Welcome, thanks for joining us on dead cat.
We're here with Mike Isaac. My former is day colleague at
the New York Times. I ran away to Washington.
D.c. he stayed in San Francisco like the smart person.
He is, then he went on to write a book about Poober which is now
going to be a television series premiering on Showtime quite
Soon, Mike will give us more details and he just wrote a
great story about Spotify. So there's a lot to talk to Mike
about today and Mike. Thanks for being here.
Thank you for having me t - how many days till the premiere?
Mike. It is February 27th.
Sunday night on Showtime is coming up.
So, like, if it comes out on Tuesday, probably like really
close five days, have you have you watched it yet?
So, I just watched episodes last night.
Well, I know, like, I had It's funny because I have had.
So, this whole experience has been wild.
Like, I've never done anything like this at all, but like,
they've been when I first signed this whole thing, my publisher
was like, don't even think that it's going to get made all this
shit like options get bought all the time and nothing happens.
So I went in with very low expectations but they've been
Brian David and Beth the show Runners.
Have been super cool and like involves me a lot and stuff.
So I've had access to what are called All the dailies like The
Daily Show reels that they shoot or whatever, and I can sort of
watch that, but I am just they're starting to send out
screeners actually. We're probably gonna bug you
guys soon because they're starting to send out screeners
to folks who might want to watch them.
And Eric, I was going to email you great.
Yeah if you want to see it. So yeah of course I did watch
it. Why did you push did you push
back anything in production? Sort of factually or truth East
- or were you pretty chick definitely?
Yeah. Yeah, I think you can like I
think there are definitely people who are like this is so
stupid. I don't know.
I was My role was like, fact guy, basically, like I think
which was appropriate for me and my day job or whatever as a
journalist. So I was like, this is what
happened. You guys obviously are creative
types can do whatever you want, but I can.
And so they would go to me for like, yeah.
Like, what is Larry Page like or what is, or what did you know?
I know which is a whole other. How much time do you have?
Exactly. Oh my God, I watch the Larry
Page episode. It's so So it's going to be role
of a lifetime. I mean, it's so good.
You know, who's lying? It's really.
It's fascinating. It's do you remember the guy on
Mad Men Who Went Crazy? The like what is your offer?
Yes. Yes against me.
Yes, /. Yes, that really?
Where he is so good. I can't.
It was his nipple by the way that he co-hosts Was it really
big? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Van. Gogh.
Who come? Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
All artists though he was also in Silicon Valley to he's really
cut out a niche for himself. Well, the lawyer is yep.
Yeah, forgot about that. That's really interesting.
Well, like these guys Brian and David the guys who do billions
just kind of weirdly know everyone in like I always sort
of run into folks, not even in Hollywood whatever.
Like in techland who are like, Oh yeah, I've known Brian for
whatever. His father was a music industry
exec so they the cameos are it's I'm just super I was really
worried. I was like I don't know if this
is going to be good. I hope people like it, you know.
And it's the cast is amazing. I mean yeah it's it's just
they've been able to get so many great people.
Have you interacted with the cast at all as part of this?
Yeah, I got to go down to the set in La.
It was actually good timing because it was right between
When we all got vaccinated and before like Delta Omicron my
fucked everything up. And so I got to go and like hang
out on this the studio lot for a few days and got to meet Joseph
Gordon-Levitt and Kyle Chandler. They're both like it was really
like everyone. I guess I have to be nice to me,
but they were actually regularly really nice people and very
sharp like, super curious. Joe is like super interested and
curious about the tech industry and in ways that like, I just
got, he's got a company, he's got like a digital media company
and yeah, I run into him from time to time at things like he
definitely really circuit. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I
ran into him early days like when I lived in La was like
bumming around in Hollywood. That's cool.
That's a different story. Who are you inspiring actor,
Tom. Am I an inspiring actor for him
and a aspiring. And I wasn't that much bumming
around. No, I was just sitting in.
I was I was an assistant on the movie, g.i.
Joe, the Rise of Cobra. I was an assistant to the
producer and I came in for the last three weeks and I probably
was there for the worst part of the movie as far as Joe is
concerned because you know what ADR is and movies like when they
have to. Yeah they like going after a
movie is It and like when they want to have the censored
version of it, they have the actors go into a booth and
instead of them saying like a shit, you know it's like Joseph
Gordon-Levitt being like shoot yeah really them doing like 30
takes of this or like alternate endings and all this other
stuff. They just recording the sound
booth so they can tweak the movie if they need to at the
end. And so, I was there for that.
I would just sitting in the sound booth, just doing nothing.
Which is what most people in Hollywood do.
As you probably saw in South, you were like dream.
Why do people not do anything here?
They just sit down and watch everyone.
Else do things. There's so many folks had just
sort of Milling around, I guess doing something or like they
have one very specific job that I'm not sure what it is.
But yeah, and if they don't do it, they're fired.
But otherwise they have nothing to do.
But anyways, I was just sitting there.
I really had nothing to do but but he was there with the
director. Wasn't there to like coach him
through his leg? Shoot, darn crap.
And he got super pissed about this.
He was like, why is no one directing me?
And so he walks keep this is Joseph.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he walked out of the
session. He was so pissed.
God, that's he stormed out but as he was walking out, he looked
over at me and he was like, I'm sorry you had to see that.
Oh my God, I love it. He was like just self-conscious
enough to understand. Yeah.
And so then, I've gone better. Right?
Right. So, that's that's what makes
these people great mediocre actors and then it so like
flash-forward, like six years or seven years later.
Something I'm at web Summit in Lisbon and he's there to
promote. Boat hit record which is like
his digital media company. Yeah.
And I randomly I shared a cab with him and his like people on
the way to it and it would have been a great full circle moment
for me to have like told him like oh yeah you remember that
time but he wouldn't. Hopefully not the type
screaming. Shoot darn.
Yeah, but Joe is as we're calling him.
I've never met the man, he goes. My Joey Joey he's playing Travis
right calendar. Great.
What a casting what? What do you think he pulled sort
of most truthfully from from Travis, as you know?
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think probably all of us have met
Travis at some point over the years, maybe.
Yeah. I think sometimes.
Yeah. Katie, you know, yeah.
Yes. I haven't.
Sorry. I met him.
Yes. So like you know how intense the
guy is? Unlike just sort of every level.
Just very I guess the thing that That that I was excited about is
like this is very casting against type for Joe, I would
say like, you know, aside from maybe GI Joe, although I did not
see that movie he's, you know, you know him as like five
minutes or summer. Yeah.
Right. Like just very sort of and he's
just that's not him in the show at all you know, like obviously
Travis is not going to be starring in 500 Days of slavery.
That was helpful. Not a beta.
The summer, that's the thing he would start.
But I'm sure like if you're directing Joe in this and the
direction is like, you got to be intense, dude.
Like actors like that. Like that's something they can
dig into the Chimes. I know nerdy though.
He's not just yes. And he captures that sort of?
Yeah, I think I think they I mean a lot of they use really
technical language, like I appreciate it in the script,
they incorporate pretty technical language and they have
fun with it. They you know, Have to take
Liberties, just for storytelling and like, like, you can't.
I think any Tech movie that didn't do that would be very
boring and hard to watch. So, like, I think they sort of
explain these Concepts that are pretty sophisticated in ways
that the audience can kind of digest, which I think is good.
And then also, like assumes that the audience is intelligent
enough to sort of grasp onto these things.
But he's definitely, he's got the, like, sort of rapid-fire
thinking. Down like intensity.
But also knows how to geek out on on things.
Like you said, like, he's not an obvious nerd.
I guess is what you would say. If you just see his sort of
public Persona, you don't necessarily think nerd, but I
think that's totally right. And so, I think he think he
really gets that and I don't know.
He's is he the villain? I mean, it's sort of, it's sort
of like, in the book, like what is villain, who's the villain of
this story, right? He's like the protagonist /
antagonist, right? And Mike similar with Kyle
Chandler as girly, he's like you, like you, there's a version
of you rooting for him, but at the same time, like he's also
like a pain in the ass of Travis, right?
You know, or like someone that's just sort of at least in you
know the way they portrayed in the show they're just sort of of
these characters who are close and then are driven apart and
then ultimately comeback against each other.
So I think it's I thought which was what was really cool about
it. Is they kind of did the same
thing that I try to do in the book which is like we don't have
a clear, clear hero. You know.
And you don't want to just totally one dimensional eyes
Travis because he's rounded flawed person.
I guess, you know, and I think I do like Joe in the show.
Honestly, I think that people did, like Travis in real life
and that was one of the things that was perplexing, perhaps in
the media representation of Travis, so many stories about
boober, especially, that was it 2017?
Got a pretty negative and the News was - the facts were -.
So as a reporter, you couldn't really capture the fact that he
is a fun and interesting and weird person.
And that is actually part. Yeah.
And that's part of who he is. And is why here?
One of the other ways, that a given moment, you know, but
that's why he could be the person he was Like you can't,
you can't do some of the things that we reported about, and have
people still come back for more, if you are not at least
charismatic in some way. It's interesting talking to
people at Hoover now, which I think of the people here.
I'm the only one who actually. Yeah, still over sure this
Market, News to be had about them.
But but it is interesting to talk to, you know, the class of
people that came up under Travis, the ones who transition
into the darker regime, the ones who only knew Uber under dhara
and they have such conflicted. You know, the first two groups
have such conflicted feelings about Travis because in one
sense, you know, if they're the ones complaining about dhara for
all the reasons that, you know, you could imagine you would
think like oh so Travis was better or you you must have been
a Travis Acolyte and they're like, Hey listen I'm no Travis
Defender, you know he caused me. Plenty of me misery or This was
really tough under him. I got these are the people who
make the vibe shift, the people who are not entered the
creepiest behind bars, right? Right.
Yeah. I don't know whether it's
actually lie, but I think like that sort of complexity that
you're describing about like is he a good?
Is he bad? Is he both, you know, is the
same thing that you were employers seemed like they were
constantly wrestling with, you know, even though he made them
fabulously wealthy and, you know, was the best time of their
lives and they were taken over the world and all that.
Crazy shit that I'm sure is going to drive the drama the
show, they're still upset, they're still like torn up about
it. They're still very conflicted.
I totally I think conflicted is exactly right I've never really
I mean there are folks who they're folks who take stances
but I think people are take like unilateral stances, but I think
a lot of the folks who have straddled certain eras or or
recognized eventually like they're definitely Travis people
who will just like be like yeah Travis ride or die but I think a
lot of the folks who were more self-aware feel really
conflicted about the guy and to this day, even some of the
people who were closest to him, still have really sort of
strange even And relationships, you know, and like I don't know.
I don't know if that ever changes with him, are there a
lot of composite characters or what sort of, who are the main
from the real fall of Travis. Like, I mean, Benchmark world,
like, Matt Kohler and Peter Fenton were cast right or what?
Yep, just give us, you know, this is sort of a real Silicon
Valley audience like who's yeah. It was really in it and who's
sort of like honey how do you prepare to play Peter Fenton?
By the way? Like what's with the research?
Yeah. Well, I don't like a whole,
there's like there's a press person but what like Jill, Hazel
Baker, Rachel Whetstone, and back home in her Birds until
like one sort of person. Or what's that about?
What if you're passing Peter Fenton, you got to have a jewel
Heiser pecker and it Rachel, I think they.
So there are composite Folks, I don't give away too much but
like there are again for like, storytelling purposes, I think
you have to sort of merge certain people into like one
person to represent. I'm the person who comes and
talks to you about ex issue that we have 4X engineering thing
that we do or working on like how they get around apples.
You know, detection stuff on how they were sort of duping Apple
for a while and like so, there is definitely.
Finally some folks who, or, or like, there's this character
called Hendricks, who is like the security type, dude, who's
kind of stands in, for someone who might have done the Ripley
stuff that you guys reported on and like, or the, or great ball
or like, like people who kind of represent different parts of
what Uber was doing in different parts of its existence.
And so I think that I think, I think it works because like,
again, you don't need to get every sort of detail in terms of
who is involved in how, but I think they sort of get it across
in a way that. And that's the other thing like
you and I are all of us here. Kind of know how to or when we
when we, when you're watching it, you're going to be like, oh,
ha ha, you know, I get that or I know what really happened there,
right? But like getting like normal
people to like digest and understand Usher, the shows not
terrific if the show is built for us, that would be it, it's
right now. They do a lot of those Concepts
into things and then they, they had like, David Drummond is a
character in the show or languages thing it's 777s.
I mean, it feels, I mean, it is going to be the fun of watching
the show but a lot of the drama sort of in the book and just
there was a was, like, sort of Board stuff but then I'll
obviously all the scandals are, you know, engineering sort of
driven. So I'm interested to see just
how they, how they sort of cover all that ground or like, is it a
try to cover it all or they try to mostly anyway, you don't have
to spoil but just watch the show.
I think they do a good job of I mean, it's funny because all of
us lived through 2017, but a lot of 2017 was retroactively
digging up all the shit that happened in the past, right?
So a lot of a drama for us was like later but I think that you
can cover it in a way where it's built into the arc over time,
right. And so I think they do a good
job of doing that. I think they also they wanted to
tease out the Travis. This bill divide more.
And so, I mean a lot of this is just sort of like how do you
tell how do you do this right for the screen?
And it's a lot of like character arcs.
And like what are these characters need to do over time?
They need to be antagonists and sort of like funding and like a
relationship that builds and changes and then ultimately
dissolves as we know from reality.
So like so I think that's where the creative Sort of dramatic
storytelling part comes into it. So even if it's not, this is
exactly what we know how it happened and when it happened I
think they sort of use that in the Arc of like okay rise and
fall over seven episodes. Make it work like that so yeah
this is but was there a was there a specific thing?
You just drew a heart. You were like you need to get
this fact right or you need. Was there a thing where you I'm
translating the book to the show that stands out to you or that
was like a Big issue. I know.
I don't know. It's a good.
I'm trying to think if there was a moment.
So the fun one. Cool thing was that I was there
were these we did two writers rooms in each room was so what a
room is is like they get all the writers on the show, the show
Runners, and then you have like writers for each episode.
So like a different writer will do, right?
One episode. So we had like six or seven
people and then the show runners go back over the script and Add
their stuff, and like their dialogue.
They want and, like, ask for this and that.
And so, so that this group of people convened and they wanted
me to come in. So I came into and I did it, and
it was for five days a week, like, two hours every morning.
This is all before my job, my actual job, and then for 10
weeks. So it was really intense.
Well, just sort of like, yeah, it's a lot and then we did that
twice. So there was a 10-week stretch
CH very early on in the pandemic and we all did this over zoom.
And then there was another ten weeks stretch later on, as they
were very internalized, this trip.
Yeah, it was I. So, and this is the sort of
Protection. I think I have just in terms of
like, real world stuff. I was very, I was very much
present and got to be there for a lot of it, but also was the
sort of like, here's how it went, down person like Ike.
And there's a way of doing that where I could have been, like,
Captain come down. Like, I can't do that.
But like, there weren't that many moments that they were
really good about picking out details in the book and trying
to bring those out a little bit more, you know?
And then I mean there there will be things that I'm sure Valley
folks will pick at absolutely but I think that's going to
happen in any industry or but they do that with newspaper
story too. So it's like a new thing.
Yep. The other thing I would say is
they're very Bryan and David touches because if your watch
billions, you kind of know, their aesthetic and their rapid
fire talky like pop cultural references, they like to throw
in and so they, so like there's the It was definitely, you know,
how Valley folks operate, but also, through Bryan and David's
writing style, and size, you know, right?
Just like you would see, you would know how a particular
screen writer writes different things.
It's like it's like that and so they definitely put their touch
on it. I guess is what I'm is Arianna.
Huffington is obviously very good at making haryana.
She always comes out of anything.
Looking good. I feel like no matter, no matter
what she comes out looking. Well, does she come out of this
show? Looking good.
Ha ha ha. I think the I think it depends
on you. How you saw her come out of the
book looking? You know I think it I think they
try to sort of really tease out. I mean if your cast as Uma
Thurman in a show It's probably hard.
Not to look exactly. You know like I got I can't even
tell you how many people. Well, like message me saying,
are you fucking kidding me? This is not a happy.
He's there. Agree.
I forget, I have to go back to the book, but I mean, my Ariana
was someone sort of hated by both the pro and I anti Travis
sides by the end, because she was Pro Travis for longer than
people would have liked. But then obviously Travis
demands, absolute loyalty and she wasn't, she comes around to
sort of the DAR decision and then is out on the Travis side
and is left with very few friends and Uber world.
I mean, I don't know. Would you agree with that?
No, I know honey. I think Ariana is always team
Ariana, right? And like you said like she
always lagging. Can't tell us lands on her feet.
I mean I write like the way we did that profile of her the
upshot was she's always going to be fine and she always comes
out. Fine and everybody was so mad
because they wanted her to fail and I was like this is not a
person who's ever going to fail so you wishing for that.
Well if you're in telling you is the fact his Public Image making
that I want to be good at is having a good Public Image.
I know where that is. Yeah, if you optimize for that
you'll always come out. See it was funny that you said
she comes out looking good because that's never her.
I don't think her Emma was coming out looking good.
I think she's nothing. Come out unscathed, right?
Like I just unscathed but come out with some sort of advantage
that propels our to her next thing, right?
And I think she's very very good at that and uniquely so and if
people resent her for it, I get it.
But at the same time. Like but she doesn't care.
If they resent her, she doesn't who cares.
If your eyes on the prize, baby, every time you move from thing,
to thing, you gain more power or you gain something.
Who cares that? If somebody resents you, the
only thing I was going to say on that is she always seems to find
just when I was writing the book and sort of tracing her
ascendance I guess like she always seems to find this next
little thing that actually is going to be a thing.
You know. Like I mean, she like Huffington
Post kind of decimated news before anything else did in a
way that did very well for, you know, and like, and just give
her right, you know? Like the whole thing people
forget that. It was so scammy but then she
kind of was there at the Forefront of like we're going to
sell Health in this like very 100% packaged way like health is
now going to become something that you can buy.
How is the show going to change the way the public thinks about
boober? Right?
Because it felt like uber was something one the public didn't
think about it, all right? When it was a Silicon Valley
Obsession, it was just like a thing that you used and then
became part because of all these critical media stories, Uber
became kind of The public Touchstone for bad Silicon
Valley, like this is what's bad about the tech industry.
Yes. And then everyone forgot about
the Uber again. So how is this going to
re-establish? The Uber, like, Public Image or
change it? I think that for, I think that
we think we know how normal people think about Silicon
Valley in a very different way than reality, meaning we have a
very like, we have a very strong conceptual.
Option of what these companies are, what the valley is.
I don't think normal. People have any real great
thinking about what it's like inside of boober or even inside
of Google Facebook. A lot of these, I think people
so Facebook is probably the best example.
I think people's Vision version of what they think Facebook is
like is still from The Social Network movie, Whatever 10-15
years ago, right like which was totally fabricated right.
Which was it's very fabric of percent what I thought of
Facebook Are right and it sticks with you.
And that's, I think that's how, you know, again, like all of us
are very much deeply entrenched in what it's like today.
And a lot of these companies and, you know, just sort of what
the vibe of the values. Like, I think normal people are
so far removed from that, they and even like you said, with the
Uber story, it was not. People had no idea about a lot
of different parts of this. They didn't know.
It was only a black car app for a very long time, they didn't
know. Lift was first to peer-to-peer
stuff, they didn't like just sort of things that they take
for granted now because they're so ubiquitous didn't really
recognize any of this. So I think for for anyone who
watched the show just like can get like some sense of history
and in kind of how things actually went down and kind of
what what it looked like inside. And I think that's instructive
hopeful and I think I don't know it'll be interesting to see It's
hard to capture a lot of these companies in a really compelling
way for TV. Just because like coding is, I'm
boring. Yeah.
Like the tech stories unless you unless in this particular case
we got lucky because the story was actually insane.
Right. But like a lot of tech company
histories are not that a new bursley, physical world.
And you know there's so much they're real.
I mean that's why great ball is exciting.
It's like, oh, you're invading some sort of law enforcement.
All right, you know that it's very different even if you're on
Facebook and I don't know, doing something with government that
that sort of still like, I'm sure yeah, exactly.
Right - exactly. It's seen some sniping right?
And it's things that like, you know, me affect people's lives.
I mean that's why super pumped was so great, why you?
No bad blood was so great, is that it makes this important
connection that to get people to care about this shit, which is
like, well who's really being affected by any of this stuff?
If it's just like money that evaporates because it was a bad
idea or their work. Animals involved.
Okay, sure. But also like, you know, who are
the people at the bottom of the chain that are, you know, not
operating the same way. Now, because of the thing that
happened at the top 100 percent and the social, The Social
Network is such an interesting example because that movie came
out before I cover Tech, right? So that was 20 2009. 2010 2010,
I was covering Wall Street so my only all that.
I know about the tech industry came from that movie because I
had literally zero interest in it before.
Yeah. And so my in, but this is the
difference. So this is like now, I know that
a lot of the movie was not true, right?
But the sense that you got of the company and the sense that
you got from the people involved, was it still accurate
on some level? When was that would be in time
on social networks, right, I never got bullshit, right?
I mean, yeah, any idea that so much of the central conflict was
Zuckerberg not having like a girlfriend or whatever.
Or write out the tension when he had a strong girlfriend, like,
throughout who is involved because it's Aaron Sorkin, like
he's a one-dimensional grants, like he owed me.
We can talk about this thankfully with Mike before we
see the show. But let's see.
I thought that the central I got this Central tension was not
about the girlfriend. I thought the central tension
was between he and the Winklevoss.
I, well, that's answer and Andrew Garfield.
A key part of what made his sort of humanity was the relationship
with a girlfriend. Which just was what was driving
and not actually true and it I did find that super it allowed.
Sort of, I think tech people in the know to sort of say, well,
that's not really what motivated soccer bright.
But now we're now for probably very few people could tell you
the other plot points of movie that came out 12 years ago, but
the sense of the company that it left is one that remained,
right? So I had actually literally
forgotten that the girlfriend was even a part of this movie,
but that Rudy, By the interrelationships in the movie.
But I forgot about the fact that their girlfriend was even a
factor in the plot, but the sense of the company, which is a
Founder, who is a moral who, you know, feels the he's driven,
right? Maniacally driven nicely driven
and wave over anything. That's all.
I remember about that movie but, you know, so that I think that's
sort of like why the public feels that way about Mark
Zuckerberg in some ways and it has nothing to do with being
able to To actually remember any of the plot.
Well, I think we all agree. Yeah, the mood from a movie, or
a piece of content is going to inform people way more than
write the Articles we right. So and so the show and bring
about very much but what will the impression be that it leaves
of Travis, right? And is that different from the
impression that the news has left?
I think so. I think so a, I have that that
just in exploring this exploring and really thinking hard about
Facebook, because I am doing a another book on Facebook next,
which I'm going to have to go start working on, not start.
Go continue after this podcast, right?
Right, is there an era or what's the central?
I think it's, I think it's gonna be well, it's funny that you're
mentioning the, and this is why I bring it up is because I ate
part of why I want to do it is because of how much people think
of Facebook as The Social Network are 20 2011 or whatever
the hell. It was 2010 2011 I think people
don't really know what drives Mark and Cheryl to do what they
do and I think it's much more nuanced and not necessarily in a
flattering way, I think there's but not necessarily an
unflattering way. I just think that people are
complicated and it It it has it is the similar impulse that I
had with Travis, right? Like he's not your hero, he's
not your villain. He's a flawed person and I think
that's what makes him interesting.
And what makes the arc, so fun to write about, how do you have,
you talked to Travis, since your courtroom scene, where he's at
least last time I spoke to him in real life?
I mean, as you guys know, there are there are ways of getting to
him. But like I think that I think
that was literally the last time we ever interacted and trick.
Ends or whatever, it's been a while, but go back to the
answering that like, so what is, how will this show?
What will the public perception of Travis be after the show?
And how is that different from what we have?
I really think. I think that you are correct
before in saying the view of Travis from from my coverage,
from other folks has coverage. As it was unfolding was probably
like big scary Tech bad guy. I don't think that's what he is.
For better or worse, I guess, and I don't think that's what
the show portrays them. As I think the show sort of
maybe, there are people who watch the show who like him or
Founders, who sort of get it, you know, I still talk to people
in the valley today who are like, you know, benchmark fucked
up. They should not have done this.
There's a few people who are very like strongly against it.
So I think it I think they do a good job of sort of showing that
he was a driven guy but also Some of the things that made him
great or the things that end up doing him in in the end.
So he's our friends, our characters in the show.
Yes. Angie and Gabi are both.
Yeah, I think that would be interesting.
I'm excited to see how those inform his ark.
Yeah, he's definitely. They are a big part.
I want to go back to something. You said, a while ago in this,
which was that you weren't expecting them to make this
after it was optioned, right? It's like you can a check for
the option, which is awesome. Mike and I even remember, I even
remember when it happens, you know, and I covered media for a
while and so people were like, oh man, you know, the option
Mike's book and I was like, yeah, they're never going to
make it right? Because be even ever casting all
this stuff. We're like is this really, you
know, is this gonna happen? Or is it the blood can be pulled
at any point during these things and I had always thought like
there's just not enough people like to us, it's the biggest
deal in the world, right? Like I read all of your stories
and I was like yeah and I love the book and I was like oh yeah,
this is great drama but And it's like, who cares outside of just
us and, you know, Hollywood has to operate largely outside of
the things that we for people are interested in.
But then so, this coincides with what is like one of the topics
that tech people Tech journalists always get around to
which is this bubble of books and now shows based on these
these companies. Right.
I mean like I was at a party last night.
Missed you there. Mike.
I my back actually went out yesterday so I literally spent
the rest of the evening on my back.
And now I have a pillow back on the okay, right now.
I'm okay. Yeah.
But I had Katie remembers the era of me being, like, fucked up
in my back, so I feel terrible for missing that party.
I gotta call Elliot anyway, but I know but immediately cast
about another media party line. But so, you know, reporter there
had written a book about we work and in the background of the
party were screen. Of the Apple TV we work show
that is going be coming out in a couple of weeks with Jared Leto.
Is Adam Newman. My God, that's so funny.
What is that happening or yeah? Yeah.
Like there were episodes. There's a trailer out.
Hmm. Yeah.
Whose book is it off of or nobody's know it's based on re
vitamins book and then, you know, they're going to be making
the Katie you're in Mike, your colleagues on the Facebook,
being wait who? So there is a book on on.
There's an Apple TV show on On. We work that's coming out there
making a second season of Super Pump that's going to be based on
Facebook and maybe related to the book that you're putting
out. There is what is called super
pumped will it, or they're going to not really sure what their
title designation is, it's an apology pump: Facebook, right?
Okay, so is it Mike General name may be cool, I think, I think
they, I think for naming purposes, it might be good to
have continuity. I'm not exactly sure what
they're going to do, but we'll call it fucking metal mates meta
mates. Meta mate.
Fucked up but it's and then there's going to be also.
I think another Apple TV thing on on Shira and Cecilia's book.
So like we've gone from, you know my thinking like yeah
they'll option these things but nothing's going to happen from
it to it seems like they're green lighting everything and I
don't know from your perspective having been like part of the
bubble and like benefited from it and contributed to it like
what is happening like where is this coming from?
Is this just the success of Bad Blood and that Becoming like a
wider pop culture phenomenon where producers may be realized
like oh yeah there is you know an audience for these kinds of
things is it just like the growth of tech in all of our
lives and like we're trying to examine, you know, is it a
reflection of you know what we've built and who we are?
Is it just like a cash grab? Because these are streaming
services that just order content by the tonnage and they just
have to get more shows out there.
And so we like that's like Pele I do is rely concert.
I know, so I think there are I think there's not one given
thing. I think there are a lot of
things, a streamers desperately need content all the time,
right? Like and you have like this
streaming war going on. Where, again, what you said is,
you can't even remember, which thing it's playing on because
everyone has a streaming app right now.
If it's not Apple TV or Apple TV, Plus or whatever, whatever
it's called and it's Hulu, if it's not Hulu that it's Netflix,
it's not Netflix, then it's showtime which is we're super
pumped. His which is what you should
subscribe to if it's not Showtime than it.
Someone just you know send me their password to Showtime the
other day. I won't I do not recommend it if
it's not but like streamers all great job are exciting for
streamers all finest. We're gonna consume like show
however you can you know, but they all need to find content
and they're paying a lot of money for it and There's I mean,
they're the, the other thing that made me what was shocking
to me, is how much IP is like just snapping up books and book
rights to make a lot of these things.
Like a lot of really dramatic books that would work are the
are the one. So like so it's kind of like a
lagging indicator. The the the the movie options
and TV options are a lagging indicator.
I think of how many TV herb Tech books are being sold.
Which again, we went through a bubbled.
Are in like a ton of textbooks, what I think will be curious is
so my show is hitting at the same time, a few different shows
are hitting. I know there are a number of
articles in the works. Right now.
It's probably time to the premier's around like this very
Trend and like, what's going on here?
Why is this? I think so.
I think part of its streamers need content.
I think part of it is a bunch of different books on this.
I think part of it is Tech, is is A huge topic that we have all
covered for our jobs in a big way over the past five to seven
years. That was not covered the same
way generation previous. Let's say, you know, I mean,
Donald Trump's gone politics is boring text.
A better story, you know that market caps are kind of right.
Like you know I think when Wall Street was a big story before
collapse like on the come up it was 2006 7 and then eight,
obviously the collapse and so Pop culture or the processing of
that happens. Later The Wolf of Wall Street,
just like seven years later. The Big Short is like, 8 years
later. Even like the Lehman Brothers
movie was years later and you see a multi-year, stretch of
movies and television shows. Come out all about Wall Street,
like, does five to ten years after Wall Street.
The story itself that reporters covered, five to ten years after
that story is covered and reporters have done it.
The pop culture versions of it. It takes takes a few years to
digest and then like another few years to put out, so like the
last big Wall Street show is probably, I mean like billions,
right? Yeah.
And so, but between like the Lehman Brothers movie, I forgot
what it's called. But about like the fiction with
Demi Moore between that and billions is like.
So that's like what seven years of movies and television shows
about things that happened seven years before, you know, so this
is so few like about where the text or I was the ark, you kind
of the Because like 2016 and the come down is 2017.
Were in 2022. I think we've got another three
or four years of these shows and movies and to be clear.
We also don't know yet, how they'll be received, you know?
I'd like a super pumped is the first one, I've Sprite more or
less. I mean, you could maybe put
Silicon Valley but that's, I would say, I did well, that
Agora I was going to say the theranos all the there,
honestly, I'm not sure when that comes out but that's yeah,
that's the other word of 9V but, you know, they always get done.
Enter a podcast and television show about Mario's.
I mean, that's how it works. But I think right time I think
your point is right. Like we have a lot of it.
Now if everyone hates all of this, maybe it goes away, maybe
maybe we're like, all right, we tried doing the tech thing,
right? We're not optioning Tech stuff
anymore, you know. I think that well Hollywood is
full of followers, right? So we're tag reporter is in use
careers, hang on. This be successful.
There are ghosts all the high schools in.
Like let me explain you what a fucking option is, okay?
That's where you get into the game.
You want to option? Wow, Eric is a journalism
Professor is so immense to think I'm in the newsletter business,
which is his own bubble, right? Hustle.
So that's like comparing it to Wall Street, you know.
I think back to like the 80s and, you know, like the three
sort of big books that came out of like the financialization in
the 80s, you have Barbarian at the gates, you have liars poker,
and you have the launch by Apatow mentioned above, your
oven is bonfire of the vanities. And like, two of them are, like,
you know, journalistic recounting Zoar like narratives
in a nonfiction narratives about what it was like being in Wall
Street during that during that period Then you have bonfire of
the vanities which is this completely crazy fictional piece
and it's interesting to me that like the shows that are being
made right now are all mostly based on books and like real
companies that have imploded, Crazy dramas.
I don't think we've had like the really ambitious fictional just
purely fictionalized needs to come out in a wiener.
Did her book, right? Which is fictionalized.
Well, I read that. It's only know, it's like, I
think it's pretty true to life. It's autobiographical.
Yeah. Right.
No, that's not fictionalize. I think fictionalized versions.
Sort of came out, maybe too early and they were too facile
in some ways. So there's the moist Michaels
did a novel. Yeah.
They I feel a little off, like, one of the novel, The Circle,
right? All right, that was not quite
well, that was a terrible book. It's not because one of the
things that bonfire of the vanities, is that it not only
skewers Wall Street, it's accurate, right?
It's like cancer test but also like dead-on right?
And by remembering it, right? And yeah, it's very
knowledgeable. The tech critique novels they
were so interested in the critique that they didn't pay
attention to any of the other parts including character.
Total which speaks to a sort of scold E Period of our coal.
Right? We're live right?
And you over the head, right, fucking metaphor, right?
Right? Like, okay, which is why they
can't make any good like a rock or movies right now a decade
ago. That's what came out way before
the scolded culture became rich, just like it's just, they
weren't they. It's nobody's taking, it's not
Tom, Wolfe. He was like in some ways
himself, a person very embedded, in Wall Street, he clearly had
I'd like of point of view on it but he was just a funny writer
and he was willing to like you can't have like a funny
interesting account. Unless you actually are willing
to understand the thing, your skewering and you have some like
love for it to at a deep level. Yeah there's a Thomas pynchon
book about tech in the early 2000s called bleeding edge which
is like not great. It's not like it's like it's too
dense but it's incredibly knowledgeable you know like I
started reading it when I got an A Every attack and it's like
he's like fucking discussing like the specifics on how a
round is put together and like para passu and these like
extremely small Tech terms and is like I don't want to read
that now. Anyway, but we could guess
conclude the section being like it's, you know.
So we have this period that we're about to find out Reich,
whether anybody gives a shit about this stuff, right?
Yeah, Beyond us and it could inform, you know, whether it
will be like the next wave of these things.
Or this is just going to be, like, another fad, like, you
know, teen dystopia movies that they were all doing like 10
years ago that no one hears about anymore.
Or you know, if that's going to be like the tech, you know, the
tech collapse story of like the 22s or whatever you call it.
I mean I think it will. Yeah I will I think part of it
will depend on if people watch it.
If it's good. You know.
Like that's the other thing like because like some people I'm
obviously biased but I think the show is very compelling and like
very good so like I think it's it will depend on if the stuff
is acclaimed if this stuff like has legs or re-watch You're like
propulsive - the thing that I think really works with our
shows that you want to keep going, you know, and they're
doing a serialized release. So we each week is going to be
like, instead of just like, Netflix dumping everything it's
going to be, which I think is smarter actually to do.
So, it's I'm bullish on the tech movies and TV shows because I
think that people always want to see like we always want to
watch. Sort of a rise and fall and we
always want to watch sort of like the outside versions of all
the emotions. We already feel every day and
that's always best done through the stories of people who did it
on a bigger stage with more at stake.
So, like in, I feel like in the 80s in the 90s like sort of in
the 80s, you had all these like shows about like you know end of
the 90s about like Andy Warhol and things that were happening
in the 70s Glam Rock and that was sort of the stage A John,
which we were exploring those ideas, and then like after the
80s, you had a lot of Wall Street content.
And then, of course, after the wall street, collapse, it a lot
of Wall Street content. So Tech was for a while.
The way the culture. Our was funneling, our big ideas
about winning and losing and about like what it meant to take
risk and be like the go like great man, Theory stuff was all
just happening in Tech. So that's where we're going to
explore it for a little while and then there's going to be
some Rush of like horrific Washington, d.c. pop, That comes
out a decade from now I'm very curious.
I'm like already, like not into it but whatever.
So this is the fascinating thing about this era though because
like, you know, you want to talk about who cares about some of
the stuff, does it have a wider audience?
I never would have expected that a fucking show about a media
family and the boardroom fights and like who's going to take
over the company from their decrepit, criminal father is a
show that was going to be like a huge as I can see.
That's not what the show is about.
The show is about kids, who have a shitty dad, right?
Everybody wants to see that show, right?
And people have always liked to gawk at wealth.
I mean, wealth is always been something people have had those
right? And it's and it's funny.
But yeah, the the media immediately shrinkage not also
be funny Cask. I mean, we sort of touched on
this on the Alex Heath episode. It's been on my mind a lot and
it flows through both sort of the Uber and Facebook Stories.
I mean, just the, you know, whether the media is goal is to
like, unseat you Like a Travis or a Mark Zuckerberg, and we
sort of uber was in some ways, the test case where it was
there, I mean, we were both covering it.
It did feel like there were legitimate stories and I was
surprised, you know, when he was pushed out and, you know, so I
don't know, but there was definitely a sense that every
story was building towards will this guy be removed?
And then we saw her saw a version with we work.
They'll Maybe The journal was sort of more singular in sort of
that. And then with Facebook, it feels
right now that at least some pockets of the Facebook coverage
are really trying to unseat Mark Zuckerberg.
So I don't know. What do you, how do you think
about this sort of have played a big role in The Uber Saga
covering Facebook, where it does feel like the media is driving
whether these CEOs, you know, stay in their jobs.
Yeah. Coverage to me is fascinating
because I think there are folks and you can, I think there are
fine arguments on each side of like of this.
There are some people who are purely oppositional against
Facebook, right? They feel like they've sort of
decided Facebook is bad for the world, a Bad Company you know
like just sort of like that is their position that's definitely
their Twitter sort of stance and position and that's fine.
If that's what your outlet is. Allowing you to be or whatever?
I don't think that's my role. And so I and I but I also like I
also find it more effective to just sort of like let let things
sort of present things like as they are and then people can
sort of decide. This is great, this is awful or
whatever I agree with you. At the same time that like what
is the drum beat to all this intense coverage as it goes
along. And it does feel like the climax
is ultimately. Well, is this the buck stops
with you? Have you failed, should you
still be at the head of the company as the head of the
company? I think part of that is also fed
by being a public company and I mean maybe Uber is like the
exception of this but like shareholders also demand change
in times of like, great crisis, right?
You just saw that would Peloton and like them sort of ousting
the dude because of how Fucked up, it is.
And so I think that is kind of the backdrop as well, but I
don't know with Facebook, it feels different because of how
emotional people feel about it about the company and about
Mark, specifically. And I have a lot of mixed
feelings on what the coverage is, you know, but I obviously
like, critical coverage is good. I just think that, like, it's
interesting to see some folks just be like, this is my goal,
this is a bad company. I'm doing is sort of like taking
taking it out essentially, so I don't know.
I mean I think it's a valid position if that's what you want
to do but everyone has to sort of figure out what's
interesting. I mean, on the Uber story, you
know, they're all these scandals, but there was also
just, you know, Uber was a company that lost a lot of money
and like, wasn't really necessarily reforming its
business and there was some Financial pressure to just sort
of bring in a different strategy of what could be sort of.
Of a huge disaster under sort of a bill girly.
Way of thinking I mean given Facebook's enormous stock
declines like you do wonder if the piece of the puzzle that was
missing with Facebook was the actual financial problems you
know it was a great business so Mark Zuckerberg kept
consolidating power and the company works.
So who cares if they're scandals?
The media can scream all at once but things will continue.
But now we're really Seeing the stock market hit so not knowing
anything inside. That would finally be the piece
that would worry me if I were, I don't know Mark Zuckerberg, or
what's your read on that? I have heard that he has not
been in a good mood lately. I am like, it's funny because I
think I'm very curious if we look back in a few years and see
right now is some sort of turning point because it does
feel like they are in. I mean, it's funny because we've
always treated Facebook as or the coverage has been here is
all this stuff that they're doing whether it's intentional
or unintentional that has these secondary effects that can be
very awful. Right?
And how do you reckon with that? But at the same time, the
underlying sort of stable, you know, thing is like consistent
quarterly growth. Consistent profits, consistent
sort of like trust in leadership because they've been able to
sort of innovate their way into innovate.
Nevada. I mean, you know, copy or choir
choir, right into a sort of next successive, phase of staying on
top, at least in some markets. And I think that's now a
question mark where it wasn't in the past, like can they fix
their apple? Google sort of advertising
member measurement, issue around mobile devices which is rapidly
changing over the next few years and now are people going to go
start. Spinning add money, somewhere
else. That's like, I think that really
fucked up the stock. I think I think them hitting
growth ceilings on some of their legacy properties is fucking up
the stock. I think that there's like
they're like a bunch of different things that kind of
all happened. At once that they reported in
this earnings that made stocks made everyone sort of be like,
oh my God, is this some sort of ceiling that we should be
looking at? So I think it's more a question
mark that ever, you know, they're essentially saying We've
done this before. We can do it again.
You know, like, trust us because I'm Mark Zuckerberg and I'm
Sheryl Sandberg and where the Dream Team.
But, like, I haven't had many heard many great answers beyond
that so far, you know, you know, we've talked a lot about
Spotify, but just as, I don't question, you talked about how
much money you wrote a story recently, revealing the fact
that Joe Rogan had been paid, in fact, 200 million dollars with
the option for more to come to Spotify which is indicative of
this. Dia that for a company to stand
out in a really crowded media space, like podcasting, you have
to have a star. Now, do you think that both the
cost of Joe Rogan to get him and then the cost of having all of
your eggs in one star basket? Implode so spectacularly?
Do you think that that is going to have people?
It's going to cause people, especially in the podcasting
space. It's so crowded to rethink the
idea of a need for one star, one voice.
Yeah, I said well in talking to so I worked in the story with a
few colleagues who were all to just amazing reporting and
digging to find folks involved in this.
And like you have to remember Spotify was in a historically
shitty business where they were not making any money, for a long
period of time. Music is terrible, they make
like no money, the label, still have them over a barrel on just
like what you can get out of streams from artists and still
screwing artists on paying them very little.
Per stream, even if you are making millions of streams
everyday. So against that backdrop, they
needed to get into a different business and they needed to do
it quickly. They saw podcasting, is their
chance there. The field has been fragmented,
historically, I mean sub stack is looking at it and wants a
piece of it. Like, no one apple has kind of
squandered, whatever lead it might have had at some point by
its podcasting app, being terrible for very long time.
And they didn't, they kind of kind of Cared about it, maybe
they care about it more now. So, spotify's whole thing was
like, this is our, this is where we can actually make money.
Eventually, if we can bring up ad Revenue, through gaining
audience, and like big podcasters, and then create a
long tail of smaller podcasters to come onto our platform and do
exclusives, or at least just beyond our platform at all.
This is where we actually make margin compared to this shitty
music business. I think they think in order to
make a big splash, you go after a whale and there's Joe Rogan is
unparalleled in the world of podcasting as far as audience
goes, and I don't think they thought Beyond, we need as many
ears as possible, who can deliver that and Joe is the
first. And then after that, you've seen
them go after and have like, really mixes set success.
They've had these big deals with like Ava Duvernay and you know,
Harry and Megan and like a lot of these Obama and fucking.
What's his name? Bruce.
A Springsteen. Yeah, exactly.
Like which I know no one who listened to that.
Even the memory is like, Bruce Springsteen diehards, so sorry.
Yeah, yeah. And they sign these huge deals,
really scattershot success. Some of these things have not
even materialized at all. I think it's probably smarter to
go after the cult shows with cult followings.
Like I thought the gimlet acquisition was probably pretty
smart because of how many people like reply all and those types
of shows and they actually have an editorial since ability.
So so so I think over time perhaps if they do it well they
can build out this longer tail of small to medium-sized
podcasters with decent followings, but I think they
wanted to make a big splash with a ton of listeners and Joe was
Joe Rogan. Was that person?
And they didn't think through all the shit that comes with
him. Initially gimlet, seems so much
smarter because you have An editorial operation.
Give that we now. Can I Tom?
I'm sorry. Hi Tom's and I get one it's it
was I mean like look it's been a while since I've reported on
Spotify. So I can't speak to like the
current Thinking Inside the company as of like a year and a
half ago, this was not a well thought of deal within the
company. The amount of content gibbler's
doing, I'm not saying gimlet was a profitable, a no.
I mean, I'm just saying to solve The Joe Rogan problem to have a
brand in between you and I want to push back on this idea of The
Joe Rogan problem. Look, we think of it as a
problem because Does this guy is push?
You know, consistently having anti-vaccine people on this
podcast and that's like pissing people off that guy is brought
listeners. The show has continued to grow
while it's been at Spotify. We might think it has like major
implications for public health and we need to book some
anti-vaxxer people. I mean, learned learned from the
best, you know, Aaron he's kinda TS up first.
Yeah, I hear it Kris from it as well and I was like, oh
whatever, we'll do our own thing, but he was selling for
Million. We usually take some clinking,
this got something? Yeah.
Yeah, during Peterson. Are you listening?
Yeah, yeah, we're all on tiebacks at someone but no look
like, I think Joe Rogan has obviously hugely problematic.
Like I don't even need to defend that point.
Has it been an implosion for Spotify?
I'd argue not I think there's obviously consequences to what
they've done, but if you look at like, okay, 200 million for Joe
Rogan, which like, yeah, by the way, very very impressive work
by you guys. Unearthing that.
Number and is like a great lesson to reporters that just
because a number has been previously reported, it's
probably worth checking in on it and not just like, looking back
at the same number being like, as was worried, you know,
because again, can't tell you how much fighting we had to do
to get. It was that was an intense, one
Katie Rosman is the star there, but like, but that was the story
right now. Going to get between Katie
Rosman and a fact, like she will fucking cut you even though she
has a lot of yoga and whatever. And she's all like she will
destroy you. If you do Give her something
right? Yes, right, no.
I mean that the story was very well, presented and packaged in.
Like the New York Times way that like brought together a lot of
strands of, you know, what had previously been reported and you
know helping to like elucidate the strategy that others had may
be done as clearly but the story to me like what was like on that
was the hospitably knew was was you know, this 200 million thing
but that's what made it good like.
That's like it was a it was I'm proud of what we did
writing-wise, but I think you gotta think the best stories
have like that. Like, boom.
And then after that, it's A pleasant read and you learn
something, right? Because it's like you got to
impress, you got to impressive, like you gotta impress like the,
you know, the people that cover this data day.
So you have like a one nugget that's just like, all right.
Take that Lucas da each know I like Lucas.
For, he's great. I really enjoy that.
This is the best. People are the ones who make me
curse them, but I also like them, like they're not assholes
and those are are very few people who I dislike.
I think in this industry actively but the ones that are
fun or people like Lucas who's very good as job.
But also, I like him as a bright.
Any tweets a lot. And you understand that?
Yes, yes, I do. All right, so how do we land
This Plane? How do I write us?
And we can all go back to working, when can people watch
the show? How can you know what's your,
what's your venmo know? Yeah, so February 27th.
Sunday coming up in just a few days.
Now, first episode, It's on Showtime.
I believe you. Yeah, you can subscribe.
It's there's a Showtime app which I have because I cut the
cord so you can still actually watch that I and seven episodes
serial release over the next seven weeks.
So, Yeah, and then if you can't see it day of but that you will
see that. Someone just told me there's a
billboard on the 101 going, north now for it, so it's kind
of inescapable at this. Yeah.
Congratulation in the Bay Area.
Lord. If you listen to this podcast,
you should probably watch this show because I think we're going
to be talking about it a lot. So if only to harassed and these
shared Universe, you know, we won't let it.
We won't let our affection for Mike bias.
Wow. That's a big plug for the
producers of billions. Don't watch it because these
guys made billions watching us, you won't follow along with,
you'll be totally lost. They're listening to dead cat.
They're listening. Do you think most of you will?
Most of the people who listen, this my guests, listen to it
week-to-week. Not not just like coming to the
episode because Mike's, I think we're going to get a huge Spike
because of Mike on the show. So you in particular, To
continue to listen to the podcast because they're very
invested. Yeah.
In my if you're at the lodge and this is Eric says Eric's 200
million dollar strategy. Strategy is riding on right?
Mike thank you for coming on. Thank you so so much.
Thank you for having me. This is super fun.
Thanks goodbye goodbye goodbye.
Bye. Goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.
Bye. Goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.