Welcome back on Sally. So Tom I was reading technium.
I was reading, do, people read Tech me.
I was looking at the technique you scan through Page meme.
Yeah, do you read technium? But I like reading the internet.
Yeah, so I was scanning, take me.
And I thought that it was like, I was looking at the three Top
articles on Tech name to be introduced the episode.
Did you do like, hey, it's Katie.
Do we do that? No.
Why do we have to do that? I mean, if people listen
regularly, they know, we are mean, I don't know, let's do it,
just do it, just do it. I'm Katie.
I'm Tom, this is dead cat. Welcome.
This is an Eric newcomer list episode.
He's on vacation, it's Kitty and I holding down the fort.
Barely. Yeah barely.
It's the two Elder Statesman of the podcast and yet I feel like
we get admonished by Eric four times that we almost Our it's
just us I mean newcomer yeah so Tom is Holding On by a thread.
He needs a vacation, I'm definitely on vacation but I'm
working every day so here we are.
Yeah. And I was scanning the top of
tech meme like you do. I don't think you read it, you
just scan it. And again, notice that top three
articles one, the first number one article is about
self-driving cars. The number two is about Poober
and the number three is about a Down Round.
So I like this because It's so similar to when I was covering
Tech, I felt right Aronson. Exactly.
It's very 2017 and so I like the familiarity but clearly it seems
to me just from scanning technique the arguably, the most
important website, in fact that the text seems somewhat to be in
a rut. So Tom as somebody who's
covering this day to day, why is this happening?
It's very strange, it's very strange.
I think, first of all, we have to say, any sort of News cycle
has to be caveat it with the fact that it is.
So, it's July, it's July, no one really wants to work.
I know this on a daily basis and yet we do.
And so the sort of flow of news gets extremely weird, I think,
the analogy, I mean, this is across all, you know, all Beats.
I'll sections of the paper. But the analogy to me is always
like, remember Network TV during the summer.
Used to be just like, just weird shit.
Like, you have to seat the shows we get to their season finale,
in May, and then Like the next week it'd be like here's a weird
ass game show that ever get put on the air except during the
summer like here's a bear eating a thousand, hot dogs like
Trapper John MD oh yeah. Show that I think was made only
to be Runnin Syndicate but by and large weird shit happens
during the summer and so the news cycle gets strange and
slow. So I do want to say up front
that is definitely something to consider, but I think there's
something larger at play here. I think we are dealing with part
of the Cycle. Writ large, like the multi-year
cycle that has reached some sort of a trough, a stasis, a moment
of disillusionment and I don't know, just stuck stuck in this.
We just feel like we're like the cursor is just sort of spinning
and we don't really know if like the program is operating in the
background. We keep staring at the cursor
being like is something going to load.
Is anything is anything going to happen here?
And I think the story is that you mention and just generally
my experience on the be talking to people.
All right. Now we are in a very, very
interesting and in my opinion of the like what has it been like
eight fucking years that I've been on this beat a a kind of
unrecognizable part of the cycle and I see what's happening in
the news, it feels like, first of all, there's no Tech, it's no
longer fun and they're definitely no new ideas.
I mean, just look at these stories.
Self-driving cars, right? Boober down rounds, right?
This a is so it's not only our that is the news, the same, the
news, Is usually the news of the same, because the activities are
the same, right? And so, what's going on with
ideas in Tech and then what's going on with money?
So like no one's really having any fun and ones, creating any
new ideas. And yeah, certainly, there's
something going on with the money, the money and maybe,
maybe maybe is a good idea to take each one of these stories
from by one. I remember, I started covering
tack at the information with a mirror of Rowdy, mr.
Self-driving car, mr. Zalto, Himself.
Yeah, my favorite person that we did work uncomfortably close.
He insisted on the standing desk I had a seated desk and I'll
just say positionally. It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't
ideal for not recommended Ocho probably would have a good case
against the entire office layout of early days of other really,
is really tight. I'll put it that way but um, but
I remember when we were talking about this story is the
self-driving car. Listen 20, 2014 2015, its
self-driving car was going to be upon us. 20:22 wish I think
know. For sure if not Belgium
self-driving car was here flying car was going to be further
away, the self-driving car was Within Reach and so this is not
only an article about the self-driving car but about how
self-driving car is definitely not happening at least for
Apple. Right?
And it isn't, it's not happening for Apple.
I mean apples willing to spend more time and more money.
They will accuse better Parts. They're willing to use like more
effective but / more. More expensive technology.
It was not happy. Grapple.
I would dare posit. It's probably not happening for
others. So is this, you know what, what
is happening with this story? Definitely, the matically fits
with that. So the technium headline, we're
really giving our time are time to Tech Meme here, which Eggman
is sponsoring this episode. Yeah, thanks Gabe.
So yeah, the technium headline, is report.
Details apples eight-year. Struggle to build a self-driving
car as 20 people who worked on the project site, constant
shifting goals and more and then this is a summation.
A Relation of a story that was in the information by my former
colleague, Wayne ma who is really getting deep into all the
kind of failed initiatives inside Apple.
These days here earlier had a story about their a, our efforts
and why those have also just been completely uninspiring and
shitty. So yeah, the story basically is
explaining over the years, why they are one of the many
companies that have spent billions and billions of dollars
on this thing, but just won't do anything.
Being close to what it needs to do, in order for it to be ready
for you, or me to take it. And I think this is like a
perfect explanation encapsulation of where Tech is
with its most ambitious and interesting products right now,
right? Look, there's no question of
self-driving car would actually be transformative, right?
I mean, that's actually, first of all, four companies like
uber, it would give them like a real business model because they
would, they would like, crap, you know, transformative Okay.
Can you do well I'll think about transformative.
Maybe like patchily, transformative, transformative
for some open you. I'm willing to debate that point
but at least we got a pretty cool.
The idea of like a robot car that would drive around and not
kill people, which seems call you problem for at least a.
And then the Apple car is detailed in the story to have
almost hit a jogger but before a human stopped it from doing
that, you know, it's just, it's just not there.
I just see them at this stage now where they need something
new in Her to consider themselves an Innovative
technology company they can probably.
I mean you covered Apple Katie's you maybe have some I don't know
Distant Memories of this but they could probably like lean on
the profits of making everyone buy a new iPhone every 18 months
for a while. Yeah, I mean, they're kind of
becoming a software company. You have to pay them every month
for your data space, you have to pay them every month for your
iTunes, or for your Apple music, or for your Apple TV.
They're running a subscription software company and I think
that's where they're going to get a lot of their growth.
But to your point they would like to have a new product.
This is not necessarily an iPhone and I wonder at what
point they kill the car, you know, that they're just like,
what's on this idea? This is a dry.
Well, we are, we are, we are pumping a dry well and it would
be. Yeah, I know I just like they
probably will at some point, right?
There's no way that this thing is going to be Street ready for
regular people in the next decade or so I just don't and
there is always this argument that it will.
Inevitably happen, it must happen.
And first of all, I don't know that it must happen.
Like I think that people human beings can drive cars and they
do it pretty well. And the other issue is that when
robots drive the cars humans or much warier about the statistics
around accidents. So right now obviously there's
human error and their car accidents Galore because of
human error and we've kind of accepted that but I think that
we that there's something about the robots taking over.
We don't want there to be accidents where much Forgiving
about that, margin of it. Oh yeah, yeah, because the
number of people that get hit by humans is unlike unacceptable,
really good through the roof right now, like in Washington
DC, it's pretty pretty, pretty terrible.
Statistically, it's gone up. Thank you pandemic.
But at the same time, you know, is it really?
An inevitability? Do we need to have self-driving
cars? Is that something that must
happen? Even if I buy the argument that
it will, by the time happens? What else will be going on in
the world? What other new technology will
have happened? That makes it just feel a little
bit less exciting if and that's a very optimistic case too.
Because it says that there could be really new big, fresh ideas
and Tech. And I don't really see those
happening so much and again, like business model wise for a
company like uber, which spends, you know, 80% of every fair or
so on paying, you know, drivers fucking human beings that Carry
out the tasks and work, the, you know, the robo taxi idea is very
interesting to them. Like, for them, it is kind of
existential debatably existential for Apple.
It's not right? It's just a thing.
It's just like well we need to be at the Forefront of what we
think. Go, new technology is so I guess
we have this money that we should spend on cars.
What is the new technology? That's the, that's the other
question. Like what are we?
What are we lacking right now? The technology is going to help
us with. I'm not saying that doesn't
exist. I can think of numerous things
in medicine. Sun' alone.
But it seems like BC money over the last few years was really
pouring into. How does somebody put this to me
the other day? Maybe it was you Tom things that
make life marginally better for people with a lot of money.
Oh, I think that was me. Yeah, yeah, Bruno Kirby.
And When Harry Met Sally, I was waiting to hear if it's out of
those parts where I took credit for it.
I wrote that line, it pleases me.
Yeah. But I think AR is a better
example. Of something that Apple really,
really wants to have happen because that, you know, that
does sound like a new platform G.
That is like, a new way to experience the world, which is
what Apple's always trying to claim their Tech can do, right?
And I think it sucks. I think everything that these
companies have been investing in for the time being right now.
It's really shitty. It's nowhere.
Close to the promise and actually this this information
story. I thought had a great line in
it. I hadn't heard before but they
were because they what they've managed to do.
What? Apple has managed to do is train
some of their self driving cars to perform really well in closed
circuits that can go on fixed routes.
So it's not right dealing with, like, real-time human activity.
But you can kind of get it on a course to do stuff, which is
what you need in a self-driving car.
Yell time human activity. Yeah.
And and the term he used was demo where?
Yes, yes. I said.
I love that. Yeah.
And that's, that's what it is, right?
I mean, and that's what they are is and I, you know, I've bitched
about this constantly on the show that like, these companies.
Really good at getting groups of reporters to go down to their
offices and give them demos of these products.
That at the time, they right, where the glowing reviews about
and then nothing ever comes of it because it can't do anything
outside of the presentation that they gave to credulous reporters
in the moment that they gave it to them.
I think also, the problem is, is that, you know, you could argue
that a lot of the technology especially around on demand and
other, you know, especially right on demand, like, uber are
things that made life better. It made you feel like you
enjoyed existing in the world more.
You could even say that if some social media you went out to go
on Hikes and to go to weddings you could share these pictures,
etc, etc. But it's I think it's hard to
make the argument that for most people, particularly those with
a disposable income that technology companies want to
Target that living in a are is better than living in real life,
right? And so, even if it was the most
amazing, a our upper, if all it did was make you feel like you
were doing the thing you could do, if you walk out your door
and people are like, oh but you could go to the loo.
When you could never do that in real life, I'm sorry about the
audience of people that companies actually want to
Target, who have disposable income.
They probably could get to an art museum, right?
So if they really wanted to, and I probably would enjoy it a
little bit more in person because then you can go to the
cafeteria after and get an ice cream and talk about thing.
You just saw and I and I think that that is one of the big
problems that they are. It's just not going to make it
even if it is. So so good.
It won't be better than real life.
And so it feels like yes, a new platform but Bit of a waste of
time, right? Right.
I thought you actually was, yeah, let me quote, you back to
UK it earlier episode owning a sick show ya, what are you gonna
do? Who would have thought that
Eric's? Not here, it gets even more
self-congratulatory. So I think you were talking
about how, like, you know, the people that are spending
millions and billions of dollars creating the metaverse, which,
by the way, that's not a thing. We've talked about, in a couple
months, I don't have another metaverse now.
It's really pitch in the butter verse, not a Of a tech meme.
I think, you know, these are rich people that are spending
their money going on ski trips in.
You know, what I can tell is skiing.
Yeah, look out there in Vail, they're in the Alps, or what's
left of the snow in the Alps. I mean, they're not spending
time in the metaverse pretending that it's fun to like virtually
enjoy a concert. They're getting like backstage
passes to the concert. Yeah.
And so there is definitely a mismatch between what, you know,
the people at the top of the business World.
Think the rest of us losers will enjoy.
Oi and what they're doing and what they claim is going to be
the future. When, in fact, it's not a future
that they seem all that particularly interested in
participating and whatsoever. So then the other one on the
list you want to move on down to, I think we have to address
this like uber story thing. Yeah, over files.
I don't think. I really don't want to belabor
it for a variety of reasons, including the fact that I don't
have time to read the entirety of it.
You have it all under 25,000 doctor but I did, I did notice
that a lot of the Things that I'm seeing these stories.
I feel like I've somewhat read right before, right?
And that the that no, no. I mean, you can argue that some
of these things have been reported before and they're not
necessarily knew you could argue that doesn't matter because
having the documents to stand them up as important, putting
that debate aside. What you're looking at is a
company that was growing really fast and was really interesting
several years ago and you're looking at the things that
happened when it was growing really fast was really Ting.
Several years ago, which says, to me that like, uber is not
really as interesting today and that sort of that cohort of
companies, it makes me wonder, are they have they all kind of
topped out and nothing is really replacing.
If what we're doing is reading about, you know, the sort of
mascot of the era of Mac. But just, you know, what was
happening? Five years ago, right?
Right. It's like it as the new cycle is
slow and both because of the season.
Just like where we are and like the broader Tech cycle.
It's like they're the universe is trying to like pull out
Greatest Hits from the time where Tech was more interesting.
So it's like, all right self-driving is this anything
for you? Ok.
No. OK, how about Uber Scandal?
There's a candle is so hot in 2017.
It's like, oh, is there a new Uber Scandal?
No. Yeah.
It's the old Libra scandals. You're like, oh yeah, you be the
stories that every news Outlet was writing about endlessly in
2017 there like Like yeah, it's those like even the same cast of
characters. Yeah it's like what you know
what is Travis doing these days? Well he's gotta you know it's
really not a PR person and defending himself it's like,
okay. Because remember that terrifying
with the law. So let's go back to when he
wasn't, that was pretty cool. Yeah.
I will say, I don't want to spend too much time on Uber
specifically because we are going to have an episode about
it. And several weeks and newcomer,
whatever we do Eric is going to be really upset.
Yeah, yeah, he did allow us to talk about it, but I think we're
going to Only a limited fashion. Yeah.
So without going into too many of the specifics of it, I will
say again, I think it's funny that these stories do not seem
like they have caught the World by storm.
I mean, I don't know, I mean like, they've been in all these
newsletters there at the top of tech beam.
Like, I don't know what catching the World by storm.
It's hard, it's hard. If you do such extreme things.
Now bring a sack a major government building.
Gonna do a lot of things. It's really cat.
Yeah, it's like capturing people's attentions for
difficulties. Yeah, yeah yeah.
And you know I'm like I see right now, as we record this
like on the Washington Post, it's the front of this.
You know, it's the top of the top news story, they have that
they really blew it out. There's any one of the news
outlets that worked with the international Consortium of
investigative journalists to analyze the documents.
And, you know, they're trying to make a big thing out of it.
And they've had a couple of interesting stories or does it.
The leakers already? Come forward and stories, like,
not even a day old. Like, what don't don't?
Don't whistleblowers want, Mystique.
Or what happened. I thought that the cycle the way
it works, like the rollout work, is that you do the big, couple
of stories and you get everyone. So Juiced about your like, who
is this person? It's just guy.
Who is this, you know? And then on the last day, it's
like the big reveal and it's like, oh, it's someone that we
don't know, but maybe maybe famous know.
Yay. They really speeding up the
cycle. It seems like things are going a
little too fast, right? Just kind of a tech him in a
baby. That's a tech information.
Yeah, what if we reveal the leaker on day one and then
everyone move Saint addict. I don't know, I don't know what
the strategy is there. It seems like it would stick to
me. We really don't want to draw
this out anymore. We really want people to digest
this as soon as possible. Take out all the mystery so they
can move on with their lives by Tuesday, so it's Mark McGann.
Yeah, barking again, everyone. We are getting closer by the way
to. I don't know if you've just
discuss this on this show, but like we've collected quite a few
whistleblowers over the last few years that I would watch that
reality show of like whistleblower house where we
just kind of like the World, the original MTV's, Real World, we
put them on an apartment together in New York City.
We got a West Village townhouse and they start to get real.
I don't think it could be in New York because of Snowden so we'd
have to do it in Russia. That's really cold Mountain cow
real world Moscow. But yeah, you get you get
Snowden and you get Francis heylighen, you get Mark began.
I think the other like, I don't think that's I mean maybe maybe
Snowden and Manning or just from a Different era, maybe it's
really just McGann. I'm not to be moved on again.
Mark me, guess not your McGann. Francis how again and they can
just be on an island together. Somewhere talking crypto, have a
baby that we pair it with survivor of the ACT actually
hunt their own on thrown him down their own meals.
Hmm. Create potable water.
Yeah, or like I wonder if they end up just blowing whistle on
each other the whole time and let people in.
I mean, the producers of like all my misdeeds at the others
are doing well, sometimes our reality TV is, right, there's no
special to draw movie extreme. He's so good at it.
Yeah. Hey, Buffy survivors for sure.
I worry people are going to take the wrong message for this that
we do not value whistleblowers as report we absolutely value.
We do I I genuinely think that they are heroes.
I do this is more of a conversation about like whistle
blowing and fame I think and if you want to really be the most
famous whistleblower, you have to combine it with the popcorn.
Culture phenomenon, that is created more Fame for more
everyday people, which is reality television, right?
I mean dick, one of these people could become president if
they're on reality TV. What is this?
Is like, you're like, you're like a powerful medium, right?
Yeah, I think we've talked on the show about how
whistleblowers are and, I mean, again, I don't mean to be
cynical about it. Is another version of being an
influencer, right? Especially when you're going
forward, I made me very uncomfortable.
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I yeah, I get I feel
kind of That is were making fun of these people from a celebrity
perspective. I do think their access is
incredibly heroic not making fun of them.
We are making fun of the circle of life that has been created
around the active whistle blowing.
Yeah, did not examine the life that exists Beyond just the
story, right? That, this is really kind of
like, isn't it really sort of somewhat of like a 20/20 18
post, 2018 phenomenon? You know I mean it was like up
until up until that Ukraine will sell blower phenomenon.
I don't think people like Blowing, the whistle then jumped
in front of the camera, like, I think that's different, right?
Well, I mean Snowden is the obvious one.
Yeah, she's right. I mean, he and then that was the
documentary. Yeah, that was a big reveal and
he'd work closely with, you know, Greenwald and Laura
poitras. My favorite part of the
documentary is when he's hiding under the blankets on this
computer. Uh-huh.
As I say, that was an incredibly claustrophobic documentary, just
imagine all the time that they spent in that hotel room
together, knowing that if they ever went downstairs, it could
be a A nightmare. I'm still like slightly anxious
thinking about all of those cameras and Snowden just sitting
in that room together, like waiting for the story to go up,
there's a great documentary, that was really in some ways
like the high Watermark of so many things.
But, without naming names of many, many people, well, no, I
don't even think about that. The people involved just, like
sort of the high Watermark of like, people trusting
journalist, right? People failing like You know be
crew feels like that. Led to change like to change in
government you know feeling of accountability.
You think also the revelations themselves eroded people's trust
in government to a point that it just felt like any sort of
repair of the system was beyond the scope of tickets.
An interesting question thought of it.
That way, you know, because I feel we were just at this moment
of Maximum like, give us your data, everyone wants to share
data, and I've always thought of it as Snowden like you know.
So his and the information you shared having sort of this dual
consequent until set of consequences.
One being okay. There's something wrong with
government that needs to be addressed.
But the other being a woman, by the way, do you as a consumer
just want to like throw your data out, willy-nilly liked it,
should there be some seat belt on that?
And I think it sort of put the brakes on, tech companies that
were really pushing this idea. That's very Mark, Zuckerberg
idea that human beings would soon like not really want
privacy or care about At all ever ever again.
And so I felt like I've always thought about it through that
lens. I've never really thought about.
It was a sort of like the postmodern project destroying
faith and institution. I don't think it'll be enough
maybe, but maybe yeah. But maybe that was just sort of,
like, one of the one of the knock-on effects, right?
And I mean, like when you're pulling back the screen that
much and you really see how rotting the system that your
whistle blowing on has become, you kind of Wonder, I mean, I
think they They come at it from a good place which is like this
can be repaired and like, you know, Francis Hogan's her
perspective. Supposedly was that she's like
so long like Facebook can be fixed.
If we get rid of Mark Zuckerberg and he's the problem here and
right, you know, whatever that is what it is.
But I you know, I think as these people are coming forward and
leaking the documents they think like they're improving the place
that they worked at or the country they live in or
something like that. And it just seems like the
effect is mostly been people read the stories.
They're right Leo. If I'd buy it and they're like,
man, it seems like everything fucking sucks.
It sounds like everything's broken, isn't it bad enough?
That just the Zeitgeist, right? How much, how much can really be
done about that, right? And that's so, like, so the Uber
thing maybe to finish that up, like that's kind of, especially
when you're leaking documents about a period that is long past
for a company who is at a kind of weak point as a business, you
know, like they're not really at a position of strength and we
knew a lot of the Galatians. It's really hard to know what to
make of any of these things. It's like company that many
people had already decided, was bad.
Is still bad. Or was bad.
Was what that, right? Well, that's yeah.
Anyway, we should save the Deep. Yeah, we're heading to deep into
newcomer territory. We gotta move on to down rounds,
which also I mean that's a very newcomer adjacent tooth will
have to tread carefully but I don't mind I don't mind.
So yeah, that's the other thing on there.
His decision to make ticket variation beats you down with a
wire hanger. I'm just gonna say I told you so
cause of death talking about genres, so fucking sad magic.
Yeah. You're talking about karna, the
fintech companies pay me in, but please, no Clara.
De carne is just a placeholder for any company but can judge Ya
Down rounds, are you know, it's definitely.
No one's heard of karna. You know, people in.
Where is it? Sweden.
I think it was like one Sweden's.
Or Europe's Most Valuable privately, I think just fin tech
company, fin tech company. You know, they raise 100
million. It's a Down Round, major major
down round. They were at 46 billion June 20
21 now down to six point seven billion.
I mean, that should pretty sure. Yeah, that's crazy.
That's a good one. That's a good one.
As like, shocking down rounds, go, I'm going to put them up in
in a top-ten single cell, but maybe lost some money on that.
Dollar the employees. Don't worry.
Yeah. Right.
No one important as far as the investors are concerned.
But yeah, I don't know. I mean Sequoia which is like the
Doomsday prophecies are of the valley put out a presentation, a
couple months ago. Basically saying, you know, get
ready for the bad times. Again, they love doing that.
They're famous for the rmp, good times, presentation of the times
got really good. So maybe it was our IP good
time. Because we're going to go into
great times, right? Exactly yeah, I didn't dot dot
dot. They don't read the whole way
through the presentation. You guys all get sad slide
right? We're about to completely fuck
up the San Francisco real estate market descriptive.
Rooms going to be pretty good. Yeah.
And then you're going to buy a house in Portugal.
Yeah, right. All right be good times the
great times as we're going to have a Trader Joe's on Market
Street. Say goodbye to the good times.
Yeah, they are. There are so ripped the think
it's good times, but I mean like it's a reality from covering the
space, you know, every company has been given that very firm
directive that they have to make money, which is sad and sad.
Think about that. The initial directive is not to
make money. It's to grow different thing,
right? So there's always a surprise.
I think to the company's when somebody from outside says, okay
we take it back. Yeah, just make money.
Yeah. And I think maybe that more than
anything is what has caused people to, you know, if there is
like a lassitude or like moroseness about the tech World
these days, I do think like that, the business models have
to become rational is really fucking depressing because
making money isn't fun. People have been doing that for
hundreds of years and they never seem to have fun doing it.
Yeah. So this is where I like the
dearth of Joy, the dearth of ideas and the dearth of money.
All kind of come together in one neat package.
Yeah, And we don't know, like, we talked about that with Rick
heitzman a couple months back, like, you know, for the VC
perspective, they're having, you know, that they've got to tell
their companies. Some of you are going to die and
we're not going to save you. And that's not very fun.
That doesn't sound like a moon shot.
No. But it's also like I think the
reason why we're not getting the sort of big downturn that
Sequoia had predicted and and was warning people about is also
the reality that none of these companies not none that still
very few of these companies. Even from like the 2015, 2016
boom have gone public. And so as long as they're all
privately, held the good times end when the private investors
won't play ball anymore. And since every company goes out
to the market, to raise money at different times.
And they do it, privately and quietly, and hopefully secretly.
You don't kind of see that money rush out like it did in the late
90s, where public shareholders were like weird.
Being you and we're putting all of our money into bonds or
whatever. And so it creates this like huge
public dramatic Rush of funding out of the industry.
That looks really terrible. Instead, you just see it in
these dribs and drabs on a semi consistent basis, but it doesn't
have the same kind of like, terrifying umph.
So you can still if you want. I mean you can still delude
yourself and say, like the good times are here and I'm going to
gamble with them. You could say argue that.
That's somewhat. What the crypto.
Boom was the post. R.i.p.
Good. Times presentation crypto.
But you could argue that, maybe that's what it was.
But yes. So also, I think that things
like these down rounds are kind of symbolic of the fact that
these companies did not go public and probably that's a
good thing. Yeah, really great.
Right liability. Yeah and probably best not to be
public in tank. The economy writ large.
Yeah I mean when I said that big that big lake collapse that
we're all looking for. I don't think we're actually
very good. Big collapse that were bracing
for, I think would be more accurate, which, which may be to
say, way to like the last thing that explains this era and the
thing that I am so amazed and amused by that you have followed
almost not at all in the really tridents that really tried to
avoid up his elom. It's my I'm supposed to be on
vacation, I'm working every day. So this is how I am getting a
vacation in Tha just by not reading about really cool shit.
Yeah, avoiding Eli. On it.
Just just that has like really it's the I live in a condo in
the world. Do you want me to explain to you
what happened? Last please do please do so on
Friday. The hammer finally fell.
Well actually no. Let me let me back up a little
bit on Thursday, the Washington Post.
Ran a story saying that Elon was no longer engaging with his
financial advisors or something involved at the deal.
And the deal was in Jeopardy and he was bringing up the fact that
he wasn't getting. This is the story wasn't getting
all the data that he felt he needed to prove.
Twitter doesn't have a bot, which is such a great argument
because it's like, it's like if I said to you Tom I want data on
your secret second child and you're like, but I don't have a
secret second child and I was like Tom, we're not doing this
deal until I get data on your secret.
Second child and your secret second wife like but I don't
have a secret second wife. Well, this deals over.
All right. That's the beauty of this, you
know, I love it so much. It goes so many layer.
I get you don't want to read about it.
It. But, but it goes so many layers,
deep. Because if you can recall at the
origins of the deal, one of elon's promises and becoming the
owner of Twitter is that he was going to fix the bot problem.
Absolutely. And so, he's basically just been
looking for an out when it was clear, that he overpaid for a
company as the market collapsed and Tesla stock collapsed.
And I'm assuming he was close to getting margin called on the
loans that he was taking out against his Tesla shares.
So it was looking like a worse and worse.
Deal. Everyone was kind of I don't
know wondering how he was going to, How You Gonna wriggle out of
this one and then on Friday. Yeah, there's pretty simple.
I bet that's what I do. I'm the, I'm the rig a lot of
things that guy. You used to think of me as the
Innovation guy but now I'm just the wriggle out of shit guy,
which is also very cool. We're out of ideas, the out of
money, we will get to that, we will get to that.
Okay, that is very true. I think that is a perfect
encapsulation of our, maybe our country at this point but so I
day, he files a letter with her. His lawyers fires a letter with
the SEC saying deal's off. I no longer want to be the
Twitter owner because because of the Bots is the Bots that are
the problem. I really want to make a t-shirt
that says, I no longer want to be the Twitter owner.
Yeah. If you would do it, he would
wear it. Because it's just, I mean,
that's all of us, kind of, right?
Yeah. Well, I don't want to be the
Twitter user, but I'm required to be.
Did you read the story about the reporter that says they don't
read the news anymore? Oh, it's funny enough.
I haven't read that either. So Ilan said, will reload vacuum
that made me really happy. Continue sir.
Okay, so Elon says he's backing out of the deal a couple hours
later. Bret Taylor, who is the chairman
of Twitter tweets out. We at Twitter, think you are
full of shit, and we will sue you to make sure that the deal
goes through all the way citing, there's this one is able to
specific performance clause in the contract, which basically
means that they can see you in Chancery Court along as a sink.
Example of the coarsening of the discourse of don't like it
continued. Yeah, no.
You don't want Chairman's. Talking about Chancery things.
Are things are in a bad place as a company when you're having to
like call Mom at the Chancery Court to fix things for you.
So anyway so then Elon he thinks he's got a real Ace in the Hole
because of this Bots thing. Twitter is going to take him to
court. They've lawyer dup.
Ilan has got Skadden Arps on his side and Twitter is got I don't
remember some other, you know, lock tell Lipton.
I think it's real battle of the white-shoe law firms, right?
But I guess the question throughout all of this is this
really Over long tired episode just keeps dragging on.
Is that why are we? And I guess I could talk about
this episode, this episode? No continue.
Sorry. Yeah.
Why are we why do we care about this?
Well, whatever it is like, I as an as an emblem, there's nothing
better than Twitter. It was this, their Twitter was
supposed to World. Peace, was going to flow from at
peace in the Middle East specifically.
I think there's quite a democracy in China To they
constantly being there is going to be payback for the lunatics
who murdered you know who murdered half the staff of
Charlie hebdo' Twitter was this huge phenomenon.
It was a part was going to be part of the state department was
like it was just so this was like the most high flying part
of the of the tech boom. And like the social media, boom
was in so many ways to Twitter and now it's like nobody wants
to own it. Not even ship company.
Not even this. Don't want stick?
No, no, no wants to. I run it, nobody wants to run
it, people are going to go to court over who, who has to have
it? Yeah.
Ring, right. We're going to fight you to not
have this yet. It's the most depressing, like
family court trial of all time. And then you have Elon Musk, you
should probably be like a divorce settlement.
We're like Eli. Do you like better?
That's the end of my family feud.
No, no, no. It should be like a divorce
court. They like Elon owns twittering
on like weekends and like, every third week of the month
Wednesday, it is. Yeah, holidays.
It gets like a month. Immuno a month, a year and like
one of iman's compounds and then like, you know, Twitter's
boredoms at the rest of the time and likely, nah, finds a new
husband Twitter, hates being with Ilana.
On holidays because it's to fight for attention with all of
us actual children. Just like that through an
increasingly crowded and unfriendly household, tell.
But but other, what else is beautiful?
Use of Twitter was drizzles defining, social media, darling
of the of the big Tech era, no options left and then you have
Ilan who was supposed to be the big Genius of the industry.
He was Tony Stark, he was the cool one, he was the person who
was just a font of ideas, he's got nothin, except for except
for box. Exactly.
Robots. Grunts it right?
That's all you got. Yeah.
This it's it is it is really depressing if you think about
it, because I do think, like, a nation's lonely eyes turned up
toward Ilan as like The Innovation Factory.
You know, like he did the Rockets thing, which I always
thought was like 80% overrated, but at least it's a thing, you
know, Nick, those are pretty cool rocket.
Sounds like, and the electric cars.
Yeah. Debatable as to like, its
overall environmental impact. But yes, it's new.
That's the new thing. Yeah.
Yeah I don't know. It all started to feel very
rickety to me in terms of what he actually had in store when he
was raising the financing for it.
And the New York Times and a bunch of other outlets reported
like what he was promising for Twitter and it was so realistic.
It is like a billion users in three years and in billions in
profits and just all the stuff that he had no actual plan for
really other than, like, putting Trump back on Twitter and like,
you know, I don't know allowing every girl an image ever to you
know I mean he had he had not thought it through and we've
already let the beheadings flow. Yeah I got is this in some ways?
Robert Denney Juniors fault because imagine if Tony Stark
you've been played by somebody. Less cool.
Right. Less cool.
So Tony Stark been played by like the guy from Guardians of
the Galaxy. Yeah, thank you, right?
Right there. So like a song kind of Christian
City. Tony Stark would what Elon Musk?
Gotten that kind of residual glow up.
I don't think so. No, I don't know.
Thought he was like a religious zealot but yeah.
Or what? If it were like Paul Giamatti?
Who is cooler than Robert Downey jr.
But like maybe closer to the actual wow.
Yeah, exactly. What if have been Paul Giamatti
playing Tony Stark and not like some Paul Giamatti who's gone to
the gym and gotten a personal trainer and does a superhero
Thing? No.
But Paul Giamatti circle like that movie about wine?
Yes. Sideways called Giamatti.
Thank you sideways. Paul Giamatti plays, Tony Stark.
We would not have the Elan problem we have today.
All right, just fucking great. Yeah, it it he clearly believes
in his social or he's media representation his own
celebrity. And the fact that he is
constantly being, you know, built up by a legion of hooting
sycophants on Twitter who I think.
Maybe he now realized 80% of them are Bots.
Maybe that's why he's upset. Well, what's also great, is that
as Twitter, declines as a platform, his sick offense, will
need a new platform in order to get the word out.
And they've already decided that mainstream media is not the
place for them, so that's not going to happen.
Twitter, just feels like somewhat of a Dying platform.
True. Social hasn't really gone off
the ground yet. Doesn't seem so, we're, where
will they go? I don't think they know.
I mean, if anything is the special tears of what Absolutely
right. Yeah, that would be great.
Well, that was like, you know, after the electromagnetic pulse
like destroys all technology on Earth and then those who were
ready for. Yes, just basically.
Paul Giamatti handing out leaflets just bawled told you
about. He is the town crier and every
it every city around the country that would be great.
No, I think, what's what? I find so revelatory about this
episode, not this episode, the Twitter episode Is that there is
no good outcome here for either party.
Nothing good will happen. I mean, Elon will maybe get by
having only only to pay like, a couple billion dollars Twitter,
which is go on being at sad self as a company, and Ilan has like,
such a preview for the Democratic primary continue.
Yeah, exactly. There's no good outcome.
And everyone is just, you know, disaffected, and we're covering
it as the train wreck that it's always been.
But also with The realization that there's nothing else there
that it, that it, that it, we've descended purely into the
spectacle and, you know, entertainment of collapse when
the promise of it is so far in the rearview mirror.
No one even discussed and because we can't say the thing
that is so Apparent from this Fiasco, which is that, you know,
we actually can live without social media.
We can't we can kind of just live without it right actually
that essential. Yeah, and the people that can't
live without it or the one. That one at the most and and are
willing to pay for it. But apparently not as my basic.
I'm saying, Elon can't live without social media and and so
he's now stuck, you know getting too close to the thing that he
thought he wanted. I think the only positive
outcome that I could see with this is that Elon owns it at a
lower price. That's the only thing that would
be good to me. I still want them to own it.
Yeah, I mean I mean obviously you know why I want him to own
it so you could be right once I can be right because I said he
was going to but two because I think it will hasten.
Ian, again, winding of the Twitter experiment.
Hmm, some experiments I don't want me around like I would love
for the Democratic experiment that we have engaged in for more
than 200 years. Here, the United States to
continue on. That is my deepest wish.
But you know, that the Twitter experiment.
Yeah, I think it. I think that's okay.
If that one comes to an end. Yeah, it actually might help
this, the, the latter experiment.
But it's just, yeah, clearly, we can't exist with both.
She and, I think we, as a country are having to make the
tough decision of What do we want to see persist into the
next, you know, decade or Century the American Democratic
experience or social media and Twitter?
And that's a very that's very binary.
We're going to take that one up with Eric.
See you? He thinks yeah.
After he does a careful check of this episode and edits out any
mentions of uber that go too far into newcomer territory, right?
So with that, you know, we're will sign off for this episode
as the plottings text cycle. Continues onward new Come.
We'll be back in a couple weeks. We will dive deep into the Uber
files which maybe people remember in a couple weeks maybe
they won't. Maybe people have read a couple
weeks. Maybe.
Yeah. That's right.
Take take some time during your vacation to read.
The Uber files. Check back in with us and we'll
have a lot to say about it but until then, thanks Katie.
All right, dog days of summer. Episode part.
One is in the can. All right, we did it.
Goodbye. Goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.