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Welcome. 
How's it going, everybody? 

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Welcome back to dead cat. 
This is Tom here. 

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I'm with Eric and returning 
Champion. 

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Our first time. 
Second appearance on the show, 

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Aaron Griffith of the New York 
Times. 

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Welcome back, Aaron. 
Thanks for having me. 

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That's quite an honor. 
Yeah, before we get into the 

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specifics of the trial itself, 
Aaron is, of course, covering 

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the theranos trial for the New 
York Times. 

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Gavel to gavel. 
She's all over it. 

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I want it. 
I understand there's a bit of 

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breaking news from you because 
last time one of the big 

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discussion or topics of 
discussion that we had was what 

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you were able to eat, like just 
how you were able to find time 

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and the answer was actually 
incredibly depressing but it did

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get a lot of attention. 
So it sounds to me that there's 

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been something of a development 
in terms of your break and 

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eating habits at the trial. 
Can you fill us in on what's 

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going on there? 
Yeah, so, yeah. 

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So this is This is really 
important and I'm glad that 

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we're getting a, you know, out 
of the way right at the top of 

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the episode. 
So I've stopped eating the 

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Starbucks sandwiches on 
principle. 

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It's just too depressing and 
I've also now in all of them 

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like enough times that like I 
can't anymore. 

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So I bought a giant box of Luna 
bars that I think I am just 

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having I have them in my purse 
at all times and so now I don't 

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have to leave for lunch because 
often I'm trying to file because

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we're now filing kind of daily 
stories and to bring it. 

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For everyone. 
I have shared some with our 

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reporting fellow Aaron. 
Woohoo has been down there with 

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me for some over just within the
times. 

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You don't give excellent 
protocol or anyone else. 

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Everyone else is like packing. 
Their own peanut butter and 

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jellies or something. 
I haven't gotten that advanced 

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yet. 
So yeah I'm just after this 

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trial these, these specifically 
the lemon ones I'm never going 

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to be able to eat another one of
probably eating like 50. 

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So we are in the homestretch of 
the trial. 

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Yeah, the prosecution has rested
their case. 

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Why don't you actually summarize
for Us what the prosecution's 

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case, essentially was like how 
did it, how did it, you know, 

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what was like its strongest 
point that it was trying to make

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to the jury? 
Yeah. 

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So the prosecution at the start 
outlined I think six or seven 

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areas of alleged fraud and they 
pretty much went through all of 

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them with almost every count. 
So there's eleven counts to of 

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conspiracy to commit wire fraud 
and nine of water fraud and 

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they're all tied to specific 
investors or patients. 

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There's like I think a couple 
patients that are in there, one 

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got thrown out and then one 
related to like an ad 

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advertisement purchase and so 
the areas of the fraud, our 

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military, she lied about their 
not having military contracts. 

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I'll see pharmaceutical company.
She lied about like their 

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relationship. 
Chip in their work with 

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pharmaceutical companies. 
The Walgreens rollout she 

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they're alleging that she lied 
about how well that was going 

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when she knew it was falling 
apart and telling investors 

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they'd be you know National and 
thousands of stores. 

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When in fact they weren't 
there's the financial 

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projections climbing fairness is
going to have a billion dollars 

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in Revenue in 2015 when it had 
like almost zero and and and 

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those were actually even given 
to investors. 

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I feel like the end of the year 
in like October, so they knew 

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they were nowhere close. 
And then there may be a A couple

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other ones but those are those 
are the ones that I've paid 

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closest attention to. 
And throughout all of it, they 

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have to show that she intended 
originally defrauded. 

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So they're also constantly tying
all of these claims to her 

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directly basically showing her. 
Oh, I forgot. 

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Sorry. 
Let me go back. 

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The lab. 
She knew the obviously that the 

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tests weren't working and that 
she told people that the third 

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party devices that they had 
modified third-party devices 

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instead of using their own 
proprietary technology. 

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So anyway, they have gone. 
Through and basically lay it out

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that entire case, which they had
previewed in the beginning. 

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And I think they've pretty much 
delivered on on most of that 

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stuff. 
And then, of course, the defense

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has worked, very hard to debunk 
it, right. 

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We'll get to that in a second, 
but when you bring up Elizabeth 

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herself, and what she knew or 
didn't know, I mean, it's one 

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thing to mislead investors, but 
another thing to do it 

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knowingly, and in some way 
provably, you know, do it while 

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telling yourself boy, I'm really
pulling a fast. 

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One on everyone here, right, 
right. 

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Her whole defense is that Is 
naivete. 

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Could you kind of explain to me 
a little bit about, you know, 

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the guilty mind aspect of it and
how the prosecution has been 

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trying to make the case. 
That not only did she mislead 

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people but she did it knowing 
that what she was doing full 

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well was not legal. 
Yeah and so this has been a big 

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part of her testimony. 
So are the cross examination of 

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her because until this until she
testified all the evidence for 

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that part of it was 
circumstantial, you know, they 

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have to show that she knew about
this by showing she was told Old

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or by seeing emails that she 
cc'ed on, you know. 

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But now with her on the stand, 
the prosecutors can just really 

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Hammer her on like, but you knew
this was wrong, you knew, and 

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because you knew that fairness 
test were struggling you and so 

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they did that over and over and 
just like so repetitively. 

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Like one of the ones that stuck 
out to me was around the 

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military. 
You know, they asked her like 

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ten different ways. 
The same question like you knew 

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that their nose Vices were never
used in Afghanistan. 

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They were never used in the 
Middle East. 

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They were never on a Medevac. 
They were never used by the 

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military, like just like ten 
different times in a row. 

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So, the jury, like, clearly gets
the point. 

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She knew that this stuff was 
never being used and she's 

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trying to split a hair and 
claim. 

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I never really exactly 
specifically kind of told 

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investors that I hinted at it 
and they jumped to their own 

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conclusions. 
She was obviously very prepared 

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for the, the, you know, defenses
questioning. 

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She had all her answers ready 
with the cross. 

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She was pretty prepared and she 
did a lot of, I don't know, I 

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don't recall. 
And so she had like, a crystal 

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clear memory for all questions, 
asked by her lawyers and then 

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when the prosecution asked, 
she's right kind of funny how 

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that works. 
She said no a lot to a lot of 

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their questions that were 
leading and then she would kind 

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of like try to split hairs and 
be like well you know so she 

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sent this, Roger par La Fortune 
article that had a lot of 

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incorrect information in it, out
to investors as promotion. 

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And they're using that as part 
of their argument saying like 

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you knew this was wrong and yet 
you still sent it to investors 

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and never said it was wrong. 
And she is say, you know, she's 

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trying to like basically say, 
well, I didn't I sent it to them

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and I said it contains some 
information about their nose, 

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you know? 
So like selected. 

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And I thought, yes, yeah, 
exactly. 

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She's trying to she's kind of 
trying to do that around a lot 

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of things. 
And like with parle off, you 

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know, she told him where She 
told him, like we can do all 

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these tests and we don't, she 
didn't. 

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She told him that she didn't 
say, we don't by third-party 

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devices. 
She said, we do all of our tests

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on our own machines that are 
proprietary. 

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And I didn't tell him like the 
difference because it's a trade 

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secret. 
And so, there's just been a lot 

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of, like, kind of weaselly. 
And so it would seem hard for 

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any, it would seem hard for any,
like, rational jury to see that 

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not as bright, navigating your 
personal lives, like, dealing 

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with Liars, like, Like they're 
few Liars that just want to get 

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caught out right in line. 
They would much prefer to let 

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you come to beliefs that are 
useful to them. 

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Like, yeah, I'm still busy with 
Coach to say things like that 

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because I just feel like the 
concept of lying and a liar is a

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very broad-based accepted like 
people have a visceral reaction 

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to someone doesn't matter if you
understand the industry or not, 

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people have like a spidey sense 
of like, if this person is lying

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to me, I don't like that person,
you know, people related to like

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their jobs or their family 
members and I think the defense 

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has Has countered that with two 
things for one. 

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They've had her admit to 
mistakes. 

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So they've tried to like make 
her more credible by saying. 

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Oh I regret the way we handle 
the Wall Street Journal article 

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or I regret the way that we 
dealt with Erica Chang or I 

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regret putting those logos on 
those pharmaceutical documents. 

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If I had known that they were 
misleading, so they're trying to

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get credibility there and 
they're just trying to 

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complicate things. 
So they, you know, know this is 

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a jury of late. 
People who are not super 

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well-versed necessarily in the 
inner workings of Finance 

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business technology science. 
And so like I think if they just

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make it really complicated and 
then they make it seem like 

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homes, you know was just a 
little bit confused or maybe 

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Miss keep miscommunicated and 
other people didn't like 

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understand her or they wanted to
believe other things than, like,

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maybe it was just really 
complicated and a 

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miscommunication, a big piece of
it is how much Like her Co Sunny

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new verses, which she knew 
right? 

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She's blamed a lot of it on him.
I mean that's that has been a 

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tour. 
Yeah, I want to actually want to

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back into Sonny for a bit 
because of that kind of speaks 

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to sort of the emotional 
elements of her testimony, 

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right? 
I mean, so it may be just 

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rewinding for a bit. 
Let me set it up a little bit 

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better. 
I remember for in following you 

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in a few other reporters on 
Twitter when the prosecution 

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rested and the defense began, 
you know their case was it an 

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open question whether or not 
Elizabeth Holmes was going to 

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testify because So just from the
tweets it seemed like you guys 

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were all very, you know excited.
I was shocked. 

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I mean, really the whole time 
we've been speculating, will 

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she? 
Or will she not testify and all 

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you know we've all quoted 
experts saying like why it's a 

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huge risk and why she shouldn't 
or why she wouldn't or why? 

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It's so rare and white collar 
crimes for the defendant to ever

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testify. 
And, you know, that on the other

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hand, people are like, well, 
she's a big risk taker and this 

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is part of her defense or 
lawyers have said she's going to

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testify. 
I am like this is her best shot.

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And so anyway I everything about
this trial has been 

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unpredictable and so it 
definitely came as a surprise. 

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To me particular did you find 
out? 

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Well, I was sitting in the 
courtroom, it was the very few 

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of the days have gone. 
All our of the weeks have gone 

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all five days but it was for 
whatever scheduling reason five 

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days in a row, I was exhausted. 
It was 3:00 like one hour before

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court was about to be out. 
Out and like I know other 

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journalists were thinking of 
leaving. 

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I was like do I need to really 
need to stay? 

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Like this is pretty boring like 
the defense's argument had not 

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so far. 
They had had like, a former lab 

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director and and like a 
paralegal from their own Law 

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Firm testifying. 
And then, you know, we're all 

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like, oh, what's going to happen
this last hour? 

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And then they called her to the 
stand and oh my God, I like 

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almost had a heart attack. 
It was absolutely not what I had

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expected. 
You know, we had Paradise live 

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blog are like you know, sort of 
a live feed that we were going 

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to spin up just in case. 
Like I had a story pre-written 

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just in case but like I was not 
ready for it to happen at that 

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moment at 3:00 after the very at
the very tail end of a super 

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long week. 
He should have to call her when 

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it's time, you would think 
they'd want to start the day 

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with her and have it be sort of 
finish. 

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I feel like it was almost a good
way for her to like get 

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acclimated to the court. 
Like it was low stake. 

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They didn't talk about anything 
important on that. 

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At first, our it was just like 
getting her like, used to being 

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in the corner. 
That's smart. 

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I see it kind of like screwed 
the journalist though because 

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it's like, all right, I've been 
here all for three months, 

227
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,300
almost every day and like, I 
should at least get some head 

228
00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:56,200
start on like, getting some 
exclusive information but then 

229
00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,900
like, so we got really nothing 
out of that first hour and then 

230
00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:01,500
Monday, of course, everybody 
flies in. 

231
00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:04,400
You know, everyone who has at 
the trial, right working 

232
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,900
journalists Yeah, it sucks. 
We got no circus atmosphere that

233
00:12:08,900 --> 00:12:11,300
had probably died down as people
were like, man, trials can be 

234
00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:14,700
really boring and it's just like
a recitation of documents and 

235
00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:17,400
all this other like oh here's 
the star witness, who is going 

236
00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,500
to be played by, you know, 
Jennifer Lawrence in a couple of

237
00:12:20,500 --> 00:12:22,200
months. 
Yeah, she's showing up at like 

238
00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,400
325 on a, this is why the media 
is broken, you know, the 

239
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,500
outlets, the put in the work. 
Yeah, this that's specifically 

240
00:12:30,500 --> 00:12:34,700
is exactly the crew system needs
to write the local news cameras 

241
00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:37,100
that have been covering like 
shoplifting in San Francisco, 

242
00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:39,400
like, suddenly turned around and
we're rushing down the 

243
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,300
courthouse. 
There were a lot of Spectators 

244
00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:44,500
that I mean, cuz there's been a 
Spectators throughout, but there

245
00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:47,200
are a lot of Spectators that day
that left at lunch because it 

246
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,000
was so boring. 
And I was like, no man. 

247
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,300
It's like the people that were 
leaving Dodger Stadium in 89 

248
00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:55,300
because I thought the World 
Series was over right? 

249
00:12:55,300 --> 00:12:55,800
Right. 
Yeah. 

250
00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:58,300
Miami serious. 
Yeah, right. 

251
00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:03,900
So so but it seems that the core
of her case Beyond just her 

252
00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:07,100
being naive. 
That she was a victim. 

253
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,100
She was a victim of abuse and 
that she was being manipulated 

254
00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:13,000
by Sonny bhawani. 
Now, I remember like before the 

255
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,900
trial even started, people were 
suggesting that that could be 

256
00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:18,300
one route that they take. 
I don't know if they probably 

257
00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:21,000
would have needed to call her if
that was going to be the route 

258
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,400
but totally but because their 
relationship was a secret. 

259
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,900
And so really like she's one of 
the only people that can even 

260
00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:31,000
testify about it, right? 
They had, they had indicated, 

261
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,600
they might do this in filings, 
so we had that preview, but it 

262
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,400
was still on Open question, mark
of whether not, she'd actually 

263
00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:39,000
go for it. 
I'm sure they're waiting to see 

264
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,900
how everything else went before 
deciding. 

265
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,600
Yeah, and just from the reading 
of it, it sounded like it was 

266
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,300
fairly emotional. 
Like she went, you know, when 

267
00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:47,500
she took the stand it was 
describing, you know, her 

268
00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:51,900
allegations of abuse, she was 
crying, she was tearful and I 

269
00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:54,300
did that surprise you at all. 
I mean, obviously she's someone 

270
00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:57,200
who in the media has been 
depicted as like this kind of 

271
00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,900
stony-faced monotone. 
Baritone, you know, uncaring 

272
00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:04,500
unblinking person did she Blink 
by the way, when she was on the 

273
00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:07,700
stand? 
Yeah. and I made a joke once 

274
00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:12,500
where I thought I had noticed 
that she was like, Blinking a 

275
00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:14,800
lot while looking forward. 
And I was like, a she'd just 

276
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,700
getting all her blinks out now. 
Robert like so she can then 

277
00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:20,600
stare when. 
But yeah, it's also a way to get

278
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,800
the tears going, not just as 
their crocodile tears. 

279
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,400
She has made some intense eye 
contact and when the jurors were

280
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,500
walking in and out anytime she 
would try to individually, make 

281
00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:31,800
eye contact with each one of 
them. 

282
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,800
My God maybe only one ever 
really looked up at her but yes 

283
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,900
there's that one invested in her
company that's in her, you know,

284
00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:41,600
morning notebook routine, stare 
intently and to each jurors. 

285
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:44,100
I mean, so one thing that came 
up that I thought was really 

286
00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:50,700
interesting in this argument 
about the emotional and physical

287
00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:54,200
or sexual abuse that she that 
happened in her relationship 

288
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:55,500
with Sonny about wani which to 
be fair. 

289
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:58,900
This guy's 20 years older than 
her and he was like her business

290
00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:01,600
mentor. 
And so, I mean, I think that 

291
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:07,100
felt very credible to me that 
they had a lopsided dynamic in 

292
00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:09,300
their relationship. 
But doesn't necessarily didn't 

293
00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:14,300
really connect it very well to 
the actual fraud. but and so 

294
00:15:14,308 --> 00:15:19,200
that's going to be, I think the 
challenge for the jury but like,

295
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,800
one of the things I thought so 
interesting is like, so all the 

296
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,500
investors that we've heard talk 
about how impressive she was and

297
00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:28,700
how she was so put together and 
confident and like, you know, 

298
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:34,600
unlike a 19 year old girl might 
be, you know, and that was all 

299
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,800
because Sonny was coaching her 
to be like that he was basically

300
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,100
telling her and kind of he was 
berating her but he was also 

301
00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:44,600
telling Her like don't say 
awesome, don't giggle, don't 

302
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,800
like, you know, put your hands 
in your pockets, don't gesture, 

303
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,300
you know, he was like really 
kind of like pushing her to 

304
00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:55,100
present herself that way. 
And it worked. 

305
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:56,900
How old was she for some of 
this? 

306
00:15:57,500 --> 00:16:00,200
Well she she met him when she 
was in college. 

307
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,600
So like 1819. 
But then when During the period 

308
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,500
of the alleged fraud, she would 
have been in her 20s. 

309
00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:07,900
Late 20s early 30s. 
Okay. 

310
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,600
But I mean, some of the 
investors met her In like the 

311
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,000
early 2000s when their nose had 
first started. 

312
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,900
So they were testifying about 
all the way back at that point. 

313
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,700
Like the Don Lucas's is, it was 
it a son or nephew anyway? 

314
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:27,200
Yeah, so Insider we ran a piece 
I Believe by Adam Le schinsky 

315
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:32,400
saying that her taking the trial
and the tenor and pitch of her 

316
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,200
testimony turned the tide that 
basically it's suddenly been 

317
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,500
suddenly became because she made
it about her. 

318
00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:43,200
A victim. 
And a lot of the most devious 

319
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,400
acts of the company's life, were
the result of, you know, the 

320
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,800
Svengali Sunnyvale wani that she
was merely a naive and innocent 

321
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,100
bystander or like a puppet for 
the true evil. 

322
00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,000
That was, I mean what, what did 
you bought into this now? 

323
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,500
He, yeah, let's this is going to
be an IT situation where Eric 

324
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:07,599
screams at me, I did not read 
the story, but the headline of 

325
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:10,500
the story, I read the story I'm 
Adam with his writing has been 

326
00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:11,599
good. 
Yeah. 

327
00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:14,900
So I don't want you to make 
Adams case for him. 

328
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:17,599
But what do you think about at 
least that idea that, you know, 

329
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:21,599
suddenly the momentum shifted 
entirely towards the defense, I 

330
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:26,400
have no idea what the jury is 
thinking and so I that's one 

331
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,500
part of it that's challenge. 
But I do think it kind of 

332
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:33,500
upended the dynamic, for sure. 
I mean, this has been a very 

333
00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:40,600
long, very tedious white collar 
crime case about business and 

334
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,300
And Tech and Science, and it's 
just been like so in the weeds 

335
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:49,200
and now we have this, extremely 
emotional narrative injected 

336
00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:51,500
into it. 
Like, it's hard, not to only 

337
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:54,500
focus on that. 
And I feel like the jury is 

338
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:57,800
that's going to be at the heart 
of a lot of their discussions. 

339
00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,900
I'm on, or maybe they decide to 
throw it out, I don't know. 

340
00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:03,100
But like, well, that and 
actually to me when the 

341
00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:06,800
prosecution has said, they plan 
to file a motion to throw out 

342
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,300
some of that, because they did 
not the defense did not bring in

343
00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:14,200
an Expert testimony or expert 
witness to testify as to the 

344
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,600
relevance of it, to this fraud 
case. 

345
00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:21,500
Don't you want to throw things 
out before the jury hears, 

346
00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:22,300
right? 
They can't. 

347
00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:27,600
Yeah, they can't like, this is 
even if they remove it, it's not

348
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,800
like the jury can like special 
emotional case, right? 

349
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,100
I mean, like, it's one thing to 
material fact. 

350
00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:35,500
It is kind of the same as like 
when the when they ask 

351
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:36,900
questions. 
They know they're not allowed to

352
00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:39,100
ask, and then they it gets 
objected. 

353
00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:41,800
And then the judge says, okay. 
Ignore that it's like, well, 

354
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:43,900
they already heard it. 
And that's kind of like a little

355
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:46,100
bit of a slimeball move but they
vote will science. 

356
00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:47,600
Have definitely used it. 
Okay. 

357
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,400
Sorry. 
This is a very basic question, 

358
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:54,800
but like Elizabeth and Sonny are
both on trial in this case or 

359
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,400
they are separate cases. 
No, sonny is separate has a 

360
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,900
separate case separate trial 
that will start next year. 

361
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:03,200
They were they should have been 
tried together but they got 

362
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:04,400
their cases. 
Severed. 

363
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,500
And part of the reason that they
argued for successfully for it, 

364
00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:10,500
was that she said she can't be 
in the same room as him. 

365
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:15,800
Him because of this abuse. 
And I mean it kind of works the 

366
00:19:15,808 --> 00:19:18,100
both of their advantages because
they might be able to both get 

367
00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:22,500
off by blaming each other. 
But they're they're both very 

368
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,000
important and relevant in each 
side's case because it want to 

369
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,200
of the charges are conspiracy. 
And so they conspired together 

370
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:33,700
and we're seeing all these text 
messages where they're allegedly

371
00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:36,200
conspiring. 
You know when you contrast it 

372
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,000
with her being able to answer 
these very specific rapid-fire 

373
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,400
questions Like yes, yes, yes. 
And from her lawyers and then 

374
00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:48,100
and so a lot of the actually the
prosecution has done a lot of 

375
00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:49,600
hammering her on the I don't 
know. 

376
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,300
Like he'll say that's your 
testimony. 

377
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:53,100
That this is your inhale, repeat
it back to her. 

378
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:55,100
This is your testimony. 
That you don't know this thing. 

379
00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,100
And I mean, we'll see if that if
that would be infuriating to 

380
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:02,400
watch. 
I mean, it's just but it's 

381
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,500
interesting. 
I mean, it seems to me like most

382
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:07,200
of the defense's case is that 
she was a victim. 

383
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,700
Not that an end if she misled 
people was only because Does 

384
00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:14,500
that is the nature of raising 
money where you have to Project,

385
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:17,800
Blue Sky Futures in order to get
people excited about it and if 

386
00:20:17,808 --> 00:20:20,500
it doesn't work out you know, 
don't hate the player, hate the 

387
00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:25,400
game and and does she seem like 
a cult leader like just you have

388
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,500
a reality Distortion field or 
she seems. 

389
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,800
She's trying to project being a 
little bit more me core. 

390
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,600
How much does it seem like you 
could see why a bunch of 

391
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:39,500
investors were wooed by her. 
I mean when you when she is gets

392
00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:42,200
a question that she liked Sure 
that she knows the answer to. 

393
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,200
She does this thing which I 
think you can see on any video 

394
00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:50,600
interview of her back in the in 
the Heyday where she like nods 

395
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,100
and makes this really sincere 
eye contact and like has this 

396
00:20:54,100 --> 00:21:01,100
like kind of like kind of weird 
smile and yeah you can see how 

397
00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:04,300
it's like very practiced and 
it's like it. 

398
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,300
You can see how it's compelling 
especially for people who want 

399
00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:09,100
to, you know, believe in what 
she's pitching. 

400
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,900
I think it could also be be 
off-putting, knowing what we 

401
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:14,800
know. 
Now, you're not about to join 

402
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,600
her call. 
You're like, right, it's either 

403
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,200
like charming and effects. 
It's a thin line between 

404
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,000
charming and effective in a 
sociopath. 

405
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:22,400
Yeah. 
It's kind of like, when customer

406
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,200
service people are like, like, 
handling, you, with kid gloves 

407
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,800
and you're like, just just do 
think your name over and over 

408
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,200
again? 
Yeah, stop doing that. 

409
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,000
It's like really off-putting. 
Let me give you the money, 

410
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,400
Elizabeth. 
How's the jury doing? 

411
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,100
What's your sense? 
Just this many weeks into this 

412
00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:40,500
whole thing. 
I know there was a bit of drama.

413
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,300
Leon people wanted to take 
vacations. 

414
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,300
What did we talk about the 
sodoku player? 

415
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,300
I don't think so about halfway 
through one of the jurors was 

416
00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:53,000
dismissed for playing sudoku 
during testimony. 

417
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,300
One of the other jurors knocked 
her out and they had she her 

418
00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:00,400
excuse was that she's like very 
fidgety and she needs to like 

419
00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:02,200
have something to do with her 
hands. 

420
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,600
And so it was just to keep her 
occupied. 

421
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,400
Did that'll play out during the 
trial, was there just like that,

422
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:09,600
you know, like a teacher calling
out a students like, what do you

423
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:10,400
have there? 
No. 

424
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,300
They did it in the judge's 
Chambers and so we didn't find 

425
00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:14,900
out about. 
We just heard that a juror was 

426
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:17,500
dismissed and we didn't find out
about it until it came out later

427
00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:20,400
and the transcripts and she was 
like, very apologetic and she's 

428
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,700
like, I'm swear. 
I'm taking this seriously. 

429
00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:27,800
And, and essentially the both, 
the sides, agreed to just let 

430
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,000
her go. 
I must be mortifying to tell 

431
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,100
your family, you've been gone 
for like or you're not gone. 

432
00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:37,400
But, you know, your things you 
wanted to crochet, but like that

433
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,400
seemed inappropriate. 
Do they let you do that. 

434
00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:42,500
No, I don't think. 
I mean, no. 

435
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:45,300
I think that would be worse. 
Probably there goes the book 

436
00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:49,000
deal. 
But okay, so we lost one for 

437
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,200
playing sudoku but generally, I 
mean, what's your senses to 

438
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,100
their energy level, you know, 
this many weeks and I would just

439
00:22:56,100 --> 00:22:58,000
be flagging, like, I couldn't 
pay attention. 

440
00:22:58,100 --> 00:23:02,600
I know it's crazy and they seem 
like they seem engaged, but it's

441
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,400
so hard to tell, because they 
have masks on, and they really 

442
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,700
are not reacting to anything. 
And like, there's either all 

443
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:13,500
taking notes, There is one guy 
who likes top proceedings and 

444
00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:16,100
like, waved his arm and we're 
like, oh no, what's happening? 

445
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:19,500
And oh, his pen, ran out of ink.
And so like, somebody had to 

446
00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:23,200
bring a pen over to him. 
And I'm like, man, I mean, so 

447
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:24,900
they seem they seem pretty 
engaged. 

448
00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:27,200
I don't know. 
Sometimes I look and I'm like, 

449
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,400
is that person sleeping, but 
their exhibits are below them. 

450
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,600
So I think they're just looking 
at the exhibits, but I don't 

451
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,400
know, man. 
It's, it's impressive. 

452
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,300
When the judge was planning the 
timing for the rest of the 

453
00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:40,500
trial, like, I thought I would 
be in court today. 

454
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,300
A and yesterday and you know, 
most of next week. 

455
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:47,200
And for some reason, closings 
aren't starting until like a 

456
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,600
full week after the prosecutor, 
the defense rested and the jury 

457
00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:56,100
is, they're like, oh yeah, we're
fine to deliberate on Christmas 

458
00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:57,000
Eve. 
We don't care. 

459
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:02,600
Like they don't seem like 
stressed which is kind of crazy 

460
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,300
and impressive, so forth. 
When's this thing gonna get 

461
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:07,700
wrapped up or I hope Before 
Christmas? 

462
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,100
It's so there's two days of 
Closing statements or arguments 

463
00:24:12,100 --> 00:24:15,700
next week and then it will go to
the jury maybe as early as next 

464
00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:18,500
Friday. 
And then the week of the 20th is

465
00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:21,300
all open for deliberation. 
So I hope you know, it takes him

466
00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:25,900
a day or two and they come back 
and we can all have a Christmas.

467
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,100
Yeah. 
Well then you'll have to talk to

468
00:24:28,108 --> 00:24:29,500
the jurors, right? 
I mean that's always the 

469
00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:31,900
exciting moment post-trial when 
they finally. 

470
00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:34,100
So, that's Morgan V, right? 
I mean, yeah. 

471
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,800
Now we'll have to do it to. 
I'm a little stressed about that

472
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,500
honestly. 
Because who knows if they're 

473
00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:44,300
going to want to Talk to us or 
just like, get out of there and 

474
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,000
yeah, I want to know everyone. 
That's what everyone wants to 

475
00:24:47,008 --> 00:24:48,700
know. 
Is like what the discussions 

476
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:52,400
inside that room were right? 
Right, depending on the outcome.

477
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,400
So my last question for you, 
Aaron, because we gotta let you 

478
00:24:55,408 --> 00:25:00,400
go is So is Elizabeth Halsey 
product of Silicon Valley? 

479
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,500
Oh my God. 
I think about this so much 

480
00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:09,200
because I've gotten, you know, a
lot of VCS in my DMs, like, come

481
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,600
on. 
This is not a pie made the 

482
00:25:10,608 --> 00:25:13,500
mistake of engaging in that 
debate and I am still getting 

483
00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:15,200
mentions from it. 
Yeah. 

484
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,000
And I think I need to like, just
dig in and do a story on it, 

485
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,200
but, you know, some people are 
really worked up about this. 

486
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,200
They're so angry. 
They don't want to be associated

487
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,700
with this at all Eric's buddy. 
Keith raboy said that when a 

488
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:29,400
reporter Stood that she was a 
private Silicon Valley said that

489
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,600
was more, there's more 
untruthful that anything Trump 

490
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,300
has ever said. 
Oh my God, oh my God, that's 

491
00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:40,200
ridiculous. 
Wow, what I mean. 

492
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,700
Okay, so just the facts here. 
Palo Alto is in Silicon Valley. 

493
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,300
Stanford is very closely 
associated with Silicon Valley. 

494
00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:53,700
She went to Stanford the Hoover 
Institute as Stanford is where 

495
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:57,400
she recruited all of her board 
her initial. 

496
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:03,600
Mr. Don Lucas legendary Silicon 
Valley investor, Tim Draper also

497
00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:07,400
like fifth generation or 
whatever, you know, Silicon 

498
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,100
Valley investor and on down the 
line and she had a number of VCS

499
00:26:12,100 --> 00:26:16,000
and they the the current, you 
know, industry and commentators 

500
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,400
want to dismiss them and be like
they're not real Silicon Valley 

501
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,500
visas. 
We all pass on a great. 

502
00:26:20,500 --> 00:26:24,200
Many people did pass on this and
many people said it didn't pass 

503
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,600
the smell test, whatever, like 
that's fantastic, but And shirt 

504
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,000
DeVos the DeVos family, the 
Murdock's The Waltons, the Cox 

505
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,000
family. 
Those are not Silicon Valley 

506
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,000
investors but like she was still
following the Playbook, she was 

507
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,500
trying to emulate Steve Jobs. 
She was physically here in 

508
00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:49,500
Silicon Valley, that all of that
makes me like and it's sort of 

509
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:53,300
it's sort of if it's into like 
how Elizabeth Holmes lies right.

510
00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:57,000
Instead of directly telling you 
sort of a misstatement. 

511
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,600
It's Letting you come away with 
an impression and sort of 

512
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,400
letting the chips fall where 
they are. 

513
00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:05,300
And I do think there's a degree 
to which Silicon Valley culture 

514
00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:08,100
is also sort of very interested 
in that kind of line. 

515
00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:11,300
Like, you know, Marc Andreessen 
would block people who didn't 

516
00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:15,000
like their nose, his wife wrote 
an op-ed defending Elizabeth 

517
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,500
Holmes, you know, there can I 
really something really quickly 

518
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:21,500
because when that was going on I
just Googled dfj fairness and 

519
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:25,500
there is a Facebook post from 
dfj that is still up that says 

520
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:28,800
under dfj proud to have back. 
Elizabeth Holmes and fairness 

521
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,800
for over a decade as her very 
first, investor homes is 

522
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,200
company. 
There are no stands on the cusp 

523
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,000
of unleashing, a revolution and 
Drug development and home health

524
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,700
care. 
That could spawn a new industry 

525
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:40,300
much like the bay area's 
Genentech did Ababa. 

526
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,800
This is still fuck it up there 
under D fj's payment. 

527
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,700
When was that published, March, 
1st, 2014, I can send it in the,

528
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,500
okay, so that's that's before 
the the downfall but yeah, yeah,

529
00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:52,800
yeah. 
But if you solve, if Silicon 

530
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,600
Valley didn't want to get blamed
for their nose, they could have 

531
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,600
taken a principal. 
Then, you know, we could have a 

532
00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:01,600
alternative story where she 
tries to raise money from. 

533
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,900
Some very credentialed, VC, and 
they're the ones blowing, the 

534
00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:07,000
whistle and saying she's trying 
to defraud us. 

535
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,300
Well, there's some of the things
she's saying isn't true. 

536
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:12,500
Instead, it was, you know, her 
employees that blew the whistle.

537
00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:17,400
So I just think their failure to
stand up if they were to say 

538
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,800
anything. 
And, and also they were 

539
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,800
constantly, sort of rejecting 
sort of push back on Twitter. 

540
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,300
You know, it felt like the 
presumption. 

541
00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:30,300
It was a it was Dave Moore and 
didn't Dave Moore in criticized 

542
00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:32,700
on the information? 
Yeah it's that but I'm saying 

543
00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:36,200
like every Silicon Valley 
character was still sort of like

544
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:40,300
trying to show their credentials
for how you could be raw and 

545
00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:43,900
supportive and was not at all. 
Trying to say o, Silicon Valley 

546
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:47,500
is actually about being 
Discerning and separating sort 

547
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:50,500
of the good from the bad and so 
then when it's really bad for 

548
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:52,300
them. 
Yeah, of course you're going to 

549
00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:55,400
get blamed because you didn't 
take any sort of proactive 

550
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,600
action to separate yourself. 
From a and so now you're mad at 

551
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,600
people for attaching new to it 
when everything you said is 

552
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,700
absolutely true. 
So I do agree their failure to 

553
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:10,300
say anything at the time. 
Partially justifies why they get

554
00:29:10,300 --> 00:29:13,500
tagged with it. 
Even if, you know, probably the 

555
00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:18,700
most directly, you know, family 
has is, are the biggest it also 

556
00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:21,700
speaks to, like, a current 
circle, the wagons and 

557
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:25,500
groupthink mentality from a lot 
of VCS right now, which is at 

558
00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:28,400
the Press, is out to get us and 
there are Comparing us to the 

559
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,700
worst of what the, you know, 
Peter and every has other words,

560
00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:34,300
if you were to extend that to 
any other industry would make 

561
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:36,700
any sense, if you were to say 
that someone who makes a movie 

562
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:39,700
that bombs had nothing to do 
with Hollywood culture or that 

563
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:42,400
Bernie Madoff had nothing to do 
with Wall Street culture. 

564
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,600
He's like go ahead and try that 
argument right away. 

565
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,400
They are products. 
They are products of the world 

566
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:48,900
that you though. 
You're successful. 

567
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:52,200
And hopefully on the up-and-up 
are not examples of. 

568
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:54,700
It's still in the same. 
You're still swimming in the 

569
00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:56,400
same pool. 
Right. 

570
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,500
Many of the strategies that she 
used are used by other Founders.

571
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:03,700
They just don't go that far. 
They just don't like get, you 

572
00:30:03,708 --> 00:30:07,600
know, they just don't take it to
the level of actual fraud or 

573
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,700
some do when they don't get 
invited for it. 

574
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,300
I think, if Silicon Valley wants
people to know what they stand 

575
00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:16,100
for. 
They have to say it explicitly, 

576
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,000
but we give us one concluding. 
What's been your favorite 

577
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,300
vignette or moment? 
Or like, doesn't have to be 

578
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:25,700
serious, or like, who's the, 
who's the celebrity? 

579
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:28,600
Sir, who's the, like, what's, 
what sort of the funny or I 

580
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,000
would be trying to be made along
the way. 

581
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,800
Elizabeth Holmes, family 
members, behaving, strangely, or

582
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,400
what's, what's going on? 
It's not making this story, that

583
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,300
sort of like the talk among 
reporters. 

584
00:30:37,300 --> 00:30:40,300
So much for the gadflies. 
Like, who are you going to miss 

585
00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:41,200
when? 
You don't have to go to the 

586
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,100
courthouse. 
There's so much weird stuff that

587
00:30:43,100 --> 00:30:47,800
has happened. 
Like I, I like inadvertently got

588
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,900
in a fight with this guy who had
driven up from LA and chugged 5,

589
00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:55,700
red bulls and was like confused 
about the order of the line. 

590
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,900
I'm going in and like, there's 
this cut off at 34 and so 

591
00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:01,400
there's actually a lot of a lot 
at stake. 

592
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,700
If you're under 30 for you, get 
in the courtroom and if you're 

593
00:31:03,700 --> 00:31:07,700
over you again, the mean number 
of number of people not to yes. 

594
00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:08,500
Yes. 
Ari. 

595
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,200
Okay. 
And so anyway that was a little 

596
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,000
bit dramatic. 
What were you? 

597
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,900
I was he was trying to cut in 
front of me. 

598
00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:18,300
Basically. 
I was maybe like 32 or 

599
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:19,900
something. 
Oh Jesus that's high-stakes. 

600
00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:22,000
How was he was? 
Just trying to force it. 

601
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,700
Like he was confused because 
there are multiple Scots in 

602
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:25,700
line. 
He was confused. 

603
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:29,800
Which Scott, he was. 
And anyway, we it all worked 

604
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,900
out, it was fine, but there's 
always a little bit of like line

605
00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:35,400
drama and there's a lot of 
Spectators. 

606
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,900
I don't know if you guys read 
about, there was one group that 

607
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:42,800
came they were selling black 
turtlenecks, red lipstick. 

608
00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:45,700
They kept getting in trouble 
though because you're not 

609
00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:48,400
allowed to sell things on 
federal property. 

610
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,500
And so, the security guard kept 
yelling at them and they're 

611
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:54,500
like, no, it's performance art. 
And oh my God, I got to use that

612
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:56,400
one. 
There was there's a A guy who 

613
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,300
has hung around a few times. 
And when Holmes walks in, he 

614
00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:02,700
yells you go girl, boss your 
girl boss. 

615
00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:05,700
There's been some tarot cards 
playing in the line because 

616
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:08,500
we're sitting there for five 
hours every day before the court

617
00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:10,700
even opens. 
And so we have a lot of we have 

618
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:12,000
a lot of time to kill all of you
guys. 

619
00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:16,200
Well, we did a reading for homes
and it was it looked pretty 

620
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,100
positive for her. 
Wow. 

621
00:32:18,700 --> 00:32:20,700
Wow. 
I mean, that's what Colleen. 

622
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,500
Yeah, I think that. 
Yeah, that would definitely 

623
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:26,900
affect the betting markets. 
So, What was your read and 

624
00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:30,500
remember the cars. 
So, I'm a terrible person but I 

625
00:32:30,500 --> 00:32:35,000
think one of them was like the 
was about was like a kind of a 

626
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,900
girl boss card. 
And then I think one of them was

627
00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:42,000
like, is that a real Taro? 
This was the interpretation of 

628
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:47,300
the person who's doing it and 
one of them was maybe something 

629
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:51,500
about, oh crap now I'm sorry, 
I'm totally the great unblinking

630
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:54,600
eye. 
Yeah there was one about like 

631
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,800
fortune or Having having things 
work out for you. 

632
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,400
There's one of maybe about 
deception. 

633
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,100
I really can't remember now. 
Sorry? 

634
00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:02,800
Disappointing. 
Have a break for the price of 

635
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:08,700
anything. 
Anyway, Aaron this is great. 

636
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:10,100
Yeah, thanks so much for 
joining. 

637
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,600
Enjoy your days off and 
hopefully enjoy having a real 

638
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,100
Christmas. 
Yeah, yeah. 

639
00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:17,200
Thanks, I'm not San Jose. 
All right. 

640
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,200
Cool. 
That was great. 

641
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,100
Oh, the judge also keeps keeps 
calling the trial a moveable 

642
00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:25,600
feast which like it's really a 
fan, really upset. 

643
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,400
Me because I'm like this could 
not be further from. 

644
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,100
I'm sitting on the ground for 
find a bar wrappers all around 

645
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:33,800
you. 
Yeah, eating Luna bars. 

646
00:33:34,500 --> 00:33:37,300
This is this could not be 
farther than Hemingway's pairs. 

647
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:43,000
Yeah. 
Kicking me the recap on Aaron. 

648
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,000
Did she think that Elizabeth 
Holmes was convincing? 

649
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,900
Hmm, didn't seem like it. 
No, and I'd asked her because 

650
00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:53,400
Insider ran a piece by a 
demotion ski actually saying 

651
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:54,600
that. 
Like, when Elizabeth Holmes 

652
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,200
testified and gave a t read, you
know, whatever tearful 

653
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,300
explanation of how she was 
manipulated and abused by 

654
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:06,000
Sunnyvale hwanhee, that that 
changed the entire momentum of 

655
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,900
the trial into the defense's 
favor. 

656
00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:10,300
And she was, I think a little 
more skeptical. 

657
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,400
All right. 
Yeah, but she's not I don't 

658
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,600
think she can really say 
outright. 

659
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,400
That was my interpretation. 
But what is this? 

660
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,100
Chris Dixon tweet. 
So, so what happened? 

661
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:22,600
When I can give you the whole 
rundown? 

662
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,600
It's like the Twitter recap 
section. 

663
00:34:26,699 --> 00:34:29,199
Yeah. 
So some Bloomberg reporter 

664
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,400
tweeted out, something to the 
effect of like someone just told

665
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,199
me that crypto is is Mary Kay 
for males and I'm dying right 

666
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:40,500
now or some like internet and 
collect Medics company that You 

667
00:34:40,507 --> 00:34:42,400
have to uses anymore. 
Yeah. 

668
00:34:42,699 --> 00:34:46,699
So it was like a pretty weak 
joke, like a 4 out of 10 but it,

669
00:34:46,699 --> 00:34:49,699
it, you know, became viral 
because that's what succeeds 

670
00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:51,199
these days. 
So we got like seven thousand 

671
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,300
retweets. 
You know, I blame Tick-Tock for 

672
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:56,400
that cuz it's made us all laugh 
at things aren't funny anymore. 

673
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,900
It's all funny, especially 
reporters, Tracy. 

674
00:34:58,900 --> 00:35:01,000
All the way. 
Just saw someone described 

675
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,000
crypto as Mary, Kay for young 
men and now I'm dying. 

676
00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:09,600
Yeah, it has like 13,000 
awful's, awful, just no effort, 

677
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,800
no degree of Uncle teacher. 
I see I'm say it's just a way 

678
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,100
for Bloomberg to try and insult 
web three yet again on. 

679
00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:18,400
December 7th. 
This is Chris Dixon. 

680
00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:20,600
Yeah, so then he has a follow-up
tweet to that. 

681
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,700
That says, this is why we should
never talk to reporters. 

682
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:26,200
All they do is use it as an 
opportunity to dunk on you. 

683
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:27,700
Later on Twitter, on December 
8th. 

684
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:31,100
You says whether he is unusual 
in that innovators dilemma plays

685
00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:33,400
out at every level including 
media coverage. 

686
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,600
And then he says, which is also 
why it's a great opportunity for

687
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,200
up-and-coming journalists, you 
know, they know that they need 

688
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,300
your illness but they can't. 
Themselves, but should on 

689
00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:45,400
journalists constantly. 
It's, yeah, I'm trying to find. 

690
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,600
I think maybe Everything's 
changed since I left, but I 

691
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,300
vaguely recall. 
When I lived in California, that

692
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,600
a 16z actually didn't hate the 
kind of like that. 

693
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,800
I mean, it was like, it was 
mixed, right? 

694
00:35:57,900 --> 00:35:59,600
Like, they like this one. 
I like to say, I didn't when 

695
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,600
they didn't like any normal 
company, so it's just now, like,

696
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,400
just a all, they're all out 
there, like, no, never mind. 

697
00:36:06,700 --> 00:36:09,400
I mean, Chris Dixon is super 
anti-media, I mean, definitely, 

698
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,900
I'm looking through all this 
Former board member at BuzzFeed.

699
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:16,300
So a big led the entries that 
investment in in bone. 

700
00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:19,600
So oh yeah. 
Oh yeah. 

701
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,900
One of my favorite investment 
posts so but they're the must 

702
00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:25,000
still be locked up. 
I mean, the IPO don't let anyone

703
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,200
else. 
Well, he stepped down from the 

704
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,200
board so I don't know what 
BuzzFeed injuries and state 

705
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,100
currently is in BuzzFeed, but 
yes, they invested in 2014. 

706
00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:35,000
I remember this because it 
wasn't long after I joined the 

707
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,800
information and Chris Dixon put 
out a post explaining their 

708
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,000
investment saying that Actually,
BuzzFeed is a tech company if 

709
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,600
you want a real web 3 News go 
direct and follow primary 

710
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:49,300
sources, I mean, clearly the 
flip side of this is that 

711
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,900
Andreessen is super Vindicated 
in their anti-media stance. 

712
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,100
And recent is super Vindicated 
this week because of that 

713
00:36:57,100 --> 00:37:01,000
businessweek piece that 
basically said that Marc 

714
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,000
Andreessen and Ben Horowitz were
starting to phase back their 

715
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,900
involvement in the firm when 
they seem like the most 

716
00:37:07,900 --> 00:37:10,400
workaholic. 
And if anything I would say, The

717
00:37:10,408 --> 00:37:13,500
Narrative and reason is that 
those two are domineering over 

718
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:17,100
the firm that there's a very 
clear hierarchy within the firm.

719
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:21,200
And there is a lot of jealousy 
among Partners about who gets 

720
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,600
status and sort of what the 
pecking order is. 

721
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,800
So I was very surprised, sure, 
they're moving places and like 

722
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,800
we're all remote now. 
But the idea that they're 

723
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,800
stepping putting they're taking 
their foot off the gas and 

724
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,600
anyway because they're on fewer 
board seats. 

725
00:37:37,700 --> 00:37:43,000
I found super implausible. 
Then Mark and been jumped on 

726
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:49,000
Twitter, to make fun of the 
story and it just was I feel bad

727
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,700
for my former colleagues a 
little bit because I didn't 

728
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:57,300
think it made them look great. 
And also, like they're stepping 

729
00:37:57,300 --> 00:38:00,700
back, is it proven that they're 
the people who made all the best

730
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:02,800
investments and it would 
actually impact the firm's 

731
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,200
performance at all? 
I mean, I thought then, I mean, 

732
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,100
Mark, Mark is not Mark. 
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a 

733
00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:13,000
story that, you know, Mark is 
Not personally necessarily the 

734
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,100
best picker but is a good seller
for the firm is good. 

735
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:18,600
At the Vivid Visions or the 
marketer. 

736
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,600
Superheated you need a, you need
a Salesman but that's been true 

737
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,700
for ever. 
That's not a change, I mean 

738
00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:27,900
right in bet. 
But then I mean is you know 

739
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,300
super involved a lot of the hard
decisions and I know he's super 

740
00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:36,800
involved in the crypto fund. 
So, yeah, I found that story a 

741
00:38:36,808 --> 00:38:40,900
little, maybe they'll look smart
but I mean You know, these 

742
00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:44,000
things phase out for so long. 
I just I feel like it was a big 

743
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,500
claim to make to well the other 
part of it was that they had 

744
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:48,500
stepped off of a couple of their
boards, right? 

745
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:52,800
They'd gone from like 11 boards 
to seven boards which I don't I 

746
00:38:52,808 --> 00:38:54,200
don't know what that really 
means. 

747
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,100
If that's, I mean at a time well
you know, formation predicting, 

748
00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:00,400
you know what berber and the 
information predicting the and 

749
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,200
reasons going to go public, I 
don't have this sourcing to say 

750
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,800
that I wrote a story saying that
they had Ambitions to be like an

751
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,900
Apollo. 
I didn't think That meant they 

752
00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:14,100
needed to do a public listing, 
but they're clearly growing that

753
00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:17,100
firm enormously so they're doing
a ton of work. 

754
00:39:17,100 --> 00:39:20,300
I mean it's a huge. 
The management of the firm is 

755
00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:23,200
becoming bigger and bigger. 
The only reason I think that an 

756
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,800
IPO for injuries might be smart 
and probably not for a lot of 

757
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:31,300
other VC firms is because their 
operation is so large and 

758
00:39:31,300 --> 00:39:35,900
encompasses so much outside of 
investing like an order for just

759
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:40,200
the profits from investment to 
continue to always consistently.

760
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,600
For that many human beings who 
do that many not investing 

761
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,700
activities, it would be possibly
nice to have a public market 

762
00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:52,100
support system, so they could 
build off of that, you know, 

763
00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:54,400
kind of like the what Blackstone
did I met? 

764
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,100
Chris Dixon Wells. 
He'll never remember me. 

765
00:39:56,100 --> 00:40:00,100
But we met at a recent event and
I thought he was really smart 

766
00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:02,100
and interesting talk to. 
I don't know. 

767
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,000
I guess that's too like these 
people. 

768
00:40:04,100 --> 00:40:07,000
I met him also at one and I was,
of course, trying to work him 

769
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,200
for information about BuzzFeed 
hilarious. 

770
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:11,900
Little did. 
I know he didn't really give a 

771
00:40:11,900 --> 00:40:17,700
shit about Buzz? 
Yeah, well, I was listening to 

772
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:21,000
him, talk, never heard on that, 
is on the Tim Ferriss podcast 

773
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,400
with navall. 
And the funny thing about, you 

774
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,100
know, obviously sort of Chris 
and of all seem much smarter 

775
00:40:28,100 --> 00:40:32,700
than Tim and Tim just plays sort
of bemuse, like, explain this to

776
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:38,100
me, which is, you know, I guess 
the softball Tech loves that. 

777
00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:39,900
It's just like, oh, yeah, yeah, 
where the Gods? 

778
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:43,700
In the world to you. 
But I mean, Chris like clearly 

779
00:40:43,700 --> 00:40:48,100
loves philosophy and some ways 
use the kind of person reporters

780
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:53,200
like where he's very sort of 
Humanity's interested. 

781
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,700
So it's sort of sad that there's
this breakdown who knew this was

782
00:40:57,700 --> 00:40:59,500
going to be a love letter to 
Chris Dixon. 

783
00:40:59,900 --> 00:41:00,700
Here you go. 
There you go. 

784
00:41:01,100 --> 00:41:05,700
That's a contrarian stance. 
I mean he's you know on the 

785
00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:08,800
Forefront of crypto right now. 
One of the most important things

786
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,800
going on in the world and 
Exciting thing, it's sort of sad

787
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,100
because the breakdown with the 
media and some ways is a 

788
00:41:15,100 --> 00:41:18,300
breakdown, you know, with the 
public it's like, oh fuck you 

789
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:21,900
like translated I'm saying. 
And that's a big, you're like, 

790
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,600
what's this doing? 
And that's like just a bigger 

791
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,500
thing altogether when they would
never say that. 

792
00:41:27,500 --> 00:41:30,800
Obviously, they would take great
umbrage at the idea that the 

793
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,500
media, and the public could be 
switched, you know, for each 

794
00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:37,600
other in a sentence. 
But I just think realistically, 

795
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,800
that's, that's the truth. 
Yeah. 

796
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,900
I'll tell you who has no problem
getting hype and excitement. 

797
00:41:43,900 --> 00:41:46,600
From the media though, is every 
a, our product that ever was 

798
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,400
released in the last couple of 
years. 

799
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,100
There's no shortage of reporters
willing to traipse over to 

800
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,500
whatever location to try on the 
next pair of ugly ass glasses 

801
00:41:58,300 --> 00:42:01,000
that do like 2% of what hoop 
analogy. 

802
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,900
It's the latest one. 
Well and I don't want to call it

803
00:42:03,900 --> 00:42:06,200
reporters individually because 
if I were covering the company, 

804
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,200
I would probably have gone to 
and written something nice about

805
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,500
it that you might have. 
Been forced to go. 

806
00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:13,200
Yeah. 
Well that's part of it too. 

807
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:18,300
Snap had like a developer day 
for reporters where they put out

808
00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:21,700
their latest version of their 
augmented reality glasses and 

809
00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:23,300
got pretty pretty. 
Nice. 

810
00:42:23,300 --> 00:42:27,500
Write-ups from The Verge Alex 
Heath, former colleague of mine 

811
00:42:27,500 --> 00:42:30,600
and and Casey Newton who 
basically we're saying like 

812
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,300
look, it's limited. 
What it can do the field of 

813
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:36,300
vision from for augmented. 
Reality is not all that great 

814
00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:39,200
and the things it can do or 
mostly in the realm of toy 

815
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,800
rather than huge You know world 
changing technology but the 

816
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,100
colonel of what it could be is 
there and for the first time in 

817
00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:48,100
my life I can see you know over 
the horizon. 

818
00:42:48,100 --> 00:42:52,100
What this thing is promise and 
like look maybe in the Elation 

819
00:42:52,100 --> 00:42:54,400
of some trying something cool 
and new you might think 

820
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,000
something like that but it's 
again hard for me to square that

821
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,700
mentality with the either 
ignorance or derision of crypto 

822
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,500
which is like I was saying for 
we start recording probably at 

823
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:09,200
the same stage in terms of 
public acceptance and like by I 

824
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,100
think I was you reporter As you 
mentioned are also very 

825
00:43:12,100 --> 00:43:15,000
intrigued by crypto to. 
So that's one. 

826
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,200
Flaw with your, your claim here 
that somehow a are gets more fun

827
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,100
and coverage than crypto mean 
they both, they both are, I 

828
00:43:22,107 --> 00:43:22,500
guess. 
What? 

829
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:25,300
I want to see is like, watch 
someone write a piece saying, 

830
00:43:25,300 --> 00:43:28,400
how the, I just had a crypt like
an AR demo and it sucked. 

831
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,900
And this kind of goes back to 
the conversation. 

832
00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:35,400
We had ages ago, where it was 
like what is the benefit of 

833
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,500
writing that something is just 
bad, right? 

834
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:41,100
Why not just ignore it. 
Not just ignore it. 

835
00:43:41,100 --> 00:43:46,100
Like did we nobody wanted to say
I don't know, write a big story 

836
00:43:46,100 --> 00:43:48,900
about how the flying car was 
stupid waste of money and it was

837
00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:51,300
going to be a drag companies 
that tried it. 

838
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:55,300
Like it's just like why bother 
just look funny phenomenon. 

839
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,600
You know is people who quote 
tweet tweets that they hate, you

840
00:43:59,607 --> 00:44:02,700
know, it's like, oh, you're 
Distributing this very thing. 

841
00:44:02,700 --> 00:44:08,600
You profess to despise and and 
so it's just a very human 

842
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,200
online. 
Isshin that you amplify the very

843
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,300
thing you wish to suppress. 
But do you read stories about 

844
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:17,600
things that people don't like? 
I mean I don't unless it's 

845
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,600
Anthony mi re do he just likes 
him. 

846
00:44:19,700 --> 00:44:21,700
I mean obviously if it's 
well-written did you read the 

847
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:26,300
wonderful piece about that the 
one-star Michelin restaurant? 

848
00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:28,800
I think it was in some Italian 
city. 

849
00:44:29,100 --> 00:44:33,200
It was I think 27 courses, 
mostly consisting of like fish 

850
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,500
flavored foam. 
They left Hungary, it was just 

851
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:39,600
terrible. 
That's true but I didn't see 

852
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:44,200
that as Necessarily something 
about, I didn't see that as this

853
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,100
is something I disliked, I saw 
that Maura has this is something

854
00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:50,800
that was extraordinarily weird 
and unlikable. 

855
00:44:51,100 --> 00:44:54,500
Yeah, what I loved more was the 
chef's response which is the 

856
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:57,800
increasingly abstract, but 
pictures images of a man on the 

857
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,500
horse right? 
Beautiful. 

858
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:04,600
Well somebody somebody 
translated it as like oh is 

859
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,800
response wasn't do the food's 
actually good. 

860
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,300
Like fuck you. 
It's I'm trying to abstract Act 

861
00:45:10,300 --> 00:45:14,100
a way, the nests necessity of 
food because which is 

862
00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:28,000
exactly exactly. 
It was like, it was like, you 

863
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,800
know, watching the movie 
Breaking the Waves or something 

864
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,200
or let's say, I mean, it was 
just like, right? 

865
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,900
Yeah, anybody can charge you 
$200 and make you feel like you 

866
00:45:36,900 --> 00:45:38,900
just had a great time. 
I'm going to do something 

867
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:41,600
different, right? 
Students and enjoyment bike, 

868
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,200
that's very 20th century when it
comes to food. 

869
00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:48,500
Like, what about just pure 
confusion and like, discuss, 

870
00:45:48,500 --> 00:45:50,800
right? 
I will say, I actually thought I

871
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:52,900
liked the article, I thought it 
was kind of annoyingly written 

872
00:45:52,900 --> 00:45:55,300
and it's like a certain kind of 
Internet language that I just 

873
00:45:55,300 --> 00:45:57,300
find sort of tired. 
I knew that it was probably 

874
00:45:57,300 --> 00:46:00,800
going to go viral or is written 
as sort of like yeah. 

875
00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:03,500
I don't know, just what just 
language, I'm curious where you 

876
00:46:03,508 --> 00:46:05,800
didn't, like, I can bring up the
article. 

877
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,900
Specifically there was just 
lines here and there that were 

878
00:46:07,900 --> 00:46:10,800
just like derivative of a 
certain type of Like internet 

879
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,900
humor that I just thrust 
tiresome and it just like, yeah,

880
00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:17,800
like the front. 
I will take all of it to me all 

881
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,300
of it. 
To me, was worthwhile just for 

882
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:24,600
the photo and idea of licking, 
whatever, fish foam out of a 

883
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,200
mold cast of The Chef's mouth. 
I mean, that is that is genius 

884
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,400
level stuff. 
Like that idea is so it wasn't 

885
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,800
purely novel in the other 
restaurants have done 

886
00:46:35,300 --> 00:46:38,400
specifically like the cast of 
The I thought when I saw some 

887
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,600
other pictures of Yeah, no one's
done that at nopa. 

888
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,700
So this is, this is much as I 
know. 

889
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,500
Yes. 
Let he who has not gone to a 

890
00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:49,800
tasting meal. 
Cast the first stone? 

891
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:55,200
Yeah, I went to guy Savoy in 
Paris, which is many several 

892
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,000
Michelin stars. 
It's just like the problem with 

893
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,100
that is you just need to be 
like, you get wealthy enough, 

894
00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:04,700
you can afford the wealthy thing
but you're not wealthy enough to

895
00:47:04,700 --> 00:47:07,500
not care about the things, you 
know, it's like Iris to 

896
00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:11,400
price-conscious, you know, suck 
I Maybe enjoy that meal of. 

897
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,900
It was like, the amount of money
was like, a throwaway to me. 

898
00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:17,700
So then it was like, whatever. 
But it's just there if you see 

899
00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:19,700
it, as why are you guys trying 
to upsell me? 

900
00:47:19,700 --> 00:47:23,400
Like every time the I think the 
water bottle, we got to we're 

901
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,400
sorry, we didn't get tablet. 
We asked for just water and what

902
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,500
they gave us was like a 30 
dollar twenty thirty dollar 

903
00:47:29,500 --> 00:47:30,900
bottle of water. 
We had two of them. 

904
00:47:30,900 --> 00:47:35,600
So our water budget for that 
meal was like $50 alone and it 

905
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,400
was also lunch. 
We went for with the water 

906
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:38,900
paired with the individual 
dishes. 

907
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,600
Now there was not a Our 
sommelier and, you know, we went

908
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:46,100
for lunch and then you get the 
like actual lunch menu and to 

909
00:47:46,100 --> 00:47:49,600
get like the Velar. 
Something is like a 60 Euro up 

910
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,500
charge. 
Oh, I share a joke. 

911
00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:56,400
Sarah, Joe is overhearing me. 
She just she chatted me the 

912
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,000
bottle. 
It was 28 Euros. 

913
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,600
A bottle. 
I'm underselling it. 

914
00:47:59,700 --> 00:48:03,200
But was the restaurant, like, 
was a place where you're like, 

915
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,800
this is really fancy and lovely.
And did you feel like not doing 

916
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,100
something like very special? 
There was a loss. 

917
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,500
Opportunity like a big milestone
event. 

918
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:16,400
Did you feel like you lost an 
opportunity because it might 

919
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,700
have been the best setting for 
right? 

920
00:48:18,700 --> 00:48:20,100
I think. 
I can't get it. 

921
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,200
I can't get it. 
Oh, I was just gonna say, Eric 

922
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,600
lost the opportunity to write a 
blog post about it, but maybe 

923
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,300
there are things that matter 
more than that, I don't know. 

924
00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:31,700
Of course, the restaurant you 
enjoy the most is the one we had

925
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:35,900
this terrible bike ride. 
That was like so many times too 

926
00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:40,100
difficult for us but the lunch 
we had, you know, frantically 

927
00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:43,000
The lunch places were going to 
be closed, was, you know, the 

928
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,500
best meal of the trip. 
Because you're like exhausted, 

929
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:50,000
we ordered a espressos during 
the cheese course, you know, 

930
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,700
during Desert, and the waitress 
who seemed like she must have 

931
00:48:53,700 --> 00:48:56,800
been the owner, like, scolded us
that we couldn't wait until the 

932
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:57,800
cheese. 
Course was done have the 

933
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:01,500
espresso at the appropriate time
and she she literally walks up 

934
00:49:01,500 --> 00:49:03,600
to one table. 
And she's like, you're a good 

935
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,700
french. 
Couple she goes up to Anna. 

936
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:07,900
You're a good french couple and 
you okay? 

937
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,100
Kids have no, I mean, it wasn't 
good. 

938
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,600
It fun but it was just like 
classic like we're anxious about

939
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,600
you know, get it where we want 
to get out of there. 

940
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,000
Like continue our bike ride, 
it's like take the lunch, you 

941
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:23,000
know, enjoy the espresso. 
When you're honestly, Eric, let 

942
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:24,600
him have it, give it to them. 
Because that's literally the 

943
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:29,700
last thing Europeans have I know
it's like they're better than us

944
00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:34,800
is better than us in any sort of
like, you know, refined cultural

945
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,400
setting. 
I'm the terrible American who 

946
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,600
comes back and I'm like nobody 
was working there like we're The

947
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,700
white collar workers on their 
laptops like grinding away like 

948
00:49:43,700 --> 00:49:47,900
it seems like a very special, 
all these enjoying them, learn. 

949
00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:51,400
Exactly, who has, who has time 
for these like lunches, you 

950
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,700
know, did you write them? 
Oh God, I gotta get that gig. 

951
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,700
I gotta get whatever. 
Jig Is affording them. 

952
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:03,100
Take a lunch. 
I think, just like socialism 

953
00:50:03,100 --> 00:50:06,100
plus a declining Empire. 
I mean, we've got the declining 

954
00:50:06,100 --> 00:50:07,500
him, right? 
That's it. 

955
00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:10,000
That should be the next step for
America then is like, if we are 

956
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,200
Ready are in the point of like 
Decay as a as a nation and as a 

957
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,400
power, like why can't we just 
start enjoying ourselves? 

958
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:16,800
We'll see. 
That's the problem we're Square 

959
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,700
going. 
The, you know, excretes this G 

960
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:22,600
for scarce resources, route. 
While like five people have 

961
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:26,500
everything, it's a really, 
really tough row to hoe, right? 

962
00:50:26,500 --> 00:50:27,900
Yeah. 
It's like, let's invent like a 

963
00:50:27,908 --> 00:50:31,900
war with China and try to like 
out work there 997 or whatever 

964
00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:33,500
the fuck they call it. 
Yeah. 

965
00:50:33,500 --> 00:50:37,300
Friends were just like or we 
could just drink espresso for 7 

966
00:50:37,300 --> 00:50:38,900
hours a day. 
It's great. 

967
00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:41,400
That's why she's drink so much. 
Hot night, get some right. 

968
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,900
I actually the one aspect of 
that, you know, the bad 

969
00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:47,400
restaurant review, that 
resonated with me was the fact 

970
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,000
that they left Hungary at the 
end, they're just like it 

971
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,800
didn't, it wasn't even filling. 
And actually, that's kind of a 

972
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,700
perk because any time, I've gone
to those, like, multi-course 

973
00:50:56,700 --> 00:51:00,300
restaurants, you eat so much, 
and it's too many different 

974
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:03,700
foods in your stomach, I always 
gross, it's gross. 

975
00:51:03,700 --> 00:51:06,700
I always feel terrible that's 
why the fanciest place you 

976
00:51:06,700 --> 00:51:10,200
should go is the place where you
can spend as much as you. 

977
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,000
You need to have a buffet a good
time, right, right. 

978
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:15,800
Just go back for seconds. 
Like, it's your fault. 

979
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,900
If you're still hungry. 
Exactly. 

980
00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:20,700
There was a place in La when I 
lived, there were rows. 

981
00:51:20,700 --> 00:51:23,300
And I went to that when we 
ordered dessert, it was like a 

982
00:51:23,300 --> 00:51:24,700
cake or something. 
Could slice a cake? 

983
00:51:24,700 --> 00:51:27,800
And it was just crumbs, it was 
just like crumbs of various 

984
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,500
sizes on the plate and the 
waiter brought it out and Rosen.

985
00:51:30,500 --> 00:51:33,500
I just started laughing. 
It's like if you eat this and we

986
00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:36,200
looked at the waiter looked at 
it and he kind of shrugged and 

987
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,500
we're just like and what are you
gonna do? 

988
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,400
Like I don't think. 
The intention like I'm pretty 

989
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,400
sure the chef just brought the 
cake and then just try to like, 

990
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,100
Cobble it together back on the 
plate. 

991
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,600
If I ran across, I mean, that's 
very New York. 

992
00:51:48,700 --> 00:51:51,800
You guys probably know. 
Yeah, we've been playing. 

993
00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:55,600
That was a restaurant where the 
portions I thought were we ate 

994
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,800
way too much. 
We ordered like it was like one 

995
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,600
of those small plates things we 
were literally destroyed. 

996
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,000
Yeah it was so rich. 
So weird thing about that place 

997
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,100
is that because it was one of 
the only like one of three 

998
00:52:08,100 --> 00:52:12,900
places people went to in Miami. 
I like her and about it so much.

999
00:52:12,900 --> 00:52:16,500
And then I just conflated the 
New York restaurant with like 

1000
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:19,000
this weird Miami Outpost and 
like this culture. 

1001
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,000
Just like I just I so I have 
this weird vibe bad feeling 

1002
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,600
about it but the food is good. 
Yeah, well, there's a whole 

1003
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,200
genre of tick talker. 
Who tells you what places are in

1004
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,000
in New York. 
And I do finally, I'm obsessed 

1005
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,000
with. 
I sort of got brainwashed by, 

1006
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,000
like the Carbone takes until 
you're both on. 

1007
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,000
Take, Eric, I thought you were 
getting up. 

1008
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,100
I deleted it. 
Literally, I deleted it. 

1009
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,200
Of the week up until today. 
I was like, I'm bored. 

1010
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,500
Like what am I doing? 
I just published like I'm 

1011
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:47,500
allowed to be on Tick-Tock like 
what else? 

1012
00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:49,500
Will I text people but Tick Tock
videos. 

1013
00:52:49,500 --> 00:52:51,100
Like it's not like I talk to 
anyone anymore. 

1014
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,000
Here's a link, that's it. 
Well you're both lost. 

1015
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:55,600
Then the used to spend our 
chance. 

1016
00:52:55,900 --> 00:52:57,900
It's already done. 
I made a clean break. 

1017
00:52:57,900 --> 00:52:59,800
All right, let's talk one more 
thing of substance. 

1018
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:00,800
What do you want? 
Oh yeah. 

1019
00:53:00,900 --> 00:53:04,800
Okay, I don't you want to talk 
about Facebook? 

1020
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,000
I don't even know people like 
it. 

1021
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,300
I mean now I do worry that it 
There's a lot of little people 

1022
00:53:11,300 --> 00:53:13,000
are tired of now. 
It's like, it looks like we got 

1023
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,500
Facebook. 
Like, people don't. 

1024
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:17,900
Yeah, no, that's okay though. 
I did there was a story of the 

1025
00:53:17,900 --> 00:53:20,100
Erickson over that I'd very 
dutifully red. 

1026
00:53:20,100 --> 00:53:23,300
Hold on the one with the better 
CEO my wife CPS oh yeah well 

1027
00:53:23,300 --> 00:53:27,300
that was just like hmm may not a
huge surprise just sort of your 

1028
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:31,600
basic shitty corporate Behavior 
but this whole thing about 

1029
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:36,400
Carolyn ever seen leaving so 
soon I didn't I was really Tom's

1030
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,200
like I can talk about what I can
talk about. 

1031
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,300
It's fine. 
Like, I didn't, I mean, I guess,

1032
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,600
of course, Tom that is one of 
your companies, but I just 

1033
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,600
thought it was interesting 
because she had had such an 

1034
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,200
amazing career at Facebook. 
She responds to Sheryl Sandberg 

1035
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,500
Lieutenant, right? 
And then she got passed over for

1036
00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:55,300
Marnie, right? 
But she was not in the Cheryl 

1037
00:53:55,300 --> 00:53:57,300
crew, she wasn't this. 
Yeah. 

1038
00:53:57,300 --> 00:53:59,500
And this is something I don't 
quite understand about, like 

1039
00:53:59,700 --> 00:54:05,500
being powerful and like super 
wealthy is that when you get 

1040
00:54:05,500 --> 00:54:09,000
passed over for a job, but you 
still have the really powerful 

1041
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,000
job, you had that Made you 
wealthy, we're lost before 

1042
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,300
respect you. 
You're so irritated that you get

1043
00:54:14,300 --> 00:54:15,800
passed over that. 
You just throw up your hands and

1044
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:17,500
walk away. 
That is something I don't 

1045
00:54:17,500 --> 00:54:21,100
understand because I guess I've 
never been powerful enough to be

1046
00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:23,900
like, you know what, then screw 
you. 

1047
00:54:23,900 --> 00:54:27,600
I'm, I do not accept this 
extremely powerful position. 

1048
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:28,900
I already. 
Right. 

1049
00:54:28,900 --> 00:54:30,500
That's a bit of continued having
well. 

1050
00:54:30,500 --> 00:54:33,400
It's just like, I don't think 
that's how you say screw you in 

1051
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,600
the Sheryl Sandberg world. 
I'm sure it's like, you say, 

1052
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,700
fuck off your eyes are so, you 
know, totally blank and you're 

1053
00:54:39,700 --> 00:54:43,900
like I'm so grateful for the 
time I've had working and I'm so

1054
00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:48,200
sorry that I need to leave to do
nothing specific yet. 

1055
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,900
You know, like write it, you 
know, it's who's Afraid of 

1056
00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:57,000
Virginia Woolf, but that Harvard
knows that it like a lady sewing

1057
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,600
Circle. 
But um, I just, you know, she 

1058
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,200
goes into car as unclear. 
What she's going to do, you see 

1059
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,400
that she's overseeing marketing 
messaging? 

1060
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,000
You know all Washington legally 
related things. 

1061
00:55:10,100 --> 00:55:12,800
Like, kind of, she should ever 
saying anything that touches any

1062
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:14,900
human being outside of 
instacart. 

1063
00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:17,600
And then she was like, you know 
what, this is not for me. 

1064
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,600
And I'm going on three months in
like, what happened and she was,

1065
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,100
she was friendly with Fiji to. 
It wasn't like they were, you 

1066
00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:26,100
know, like oh, I didn't realize 
what I was getting into. 

1067
00:55:26,100 --> 00:55:28,300
Like, they worked closely 
together because Fiji was one of

1068
00:55:28,308 --> 00:55:30,400
the top at, you know, digital 
not top. 

1069
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,700
But she was definitely involved 
in the digital ads world within 

1070
00:55:32,700 --> 00:55:34,800
Facebook. 
So this wasn't like, you know, 

1071
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,700
an odd couple that was yoked 
together through requirements 

1072
00:55:38,700 --> 00:55:40,700
and you know, obligation to get 
It's in there. 

1073
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,200
I mean, to me, what's 
interesting now without tipping 

1074
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:48,300
my hand too much about the topic
is like, for the longest time, 

1075
00:55:48,300 --> 00:55:51,400
the instacart instability which 
has been going on for years now,

1076
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,400
they just churn through 
Executives over there, they were

1077
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,800
able to chalk that up to the 
founder. 

1078
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:01,000
A port of a meta who was just 
kind of a Maniac running that 

1079
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,100
company just nobody could get 
along with him. 

1080
00:56:03,100 --> 00:56:05,400
He didn't know how to be clear 
with his directives. 

1081
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,200
I wrote a piece about it a 
couple months ago that they just

1082
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,600
couldn't keep product people, 
like anyone who He sort of had 

1083
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,200
any product sense were like, 
this guy's unworkable. 

1084
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,900
He has no vision and he's not 
the CEO anymore like they pushed

1085
00:56:16,900 --> 00:56:20,600
him out of that roll to the side
and yet the instability 

1086
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,300
continues. 
Well, it's very hard to unlearn 

1087
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:25,500
companies become like their 
Founders. 

1088
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,500
And I mean, watching The Uber 
thing, I mean people just rise 

1089
00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:32,200
to the top because they have the
traits valued by the founders. 

1090
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:37,000
So I do think it's in defense of
the new CEO you know the culture

1091
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:42,300
doesn't change overnight but But
this one is persistence in URLs 

1092
00:56:42,300 --> 00:56:44,500
and a cute is leaving. 
You know, it's like oh the 

1093
00:56:44,500 --> 00:56:46,200
people that were part of the old
regime year. 

1094
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,800
I'm not going to make it but 
someone that you like one of 

1095
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,700
your first orders of business 
was like, let me bring in like 

1096
00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:56,800
my solid ads you nobody to run 
things, it's not a, not a good 

1097
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:58,800
sign about the company in any 
way. 

1098
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,400
And so I mean I basically had 
its moment in the pandemic and 

1099
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:07,900
whatever if it couldn't grab 
land then and IPO then that was 

1100
00:57:07,900 --> 00:57:10,000
such like a good moment. 
Well that's the other thing. 

1101
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,800
Thing to, I think a lot of 
people that went to instacart, 

1102
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,900
on the way up or like, I'm going
to be rich because my options 

1103
00:57:16,900 --> 00:57:19,700
are going to be so valuable and 
we know that they're not going 

1104
00:57:19,700 --> 00:57:23,100
to IPO next year. 
They were supposed to IPO this 

1105
00:57:23,100 --> 00:57:24,600
year. 
They're not going to do it next 

1106
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,500
year. 
Who knows if 2023 is on the 

1107
00:57:26,500 --> 00:57:29,400
table and so if you're Carolyn 
you're not loving things over 

1108
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,400
there and you're not sure about,
you know, how stable your jobs 

1109
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,900
going to be and you're not even 
able to cash out your shares and

1110
00:57:35,900 --> 00:57:37,500
who knows how valuable they'll 
be anyway. 

1111
00:57:37,900 --> 00:57:39,900
You know, like if it's occurred,
has to raise another round. 

1112
00:57:40,100 --> 00:57:42,100
And it's a Down Round, like 
that's really bad. 

1113
00:57:42,300 --> 00:57:46,300
So I should think about this in 
the way like this is akin to 

1114
00:57:46,300 --> 00:57:49,300
Symone Sanders leaving, Kamala 
Harris office. 

1115
00:57:50,300 --> 00:57:53,900
She's like I don't want to be 
the outward face for, you know, 

1116
00:57:53,900 --> 00:57:57,500
what's clearly the implosion of 
this? 

1117
00:57:57,500 --> 00:57:58,900
Yeah, she'll he's made in a 
year. 

1118
00:57:58,900 --> 00:58:02,700
I mean to you, what is your 
Kamala if you make it here? 

1119
00:58:02,700 --> 00:58:06,900
I mean I thought so January, 
2020 is when everyone started. 

1120
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,300
It's it's December 11 months. 
Yeah. 

1121
00:58:09,700 --> 00:58:14,100
I'm not her, you know, there was
the big piece, was it CNN? 

1122
00:58:14,100 --> 00:58:19,300
That did the big reported peace 
and identity Politico has done 

1123
00:58:19,300 --> 00:58:21,600
some stuff, too. 
I thought her quotes were sort 

1124
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,400
of like, I'm not leaving because
it's terrible. 

1125
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:26,900
It wasn't like, I mean, that's 
obviously not a direct quote, 

1126
00:58:26,900 --> 00:58:28,800
but it wasn't like, it's not 
terrible. 

1127
00:58:28,900 --> 00:58:32,300
It's like, I'm not leaving 
because of the thesis of your 

1128
00:58:32,300 --> 00:58:35,200
story, right? 
Not speaking to the thesis of 

1129
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,500
your story, one way or the 
other, you know, that's what 

1130
00:58:37,500 --> 00:58:39,600
about red. 
What about bad fit does it? 

1131
00:58:39,700 --> 00:58:44,500
Make sense to you. 
What about cultural mismatch? 

1132
00:58:44,500 --> 00:58:46,600
Don't you get? 
Absolutely. 

1133
00:58:47,100 --> 00:58:49,300
Absolutely. 
Yeah, I don't really understand 

1134
00:58:49,300 --> 00:58:53,700
how I mean, I don't know enough 
about I mean, again, just a 

1135
00:58:53,707 --> 00:58:55,500
reminder. 
I don't cover politics. 

1136
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:57,300
Technically. 
The justice department is law 

1137
00:58:57,300 --> 00:59:00,400
enforcement, right? 
And clearly a political to yeah,

1138
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:05,400
fall, but But yes, I it's true. 
When I say, I don't understand 

1139
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:07,600
the inner workings of these 
offices, like Congressional 

1140
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,600
offices and like, the office of 
the president, or the vice 

1141
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,900
president, because they're kind 
of their own little fiefdoms. 

1142
00:59:13,300 --> 00:59:16,000
And so, I mean, when I see them,
I get that. 

1143
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,500
Like, I just, I get nervous 
because it's like once you go 

1144
00:59:19,500 --> 00:59:21,500
through the Looking-Glass, like 
God only knows what's going on 

1145
00:59:21,500 --> 00:59:23,700
back there. 
Well, I sort of feel bad. 

1146
00:59:23,700 --> 00:59:28,800
I was out with some somebody's 
more senior in the industry last

1147
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:33,000
night for drinks. 
And, you know this Person was 

1148
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,100
just real like you know, I could
have been this bigger role, you 

1149
00:59:36,107 --> 00:59:38,300
know. 
But I didn't get the job this 

1150
00:59:38,300 --> 00:59:41,300
person got it and I was just 
sort of like to myself. 

1151
00:59:41,300 --> 00:59:44,000
Like, I don't know that other 
person either. 

1152
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,800
Like, what would your life ever?
Really been that different if 

1153
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:48,700
you'd been? 
Like, sure, you would've been 

1154
00:59:48,700 --> 00:59:49,800
richer. 
You definitely would've been 

1155
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:53,600
richer, but it's like you're 
under another name that nobody 

1156
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,400
has heard of and life in jail 
for something better to come to 

1157
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,400
peace with like that. 
He feels like he should have 

1158
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,400
been the CEO of like this, you 
know, like it's just sort. 

1159
01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:06,000
Out of, I mean, obviously, not 
too, but Life's a chain of sort 

1160
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,000
of wanting. 
With the next person above you 

1161
01:00:09,700 --> 01:00:13,200
has everything. 
Has to be that I think no, I 

1162
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:18,200
agree. 
I mean, is it better though? 

1163
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,400
To not get the job at you? 
Thought you were that you 

1164
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,100
deserved and was part of your 
life's plan or to get the job 

1165
01:00:23,100 --> 01:00:26,300
and realize that it's like it's 
empty that it gives, you know, 

1166
01:00:26,300 --> 01:00:28,300
sort of, you know, Soul 
nourishment. 

1167
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,500
But the ROM is, you just say, oh
well the problem is, it's not 

1168
01:00:30,500 --> 01:00:32,400
the top top job, you know, it's 
right next. 

1169
01:00:32,500 --> 01:00:35,600
Winner, and if you're the 
founder, it's because my board 

1170
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,200
wouldn't let me be great and 
they stop me. 

1171
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:41,300
You know, it's there is no like,
I mean, it's sort of its like 

1172
01:00:41,300 --> 01:00:42,900
insecurities all the way down. 
Hurry up. 

1173
01:00:42,900 --> 01:00:45,400
And you know, if you're Bezos 
you can be like well they don't 

1174
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,000
think I'm an inventor. 
They think I'm the op. 

1175
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,500
You know, you can always feel so
I'm going to actually I think he

1176
01:00:50,500 --> 01:00:53,300
feels okay about himself, I 
know, I think he's okay. 

1177
01:00:53,500 --> 01:00:56,900
But I do think there's a degree 
to which, you know, even the top

1178
01:00:56,900 --> 01:01:00,100
then you just refrain yourself 
as saying, well I'm I'm pursuing

1179
01:01:00,100 --> 01:01:02,800
to be a once in a generation. 
Talent. 

1180
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,300
And then you weigh yourself 
against the base was thing is 

1181
01:01:05,300 --> 01:01:08,000
great to me because I don't 
think he feels like it through 

1182
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,700
that way, and yet still that 
insecurity that drives 

1183
01:01:10,700 --> 01:01:13,800
Executives at a different level,
clearly affected him when the 

1184
01:01:13,808 --> 01:01:16,900
Lauren Sanchez, you know, 
texting Scandal broke out 

1185
01:01:16,900 --> 01:01:20,000
because it wasn't enough that 
like her shitty brother leak the

1186
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,800
text messages like know, this 
had to be a plot led by the 

1187
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:26,700
Saudis in order to smear me 
because I had one time shafted 

1188
01:01:26,700 --> 01:01:29,900
like MBS which of course turned 
out to be complete bullshit. 

1189
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,000
But at that level it's like one 
clearly an important In person 

1190
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,100
because why else would my you 
know my love Tex get out there. 

1191
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:38,800
Absolutely. 
Whilst the Saudis only hack, 

1192
01:01:38,900 --> 01:01:41,200
very American people, right? 
That's the only way that it 

1193
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:43,300
could have gotten out there. 
There is that picture where 

1194
01:01:43,300 --> 01:01:47,900
Leonardo DiCaprio was like 
looking at her and then Bezos 

1195
01:01:47,900 --> 01:01:51,700
literally put up like some tweet
likes flexing. 

1196
01:01:51,700 --> 01:01:55,100
Like I feel like this is Nana I 
know you're talking about. 

1197
01:01:55,100 --> 01:01:58,500
Yeah I think we're going into 
part of people's psyche, that's 

1198
01:01:58,500 --> 01:02:03,300
like really dangerous. 
This is more Bezos has Petty 

1199
01:02:03,300 --> 01:02:06,200
petty foibles, like the rest of 
us or even more amazing. 

1200
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,400
Yeah. 
Anyway, instacart watch that 

1201
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:09,600
space. 
Okay. 

1202
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:27,500
Sounds good. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1203
01:02:27,500 --> 01:02:29,800
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1204
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:27,500
Sounds good. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1205
01:02:27,500 --> 01:02:29,800
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye.