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Welcome, Silicon Valley, hello 
again everybody Welcome to Dead 

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cat Tom here with Eric, we've 
got Alex Heath here from The 

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Verge. 
Alex is the social media 

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reporting, Savant lunar. 
Can't we save under Kent? 

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You're still young enough to be 
Thundercats. 

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Sure, sure. 
Let's go with that. 

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Okay, but former colleague of 
mine at the information, we used

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to be shit. 
Kickers together on the social 

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media beat you scoop that 
Facebook was going to change its

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name. 
We talked about that on this 

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podcast, so yeah, and I enjoyed 
that conversation. 

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We hadn't talked to you about 
Heath in a while. 

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So we're glad to we're glad to 
bring you want it to correct 

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that but but I do as excited as 
I am to have Alex on, we have to

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temper some of that, enthusiasm 
at the fact that we are here 

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today to memorialize something 
that we all lost last week. 

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Something that was part of all 
of our Lives Mehta Nay Facebook 

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died, last week. 
Wow. 

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All right P. 
Yeah, the cause of death, Tim 

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Cook. 
And, you know what just turned 

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18, just turn legal and Dad. 
Wow. 

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Wow. 
I didn't even think about that. 

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Not even a full life as much as 
you can get these days. 

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It's tragic, honestly, we're a 
little bit. 

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Yeah. 
The company only brought in 

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thirty three billion dollars in 
Revenue last quarter which is 

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Frankie pathetic. 
That's super. 

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Yeah, that's three. 
Yeah so but But let's let's 

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acknowledge the fact that it's 
talk to drop 20 something 

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percent over the last Coast like
25%, last five twenty, five 

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percent. 
So setting a record that they 

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previously set themselves in 
2018, right? 

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Yeah, value itself. 
What 300 billion of market cap? 

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Or I mean, I think it was closer
to 20 ish, but yeah, it was, it 

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was the record from their drop 
in 2018, right, right. 

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So beating their own record. 
So what, what to make of this 

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Alex? 
I mean, it's, there's a lot to 

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this. 
To digest here. 

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And, you know, the impact that 
it had that sort of blast 

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radius, both affected and didn't
affect a lot of its competitors.

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But what is like your high-level
takeaways to why things seem so 

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extreme report? 
Like what was the most troubling

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thing to investors? 
That caused them to panic in the

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way they did? 
I mean there were a few things I

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think probably the thing that 
sent the market down the most 

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was the forecast being lower 
than expected because the 

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markets always Ways are about 
the future, not the past, but 

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it's the Apple stuff you talked 
about, Tim Cook just laying down

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absolute vengeance upon the and 
the ad world. 

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Did they give a specific number 
on how much the Apple change 

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affected them? 
They said they were going to 

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lose 10 billion this year is the
rough estimate from the Apple 

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change. 
And then they also said they 

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were going to spend 10 billion 
on Meadow, right? 

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That's been confused, they have 
other guests and more than that,

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they spent that last year, but 
it's going to be Right. 

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So they spent more in Q4 on 
metaverse than all arv. 

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Our startups raise combined last
year, so yeah, it's kind of like

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a bet the farm thing. 
So on one side investors, see 

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this bet the farm increasing Rd 
spend that a massive loss that 

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doesn't look like it's going to 
reverse course anytime soon and 

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then they see an ad business 
that is under threat from Apple 

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regulators and then they see a 
slowing user base. 

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This was the first time that the
Blue app reported sequential 

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Global da you decline in its 
history. 

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So the the unending gross 
narrative finally came to a halt

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and we know that a lot of that. 
It's so the reporting on this is

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actually been a little 
incorrect. 

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A lot of it was like and I 
haven't looked at this in mind 

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so I'm partly to blame as like 
when you say reporter, you mean 

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like the media? 
Not like analyst. 

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I mean us the media. 
Yes. 

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Okay name names, Alex, what did 
we get wrong Force? 

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Just well. 
So This is I also I think got 

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the tone of this wrong in my, in
my earnings coverage. 

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But the so if you actually pay 
attention to what the CFO of 

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meta said, the reason they lost 
users was because of higher than

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expected data prices in India. 
But there's a narrative that, 

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you know, it's about losing the 
teens, right? 

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The teens are on Fortnight there
on Roblox, their own Tick-Tock 

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Tick-Tock is the reason for all 
this. 

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When in reality they told 
investors it had. 

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Some, it was some very out there
like pricing thing in India so 

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like it just shows how you can 
see the da use breakdown 

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literally looking at ya right 
now so they'll also US and 

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Canada went right? 
I know, 196 million to 195. 

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I mean I can just imagine being 
at the company you know they 

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miss their da, you buy 1 
million, right? 

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So they might there must be some
engineer that was like 

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frantically trying to get us to 
not be owned. 

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There's one engineer, many, many
Engineers, like just hacking. 

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Whatever they can to try to. 
Yeah, enough push alerts. 

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To keep it right lat. 
Well, there's a so it's easier 

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to fake Mau. 
So that's very easy to do with 

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some push alerts and like they 
have a whole playbook for this. 

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Like at the end of every 
quarter, if they feel like 

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they're not going to meet their 
targets, it's like all hands on 

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deck. 
Let's get those in may use up, 

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tau is a lot harder to fake, 
right? 

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Because that's that's like 
consistent engagement and that's

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also like the that's the core 
health of the Is Tau. 

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And so basically, they couldn't 
eke out an extra million in 

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India because of data plan 
pricing. 

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And so therefore, this 1 million
loss in North America led to a 

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global decline for the first 
time, which is like a number 

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that isn't that big of a deal 
but to investors it's like this 

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company is never not grown. 
So that's that's a problem, 

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right? 
Well now we have Robin Hood's 

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decreasing, we've got Facebook, 
all these, alleged growth, 

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stocks are showing showing 
weakness, well, the other apps 

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are still growing in the, in the
meta. 

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Family right on mean really know
like the the Mau for Instagram 

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and WhatsApp was up like by I 
think around 100 million which 

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is a lot but like on their 
scale, not what they're used to 

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but the da, you barely moved. 
I think like, Instagram and 

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WhatsApp or kind of also at a 
stasis. 

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Right. 
Right. 

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So like collectively it's just 
hard to for analysts or 

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investors to keep with the same 
story that they have been which 

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is that you know even if the 
growth of the Blue app is going 

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to be you know on Decline or 
flat you can you can look to 

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these other apps and say like 
well you know, thank God we 

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still have Instagram or thank 
God. 

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We still have what you know 
what's that? 

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Like that's just that train is 
just slowing down. 

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They just don't have that 
anymore. 

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And I mean, look, none of this 
is all that surprising. 

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I mean like I remember writing 
about this like three years ago 

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at the information that this 
that this day was coming. 

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So I mean, obviously you can 
only do so you called it. 

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You're saying you had a you had 
a low wish. 

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I could say that wasn't brought 
along. 

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Put you had a long put on this 
You just made a lot of money if 

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I made it. 
I made a huge amount of money 

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and I know exactly why it was 
orders are always - sometimes 

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eventually something bad right 
happen and you can be 

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Vindicated, right? 
We every reporter has a short 

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position. 
The whole video explanation. 

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Honestly has been the most 
mystifying to me, everybody's 

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trying to reinterpret it. 
So as I Kerber, gives this 

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speech right to employees saying
they're going to focus on video 

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is Right, am I getting that 
right? 

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Yeah, they said that on their 
own. 

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Is culture? 
Yeah. 

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Okay. 
So what's what's the deal? 

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Is it just like talk or? 
Yeah I mean like video is more 

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engaging. 
I think it's also a generational

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thing. 
Like I think young people 

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instead of like taking a photo 
of something or like a selfie 

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it's almost like a quick video 
pan of their face. 

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Like I just noticed this and my 
feeds and like younger people 

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don't really take photos as much
and yeah Tick Tock is a format 

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is now. 
Ubiquitous it's like stories. 

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It's the new stories and you 
know, even snap. 

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I'm Only deleting an undulating,
really talk. 

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Oh, so they need a femoral 
Tick-Tock. 

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See, they're just going to merge
the two formats. 

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No, I mean I delete the app 
uses. 

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Yeah. 
It's about a say, it's more 

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serious. 
Yeah. 

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Oh, it's a little cumbersome 
system. 

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Well, that's because you don't 
want Chinese spyware, right? 

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Well, the other thing about 
Chinese spy, where they ask for 

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my contacts, like every other 
day. 

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And I'm causes every answer. 
It should be against apples 

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rules. 
Like so if I accidentally you 

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don't like it and say, yeah, but
it just like pops up in 

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unexpected. 
At times and there's no like 

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double confirmation just like a 
Miss click away from handing the

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Chinese government essentially. 
So you want, you want to argue 

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sure before you send it to the 
Chinese government. 

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I just think if you asked 
somebody something three times 

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about highly sensitive 
information and you say no apple

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should Eric, are you really just
saying your address book is 

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super lucrative? 
I feel like that's the that's 

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what - I just like the fact. 
You think the Chinese don't 

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already have it? 
I know. 

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Well, Day where the Wall Street 
Journal, you know, said that it 

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got hacked, and it seems like 
it's probably the Chinese 

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government. 
There is a degree to, which 

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like, we're all just hacked all 
the time. 

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Some of us are just finding out 
about it, but I would at least 

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like, I don't know. 
I yeah, I think apple is a good 

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Steward of my iPhone and this is
just a request. 

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I thought I want to get to the 
to the push alert things in a 

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second when we talk about snap 
because I have a lot of thoughts

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about that. 
But but yeah, I mean, do you 

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reels, right? 
That's the tick. 

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Tock Etre you know, push through
Instagram, and they're trying to

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spin a pretty positive story 
about that which in the past you

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know reading yours and Other 
Stories. 

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It sounds like reels was kind of
a fiasco but maybe they've 

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turned it around a bit like the 
it's actually getting some 

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Traction in the way they need it
to. 

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So Facebook's Playbook any time.
There's a new competitor is like

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we copy the format and we don't 
monetize it because we don't 

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want people to be turned off by 
ads to start. 

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We want them hooked on the 
experience and we fine-tuned and

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kind of like needle the 
experiment it. 

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Variants with all the engagement
numbers. 

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We have to the degree that no 
other competitor does to make it

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a little bit better. 
And when we like also pay 

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creators to try to get a 
flywheel going, they did this 

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with stories, they're doing it 
again with reels but it's early 

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and they're not monetizing real.
So like all the attention is 

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Shifting to Reels but they're 
not putting at. 

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Is this happened with stories. 
It was the same thing. 

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It was like, I think even around
the 2018 drop was like a story 

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Narrative of like stories were 
under monetized and they just 

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like eventually shoved ads in 
that thing. 

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So like, I'm not this kind of 
just reminds me of 20:18 like 

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they have these like, kind of 
huge drops when they like have a

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rough. 
There had a rough juncture, I 

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guess as a company. 
You're optimistic though. 

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I mean, when I go to the 
Instagram version of tick-tock 

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is that also called reels. 
What's that one called? 

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That's, that's reels that do 
that Israel's? 

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That's where it's not me. 
It's on, it's not good. 

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It's not, it's terrible. 
It's embarrassing. 

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It's like knockoff. 
It literally has like a game. 

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I got a knockoff version. 
Yeah. 

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It's we make. 
So the algorithm Chinese things,

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unlike, you know, Somali Bob. 
But sore, but like the reels is 

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like the version of that of 
tick-tock we're like Tic Tacs. 

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Giving me like the real shit and
reels the real. 

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Yeah, exactly getting that real.
Yeah, no, it's reels is not 

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00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:23,400
great. 
They don't have good algorithms,

228
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relative to tick. 
Tock, they haven't. 

229
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So the reason is like Facebook 
was, was they design like 

230
00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:31,700
Facebook came up in the era of 
like algorithms designed based 

231
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off of like the user telling it 
what it once and tick-tock. 

232
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,100
Invented A New Concept of like 
the algorithm telling you what 

233
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it thinks you want. 
And without like you having to 

234
00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:42,600
input like when you open up and 
talk, you don't need to like 

235
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,300
follow things. 
You don't need to like, a bunch 

236
00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:45,900
of things. 
Follow a bunch of pages. 

237
00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:48,500
That's how Facebook built 
profiles of us back in the day. 

238
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And that's how their algorithms 
are trained. 

239
00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:51,900
So they're having to like kind 
of unlearn. 

240
00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:55,300
The way they train a feed and 
it's hard to do in a company 

241
00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:57,500
that size where the people who 
built the stuff from 10 years 

242
00:11:57,500 --> 00:12:00,800
ago or so in charge. 
And so, and they can't buy, you 

243
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,900
know, companies really to help 
them with this stuff. 

244
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So it's going to be a problem 
for them. 

245
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And that's Thing they called out
was like, it's almost I think 

246
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,300
they're worried that the 
narrative has gotten. 

247
00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:11,800
So ahead on the metaverse stuff 
and the spend that they've 

248
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,500
highlighted as gotten, I mean, I
have one by one person to blame 

249
00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:17,000
for that. 
I mean, no, no. 

250
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,900
I know I it's their fault, 
totally, but if you look hasten 

251
00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:24,000
to earnings like they highlight,
we actually expect spend be 

252
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,700
higher in the family of apps 
segment in terms of like our 

253
00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:31,000
capex then then the rest of the 
company. 

254
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,000
So they're actually trying to 
like Point people back like hey 

255
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we know there's a problem in the
core business. 

256
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:36,800
We're actually going to spend 
more than we all call it 

257
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:41,000
Facebook, again, I feel like the
media knows resisted calling it 

258
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,400
meta. 
Like it's just like I really 

259
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,000
learned. 
I'm so fascinated by this 

260
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,600
Viewpoint. 
Like so if ya like it's almost 

261
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,600
like you know, a company says, 
they have these earnings but we 

262
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,800
should resist it. 
We should say they actually I 

263
00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:54,800
like what do you mean? 
No. 

264
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,700
They like this is like except 
reinforcing make up numbers. 

265
00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:02,400
I'm just saying as long as your 
core product is still one thing.

266
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,500
It's just like I mean everybody.
Every consumer still knows. 

267
00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:10,400
Alphabet is Google like but that
is just a real about the 

268
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,800
alphabet Rebrand was about like 
accounting. 

269
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,300
It wasn't about In Like Larry 
and Sergey also being able to 

270
00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:18,400
like disappear into the sunset. 
It wasn't, it wasn't like an 

271
00:13:18,408 --> 00:13:21,700
actual pivot for the company. 
I mean it's definitely a brand 

272
00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:25,600
thing like I'm not I totally get
that but like Facebook is 

273
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,500
actually the least important 
asset even in the family of apps

274
00:13:28,500 --> 00:13:31,400
in terms of like their strategic
growth like instead they should 

275
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,600
be called Instagram if you want 
to call it based on what it is 

276
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,100
and the whole company should be 
called in Degree Facebook and 

277
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,400
blue app. 
Still makes the most generous, 

278
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,500
it makes the new. 
Well actually I've seen they 

279
00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:43,300
don't break that out. 
But there's been some reporting 

280
00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:47,000
that suggests that they're 
already like approaching parity 

281
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,800
and I wouldn't be surprised if 
Instagram makes more in the near

282
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,900
term. 
So yeah if you want to call it 

283
00:13:51,908 --> 00:13:53,900
by what it is, we should call it
the Instagram company. 

284
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,000
Do you think there's been this 
is anecdotal but I feel like I 

285
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,300
post this on Instagram just 
right now just because even 

286
00:14:01,300 --> 00:14:05,000
though I'm living life and doing
things in the pandemics, not it 

287
00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:07,400
Just like I'm not out as much as
pre-pandemic. 

288
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,800
So it's just like there isn't 
the same lifestyle to post and 

289
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,100
that yeah a true end of the 
pandemic would be helpful for 

290
00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:19,900
Instagram on the posting side. 
Less on the consumption side. 

291
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,800
I don't know dude that's that's 
an interesting point because 

292
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,300
Evan Spiegel on snaps our 
earnings said that they've 

293
00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:29,700
noticed that stories posting has
stayed down throughout the whole

294
00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:32,800
pandemic and they expected it to
rebound by now with like a lot 

295
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,700
of lockdowns easing up 
especially for young people 

296
00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:37,000
young people People are 
generally, you know, out more 

297
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,500
like snaps user base. 
So, yeah, that is an interesting

298
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:41,800
Behavior. 
I think people are really 

299
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,900
embracing The Tick-Tock format, 
and kind of like stories aren't 

300
00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:48,000
as cool anymore and that's the 
story of social media is like 

301
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,400
there's a format that's cool for
a while. 

302
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,900
Until there's I love covering 
social media because it's so 

303
00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:55,400
generational like it changes 
based on kind of the behaviors 

304
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,600
and like desires of like the 
Next Generation. 

305
00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:01,500
It's a snap was like gen Z or 
whatever. 

306
00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:03,000
And now there's another 
generation. 

307
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,400
What is the next Generation 
called? 

308
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,900
I've gets Jenna. 
I think I think it's a blizzard 

309
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:08,900
and Z. 
Yeah, it's stupid. 

310
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:10,400
It's actually kind of 
terrifying. 

311
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,800
If you think about the 
implications of starting again, 

312
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,500
at Alpha, there are the alpha 
generation that my kid is an 

313
00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:20,200
alpha alpha. 
So why is it that snap seems to 

314
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,600
have navigated this much better?
I mean, you know, they I know 

315
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,500
that they have adopted a tick 
tock like, you know, section of 

316
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:29,900
the app that, you know, they 
basically have paid people to be

317
00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:30,600
there. 
Yeah. 

318
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,500
But you know, why is that not 
been as catastrophic for them as

319
00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:38,200
it seems to What for favorite 
answer that but the drug set up.

320
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,200
Also the drama on Snap because I
think part of what's fun about 

321
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,100
this story is just like just as 
Facebook was tanking, snap was 

322
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:50,700
going wild in the aftermarket. 
So like why swings are like part

323
00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:53,400
of what's so crazy about this? 
These are main stocks now. 

324
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,900
I mean they're like baby, 
basically like is that a coins 

325
00:15:55,900 --> 00:15:56,900
or meme? 
Stocktake. 

326
00:15:57,100 --> 00:15:59,700
I mean, literally on the last 
episode, I was like, oh, 

327
00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:02,600
everything's index index funds 
are going to kill everything. 

328
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:07,300
And I literally the next week we
Find out that actually like a 

329
00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:11,400
Fang stock. 
Facebook can swing down 25%, in 

330
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,800
five days. 
It's like totally the sanctions 

331
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,200
that notion. 
No, the thing stocks, do because

332
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,900
they're indexed, but snaps 
Wings, crazily, because it's too

333
00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:21,300
small. 
Like it, it went up, 60, 

334
00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:25,800
something percent or fifty to 
sixty percent and in after hours

335
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,400
and is up way. 
I saw Nikita beer who sold an 

336
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,700
app to Facebook their last 
social media acquisition. 

337
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:35,000
They were allowed to do before 
antitrust and he was like he's 

338
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:37,800
Gonna buy a private jet off his 
snap calls that he ordered like 

339
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,100
right before markets closed for 
earnings. 

340
00:16:41,300 --> 00:16:44,700
There was a wild swing and two 
Tom's question. 

341
00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:47,100
Like I think people this is the 
same. 

342
00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:49,300
I remember when everyone was 
like stories are going to kill 

343
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:51,100
Snapchat. 
Like Snapchat is doomed because 

344
00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:53,900
Instagram is adding stories and 
like Snap is continued to add 

345
00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:58,300
more users and grow faster than 
any other public social media 

346
00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:01,200
company since then. 
Well, but there was a period 

347
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,800
where it seemed very accurate. 
I mean that, you know, but 

348
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,800
that's because of the redesign 
Workers cleaning, like, we were 

349
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,700
concerned. 
I mean, you know, this time like

350
00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:12,300
everyone was like conflating the
problems with Android, the 

351
00:17:12,308 --> 00:17:14,599
problems with International 
growth and the redesign was 

352
00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:17,700
stories, which is like not even 
the main reason people use snap,

353
00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:20,300
like Snap is a private, it's a 
private messaging which is 

354
00:17:20,308 --> 00:17:22,400
always funny that it's like you 
know now become a very 

355
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,900
successful advertising medium 
because obviously messaging is 

356
00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:29,400
like terrible to monetize and to
be perfectly honest I'm still 

357
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,900
not quite sure exactly like what
is the full like offering of 

358
00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:35,900
advertisements these days? 
Jean snap. 

359
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,100
When it's a lot of a our ads 
they're pushing into where it's 

360
00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:41,600
super early because it's a new 
format, but they're saying like 

361
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,600
insane Roi eyes on those limited
spend, they have their, it's 

362
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,700
like, like the numbers are 
pretty nuts on like, try on 

363
00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:53,000
stuff actually and, like, how it
affects customer sentiment, but 

364
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,000
they're doing a lot. 
All the ads are in discover the 

365
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,800
she Discover, right? 
Which is the thing that people 

366
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,200
don't even really talk that much
about. 

367
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,000
And yeah, I mean there's a great
story probably still to be 

368
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,800
written on like who exactly is 
that discover audience than 

369
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,600
like, what is its cultural? 
Fact, it's millions and millions

370
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,300
of like, people, they're younger
than us. 

371
00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:10,800
I mean, it has they have, like, 
HBO shows in there now? 

372
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,700
Like, it's, it's pretty wild. 
You never hear anyone talking 

373
00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:15,900
about. 
This is my biggest, this is my 

374
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:18,900
biggest, and I've heard this on 
other episodes of this show. 

375
00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:22,000
We as reporters have, got to 
stop saying, I've never heard 

376
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,600
someone has used this. 
Therefore, it must be a joke 

377
00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:27,100
like like I've never like it's a
joke. 

378
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,600
This is my culture dominates. 
Like we all talk about fucking 

379
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,700
on the hgo like, of course. 
Yeah, no but like Luckily 

380
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:39,200
culture, like, I think but 
Tick-Tock he's widely pot, 

381
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,700
right? 
I think that's orders under that

382
00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:43,100
argument is like, so, they're 
like his very clearly 

383
00:18:43,100 --> 00:18:45,700
penetrated. 
Some, some section of what we 

384
00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:48,200
describe as mainstream culture, 
and absolutely. 

385
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,200
I'm not saying there's anything 
up with it. 

386
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,500
I just don't understand like 
what is the broader cultural 

387
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:55,200
penetration? 
You want us to be talking about 

388
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,500
like young Sheldon or like what 
is the biggest fucking regular 

389
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:01,700
person TV show in the world 
right now? 

390
00:19:01,708 --> 00:19:04,700
This is us and I live with 
someone who watches that. 

391
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:07,000
So Is it good or no? 
It's terrible. 

392
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,200
That's not show. 
See all my all. 

393
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,600
My Elite snobbery is justified 
by the poor quality of the 

394
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,500
television that the masks. 
Hold on, we're getting far 

395
00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:19,000
afield here though. 
I'd it sporty you so. 

396
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,900
So so discoveries is there is 
there a money maker is what 

397
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:24,600
you're saying? 
Well, and adds in stories and 

398
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,400
ads and Spotlight and discover. 
Yeah. 

399
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,200
Which is the format. 
It's been like that for a couple

400
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:30,000
years. 
It's good. 

401
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,900
But let's talk about Tick-Tock 
and and and that aspect of it, 

402
00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:37,400
like why has The generational 
shift towards Tick-Tock not been

403
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,000
that devastating for them 
because that's not. 

404
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:41,800
So like Tick-Tock is 
entertainment. 

405
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,300
Its passive like I'm on the 
toilet and I need to like, look 

406
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:47,100
at some funny videos. 
Snap is actually like an 

407
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:49,800
iMessage replacement. 
It's like a it's a communication

408
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,100
medium that is way more sticky. 
There's built-in Network effects

409
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:56,500
that are very difficult to undo.
Its why Zuck offered one of his 

410
00:19:56,500 --> 00:20:00,700
like, you know fuck you money 
multiples for SNAP multiple 

411
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:03,500
times to try to like by the 
company because once you hit 

412
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:06,500
escape velocity on these kind of
Social networks that are built 

413
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:09,900
around day-to-day interaction. 
It's very hard to unwind that. 

414
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:12,700
So you have to, like, actually, 
like really destroy the product 

415
00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:15,500
over time. 
And so that's their durability. 

416
00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:19,000
Is that like that chat stuff and
also on the ad side which like 

417
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,500
the revenue piece snaps way 
earlier in their their 

418
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:25,000
advertising Journey, they maybe 
have a few hundred thousand 

419
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,600
advertisers Max Facebook has 
over 10 million. 

420
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,600
They have this Facebook invented
this long tail of like small D 

421
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,400
to C brand. 
Advertisers Snaps are mostly 

422
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,500
big. 
And still companies that can 

423
00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:39,400
navigate like, ad targeting 
problems. 

424
00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:42,300
And so they weren't hurt as bad 
because like, the people who are

425
00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:45,700
hurt are like the, you know, Mom
and Pop like, DDC brand that 

426
00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:48,800
like used to adjust their ad, 
spend on Facebook, like every 

427
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,600
hour to, like, reach the exact 
Mom. 

428
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,100
They're trying to reach in Des 
Moines. 

429
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:55,900
You know, like that? 
That's what got hurt by Apple. 

430
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:59,500
Not like, Coca-Cola, right moms 
in Des Moines, but what, I 

431
00:20:59,500 --> 00:21:03,800
don't, what I find kind of 
disingenuous on snaps part and I

432
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,300
did not listen to the Ernest. 
I do not cover this company 

433
00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:11,800
more, but I saw their lot of 
Reve Jeremy Gorman who was asked

434
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,200
reasonably by, you know, by 
analysts. 

435
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,600
Why was it that snap was not 
hurt as badly by the Apple, 

436
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,300
privacy changes as Facebook, and
the response was something like,

437
00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:23,000
well, you know, we've optimized 
for privacy focused, 

438
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,000
advertising. 
It's like, no, that's bullshit, 

439
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,900
that's bullshit. 
That's not true at all. 

440
00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:29,600
They just are earlier in their 
cycle and have a slightly 

441
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,200
different, you know, cohort of 
advertisers that are not as yes,

442
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,600
they're not as tan tracking in 
order to prove, you know, value 

443
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,700
for their advertisement and 
they're just earlier in their 

444
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:41,200
stage. 
Like there's more to that bucket

445
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,400
that can be filled. 
Whereas Facebook is probably 

446
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,700
maxed out and they have to just 
constantly prove to advertisers.

447
00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:50,500
Yes, keep spending at these, you
know, humongous amounts because 

448
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:52,500
that's valuable to you whereas 
snap. 

449
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:55,300
There's just, it's just an 
easier argument to sell without 

450
00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:58,000
the data to back it up. 
It's absolutely okay. 

451
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,100
I think that's fair. 
Yeah. 

452
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,000
Yeah. 
Can we talk about sort of the 

453
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,800
Apple change? 
I mean, obviously, you've been 

454
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:08,200
touching on it, but that Drove a
lot of the Facebook drop and 

455
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:09,600
there's been a sort of narrative
on Twitter. 

456
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,700
I think, Matt Stoller, you know,
sort of anti monopolist guy. 

457
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:20,400
Google pays Apple, a bunch of 
money to appear in apple search.

458
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:23,000
And so Apple likes Google in a 
way that they don't like 

459
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:28,700
Facebook and therefore, their 
tilting the change to help 

460
00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:32,700
Google and hurt Facebook. 
I mean that's sort of, I don't 

461
00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:34,700
think there's reporting on that 
nests. 

462
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,100
Necessarily, but I don't know. 
What do you take of that sort of

463
00:22:37,100 --> 00:22:40,400
line of argument and how 
plausible or implausible is? 

464
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,100
There's no evidence that this 
back room search deal, where, 

465
00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:47,800
you know, Google pays Apple, on 
the order of 10 billion a year, 

466
00:22:47,808 --> 00:22:51,600
which is Google's. 
Hey, more based on just don't 

467
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,700
scale so that we don't know. 
So, the details of the deal have

468
00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:57,600
never been publicly acknowledged
by the two companies details of 

469
00:22:57,608 --> 00:23:01,000
serviced and litigation, I think
the epic games trial, so, you 

470
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,200
know, when one Fang is paying 
the other, you know, on the 

471
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,300
order of 10 billion. 
You're secretly and neither will

472
00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:08,100
discuss it. 
That's probably a good sign that

473
00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:11,900
there's something weird going on
and it's also like 10 billion to

474
00:23:11,900 --> 00:23:14,400
Apple and the grand scheme of 
things is nothing right, but 

475
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,900
that's like free money. 
Essentially that's like a 

476
00:23:16,908 --> 00:23:19,600
hundred percent margin so that 
actually flows down to their 

477
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,700
profit margin in a really 
powerful way. 

478
00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:24,300
And if that were to disappear, 
it would definitely impact on 

479
00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:25,700
earnings. 
So this is a meaningful 

480
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:27,300
relationship. 
These two companies have built 

481
00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:30,200
over this, like, basically when 
you open Safari Google's, the 

482
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,000
people just forgot that like, 
because it's been this way 

483
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,500
forever since Steve Jobs, like, 
It's Google when you search in 

484
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:39,800
Safari, right? 
And so yeah, meta CFO. 

485
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,500
Dave, Winer on the earnings 
call, made a pretty unusual 

486
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:44,600
comment. 
I don't usually see like a 

487
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,300
company, this large their CFO 
like directly accusing. 

488
00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:50,200
Their two largest distribution 
providers of colluding on an 

489
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,600
earnings call but that's 
basically what he did and he 

490
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,600
said, look like the way Apple 
has rolled out this app tracking

491
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,600
stuff which Tom you and I 
covered it. 

492
00:23:57,608 --> 00:24:01,200
The information and is like 
disrupted, a lot of things, not 

493
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,100
just meta, but he's but they 
were like the way it applies 

494
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:08,800
just to a Not browsers where it 
blocks tracking between apps but

495
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,000
not like in a browser 
necessarily and also like favors

496
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,400
first-party data. 
So Google has more first-party 

497
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,300
data than any other company on 
Earth. 

498
00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:21,400
Arguably. 
Sure seems to preference Google 

499
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,000
and you can actually see a 
Divergence in like Google's 

500
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,400
earnings relative to all the app
based advertising businesses and

501
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,400
Google had a monster quarter in 
e-commerce and Retail meta had a

502
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,800
terrible quarter in e-commerce 
and Retail. 

503
00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:37,700
Well, and those are the two ones
that rely the most on very 

504
00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:40,800
granular like d2c brand type 
targeting. 

505
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,100
And if this preference is 
first-party data, it 

506
00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:46,900
incentivizes companies to 
basically merge with each other,

507
00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:48,700
right? 
It could have impact that that's

508
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:50,100
true. 
That game that's a downstream 

509
00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:52,900
effect but I think more close to
the Google issue. 

510
00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:55,700
Is that there's a there's a 
reporting and measurement issue 

511
00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:58,400
here where Apple broke the 
ability to see real time how 

512
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,500
these ads were performing an 
app. 

513
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,900
So like metas was showing people
during Christmas like you used 

514
00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:06,200
to like a lot of brands. 
Adjust their spend in the middle

515
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,300
of the day during like the 
holidays because it's a very 

516
00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:11,100
like big time and they're 
getting a lot of new customers. 

517
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:14,400
They had like a multi-day delay 
and like reporting, whereas 

518
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,000
Google still has perfect data, 
perfect Insight real-time 

519
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,800
reporting. 
And so of course, all that spend

520
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,300
is going to shift into search. 
And so the CFO is basically 

521
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:26,900
saying he said as long as this 
policy exists, this default 

522
00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:29,000
agreement that they've worked 
out where they're paying each 

523
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,600
other. 
Apple has no incentive to to 

524
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,400
apply this philosophy of 
tracking A fairly and their mind

525
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,300
and fairly to them is like 
tracking is not just like 

526
00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:41,700
tracking between an app. 
It's like, if a company builds a

527
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:45,500
profile on you, without your 
explicit, like, consent or 

528
00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,300
really knowledge of what that 
profile is, that's like against 

529
00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:51,000
the ethos of what Apple says it 
supports. 

530
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,000
And so Google has that they have
the probably the best profiles 

531
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,900
on because they know our intent 
right with search. 

532
00:25:56,900 --> 00:25:59,000
It's just a different. 
So that was met as argument. 

533
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,100
I think it's an interesting 
argument. 

534
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:02,100
There's absolutely no evidence 
to support that. 

535
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,800
The reason Apple and Google did 
this is to fuck with me. 

536
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,800
Do I do in your heart of hearts?
Believe that Apple just cares 

537
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,300
about privacy and is doing these
things on a pure. 

538
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,200
What's best for privacy? 
I think there's, I think apple 

539
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,800
is so big that there are 
factions of Apple that view this

540
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,800
differently. 
I think it's true that like, in 

541
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,700
the Tim Cook World, they do 
actually have a pretty high 

542
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:27,600
minded view of this. 
It's also like a very smart 

543
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,000
brand positioning because like 
all of other Big Tex getting 

544
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,100
pushed towards like abusing 
privacy. 

545
00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:35,100
So it's very smart to position 
yourself as like the You know, 

546
00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:39,300
we're in urine control brand, 
but there are other parts of the

547
00:26:39,308 --> 00:26:41,800
company that are feel a 
differently. 

548
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,200
And I think like the rollout of 
this app thing was a 

549
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,100
transparency. 
Tracking thing was a perfect 

550
00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:49,100
example of like, I bet the App 
Store team didn't necessarily 

551
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:51,300
know that the product team was 
going to roll it out this way 

552
00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:52,700
and if they had, they would have
said, hold on. 

553
00:26:52,700 --> 00:26:56,700
This is going to like fuck with 
our major, like portion of our 

554
00:26:56,700 --> 00:26:59,400
developers who rely on this kind
of targeting for app install 

555
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,200
ads. 
So I do think Apple just like is

556
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,700
too big to necessarily like have
a defined View of it, but 

557
00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:08,400
there's a lot of like, 
self-serving in this positioning

558
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,000
and like Tim Cook. 
Absolutely hates. 

559
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,600
Mark, Zuckerberg wants to 
destroy meta wishes that 

560
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,400
Facebook was never on the App 
Store. 

561
00:27:15,700 --> 00:27:19,700
Why can't you are? 
Because I think they felt like 

562
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:25,300
the bad PR that Facebook has 
gone through kind of have bled 

563
00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:26,800
to them a little bit. 
I don't know if that's 

564
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,900
necessarily fair but like since 
they're the phone that you get 

565
00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:33,800
these apps on, they just don't 
want to be associated with 

566
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,400
learning. 
Potential like company helping 

567
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,300
Russia when an election or 
something like that. 

568
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,600
And I also think it's about 
what's coming next which is 

569
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:48,100
headsets and this like a rvr war
and I do think met Aviva, Apple 

570
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:50,700
will be probably the most 
interesting like Tech business 

571
00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:53,300
story of the next like 10 years 
and so mad about you. 

572
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:55,300
Tim Cook is mad about something 
that's not going to happen for 

573
00:27:55,300 --> 00:27:57,200
like 10 to 15 years at the 
earliest. 

574
00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:59,900
No, no, like this headset. 
I mean, apples headsets hitting 

575
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:01,900
very soon hitting. 
Maybe this year. 

576
00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:03,900
At least, they're not announce 
it by the end of this year and 

577
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:05,700
that had say next, Cost of 
Fortune. 

578
00:28:05,700 --> 00:28:07,400
It's knocking. 
I reported, they were looking at

579
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,400
like a three thousand dollar 
price point. 

580
00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:12,100
It's a talent War right now. 
So they're trying to hire the 

581
00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:15,600
same people to work on the same 
problems like meta and apple, 

582
00:28:16,100 --> 00:28:19,700
and if you can make the other 
company like sound and look so 

583
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:22,600
bad and like its stock tank. 
So that like, when you're at a 

584
00:28:22,608 --> 00:28:25,600
cocktail party, you'd rather say
you work at Apple than meta on a

585
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,500
are they need to bring back with
the Eric Schmidt, Steve Jobs 

586
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:31,800
days? 
I mean collusion is much better 

587
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,100
for business than common seems 
like they're already. 

588
00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:37,900
I mean, And Google have this 
weird symbiotic relationship in 

589
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:39,900
so many ways. 
Like, Google cloud is the 

590
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,300
hosting provider for iCloud, 
backup. 

591
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,300
Your like listen, Eric, they are
still colluding, we just don't 

592
00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:46,700
know about it for another 
decade. 

593
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,300
Yeah. 
Google is just probably the most

594
00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:51,400
like, incredible business that's
ever been built. 

595
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,700
Because I mean they can even 
just like when they're doing 

596
00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:56,800
deals with oems. 
They can be like will give you a

597
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,300
small percentage of search 
Revenue through your devices. 

598
00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:02,100
And that's just like you can't. 
No other company. 

599
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:05,500
Has that leverage or that 
ability to give stuff like For 

600
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:09,300
Partnerships and I just yeah I 
mean, unless Google unless it 

601
00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:11,900
gets broken up, Google is like 
going to keep running the world 

602
00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:13,900
and definitely because they just
have all the data. 

603
00:29:13,900 --> 00:29:16,100
But Facebook saw this coming a 
long time ago. 

604
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:18,700
This idea that they were always 
going to be, you know, in a 

605
00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:21,500
weaker position from an ad 
perspective because they don't 

606
00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:23,500
have search. 
And you remember all the times a

607
00:29:23,508 --> 00:29:25,300
couple years ago, they were 
trying to build search 

608
00:29:25,300 --> 00:29:29,100
functionality into like the 
Facebook search bar, which that 

609
00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:31,900
was a lawyer over and over 
again, but they knew that 

610
00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:34,700
there's something inherently 
more valuable to being. 

611
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,200
The service that takes you to 
the thing that you wanted, you 

612
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,200
know, that you want to learn 
more about like the lower intent

613
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,200
or two higher intent lower down 
the funnel rather than just 

614
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,600
like, you know, obviously 
there's huge value and 

615
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,400
importance to your social life 
and you know, your information 

616
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,800
ecosystem, but it's still way, 
way way less important than 

617
00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:57,800
literally here. 
Like, you know, knowledge, just,

618
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,300
yeah, the entirety of your 
brain, which is what I mean, 

619
00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:02,200
Google is just a reflection of 
your brain. 

620
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,500
It's the most brilliant. 
Add product ever invented. 

621
00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:08,300
Yeah, so I don't know. 
I think the apple is the meta 

622
00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:10,000
thing is real. 
I think it's only going to get 

623
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,100
worse from here because meta has
the Strategic advantage that as 

624
00:30:14,108 --> 00:30:16,200
long as the Wall Street allows 
them to do this. 

625
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,200
Like, Mark is kind of in a Bezos
type mindset of like your margin

626
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:24,200
is my opportunity with Apple. 
So he's intentionally pricing 

627
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,100
their Hardware like below costs 
like they're losing money so 

628
00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:33,000
that, you know, Apple won't do 
that, they can't do that for 

629
00:30:33,008 --> 00:30:34,400
their business model and their 
margins. 

630
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,300
And so, Like apple will have the
high-end maybe and they'll be 

631
00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:40,600
the Android. 
And so, it's actually a pretty 

632
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,600
smart strategy against Apple. 
But one that won't really be 

633
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,800
valuable for at least 10 years. 
No, no, no VR will be much. 

634
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:51,400
So like, yeah, but driving like 
impactful for its business, I 

635
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,600
mean, sure, you can ship a 
couple of units, but VR based on

636
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,900
everything I read in here. 
I think we'll be hitting console

637
00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:00,500
level. 
It already sold more than the 

638
00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:03,000
Xbox last year. 
The quest, I think their 

639
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,200
totality of VR will be selling 
On soul level, like Global 

640
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,700
shipments in the next 3, S years
and probably approaching PC 

641
00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:12,300
within five I think is like the 
general consensus. 

642
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:16,700
So that's you're talking tens 
igneous, to use VR regularly for

643
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:18,800
to be valuable, right? 
I mean they don't want to they 

644
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,200
will they can't just make the 
money off, Hardware Sales, you 

645
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,300
need, you know, real yeah. 
Yeah yeah. 

646
00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:27,000
I'm sure you talked about this 
in the Phil libin interview 

647
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,100
right where he was just like he 
buys them all and put some in a 

648
00:31:31,100 --> 00:31:32,600
clothes suck right now. 
Yeah. 

649
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,700
But like what's coming is the 
mixed reality. 

650
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,400
Any idea where it's like passed 
through video. 

651
00:31:37,700 --> 00:31:41,600
And so, we are sucks because 
it's isolating and the screens 

652
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,100
aren't very good and it's bulky 
and it doesn't feel good on your

653
00:31:44,100 --> 00:31:46,300
face and there's not good audio.
All, that's changing. 

654
00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:48,600
Like apple didn't you? 
Ask Jana Reeves about this? 

655
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,500
He was very skeptical. 
I thought, oh yeah, I asked he 

656
00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:57,800
clowned on me about in ft's And 
so like when you think about the

657
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,400
concept of digital scarcity and 
things that are, you know, they 

658
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,100
can't be copied that are easily 
reproduced. 

659
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,300
Well, they're not the same, 
right? 

660
00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:10,700
It's not fake version of you. 
I wonder what our do. 

661
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:12,100
We get a cut of that? 
Oh no. 

662
00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:13,300
I don't. 
Actually, I don't think we're in

663
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:15,100
him. 
They probably did other people. 

664
00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:16,600
You have to take that up with 
the studio? 

665
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,000
And yeah, man. 
I missed all of this. 

666
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,600
Oh yeah. 
Using see this Tom, no, he that 

667
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,700
was fun. 
It was like, kids face. 

668
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,700
Realize it was you, right? 
But he was like, you were sort 

669
00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:31,100
of the mystery man on the other 
side of it. 

670
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:32,900
Yeah. 
In a viral moment. 

671
00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:35,600
Yeah, yeah. 
He was like, you know, can the 

672
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,000
metaverse not be owned by 
Facebook. 

673
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,200
That's an old idea. 
Like that goes, way, way back 

674
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,600
and I asked her about NF T's. 
And he just, like, lay out this 

675
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,400
hyena, like laughs. 
It was like, right? 

676
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,100
But my point is, you're you're a
bit of A True True Believer on, 

677
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,100
on the VR stuff. 
I mean, you're talking. 

678
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:55,100
I see where the hardware is 
going. 

679
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,300
I mean, I see where the Hardware
and software is going and I 

680
00:32:57,300 --> 00:33:01,500
think the trend of tech is that 
more immersive. 

681
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,000
Engaging technology always wins 
and that's what these headsets 

682
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,400
are going to be doing soon. 
So like who is not going to 

683
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:12,500
maybe want to try IMAX on their 
face like for like a really cool

684
00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:15,500
video game with like spatial 
audio and like maybe a social 

685
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,200
that's coming in the next year 
to two years because like Met 

686
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,400
has got their own version of 
that that will be high end. 

687
00:33:20,700 --> 00:33:23,600
So that Tech will start high end
at the price will come down over

688
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,000
the next few years and then they
are glasses will About probably 

689
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,900
five to eight the v1's of those 
and that's like more for outside

690
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:33,300
these headsets are all inside, 
but they're going to be like a 

691
00:33:33,308 --> 00:33:37,900
PC companion. / replacement in 
terms of like the quality very 

692
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:40,300
soon. 
Explain to me what the five 

693
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:42,400
years from now. 
A our experience is going to be 

694
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,500
like will have like these 
headsets in our homes that we 

695
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:49,100
want to use for like either 
resumes or maybe like working 

696
00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:51,300
because there's already like 
pretty robust hand tracking and 

697
00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:54,600
keyboard stuff and like they'll 
be armbands. 

698
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:55,700
Met has got one they're working 
on. 

699
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,200
On that, like, can do EMG like a
rager kind of muscle signals to 

700
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,800
have like, Phantom limbs for 
like typing without even really 

701
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,300
moving. 
That's all that's all coming. 

702
00:34:05,300 --> 00:34:08,300
Let's not get weird shit. 
Okay, yeah, Works yet. 

703
00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:11,600
I mean all this starts, I'm 
always saying on this show to 

704
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,900
argue for the metaverse like 
replacing zoom and browsing 

705
00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:18,000
guess. 
Huge like that's it's huge. 

706
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:22,500
And also like better gaming like
when I interviewed Zach last 

707
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:25,699
year, I mean, he made the point 
that like they're like people 

708
00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:29,000
We'll spend on average four to 
six hours a day. 

709
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,000
Watching television screens in 
their homes. 

710
00:34:31,100 --> 00:34:34,699
And those are like these like to
deeply panels way up on a wall. 

711
00:34:34,699 --> 00:34:38,600
This is my Superior. 
So yeah, but like is it as big 

712
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,699
as dual 8K displays on your 
face? 

713
00:34:40,699 --> 00:34:44,000
What's special audio, right? 
Like that's the thing like when 

714
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,000
you when you tried the stuff 
with eye tracking, which like 

715
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,900
makes it so that the it's not as
hot. 

716
00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:51,800
And like it renders way cleaner 
and you don't get a sick like 

717
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:53,500
this text already been about 
everything. 

718
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:56,900
I would say, that's my yeah. 
I mean, I probably sound 

719
00:34:56,900 --> 00:34:59,300
ridiculous. 
I just like, based on like, were

720
00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:00,800
I see, I know everyone who comes
on. 

721
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,200
Here is like, VR is a joke but 
like the tech is getting very 

722
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,900
good and we just haven't seen a 
mass consumer version of it yet,

723
00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:09,600
but it's coming. 
Very, what about your point is 

724
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,800
that the best consumer adoption 
will happen when the tech meets 

725
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:13,600
it? 
Which you think is going to 

726
00:35:13,607 --> 00:35:16,500
happen and imminently like in 
the Apple V1? 

727
00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:18,700
Yeah. 
Apple V1 will be probably 

728
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:22,900
shipped by next year, announced 
this year and then metas doing a

729
00:35:22,908 --> 00:35:25,000
tie in Cambria had set this year
as well. 

730
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,400
But how RB is almost the 
counter-argument to this like 

731
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,300
Snap Facebook. 
Like they're all like second 

732
00:35:31,300 --> 00:35:33,400
screen apps. 
Like part of the beauty of 

733
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,100
Television is that you can do 
something else, you can look 

734
00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:41,800
over at your partner or 
significant know, you can like 

735
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,100
Beyond these headsets though. 
Like that's the idea is like you

736
00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:46,000
could do with anyone in the 
world. 

737
00:35:46,008 --> 00:35:48,800
Like you like your avatar. 
Could pop in just looking over 

738
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,600
at your avatar. 
The second time happening 

739
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,200
basically, in, in the device 
itself. 

740
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,500
Well, I get this time, I get to 
cynicism, Awesome, but it is 

741
00:35:56,500 --> 00:36:00,900
better than like me texting you 
next to me like you I would feel

742
00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:04,000
like you're more next to me. 
If it was an avatar then like I 

743
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,000
guess, I mean if you're still 
putting on a device and so 

744
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,800
you're already making a 
commitment beyond the sort of 

745
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,500
like passive, you know, moment 
of like oh let me see what Alex 

746
00:36:13,500 --> 00:36:16,200
is up to let me text him versus 
like yeah, put on the fucking 

747
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,600
headset, right? 
It's like a cinema noticed every

748
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,400
season is ugly outside. 
Oh, this is gonna be a long 

749
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,100
commitment where as well? 
That's good. 

750
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,000
Describe the process of getting 
on the handset of being 

751
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,300
cumbersome, phones used to suck 
like trying to navigate typing 

752
00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:34,300
on a phone sucked. 
Like, before the I we just got 

753
00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:36,300
you're saying the technology 
didn't change all that much. 

754
00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:38,900
We just decided that it's Kris 
would be talking about 

755
00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:41,900
multi-touch touchscreen, 
keyboards, like dictation. 

756
00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:44,500
Like, we have so many more ways 
of texting now than we did 10 

757
00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:47,100
years ago. 
Like, I mean, are pause where we

758
00:36:47,100 --> 00:36:48,900
can just say things to people 
over text. 

759
00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:51,200
Like I'm just saying that you 
and I are pod guy, you're just 

760
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,000
walking around on the street, 
dictate all the time all the 

761
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,800
time. 
Where your soul is here on that.

762
00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:01,000
Yeah, I just I like to take the 
opposite view. 

763
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,500
He kills everyone in the deaf. 
I definitely blend in and so 

764
00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:06,700
really. 
Yeah, I think, like, everyone in

765
00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:10,200
media loves to just, like, shed 
on this stuff and I get it. 

766
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,800
It's like very goofy right now. 
But like, if you actually study 

767
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,900
how good the hardware is getting
and where the companies are 

768
00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:19,200
making their bets, like, you 
must think that Tim Cook Mark 

769
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,800
Zuckerberg, Evan, Spiegel Satya 
Nadella, whatever the fuck 

770
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,900
Amazon's doing. 
Like, they're all stupid, they 

771
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:27,700
all don't like, They're all 
making the same bet. 

772
00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:31,100
Like it's the only thing apple 
and meta agree on is that these 

773
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:32,800
headsets are important to be 
clear. 

774
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,600
I believe. 
I think it's a tight timeline 

775
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,500
question and yeah, you know, you
can invest too early but I agree

776
00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:42,300
with you mostly well, giving you
a, let's move on. 

777
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:43,800
Let's move off. 
Let's talk about the people. 

778
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,300
I mean you guys both have 
obsessed over Evan Spiegel 

779
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:52,100
unhealthily at times. 
Like what the I mean? 

780
00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:54,900
Where does he still see? 
Himself is like the genius and 

781
00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:57,900
he's been sort of, huh? 
Mumbled like he had these sort 

782
00:37:57,900 --> 00:38:02,000
of like, you know, he tried to 
do spectacles, he's not a big 

783
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,000
player in this future. 
I don't know what sort of what's

784
00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:07,800
due talk. 
Why doesn't God Alex is closer 

785
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,400
to this than I am? 
It's been a couple of years. 

786
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,500
Yeah, that's good. 
Yeah, I've talked to him. 

787
00:38:12,500 --> 00:38:16,100
I think there was a time where 
you could say oh he's like the 

788
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:18,000
next Steve Jobs and people 
wouldn't be like oh that's 

789
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,600
crazy. 
But I think he was trying to get

790
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,300
that image rice, but that jobs, 
portrait is in his office. 

791
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,600
And here's the interesting thing
about The outside you tell me 

792
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,900
how wrong I am about this? 
Alex has again, everything I'm 

793
00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:31,500
saying is multiple multiple 
years out of date, what I find. 

794
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:34,700
So interesting about snap these 
days is that as a business, it's

795
00:38:34,700 --> 00:38:36,900
never been better. 
Write their cash flow positive. 

796
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:38,800
Something that I did not think 
was going to happen, it's 

797
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,100
possible. 
Yeah, you know, they are growing

798
00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:46,800
in India which is something that
Evan had zero interest in doing 

799
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,100
a couple of years ago. 
Every fucking night. 

800
00:38:49,100 --> 00:38:53,000
I get a push alert from snap 
telling me that so-and-so added,

801
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,900
you know, to their new story 
which is something that Ian 

802
00:38:55,900 --> 00:38:59,200
would have murdered an engineer 
for suggesting that they do on a

803
00:38:59,207 --> 00:39:01,100
regular can turn that off. 
I have that off by the way. 

804
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:03,600
Oh yeah. 
Well I, if I cared more I would 

805
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,700
I just like to be reminded that 
certain people back to their 

806
00:39:06,700 --> 00:39:09,000
stories, but look, the level of 
push alerts. 

