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Welcome, silicon Sally. 
All right, we're here with dead 

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cat. 
This is Eric newcomer, Tom and 

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Katie are here, and we have 
fellow sub, stacker Casey Newton

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of platformer. 
We're gonna sort of just fun 

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episode talk about a couple 
different things. 

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Interesting piece in the new At 
times about sub stack failing to

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raise funding, which Casey is 
written about snaps stock is 

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down, 45%, in the last month, 
another interesting happening in

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the sort of social world. 
And then I feels like we haven't

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talked about Elon Musk on this 
podcast. 

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Another nice, you know, we 
thought about other things, even

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though that is the dominant 
story and rating, some dips, 

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their PCS also got right. 
You got to do Ilan again. 

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Casey welcome, thanks. 
Thanks for coming, on to the 

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show. 
Thanks for having me gang. 

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How are all things that? 
How are things in platformer 

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World these days since we're 
going right into sub stack? 

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What's, what's the latest from 
the platformer? 

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Which I don't read, by the way. 
Thank you. 

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But my understanding is that 
it's like some sort of French 

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language newsletter. 
That covers like Algerian 

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startups doesn't basically it 
you guys broke the big news 

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about flanking cajuste. 
Okay yeah if you want all the 

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latest on sort of The Tick-Tock 
behind the Flint. 

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Could you deal go to platformer 
dot news and subscribe things 

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are going really well. 
Platformer like I truly do wish 

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I could go back and talk to the 
version of myself that was 

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thinking about leaving my job 
and starting a sub stack and 

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just explaining like here's 
everything that's going to 

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happen after you do this and it 
would have made the decision, a 

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lot easier. 
So very happy to be doing this 

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independent thing. 
Well, I can't remember talking 

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to that version of you is I 
called I forget if I You know, 

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we got no phone Casey out 
because you had your newsletter 

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The Verge and I, you know, I was
a Bloomberg and so I got on the 

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phone with Casey and honestly I 
had no idea. 

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He was about to start platformer
though, it made sense. 

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And I was like, oh yeah, I think
I'm gonna quit my job in like, 

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start a sub stack. 
Like, do you think that's crazy 

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in case? 
He's like Icy Hot. 

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I'm sure. 
I feel like they're pretty 

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different both, right? 
About tech broadly, but I'm very

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money-oriented, you're very 
platform oriented we have sort 

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of are different enough spins 
that we don't feel like 

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competition. 
But we also have names worth, 

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ER, yes. 
Casey, do you feel competitive 

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with Eric? 
Like tell us that she's dumb. 

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Yeah. 
And so the whole reason I came 

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on this podcast is, I want 
people to hear my voice. 

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Products. 
This is doing the upright, need 

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to run the disinviting 
competition on. 

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We need your in the sort of New 
York Times style daily. 

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Add, you know, the daily is 
free. 

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But what really pays for this is
if you subscribe, so subscribe 

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to newcomer and then if you're 
already a subscriber newcomer 

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you can subscribe to platformer.
Yeah. 

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So Katie and I are collecting 
nothing from this. 

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I thought that out there now it 
is I mean, just like be a little

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bit serious about this. 
Yeah, I grew up reading the LA 

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Times had a lot of really great 
columnist there and I just 

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basically lucked out that I 
lived in an area that the LA 

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Times Like delivery trucks 
reached. 

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And as a result I got access to 
these great columnist. 

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They're all these people. 
Now the you know, particularly 

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now that the newspaper industry 
is going through such a hard 

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time, the don't have access to 
those people but we have the 

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internet and so you can just 
find the columnist that is right

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for you and you pay them what I 
think is a pretty reasonable Low

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monthly rate and you keep a 
columnist that you love and 

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business. 
So like I just love that that 

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model of the world that we're 
living in, and then the people 

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who are really good at it, are 
like able to live lives beyond 

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their wildest dreams now, does 
it sad and you though that this 

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might be gutting? 
Your beloved LA Times it? 

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Yes. 
I know I'm very sad about, you 

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know, what's happening to 
newspapers. 

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I also as somebody who worked in
newspapers for the first 10 

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years of my career was 
Frustrated by how slowly they 

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were evolving, right? 
Even though the writing was on 

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the wall, you know, some 
Publications. 

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Like the New York Times in 
particular, I would say, Adam 

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incredible job of remaking 
themselves and, you know, more 

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recently Publications like the 
Washington Post, I think have 

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really kind of risen to the 
challenge. 

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So I think you can do it but 
it's a lot easier for the big 

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national International 
Publications to do it than the 

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local pubs about. 
And is it really zero-sum? 

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Like Katie? 
I feel like that's sort of the 

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media old newspaper sort of 
framed you You see this? 

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Like do you think really like a 
dollar going to a sub? 

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Sack writer is a dollar loss to 
to a newspaper. 

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Something that's how I would 
formulated. 

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I was just saying that the idea 
of people getting news from 

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places other than traditional 
media, right? 

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And at large siphons away, well 
on the local newspaper, look at 

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everything that the thing that 
sustained them for the longest 

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time was the sports section, 
right? 

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Like that was, you know, people 
had a relationship to the beat 

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writer for the teams that they 
followed and the columnist 

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there. 
And then there was that awful 

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period. 
For the athletic, when they were

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on their way up and the CEO. 
Alex Mather said, fairy 

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inelegantly to the New York 
Times, you know, our goal is to 

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bleed all of the local sports, 
you know like all the local 

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papers from their Sports 
sections, right. 

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At least he's like believes will
go like they're trying the New 

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York Times about the athletic. 
Yeah. 

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How did nobody like make that 
connection when that whole deal 

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was going down? 
It was hysterical. 

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I mean and I like Alex a lot but
like it was like this bull 

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moment of like, well I guess you
didn't believe the right 

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personality to frame the news. 
Which is really a, not news 

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story, The New York Times, Ben 
Mullen reported that, you know, 

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subset had been out trying to 
defend Muslims and already 

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making waves of the times 
they're media reporter. 

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Yeah. 
And the you know they've been 

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trying to get valued at 750 
million to a billion and the 

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round and come together that 
they had Revenue about 9 million

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in 2021. 
And you know, I think important 

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contacts for this is increase in
Horowitz as Invest in both sub s

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clubhouse, right? 
And Clubhouse which has like no 

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Revenue, raised it, a four 
billion dollar valuation was 

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extremely Buzzy and sub stack is
sort of been sort of I don't 

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know. 
Ugly stepchild I'm sure they'd 

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hate that but you know just 
isn't as glamorous hasn't got 

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the attention but I mean 
subjects producing revenue and 

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has seems to have more staying 
power than Clubhouse. 

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Anyway so Casey is written about
this. 

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He is relieved. 
Maybe that Sack didn't didn't 

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get the money. 
So Casey what sort of your 

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argument there? 
Yeah. 

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I mean you know, we've all read 
the stories about startups that 

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raise too much money and 
investors hopes got too high and

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then the investors started to 
metal and gave them a bunch of 

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horrible ideas for what they 
should do next. 

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And that almost always comes at 
the expense of the the user 

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base, right? 
And you know earlier this year 

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sub stack released an app by 
default that app turned off 

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email notifications. 
So like if you downloaded the 

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sub stack app, you would know 
Her got platformer in your 

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inbox. 
The whole reason I wanted to do 

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this line of work, was I had 
this direct connection with my 

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audience. 
You could already see that 

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potentially going away after, 
you know, I and others wrote 

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about this sub stack. 
Wound up walking that back, they

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just a match. 
Stripe people who got the out 

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from email, which was insane. 
Like, I agree, but they reverse 

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course, but you can imagine. 
You can imagine a world where 

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they were suddenly, you know, 
they had an extra hundred 

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million dollars of venture 
capital and two years go by and 

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their investors are getting 
really nervous and they say, you

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know what, actually I think it's
time for us to take 20% of your 

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revenues or like whatever. 
It's so I think that like, 

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they're still in this and all of
a sudden then platformer is 

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writing on another platform, you
know, instead of an email that 

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that's the risk, right? 
You know, I'm actually think 

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that over the years subjects had
percent cut has come to look 

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more and more reasonable 
compared to what other people 

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take wishing is maybe something 
we could talk about. 

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But, you know, basically, I'm 
relieved that they Raise this 

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money because I think they have 
sought some basic structural 

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questions to ask themselves 
about what they're doing to get 

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the combat kind of core model 
working, and I don't think you 

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need another hundred million 
dollars to do it, right. 

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Like, they need to figure out 
how to live within their means 

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and, and really figure out how 
to grow that base of users and 

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get themselves to like 
sustainability. 

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I strenuously disagree with, you
know, I mean, it feels like for 

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once the media business had a 
chance to have blitzscaling at 

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its back and then we don't even 
Even, we don't get the money. 

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I mean, I mean, what how, what 
would they do to blitzscale? 

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They would just go out and pay 
like 5,000 more people. 

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A hundred thousand dollars to 
see if they would turn into, 

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right? 
Well, let me see, did she was in

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the? 
I didn't read the full story but

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what was the as is my signature 
on this show? 

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But what was the plan with the 
money? 

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I mean, what did they sort of 
see as the value? 

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And I don't know that that was 
reported. 

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I do I think a key point is that
sub stack has said that they're 

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toning down their sub stack Pro 
program. 

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Their VP of comms was on a 
Twitter spaces with me. 

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And she, she said that, and I 
think that's interesting because

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I was really, I mean, I didn't I
didn't get money from them, they

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offered me like a weird small 
loan. 

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That was definitely not like a 
sign of strong, belief and 

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newcomer. 
But, you know, I think it's sort

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of incentivizes, you know, sub 
Stacks that don't have sort of 

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business front center to start 
and then potentially not 

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succeed. 
But but to answer the question 

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of how I'd like money to be 
spent to, To build ways for them

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to drive audience, which is the 
thing that they haven't haven't 

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done really. 
Yeah. 

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So you know you can work out a 
couple interesting numbers based

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on what we know about sub stack 
so they just passed a million 

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paid subscribers in November, I 
believe. 

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And we now know, according to 
Ben and Ben's reporting that 

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they had about nine million 
dollars in Revenue. 

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So 9 million in Revenue, I mean 
just back-of-the-envelope that 

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assuming 5 million of that is 
coming from Barry Weiss. 

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Maybe two million is coming 
from, like the bundle of 

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newcomer platformer Glenn 
Greenwald a Matt Taibbi. 

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The rest is probably Alex 
Berenson is that mostly the 

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revenue breakdown. 
They have they have more 

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Publications make making more 
money than I that I think people

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like Ken and your own evening 
Barry White's. 

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Barry Weiss is number 6. 
I just don't want to unfairly 

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compliment her because letters 
from an American Kevin and 

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Heather Cox Richardson is one on
politics. 

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The dispatches to Matt Taibbi, 
these three the bulwarks for 

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Glenn greenwald's five and she's
six. 

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Anyway, just fact check there. 
But if you look at the numbers, 

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what that means is that most 
people who subscribe to a public

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subset publication or only 
subscribing to 1, right? 

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Because most of these things are
somewhere in the like 70 to 100 

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bucks a year range. 
But you know, it's subsets whole

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eating. 
One of their big promises is you

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come be a part of this network 
and we're going to make it so 

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easy for you to get customers 
because they will likely already

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be a customer of another sub 
stack. 

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From there, it's just a couple 
of TAPS and all of a sudden, you

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know, we charge their credit 
card for yours as well, you 

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know, and they even will show 
you like a graph of where your 

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people come from and, you know, 
to hear sub-sect elat. 

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There's suddenly a lot of like, 
existing subset customers but 

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wait a minute, by the way, maybe
they are, you know, like, I'm 

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not saying that I doubt them, 
but it doesn't seem like most 

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people are having that 
experience and they do think 

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it's like a long-term risk to 
them. 

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Hmm. 
What I mean, we've sort of seen 

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this particular game play out so
many times in the media of 

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building up a subscriber base. 
And everyone's looking for the 

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00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:57,900
next wave Going to help you grow
the business. 

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And the obvious one is just 
bundling, right? 

235
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It's all the same Playbook and 
I'm assuming you're talking 

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about growing audience growing 
subscriber base, that's clearly 

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going to be on the table. 
They're going to try to bundle 

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you guys with with other people 
of similar topics or maybe even 

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have like a diverse bundle. 
So you skeptical, I don't think 

240
00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:17,800
it's a great idea to be honest. 
I think it's a way to juice 

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numbers without juicing Revenue.
A key. 

242
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A key feature that they've 
rolled out is recommendations 

243
00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:28,500
where instead of Sort of viral 
algorithm writers can recommend 

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other writers and that's been 
driving a bunch of subscribers 

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00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,400
to people including myself as a 
great, great organic feature 

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where Riders can decide what 
they want to do. 

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That's like sort of more like on
the right hand side of the page.

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I have the blog's I think too 
long which was kind of like the 

249
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,700
pre it's sort of like it's 
Preparing People psychologically

250
00:12:53,700 --> 00:12:58,200
for bundling Well, yeah, because
think about how this has played 

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out with cable right there was 
cable. 

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Everybody hated it. 
Like, why do I have to have all 

253
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this garbage just to get you 
some pain? 

254
00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:08,100
And then there was like Netflix 
and Paramount plus and Amazon 

255
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video and then people woke up 
one day and they're like, I'm 

256
00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:15,400
paying, wow, hundreds of dollars
a month for all these individual

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stripping networks, and that has
to come to an end at some point.

258
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And so how that comes to an end,
and how it shakes out is still 

259
00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:24,800
being worked out. 
And I think that for direct to 

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00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,300
consumer News. 
It's sort of a similar idea. 

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So if I'm paying $150 for 
newcomer and Casey whatever case

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00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,300
he's charging me $100, it's an 
insane bargain I probably giving

263
00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:41,600
anything away, it's 33 percent 
off the newcomer price and so I 

264
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,000
haven't I'm helping people so 
you got money like I am 

265
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:49,100
publishing decks from billion 
dollars that's $250, just 

266
00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:53,400
between the two of you, it's 
$250 that's my retirement 

267
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,500
account and every company case 
he writes about And say that I 

268
00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:59,000
also want to pay Heather Cox 
Richardson and I also want to 

269
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,400
pay you know, Matt Taibbi 
suddenly I'm like why am I 

270
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:07,300
paying a thousand dollars a year
for news but like Casey said, 

271
00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:11,900
most I not could I not just pay 
less money and subscribe to the 

272
00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:14,400
Wall Street Journal? 
I mean, so that's sort of where 

273
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,000
you cut what you come to which 
is why bundling feels like the 

274
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,900
natural certainly comes from the
New York Times Reporter. 

275
00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:22,800
It's where it's gonna, I mean, 
it's coming guys. 

276
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,300
There's there's zero chance to 
my mind that that sub-sector. 

277
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,100
I think what you're under it 
under estimating, is the idea 

278
00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:32,300
that like Niche audiences, like,
how would I can make more money 

279
00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:34,400
off that like I have a 
sustainable business now, making

280
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,000
more than I make it Bloomberg, I
feel like sure. 

281
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,800
You guys are my friend media 
people. 

282
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,200
Subscribe to a lot of 
newsletters because you need to 

283
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,400
be stay up on media, but I think
you guys are the sort of outlier

284
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,800
cases and subscription Behavior.
Most of the people subscribing 

285
00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,100
to newcomer, you know. 
Yeah. 

286
00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:52,300
I published some exclusive 
financial information that they 

287
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:55,300
want to read and they sign up to
see that. 

288
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,000
Like they're very they're there 
in sort of the VC world, you 

289
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,400
know they're interested in. 
So I just I don't think they're 

290
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,900
like subscribing a newcomer 
because they're like these 

291
00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:09,600
general consumers who want want 
some very sophisticated VC sake 

292
00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:13,500
that I think that you that it's 
probably a good idea and you and

293
00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,800
Casey obviously know this better
than I do to think about the 

294
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,500
financial fortunes of the folks 
were writing for sub stack 

295
00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:23,100
versus the financial fortunes of
sub stack as a company. 

296
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:25,100
Sure. 
So it's true that you two might 

297
00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:28,300
be Quite well, but how a sub 
stack doing overall? 

298
00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:30,200
And I think that that's where 
the decision-making around 

299
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,300
something like, bundling comes 
into play less. 

300
00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:36,500
So than how you work, a Seer 
personally doing, and the 

301
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:41,800
bundling aspect might not be for
you, but if there are say, you 

302
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,600
could guess hundreds of people 
on sub stack writing about their

303
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,400
Grandma's favorite recipes, 
wouldn't it make sense to put 

304
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,400
all those grandmas together with
all their delicious recipes? 

305
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,100
Yes. 
So, I actually made the example 

306
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:56,700
that we were talking about this.
In my Discord server this 

307
00:15:56,700 --> 00:16:00,000
morning and food writers was the
example that I use. 

308
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,000
So what I like to see subset 
consider is to offer, 

309
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,900
essentially optional bundling 
tools, so that if you are a 

310
00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:10,700
recipe writer, a food, writer 
with a relatively small 

311
00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:13,800
following you want to go in with
9 or 10 or 12 other people that 

312
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,700
are doing the same thing, help 
each other grow. 

313
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:20,400
You might actually, sort of come
out ahead and all of that. 

314
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,300
And at the very least, I like if
I were sub-sect, that's where I 

315
00:16:23,308 --> 00:16:25,300
would start because, right, 
because if they come out, 

316
00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:27,900
Tomorrow, and they say, we're 
introducing a Netflix model, and

317
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:29,600
it's like all you can eat for 
ten bucks a month. 

318
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,500
You know, people like me and 
Eric Garner going to run 

319
00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:33,300
screaming from that would 
destroy our business. 

320
00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:35,600
Yeah, right. 
And remember Apple tried that 

321
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,500
with their news? 
Bundle with Apple news and they 

322
00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:40,900
couldn't get almost any 
Publications to sign on board 

323
00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:43,000
with that. 
I think just the LA Times And 

324
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,800
The Wall Street Journal, but it 
was a fiasco. 

325
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,900
They couldn't get the other 
big-name pubs that they would 

326
00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:48,900
have wanted. 
But the interesting thing about,

327
00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:52,700
you know, this bundle of Niche 
products is that in television, 

328
00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:55,700
it doesn't work. 
I mean like the bundle Model 

329
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:59,100
only works because ESPN is the 
most popular cable channel in 

330
00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:02,500
the country, and it charges 
significantly more than any 

331
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:06,500
other network to the cable 
Distributors, and they kind of 

332
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:08,099
keep the whole business of 
float, right? 

333
00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:10,599
It's like you want ESPN and 
we're going to bundle everything

334
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,099
else in there and it's part of 
the kind of hard-ass 

335
00:17:13,099 --> 00:17:15,099
negotiations that the media 
companies have. 

336
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,900
And, you know, with the like 
different skinny bundles which 

337
00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:21,400
was a whole failed model there 
were attempts to make you known 

338
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,900
on ESPN bundles. 
There is this company still out 

339
00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:27,800
there called Philo It was, you 
know, they would pejoratively 

340
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,800
refer to it as the loser bundle 
because it just had a MC. 

341
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,600
And, you know, HGTV and all the 
discovery. 

342
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,800
Other networks viewers were 
losers or the comp. 

343
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,600
Well, I'm not, I'm not casting 
judgment myself as to who was 

344
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,100
the real issue for him but but, 
yeah. 

345
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:45,400
And so, I mean, it's one of 
those rare things where 

346
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,900
everybody knows is, that's yeah,
that happens. 

347
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:51,700
So often in media. 
But but yeah, I mean, I think 

348
00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:54,100
the trouble with the idea, I 
love the idea of what you're 

349
00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:55,300
proposing, Casey and it 
obviously. 

350
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,800
You see is like, you know, 
helping to Rising tide lifting 

351
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,800
the weaker boats. 
I don't know. 

352
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,100
And kind of like a much more 
organic way to do customer 

353
00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:05,100
acquisition. 
Yeah, but it's just there's no 

354
00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:07,400
history of it working and that's
enough. 

355
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,700
I will say though, slightly 
related, if somebody offered me 

356
00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:15,200
a channel and don't care how it 
came to me, streaming whatnot, 

357
00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:19,100
that was only like murder shows.
I'd be very excited. 

358
00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:23,300
True Crime shows, if I could get
NCIS Law and Order like CSI, 

359
00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:27,000
Etc. 
All in one Panel how much, how 

360
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,400
much money do I have? 
I think all those shows are on 

361
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:35,400
CBS the ultimate, but what about
like that shudder? 

362
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,100
Like, I mean, shutter is a 
streaming service? 

363
00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:39,400
That's just horror movies, 
right? 

364
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,300
It's probably not like a massive
success but I don't know it's a 

365
00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:43,900
business. 
Yeah, it's okay. 

366
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:46,800
It's part of AMC, but but I say,
I guess, the reason I bring it 

367
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,200
up to you guys is that like it 
would be a little bit strange to

368
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,900
bundle newcomer with Grandma 
cooking blogs or or you know 

369
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:58,800
platformer with Auto blogs or 
something, but they kind of need

370
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,500
those anchor Publications in 
there to kind of prove larger 

371
00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:06,200
value and I think that's where 
the negotiation happens maybe 

372
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,800
eventually they will go to like 
the very biggest sub stacks and 

373
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,500
just offer them a great deal and
say, you know, you're making a 

374
00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:14,400
million will pay you a million 
and a half. 

375
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,700
If you're part of this bundle, 
you know, because we know you 

376
00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:19,500
probably wouldn't make that as 
part of the bundle just by the 

377
00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:21,000
basic math. 
But, you know, we want to 

378
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,600
incentivize more people 
subscribing, like, I could see 

379
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,600
them doing that. 
But, you know, We've been 

380
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,900
talking about this from the 
subset perspective, which is 

381
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:30,100
good and fine, but you think 
about it from The Writer's 

382
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:32,300
perspective. 
It's like they also just have a 

383
00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:35,600
bunch of writers on their 
platform now who could leave and

384
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,500
just do this sustainably forever
and it's not clear that you 

385
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:41,800
actually need a sub stack to 
keep the business going right? 

386
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,500
Like you know journalists are so
cynical and pessimistic about 

387
00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:49,800
every business model that I 
think they a memory of under a 

388
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,500
now. 
I see it that I'm gonna just Tom

389
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:55,200
just uh they underestimate what 
a great. 

390
00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:57,800
Job, this can be right. 
You think about how big the 

391
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,200
internet is? 
If you can find two thousand 

392
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,200
people to pay you a hundred 
bucks a year, you're making more

393
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,600
money than almost any Media 
Company would pay you for any 

394
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,500
reason. 
There's a lot of groups of two 

395
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:10,100
thousand people on the internet.
So, like to me the really 

396
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:12,700
exciting thing here is, you 
know, I hope substract is, it 

397
00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:15,800
has a long successful run, you 
know, I have no plans to leave 

398
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,300
it. 
It would be inconvenient to do 

399
00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:18,800
so. 
But like, also, I'm not 

400
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,600
terrified about them going out 
of business because to me the 

401
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,200
model works, like I found my few
thousand people and I can just 

402
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,800
do As long as I want to and we 
have a direct relationship with 

403
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,300
stripe. 
I mean, part of the reason sub 

404
00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,500
stack has been able to recruit. 
Everyone has been the fact that 

405
00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:34,800
you can leave II. 
Don't think they would do a 

406
00:20:34,808 --> 00:20:37,700
bundle that would infuriate 
writers. 

407
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:41,000
I think they would have to do it
in a sort of additive way and I 

408
00:20:41,008 --> 00:20:43,800
want to talk about other things,
but I do think the long tail 

409
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,400
issue is going to be a problem 
for sub stack. 

410
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,500
If I had to make my business 
case against them, I think you 

411
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:53,800
know in anything you know, 
influencer economy, sort of 

412
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,700
celebrities win and That's the 
top sort of get sort of really, 

413
00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:01,900
really rich and everybody else 
is sort of screwed. 

414
00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:05,400
I mean I feel like I'm sort of I
mean we're you can analyze like 

415
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,100
the sub stack lists and sort of 
see and I do think there's a 

416
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:16,400
sharp drop off you know from 1 2
3 4 5 and then by 10 it's 

417
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,100
probably much lower and so if 
they can't get the long tail to 

418
00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:24,000
make good money then they'll 
have less fewer sort of new sub 

419
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,900
sex coming in. 
The shot at being sort of the 

420
00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:29,500
celebrity writer or I don't 
know, Casey, what's your view on

421
00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:30,800
that small. 
So let's talk about the long 

422
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,800
tail. 
The number one sub stack. 

423
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,500
Publication is a guy that writes
about how to manage your career 

424
00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:39,600
as an engineer. 
Basically, if you pitch is that 

425
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,700
Homer one overall. 
Yeah. 

426
00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:43,600
I'll technology contact. 
Yeah. 

427
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,900
And so if you were to pitch that
column to any mainstream, 

428
00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:49,200
publication that said that's way
too nitzsche get out of here. 

429
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,500
Our readers would hate it and 
this guy's this guy's easily 

430
00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:55,200
pragmatic engine 450, 500 
thousand bucks a year, right? 

431
00:21:55,500 --> 00:22:00,600
So if there are more niches like
that, then I think the long tail

432
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,000
is actually going to be really 
successful. 

433
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,300
Now you know we could talk about
the characteristics that these 

434
00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:07,900
really successful businesses. 
Have they write for rich people,

435
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:10,300
continuing education for rich 
people. 

436
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:13,100
They tend to be something that 
you can expense, right? 

437
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:15,800
They tend to be something that 
helps you make more money. 

438
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,500
So look not, you know if you're 
if you want to write a poetry 

439
00:22:18,500 --> 00:22:22,900
diary it's probably not going to
succeed to the same degree but I

440
00:22:22,908 --> 00:22:25,100
think it's much more productive 
to think about this in terms of 

441
00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:28,300
like What sorts of Publications 
could work and who, you know, 

442
00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:30,300
who is the person that could 
write the publication? 

443
00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:32,000
And at that, I think you'd have 
a bunch more people. 

444
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,800
Make him half a million bucks. 
Here, I one thing that I really 

445
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,200
liked about this part of the 
conversation is that it shows 

446
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,400
that you can be really 
successful in an online platform

447
00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:45,000
where you have a broad audience 
for anybody can access you 

448
00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:49,200
without being sensationalist and
insane person fighting with 

449
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,600
people and just being generally 
wretched. 

450
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,100
Aka the Twitter model. 
Where is he instead? 

451
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,800
It's like, use, if you just want
to nerd out with a bunch of 

452
00:22:57,808 --> 00:23:00,900
people who have your general 
nerdy interest, that's great. 

453
00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:03,900
And actually, I don't know that 
a poetry version wouldn't be 

454
00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:06,000
successful because there's a 
part of me that's like, well, if

455
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,400
it were Edna st. 
Vincent Millay. 

456
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,500
Maybe I would give them a little
bit of money, but that's so 

457
00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:12,200
great. 
That makes me so happy. 

458
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,100
And one of the biggest viral 
hits on sub stack of the year 

459
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:19,900
has been someone who's just 
sending out chapters of Dracula?

460
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,100
Like, I don't know, if it's 
want, like, a couple times a 

461
00:23:22,108 --> 00:23:24,900
week or every day, but it's 
become a huge Tumblr meme, 

462
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,100
because First Dracula was, or I 
believe, it's an epistolary 

463
00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:30,900
novel, you know. 
And so, you know, people are on 

464
00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:33,000
Tumblr because, you know, 
because they know what's going 

465
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,800
to eventually happen to the 
narrator are just sort of like, 

466
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,700
don't tell me are having and we 
won't spoil it here on the 

467
00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:42,300
podcast, but people are having a
lot of fun, just sort of in the 

468
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:44,900
in the lead-up to this met 
again, you know, that's just 

469
00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:47,100
like a public domain work that 
some ways that record-breaking 

470
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:50,800
bunch of money and I don't know 
if they're monetizing it or not.

471
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,800
I mean you know it's a public 
doing work but they still could 

472
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:56,200
be up, you know, people are 
Being creative with it. 

473
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,500
And I appreciate Katie bringing 
up the fact that like, you know,

474
00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:03,700
we as journalists who live on 
Twitter all day, you can come to

475
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:06,500
believe that Twitter is the only
way that you could ever do media

476
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:10,200
and that every single story has 
to have the elements of Scandal 

477
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,900
and outrage, dialed up, as far 
as they can, possibly go to have

478
00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:16,900
any chance at all of getting 
attention and like meanwhile 

479
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:19,100
like I don't know, just like go 
look at the headlines on the 

480
00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:21,700
stories that Eric and I right 
there like beautifully boring, 

481
00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:24,600
like they never over promise 
anything, I try to make them 

482
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,300
more board. 
It's just I don't have a very 

483
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,700
yeah I'm not no salacious no I 
don't like that. 

484
00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:34,500
You're most Reds by the way. 
Just out of curiosity. 

485
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:38,800
Every time there's a battle or 
is the battle its signal, or 

486
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,200
like the war over. 
What was that? 

487
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,800
Other the company you covered so
well base camp. 

488
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,500
Yeah, exactly. 
Yeah. 

489
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:49,000
I mean, look, I, you know, and 
I've written the, the stories, I

490
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,200
would argue that the material in
there justifies the headline. 

491
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,700
Yeah. 
But I think like the trick is 

492
00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:56,900
just Not to constantly over 
rotate. 

493
00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:58,800
Like I think we could all name 
Publications. 

494
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,200
That just always sort of put the
most absurd headline on 

495
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,300
everything and it and it just 
shows their deep insecurity that

496
00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:08,000
there's actually enough material
and there to get anyone to 

497
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,800
justify cooking. 
Also works for yeah. 

498
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,100
Listen. 
Sometimes we have to A/B test 

499
00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:16,500
those headlines to find out 
which is the most absurd but we 

500
00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:20,600
know when we've hit it I will 
say something you know just to 

501
00:25:20,608 --> 00:25:23,500
both of you guys and generally 
where the industry is gone over 

502
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:25,600
the last few years. 
That I also find very hard Thing

503
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,300
is the rise of the reported 
column. 

504
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,000
I think is very much attached to
the sub stack model. 

505
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,800
And, you know, we saw people at 
like, Ben Smith at the New York 

506
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,500
Times, do a great job at this, 
but I actually think it's a 

507
00:25:36,508 --> 00:25:40,000
great direction for journalism 
to go because I don't think 

508
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,700
there's any turning back the 
clock on people's opinions being

509
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:46,100
out there as journalists. 
I mean, Twitter is fundamentally

510
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:49,700
broken that and it for for most 
reporters, I think. 

511
00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:54,600
But what I like so much about, 
you know, newcomer and case a 

512
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,900
murder when you Started, I think
before it was called platform or

513
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:00,600
when you started your newsletter
and you basically laid out like 

514
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,400
here's the way, the Kira here 
are my views on the world of the

515
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,400
internet and like I believe that
Facebook has caused a huge 

516
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,100
amount of harm. 
I think Fox News has caused 

517
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,400
more, you probably have other 
tenants in your, you know, you 

518
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,000
know, your Hadith that explains 
it more in depth but I think 

519
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,400
that's an important thing that 
has come out of this whole 

520
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,100
Trend, which is, you know, you 
can still allow yourself with a 

521
00:26:23,108 --> 00:26:26,400
political or social world view. 
But also get like, you know, 

522
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,900
General General Nutrition from 
it, that is valuable to at least

523
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:33,200
like supporting your worldview 
and like maybe giving you 

524
00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:34,900
opportunities to think about 
things. 

525
00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:38,300
So there's my, there's Michael 
absolutely can thank you, thank 

526
00:26:38,300 --> 00:26:39,800
you for saying that. 
But by the way, that idea of 

527
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,700
sort of, like, laying out, 
Here's Where I Come From. 

528
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:45,100
That's an idea that I stole from
Jay Rosen and why you Professor 

529
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:47,900
anyone can do it. 
I highly encourage journalists 

530
00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:50,000
to think about doing it. 
It's, you know, it's enormously 

531
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,500
clarified to just like look it 
up blank Google doc until like 

532
00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:54,300
what do I actually think about 
the world? 

533
00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:57,600
Just try to write it. 
Down and once you have I think 

534
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,700
it just it brings real Integrity
to your work. 

535
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:02,000
You know, I get so frustrated by
all these really talented 

536
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,300
reporters that I follow on 
Twitter, who's like, whole mode 

537
00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:07,600
of engaging. 
With the world is just like, 

538
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,700
basically, quote tweeting stuff 
with LOL and LMAO like, that's 

539
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,900
that's their only. 
If you're a reader of those 

540
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:17,600
Publications and that's all you 
see those reporters doing. 

541
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,700
It's really hard to believe that
they're there to do anything, 

542
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,500
you know, about the world. 
But laugh at it. 

543
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:26,200
And I think that that actually 
Mine's The credibility of 

544
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,300
Journalism. 
So I appreciate what you said 

545
00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:31,200
Tom And yeah, I'm a huge fan of 
the reporter column, like Ben 

546
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,800
Smith is basically my North 
Star. 

547
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:39,500
Every time I pick up the phone. 
Whoa, same band, but I think he 

548
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:44,600
would love to hear that. 
I told him the other day and for

549
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,300
me I mean Casey a little further
along in his career but for me 

550
00:27:48,300 --> 00:27:51,000
like, you know, I don't know if 
I would have been able to get a 

551
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,500
reported column job and so this 
was a way to sort of Force the 

552
00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:57,900
issue. 
And thankfully you know I got 

553
00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:01,400
enough subscribers to justify it
but it allowed, you know, that's

554
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,500
a job that's part of in some 
ways not the case with been but 

555
00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:06,800
for a lot of reporters given to 
reporters once. 

556
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,900
They're tired of reporting a 
little bit but happy to have it 

557
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:12,100
sort of a little earlier in my 
career that I might have been 

558
00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:16,600
able to a traditional media 
Outlet also you know beyond just

559
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,000
the reported column. 
We also support the just very 

560
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,000
good and informative column 
which maybe could transition us 

561
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,900
to heal on time and and Matt 
Gene's continuing domination the

562
00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:31,500
most so good, analyses of 
whatever bullshit Elon is 

563
00:28:31,500 --> 00:28:33,500
throwing out us on a weekly 
basis. 

564
00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:36,500
It comes in armed with facts. 
That's what makes me not really 

565
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,500
different from Ela. 
Will you trust him? 

566
00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:42,200
And I like more than the 
financial system or report, you 

567
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,300
know, it's like oh that's guys 
the decider of what how the 

568
00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:48,000
world works and I read it 
anyway, what should we say about

569
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,900
Elon? 
Should we, should we go into it?

570
00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:52,300
Should we save it for the end, I
sort of jump to it but you know,

571
00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:54,500
we let's do that. 
I mean, I think it's maybe like 

572
00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:59,500
the Or C, Elon thing has been 
the biggest recent development. 

573
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,800
I mean, Casey has a close 
Watcher of Twitter, like what 

574
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,600
the, what's wrong with Jack 
Dorsey? 

575
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,600
I mean, he like, I mean, he's 
basically betraying the guy he 

576
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,300
put in as CEO. 
It's like, Prague has been CEO 

577
00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:15,000
for. 
I don't, I don't know of the guy

578
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,400
maybe is bad but like he's been 
in it for like a couple months 

579
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,700
and now Jack's. 
Like I'm glad that were none of 

580
00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:22,500
us can. 
Remember prague's name, we have 

581
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:26,800
a yeah. 
Jack dorsey's position is 

582
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,900
ideally. 
Twitter would be controlled by 

583
00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:33,400
no one and it should be this 
utopian and artistic world. 

584
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,000
But since we can't have that, 
let's have fascism of Elon Musk 

585
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,000
on Twitter instead and Only the 
strongest Among Us can rule, 

586
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,800
like, what if the guy has the 
most in coherent worldview? 

587
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,600
Why? 
I feel like that was so 

588
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,900
crystallized. 
When after the Elan deal was 

589
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:52,500
finally announced and Jack 
posts, a link to radiohead's 

590
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,900
everything in its right place as
like some sort of Arrival point 

591
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:58,600
for this whole deal and is like,
do you read the lyrics to that 

592
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,000
song? 
Have you ever listened to that 

593
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,300
song before and didn't just look
up? 

594
00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:05,700
You know, a song name that has 
the right in it because I would 

595
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:08,300
not call that the, like the 
utopian ideal of, like, any 

596
00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:13,000
situation, why? 
Yeah, it's, this is makeup 

597
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,600
sucking on a lemon. 
I mean, it's like radiohead's, 

598
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,300
just stop it, you know, kid a 
record. 

599
00:30:20,300 --> 00:30:23,600
Nothing is positive that would 
be referenced in that song or 

600
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,800
album, but go. 
Off check. 

601
00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:29,600
There's like also this beautiful
Symmetry and just like Jack and 

602
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:34,600
Elon using their companies to 
just like by things that please 

603
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,400
them whether it's Elon using 
Tesla to buy Solar City or Jack 

604
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,600
having Square by title. 
Like to stick like using these, 

605
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:44,200
like public companies is piggy 
banks. 

606
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,800
But you know, as far as like 
what is Jack thinking? 

607
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:49,600
You know, I talked a lot of 
people about this the best 

608
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,100
theory that I've heard is 
basically Jack was all but 

609
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:55,900
forced out of the company, 
right? 

610
00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:58,500
These activist shareholders came
on, they said you're not hitting

611
00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:01,300
any of these targets. 
And so last November, he's 

612
00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:05,000
basically told, like you, it's 
time for you to go, you're not 

613
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,700
even trying to do any of the 
things that you promised to do. 

614
00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:10,900
And so he leaves and tells the 
world that I do, you know, it's 

615
00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:13,500
my choice. 
I'm stepping down and he did get

616
00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:16,700
to Pam pick a successor. 
And so he picked parag who had 

617
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,800
played a big role in this blue 
sky project, which is, you know,

618
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,400
try to turn Twitter and to some 
kind of decentralized protocol. 

619
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,700
So at the time it seems like 
Jack thought parag was the Spat 

620
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:29,000
to create the Twitter of his 
dreams, but then a few months 

621
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,600
later, he hears that Elon is 
acquiring stock and his interest

622
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:33,900
in the company. 
And of course, they've been 

623
00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:37,000
friends for a while. 
And so, you know, Elaine starts 

624
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,800
Gathering, you know, a position 
of the company. 

625
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,500
And then, if you look at the 
proxy statement, like the day 

626
00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:45,800
after they reach a standstill 
agreement for Ilan, to stop, 

627
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,000
buying shares, and Twitter, Jack
goes to heaven is like, why 

628
00:31:48,008 --> 00:31:51,600
don't you just buy it? 
And so like Jack according to 

629
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,900
the regulatory filings is the 
person that upset The apple cart

630
00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:58,400
and and triggered this whole 
thing. 

631
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,900
And it's because he really wants
to get this thing off the public

632
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:04,000
market. 
And I think that's because he 

633
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,700
has all this scar tissue from 
the fact that he was forced out 

634
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:09,900
of his own company twice. 
And so it's like if he can't run

635
00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:13,100
it, that no one can. 
And so it is this very emotional

636
00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:16,100
reaction. 
Wonderful, there does seem like 

637
00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:22,000
this view from Jack through his 
tweets that like he was the CEO 

638
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,600
but he couldn't really do what 
he wanted. 

639
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,800
Because ultimately Sort of there
are there are obviously moves 

640
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,300
you have to make if you're doing
things for the public markets 

641
00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:34,500
and so you do those and like you
just can't be as crazy as he 

642
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:37,900
would have one. 
I mean that sort of capitalism 

643
00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:40,900
you know but like is he still 
going to be under capitalism as 

644
00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:43,300
a private company? 
Or I don't know, I guess the 

645
00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:46,800
question here is, how much do 
you let jack off the hook for 

646
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,100
the idea that he wasn't able to 
do what you truly wanted to CEO?

647
00:32:51,100 --> 00:32:54,600
Because he had to be sort of a 
good Steward of the company as a

648
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,500
public, Company's CEO, right? 
But I mean that it's such 

649
00:32:57,500 --> 00:32:59,000
nonsense, you know. 
Know it had more of an 

650
00:32:59,008 --> 00:33:01,800
opportunity that Jack Dorsey to 
shape the future of Twitter. 

651
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,800
You know, he co-founded it. 
He was CEO of it twice. 

652
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,100
You know, most recently for six 
years, he was also chairman of 

653
00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:09,800
the board. 
So for this guy to come out 

654
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,600
after all of that and just be 
like yeah, like what about you 

655
00:33:12,608 --> 00:33:14,300
know, Twitter never became what 
it should have. 

656
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:17,300
Its like that is literally or 
well that could not be more your

657
00:33:17,300 --> 00:33:18,400
fault. 
Right. 

658
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:19,700
Right. 
It would be kind of like, if 

659
00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:23,200
Dean baquet were like God, well,
I was running this show. 

660
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,000
We really never did what we 
should. 

661
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:28,000
Crazy sounding that would sound 
insane. 

662
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,000
Completely. 
Unlike Jack just gets a past 

663
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,700
even though he's, you know, he 
was he was at halftime CEO which

664
00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:35,100
was also his choice, right? 
Like that was that's what makes 

665
00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:37,600
me even more galling. 
Why does he get a pass? 

666
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,000
It fascinates me so much more 
than any other executive of any 

667
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,500
industry I've ever covered. 
He gets a pass every time. 

668
00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:48,600
Well, I mean, so Elon also gets 
this pass, right? 

669
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:49,900
That's true. 
Another thing that they have in 

670
00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:54,300
common but this is a big reason.
Why the activist investors came 

671
00:33:54,300 --> 00:33:58,100
on in T20 to begin with, was 
that they were sick of it. 

672
00:33:58,100 --> 00:34:00,500
And it was clear that Twitter 
was underperforming in part 

673
00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:03,000
because they had a terrible CEO 
who was barely paying attention 

674
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,700
to the company. 
So it did actually wind up. 

675
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:09,000
There was a consequence for him 
which was that he lost his job, 

676
00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:11,100
but he can't stop meddling with 
it. 

677
00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:14,699
And, you know, now the the Twist
and The Saga this week is that 

678
00:34:14,699 --> 00:34:17,300
he's apparently going to roll 
his Equity over into the new 

679
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:19,800
Elon company, you know, and 
that'll probably be a big 

680
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,199
position and he may be able to 
actually, you know, continue to 

681
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,000
exert control on the future 
footer. 

682
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:28,000
Everything you just ABS is in so
many ways, like very vindicating

683
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,500
of the Nick Bilton book on 
Twitter where he describes Jack.

684
00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:36,300
Dorsey is basically like a 
scheming moron and it's what I 

685
00:34:36,308 --> 00:34:37,600
remember when that book came 
out. 

686
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,800
People are like, that's so mean 
Jack. 

687
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,699
Such a good guy like, but I 
don't know. 

688
00:34:42,699 --> 00:34:46,100
Like, I would say that that book
is not looking so terrible. 

689
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,500
And I wonder what was it about 
Jack Dorsey that for that huge 

690
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:55,699
chunk of time people, so wanted 
to defend him and Text him. 

691
00:34:55,699 --> 00:34:57,000
I did. 
I kind of don't get it. 

692
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,600
I mean, why don't you know when 
you tell Nick, Bilton, who you 

693
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,300
are believe them. 
The first time there. 

694
00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:08,200
Look, there there is a tradition
in of founder worship and in 

695
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,500
Silicon Valley. 
And if you go back to 2013, 2014

696
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,300
Jack really did look like this 
transformational figure who had 

697
00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:17,500
two incredibly powerful ideas, 
right? 

698
00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:20,700
Twitter and square. 
And, you know, till very 

699
00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:23,500
recently like square look like 
an even more amazing company 

700
00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:25,700
than Twitter and it basically, 
every way, Right? 

701
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:28,600
So there's this idea that once 
you're lucky twice, you're good 

702
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,800
and by that standard, how could 
Jack Dorsey be anything but 

703
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,100
good, but I think the past five 
years or so, I've really taken a

704
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:39,100
lot of Shine off of that because
he's become so disconnected. 

705
00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:42,600
You know, he's remotely managing
these companies in between 

706
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,100
meditation Retreats, it is just 
not. 

707
00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:49,000
He just doesn't seem to be as 
serious as a person as he didn't

708
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,100
like 2013 2014. 
But that point of view is why 

709
00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:54,900
it's probably so convenient for 
him to have this removed. 

710
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,700
Move from Twitter as you know, 
the CEO and kind of say why is 

711
00:35:58,700 --> 00:36:00,400
it not achieving its full 
potential? 

712
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:02,700
What is going on here? 
It's like well you first of all 

713
00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:05,700
are distant from the company 
physically for a time when he 

714
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:07,300
decided he was going to move to 
Africa. 

715
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:10,800
But also it's just so it's such 
a perfect microcosm of this era 

716
00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:13,300
that people are refusing to take
any responsibility for their 

717
00:36:13,300 --> 00:36:16,200
actions. 
And instead speaking very, you 

718
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,900
know, for like an illusory way 
of how they are, you know what 

719
00:36:20,900 --> 00:36:23,700
is the sphere of influence that 
they have on things and who is 

720
00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:26,600
responsible for the largest? 
Sequences of the world. 

721
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,400
I mean, it's perfect. 
He is a man of our time. 

722
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,300
This deal is still not 
happening, or do you have a bet 

723
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:35,700
Casey. 
I mean, the stock market is 

724
00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:38,700
clearly not certain it's 
happening but sort of the the 

725
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:40,100
odds seem like they went out 
this way. 

726
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:43,100
I mean it's a really weird thing
about this week as last week was

727
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:46,300
the week of chaos and Eli making
it seem like the deal was never 

728
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:50,500
in happened this week. 
He got rid of the margin loan 

729
00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:52,900
that he was going to take out 
against his Tesla shares 

730
00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:54,600
suggesting. 
He was going to leave her light 

731
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,200
up more. 
People to take equity in the 

732
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,800
company. 
So, I mean, this week, it was 

733
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,300
like a completely different Elon
Musk. 

734
00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:02,700
He stopped, you know, tweeting, 
weird stuff about the company 

735
00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:04,700
for the most part, and started 
tweeting about Elden ring 

736
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:07,400
instead. 
So, you know, if you want to 

737
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,200
have like a musket M, that's 
like, How likely is this dude is

738
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,500
like this week, you know, it's 
sort of swung over to the end. 

739
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:15,800
Maybe it goes through side of 
things. 

740
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:16,400
Do you think? 
Is it? 

741
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,800
He can get outside money. 
Yeah, I mean, he's already lined

742
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,900
up. 
You know, billions of equity 

743
00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:24,200
been a lot of reasons is right. 
What's up? 

744
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,200
Yes. 
A lot of the deal was supposed 

745
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,600
to be done. 
Yeah, I think I'm a 

746
00:37:28,607 --> 00:37:31,200
accommodation I've done Equity 
but like, I would like Andre 

747
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:32,100
some. 
I think was going to take 

748
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:33,100
everybody. 
Yeah, yeah. 

749
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,700
And Sequoia, but they weren't 
that big. 

750
00:37:35,700 --> 00:37:40,400
And if you are an employee at 
Twitter right now, how do you 

751
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,600
what exactly is your commitment 
to this company? 

752
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,200
And to whatever Mission, you 
think you are attached to you 

753
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,300
right now. 
I just it blows my mind. 

754
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,200
It's one thing to sort of see 
the circus playing out on TV or 

755
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,700
wherever, but to decide that you
are part of Something greater 

756
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:58,100
that there is still, you know, 
beyond just like clock in and 

757
00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:01,600
out and, you know, pushing code 
like actually feeling like there

758
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,600
is a light here. 
That's going to result in like 

759
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,700
the greater, good of the company
and maybe even the world like, 

760
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:08,800
what, what where is your brain 
at? 

761
00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:11,800
Well, I mean, you know Twitter 
is, is very important product. 

762
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,900
It's important every day. 
I mean, you know, all the 

763
00:38:13,900 --> 00:38:16,100
horrible things that happened 
this week and how essential 

764
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:18,300
Twitter has been to 
understanding those events in 

765
00:38:18,300 --> 00:38:19,900
real-time. 
So I'm sure plenty of people who

766
00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:23,400
work at the company are just 
happy to continue doing that at 

767
00:38:23,408 --> 00:38:25,400
the same time. 
I also know a lot of Our people 

768
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,200
are looking for other jobs right
now. 

769
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,900
A lot of other Executives have 
quit in the past few weeks. 

770
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,400
We're going to see a lot more of
that in the weeks to come. 

771
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:35,000
You know, keep in mind probably 
had what three months running 

772
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,700
this company before this whole 
catastrophe started to unfold. 

773
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:40,100
So he didn't really have much 
time to rally the troops. 

774
00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:42,300
And as soon as he did start 
talking to his troops on a 

775
00:38:42,308 --> 00:38:45,500
regular basis, it was, you know,
trying to manage their feelings.

776
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:48,800
Around this guy with a 
kindergarten level understanding

777
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,400
of content. 
Moderation saying he was going 

778
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,000
to come in and blow up the 
company, right? 

779
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,800
So Prague has not been popular 
among the rank and file. 

780
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,200
I'll just a very difficult 
situation, so Prague is not 

781
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:04,000
popular either. 
I mean he was, it was well-liked

782
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,200
when he was named Twitter CEO, 
he's a known quantity, there 

783
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,000
he's been there for over a 
decade. 

784
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,400
People did respect him but he 
has not been able to do much 

785
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,600
since he got to the company in 
terms of improving it and making

786
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,200
people feel better about their 
jobs. 

787
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,200
He's been firing a lot of 
people. 

788
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,300
We got any that's or your do you
know what? 

789
00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:27,200
That's cute. 
Always mean, I think it's fairly

790
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,600
standard like new CEO comes in 
and cleans house a little bit 

791
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,200
and wants to pick their own 
deputies and lieutenants, who 

792
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,100
are more loyal to them. 
Great timing. 

793
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,600
Yeah, I mean it couldn't wait 
until after the deal went 

794
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,200
through to start accessing 
favored top-down univ.'s. 

795
00:39:42,300 --> 00:39:44,700
That would make sense to me. 
I mean, you know, he eventually 

796
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:48,100
came forward and said, I have to
be prepared for any eventuality 

797
00:39:48,100 --> 00:39:51,100
and you know, and I think the 
subtext there was if this deal 

798
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:53,600
falls through. 
Like, do I want to squander 

799
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,100
three or six months while I I 
have these people who I don't 

800
00:39:56,100 --> 00:39:59,000
really trust in these positions 
of high Authority. 

801
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,400
I don't know what give to me the
most optimistic outcome. 

802
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,100
Like if you were to say 
everything, you know every Lon 

803
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:08,000
cleans up his act, the deal goes
through. 

804
00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:10,600
What does the ideal version of 
Twitter? 

805
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,200
Look like six to eight months 
from now. 

806
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,700
I mean I think like the best 
case scenario is that as Elon is

807
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:22,300
confronted with the everyday 
realities of running Twitter. 

808
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:26,700
He sort of speed runs the past 
Decade of all of us learning 

809
00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:29,200
about why content. 
Moderation is good for business 

810
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:34,500
and whines up not changing that 
much of the core product, right?

811
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:37,700
Like when you look at what 
you'll want to do with Twitter 

812
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,700
aside from what he said about 
Free Speech, there are not a lot

813
00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:43,000
of big changes that he is 
proposed. 

814
00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:46,700
So there's a world in which he 
runs the company and it doesn't 

815
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:50,200
change all that much. 
I think that's about as good as 

816
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:51,900
you can hope for like, I don't 
think he's going to be a 

817
00:40:51,908 --> 00:40:54,100
transformational leader. 
You know, Twitter was working 

818
00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:56,300
fine for him. 
He's the, you know, number one 

819
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:58,900
user on the platform is 
businesses or helped 

820
00:40:58,900 --> 00:41:01,800
tremendously by the fact that, 
you know, he can promote them 

821
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,500
there. 
So why would he change it that 

822
00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:05,400
much? 
Yeah, as a side note, that is 

823
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,200
why it killed me that there was 
like a Spate of op-ed saying, 

824
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,600
like, what we're seeing here is 
billionaires, controlling the 

825
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,100
media. 
And, you know, Elon Musk is 

826
00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:16,000
going to turn Twitter. 
And do a megaphone is like 80 

827
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,800
million followers. 
What more megaphone does he 

828
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,000
need? 
Like, how does that pass as like

829
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,900
smart analysis? 
Twitter has already a megaphone?

830
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,700
Yeah, I do not. 
And the liberal worry about Elon

831
00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:31,000
Musk taking over Twitter at all.
Like I just don't see what he 

832
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,300
does. 
It's so bad and I would love, 

833
00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:36,600
I've said this a billion times 
already, but I'd love for Ilan 

834
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,200
to be culpable for every bad 
thing that happens on Twitter, 

835
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,700
like especially if he's burning 
himself, is like a Republican. 

836
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:47,400
And so, you can say, oh, this is
for once, like conservative has 

837
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,200
to actually govern something 
people care about and can be, I 

838
00:41:50,207 --> 00:41:53,100
even like all the Kangas and and
shoots a school full of children

839
00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:54,800
and post all the photos and 
videos. 

840
00:41:54,900 --> 00:41:56,700
Is on Twitter or something like 
that? 

841
00:41:56,900 --> 00:42:00,800
Maybe maybe who knows be there 
or I don't know what's the? 

842
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,400
But you're saying like if he's 
going to loosen things up and 

843
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,800
let the puppies, are thinking 
about what they post on your 

844
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,200
rate and not sensor and a bunch 
of crazy-ass, shit shows up like

845
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:15,600
people being beheaded over. 
So you always had the red, it 

846
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,500
cou Shawn, you know, had that 
whole tweet storm that was very 

847
00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:22,400
popular, which basically had the
idea that ultimately, you know, 

848
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:27,700
people are forced to Satisfy the
consensus of the mob, right? 

849
00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:30,100
Is that how you would 
characterize it Casey or I mean 

850
00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:33,300
basically like there's just a 
level of public pressure that 

851
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:36,900
even the most like True Believer
conservative wouldn't be able to

852
00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:38,500
stomach. 
Like you're saying Katie and 

853
00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:40,900
therefore they would make the 
same decisions that the good 

854
00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:44,600
Liberals are making giant. 
People don't want to believe 

855
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,200
that there is consumer demand 
for Content moderation. 

856
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,900
But there is a promise you like,
consumers, love contact, 

857
00:42:50,900 --> 00:42:53,800
moderation. 
I don't want to open a social 

858
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,800
media app and see. 
Something, insanely Dreadful. 

859
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,400
I don't want that in the most 
moderate consumers like that, 

860
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,300
that they're the ones who want 
content moderation, because they

861
00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:06,900
don't want to be annoyed by the 
insane extreme behavior of the 

862
00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:08,600
fringes. 
That's what never made sense 

863
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,000
about Iran's you. 
It's The moderates Who on 

864
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,400
content moderation, not the far 
left or the far-right like this 

865
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,300
is all, we all know, like, just 
hurtling towards a scenario, 

866
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:21,500
where Tucker Carlson is, you 
know, arguing Lee arguing 

867
00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:24,400
vehemently towards the need to 
see beheading videos on Twitter.

868
00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:26,000
Right. 
It's just going to be him 

869
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,900
saying, like the big media 
companies. 

870
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:30,200
Tell you, you don't want to see 
people's heads being chopped 

871
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,200
off, but actually you really 
actually want, you didn't want 

872
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,300
to see it. 
My family wants to see it and 

873
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:37,500
your family wants to see it too.
Yeah. 

874
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,200
When the families of those who 
have been beheaded, they also 

875
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,100
want to see that again. 
We're thinking when I should be.

876
00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:48,600
So yeah, yeah, Casey I mean, 
this is like the Tom's getting 

877
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,500
at. 
I mean and you touched on this 

878
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:53,600
earlier that like you think that
in your mission statement that 

879
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,400
fox Was worse than Facebook. 
And it's like, I think a lot 

880
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,500
about, I mean, I don't know, 
like, but yet, there's so much 

881
00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:04,200
more interest in, like, 
understanding how social media 

882
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,100
companies behave than yeah, like
fox or, I don't know, how is 

883
00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:09,400
your thinking on that sort of 
grow? 

884
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,000
Well, in on this is like, in 
this, it is, so, we like, Fox is

885
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,100
very straightforward. 
Like, you just have a bunch of, 

886
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,900
you know, people going on and 
like, saying horrible things and

887
00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:19,100
it's not anything other than 
what it pretends to be. 

888
00:44:19,500 --> 00:44:23,400
You know, Facebook is not that 
it presents itself as a sort of 

889
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,700
being this neutral forum for 
Todd, their these algorithms, 

890
00:44:26,700 --> 00:44:29,000
that rank things that are 
extremely difficult to 

891
00:44:29,008 --> 00:44:31,900
understand people assume the 
worst about them. 

892
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:34,100
They're collecting a lot of data
about as personally, they're 

893
00:44:34,100 --> 00:44:37,300
using it to Target ads. 
So those are like very different

894
00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:40,300
things and it's, it should not 
surprise us that like Facebook 

895
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:42,800
has drawn so much more scrutiny.
It's also much bigger. 

896
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,100
Right? 
Facebook's audiences like 

897
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:46,100
workers of magnitude bigger than
Fox News. 

898
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,000
Same time, you do a study of 
like, what actually shifts the 

899
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,000
politics in a country and it 
seems like it's much more Fox 

900
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,700
News than a Facebook, you know 
by itself. 

901
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,100
Elf. 
So, you know, I like everything 

902
00:44:58,300 --> 00:45:00,800
multiple things can be true. 
Facebook is a very important 

903
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,100
subject for study. 
I write about all the time, but 

904
00:45:04,100 --> 00:45:08,600
I'm very leery of people that 
want to find very simple 

905
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:13,500
solutions, to systemic problems 
and like, over the past year, I 

906
00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:16,800
just feel like we've seen in so 
many ways that our problems are 

907
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,600
so much bigger than freaking 
Facebook, like, you could unplug

908
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,900
that thing tomorrow, and you 
would still have the majority of

909
00:45:22,900 --> 00:45:24,800
the Republican Party who's 
turned against democracy. 

910
00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:27,600
Like you cannot solve that 
problem at the level of like 

911
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,300
putting the algorithm on GitHub,
but a lot of people still tweet 

912
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:34,200
about that as if that's the case
and if you want more space I 

913
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,300
mean sorry if you unplugged Fox 
News, it does feel like, I mean,

914
00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:38,800
I think we definitely want to 
try it. 

915
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,500
Yeah, we should try it. 
Yeah. 

916
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:42,900
Katie and I are no comments on 
that. 

917
00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:49,900
Yeah I just I see that I'm like 
the worst thing in the world to 

918
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:54,900
say I'm no commenting because I 
actually I had somebody who Who 

919
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:57,600
watches probably a lot more Fox 
News than you do Eric. 

920
00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:00,900
Well, I watch a lot of Tucker 
Clips or only, but yeah, that's 

921
00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:02,900
not the same. 
You're defending Fox News from 

922
00:46:02,900 --> 00:46:04,800
first print from your actual 
point of view. 

923
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,000
Yeah. 
As somebody who has to watch it 

924
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,700
all the time, who works with Fox
news, reporters in The Newsroom 

925
00:46:11,700 --> 00:46:14,900
at the justice department, who 
sees what they report, who reads

926
00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:17,600
their stories? 
I think that the blanket 

927
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:19,600
statement, let's try shutting 
down. 

928
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,000
Fox News is not something that I
would actually agree with. 

929
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,900
Wow, now it's shocking me. 
There's something deeply wrong 

930
00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:29,100
with what's going on on Tucker 
Carlson show. 

931
00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:33,200
Let me point you to the 20,000 
words that my colleague just 

932
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,100
wrote about this very issue 
where he talks about how Tucker 

933
00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:39,300
Carlson is mainstreaming. 
Seen the most virulent and ugly,

934
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:44,600
white supremacist and homophobic
ideas into mainstream America. 

935
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,600
All happy, we should also say, 
like the quote-unquote news 

936
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,200
division of fox has done so much
to mainstream ideas about, you 

937
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,000
know, grooming and CRT and all 
of these frickin boogeymen Like,

938
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,400
that is not contained a Tucker 
Carlson, right? 

939
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,000
The entire news division, the 
entire news division is oriented

940
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,800
around finding grievance bait to
feed to conservatives and poison

941
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,300
their minds into thinking that 
Democrats are, you know, trying 

942
00:47:07,300 --> 00:47:10,300
to destroy civilization. 
I would, I would argue that. 

943
00:47:10,300 --> 00:47:13,400
That's first of all, not unique 
to only Fox. 

944
00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:16,600
But I would also say that I 
think that there is a difference

945
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,000
between what's going on in the 
sort of op-ed hours the The 

946
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,100
Primetime hours and what's 
happening during the day. 

947
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,600
I'll only issue I take is Eric 
wants to say that the reason I 

948
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,800
don't support. 
His blanket statement is simply 

949
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,400
because I'm too afraid to say 
that I agree with him which is 

950
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:33,300
not true. 
Okay. 

951
00:47:33,300 --> 00:47:36,500
I it's shocking to me. 
I have to meet you for it to me.

952
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,800
Fox News is clearly the worst 
thing in American culture at the

953
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:44,100
moment in would certainly be. 
The first thing I would want to 

954
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:47,400
pull the plug on with with 
little ambiguity and I'm 

955
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,300
struggling to respond to the 
argument style that I just need 

956
00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:53,700
to watch more of. 
No, I'm not. 

957
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:59,300
I'm not saying to make tibia, 
but I'm not even saying you're 

958
00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:00,900
wrong. 
I'm just saying I disagree with 

959
00:48:00,900 --> 00:48:03,700
you but for not for the reason, 
you're going to say yes, one 

960
00:48:03,700 --> 00:48:07,100
talk about snap to close it out.
I can talk about snow Erik 

961
00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:09,200
Alma's, not to say that. 
I refuse to say hate 

962
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,300
Republicans, because I'm too 
afraid to what Eric doesn't 

963
00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:17,100
understand is that most of my 
family's Republican and I have a

964
00:48:17,107 --> 00:48:19,400
lot of friends who are 
Republicans, which is why I will

965
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,500
not say out of hand. 
Hate all Republicans. 

966
00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:27,200
I grossest thing. 
So I think they're diluted like 

967
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,600
I've spent tons of time with 
them like and I'm not and I'm 

968
00:48:29,607 --> 00:48:32,700
just saying it, like, I guess my
preference that you don't say 

969
00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:36,200
something is because it's your 
beat makes me more comfortable 

970
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,600
with than the fact that I have a
friend who's fine. 

971
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:42,600
Just sort of with terrible 
people. 

972
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:47,100
So yeah, it is a set out of a 
place of trying to protect you 

973
00:48:47,100 --> 00:48:49,700
from saying the things that are 
going to make me. 

974
00:48:49,700 --> 00:48:55,100
I'm spending all Memorial Day 
with I'm about to I'm about to 

975
00:48:55,100 --> 00:48:58,400
get into a car tomorrow and go 
spend my whole weekend. 

976
00:48:58,700 --> 00:49:03,900
It house with Republican, we 
Republicans can be nice to have 

977
00:49:03,900 --> 00:49:07,800
his company as yeah as someone 
who like commits. 

978
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,300
Very strongly to The Fringe view
that the Channel that I would 

979
00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:14,600
unplug the first to CNN that is 
based entirely know that is 

980
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,700
based entirely on my having to 
go visit my parents all the time

981
00:49:17,700 --> 00:49:19,600
and seeing their obsessive 
watching. 

982
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,700
CNN my mom, it's not an Aussie 
anyway nauseating. 

983
00:49:22,700 --> 00:49:25,200
It was Great talking to you. 
Unfortunately have to run to 

984
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,400
this other call but Casey was 
good to see you enjoyed it to 

985
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,200
see you Katie. 
Why do you want to just finish 

986
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,900
up like five minutes with SNAP? 
So we can end the episode in a 

987
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,500
normal Place. 
Casey, you're a cipher, I don't 

988
00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:40,000
know what your thoughts are at 
the. 

989
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,000
No. 
I mean I'm ready to go. 

990
00:49:42,300 --> 00:49:46,200
They got reamed after Evan 
Spiegel, put out an internal 

991
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,000
note and filed with the SEC that
they are likely to fall below 

992
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,200
their projections in terms of 
Revenue next. 

993
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,200
Citing economic headwinds and 
the massive downturn. 

994
00:49:57,300 --> 00:50:00,900
And look, I don't cover this 
company anymore. 

995
00:50:00,900 --> 00:50:02,900
It's been a long time since I've
talked to sources there. 

996
00:50:02,900 --> 00:50:05,500
I have nothing new to Surly. 
Say about the current state of 

997
00:50:05,508 --> 00:50:08,200
affairs, this seems like an 
insane over reaction. 

998
00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:10,700
Yeah. 
It in my mind, I mean, snap is 

999
00:50:10,700 --> 00:50:15,300
still a growing app, although I 
still don't fully understand its

1000
00:50:15,300 --> 00:50:17,600
ad promise. 
And, and that side of the 

1001
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,200
business is still kind of 
confuses me. 

1002
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,100
It makes us at least 80% as much
sense as any other digital 

1003
00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:23,800
media. 
Accompany. 

1004
00:50:24,100 --> 00:50:28,700
So this is kind of a crazy time 
where the market is really 

1005
00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:33,000
severely overcorrected against 
this company, but I don't know 

1006
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,000
how long it'll take for stuff to
normalize again. 

1007
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:40,600
Yeah, I don't know that either. 
I'm like, you know, I have 

1008
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,900
nothing smart to say about like 
why investors do this thing and 

1009
00:50:43,900 --> 00:50:45,900
don't do that thing. 
You know, like reporters 

1010
00:50:45,900 --> 00:50:48,000
famously, do not play the stock 
market. 

1011
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,100
So we're like insulated from 
this and but, you know, if he 

1012
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:55,200
thought that Snapchat was Like a
valuable app and snap was 

1013
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,500
valuable company. 
Six months ago, I don't know why

1014
00:50:57,500 --> 00:51:00,700
you'd be applying a 40% discount
to that today, you know, I guess

1015
00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:04,100
the only argument is that like 
multiples of been so inflated 

1016
00:51:04,100 --> 00:51:06,700
for so long that it's like time 
for them to come back to earth 

1017
00:51:06,700 --> 00:51:09,100
and that, you know, maybe you're
going to sort of like over 

1018
00:51:09,100 --> 00:51:12,100
correct. 
Just a little bit but yeah, I 

1019
00:51:12,107 --> 00:51:15,100
think I think snap is probably 
going to be just fine for the 

1020
00:51:15,107 --> 00:51:16,900
next three or five years. 
Yeah, there's nothing 

1021
00:51:16,900 --> 00:51:20,800
fundamental that changed about 
its business or its stickiness 

1022
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,700
with users. 
I guess. 

1023
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:26,100
Maybe my One criticism is like 
its growth is a little bit 

1024
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,600
eyebrow-raising not like in a 
suspicious way but it's probably

1025
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,100
coming from less valuable users.
That maybe don't denote that 

1026
00:51:33,100 --> 00:51:34,800
they're going to be able to 
hugely monetize them. 

1027
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,600
But again this is like the 
Playbook that social media 

1028
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,100
companies have run for the last 
decade so there's nothing new 

1029
00:51:40,100 --> 00:51:42,100
here. 
Yeah well I mean I will also say

1030
00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:44,500
that the like Snap has been 
really bad at predicting its 

1031
00:51:44,500 --> 00:51:46,200
revenue for the past couple 
years, right? 

1032
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,500
And I think that investors might
just be saying the hell with 

1033
00:51:48,500 --> 00:51:51,500
this because they they've been 
so flight far from their 

1034
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:54,800
guidance so many times. 
Are they you know first they're 

1035
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,900
like app tracking transparency. 
Blake is isn't going to affect 

1036
00:51:58,900 --> 00:52:01,500
us but like that, affected them 
but like then they bounce back 

1037
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:04,100
but like then they issued a, you
know, corrected guidance. 

1038
00:52:04,100 --> 00:52:06,300
And so may just be that 
investors are saying, we have no

1039
00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:07,600
idea what's gonna happen with 
this company? 

1040
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:11,300
Yeah, justjust hold for a bit. 
You guys are much closer to it 

1041
00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:15,500
than I am but it does, it feels 
like a company, you know, that 

1042
00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:20,500
never wanted to run ads and 
never got comfortable with the 

1043
00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:22,300
fact that it's business is 
running ads. 

1044
00:52:22,300 --> 00:52:26,000
I don't know it like Like, yeah,
I don't know, it's always going 

1045
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,800
to be an ads business, right? 
Or there's no escaping this sort

1046
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,500
of AD situation that they've got
themselves in. 

1047
00:52:31,500 --> 00:52:34,100
I mean, there they made a big 
bet on e-commerce. 

1048
00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:37,600
You know, like they want to make
everything shoppable within the 

1049
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,500
app and they're recording 
creators, which you can monetize

1050
00:52:41,500 --> 00:52:45,900
in ways that go beyond ads. 
So, I think there's like, you 

1051
00:52:45,900 --> 00:52:50,500
can imagine some different 
businesses for them but ads are 

1052
00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:52,600
the heart of it, right? 
As I've said on this show before

1053
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:58,300
and I stand No one wants to run 
ads ad stink as Ur ads, make 

1054
00:52:58,300 --> 00:52:59,900
everything that you've ever 
liked worse. 

1055
00:53:00,500 --> 00:53:05,700
And so I had complete, you know,
I related as much as I ever 

1056
00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:09,300
could to heaven when he believed
very strongly that he didn't 

1057
00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:12,400
want to have ads on the 
platform, but at some point, you

1058
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,500
just have to give in to the 
business and every media 

1059
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:18,800
business in the world consumers 
are cheap, you know, Netflix is 

1060
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,900
going to do ads. 
Yeah, it'll be worse for it and 

1061
00:53:21,900 --> 00:53:26,000
we're worst world because we 
live in that eventuality. 

1062
00:53:26,100 --> 00:53:29,200
But yeah, I don't think they're 
going to dump as anytime soon. 

1063
00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:32,800
And I guess my final line here 
is just by now is the time to 

1064
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,300
buy snacks full endorsement. 
That's my that's my my analyst 

1065
00:53:37,300 --> 00:53:39,200
rating. 
Cool. 

1066
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,300
Casey thanks. 
Thanks so much for coming on. 

1067
00:53:41,300 --> 00:53:44,000
Everybody should subscribe to 
platformer. 

1068
00:53:44,900 --> 00:53:46,800
Yeah, nice. 
Nice to hear from you. 

1069
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,700
Yes, thanks for having me on 
those fun the tussling with you 

1070
00:53:50,700 --> 00:53:51,900
all. 
Thanks, Casey 

1071
00:54:04,500 --> 00:54:06,400
goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1072
00:54:06,500 --> 00:54:08,100
Goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye.