 gotten several gay people fired and wants gay people out of 959 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,100 schools. I think you read that you and I 960 00:47:19,100 --> 00:47:21,500 would take away the physician of like that's bad. 961 00:47:21,500 --> 00:47:22,200 Right. Right. 962 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,300 But other people they read that and they say this is a brave 963 00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:26,900 truth-teller they need to support her. 964 00:47:26,900 --> 00:47:30,800 So you know it's the piece doesn't say My opinion of her. 965 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,500 But it's very clearly lays out her ideology which I think the 966 00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:38,800 majority of Americans would find reprehensible, right? 967 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:43,600 But yeah, and by the way like I you know I think that story what 968 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,900 it was about as much of sort of her. 969 00:47:45,900 --> 00:47:49,300 And the woman behind it was about talking about the way that 970 00:47:49,500 --> 00:47:51,200 the right-wing media ecosystem works. 971 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,200 And how this this influencer is basically acting as an 972 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,200 assignment editor for the right wing, right? 973 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,600 Media cycle, and that's important. 974 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,400 Honestly, I'm getting at this last leg interrogating your 975 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:07,400 politics, but more just sort of in the journalists Creator sort 976 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,700 of overlap. Like I think from my personal 977 00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:12,400 experience, when I was free to be more of a Creator, you know, 978 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,500 I in my first story said, like I thought supporting Donald Trump 979 00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:18,300 was like, against the pale and there is a degree to, which like 980 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,900 creators have like a brand an authentic brand where I mean, 981 00:48:22,900 --> 00:48:25,000 you do, expose only parts of yourself. 982 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,800 But like, politics like clearly see through, I mean, even the 983 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:29,500 Barstool guy came out on the abortion. 984 00:48:29,500 --> 00:48:31,700 Something. So I'm just interested in like, 985 00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:33,000 you know. Yeah. 986 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,500 Do you see reporters being much more open with, like their 987 00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:40,700 opinions sort of, as we continue to move into a sort of a Creator 988 00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:42,000 World? Definitely. 989 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,500 I mean, I think these are things and by the way, I think that 990 00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:46,500 it's important to stand for values. 991 00:48:46,500 --> 00:48:50,000 I mean, I care deeply about equality and, you know, 992 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,100 representation and things like that. 993 00:48:53,100 --> 00:48:58,000 I think what news companies don't generally, like, is when 994 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,200 reporters. Speak to specific pot, like 995 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,300 specific bills and issues and votes and things like that. 996 00:49:04,900 --> 00:49:06,800 And again, I say this is somebody that had to manage and 997 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,700 be the one in The Newsroom, like, hey guys that he's sending 998 00:49:09,700 --> 00:49:12,700 you the your Tweet emails. It's also funny because 999 00:49:12,700 --> 00:49:16,200 newsrooms they only care about Twitter like you can be honest. 1000 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,900 Talk saying anything. I feel like sometimes yeah but 1001 00:49:18,900 --> 00:49:21,900 yeah I do think I mean I think what what has been really laid 1002 00:49:21,900 --> 00:49:25,800 Barren and you know people like Wesley Lowery have have spoken 1003 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,900 really well about this and these nuances is this this concept of 1004 00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:31,900 quote unquote. Objectivity and how, you know we 1005 00:49:31,900 --> 00:49:36,200 all bring our backgrounds and identities to our beads and we 1006 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,000 can't be expected to leave that at the door. 1007 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:43,200 And you know, just there's no such thing as having no beliefs 1008 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,000 and no ideology. It's just not your human in this 1009 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:47,600 world and you have your own experiences. 