Welcome. How's it going, everybody?
Welcome back to dead cat. This is Tom here.
I'm with Eric and returning Champion.
Our first time. Second appearance on the show,
Aaron Griffith of the New York Times.
Welcome back, Aaron. Thanks for having me.
That's quite an honor. Yeah, before we get into the
specifics of the trial itself, Aaron is, of course, covering
the theranos trial for the New York Times.
Gavel to gavel. She's all over it.
I want it. I understand there's a bit of
breaking news from you because last time one of the big
discussion or topics of discussion that we had was what
you were able to eat, like just how you were able to find time
and the answer was actually incredibly depressing but it did
get a lot of attention. So it sounds to me that there's
been something of a development in terms of your break and
eating habits at the trial. Can you fill us in on what's
going on there? Yeah, so, yeah.
So this is This is really important and I'm glad that
we're getting a, you know, out of the way right at the top of
the episode. So I've stopped eating the
Starbucks sandwiches on principle.
It's just too depressing and I've also now in all of them
like enough times that like I can't anymore.
So I bought a giant box of Luna bars that I think I am just
having I have them in my purse at all times and so now I don't
have to leave for lunch because often I'm trying to file because
we're now filing kind of daily stories and to bring it.
For everyone. I have shared some with our
reporting fellow Aaron. Woohoo has been down there with
me for some over just within the times.
You don't give excellent protocol or anyone else.
Everyone else is like packing. Their own peanut butter and
jellies or something. I haven't gotten that advanced
yet. So yeah I'm just after this
trial these, these specifically the lemon ones I'm never going
to be able to eat another one of probably eating like 50.
So we are in the homestretch of the trial.
Yeah, the prosecution has rested their case.
Why don't you actually summarize for Us what the prosecution's
case, essentially was like how did it, how did it, you know,
what was like its strongest point that it was trying to make
to the jury? Yeah.
So the prosecution at the start outlined I think six or seven
areas of alleged fraud and they pretty much went through all of
them with almost every count. So there's eleven counts to of
conspiracy to commit wire fraud and nine of water fraud and
they're all tied to specific investors or patients.
There's like I think a couple patients that are in there, one
got thrown out and then one related to like an ad
advertisement purchase and so the areas of the fraud, our
military, she lied about their not having military contracts.
I'll see pharmaceutical company. She lied about like their
relationship. Chip in their work with
pharmaceutical companies. The Walgreens rollout she
they're alleging that she lied about how well that was going
when she knew it was falling apart and telling investors
they'd be you know National and thousands of stores.
When in fact they weren't there's the financial
projections climbing fairness is going to have a billion dollars
in Revenue in 2015 when it had like almost zero and and and
those were actually even given to investors.
I feel like the end of the year in like October, so they knew
they were nowhere close. And then there may be a A couple
other ones but those are those are the ones that I've paid
closest attention to. And throughout all of it, they
have to show that she intended originally defrauded.
So they're also constantly tying all of these claims to her
directly basically showing her. Oh, I forgot.
Sorry. Let me go back.
The lab. She knew the obviously that the
tests weren't working and that she told people that the third
party devices that they had modified third-party devices
instead of using their own proprietary technology.
So anyway, they have gone. Through and basically lay it out
that entire case, which they had previewed in the beginning.
And I think they've pretty much delivered on on most of that
stuff. And then, of course, the defense
has worked, very hard to debunk it, right.
We'll get to that in a second, but when you bring up Elizabeth
herself, and what she knew or didn't know, I mean, it's one
thing to mislead investors, but another thing to do it
knowingly, and in some way provably, you know, do it while
telling yourself boy, I'm really pulling a fast.
One on everyone here, right, right.
Her whole defense is that Is naivete.
Could you kind of explain to me a little bit about, you know,
the guilty mind aspect of it and how the prosecution has been
trying to make the case. That not only did she mislead
people but she did it knowing that what she was doing full
well was not legal. Yeah and so this has been a big
part of her testimony. So are the cross examination of
her because until this until she testified all the evidence for
that part of it was circumstantial, you know, they
have to show that she knew about this by showing she was told Old
or by seeing emails that she cc'ed on, you know.
But now with her on the stand, the prosecutors can just really
Hammer her on like, but you knew this was wrong, you knew, and
because you knew that fairness test were struggling you and so
they did that over and over and just like so repetitively.
Like one of the ones that stuck out to me was around the
military. You know, they asked her like
ten different ways. The same question like you knew
that their nose Vices were never used in Afghanistan.
They were never used in the Middle East.
They were never on a Medevac. They were never used by the
military, like just like ten different times in a row.
So, the jury, like, clearly gets the point.
She knew that this stuff was never being used and she's
trying to split a hair and claim.
I never really exactly specifically kind of told
investors that I hinted at it and they jumped to their own
conclusions. She was obviously very prepared
for the, the, you know, defenses questioning.
She had all her answers ready with the cross.
She was pretty prepared and she did a lot of, I don't know, I
don't recall. And so she had like, a crystal
clear memory for all questions, asked by her lawyers and then
when the prosecution asked, she's right kind of funny how
that works. She said no a lot to a lot of
their questions that were leading and then she would kind
of like try to split hairs and be like well you know so she
sent this, Roger par La Fortune article that had a lot of
incorrect information in it, out to investors as promotion.
And they're using that as part of their argument saying like
you knew this was wrong and yet you still sent it to investors
and never said it was wrong. And she is say, you know, she's
trying to like basically say, well, I didn't I sent it to them
and I said it contains some information about their nose,
you know? So like selected.
And I thought, yes, yeah, exactly.
She's trying to she's kind of trying to do that around a lot
of things. And like with parle off, you
know, she told him where She told him, like we can do all
these tests and we don't, she didn't.
She told him that she didn't say, we don't by third-party
devices. She said, we do all of our tests
on our own machines that are proprietary.
And I didn't tell him like the difference because it's a trade
secret. And so, there's just been a lot
of, like, kind of weaselly. And so it would seem hard for
any, it would seem hard for any, like, rational jury to see that
not as bright, navigating your personal lives, like, dealing
with Liars, like, Like they're few Liars that just want to get
caught out right in line. They would much prefer to let
you come to beliefs that are useful to them.
Like, yeah, I'm still busy with Coach to say things like that
because I just feel like the concept of lying and a liar is a
very broad-based accepted like people have a visceral reaction
to someone doesn't matter if you understand the industry or not,
people have like a spidey sense of like, if this person is lying
to me, I don't like that person, you know, people related to like
their jobs or their family members and I think the defense
has Has countered that with two things for one.
They've had her admit to mistakes.
So they've tried to like make her more credible by saying.
Oh I regret the way we handle the Wall Street Journal article
or I regret the way that we dealt with Erica Chang or I
regret putting those logos on those pharmaceutical documents.
If I had known that they were misleading, so they're trying to
get credibility there and they're just trying to
complicate things. So they, you know, know this is
a jury of late. People who are not super
well-versed necessarily in the inner workings of Finance
business technology science. And so like I think if they just
make it really complicated and then they make it seem like
homes, you know was just a little bit confused or maybe
Miss keep miscommunicated and other people didn't like
understand her or they wanted to believe other things than, like,
maybe it was just really complicated and a
miscommunication, a big piece of it is how much Like her Co Sunny
new verses, which she knew right?
She's blamed a lot of it on him. I mean that's that has been a
tour. Yeah, I want to actually want to
back into Sonny for a bit because of that kind of speaks
to sort of the emotional elements of her testimony,
right? I mean, so it may be just
rewinding for a bit. Let me set it up a little bit
better. I remember for in following you
in a few other reporters on Twitter when the prosecution
rested and the defense began, you know their case was it an
open question whether or not Elizabeth Holmes was going to
testify because So just from the tweets it seemed like you guys
were all very, you know excited. I was shocked.
I mean, really the whole time we've been speculating, will
she? Or will she not testify and all
you know we've all quoted experts saying like why it's a
huge risk and why she shouldn't or why she wouldn't or why?
It's so rare and white collar crimes for the defendant to ever
testify. And, you know, that on the other
hand, people are like, well, she's a big risk taker and this
is part of her defense or lawyers have said she's going to
testify. I am like this is her best shot.
And so anyway I everything about this trial has been
unpredictable and so it definitely came as a surprise.
To me particular did you find out?
Well, I was sitting in the courtroom, it was the very few
of the days have gone. All our of the weeks have gone
all five days but it was for whatever scheduling reason five
days in a row, I was exhausted. It was 3:00 like one hour before
court was about to be out. Out and like I know other
journalists were thinking of leaving.
I was like do I need to really need to stay?
Like this is pretty boring like the defense's argument had not
so far. They had had like, a former lab
director and and like a paralegal from their own Law
Firm testifying. And then, you know, we're all
like, oh, what's going to happen this last hour?
And then they called her to the stand and oh my God, I like
almost had a heart attack. It was absolutely not what I had
expected. You know, we had Paradise live
blog are like you know, sort of a live feed that we were going
to spin up just in case. Like I had a story pre-written
just in case but like I was not ready for it to happen at that
moment at 3:00 after the very at the very tail end of a super
long week. He should have to call her when
it's time, you would think they'd want to start the day
with her and have it be sort of finish.
I feel like it was almost a good way for her to like get
acclimated to the court. Like it was low stake.
They didn't talk about anything important on that.
At first, our it was just like getting her like, used to being
in the corner. That's smart.
I see it kind of like screwed the journalist though because
it's like, all right, I've been here all for three months,
almost every day and like, I should at least get some head
start on like, getting some exclusive information but then
like, so we got really nothing out of that first hour and then
Monday, of course, everybody flies in.
You know, everyone who has at the trial, right working
journalists Yeah, it sucks. We got no circus atmosphere that
had probably died down as people were like, man, trials can be
really boring and it's just like a recitation of documents and
all this other like oh here's the star witness, who is going
to be played by, you know, Jennifer Lawrence in a couple of
months. Yeah, she's showing up at like
325 on a, this is why the media is broken, you know, the
outlets, the put in the work. Yeah, this that's specifically
is exactly the crew system needs to write the local news cameras
that have been covering like shoplifting in San Francisco,
like, suddenly turned around and we're rushing down the
courthouse. There were a lot of Spectators
that I mean, cuz there's been a Spectators throughout, but there
are a lot of Spectators that day that left at lunch because it
was so boring. And I was like, no man.
It's like the people that were leaving Dodger Stadium in 89
because I thought the World Series was over right?
Right. Yeah.
Miami serious. Yeah, right.
So so but it seems that the core of her case Beyond just her
being naive. That she was a victim.
She was a victim of abuse and that she was being manipulated
by Sonny bhawani. Now, I remember like before the
trial even started, people were suggesting that that could be
one route that they take. I don't know if they probably
would have needed to call her if that was going to be the route
but totally but because their relationship was a secret.
And so really like she's one of the only people that can even
testify about it, right? They had, they had indicated,
they might do this in filings, so we had that preview, but it
was still on Open question, mark of whether not, she'd actually
go for it. I'm sure they're waiting to see
how everything else went before deciding.
Yeah, and just from the reading of it, it sounded like it was
fairly emotional. Like she went, you know, when
she took the stand it was describing, you know, her
allegations of abuse, she was crying, she was tearful and I
did that surprise you at all. I mean, obviously she's someone
who in the media has been depicted as like this kind of
stony-faced monotone. Baritone, you know, uncaring
unblinking person did she Blink by the way, when she was on the
stand? Yeah. and I made a joke once
where I thought I had noticed that she was like, Blinking a
lot while looking forward. And I was like, a she'd just
getting all her blinks out now. Robert like so she can then
stare when. But yeah, it's also a way to get
the tears going, not just as their crocodile tears.
She has made some intense eye contact and when the jurors were
walking in and out anytime she would try to individually, make
eye contact with each one of them.
My God maybe only one ever really looked up at her but yes
there's that one invested in her company that's in her, you know,
morning notebook routine, stare intently and to each jurors.
I mean, so one thing that came up that I thought was really
interesting in this argument about the emotional and physical
or sexual abuse that she that happened in her relationship
with Sonny about wani which to be fair.
This guy's 20 years older than her and he was like her business
mentor. And so, I mean, I think that
felt very credible to me that they had a lopsided dynamic in
their relationship. But doesn't necessarily didn't
really connect it very well to the actual fraud. but and so
that's going to be, I think the challenge for the jury but like,
one of the things I thought so interesting is like, so all the
investors that we've heard talk about how impressive she was and
how she was so put together and confident and like, you know,
unlike a 19 year old girl might be, you know, and that was all
because Sonny was coaching her to be like that he was basically
telling her and kind of he was berating her but he was also
telling Her like don't say awesome, don't giggle, don't
like, you know, put your hands in your pockets, don't gesture,
you know, he was like really kind of like pushing her to
present herself that way. And it worked.
How old was she for some of this?
Well she she met him when she was in college.