807
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,700
That snap is doing Snapchat. 
Whatever is like, leagues, 

808
00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:14,600
beyond anything that Evan would 
have wanted to do. 

809
00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:17,500
He's sold them as we were saying
he gave up on the business. 

810
00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:20,100
He built a business, he got two 
kids, and, yeah, he is 

811
00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:23,100
fundamentally had to give up 
certain aspects of what he 

812
00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:25,700
expected. 
This company to be in order to 

813
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,200
Build something that is more 
appealing to to the markets and 

814
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,500
I find it you know it good for 
him, he's built a business, he's

815
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:35,000
built value for people but the 
certainly wasn't the company 

816
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,400
that I thought he wanted to have
done back in like 2015. 

817
00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:42,100
Do you think they were just 
going to be all like spectacles 

818
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:43,500
by now? 
Like this. 

819
00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:46,000
Just like no snapshot of well. 
Okay, look, there's certain 

820
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,500
things that he had to give up 
like, you know, in-app purchases

821
00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:49,900
being book. 
You know, the core business 

822
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:52,800
rather than advertisements but 
like they're tracking people as 

823
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:54,800
much as anyone else can in 
order. 

824
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,500
Sure if, you know, Value with 
their advertisements, they need 

825
00:39:57,500 --> 00:39:59,500
to hit their numbers. 
So they have to do push alerts 

826
00:39:59,500 --> 00:40:02,900
to like Show, You Know, da you 
increases above 20%, you know, 

827
00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:05,400
year over year. 
These are all things that like a

828
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,700
boring ass, Silicon Valley tech 
company has to do in order to be

829
00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:12,000
a successful business. 
And listen, buddy, we all grow 

830
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,600
up one day. 
We all have to get there, but 

831
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,000
it's it's not the most inspiring
thing. 

832
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:19,300
Well, he's very, you know, her 
with his billions of dollars. 

833
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:22,200
I think like, yeah, the 
notification thing you're 

834
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,000
harping on. 
I don't really get because the 

835
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,900
main thing is Which requires 
notifications to tell you if 

836
00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:29,600
someone has responded to your 
message. 

837
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,300
So now that's what I'm talking 
about. 

838
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:33,900
Like just pure up like 
engagement juicing, which is 

839
00:40:33,900 --> 00:40:36,400
what like a push alert saying 
so-and-so, a still think. 

840
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,400
Yeah. 
But you, I'd are doing it more 

841
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:39,700
than they used to. 
Wait. 

842
00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:41,600
Wait, turn that off like I 
turned it off. 

843
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,200
You can turn them off at 
Facebook to. 

844
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:45,000
It doesn't mean that it isn't 
like a core part of their 

845
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,600
strategy now though. 
Sure. 

846
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,800
I just like yeah, they're doing 
things. 

847
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,700
They he didn't ever wanted to 
do. 

848
00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:52,800
He didn't know he, you know 
this, he never wanted to be an 

849
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,000
advertising company. 
That was like something, he got 

850
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,700
kind of pushed him to Doing 
because there was no other way 

851
00:40:56,700 --> 00:40:58,400
at the time, there was no crypto
web. 

852
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,300
They wanted to be taxed like 
yeah. 

853
00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:03,300
And they're put there doing this
super app strategy. 

854
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,700
The problem I think with them 
and their perception, is that 

855
00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:09,200
the user base is just so 
different from anyone who covers

856
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,100
them and so you know people 
don't cover them like they do 

857
00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:16,700
Twitter or matter or whatever 
but like I would I would argue 

858
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:19,900
that there's still in terms of 
like hits on the board. 

859
00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:23,200
There's no other social media 
company that has invented so 

860
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,700
many formats and ideas that have
been Keep Bic like ubiquitously 

861
00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:30,900
copied like bitmoji, like Met 
has literally just now getting 

862
00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:34,900
around to copying that snap. 
They copied with Ray-Ban, like, 

863
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:38,300
literally everything snap has 
done except maybe the map thing 

864
00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:40,600
because that's special to them. 
And like the close friends 

865
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,800
aspect of it has been copied and
so likewise that now, right? 

866
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,900
I mean it's sort of well they 
have find my right. 

867
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:49,100
Like if you do snap map it's way
different. 

868
00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:51,900
It has a bunch of like extra 
layers to it and social stuff 

869
00:41:51,900 --> 00:41:54,700
that sort of like my doesn't he?
And now look I'm not 

870
00:41:54,700 --> 00:41:58,000
criticizing. 
Evans foresight and talent as a 

871
00:41:58,008 --> 00:42:00,000
product Visionary. 
I'm just saying the business 

872
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,000
that he's ended up with, which 
is now a very good one. 

873
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:05,400
It is pretty much. 
Just a symbolism brings 

874
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,400
everybody to their heels, you 
know, like look at my cleavage. 

875
00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:10,900
You have quarterly earnings. 
Yeah. 

876
00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:12,500
Like sure. 
It's more like Facebook but it's

877
00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:15,700
also like a Better Business than
Twitter and it's younger than 

878
00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:17,500
Twitter and it's like already 
make. 

879
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,300
I mean like Global assets at 
least it's not Twitter. 

880
00:42:20,300 --> 00:42:24,900
Like at least like it's growing 
and I don't know, the spectacles

881
00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:26,900
thing is the thing I'm Most 
bearish on honestly. 

882
00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:29,600
Like, I think he maybe has 
aspirations to be a software 

883
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,300
layer and like, kind of advisor 
to a hardware company or an oem 

884
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:36,300
on the glasses, down the road. 
But do you get us have the, is 

885
00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:37,800
he happy with where they are 
now? 

886
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,700
Or he's sort of like, the type 
of person? 

887
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,500
You know, I need to be a top ten
company at some point, or, I'll 

888
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:46,600
know think he thinks in terms of
market cap, clearly not in terms

889
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,800
of like valuation, because he 
had multiple chances to sell 

890
00:42:50,900 --> 00:42:54,300
astronomical valuations. 
He's very into this AR thing 

891
00:42:54,300 --> 00:42:56,400
again. 
It's like when I look at Devon 

892
00:42:56,700 --> 00:43:01,300
Zack cook that who are I would 
say the three maybe most like 

893
00:43:01,300 --> 00:43:04,200
accomplished people still 
leading tech companies right 

894
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,100
now. 
In terms of like their strategy 

895
00:43:06,100 --> 00:43:09,200
Minds You could argue snaps. 
Still has a lot to prove. 

896
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,100
But I think in terms of what we 
just talked about what they've 

897
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:12,700
invented, they think I had in 
there, right? 

898
00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:15,300
A lot of the time, they all 
agree that like this are 

899
00:43:15,300 --> 00:43:18,500
glasses, thing is coming and 
it's going to be huge and that's

900
00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:20,800
where he's spending a lot of his
time as on the a our software 

901
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,100
and on Snap lab where I reported
they are Tom do you remember the

902
00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:25,500
Drone thing? 
They were going to do. 

903
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:28,100
Sure, they've revived with the 
Drone. 

904
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:31,000
Drones are back as because 
they're finally making money. 

905
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,500
They want to, like, do a bunch 
of Hardware shed and I wouldn't 

906
00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:37,000
be surprised if there's a watch 
and multiple glasses and like 

907
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,000
companion devices. 
Like he's got this Hardware 

908
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,700
strategy that they just do not 
have the resources to compete at

909
00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:46,500
scale with apple and metal on, 
they have good talent. 

910
00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:49,600
They have creative people but 
like they don't, you know, it 

911
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,800
still has that Underdog feel to 
it as a company. 

912
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,400
I still think he views it as 
like we're here to like throw 

913
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,900
darts at meta. 
And like be the anti Meadow 

914
00:43:57,900 --> 00:43:59,800
which in the stock market, they 
definitely were this week. 

915
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,300
Yeah, no I mean he's definitely 
if that's still a core tenet of 

916
00:44:03,308 --> 00:44:06,700
his it's been a good week. 
Yeah it's good for recruiting, 

917
00:44:06,700 --> 00:44:09,300
it's good for like you know, 
people recruiting people from 

918
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:13,400
Mehta who are disillusioned and 
you know there's a huge Talent 

919
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,000
we're going on for all this air 
of stuff. 

920
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,600
So like it's important to have 
your brand be like considered 

921
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,900
the kind of cool Underdog but I 
don't know. 

922
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:22,800
I tried the new spectacles, the 
I think you guys talked about, I

923
00:44:22,808 --> 00:44:25,000
think you made fun of my demo at
one point on the show. 

924
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:28,700
Uh-huh. 
I like and how as you know 

925
00:44:28,700 --> 00:44:31,900
positively I wrote about them 
but like it's more just like 

926
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:34,400
it's they're not good now, like 
they're not anything normal. 

927
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,300
People are going to wear and 
that's why they're not selling 

928
00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:39,500
them to people. 
But like it's very easy to see 

929
00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:42,100
that this is going to get good 
and like that they've got the 

930
00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:45,400
pieces to make it good and like 
there's like a scan thing where 

931
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,300
like once the scanning Tech, 
it's good like you've got visual

932
00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:51,500
search on your face, like, all 
this stuff is going to be 

933
00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:53,400
hitting. 
It's just like not it's early, 

934
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,800
it's early days, but it's, it's 
I can See where it's more than 

935
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,200
just like a magically come. 
Look at our Magic Box 

936
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,800
experiment. 
It's like it's actually starting

937
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,200
to work in the real world. 
It's just not great yet. 

938
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,900
Do you want to spend a minute on
Pinterest or should we should we

939
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:09,300
respond? 
What do you, what do you think 

940
00:45:09,300 --> 00:45:11,300
about Pinterest? 
Tom, because you covered, you 

941
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:12,600
covered Pinterest more over the 
years. 

942
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,100
I've dabbled in, and out, but it
looks like there have lost. 

943
00:45:15,100 --> 00:45:18,400
Like it reminds me of snapping. 
Like the Nick Bell leaving are 

944
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:23,100
alike, 2018 2017, when every 
week was like I was hearing that

945
00:45:23,100 --> 00:45:25,400
another exact was leaving snap 
and it seems like that's the 

946
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:26,700
case. 
With Pinterest right now. 

947
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,800
And we're talking, I was talking
about this with Eric before we 

948
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,800
started, I'm always a little and
I'm guilty of this myself. 

949
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,800
I do think reporters get a 
little over excited or maybe 

950
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,000
over index for executives or 
leaving company. 

951
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,600
Therefore, it's in complete 
turmoil. 

952
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,500
I think we're in a unique time 
now, where people don't really 

953
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:46,000
want to work at large companies 
and certainly not large social 

954
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,000
media companies. 
And so, you know, Pinterest 

955
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:50,700
social media over the fuck they 
are. 

956
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:54,400
You know, they're some sort of 
amalgam of a Silicon Valley ad 

957
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,500
tech company. 
That also Has like a social 

958
00:45:56,500 --> 00:45:59,700
layer to it but yeah they've 
lost a couple of Executives. 

959
00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:02,600
The information reported that 
I'm sure it messed things up for

960
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,100
them, but I also think they lost
like 9i. 

961
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,400
That's the thing, it's like it's
a snap level, like clear the 

962
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,800
bench. 
Like what it signals to me 

963
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,600
whenever I read because there 
were MMA rumors about them with 

964
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,500
Michael, right? 
So that that's more damaging to 

965
00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:19,600
me than anything because I yeah 
that yes that that should be me 

966
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,100
that says, because they had a 
corked of left. 

967
00:46:22,100 --> 00:46:26,000
Like and so like that to me says
that a lot of the senior Can 

968
00:46:26,100 --> 00:46:28,400
file people. 
A lot of the senior people 

969
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,900
wanted to sell Ben Silverman 
didn't or they couldn't get a 

970
00:46:30,908 --> 00:46:33,000
good deal done another all 
leaving and that right that's 

971
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,400
actually more than just like a 
couple execs leaving. 

972
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,100
I mean I think it's like nine at
this point. 

973
00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:40,900
Sure it's not great. 
Yeah I do think it's fair to 

974
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,800
countenance that with the fact 
that there are a lot of 

975
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,900
Executives leaving a lot of not 
particularly inspiring sure but 

976
00:46:46,900 --> 00:46:50,100
he's these days. 
So you know you can you can make

977
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:51,000
of that. 
What you want? 

978
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,200
I think Pinterest is an 
incredible advertising vehicle. 

979
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,100
If you just think about like the
core product itself, it is very,

980
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:03,100
you know, corporate or sorry. 
It's very product adjacent and 

981
00:47:03,100 --> 00:47:05,100
so their ability to make money 
from. 

982
00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:08,000
It is pretty huge. 
I think the problem that they 

983
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,700
have is that they're losing 
users and you know it, yeah, and

984
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:15,200
and good talent, I mean that the
app doesn't do you use the app? 

985
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,000
No, not the app. 
I use the service from time to 

986
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,300
time because I've been, you got 
some real operating on. 

987
00:47:21,300 --> 00:47:23,300
Yeah, that's why. 
Yeah, you know, the times of 

988
00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:25,500
people use it, which is like you
did when you dip out like that. 

989
00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:28,800
So, social media so much, my 
wife is an interior designer. 

990
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,600
She uses Pinterest all day 
everyday, like power user. 

991
00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:34,500
She always is like this app 
sucks. 

992
00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:36,600
Like every time she's like, it 
doesn't work. 

993
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,500
It just breaks. 
Like it doesn't make sense the 

994
00:47:38,500 --> 00:47:41,600
way to navigate it. 
So that to me says like from 

995
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,300
someone who knows it really well
that they just probably don't 

996
00:47:43,300 --> 00:47:45,400
have like good engineering and 
like they're not hiring the best

997
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,700
people and they can't build the 
best product because this stock 

998
00:47:48,700 --> 00:47:50,600
is tanking and they don't have a
business yet. 

999
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,300
So they're in this like kind of 
death trap, it seems like well 

1000
00:47:53,300 --> 00:47:55,400
the the stock is tanking thing 
is relatively new. 

1001
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,200
I mean, if you look at this 
chart over the last year they 

1002
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:03,500
actually were a huge winner 
during endemic true but you know

1003
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:07,100
better to be that than not and 
you know their value is a 

1004
00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:09,200
company went up substantially 
over the course of last year. 

1005
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,600
It's obviously plummeted now and
I agree with you there in kind 

1006
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,700
of this nether region where even
though they got a lift after it 

1007
00:48:15,707 --> 00:48:18,000
turned out their numbers weren't
as bad as investors were 

1008
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:22,200
expecting post meta, they didn't
get the snap like bomb and so 

1009
00:48:22,207 --> 00:48:24,500
that is fundamentally. 
I think a better you know, it's 

1010
00:48:24,500 --> 00:48:28,300
a better app. 
And you know, a more sustainable

1011
00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:31,300
future and it doesn't seem like 
they've evolved that much from a

1012
00:48:31,300 --> 00:48:34,300
product standpoint. 
So I think they're probably this

1013
00:48:34,300 --> 00:48:36,400
is so out of my league but like 
I think they're probably in a 

1014
00:48:36,408 --> 00:48:39,900
stage where they can make a 
bunch more money overseas, you 

1015
00:48:39,900 --> 00:48:43,700
know, they were barely 
monetizing outside of the US and

1016
00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:46,700
so like you'll be able to see 
Revenue growth over the next, 

1017
00:48:46,700 --> 00:48:49,400
you know, year or two. 
But like the core question of 

1018
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,500
like, is this app going to grow?
Do they have, you know, some 

1019
00:48:52,500 --> 00:48:58,300
sort of a meta play or Something
that can, you know give a clear 

1020
00:48:58,300 --> 00:49:00,600
indication as to the next, the 
next stage. 

1021
00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:04,200
I don't I don't see it myself 
and I think the fact that they 

1022
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,300
probably came pretty close to 
selling to Microsoft, it's hard 

1023
00:49:08,300 --> 00:49:10,100
to get past that. 
I mean you could make an 

1024
00:49:10,100 --> 00:49:12,600
argument that Twitter even 
though the business is doing 

1025
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,600
better now. 
Never really, you know, changed 

1026
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,500
after that whole period in 2017 
when they were going to sell to 

1027
00:49:19,100 --> 00:49:22,000
conditioning, I know I know 
Google tried to buy Pinterest 

1028
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,400
to, I think it was before they 
listed Google has this ritual. 

1029
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:30,200
Like the air before any hot like
consumer or even really SAS, but

1030
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,500
definitely consumer like Network
effects company, goes to public.

1031
00:49:33,500 --> 00:49:36,600
They have a, you know, will give
you like above your listing 

1032
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,400
price like just come to Google 
anyway. 

1033
00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:41,000
They probably have stopped doing
that because of antitrust but 

1034
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,900
yeah, they they they definitely 
tried it with Pinterest. 

1035
00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:45,900
So I think that would perfect 
sense, right? 

1036
00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:49,100
If it's basically like a nice 
little like social layer on top 

1037
00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:50,900
of double-click. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1038
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,900
So I don't know it's not, I 
wouldn't be too bullish on them.

1039
00:49:55,500 --> 00:49:59,700
You know, we just were always 
obsessed with Mark Zuckerberg on

1040
00:49:59,700 --> 00:50:01,800
this show. 
I mean, I can tell I've been 

1041
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,900
trying to think over how to ask,
I mean, I want to know what you 

1042
00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:08,100
what you think's up with him, 
who sort of in the mix. 

1043
00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:12,000
But I mean, I think, you know, 
when we first got to know, like,

1044
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,800
when I first came to Silicon 
Valley, like, you know, this 

1045
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,000
sort of Facebook people, there 
is like an earnest You know, 

1046
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,800
they love product, they do like 
talking about the future. 

1047
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,900
And so, you know, if you read it
just like knowing their 

1048
00:50:27,900 --> 00:50:31,700
personalities, there's a sense 
that the sort of meta push is 

1049
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,400
sincere and that they like 
device is very sincere. 

1050
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:39,100
And I feel like that's a part of
the posture of reporting is 

1051
00:50:39,100 --> 00:50:42,300
like, you know, believing them 
to some degree on that. 

1052
00:50:42,300 --> 00:50:45,800
Whereas, whereas, like, I think 
a lot of, you know, sort of the,

1053
00:50:46,100 --> 00:50:48,500
I don't know, Wall Street 
Journal, Bloomberg types. 

1054
00:50:48,500 --> 00:50:51,800
You know, you can just become 
Very focused on the quarterly 

1055
00:50:52,500 --> 00:50:54,600
earnings and then you see 
everything is a game or if 

1056
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,400
you're obsessed with antitrust. 
You see it as like a messaging 

1057
00:50:58,700 --> 00:51:02,200
thing to get away from that. 
I don't know, that's sort of 

1058
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,300
just a statement of purpose. 
But I mean am I right to say 

1059
00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:07,900
that you believe you take them 
seriously. 

1060
00:51:07,900 --> 00:51:10,800
When they, when they seemed 
excited about sort of the 

1061
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,500
product piece of VR and, and 
sort of the meadow? 

1062
00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:17,700
Yeah, because it's more than 
just like words. 

1063
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:21,200
It's like the people who are 
moving Owing to that division. 

1064
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,800
The fact that it's like 15,000 
people. 

1065
00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:26,800
The fact that they spend over 10
billion a year on it. 

1066
00:51:27,300 --> 00:51:30,100
The fact that it's like we're 
zacha spending his time, like 

1067
00:51:30,100 --> 00:51:32,400
legitimately like, of course, I 
take it. 

1068
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:33,900
Seriously. 
I find reporters who. 

1069
00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:36,000
Don't take it seriously to be 
kind of. 

1070
00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:39,100
Unlike what do you, what is your
job was? 

1071
00:51:39,100 --> 00:51:41,900
Like, why are you? 
Why are you like just assuming 

1072
00:51:41,900 --> 00:51:45,400
that this is like and like check
and make sure, but you're just 

1073
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,600
assuming that this is like a 
joke because you're cynical 

1074
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,500
about the company. 
I think there's way too much. 

1075
00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:52,300
Cynicism about like their 
motives. 

1076
00:51:52,300 --> 00:51:55,000
And I'm not saying their motives
are pure by any means but like 

1077
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,100
yeah, no I do take it seriously.
I'm like, I'm not a like text 

1078
00:51:59,100 --> 00:52:01,900
synthesis either. 
Like I think Tech is cool. 

1079
00:52:01,900 --> 00:52:04,600
I think it can be misused, but I
think it's like also very cool. 

1080
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,900
It's why I got into this job is 
because I'm a nerd and like but 

1081
00:52:07,900 --> 00:52:12,600
I also like do the like, you 
know, Facebook disbanded its 

1082
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,800
Civic Integrity team. 
And here's why I type story, 

1083
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:15,700
right? 
I do that. 

1084
00:52:15,700 --> 00:52:19,800
But like I do take this 
seriously and I think I think 

1085
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:20,900
it's important that people do 
it. 

1086
00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:22,900
I mean, like, they may decide to
give up, but I think it's kind 

1087
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:24,400
of like no going back at this 
point. 

1088
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,300
Is the vibe that I get like this
is like, I was talking to 

1089
00:52:27,308 --> 00:52:31,900
someone and on the glasses, you 
know, Division and like they're 

1090
00:52:31,900 --> 00:52:34,600
like, this is I of Sauron, like 
Zuck on us. 

1091
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,000
Like, this is like, this is like
there. 

1092
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,600
It's the most intense. 
This person had worked and 

1093
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,800
Silicon Valley to bunch of big 
tech companies for a long time. 

1094
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,000
It was like this is the most 
intense founder involvement in 

1095
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,200
any like project I've ever seen.
I mean, I got to take that 

1096
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:50,700
seriously. 
The dude is like one of the most

1097
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:53,600
powerful people in the world so 
I don't know. 

1098
00:52:54,300 --> 00:52:56,000
I don't know. 
What do you Des if you think the

1099
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,300
media has become soft? 
What you got? 

1100
00:52:59,300 --> 00:53:00,700
Soft? 
No, I'm not calling you. 

1101
00:53:00,700 --> 00:53:04,900
So I do, I mean, I think part of
this show is like, we think that

1102
00:53:04,900 --> 00:53:08,100
reporter is got like to - I 
mean, there is like such a drum 

1103
00:53:08,100 --> 00:53:10,800
beat. 
There's just such a drumbeat 

1104
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,500
against, you know, if you'll 
like the media does want to 

1105
00:53:13,500 --> 00:53:17,700
dislodge like Mark Zuckerberg. 
Yeah, no kidding. 

1106
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,800
I mean like I guess the T. 
My thing is like I think it gets

1107
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,300
old, I think. 
People are sick of the same old 

1108
00:53:25,300 --> 00:53:30,800
like stories of like we found 
this Russia, you know, saying or

1109
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,500
the Macedonia teens on. 
I'm not saying those stories 

1110
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:36,500
aren't important, like they 
should keep happening, but I 

1111
00:53:36,500 --> 00:53:38,700
think the overall tenor of the 
coverage. 

1112
00:53:39,300 --> 00:53:42,200
Yeah, is like, just de facto 
cynical de facto. 

1113
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,600
This is a joke, like all the 
headlines this week are like, 

1114
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,400
this is the end of Facebook and 
like, I don't know, I just don't

1115
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,300
know if readers. 
Like I think others are subsets 

1116
00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:53,200
of readers who definitely love 
that and you're obviously 

1117
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:54,900
playing to that but I are like 
are you? 

1118
00:53:55,100 --> 00:53:57,800
I try to not think about like 
just one audience I'm like I 

1119
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,900
want the people who also work at
this company to read me and to 

1120
00:54:00,900 --> 00:54:03,400
feel like I'm critiquing the 
company and being harsh where I 

1121
00:54:03,408 --> 00:54:06,400
need to be. 
But also like I care about this 

1122
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,800
stuff and I'm not just like de 
facto slamming it, you know, 

1123
00:54:10,100 --> 00:54:14,300
what I was gonna say, I also 
think there is a very poor, like

1124
00:54:14,300 --> 00:54:16,600
one of the mistakes that 
reporters make in writing about 

1125
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,300
Facebook is they conflate social
problem. 

1126
00:54:19,500 --> 00:54:21,100
Eames. 
And the impact that a company's 

1127
00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:24,800
technology has on society with 
its business and you see that 

1128
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,800
happening with Joe Rogan now. 
You know at Spotify they're like

1129
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,500
oh you know, after Neil Young 
announced that he was going to 

1130
00:54:30,508 --> 00:54:33,500
be pulling his catalog from 
Spotify, its stock fell 10%, 

1131
00:54:33,500 --> 00:54:35,400
it's like you fucking idiots, 
that is nothing. 

1132
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,000
That's not the reason the stock 
fell and then it came up the 

1133
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,900
next day like for fuck's sake. 
That's the other thing is like 

1134
00:54:41,100 --> 00:54:44,600
my stories, the reason Facebook 
declined 1% unless you got 

1135
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:49,900
numbers that like a million, you
know, like hackers have Straight

1136
00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:52,400
like their infrastructure like 
and they haven't announced it 

1137
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,100
yet, you're not moving the stock
of a company that large like, 

1138
00:54:55,100 --> 00:54:56,300
that's, that's another pet 
peeve. 

1139
00:54:56,300 --> 00:54:57,200
I have anyway. 
Sorry. 

1140
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:58,700
Right. 
But also, you know, in the case 

1141
00:54:58,700 --> 00:55:01,100
of Facebook, I really think 
there were a lot of reporters 

1142
00:55:01,100 --> 00:55:03,700
who got, you know, high on their
supply that because they wrote 

1143
00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:07,000
so many great pieces about 
their, you know, social 

1144
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,700
infrastructure team or or 
whatever whatever you call it. 