1010 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,500 And so I think it's really important to newsrooms recognize 1011 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:55,400 that and II support people. I mean, when I say I had to, you 1012 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,200 know, when I was running social media bunch of media 1013 00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,300 organizations, like I really support Porter's doing that. 1014 00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:03,000 I just feel like me, personally, I don't, I don't have people 1015 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,800 following me for my political beliefs drive, people following 1016 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,800 me because they want to know about Creator, economy news, or 1017 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,100 they want to know, funny, you know, I like to share funny 1018 00:50:11,100 --> 00:50:13,200 memes and things like that. Like, it's more of that. 1019 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:17,700 So I think different reporters, however, the built themselves 1020 00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:19,800 like anything, social media account user, you're like, I 1021 00:50:19,808 --> 00:50:21,300 know it. My accounts for like. 1022 00:50:21,300 --> 00:50:23,900 Yeah, right. I feel like I'm not, I need two 1023 00:50:25,700 --> 00:50:28,400 different things, right? Like I use my Instagram account 1024 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,000 for promotion. I have a I'm account. 1025 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:34,400 I have a tick tock for other things but that's key to me 1026 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,500 because I think part of this idea of, you know, reporters 1027 00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:39,400 showed her shouldn't Express, their political opinions to me. 1028 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,100 Like, the key aspect of it is that most of their political 1029 00:50:42,100 --> 00:50:43,400 opinions are not that interesting. 1030 00:50:43,700 --> 00:50:47,300 And I don't really care, you know, if any New York Times 1031 00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:49,300 political reporter or watch a food court has started just 1032 00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:52,400 tweeting out, you know, I think that this particular Bill unless 1033 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,400 it's like, factually informed, I don't really care what they have 1034 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:56,600 to say. I don't think their political 1035 00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,800 opinions with that meaningful, so knowing your audience, Is a 1036 00:50:59,808 --> 00:51:01,500 huge part of having a presence on. 1037 00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:03,600 I do think there's this phenomenon with like view from 1038 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,100 nowhere stories. I certainly don't think Taylor 1039 00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:09,200 does this, but we're a lot of you for nowhere stories where 1040 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,500 like the piece can almost lead you to the opposite conclusion 1041 00:51:12,500 --> 00:51:15,000 that the reporter might hold. Or there are lots of there are 1042 00:51:15,008 --> 00:51:18,000 lots of stories that effectively with you. 1043 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,300 Here's the thing. You have to consider how, you 1044 00:51:21,300 --> 00:51:24,700 know, there are people, there are specific writers, write that 1045 00:51:24,700 --> 00:51:28,900 frame things in a specific way. I think that make it very clear. 1046 00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:31,900 The takeaway right York Times has reported this clearly 1047 00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:34,800 worried about cancel culture, whoever, but like, that's his 1048 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,400 beat. It's like, can't we just, but 1049 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,400 wouldn't it be more enjoyable content? 1050 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,600 If he just like, said I'm very, they would get more engagement 1051 00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,000 if he was like I'm very concerned with cancel culture 1052 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,500 and like that sort of my be right but they want. 1053 00:51:47,500 --> 00:51:48,900 Oh I thought you were going to say someone else. 1054 00:51:48,900 --> 00:51:53,300 That's somebody. I know you are you know, Michael 1055 00:51:53,300 --> 00:51:54,700 covers campus culture? Sure. 1056 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,100 You know, I think I think right. I think like I think all of 1057 00:51:58,107 --> 00:52:00,200 these things are things that media These are going to have to 1058 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:01,800 work out. I think it's also interesting in 1059 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,000 terms of hiring and recruiting which I don't have to do anymore 1060 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,700 and my current job. But I used to have to do a lot 1061 00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:09,300 of is you you know, people can be very outspoken activist and 1062 00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:11,300 like that was the issue with the girl from the AP, right? 1063 00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:15,200 Like she's done something in college, I think to certain 1064 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,700 terms of activism and then that was like held against her for a 1065 00:52:17,700 --> 00:52:19,300 job interview. So media companies are going to 1066 00:52:19,308 --> 00:52:23,200 need to get over this whole idea of everyone being an old quote 1067 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,600 unquote reasonable white man. Hey, there's no one that there's 1068 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,300 no you know what you consider a mainstream. 1069 00:52:29,500 --> 00:52:31,800 Like yeah, it's just we need to we need to take. 1070 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,600 We need a more diverse media ecosystem and means think about 1071 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,300 just need to be about Gathering facts and Reporting them to 1072 00:52:37,300 --> 00:52:39,200 people. But if there's some transparency 1073 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:43,000 and like their history or their personal views, I feel like. 1074 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,700 And also, when you make those kinds of decisions, not letting 1075 00:52:45,700 --> 00:52:48,800 someone join the AP because they were somewhat and of an activist 1076 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,500 and in college. I feel like you're also. 1077 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,900 You gotta recognize the macro environment of the way that 1078 00:52:53,900 --> 00:52:56,000 people view media organizations now. 1079 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,400 And it's the one reason why I'm a little bit sympathetic to the 1080 00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:02,200 Is that attack us? And you know even you 1081 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:05,800 specifically is like they are reflective in a certain way of 1082 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,300 the way, a lot of Americans view media organizations. 1083 00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:11,900 The fact of the matter is we are held in a lower esteem than we 1084 00:53:11,900 --> 00:53:14,500 have been in decades and they've done it to themselves. 1085 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,500 They've done it to themselves. Let's be honest. 1086 00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:19,800 Because I hate this whole rumor, you're saying, no, maybe the 1087 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,500 media organizations have done it to themselves. 1088 00:53:22,500 --> 00:53:27,700 Like I think that they did not aptly recognize the rise of that 1089 00:53:27,700 --> 00:53:31,100 sentiment and they have If not a lot, you know, a lot of them 1090 00:53:31,100 --> 00:53:33,600 have not effectively been able to counter that again. 1091 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,300 West Lowry as really spoken so effectively on all of this and I 1092 00:53:37,300 --> 00:53:40,900 am not as prolific as him so I would encourage people to follow 1093 00:53:40,900 --> 00:53:43,300 him. But yeah and I think that's 1094 00:53:43,300 --> 00:53:46,600 something that I care. I care a lot of, I think it's 1095 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,000 important to have institutions but sometimes media companies 1096 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:51,900 write some really dumb stuff and I'm like, you know what? 1097 00:53:51,900 --> 00:53:54,900 You're making yourself irrelevant fine, you know like 1098 00:53:54,900 --> 00:53:58,300 you're just this is dumb this is why people turn away from 1099 00:53:58,300 --> 00:54:00,300 Legacy. Is Outlets. 1100 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,800 Sometimes it feels like the times the posts are more 1101 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:04,500 important. I mean, there are huge. 1102 00:54:04,500 --> 00:54:09,100 I mean, The Newsroom, we need a thriving in journalism is a 1103 00:54:09,100 --> 00:54:11,300 really important check on Power and democracy. 1104 00:54:11,300 --> 00:54:13,300 And there's a reason, people want to dismantle it. 1105 00:54:13,300 --> 00:54:16,900 I think news leaders across industry, need to recognize that 1106 00:54:16,900 --> 00:54:19,800 and not buy into these bad faith attacks. 1107 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,300 Like, that's yeah. Do you have anything? 1108 00:54:22,300 --> 00:54:25,100 You're eager to get on the record about or anything you 1109 00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:28,400 wanted to talk about before we sort of wrap up, sometimes 1110 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:29,500 people on the record. Yeah. 1111 00:54:29,500 --> 00:54:33,900 Yeah, they just want like, I just posted on Twitter. 1112 00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,700 No One Is Safe. No One Is Safe. 1113 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:50,800 No, I'm not a, I'm not a hater. I'm not about that. 1114 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,100 I don't participate in that kind of thing. 1115 00:54:53,500 --> 00:54:56,400 Well, I would just say please. Subscribe to my son, exact. 1116 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,300 I was up stack. Follow me. 1117 00:54:58,300 --> 00:55:00,300 Reach out, anytime if there's Then you think that I should 1118 00:55:00,300 --> 00:55:02,200 write about? I would love to hear it over a 1119 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,100 good source reporter move. It's like I just want more 1120 00:55:04,100 --> 00:55:07,300 resources like sources. Please find me, please listen to 1121 00:55:07,300 --> 00:55:10,800 me the VC people, by the way, got me so many sources when they 1122 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,300 were like canceled. Oh my God. 1123 00:55:13,300 --> 00:55:15,900 I mean, I never knew anyone in the VC world before and now I 1124 00:55:15,900 --> 00:55:19,200 have like, I mean, so many people were like, hit me up 1125 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:20,600 because of that and gave me news. 1126 00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:22,700 But like, where you were, you leveraging that to be in like 1127 00:55:22,700 --> 00:55:25,400 all right, what's the valuation of the next Cloud kitchens 1128 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:26,800 around? I mean, who is this? 1129 00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,000 Like can you can you get in on, you know, like The the 1130 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,100 particular bitchiness and fights that happened in the VC. 1131 00:55:33,100 --> 00:55:34,700 Well I'd love to read. I mean I guess that's partly 1132 00:55:34,700 --> 00:55:37,400 Eric's sub stack you don't really go too much into the 1133 00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:38,800 personal drama. I don't have Ari. 1134 00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,400 No, I don't cover Silicon Valley. 1135 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,000 I know you can give me free scoop sings. 1136 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,600 I'm like look at looking out like five years from now I don't 1137 00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,900 know any predictions about social media or like I mean you. 1138 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:54,600 Yeah you're the sort of whisper on this thing, I mean we didn't 1139 00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:55,900 end up really talking about be real. 1140 00:55:55,900 --> 00:55:58,500 Are you like optimistic on that or is there anywhere where 1141 00:55:58,500 --> 00:56:01,000 you'll sort? Layout sort of a prediction 1142 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,400 about where where we're heading. Yeah, I was going to write 1143 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,400 something about summer apps and how there's always kind of these 1144 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:12,100 viral apps during the summer and how hard it is to kind of like 1145 00:56:12,100 --> 00:56:14,600 the summer, like Pokemon go or let you see these things like 1146 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,300 the Khan, these viral phenomenons and they don't 1147 00:56:17,300 --> 00:56:20,000 always stay. And so with be real I mean I 1148 00:56:20,008 --> 00:56:24,100 know they're putting a ton into like marketing it and stuff like 1149 00:56:24,100 --> 00:56:27,600 that, I don't know that the next not to say that it won't be 1150 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,100 successful. And by the way, I love front 1151 00:56:29,100 --> 00:56:29,800 back. Back. 1152 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,900 So I was a big you know, proponent of the whole format. 1153 00:56:33,900 --> 00:56:43,800 This is this is no no. I was the biggest loser ever. 1154 00:56:43,900 --> 00:56:46,500 I don't think like the next like game-changing up is going to be 1155 00:56:46,500 --> 00:56:49,500 a photo app. So I think if be real is going 1156 00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:54,000 to be a lasting product it needs to evolve beyond what it is but 1157 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,500 it's so fun to write. I mean I've been on that app 1158 00:56:56,500 --> 00:57:00,700 since like the third week it launched and I I think it's cool 1159 00:57:00,700 --> 00:57:03,900 and funny and I've all push notifications turned off. 1160 00:57:03,900 --> 00:57:06,200 So I just post it when I want. And I don't really post it very 1161 00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:07,700 often. It really does kind of defang 1162 00:57:07,700 --> 00:57:09,400 the app. And I also wants to take had all 1163 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,600 my notifications turned off because I reset my phone and I 1164 00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,400 completely forgot about be real and it is be hearing about it 1165 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,600 immediately. Yeah, it just lives entirely on 1166 00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,400 the back of that. Be real is kind of the Nim 1167 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,400 selves social media Clubhouse. Clubhouse should have learned 1168 00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:23,900 that lesson Clubhouse, got addicted to the place where so 1169 00:57:23,900 --> 00:57:25,900 much and they'd screw. I think that's part of the 1170 00:57:25,900 --> 00:57:27,900 reason that the company flop. You think, are we in the 1171 00:57:27,908 --> 00:57:31,100 beginning of the tick-tock? Wave or we at the top of it or 1172 00:57:31,100 --> 00:57:34,100 like where we're not even close to the top right now. 1173 00:57:35,900 --> 00:57:37,900 I loved how. Oh my God, I had to do Tech 1174 00:57:37,900 --> 00:57:40,500 predictions in like 2019 on Sam busy or something. 1175 00:57:40,500 --> 00:57:43,100 And I was like, yeah, like Tic, Tacs going to be the new Domino 1176 00:57:43,100 --> 00:57:44,700 session at work. And somebody was like, oh, how 1177 00:57:44,700 --> 00:57:46,700 did you predict that? It's like, it's literally on by 1178 00:57:46,700 --> 00:57:50,300 like, a multi billion-dollar Tech Chinese Tech conglomerate 1179 00:57:50,300 --> 00:57:51,800 that spent a billion dollars in marketing. 1180 00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,900 And one year, like does, it's not, you're not a genius to 1181 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,300 think that it might do well. So I don't have any real wisdom. 1182 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,600 I don't know. I mean You know, you can spend a 1183 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,000 ton of money trying to push something. 1184 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,500 Sure. He doesn't tap into some sort of 1185 00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:08,800 Basil, elements of human nature that causes you to go crazy 1186 00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,200 because of the you're addicted to it. 1187 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,600 I think I'd have been so successful around the world to 1188 00:58:12,700 --> 00:58:13,300 that it. Yeah. 1189 00:58:13,300 --> 00:58:14,600 But no you're 100%. Right? 1190 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:16,100 I mean Facebook. Does that every six months 1191 00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:17,800 before you right? Right. 1192 00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:22,600 Yeah I mean what is the best thing you think to come out of 1193 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:23,900 tick-tock? I mean what do you think has 1194 00:58:23,900 --> 00:58:27,300 been like the most heartening aspect of the culture that it is 1195 00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,600 created over the millions of cultures is Adorn its user 1196 00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,200 interface or make me feel good about Tick-Tock. 1197 00:58:33,500 --> 00:58:36,100 Yeah we can close on that sense of it make me feel good about 1198 00:58:36,100 --> 00:58:38,900 Tick-Tock. Yeah I mean I what I think is 1199 00:58:38,900 --> 00:58:41,400 really interesting is it's broken this whole like follow 1200 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:45,100 based system of social media and it's really I think they've just 1201 00:58:45,100 --> 00:58:49,000 nailed Discovery so well, right? And I think that's that's what's 1202 00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:50,900 exciting about it. Like you can really go down 1203 00:58:50,900 --> 00:58:54,100 these rabbit holes. I hate the video for you know I 1204 00:58:54,100 --> 00:58:57,900 don't want video to be like I'm not a video person so I think 1205 00:58:57,900 --> 00:59:01,400 like that parts. Little bit of a I don't want 1206 00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,400 video to be the dominant mode of expression. 1207 00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:05,800 I do think that like, that's something I like about Twitter 1208 00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,700 is being able to write but Tick-Tock has such incredible 1209 00:59:08,700 --> 00:59:11,000 creative tools and the stuff. The way that it's kind of like 1210 00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,400 allowed people to be creative is pretty cool. 1211 00:59:13,500 --> 00:59:15,600 This actually may be circles back to the first thing we 1212 00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,900 talked about on this and we can maybe end here. 1213 00:59:18,100 --> 00:59:21,000 I mean, do you worry that the follow base culture going away 1214 00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,200 and being purely about Discovery does kind of dissociate, 1215 00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,400 people's connection to the creators are influencers that 1216 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,200 they watch? I mean like VidCon. 1217 00:59:29,300 --> 00:59:31,700 As an example of this, The Tick-Tock creators didn't have 1218 00:59:31,700 --> 00:59:36,100 the YouTuber lines of years past because people one could argue 1219 00:59:36,100 --> 00:59:38,800 didn't feel as emotionally invested, para socially 1220 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,700 connected to, you know, the people that they were watching 1221 00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:45,900 on Tick-Tock I mean, is there something alienating about this 1222 00:59:45,900 --> 00:59:48,900 format of, of consuming content versus following it? 1223 00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,600 That does sort of, you know, reverberate in a negative way. 1224 00:59:52,900 --> 00:59:55,900 No, I think 100% which I love that Business, Insider piece 1225 00:59:55,900 --> 00:59:58,900 that got into this because I would have written the same 1226 00:59:58,900 --> 01:00:01,400 thing. And kind of tried to in that one 1227 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,000 paragraph of my story. But like, yeah, it's also just 1228 01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,900 the rate at which, you know, you spend so much more time with 1229 01:00:07,900 --> 01:00:09,300 YouTubers, like you're sitting down. 1230 01:00:09,300 --> 01:00:12,600 You're watching long form content and it takes time to 1231 01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:14,500 kind of subscribe and find people. 1232 01:00:14,500 --> 01:00:16,900 Whereas Tick-Tock you're just getting barrage with new people 1233 01:00:16,900 --> 01:00:21,200 every day and you don't form up on do you don't have that same? 1234 01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:23,000 I think that can be kind of good too. 1235 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,000 I think like the whole pair of social thing is really 1236 01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:28,400 unhealthy. I'm crazy about keeping my life 1237 01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,700 off the internet. No one knows anything about my 1238 01:00:30,700 --> 01:00:33,600 life. And I think it's very scary for 1239 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,100 the creators and I think it's not a great like that parrot 1240 01:00:36,100 --> 01:00:38,700 that deep parasocial bond can be harmful for the creators and 1241 01:00:38,700 --> 01:00:41,000 harmful for the audience. So I think it's, I don't know, 1242 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,100 it's kind of good to have a little bit less of that 1243 01:00:43,100 --> 01:00:47,200 interesting, but I do see lots of sad tick talkers, who are 1244 01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:51,200 like I have a million followers in my videos are getting like 1245 01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,400 10,000 views and there is. It does feel like, I mean the 1246 01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,800 beauty of like sub stack is like once I have you, it goes to your 1247 01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,800 inbox whereas ticked Is literally the opposite where 1248 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:02,300 they sort of like, don't really care. 1249 01:01:02,500 --> 01:01:04,900 What people say they're following is, pure is purely a 1250 01:01:04,900 --> 01:01:08,300 vanity metric and you know, I know that because I have half a 1251 01:01:08,300 --> 01:01:11,300 million followers and they're all people that just mostly 1252 01:01:11,300 --> 01:01:12,900 think. I might be with a famous 1253 01:01:12,900 --> 01:01:14,800 Tick-Tock ER and they followed me for that reason. 1254 01:01:15,100 --> 01:01:18,700 But yeah, it's I think it's but that decoupling I think is very 1255 01:01:18,700 --> 01:01:20,800 jarring for people. Right? 1256 01:01:21,100 --> 01:01:23,000 Totally. All right well I'm sure we'll 1257 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,700 have you back on. Thank you so much for coming on 1258 01:01:25,700 --> 01:01:26,900 the show. We really appreciate it. 1259 01:01:26,900 --> 01:01:28,900 Thanks Taylor your yeah everyone should. 1260 01:01:29,300 --> 01:01:31,100 Others work if they haven't already which I'm sure they do, 1261 01:01:31,100 --> 01:01:34,100 she really is the best at this thing, and it's fascinating. 1262 01:01:34,100 --> 01:01:36,700 So I highly recommend people, keep keep reading. 1263 01:01:36,700 --> 01:01:39,200 Thank you. I'm such a fan of your guys work 1264 01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,100 and Tom. I've read your stories for years 1265 01:01:41,100 --> 01:01:58,500 and XO it's cool to get to chat. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, 1266 01:01:58,600 --> 01:01:59,900 goodbye. Goodbye. 1267 01:01:59,900 --> 01:01:59,900 Goodbye. Goodbye. 1268 01:01:59,900 --> 01:02:00,500 Goodbye.