So like 1819. But then when During the period
of the alleged fraud, she would have been in her 20s.
Late 20s early 30s. Okay.
But I mean, some of the investors met her In like the
early 2000s when their nose had first started.
So they were testifying about all the way back at that point.
Like the Don Lucas's is, it was it a son or nephew anyway?
Yeah, so Insider we ran a piece I Believe by Adam Le schinsky
saying that her taking the trial and the tenor and pitch of her
testimony turned the tide that basically it's suddenly been
suddenly became because she made it about her.
A victim. And a lot of the most devious
acts of the company's life, were the result of, you know, the
Svengali Sunnyvale wani that she was merely a naive and innocent
bystander or like a puppet for the true evil.
That was, I mean what, what did you bought into this now?
He, yeah, let's this is going to be an IT situation where Eric
screams at me, I did not read the story, but the headline of
the story, I read the story I'm Adam with his writing has been
good. Yeah.
So I don't want you to make Adams case for him.
But what do you think about at least that idea that, you know,
suddenly the momentum shifted entirely towards the defense, I
have no idea what the jury is thinking and so I that's one
part of it that's challenge. But I do think it kind of
upended the dynamic, for sure. I mean, this has been a very
long, very tedious white collar crime case about business and
And Tech and Science, and it's just been like so in the weeds
and now we have this, extremely emotional narrative injected
into it. Like, it's hard, not to only
focus on that. And I feel like the jury is
that's going to be at the heart of a lot of their discussions.
I'm on, or maybe they decide to throw it out, I don't know.
But like, well, that and actually to me when the
prosecution has said, they plan to file a motion to throw out
some of that, because they did not the defense did not bring in
an Expert testimony or expert witness to testify as to the
relevance of it, to this fraud case.
Don't you want to throw things out before the jury hears,
right? They can't.
Yeah, they can't like, this is even if they remove it, it's not
like the jury can like special emotional case, right?
I mean, like, it's one thing to material fact.
It is kind of the same as like when the when they ask
questions. They know they're not allowed to
ask, and then they it gets objected.
And then the judge says, okay. Ignore that it's like, well,
they already heard it. And that's kind of like a little
bit of a slimeball move but they vote will science.
Have definitely used it. Okay.
Sorry. This is a very basic question,
but like Elizabeth and Sonny are both on trial in this case or
they are separate cases. No, sonny is separate has a
separate case separate trial that will start next year.
They were they should have been tried together but they got
their cases. Severed.
And part of the reason that they argued for successfully for it,
was that she said she can't be in the same room as him.
Him because of this abuse. And I mean it kind of works the
both of their advantages because they might be able to both get
off by blaming each other. But they're they're both very
important and relevant in each side's case because it want to
of the charges are conspiracy. And so they conspired together
and we're seeing all these text messages where they're allegedly
conspiring. You know when you contrast it
with her being able to answer these very specific rapid-fire
questions Like yes, yes, yes. And from her lawyers and then
and so a lot of the actually the prosecution has done a lot of
hammering her on the I don't know.
Like he'll say that's your testimony.
That this is your inhale, repeat it back to her.
This is your testimony. That you don't know this thing.
And I mean, we'll see if that if that would be infuriating to
watch. I mean, it's just but it's
interesting. I mean, it seems to me like most
of the defense's case is that she was a victim.
Not that an end if she misled people was only because Does
that is the nature of raising money where you have to Project,
Blue Sky Futures in order to get people excited about it and if
it doesn't work out you know, don't hate the player, hate the
game and and does she seem like a cult leader like just you have
a reality Distortion field or she seems.
She's trying to project being a little bit more me core.
How much does it seem like you could see why a bunch of
investors were wooed by her. I mean when you when she is gets
a question that she liked Sure that she knows the answer to.
She does this thing which I think you can see on any video
interview of her back in the in the Heyday where she like nods
and makes this really sincere eye contact and like has this
like kind of like kind of weird smile and yeah you can see how
it's like very practiced and it's like it.
You can see how it's compelling especially for people who want
to, you know, believe in what she's pitching.
I think it could also be be off-putting, knowing what we
know. Now, you're not about to join
her call. You're like, right, it's either
like charming and effects. It's a thin line between
charming and effective in a sociopath.
Yeah. It's kind of like, when customer
service people are like, like, handling, you, with kid gloves
and you're like, just just do think your name over and over
again? Yeah, stop doing that.
It's like really off-putting. Let me give you the money,
Elizabeth. How's the jury doing?
What's your sense? Just this many weeks into this
whole thing. I know there was a bit of drama.
Leon people wanted to take vacations.
What did we talk about the sodoku player?
I don't think so about halfway through one of the jurors was
dismissed for playing sudoku during testimony.
One of the other jurors knocked her out and they had she her
excuse was that she's like very fidgety and she needs to like
have something to do with her hands.
And so it was just to keep her occupied.
Did that'll play out during the trial, was there just like that,
you know, like a teacher calling out a students like, what do you
have there? No.
They did it in the judge's Chambers and so we didn't find
out about. We just heard that a juror was
dismissed and we didn't find out about it until it came out later
and the transcripts and she was like, very apologetic and she's
like, I'm swear. I'm taking this seriously.
And, and essentially the both, the sides, agreed to just let
her go. I must be mortifying to tell
your family, you've been gone for like or you're not gone.
But, you know, your things you wanted to crochet, but like that
seemed inappropriate. Do they let you do that.
No, I don't think. I mean, no.
I think that would be worse. Probably there goes the book
deal. But okay, so we lost one for
playing sudoku but generally, I mean, what's your senses to
their energy level, you know, this many weeks and I would just
be flagging, like, I couldn't pay attention.
I know it's crazy and they seem like they seem engaged, but it's
so hard to tell, because they have masks on, and they really
are not reacting to anything. And like, there's either all
taking notes, There is one guy who likes top proceedings and
like, waved his arm and we're like, oh no, what's happening?
And oh, his pen, ran out of ink. And so like, somebody had to
bring a pen over to him. And I'm like, man, I mean, so
they seem they seem pretty engaged.
I don't know. Sometimes I look and I'm like,
is that person sleeping, but their exhibits are below them.
So I think they're just looking at the exhibits, but I don't
know, man. It's, it's impressive.
When the judge was planning the timing for the rest of the
trial, like, I thought I would be in court today.
A and yesterday and you know, most of next week.
And for some reason, closings aren't starting until like a
full week after the prosecutor, the defense rested and the jury
is, they're like, oh yeah, we're fine to deliberate on Christmas
Eve. We don't care.
Like they don't seem like stressed which is kind of crazy
and impressive, so forth. When's this thing gonna get
wrapped up or I hope Before Christmas?
It's so there's two days of Closing statements or arguments
next week and then it will go to the jury maybe as early as next
Friday. And then the week of the 20th is
all open for deliberation. So I hope you know, it takes him
a day or two and they come back and we can all have a Christmas.
Yeah. Well then you'll have to talk to
the jurors, right? I mean that's always the
exciting moment post-trial when they finally.
So, that's Morgan V, right? I mean, yeah.
Now we'll have to do it to. I'm a little stressed about that
honestly. Because who knows if they're
going to want to Talk to us or just like, get out of there and
yeah, I want to know everyone. That's what everyone wants to
know. Is like what the discussions
inside that room were right? Right, depending on the outcome.
So my last question for you, Aaron, because we gotta let you
go is So is Elizabeth Halsey product of Silicon Valley?
Oh my God. I think about this so much
because I've gotten, you know, a lot of VCS in my DMs, like, come
on. This is not a pie made the
mistake of engaging in that debate and I am still getting
mentions from it. Yeah.
And I think I need to like, just dig in and do a story on it,
but, you know, some people are really worked up about this.
They're so angry. They don't want to be associated
with this at all Eric's buddy. Keith raboy said that when a
reporter Stood that she was a private Silicon Valley said that
was more, there's more untruthful that anything Trump
has ever said. Oh my God, oh my God, that's
ridiculous. Wow, what I mean.
Okay, so just the facts here. Palo Alto is in Silicon Valley.
Stanford is very closely associated with Silicon Valley.
She went to Stanford the Hoover Institute as Stanford is where
she recruited all of her board her initial.
Mr. Don Lucas legendary Silicon Valley investor, Tim Draper also
like fifth generation or whatever, you know, Silicon
Valley investor and on down the line and she had a number of VCS
and they the the current, you know, industry and commentators
want to dismiss them and be like they're not real Silicon Valley
visas. We all pass on a great.
Many people did pass on this and many people said it didn't pass
the smell test, whatever, like that's fantastic, but And shirt
DeVos the DeVos family, the Murdock's The Waltons, the Cox
family. Those are not Silicon Valley
investors but like she was still following the Playbook, she was
trying to emulate Steve Jobs. She was physically here in
Silicon Valley, that all of that makes me like and it's sort of
it's sort of if it's into like how Elizabeth Holmes lies right.
Instead of directly telling you sort of a misstatement.
It's Letting you come away with an impression and sort of
letting the chips fall where they are.
And I do think there's a degree to which Silicon Valley culture
is also sort of very interested in that kind of line.
Like, you know, Marc Andreessen would block people who didn't
like their nose, his wife wrote an op-ed defending Elizabeth
Holmes, you know, there can I really something really quickly
because when that was going on I just Googled dfj fairness and
there is a Facebook post from dfj that is still up that says
under dfj proud to have back. Elizabeth Holmes and fairness
for over a decade as her very first, investor homes is
company. There are no stands on the cusp
of unleashing, a revolution and Drug development and home health
care. That could spawn a new industry
much like the bay area's Genentech did Ababa.
This is still fuck it up there under D fj's payment.
When was that published, March, 1st, 2014, I can send it in the,
okay, so that's that's before the the downfall but yeah, yeah,
yeah. But if you solve, if Silicon
Valley didn't want to get blamed for their nose, they could have
taken a principal. Then, you know, we could have a
alternative story where she tries to raise money from.
Some very credentialed, VC, and they're the ones blowing, the
whistle and saying she's trying to defraud us.
Well, there's some of the things she's saying isn't true.
Instead, it was, you know, her employees that blew the whistle.
So I just think their failure to stand up if they were to say
anything. And, and also they were
constantly, sort of rejecting sort of push back on Twitter.
You know, it felt like the presumption.
It was a it was Dave Moore and didn't Dave Moore in criticized
on the information? Yeah it's that but I'm saying
like every Silicon Valley character was still sort of like
trying to show their credentials for how you could be raw and
supportive and was not at all. Trying to say o, Silicon Valley
is actually about being Discerning and separating sort
of the good from the bad and so then when it's really bad for
them. Yeah, of course you're going to
get blamed because you didn't take any sort of proactive
action to separate yourself. From a and so now you're mad at
people for attaching new to it when everything you said is
absolutely true. So I do agree their failure to
say anything at the time. Partially justifies why they get
tagged with it. Even if, you know, probably the
most directly, you know, family has is, are the biggest it also
speaks to, like, a current circle, the wagons and
groupthink mentality from a lot of VCS right now, which is at
the Press, is out to get us and there are Comparing us to the
worst of what the, you know, Peter and every has other words,
if you were to extend that to any other industry would make
any sense, if you were to say that someone who makes a movie
that bombs had nothing to do with Hollywood culture or that
Bernie Madoff had nothing to do with Wall Street culture.
He's like go ahead and try that argument right away.
They are products. They are products of the world
that you though. You're successful.
And hopefully on the up-and-up are not examples of.
It's still in the same. You're still swimming in the
same pool. Right.
Many of the strategies that she used are used by other Founders.
They just don't go that far. They just don't like get, you
know, they just don't take it to the level of actual fraud or
some do when they don't get invited for it.
I think, if Silicon Valley wants people to know what they stand
for. They have to say it explicitly,
but we give us one concluding. What's been your favorite
vignette or moment? Or like, doesn't have to be
serious, or like, who's the, who's the celebrity?
Sir, who's the, like, what's, what sort of the funny or I
would be trying to be made along the way.
Elizabeth Holmes, family members, behaving, strangely, or
what's, what's going on? It's not making this story, that
sort of like the talk among reporters.
So much for the gadflies. Like, who are you going to miss
when? You don't have to go to the
courthouse. There's so much weird stuff that
has happened. Like I, I like inadvertently got
in a fight with this guy who had driven up from LA and chugged 5,
red bulls and was like confused about the order of the line.
I'm going in and like, there's this cut off at 34 and so
there's actually a lot of a lot at stake.
If you're under 30 for you, get in the courtroom and if you're
over you again, the mean number of number of people not to yes.
Yes. Ari.
Okay. And so anyway that was a little
bit dramatic. What were you?
I was he was trying to cut in front of me.
Basically. I was maybe like 32 or
something. Oh Jesus that's high-stakes.
How was he was? Just trying to force it.
Like he was confused because there are multiple Scots in
line. He was confused.
Which Scott, he was. And anyway, we it all worked
out, it was fine, but there's always a little bit of like line
drama and there's a lot of Spectators.