1145
00:55:09,900 --> 00:55:11,900
You know, the problems that 
they've had in in terms of 

1146
00:55:11,900 --> 00:55:15,500
moderating contents or name any 
Facebook, scan of the last five 

1147
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:16,700
years. 
That that was really going to 

1148
00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:18,800
hurt its business. 
And it's like, you know, there 

1149
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,500
was also a So, a long period of 
time that as a business 

1150
00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:22,900
reporter. 
You also could have explained. 

1151
00:55:22,900 --> 00:55:25,100
Look, these guys are running up 
against a wall in terms of user 

1152
00:55:25,100 --> 00:55:27,600
growth that you know, Apple's 
privacy changes are going to 

1153
00:55:27,607 --> 00:55:30,500
hurt them and you have done this
I'm not blaming you specifically

1154
00:55:30,500 --> 00:55:33,200
but I think a mistake the tech 
reporters have made is as 

1155
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,500
they've seen the influence that 
technology has had Beyond just 

1156
00:55:36,500 --> 00:55:38,700
the industry itself. 
They've conflated that with the 

1157
00:55:38,700 --> 00:55:42,100
business and you, you mislead 
people into thinking that that 

1158
00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:46,300
is going to change a, that core 
aspect of their of their 

1159
00:55:46,300 --> 00:55:48,100
business. 
And again, you just do a 

1160
00:55:48,107 --> 00:55:49,900
disservice to readers. 
You can Both. 

1161
00:55:49,900 --> 00:55:52,500
But like, explain to people that
there's a huge difference 

1162
00:55:52,500 --> 00:55:54,900
between these types of stories 
while it's also you just ignore 

1163
00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:57,800
the business like, alot of 
Facebook covers, just ignores 

1164
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,800
the advertising business. 
Like, I like, how do they make 

1165
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:02,000
money? 
Like, what is their actual 

1166
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:03,900
vulnerability in their weakness?
Exactly. 

1167
00:56:03,900 --> 00:56:08,200
Like it's people are. 
So this is, I think Facebook is 

1168
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,300
a perfect example is like house 
in Industry. 

1169
00:56:10,300 --> 00:56:14,100
We kind of like can play to our 
peers more than we can to what I

1170
00:56:14,100 --> 00:56:16,600
think an audience wants. 
And I honestly think a lot of 

1171
00:56:16,607 --> 00:56:19,100
The Joe Rogan coverage has gone 
into this realm as well. 

1172
00:56:19,100 --> 00:56:22,000
Wear it Like we love to like, 
sit here and be like, are there 

1173
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,000
a publisher or are they a 
platform? 

1174
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,200
Like, oh my gosh, and I wasn't 
speaking about this incessant 

1175
00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:30,600
like and Eric, like, I think 
that's an important debate for 

1176
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,700
us to have and like, the media. 
My job licker insiders. 

1177
00:56:33,700 --> 00:56:34,900
So I don't even have. 
Yeah, 10. 

1178
00:56:34,900 --> 00:56:37,900
And like, I don't even for tends
to speak for this podcast is 

1179
00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:39,500
where that conversation should 
be happening. 

1180
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:43,000
But like, most people do not 
fucking care. 

1181
00:56:43,300 --> 00:56:46,900
And like that is the reality 
most people do not actually 

1182
00:56:46,900 --> 00:56:50,700
think they're like a lot of the 
That we just assume that 

1183
00:56:50,700 --> 00:56:53,000
everyone feels about Facebook 
like this. 

1184
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:55,300
It's just like Facebook is seen 
very differently in other parts 

1185
00:56:55,300 --> 00:56:59,000
of the world and so, like you 
can't ignore that and I don't 

1186
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,300
know. 
Anything like included, I mean, 

1187
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:05,400
and politicians and like, 
potentially deservedly and 

1188
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:07,300
tarnishing Facebook's 
reputation. 

1189
00:57:07,300 --> 00:57:09,800
So I mean they have moved it and
I do want to serve it. 

1190
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,100
I mean there is an argument that
like if Mark Zuckerberg has done

1191
00:57:13,100 --> 00:57:16,100
something Beyond like 
forgiveness or is not the person

1192
00:57:16,100 --> 00:57:19,500
to run the company, or is 
causing started this global I'm 

1193
00:57:19,500 --> 00:57:21,900
which I think some people 
believe and there's like a 

1194
00:57:21,908 --> 00:57:25,400
credible argument for I don't 
think it's like reasonable to 

1195
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,800
just like stop hitting that drum
because it's like exhausting to 

1196
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,300
be - I don't know. 
That's really a challenge 

1197
00:57:31,500 --> 00:57:33,800
journaling about, I mean, no, I 
agree. 

1198
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,400
I agree with you. 
I don't think that you should 

1199
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,700
stop. 
I think it's like, I think a lot

1200
00:57:37,700 --> 00:57:39,700
of the coverage is ignored 
everything else or not, taking 

1201
00:57:39,700 --> 00:57:42,000
it seriously because it's how, 
he only thinks it's sort of 

1202
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,200
like, okay, you need to 
represent this piece of it with 

1203
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,300
this part of. 
Yeah, I mean, it's hard to be 

1204
00:57:46,300 --> 00:57:47,900
real. 
I mean, like, we know it gets 

1205
00:57:47,900 --> 00:57:50,700
Awards consideration, we know 
What like gets are pat on the 

1206
00:57:50,700 --> 00:57:52,600
back from our editor and our 
colleagues. 

1207
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:56,700
And it's the it's not the like, 
it's not the stuff that isn't 

1208
00:57:56,700 --> 00:58:00,600
related to disinformation and 
fake news and these topics that 

1209
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,600
we love to just act like have 
Universal definitions, but don't

1210
00:58:03,900 --> 00:58:06,400
and yeah. 
So no. 

1211
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:09,100
I mean there's a lot of I sound.
I think I sound like an 

1212
00:58:09,100 --> 00:58:10,400
apologist for Facebook right 
now. 

1213
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,400
But I think I'm more. 
I just want I want like more 

1214
00:58:13,900 --> 00:58:17,800
balanced coverage in general. 
I think I try to do that and I 

1215
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,300
get slammed like I got slammed 
for The zuc interview as it 

1216
00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:23,100
being soft and it being like, 
why don't you ask him about how 

1217
00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:26,300
good and the one who is about, 
like the metaverse, the Rebrand.

1218
00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:28,200
Yeah. 
And like, what the fuck is he 

1219
00:58:28,207 --> 00:58:30,400
going to say? 
Like, he really literally, like 

1220
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,700
he just said it on an earnings 
call, he just said that it 

1221
00:58:32,700 --> 00:58:36,200
doesn't make sense her claims, 
like he was very blunt like way 

1222
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:39,600
more blunt than like, Tim Cook 
has ever been about anything and

1223
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,600
like, what is he going to tell 
me in the 30 minutes I have with

1224
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:47,200
him to talk about like, a 
massive, like Rebrand of one of 

1225
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:49,100
the largest companies in the 
world, like I'm going to go back

1226
00:58:49,100 --> 00:58:52,700
through One still like Instagram
for kids like and like when he's

1227
00:58:52,700 --> 00:58:55,200
already talked about it and he's
a CEO he's not going to say 

1228
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,400
anything new and I was worried 
Ben. 

1229
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:01,400
Thompson is talked about this 
challenge, some on his podcast 

1230
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,900
ruined dinner and I think I mean
it is hard. 

1231
00:59:03,900 --> 00:59:06,900
When you have these CEOs you 
want to, you have to have a 

1232
00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:09,200
productive discourse. 
I mean part of it is just 

1233
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:12,600
obviously I prefer a world where
you could, it's more like a 

1234
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:14,800
deposition. 
You have like three hours 

1235
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,000
really? 
Like, that would be a just world

1236
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,200
where you're really, you know, 
it's not performative in. 

1237
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,200
Trying to really go through the 
stuff but given the reality that

1238
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:25,400
if it's like, yeah, especially 
30 minutes, it is sort of like a

1239
00:59:25,408 --> 00:59:29,300
performance and they're sort of 
kind of it terms because, you 

1240
00:59:29,300 --> 00:59:31,700
know, it's so short. 
Like, these interviews are all 

1241
00:59:31,700 --> 00:59:33,500
performances. 
Well, I also just have a 

1242
00:59:33,500 --> 00:59:35,700
fundamental, I have a 
fundamental disagreement. 

1243
00:59:35,700 --> 00:59:37,700
We talked about this in an 
earlier episode and Katie and I 

1244
00:59:37,707 --> 00:59:40,400
disagreed on this. 
I just don't there's no magic. 

1245
00:59:40,500 --> 00:59:43,200
You know, Elixir that our 
reporter has or like there may 

1246
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,200
be able to wave a wand that 
because they asked the right 

1247
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,000
question at the right time the 
Earth's, you know, shifted a 

1248
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,600
couple degrees off of its access
Like we're all there to ask the 

1249
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:53,600
right questions and hopefully 
get an answer from it. 

1250
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,600
But the true impact comes from 
the stories that investigate 

1251
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,700
things of the co, you know, 
isn't going to talk about. 

1252
00:59:59,700 --> 01:00:03,100
And so, you know, I do think we 
have an obligation and you know,

1253
01:00:03,700 --> 01:00:06,300
you can argue one way or the 
other whether you wish you had 

1254
01:00:06,300 --> 01:00:09,400
asked to do something to suck 
that you didn't you know, to ask

1255
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:11,900
a hard question. 
But fundamentally you know the 

1256
01:00:11,900 --> 01:00:14,400
real reporting that matters 
isn't going to come through that

1257
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,900
interview. 
It's performative. 

1258
01:00:16,900 --> 01:00:20,600
And so I feel for ni I haven't 
Been in a situation like you 

1259
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:24,200
have where, you know, I'm 
speaking to a high-level CEO in 

1260
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,900
an interview that's going to be 
scrutinized in that way, but I 

1261
01:00:27,900 --> 01:00:31,100
don't, I just don't blame the 
reporter in that particular case

1262
01:00:31,100 --> 01:00:32,400
here. 
I think you can blame them if 

1263
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,600
like the totality their work of,
you know, elides on huge 

1264
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:39,600
problems and you know, 
purposefully chooses not to 

1265
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,800
cover them because they think 
it'll benefit their career long 

1266
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:44,400
term or something weird like 
that. 

1267
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:48,200
But I just don't think that. 
Yeah, the the core of reporting 

1268
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:50,400
comes through the few times. 
You get to interview the person 

1269
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:52,400
in power. 
And I just, I try to remind 

1270
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:54,000
myself. 
There are things that people 

1271
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,100
care about that. 
We don't always obsessed with in

1272
01:00:56,100 --> 01:00:58,800
the media. 
Like there's like that matter at

1273
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,400
a company that scale like asking
him, are you going to be Co in 

1274
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:04,600
five years like, stuff like 
that, that I did ask him like is

1275
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:08,800
a little off the like it's not 
Facebook files but like it 

1276
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,100
matters to be like these kind of
question like if I get a chance 

1277
01:01:11,100 --> 01:01:14,300
to ask Zuckerberg, some things I
want to also throw things in 

1278
01:01:14,300 --> 01:01:18,200
that like not just the crowd 
that loves to eat up the like 

1279
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:19,200
Facebook is bad. 
No. 

1280
01:01:19,300 --> 01:01:22,100
Matter what stories will be 
interested in because I'm trying

1281
01:01:22,100 --> 01:01:24,000
to like, reach a lot of people, 
right? 

1282
01:01:24,300 --> 01:01:26,300
I mean, I've been on both sides 
of this argument. 

1283
01:01:26,300 --> 01:01:29,500
I mean, there is a degree to 
which if you're a reporter 

1284
01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:34,000
trying to hammer a narrative, 
like, if you're really trying to

1285
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,200
focus attention on your 
reporting and you feel like it, 

1286
01:01:37,300 --> 01:01:40,600
it's reporting that if people 
paid attention to would have 

1287
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,100
impact. 
But it's hard to keep the 

1288
01:01:42,100 --> 01:01:45,600
attention on there and the 
companies just doing everything 

1289
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:49,000
they can to avoid it. 
Then you want to sort of have 

1290
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:54,000
this Of tight-knit network of 
reporters that can sort of force

1291
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,800
the conversation that you think 
is societally important. 

1292
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:00,000
And then it can be annoying when
the company can try to find 

1293
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,900
Pockets to scape that. 
But of course, that sort of 

1294
01:02:02,900 --> 01:02:05,900
argument that I make is what the
vast majority of the public and 

1295
01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:09,500
companies hate about reporters. 
The idea that there could be 

1296
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:13,600
sort of control of the message 
to such a degree that you force.

1297
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:17,300
Man, if you want to, man, if you
want to talk about control the 

1298
01:02:17,300 --> 01:02:21,500
message, that that is Apple. 
All like meta is actually. 

1299
01:02:22,500 --> 01:02:25,400
It is one of the easiest 
companies to talk to and one of 

1300
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:29,200
the most forthright I found and 
like Zuck actually actually 

1301
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:30,800
subject. 
I thought the whole debate about

1302
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,700
like Zuck never does interviews 
with like, you know. 

1303
01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:37,400
So and so he's not open and like
available, he does way more 

1304
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:38,700
interviews with journalists in 
Tim Cook. 

1305
01:02:38,700 --> 01:02:41,000
Tim Cook, six down. 
He sits down with like a fucking

1306
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,100
YouTuber. 
That's like he's pressed for the

1307
01:02:43,100 --> 01:02:45,100
year old still like be. 
Like I was just, you know, I 

1308
01:02:45,100 --> 01:02:47,400
totally different totally 
different standard. 

1309
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,200
And they're, they're arguably 
way more influential. 

1310
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,600
Unlike important. 
And so, yeah, no, I agree. 

1311
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:55,600
It's like the standard thing is 
like, very interesting. 

1312
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,900
It's like, remember when Jack 
Dorsey was sitting down with 

1313
01:02:57,900 --> 01:03:01,100
like, every third person that 
asked that there was like a 

1314
01:03:01,100 --> 01:03:03,400
three or four month period, we 
have is doing like he would he 

1315
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,900
would have appeared on like the 
200th most important podcast. 

1316
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:09,400
Yeah. 
I've never interviewed Jack have

1317
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:12,000
you guys know? 
But he was sort of I had cost 

1318
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,900
the firm that I accosted him at 
Sun Valley once a it was a 

1319
01:03:14,908 --> 01:03:17,400
little earlier, right? 
I mean, it was a little I was 

1320
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,900
still new wish I forget. 
What years? 

1321
01:03:20,100 --> 01:03:21,800
I mean. 
Aaron's demos was like big on 

1322
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:23,800
getting Jack. 
Super out there. 

1323
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:25,200
I think for a period. 
Yeah. 

1324
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:26,100
Jack's. 
A fun. 

1325
01:03:26,100 --> 01:03:27,700
One day interview. 
I feel like right now he'd be 

1326
01:03:27,700 --> 01:03:29,700
just like wild. 
Like I know. 

1327
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:31,500
No, no Jack. 
Come on. 

1328
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:33,600
Yeah. 
Yeah you want to show? 

1329
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:37,500
I mean the whole like everyone's
is ID number and reason for 

1330
01:03:37,500 --> 01:03:40,700
which you start Chris Dixon was 
going after Bobby, good lat. 

1331
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:43,500
Like last night, I'm just like 
egregious, anyway. 

1332
01:03:43,700 --> 01:03:46,800
Not the biggest player in 
Silicon Valley is has Bitcoin 

1333
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,400
investor, but it just I mean 
I've On complain that these 

1334
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:53,500
people aren't sort of 
confrontational enough and like,

1335
01:03:53,500 --> 01:03:55,000
like to keep all their fights 
and private. 

1336
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:58,300
So I guess I happy to see 
anyway. 

1337
01:03:58,300 --> 01:04:00,600
Yeah, there's all starting to 
fight with each other on 

1338
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,700
Twitter, which side, it's on 
Twitter, something real, like if

1339
01:04:03,700 --> 01:04:06,900
you take it to another venue and
I'll give it a little bit more 

1340
01:04:06,900 --> 01:04:09,400
time of day for right now, it 
just seems like entertainments 

1341
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:11,200
rights Patty. 
They're not like writing like 

1342
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:15,000
essays or like yeah and they're 
certainly not, I don't know. 

1343
01:04:15,500 --> 01:04:18,300
Do you think if like we weren't 
on Twitter all day like coverage

1344
01:04:18,300 --> 01:04:19,900
of these companies would be way.
A different. 

1345
01:04:20,500 --> 01:04:24,200
It's so you be so different. 
Yeah, it's so like it's such an 

1346
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:27,700
echo chamber and it's just I for
young reporters to like coming 

1347
01:04:27,700 --> 01:04:29,200
in till I covering these 
companies. 

1348
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,100
They're looking at like more 
established people for cues of 

1349
01:04:32,100 --> 01:04:34,900
what to cover. 
I mean I did this and like it 

1350
01:04:34,900 --> 01:04:37,300
just has this like feedback 
Thing That Never Ends, right? 

1351
01:04:37,300 --> 01:04:41,400
I know we all like, need the 
like Steven Levy or like, or 

1352
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,300
like this day. 
Max Max chaff kannur Brad. 

1353
01:04:44,300 --> 01:04:47,700
So, I mean, just any of these? 
Where they like are almost like 

1354
01:04:47,700 --> 01:04:49,200
disconnected from the beat 
reporter. 

1355
01:04:49,300 --> 01:04:52,000
In the be reporters, like myself
would go all like pissed off 

1356
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,300
that they're not like asking the
questions that were obsessed 

1357
01:04:55,300 --> 01:04:58,600
with of the moment, but they 
like, do the long interview, I 

1358
01:04:58,607 --> 01:05:02,000
mean, Matt Matt Honan would do 
these with Google sometimes we I

1359
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:05,100
feel like those types of 
stories, I think it's partially.

1360
01:05:05,100 --> 01:05:08,200
The companies haven't been 
cooperating because the media 

1361
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,900
has been so negative. 
I don't know where of those 

1362
01:05:10,900 --> 01:05:13,700
stories. 
Gone are like it wasn't there. 

1363
01:05:13,700 --> 01:05:15,300
They've mostly. 
Yeah, disappeared. 

1364
01:05:15,300 --> 01:05:18,600
I mean Levy had is, you know, 
had some access to Facebook for 

1365
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:21,300
a while. 
And that book and marks done 

1366
01:05:21,300 --> 01:05:24,800
some interviews wired wire, did 
a fairly long Zuck you know 

1367
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:28,400
inside his world during kind of 
the Cambridge analytic. 

1368
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:30,400
It's the one where he's beat up 
on the cover. 

1369
01:05:30,500 --> 01:05:32,100
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1370
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:34,800
And read the one that had all 
the comms department but that 

1371
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,500
was like reporter e. 
That was very like interested in

1372
01:05:39,100 --> 01:05:43,200
the things we care about that 
was that was a very specific 

1373
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:48,700
Source space. 
Yes, and no people know who 

1374
01:05:48,700 --> 01:05:49,700
talked in that. 
Worried. 

1375
01:05:50,300 --> 01:05:52,900
But that was also not mark on 
the record, right? 

1376
01:05:52,900 --> 01:05:57,100
Like you know, like Isaac's got 
his Facebook book coming out and

1377
01:05:57,100 --> 01:06:01,000
he's working on, maybe he'll get
some access, I don't know like I

1378
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,000
think Mark is down to like talk 
to people but it's like I think 

1379
01:06:04,100 --> 01:06:07,700
a lot of the vibe is that a lot 
of the reporters who cover meta 

1380
01:06:07,700 --> 01:06:11,000
or like just like by default. 
Confrontational. 

1381
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:13,700
Not even like I think it's a 
difference between like being 

1382
01:06:13,700 --> 01:06:16,900
quizzical and like a not 
assuming like something is 

1383
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,700
correct or Has the right 
intentions and being like 

1384
01:06:20,700 --> 01:06:23,400
downright confrontational and 
there's honestly some of that 

1385
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:26,900
vibe in like people sweets. 
Are you, are you you consider 

1386
01:06:26,900 --> 01:06:29,400
yourself a view from nowhere 
reporter? 

1387
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:32,300
I don't know. 
I definitely have opinions, but 

1388
01:06:32,300 --> 01:06:36,100
I actually intentionally try to 
not fully form opinions so like 

1389
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:40,100
I like I'm more motivated by 
Scoops and like uncovering 

1390
01:06:40,100 --> 01:06:45,200
things and not necessarily like 
connecting all the dots and so I

1391
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:47,200
think I like to hide behind the 
reporting a little bit. 

1392
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,100
Like I actually don't want you 
to know. 

1393
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:53,900
What I've you of meta is like a 
net good or net bad because I 

1394
01:06:53,908 --> 01:06:55,800
honestly don't know. 
And I think if you say, you know

1395
01:06:56,100 --> 01:06:59,500
and you're an outsider, you're 
lying because like you like you 

1396
01:06:59,500 --> 01:07:01,900
there's no way of knowing like 
at scale like we don't have the 

1397
01:07:01,900 --> 01:07:05,800
data so it's like I don't know. 
Yeah I try to like hide behind 

1398
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:07,100
it. 
I think it works for like 

1399
01:07:07,100 --> 01:07:10,500
sourcing as well because you 
know, like people at these 

1400
01:07:10,500 --> 01:07:13,700
companies if they feel like 
you're at least like are willing

1401
01:07:13,700 --> 01:07:16,800
to hear them out and not like 
assume they're evil, then you 

1402
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:19,100
know, they'll talk to you. 
So I think it's a more of a 

1403
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:21,500
Long-term view honestly well, 
certain kind of sourcing, right?

1404
01:07:21,500 --> 01:07:23,800
I mean I think one of the 
advantages that reporters have 

1405
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,400
when they're so outspoken about 
their personal beliefs is that 

1406
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:28,900
you can cultivate a certain 
perspective. 

1407
01:07:28,900 --> 01:07:30,500
Yeah. 
You cultivate one side. 

1408
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,700
Yeah yeah yeah yeah. 
Which is not to name names but 

1409
01:07:33,700 --> 01:07:36,900
like you can definitely you 
know, he's turned effective. 

1410
01:07:37,300 --> 01:07:40,500
Yeah, if you're out there just 
like constantly tweeting about 

1411
01:07:40,500 --> 01:07:43,500
how absurd something that 
Facebook has done is. 

1412
01:07:43,900 --> 01:07:46,900
Well, it's like Ryan Mac going 
to war with like Tesla or 

1413
01:07:46,900 --> 01:07:51,200
whatever on your face. 
It's it's intentional and I 

1414
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:55,200
think it's a great reporter and 
he is great, just like a good 

1415
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,500
strategy. 
If you know your side, they know

1416
01:07:58,500 --> 01:08:00,300
your side and then they go to 
you. 

1417
01:08:00,300 --> 01:08:02,800
I mean time have their strategy,
I do not want to fight with him,

1418
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:04,600
will tweet it. 
Well, it's good to know the show

1419
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:07,000
to you mean, I know it's good to
I, this is real shit that we're 

1420
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:08,800
talking about. 
Like, yeah, I think it's good to

1421
01:08:08,808 --> 01:08:11,500
have different strategies and I 
may be a little old school. 

1422
01:08:11,500 --> 01:08:13,900
I don't know like, or to a lot 
of people nowadays. 

1423
01:08:13,900 --> 01:08:17,399
I may just be soft but like, I 
think there's value and not 

1424
01:08:17,399 --> 01:08:19,399
everyone taking the same 
approach and I think There's 

1425
01:08:19,399 --> 01:08:21,700
value in Ryan's approach and I 
think there's value in mind and 

1426
01:08:21,700 --> 01:08:24,600
like, I'm not saying there's are
bad, I'm just saying, like, we 

1427
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,100
need a mix. 
We don't need to all be doing 

1428
01:08:26,100 --> 01:08:29,100
the exact same fucking thing 
because like some people have 

1429
01:08:29,100 --> 01:08:31,899
big newspapers, cover something 
a certain way like write a mix 

1430
01:08:31,899 --> 01:08:35,100
of like approaches to reporting.
Now, we're back to, we spend too

1431
01:08:35,108 --> 01:08:38,000
much time on Twitter. 
I, by the way, believe I've 

1432
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:39,600
been, I've been limiting my 
Twitter, a little bit. 

1433
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,100
The last couple of weeks, I 
swear to God sources. 

1434
01:08:42,100 --> 01:08:44,000
It's unrelated. 
I think there's something Cosmic

1435
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:46,300
that happens when you lean back 
on, like, time spent on Twitter 

1436
01:08:46,300 --> 01:08:50,200
and like sources will call me 
back They just know they're like

1437
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:52,100
this guy isn't tweeting. 
Yeah, I think it's like if 

1438
01:08:52,100 --> 01:08:55,000
anything was like, some sort of 
indication from a higher power 

1439
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:56,600
that I shouldn't spend as much 
time on here. 

1440
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,000
I literally have better days 
reporting in ways that have 

1441
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:01,899
nothing to do with Twitter. 
When I spend less time on their 

1442
01:09:02,100 --> 01:09:05,300
Robin Hood, Twitter puts Okay 
order. 

1443
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:06,399
Yeah. 
No. 

1444
01:09:06,399 --> 01:09:08,700
It's and that is interesting 
that like that's bigger expiry 

1445
01:09:08,700 --> 01:09:11,399
my tweeting effects Twitter 
stock then they have bigger 

1446
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:12,800
problems. 
Yeah. 

1447
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:14,300
Anyway Alex. 
This was great. 

1448
01:09:14,500 --> 01:09:16,500
Thank you so much for joining. 
Yeah. 

1449
01:09:17,100 --> 01:09:18,899
Well, we'll do this again. 
Yeah. 

1450
01:09:18,899 --> 01:09:22,700
This Thanks for having me, guys.
Thank you, goodbye. 

1451
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:35,000
Goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1452
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,300
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1453
01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:22,700
Thanks for having me, guys. 
Thank you, goodbye. 

1454
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:35,000
Goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1455
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,300
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye.