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Welcome, thanks for joining us 
on dead cat. 

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We're here with Mike Isaac. 
My former is day colleague at 

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the New York Times. 
I ran away to Washington. 

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D.c. he stayed in San Francisco 
like the smart person. 

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He is, then he went on to write 
a book about Poober which is now

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going to be a television series 
premiering on Showtime quite 

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Soon, Mike will give us more 
details and he just wrote a 

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great story about Spotify. 
So there's a lot to talk to Mike

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about today and Mike. 
Thanks for being here. 

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Thank you for having me t - how 
many days till the premiere? 

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Mike. 
It is February 27th. 

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Sunday night on Showtime is 
coming up. 

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So, like, if it comes out on 
Tuesday, probably like really 

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close five days, have you have 
you watched it yet? 

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So, I just watched episodes last
night. 

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Well, I know, like, I had It's 
funny because I have had. 

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So, this whole experience has 
been wild. 

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Like, I've never done anything 
like this at all, but like, 

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they've been when I first signed
this whole thing, my publisher 

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was like, don't even think that 
it's going to get made all this 

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shit like options get bought all
the time and nothing happens. 

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So I went in with very low 
expectations but they've been 

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Brian David and Beth the show 
Runners. 

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Have been super cool and like 
involves me a lot and stuff. 

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So I've had access to what are 
called All the dailies like The 

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Daily Show reels that they shoot
or whatever, and I can sort of 

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watch that, but I am just 
they're starting to send out 

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screeners actually. 
We're probably gonna bug you 

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guys soon because they're 
starting to send out screeners 

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to folks who might want to watch
them. 

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And Eric, I was going to email 
you great. 

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Yeah if you want to see it. 
So yeah of course I did watch 

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it. 
Why did you push did you push 

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back anything in production? 
Sort of factually or truth East 

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- or were you pretty chick 
definitely? 

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Yeah. 
Yeah, I think you can like I 

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think there are definitely 
people who are like this is so 

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stupid. 
I don't know. 

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I was My role was like, fact 
guy, basically, like I think 

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which was appropriate for me and
my day job or whatever as a 

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journalist. 
So I was like, this is what 

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happened. 
You guys obviously are creative 

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types can do whatever you want, 
but I can. 

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And so they would go to me for 
like, yeah. 

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Like, what is Larry Page like or
what is, or what did you know? 

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I know which is a whole other. 
How much time do you have? 

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Exactly. 
Oh my God, I watch the Larry 

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Page episode. 
It's so So it's going to be role

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of a lifetime. 
I mean, it's so good. 

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You know, who's lying? 
It's really. 

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It's fascinating. 
It's do you remember the guy on 

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Mad Men Who Went Crazy? 
The like what is your offer? 

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Yes. 
Yes against me. 

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Yes, /. 
Yes, that really? 

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Where he is so good. 
I can't. 

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It was his nipple by the way 
that he co-hosts Was it really 

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big? 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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Van. 
Gogh. 

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Who come? 
Right. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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All artists though he was also 
in Silicon Valley to he's really

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cut out a niche for himself. 
Well, the lawyer is yep. 

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Yeah, forgot about that. 
That's really interesting. 

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Well, like these guys Brian and 
David the guys who do billions 

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just kind of weirdly know 
everyone in like I always sort 

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of run into folks, not even in 
Hollywood whatever. 

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Like in techland who are like, 
Oh yeah, I've known Brian for 

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whatever. 
His father was a music industry 

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exec so they the cameos are it's
I'm just super I was really 

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worried. 
I was like I don't know if this 

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is going to be good. 
I hope people like it, you know.

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And it's the cast is amazing. 
I mean yeah it's it's just 

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they've been able to get so many
great people. 

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Have you interacted with the 
cast at all as part of this? 

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Yeah, I got to go down to the 
set in La. 

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It was actually good timing 
because it was right between 

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When we all got vaccinated and 
before like Delta Omicron my 

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fucked everything up. 
And so I got to go and like hang

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out on this the studio lot for a
few days and got to meet Joseph 

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Gordon-Levitt and Kyle Chandler.
They're both like it was really 

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like everyone. 
I guess I have to be nice to me,

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but they were actually regularly
really nice people and very 

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sharp like, super curious. 
Joe is like super interested and

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curious about the tech industry 
and in ways that like, I just 

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got, he's got a company, he's 
got like a digital media company

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and yeah, I run into him from 
time to time at things like he 

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definitely really circuit. 
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I 

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ran into him early days like 
when I lived in La was like 

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bumming around in Hollywood. 
That's cool. 

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That's a different story. 
Who are you inspiring actor, 

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Tom. 
Am I an inspiring actor for him 

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and a aspiring. 
And I wasn't that much bumming 

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around. 
No, I was just sitting in. 

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I was I was an assistant on the 
movie, g.i. 

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Joe, the Rise of Cobra. 
I was an assistant to the 

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producer and I came in for the 
last three weeks and I probably 

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was there for the worst part of 
the movie as far as Joe is 

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concerned because you know what 
ADR is and movies like when they

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have to. 
Yeah they like going after a 

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movie is It and like when they 
want to have the censored 

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version of it, they have the 
actors go into a booth and 

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instead of them saying like a 
shit, you know it's like Joseph 

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Gordon-Levitt being like shoot 
yeah really them doing like 30 

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takes of this or like alternate 
endings and all this other 

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stuff. 
They just recording the sound 

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booth so they can tweak the 
movie if they need to at the 

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end. 
And so, I was there for that. 

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I would just sitting in the 
sound booth, just doing nothing.

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Which is what most people in 
Hollywood do. 

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As you probably saw in South, 
you were like dream. 

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Why do people not do anything 
here? 

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They just sit down and watch 
everyone. 

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Else do things. 
There's so many folks had just 

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sort of Milling around, I guess 
doing something or like they 

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have one very specific job that 
I'm not sure what it is. 

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But yeah, and if they don't do 
it, they're fired. 

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But otherwise they have nothing 
to do. 

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But anyways, I was just sitting 
there. 

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I really had nothing to do but 
but he was there with the 

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director. 
Wasn't there to like coach him 

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through his leg? 
Shoot, darn crap. 

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And he got super pissed about 
this. 

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He was like, why is no one 
directing me? 

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And so he walks keep this is 
Joseph. 

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
And so he walked out of the 

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session. 
He was so pissed. 

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God, that's he stormed out but 
as he was walking out, he looked

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over at me and he was like, I'm 
sorry you had to see that. 

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Oh my God, I love it. 
He was like just self-conscious 

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enough to understand. 
Yeah. 

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And so then, I've gone better. 
Right? 

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Right. 
So, that's that's what makes 

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these people great mediocre 
actors and then it so like 

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flash-forward, like six years or
seven years later. 

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Something I'm at web Summit in 
Lisbon and he's there to 

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promote. 
Boat hit record which is like 

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his digital media company. 
Yeah. 

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And I randomly I shared a cab 
with him and his like people on 

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the way to it and it would have 
been a great full circle moment 

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for me to have like told him 
like oh yeah you remember that 

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time but he wouldn't. 
Hopefully not the type 

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screaming. 
Shoot darn. 

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Yeah, but Joe is as we're 
calling him. 

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I've never met the man, he goes.
My Joey Joey he's playing Travis

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right calendar. 
Great. 

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What a casting what? 
What do you think he pulled sort

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of most truthfully from from 
Travis, as you know? 

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Yeah, I mean, you know, I think 
probably all of us have met 

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Travis at some point over the 
years, maybe. 

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Yeah. 
I think sometimes. 

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Yeah. 
Katie, you know, yeah. 

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Yes. 
I haven't. 

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Sorry. 
I met him. 

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Yes. 
So like you know how intense the

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guy is? 
Unlike just sort of every level.

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Just very I guess the thing that
That that I was excited about is

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like this is very casting 
against type for Joe, I would 

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say like, you know, aside from 
maybe GI Joe, although I did not

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see that movie he's, you know, 
you know him as like five 

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minutes or summer. 
Yeah. 

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Right. 
Like just very sort of and he's 

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just that's not him in the show 
at all you know, like obviously 

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Travis is not going to be 
starring in 500 Days of slavery.

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That was helpful. 
Not a beta. 

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The summer, that's the thing he 
would start. 

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But I'm sure like if you're 
directing Joe in this and the 

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direction is like, you got to be
intense, dude. 

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Like actors like that. 
Like that's something they can 

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dig into the Chimes. 
I know nerdy though. 

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He's not just yes. 
And he captures that sort of? 

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Yeah, I think I think they I 
mean a lot of they use really 

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technical language, like I 
appreciate it in the script, 

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they incorporate pretty 
technical language and they have

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fun with it. 
They you know, Have to take 

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Liberties, just for storytelling
and like, like, you can't. 

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I think any Tech movie that 
didn't do that would be very 

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boring and hard to watch. 
So, like, I think they sort of 

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explain these Concepts that are 
pretty sophisticated in ways 

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that the audience can kind of 
digest, which I think is good. 

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And then also, like assumes that
the audience is intelligent 

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enough to sort of grasp onto 
these things. 

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But he's definitely, he's got 
the, like, sort of rapid-fire 

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thinking. 
Down like intensity. 

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But also knows how to geek out 
on on things. 

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Like you said, like, he's not an
obvious nerd. 

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I guess is what you would say. 
If you just see his sort of 

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public Persona, you don't 
necessarily think nerd, but I 

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think that's totally right. 
And so, I think he think he 

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really gets that and I don't 
know. 

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He's is he the villain? 
I mean, it's sort of, it's sort 

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of like, in the book, like what 
is villain, who's the villain of

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this story, right? 
He's like the protagonist / 

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antagonist, right? 
And Mike similar with Kyle 

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Chandler as girly, he's like 
you, like you, there's a version

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of you rooting for him, but at 
the same time, like he's also 

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like a pain in the ass of 
Travis, right? 

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You know, or like someone that's
just sort of at least in you 

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know the way they portrayed in 
the show they're just sort of of

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these characters who are close 
and then are driven apart and 

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then ultimately comeback against
each other. 

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So I think it's I thought which 
was what was really cool about 

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it. 
Is they kind of did the same 

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thing that I try to do in the 
book which is like we don't have

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a clear, clear hero. 
You know. 

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And you don't want to just 
totally one dimensional eyes 

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Travis because he's rounded 
flawed person. 

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I guess, you know, and I think I
do like Joe in the show. 

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Honestly, I think that people 
did, like Travis in real life 

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and that was one of the things 
that was perplexing, perhaps in 

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the media representation of 
Travis, so many stories about 

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boober, especially, that was it 
2017? 

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Got a pretty negative and the 
News was - the facts were -. 

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So as a reporter, you couldn't 
really capture the fact that he 

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is a fun and interesting and 
weird person. 

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And that is actually part. 
Yeah. 

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And that's part of who he is. 
And is why here? 

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One of the other ways, that a 
given moment, you know, but 

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that's why he could be the 
person he was Like you can't, 

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you can't do some of the things 
that we reported about, and have

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people still come back for more,
if you are not at least 

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charismatic in some way. 
It's interesting talking to 

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people at Hoover now, which I 
think of the people here. 

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I'm the only one who actually. 
Yeah, still over sure this 

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Market, 
News to be had about them. 

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But but it is interesting to 
talk to, you know, the class of 

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people that came up under 
Travis, the ones who transition 

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into the darker regime, the ones
who only knew Uber under dhara 

228
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,500
and they have such conflicted. 
You know, the first two groups 

229
00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:08,200
have such conflicted feelings 
about Travis because in one 

230
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,100
sense, you know, if they're the 
ones complaining about dhara for

231
00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:13,600
all the reasons that, you know, 
you could imagine you would 

232
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,000
think like oh so Travis was 
better or you you must have been

233
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,500
a Travis Acolyte and they're 
like, Hey listen I'm no Travis 

234
00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:21,700
Defender, you know he caused me.
Plenty of me misery or This was 

235
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really tough under him. 
I got these are the people who 

236
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make the vibe shift, the people 
who are not entered the 

237
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,000
creepiest behind bars, right? 
Right. 

238
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,000
Yeah. 
I don't know whether it's 

239
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,600
actually lie, but I think like 
that sort of complexity that 

240
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,600
you're describing about like is 
he a good? 

241
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,500
Is he bad? 
Is he both, you know, is the 

242
00:12:41,500 --> 00:12:43,400
same thing that you were 
employers seemed like they were 

243
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,900
constantly wrestling with, you 
know, even though he made them 

244
00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:49,000
fabulously wealthy and, you 
know, was the best time of their

245
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,300
lives and they were taken over 
the world and all that. 

246
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,500
Crazy shit that I'm sure is 
going to drive the drama the 

247
00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:56,500
show, they're still upset, 
they're still like torn up about

248
00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:58,100
it. 
They're still very conflicted. 

249
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I totally I think conflicted is 
exactly right I've never really 

250
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,900
I mean there are folks who 
they're folks who take stances 

251
00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:09,400
but I think people are take like
unilateral stances, but I think 

252
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:14,600
a lot of the folks who have 
straddled certain eras or or 

253
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,300
recognized eventually like 
they're definitely Travis people

254
00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:22,100
who will just like be like yeah 
Travis ride or die but I think a

255
00:13:22,108 --> 00:13:25,500
lot of the folks who were more 
self-aware feel really 

256
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:28,200
conflicted about the guy and to 
this day, even some of the 

257
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,900
people who were closest to him, 
still have really sort of 

258
00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:37,200
strange even And relationships, 
you know, and like I don't know.

259
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,400
I don't know if that ever 
changes with him, are there a 

260
00:13:39,408 --> 00:13:44,900
lot of composite characters or 
what sort of, who are the main 

261
00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:49,000
from the real fall of Travis. 
Like, I mean, Benchmark world, 

262
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,200
like, Matt Kohler and Peter 
Fenton were cast right or what? 

263
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,600
Yep, just give us, you know, 
this is sort of a real Silicon 

264
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,100
Valley audience like who's yeah.
It was really in it and who's 

265
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:02,200
sort of like honey how do you 
prepare to play Peter Fenton? 

266
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,100
By the way? 
Like what's with the research? 

267
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,600
Yeah. 
Well, I don't like a whole, 

268
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,300
there's like there's a press 
person but what like Jill, Hazel

269
00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:14,700
Baker, Rachel Whetstone, and 
back home in her Birds until 

270
00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:17,500
like one sort of person. 
Or what's that about? 

271
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:29,000
What if you're passing Peter 
Fenton, you got to have a jewel 

272
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,600
Heiser pecker and it Rachel, I 
think they. 

273
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,300
So there are composite Folks, I 
don't give away too much but 

274
00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:41,000
like there are again for like, 
storytelling purposes, I think 

275
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:46,700
you have to sort of merge 
certain people into like one 

276
00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:49,300
person to represent. 
I'm the person who comes and 

277
00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:54,000
talks to you about ex issue that
we have 4X engineering thing 

278
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,000
that we do or working on like 
how they get around apples. 

279
00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:02,600
You know, detection stuff on how
they were sort of duping Apple 

280
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,300
for a while and like so, there 
is definitely. 

281
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,100
Finally some folks who, or, or 
like, there's this character 

282
00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:13,200
called Hendricks, who is like 
the security type, dude, who's 

283
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,800
kind of stands in, for someone 
who might have done the Ripley 

284
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,900
stuff that you guys reported on 
and like, or the, or great ball 

285
00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:24,800
or like, like people who kind of
represent different parts of 

286
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,400
what Uber was doing in different
parts of its existence. 

287
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:33,700
And so I think that I think, I 
think it works because like, 

288
00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:36,900
again, you don't need to get 
every sort of detail in terms of

289
00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:40,100
who is involved in how, but I 
think they sort of get it across

290
00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:42,300
in a way that. 
And that's the other thing like 

291
00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:46,700
you and I are all of us here. 
Kind of know how to or when we 

292
00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:49,000
when we, when you're watching 
it, you're going to be like, oh,

293
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,700
ha ha, you know, I get that or I
know what really happened there,

294
00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:53,700
right? 
But like getting like normal 

295
00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:57,000
people to like digest and 
understand Usher, the shows not 

296
00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,600
terrific if the show is built 
for us, that would be it, it's 

297
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:13,400
right now. 
They do a lot of those Concepts 

298
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:17,200
into things and then they, they 
had like, David Drummond is a 

299
00:16:17,208 --> 00:16:22,100
character in the show or 
languages thing it's 777s. 

300
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,900
I mean, it feels, I mean, it is 
going to be the fun of watching 

301
00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:29,900
the show but a lot of the drama 
sort of in the book and just 

302
00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:33,600
there was a was, like, sort of 
Board stuff but then I'll 

303
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,800
obviously all the scandals are, 
you know, engineering sort of 

304
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,700
driven. 
So I'm interested to see just 

305
00:16:41,100 --> 00:16:44,900
how they, how they sort of cover
all that ground or like, is it a

306
00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:47,700
try to cover it all or they try 
to mostly anyway, you don't have

307
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:49,700
to spoil but just watch the 
show. 

308
00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:59,200
I think they do a good job of I 
mean, it's funny because all of 

309
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:06,200
us lived through 2017, but a lot
of 2017 was retroactively 

310
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,599
digging up all the shit that 
happened in the past, right? 

311
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:15,200
So a lot of a drama for us was 
like later but I think that you 

312
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,500
can cover it in a way where it's
built into the arc over time, 

313
00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:21,000
right. 
And so I think they do a good 

314
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,800
job of doing that. 
I think they also they wanted to

315
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,600
tease out the Travis. 
This bill divide more. 

316
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,200
And so, I mean a lot of this is 
just sort of like how do you 

317
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,500
tell how do you do this right 
for the screen? 

318
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:38,500
And it's a lot of like character
arcs. 

319
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:42,400
And like what are these 
characters need to do over time?

320
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,300
They need to be antagonists and 
sort of like funding and like a 

321
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:49,400
relationship that builds and 
changes and then ultimately 

322
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,500
dissolves as we know from 
reality. 

323
00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:58,400
So like so I think that's where 
the creative Sort of dramatic 

324
00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:04,600
storytelling part comes into it.
So even if it's not, this is 

325
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,200
exactly what we know how it 
happened and when it happened I 

326
00:18:07,208 --> 00:18:12,000
think they sort of use that in 
the Arc of like okay rise and 

327
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,400
fall over seven episodes. 
Make it work like that so yeah 

328
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,200
this is but was there a was 
there a specific thing? 

329
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,200
You just drew a heart. 
You were like you need to get 

330
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,100
this fact right or you need. 
Was there a thing where you I'm 

331
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:26,600
translating the book to the show
that stands out to you or that 

332
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,700
was like a Big issue. 
I know. 

333
00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:29,900
I don't know. 
It's a good. 

334
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:32,700
I'm trying to think if there was
a moment. 

335
00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:35,700
So the fun one. 
Cool thing was that I was there 

336
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:42,600
were these we did two writers 
rooms in each room was so what a

337
00:18:42,608 --> 00:18:45,500
room is is like they get all the
writers on the show, the show 

338
00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:49,400
Runners, and then you have like 
writers for each episode. 

339
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,900
So like a different writer will 
do, right? 

340
00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:53,900
One episode. 
So we had like six or seven 

341
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:57,700
people and then the show runners
go back over the script and Add 

342
00:18:57,700 --> 00:18:59,500
their stuff, and like their 
dialogue. 

343
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:01,400
They want and, like, ask for 
this and that. 

344
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:07,100
And so, so that this group of 
people convened and they wanted 

345
00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:09,400
me to come in. 
So I came into and I did it, and

346
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:14,600
it was for five days a week, 
like, two hours every morning. 

347
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,500
This is all before my job, my 
actual job, and then for 10 

348
00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:21,900
weeks. 
So it was really intense. 

349
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:25,100
Well, just sort of like, yeah, 
it's a lot and then we did that 

350
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:27,100
twice. 
So there was a 10-week stretch 

351
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,500
CH very early on in the pandemic
and we all did this over zoom. 

352
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,400
And then there was another ten 
weeks stretch later on, as they 

353
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,500
were very internalized, this 
trip. 

354
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,200
Yeah, it was I. 
So, and this is the sort of 

355
00:19:42,300 --> 00:19:44,500
Protection. 
I think I have just in terms of 

356
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:47,400
like, real world stuff. 
I was very, I was very much 

357
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,000
present and got to be there for 
a lot of it, but also was the 

358
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,600
sort of like, here's how it 
went, down person like Ike. 

359
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,700
And there's a way of doing that 
where I could have been, like, 

360
00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:59,100
Captain come down. 
Like, I can't do that. 

361
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,600
But like, there weren't that 
many moments that they were 

362
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,800
really good about picking out 
details in the book and trying 

363
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,900
to bring those out a little bit 
more, you know? 

364
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:14,500
And then I mean there there will
be things that I'm sure Valley 

365
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:17,600
folks will pick at absolutely 
but I think that's going to 

366
00:20:17,608 --> 00:20:20,500
happen in any industry or but 
they do that with newspaper 

367
00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:22,400
story too. 
So it's like a new thing. 

368
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:24,100
Yep. 
The other thing I would say is 

369
00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:27,200
they're very Bryan and David 
touches because if your watch 

370
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:32,900
billions, you kind of know, 
their aesthetic and their rapid 

371
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:37,800
fire talky like pop cultural 
references, they like to throw 

372
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:43,600
in and so they, so like there's 
the It was definitely, you know,

373
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,200
how Valley folks operate, but 
also, through Bryan and David's 

374
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,900
writing style, and size, you 
know, right? 

375
00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:54,100
Just like you would see, you 
would know how a particular 

376
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:56,300
screen writer writes different 
things. 

377
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:59,900
It's like it's like that and so 
they definitely put their touch 

378
00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:02,500
on it. 
I guess is what I'm is Arianna. 

379
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:08,000
Huffington is obviously very 
good at making haryana. 

380
00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:10,300
She always comes out of 
anything. 

381
00:21:10,300 --> 00:21:14,400
Looking good. 
I feel like no matter, no matter

382
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:19,200
what she comes out looking. 
Well, does she come out of this 

383
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,800
show? 
Looking good. 

384
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,000
Ha ha ha. 
I think the I think it depends 

385
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,300
on you. 
How you saw her come out of the 

386
00:21:27,308 --> 00:21:30,300
book looking? 
You know I think it I think they

387
00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:35,700
try to sort of really tease out.
I mean if your cast as Uma 

388
00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:37,800
Thurman in a show It's probably 
hard. 

389
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,100
Not to look exactly. 
You know like I got I can't even

390
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:43,100
tell you how many people. 
Well, like message me saying, 

391
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:46,900
are you fucking kidding me? 
This is not a happy. 

392
00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:49,700
He's there. 
Agree. 

393
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:53,700
I forget, I have to go back to 
the book, but I mean, my Ariana 

394
00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:57,700
was someone sort of hated by 
both the pro and I anti Travis 

395
00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:01,700
sides by the end, because she 
was Pro Travis for longer than 

396
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:03,900
people would have liked. 
But then obviously Travis 

397
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:08,200
demands, absolute loyalty and 
she wasn't, she comes around to 

398
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,800
sort of the DAR decision and 
then is out on the Travis side 

399
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,900
and is left with very few 
friends and Uber world. 

400
00:22:15,900 --> 00:22:17,600
I mean, I don't know. 
Would you agree with that? 

401
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,400
No, I know honey. 
I think Ariana is always team 

402
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,500
Ariana, right? 
And like you said like she 

403
00:22:23,500 --> 00:22:26,400
always lagging. 
Can't tell us lands on her feet.

404
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:30,700
I mean I write like the way we 
did that profile of her the 

405
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:33,500
upshot was she's always going to
be fine and she always comes 

406
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:35,200
out. 
Fine and everybody was so mad 

407
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,300
because they wanted her to fail 
and I was like this is not a 

408
00:22:37,308 --> 00:22:40,000
person who's ever going to fail 
so you wishing for that. 

409
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,400
Well if you're in telling you is
the fact his Public Image making

410
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,100
that I want to be good at is 
having a good Public Image. 

411
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,300
I know where that is. 
Yeah, if you optimize for that 

412
00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:51,700
you'll always come out. 
See it was funny that you said 

413
00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:53,600
she comes out looking good 
because that's never her. 

414
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,200
I don't think her Emma was 
coming out looking good. 

415
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,600
I think she's nothing. 
Come out unscathed, right? 

416
00:22:57,700 --> 00:23:00,500
Like I just unscathed but come 
out with some sort of advantage 

417
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:03,000
that propels our to her next 
thing, right? 

418
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,100
And I think she's very very good
at that and uniquely so and if 

419
00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:08,400
people resent her for it, I get 
it. 

420
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,200
But at the same time. 
Like but she doesn't care. 

421
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,200
If they resent her, she doesn't 
who cares. 

422
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,000
If your eyes on the prize, baby,
every time you move from thing, 

423
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,500
to thing, you gain more power or
you gain something. 

424
00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:20,800
Who cares that? 
If somebody resents you, the 

425
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,700
only thing I was going to say on
that is she always seems to find

426
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,800
just when I was writing the book
and sort of tracing her 

427
00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:30,600
ascendance I guess like she 
always seems to find this next 

428
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,400
little thing that actually is 
going to be a thing. 

429
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,000
You know. 
Like I mean, she like Huffington

430
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,800
Post kind of decimated news 
before anything else did in a 

431
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,200
way that did very well for, you 
know, and like, and just give 

432
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,900
her right, you know? 
Like the whole thing people 

433
00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:50,200
forget that. 
It was so scammy but then she 

434
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,600
kind of was there at the 
Forefront of like we're going to

435
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:57,300
sell Health in this like very 
100% packaged way like health is

436
00:23:57,300 --> 00:23:59,500
now going to become something 
that you can buy. 

437
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:04,000
How is the show going to change 
the way the public thinks about 

438
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:04,600
boober? 
Right? 

439
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,600
Because it felt like uber was 
something one the public didn't 

440
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,900
think about it, all right? 
When it was a Silicon Valley 

441
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:13,900
Obsession, it was just like a 
thing that you used and then 

442
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,000
became part because of all these
critical media stories, Uber 

443
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,000
became kind of The public 
Touchstone for bad Silicon 

444
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,000
Valley, like this is what's bad 
about the tech industry. 

445
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:25,400
Yes. 
And then everyone forgot about 

446
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,300
the Uber again. 
So how is this going to 

447
00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:30,100
re-establish? 
The Uber, like, Public Image or 

448
00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:35,700
change it? 
I think that for, I think that 

449
00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:40,600
we think we know how normal 
people think about Silicon 

450
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,400
Valley in a very different way 
than reality, meaning we have a 

451
00:24:45,408 --> 00:24:48,400
very like, we have a very strong
conceptual. 

452
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:51,200
Option of what these companies 
are, what the valley is. 

453
00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:55,000
I don't think normal. 
People have any real great 

454
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,400
thinking about what it's like 
inside of boober or even inside 

455
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,700
of Google Facebook. 
A lot of these, I think people 

456
00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:03,700
so Facebook is probably the best
example. 

457
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,000
I think people's Vision version 
of what they think Facebook is 

458
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,300
like is still from The Social 
Network movie, Whatever 10-15 

459
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:14,200
years ago, right like which was 
totally fabricated right. 

460
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,400
Which was it's very fabric of 
percent what I thought of 

461
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:20,400
Facebook Are right and it sticks
with you. 

462
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,000
And that's, I think that's how, 
you know, again, like all of us 

463
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,200
are very much deeply entrenched 
in what it's like today. 

464
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,500
And a lot of these companies 
and, you know, just sort of what

465
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:33,000
the vibe of the values. 
Like, I think normal people are 

466
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,100
so far removed from that, they 
and even like you said, with the

467
00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:43,600
Uber story, it was not. 
People had no idea about a lot 

468
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,400
of different parts of this. 
They didn't know. 

469
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,100
It was only a black car app for 
a very long time, they didn't 

470
00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:51,200
know. 
Lift was first to peer-to-peer 

471
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,100
stuff, they didn't like just 
sort of things that they take 

472
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:58,700
for granted now because they're 
so ubiquitous didn't really 

473
00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:02,900
recognize any of this. 
So I think for for anyone who 

474
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:07,100
watched the show just like can 
get like some sense of history 

475
00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:10,500
and in kind of how things 
actually went down and kind of 

476
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:14,900
what what it looked like inside.
And I think that's instructive 

477
00:26:14,900 --> 00:26:19,700
hopeful and I think I don't know
it'll be interesting to see It's

478
00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:23,000
hard to capture a lot of these 
companies in a really compelling

479
00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:26,300
way for TV. 
Just because like coding is, I'm

480
00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:27,300
boring. 
Yeah. 

481
00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:32,100
Like the tech stories unless you
unless in this particular case 

482
00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:34,800
we got lucky because the story 
was actually insane. 

483
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,500
Right. 
But like a lot of tech company 

484
00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:41,400
histories are not that a new 
bursley, physical world. 

485
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,400
And you know there's so much 
they're real. 

486
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,300
I mean that's why great ball is 
exciting. 

487
00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:48,400
It's like, oh, you're invading 
some sort of law enforcement. 

488
00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:50,600
All right, you know that it's 
very different even if you're on

489
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,400
Facebook and I don't know, doing
something with government that 

490
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,200
that sort of still like, I'm 
sure yeah, exactly. 

491
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,300
Right - exactly. 
It's seen some sniping right? 

492
00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:04,300
And it's things that like, you 
know, me affect people's lives. 

493
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:06,400
I mean that's why super pumped 
was so great, why you? 

494
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,500
No bad blood was so great, is 
that it makes this important 

495
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:12,000
connection that to get people to
care about this shit, which is 

496
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,600
like, well who's really being 
affected by any of this stuff? 

497
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,600
If it's just like money that 
evaporates because it was a bad 

498
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,300
idea or their work. 
Animals involved. 

499
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:21,500
Okay, sure. 
But also like, you know, who are

500
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:25,200
the people at the bottom of the 
chain that are, you know, not 

501
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,700
operating the same way. 
Now, because of the thing that 

502
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:30,600
happened at the top 100 percent 
and the social, The Social 

503
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,300
Network is such an interesting 
example because that movie came 

504
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:38,500
out before I cover Tech, right? 
So that was 20 2009. 2010 2010, 

505
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:42,600
I was covering Wall Street so my
only all that. 

506
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,400
I know about the tech industry 
came from that movie because I 

507
00:27:45,408 --> 00:27:47,900
had literally zero interest in 
it before. 

508
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:50,200
Yeah. 
And so my in, but this is the 

509
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,500
difference. 
So this is like now, I know that

510
00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:55,500
a lot of the movie was not true,
right? 

511
00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:58,600
But the sense that you got of 
the company and the sense that 

512
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,200
you got from the people 
involved, was it still accurate 

513
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:08,300
on some level? 
When was that would be in time 

514
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:11,300
on social networks, right, I 
never got bullshit, right? 

515
00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:14,700
I mean, yeah, any idea that so 
much of the central conflict was

516
00:28:14,900 --> 00:28:18,400
Zuckerberg not having like a 
girlfriend or whatever. 

517
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:23,100
Or write out the tension when he
had a strong girlfriend, like, 

518
00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:25,900
throughout who is involved 
because it's Aaron Sorkin, like 

519
00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:27,800
he's a one-dimensional grants, 
like he owed me. 

520
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,700
We can talk about this 
thankfully with Mike before we 

521
00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:32,400
see the show. 
But let's see. 

522
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,300
I thought that the central I got
this Central tension was not 

523
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:38,400
about the girlfriend. 
I thought the central tension 

524
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,100
was between he and the 
Winklevoss. 

525
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:44,100
I, well, that's answer and 
Andrew Garfield. 

526
00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:47,700
A key part of what made his sort
of humanity was the relationship

527
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,200
with a girlfriend. 
Which just was what was driving 

528
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:55,000
and not actually true and it I 
did find that super it allowed. 

529
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,400
Sort of, I think tech people in 
the know to sort of say, well, 

530
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,900
that's not really what motivated
soccer bright. 

531
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:05,600
But now we're now for probably 
very few people could tell you 

532
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,800
the other plot points of movie 
that came out 12 years ago, but 

533
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,300
the sense of the company that it
left is one that remained, 

534
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:13,600
right? 
So I had actually literally 

535
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,200
forgotten that the girlfriend 
was even a part of this movie, 

536
00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:21,000
but that Rudy, By the 
interrelationships in the movie.

537
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,100
But I forgot about the fact that
their girlfriend was even a 

538
00:29:24,108 --> 00:29:27,800
factor in the plot, but the 
sense of the company, which is a

539
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,900
Founder, who is a moral who, you
know, feels the he's driven, 

540
00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:35,900
right? 
Maniacally driven nicely driven 

541
00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:37,900
and wave over anything. 
That's all. 

542
00:29:37,900 --> 00:29:42,000
I remember about that movie but,
you know, so that I think that's

543
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,700
sort of like why the public 
feels that way about Mark 

544
00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:48,100
Zuckerberg in some ways and it 
has nothing to do with being 

545
00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:51,000
able to To actually remember any
of the plot. 

546
00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:54,500
Well, I think we all agree. 
Yeah, the mood from a movie, or 

547
00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:57,300
a piece of content is going to 
inform people way more than 

548
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,900
write the Articles we right. 
So and so the show and bring 

549
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:09,500
about very much but what will 
the impression be that it leaves

550
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,900
of Travis, right? 
And is that different from the 

551
00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:13,800
impression that the news has 
left? 

552
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,300
I think so. 
I think so a, I have that that 

553
00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:21,800
just in exploring this exploring
and really thinking hard about 

554
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:27,900
Facebook, because I am doing a 
another book on Facebook next, 

555
00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:30,400
which I'm going to have to go 
start working on, not start. 

556
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,700
Go continue after this podcast, 
right? 

557
00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:36,700
Right, is there an era or what's
the central? 

558
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:41,600
I think it's, I think it's gonna
be well, it's funny that you're 

559
00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:47,000
mentioning the, and this is why 
I bring it up is because I ate 

560
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,000
part of why I want to do it is 
because of how much people think

561
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,700
of Facebook as The Social 
Network are 20 2011 or whatever 

562
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:59,200
the hell. 
It was 2010 2011 I think people 

563
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,300
don't really know what drives 
Mark and Cheryl to do what they 

564
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:08,100
do and I think it's much more 
nuanced and not necessarily in a

565
00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:11,700
flattering way, I think there's 
but not necessarily an 

566
00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:13,300
unflattering way. 
I just think that people are 

567
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:18,200
complicated and it It it has it 
is the similar impulse that I 

568
00:31:18,208 --> 00:31:21,200
had with Travis, right? 
Like he's not your hero, he's 

569
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,400
not your villain. 
He's a flawed person and I think

570
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:24,700
that's what makes him 
interesting. 

571
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:28,600
And what makes the arc, so fun 
to write about, how do you have,

572
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,600
you talked to Travis, since your
courtroom scene, where he's at 

573
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,700
least last time I spoke to him 
in real life? 

574
00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:39,000
I mean, as you guys know, there 
are there are ways of getting to

575
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,700
him. 
But like I think that I think 

576
00:31:41,700 --> 00:31:45,200
that was literally the last time
we ever interacted and trick. 

577
00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:48,000
Ends or whatever, it's been a 
while, but go back to the 

578
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,900
answering that like, so what is,
how will this show? 

579
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:54,800
What will the public perception 
of Travis be after the show? 

580
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:56,600
And how is that different from 
what we have? 

581
00:31:56,700 --> 00:31:59,700
I really think. 
I think that you are correct 

582
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:05,400
before in saying the view of 
Travis from from my coverage, 

583
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,800
from other folks has coverage. 
As it was unfolding was probably

584
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,600
like big scary Tech bad guy. 
I don't think that's what he is.

585
00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:18,100
For better or worse, I guess, 
and I don't think that's what 

586
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:21,500
the show portrays them. 
As I think the show sort of 

587
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,000
maybe, there are people who 
watch the show who like him or 

588
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,700
Founders, who sort of get it, 
you know, I still talk to people

589
00:32:27,700 --> 00:32:32,100
in the valley today who are 
like, you know, benchmark fucked

590
00:32:32,100 --> 00:32:33,600
up. 
They should not have done this. 

591
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,300
There's a few people who are 
very like strongly against it. 

592
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:41,900
So I think it I think they do a 
good job of sort of showing that

593
00:32:41,900 --> 00:32:47,600
he was a driven guy but also 
Some of the things that made him

594
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,900
great or the things that end up 
doing him in in the end. 

595
00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:54,000
So he's our friends, our 
characters in the show. 

596
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,100
Yes. 
Angie and Gabi are both. 

597
00:32:57,100 --> 00:32:58,400
Yeah, I think that would be 
interesting. 

598
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:03,400
I'm excited to see how those 
inform his ark. 

599
00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:06,900
Yeah, he's definitely. 
They are a big part. 

600
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,200
I want to go back to something. 
You said, a while ago in this, 

601
00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:13,200
which was that you weren't 
expecting them to make this 

602
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,800
after it was optioned, right? 
It's like you can a check for 

603
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,900
the option, which is awesome. 
Mike and I even remember, I even

604
00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:21,600
remember when it happens, you 
know, and I covered media for a 

605
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,600
while and so people were like, 
oh man, you know, the option 

606
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,400
Mike's book and I was like, 
yeah, they're never going to 

607
00:33:25,408 --> 00:33:28,300
make it right? 
Because be even ever casting all

608
00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:29,700
this stuff. 
We're like is this really, you 

609
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:33,600
know, is this gonna happen? 
Or is it the blood can be pulled

610
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,800
at any point during these things
and I had always thought like 

611
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,400
there's just not enough people 
like to us, it's the biggest 

612
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,100
deal in the world, right? 
Like I read all of your stories 

613
00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:43,700
and I was like yeah and I love 
the book and I was like oh yeah,

614
00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:47,300
this is great drama but And it's
like, who cares outside of just 

615
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:50,600
us and, you know, Hollywood has 
to operate largely outside of 

616
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,000
the things that we for people 
are interested in. 

617
00:33:53,900 --> 00:33:58,100
But then so, this coincides with
what is like one of the topics 

618
00:33:58,100 --> 00:34:00,200
that tech people Tech 
journalists always get around to

619
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,400
which is this bubble of books 
and now shows based on these 

620
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:05,700
these companies. 
Right. 

621
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:07,700
I mean like I was at a party 
last night. 

622
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:08,600
Missed you there. 
Mike. 

623
00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:13,000
I my back actually went out 
yesterday so I literally spent 

624
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,000
the rest of the evening on my 
back. 

625
00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:17,500
And now I have a pillow back on 
the okay, right now. 

626
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:18,300
I'm okay. 
Yeah. 

627
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:21,900
But I had Katie remembers the 
era of me being, like, fucked up

628
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:24,000
in my back, so I feel terrible 
for missing that party. 

629
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,800
I gotta call Elliot anyway, but 
I know but immediately cast 

630
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:40,699
about another media party line. 
But so, you know, reporter there

631
00:34:40,699 --> 00:34:44,199
had written a book about we work
and in the background of the 

632
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:48,000
party were screen. 
Of the Apple TV we work show 

633
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,500
that is going be coming out in a
couple of weeks with Jared Leto.

634
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:53,800
Is Adam Newman. 
My God, that's so funny. 

635
00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:56,400
What is that happening or yeah? 
Yeah. 

636
00:34:56,500 --> 00:34:58,600
Like there were episodes. 
There's a trailer out. 

637
00:34:58,700 --> 00:34:59,500
Hmm. 
Yeah. 

638
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:03,100
Whose book is it off of or 
nobody's know it's based on re 

639
00:35:03,100 --> 00:35:05,900
vitamins book and then, you 
know, they're going to be making

640
00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:09,700
the Katie you're in Mike, your 
colleagues on the Facebook, 

641
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:13,000
being wait who? 
So there is a book on on. 

642
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,000
There's an Apple TV show on On. 
We work that's coming out there 

643
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,700
making a second season of Super 
Pump that's going to be based on

644
00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:22,300
Facebook and maybe related to 
the book that you're putting 

645
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:24,500
out. 
There is what is called super 

646
00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:27,200
pumped will it, or they're going
to not really sure what their 

647
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,500
title designation is, it's an 
apology pump: Facebook, right? 

648
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,800
Okay, so is it Mike General name
may be cool, I think, I think 

649
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,900
they, I think for naming 
purposes, it might be good to 

650
00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:40,600
have continuity. 
I'm not exactly sure what 

651
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,300
they're going to do, but we'll 
call it fucking metal mates meta

652
00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:45,100
mates. 
Meta mate. 

653
00:35:45,300 --> 00:35:48,700
Fucked up but it's and then 
there's going to be also. 

654
00:35:48,700 --> 00:35:54,600
I think another Apple TV thing 
on on Shira and Cecilia's book. 

655
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,600
So like we've gone from, you 
know my thinking like yeah 

656
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,700
they'll option these things but 
nothing's going to happen from 

657
00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:03,700
it to it seems like they're 
green lighting everything and I 

658
00:36:03,707 --> 00:36:06,100
don't know from your perspective
having been like part of the 

659
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:09,900
bubble and like benefited from 
it and contributed to it like 

660
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:12,100
what is happening like where is 
this coming from? 

661
00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:15,700
Is this just the success of Bad 
Blood and that Becoming like a 

662
00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:20,800
wider pop culture phenomenon 
where producers may be realized 

663
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,600
like oh yeah there is you know 
an audience for these kinds of 

664
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,100
things is it just like the 
growth of tech in all of our 

665
00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:29,300
lives and like we're trying to 
examine, you know, is it a 

666
00:36:29,308 --> 00:36:32,400
reflection of you know what 
we've built and who we are? 

667
00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:35,600
Is it just like a cash grab? 
Because these are streaming 

668
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,700
services that just order content
by the tonnage and they just 

669
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:40,100
have to get more shows out 
there. 

670
00:36:40,100 --> 00:36:43,400
And so we like that's like Pele 
I do is rely concert. 

671
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,700
I know, so I think there are I 
think there's not one given 

672
00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:51,600
thing. 
I think there are a lot of 

673
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,500
things, a streamers desperately 
need content all the time, 

674
00:36:56,500 --> 00:36:58,800
right? 
Like and you have like this 

675
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,300
streaming war going on. 
Where, again, what you said is, 

676
00:37:01,300 --> 00:37:03,800
you can't even remember, which 
thing it's playing on because 

677
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:05,500
everyone has a streaming app 
right now. 

678
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:10,000
If it's not Apple TV or Apple 
TV, Plus or whatever, whatever 

679
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,600
it's called and it's Hulu, if 
it's not Hulu that it's Netflix,

680
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,800
it's not Netflix, then it's 
showtime which is we're super 

681
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,100
pumped. 
His which is what you should 

682
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:17,900
subscribe to if it's not 
Showtime than it. 

683
00:37:17,908 --> 00:37:20,300
Someone just you know send me 
their password to Showtime the 

684
00:37:20,308 --> 00:37:25,000
other day. 
I won't I do not recommend it if

685
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,900
it's not but like streamers all 
great job are exciting for 

686
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:33,700
streamers all finest. 
We're gonna consume like show 

687
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,200
however you can you know, but 
they all need to find content 

688
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,200
and they're paying a lot of 
money for it and There's I mean,

689
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,900
they're the, the other thing 
that made me what was shocking 

690
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:51,200
to me, is how much IP is like 
just snapping up books and book 

691
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,100
rights to make a lot of these 
things. 

692
00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:57,800
Like a lot of really dramatic 
books that would work are the 

693
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,500
are the one. 
So like so it's kind of like a 

694
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:05,200
lagging indicator. 
The the the the movie options 

695
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,300
and TV options are a lagging 
indicator. 

696
00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:10,600
I think of how many TV herb Tech
books are being sold. 

697
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,000
Which again, we went through a 
bubbled. 

698
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:18,100
Are in like a ton of textbooks, 
what I think will be curious is 

699
00:38:19,100 --> 00:38:22,600
so my show is hitting at the 
same time, a few different shows

700
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,100
are hitting. 
I know there are a number of 

701
00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:25,900
articles in the works. 
Right now. 

702
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:29,300
It's probably time to the 
premier's around like this very 

703
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:31,500
Trend and like, what's going on 
here? 

704
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:33,800
Why is this? 
I think so. 

705
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,800
I think part of its streamers 
need content. 

706
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,000
I think part of it is a bunch of
different books on this. 

707
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,700
I think part of it is Tech, is 
is A huge topic that we have all

708
00:38:43,700 --> 00:38:47,300
covered for our jobs in a big 
way over the past five to seven 

709
00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:50,000
years. 
That was not covered the same 

710
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,300
way generation previous. 
Let's say, you know, I mean, 

711
00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,900
Donald Trump's gone politics is 
boring text. 

712
00:38:55,900 --> 00:39:00,100
A better story, you know that 
market caps are kind of right. 

713
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,100
Like you know I think when Wall 
Street was a big story before 

714
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:08,200
collapse like on the come up it 
was 2006 7 and then eight, 

715
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:13,700
obviously the collapse and so 
Pop culture or the processing of

716
00:39:13,700 --> 00:39:15,800
that happens. 
Later The Wolf of Wall Street, 

717
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,200
just like seven years later. 
The Big Short is like, 8 years 

718
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,900
later. 
Even like the Lehman Brothers 

719
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:25,200
movie was years later and you 
see a multi-year, stretch of 

720
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,300
movies and television shows. 
Come out all about Wall Street, 

721
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,000
like, does five to ten years 
after Wall Street. 

722
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,500
The story itself that reporters 
covered, five to ten years after

723
00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:39,300
that story is covered and 
reporters have done it. 

724
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,400
The pop culture versions of it. 
It takes takes a few years to 

725
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,200
digest and then like another few
years to put out, so like the 

726
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,600
last big Wall Street show is 
probably, I mean like billions, 

727
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:51,300
right? 
Yeah. 

728
00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:54,400
And so, but between like the 
Lehman Brothers movie, I forgot 

729
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,900
what it's called. 
But about like the fiction with 

730
00:39:56,900 --> 00:40:00,900
Demi Moore between that and 
billions is like. 

731
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,500
So that's like what seven years 
of movies and television shows 

732
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:07,900
about things that happened seven
years before, you know, so this 

733
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:11,800
is so few like about where the 
text or I was the ark, you kind 

734
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,000
of the Because like 2016 and the
come down is 2017. 

735
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,400
Were in 2022. 
I think we've got another three 

736
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,000
or four years of these shows and
movies and to be clear. 

737
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,700
We also don't know yet, how 
they'll be received, you know? 

738
00:40:24,700 --> 00:40:28,800
I'd like a super pumped is the 
first one, I've Sprite more or 

739
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,100
less. 
I mean, you could maybe put 

740
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,400
Silicon Valley but that's, I 
would say, I did well, that 

741
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,200
Agora I was going to say the 
theranos all the there, 

742
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,800
honestly, I'm not sure when that
comes out but that's yeah, 

743
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,800
that's the other word of 9V but,
you know, they always get done. 

744
00:40:42,100 --> 00:40:44,800
Enter a podcast and television 
show about Mario's. 

745
00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:47,300
I mean, that's how it works. 
But I think right time I think 

746
00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:49,900
your point is right. 
Like we have a lot of it. 

747
00:40:49,900 --> 00:40:54,000
Now if everyone hates all of 
this, maybe it goes away, maybe 

748
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,400
maybe we're like, all right, we 
tried doing the tech thing, 

749
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,100
right? 
We're not optioning Tech stuff 

750
00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:00,300
anymore, you know. 
I think that well Hollywood is 

751
00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:03,300
full of followers, right? 
So we're tag reporter is in use 

752
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:06,400
careers, hang on. 
This be successful. 

753
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:14,400
There are ghosts all the high 
schools in. 

754
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,500
Like let me explain you what a 
fucking option is, okay? 

755
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:18,200
That's where you get into the 
game. 

756
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:21,600
You want to option? 
Wow, Eric is a journalism 

757
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,300
Professor is so immense to think
I'm in the newsletter business, 

758
00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:27,900
which is his own bubble, right? 
Hustle. 

759
00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:35,000
So that's like comparing it to 
Wall Street, you know. 

760
00:41:35,008 --> 00:41:38,100
I think back to like the 80s 
and, you know, like the three 

761
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:40,800
sort of big books that came out 
of like the financialization in 

762
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,200
the 80s, you have Barbarian at 
the gates, you have liars poker,

763
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,200
and you have the launch by 
Apatow mentioned above, your 

764
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,000
oven is bonfire of the vanities.
And like, two of them are, like,

765
00:41:51,100 --> 00:41:54,500
you know, journalistic 
recounting Zoar like narratives 

766
00:41:54,700 --> 00:41:57,900
in a nonfiction narratives about
what it was like being in Wall 

767
00:41:57,900 --> 00:42:00,100
Street during that during that 
period Then you have bonfire of 

768
00:42:00,100 --> 00:42:03,800
the vanities which is this 
completely crazy fictional piece

769
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,200
and it's interesting to me that 
like the shows that are being 

770
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,500
made right now are all mostly 
based on books and like real 

771
00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:13,100
companies that have imploded, 
Crazy dramas. 

772
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,700
I don't think we've had like the
really ambitious fictional just 

773
00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:20,300
purely fictionalized needs to 
come out in a wiener. 

774
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,200
Did her book, right? 
Which is fictionalized. 

775
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,500
Well, I read that. 
It's only know, it's like, I 

776
00:42:25,508 --> 00:42:28,700
think it's pretty true to life. 
It's autobiographical. 

777
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:29,800
Yeah. 
Right. 

778
00:42:29,900 --> 00:42:32,700
No, that's not fictionalize. 
I think fictionalized versions. 

779
00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:37,200
Sort of came out, maybe too 
early and they were too facile 

780
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,800
in some ways. 
So there's the moist Michaels 

781
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:41,800
did a novel. 
Yeah. 

782
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,400
They I feel a little off, like, 
one of the novel, The Circle, 

783
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:46,600
right? 
All right, that was not quite 

784
00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:49,700
well, that was a terrible book. 
It's not because one of the 

785
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:52,900
things that bonfire of the 
vanities, is that it not only 

786
00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:55,800
skewers Wall Street, it's 
accurate, right? 

787
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,800
It's like cancer test but also 
like dead-on right? 

788
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,800
And by remembering it, right? 
And yeah, it's very 

789
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,700
knowledgeable. 
The tech critique novels they 

790
00:43:05,700 --> 00:43:08,700
were so interested in the 
critique that they didn't pay 

791
00:43:08,700 --> 00:43:11,900
attention to any of the other 
parts including character. 

792
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:17,700
Total which speaks to a sort of 
scold E Period of our coal. 

793
00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:19,200
Right? 
We're live right? 

794
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,500
And you over the head, right, 
fucking metaphor, right? 

795
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:22,700
Right? 
Like, okay, which is why they 

796
00:43:22,700 --> 00:43:25,700
can't make any good like a rock 
or movies right now a decade 

797
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:27,400
ago. 
That's what came out way before 

798
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,600
the scolded culture became rich,
just like it's just, they 

799
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,600
weren't they. 
It's nobody's taking, it's not 

800
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,700
Tom, Wolfe. 
He was like in some ways 

801
00:43:36,700 --> 00:43:41,900
himself, a person very embedded,
in Wall Street, he clearly had 

802
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,500
I'd like of point of view on it 
but he was just a funny writer 

803
00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:49,400
and he was willing to like you 
can't have like a funny 

804
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,300
interesting account. 
Unless you actually are willing 

805
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:56,100
to understand the thing, your 
skewering and you have some like

806
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,700
love for it to at a deep level. 
Yeah there's a Thomas pynchon 

807
00:43:59,700 --> 00:44:03,400
book about tech in the early 
2000s called bleeding edge which

808
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:08,000
is like not great. 
It's not like it's like it's too

809
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,400
dense but it's incredibly 
knowledgeable you know like I 

810
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,300
started reading it when I got an
A Every attack and it's like 

811
00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:15,900
he's like fucking discussing 
like the specifics on how a 

812
00:44:15,900 --> 00:44:19,100
round is put together and like 
para passu and these like 

813
00:44:19,100 --> 00:44:21,900
extremely small Tech terms and 
is like I don't want to read 

814
00:44:21,900 --> 00:44:24,400
that now. 
Anyway, but we could guess 

815
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,000
conclude the section being like 
it's, you know. 

816
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,700
So we have this period that 
we're about to find out Reich, 

817
00:44:28,700 --> 00:44:30,800
whether anybody gives a shit 
about this stuff, right? 

818
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,600
Yeah, Beyond us and it could 
inform, you know, whether it 

819
00:44:33,607 --> 00:44:35,200
will be like the next wave of 
these things. 

820
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,500
Or this is just going to be, 
like, another fad, like, you 

821
00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:40,000
know, teen dystopia movies that 
they were all doing like 10 

822
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,900
years ago that no one hears 
about anymore. 

823
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,600
Or you know, if that's going to 
be like the tech, you know, the 

824
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,900
tech collapse story of like the 
22s or whatever you call it. 

825
00:44:48,908 --> 00:44:51,600
I mean I think it will. 
Yeah I will I think part of it 

826
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,500
will depend on if people watch 
it. 

827
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:56,000
If it's good. 
You know. 

828
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,400
Like that's the other thing like
because like some people I'm 

829
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:04,000
obviously biased but I think the
show is very compelling and like

830
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,000
very good so like I think it's 
it will depend on if the stuff 

831
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,500
is acclaimed if this stuff like 
has legs or re-watch You're like

832
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:14,900
propulsive - the thing that I 
think really works with our 

833
00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:18,200
shows that you want to keep 
going, you know, and they're 

834
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,400
doing a serialized release. 
So we each week is going to be 

835
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,500
like, instead of just like, 
Netflix dumping everything it's 

836
00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:28,000
going to be, which I think is 
smarter actually to do. 

837
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:33,400
So, it's I'm bullish on the tech
movies and TV shows because I 

838
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,700
think that people always want to
see like we always want to 

839
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,100
watch. 
Sort of a rise and fall and we 

840
00:45:40,100 --> 00:45:43,200
always want to watch sort of 
like the outside versions of all

841
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,800
the emotions. 
We already feel every day and 

842
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,300
that's always best done through 
the stories of people who did it

843
00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:51,600
on a bigger stage with more at 
stake. 

844
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,800
So, like in, I feel like in the 
80s in the 90s like sort of in 

845
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:01,500
the 80s, you had all these like 
shows about like you know end of

846
00:46:01,508 --> 00:46:04,400
the 90s about like Andy Warhol 
and things that were happening 

847
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,500
in the 70s Glam Rock and that 
was sort of the stage A John, 

848
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:11,300
which we were exploring those 
ideas, and then like after the 

849
00:46:11,300 --> 00:46:13,500
80s, you had a lot of Wall 
Street content. 

850
00:46:13,700 --> 00:46:15,400
And then, of course, after the 
wall street, collapse, it a lot 

851
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,000
of Wall Street content. 
So Tech was for a while. 

852
00:46:18,300 --> 00:46:21,300
The way the culture. 
Our was funneling, our big ideas

853
00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:24,200
about winning and losing and 
about like what it meant to take

854
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:29,100
risk and be like the go like 
great man, Theory stuff was all 

855
00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:30,900
just happening in Tech. 
So that's where we're going to 

856
00:46:30,908 --> 00:46:33,600
explore it for a little while 
and then there's going to be 

857
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:38,600
some Rush of like horrific 
Washington, d.c. pop, That comes

858
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,800
out a decade from now I'm very 
curious. 

859
00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:44,500
I'm like already, like not into 
it but whatever. 

860
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,200
So this is the fascinating thing
about this era though because 

861
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,400
like, you know, you want to talk
about who cares about some of 

862
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:50,900
the stuff, does it have a wider 
audience? 

863
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,700
I never would have expected that
a fucking show about a media 

864
00:46:53,700 --> 00:46:56,700
family and the boardroom fights 
and like who's going to take 

865
00:46:56,700 --> 00:47:00,800
over the company from their 
decrepit, criminal father is a 

866
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,900
show that was going to be like a
huge as I can see. 

867
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:04,300
That's not what the show is 
about. 

868
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:08,000
The show is about kids, who have
a shitty dad, right? 

869
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:09,900
Everybody wants to see that 
show, right? 

870
00:47:09,900 --> 00:47:12,000
And people have always liked to 
gawk at wealth. 

871
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,200
I mean, wealth is always been 
something people have had those 

872
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:16,500
right? 
And it's and it's funny. 

873
00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:21,300
But yeah, the the media 
immediately shrinkage not also 

874
00:47:21,300 --> 00:47:25,300
be funny Cask. 
I mean, we sort of touched on 

875
00:47:25,300 --> 00:47:29,300
this on the Alex Heath episode. 
It's been on my mind a lot and 

876
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:32,400
it flows through both sort of 
the Uber and Facebook Stories. 

877
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,900
I mean, just the, you know, 
whether the media is goal is to 

878
00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:41,500
like, unseat you Like a Travis 
or a Mark Zuckerberg, and we 

879
00:47:41,500 --> 00:47:45,500
sort of uber was in some ways, 
the test case where it was 

880
00:47:45,900 --> 00:47:48,400
there, I mean, we were both 
covering it. 

881
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,400
It did feel like there were 
legitimate stories and I was 

882
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:57,400
surprised, you know, when he was
pushed out and, you know, so I 

883
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,200
don't know, but there was 
definitely a sense that every 

884
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,600
story was building towards will 
this guy be removed? 

885
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:07,200
And then we saw her saw a 
version with we work. 

886
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,400
They'll Maybe The journal was 
sort of more singular in sort of

887
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,800
that. 
And then with Facebook, it feels

888
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,800
right now that at least some 
pockets of the Facebook coverage

889
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:22,200
are really trying to unseat Mark
Zuckerberg. 

890
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,700
So I don't know. 
What do you, how do you think 

891
00:48:24,700 --> 00:48:27,700
about this sort of have played a
big role in The Uber Saga 

892
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,500
covering Facebook, where it does
feel like the media is driving 

893
00:48:33,100 --> 00:48:36,400
whether these CEOs, you know, 
stay in their jobs. 

894
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,600
Yeah. 
Coverage to me is fascinating 

895
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,500
because I think there are folks 
and you can, I think there are 

896
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,800
fine arguments on each side of 
like of this. 

897
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,300
There are some people who are 
purely oppositional against 

898
00:48:51,300 --> 00:48:54,200
Facebook, right? 
They feel like they've sort of 

899
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,300
decided Facebook is bad for the 
world, a Bad Company you know 

900
00:48:58,300 --> 00:49:01,600
like just sort of like that is 
their position that's definitely

901
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:06,400
their Twitter sort of stance and
position and that's fine. 

902
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,400
If that's what your outlet is. 
Allowing you to be or whatever? 

903
00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:18,900
I don't think that's my role. 
And so I and I but I also like I

904
00:49:18,900 --> 00:49:24,900
also find it more effective to 
just sort of like let let things

905
00:49:24,900 --> 00:49:28,300
sort of present things like as 
they are and then people can 

906
00:49:28,300 --> 00:49:31,500
sort of decide. 
This is great, this is awful or 

907
00:49:31,500 --> 00:49:35,000
whatever I agree with you. 
At the same time that like what 

908
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,800
is the drum beat to all this 
intense coverage as it goes 

909
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,600
along. 
And it does feel like the climax

910
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,400
is ultimately. 
Well, is this the buck stops 

911
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,800
with you? 
Have you failed, should you 

912
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,700
still be at the head of the 
company as the head of the 

913
00:49:47,700 --> 00:49:49,700
company? 
I think part of that is also fed

914
00:49:49,700 --> 00:49:55,000
by being a public company and I 
mean maybe Uber is like the 

915
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,800
exception of this but like 
shareholders also demand change 

916
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,300
in times of like, great crisis, 
right? 

917
00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:05,700
You just saw that would Peloton 
and like them sort of ousting 

918
00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:08,800
the dude because of how Fucked 
up, it is. 

919
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,600
And so I think that is kind of 
the backdrop as well, but I 

920
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,600
don't know with Facebook, it 
feels different because of how 

921
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:22,100
emotional people feel about it 
about the company and about 

922
00:50:22,100 --> 00:50:25,900
Mark, specifically. 
And I have a lot of mixed 

923
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:29,700
feelings on what the coverage 
is, you know, but I obviously 

924
00:50:29,700 --> 00:50:33,000
like, critical coverage is good.
I just think that, like, it's 

925
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,700
interesting to see some folks 
just be like, this is my goal, 

926
00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:40,200
this is a bad company. 
I'm doing is sort of like taking

927
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,300
taking it out essentially, so I 
don't know. 

928
00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:46,800
I mean I think it's a valid 
position if that's what you want

929
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,700
to do but everyone has to sort 
of figure out what's 

930
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:51,400
interesting. 
I mean, on the Uber story, you 

931
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,600
know, they're all these 
scandals, but there was also 

932
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,100
just, you know, Uber was a 
company that lost a lot of money

933
00:50:57,100 --> 00:51:00,300
and like, wasn't really 
necessarily reforming its 

934
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:03,500
business and there was some 
Financial pressure to just sort 

935
00:51:03,500 --> 00:51:08,100
of bring in a different strategy
of what could be sort of. 

936
00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:11,600
Of a huge disaster under sort of
a bill girly. 

937
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:17,300
Way of thinking I mean given 
Facebook's enormous stock 

938
00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:20,700
declines like you do wonder if 
the piece of the puzzle that was

939
00:51:20,700 --> 00:51:25,500
missing with Facebook was the 
actual financial problems you 

940
00:51:25,500 --> 00:51:29,100
know it was a great business so 
Mark Zuckerberg kept 

941
00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:32,500
consolidating power and the 
company works. 

942
00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:33,900
So who cares if they're 
scandals? 

943
00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:37,200
The media can scream all at once
but things will continue. 

944
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:41,500
But now we're really Seeing the 
stock market hit so not knowing 

945
00:51:41,500 --> 00:51:43,500
anything inside. 
That would finally be the piece 

946
00:51:43,500 --> 00:51:46,500
that would worry me if I were, I
don't know Mark Zuckerberg, or 

947
00:51:46,500 --> 00:51:49,400
what's your read on that? 
I have heard that he has not 

948
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:54,500
been in a good mood lately. 
I am like, it's funny because I 

949
00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:59,200
think I'm very curious if we 
look back in a few years and see

950
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,100
right now is some sort of 
turning point because it does 

951
00:52:02,100 --> 00:52:05,900
feel like they are in. 
I mean, it's funny because we've

952
00:52:05,900 --> 00:52:10,400
always treated Facebook as or 
the coverage has been here is 

953
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,100
all this stuff that they're 
doing whether it's intentional 

954
00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:15,900
or unintentional that has these 
secondary effects that can be 

955
00:52:15,908 --> 00:52:17,400
very awful. 
Right? 

956
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:22,200
And how do you reckon with that?
But at the same time, the 

957
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:28,100
underlying sort of stable, you 
know, thing is like consistent 

958
00:52:28,100 --> 00:52:31,200
quarterly growth. 
Consistent profits, consistent 

959
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:35,300
sort of like trust in leadership
because they've been able to 

960
00:52:35,300 --> 00:52:37,900
sort of innovate their way into 
innovate. 

961
00:52:38,100 --> 00:52:40,500
Nevada. 
I mean, you know, copy or choir 

962
00:52:40,500 --> 00:52:46,900
choir, right into a sort of next
successive, phase of staying on 

963
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:51,500
top, at least in some markets. 
And I think that's now a 

964
00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:55,100
question mark where it wasn't in
the past, like can they fix 

965
00:52:55,100 --> 00:52:59,000
their apple? 
Google sort of advertising 

966
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,900
member measurement, issue around
mobile devices which is rapidly 

967
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:07,000
changing over the next few years
and now are people going to go 

968
00:53:07,500 --> 00:53:09,300
start. 
Spinning add money, somewhere 

969
00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:11,100
else. 
That's like, I think that really

970
00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:14,500
fucked up the stock. 
I think I think them hitting 

971
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:17,600
growth ceilings on some of their
legacy properties is fucking up 

972
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,000
the stock. 
I think that there's like 

973
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,500
they're like a bunch of 
different things that kind of 

974
00:53:22,500 --> 00:53:25,000
all happened. 
At once that they reported in 

975
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,800
this earnings that made stocks 
made everyone sort of be like, 

976
00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:32,500
oh my God, is this some sort of 
ceiling that we should be 

977
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:35,300
looking at? 
So I think it's more a question 

978
00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:38,900
mark that ever, you know, 
they're essentially saying We've

979
00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:41,200
done this before. 
We can do it again. 

980
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,000
You know, like, trust us because
I'm Mark Zuckerberg and I'm 

981
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:45,600
Sheryl Sandberg and where the 
Dream Team. 

982
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:50,300
But, like, I haven't had many 
heard many great answers beyond 

983
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:54,800
that so far, you know, you know,
we've talked a lot about 

984
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,800
Spotify, but just as, I don't 
question, you talked about how 

985
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,600
much money you wrote a story 
recently, revealing the fact 

986
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,300
that Joe Rogan had been paid, in
fact, 200 million dollars with 

987
00:54:05,300 --> 00:54:07,800
the option for more to come to 
Spotify which is indicative of 

988
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:12,300
this. 
Dia that for a company to stand 

989
00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:15,700
out in a really crowded media 
space, like podcasting, you have

990
00:54:15,700 --> 00:54:19,300
to have a star. 
Now, do you think that both the 

991
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,900
cost of Joe Rogan to get him and
then the cost of having all of 

992
00:54:23,900 --> 00:54:28,100
your eggs in one star basket? 
Implode so spectacularly? 

993
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,800
Do you think that that is going 
to have people? 

994
00:54:31,100 --> 00:54:33,000
It's going to cause people, 
especially in the podcasting 

995
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,300
space. 
It's so crowded to rethink the 

996
00:54:35,300 --> 00:54:38,200
idea of a need for one star, one
voice. 

997
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,600
Yeah, I said well in talking to 
so I worked in the story with a 

998
00:54:42,607 --> 00:54:45,600
few colleagues who were all to 
just amazing reporting and 

999
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:47,900
digging to find folks involved 
in this. 

1000
00:54:48,300 --> 00:54:53,000
And like you have to remember 
Spotify was in a historically 

1001
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,200
shitty business where they were 
not making any money, for a long

1002
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,100
period of time. 
Music is terrible, they make 

1003
00:54:58,100 --> 00:55:01,900
like no money, the label, still 
have them over a barrel on just 

1004
00:55:01,900 --> 00:55:06,300
like what you can get out of 
streams from artists and still 

1005
00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:08,400
screwing artists on paying them 
very little. 

1006
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,000
Per stream, even if you are 
making millions of streams 

1007
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,400
everyday. 
So against that backdrop, they 

1008
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,800
needed to get into a different 
business and they needed to do 

1009
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,200
it quickly. 
They saw podcasting, is their 

1010
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,800
chance there. 
The field has been fragmented, 

1011
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:27,100
historically, I mean sub stack 
is looking at it and wants a 

1012
00:55:27,107 --> 00:55:29,800
piece of it. 
Like, no one apple has kind of 

1013
00:55:29,808 --> 00:55:33,700
squandered, whatever lead it 
might have had at some point by 

1014
00:55:33,700 --> 00:55:36,700
its podcasting app, being 
terrible for very long time. 

1015
00:55:36,700 --> 00:55:39,400
And they didn't, they kind of 
kind of Cared about it, maybe 

1016
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,200
they care about it more now. 
So, spotify's whole thing was 

1017
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,800
like, this is our, this is where
we can actually make money. 

1018
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:50,800
Eventually, if we can bring up 
ad Revenue, through gaining 

1019
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,800
audience, and like big 
podcasters, and then create a 

1020
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,900
long tail of smaller podcasters 
to come onto our platform and do

1021
00:55:56,900 --> 00:55:59,600
exclusives, or at least just 
beyond our platform at all. 

1022
00:55:59,900 --> 00:56:02,300
This is where we actually make 
margin compared to this shitty 

1023
00:56:02,300 --> 00:56:06,200
music business. 
I think they think in order to 

1024
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,400
make a big splash, you go after 
a whale and there's Joe Rogan is

1025
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,600
unparalleled in the world of 
podcasting as far as audience 

1026
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:18,700
goes, and I don't think they 
thought Beyond, we need as many 

1027
00:56:18,700 --> 00:56:22,300
ears as possible, who can 
deliver that and Joe is the 

1028
00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:24,400
first. 
And then after that, you've seen

1029
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,400
them go after and have like, 
really mixes set success. 

1030
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:31,900
They've had these big deals with
like Ava Duvernay and you know, 

1031
00:56:31,900 --> 00:56:37,100
Harry and Megan and like a lot 
of these Obama and fucking. 

1032
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,400
What's his name? 
Bruce. 

1033
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,400
A Springsteen. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1034
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,400
Like which I know no one who 
listened to that. 

1035
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,500
Even the memory is like, Bruce 
Springsteen diehards, so sorry. 

1036
00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:48,400
Yeah, yeah. 
And they sign these huge deals, 

1037
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:51,400
really scattershot success. 
Some of these things have not 

1038
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,700
even materialized at all. 
I think it's probably smarter to

1039
00:56:54,700 --> 00:56:57,600
go after the cult shows with 
cult followings. 

1040
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,900
Like I thought the gimlet 
acquisition was probably pretty 

1041
00:57:00,900 --> 00:57:05,700
smart because of how many people
like reply all and those types 

1042
00:57:05,700 --> 00:57:08,300
of shows and they actually have 
an editorial since ability. 

1043
00:57:08,300 --> 00:57:14,000
So so so I think over time 
perhaps if they do it well they 

1044
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,800
can build out this longer tail 
of small to medium-sized 

1045
00:57:18,100 --> 00:57:21,900
podcasters with decent 
followings, but I think they 

1046
00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:26,200
wanted to make a big splash with
a ton of listeners and Joe was 

1047
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,600
Joe Rogan. 
Was that person? 

1048
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:34,000
And they didn't think through 
all the shit that comes with 

1049
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,400
him. 
Initially gimlet, seems so much 

1050
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,800
smarter because you have An 
editorial operation. 

1051
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,000
Give that we now. 
Can I Tom? 

1052
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,700
I'm sorry. 
Hi Tom's and I get one it's it 

1053
00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:47,900
was I mean like look it's been a
while since I've reported on 

1054
00:57:47,900 --> 00:57:49,900
Spotify. 
So I can't speak to like the 

1055
00:57:49,900 --> 00:57:52,600
current Thinking Inside the 
company as of like a year and a 

1056
00:57:52,607 --> 00:57:55,300
half ago, this was not a well 
thought of deal within the 

1057
00:57:55,300 --> 00:57:57,300
company. 
The amount of content gibbler's 

1058
00:57:57,300 --> 00:57:59,700
doing, I'm not saying gimlet was
a profitable, a no. 

1059
00:57:59,700 --> 00:58:02,600
I mean, I'm just saying to solve
The Joe Rogan problem to have a 

1060
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,700
brand in between you and I want 
to push back on this idea of The

1061
00:58:05,700 --> 00:58:07,900
Joe Rogan problem. 
Look, we think of it as a 

1062
00:58:07,900 --> 00:58:09,300
problem because Does this guy is
push? 

1063
00:58:09,300 --> 00:58:12,000
You know, consistently having 
anti-vaccine people on this 

1064
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,400
podcast and that's like pissing 
people off that guy is brought 

1065
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,200
listeners. 
The show has continued to grow 

1066
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,700
while it's been at Spotify. 
We might think it has like major

1067
00:58:20,700 --> 00:58:23,700
implications for public health 
and we need to book some 

1068
00:58:23,700 --> 00:58:26,300
anti-vaxxer people. 
I mean, learned learned from the

1069
00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:29,200
best, you know, Aaron he's kinda
TS up first. 

1070
00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:35,700
Yeah, I hear it Kris from it as 
well and I was like, oh 

1071
00:58:35,700 --> 00:58:38,400
whatever, we'll do our own 
thing, but he was selling for 

1072
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:40,600
Million. 
We usually take some clinking, 

1073
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,400
this got something? 
Yeah. 

1074
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:44,600
Yeah, during Peterson. 
Are you listening? 

1075
00:58:45,700 --> 00:58:50,800
Yeah, yeah, we're all on 
tiebacks at someone but no look 

1076
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:54,400
like, I think Joe Rogan has 
obviously hugely problematic. 

1077
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,200
Like I don't even need to defend
that point. 

1078
00:58:56,300 --> 00:58:57,900
Has it been an implosion for 
Spotify? 

1079
00:58:57,900 --> 00:59:00,500
I'd argue not I think there's 
obviously consequences to what 

1080
00:59:00,500 --> 00:59:03,700
they've done, but if you look at
like, okay, 200 million for Joe 

1081
00:59:03,700 --> 00:59:06,900
Rogan, which like, yeah, by the 
way, very very impressive work 

1082
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:08,400
by you guys. 
Unearthing that. 

1083
00:59:08,500 --> 00:59:11,200
Number and is like a great 
lesson to reporters that just 

1084
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,200
because a number has been 
previously reported, it's 

1085
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,100
probably worth checking in on it
and not just like, looking back 

1086
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:18,900
at the same number being like, 
as was worried, you know, 

1087
00:59:18,900 --> 00:59:21,800
because again, can't tell you 
how much fighting we had to do 

1088
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,000
to get. 
It was that was an intense, one 

1089
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,300
Katie Rosman is the star there, 
but like, but that was the story

1090
00:59:27,300 --> 00:59:29,000
right now. 
Going to get between Katie 

1091
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,800
Rosman and a fact, like she will
fucking cut you even though she 

1092
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:36,400
has a lot of yoga and whatever. 
And she's all like she will 

1093
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,600
destroy you. 
If you do Give her something 

1094
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:40,700
right? 
Yes, right, no. 

1095
00:59:40,700 --> 00:59:43,200
I mean that the story was very 
well, presented and packaged in.

1096
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,000
Like the New York Times way that
like brought together a lot of 

1097
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,900
strands of, you know, what had 
previously been reported and you

1098
00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:52,000
know helping to like elucidate 
the strategy that others had may

1099
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,000
be done as clearly but the story
to me like what was like on that

1100
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,000
was the hospitably knew was was 
you know, this 200 million thing

1101
00:59:58,000 --> 00:59:59,500
but that's what made it good 
like. 

1102
00:59:59,500 --> 01:00:02,500
That's like it was a it was I'm 
proud of what we did 

1103
01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:05,500
writing-wise, but I think you 
gotta think the best stories 

1104
01:00:05,500 --> 01:00:07,100
have like that. 
Like, boom. 

1105
01:00:07,300 --> 01:00:09,900
And then after that, it's A 
pleasant read and you learn 

1106
01:00:09,900 --> 01:00:11,500
something, right? 
Because it's like you got to 

1107
01:00:11,500 --> 01:00:14,700
impress, you got to impressive, 
like you gotta impress like the,

1108
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:16,300
you know, the people that cover 
this data day. 

1109
01:00:16,300 --> 01:00:18,400
So you have like a one nugget 
that's just like, all right. 

1110
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:25,700
Take that Lucas da each know I 
like Lucas. 

1111
01:00:38,500 --> 01:00:40,500
For, he's great. 
I really enjoy that. 

1112
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,500
This is the best. 
People are the ones who make me 

1113
01:00:43,500 --> 01:00:46,700
curse them, but I also like 
them, like they're not assholes 

1114
01:00:46,700 --> 01:00:49,900
and those are are very few 
people who I dislike. 

1115
01:00:49,900 --> 01:00:52,900
I think in this industry 
actively but the ones that are 

1116
01:00:52,900 --> 01:00:55,100
fun or people like Lucas who's 
very good as job. 

1117
01:00:55,100 --> 01:00:57,100
But also, I like him as a 
bright. 

1118
01:00:57,100 --> 01:00:58,900
Any tweets a lot. 
And you understand that? 

1119
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:02,000
Yes, yes, I do. 
All right, so how do we land 

1120
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:03,300
This Plane? 
How do I write us? 

1121
01:01:03,300 --> 01:01:07,200
And we can all go back to 
working, when can people watch 

1122
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,200
the show? 
How can you know what's your, 

1123
01:01:10,500 --> 01:01:17,500
what's your venmo know? 
Yeah, so February 27th. 

1124
01:01:17,500 --> 01:01:20,100
Sunday coming up in just a few 
days. 

1125
01:01:20,100 --> 01:01:24,900
Now, first episode, It's on 
Showtime. 

1126
01:01:24,900 --> 01:01:27,100
I believe you. 
Yeah, you can subscribe. 

1127
01:01:27,100 --> 01:01:29,900
It's there's a Showtime app 
which I have because I cut the 

1128
01:01:29,900 --> 01:01:35,600
cord so you can still actually 
watch that I and seven episodes 

1129
01:01:35,900 --> 01:01:38,000
serial release over the next 
seven weeks. 

1130
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:42,400
So, Yeah, and then if you can't 
see it day of but that you will 

1131
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,200
see that. 
Someone just told me there's a 

1132
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:48,300
billboard on the 101 going, 
north now for it, so it's kind 

1133
01:01:48,300 --> 01:01:50,300
of inescapable at this. 
Yeah. 

1134
01:01:50,300 --> 01:01:52,400
Yeah. 
Congratulation in the Bay Area. 

1135
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:54,600
Lord. 
If you listen to this podcast, 

1136
01:01:54,900 --> 01:01:57,500
you should probably watch this 
show because I think we're going

1137
01:01:57,500 --> 01:02:02,400
to be talking about it a lot. 
So if only to harassed and these

1138
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:04,400
shared Universe, you know, we 
won't let it. 

1139
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:08,000
We won't let our affection for 
Mike bias. 

1140
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,900
Wow. 
That's a big plug for the 

1141
01:02:10,900 --> 01:02:15,800
producers of billions. 
Don't watch it because these 

1142
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,400
guys made billions watching us, 
you won't follow along with, 

1143
01:02:19,700 --> 01:02:23,400
you'll be totally lost. 
They're listening to dead cat. 

1144
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:25,800
They're listening. 
Do you think most of you will? 

1145
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:28,200
Most of the people who listen, 
this my guests, listen to it 

1146
01:02:28,300 --> 01:02:30,500
week-to-week. 
Not not just like coming to the 

1147
01:02:30,500 --> 01:02:32,900
episode because Mike's, I think 
we're going to get a huge Spike 

1148
01:02:32,900 --> 01:02:39,100
because of Mike on the show. 
So you in particular, To 

1149
01:02:39,100 --> 01:02:41,100
continue to listen to the 
podcast because they're very 

1150
01:02:41,100 --> 01:02:42,400
invested. 
Yeah. 

1151
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:45,900
In my if you're at the lodge and
this is Eric says Eric's 200 

1152
01:02:45,900 --> 01:02:49,200
million dollar strategy. 
Strategy is riding on right? 

1153
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,800
Mike thank you for coming on. 
Thank you so so much. 

1154
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:53,500
Thank you for having me. 
This is super fun. 

1155
01:02:54,100 --> 01:03:08,700
Thanks 
goodbye goodbye goodbye. 

1156
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:09,600
Bye. 
Goodbye. 

1157
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,900
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1158
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:09,600
Bye. 
Goodbye. 

1159
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,900
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye.