1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:01,280 Hello. Hello, everybody. 2 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,520 It's Tom Doughton here bringing you their latest episode of the 3 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:08,920 Newcomer podcast, joined by Eric, Newcomer of Newcomer and 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,720 Madeline Renbarger of Newcomer. Welcome everybody. 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:13,400 How you guys doing? You love that. 6 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:15,920 I'll never stop. I asked Tom if you wanted to 7 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,040 change the podcast name. He said no. 8 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:19,880 It's a brand. It's a big giant end. 9 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,280 Well, I'm just a contractor, so I'm actually a free radical here 10 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,920 You guys are deep in deep in the swamp of newcomer. 11 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaking of the swamp, Madeline, you just returned from the 12 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,280 swamp. I was talking to you yesterday. 13 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,400 You were at a defense tech conference, Hill and Valley. 14 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:35,720 Why is it called Hill and Valley? 15 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,440 So I actually let me clarify, it was Co hosted with the Hill and 16 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,080 Valley forum, but it was actually called winning the AI 17 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,160 race, which was a new conference also Co hosted with the all in 18 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:47,880 podcast. So I want to clarify for the 19 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,160 brand's sake, a different event, but it's called Hill and Valley 20 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,080 because it's, you know, the merger of, you know, DC, the 21 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,480 Hill and the Silicon Valley coming together. 22 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,600 Silicon Valley. See, I was thinking, no, I'm not 23 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,400 smart in that way. And I actually I was liking my 24 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,760 brain because you know, there are some like Chinese based 25 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,200 private equity firms called like Hill House Capital and stuff and 26 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,280 you never know what that means. I thought this was some weird 27 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,480 permutation of that, but no. This podcast is supported by 28 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,560 Google. Hi folks, Paige Bailey here from 29 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,760 the Google DeepMind Devrel team. For our developers out there, we 30 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,520 know there's a constant trade off between model intelligence, 31 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,880 speed and cost. Gemini 2.5 Flash aims right at 32 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:29,840 that challenge. It's got the speed you expect 33 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,160 from Flash, but with upgraded reasoning power. 34 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,200 And crucially, we've added controls like setting thinking 35 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,800 budgets so you can decide how much reasoning to apply, 36 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,560 optimizing for latency and costs. 37 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,880 So try out Gemini 2.5 Flash at aistudio.google.com and let us 38 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,600 know what you build. Tell me, tell me so and you just 39 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,120 found out at some point as you were there like, ah shit, I'm at 40 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,280 an all in conference. Yeah, so it was advertised as 41 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,240 being Co hosted by All In. But what I did not realize 42 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,920 getting into it is that the on stage programming was a 5 hour 43 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,520 live all In podcast. Where the All In. 44 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,040 Guys, I didn't even realize that. 45 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,400 Yes, they all in guys were on stage with all of these tech 46 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,680 leaders and Trump administration officials just kind of running 47 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,880 through Trump's new AI policy and reacting to it and chumming 48 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,960 it up and hanging out on a couch. 49 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,680 That was the general vibe. There also was the classic 50 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,680 networking section outside where you could talk with founders and 51 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,840 investors that attended. My God. 52 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,520 So we're gonna have a whole future media segment of this 53 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,200 show, I guess. Man, I didn't realize that piece 54 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,520 of it. Or I guess we have to make like 55 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,240 Cerebral Valley a live podcast, like a 5 hour podcast now. 56 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,360 Like if that's the bar, we. Just want like filibustering but 57 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,760 anyway. Well, it's kind of funny to me 58 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,440 that I mean, you know, not to start off with the all in guys 59 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,640 because really the less about them, the better we say. 60 00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:49,840 But like, you know, they've played a huge part in, you know, 61 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,200 the the Trump, the tech MAGA movement. 62 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,920 And obviously David Sachs is part of the administration now. 63 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:58,880 But this seems to be like the fullest, like the most fullest 64 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,800 expression of like their Trump ties, right? 65 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:04,600 This is like the full the first time that they've done like a 66 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,640 conference around the fact that they are like deeply embedded in 67 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:10,920 the administration. I mean, David Sachs is working 68 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:13,120 for them at this point. Like they've had conferences. 69 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,560 I don't know. If anything, I feel like some of 70 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,640 the like the sex appeal and freshness of it all is going 71 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:20,840 away. It's like they've done 72 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,040 conferences. Trump's there while the Epstein 73 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,400 files are dropping. It's like, it feels a little bit 74 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,240 like, I don't know, state TV to me where they're like on the 75 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,280 team setting it up. Did did they bring? 76 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,560 I assume Epstein did not come up at all on stage, right? 77 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,520 You know, Eric Epstein did not come up on stage. 78 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,040 And but their media figures on some level, like what media, 79 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,200 even conservative media figures, can't stop talking about Epstein 80 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,640 because it's such a good story. And so I think the fact that All 81 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,840 In would have a conference and not talk about like the biggest 82 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,400 elephant in the room. It we learned that day that the 83 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,160 attorney general had told Trump that he was in the Epstein files 84 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,680 and they don't bring it up. It's just that is the smoking 85 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,800 gun that all in is in no sense media. 86 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,760 But they're not not just not media. 87 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,800 They are not working on the behalf of their audience, right. 88 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,960 If you're working on the behalf of your audience, forget. 89 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:15,920 I don't even want to say I'm a journalist anymore. 90 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,240 You know, my whole thing has been like, I'm a creator that 91 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,519 wants to exceed expectations, but at least I know that I am 92 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:24,880 working for my audience and the readers. 93 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,840 And if they had an obvious question, I had someone up on 94 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:31,040 stage, I didn't answer it. They should make fun of us, you 95 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:36,000 know, and all in is is working for their subjects and not for 96 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,080 their listeners, whether their listeners want to acknowledge 97 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,840 that or not. And I think this event was sort 98 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:46,360 of the capstone of that sort of capture. 99 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,000 Well, I feel like they're listeners and their audience 100 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,000 and, you know, I feel like it's kind of merging into one, right? 101 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,360 Like if this is the culmination of, you know, all in post having 102 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,920 Trump on the podcast, they talked a lot about how, you 103 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,240 know, they saw the light after he was such a great guest on the 104 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,360 show to then, you know, be parts of the administration. 105 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,160 Well, Trump. Trump literally thanked even 106 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,120 Jason. Even as we know, Jason 107 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,280 Calacanis, I say even thank you, Jason. 108 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,200 All right, in in classic fashion, we couldn't hold off on 109 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,200 takes for long. So I've already given you a rant 110 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:22,640 without even laying the groundwork. 111 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,840 But Madeline, can you give it give us sort of a little bit of 112 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:27,880 the overview of the day. Yes. 113 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,920 So spearheaded by the all in guys, Trump was obviously the 114 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,040 draw. You did what the quick trip to 115 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,600 DC from New York, train there train back same day. 116 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,360 What was what was on the ground who talked? 117 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,800 Just give us sort of a couple bull points on what it was like. 118 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:44,160 Sure. It was definitely, I think 119 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,320 compared to past Hill and Valley forums, which I've covered much 120 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,560 more emphasis on government officials. 121 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,000 There were, you know, Chris Power from Hadrian who just 122 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,240 raised a big amount of money, gave a presentation on stage 123 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,880 about how they're going to, you know, build up AI factories. 124 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,000 And Jensen of course, was on stage with the all in guys 125 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,880 talking, you know, thanking President Trump for accelerating 126 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,640 AI and talking about all of the great jobs that AI build up is 127 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,760 going to create. However, most of the people on 128 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,840 stage were predominantly administration officials. 129 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,040 So it felt a lot more like here we are, it's DC, we're coming on 130 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,640 tech friendly media to talk about all the great stuff we are 131 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,400 doing for you, the tech audience. 132 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,920 And this was literally like an announcement, right? 133 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,080 I mean, they literally published winning the race America's AI 134 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,600 Action Plan, like right around this. 135 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,240 It was. The same day, about an hour 136 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,440 before the event kicked off. And Davis X is the AI czar 137 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,320 bringing in his in house media and basically like. 138 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,000 But that's just smart event planning. 139 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,720 That's just called synergistic thinking. 140 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:42,280 Democrats need to get this shit together. 141 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:45,440 Have friendly softball questions from in house media you know. 142 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,480 Oh, I just meant like having an announcement, you know, you want 143 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,720 news to break on the day of your conference, you get people 144 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,160 talking. I mean, good, good on them. 145 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,280 That's actually sounds like a very traditional media playbook. 146 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:56,960 And it seems to me like they're really in the pocket of 147 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,320 traditional media now. Yeah, what I heard Madeline was 148 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,680 saying that all the reporters were passed off to the balcony. 149 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:05,720 You couldn't even hear the toss A. 150 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:08,880 Member As a member of the New Media Madeline, how how are you 151 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,160 treated? As a member of the new media, I 152 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,160 felt like I should have been treated a little better since 153 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,520 we're, you know, not the lamestream media over here at 154 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,160 Newcomer I, the press area was a little bit separated off from 155 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,360 the main auditorium, up on a second level. 156 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,880 They didn't really want us coming down to the main level 157 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,400 to, you know, mingle with people unless we were in the lobby, you 158 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,360 know, grabbing coffee and stuff. So I do feel like the the media 159 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,680 was kind of in attendance, but not really participating in the 160 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,040 the same way as past events that I've attended. 161 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,400 You should have you should have like a flat, you know, like the 162 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,960 the press, you know, flak jackets that they get like when 163 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:42,880 they're embedded people. I feel like you could get a 164 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,160 separate one that says sub stack on it and they just treat you a 165 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:46,520 little different in these events. 166 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,760 I think I should have gotten special treatment because we're 167 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,200 a sub stack newsroom. I think we are the independent 168 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,480 media that they want to have covering this. 169 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,600 You know, we're, we're breaking the molds. 170 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,720 Sub stack needs to have his own advocacy org, you know, just 171 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,360 like there's like the White House Correspondents 172 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,760 Association. The sub stack should have sort 173 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,320 of a centralized like you can't treat our people like that. 174 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,120 But OK, I know it's Trump and like it's mostly optics and says 175 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,400 a bunch of insane shit. He talked about like maybe we 176 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,200 should break up NVIDIA. And then somebody explained why 177 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,080 that would be a terrible idea given Nvidia's like the heart of 178 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,960 everything we're doing. But so there was lots of insane 179 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,200 Trump shit and we can talk a little bit about like, you know, 180 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,040 his demeanor, but the substance, please, just what what? 181 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,480 Just just the substance, just quickly, what what actually 182 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,880 happened? Like what they wield all the 183 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,679 levers of power, Like all of them. 184 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:39,280 Like what? What are they doing? 185 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,640 Yeah. I mean, they had on stage the 186 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,200 Vice President and the President of the United States. 187 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,360 What are they doing? Like what is? 188 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,000 What are they? Doing not. 189 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,400 Saying like what is going to happen? 190 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,360 The key thing that is going to happen per the executive orders 191 00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:57,800 is that environmental regulation is going to be pulled back so 192 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,080 that this data center build up will be easier to do. 193 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,920 Fuck the environment. Build AI, get energy ready. 194 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:04,920 Let's go. Yeah. 195 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,080 It was very build, baby build, you know, instead of drill, baby 196 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:09,760 drill, there was build, baby build. 197 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,400 That was the vibe inside the room. 198 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,960 Clear regulation, clear cut regulation. 199 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,840 So AI can like dominate and we're going to have this energy 200 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,640 crisis. So we need to light every like 201 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,440 dead dinosaur that we got left on the planet. 202 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:25,040 Sure, the abundance guys are shedding a tear of joy in the 203 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:26,640 midst of all of that so we can find. 204 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,400 Some, yeah, it's pretty abundant. 205 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:30,080 We're going to have AI abundance. 206 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,600 Step 2, the second executive order really touched mostly on 207 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:39,000 around exporting AI to make sure that American AI can be 208 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,720 exported. So that's, you know, the plug to 209 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,800 Jensen. We're not going to totally clamp 210 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,880 you down with export controls. After all that China fear 211 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,520 mongering, it's like actually, after creating tariffs and 212 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,640 saying isolationism is the path to American success on AI, 213 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,320 somehow they've conned Trump into saying actually America's 214 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,520 AI succeeds if we can sell it everywhere. 215 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,840 So it's embedded even in China. We want NVIDIA chips in China 216 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,920 because otherwise it's going to be Huawei. 217 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,560 We are globalists and internationalists on AI and then 218 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:16,120 randomly on like manufacturing cars and any industry that 219 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,880 doesn't have a great lobbying firm where isolation is. 220 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,840 It makes zero sense. Oh, that's totally the policy. 221 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,280 Well, I was going to say too, I think what was really just, you 222 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,200 know, the tell of all of this was that during Trump's speech, 223 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,840 you know, he bragged about all of the tariffs, making jokes 224 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,080 like there's too many countries. I have to do deals with all 225 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,000 these countries and, you know, touted his recent Japan deal. 226 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,080 But then of course, with AI, it's like, cut it loose, let it 227 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,160 go because that's, you know, American soft power ruling the 228 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:44,920 world or else China AI will take over. 229 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,800 So I feel like there were the inconsistencies in the policy 230 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,160 really kind of popped off throughout the day. 231 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,120 Have you just paid a little bit of attention? 232 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,960 I obviously believe in some environmental regulation, but I 233 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:59,120 think clear cutting regulation to build AI is good. 234 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,720 I think for the if you buy into the like the Super growth 235 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,240 mindset that we need to do this in the China race, it certainly 236 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,920 is good. I do think that the extent that 237 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,440 they want to cut it is definitely, you know, no gloves 238 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,640 at all, just build drill. But we're going to be helping 239 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,720 China now. We're selling them NVIDIA chips. 240 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,320 Like, I don't think it's about like the war with China. 241 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,440 Like I don't buy it at all. But we're also beating them. 242 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:25,480 Sure. We're beating them. 243 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,920 We're giving them the tools to undercut us and steal. 244 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,960 Yeah, I want to cooperate with China, so I I have no problem 245 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:33,840 with it. Godspeed. 246 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,760 But the idea that it's going to help us beat China by giving 247 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,720 them the chips that they need to deliver the stuff doesn't make 248 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,880 sense to me. But also the export ban wasn't 249 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,360 working like the the the whole thing end up being they were 250 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,880 getting in there through like Indonesia and like various 251 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,520 Southeast Asian countries like you saw with DeepSeek that they 252 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,160 were plenty capable of building like competent high quality 253 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,960 models largely on chips that had been smuggled into the country. 254 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,440 So. All it was really doing was 255 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,840 hurting American chip manufacturers, which is why 256 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,920 Jensen was kind of pushing them to, you know, hey, don't, don't 257 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,080 lock this in this way. Can I ask quickly because I, I, 258 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,080 I saw the tweet, I didn't dig more into it. 259 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:12,880 Why did he want to break up NVIDIA? 260 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,280 What was the argument there? Why were they scary to him? 261 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:18,400 I might be misremembering, but it felt like it was like an 262 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,200 NVIDIA. Who are those guys? 263 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,400 What are they doing? No, they're American. 264 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:25,280 Asian guy that runs it, that's no good. 265 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:26,760 Break that thing up, but it's like. 266 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,960 You can't tell me that there wasn't at least an initial 267 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,120 thought by Trump that like they're a Chinese company. 268 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:33,320 Right. No, literally. 269 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,560 On stage. He more or less implied that in 270 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:39,400 his little NVIDIA riff he was doing in the speech. 271 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,480 Like, so there there's this AI action plan, but then there were 272 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,880 also executive orders about AI, the most disturbing of which to 273 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,720 me was this order that says if you're a government contractor, 274 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,320 you have to have unbiased AI. And they specifically talk about 275 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:02,360 DI and transgenderism. And it's just like, yeah, I 276 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,440 mean, the idea of unbiased is incoherent. 277 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,680 And then in the same executive order, you're basically saying 278 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:12,200 what you can't talk about. So it's like inserting bias. 279 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,760 I, I don't know, I find that deeply troubling. 280 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,400 The last thing I'll say on this, I, you know, one of my more 281 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,360 viral tweets, I said, you know, no atheists in a foxhole, no 282 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:25,160 libertarians in a bank run when David Sacks was like begging for 283 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:28,520 SVB to, to get a bailout. And now it's like, you know, 284 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,520 there are no, there are no free marketers in government. 285 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,480 It's like as soon as David Sachs touches the government, they're 286 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,200 putting out executive orders saying let's let's regulate AI 287 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,000 so that you can't explain transgenderism to people. 288 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,400 Well, it's always just the point of, you know, the free speech 289 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,760 for me and not for thee. We saw this with the social 290 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,680 media wars, right? Like this felt like kind of 291 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:52,280 social media Part 2 where Zuckerberg caved and, you know, 292 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,000 got rid of community notes and Meta and all of this stuff to, 293 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,720 you know, get these get close to Trump and buddy buddy with the 294 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,440 administration. And so by just declaring that 295 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,120 for AI companies to work with the government in any way, 296 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,720 especially with all these DoD contracts on the line, they have 297 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,120 to, you know, remove bias just like that just means that they 298 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,280 have to censor certain topics because the training data is 299 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:12,480 already in there. Like what do they want? 300 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,040 And of course, which AI company has seemed the most biased so 301 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,960 far? You're talking about the one 302 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,480 that has written into. It's like prompts that like. 303 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,000 What would Elon say on this topic? 304 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,800 Right, the one that literally talks in first person sometimes 305 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,880 as the owner and searches like what's the guy who owns me think 306 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,240 before I answer this. Well, I also love the idea of 307 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,440 like, you know, a contractor having to explain to whatever 308 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,960 the DoD or any other organization that's going to 309 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,480 sign a huge, you know, trying to get like a huge RFP for the 310 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,720 different language models. Like Sir, we have found the most 311 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,160 unbiased of all of the chat bots that are out there. 312 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,600 Side point, it is Mecca Hitler. So you you will have to work 313 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,240 through that. But yes, as we ran through it, 314 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,840 the most unbiased 1 happens to also give specific instructions 315 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:00,600 on how to attack Will Stancil in the night. 316 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,560 But it is the least woke. So that is the one we're going 317 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:04,960 to have to choose based on the EO. 318 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,440 Yeah, it is just the hypocrisy of, you know, bias just meaning 319 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,240 different from Trump's positions on issues like that is if we're 320 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,040 just classically going back to that, it's just the greatest 321 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,600 hits of that. Again, we're just putting that 322 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,240 in executive order. And I just, I'm curious to see 323 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,640 how companies respond to it because I mean, working with the 324 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,600 federal government has proven to be very lucrative for a lot of 325 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,040 these companies so far. So I don't know what's gonna 326 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,360 happen. Well, we, we, we also saw like 327 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,000 in Trump one like vendettas being used as a way to hand out 328 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,320 contracts or stop other companies from getting contracts 329 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,360 was like fairly standard procedure. 330 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,280 Like Amazon AWS lost their shit after the Pentagon gave a 331 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,960 contract to Azure and to Google over AWS because of, you know, 332 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,040 Trump's anger at Bezos and, and Amazon and the Washington Post. 333 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,320 And so, yeah, no, I'm just saying like there's a real 334 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,280 reason for these people to like, play up at, you know, Curry 335 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,080 favor and like be as sycophantic as possible to Trump because. 336 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,280 Oh my God, yeah. Didn't Jackson literally say 337 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,040 America's going to win an AI because of Trump or something? 338 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:12,560 I America's unique advantage that no country possibly have is 339 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,840 President Trump. There there are a lot of 340 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,800 compromises I wouldn't want to make as a public company CEO. 341 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,680 Like, I don't know, but like the Oh yeah, Trump, you're a genius. 342 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,680 Like everything through you. It's like it's such a low 343 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:32,080 hanging way to Curry favor that I can see why it's so tempting. 344 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,160 And Jensen smartly, you know, got his export controls 345 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,720 overturned, so it's a good play. His approval ratings and Tom, 346 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:38,960 you're making this point before the show. 347 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,160 They are bad, like, somehow, like, until we have the 348 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,480 midterms, I feel like the culture, you know, if this were 349 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,160 like a normal president with approval ratings this bad, 350 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,080 people would, like, start to not taking him seriously. 351 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,560 But I think it's because the Republicans would get primaried 352 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,720 anyway that they have to be so locked up. 353 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:56,840 I don't know. Yeah. 354 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:58,760 Tom, what's your observation on the. 355 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,120 I think. We've talked about this a couple 356 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,520 times on the show, like, you know, the bald faced sycophancy 357 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,280 of the tech, you know MAGA, right? 358 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,520 Whatever you want to call it toward Trump at one point seemed 359 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,200 fairly prescient, right? If you were, I don't want to 360 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:13,920 talk about Sean McGuire again, But if you were one of those 361 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,160 people that were backing Trump during the 2024 election, you 362 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,079 looked really smart, like you looked way ahead. 363 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,960 Well, I would say to this point, Tom, the all the Hill and Valley 364 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,800 Forum leaders who, you know, put on this summit in the 1st place 365 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,080 with Jacob Helberg, you know, kind of spearheading this with 366 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,640 Delia and and Christian Garrett, they have, you know, hold the 367 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,760 anchors of powers in some way. And you know Helberg is going to 368 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,400 be appointed in the administration. 369 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,160 Republicans, if you're willing to be the one smart person 370 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,920 around a Republican, you could like, fucking ascend to the top 371 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,880 immediately. It's like it's a vacuum. 372 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,600 It's the easiest hack. It's like so many fucking 373 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,160 lawyers do that. But that's under the assumption 374 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,320 that being smart helps you as a Republican, which I don't really 375 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,320 think it does. I mean, but they always want. 376 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,280 I don't think to dominate. I mean, you see. 377 00:17:56,360 --> 00:18:00,480 Yeah, you can. I think they can tell you the 378 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,840 story that being quote UN quote smart doesn't necessarily make 379 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,120 you the like the popular guy or the most powerful person in the 380 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:07,680 party. But you know, like Sam Altman is 381 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,120 an interesting case with that because he lifelong Democrat, 382 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,120 you know, is as public about hating Trump as almost anyone in 383 00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:16,880 tech after he gets elected. I mean, he makes as a source 384 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,840 told me like not too long ago, he made a determination like 385 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,720 midway through the campaign, 24 Trump's going to win. 386 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,240 I need to start getting closer to him and he starts doing that 387 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,640 and then he streets out, you know, Oh, I misunderstood you, 388 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,320 Trump. Everything I thought, you know, 389 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,440 was, you know, intermediated by a biased media and all this 390 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,680 bullshit that everyone has to say in order to make themselves 391 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,640 feel, you know, close to Trump. So but that all seemed very 392 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:39,760 smart. And now, like, I was talking 393 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,760 about 37% approval ratings as low as it's ever been for him. 394 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,200 It's not as low as it got during Trump won, but like, he is not a 395 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,680 popular president. And and, and so when you see, 396 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,840 and it's not, I don't know if it's going to get better or not, 397 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,880 but it's unlikely to turn around in a major way. 398 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,160 And so when you see the same rhetoric from the tech crowd 399 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,880 supporting him, like Jensen saying, you know, we couldn't 400 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:01,840 have done without you, Trump, the big advantage that we have 401 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,080 is that you, we have Trump and no one else does. 402 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,600 It's so blatant as to what's going on here. 403 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:08,080 You're not tapping into a zeitgeist. 404 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,960 You're just trying to get the best possible deal for your 405 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,520 company. You're trying to line your 406 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,000 pockets. And that's fine. 407 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,560 That's business. It's it's gone like that. 408 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,520 Forever they want to get rich, they want the companies to do 409 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,560 well and that that's their job. But I, I do think they also want 410 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,560 to see, they think AI is like a bigger force than honestly, like 411 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,120 the, the US government and like the US government has a lot of 412 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:29,240 power. But it's like we need to suck up 413 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,120 the Trump and he's going to like clear cut the government and say 414 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:35,600 we can do whatever we want to power the data centers. 415 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,040 We need to build God like that's that's what they want. 416 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,600 And Eric, to your point, I, I think that is what they want. 417 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,360 And I feel like they've really got it. 418 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:47,080 Like, you know, I was, you know, commenting like all this point 419 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,800 about, you know, Trump being low energy and like, you know, the 420 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,760 Epstein story breaking while he's on stage, Like none of that 421 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,000 seems to really matter. They got the order, you know, 422 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,760 like it's, it's been the the path has been cleared. 423 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,800 It will matter electorally, but like they're willing to just 424 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,520 like, well, yeah, we won't talk about any of that. 425 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,600 Just like we'll we'll say you're awesome. 426 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,440 Like give us our clear cutting and like. 427 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,440 Let's go forward. Right. 428 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,720 The action plan is already out. The orders are already signed 429 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,400 like you know they're good to go. 430 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,200 Yeah, and they don't really need a Congress to support any of 431 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,320 these things anyway, so they might as well build as quickly 432 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,680 as they can until Trump, you know, completely loses his 433 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,840 ability to do any of the things that they want. 434 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,160 Because I I guess you can always sign E OS. 435 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,360 No one's really going to stop you from that. 436 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:29,880 And I don't even know how. I mean, is it clear actually 437 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,520 does you're talking to people there like whether or not these 438 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,760 executive orders were going to do all that much. 439 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,840 I mean, there's a lot of posturing with these things. 440 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,040 You're not actually changing that many rules. 441 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:40,240 They're not signing things into law. 442 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,440 You're not getting rid of active restrictions. 443 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,640 I mean, you know, this, we're poking around like a theme of 444 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:50,640 this administration is like, who cares what appropriators said 445 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,800 this money was for? Like, we'll do whatever we want. 446 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,640 So there is a degree to which, if the administration is willing 447 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,360 to say they want something and they're willing to bend all the 448 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,760 rules about using money appropriated by Congress however 449 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,280 they want, this is a time where executive orders are more 450 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,800 powerful than ever if they can navigate the bureaucracy. 451 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,720 What stood out to you among the EOS that you think is going to 452 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,640 be the most important? Because I have some thoughts, 453 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,080 but I'm curious as you were there, like what what mattered 454 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:19,880 to you? What stood out to me, there's 455 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,960 something that stood out from, you know, us as reporters 456 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,960 standpoint that could shape the form of AI, which I do think 457 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,520 the, you know, removing government contracts, unless 458 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:33,360 your AI isn't woke or whatever point will have impacts on how 459 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,840 this AI forms in the future. But I think from the business 460 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,320 standpoint, you know, streamlining regulations and 461 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,960 gutting climate rules to, you know, do this massive build up I 462 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,840 think will be the most consequential for the AI 463 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,160 industry. What do you think, Tom? 464 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,600 Yeah, I sorry, just back on like the, you know, government 465 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,280 contracts for AI. We we've seen a bunch of the big 466 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,520 companies, the the big labs and model makers sign, you know, 467 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,040 multi $100 million deals with the government recently. 468 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,080 Like I saw XAI got a big contract, which is interesting. 469 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,360 Open AI got one as well. So we're like at the beginning 470 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:09,160 stages of like actual tangible contracts between these 471 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:10,680 companies and and the government. 472 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,200 I do want to say as a point, it does often get misreported that 473 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,440 like opening, I signed a $200 million contract with the DoD. 474 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,120 That's not quite right. They signed like a $5,000,000 475 00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:23,280 like basically exploratory contract with the potential of 476 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,400 it getting up to $200 million. So people should not report it 477 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,200 as like $200 million is going directly into open AI as like 478 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,600 some sort of government enterprise contract deal. 479 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,720 It's a little different than these things typically get 480 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,760 reported. But the one part that stuck out 481 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,680 to me, and again, I don't know how much this is going to matter 482 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,720 in the large scheme of things is the fact that, you know, and I 483 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,840 think Trump mentioned this in his speech, that AI model should 484 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,920 be given clearance to train on copyrighted materials. 485 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,960 And it's a huge issue right now that's playing out really 486 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,360 literally in the courts over, you know, the when all of these 487 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:02,000 models were built, you know, chat GPTS models, GPT 4, 488 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,400 whatever anthropics models, they basically ingested the entire 489 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,400 web and, you know, published materials in order to train on 490 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,520 these things. And as the New York Times is 491 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,320 currently suing right now, they New York Times, because it was 492 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,560 trained on their content, should be compensated for the 493 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,000 information that they created that was later used to create 494 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,840 these models, which are obviously now hyper competitive 495 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,840 with traffic to all of these new sites. 496 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,800 And I also saw there was, was it like a gal or was it like a Pew 497 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,880 poll or a Pew study today that showed that traffic has declined 498 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,080 substantially to a lot of new sites based on the AI overviews 499 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,960 that Google does. And so kind of like the doomsday 500 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,000 scenario that every news organization was thinking about 501 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,240 with the rise of AI and like summarization of articles may be 502 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,120 upon us because people are more willing to read an AI summary of 503 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:55,160 copyrighted material then then go to the article. 504 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,640 But I got super into this topic, like over the last couple days 505 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,120 and was talking to people about it. 506 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:05,120 Because if you talk to, you know, journalists or certainly 507 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,560 the lawyers who are representing The New York Times, they believe 508 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,000 like a grave injustice is being it's been done here right now 509 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,120 that that the fact that, you know, these models were trained 510 00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,920 on New York Times copyrighted materials, like fucked 511 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,840 everything up for everyone. And they deserve money for it. 512 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,160 And so far, the most of these lawsuits have lost like Mehta 513 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,360 recently just won, you know, a case against this. 514 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:29,800 And it's a really fascinating conversation and like discussion 515 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:35,040 about what does it mean to consume and create material and, 516 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,160 you know, the, the, the, the history of the copyright. 517 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,320 And, you know, like when Google created its algorithm for its 518 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,120 search engine, it was also ingesting the entirety of the 519 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:48,520 web, creating cached pages of, of, of the Internet and creating 520 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,480 some sort of content. If you want to call a search 521 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,360 result content on top of that, that had specific effects on the 522 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:57,920 websites. And we are seeing now basically 523 00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:01,800 again, this doomsday scenario play out where it is competitive 524 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,240 to a degree with the original content, whether or not they 525 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,440 were legally allowed to do it. And I mean, if we want to get 526 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,920 into a debate about it, I'm down to but like my stance as I spend 527 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,080 more time and it is like, yeah, I do believe they are legally 528 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,000 allowed to do it. And it and it comes down to this 529 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,960 question. And I think Trump kind of 530 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,120 touched on it, you know? Well, yeah, I was going to say 531 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:22,440 it. Can. 532 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:23,640 Can I say it? Yeah. 533 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,440 And when he was on stage, Trump kind of did a little when he 534 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,360 went off script, he did a little riff about this. 535 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,520 You can't be expected to have a successful AI program when every 536 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,640 single article, book, or anything else that you've read 537 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,200 or studied you're supposed to pay for, Gee, I read a book, I'm 538 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,240 supposed to pay somebody. And you know, we, we appreciate 539 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,480 that, but you just can't do it because it's not doable. 540 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,120 And if you're going to try and do that, you're not going to 541 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:50,840 have a successful program. I think most of the people in 542 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,360 the room know what I mean. When a person reads a book or an 543 00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,360 article, you've gained great knowledge. 544 00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:01,240 That does not mean that you're violating copyright laws or have 545 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,680 to make deals with every content provider. 546 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:08,040 And that's a big thing that you're working on right now. 547 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,520 I know, but you just can't do it. 548 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,640 China's not doing it. And if you're going to be 549 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,360 beating China, and right now we're leading China very 550 00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:17,120 substantially and AI very, very substantially. 551 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,560 And nobody's seen the the amount of work that's going to be 552 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:25,840 bursting upon the scene. But you have to be able to play 553 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,480 by the same set of rules. So when you have something, when 554 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:34,200 you read something and when it goes into this vast intelligence 555 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,240 machine, we'll call it, you cannot expect to every time, 556 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,080 every single time say, oh, let's pay this one that much. 557 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,040 Let's pay this one just doesn't work that way. 558 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,360 Of course you can't copy or plagiarize an article, but if 559 00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:53,000 you read an article and learn from it, we have to allow AI to 560 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,600 use that pool of knowledge without going through the 561 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,840 complexity of contract negotiations, of which there 562 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,280 would be thousands for every time we use AI. 563 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,400 He kind of touched on the point, you know, himself in a way that 564 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,560 I felt like was honestly kind of hard to go up against. 565 00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:14,720 How do paywalls play into this? Like is there? 566 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,560 Is there just how I don't actually know the particulars? 567 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,560 Like how much is their argument that they're the information was 568 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,960 behind a paywall? I think if you know this gets 569 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,360 into like the robot dot TXT construction of websites which 570 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,960 basically allows the robots to scan the pages. 571 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,520 I, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure stuff that's behind a paywall is 572 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,800 still probably scannable by by the robots and so that stuff 573 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,000 does like. The New York Times had set it up 574 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,760 so that it was scannable because they wanted search results. 575 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. The same way that it can get 576 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,800 scanned by, you know, the web crawler also allowed these 577 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,720 models to be able to ingest the content on these pages. 578 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,040 The way someone framed it to me, which I was really interested 579 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,240 in, was like, the core of the question is really, do robots 580 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,120 have the right to read? Like, are they allowed to go to 581 00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:05,080 these websites and read and learn things? 582 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,080 And is the thing that they created by reading it 583 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,600 competitive with it? Is it transformative or is it 584 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,400 derivative? If it's derivative, it's 585 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,600 competitive and it's in a violation of copyright. 586 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,320 If it's transformative, it's something new. 587 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:17,640 And I mean, these are the questions that are going to be 588 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,960 playing out probably in front of the Supreme Court. 589 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,280 But I should be allowed to say who can read read my stuff 590 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,440 right? And like if I have a paywall. 591 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,160 Would you be fine with your like newcomers stories not showing up 592 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,000 in a Google search because you don't want it to? 593 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,320 But why can't I draw a distinction and say I I'm OK 594 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,880 with Google and I'm not OK with you And like you're allowed to 595 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,240 do business with whoever you want. 596 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,640 Like I'm OK with businesses where they're they're trying to 597 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,280 link to me and get people to come to me and not OK with 598 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,120 businesses where they're trying to replace me and summarize me. 599 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,080 Like I don't know where to free market. 600 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,680 I can do business with who I want. 601 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,960 So so to me, I would sort of push more on this sort of like, 602 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:01,800 you know, should open AI have paid? 603 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,760 Yeah, paid to access the stories. 604 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,960 Well, people, you know, Anthropic did it in their own 605 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,720 way. You know, they bought literally 606 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,320 bought physical books and scanned them and then destroyed 607 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,000 the original material, which that seems like the nature of 608 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,640 the. Book, I mean a book, it's like, 609 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,240 yeah, you get it. You can do whatever you want. 610 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,280 You can, you know, consume it. Physical media you you have the 611 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:26,760 right to consume it once you own it. 612 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,680 I don't know how it's going to play out. 613 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,960 I mean, again, like every single lawsuit has has lost or or been 614 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,360 thrown out thus far. I think the New York Times 615 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,960 probably has the strongest 1 going right now just because 616 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,840 they're the New York Times. They probably have the best 617 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,240 lawyers to advocate for it. But I imagine this is going to 618 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,840 reach the Supreme Court. It like hurts my heart. 619 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:51,440 It's like a hard, like, on the one hand, you know, if AI is 620 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,400 going to succeed and AI is like clearly important, our models 621 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,040 need to be able to like scroll, you know, consume all this 622 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,120 information and like they're going to be of national 623 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,760 importance. And like China is clearly doing 624 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,560 the same. So just on a pragmatic level, 625 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:10,440 like clearly we need them to basically consume everything and 626 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,520 higher quality information. But I'm certainly sympathetic to 627 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,960 people who created all the valuable information saying, I, 628 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,800 I created this world, historically important thing. 629 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,280 Shouldn't I get money out of it? I do. 630 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:29,320 I do think a lot of the like the value in these AAI models, the 631 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,520 techniques, everybody's been able to copy the technique and 632 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,080 people who came up with the technique or some random 633 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,920 researcher, you know, a lot of the value in the models is the 634 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,520 actual underlying knowledge that's been accumulated by, you 635 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,120 know, a bunch of. Different companies. 636 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,840 My worry about this though is is that if it does get to a point 637 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,880 where you basically just have to compensate all the creators of 638 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,800 content to in order to use their material to create a model, 639 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,600 there are companies that can pay for it. 640 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,560 They're just giant tech companies and we're leading 641 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,120 towards a world where the only people that would be able to 642 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,520 build models are ones that have the 10s of billions of dollars 643 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,400 that you would maybe need to to pay off the creators to do it. 644 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,400 And that's fine. We're kind of already there 645 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,280 anyway, but it destroys the possibility of ever there, you 646 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,760 know, of open source models and, and I think obviously they're 647 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,800 not very big right now the open source community compared to the 648 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,920 proprietary's. But if you believe in that, and 649 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,520 I think a lot of people in the Internet world do have that as 650 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,520 their core belief that open source matters, this seems to 651 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,200 set an extremely high bar monetarily to build these sort 652 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,720 of things. And, and I think that's a bad 653 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,160 thing. Just to add on to that, in the 654 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,360 open AI action plan, you know that they were touting all day 655 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:43,160 yesterday, there was a provision around protecting open source 656 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,760 and a lot of founders that I spoke to said that that was a 657 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,280 really important win for little tech for them so that they could 658 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:50,680 continue operating. So. 659 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,240 Oh yeah, that that's a key thing. 660 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,680 I mean, honestly, in some of what Trump is doing is what he's 661 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,280 not doing, you know, it's like the Biden administration trying 662 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,600 to come up with rules and savior this a model this size we're 663 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,200 going to attract you. And now they're being expressly 664 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,880 pro open source. You know, there there was much 665 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,760 more it felt like in the bite administration, the anthropics 666 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,000 and opening eyes of the world. We're trying to sidle up to the 667 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,800 administration and say you can trust us part of the deep state 668 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,680 liberal machine. Don't trust the sort of Wild 669 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,600 West open source models. And clearly under Trump, it's 670 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:29,680 like, OK, open source is sort of that capitalistic, let everybody 671 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,240 compete spirit. And so that that's another part 672 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,080 of what they announced. Yeah. 673 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,840 So, so Eric, earlier you mentioned Dario's Modi, CEO, Co 674 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,760 founder of of Anthropic, also Cerebral Valley guest at one 675 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,560 point, all these things are and more on his LinkedIn, he 676 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,760 recently sent an internal memo to the staff at Anthropic saying 677 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,960 that they are planning to or in discussions to take some money 678 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,040 from the Middle East. Where was it specifically? 679 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,800 Was it was it Qatar or? Qatar definitely is one of the 680 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,560 major sources. I forget if you called out a 681 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,400 specific country. Yeah, yeah. 682 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,360 And, you know, it seemed like he was a little sheepish about the 683 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,520 whole thing, or at least defensively explaining it, 684 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,680 saying, listen, we did not intend to take money from the 685 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:13,840 middle. East, he literally says like, 686 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,000 you can't just have good people benefit from your success if you 687 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,080 want to be a big company. Yeah, yeah. 688 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:21,640 He's teaching us about the way the world works. 689 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,080 He basically gives us the Ned Betty speech in in from network 690 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,440 about how the world works and how you need to kind of accept, 691 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,960 you know, the, the, the primordial powers of of the 692 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,920 universe. It is like capitalism sort of at 693 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,720 its essence. You know, I like capitalism, but 694 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,720 there is a certain like, oh man, like our job is to do this. 695 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,440 You look at the trade off. You know, we're gonna we need to 696 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:44,960 raise money. Money is money. 697 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,240 Like I, I'm. I mean, this is just one of many 698 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,800 compromises that Dario has had to make as the CEO of Anthropic. 699 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,720 And if you remember the history of this company, he broke off 700 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,000 from Open AI because he was pissed off about taking money 701 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,960 from Microsoft and it kind of polluting this effective 702 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,760 altruist mission of, of the original company and, and the 703 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,040 nonprofit. And then he goes off and lo and 704 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,000 behold, there's a shit load of money that can be made. 705 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,520 And also it cost a lot of money to make these models. 706 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,920 And, you know, he goes off and raises as much as almost any 707 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,400 other company other than Open AI and now realizes that, like, 708 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,719 when you need to keep raising this level of money, there's 709 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,520 really only one place you can do it, and that's the Middle East. 710 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,360 And so the guy is like pretty experienced at compromises. 711 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,360 And it's funny that he's even like, trying to, you know, 712 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,480 explain it away when it's like. I mean, I don't have any 713 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,480 objection to him taking money in the Middle East. 714 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,800 I think the sort of capitulation is interesting to interrogate. 715 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:44,440 To me, it's interesting right now, just like thinking about 716 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:49,159 Trump's executive order, right? If we are counting on companies 717 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,960 to have backbone and say, I guess we won't sell the 718 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,560 government, we're going to have to sell out our values on, you 719 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,400 know, thinking about what the results the model produces. 720 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,960 This is not a sign that the the companies will keep their 721 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,240 backbone, right? They're like, well, our job is 722 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,720 to chase the almighty dollar. And yeah, the government is an 723 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:12,400 important contractor and this is a small capitulation about a 724 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,680 topic we don't that is not central the model like whatever 725 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,720 the money sort of swamps the principle. 726 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:21,880 And so I, I do think, you know, it's the classic like you give 727 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,120 up one principle and slowly you find yourself giving them all 728 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,720 up. And I don't think this is 729 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:32,800 necessarily the line that anthropic needs to hold on to. 730 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,560 And I still generally trust them as a moral decision maker. 731 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,680 But you know it. It's small capitulations on the 732 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,040 way to to giving up your morality. 733 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,640 It feels like that was kind of the long arc of open AI, right? 734 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,600 Like, you know, as the an AI that is benevolent to mankind. 735 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,960 And then, you know, there were moral conflicts between this, 736 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,040 but. Open AI was always run by one of 737 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,000 the most power hungry men alive, so I don't know that that's less 738 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,000 surprise. I they yes, they became they 739 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,880 started a non profit. But you know, Sam was always 740 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,880 extremely ambitious. That's that's sort of the that's 741 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:10,640 line of open AI. That's very fair. 742 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,440 That's a good point. But all this just to say, I'm, 743 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,440 I'm saying even the effect of altruist AI company goes the way 744 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,120 of capitalist enterprise, so. Yeah. 745 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,800 And listen, like if there are going to be paying customers 746 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,800 that want to buy the ability to make biological weapons with 747 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,240 your AI, do you want to win or not like? 748 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:35,320 They probably pay really well. Yeah, like it's and that always 749 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:36,680 is the thing. By the way, I've noticed that 750 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,480 there's like fears about the usage of of of large language 751 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,400 models to make bio weapons. And, you know, to date, Dario 752 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,840 remains against using this technology to do that. 753 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,200 But listen, we make one compromise. 754 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:50,560 You make a lot of compromises. Well. 755 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,800 I was going to say there's always that fear on the bio 756 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,880 weapons, but the the qualms around other weapons and, you 757 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:57,520 know, partnering with the Defense Department, those are 758 00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,680 gone. So yeah, it's just the bio 759 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,480 weapons. I'm interested in like, you 760 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:09,080 know, the value of a corporate morals and and strategy as to 761 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:10,680 you know, like, is it about recruitment? 762 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,880 Is it about winning over business or is it about just 763 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,560 sleeping at night? Well, Anthropic has always had 764 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,920 this position that on AI safety they would create a race to the 765 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,280 top. And you could argue that there's 766 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,160 some truth to this. Like the idea was we'll have 767 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:31,240 scruples and therefore engineers with scruples will come here and 768 00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:35,840 that will create pressure on other companies to, to have 769 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,720 scruples themselves. And I, I do think we've seen way 770 00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:42,480 fewer defections from Anthropic than we've seen at Open AI. 771 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,680 On the other hand, you know, I don't think, Mike, I don't think 772 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,200 Meta is shouting about its scruples. 773 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,680 It's shouting about the power of the American dollar. 774 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,160 And so I don't know that Anthropic's race to the top is 775 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,280 necessarily trickling out to the rest of the AI industry. 776 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,560 But I do think it's had this sort of view that having sort of 777 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,600 principles about we're really going to test these models, 778 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,520 we're going to have robust safety, would help it win 779 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,840 because it would attract, you know, these AI engineers are 780 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,480 getting paid more money than they could ever use. 781 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,840 So to some degree, they are the type of people that will decide 782 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,600 where they work based on other things besides just money. 783 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,800 And you know, having sort of principles is one of them. 784 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,800 I mean, that's the missionary versus mercenary, uh, breakdown. 785 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,120 And it was funny for Sam to be the one that kind of put that 786 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,040 into, you know, the conversation and into the discourse. 787 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,000 I mean, I he's a missionary, but it feels so ambitious, you know, 788 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,520 it's like, it's like I want to be the God king of, you know, 789 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,560 AI. Well, if you're if you're a 790 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,360 missionary surrounded by mercenaries too, like you can, 791 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,080 you know, I don't know how much longer that's going to last for 792 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,280 you if it's really ultimately A mercenary world about attracting 793 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,840 talent. And I think everyone does really 794 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,560 have a number, whatever. I don't want to go deep into 795 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,120 like the talent wars again, but. I mean, you've talked to some of 796 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:00,800 these people. Yeah. 797 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,320 Well, I think they they are they everyone has a number. 798 00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:08,720 Yeah, I don't understand the psychology of the person who's 799 00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:14,440 like, I make $10 million in four years, Like now I need to make 800 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:18,360 75 or whatever. I guess I Yeah, that that person 801 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:19,840 is distant from me. What? 802 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,320 What is the thing that they want? 803 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,920 Well, I think it's just the human impulse of like, I make 804 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,000 $10 million and this guy who's as talented as I am, or maybe 805 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,400 even less talented I am, is making 75,000,000. 806 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,840 Like, fuck you. Like, why do you get a third 807 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:33,680 house? Like that just doesn't that 808 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,600 doesn't sit well with me. So I'm going to like if that 809 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,960 that fucking money's out there, I would be stupid not to take. 810 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:40,840 I think that's a much more powerful. 811 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,920 Argument and, you know, you start looking at all the 812 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,520 different like marble countertops that you could get 813 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,360 and you're like, well, you know, it adds up, you know. 814 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:49,840 There's always a place to spend the money. 815 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,440 That's never the issue. All right? 816 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,040 Anyway, good luck, Dario, with that Middle East money. 817 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,000 We'll, we'll, we'll be watching. For it, they still invest, you 818 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,400 know, like they they read this memo where they're like, yeah, 819 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,840 it's distasteful, but we'll do it. 820 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,680 Right, we're about to take. Money from some of the most 821 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,480 disgusting. People in the world. 822 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,440 This is going to be the worst of both worlds. 823 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,040 You know, they they make the moral capitulation, then they 824 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,640 don't get the money because they stuck their nose up at it. 825 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,480 Yeah, well, capitalism runs both ways too. 826 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,960 Like they they want to invest in these things because they want 827 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,320 to make money as well. So you're right. 828 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,680 Yeah. Like they're not just. 829 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:27,880 All. Right, that that about does it 830 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,440 for us this week. Thanks so much for listening and 831 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,520 we will catch you back here next week. 832 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,800 Subscribe to newcomer.co and we'll see you next week.