Welcome, Silicon Valley, hello again everybody Welcome to Dead
cat Tom here with Eric, we've got Alex Heath here from The
Verge. Alex is the social media
reporting, Savant lunar. Can't we save under Kent?
You're still young enough to be Thundercats.
Sure, sure. Let's go with that.
Okay, but former colleague of mine at the information, we used
to be shit. Kickers together on the social
media beat you scoop that Facebook was going to change its
name. We talked about that on this
podcast, so yeah, and I enjoyed that conversation.
We hadn't talked to you about Heath in a while.
So we're glad to we're glad to bring you want it to correct
that but but I do as excited as I am to have Alex on, we have to
temper some of that, enthusiasm at the fact that we are here
today to memorialize something that we all lost last week.
Something that was part of all of our Lives Mehta Nay Facebook
died, last week. Wow.
All right P. Yeah, the cause of death, Tim
Cook. And, you know what just turned
18, just turn legal and Dad. Wow.
I didn't even think about that.
Not even a full life as much as you can get these days.
It's tragic, honestly, we're a little bit.
Yeah. The company only brought in
thirty three billion dollars in Revenue last quarter which is
Frankie pathetic. That's super.
Yeah, that's three. Yeah so but But let's let's
acknowledge the fact that it's talk to drop 20 something
percent over the last Coast like 25%, last five twenty, five
percent. So setting a record that they
previously set themselves in 2018, right?
Yeah, value itself. What 300 billion of market cap?
Or I mean, I think it was closer to 20 ish, but yeah, it was, it
was the record from their drop in 2018, right, right.
So beating their own record. So what, what to make of this
Alex? I mean, it's, there's a lot to
this. To digest here.
And, you know, the impact that it had that sort of blast
radius, both affected and didn't affect a lot of its competitors.
But what is like your high-level takeaways to why things seem so
extreme report? Like what was the most troubling
thing to investors? That caused them to panic in the
way they did? I mean there were a few things I
think probably the thing that sent the market down the most
was the forecast being lower than expected because the
markets always Ways are about the future, not the past, but
it's the Apple stuff you talked about, Tim Cook just laying down
absolute vengeance upon the and the ad world.
Did they give a specific number on how much the Apple change
affected them? They said they were going to
lose 10 billion this year is the rough estimate from the Apple
change. And then they also said they
were going to spend 10 billion on Meadow, right?
That's been confused, they have other guests and more than that,
they spent that last year, but it's going to be Right.
So they spent more in Q4 on metaverse than all arv.
Our startups raise combined last year, so yeah, it's kind of like
a bet the farm thing. So on one side investors, see
this bet the farm increasing Rd spend that a massive loss that
doesn't look like it's going to reverse course anytime soon and
then they see an ad business that is under threat from Apple
regulators and then they see a slowing user base.
This was the first time that the Blue app reported sequential
Global da you decline in its history.
So the the unending gross narrative finally came to a halt
and we know that a lot of that. It's so the reporting on this is
actually been a little incorrect.
A lot of it was like and I haven't looked at this in mind
so I'm partly to blame as like when you say reporter, you mean
like the media? Not like analyst.
I mean us the media. Yes.
Okay name names, Alex, what did we get wrong Force?
Just well. So This is I also I think got
the tone of this wrong in my, in my earnings coverage.
But the so if you actually pay attention to what the CFO of
meta said, the reason they lost users was because of higher than
expected data prices in India. But there's a narrative that,
you know, it's about losing the teens, right?
The teens are on Fortnight there on Roblox, their own Tick-Tock
Tick-Tock is the reason for all this.
When in reality they told investors it had.
Some, it was some very out there like pricing thing in India so
like it just shows how you can see the da use breakdown
literally looking at ya right now so they'll also US and
Canada went right? I know, 196 million to 195.
I mean I can just imagine being at the company you know they
miss their da, you buy 1 million, right?
So they might there must be some engineer that was like
frantically trying to get us to not be owned.
There's one engineer, many, many Engineers, like just hacking.
Whatever they can to try to. Yeah, enough push alerts.
To keep it right lat. Well, there's a so it's easier
to fake Mau. So that's very easy to do with
some push alerts and like they have a whole playbook for this.
Like at the end of every quarter, if they feel like
they're not going to meet their targets, it's like all hands on
deck. Let's get those in may use up,
tau is a lot harder to fake, right?
Because that's that's like consistent engagement and that's
also like the that's the core health of the Is Tau.
And so basically, they couldn't eke out an extra million in
India because of data plan pricing.
And so therefore, this 1 million loss in North America led to a
global decline for the first time, which is like a number
that isn't that big of a deal but to investors it's like this
company is never not grown. So that's that's a problem,
right? Well now we have Robin Hood's
decreasing, we've got Facebook, all these, alleged growth,
stocks are showing showing weakness, well, the other apps
are still growing in the, in the meta.
Family right on mean really know like the the Mau for Instagram
and WhatsApp was up like by I think around 100 million which
is a lot but like on their scale, not what they're used to
but the da, you barely moved. I think like, Instagram and
WhatsApp or kind of also at a stasis.
Right. Right.
So like collectively it's just hard to for analysts or
investors to keep with the same story that they have been which
is that you know even if the growth of the Blue app is going
to be you know on Decline or flat you can you can look to
these other apps and say like well you know, thank God we
still have Instagram or thank God.
We still have what you know what's that?
Like that's just that train is just slowing down.
They just don't have that anymore.
And I mean, look, none of this is all that surprising.
I mean like I remember writing about this like three years ago
at the information that this that this day was coming.
So I mean, obviously you can only do so you called it.
You're saying you had a you had a low wish.
I could say that wasn't brought along.
Put you had a long put on this You just made a lot of money if
I made it. I made a huge amount of money
and I know exactly why it was orders are always - sometimes
eventually something bad right happen and you can be
Vindicated, right? We every reporter has a short
position. The whole video explanation.
Honestly has been the most mystifying to me, everybody's
trying to reinterpret it. So as I Kerber, gives this
speech right to employees saying they're going to focus on video
is Right, am I getting that right?
Yeah, they said that on their own.
Is culture? Yeah.
Okay. So what's what's the deal?
Is it just like talk or? Yeah I mean like video is more
engaging. I think it's also a generational
thing. Like I think young people
instead of like taking a photo of something or like a selfie
it's almost like a quick video pan of their face.
Like I just noticed this and my feeds and like younger people
don't really take photos as much and yeah Tick Tock is a format
is now. Ubiquitous it's like stories.
It's the new stories and you know, even snap.
I'm Only deleting an undulating, really talk.
Oh, so they need a femoral Tick-Tock.
See, they're just going to merge the two formats.
No, I mean I delete the app uses.
Yeah. It's about a say, it's more
serious. Yeah.
Oh, it's a little cumbersome system.
Well, that's because you don't want Chinese spyware, right?
Well, the other thing about Chinese spy, where they ask for
my contacts, like every other day.
And I'm causes every answer. It should be against apples
rules. Like so if I accidentally you
don't like it and say, yeah, but it just like pops up in
unexpected. At times and there's no like
double confirmation just like a Miss click away from handing the
Chinese government essentially. So you want, you want to argue
sure before you send it to the Chinese government.
I just think if you asked somebody something three times
about highly sensitive information and you say no apple
should Eric, are you really just saying your address book is
super lucrative? I feel like that's the that's
what - I just like the fact. You think the Chinese don't
already have it? I know.
Well, Day where the Wall Street Journal, you know, said that it
got hacked, and it seems like it's probably the Chinese
government. There is a degree to, which
like, we're all just hacked all the time.
Some of us are just finding out about it, but I would at least
like, I don't know. I yeah, I think apple is a good
Steward of my iPhone and this is just a request.
I thought I want to get to the to the push alert things in a
second when we talk about snap because I have a lot of thoughts
about that. But but yeah, I mean, do you
reels, right? That's the tick.
Tock Etre you know, push through Instagram, and they're trying to
spin a pretty positive story about that which in the past you
know reading yours and Other Stories.
It sounds like reels was kind of a fiasco but maybe they've
turned it around a bit like the it's actually getting some
Traction in the way they need it to.
So Facebook's Playbook any time. There's a new competitor is like
we copy the format and we don't monetize it because we don't
want people to be turned off by ads to start.
We want them hooked on the experience and we fine-tuned and
kind of like needle the experiment it.
Variants with all the engagement numbers.
We have to the degree that no other competitor does to make it
a little bit better. And when we like also pay
creators to try to get a flywheel going, they did this
with stories, they're doing it again with reels but it's early
and they're not monetizing real. So like all the attention is
Shifting to Reels but they're not putting at.
Is this happened with stories. It was the same thing.
It was like, I think even around the 2018 drop was like a story
Narrative of like stories were under monetized and they just
like eventually shoved ads in that thing.
So like, I'm not this kind of just reminds me of 20:18 like
they have these like, kind of huge drops when they like have a
rough. There had a rough juncture, I
guess as a company. You're optimistic though.
I mean, when I go to the Instagram version of tick-tock
is that also called reels. What's that one called?
That's, that's reels that do that Israel's?
That's where it's not me. It's on, it's not good.
It's not, it's terrible. It's embarrassing.
It's like knockoff. It literally has like a game.
I got a knockoff version. Yeah.
It's we make. So the algorithm Chinese things,
unlike, you know, Somali Bob. But sore, but like the reels is
like the version of that of tick-tock we're like Tic Tacs.
Giving me like the real shit and reels the real.
Yeah, exactly getting that real. Yeah, no, it's reels is not
great. They don't have good algorithms,
relative to tick. Tock, they haven't.
So the reason is like Facebook was, was they design like
Facebook came up in the era of like algorithms designed based
off of like the user telling it what it once and tick-tock.
Invented A New Concept of like the algorithm telling you what
it thinks you want. And without like you having to
input like when you open up and talk, you don't need to like
follow things. You don't need to like, a bunch
of things. Follow a bunch of pages.
That's how Facebook built profiles of us back in the day.
And that's how their algorithms are trained.
So they're having to like kind of unlearn.
The way they train a feed and it's hard to do in a company
that size where the people who built the stuff from 10 years
ago or so in charge. And so, and they can't buy, you
know, companies really to help them with this stuff.
So it's going to be a problem for them.
And that's Thing they called out was like, it's almost I think
they're worried that the narrative has gotten.
So ahead on the metaverse stuff and the spend that they've
highlighted as gotten, I mean, I have one by one person to blame
for that. I mean, no, no.
I know I it's their fault, totally, but if you look hasten
to earnings like they highlight, we actually expect spend be
higher in the family of apps segment in terms of like our
capex then then the rest of the company.
So they're actually trying to like Point people back like hey
we know there's a problem in the core business.
We're actually going to spend more than we all call it
Facebook, again, I feel like the media knows resisted calling it
meta. Like it's just like I really
learned. I'm so fascinated by this
Viewpoint. Like so if ya like it's almost
like you know, a company says, they have these earnings but we
should resist it. We should say they actually I
like what do you mean? No.
They like this is like except reinforcing make up numbers.
I'm just saying as long as your core product is still one thing.
It's just like I mean everybody. Every consumer still knows.
Alphabet is Google like but that is just a real about the
alphabet Rebrand was about like accounting.
It wasn't about In Like Larry and Sergey also being able to
like disappear into the sunset. It wasn't, it wasn't like an
actual pivot for the company. I mean it's definitely a brand
thing like I'm not I totally get that but like Facebook is
actually the least important asset even in the family of apps
in terms of like their strategic growth like instead they should
be called Instagram if you want to call it based on what it is
and the whole company should be called in Degree Facebook and
blue app. Still makes the most generous,
it makes the new. Well actually I've seen they
don't break that out. But there's been some reporting
that suggests that they're already like approaching parity
and I wouldn't be surprised if Instagram makes more in the near
term. So yeah if you want to call it
by what it is, we should call it the Instagram company.
Do you think there's been this is anecdotal but I feel like I
post this on Instagram just right now just because even
though I'm living life and doing things in the pandemics, not it
Just like I'm not out as much as pre-pandemic.
So it's just like there isn't the same lifestyle to post and
that yeah a true end of the pandemic would be helpful for
Instagram on the posting side. Less on the consumption side.
I don't know dude that's that's an interesting point because
Evan Spiegel on snaps our earnings said that they've
noticed that stories posting has stayed down throughout the whole
pandemic and they expected it to rebound by now with like a lot
of lockdowns easing up especially for young people
young people People are generally, you know, out more
like snaps user base. So, yeah, that is an interesting
Behavior. I think people are really
embracing The Tick-Tock format, and kind of like stories aren't
as cool anymore and that's the story of social media is like
there's a format that's cool for a while.
Until there's I love covering social media because it's so
generational like it changes based on kind of the behaviors
and like desires of like the Next Generation.
It's a snap was like gen Z or whatever.
And now there's another generation.
What is the next Generation called?
I've gets Jenna. I think I think it's a blizzard
and Z. Yeah, it's stupid.
It's actually kind of terrifying.
If you think about the implications of starting again,
at Alpha, there are the alpha generation that my kid is an
alpha alpha. So why is it that snap seems to
have navigated this much better? I mean, you know, they I know
that they have adopted a tick tock like, you know, section of
the app that, you know, they basically have paid people to be
there. Yeah.
But you know, why is that not been as catastrophic for them as
it seems to What for favorite answer that but the drug set up.
Also the drama on Snap because I think part of what's fun about
this story is just like just as Facebook was tanking, snap was
going wild in the aftermarket. So like why swings are like part
of what's so crazy about this? These are main stocks now.
I mean they're like baby, basically like is that a coins
or meme? Stocktake.
I mean, literally on the last episode, I was like, oh,
everything's index index funds are going to kill everything.
And I literally the next week we Find out that actually like a
Fang stock. Facebook can swing down 25%, in
five days. It's like totally the sanctions
that notion. No, the thing stocks, do because
they're indexed, but snaps Wings, crazily, because it's too
small. Like it, it went up, 60,
something percent or fifty to sixty percent and in after hours
and is up way. I saw Nikita beer who sold an
app to Facebook their last social media acquisition.
They were allowed to do before antitrust and he was like he's
Gonna buy a private jet off his snap calls that he ordered like
right before markets closed for earnings.
There was a wild swing and two Tom's question.
Like I think people this is the same.
I remember when everyone was like stories are going to kill
Snapchat. Like Snapchat is doomed because
Instagram is adding stories and like Snap is continued to add
more users and grow faster than any other public social media
company since then. Well, but there was a period
where it seemed very accurate. I mean that, you know, but
that's because of the redesign Workers cleaning, like, we were
concerned. I mean, you know, this time like
everyone was like conflating the problems with Android, the
problems with International growth and the redesign was
stories, which is like not even the main reason people use snap,
like Snap is a private, it's a private messaging which is
always funny that it's like you know now become a very
successful advertising medium because obviously messaging is
like terrible to monetize and to be perfectly honest I'm still
not quite sure exactly like what is the full like offering of
advertisements these days? Jean snap.
When it's a lot of a our ads they're pushing into where it's
super early because it's a new format, but they're saying like
insane Roi eyes on those limited spend, they have their, it's
like, like the numbers are pretty nuts on like, try on
stuff actually and, like, how it affects customer sentiment, but
they're doing a lot. All the ads are in discover the
she Discover, right? Which is the thing that people
don't even really talk that much about.
And yeah, I mean there's a great story probably still to be
written on like who exactly is that discover audience than
like, what is its cultural? Fact, it's millions and millions
of like, people, they're younger than us.
I mean, it has they have, like, HBO shows in there now?
Like, it's, it's pretty wild. You never hear anyone talking
about. This is my biggest, this is my
biggest, and I've heard this on other episodes of this show.
We as reporters have, got to stop saying, I've never heard
someone has used this. Therefore, it must be a joke
like like I've never like it's a joke.
This is my culture dominates. Like we all talk about fucking
on the hgo like, of course. Yeah, no but like Luckily
culture, like, I think but Tick-Tock he's widely pot,
right? I think that's orders under that
argument is like, so, they're like his very clearly
penetrated. Some, some section of what we
describe as mainstream culture, and absolutely.
I'm not saying there's anything up with it.
I just don't understand like what is the broader cultural
penetration? You want us to be talking about
like young Sheldon or like what is the biggest fucking regular
person TV show in the world right now?
This is us and I live with someone who watches that.
So Is it good or no? It's terrible.
That's not show. See all my all.
My Elite snobbery is justified by the poor quality of the
television that the masks. Hold on, we're getting far
afield here though. I'd it sporty you so.
So so discoveries is there is there a money maker is what
you're saying? Well, and adds in stories and
ads and Spotlight and discover. Yeah.
Which is the format. It's been like that for a couple
years. It's good.
But let's talk about Tick-Tock and and and that aspect of it,
like why has The generational shift towards Tick-Tock not been
that devastating for them because that's not.
So like Tick-Tock is entertainment.
Its passive like I'm on the toilet and I need to like, look
at some funny videos. Snap is actually like an
iMessage replacement. It's like a it's a communication
medium that is way more sticky. There's built-in Network effects
that are very difficult to undo. Its why Zuck offered one of his
like, you know fuck you money multiples for SNAP multiple
times to try to like by the company because once you hit
escape velocity on these kind of Social networks that are built
around day-to-day interaction. It's very hard to unwind that.
So you have to, like, actually, like really destroy the product
over time. And so that's their durability.
Is that like that chat stuff and also on the ad side which like
the revenue piece snaps way earlier in their their
advertising Journey, they maybe have a few hundred thousand
advertisers Max Facebook has over 10 million.
They have this Facebook invented this long tail of like small D
to C brand. Advertisers Snaps are mostly
big. And still companies that can
navigate like, ad targeting problems.
And so they weren't hurt as bad because like, the people who are
hurt are like the, you know, Mom and Pop like, DDC brand that
like used to adjust their ad, spend on Facebook, like every
hour to, like, reach the exact Mom.
They're trying to reach in Des Moines.
You know, like that? That's what got hurt by Apple.
Not like, Coca-Cola, right moms in Des Moines, but what, I
don't, what I find kind of disingenuous on snaps part and I
did not listen to the Ernest. I do not cover this company
more, but I saw their lot of Reve Jeremy Gorman who was asked
reasonably by, you know, by analysts.
Why was it that snap was not hurt as badly by the Apple,
privacy changes as Facebook, and the response was something like,
well, you know, we've optimized for privacy focused,
advertising. It's like, no, that's bullshit,
that's bullshit. That's not true at all.
They just are earlier in their cycle and have a slightly
different, you know, cohort of advertisers that are not as yes,
they're not as tan tracking in order to prove, you know, value
for their advertisement and they're just earlier in their
stage. Like there's more to that bucket
that can be filled. Whereas Facebook is probably
maxed out and they have to just constantly prove to advertisers.
Yes, keep spending at these, you know, humongous amounts because
that's valuable to you whereas snap.
There's just, it's just an easier argument to sell without
the data to back it up. It's absolutely okay.
I think that's fair. Yeah.
Can we talk about sort of the
Apple change? I mean, obviously, you've been
touching on it, but that Drove a lot of the Facebook drop and
there's been a sort of narrative on Twitter.
I think, Matt Stoller, you know, sort of anti monopolist guy.
Google pays Apple, a bunch of money to appear in apple search.
And so Apple likes Google in a way that they don't like
Facebook and therefore, their tilting the change to help
Google and hurt Facebook. I mean that's sort of, I don't
think there's reporting on that nests.
Necessarily, but I don't know. What do you take of that sort of
line of argument and how plausible or implausible is?
There's no evidence that this back room search deal, where,
you know, Google pays Apple, on the order of 10 billion a year,
which is Google's. Hey, more based on just don't
scale so that we don't know. So, the details of the deal have
never been publicly acknowledged by the two companies details of
serviced and litigation, I think the epic games trial, so, you
know, when one Fang is paying the other, you know, on the
order of 10 billion. You're secretly and neither will
discuss it. That's probably a good sign that
there's something weird going on and it's also like 10 billion to
Apple and the grand scheme of things is nothing right, but
that's like free money. Essentially that's like a
hundred percent margin so that actually flows down to their
profit margin in a really powerful way.
And if that were to disappear, it would definitely impact on
earnings. So this is a meaningful
relationship. These two companies have built
over this, like, basically when you open Safari Google's, the
people just forgot that like, because it's been this way
forever since Steve Jobs, like, It's Google when you search in
Safari, right? And so yeah, meta CFO.
Dave, Winer on the earnings call, made a pretty unusual
comment. I don't usually see like a
company, this large their CFO like directly accusing.
Their two largest distribution providers of colluding on an
earnings call but that's basically what he did and he
said, look like the way Apple has rolled out this app tracking
stuff which Tom you and I covered it.
The information and is like disrupted, a lot of things, not
just meta, but he's but they were like the way it applies
just to a Not browsers where it blocks tracking between apps but
not like in a browser necessarily and also like favors
first-party data. So Google has more first-party
data than any other company on Earth.
Arguably. Sure seems to preference Google
and you can actually see a Divergence in like Google's
earnings relative to all the app based advertising businesses and
Google had a monster quarter in e-commerce and Retail meta had a
terrible quarter in e-commerce and Retail.
Well, and those are the two ones that rely the most on very
granular like d2c brand type targeting.
And if this preference is first-party data, it
incentivizes companies to basically merge with each other,
right? It could have impact that that's
true. That game that's a downstream
effect but I think more close to the Google issue.
Is that there's a there's a reporting and measurement issue
here where Apple broke the ability to see real time how
these ads were performing an app.
So like metas was showing people during Christmas like you used
to like a lot of brands. Adjust their spend in the middle
of the day during like the holidays because it's a very
like big time and they're getting a lot of new customers.
They had like a multi-day delay and like reporting, whereas
Google still has perfect data, perfect Insight real-time
reporting. And so of course, all that spend
is going to shift into search. And so the CFO is basically
saying he said as long as this policy exists, this default
agreement that they've worked out where they're paying each
other. Apple has no incentive to to
apply this philosophy of tracking A fairly and their mind
and fairly to them is like tracking is not just like
tracking between an app. It's like, if a company builds a
profile on you, without your explicit, like, consent or
really knowledge of what that profile is, that's like against
the ethos of what Apple says it supports.
And so Google has that they have the probably the best profiles
on because they know our intent right with search.
It's just a different. So that was met as argument.
I think it's an interesting argument.
There's absolutely no evidence to support that.
The reason Apple and Google did this is to fuck with me.
Do I do in your heart of hearts? Believe that Apple just cares
about privacy and is doing these things on a pure.
What's best for privacy? I think there's, I think apple
is so big that there are factions of Apple that view this
differently. I think it's true that like, in
the Tim Cook World, they do actually have a pretty high
minded view of this. It's also like a very smart
brand positioning because like all of other Big Tex getting
pushed towards like abusing privacy.
So it's very smart to position yourself as like the You know,
we're in urine control brand, but there are other parts of the
company that are feel a differently.
And I think like the rollout of this app thing was a
transparency. Tracking thing was a perfect
example of like, I bet the App Store team didn't necessarily
know that the product team was going to roll it out this way
and if they had, they would have said, hold on.
This is going to like fuck with our major, like portion of our
developers who rely on this kind of targeting for app install
ads. So I do think Apple just like is
too big to necessarily like have a defined View of it, but
there's a lot of like, self-serving in this positioning
and like Tim Cook. Absolutely hates.
Mark, Zuckerberg wants to destroy meta wishes that
Facebook was never on the App Store.
Why can't you are? Because I think they felt like
the bad PR that Facebook has gone through kind of have bled
to them a little bit. I don't know if that's
necessarily fair but like since they're the phone that you get
these apps on, they just don't want to be associated with
learning. Potential like company helping
Russia when an election or something like that.
And I also think it's about what's coming next which is
headsets and this like a rvr war and I do think met Aviva, Apple
will be probably the most interesting like Tech business
story of the next like 10 years and so mad about you.
Tim Cook is mad about something that's not going to happen for
like 10 to 15 years at the earliest.
No, no, like this headset. I mean, apples headsets hitting
very soon hitting. Maybe this year.
At least, they're not announce it by the end of this year and
that had say next, Cost of Fortune.
It's knocking. I reported, they were looking at
like a three thousand dollar price point.
It's a talent War right now. So they're trying to hire the
same people to work on the same problems like meta and apple,
and if you can make the other company like sound and look so
bad and like its stock tank. So that like, when you're at a
cocktail party, you'd rather say you work at Apple than meta on a
are they need to bring back with the Eric Schmidt, Steve Jobs
days? I mean collusion is much better
for business than common seems like they're already.
I mean, And Google have this weird symbiotic relationship in
so many ways. Like, Google cloud is the
hosting provider for iCloud, backup.
Your like listen, Eric, they are still colluding, we just don't
know about it for another decade.
Yeah. Google is just probably the most
like, incredible business that's ever been built.
Because I mean they can even just like when they're doing
deals with oems. They can be like will give you a
small percentage of search Revenue through your devices.
And that's just like you can't. No other company.
Has that leverage or that ability to give stuff like For
Partnerships and I just yeah I mean, unless Google unless it
gets broken up, Google is like going to keep running the world
and definitely because they just have all the data.
But Facebook saw this coming a long time ago.
This idea that they were always going to be, you know, in a
weaker position from an ad perspective because they don't
have search. And you remember all the times a
couple years ago, they were trying to build search
functionality into like the Facebook search bar, which that
was a lawyer over and over again, but they knew that
there's something inherently more valuable to being.
The service that takes you to the thing that you wanted, you
know, that you want to learn more about like the lower intent
or two higher intent lower down the funnel rather than just
like, you know, obviously there's huge value and
importance to your social life and you know, your information
ecosystem, but it's still way, way way less important than
literally here. Like, you know, knowledge, just,
yeah, the entirety of your brain, which is what I mean,
Google is just a reflection of your brain.
It's the most brilliant. Add product ever invented.
Yeah, so I don't know. I think the apple is the meta
thing is real. I think it's only going to get
worse from here because meta has the Strategic advantage that as
long as the Wall Street allows them to do this.
Like, Mark is kind of in a Bezos type mindset of like your margin
is my opportunity with Apple. So he's intentionally pricing
their Hardware like below costs like they're losing money so
that, you know, Apple won't do that, they can't do that for
their business model and their margins.
And so, Like apple will have the high-end maybe and they'll be
the Android. And so, it's actually a pretty
smart strategy against Apple. But one that won't really be
valuable for at least 10 years. No, no, no VR will be much.
So like, yeah, but driving like impactful for its business, I
mean, sure, you can ship a couple of units, but VR based on
everything I read in here. I think we'll be hitting console
level. It already sold more than the
Xbox last year. The quest, I think their
totality of VR will be selling On soul level, like Global
shipments in the next 3, S years and probably approaching PC
within five I think is like the general consensus.
So that's you're talking tens igneous, to use VR regularly for
to be valuable, right? I mean they don't want to they
will they can't just make the money off, Hardware Sales, you
need, you know, real yeah. Yeah yeah.
I'm sure you talked about this in the Phil libin interview
right where he was just like he buys them all and put some in a
clothes suck right now. Yeah.
But like what's coming is the mixed reality.
Any idea where it's like passed through video.
And so, we are sucks because it's isolating and the screens
aren't very good and it's bulky and it doesn't feel good on your
face and there's not good audio. All, that's changing.
Like apple didn't you? Ask Jana Reeves about this?
He was very skeptical. I thought, oh yeah, I asked he
clowned on me about in ft's And so like when you think about the
concept of digital scarcity and things that are, you know, they
can't be copied that are easily reproduced.
Well, they're not the same, right?
It's not fake version of you. I wonder what our do.
We get a cut of that? Oh no.
I don't. Actually, I don't think we're in
him. They probably did other people.
You have to take that up with the studio?
And yeah, man. I missed all of this.
Oh yeah. Using see this Tom, no, he that
was fun. It was like, kids face.
Realize it was you, right? But he was like, you were sort
of the mystery man on the other side of it.
Yeah. In a viral moment.
Yeah, yeah. He was like, you know, can the
metaverse not be owned by Facebook.
That's an old idea. Like that goes, way, way back
and I asked her about NF T's. And he just, like, lay out this
hyena, like laughs. It was like, right?
But my point is, you're you're a bit of A True True Believer on,
on the VR stuff. I mean, you're talking.
I see where the hardware is going.
I mean, I see where the Hardware and software is going and I
think the trend of tech is that more immersive.
Engaging technology always wins and that's what these headsets
are going to be doing soon. So like who is not going to
maybe want to try IMAX on their face like for like a really cool
video game with like spatial audio and like maybe a social
that's coming in the next year to two years because like Met
has got their own version of that that will be high end.
So that Tech will start high end at the price will come down over
the next few years and then they are glasses will About probably
five to eight the v1's of those and that's like more for outside
these headsets are all inside, but they're going to be like a
PC companion. / replacement in terms of like the quality very
soon. Explain to me what the five
years from now. A our experience is going to be
like will have like these headsets in our homes that we
want to use for like either resumes or maybe like working
because there's already like pretty robust hand tracking and
keyboard stuff and like they'll be armbands.
Met has got one they're working on.
On that, like, can do EMG like a rager kind of muscle signals to
have like, Phantom limbs for like typing without even really
moving. That's all that's all coming.
Let's not get weird shit. Okay, yeah, Works yet.
I mean all this starts, I'm always saying on this show to
argue for the metaverse like replacing zoom and browsing
guess. Huge like that's it's huge.
And also like better gaming like when I interviewed Zach last
year, I mean, he made the point that like they're like people
We'll spend on average four to six hours a day.
Watching television screens in their homes.
And those are like these like to deeply panels way up on a wall.
This is my Superior. So yeah, but like is it as big
as dual 8K displays on your face?
What's special audio, right? Like that's the thing like when
you when you tried the stuff with eye tracking, which like
makes it so that the it's not as hot.
And like it renders way cleaner and you don't get a sick like
this text already been about everything.
I would say, that's my yeah. I mean, I probably sound
ridiculous. I just like, based on like, were
I see, I know everyone who comes on.
Here is like, VR is a joke but like the tech is getting very
good and we just haven't seen a mass consumer version of it yet,
but it's coming. Very, what about your point is
that the best consumer adoption will happen when the tech meets
it? Which you think is going to
happen and imminently like in the Apple V1?
Yeah. Apple V1 will be probably
shipped by next year, announced this year and then metas doing a
tie in Cambria had set this year as well.
But how RB is almost the counter-argument to this like
Snap Facebook. Like they're all like second
screen apps. Like part of the beauty of
Television is that you can do something else, you can look
over at your partner or significant know, you can like
Beyond these headsets though. Like that's the idea is like you
could do with anyone in the world.
Like you like your avatar. Could pop in just looking over
at your avatar. The second time happening
basically, in, in the device itself.
Well, I get this time, I get to cynicism, Awesome, but it is
better than like me texting you next to me like you I would feel
like you're more next to me. If it was an avatar then like I
guess, I mean if you're still putting on a device and so
you're already making a commitment beyond the sort of
like passive, you know, moment of like oh let me see what Alex
is up to let me text him versus like yeah, put on the fucking
headset, right? It's like a cinema noticed every
season is ugly outside. Oh, this is gonna be a long
commitment where as well? That's good.
Describe the process of getting on the handset of being
cumbersome, phones used to suck like trying to navigate typing
on a phone sucked. Like, before the I we just got
you're saying the technology didn't change all that much.
We just decided that it's Kris would be talking about
multi-touch touchscreen, keyboards, like dictation.
Like, we have so many more ways of texting now than we did 10
years ago. Like, I mean, are pause where we
can just say things to people over text.
Like I'm just saying that you and I are pod guy, you're just
walking around on the street, dictate all the time all the
time. Where your soul is here on that.
Yeah, I just I like to take the opposite view.
He kills everyone in the deaf. I definitely blend in and so
really. Yeah, I think, like, everyone in
media loves to just, like, shed on this stuff and I get it.
It's like very goofy right now. But like, if you actually study
how good the hardware is getting and where the companies are
making their bets, like, you must think that Tim Cook Mark
Zuckerberg, Evan, Spiegel Satya Nadella, whatever the fuck
Amazon's doing. Like, they're all stupid, they
all don't like, They're all making the same bet.
Like it's the only thing apple and meta agree on is that these
headsets are important to be clear.
I believe. I think it's a tight timeline
question and yeah, you know, you can invest too early but I agree
with you mostly well, giving you a, let's move on.
Let's move off. Let's talk about the people.
I mean you guys both have obsessed over Evan Spiegel
unhealthily at times. Like what the I mean?
Where does he still see? Himself is like the genius and
he's been sort of, huh? Mumbled like he had these sort
of like, you know, he tried to do spectacles, he's not a big
player in this future. I don't know what sort of what's
due talk. Why doesn't God Alex is closer
to this than I am? It's been a couple of years.
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I've talked to him.
I think there was a time where you could say oh he's like the
next Steve Jobs and people wouldn't be like oh that's
crazy. But I think he was trying to get
that image rice, but that jobs, portrait is in his office.
And here's the interesting thing about The outside you tell me
how wrong I am about this? Alex has again, everything I'm
saying is multiple multiple years out of date, what I find.
So interesting about snap these days is that as a business, it's
never been better. Write their cash flow positive.
Something that I did not think was going to happen, it's
possible. Yeah, you know, they are growing
in India which is something that Evan had zero interest in doing
a couple of years ago. Every fucking night.
I get a push alert from snap telling me that so-and-so added,
you know, to their new story which is something that Ian
would have murdered an engineer for suggesting that they do on a
regular can turn that off. I have that off by the way.
Oh yeah. Well I, if I cared more I would
I just like to be reminded that certain people back to their
stories, but look, the level of push alerts.
That snap is doing Snapchat. Whatever is like, leagues,
beyond anything that Evan would have wanted to do.
He's sold them as we were saying he gave up on the business.
He built a business, he got two kids, and, yeah, he is
fundamentally had to give up certain aspects of what he
expected. This company to be in order to
Build something that is more appealing to to the markets and
I find it you know it good for him, he's built a business, he's
built value for people but the certainly wasn't the company
that I thought he wanted to have done back in like 2015.
Do you think they were just going to be all like spectacles
by now? Like this.
Just like no snapshot of well. Okay, look, there's certain
things that he had to give up like, you know, in-app purchases
being book. You know, the core business
rather than advertisements but like they're tracking people as
much as anyone else can in order.
Sure if, you know, Value with their advertisements, they need
to hit their numbers. So they have to do push alerts
to like Show, You Know, da you increases above 20%, you know,
year over year. These are all things that like a
boring ass, Silicon Valley tech company has to do in order to be
a successful business. And listen, buddy, we all grow
up one day. We all have to get there, but
it's it's not the most inspiring thing.
Well, he's very, you know, her with his billions of dollars.
I think like, yeah, the notification thing you're
harping on. I don't really get because the
main thing is Which requires notifications to tell you if
someone has responded to your message.
So now that's what I'm talking about.
Like just pure up like engagement juicing, which is
what like a push alert saying so-and-so, a still think.
Yeah. But you, I'd are doing it more
than they used to. Wait.
Wait, turn that off like I turned it off.
You can turn them off at Facebook to.
It doesn't mean that it isn't like a core part of their
strategy now though. Sure.
I just like yeah, they're doing things.
They he didn't ever wanted to do.
He didn't know he, you know this, he never wanted to be an
advertising company. That was like something, he got
kind of pushed him to Doing because there was no other way
at the time, there was no crypto web.
They wanted to be taxed like yeah.
And they're put there doing this super app strategy.
The problem I think with them and their perception, is that
the user base is just so different from anyone who covers
them and so you know people don't cover them like they do
Twitter or matter or whatever but like I would I would argue
that there's still in terms of like hits on the board.
There's no other social media company that has invented so
many formats and ideas that have been Keep Bic like ubiquitously
copied like bitmoji, like Met has literally just now getting
around to copying that snap. They copied with Ray-Ban, like,
literally everything snap has done except maybe the map thing
because that's special to them. And like the close friends
aspect of it has been copied and so likewise that now, right?
I mean it's sort of well they have find my right.
Like if you do snap map it's way different.
It has a bunch of like extra layers to it and social stuff
that sort of like my doesn't he? And now look I'm not
criticizing. Evans foresight and talent as a
product Visionary. I'm just saying the business
that he's ended up with, which is now a very good one.
It is pretty much. Just a symbolism brings
everybody to their heels, you know, like look at my cleavage.
You have quarterly earnings. Yeah.
Like sure. It's more like Facebook but it's
also like a Better Business than Twitter and it's younger than
Twitter and it's like already make.
I mean like Global assets at least it's not Twitter.
Like at least like it's growing and I don't know, the spectacles
thing is the thing I'm Most bearish on honestly.
Like, I think he maybe has aspirations to be a software
layer and like, kind of advisor to a hardware company or an oem
on the glasses, down the road. But do you get us have the, is
he happy with where they are now?
Or he's sort of like, the type of person?
You know, I need to be a top ten company at some point, or, I'll
know think he thinks in terms of market cap, clearly not in terms
of like valuation, because he had multiple chances to sell
astronomical valuations. He's very into this AR thing
again. It's like when I look at Devon
Zack cook that who are I would say the three maybe most like
accomplished people still leading tech companies right
now. In terms of like their strategy
Minds You could argue snaps. Still has a lot to prove.
But I think in terms of what we just talked about what they've
invented, they think I had in there, right?
A lot of the time, they all agree that like this are
glasses, thing is coming and it's going to be huge and that's
where he's spending a lot of his time as on the a our software
and on Snap lab where I reported they are Tom do you remember the
Drone thing? They were going to do.
Sure, they've revived with the Drone.
Drones are back as because they're finally making money.
They want to, like, do a bunch of Hardware shed and I wouldn't
be surprised if there's a watch and multiple glasses and like
companion devices. Like he's got this Hardware
strategy that they just do not have the resources to compete at
scale with apple and metal on, they have good talent.
They have creative people but like they don't, you know, it
still has that Underdog feel to it as a company.
I still think he views it as like we're here to like throw
darts at meta. And like be the anti Meadow
which in the stock market, they definitely were this week.
Yeah, no I mean he's definitely if that's still a core tenet of
his it's been a good week. Yeah it's good for recruiting,
it's good for like you know, people recruiting people from
Mehta who are disillusioned and you know there's a huge Talent
we're going on for all this air of stuff.
So like it's important to have your brand be like considered
the kind of cool Underdog but I don't know.
I tried the new spectacles, the I think you guys talked about, I
think you made fun of my demo at one point on the show.
Uh-huh. I like and how as you know
positively I wrote about them but like it's more just like
it's they're not good now, like they're not anything normal.
People are going to wear and that's why they're not selling
them to people. But like it's very easy to see
that this is going to get good and like that they've got the
pieces to make it good and like there's like a scan thing where
like once the scanning Tech, it's good like you've got visual
search on your face, like, all this stuff is going to be
hitting. It's just like not it's early,
it's early days, but it's, it's I can See where it's more than
just like a magically come. Look at our Magic Box
experiment. It's like it's actually starting
to work in the real world. It's just not great yet.
Do you want to spend a minute on Pinterest or should we should we
respond? What do you, what do you think
about Pinterest? Tom, because you covered, you
covered Pinterest more over the years.
I've dabbled in, and out, but it looks like there have lost.
Like it reminds me of snapping. Like the Nick Bell leaving are
alike, 2018 2017, when every week was like I was hearing that
another exact was leaving snap and it seems like that's the
case. With Pinterest right now.
And we're talking, I was talking about this with Eric before we
started, I'm always a little and I'm guilty of this myself.
I do think reporters get a little over excited or maybe
over index for executives or leaving company.
Therefore, it's in complete turmoil.
I think we're in a unique time now, where people don't really
want to work at large companies and certainly not large social
media companies. And so, you know, Pinterest
social media over the fuck they are.
You know, they're some sort of amalgam of a Silicon Valley ad
tech company. That also Has like a social
layer to it but yeah they've lost a couple of Executives.
The information reported that I'm sure it messed things up for
them, but I also think they lost like 9i.
That's the thing, it's like it's a snap level, like clear the
bench. Like what it signals to me
whenever I read because there were MMA rumors about them with
Michael, right? So that that's more damaging to
me than anything because I yeah that yes that that should be me
that says, because they had a corked of left.
Like and so like that to me says that a lot of the senior Can
file people. A lot of the senior people
wanted to sell Ben Silverman didn't or they couldn't get a
good deal done another all leaving and that right that's
actually more than just like a couple execs leaving.
I mean I think it's like nine at this point.
Sure it's not great. Yeah I do think it's fair to
countenance that with the fact that there are a lot of
Executives leaving a lot of not particularly inspiring sure but
he's these days. So you know you can you can make
of that. What you want?
I think Pinterest is an incredible advertising vehicle.
If you just think about like the core product itself, it is very,
you know, corporate or sorry. It's very product adjacent and
so their ability to make money from.
It is pretty huge. I think the problem that they
have is that they're losing users and you know it, yeah, and
and good talent, I mean that the app doesn't do you use the app?
No, not the app. I use the service from time to
time because I've been, you got some real operating on.
Yeah, that's why. Yeah, you know, the times of
people use it, which is like you did when you dip out like that.
So, social media so much, my wife is an interior designer.
She uses Pinterest all day everyday, like power user.
She always is like this app sucks.
Like every time she's like, it doesn't work.
It just breaks. Like it doesn't make sense the
way to navigate it. So that to me says like from
someone who knows it really well that they just probably don't
have like good engineering and like they're not hiring the best
people and they can't build the best product because this stock
is tanking and they don't have a business yet.
So they're in this like kind of death trap, it seems like well
the the stock is tanking thing is relatively new.
I mean, if you look at this chart over the last year they
actually were a huge winner during endemic true but you know
better to be that than not and you know their value is a
company went up substantially over the course of last year.
It's obviously plummeted now and I agree with you there in kind
of this nether region where even though they got a lift after it
turned out their numbers weren't as bad as investors were
expecting post meta, they didn't get the snap like bomb and so
that is fundamentally. I think a better you know, it's
a better app. And you know, a more sustainable
future and it doesn't seem like they've evolved that much from a
product standpoint. So I think they're probably this
is so out of my league but like I think they're probably in a
stage where they can make a bunch more money overseas, you
know, they were barely monetizing outside of the US and
so like you'll be able to see Revenue growth over the next,
you know, year or two. But like the core question of
like, is this app going to grow? Do they have, you know, some
sort of a meta play or Something that can, you know give a clear
indication as to the next, the next stage.
I don't I don't see it myself and I think the fact that they
probably came pretty close to selling to Microsoft, it's hard
to get past that. I mean you could make an
argument that Twitter even though the business is doing
better now. Never really, you know, changed
after that whole period in 2017 when they were going to sell to
conditioning, I know I know Google tried to buy Pinterest
to, I think it was before they listed Google has this ritual.
Like the air before any hot like consumer or even really SAS, but
definitely consumer like Network effects company, goes to public.
They have a, you know, will give you like above your listing
price like just come to Google anyway.
They probably have stopped doing that because of antitrust but
yeah, they they they definitely tried it with Pinterest.
So I think that would perfect sense, right?
If it's basically like a nice little like social layer on top
of double-click. Yeah, yeah.
So I don't know it's not, I wouldn't be too bullish on them.
You know, we just were always obsessed with Mark Zuckerberg on
this show. I mean, I can tell I've been
trying to think over how to ask, I mean, I want to know what you
what you think's up with him, who sort of in the mix.
But I mean, I think, you know, when we first got to know, like,
when I first came to Silicon Valley, like, you know, this
sort of Facebook people, there is like an earnest You know,
they love product, they do like talking about the future.
And so, you know, if you read it just like knowing their
personalities, there's a sense that the sort of meta push is
sincere and that they like device is very sincere.
And I feel like that's a part of the posture of reporting is
like, you know, believing them to some degree on that.
Whereas, whereas, like, I think a lot of, you know, sort of the,
I don't know, Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg types.
You know, you can just become Very focused on the quarterly
earnings and then you see everything is a game or if
you're obsessed with antitrust. You see it as like a messaging
thing to get away from that. I don't know, that's sort of
just a statement of purpose. But I mean am I right to say
that you believe you take them seriously.
When they, when they seemed excited about sort of the
product piece of VR and, and sort of the meadow?
Yeah, because it's more than just like words.
It's like the people who are moving Owing to that division.
The fact that it's like 15,000 people.
The fact that they spend over 10 billion a year on it.
The fact that it's like we're zacha spending his time, like
legitimately like, of course, I take it.
Seriously. I find reporters who.
Don't take it seriously to be kind of.
Unlike what do you, what is your job was?
Like, why are you? Why are you like just assuming
that this is like and like check and make sure, but you're just
assuming that this is like a joke because you're cynical
about the company. I think there's way too much.
Cynicism about like their motives.
And I'm not saying their motives are pure by any means but like
yeah, no I do take it seriously. I'm like, I'm not a like text
synthesis either. Like I think Tech is cool.
I think it can be misused, but I think it's like also very cool.
It's why I got into this job is because I'm a nerd and like but
I also like do the like, you know, Facebook disbanded its
Civic Integrity team. And here's why I type story,
right? I do that.
But like I do take this seriously and I think I think
it's important that people do it.
I mean, like, they may decide to give up, but I think it's kind
of like no going back at this point.
Is the vibe that I get like this is like, I was talking to
someone and on the glasses, you know, Division and like they're
like, this is I of Sauron, like Zuck on us.
Like, this is like, this is like there.
It's the most intense. This person had worked and
Silicon Valley to bunch of big tech companies for a long time.
It was like this is the most intense founder involvement in
any like project I've ever seen. I mean, I got to take that
seriously. The dude is like one of the most
powerful people in the world so I don't know.
What do you Des if you think the
media has become soft? What you got?
Soft? No, I'm not calling you.
So I do, I mean, I think part of this show is like, we think that
reporter is got like to - I mean, there is like such a drum
beat. There's just such a drumbeat
against, you know, if you'll like the media does want to
dislodge like Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, no kidding.
I mean like I guess the T. My thing is like I think it gets
old, I think. People are sick of the same old
like stories of like we found this Russia, you know, saying or
the Macedonia teens on. I'm not saying those stories
aren't important, like they should keep happening, but I
think the overall tenor of the coverage.
Yeah, is like, just de facto cynical de facto.
This is a joke, like all the headlines this week are like,
this is the end of Facebook and like, I don't know, I just don't
know if readers. Like I think others are subsets
of readers who definitely love that and you're obviously
playing to that but I are like are you?
I try to not think about like just one audience I'm like I
want the people who also work at this company to read me and to
feel like I'm critiquing the company and being harsh where I
need to be. But also like I care about this
stuff and I'm not just like de facto slamming it, you know,
what I was gonna say, I also think there is a very poor, like
one of the mistakes that reporters make in writing about
Facebook is they conflate social problem.
Eames. And the impact that a company's
technology has on society with its business and you see that
happening with Joe Rogan now. You know at Spotify they're like
oh you know, after Neil Young announced that he was going to
be pulling his catalog from Spotify, its stock fell 10%,
it's like you fucking idiots, that is nothing.
That's not the reason the stock fell and then it came up the
next day like for fuck's sake. That's the other thing is like
my stories, the reason Facebook declined 1% unless you got
numbers that like a million, you know, like hackers have Straight
like their infrastructure like and they haven't announced it
yet, you're not moving the stock of a company that large like,
that's, that's another pet peeve.
I have anyway. Sorry.
Right. But also, you know, in the case
of Facebook, I really think there were a lot of reporters
who got, you know, high on their supply that because they wrote
so many great pieces about their, you know, social
infrastructure team or or whatever whatever you call it.
You know, the problems that they've had in in terms of
moderating contents or name any Facebook, scan of the last five
years. That that was really going to
hurt its business. And it's like, you know, there
was also a So, a long period of time that as a business
reporter. You also could have explained.
Look, these guys are running up against a wall in terms of user
growth that you know, Apple's privacy changes are going to
hurt them and you have done this I'm not blaming you specifically
but I think a mistake the tech reporters have made is as
they've seen the influence that technology has had Beyond just
the industry itself. They've conflated that with the
business and you, you mislead people into thinking that that
is going to change a, that core aspect of their of their
business. And again, you just do a
disservice to readers. You can Both.
But like, explain to people that there's a huge difference
between these types of stories while it's also you just ignore
the business like, alot of Facebook covers, just ignores
the advertising business. Like, I like, how do they make
money? Like, what is their actual
vulnerability in their weakness? Exactly.
Like it's people are. So this is, I think Facebook is
a perfect example is like house in Industry.
We kind of like can play to our peers more than we can to what I
think an audience wants. And I honestly think a lot of
The Joe Rogan coverage has gone into this realm as well.
Wear it Like we love to like, sit here and be like, are there
a publisher or are they a platform?
Like, oh my gosh, and I wasn't speaking about this incessant
like and Eric, like, I think that's an important debate for
us to have and like, the media. My job licker insiders.
So I don't even have. Yeah, 10.
And like, I don't even for tends to speak for this podcast is
where that conversation should be happening.
But like, most people do not fucking care.
And like that is the reality most people do not actually
think they're like a lot of the That we just assume that
everyone feels about Facebook like this.
It's just like Facebook is seen very differently in other parts
of the world and so, like you can't ignore that and I don't
know. Anything like included, I mean,
and politicians and like, potentially deservedly and
tarnishing Facebook's reputation.
So I mean they have moved it and I do want to serve it.
I mean there is an argument that like if Mark Zuckerberg has done
something Beyond like forgiveness or is not the person
to run the company, or is causing started this global I'm
which I think some people believe and there's like a
credible argument for I don't think it's like reasonable to
just like stop hitting that drum because it's like exhausting to
be - I don't know. That's really a challenge
journaling about, I mean, no, I agree.
I agree with you. I don't think that you should
stop. I think it's like, I think a lot
of the coverage is ignored everything else or not, taking
it seriously because it's how, he only thinks it's sort of
like, okay, you need to represent this piece of it with
this part of. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to be
real. I mean, like, we know it gets
Awards consideration, we know What like gets are pat on the
back from our editor and our colleagues.
And it's the it's not the like, it's not the stuff that isn't
related to disinformation and fake news and these topics that
we love to just act like have Universal definitions, but don't
and yeah. So no.
I mean there's a lot of I sound. I think I sound like an
apologist for Facebook right now.
But I think I'm more. I just want I want like more
balanced coverage in general. I think I try to do that and I
get slammed like I got slammed for The zuc interview as it
being soft and it being like, why don't you ask him about how
good and the one who is about, like the metaverse, the Rebrand.
Yeah. And like, what the fuck is he
going to say? Like, he really literally, like
he just said it on an earnings call, he just said that it
doesn't make sense her claims, like he was very blunt like way
more blunt than like, Tim Cook has ever been about anything and
like, what is he going to tell me in the 30 minutes I have with
him to talk about like, a massive, like Rebrand of one of
the largest companies in the world, like I'm going to go back
through One still like Instagram for kids like and like when he's
already talked about it and he's a CEO he's not going to say
anything new and I was worried Ben.
Thompson is talked about this challenge, some on his podcast
ruined dinner and I think I mean it is hard.
When you have these CEOs you want to, you have to have a
productive discourse. I mean part of it is just
obviously I prefer a world where you could, it's more like a
deposition. You have like three hours
really? Like, that would be a just world
where you're really, you know, it's not performative in.
Trying to really go through the stuff but given the reality that
if it's like, yeah, especially 30 minutes, it is sort of like a
performance and they're sort of kind of it terms because, you
know, it's so short. Like, these interviews are all
performances. Well, I also just have a
fundamental, I have a fundamental disagreement.
We talked about this in an earlier episode and Katie and I
disagreed on this. I just don't there's no magic.
You know, Elixir that our reporter has or like there may
be able to wave a wand that because they asked the right
question at the right time the Earth's, you know, shifted a
couple degrees off of its access Like we're all there to ask the
right questions and hopefully get an answer from it.
But the true impact comes from the stories that investigate
things of the co, you know, isn't going to talk about.
And so, you know, I do think we have an obligation and you know,
you can argue one way or the other whether you wish you had
asked to do something to suck that you didn't you know, to ask
a hard question. But fundamentally you know the
real reporting that matters isn't going to come through that
interview. It's performative.
And so I feel for ni I haven't Been in a situation like you
have where, you know, I'm speaking to a high-level CEO in
an interview that's going to be scrutinized in that way, but I
don't, I just don't blame the reporter in that particular case
here. I think you can blame them if
like the totality their work of, you know, elides on huge
problems and you know, purposefully chooses not to
cover them because they think it'll benefit their career long
term or something weird like that.
But I just don't think that. Yeah, the the core of reporting
comes through the few times. You get to interview the person
in power. And I just, I try to remind
myself. There are things that people
care about that. We don't always obsessed with in
the media. Like there's like that matter at
a company that scale like asking him, are you going to be Co in
five years like, stuff like that, that I did ask him like is
a little off the like it's not Facebook files but like it
matters to be like these kind of question like if I get a chance
to ask Zuckerberg, some things I want to also throw things in
that like not just the crowd that loves to eat up the like
Facebook is bad. No.
Matter what stories will be interested in because I'm trying
to like, reach a lot of people, right?
I mean, I've been on both sides of this argument.
I mean, there is a degree to which if you're a reporter
trying to hammer a narrative, like, if you're really trying to
focus attention on your reporting and you feel like it,
it's reporting that if people paid attention to would have
impact. But it's hard to keep the
attention on there and the companies just doing everything
they can to avoid it. Then you want to sort of have
this Of tight-knit network of reporters that can sort of force
the conversation that you think is societally important.
And then it can be annoying when the company can try to find
Pockets to scape that. But of course, that sort of
argument that I make is what the vast majority of the public and
companies hate about reporters. The idea that there could be
sort of control of the message to such a degree that you force.
Man, if you want to, man, if you want to talk about control the
message, that that is Apple. All like meta is actually.
It is one of the easiest companies to talk to and one of
the most forthright I found and like Zuck actually actually
subject. I thought the whole debate about
like Zuck never does interviews with like, you know.
So and so he's not open and like available, he does way more
interviews with journalists in Tim Cook.
Tim Cook, six down. He sits down with like a fucking
YouTuber. That's like he's pressed for the
year old still like be. Like I was just, you know, I
totally different totally different standard.
And they're, they're arguably way more influential.
Unlike important. And so, yeah, no, I agree.
It's like the standard thing is like, very interesting.
It's like, remember when Jack Dorsey was sitting down with
like, every third person that asked that there was like a
three or four month period, we have is doing like he would he
would have appeared on like the 200th most important podcast.
Yeah. I've never interviewed Jack have
you guys know? But he was sort of I had cost
the firm that I accosted him at Sun Valley once a it was a
little earlier, right? I mean, it was a little I was
still new wish I forget. What years?
I mean. Aaron's demos was like big on
getting Jack. Super out there.
I think for a period. Yeah.
Jack's. A fun.
One day interview. I feel like right now he'd be
just like wild. Like I know.
No, no Jack. Come on.
Yeah. Yeah you want to show?
I mean the whole like everyone's is ID number and reason for
which you start Chris Dixon was going after Bobby, good lat.
Like last night, I'm just like egregious, anyway.
Not the biggest player in Silicon Valley is has Bitcoin
investor, but it just I mean I've On complain that these
people aren't sort of confrontational enough and like,
like to keep all their fights and private.
So I guess I happy to see anyway.
Yeah, there's all starting to fight with each other on
Twitter, which side, it's on Twitter, something real, like if
you take it to another venue and I'll give it a little bit more
time of day for right now, it just seems like entertainments
rights Patty. They're not like writing like
essays or like yeah and they're certainly not, I don't know.
Do you think if like we weren't on Twitter all day like coverage
of these companies would be way. A different.
It's so you be so different. Yeah, it's so like it's such an
echo chamber and it's just I for young reporters to like coming
in till I covering these companies.
They're looking at like more established people for cues of
what to cover. I mean I did this and like it
just has this like feedback Thing That Never Ends, right?
I know we all like, need the like Steven Levy or like, or
like this day. Max Max chaff kannur Brad.
So, I mean, just any of these? Where they like are almost like
disconnected from the beat reporter.
In the be reporters, like myself would go all like pissed off
that they're not like asking the questions that were obsessed
with of the moment, but they like, do the long interview, I
mean, Matt Matt Honan would do these with Google sometimes we I
feel like those types of stories, I think it's partially.
The companies haven't been cooperating because the media
has been so negative. I don't know where of those
stories. Gone are like it wasn't there.
They've mostly. Yeah, disappeared.
I mean Levy had is, you know, had some access to Facebook for
a while. And that book and marks done
some interviews wired wire, did a fairly long Zuck you know
inside his world during kind of the Cambridge analytic.
It's the one where he's beat up on the cover.
Yeah. Yeah.
And read the one that had all the comms department but that
was like reporter e. That was very like interested in
the things we care about that was that was a very specific
Source space. Yes, and no people know who
talked in that. Worried.
But that was also not mark on the record, right?
Like you know, like Isaac's got his Facebook book coming out and
he's working on, maybe he'll get some access, I don't know like I
think Mark is down to like talk to people but it's like I think
a lot of the vibe is that a lot of the reporters who cover meta
or like just like by default. Confrontational.
Not even like I think it's a difference between like being
quizzical and like a not assuming like something is
correct or Has the right intentions and being like
downright confrontational and there's honestly some of that
vibe in like people sweets. Are you, are you you consider
yourself a view from nowhere reporter?
I don't know. I definitely have opinions, but
I actually intentionally try to not fully form opinions so like
I like I'm more motivated by Scoops and like uncovering
things and not necessarily like connecting all the dots and so I
think I like to hide behind the reporting a little bit.
Like I actually don't want you to know.
What I've you of meta is like a net good or net bad because I
honestly don't know. And I think if you say, you know
and you're an outsider, you're lying because like you like you
there's no way of knowing like at scale like we don't have the
data so it's like I don't know. Yeah I try to like hide behind
it. I think it works for like
sourcing as well because you know, like people at these
companies if they feel like you're at least like are willing
to hear them out and not like assume they're evil, then you
know, they'll talk to you. So I think it's a more of a
Long-term view honestly well, certain kind of sourcing, right?
I mean I think one of the advantages that reporters have
when they're so outspoken about their personal beliefs is that
you can cultivate a certain perspective.
Yeah. You cultivate one side.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Which is not to name names but
like you can definitely you know, he's turned effective.
Yeah, if you're out there just like constantly tweeting about
how absurd something that Facebook has done is.
Well, it's like Ryan Mac going to war with like Tesla or
whatever on your face. It's it's intentional and I
think it's a great reporter and he is great, just like a good
strategy. If you know your side, they know
your side and then they go to you.
I mean time have their strategy, I do not want to fight with him,
will tweet it. Well, it's good to know the show
to you mean, I know it's good to I, this is real shit that we're
talking about. Like, yeah, I think it's good to
have different strategies and I may be a little old school.
I don't know like, or to a lot of people nowadays.
I may just be soft but like, I think there's value and not
everyone taking the same approach and I think There's
value in Ryan's approach and I think there's value in mind and
like, I'm not saying there's are bad, I'm just saying, like, we
need a mix. We don't need to all be doing
the exact same fucking thing because like some people have
big newspapers, cover something a certain way like write a mix
of like approaches to reporting. Now, we're back to, we spend too
much time on Twitter. I, by the way, believe I've
been, I've been limiting my Twitter, a little bit.
The last couple of weeks, I swear to God sources.
It's unrelated. I think there's something Cosmic
that happens when you lean back on, like, time spent on Twitter
and like sources will call me back They just know they're like
this guy isn't tweeting. Yeah, I think it's like if
anything was like, some sort of indication from a higher power
that I shouldn't spend as much time on here.
I literally have better days reporting in ways that have
nothing to do with Twitter. When I spend less time on their
Robin Hood, Twitter puts Okay order.
Yeah. No.
It's and that is interesting that like that's bigger expiry
my tweeting effects Twitter stock then they have bigger
problems. Yeah.
Anyway Alex. This was great.
Thank you so much for joining. Yeah.
Well, we'll do this again. Yeah.
This Thanks for having me, guys. Thank you, goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
Thanks for having me, guys. Thank you, goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.