I don't know if you guys read about, there was one group that
came they were selling black turtlenecks, red lipstick.
They kept getting in trouble though because you're not
allowed to sell things on federal property.
And so, the security guard kept yelling at them and they're
like, no, it's performance art. And oh my God, I got to use that
one. There was there's a A guy who
has hung around a few times. And when Holmes walks in, he
yells you go girl, boss your girl boss.
There's been some tarot cards playing in the line because
we're sitting there for five hours every day before the court
even opens. And so we have a lot of we have
a lot of time to kill all of you guys.
Well, we did a reading for homes and it was it looked pretty
positive for her. Wow.
I mean, that's what Colleen.
Yeah, I think that. Yeah, that would definitely
affect the betting markets. So, What was your read and
remember the cars. So, I'm a terrible person but I
think one of them was like the was about was like a kind of a
girl boss card. And then I think one of them was
like, is that a real Taro? This was the interpretation of
the person who's doing it and one of them was maybe something
about, oh crap now I'm sorry, I'm totally the great unblinking
eye. Yeah there was one about like
fortune or Having having things work out for you.
There's one of maybe about deception.
I really can't remember now. Sorry?
Disappointing. Have a break for the price of
anything. Anyway, Aaron this is great.
Yeah, thanks so much for joining.
Enjoy your days off and hopefully enjoy having a real
Christmas. Yeah, yeah.
Thanks, I'm not San Jose. All right.
Cool. That was great.
Oh, the judge also keeps keeps calling the trial a moveable
feast which like it's really a fan, really upset.
Me because I'm like this could not be further from.
I'm sitting on the ground for find a bar wrappers all around
you. Yeah, eating Luna bars.
This is this could not be farther than Hemingway's pairs.
Yeah. Kicking me the recap on Aaron.
Did she think that Elizabeth Holmes was convincing?
Hmm, didn't seem like it. No, and I'd asked her because
Insider ran a piece by a demotion ski actually saying
that. Like, when Elizabeth Holmes
testified and gave a t read, you know, whatever tearful
explanation of how she was manipulated and abused by
Sunnyvale hwanhee, that that changed the entire momentum of
the trial into the defense's favor.
And she was, I think a little more skeptical.
All right. Yeah, but she's not I don't
think she can really say outright.
That was my interpretation. But what is this?
Chris Dixon tweet. So, so what happened?
When I can give you the whole rundown?
It's like the Twitter recap section.
Yeah. So some Bloomberg reporter
tweeted out, something to the effect of like someone just told
me that crypto is is Mary Kay for males and I'm dying right
now or some like internet and collect Medics company that You
have to uses anymore. Yeah.
So it was like a pretty weak joke, like a 4 out of 10 but it,
it, you know, became viral because that's what succeeds
these days. So we got like seven thousand
retweets. You know, I blame Tick-Tock for
that cuz it's made us all laugh at things aren't funny anymore.
It's all funny, especially reporters, Tracy.
All the way. Just saw someone described
crypto as Mary, Kay for young men and now I'm dying.
Yeah, it has like 13,000 awful's, awful, just no effort,
no degree of Uncle teacher. I see I'm say it's just a way
for Bloomberg to try and insult web three yet again on.
December 7th. This is Chris Dixon.
Yeah, so then he has a follow-up tweet to that.
That says, this is why we should never talk to reporters.
All they do is use it as an opportunity to dunk on you.
Later on Twitter, on December 8th.
You says whether he is unusual in that innovators dilemma plays
out at every level including media coverage.
And then he says, which is also why it's a great opportunity for
up-and-coming journalists, you know, they know that they need
your illness but they can't. Themselves, but should on
journalists constantly. It's, yeah, I'm trying to find.
I think maybe Everything's changed since I left, but I
vaguely recall. When I lived in California, that
a 16z actually didn't hate the kind of like that.
I mean, it was like, it was mixed, right?
Like, they like this one. I like to say, I didn't when
they didn't like any normal company, so it's just now, like,
just a all, they're all out there, like, no, never mind.
I mean, Chris Dixon is super anti-media, I mean, definitely,
I'm looking through all this Former board member at BuzzFeed.
So a big led the entries that investment in in bone.
So oh yeah. Oh yeah.
One of my favorite investment posts so but they're the must
still be locked up. I mean, the IPO don't let anyone
else. Well, he stepped down from the
board so I don't know what BuzzFeed injuries and state
currently is in BuzzFeed, but yes, they invested in 2014.
I remember this because it wasn't long after I joined the
information and Chris Dixon put out a post explaining their
investment saying that Actually, BuzzFeed is a tech company if
you want a real web 3 News go direct and follow primary
sources, I mean, clearly the flip side of this is that
Andreessen is super Vindicated in their anti-media stance.
And recent is super Vindicated this week because of that
businessweek piece that basically said that Marc
Andreessen and Ben Horowitz were starting to phase back their
involvement in the firm when they seem like the most
workaholic. And if anything I would say, The
Narrative and reason is that those two are domineering over
the firm that there's a very clear hierarchy within the firm.
And there is a lot of jealousy among Partners about who gets
status and sort of what the pecking order is.
So I was very surprised, sure, they're moving places and like
we're all remote now. But the idea that they're
stepping putting they're taking their foot off the gas and
anyway because they're on fewer board seats.
I found super implausible. Then Mark and been jumped on
Twitter, to make fun of the story and it just was I feel bad
for my former colleagues a little bit because I didn't
think it made them look great. And also, like they're stepping
back, is it proven that they're the people who made all the best
investments and it would actually impact the firm's
performance at all? I mean, I thought then, I mean,
Mark, Mark is not Mark. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a
story that, you know, Mark is Not personally necessarily the
best picker but is a good seller for the firm is good.
At the Vivid Visions or the marketer.
Superheated you need a, you need a Salesman but that's been true
for ever. That's not a change, I mean
right in bet. But then I mean is you know
super involved a lot of the hard decisions and I know he's super
involved in the crypto fund. So, yeah, I found that story a
little, maybe they'll look smart but I mean You know, these
things phase out for so long. I just I feel like it was a big
claim to make to well the other part of it was that they had
stepped off of a couple of their boards, right?
They'd gone from like 11 boards to seven boards which I don't I
don't know what that really means.
If that's, I mean at a time well you know, formation predicting,
you know what berber and the information predicting the and
reasons going to go public, I don't have this sourcing to say
that I wrote a story saying that they had Ambitions to be like an
Apollo. I didn't think That meant they
needed to do a public listing, but they're clearly growing that
firm enormously so they're doing a ton of work.
I mean it's a huge. The management of the firm is
becoming bigger and bigger. The only reason I think that an
IPO for injuries might be smart and probably not for a lot of
other VC firms is because their operation is so large and
encompasses so much outside of investing like an order for just
the profits from investment to continue to always consistently.
For that many human beings who do that many not investing
activities, it would be possibly nice to have a public market
support system, so they could build off of that, you know,
kind of like the what Blackstone did I met?
Chris Dixon Wells. He'll never remember me.
But we met at a recent event and I thought he was really smart
and interesting talk to. I don't know.
I guess that's too like these people.
I met him also at one and I was, of course, trying to work him
for information about BuzzFeed hilarious.
Little did. I know he didn't really give a
shit about Buzz? Yeah, well, I was listening to
him, talk, never heard on that, is on the Tim Ferriss podcast
with navall. And the funny thing about, you
know, obviously sort of Chris and of all seem much smarter
than Tim and Tim just plays sort of bemuse, like, explain this to
me, which is, you know, I guess the softball Tech loves that.
It's just like, oh, yeah, yeah, where the Gods?
In the world to you. But I mean, Chris like clearly
loves philosophy and some ways use the kind of person reporters
like where he's very sort of Humanity's interested.
So it's sort of sad that there's this breakdown who knew this was
going to be a love letter to Chris Dixon.
Here you go. There you go.
That's a contrarian stance. I mean he's you know on the
Forefront of crypto right now. One of the most important things
going on in the world and Exciting thing, it's sort of sad
because the breakdown with the media and some ways is a
breakdown, you know, with the public it's like, oh fuck you
like translated I'm saying. And that's a big, you're like,
what's this doing? And that's like just a bigger
thing altogether when they would never say that.
Obviously, they would take great umbrage at the idea that the
media, and the public could be switched, you know, for each
other in a sentence. But I just think realistically,
that's, that's the truth. Yeah.
I'll tell you who has no problem getting hype and excitement.
From the media though, is every a, our product that ever was
released in the last couple of years.
There's no shortage of reporters willing to traipse over to
whatever location to try on the next pair of ugly ass glasses
that do like 2% of what hoop analogy.
It's the latest one. Well and I don't want to call it
reporters individually because if I were covering the company,
I would probably have gone to and written something nice about
it that you might have. Been forced to go.
Yeah. Well that's part of it too.
Snap had like a developer day for reporters where they put out
their latest version of their augmented reality glasses and
got pretty pretty. Nice.
Write-ups from The Verge Alex Heath, former colleague of mine
and and Casey Newton who basically we're saying like
look, it's limited. What it can do the field of
vision from for augmented. Reality is not all that great
and the things it can do or mostly in the realm of toy
rather than huge You know world changing technology but the
colonel of what it could be is there and for the first time in
my life I can see you know over the horizon.
What this thing is promise and like look maybe in the Elation
of some trying something cool and new you might think
something like that but it's again hard for me to square that
mentality with the either ignorance or derision of crypto
which is like I was saying for we start recording probably at
the same stage in terms of public acceptance and like by I
think I was you reporter As you mentioned are also very
intrigued by crypto to. So that's one.
Flaw with your, your claim here that somehow a are gets more fun
and coverage than crypto mean they both, they both are, I
guess. What?
I want to see is like, watch someone write a piece saying,
how the, I just had a crypt like an AR demo and it sucked.
And this kind of goes back to the conversation.
We had ages ago, where it was like what is the benefit of
writing that something is just bad, right?
Why not just ignore it. Not just ignore it.
Like did we nobody wanted to say I don't know, write a big story
about how the flying car was stupid waste of money and it was
going to be a drag companies that tried it.
Like it's just like why bother just look funny phenomenon.
You know is people who quote tweet tweets that they hate, you
know, it's like, oh, you're Distributing this very thing.
You profess to despise and and so it's just a very human
online. Isshin that you amplify the very
thing you wish to suppress. But do you read stories about
things that people don't like? I mean I don't unless it's
Anthony mi re do he just likes him.
I mean obviously if it's well-written did you read the
wonderful piece about that the one-star Michelin restaurant?
I think it was in some Italian city.
It was I think 27 courses, mostly consisting of like fish
flavored foam. They left Hungary, it was just
terrible. That's true but I didn't see
that as Necessarily something about, I didn't see that as this
is something I disliked, I saw that Maura has this is something
that was extraordinarily weird and unlikable.
Yeah, what I loved more was the chef's response which is the
increasingly abstract, but pictures images of a man on the
horse right? Beautiful.
Well somebody somebody translated it as like oh is
response wasn't do the food's actually good.
Like fuck you. It's I'm trying to abstract Act
a way, the nests necessity of food because which is
exactly exactly. It was like, it was like, you
know, watching the movie Breaking the Waves or something
or let's say, I mean, it was just like, right?
Yeah, anybody can charge you $200 and make you feel like you
just had a great time. I'm going to do something
different, right? Students and enjoyment bike,
that's very 20th century when it comes to food.
Like, what about just pure confusion and like, discuss,
right? I will say, I actually thought I
liked the article, I thought it was kind of annoyingly written
and it's like a certain kind of Internet language that I just
find sort of tired. I knew that it was probably
going to go viral or is written as sort of like yeah.
I don't know, just what just language, I'm curious where you
didn't, like, I can bring up the article.
Specifically there was just lines here and there that were
just like derivative of a certain type of Like internet
humor that I just thrust tiresome and it just like, yeah,
like the front. I will take all of it to me all
of it. To me, was worthwhile just for
the photo and idea of licking, whatever, fish foam out of a
mold cast of The Chef's mouth. I mean, that is that is genius
level stuff. Like that idea is so it wasn't
purely novel in the other restaurants have done
specifically like the cast of The I thought when I saw some
other pictures of Yeah, no one's done that at nopa.
So this is, this is much as I know.
Yes. Let he who has not gone to a
tasting meal. Cast the first stone?
Yeah, I went to guy Savoy in Paris, which is many several
Michelin stars. It's just like the problem with
that is you just need to be like, you get wealthy enough,
you can afford the wealthy thing but you're not wealthy enough to
not care about the things, you know, it's like Iris to
price-conscious, you know, suck I Maybe enjoy that meal of.
It was like, the amount of money was like, a throwaway to me.
So then it was like, whatever. But it's just there if you see
it, as why are you guys trying to upsell me?
Like every time the I think the water bottle, we got to we're
sorry, we didn't get tablet. We asked for just water and what
they gave us was like a 30 dollar twenty thirty dollar
bottle of water. We had two of them.
So our water budget for that meal was like $50 alone and it
was also lunch. We went for with the water
paired with the individual dishes.
Now there was not a Our sommelier and, you know, we went
for lunch and then you get the like actual lunch menu and to
get like the Velar. Something is like a 60 Euro up
charge. Oh, I share a joke.
Sarah, Joe is overhearing me. She just she chatted me the
bottle. It was 28 Euros.
A bottle. I'm underselling it.
But was the restaurant, like, was a place where you're like,
this is really fancy and lovely. And did you feel like not doing
something like very special? There was a loss.
Opportunity like a big milestone event.
Did you feel like you lost an opportunity because it might
have been the best setting for right?
I think. I can't get it.
Oh, I was just gonna say, Eric
lost the opportunity to write a blog post about it, but maybe
there are things that matter more than that, I don't know.
Of course, the restaurant you enjoy the most is the one we had
this terrible bike ride. That was like so many times too
difficult for us but the lunch we had, you know, frantically
The lunch places were going to be closed, was, you know, the
best meal of the trip. Because you're like exhausted,
we ordered a espressos during the cheese course, you know,
during Desert, and the waitress who seemed like she must have
been the owner, like, scolded us that we couldn't wait until the
cheese. Course was done have the
espresso at the appropriate time and she she literally walks up
to one table. And she's like, you're a good
french. Couple she goes up to Anna.
You're a good french couple and you okay?
Kids have no, I mean, it wasn't good.
It fun but it was just like classic like we're anxious about
you know, get it where we want to get out of there.
Like continue our bike ride, it's like take the lunch, you
know, enjoy the espresso. When you're honestly, Eric, let
him have it, give it to them. Because that's literally the
last thing Europeans have I know it's like they're better than us
is better than us in any sort of like, you know, refined cultural
setting. I'm the terrible American who
comes back and I'm like nobody was working there like we're The
white collar workers on their laptops like grinding away like
it seems like a very special, all these enjoying them, learn.
Exactly, who has, who has time for these like lunches, you
know, did you write them? Oh God, I gotta get that gig.
I gotta get whatever. Jig Is affording them.
Take a lunch. I think, just like socialism
plus a declining Empire. I mean, we've got the declining
him, right? That's it.
That should be the next step for America then is like, if we are
Ready are in the point of like Decay as a as a nation and as a
power, like why can't we just start enjoying ourselves?
We'll see. That's the problem we're Square
going. The, you know, excretes this G
for scarce resources, route. While like five people have
everything, it's a really, really tough row to hoe, right?
Yeah. It's like, let's invent like a
war with China and try to like out work there 997 or whatever
the fuck they call it. Yeah.
Friends were just like or we could just drink espresso for 7
hours a day. It's great.
That's why she's drink so much. Hot night, get some right.
I actually the one aspect of that, you know, the bad
restaurant review, that resonated with me was the fact
that they left Hungary at the end, they're just like it
didn't, it wasn't even filling. And actually, that's kind of a
perk because any time, I've gone to those, like, multi-course
restaurants, you eat so much, and it's too many different
foods in your stomach, I always gross, it's gross.
I always feel terrible that's why the fanciest place you
should go is the place where you can spend as much as you.
You need to have a buffet a good time, right, right.
Just go back for seconds. Like, it's your fault.
If you're still hungry. Exactly.
There was a place in La when I lived, there were rows.
And I went to that when we ordered dessert, it was like a
cake or something. Could slice a cake?
And it was just crumbs, it was just like crumbs of various
sizes on the plate and the waiter brought it out and Rosen.
I just started laughing. It's like if you eat this and we
looked at the waiter looked at it and he kind of shrugged and
we're just like and what are you gonna do?
Like I don't think. The intention like I'm pretty
sure the chef just brought the cake and then just try to like,
Cobble it together back on the plate.
If I ran across, I mean, that's very New York.
You guys probably know. Yeah, we've been playing.
That was a restaurant where the portions I thought were we ate
way too much. We ordered like it was like one
of those small plates things we were literally destroyed.
Yeah it was so rich. So weird thing about that place
is that because it was one of the only like one of three
places people went to in Miami. I like her and about it so much.
And then I just conflated the New York restaurant with like
this weird Miami Outpost and like this culture.
Just like I just I so I have this weird vibe bad feeling
about it but the food is good. Yeah, well, there's a whole
genre of tick talker. Who tells you what places are in
in New York. And I do finally, I'm obsessed
with. I sort of got brainwashed by,
like the Carbone takes until you're both on.
Take, Eric, I thought you were getting up.
I deleted it. Literally, I deleted it.
Of the week up until today. I was like, I'm bored.
Like what am I doing? I just published like I'm
allowed to be on Tick-Tock like what else?
Will I text people but Tick Tock videos.
Like it's not like I talk to anyone anymore.
Here's a link, that's it. Well you're both lost.
Then the used to spend our chance.
It's already done. I made a clean break.
All right, let's talk one more thing of substance.
What do you want? Oh yeah.
Okay, I don't you want to talk about Facebook?
I don't even know people like it.
I mean now I do worry that it There's a lot of little people
are tired of now. It's like, it looks like we got
Facebook. Like, people don't.
Yeah, no, that's okay though. I did there was a story of the
Erickson over that I'd very dutifully red.
Hold on the one with the better CEO my wife CPS oh yeah well
that was just like hmm may not a huge surprise just sort of your
basic shitty corporate Behavior but this whole thing about
Carolyn ever seen leaving so soon I didn't I was really Tom's
like I can talk about what I can talk about.
It's fine. Like, I didn't, I mean, I guess,
of course, Tom that is one of your companies, but I just
thought it was interesting because she had had such an
amazing career at Facebook. She responds to Sheryl Sandberg
Lieutenant, right? And then she got passed over for
Marnie, right? But she was not in the Cheryl
crew, she wasn't this. Yeah.
And this is something I don't quite understand about, like
being powerful and like super wealthy is that when you get
passed over for a job, but you still have the really powerful
job, you had that Made you wealthy, we're lost before
respect you. You're so irritated that you get
passed over that. You just throw up your hands and
walk away. That is something I don't
understand because I guess I've never been powerful enough to be
like, you know what, then screw you.
I'm, I do not accept this extremely powerful position.
I already. Right.
That's a bit of continued having well.
It's just like, I don't think that's how you say screw you in
the Sheryl Sandberg world. I'm sure it's like, you say,
fuck off your eyes are so, you know, totally blank and you're
like I'm so grateful for the time I've had working and I'm so
sorry that I need to leave to do nothing specific yet.
You know, like write it, you know, it's who's Afraid of
Virginia Woolf, but that Harvard knows that it like a lady sewing
Circle. But um, I just, you know, she
goes into car as unclear. What she's going to do, you see
that she's overseeing marketing messaging?
You know all Washington legally related things.
Like, kind of, she should ever saying anything that touches any
human being outside of instacart.
And then she was like, you know what, this is not for me.
And I'm going on three months in like, what happened and she was,
she was friendly with Fiji to. It wasn't like they were, you
know, like oh, I didn't realize what I was getting into.
Like, they worked closely together because Fiji was one of
the top at, you know, digital not top.
But she was definitely involved in the digital ads world within
Facebook. So this wasn't like, you know,
an odd couple that was yoked together through requirements
and you know, obligation to get It's in there.
I mean, to me, what's interesting now without tipping
my hand too much about the topic is like, for the longest time,
the instacart instability which has been going on for years now,
they just churn through Executives over there, they were
able to chalk that up to the founder.
A port of a meta who was just kind of a Maniac running that
company just nobody could get along with him.
He didn't know how to be clear with his directives.
I wrote a piece about it a couple months ago that they just
couldn't keep product people, like anyone who He sort of had
any product sense were like, this guy's unworkable.
He has no vision and he's not the CEO anymore like they pushed
him out of that roll to the side and yet the instability
continues. Well, it's very hard to unlearn
companies become like their Founders.
And I mean, watching The Uber thing, I mean people just rise
to the top because they have the traits valued by the founders.
So I do think it's in defense of the new CEO you know the culture
doesn't change overnight but But this one is persistence in URLs
and a cute is leaving. You know, it's like oh the
people that were part of the old regime year.
I'm not going to make it but someone that you like one of
your first orders of business was like, let me bring in like
my solid ads you nobody to run things, it's not a, not a good
sign about the company in any way.
And so I mean I basically had its moment in the pandemic and
whatever if it couldn't grab land then and IPO then that was
such like a good moment. Well that's the other thing.
Thing to, I think a lot of people that went to instacart,
on the way up or like, I'm going to be rich because my options
are going to be so valuable and we know that they're not going
to IPO next year. They were supposed to IPO this
year. They're not going to do it next
year. Who knows if 2023 is on the
table and so if you're Carolyn you're not loving things over
there and you're not sure about, you know, how stable your jobs
going to be and you're not even able to cash out your shares and
who knows how valuable they'll be anyway.
You know, like if it's occurred, has to raise another round.
And it's a Down Round, like that's really bad.
So I should think about this in the way like this is akin to
Symone Sanders leaving, Kamala Harris office.
She's like I don't want to be the outward face for, you know,
what's clearly the implosion of this?
Yeah, she'll he's made in a year.
I mean to you, what is your Kamala if you make it here?
I mean I thought so January, 2020 is when everyone started.
It's it's December 11 months. Yeah.
I'm not her, you know, there was the big piece, was it CNN?
That did the big reported peace and identity Politico has done
some stuff, too. I thought her quotes were sort
of like, I'm not leaving because it's terrible.
It wasn't like, I mean, that's obviously not a direct quote,
but it wasn't like, it's not terrible.
It's like, I'm not leaving because of the thesis of your
story, right? Not speaking to the thesis of
your story, one way or the other, you know, that's what
about red. What about bad fit does it?
Make sense to you. What about cultural mismatch?
Don't you get? Absolutely.
Yeah, I don't really understand
how I mean, I don't know enough about I mean, again, just a
reminder. I don't cover politics.
Technically. The justice department is law
enforcement, right? And clearly a political to yeah,
fall, but But yes, I it's true. When I say, I don't understand
the inner workings of these offices, like Congressional
offices and like, the office of the president, or the vice
president, because they're kind of their own little fiefdoms.
And so, I mean, when I see them, I get that.
Like, I just, I get nervous because it's like once you go
through the Looking-Glass, like God only knows what's going on
back there. Well, I sort of feel bad.
I was out with some somebody's more senior in the industry last
night for drinks. And, you know this Person was
just real like you know, I could have been this bigger role, you
know. But I didn't get the job this
person got it and I was just sort of like to myself.
Like, I don't know that other person either.
Like, what would your life ever? Really been that different if
you'd been? Like, sure, you would've been
richer. You definitely would've been
richer, but it's like you're under another name that nobody
has heard of and life in jail for something better to come to
peace with like that. He feels like he should have
been the CEO of like this, you know, like it's just sort.
Out of, I mean, obviously, not too, but Life's a chain of sort
of wanting. With the next person above you
has everything. Has to be that I think no, I
agree. I mean, is it better though?
To not get the job at you? Thought you were that you
deserved and was part of your life's plan or to get the job
and realize that it's like it's empty that it gives, you know,
sort of, you know, Soul nourishment.
But the ROM is, you just say, oh well the problem is, it's not
the top top job, you know, it's right next.
Winner, and if you're the founder, it's because my board
wouldn't let me be great and they stop me.
You know, it's there is no like, I mean, it's sort of its like
insecurities all the way down. Hurry up.
And you know, if you're Bezos you can be like well they don't
think I'm an inventor. They think I'm the op.
You know, you can always feel so I'm going to actually I think he
feels okay about himself, I know, I think he's okay.
But I do think there's a degree to which, you know, even the top
then you just refrain yourself as saying, well I'm I'm pursuing
to be a once in a generation. Talent.
And then you weigh yourself against the base was thing is
great to me because I don't think he feels like it through
that way, and yet still that insecurity that drives
Executives at a different level, clearly affected him when the
Lauren Sanchez, you know, texting Scandal broke out
because it wasn't enough that like her shitty brother leak the
text messages like know, this had to be a plot led by the
Saudis in order to smear me because I had one time shafted
like MBS which of course turned out to be complete bullshit.
But at that level it's like one clearly an important In person
because why else would my you know my love Tex get out there.
Absolutely. Whilst the Saudis only hack,
very American people, right? That's the only way that it
could have gotten out there. There is that picture where
Leonardo DiCaprio was like looking at her and then Bezos
literally put up like some tweet likes flexing.
Like I feel like this is Nana I know you're talking about.
Yeah I think we're going into part of people's psyche, that's
like really dangerous. This is more Bezos has Petty
petty foibles, like the rest of us or even more amazing.
Yeah. Anyway, instacart watch that
space. Okay.
Sounds good. Goodbye, goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
Sounds good. Goodbye, goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.