1
00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:20,300
Welcome. 
I remember one of these podcasts

2
00:00:20,300 --> 00:00:23,100
room just got occupied. 
So she's now in a isn't a 

3
00:00:23,108 --> 00:00:26,200
mediator at this point. 
It's the it's the theater room 

4
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,100
of Soho House. 
Yeah. 

5
00:00:28,100 --> 00:00:30,500
It's the screen room with a show
like all like the I don't know. 

6
00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:34,700
Like, I don't independent movies
made by members, who know what I

7
00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:38,400
was gonna say, like, Terry 
Richardson movies or yeah, 

8
00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,500
something like that, right? 
Let me five. 

9
00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:43,700
That is all of Chloe, seven 
years home videos. 

10
00:00:43,700 --> 00:00:46,700
Oh my God, I think, I mean if 
they could even get such a 

11
00:00:46,700 --> 00:00:48,900
thing, you know, could get such 
a thing. 

12
00:00:49,500 --> 00:00:52,100
Let's take a look here. 
I see that line. 

13
00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,900
Okay, so I'm like this is the 
show. 

14
00:00:55,900 --> 00:00:57,500
It's already started. 
You don't need the outline. 

15
00:00:57,500 --> 00:00:59,600
We're recording right now. 
What was it? 

16
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,200
We were Giving about I don't 
remember you know when we when 

17
00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,800
we're looking at the at the 
state of the tech media 

18
00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,900
landscape. 
Certainly I noticed that the 

19
00:01:09,908 --> 00:01:12,900
therapist trial was on the front
page of the Wall Street Journal 

20
00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:15,500
was on the dress page of the 
business section of the times. 

21
00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:20,200
I think it would have been front
page of the Washington Post. 

22
00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,800
It was not front page of the 
journal, was the front page 

23
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,400
photo and then you had to go 
inside for the story but still 

24
00:01:26,700 --> 00:01:29,200
that's very high profile and you
guys have made very plain that 

25
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,500
you do not think that That this 
trial is worth all the coverage 

26
00:01:32,500 --> 00:01:35,300
and I go back and forth on it, I
go back I'll tell you what, turn

27
00:01:35,300 --> 00:01:39,100
my opinion on it was when I saw 
the picture of the Elizabeth 

28
00:01:39,100 --> 00:01:44,200
Holmes like cosplayers at the 
trial which maybe is unfair, you

29
00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:45,900
know. 
It really was just like the back

30
00:01:45,900 --> 00:01:48,600
heads of various women who had, 
you know were blond and had it 

31
00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,400
in buns. 
But as like man, it's still did 

32
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,100
penetrate pop culture in a way 
that I don't think anything 

33
00:01:55,100 --> 00:01:57,500
really hasn't Tech in a long 
time. 

34
00:01:57,500 --> 00:02:00,800
So like there's no question to 
me that the Media wants this 

35
00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,000
trial to happen so hard. 
They want this to be like, the 

36
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,500
trial of the decade or whatever 
are like pandemic entertainment,

37
00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:10,600
right? 
But I don't know. 

38
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,100
I mean, like, and I want to and 
I wanted to test it for that 

39
00:02:14,100 --> 00:02:16,800
because it does really seem like
there's no juice left in. 

40
00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:19,600
Like, in that fruit. 
The stories were so good. 

41
00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,100
You know, we all watch the 9 
documentaries and 15 podcasts 

42
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,200
and we feel like we got the 
story, but then, I don't know. 

43
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,000
It's like the second Elizabeth 
home takes the stand. 

44
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,600
And we all here? 
You know that fake-ass voice it 

45
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:32,500
all. 
It could all come running 

46
00:02:32,500 --> 00:02:34,600
rushing back. 
Why is genuinely a compelling 

47
00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,600
story? 
I think part of the issue, you 

48
00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,000
know, is just that, you know, 
the tech World consumes it much 

49
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,100
earlier than the rest of the 
public, right? 

50
00:02:43,100 --> 00:02:47,500
Like the John Kerry Rue piece 
came out in 2015. 

51
00:02:47,500 --> 00:02:50,000
You know, the initial one with 
that sort of subtle headline, 

52
00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:51,800
hot start up. 
Their nose has struggled with 

53
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,200
its blood testing technology. 
I struggled. 

54
00:02:54,300 --> 00:02:56,100
Yeah, maybe I remember reading 
that. 

55
00:02:56,100 --> 00:02:59,300
We all saw that and I we found 
it pretty convincing and then 

56
00:02:59,500 --> 00:03:03,300
she came Onstage at the Wall 
Street Journal conference and it

57
00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:06,400
was, you know, this big that was
before that piece came out know,

58
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,700
is after that what she said, the
buck stops here, she was very 

59
00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:11,500
out of it. 
How's the Wall Street Journal 

60
00:03:11,500 --> 00:03:13,400
thing was after no, but they 
didn't have John's age. 

61
00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,700
They had somebody else. 
It was like crap and they had 

62
00:03:15,900 --> 00:03:19,800
Jonathan crane to write and it 
was sort of like, are they gonna

63
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,200
go hard? 
It was sort of mixed, even 

64
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,500
though it was their own story, 
which was sort of weird. 

65
00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,300
Yeah, but thanks, that's like, 
that's the combination of the 

66
00:03:27,300 --> 00:03:30,400
conference but rice too. 
And so then we sort of Watched 

67
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,200
you know, sort of this, the VC 
World, finally accepted probably

68
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,700
something had gone wrong and 
then sort of shift from pushing 

69
00:03:37,700 --> 00:03:41,400
back against the story to sort 
of saying, well, wasn't a tech 

70
00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,100
thing. 
Anyway, and, and it feels like 

71
00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:46,300
it's sort of been resolved. 
Like, I think, especially after 

72
00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:49,300
the book came out. 
Most people think she's guilty 

73
00:03:49,300 --> 00:03:51,000
in the book was pretty 
convincing, and I don't even 

74
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,000
think if the jury somehow found 
that she was not guilty, I don't

75
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,000
know that I would be sold that 
she hadn't done something 

76
00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,200
unethical, right? 
Because clearly, that's not the 

77
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,100
jury, doesn't it? 
I'd sort of pure ethics. 

78
00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:04,900
But my point of view in the jury
is looking specifically for 

79
00:04:04,900 --> 00:04:06,600
intent. 
I don't write anything in 

80
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,500
dispute is not whether or not 
the device worked and dispute is

81
00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:13,300
not whether or not investors. 
Were told something that was 

82
00:04:13,300 --> 00:04:15,300
untrue. 
It's whether or not she had an 

83
00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:18,000
intent to defraud them or 
whether or not as she argues. 

84
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,200
She was not really informed or 
the other argument that I 

85
00:04:21,207 --> 00:04:22,600
actually find really compelling 
that. 

86
00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,700
I'm hoping gets more play. 
Is this idea that she was in an 

87
00:04:25,700 --> 00:04:28,800
abusive relationship and she's 
brought up the term coercive 

88
00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,900
control, which She's very 
specific term, a couple of 

89
00:04:31,900 --> 00:04:34,300
states in the country. 
Now, of course of control laws 

90
00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:36,300
or trying to pass course of 
control laws, including 

91
00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:41,000
California Hawaii in New York, 
and it's a very, it's it's a 

92
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,500
phenomenon associated with 
domestic abuse. 

93
00:04:44,100 --> 00:04:48,900
We are by basically, what 
domestic abuse Advocates argue 

94
00:04:49,700 --> 00:04:53,600
is that physical violence is 
sort of the endpoint of an 

95
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,000
abusive relationship that 
abusers their goal is to control

96
00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,300
the other person. 
Their goal is to take Their 

97
00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:03,700
freedom, their goal is basically
to entrap them and so there are 

98
00:05:03,707 --> 00:05:07,500
a lot of steps that happen 
before anybody is physically 

99
00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:09,700
abused. 
And so people are starting to 

100
00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:12,000
recognize the totality of this 
and of course, I've written 

101
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,900
about it. 
So I'm interested in it, you 

102
00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:17,100
know, I wrote a story about FKA 
twigs and her relationship where

103
00:05:17,100 --> 00:05:20,200
she sued over, what she 
considered, you know, coercive 

104
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:25,400
controlling relationship, that 
included fairly horrible 

105
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,600
allegations of physical 
violence. 

106
00:05:28,100 --> 00:05:30,400
You know, we've spoken with 
representative core the bush 

107
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,000
from from Maryland about her 
abusive relationship and how 

108
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,400
much of it involved coercion and
so to see in homes, is defense 

109
00:05:39,700 --> 00:05:41,900
homes as lawyers raised the 
Specter. 

110
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,700
That this was a part of why she 
acted, she acted, I think is 

111
00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:47,500
really interesting. 
Truly interesting. 

112
00:05:47,500 --> 00:05:50,500
It's not what you think that you
find that really got, you know, 

113
00:05:50,500 --> 00:05:53,300
it's not just something the tech
press uncovered and its 

114
00:05:53,300 --> 00:05:55,700
investigations because it's a 
fairly new argument. 

115
00:05:55,700 --> 00:05:58,300
That's been put out by her team.
Well, it's complicated by her 

116
00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:00,700
position in sort of the 
narrative where You know, she's 

117
00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:03,600
the one on the magazine covers. 
I mean, part of the reason their

118
00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,900
nose was blown up because it 
was, here's a strong woman who's

119
00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:10,000
really leading the show. 
So then for the defense to be, 

120
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,500
actually she was totally 
controlled by a man is both 

121
00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:18,800
counter to the whole narrative. 
That everybody procon sort of 

122
00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,800
agreed with, I mean, yeah. 
And I, obviously, I guess on 

123
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,100
that defense, there's a lot, we 
don't know, we're starting to 

124
00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:28,000
see, like, text messages and 
stuff, but, right, and it's 

125
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,800
still not clear, totally that 
they're going to do. 

126
00:06:29,900 --> 00:06:31,300
Do that is the main defense, 
right? 

127
00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:32,900
They sort. 
And it's not clear, it's just 

128
00:06:32,900 --> 00:06:34,800
something that was raised in a 
court filing. 

129
00:06:34,900 --> 00:06:39,100
And of course, you know, I think
that the idea that a woman can't

130
00:06:39,100 --> 00:06:42,500
be in an abusive relationship is
one of the tropes that, you 

131
00:06:42,500 --> 00:06:45,900
know, we've seen in reporting 
and, you know, and stories about

132
00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:48,000
domestic abuse. 
That actually keeps women and 

133
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,900
trapped in relationships, the 
shame, they feel about admitting

134
00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:53,800
that they could be in that 
situation, especially think 

135
00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,900
something about their lives that
says, yeah, wrong quote-unquote,

136
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,300
did you think it diminishes? 
I mean like I, you know, your FK

137
00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:00,800
AFK. 
What is f Ka? 

138
00:07:00,900 --> 00:07:02,400
FKA twigs. 
Okay. 

139
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:03,800
Twig story. 
Hit, you know. 

140
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:04,600
We were. 
Yeah. 

141
00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:06,900
She was in. 
Yeah. 

142
00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,200
Eric just discovered LCD 
Soundsystem? 

143
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,500
Yeah I mean that was a 
physically abusive relationship 

144
00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:15,300
I think with Shia LaBeouf. 
I mean wouldn't someone like 

145
00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:18,800
Elizabeth Holmes who at that 
point in time was you know a 

146
00:07:18,808 --> 00:07:22,500
billionaire at least on paper 
using this and there doesn't 

147
00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:24,500
seem to have been physical 
elements of it. 

148
00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:27,800
I mean do you do people that 
focus on this type of law and 

149
00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,200
you know the women that have 
been abused it? 

150
00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:32,200
Doesn't it feel like that? 
Could diminish that in some 

151
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:33,500
respect? 
I mean I understand what you're 

152
00:07:33,500 --> 00:07:36,100
saying that physical abuse is 
the endpoint of what can long be

153
00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:38,900
an abusive relationship. 
But you know, will there be that

154
00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:42,100
many people that are pushing for
more recognition of this kind of

155
00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:45,100
abuse seeing someone like, 
Elizabeth Holmes? 

156
00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:47,500
He's not defense and saying, oh 
man, this is a step too far. 

157
00:07:47,700 --> 00:07:50,200
You know, I think it depends on 
two things one whether or not 

158
00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,800
the defense team, actually uses 
this argument and presents 

159
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,100
compelling evidence, like text 
messages or emails or, you know,

160
00:07:57,100 --> 00:07:59,500
any of the other sorts of 
things, you know. 

161
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,200
Brainiest notes or account 
shared with friends, any of 

162
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,500
those sorts of things that often
bolts, bolster allegations, and 

163
00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:10,300
give them wait in the minds of 
the jury and in the minds of the

164
00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:14,500
public, and if that were to 
happen, I think that that would 

165
00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:16,800
be an interesting thing to take 
a look at. 

166
00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,700
Because again, the idea that 
domestic abuse is primarily 

167
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:27,900
about physical violence, isn't 
is a is not necessarily true. 

168
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,500
It's all right. 
Offense to say, both, If we did 

169
00:08:30,500 --> 00:08:34,600
nothing wrong and I always 
coerced into doing it right the 

170
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,000
wrong thing. 
So it does feel the idea of the 

171
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,700
idea of penalty in this case is 
such an interesting one too 

172
00:08:39,700 --> 00:08:43,000
because, you know, you never 
want to Say Never And as we've 

173
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,200
seen frequently in Silicon 
Valley, the people that get 

174
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,200
blacklisted or blackballed, or 
whatever can return raising 

175
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,800
rounds quite easily and always 
return. 

176
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,500
Yeah, I mean, I would be 11,000,
pardon Anthony level. 

177
00:08:56,500 --> 00:08:58,900
Yeah, he got a glowing interview
kick you today. 

178
00:08:58,900 --> 00:09:03,000
I mean, And Travis kalanick, I, 
you know, said he's probably out

179
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,800
there raising, I think he wants 
another billion for cloud 

180
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,700
kitchens. 
You know, is already worth like 

181
00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:11,500
5 billion. 
Maybe he wants sort of 10 

182
00:09:11,500 --> 00:09:15,300
million plus right. 
So, yeah, I mean Highlands beer.

183
00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:18,200
It's a pretty ballsy move. 
I would say, I did not, I would 

184
00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,300
not put, especially in our 
current funding environment. 

185
00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:23,100
Nothing is impossible. 
But like, you know, if the true,

186
00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:27,000
you know, result of any sort of 
punitive action is to prevent 

187
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,800
someone from being able to 
participate. 

188
00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:31,500
Pate in the industry that 
they're in. 

189
00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:34,200
How would say she might be there
already. 

190
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,600
And so it'll be interesting to 
see like what, you know, blood 

191
00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,900
the public really wants from her
in order to feel that Justice 

192
00:09:41,900 --> 00:09:43,500
was done. 
I mean, the thing that always 

193
00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:46,100
made the theranos case, step 
outside of the typical Tech 

194
00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:47,400
Scandal. 
And the reason that I think it 

195
00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,200
had purchased in the mainstream 
is that there were steaks, 

196
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:51,800
right? 
It wasn't just about someone to 

197
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,400
frauding Betsy DeVos and Rupert 
Murdoch. 

198
00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,900
It was like, there are people in
Arizona who were told they had. 

199
00:09:56,900 --> 00:09:58,600
We thank her for that part of 
it. 

200
00:09:59,000 --> 00:09:59,800
Yeah, sure. 
It made. 

201
00:09:59,900 --> 00:10:01,900
I feel like we're writing 
stories about things that have, 

202
00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:04,800
you know impact. 
No, no, that's not what I'm 

203
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:06,900
saying. 
I'm not saying we thank her that

204
00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:08,900
it's terrible. 
I'm saying, we, I would say I 

205
00:10:08,908 --> 00:10:10,500
was joking. 
There were thing here because 

206
00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:14,000
Rupert Murdoch got to Friday and
I'm cheering for that like that,

207
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,500
you know, for the record I'm not
cheering for Rupert Murdoch 

208
00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:18,900
about state of Oz to be 
defrauded. 

209
00:10:18,900 --> 00:10:21,300
It's really important that 
that's Eric statement and 

210
00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:23,300
definitely not mine. 
Yeah, yeah. 

211
00:10:23,300 --> 00:10:27,200
I to abstain from signing on to 
that statement but I do think 

212
00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,700
that, you know, because there 
were people Being completely 

213
00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:33,800
fraudulent blood test because of
it, it helped bring this into a 

214
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,100
level of relevancy. 
That I always find is the major 

215
00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:38,700
problem with a lot of tech 
investigations is that you're 

216
00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:41,100
like, okay, Travis was an 
asshole. 

217
00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,800
If you can't prove to me why 
this is affecting people's lives

218
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,400
and it did, by the way, I think 
we in the case of Travis, but 

219
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,800
because it's happened with 
fairness, you know, it mattered 

220
00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:53,900
and yet, you know, we're at this
point now we're like, What is 

221
00:10:53,900 --> 00:10:57,900
the appropriate crime to be 
charged with and like how much 

222
00:10:57,900 --> 00:11:00,900
is she going to be sad? 
Will be interesting to see from 

223
00:11:00,900 --> 00:11:05,000
The Trial, just how many 
instances of people getting sort

224
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,300
of incorrect results that 
affected their lives, the 

225
00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:11,000
government can produce, I mean 
that keep in mind even the 

226
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,200
government produces Myriad 
examples, it's really the 

227
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,700
intent. 
That's the question, right? 

228
00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:20,800
Because it, you know, did, it's 
intentionally defrauding 

229
00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:25,700
investors and users of a product
is very different from just 

230
00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:28,600
making a bad product right? 
From failing, definitely. 

231
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,500
Do you think? 
I wonder how much the investors 

232
00:11:31,500 --> 00:11:33,100
themselves care? 
I understand that's not the 

233
00:11:33,100 --> 00:11:36,700
burden of proof, but it reminds 
me of the people that, you know,

234
00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:39,500
we're defrauded after funding, 
you know, the people that had 

235
00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:43,300
the GoFundMe for Trump's border 
wall and and Steve Bannon and 

236
00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:46,300
the other dude ended up getting,
I believe also charged by the 

237
00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:50,900
feds for for fraud. 
It's like I bet you the tens of 

238
00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:53,000
thousands of people that gave 
money to this, you know, 

239
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,300
completely corrupt GoFundMe 
money. 

240
00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:57,600
Well, spent to them like they 
got to feel good because they 

241
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,200
were pushing money towards a 
hey, It'll cause that they agree

242
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,200
with. 
I don't know, having so much 

243
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,100
sue. 
If they if you believe that the 

244
00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:12,200
FBI and deep State agents are 
against Donald Trump and all the

245
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,900
people associated with him. 
It's not inconceivable, I think 

246
00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:19,400
if that's the place someone's 
coming from to also think of 

247
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,600
those charges completely 
fraudulent and of themselves, 

248
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,700
right? 
But back to the media side of 

249
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:25,600
things with it. 
I mean it's clear to me from, I 

250
00:12:25,608 --> 00:12:28,000
haven't read any of the stories 
yet because I'm still mix on how

251
00:12:28,008 --> 00:12:30,100
much I care about this thing. 
Just reading, you know, the 

252
00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:32,800
tweets from people like are 
encrypted, we're here, you know.

253
00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:36,200
Oh my God, just reading the 
Tweeter and Nightmare combat, 

254
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:37,600
your everything is wrong with 
this. 

255
00:12:38,500 --> 00:12:42,500
Yeah, it's like I have a podcast
worth take, but I've only 

256
00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:44,800
consumed tweets on this. 
So what happened? 

257
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,300
I read the carry Roux. 
Okay, I read on treating the 

258
00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:50,500
book in English class. 
Well, you read the book, I read 

259
00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:53,300
the book, I read the carry right
interview John Kerry room. 

260
00:12:53,300 --> 00:12:57,100
I'm a true expert here. 
What's the chain. 

261
00:12:57,500 --> 00:13:01,800
But but it's just very Clear to 
me that the fixation on the part

262
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,600
of the New York Times and the 
post and the Wall Street Journal

263
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,400
is the fact that you note is the
media that is on trial here as 

264
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,700
well. 
And, you know, we're looking at,

265
00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:12,300
you know, the cover of Fortune 
where she, you know, she's out 

266
00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:14,400
for blood. 
And she was clearly someone who 

267
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,900
was built up by the Press 
because the Press desired, 

268
00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:21,900
someone 21 be the head of, you 
know, a female executive which 

269
00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:24,500
there are too few of them. 
And so it's a very easy pitch 

270
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:27,300
like we talked about in the past
on this show to get people 

271
00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:30,100
writing about it and it's blood 
which Is, you know, which is 

272
00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:34,300
kind of sexy and it's Hardware 
which is something that you 

273
00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:38,000
rarely see Hardware Barons and I
happened during that Hardware 

274
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,300
Renaissance around wearables and
around everything being 

275
00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:43,100
connected in the home and 
around. 

276
00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:46,900
There was a lot going on in 
terms of investment into objects

277
00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:48,500
that we're not going to make 
anyone any money. 

278
00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:51,600
Yeah, so I mean, look, of 
course, the media has never 

279
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,400
really self-reflective about any
of this but like, you know, I do

280
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,000
think there could be a way that 
people view this trial and the 

281
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,500
amount of positive. 
Of like the amount that is 

282
00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:04,100
Elizabeth Holmes as a figure is 
directly, the result of press 

283
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,200
and the stories that we wanted 
to be true because it made for 

284
00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:10,000
better stories and better 
magazine covers and a better 

285
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,800
economic model that, you know, 
could cause people to take a 

286
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,800
second look but you know she's 
such a caricature now that it 

287
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,600
probably won't matter what the 
mainstream media to. 

288
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,900
If we group The Post in the 
journal and the times into that 

289
00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:26,400
category, the fascination is 
it's a general interest story 

290
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,100
now. 
And so, right, you know, when we

291
00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:33,400
were Working at Tech 
Publications for the most part 

292
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,400
or business Publications. 
It made sense that they were 

293
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,600
obsessed with homes and 2015 16 
and 17 because it was a world 

294
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,300
that our readers were really 
invested in. 

295
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,900
When the average New York Times 
reader is probably not invested 

296
00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:52,700
in the cover of Fortune magazine
that features Elizabeth home 

297
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:54,500
right here. 
You know, they're reading that, 

298
00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:57,600
that's the that's what I want to
jump because I mean, you know, 

299
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,000
we covered all in 2015 but then 
the Alex Gibney documentary 

300
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,800
comes out in 2019 and I was 
looking at Google Trends and 

301
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,600
that's when a lot of the search 
interest comes out of it, you 

302
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,300
know, we're talking years later.
So I do you think yeah, some of 

303
00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:14,100
why we react negatively Tom and 
I at least to the coverage. 

304
00:15:14,100 --> 00:15:18,100
Now is just sort of like hipster
dumb in the lamest form which is

305
00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:20,100
just 0. 
This was a big Silicon Valley 

306
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:23,200
story years ago and why is it 
still playing out? 

307
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,700
And I do think it's that's when 
we're thinking about tech. 

308
00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:31,000
We're like political stories are
sort of national Is when they 

309
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,900
come out, but in certain way, 
Tech stories can stay pretty 

310
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:38,000
small for a long time. 
And then if somebody blows them 

311
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,900
up, all of a sudden, you know, 
now this is Tiger King or 

312
00:15:40,908 --> 00:15:42,900
whatever. 
Well, actually it reminds me 

313
00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:46,600
more of Enron. 
I think is the is the most 

314
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,900
analogous story I can think of, 
you know, when Bethenny MacLean 

315
00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:52,900
was investigate doing those 
stories about Enron, it was, you

316
00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:58,500
know, 2,000 right 2001. 
And for the most part it was 

317
00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:02,800
only People who were interested 
in financial news, who read the 

318
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,600
stories, it wasn't. 
I mean, the the phenomenon 

319
00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:10,200
coincided again with another 
Alex gibney's documentary that 

320
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,200
came out in 2005. 
The smartest guys in the room 

321
00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:17,800
which was based on a 2003 book 
that Bethenny and Peter elkind, 

322
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,400
my former colleagues at Fortune 
who are both awesome people. 

323
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,700
I want to say they're wonderful 
that they had written in 2003 

324
00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:28,600
and so you really saw the public
interest and Enron Ryan. 

325
00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:32,100
Build around the collapse of the
company because suddenly becomes

326
00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:34,400
general interest because 
everybody loses their jobs and 

327
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:35,900
regular people are losing their 
jobs. 

328
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,600
You see, the interest in what 
was going on with Enron, you 

329
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,100
know, build around the trial and
then around this documentary, 

330
00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:49,500
but the there was not general 
public interest in the 

331
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:51,500
investigative pieces. 
That Bethany was writing it 

332
00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:56,400
first and and their nose feels 
very similar except if there are

333
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,500
no suppose a small company so 
didn't have lots and lots and 

334
00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:00,400
lots of employees. 
He's who all lost their jobs 

335
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,400
when it collapsed. 
And, you know, a whole 

336
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,000
accounting firm didn't go down 
as well. 

337
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,800
Right now, I feel like in the 
business world, you need to 

338
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,000
process the lessons from their 
nose, in 2015, right? 

339
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,599
Not saying that there are 
perfect, but the smart investors

340
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,599
need to take in what went on 
with Enron. 

341
00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:18,200
And, you know, and integrate 
that and they were all they were

342
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,500
integrated with that's before 
two thousand, five in two, 

343
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:22,000
three. 
That's what the business press 

344
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,700
is trying to do. 
So then, by the time, the 

345
00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:27,700
Public's grappling with it, it's
changing culture. 

346
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,500
It Just weird that it can change
culture is so much later when 

347
00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:34,500
the actual like movers and 
players have sort of accepted 

348
00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:37,300
like something bad happen like 
this, right is the nature. 

349
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:41,900
I also like in the business or 
the business processes, but it 

350
00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:45,500
also, because of a number of 
factors it lent itself. 

351
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:48,600
Well, to a visual documentary 
form which I think helps a ton, 

352
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,100
if it were just a book, no one 
fucking reads. 

353
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:52,500
So that's not going to go 
anywhere. 

354
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:56,400
But Elizabeth Holmes, there's a 
huge amount of footage of her. 

355
00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:59,500
Yeah, you know these conferences
her speaking on stage, Age her 

356
00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:03,200
talking to her employees her for
some reason, jumping very slowly

357
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,000
in a bounce house. 
That was like I have been in the

358
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,200
Galaxy. 
Yeah. 

359
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,700
And Alex Gibney thing, which is 
totally sensationalistic, you 

360
00:18:09,708 --> 00:18:11,800
know, the doc. 
I mean there's like, you know, 

361
00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:14,200
what is your? 
They have very normal office 

362
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,100
stuff but they have to make it 
seem Sinister right there. 

363
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:20,500
Sure, I guess if you, you know, 
anyone is jumping up and down, 

364
00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:23,500
it seems Sinister but like it 
was a compelling 

365
00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:26,400
sensationalistic documentary and
she was a great fucking 

366
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,100
character like she is what she's
being sweet. 

367
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:30,700
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

368
00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:34,000
And she has a specific outfit 
and she repeats the same story 

369
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,300
over and over again and there 
was tons of documentary footage 

370
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:37,900
and it was the same with Enron, 
right? 

371
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:40,300
I mean there were all these, 
there is all this video of Ken 

372
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:44,900
Lay and I don't remember the 
other guys, but it's killing 

373
00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:46,500
after knowing. 
Yeah. 

374
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:49,100
Yeah. 
Like, there's like literal audio

375
00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:52,400
and video of them conniving to 
cut or not them specifically. 

376
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,400
But like Enron employees 
conniving to cut the state of 

377
00:18:55,408 --> 00:18:58,500
California off and cause rolling
blackouts. 

378
00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:01,600
I mean, that's That's good shit.
And it's so rare when that 

379
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,300
happens and you know, compared 
to something like uber, which 

380
00:19:04,300 --> 00:19:06,000
were great stories. 
I mean, I, you know, I loved 

381
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,500
reading like Isaac's book. 
It's not that interesting, 

382
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:11,600
right? 
Like it's, you know, it's a lot 

383
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,200
of scenes of, You Know, Travis 
being upset and you know, and he

384
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,700
was fuming after this or that 
happen, but it's just not going 

385
00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:21,900
to make a documentary thing. 
Is this breaking news right now?

386
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:24,100
Prince Andrew has just served 
with a lawsuit. 

387
00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:26,700
Oh my God, the Jeffrey Epstein 
accuser. 

388
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,400
Hold on. 
Hold up, interesting. 

389
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,800
We will see unfortunately, 
because it crossed my screen via

390
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,300
CNBC, it's only a headline and 
it says, please check back for 

391
00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:42,700
updates. 
So, we'll see what happens. 

392
00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:45,300
I look forward to that trial 
where he has to defend the fact 

393
00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:48,500
that he lost his sweat glands, 
or was his overage of sweat 

394
00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:50,300
glands because of the Falkland 
Island War. 

395
00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:54,300
How do you know this shit is 
crazy? 

396
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,600
Yeah, whatever. 
Those one of the greatest TV 

397
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,100
moments of the last couple of 
years is him being like I I lost

398
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:07,100
the ability to sweat, there was 
no one to tell him not to do 

399
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:09,900
that interview. 
Yeah, yeah, that's when you get 

400
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:12,200
Brunswick in there. 
Where were you before I set this

401
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,700
while I was setting up. 
You think there's just like 

402
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,400
they're these stories that the 
media feels compelled to cover 

403
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:22,200
even though? 
The reporters don't like the 

404
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,200
story or they're these weird 
counter into it. 

405
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,400
I was thinking I mean if you 
want to cover Derek well-knit 

406
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,200
well I'm thinking about the 
Facebook glasses thing. 

407
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,900
Like it's funny that these 
stories come out and they get 

408
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:35,900
blow up coverage because it's, 
like Facebook's doing something 

409
00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:37,600
that people are going to want to
talk about. 

410
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:40,900
Even though the orientation of a
lot of the stories is, this is 

411
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:43,300
Dom comedy copying Snapchat, 
blah, blah, blah. 

412
00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:46,100
Like it to me. 
There's a that the sort of 

413
00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:49,200
fatalism of the media I think 
plays out in sort of that. 

414
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,700
There are no stories and a lot 
of Stuff where they're sort of 

415
00:20:51,708 --> 00:20:54,900
separate intuitions about what's
newsworthy. 

416
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,400
And then the reporter is sort of
underlying View and therefore 

417
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,400
the vector of coverage. 
I will say that when I moved to 

418
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,400
California to cover Tech, you 
know I've been covering Wall 

419
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,300
Street, I covered it at a time. 
When you could argue it became 

420
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:11,600
general, interest news because 
of the generous financial 

421
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:17,100
crisis, and I had never been a 
tech, like I was not a gadgety 

422
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:19,700
person. 
So I was fascinated coming to 

423
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:23,000
the valley. 
Lie about by the aggressive 

424
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:28,200
coverage of of gadgets. 
I didn't understand it. 

425
00:21:28,500 --> 00:21:32,900
It was so alien to me that there
were so many people. 

426
00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:38,800
Voraciously hoovering up stories
about new, you know, apple and 

427
00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:43,300
minor improvements to products 
or like the Snapchat glasses. 

428
00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:47,500
I just felt like it was a world 
that had been unknown to me. 

429
00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:50,200
Did you see the video on the 
iPhone 14? 

430
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,600
There is you tipped? 
Uber has yeah laughter, if I do,

431
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,500
I'm like, well, I was going to 
buy an iPhone 13 way more people

432
00:21:57,500 --> 00:22:02,000
get out about that day. 
That's what I learned like. 

433
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,600
Who cares my spending $1000 on 
iPhone this year, or next year? 

434
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,600
What features of mind getting? 
You know, my I could write a 

435
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:15,400
story about, you know, about 
black Stones, like, takeover of 

436
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,800
the commercial real estate 
market. 

437
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,900
A move that basically like most 
fixed income. 

438
00:22:20,300 --> 00:22:23,700
Market and moves like, the real 
estate market and impacts all of

439
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:25,100
us in Myriad ways. 
Blah, blah, blah. 

440
00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:26,200
Stop listening. 
No one. 

441
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,500
Yeah, and I could, then when I 
moved to California, I could 

442
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:33,500
write a story about it, iOS 
update, and it would be like a 

443
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:36,300
gajillion readers. 
But that, but that to me, gets 

444
00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:40,300
back to the theranos phenomenon 
and one of the reasons that it 

445
00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:43,400
worked was because it was about 
a piece of hardware and we're in

446
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:48,300
this period now where Hardware 
is so static and in and there's 

447
00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:50,200
nothing really interesting 
coming out on a hardware. 

448
00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:53,300
That's and so for any company to
make an attempt to do something 

449
00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:56,100
that seems novel or new, I mean,
fuck the Snapchat. 

450
00:22:56,100 --> 00:22:59,000
Spectacles, Katie. 
I think you waited in line for 

451
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,400
Me. 
Maybe did in New York? 

452
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:02,300
I got. 
Are you? 

453
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:03,200
It was cool. 
Yeah. 

454
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,200
Yeah, my Twitter daughter for a 
while was wearing your Snapchats

455
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,300
spectacles. 
Yeah. 

456
00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:11,100
I still have not acted. 
I sold mine on eBay very soon 

457
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:12,700
after acquiring. 
Yeah. 

458
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:14,500
And the price like plummeted 
because member at first, they 

459
00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:16,500
were going for like a couple 
thousand dollars. 

460
00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:18,500
Yes, I should have sold made 
money on. 

461
00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:22,600
In Katie, I did make some money.
Wow, a Speculator over here. 

462
00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:27,100
Yeah, but like the, yeah, 
Hardware is so boring right now 

463
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,200
that even when someone makes a 
minor attempt to do what seems 

464
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,900
to be novel or could be, you 
know, interesting to a mass 

465
00:23:35,900 --> 00:23:38,400
audience, the journals are going
to jump all the fuck over it. 

466
00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:41,100
Even though these Snapchat as 
sorry, huh, these Facebook 

467
00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:44,000
glasses, the best that they've 
done over the course of those, 

468
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,900
you know, spectacles which came 
out in 2016. 

469
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,100
I think to now is that now they 
look the less. 

470
00:23:50,300 --> 00:23:53,400
Move it, that's it. 
But importantly value of this 

471
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,900
stupidity was so that they stood
out so that people wouldn't feel

472
00:23:57,300 --> 00:24:01,100
skeeved out by being right. 
I think Evan thought he was high

473
00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:03,400
fashion. 
I think he had convinced 

474
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,000
himself, all right? 
He was Tom was a real time was 

475
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:07,900
obsessed with SNAP for many 
years. 

476
00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:12,000
So I want the Deep the Deep 
reading upon reflection of the 

477
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,700
spectacles. 
Well first of all, they're still

478
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:18,300
making them and and to Snapchats
credit other a lot of things to 

479
00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:21,900
snaps credit and Evans credit. 
I mean one is That he has 

480
00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:24,800
actually put out glasses that 
have some augmented reality 

481
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,600
features in them. 
They're lame they don't do 

482
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,300
anything good but at least they 
you know come close to the idea 

483
00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:33,800
of what these wearable 
Technologies are supposed to be 

484
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,900
which is like putting some sort 
of computerized reality in the 

485
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:40,200
real world. 
And the fact that he has 

486
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,400
recognized that there a toy, he 
said this from the beginning 

487
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,800
like that, you know, the 
problems that magic leap and 

488
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,000
these other companies run into, 
is they make all these grandiose

489
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,400
Promises of like, This is you at
work and you're going to be like

490
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,500
throwing emails, you know, I 
don't have your field of vision 

491
00:24:55,500 --> 00:24:58,600
and in fact, it's like a tiny, 
you know, field of vision that 

492
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,800
can do minor little gimmicks. 
I mean it's basically where the 

493
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,400
technology is and where it's 
going to be. 

494
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,400
We can talk about that later but
like yeah, Evan has always said 

495
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:09,700
that this is going to be 
something at least for the next 

496
00:25:09,700 --> 00:25:11,400
ten. 
Maybe more years like within the

497
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,000
realm of a toy. 
And so but there's these 

498
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,600
promises that, you know, 
Facebook and he's other an apple

499
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,200
which is going to put out their 
glasses, are they may be some? 

500
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:20,600
Yeah. 
Sure. 

501
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,700
I mean they've been investing in
it for years and I don't I don't

502
00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:25,800
know I don't know if I think the
information is written like a 

503
00:25:25,808 --> 00:25:28,600
million stories about it I mean 
it's all bullshit to me because 

504
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,800
they're not cool, all these 
things suck, it's just glasses 

505
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,300
with cameras on them which at 
most is a convenience to not 

506
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:36,800
holding up your phone and taking
a pic but someday it will be 

507
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,100
awesome, right? 
I mean that's I think I mean, I 

508
00:25:40,108 --> 00:25:42,700
think part of what powers 
something Tech stories is like 

509
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:45,400
the intuition and I mean, again 
to tie back to their nose, it's 

510
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,900
sort of the idea, sounds great. 
You can see why I made. 

511
00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:51,000
Sure, I have a lot of Is it 
sounds great? 

512
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,100
There is the idea for so long. 
People are like okay the 

513
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:57,900
execution failed snap did this 
five years ago, but someday, you

514
00:25:57,908 --> 00:26:00,700
know, computer vision is so 
important, put it on everything 

515
00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:03,500
and you'll be able to do a ton 
of stuff like that intuition, 

516
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,400
no, in face of All Odds, all 
evidence Human Experience, you 

517
00:26:08,408 --> 00:26:10,200
know, stay strong. 
And I mean, that's sort of how 

518
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,800
we have new. 
Cool idea is right at some 

519
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,800
point. 
They figured out were, but I 

520
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,800
also think like, people need to 
recognize that there is a 

521
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,800
reality like an actual reality 
of whether these things are 

522
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,400
possible. 
Possible in any way that people 

523
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,100
describe. 
I mean, like I remember one of 

524
00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:25,300
the things that you said that I 
thought was like one of the 

525
00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:27,200
smart things you said was that 
you were never. 

526
00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:29,700
We were never interested in 
Ubers self-driving. 

527
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:31,900
So yeah, you're never gonna 
write about that because you 

528
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:34,200
thought it was bullshit but you 
never get credit for that. 

529
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,000
My problem with that was like my
stance was not to like, shit, 

530
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,000
all over them. 
It was just to not write about 

531
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,900
them a lot because I thought 
they were overhyped and it's 

532
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:45,400
sort of hard as a reporter to 
get much traction off of just 

533
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:50,400
like saying out of a story, you 
know, I feel smart maybe my Is 

534
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,800
like, respect me if they ever 
figured out that, that was my 

535
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,400
strategy but but yeah, it's not 
a winning play necessarily as a 

536
00:26:57,408 --> 00:26:59,000
reporter, just sit out a dumb 
story. 

537
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,900
Well, I do think that these, 
someone that these products do 

538
00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:06,300
hit reality, that just hit the 
market reality. 

539
00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:09,600
And so the reporters who are in 
the position of trying to 

540
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,500
prognosticate and explain why 
they're impractical, and why 

541
00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:15,200
they won't work. 
And I was one of those reporters

542
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,800
and it is very thankless the 
reality on the ground. 

543
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,300
Those that you are basically 
telling that story to a group of

544
00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:22,600
people who don't want to hear 
it. 

545
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,200
It's not really a general 
interest story. 

546
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,200
And so what have you done? 
Like you've laid down a record. 

547
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,000
So, when the self-driving car 
doesn't happen by 2022, you were

548
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,000
right? 
And like, it does feel after a 

549
00:27:35,008 --> 00:27:38,000
while, like your, if you want to
do investigative work. 

550
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,100
Your time is better. 
Spent looking at something else.

551
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:44,100
Other than the idea that you've,
you're talking to a crazy 

552
00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:45,800
dreamer. 
Yeah. 

553
00:27:46,100 --> 00:27:47,500
On those self-driving 
predictions. 

554
00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:52,200
Like the media is sort of One of
the main villains right by, of 

555
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,000
course. 
So it's by putting out the 

556
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,400
headlines that say, this is 
going to happen and xyd. 

557
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,100
Sure. 
And I remember with, you know, I

558
00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:01,500
mean so like to the Facebook 
glasses, like the version of 

559
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:03,800
that with self-driving cars 
which was way, Mo was one way Mo

560
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,300
a couple years ago. 
You know. 

561
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:07,300
It wasn't called way more than 
but Google when they were you 

562
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:10,100
know working on their self 
driving car tech. 

563
00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:13,200
We're taking all these reporters
out on these drives these 

564
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,600
self-driving, you know, tours in
like parking, lots and Mountain 

565
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,900
View and they were all these 
glowing Thousand words stories 

566
00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:23,600
in The Verge about how fun it 
was to sit in the world's 

567
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,200
dumbest car and be like drawn, 
you know, driven around a 

568
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,000
parking lot and that was 67 
years ago, but every no one's 

569
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,600
gets held accountable. 
Like, that drives me crazy. 

570
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,500
I do think there should be, 
somebody should get blame. 

571
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:40,000
Like anyone reporters was a 
version of this for a version of

572
00:28:40,008 --> 00:28:44,400
this for so many beats, you 
know, on on Wall Streets deals 

573
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,500
reporting. 
You know how many deals are 

574
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:48,200
reported on. 
If you're a Wall Street deals, 

575
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:49,700
reporter you're trying to scoop 
deals. 

576
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,600
Never happen. 
Where company a just doesn't buy

577
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,800
come maybe, right. 
And Bloomberg. 

578
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,200
There was such an incentive just
to report. 

579
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,700
It's like they were deal talks. 
Yeah. 

580
00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:01,300
Because like this is like 
everyone else, like sure. 

581
00:29:01,300 --> 00:29:03,900
It's the same time. 
Like what is holding the 

582
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:06,100
reporters? 
Quote unquote accountable do you

583
00:29:06,108 --> 00:29:09,000
know, Damien like is our job is 
to inform the public. 

584
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,100
Not get them excited about, 
don't skills that are never 

585
00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:13,600
going to happen. 
I got super excited about deal. 

586
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,100
So this like for my heart, this 
has really been fun. 

587
00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:19,500
Here's a, here's the corollary 
in my world. 

588
00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:24,500
Investigations, when the FBI is 
investigating something? 

589
00:29:24,700 --> 00:29:28,000
The number of times, the 
investigation ends indictment is

590
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,200
not one of the, the percentage 
of times the investigation ends 

591
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,300
an indictment. 
I will just say is not 100% and 

592
00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:43,600
so is it correct for a reporter 
to inform the public that an 

593
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,300
investigation is ongoing? 
When obviously, by saying that 

594
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:50,600
someone or something is under an
Action. 

595
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:58,700
It is a problem for many 
parties, it makes it puts the 

596
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,200
person under investigation a 
position of having to defend 

597
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,100
themselves before. 
They're actually being asked to 

598
00:30:03,100 --> 00:30:05,300
defend themselves in a court of 
law, which they may never be 

599
00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:10,200
asked to defend themselves of, 
if there is no indictment, then 

600
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,500
what is the result? 
The role and responsibilities of

601
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,300
the media, right? 
And and I think that that's, I 

602
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:20,800
think it's complicated. 
I want Go back to the legal 

603
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,900
issue for sick. 
I mean, to me, I covered, you 

604
00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:26,500
know, I did a story about 
boobers legal problems, it was 

605
00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:29,000
2017. 
I think dhara was already CEO, 

606
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,700
and it said there are at least 
five justice department 

607
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:37,400
investigations into Uber, which 
was certainly true, an Uber 

608
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,900
discloses, some of them later in
the s-1. 

609
00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:44,300
Yeah. 
And some of those never or at 

610
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:47,700
least to date, haven't produced 
anything real like even I think 

611
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:52,200
gray ball, you know, which was 
York Times sort of big ethics, 

612
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,700
candle and Uber, which I think, 
you know, is legitimately big 

613
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:58,200
deal, but that's no. 
Every there were three unethical

614
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,500
thing. 
Every unethical thing is not 

615
00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:02,800
something covered by the 
criminal codes. 

616
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,800
I think that's something the 
public and I think it's 

617
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,200
something. 
The media has done a bad job of 

618
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,500
explaining to the public is just
because something seems 

619
00:31:08,500 --> 00:31:11,400
unethical to us or something 
that we would not do does not 

620
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:17,800
mean that it lines up with some,
you know, USC number, right. 

621
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,900
And it doesn't mean it's going 
to end in charges, right? 

622
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:24,100
Then on the flip side, you know,
Ubers big that the hack, which 

623
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:26,700
may have been a bug Bounty 
program depending on where you 

624
00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:30,100
sit on that is one of the ones 
where, you know, Joe Sullivan 

625
00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:35,300
was, you know, Accused by, you 
know, by prosecutors. 

626
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:38,900
And I don't know where that one 
stands at the moment, but, but 

627
00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:42,200
you know, an Uber paid a huge 
settlement in that case. 

628
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,300
So there are these cases where 
they're big consequences years 

629
00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:47,000
later. 
I mean Lewandowski just got 

630
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:52,700
pardoned in 2020, Joe Sullivan, 
I think just got indicted in 

631
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:55,500
2020, so these things. 
So it's possible things are 

632
00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:58,700
still playing out and I 
personally this is sort of a 

633
00:31:58,708 --> 00:32:03,500
naive reporter view but I do 
think the legal system should 

634
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:05,900
exonerate people to. 
Like I think there should be 

635
00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:08,600
more of what they should admit 
that there's been a lot of 

636
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,800
public reporting on it and they 
should come out and say you 

637
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,900
know, we did look into this and 
we sort of we don't think 

638
00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:19,000
there's a case or even we think 
that they're innocent. 

639
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,400
Like I feel like just Just you 
know, online world where news 

640
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,500
travels so fast, I think the 
legal system should play some 

641
00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:26,700
part. 
In cleaning. 

642
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:32,300
Up the record I've wondered 
about to your point how being 

643
00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:36,800
online all of the time and the 
way that information both moves 

644
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,100
online and then morphs online, 
you know we have a lot of people

645
00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:42,800
like Tom who are just reading 
headlines and sharing 

646
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,500
information and I never The 
Headless when Twitter says had 

647
00:32:48,500 --> 00:32:52,700
you want to read the article 
first I'm like Like no no, fuck 

648
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:57,000
you for asking. 
Yeah, I don't I mean in the case

649
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,900
of Thera knows, I just think 
it's not. 

650
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:03,600
It's, you know, I just don't 
know how necessary, any of it is

651
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,500
to the reason the public was 
interested in this, which is 

652
00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:09,400
again, not that Betsy DeVos 
Rupert, Murdoch were defrauded, 

653
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,400
but that this person had a 
fabulous tale of a technology 

654
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,300
that didn't seem even close to 
happening. 

655
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,600
And it was sensationalized by 
the media, both in building it 

656
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,200
up, and then later and later 
taking it down. 

657
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,000
And I just, I'll be interested 
to see page views wise, how Much

658
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,900
people care about this trial 
because it's definitely there's 

659
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:32,600
a desire on the part of the 
media for it to be as juicy as 

660
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,100
it remained in its earliest days
and I just you know we'll see I 

661
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:39,200
go in for thymine is the think 
the edit. 

662
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,800
There's editorial discretion 
that's important. 

663
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,900
I do the I think there was a 
world in which sometimes and I'm

664
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:46,600
not there in. 
As you could argue, might not be

665
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,900
this but where there are stories
of great import where decisions 

666
00:33:50,900 --> 00:33:54,400
are made to put them on a 
homepage or to send them out? 

667
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,800
Um, you know a news alert on 
people's phones or to put them 

668
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,600
on the front page of a 
publication or the cover of 

669
00:34:00,608 --> 00:34:04,300
publication that the public 
doesn't care about and and yet 

670
00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:07,100
it's important to do so. 
And don't think that when the 

671
00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:13,100
Washington Post put out the 
Afghanistan papers a few years 

672
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:16,100
ago, right? 
I do wonder how many page views 

673
00:34:16,100 --> 00:34:17,900
those stories? 
Actually got. 

674
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:22,100
No, they were arguing and nobody
most important stories have 

675
00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:24,199
should take its cues from page 
views but I do think 

676
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:28,100
specifically Leon on Trials why 
I wanted to talk about? 

677
00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:32,500
Like, like the Ellen, Pao trial,
right is one where people 

678
00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:34,199
Silicon Valley covered it. 
Very closely. 

679
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,100
Now, that's maybe more of an 
Insider story than a public 

680
00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:40,100
awareness story. 
I don't know what the Hannah 

681
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:42,900
tration of of that story was to 
the public. 

682
00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:46,500
No, no, I mean, like it fit me 
because it was about sexism. 

683
00:34:46,699 --> 00:34:50,000
I think it probably touched on 
certain areas where people were 

684
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,900
talking about. 
Oh, this is what it's like to be

685
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:54,699
a woman successful woman and you
know, they probably crazy. 

686
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:57,000
It's over like her name it some.
I mean I thought that was an 

687
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,000
interesting trial for women. 
I think that was a general 

688
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,600
interest story. 
Yeah, I do. 

689
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,400
I mean, I'm not saying I think 
it was important. 

690
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,900
I think it was good, that it got
covered. 

691
00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:08,800
I just I don't know if 
empirically I'd be curious to 

692
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,900
see the date on it, but it to 
me. 

693
00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:16,200
What's interesting about that 
trial is just She lost but I 

694
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,200
think the public consensus sided
with her. 

695
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,200
I mean, certainly when I watch 
that try I felt like I took away

696
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:27,200
enough to think that Kleiner was
pretty inhospitable to women and

697
00:35:27,300 --> 00:35:31,600
Ellen Pao in particular whether 
or not that met whatever the 

698
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,400
legal standard of gender 
discrimination. 

699
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,300
Maybe the jury is better to 
position to assess that I am. 

700
00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:39,000
It is interesting case. 
I guess what I'm saying is that 

701
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,600
the coverage is set up to care 
about the verdict. 

702
00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:45,300
But in a certain A, I do think 
the coverage sort of plowed 

703
00:35:45,300 --> 00:35:49,300
through the verdict there and 
said that, it doesn't matter in 

704
00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:52,400
a certain way, or I'm curious. 
If you guys have takes on that, 

705
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,300
well, you know, I think that 
you're right and that in the 

706
00:35:57,300 --> 00:36:03,700
case of LM how that even though 
she lost her case, that there is

707
00:36:03,700 --> 00:36:06,800
a way in which the public felt 
that she was right. 

708
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:09,800
If nothing else there was a 
sense that she been wrong. 

709
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:14,800
I think another interesting 
example of this is Brett 

710
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,200
Kavanaugh confirmation hearing, 
you know, there he was confirmed

711
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:25,300
and despite that fact, there are
a lot of people United States 

712
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:29,300
who believe that Christine blasi
Ford was deeply wronged. 

713
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:33,200
Even though he was confirmed 
even though things went his way,

714
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:37,600
and then there are, of course. 
Also people like, you know, so, 

715
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,700
you know, there are also people 
who say that he was, he was 

716
00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:41,200
totally wronged as well, and all
of them. 

717
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:46,400
But, but but it's the The 
outcome is very separate from, 

718
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,800
you know, a certain segment of 
the Public's power of the trial 

719
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,400
as like a media device. 
Is that it's all metaphorical, 

720
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:54,700
right? 
It's, you know, you're able to 

721
00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:59,800
apply the stakes of the trial 
into larger social ills that you

722
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,200
are, you know, are being 
discussed and debated in the 

723
00:37:02,207 --> 00:37:04,100
background of, like the specific
crime here. 

724
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:07,000
And so like, in the case of not,
that was a trial. 

725
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,200
But, you know, like Brett 
Kavanaugh, this was an 

726
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,500
opportunity to talk about, you 
know, all of the ways that the 

727
00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:16,800
Republican party has Morphed 
into this kind of very base and 

728
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,000
you know, Trump's, you'll grab 
them by the pussy and all of 

729
00:37:20,008 --> 00:37:21,600
that stuff. 
You were able to kind of finally

730
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,900
have an opportunity to say this 
is what this come. 

731
00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:26,600
You know the this party stands 
for look at who they chose. 

732
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:27,800
The fact that they're willing to
Ram. 

733
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,900
This person through is deeply 
offensive to many people. 

734
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:38,200
There's a way in which that 
story was also used to play out 

735
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,200
a narrative around hysteria 
around me to write my reach. 

736
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,100
You know, trial, you know these 
sort of like unfair public 

737
00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:53,100
Trials of men who have been 
accused of sexual assault so 

738
00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:55,500
that did right there were all 
these columns. 

739
00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:58,000
You know, Kevin I should be a 
wake-up, call a chilling moment,

740
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,900
two men in America that you 
know, this could happen to you. 

741
00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:04,300
So you're right, it wasn't a 
trial by any means but certainly

742
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:08,300
the way that that those 
Congressional hearings played 

743
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:12,700
out the they allowed lots of 
different people 22. 

744
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,300
Use what was happening on 
television as a way to tell a 

745
00:38:17,308 --> 00:38:20,400
bigger Meredith narrative about 
Society, right? 

746
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,700
And, and which again, with 
Elizabeth Holmes, I just don't 

747
00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:26,300
know what that is, right? 
Other than she's a compelling 

748
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:27,700
character. 
Like, what are we supposed to 

749
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:31,100
draw from? 
Well, you know, they, you know, 

750
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,600
Silicon Valley is willingness to
turn a blind eye to problems and

751
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,500
there because it's it wants 
either, you know, you could say 

752
00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:42,700
because it wants to be 
Innovative and it desperately 

753
00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:44,500
wants to move sir. 
Society forward with these new 

754
00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:47,300
products that nobody else would 
ever take a risk on or because 

755
00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:51,000
it's just pure greed, whatever. 
The reason I think that's one 

756
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:55,000
sort of bigger narrative and 
then, like the way in which that

757
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,700
the media builds up women, and 
then tears them down. 

758
00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:00,400
I just, because I couldn't sleep
last night, I re-watched the 

759
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,200
framing Britney Spears, 
documentary. 

760
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:03,700
The New York Times Did, which is
awesome. 

761
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:08,300
It's good. 
And again, like it's so it's 

762
00:39:08,300 --> 00:39:12,300
really devastating to look back 
on how that works for her. 

763
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:18,700
How the me You know, the media 
made her in some ways but then 

764
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:20,900
certainly destroyed her in 
almost every way. 

765
00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:24,500
And so I think that's another 
another sort of bigger 

766
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,400
narrative. 
Well, I think one is one thing 

767
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,600
that I'm interested in and sort 
of how much do fraudulent 

768
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,200
Founders matter. 
Right. 

769
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:38,000
In one view, there's a degree to
which they get sort of washed up

770
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,500
in the vastness of the money, 
right. 

771
00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:43,200
The startup model is meant to 
deploy a bunch of capital and 

772
00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:46,400
Are you could almost say there's
something good about a world in 

773
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,800
which you can deploy so much 
Capital that like some of them 

774
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:52,400
are zeros and it doesn't disrupt
the system. 

775
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:55,300
I think that's not VCS, that's 
the VC line, right? 

776
00:39:55,300 --> 00:40:00,600
I think is interesting talking 
to Elliot Brown who co-wrote the

777
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,700
cult of? 
We the we workbook with a marine

778
00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:06,500
Farrell and he I asked him you 
know who's the victim right? 

779
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:09,100
And he said you know, the victim
is like the truth and I do think

780
00:40:09,100 --> 00:40:12,600
that's what reporters really 
feel like that that there are 

781
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,400
these cases. 
Specially when we feel this 

782
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,100
inevitable sense that we need to
put a story in the headlines 

783
00:40:17,300 --> 00:40:20,400
because it's big news. 
And so then we do it and then 

784
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,400
it's not true, obviously we feel
guilty and then part of our way 

785
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:27,200
to deal with that is probably to
overcorrect in the coverage on 

786
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,800
the downfall because we over, we
were too loud on the way up. 

787
00:40:30,900 --> 00:40:34,600
And so I do think there's a part
of what we're sorting through is

788
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,400
just Why? 
Why did we all believe it? 

789
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,200
Why was the public truth wrong 
for so long? 

790
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,100
And how can we avoid sort of 
having the public truth? 

791
00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:48,600
Be wrong for so long on the next
big business story? 

792
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:53,900
Well, that means speaks so much 
to how reporting Works sourcing 

793
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:56,700
Works. 
How competition between 

794
00:40:56,700 --> 00:41:00,700
reporters works, you know, so if
there's this week puts Adam 

795
00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:03,700
Newman on its cover and writes 
this like extraordinarily 

796
00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:08,900
entertaining glowing profile of 
the guy, you know, businessweek 

797
00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:11,900
will have access to him and he's
a font of information for things

798
00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:15,100
Beyond we work. 
And so other reporters are 

799
00:41:15,100 --> 00:41:18,000
incentivized to want access to 
that as well. 

800
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,200
I mean, I think that's part of 
the reality and to be the 

801
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,800
reporter who's like this guy is 
full of shit is very difficult, 

802
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:26,900
right? 
You know, that's why they're 

803
00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:29,400
sort of tipped a contagions 
mood, right? 

804
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,000
If you're a big publication, why
are they all positive or 

805
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,800
negative at the same time 
because their ability to get the

806
00:41:34,808 --> 00:41:37,500
sources? 
Depends on their relative 

807
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:40,200
positive or negative duty, but 
also the sources decision to 

808
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,200
want to talk to you. 
I think is this is like a 

809
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,700
reaction to the overly effusive 
press that a thing and gets. 

810
00:41:45,700 --> 00:41:47,400
You know, there's, there's a 
certain amount of jealousy. 

811
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,500
I mean, you know, there truly 
was a huge amount of like, 

812
00:41:51,500 --> 00:41:55,300
misleading and inaccurate, 
statements, and lying and fraud,

813
00:41:55,300 --> 00:41:56,800
whatever. 
When it comes to, we work. 

814
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,600
But the decision for people to 
want to speak out and, you know,

815
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,000
leaked to reporters like Elliot 
and Ellen. 

816
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,500
And all the people that wrote 
about Adam Newman was probably 

817
00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:05,900
due to the fact. 
They're just like this guy is 

818
00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:08,400
Fucking phony. 
Why is everybody writing so many

819
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,500
nice stories about him? 
You need to know what's really 

820
00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:12,600
going on. 
This is not a big story but when

821
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,500
I did my Munch tree take down 
like my source is went 

822
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:18,600
ballistic. 
When shervin was like during 

823
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,300
Passover, was like, this going 
to be a global business on TV or

824
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:24,000
whatever and they were like, 
we're in like, five cities in 

825
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,800
the United States and it is sort
of just like people suffer from 

826
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,900
just like the reality to start 
at some level just watching like

827
00:42:31,900 --> 00:42:35,900
these untrue, he's become so 
huge in the Press. 

828
00:42:36,100 --> 00:42:39,300
At some point people come out 
and say like let's let's correct

829
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:40,800
this. 
And so I do think yeah. 

830
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,600
Bluster. 
Thankfully and The Human 

831
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,600
Experience has its counter and 
people who just like can't 

832
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,100
stomach, you know rights and 
that's the corrective. 

833
00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:51,600
But it's funny back to the 
investor side of things. 

834
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,600
I remember when read Albert 
Gotti was writing the story 

835
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,800
about magically at the 
information and, you know, he 

836
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,300
was just uncovering more and 
more about how far off they 

837
00:43:01,300 --> 00:43:03,500
were, they were in their Tech 
and how, you know, the augmented

838
00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:04,700
real. 
They were promising was just 

839
00:43:04,700 --> 00:43:08,500
complete vapor. 
And he was telling me like I 

840
00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:12,000
think investors like to be 
scammed really like I think they

841
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,000
like sort of having someone come
in there and do the whole show 

842
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,500
in front of them. 
Even though they probably know 

843
00:43:16,508 --> 00:43:18,700
in the back of their minds and 
they're not going to make this 

844
00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:23,600
work and I don't think that you 
can tell a good story and they 

845
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,300
feel like they're smart enough 
to see the limits of it and feel

846
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:31,000
like, oh, there's and get more. 
Yeah, I do. 

847
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,900
Otherwise I'm trying to make 
your say, I like the idea of I 

848
00:43:33,908 --> 00:43:36,600
know or that it's just like it's
just like Payment for them 

849
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:37,600
though. 
Like, they're just bored people 

850
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:39,800
with like too much LP money 
flowing through them. 

851
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:41,600
They're like, well, this will be
kind of fun for a bit. 

852
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,700
I can just help like make this 
company grow even though we're 

853
00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:47,300
only a bovitz is like, you know,
the music man. 

854
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:50,200
Well I made this argument or to 
feel like they can guide the 

855
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,800
company to an exit before 
everybody. 

856
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,700
Yeah, well, that's sort of like 
liking that's like the jet story

857
00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:00,800
in certain ways. 
I mean, I wrote about, we work, 

858
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,300
you know, there's a degree to, 
which Benchmark was perfectly 

859
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:05,600
rational. 
I mean, this is a small amount 

860
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,300
of money. 
Lie in a super charismatic guy 

861
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,800
and he did, raise it super high 
valuations and you know it 

862
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:15,200
there's a degree to which like, 
if somebody is a showman who can

863
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,300
keep bringing money in, even if 
it's sort of a disastrous 

864
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:20,100
business, he can get it to a big
enough. 

865
00:44:20,100 --> 00:44:24,900
Valuation did Benjamin's 
consummately lose any money on 

866
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:27,600
we work, not mean, I'm I don't 
think so. 

867
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,700
I mean, if at the end of the day
benchmarks investment, we need 

868
00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:34,500
valuation that they could have 
realized that they didn't, you 

869
00:44:34,508 --> 00:44:37,500
know, like there was promise of 
it. we're right, but at the end 

870
00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:40,300
of the become, a positive 
Benchmark comes out, net 

871
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:47,600
positive, then they weren't 
stands for Yeah, we just like a 

872
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:52,200
very that, some part of the cold
logic of investing, right, 

873
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:52,900
right. 
Which is why. 

874
00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:56,400
I mean, maybe to finish up here 
like what was interesting about 

875
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,500
the, you know, the reaction to 
Elizabeth Holmes from a lot of 

876
00:44:58,500 --> 00:45:01,500
people in Tech was reflexively 
saying, hey, there weren't that 

877
00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:04,800
many VCS that invested in this 
company, right? 

878
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,800
I mean, there were some Angel 
investments from like Adam 

879
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,300
Draper and maybe Steve jurvetson
or someone like that. 

880
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,600
But by and large the big-name 
funds, even the smaller funds 

881
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,000
didn't put money in. 
I mean, the true People that 

882
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,200
were scanned were like we've 
mentioned a million times now, 

883
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:23,600
like Betsy DeVos and like, kind 
of old Executives at like 

884
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:29,300
Walgreens and Safeway or things 
like that is too much Graver. 

885
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,600
I don't you said Adam. 
I doesn't matter if I'm sorry. 

886
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:32,900
I didn't get something, I'll let
it that out. 

887
00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:33,700
No, you're right. 
Yeah. 

888
00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:35,900
Someone who's like no filed 
Adam, I'm like, they're just 

889
00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:39,200
right, sorry, wrong wrong. 
Yeah, wrong Draper, the money 

890
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:44,100
Draper, not the pale Sun Draper?
But yeah, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 

891
00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:49,500
Yeah, there's a good thing to 
do. 

892
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:50,700
Yeah, it's gone. 
It's gone. 

893
00:45:50,700 --> 00:46:04,200
I know is that I'm an idiot, but
I think that, what about just 

894
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,100
really lessons call him right? 
Yeah, yeah. 

895
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:08,600
And I think she made a strong 
case and you mentioned it in 

896
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:13,400
your column, which was that even
if there wasn't VC money in the 

897
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,100
company to the degree that you 
see in all these other ones, she

898
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,600
The product of the culture. 
She was embraced, very 

899
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,000
wholeheartedly by The Tech 
Community. 

900
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,100
Well, I remember when Jessica 
lessin also wrote a story 

901
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,100
column, the First Column after 
the Wall Street Journal stories 

902
00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:31,500
about theranos came out and we 
had a comment from a tech 

903
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:32,800
executive and want to say the 
name. 

904
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,900
Who wrote that, you know, he 
thought this was a smear, an 

905
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:40,500
absolute smear campaign from Big
Pharma trying to destroy our 

906
00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:41,700
big. 
You know, try to destroy. 

907
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:44,400
And we as Millennials need to 
stand up for it and it was like,

908
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,100
yeah, no, I'm pretty sure there 
are no. 

909
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:47,800
Might actually not be on the up 
and up. 

910
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:53,700
Yeah, there is that it was a 
hilarious argue with him didn't 

911
00:46:53,700 --> 00:47:08,700
I. 
But but yeah I think there's no 

912
00:47:08,700 --> 00:47:11,000
question at this point. 
It's a very strong case that she

913
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,300
is an avatar of, you know, 
everything that text stands for 

914
00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:16,100
whether or not she got the 
money. 

915
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,300
Money and, you know, I don't 
think Tech won't survive a 

916
00:47:20,308 --> 00:47:22,000
guilty verdict or anything like 
that. 

917
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,000
But there's no question that 
this is at least an opportunity 

918
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,100
for the public to sort of say, 
yeah. 

919
00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:30,000
Those guys out there that seem 
to be raising all this money and

920
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,500
promising. 
All these great things like when

921
00:47:31,500 --> 00:47:34,200
it doesn't go well there should 
be some sort of consequence for 

922
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,300
Cool. 
Katie leave, totally. 

923
00:47:37,300 --> 00:47:38,900
I don't know. 
I don't know. 

924
00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:40,400
We kind of went over. 
I mean Katie said. 

925
00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:43,500
So how so maybe it maybe the 
woman she was arguing with 

926
00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:46,300
before followed her into into 
the just with her. 

927
00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:47,800
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

928
00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:51,200
Hopefully out of girl boss for 
Securities confiscate your 

929
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:52,700
laptop. 
She can, you know, send the 

930
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:54,900
audacity file out before she 
gets caught. 

931
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,000
Yeah, cool. 
Well, this is our, we're 

932
00:47:58,300 --> 00:48:02,200
experimenting with form on dead 
cat were curious. 

933
00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:05,200
Always happy to hear feedback 
from people. 

934
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,700
You can always Always. 
DM us on Twitter. 

935
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,900
I'm Eric at newcomer dotco and 
yeah we're excited just to keep 

936
00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:16,100
exploring what this show is and 
sort of having guests. 

937
00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:19,500
And we're all open to guests 
ideas and keep listening. 

938
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,900
Stop complaining about our audio
quality working on that and poor

939
00:48:24,900 --> 00:48:29,300
Tom has to edit all this. 
Yeah, it is a labor of love. 

940
00:48:30,300 --> 00:48:32,800
If you have ideas for future 
episodes or people that I don't 

941
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:34,400
know, you think should leave the
show. 

942
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,400
Let us let us know, all right. 
Katie, we're just looking at a 

943
00:48:39,408 --> 00:48:45,000
face unzoom so really will let 
you know, I next episode with 

944
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,600
what happened to her on behalf 
of Katie better, Eric newcomer 

945
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,000
and Tom. 
Thanks for listening. 

946
00:48:52,300 --> 00:49:02,000
So work on Sally, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

947
00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:03,400
Goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

948
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,100
Goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye.