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Exciting week here at Newcomer. 
We just announced our Cerebral 

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Valley London AI summit. 
We are going across the pond. 

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How are you feeling about that? 
Daunting. 

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No, I, I think we're ready. 
We've got the venue, we've got a

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great speaker line up. 
Very excited to have, you know, 

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dark Hazra Shahi, the CEO of 
Uber. 

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Oh my gosh. 
Wait, you're, you're the Uber 

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guy. 
What's it like, you know, 

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booking him into your own event?
It's flashbacks, you know, I 

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covered to the insurance and 
outs of Uber, including the CEO 

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search. 
You know, when it was a what it 

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was going to be Jeffrey Immelt, 
it was going to be Meg Whitman. 

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And then out of nowhere, it was 
sort of the dark horse, dark 

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Hazra Shahi. 
And, you know, I've met with him

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a number of times. 
When Uber went public, I was 

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there on the floor of the New 
York Stock Exchange when 

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newcomer launched, Dara was kind
enough to give me an interview. 

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They've been pretty savvy, 
honestly, about independent 

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media. 
I, I, I'm sure you saw that they

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did what one of the inauguration
parties with Barry Weiss at the 

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Free Press. 
So they're, they're definitely 

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up on this sort of indie media. 
I've known them for a long time.

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It helps that they have a 
partnership and investment with 

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Wave, the great self driving car
company of Europe. 

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Alex Kendall is going to speak 
with Dara and Uber, of course, 

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needs to show how it's relevant 
in a sort of self driving future

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with Tesla beating Instrum very 
loudly and Waymo partnering with

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Uber but showing, hey, we can do
our own thing. 

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So yeah, I'm definitely excited 
about that one. 

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Yeah, that'll be a great hit. 
Also, I mean, I'm super pumped 

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about all the, you know, like 
spicy hot early stage startups 

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that everyone's talking about 
going to be on the lineup. 

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We got the CEO of Granola 
coming, the hottest AI note 

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taker. 
I know I've started using it 

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though. 
I'm like not good at being chill

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about it. 
You know, I feel like part of 

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the sales pitch with granola is 
that you just like let it run 

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and don't bother everybody. 
But I'm like, oh, I need to tell

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everybody I'm using that, which 
sort of complicates everything. 

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And obviously, we have Dylan 
Field at Figma, which we're 

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equally excited about. 
Yeah. 

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June 25th, Cerebral Valley 
summit.com. 

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Check it out. 
It's, you know, we want founders

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to apply. 
Basically, if you're a real 

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insider, you should join us and 
apply or shoot us an e-mail. 

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This episode is presented by 
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Jumping into our main story of 
the week, spoiler alert, it's 

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not tariffs. 
We're probably the only podcast 

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not talking about the tariffs 
right now. 

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We cover private companies, not 
public stocks that are tanking 

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across the country. 
I know of anything that's one of

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the great privileges of being a 
private company. 

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You're like we raised the money 
before we think on longer time 

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horizons, we don't have to sort 
of have the ebb and flow. 

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Obviously, private markets will 
not be insulated, given that 

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this is likely to be an ongoing 
problem. 

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Of course, but for an now it's, 
it's we're in that's over in 

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public markets and over in 
private markets. 

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They're having an awesome week. 
Open AI raised the largest 

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venture backed round of all time
at $40 billion. 

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Wow. 
We've grown so numb to it. 

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I I've, it's always like, wait, 
this is the largest, you know, 

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we, we did make a big deal of 
Wiz when that was like what like

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the biggest M&A and now we have 
the largest round for. 

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All the downturn naysayers right
now. 

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This quarter has been 
ridiculous. 

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Just to catch everyone up on the
Bulls points of the round, I 

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know it's been out in the ether 
for a while, but it open AI 

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finally announced it this week 
here. 

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Kind of the rundown of the main 
stats you should know it was a 

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40 billion total dollar round, 
but it's kind of tranche. 

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So it's a little funky, but that
raises the company's valuation 

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to 300 billion, which is wild 
for a private tech company 

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that's like one of the most 
valuable companies ever. 

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We have SoftBank leading 
initially with a $7.5 billion 

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investment and then 2.5 billion 
from an investor syndicate that 

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includes Microsoft, CO2, Altima,
Thrive. 

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People have backed them before 
and then the round is tranched. 

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So the remaining 30 billion of 
capital, which is again divided 

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between SoftBank and those 
investors will come at the end 

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of 2025 as long as Open AI 
converts to a for profit 

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company. 
So it is dependent on that 

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transition happening before the 
end of the year. 

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Yeah, that's kind of staked, you
know, funding there, but it's 

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still a huge raise. 
And just for some reported stats

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behind how Open AI has been 
performing to justify this crazy

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valuation. 
They have projected 3.4 billion 

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in revenue arr around 4.4 
billion. 

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So the implied valuation 
multiple is around 68 X, which 

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is high but not the craziest 
we've ever seen. 

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They they just have to do this 
one little challenging thing of 

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figure out how to go from being 
a non profit to a for profit 

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company. 
They don't figure that out. 

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They don't get all the money. 
Hard to see how investors return

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all this money if they're 
investing investing in a non 

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profit. 
So there's there's a big. 

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Flip the big question on 
everyone's minds, of course, is,

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is open AI worth this? 
Is this just in La La land right

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now or is it actually the most 
valuable private company of all 

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time? 
Eric, you made the bear case a 

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few months ago at the 157 
billion valuation. 

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Now we've basically doubled 
that. 

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I, I know I've been searching 
through the piece because I was 

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like, I definitely caveated it. 
I said there's inevitably going 

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to be more momentum investing in
Open AI to come. 

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Open AI is probably going to 
have to raise money again next 

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year, even with its 4 billion 
revolving credit line. 

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Open AI could very well raise an
up round based on the same vibes

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it raised money on this time, 
especially if investors continue

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to prioritize revenue growth 
over cash flows. 

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So I'm prepared for people to 
mock this story in a year or 

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less when Open AI raises an up 
round. 

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I should have foreseen SoftBank 
specifically. 

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I should have been. 
Yeah, this is October 24. 

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I, I should have said and you 
know, SoftBank hasn't even 

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sufficiently marked it up and 
obviously until they top ticket,

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the bears are not safe. 
I'm still holding on to bear 

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case at 1:57. 
I mean, obviously it's easier to

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transact private market stocks. 
So there's an argument that I 

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was just wrong because should 
have invested, pulled a thrive 

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invested 157. 
I don't know that they're 

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selling, but you know, you could
exit the position potentially in

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the next round. 
And so there's certainly people 

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who are riding a momentum stock 
and there's plenty of money to 

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be made there. 
But if we're talking on a sort 

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of four year time horizon or a 
sort of long term settled out 

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public market price, yeah, yeah,
I I still I think I'm in the 

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bare case. 
I mean, if you review what I 

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said here are the bullets money 
losing machine. 

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It's a company that loses a lot 
of money. 

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Tenuous and expensive 
intelligence pole position. 

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Man, we've talked about that a 
lot. 

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We had the DeepSeek moment this 
year. 

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Anthropic keeps getting better, 
there's serious competition, 

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Google has one of the top models
at the moment. 

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It is a tenuous and expensive 
intelligence, pole position, 

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talent exodus, Altmans 
limitations and Open AI's weak 

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alliances. 
I mean I do think the Microsoft 

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relationship continues to be a 
little muddled. 

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I mean, Sam is depending more 
and more on Brad, the Chief 

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Operating Officer and Sarah 
Fryer. 

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It'll be interesting to see. 
I don't, I don't know as much 

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about them. 
So I'm excited to see. 

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I mean, I know Sarah Fryer. 
I don't know Brad. 

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Brad Lightcap, he was running 
the investment fund out of Open 

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AI that was backing some early 
stage AI companies. 

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I talked to him briefly about 
that one time. 

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He seemed, yeah, he seems legit.
In that, yeah, he's the chief 

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operating officer, clearly 
important guy. 

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On top of all of that, they are 
a non profit company being sued 

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by Elon Musk that has not made 
the transition to being a for 

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profit and it's an insane risk 
factor. 

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And also Elon is now one of the 
most politically powerful people

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in the world. 
Obviously Altman's, you know, 

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work in his own relationship 
with the Trump people, but. 

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I'm going to come in and make 
the bull case for this round. 

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Yes, the price is crazy, I won't
deny you there, but they have 

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really, really upped their sales
game. 

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I mean just the demand there's 
already I think they saw reports

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that they people have already 
generated 700 million images 

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just since they launched within 
the last few days the image 

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generator tool, right people are
clearly. 

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Madeline usage means they spend 
more money. 

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Yes, it's good to have customers
want something you wanna do, but

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you give something if it costs 
more to deliver it. 

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Obviously they will have to find
some way to financialize and 

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make some money off of all of 
their demand. 

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But in the classic Silicon 
Valley form, you get the users 

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1st and then figure out how to 
make money later, right? 

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Like that's how this always goes
and I think they've captured the

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market in especially in consumer
like there is no Chapel hot that

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comes close to them. 
Enterprise is a little bit 

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rougher. 
Like obviously there's like, you

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know, more competition there. 
Anthropic is really popular, has

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a really popular API. 
It's a little bit more varied 

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DeepSeek. 
Obviously we've talked to death,

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but I do think in the consumer 
market, people love Chachi PT 

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that is the killer AI app. 
There really has not been 

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anything that's come close to 
it. 

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And so I think they have kind of
like lightning in a bottle with 

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their product and they're like 
the main productizers. 

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So I could see this being worth 
it at some point. 

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Yeah, I mean, I agree with 
everything you're saying. 

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You know, I've personally 
probably spent 300 bucks on Open

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AI, you know, because I paid 
$200 for their ultra premium 

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version and then subscribe to 
the Plus version. 

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So they're clearly making money.
I mean, they deliver value and I

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do think, you know, there's no 
question. 

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It's not like sort of Uber, you 
know, they never really proved 

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out like pool for example, feels
like for sure they're going to 

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be able to figure out a way to 
make Studio Ghibli photos in 

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profitable way. 
To me it's more of the is that 

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commoditized do sort of 
specialized apps when and the 

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final creative bear case that I 
will make if open AI does too 

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well that like say we are an AGI
and it still this sort of 

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nonprofit like are they really 
going to be able to like harvest

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everything or is it going to be 
like you were set up to be for 

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the benefit of the world. 
Now you have the world 

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controlling technology. 
Are they really going to be 

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allowed to be the $2 trillion 
company that runs the only sort 

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of non human competitive 
intelligence? 

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That being said, opening I I 
think is really going to work to

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make this for profit conversion 
work. 

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They'll lose half of this 
funding round if they don't, 

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right? 
So they're working around the 

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block. 
They want it, definitely, yeah, 

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there's no question about that. 
From the biggest funding round 

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of the year to the juiciest 
espionage spy drama of the year.

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So I had a fun story this week. 
I'm going to give you the brief 

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facts so that you remember where
this all started with a rippling

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lawsuit, right? 
So it's like Rippling, the 

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company run by Parker Conrad, 
the sexiest, you know, payroll 

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and company information, you 
know, like internal corporate 

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management company you could 
have It's so. 

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Funny that this all like came 
down over just like specifically

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00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:28,800
payroll. 
Well, that's what's funny about 

227
00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,200
it. 
It's a very boring sector. 

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00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,880
You know, you got Rippling and 
Deal competing with each other. 

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00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,240
Deal is the company backed by 
Entries and Horowitz. 

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00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,440
The firm that screwed over 
Parker Conrad is Old Companies, 

231
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,040
these benefits. 
So you have all sorts of 

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00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,000
competing alliances and Deal and
Rippling, they hate each other, 

233
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,640
clearly. 
So Rippling then drops this 

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00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,720
lawsuit and says Deal has been 
spying on us. 

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00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,880
We had this employee, it was 
working for us and feeding 

236
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,520
information to Deal, which was 
like a pretty crazy explosive 

237
00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,400
allegation. 
And then even crazier is 

238
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,840
basically Rippling says, we know
this for sure because we set up 

239
00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,680
a trap and we suggested the 
idea. 

240
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,720
We sent a letter to three deal 
executives and like, I think 

241
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,000
they're outside counsel and 
mentioned a particular term that

242
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,200
we hadn't sort of mentioned 
anywhere else, a fake Slack 

243
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,760
channel. 
And then that mole, though, the 

244
00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,280
spy searched frantically for it 
in our Slack channels. 

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00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,760
And, you know, obviously was 
like totally made-up, but he 

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00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,040
wouldn't have been able to hear 
about it if not for sending this

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00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,880
to the executives. 
And then we went to confront the

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00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,480
guy. 
He's in the bathroom and they're

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00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,920
like, hey, we've got like a 
court order and like a court 

250
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,800
representative here that says 
you need to hand over your cell 

251
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,520
phone. 
And the guys basically like, 

252
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:47,000
I'm, you know, there was some 
interplay, like, I can't find 

253
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:48,200
it. 
But eventually it's like I'm 

254
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,480
willing to take the risk and 
sort of fled the scene. 

255
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,720
It is wild that like, this is 
maybe the first case of like a 

256
00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,320
Slack orchestrated sting 
operation I've ever heard of. 

257
00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,400
Like, Oh my God, the honeypot 
trap. 

258
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,600
The Slack Channel, their sexiest
spy thriller breaking down on 

259
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,080
Slack. 
And so, you know, this was 

260
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,640
already like a great story. 
We'd gotten far more than we 

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00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,520
ever deserve in the boring world
of, you know, writing about sort

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00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,440
of payroll startups. 
And then this week this is all 

263
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,080
playing out, by the way, in 
Ireland like this employees, I 

264
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,920
think in Ireland. 
So the guy's name is Keith 

265
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,520
O'Brien. 
He is the alleged spy mole sort 

266
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,080
of whatever we're calling him. 
And according to sworn 

267
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:34,160
affidavit, he confessed like in 
court, basically he was like, 

268
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,160
yes, this is all true. 
And not just is this true, but I

269
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,560
was coordinating with the CEO of
deal. 

270
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,840
Like, like literally we were 
like going back and forth. 

271
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:50,280
And also, he was only getting 
paid $5000 a month for this. 

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00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:56,080
So it's like $60,000 a year to, 
like, do what seems clearly like

273
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,760
criminal, you know, just for 
like, some small amount of 

274
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,840
money. 
The CEO of Deal, Alex Bozes, 

275
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,760
likened what Keith was doing to 
mean like, James Bond. 

276
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,640
And again, like if you're James 
Bond, you need more than $5000 a

277
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,360
month. 
Anything else stand out to you? 

278
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:16,240
I mean, I feel like first of 
all, just glossing over that in 

279
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,680
the chat with Boise is there's 
also his father, Philippe deals 

280
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,680
CFO and this mysterious figure 
named the watchman not explained

281
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,080
what's going on there. 
This is just like like Deep 

282
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,000
Throat, but like boring. 
I don't know. 

283
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,320
Do you watch Billions? 
You're watching Billions. 

284
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,800
There's a there's a character in
Billions who's like this sort of

285
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,480
like hatchet man basically for. 
Is he the watchman? 

286
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,040
Yeah, I feel it feels like that 
sort of role. 

287
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,120
Yeah. 
You have to imagine all these 

288
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,120
like, by the way, all these 
executives like watching like 

289
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,960
the villains on TV being like, 
oh, I guess that's how business 

290
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,160
is done. 
We need our like corporate spy. 

291
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,240
You know, it's like it's very 
like, are we the baddies or more

292
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:57,680
like that's the model for. 
Sure. 

293
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,120
And I'm it's just still not over
the fact that Deal's lawyer 

294
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,360
allegedly told O'Brien to 
destroy evidence where he 

295
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,880
smashed his phone with an axe 
and flushed down the toilet. 

296
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,640
Allegedly whenever you make 
allegations like that against a 

297
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,280
lawyer, you got this shout like 
allegedly a billion times. 

298
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,680
But yeah, it is a pretty strong 
allegation to say their lawyer 

299
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,440
was in any way involved because 
that's that's not good. 

300
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,240
You know, absolutely not. 
And of course, you know, 

301
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,760
allegedly Keith O'Brien has 
claimed in his confession that, 

302
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,600
you know, he was coached by 
Deals legal team to shift the 

303
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,320
narrative here. 
And they were they were like 

304
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,120
suggesting he like potentially 
like flee to the Middle East. 

305
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,920
I'm sincerely excited to see 
deals response like. 

306
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,200
I know deals been quiet this 
whole time. 

307
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,120
This is a wild case of 
accusations that they have not 

308
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,880
yet commented on. 
Most of this, again, of course, 

309
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,920
is coming from this confessional
and the rippling lawsuit, right?

310
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:50,880
So what are they going to say 
about this? 

311
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:52,560
But also, how do you come back 
from this? 

312
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,760
Like even if like this is some 
degree, if it's proven untrue, 

313
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,440
like where did you land in the 
court of public opinion after 

314
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,960
all of this as a. 
Company I can't claim to totally

315
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,680
understand. 
Keith O'Brien and all this. 

316
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,960
I'm sure they'll be reporting at
some point being like, how does 

317
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,400
this guy totally flip? 
Fascinating. 

318
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,920
Also this week, Politico 
reported that Elon is exiting 

319
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,680
the Trump White House in the 
coming weeks. 

320
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,680
Oh my gosh, the number two guy 
moving on out. 

321
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,240
Define coming weeks. 
Nobody else is saying this is 

322
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,480
the coming weeks sooner than 
late May or early June when 

323
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,240
Elon's special advisor status is
supposed to end and he sort of 

324
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,600
signaled that. 
Maybe I'll wrap it up by then. 

325
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,480
The administration is not flat 
out denying the story, but 

326
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,520
they've reported back to that, 
you know, signifier initially 

327
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,360
that was like, this is always 
going to end. 

328
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,120
So it's not like a full denial, 
but that's kind of the thing. 

329
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,640
So maybe it's just like they're 
saying he's not extending upon 

330
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:48,960
this. 
But I guess the main thing was 

331
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,240
there was like ruffles around, 
you know, how well Elon and 

332
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,280
Trump are really getting along, 
which was sort of the intrigue 

333
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,960
they're going for. 
I almost wonder if tariffs like 

334
00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,760
are good for Elon because it's 
like this, this one isn't his 

335
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,200
problem. 
And like, he was generating a 

336
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,440
ton of negative press with like,
Doge. 

337
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,920
And just like, you know, they're
destroying random things. 

338
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,680
You could also make the case 
that he, like, lost that 

339
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,240
Wisconsin race. 
Right. 

340
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:13,160
Oh, my God. 
Exactly. 

341
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:14,560
Right. 
Yeah, exactly. 

342
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,079
He not only did he lose it like,
fine, they were going to lose 

343
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:18,720
it. 
It's classic politics that you 

344
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,079
don't say I'm staking my whole 
reputation and the whole world 

345
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:27,079
hangs on this race if you can't 
probably pull it out, you know 

346
00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:28,440
what I mean? 
It's just like, why? 

347
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,360
Why raise the stakes of some 
random Wisconsin Supreme Court 

348
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:33,720
case? 
Like, I understand it has 

349
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:36,960
implications for like, members 
of Congress and like, it's 

350
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,400
important, but why put your 
whole reputation behind it if 

351
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:41,680
you know anything about 
politics? 

352
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:43,520
It was a little bizarre. 
For sure. 

353
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,320
So anyway, that's not looking so
hot for him. 

354
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:49,160
And they're saying he could, you
know, stay on as some kind of 

355
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,960
advisor in some capacity. 
Still, it's not like he's going 

356
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,240
completely away and leaving DC. 
I can't imagine that's going to 

357
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,120
happen unless he has like a 
major Trump ego clash. 

358
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,280
But that hasn't happened yet. 
I'm not sure that that's going 

359
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,840
to happen given that they've 
done so well together. 

360
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,080
This as far well-being a very 
relative term given everything 

361
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,320
we just discussed. 
But in terms of the rumors 

362
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,760
about, you know, the big 
personality billionaires 

363
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,680
eventually just going to flame 
out like that has not borne out 

364
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:17,920
yet. 
So I wanted to bring up what 

365
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,600
Elon's doing here is what he did
at Twitter, right? 

366
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,640
People talk about it. 
He's like running the Twitter 

367
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,880
playbook in government. 
And so the Twitter playbook, the

368
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,240
similarities are you come in, 
you RIP everything out and some 

369
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,920
things break and then you put 
those back in. 

370
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:36,640
But if nothing really breaks, 
you're like, oh, that wasn't 

371
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,080
that important. 
We just saved a whole lot of 

372
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:39,920
money. 
We got rid of it. 

373
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:41,840
And it's at least a way to cut 
costs. 

374
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,440
It doesn't necessarily drive 
revenue. 

375
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,680
And I don't think the federal 
government is going to have a 

376
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,880
hypey foundation model company 
that we can merge with to save 

377
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,880
everything. 
But putting putting even that 

378
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,240
aside, if we're just running the
Twitter cost cutting playbook, a

379
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,200
key part of it is that you sort 
of like get the feedback from 

380
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,080
the world and you feel like, oh,
we we cut Social Security. 

381
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,280
Did that. 
Do people get really upset? 

382
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,720
You know, and I feel like 
government and society is slower

383
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,600
and bigger than Twitter, right? 
It's not like looking at code, 

384
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,480
did the app break or like 
waiting till Disney like calls 

385
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,720
you shouting about something. 
And so, like, I don't see how 

386
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,400
Elon can expect to run even in 
the most charitable sense, this 

387
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:31,000
Twitter playbook, an exit by 
late May or early June because 

388
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,880
there's no way he's going to 
have the feedback to know like, 

389
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,040
oh, we should put back the 
pieces and he hasn't cut the 

390
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:38,640
budget, you know, as the other 
besides. 

391
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,840
Besides, he doesn't know if he 
should put anything back, and he

392
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,480
hasn't even achieved the savings
he's supposed to. 

393
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,360
We should remember the Doge, you
know, savings website 

394
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:49,480
continually being debunked. 
So the savings aren't even what 

395
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,720
they're saying they're doing. 
Are you making the point, Eric 

396
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,240
here, that government and 
businesses are run differently 

397
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,040
and you don't actually run the 
government like a business? 

398
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,800
They're they're different, 
right? 

399
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,080
The, the, the metaphor isn't 
very good. 

400
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,400
Perhaps yes, it it does feel 
like that whole argument is 

401
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,600
basically like if USAD was so 
important, Elon and Trump 

402
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,760
personally would hear people 
psychologically like, you know, 

403
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,400
making would be so upset. 
It's like, oh, I'm, I'm such an 

404
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,560
elite disconnected from people 
who are hurt by my decisions 

405
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,880
that I don't feel it. 
And therefore that is proof that

406
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,440
it has no impact. 
Is like exactly the problem at 

407
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,800
the end of the day. 
We are going to be able to judge

408
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,720
their success because they're 
not very transparent about all 

409
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,560
the details on just like did the
deficit go up or did it go down?

410
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,880
And I think it's clear that the 
deficit is going to go up. 

411
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,640
Yeah, if you're combining this 
with tax cuts, yeah. 

412
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:46,680
And if you're combining it with 
cutting revenue, you know, like 

413
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,720
IRS agents and like other ways 
to make things in. 

414
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,600
And if you're sort of hurting 
the economy by putting a bunch 

415
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,760
of people out of jobs, like 
it's, it's not if tax cuts are 

416
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,400
part of it, but it's also like 
the things that they're doing 

417
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:03,480
with Dodge are going to hurt our
ability to collect revenue, Have

418
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,960
people employed, have a strong 
economy that produces taxes. 

419
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,360
I, I want Elon to stick around 
because I think he should finish

420
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:14,160
the job, like prove that it can 
do it, not just say, oh, I, I 

421
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,240
tried, I hit the deadline. 
I got to get out of here. 

422
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,320
You know, it's like, do the 
thing you said you're going to 

423
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,280
do if you're, if it's so great, 
you know, I mean, I'm still in 

424
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,080
the like, run, run the country 
your way. 

425
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,840
I mean, we're getting it right 
now with tariffs. 

426
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,480
Notably, a lot of the VCs that 
are, you know, also involved in 

427
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,000
these efforts are not part of 
this exiting plan. 

428
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,640
So I can assume right like 
Sriram and some other people may

429
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,400
stick around The A16Z people 
doesn't seem like they're 

430
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,280
leaving anytime soon. 
Scott Cooper, you know who is a 

431
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,880
top guy to Andrews and Horowitz?
I still think he hasn't even 

432
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,200
been confirmed yet. 
I like him. 

433
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,800
We can we can bring this episode
full circle, honestly. 

434
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,680
So Parker Conrad, the CEO of 
Rippling, the one going after a 

435
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:55,160
deal, was also in my piece after
the election saying like, this 

436
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,120
seems like a disaster, but like 
a godspeed. 

437
00:21:58,120 --> 00:21:59,800
I wish you the best for the 
country. 

438
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,520
But Parker to me was like, you 
know, they're probably going to 

439
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,680
get their faces ripped off like 
everybody does with Trump. 

440
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,840
And he specifically made the 
point everybody thinks Trump is 

441
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,320
going to do their crazy thing, 
but then he does, you know, some

442
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,720
other crazy thing instead. 
So anyway, Parker tweeted today,

443
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,960
I hope we don't forget Marc 
Andreessen's grand proclamation 

444
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,400
about the economic coiled spring
that would be unleashed with the

445
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,320
Trump presidency. 
It's like, yeah, exactly where 

446
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:25,800
is it? 
That's our episode. 

447
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,280
Stick around. 
I'm I have a conversation with 

448
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:34,200
the CEO of Clay, the top company
on our mid stage enterprise 30 

449
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,520
list with Wing and a fun 
conversation digging into his go

450
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,560
to market AI company. 
Give it a listen. 

451
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:47,160
I'm here with Kareem Amin, the 
CEO of clay #1 mid stage company

452
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,120
on the enterprise 30 list that 
we did with Wing. 

453
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,360
And so this is our second video 
after talking to Paul Klein, the

454
00:22:55,360 --> 00:23:00,320
browser based CEO digging into 
companies that you know are now 

455
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,720
thrust on my radar that where 
I'm like, oh, I want to know 

456
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,280
everything about what you guys 
are doing. 

457
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,760
Kareem and I were on a panel the
other day at NASDAQ celebrating 

458
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,480
the Wing 30 list and happy to 
have you on the podcast. 

459
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,040
Hey, hey, Kareem. 
Yeah. 

460
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:17,520
Thanks for having me, Eric. 
Great. 

461
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,920
Well, yeah, so I think, you 
know, we sort of want to get to 

462
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,720
like how did, how did you get to
#1 on the mid stage list? 

463
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,880
And then where you're going, you
know, the best place to start is

464
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,200
how, how is Clay founded? 
And I think, you know, you, you 

465
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,480
guys have been at this a while. 
Yeah. 

466
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,640
Tell me about the the early 
days. 

467
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,360
Yeah. 
So we started a over maybe just 

468
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:41,520
seven years ago and the 
motivating idea was how do we 

469
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,760
give the power of programming to
an order of magnitude more 

470
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,520
people? 
So we were very much in this 

471
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,000
continuation of the idea of how 
do you make programming 

472
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,600
accessible. 
And the reason we wanted to do 

473
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,200
that is that we knew that if you
could essentially have that 

474
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,400
power, you would be able to 
level up kind of like the work, 

475
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,640
the type of work that you're 
doing and just have access to 

476
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,640
capturing a lot of more of that 
value. 

477
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:10,080
And we were anticipating that 
there will be more and more kind

478
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,280
of like AI set of features that 
would automate work. 

479
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,480
Obviously we were not kind of 
like seeing that LMS would be. 

480
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,040
What year the way to do that was
clay from? 

481
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,480
2017. 
Yeah. 

482
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,120
And who is this first customer 
type? 

483
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,800
Great question. 
I think when you look back at 

484
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,280
it, yeah, you do need to have a 
clear customer and you need to 

485
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,480
have all of like, like who's 
your Tam and all of that stuff. 

486
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,760
But I don't think that most 
people, I think that's just one 

487
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,400
way of like articulating your 
idea. 

488
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,160
Like we started it off from what
is it that we want to have in 

489
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,560
the world? 
And then we thought, OK, well, 

490
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,320
if we want to give the power of 
programming to more people, do 

491
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,080
we want to give it to engineers 
and make them a lot faster? 

492
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,680
Or do we want to give it to non 
engineers? 

493
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,000
And we started kind of exploring
to see like what is possible at 

494
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,240
that time time, there was 
already things called 

495
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,040
programming by example. 
So in Excel, and I haven't 

496
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,320
talked about this actually 
before, but you could go in and 

497
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,600
let's say that you had like a 
phone number and some of it was 

498
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,920
missing the brackets around the 
first 3 digits. 

499
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,600
You could add it and you show 
kind of Excel like, OK, you add 

500
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,200
it once and it can add it to all
of them. 

501
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,800
But sometimes it would add a 
double bracket. 

502
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,880
So you go delete that one. 
And now it learns, OK, if 

503
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,360
there's a double bracket, don't 
do that. 

504
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,560
And so we started to say, OK, 
there's going to be more and 

505
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,720
more ways to program by example,
to program by showing the 

506
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,400
machine what you want. 
And we were kind of exploring 

507
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,640
like, what is it? 
What's possible today? 

508
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,160
We eventually decided that 
actually it's much, much more 

509
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,160
powerful to give it to non 
engineers. 

510
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,480
And we started thinking about 
like, what are the metaphors 

511
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,040
that people understand? 
And decided, OK, the 

512
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,800
spreadsheet's the world's most 
popular programming environment.

513
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,080
And Google made it 
collaborative. 

514
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,000
So many people could work on it 
at the same time. 

515
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,360
But the next step was to make it
connected to all of the 

516
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,040
internet's data. 
And so that's kind of like how 

517
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,680
we came to Clay because once 
once we did that, we were like, 

518
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,960
well, who is going to use this 
And there could be financial 

519
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,240
analysts or there could be 
people building lists. 

520
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:07,760
When we looked at people 
building lists, it was 

521
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,280
recruiters, salespeople, 
marketers, customer success 

522
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,560
people. 
And so we decided to focus it on

523
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,120
a go to market teams. 
So I, I think at the end of the 

524
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:19,360
day, you need to focus it on who
you're selling it to, to get the

525
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:23,280
product going to build the 
business, but it's ultimately in

526
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,720
service of this bigger. 
Goal and so just the core 

527
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,840
customer action so that people 
just understand yeah, are we 

528
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,960
going to use the product the way
that most people use it First 

529
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,960
off is what. 
The core customer action is you 

530
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,400
want to grow your business, 
right? 

531
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,800
And to grow your business, you 
need to build a list of 

532
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,760
potential new customers or 
existing customers that you want

533
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,880
to reach out to. 
And you need to figure out what 

534
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,160
properties predict that 
someone's going to be a good 

535
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,120
customer. 
So Clay allows you to aggregate 

536
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:56,240
all the data sources on the 
Internet to build the list of 

537
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,480
potential customers that you 
want a message. 

538
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,720
Using those data points, you can
figure out what you're going to 

539
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,560
say to them. 
So let's say you find all the 

540
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,880
people on the Internet who don't
have SoC 2 compliance, but are 

541
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,880
SAS companies that have been 
built and you sell a SoC 2 

542
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,040
compliance product. 
And that's a perfect moment for 

543
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,920
you to reach out to them. 
So was that possible pre LLM or 

544
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:16,720
how much? 
How much of the product really 

545
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,520
existed before through the model
explosion? 

546
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,800
Yeah, it was totally possible. 
Pre LMS, there were all these 

547
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,600
different data providers that 
scrape data from the web and 

548
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,920
packaged what was difficult. 
So that's what we did first was 

549
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,000
say OK, like why use one data 
provider when you can use all of

550
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,840
them? 
And it depends on what you're 

551
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:37,160
looking for, which data you need
and make it makes it easier for 

552
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,600
you to work with that data to 
build the list. 

553
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,000
What LMS made it possible to do 
was to then also get unique data

554
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,840
properties that no data provider
kind of had. 

555
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,000
So let's say you want to say I 
want to find all companies that 

556
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,760
have remote offices in South 
America, right? 

557
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,200
And maybe that information you 
could kind of extract from 

558
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,360
existing data providers, but it 
would take a lot of work. 

559
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,960
You would have to say, okay, do 
they have an office in South 

560
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,520
America and an office outside? 
And where's the headquarters? 

561
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,960
And that means that they have a 
remote office in South America. 

562
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,800
So it extracted a lot more value
out of these data sets that 

563
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,480
you'd gotten together because 
there's exactly logic and sort 

564
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,280
of pulling out pieces. 
Yeah. 

565
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,840
And you could do more real time 
things, right? 

566
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,280
So you could say check if this 
company has the logos of some of

567
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,080
our current existing customers, 
right. 

568
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,880
So you can do things that maybe 
you'd have humans SDR's normally

569
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,040
do. 
Do customers pay to use all the 

570
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,880
different data sources or you 
just license it yourself and 

571
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,720
they it's subtracted away from 
them? 

572
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,440
Or how much interaction do they 
have with? 

573
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,200
Yeah, we have an interesting 
model here. 

574
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,720
So basically you can use most of
the data sources using clay 

575
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,800
credits, right? 
Because we have licenses with 

576
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,880
them. 
If you already have the contract

577
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:47,920
or agreement to the data 
provider, you could just use 

578
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,880
your API key and click and it's 
free to do so. 

579
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,440
So our idea is very much a 
collaboration with data 

580
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,400
providers. 
We focus on a segment of the 

581
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,640
market that they don't normally 
have the resources to sell to. 

582
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,040
And some of the data providers 
are smaller and they have really

583
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,720
high quality data, but they just
don't have the full UI or go to 

584
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,040
market team to sell it. 
So and the other thing is once a

585
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,680
customer grows big enough, we 
prefer that they actually have a

586
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,840
connection to the data provider 
and they have a direct kind of 

587
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,520
like contract and API Q with 
them. 

588
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,680
Our belief is that, yeah, we 
don't sell, We don't necessarily

589
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,440
make the money off of selling 
the data. 

590
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,720
It's how you make use of the 
data to create a campaign that 

591
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,600
we think is like where we 
provide value. 

592
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,240
Yeah. 
And then on sort of the content 

593
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,080
generation side and sort of the 
outreach scheduling, how much 

594
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,600
are humans in the loop or like 
how much is it sort of still a 

595
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,880
human firing off emails versus 
setting all these triggers or 

596
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,560
how do you think about that? 
The way we think about it as 

597
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,800
humans are there to come up with
the ideas like which triggers 

598
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,640
when, how often, to whom, we 
just facilitate doing all of 

599
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,600
that work. 
So the way to think about clay 

600
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,320
is like if Figma is for 
designers, clay is for go to 

601
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,720
market teams. 
You're still involved, but it's 

602
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,640
a creative tool that allows you 
to express your idea quickly. 

603
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:02,760
We don't necessarily believe 
that there is one solution that 

604
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,680
fits all or that there's like 
one magic button that you should

605
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,440
turn on and let it go. 
You have to constantly be 

606
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,520
iterating on who are you? 
What are the guesses that you 

607
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,520
think makes a good customer and 
what predicts that? 

608
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,120
What should you be saying to 
them? 

609
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,080
Your products are changing, 
their products and their needs 

610
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,080
are changing. 
So you need to stay up to date 

611
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:22,880
and you also need to stand out 
from the crowd. 

612
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,880
Does. 
This only work if it's like, oh,

613
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,600
I can sort of AB test my 
customers and there's a huge 

614
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,200
universe like if I have a 
business where I'm sort of like 

615
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,320
whale hunting is AI is useful 
where it makes sense to focus a 

616
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,320
lot of total energy in 
particular. 

617
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,760
Right, because it's not just for
outbound, right? 

618
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,600
Clay is letting you build, let's
say, a deep research dossier 

619
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,080
about this customer, right? 
You might want to figure out, 

620
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,280
you know, who are all the how 
many people have they hired in a

621
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,840
particular department? 
What is their organizational 

622
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,880
structure? 
What have they been publishing 

623
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:54,600
lately? 
Right? 

624
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,080
You can look at their financial 
statements that are public. 

625
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,040
So what are their actions 
online? 

626
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,000
What are they doing on social? 
You can like do social listening

627
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,600
and you don't have to send them 
a message. 

628
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,040
You could send all of that 
information to your own team. 

629
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,560
The other the other thing is 
that, you know, I think of 

630
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,840
outbound as similar to 
advertising. 

631
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,800
So Coca-Cola still advertises 
you need to have it on your 

632
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:15,640
mind. 
So just you need multiple touch 

633
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,280
points for someone to know who 
you are right and why you 

634
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,760
matter. 
So and even example in clay 

635
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,080
isn't just to be used to find 
new customers. 

636
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,080
It's also to expand your 
existing customers. 

637
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,280
So imagine that your Figma, you 
release this new product dev 

638
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,000
mode and maybe you reach out to 
all of your customers who have a

639
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,200
lot of designers, but you know 
they none of the engineers have 

640
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:39,520
onboarded. 
And you figure out who their 

641
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,360
head of engineering is. 
And you message them and say, 

642
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,680
hey, your designers are building
a lot in Figma. 

643
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,400
Should your developers be using 
it too? 

644
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,400
Do you send the actual e-mail 
through Clay? 

645
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,960
And so we basically connect to a
bunch of third parties to send 

646
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,080
the e-mail, but we have an 
interface that allows you to 

647
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,040
draft it and figure out what 
you're doing. 

648
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,560
And the reason we we stay kind 
of separated from the channels 

649
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,720
is that people do all kinds of 
things with Clay. 

650
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,080
So there are companies that send
physical mail with Clay, that 

651
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,200
send gifts, personalized gifts 
that have created personalized 

652
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,600
websites so you can people have 
created personalized ads. 

653
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,960
So we're kind of agnostic about 
where the end channel is. 

654
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,240
You've obviously been 
intentional about the product 

655
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,600
besides sort of coming up with a
great feature set like what's 

656
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,200
what explains your like 
explosive growth at the moment 

657
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,680
or what, what would you point to
that sort of like really 

658
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,000
clicking for clay and why you're
having this moment where 

659
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,080
investors are so excited about 
what you're doing? 

660
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,360
I think investors are excited 
because they see kind of the 

661
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,320
potential that is made possible 
through Clay. 

662
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:46,600
So if you're every company needs
to grow, right and there are 

663
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,280
only three ways to grow, you 
either find new customers, you 

664
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,920
convert existing ones or you 
expand existing ones. 

665
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:53,960
Clay helps with all three, 
right? 

666
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:59,240
But we found a particular kind 
of gap in the market, which is 

667
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,720
that most schools in go to 
market want to sell you a 

668
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,800
solution that helps you 
automatically grow your company.

669
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,120
It's sold to reps or people who 
are on the front line and lets 

670
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,000
them kind of pull a list quickly
and send some messages. 

671
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,320
Whereas what Clay does is it 
assumes that there is a new type

672
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,920
of role, Rev OPS, growth 
marketing, we call them go to 

673
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,440
market engineers. 
And we think that AI has 

674
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,840
actually enabled this new role 
that's going to be be really 

675
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,360
well paid and really expensive. 
That is a more technical person 

676
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,360
that can take on that job and 
can 10X the whole team and that 

677
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,360
and you don't need to AB test 
things, right? 

678
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,240
It doesn't have to be that 
scientific. 

679
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,760
It's mostly like you have an 
idea, we can turn it into 

680
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,480
reality quickly. 
And so we're a very, I think 

681
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,480
we're the first creative tool in
the go to market space that 

682
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,040
actually allows you to speed up 
any idea to reality. 

683
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,240
And you can apply that for sales
or for marketing or customer 

684
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,640
success. 
So the Tam is huge and people 

685
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,680
are making a lot of money using 
clay and also getting promoted 

686
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,760
using clay. 
So that's why customers like it.

687
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,760
If you get this tool, you're 
gonna, yeah, get a promotion. 

688
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:14,199
On the flip side, is it hard to 
get a company to embrace a new 

689
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:18,440
tool when you say you need 
really to rethink what employees

690
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,560
you have, if you have clay or 
like that's normally it's like 

691
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,719
we want to meet, meet you where 
you are so that you're excited. 

692
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,320
We meet you where you are right,
like the the role already 

693
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,360
exists. 
It's it's called Rev OPS. 

694
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,280
I think it's just evolving. 
Also advanced AES or SDR's can 

695
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,159
pick it up. 
So it's basically you start off 

696
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:41,080
where you are and then you can 
essentially parlay it into this 

697
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,520
job once you prove that it's 
working. 

698
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,880
So we tend to kind of meet 
people where they are and then 

699
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,760
they quickly find that they're 
getting results. 

700
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,480
And then it transforms into, and
don't forget that this is the 

701
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,000
particular moment where people 
are willing to experiment 

702
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,640
because they're like, what is 
our go to market strategy with 

703
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,240
AI? 
And the answer is you should be 

704
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:01,640
using clay. 
What can you say about number of

705
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,840
customers, size, the business 
employees, whatever snapshot you

706
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:05,640
can give? 
Right. 

707
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:10,320
So the last public numbers that 
we gave out was were in the 

708
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:15,520
forums article and we announced 
our raise at 1.25 billion and we

709
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,680
had 5000 customers and over 30 
million ARR and we've grown 

710
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,200
substantially since then. 
The jobs question, I mean, do 

711
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,080
you, do you have an intuition on
whether AI is going to reduce 

712
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,280
the number of jobs or from your 
sector? 

713
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,560
Like how I mean if you sort of, 
you know, 10 Xing or more the 

714
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,840
capacity of an employee, does 
that sort of imply fewer 

715
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,720
employees or how do you think 
about that? 

716
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:44,400
My current sense is very much 
embodied in like things that are

717
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,640
like previous technologies that 
we've encountered. 

718
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,160
So, you know, when you build 
more roads, you just get more 

719
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,360
cars. 
I think that our system is set 

720
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,760
up to, regardless of the 
efficiency gains, to do more. 

721
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,360
And so let's say we get more 
efficiency games. 

722
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,280
Well, we're just going to want 
to try to grow faster. 

723
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,040
We're not going to say, OK, 
great, now we can grow as fast 

724
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,560
as we did with fewer people. 
I think some people will do 

725
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,400
that. 
And hence you have a lot of 

726
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,920
people coming out saying, oh, 
we're going to build like, you 

727
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,680
know, 10% company with like 10 
million per employee. 

728
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,120
And maybe you're satisfied with 
that. 

729
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,320
But I think there's going to 
always be competition at the top

730
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,640
for markets where a winner takes
all, where you will try to do 

731
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,200
more. 
So I don't think that you will 

732
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,080
have fewer people. 
I think you will have more 

733
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,000
productive people in certain 
elements of the business and you

734
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,560
will find new areas where you 
want where things weren't doable

735
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,000
before, it weren't worthwhile. 
The other thing is I think a lot

736
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,680
of the current predictions are 
predicated on LLM's becoming one

737
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,600
to two orders of magnitude 
better. 

738
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,280
And I think that that is 
different, right? 

739
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,080
If it becomes 2 orders of 
magnitude better, I do think 

740
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,360
many of the jobs will become 
less needed, but I'm not totally

741
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,080
sure. 
I don't have an intuition on 

742
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,880
where we are towards that. 
Do you spend a lot of time as 

743
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,960
the CEO of a very forward 
thinking AI application company 

744
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,520
gaming out like AGI strategy or 
so much of the business is like 

745
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,320
new model comes out, figure out 
how to make use of it and we 

746
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,360
react when they come or like how
much is there sort of like war 

747
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,400
gaming going on inside clay 
about what the capacity is going

748
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,320
to be. 
I think you know what I've told 

749
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,200
the team in general is 90% of 
your time should be executing 

750
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,920
10% meta reflecting on anything,
otherwise you're wasting your 

751
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,280
time. 
And so we're focused on 

752
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,640
delivering with what we have 
now. 

753
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,200
There's already a lot and 10% of
the time we think about the 

754
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,440
future and what are the possible
kind of options. 

755
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,400
But regardless of what the 
options are, we will be in a 

756
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,920
better place the more successful
we are right now. 

757
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,680
Right, Yeah, to make a decision 
the what how do you think about,

758
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,760
you know, I, so I use Superhuman
a lot. 

759
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,200
Yeah, different, different 
products interested in using 

760
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,760
clay. 
I every, every sales product or,

761
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,920
you know, could be a reporter 
tool. 

762
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,520
And obviously, you know, we, we 
have customers too now. 

763
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,800
But, you know, Superhuman or 
e-mail providers that can feel a

764
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,080
little bit like you're fueling a
war on both sides where it's 

765
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,600
like you're making it easier to 
e-mail people, but you're also 

766
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,080
making it easier to like then 
filter out sort of the emails. 

767
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:14,800
How do you think about it with 
your product? 

768
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,120
I mean, you're sort of you're 
more focused on arming sort of 

769
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,240
one side of the equation. 
But do you think, oh, there's 

770
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:22,200
just going to be another AI 
company on the other end that's 

771
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,720
making out filtering out all 
this like emails estimate that 

772
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:26,880
I'm going to receive? 
Yeah, yeah. 

773
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,240
But I think we're so, yeah. 
I mean, I love Superhuman and 

774
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:32,000
Raoul. 
I think they've done a great 

775
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,840
job. 
I think that you know that. 

776
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,960
Have you ever heard of the idea 
of the Red Queen? 

777
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,200
I think there's a yeah. 
It's been a while, I feel like 

778
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,360
it came up with Uber context. 
Right. 

779
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,440
I think, I think the author was 
met rightly. 

780
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:45,440
The idea is that, you know, the 
Red Queen keeps running and 

781
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,720
stays in the same place, right? 
So, and I think it was about the

782
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:52,440
viruses and like human genomes 
and like you're constantly 

783
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,160
changing and and meeting it. 
So there's always this cat and 

784
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,440
mouse game. 
I think it just depends on how 

785
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,840
you approach it, right. 
So we are not thinking about how

786
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,880
do we give people the power to 
send more messages. 

787
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,160
Quite the opposite. 
We think that you should be 

788
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,400
doing deeper research ahead of 
time, send fewer messages, do it

789
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,680
over time, right? 
You don't want to blast your 

790
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,880
whole tan or all of your 
customers. 

791
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:17,480
You don't even know if it's 
going to work. 

792
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,800
So you should pick smaller 
segments that are deeply 

793
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,960
researched, spend the time 
deeply researching them, and 

794
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:25,760
then send a more worthwhile 
message. 

795
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,760
We just help you do that at a 
scale where it becomes feasible.

796
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,240
And we give you the tools to do 
that if you, that's why we, we 

797
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:35,720
don't own kind of like the 
messaging channel because we 

798
00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:37,800
don't know what you're going to 
send and we're not responsible 

799
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,600
for that. 
If your product sucks, your 

800
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,920
message won't work regardless of
who you target and what you say.

801
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,320
So that's also information, 
right? 

802
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,600
And that information is helpful.
I think it doesn't make sense to

803
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,160
claim that we will help you grow
regardless, because what you're 

804
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:53,880
selling might not be worth 
growing. 

805
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,720
There are good customers out 
there that fit. 

806
00:39:56,720 --> 00:39:58,200
We'll help you find them, but we
can't. 

807
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,120
Promise, Right. 
Yeah, We'll help you figure out 

808
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,400
how to go about doing that. 
And so I think we're much more 

809
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,080
aligned, actually, with 
customers and people sending 

810
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,240
messages that are worthwhile. 
And we try to guide people to 

811
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:14,880
use this in this way. 
Because by the way, if you don't

812
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,960
use this correctly, you're the 
one who's going to get banned, 

813
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:19,320
not us. 
Get banned just by like e-mail 

814
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:20,760
providers if you're sending too 
many. 

815
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,560
E-mail providers. 
Yeah, exactly. 

816
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,680
Or like by having, you know, add
messages or you're the one who's

817
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,880
not going to get the results. 
And so, yeah, I think that's a 

818
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,320
key element of it. 
Can you walk me through just 

819
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,520
like one of the most interesting
customer case studies? 

820
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,360
Yeah, for sure. 
There's a couple. 

821
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,520
I won't name the names right 
now, but some of the case 

822
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,000
studies are on our website. 
But I want to tell you a couple 

823
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,240
of them that we don't have on 
the website that I think are 

824
00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:48,000
great. 
One company actually sent us a 

825
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,080
message where they started 
looking at our status page and 

826
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,680
seeing whenever our product was 
down or had issues. 

827
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,760
And then they were a dev OPS 
tool and they would see what we 

828
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,400
said was the issue and they'd be
like, well, if you were using 

829
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:03,920
US, you wouldn't be down. 
And here's why. 

830
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,160
And it was very effective. 
I read it. 

831
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,080
And so I thought that was a 
pretty creative way of lately 

832
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,640
there are no data sets that look
at status pages, but they used 

833
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:19,040
our AI agent to monitor us. 
There's another company that is 

834
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,680
looking at to. 
Double click on that like they 

835
00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:26,600
built a tool or like how no. 
So they used Clay as AI agent to

836
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:31,000
look at our own status page and 
monitor it to see whenever we 

837
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,600
said that we were down, looked 
at the reason that we were down,

838
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,400
matched it to one of the 
products that they could sell to

839
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,400
us and then sent us a message. 
There's a tool that sort of 

840
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,000
triggers when websites are down 
in real time or. 

841
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,040
No, that's the beautiful thing. 
We have an AI agent that you can

842
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,840
program to do whatever you want,
including look at our status 

843
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,720
page. 
Interesting, right? 

844
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,800
So what's great is that we don't
need to have a tool for every 

845
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,600
possible use case. 
Actually, customers discovered 

846
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,320
new use cases. 
But are they? 

847
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,000
Then they're hosting a tool they
built on or that becomes a tool 

848
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,480
that all Clay customers can use.
Or no, no, no, no. 

849
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:10,280
It's just they told the AI agent
to go look at our status page 

850
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,480
and then message us when there's
an issue and high it to their 

851
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,960
products. 
We can then take that use case 

852
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,880
and make it more templated for 
everybody else. 

853
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,240
Yeah. 
And that's something that we can

854
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:24,800
choose to do, but we don't have 
a marketplace where you can then

855
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,320
sell that strategy. 
Yeah, I see. 

856
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:27,560
Yeah, yeah. 
Got it. 

857
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:29,600
That's the Super interesting 
one. 

858
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,040
Yeah. 
There's another one that I think

859
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:39,880
is pretty cool where company has
a way of kind of doing brand 

860
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,880
normalization. 
So it's just like, is your brand

861
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:44,960
the same in every channel that 
you're using it? 

862
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,240
So they use clay to look at like
a company's brand identity. 

863
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,720
Then they look at all the social
channels that they send messages

864
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:58,160
through and whenever they see a 
discrepancy, they message the 

865
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,880
company and say, hey, you just 
tweeted out something that 

866
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,240
doesn't match your brand 
identity. 

867
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:05,280
You could have been using our 
tool to have brand consistency. 

868
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,000
Interesting. 
So these are very unique go to 

869
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,920
market strategies. 
And what's amazing about this is

870
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,840
a very custom to your company. 
But the tools that you need to 

871
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,720
do that are not custom. 
They're the, you know, clay 

872
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:19,200
primitives. 
And that's obviously why we're 

873
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,360
called clay because you can 
build different things with it, 

874
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,560
right? 
The same way that every website 

875
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,280
you know could look completely 
different, but you can still 

876
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,760
build it in Figma. 
Do you allow customers like how 

877
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,520
much this is, this is going to 
reveal how non-technical I am, 

878
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,480
but like direct like API access 
or like, you know, I feel like 1

879
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,080
trend in the AI world is like 
we're only an API business and 

880
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,720
you could sort of flow, flow 
through US without really 

881
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:48,640
interacting with our interface. 
It sounds like what you're 

882
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,400
describing though, is the 
opposite where it's like we have

883
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,800
a great interface, you'd want to
go through clay. 

884
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,760
Or how do you think about the 
rise of, you know, these sort of

885
00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:00,960
API first businesses? 
Right now we don't have a public

886
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,920
API for you to do that. 
Sometimes we work with companies

887
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,080
to enable that, but I think it 
depends who the customer is, 

888
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,200
right? 
Is the customer an engineer or 

889
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,320
is a customer a non engineer? 
And so we believe that the more 

890
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,360
features we make in our UI, the 
faster you can build some of 

891
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,720
these things without me being an
engineer. 

892
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:24,920
And then there's obviously also 
room for engineers to use some 

893
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,880
of the capabilities that Clay 
has by API to build things 

894
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:29,640
themselves. 
That's something that we'll be 

895
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,000
looking at in the future. 
I want to ask you a couple 

896
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,520
questions about sort of AI 
applications broadly and where 

897
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,960
things are headed. 
Any I guess last words on clay 

898
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,520
or like you know where, where 
you'd like to be in sort of two 

899
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,120
years. 
Are there any other reflections 

900
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,320
that I haven't covered on your 
business before? 

901
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,520
I ask you to play pundit for a 
second, I think. 

902
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:54,040
That the thing that's so 
exciting about Clay is that we 

903
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,200
have this really large 
community, so there's over 

904
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,720
20,000 people in our Slack 
channel, there's clubs in over 

905
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:05,560
40 cities. 
We just opened out funding 

906
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:11,200
round, the community funding 
round that was basically allowed

907
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,240
our own community to invest cuz 
we're getting ideas from the 

908
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:17,160
community so that they should 
share our ability to grow. 

909
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,560
But I think we've created this 
new go to market engineer role 

910
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,800
that isn't a really like 
powerful persona where you're 

911
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:31,520
able to kind of control all of 
like the third party data that 

912
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,840
you can find on the Internet 
about a company and then your 

913
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,600
own first party data. 
So like, let's say someone's 

914
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,240
been using your product lot, but
stopped using it recently, but 

915
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:43,720
would use it if you released a 
new AI feature, you should 

916
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:47,200
message them or has been 
complaining in gong calls about 

917
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,280
your support and now you've 
improved your support. 

918
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,600
So this go to market engineer 
can turn all of these ideas for 

919
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,080
growth into reality. 
And I think those people are 

920
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,360
getting promoted really quickly,
starting agencies as well to 

921
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,040
help other companies making a 
lot of money. 

922
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,800
And so in two years, we want 
this to be a role that's in 

923
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,120
every company. 
Each one of these companies is 

924
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,000
using clay to grow. 
The idea of, like, a service 

925
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,560
provider who's using your tool 
to then sell it to other 

926
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,560
companies. 
I mean, it's funny because 

927
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,000
you're also seeing AI 
businesses, you know, in the 

928
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,000
legal space. 
There's sort of an ongoing 

929
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,120
debate of whether you should be 
the service business that uses 

930
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,240
your secret AI tools or sell the
AI tool. 

931
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:26,960
Yeah. 
I don't know. 

932
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,000
Do you worry at all? 
Like, oh, again, if you can 

933
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,680
build a company up to sort of 
consult just using clay, we 

934
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,520
should be sort of selling those 
consulting services or how do 

935
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,160
you think about that ecos? 
No, we're very much wanting to 

936
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,640
partner with that ecosystem and 
we have a very large number of 

937
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,840
people making a lot of money 
building on top of clay. 

938
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,240
It's a small percentage of our 
revenue. 

939
00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:50,360
Most of our companies use it 
directly. 

940
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,920
But if you look at HubSpot, for 
example, about half of their ARR

941
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,400
comes from basically revenue 
that that a consultant has 

942
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,240
touched. 
And so you can build a very big 

943
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:02,520
business doing that. 
Right, Yeah, We almost signed up

944
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,040
for HubSpot, and it's like, 
we'll give you this person 

945
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,400
architect at all. 
It's like, my God, I'm gonna be 

946
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,560
spending this money forever. 
I'm never gonna get out of it. 

947
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,480
That's exactly what they want. 
Right. 

948
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,840
I walked away at the last 
second, but I know I said I was 

949
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,880
going to move on from Clay, but 
it's super interesting. 

950
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,640
I mean, how much are you 
learning from Figma? 

951
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,040
I mean, I hear like community 
centric. 

952
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,840
Are you allowing employees to 
start using Clay before the 

953
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,320
company starts paying for it? 
Or what is sort of the adoption 

954
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,360
sort of journey for most 
companies? 

955
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,280
No, we have a, we have a reverse
trial. 

956
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,760
So you get all the features for 
two weeks and then you have to 

957
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,160
pay, right? 
Yeah. 

958
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,840
And so we have a free tier, but 
we are really selling to people 

959
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,760
who have a product that they 
want to grow. 

960
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,520
So our profile is a little bit 
different than like it's not. 

961
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,960
The rogue employee, it's sort of
like, oh, no, this company is 

962
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,160
sort of deciding to consider 
using it. 

963
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,440
Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
And that's a better fit for us. 

964
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,120
Yeah, because it's how come just
more intense or it's like. 

965
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,360
Well, it's just more that you 
need to have something to grow 

966
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,040
before you can grow it, right? 
Whereas some other products, 

967
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,520
like if you're in Figma, you 
might Draw Something, it doesn't

968
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,280
really matter if the thing 
exists or not and you would 

969
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,080
still be playing around there. 
So it makes a bit more sense. 

970
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,960
We're closer, we are more 
closely tied to revenue. 

971
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,520
Once you start making revenue, 
we can help you grow that in. 

972
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:20,880
Right. 
Yeah, which is why investors are

973
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,440
excited. 
It's like we're close to the 

974
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,720
money you can see that you're 
making. 

975
00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:27,040
You can see the fact, yeah, yes,
for sure. 

976
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,680
And don't forget that the 
biggest SAS company in the 

977
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,560
world, Salesforce, is basically 
a go to market kind of like 

978
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,000
toolkit. 
Like it's ostensibly a CRM, but 

979
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,200
really it's everything that you 
need to have the information so 

980
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,640
that you can grow your company. 
Do you have the CRM piece? 

981
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,320
Is it too or no? 
I don't think that that's kind 

982
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,720
of where we want to be. 
We are a system of action, not a

983
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:51,080
system of record. 
I like that, yeah, yeah. 

984
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,520
What, what lessons do you think 
you know, other startup founders

985
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:58,520
can learn from Clay in terms of 
building applications like 

986
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,520
whether it's the relationship 
with model companies that you've

987
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,040
taken or, or sort of anything 
else that you you think is sort 

988
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,920
of more broadly applicable that 
you can give away in other 

989
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,400
categories? 
I think that the key thing 

990
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:14,080
without knowing a specific 
situation, the core ideas I 

991
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,960
think are you have to have 
alignment between the various 

992
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,240
parts of your business. 
So like what is your product, 

993
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,080
right? 
And how does that align with 

994
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,160
your go to market motion? 
How do they feed into one 

995
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,600
another, right? 
So where do you start? 

996
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,400
And then how do you take it to 
the next step? 

997
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,880
Those things need to make sense,
right? 

998
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,600
So if you are, I'll give you an 
example, right? 

999
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,840
We knew that we wanted to have a
PLG driven business. 

1000
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,120
So like people can come and sign
up for the product, product, 

1001
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,320
they don't need to have a demo. 
So we built the product so that 

1002
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,280
you can use it without needing a
demo. 

1003
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:51,640
And then we figured out who has 
the most acute problem that is 

1004
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:53,400
similar to the one we want to 
solve. 

1005
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,360
And it turns out that there's 
all these B2B agencies that are 

1006
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,320
helping people grow their 
companies, but they are at the 

1007
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,840
forefront actually because 
they're helping so many 

1008
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:03,360
different companies. 
So they have the most 

1009
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,200
complicated set of problems. 
And if we solve theirs, they 

1010
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,440
would go and talk to other 
people about us. 

1011
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,320
And so we knew that we could 
help them. 

1012
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:15,080
And then we you can also do the 
same thing and go directly to 

1013
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,200
companies. 
The use case is not different. 

1014
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:19,400
The functionality isn't 
different, The feature set isn't

1015
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,240
different. 
If you're gonna help someone and

1016
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:24,080
then jump to another set of 
customers and the functionality 

1017
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,720
is different, that's too far of 
a leap. 

1018
00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:28,960
It needs to be kind of 
concentric circles that are 

1019
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:33,960
overlapping. 
Your success is to sell your 

1020
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,840
product to somebody else without
having to build something 

1021
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,320
totally new. 
Exactly. 

1022
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,120
And then you need to have the 
sales motion to be aligned. 

1023
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,840
You can't start PLG and then 
suddenly be like, well, 

1024
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,200
everything needs to be sales 
based in the future because you 

1025
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,560
built a different culture. 
And you also have to have a 

1026
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,160
unique insight, usually by 
turning something on its head. 

1027
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,280
So you could build the simplest 
tool in the world or you could 

1028
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,120
build a more complicated tool. 
You need to figure out what 

1029
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,640
where are you on that spectrum? 
And you could build a tool. 

1030
00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:05,840
Tool for everyone to use, right?
Or one person to use and those 

1031
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,760
end up 'cause those assumptions 
change what you build. 

1032
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:13,160
What do you make of this idea 
that, you know, sort of, I don't

1033
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,360
know, software companies are 
screwed Or it's like, if I'm 

1034
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,440
gonna build, I mean, you talk 
about Salesforce. 

1035
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,640
That was sort of the situation 
with Klarna. 

1036
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,480
It's like I'm gonna build my own
Salesforce so I won't have to 

1037
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,640
pay them. 
Like is it just you have to sort

1038
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,600
of outrun the capacity of 
somebody to build it internally,

1039
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,120
or you think that's sort of 
overhyped? 

1040
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,240
Or what do you think about this 
idea that every enterprise just 

1041
00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:36,880
builds any application that 
becomes core to what it's doing?

1042
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,760
Yeah, I mean that that was 
already happening, right. 

1043
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,800
And just dependent how much how 
willing you were to spend money 

1044
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,400
on this and how willing you are 
to kind of set up a team to do 

1045
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,080
this. 
So a lot of people had clay like

1046
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,080
things internally the same way 
that people had built CRMS 

1047
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,480
internally before Salesforce. 
So there's always a build versus

1048
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,880
buy conversation in in software,
whether it's skews more to build

1049
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,280
now because it's cheaper. 
I think the question is, who is?

1050
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,680
It's not about building most of 
the time, it's about 

1051
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,640
maintaining. 
Everybody knows this, right? 

1052
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:07,960
That's the total cost of 
ownership, right? 

1053
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,440
Who is going to maintain this? 
Who understands how this thing 

1054
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,120
works? 
Who already is, you know, 

1055
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,600
knowledgeable? 
Does this look like something 

1056
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:18,920
else they've seen in the future?
Are they starting from scratch? 

1057
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,720
And I personally like the idea 
of personalized software, right,

1058
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:25,840
that you can build something 
quickly, you know, some internal

1059
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,720
tool that you need. 
I do think that for tasks that 

1060
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:33,440
you're regularly doing and that 
look similar across every 

1061
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,800
business, that you will still 
have software off the shelf that

1062
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,680
is just built to be very 
configurable very quickly. 

1063
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,440
So that has tons of integrations
that is easy to manipulate or 

1064
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,320
mold right into whatever you 
want. 

1065
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:50,440
So I think that software that is
very easy to customize will 

1066
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,400
still be in high demand. 
Yeah. 

1067
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,440
And I, no. 
And I, I, yeah, I think that 

1068
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,000
you're not going to build from 
scratch. 

1069
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,440
Even if you can build it, the 
requirements gathering, knowing 

1070
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,320
what to build is still a lot of 
the work. 

1071
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:05,640
It's most of the work, by the 
way. 

1072
00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:06,520
Right. 
Yeah. 

1073
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:08,560
And so imagine you're gonna have
to figure that out. 

1074
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,880
Your data relationships give you
sort of a pretty big mode if a 

1075
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:17,000
customer is using a lot of them 
and wants this sort of sense 

1076
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,000
that I can pull from a lot of. 
Different sets, even if they're 

1077
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:21,560
not. 
Using a lot of, mostly just 

1078
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,120
using like one of them all the 
time. 

1079
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:24,360
Like. 
Do you worry about that? 

1080
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,440
That's not possible, right? 
Yeah, I'm not super worried 

1081
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:30,400
about that because everybody has
tried to build the one data set 

1082
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,240
that rules them all. 
But you're working with living 

1083
00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:35,640
entities, people in companies, 
and there's so many different 

1084
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:37,800
ways to view that. 
So there were so many different 

1085
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,720
properties and you can't have 
them all. 

1086
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,360
And it's also very different, 
right? 

1087
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,800
Like you might have data about 
company than North America 

1088
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,080
versus companies in Europe. 
So that hasn't turned out to be 

1089
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,280
the case. 
There's definitely a mode in all

1090
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,600
of the data provider 
relationships and data cleaning 

1091
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,760
and all that. 
But I think a lot of the motives

1092
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,880
in the workflows, right? 
Enabling you to build any kind 

1093
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,680
of workflow quickly no matter 
what it is, and then also seeing

1094
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,880
what are the most interesting 
workflows and enabling that for 

1095
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,720
everybody else, right? 
How much do you adjudicate which

1096
00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:11,080
data source is more accurate or 
score it or you're like, oh, if 

1097
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,880
you're, if you're depending on 
phone numbers, like we think 

1098
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,160
this is the best source versus 
leaving it up to the customer to

1099
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,720
sort of pick between multiple. 
Lists, we do a lot of due 

1100
00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:24,240
diligence before kind of working
with a data provider and we have

1101
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:27,760
a team that looks into that and 
compares kind of like, you know,

1102
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,800
whatever the data is in a 
particular, you know, set of of 

1103
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,040
functionality like 
technographics or demographics. 

1104
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,400
But we leave the choice to the 
customers. 

1105
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:42,200
In the end, we'll be doing more 
and more of that as we figure 

1106
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,480
out ways for us to be really 
accurate so that we can actually

1107
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,960
give really high quality 
information here, right? 

1108
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,920
You know, I love the idea of 
like truth and AI and obviously 

1109
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,440
with sort of existing companies,
there are actual facts and so 

1110
00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:00,120
you can sort of decide overtime 
like what what's real and what's

1111
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,760
translating into yeah, the world
does exist. 

1112
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:07,400
Do do you use coding apps 
internally or I'm curious what 

1113
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,120
you guys are obviously super 
sophisticated. 

1114
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,120
There are lots of them running 
at each other right now, like 

1115
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:17,640
Codium cursor, Lovable, you 
know, there's Replit, there's 

1116
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,840
obviously Claude code. 
It's go straight to the source. 

1117
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,160
Like what are you guys using and
what's your read on how much 

1118
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,000
that's helping Clay build 
quickly? 

1119
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:27,240
A. 
Mixture of all of the above. 

1120
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,440
I mean, I think people 
internally use cursor, some 

1121
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,360
people use Windsor if we don't 
have a unified kind of ideology.

1122
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,840
Go forth and use what you want. 
I think it's too early to kind 

1123
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,080
of decide and I think actually 
letting engineers decide what is

1124
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,280
best for them. 
You know, if you're using Bolt 

1125
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,160
or Replit to like whip out 
product managers could use this 

1126
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:50,000
to show like a quick prototype 
versus if you're using cursor as

1127
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:51,720
your IDE, that's a very 
different thing. 

1128
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:53,960
Or some people use GitHub 
Copilot. 

1129
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,720
We're still finding that a lot 
of like AI codes requires, you 

1130
00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:02,200
know, heavy human review and you
also need to know what you're 

1131
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,280
doing and so that you understand
what you actually implemented. 

1132
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,320
Otherwise we'll have there are 
like very subtle bugs that you 

1133
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,480
can introduce. 
You know my friend Meryl runs a 

1134
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:16,520
company graphite dot dev that 
does AI agent like code review. 

1135
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,400
Yeah. 
So there'll be AI agents doing 

1136
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:21,760
the review and then you'll 
review it. 

1137
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:26,120
It is moving helping us to move 
faster for sure, especially if 

1138
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:27,760
you're writing a lot of 
boilerplate. 

1139
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:32,480
I do think that the the barrier 
is still the ideas what your how

1140
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,200
they all work together, 
coordinating all of these things

1141
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:39,160
and then being able to bring 
them to market through a unique 

1142
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,120
kind of go to market channel. 
So we use clay internally as 

1143
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,680
well to figure out like what are
the tactics we're using to sell 

1144
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,440
clay. 
And I think that you don't wanna

1145
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,560
just build a bunch of low 
quality things. 

1146
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:55,320
Congrats, you know a mid stage 
winner and we'll be following 

1147
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:57,360
everything you're doing and 
thanks for coming on the 

1148
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:58,880
podcast. 
Appreciate it, Eric. 

1149
00:56:58,880 --> 00:56:59,600
Thank you. 
Cool.