Slide down the slide, Kara. Like when I was there to write a
profile for the Wall Street Journal and I'm like, no, I'm
not going to slide down your slide.
And they're like, slide down. Everyone does.
I'm like, I didn't like it at 4. I don't like it at 40, and I'm
not going to do it. They wanted it in the peace kind
of thing because we're childlike.
Well, I was like, you're childish.
I felt like like nostr fucking dumbest.
But I was like, what happens if Donald Trump loses the election?
Here's what he's going to do. He's going to go to his
followers online that he's already ginned up in a state of
rage because enragement equals engagement.
And he's going to tell them in the real world to do something
about it and and claim fraud because he's already starting
with the fraudulent stuff, right?
You could see him start it and he's going to do that.
And then they're actually going to stop the election.
They're going to try at least to stop the election.
I would rather have Ted Cruz make decisions about AI because
he's here's why he's elected by the people and they spent they,
they regulate pharmacies, cars, they regulate planes, they
regulate oil and gas. What they don't regulate is
tech. Kerris Wisher has spent decades
as the most feared journalist in Silicon Valley, and she's been
right about a lot of it. From calling out tech's
unchecked power while Washington looked the other way to warning
about the industry's drift toward right wing and manosphere
politics, her predictions have a way of aging uncomfortably well.
She's been a mentor to me. I went to her for advice when I
decided to leave my job at the mainstream media and go
independent. Now with a brand new CNN series,
Kara Swisher wants to live forever, she's turning the same
sharp eye on the longevity boom separated creating real science
from the Silicon Valley snake oil.
I want to say we talked about Sam Altman before there was a
Molotov cocktail thrown at his house and allegedly A gunshot
fired outside his house. So definitely don't want any
violence at Sam Altman's house. That said, we can still
criticize the open AICEO, as I do on this podcast, and we have
a great discussion about her closeness to Sam and whether she
came to his defense at his time of need when the board ousted
him in a way that we disagreed about.
Welcome to the Newcomer Podcast, hosted by me, Eric Newcomer.
I am the author of the Newcomer Newsletter, which covers the
business and people in the startups and venture capital
industry. Check us out at newcomer.co.
Thanks for listening. Does Kara Swisher want to live
forever? No, she doesn't.
She does a. Little cute in your.
Well, why not? I mean, it's, it's actually an
interesting question. It's it's, it's very, you know,
it's a very actually a very funny doc series too, because I
think one of the things that works really well in Pivot is
Scott and I are somewhat funny with each other and
individually. And so we it has that kind of,
you know, attitude. You're walking around a few
cemetery. Cemetery and everything.
And it's also emotional and personal, which I think works
well. But no, I don't No, my whole
thing is they all want to, you know, you go to visit Brian
Johnson. He's like, I don't want to live
forever. I want to don't die.
And I'm like, what is wrong with you?
Like, you know, it's although I have some mixed feelings about
him because I think he's an interesting character.
I've known him for a long time, but or covered him for a long
time and and I just thought it would be funny.
It was called something I'll I'll never die.
My wife thought it was like watch you die during the making
of it or something like that. And so it just, it's just, it's
obviously tongue in cheek. Yeah.
And you sort of get to the end where, I mean, you start off
saying, you know, you're reflecting on how Steve Jobs
thinks about death. He did, yes.
I but I mean he clearly sort of, I mean bungled.
He did, but let's not blame a dead person for death.
Like at this, at this point, at this point, you know, he did
realize the problems. It was too late, you know, and
ultimately, and he talked about it, you know, he talked about
that. And his family certainly is.
I've talked to them about it and I think it's, you know, it's he
still had a very aggressive pancreatic cancer and who knows
what might have happened. But I think ultimately what I
liked about him is that he kept going until he died.
We, I think Walt Knight did the last interview with him that he
ever did, the public interview that he ever did.
I think he probably did the last interview he ever did.
And it was quite. Safe to come back and watch.
It is sort of sad that nobody in tech has delivering that level
of thoughtfulness. Thoughtfulness, Well, he was
well educated, he was well read. I mean, I mean, the whole class
now is so far below him. You know, they're, they're,
they're trolls compared to him. And they are trolls in, in
online at least. And he just had a lot of
thoughtfulness and and controversy too around him.
And that was OK. But to compare to today, I mean,
it's a, it's a low bar, but he seems, he seems almost noble in
a lot of ways. And one of the things that I
really liked was that speech he gave at Stanford in between his
two illnesses, because he got sick again.
And he was actually pretty when he did, we did the Gates jobs
interview. I think that was 2005.
He was in great shit. You saw he was very quite robust
and and then he got sick again. But he gave that speech during
that time period. And I have to say, listening to
it, it's it's like it just, I even today I listened to it over
and over again, this idea that death actually is the fuel that
creates innovation because your mortality gives you enough
urgency to do things. So it's a very complex and
beautifully written thing. He had to have written it
himself. It's too personal not to bend
that way and does. Does legacy drive you or how
much do you think? Oh, I've got a clock.
And I need to achieve this. Yes, it's not legacy.
It's it's that I I'm aware of time.
And I think that's what that's was the impetus.
And so was he. And I think it's not lost to me
that he created the most incredible things while he was
sick. That's his most fertile period
of creation, which was amazing when you think about it, whether
it was the whatever everything was during his illness periods
or right before it, right near it.
And so I thought that was, I thought he's, you know, he's an
interesting character in that regard.
And then it just went so far South after when it was more
about narcissism, you know, narcissism.
I want to live forever. You're.
Not saying Apple specifically. No, Oh, not Apple, the the men
who came after him. And I think the next visionary
because Steve was the visionary for a long time and sort of the,
the, you know, the template for the mogul kind of their people
had looked up to that. And then it became Elon, I
think. And Elon's a whole nother ball
of wax, even when he was not quite as toxic as he is now.
I want to ask about the doc one more question, but we should
talk about Elon Brian Johnson. Like did you find, what did you
find sort of redemptive or redemptive?
Or valuable. I don't know about valuable.
I just wanted to, I wanted to be fair to him because I think he
himself makes himself a circus act.
And he talked about that like he's.
Trying to build almost like a cult around the.
Ideas. And he knows why he attracts the
mockery. He can't say he's a victim
because he attracts it with his ridiculous photos and the blood
thing and the all the all this stuff he just posted today.
Like I just had sex with Kate last night.
Cool. Like fuck you.
Like, you know, I think he was doing it just to be provocative.
And so he's doing that so fine. And what I found interesting, I
met he appeared at one of the last code conferences when he
wasn't this Brian Johnson talking about brain issues and
cognitive issues and his own depression and AI.
He was one of the first person people in Silicon Valley who
really had his arms around where AI was going after he'd sold his
company. And and then he reappeared as
this, whatever this is. And so I have to say I thought
it was pretty fair to him. A lot of the recovery is like,
she gets him. I'm like, I don't, I let him
speak. He gets himself like that kind
of thing. And I question things.
And but, you know, I think my point to him is that you're
spending all this money when you could spend money on gold
standard tests that would help the rest of us.
If you really care about humanity's health, why are you
just doing an experiment of one which tells us he's like, oh,
and then I'm sharing it. I'm like, your health doesn't
matter to the rest of our eyes. You're just one person.
And so it doesn't give you any real data except about your
erections. And that doesn't matter.
It's not going to, it's not going to be replicated across
the population. So it's sort of so narcissistic,
like, what are you doing it for? Because it isn't going to help
lots of people. It isn't.
And then you're selling supplements on top of it it, and
then T-shirts and then gatherings.
And so it's far, so far away from someone who actually wants
to help people live longer and healthier.
And so that's what offends me about it.
Did you have you watched the Louis Theroux?
Yes, I interviewed Louis just. Oh, great.
Yeah. I mean, in some ways what you're
talking about has similarities where it's this collision of
sort of journalists culture with like influencer culture and
letting them sort of reveal themselves.
Instead of I, I don't think. Obviously it's not toxic.
And I don't think he's a con man.
I don't think he's a con man. I think he's someone who is
probably a little unhappy and is searching for meaning.
And those guys are clearly trying to sell you some stupid
scheme, Bitcoin scheme or dumb supplement thing, or here's how
to get ahead in real estate. They're all just just grifters
really. I don't consider Brian a
grifter. I it's something else, probably
deeper and sadder, You know, and it sort of is that what's
happened to a lot of the Silicon Valley people, they're so
absorbed in themselves and they feel like they must live
forever. Like, and I don't mean live
forever, but you know what I mean.
Like they must go on because they're the finer people and
then they become mutated. You know, whatever you think of
what Phases has done to his body, they're all doing things
to their body, which is really, you know, and then they like,
let's not talk about the body. I'm like, but look what you did.
Like we talk about women when they'd have a facelift and then
not them. And so I think this body
changing is physical changing is interesting to me.
What what did you make of Marc Andreessen?
Sort of coming out against introspection.
It's such nonsense. Like you don't think he's even
serious about it or? I think he says things just to
be provocative. He's done that his whole life.
He's was like that when he was young.
I met him when he was quite young.
And he's always tries to be sort of the troublemaking gesture in
the room, you know what I mean? And so that's not a new fresh
thing, whether remember the Indian thing he said.
He always says something, really.
Well, I don't think he wanted that one.
He really stepped in it. This no.
I'm not so sure. I, I think he just, he knows
what he's, he's just, he's an incredibly smart person.
Let me just tell you, he's not that dumb.
He knows what he's doing and he's always doing.
And when we used to text all the time, he's very funny.
He's got a very wicked sense of humor and you know, except his
sense of humor is tearing people down like and dunking and
tininess, smallness. And so I found it.
I found it. I'm like, OK, whatever you
child, but he's he is introspective.
That's not true. He has a very I think he has a
very complex life. He isn't simple.
He doesn't just go ahead and he what he does is he successfully.
I'm not a psychiatrist, but if I was raising him, I'd say he
successfully buries his pain, which is there's obviously a lot
of family pain there or something that he's just decided
to leave behind. Yeah, you know much of this
story. Yeah, I do.
You know, I think he doesn't talk to his family.
As I recall, he's talked about it with me a long time ago.
He may not recall it, but he doesn't, and he never explain
why and they don't know why. Not specifically about Marc
Andreessen, but I do think a failure of how we live our
public lives right now is that people can become characters
without us having any sense of like their family life, right?
If you know someone offline, you'd be like this person's
respected in the community like people are, they're a little
bit. About his personal life, yeah,
his wife is lovely. Laura is lovely.
I'm not trying to, but I do think there's sort of like
people can become these sort of like characters on He's a.
Character like he's. Without giving a full picture of
like their human. Yeah, but I think he likes to be
the. I think he sort of relishes
being the pirate when in fact he's the man, right?
Like I'm, oh, I'm just telling it like I don't know what it is
for him. I've never I, I can't say I've
ever had a significantly profound discussion with him.
I've had a lot of tweets back and forth in late of the night
about Sarah Palin or whatever's happening.
You know when you last talked or was there a year of the fall?
He got mad about something. I don't even know.
There's such petty little shits. When you sort of started salary?
On I think I was very critical. No, he didn't.
I don't think he minded that as much.
I, I don't know, he probably thought I was too negative about
because he was at a lot of code conference, you know, he came
and did a lot of really interesting, interesting
interviews. Very again, very smart, many of
them or morons and he's not right or moronic, I guess is
what the better word to use. But he he he probably thought I
was too tough on Facebook or Mark or who knows who knows?
They're they're so petty. I'm like, man up, grab, you
know, grab your sack and we're in the big, big leagues now.
You can take criticism. And so, and as it's turned out,
by the way, like I, I hate to say it, but looks like I was
right. Like about what they've become
and how. They judge it well.
Yeah, money, their attitude and also we made money.
Public sentiment is extremely negative on the.
Tech you just saw the most recent stuff, the the Gallup
poll today. Yes, it's because it's not good.
And and I think this, if I had to guess, and this is just me as
someone who has a lot of kids is a lot of these people weren't
hugged enough as children. I don't know what to say because
they are desperate for affirmation.
And if they don't get asked affirmation, they throw
tantrums, right. They're like, and that's why I
call them toddler adults. And you sort of in that it was
there before, like I was thinking about someone that
reminded me of something that was my book, which was when I
was at excite, they had the slide between the two floors.
You know, they had all the children's toys everywhere,
whether it was at Google, Excite and stuff in the very early
stages or Excite, they had a garage front, even though it was
a building. And I was like, you're
performatively pretending you're still on a girl, like who does
that? That's not 14, right,
essentially. And so at one point they were
like, slide down the slide, Kara, like when I was there to
write a profile of them for the Wall Street Journal.
And I'm like, no, I'm not going to slide down your slide.
And they're like, slide down. Everyone does.
I'm like, I didn't like it at 4. I don't like it at 40.
And I'm not going to do it like I'm not playing your game.
Period where they were pretending they.
Wanted me to put it in the profile like, oh, here with the
bouncing balls. And instead, like when, you
know, Google would show off any manner of scooters or zip blades
or, you know, they wanted it in the piece kind of thing, 'cause
we're childlike. Well, I was like, you're
childish is what? Which is different kind of
thing. And I didn't want to, like,
indulge them in that ridiculous performative stuff.
I mean, this is a big question to ask, but you know, Silicon
Valley would say we at least have sort of a positive vision
for what we want. That's what I'm going to ask.
Like what is your positive vision?
You know what, what do you think?
How do you want people to be spending your time, their time
or how do you think about sort of the organizing?
Well, you. Want people to, I want them to
be thinking of more people than themselves.
They're so interested in themselves and so interested.
You know, there's a great new series out called The Audacity.
I just did the the the creators of it and some of the stars in
it and producers and I love it. It's really, I love Silicon
Valley. I was an advisor to it, by the
way. I was in it these this is
Jonathan. I think it's Glatzer who's doing
he was from succession and a bunch of stuff.
He they are depicting the sort of more serious and sad elements
of what's happening. And I have to say there's one
line that and I had to tell you, Zach Galifianakis is so good in
it. And the only thing I'm mad about
is I have sympathy for them and I can't stand them like, and
that that's how successful this is.
But he says they should they should they, they're so hateful
to us now. They should throw us parades for
what we've done. And I'm like, you know what?
The Internet was built with taxpayer money.
You were helped innumerable ways by the government and just saw
Gore, you know, right. And you shit on it like as if
you weren't helped and and pushed up by others.
And so I think the selfishness in that much wealth is what
really drives me crazy. And it's not and it's a lot like
this documentary. It's like, are you doing it for
yourself or are you trying to help a lot of people?
And the only person I see helping are the women, which are
like, like Mackenzie Scott, who's just given a $70 million
from Meals on Wheels. She's trying to help us in the
now and that to me and and all every time they do something
shitty, it's like, well, our stock is worth a lot.
And for me, what I said to one of them, it might have been
Mark, you're so poor. All you have is money.
Like you're poor. And and I want them to be
better. And the reason why Burn Book was
called Burn Book a love story because I love tech and I think
it has great possibilities. But the only thing they're doing
with us is surveilling us, trying to control us, and now
trying to infect and destroy politics, right?
I mean in in burn book. Which wasn't Bernie enough?
He's not negative. And you're like, oh, I should
have been meaner in. No, I don't think that.
I thought I was fair. I thought I was fair.
Several, one person who after I wrote it came up to me because
everyone has an opinion, said you're real mean to them here.
And I'm like, I don't think I am.
I think I'm fair. I think I am fair.
And then the other day the same person, I'm fair.
He goes oof, looks like you weren't mean enough.
Well, you can never you, never I.
Don't really give a fuck, like it doesn't matter.
But I was like, let's look at this.
These are the people. It's not like they're a small
section, like a hardware store in a small town.
These people are affecting social, they're affecting
politics, they're affecting communities, they're affecting
health. Like they have enormous power
and now they're controlling politics like.
But I think there's a story of it that's, you know, you have a
relationship with them. You go to them for sources,
you're getting scoops. And like, sometimes you're like,
this is morally objectionable. And there's a period of time
reflecting what your sense of like, the public and sort of
goodwill is. And they would be responsive to
that, and then they'd make corrections.
And so it's like, OK, tech exists in sort of this dialogue
with the public. Then there's a period where,
like, the tech industry and the public sort of phase out of each
other. And so you're saying, oh, the
public thinks this and they don't seem to give a shit.
And so you're more negative. I'm not.
Negative. I am telling them the truth,
they are hurting people and so why does the cigarette look?
Give me an example. Let.
Me just can I just finish it? I mean, I think the thing they
would say is they stop talking to you and then Cara gets very.
Mad because. It's like the the relationship.
Breaks down. I don't want to.
Talk to them and you don't need them anymore because you pivot
in yes. To sort of the critical no, that
is that's crap. That's that's what a small child
would think like I'm sorry, it's I'm an adult.
I don't. That's not how well.
But the relationships drive like even as a reporter, it matters.
I'm not covering them as a beat reporter.
That's certainly true. And I think I actually was far
too kind actually and just. Back in the day.
Yeah, only because I thought it was really exciting what was
happening. I really did.
It's like watching, you know, the gold, Like people cross the
country and discover America and you're like, this is amazing.
And then, oh, God, you just killed all those Indians.
You just what? Like.
And I feel like it's more like The Great Gatsby.
I'm Nick in The Great Gatsby. And then you're like, just a
fucking second here. Tom and Daisy stop hurting
people. And one of the, which they
always were in that particular instance, one of the things that
I think is problematic is I, I started writing for the New York
Times because, and I think I clocked, I'm sorry.
I, I, I know I say I'm right, but I was right.
Like when I wrote that piece where I said they're weaponizing
the First Amendment, they're weaponizing this, they're
weaponizing that. There will be downstream effects
of what they're doing. Because I studied propaganda in
Hitler's Germany. I you, if you study history for
five seconds, you see what was going to happen.
And there were two moments. One was this interview with
Zuckerberg, not the sweating one, which was I felt bad for
him in that case. But when he said Holocaust
deniers don't mean to lie and therefore I'm letting them do
whatever they want on my platform.
And I said downstream anti-Semitic violence will will
explode you under. And then I'm like, he doesn't
understand, except he's in charge of it and none of us can
do it. With the irony of that
particular incident, where's the Mark Zuckerberg was trying to
take what he saw as like a principled stand, which was, if
I'm going to bite the bullet and say that we shouldn't moderate,
I should bite the bullet on the thing that's most personal to
me. That was APR.
But it's in some ways it was
don't be bad tactics to bring up the hall.
I think he he went in my session.
Talking about Alex Jones, that's what we were first to, which is
a clear cut case of someone breaking every rule of Facebook
and instead they're trying to switch out of it.
Don't have rules then don't you know, I think he was trying to
please and he was under the Cheryl was pushing that more and
then he suddenly got to be a man and got to do and do his own
thing. When I wrote a piece and it's 2
pieces in the times when I went there so I could get their
notice, I was like, now you're going to fucking listen.
They were listening to me before, but I was like, what
you're doing is so dangerous for the rest of our country and
hurtful to kids. Same thing with, well, I'll get
to that in a second. But so I wrote that they had
they had they had weaponized all these things.
They weaponized and amplified hate.
And I'm this is going to have bad effects.
And now Trump is here who understands it as one of these
charismatic leaders. This is not good for the rest of
us and the body politic. And there's all kinds of
problems with the United States of America.
I'm not saying that, but this takes this.
This sends us in a very dangerous direction.
And they acted like they had no responsibility then, right?
In 2019, I wrote a piece, and I'll never forget this, for the
times where I predicted the insurrection.
I said, what happens if Donald Trump loses?
This is I wrote in 2019, Donald Trump, go look at the text.
It's crazy. I, I felt like, I felt like like
Nostra fucking dumbest, but I was like, what happens it if
Donald Trump loses the election, Here's what he's going to do.
He's going to go to his followers online that he's
already ginned up in a state of rage because enragement equals
engagement. And he's going to tell them in
the real world to do something about it and and claim fraud
because he's already starting with the fraudulent stuff,
right? You could see him start it and
he's going to do that. And then they're actually going
to stop the election. They're going to try at least to
stop the election, which is precisely what they do.
When I wrote that piece, I got so many angry messages.
I don't think Mark wrote me, but a lot of them did.
How dare you think we would start it?
And I used the word insurrection in the piece.
And they were like, how dare you accuse us of being part of the
thing? I was like, how dare I?
That's that. I can see down the fucking Rd.
because I took history courses, which you didn't apparently take
or anyway. And so that was pretty bad.
But then with this AI stuff again, watching them do put roll
out these chat bots and kids get to use it.
You know, we stopped Joe Camel. I'm sorry, you just.
You. So yeah, I want just.
Yeah, I'm saying they what? Do you see value in language
models? To me, yes, social media and
language models. A problem right now is
politicians are over extrapolating from the social
media area. Of course, like to me, I think
language models, at least as they exist right now and we
could drift from that. But like today, they're trying
to be truth based because they that's how they reason.
They. They bring us sort of closer to
a shared reality. Do they?
I, I think so. I don't know because right now
it's sort of a standard set of answers for different users.
Obviously you have memory, but if you want this general purpose
model then it needs to be able to generally reason.
There's all kind look at you can use a knife as a weapon or a
tool, but she's with it or kill someone.
It's like that's the way it goes.
But when I saw these character, when the minute I saw a
character AI and the rest of them, I'm like, oh, no, no, no,
no, this isn't user Jenner and they try to claim it's user
generated content. It's not.
It's doing something else. And then they unleash it on
teens who are anyone who has children under understands they
shouldn't be using this product just the way they shouldn't be
using cigarettes, just the way we, we age gate lots of things.
And they've made it so we have to now age gate it because they
won't stop making shoddy, shitty products that hurt people.
And then they're like, it's not our fault.
But then when you read the transcripts, it is their fault
because they made a product that was shoddy.
And the thing I, I don't know why other other corporations
aren't pissed the fuck off. They get all these passes.
They have no rules on them When when air when Alaska air the the
door blew off, you remember that What happened to Alaska Air
when? They really get sued and.
Suits everywhere. Lawsuits everywhere.
I. Mean these companies are getting
sued. Now they are.
They're the richest company now they have so much advantage.
They got so much of A of a thing because Congress and others
refused to regulate, including Obama.
By the way, I'm not like it's not just Trump.
That's the coin operated president.
I don't think Obama was a coin. He just didn't do it.
But you know, Alaska Airlines, they get sued, investigations by
States and federal people, lawsuits.
The CEO was fired over a door. All these things happened and no
one pays like the insurrection. I don't think it's Mark
Zuckerberg's fault, but I don't think he helped and I think he's
part of it. I just the rum who got I.
Just think like language models they're inventing like a
fundamentally new intelligence that's going to reframe, except
the entire way. Like except Eric, we're.
Going to have an advances in. Acting like lawyers, sure, I and
I that's absolutely true, but that's their little marketing
point, which I agree it'll happen you.
Know sort of demos to Savas working at Google.
I feel like he is motivated. Demos is great, but meanwhile
they're also doing other things. And so why aren't we?
Why? Why isn't there an ability to to
why are they able to put out these chat bots for kids?
It's a very simple question. You want to age gate them.
I don't know now because. Taylor Lorenz, who I respect as
out being making the smart point that age gating is going to kill
you know that's. One of the arguments there's
like, guess what? We should let all kids drink.
We should let you do it all the time.
The problem is if you're you have to identify people to age.
Agree. It's very difficult, no
question. But we're smart people.
How can we? How can we figure out a way to
do things? And I'm not talking about a
nanny state, but we do it everywhere else.
If I were other companies, they all have.
Look, Deli on my fucking corner has more laws on it than the
tech industry. I just think experiencing the
Trump administration has made me personally less interested in
regulation because we see an administration eager to
weaponize every government tool they have.
And I'm surprised that you're still.
On that, what did the tech people come in and do I think we
could do Legislation can happen. I'd look, this is this is a
moment in time and we'll see what happens.
Because he's a coin operated. What did they figure out if you
were around? By the presidency.
That's correct. And it what happened was, and if
you were around when I started, Bill Gates famously came to the
Washington Post when I was there as a young reporter.
I invited him there to meet everybody.
He wasn't quite the world's richest man, but he was close.
He came in, he arrives in a cab. The whole he did the whole like
I'm a simple guy kind of thing, which he was no, but he was.
He didn't arrive. He was like that right.
He was unbathed at that time and he didn't wash his hair, which
was noted by the people there. And and he started saying I
don't have lobbies. I don't care about wash.
I'm just going to make my stuff out in Redmond.
And I said I'll never figure. I said to him, I said, you know,
this is a town of student body, ex ex student body vice
presidents who love a with a subpoena, like you've done
things that are problematic and or you will do things that are
problematic. And they came after him and then
they, they all lobbied up and they girded up on that.
And but they still had this even Google had this attitude is
like, we'll hire what suits Molinari, we'll hire blah, blah.
But they didn't care about it. And then the penny clicked with
people like Elon and David Sacks and others.
Just a second. These people are cheap.
Like we disdain them but we now can buy them and Trump is just
happens to be the most easily transactional person.
But isn't this a case against government?
No, it is not. It's a case against Trump.
It's a case. No, it is not our government.
Like sometimes when I listen to tech people, they're like, oh,
we do more than the government. We deserve this.
I was like, get off the fucking roads.
The highways get, you know, the government did that.
I don't know. I think World War 2 went pretty
well for us. I think like the government has
done all manner of amazing scientific research.
And by the way, guess who invented the Internet?
The government like, so why not work hand in glove with the
government instead of letting them decide everything?
And I'm a I'm a big believer the government shouldn't do that
because companies can move faster and innovate and do and
they have the capitalist impetus to do so, which is great.
But what happened to that public, private thing?
I. Just think we're we're literally
in a period where the Trump administration is buying stakes
in companies about to throw money around communists.
So I call them socialists, right?
Yeah. So I don't know.
I just think there's a dangerous argument to make at this moment,
at this moment, because they're going to lean into it and
they're going to get tons of money from the federal
government. Constitution and it's the Trump
administration. They're corrupt.
COIN operated a bunch of grifters, absolutely, but it
doesn't mean we abandoned the American experiment because
these bunch of grifters are in charge right now.
Now we know, just like with with Nixon, things happened after
Nixon, we cleaned it up and we're going to clean it up
again. That's what's going to happen.
And you can see, listen, six months ago I I said on pivot,
Trump is over. You don't see it's now you can
see it. You can see what's about to
happen. Just this, just this week, Look
at the you have to pay attention to the signals.
You don't see every single person in the Maggie Haberman
piece in the New York Times, which she did with John Swan,
who are great reporters. They all of a sudden are running
for the fucking exits. I didn't want it.
It was farcical, said according to sources close to CIA head.
Who do you think those sort Come on, Rubio didn't was was sort of
quiet. You know, the and the person who
really objected was JD Vance. Who do you think leaked that?
Do you think it was JD Vance or his minions?
Absofuckinglutely. They're all going like.
This yeah, but it's still a dangerous.
I mean, obviously the defense, the Secretary of Defense is all
in he's. Going to be fine.
It's. A dangerous.
Situation. You know why?
Because I know Trump. I've paid attention to Trump and
how he behaves. He's if you think he's, he's a
mob boss, he's not, he's, he's not going to be left holding the
fucking bag. They're trying to give him the
bag right now. The rest of them, because
they're smarter, you know, Vito and Marco and Vito and the rest
of them know what's about to happen and they're going to the
moron who is Pete Hegseth, who is who is not a true believer,
but he's got obviously a drinking problem, etcetera.
And he's not very smart. It's going to be holding the
bag. I want to talk about Sam A.
Little Nikki or whatever. Watch a mob movie and you'll
understand what's about to happen here I.
Want to talk about Sam Altman? I mean, obviously there was this
great New Yorker profile on him. And he brought together a lot of
stuff that a lot. Of other people, yeah.
You've done great reporting case.
He's done a lot of people done great reporting on the on the
discomfort with Stamol I. Still think it was a good piece.
I think I loved it. Some of these beat reporters can
be a little bit like, well, nothing's new.
And I just think it's no, yes. It was no, I have no, no, Ronan
is, he's a friend of mine. So I'll say that he's
exceptional at putting together and drawing the lines together.
And I think he does that beautifully.
And you know, he obviously is one of the Pulitzer Prize for
the Weinstein stuff, but he's really, he's a very big, he's a
he's so smart and he really he connects dots and I think it's
critically important connect dots in these things.
So no ones following every SO. This is reductive, but is Sam a
villain now on your mind after that piece?
No, no. I thought, I think that's what's
the take away. I don't.
I think. I think he's rubbed a lot of
people. Although, you know, what am I
like compared to Marc Andreessen?
No, no, I think Marc Andreessen's a bigger villain.
If I had to, if you want me to stack rank them, Peter Thiel's
at the top of the villain group, but he's.
Also, sometimes you're sympathetic to Thiel in the
sense that he's been at it for the whole time.
Here's what I value with him. He's always been conservative.
He's not in you know, Johnny come lately, He's always said,
you know, he and I did a which is now lost to time.
This amazing video where we argued about with the First
Amendment, Matt and she's smart. He's so smart in the 14th
Amendment. And you know, I, I, there's no,
one of the things I'd like to do is even if I don't like someone,
if they're really smart, I can't pretend like you're dumb.
They're not. He's not dumb.
He's quite an interesting thinker.
And a lot of it is vile. But it's also, it's remember
when Ruth Ginsburg and Scalia used to argue with each other?
I'm obviously on the Ginsburg side, but there's no
questioning. Scalia was brilliant.
Amy Coney Barrett seems pretty fucking smart.
I don't agree with her on a lot of things.
You can see it when when you read her writing, you're like,
oh, OK, this is the smart law professor.
Which is honestly part of what infuriates me about tech's
current political attitudes. Because, you know, Twitter, if
Twitter is a representation of what they want, it's, you know,
cat turd and all these like, idiotic accounts.
And they act like they can't tell what's smart and what's
dumb, who's thoughtful and who's not.
They're just morons. Just try to use the word moron
more your own and it really bothers people.
I'm like, you're a moron. And they're like, oh, that's not
an argument. I go it's not.
I just think you're a moron. And actually, but I will say
Teal is smart and I've read all his books.
You know, I, I, I understand where he's going.
I just don't agree with him. And that's different.
And so the problem is they all figured out that trolling and
being kind of ridiculous was the way to go rather than actually
have a really good debate and certain people you couldn't have
a big debate about. I had Thom Tillis on the other
day on my podcast. Very smart.
With Sam, I mean, part of what we're saying is Peter Thiel has
like a point of view that's somewhat thoughtful.
Sam, it does feel like ambition rules everything.
Isn't that the most dangerous thing you could be, where you're
always just chasing power? Well, well, have you?
Is that something fresh and new for you?
Like ambitious. Young men who want things.
I mean, I don't know. I, that's been my, my experience
for everybody, I think. I think what's the problem with
Sam? He's a chameleon and I met him
when he was 19. I right?
I mean, I mean, Sam, I mean, to put it more directly, he's sort
of the, you know, were you too close or, you know, he's
moderating you for the book tour.
Like there is a certain your relationship with him colors.
Your point of view. You say that though you like
friend is like a word you just don't use for tech people.
You're not my friend, but I mean, I like you, but no, I
mean, you know. Especially with this line of
question, no. No, I get that.
I'm too close to them. I was too close to.
I mean, I, I'm but I'm, yeah, I'm close to them, but I'm not
sort of like playing that. It doesn't influence like who I
spend. Time with or not in the group of
people that includes Marc Andreessen and Elon.
Sam is better. Sorry, I'm sorry.
Yeah, he lies to people. Big fucking news.
So does, so isn't. That the thing as a report, that
as a reporter that offends me the most, that I mean the lying,
because it's just so hard as a reporter to to navigate, you
know, we depend on. I see my line is anti humanity.
So I just everyone has their things.
People lie to me. I don't know, like what are you
kidding? News flash at 11:00, I've had so
many people lie to me over the years.
I mean, just like in, in four days, like, like I would have
people lie all the time. Mark Andreessen, at one point,
Mark, I was reporting that he was leaving AOL and he says it's
absolutely not true. And I go, Mark, if you tell me
this like he was telling it to me directly and it's true,
that'll make you a liar. And he goes, I'm absolutely not
leaving the next day. Press release.
Oh my God. And I all I wrote to him was
pants on fucking fire. And it was like, I don't if I
got offended by everyone who lied to me, I would be offended
all the time. And.
And I this is a wiser perspective than mine,
certainly, that the effect on humanity matters more.
I I think he is. And if you look at Open AI and
what they're. Doing here, I think he is
nowhere near as dangerous. AI is.
Yeah, I think he is nowhere near as dangerous as Marc Andreessen
or Peter Thiel in terms of their impact or, or even in Emile
Michael right now because of the stuff he's doing to Dario.
And and I don't think anyone see the problem is everyone's become
a hero or a villain. And it's it's much more complex.
I'll tell you what I don't like about Sam is he's very clearly,
he tells people what they want to hear, which is a pleaser.
And at the same time, it seems that it's more manipulative than
anything else. It's it's morphed into
manipulation, right. But he's a he's been a pleaser
his whole life. I can tell you it's.
Not a great strategy, honestly. It's not.
And then his lack of interest in safety I think is a real thing.
I think he he wants to jam shit through and he absolutely does.
And he also wants to. I think he tells people
different things, which is but a pleaser does and I don't, and
I'm not letting him off the hook by that, but he's in charge of a
very important company and therefore it should have a
little bit more fucking responsibility about what he's
doing and maybe, you know, sack up and be a better man, that
kind of thing. Like, and a lot of people have
look, Mark Cuban was such a jerk when I met him and I really
enjoy like he's evolved someone like Evan Spiegel's another
person who I was such a jerk. Being a little bit of a jerk
never bothered me, Isn't it? They can have a little swagger.
You know, I honestly don't care. They're not again, they're not
my friends and what I think it is is that it's more I have
hopes for some of them like that they because they have such
responsibility, right. They have such enormous
responsibility. But look at someone like Tim
Cuckoo. I like quite a lot right as have
had a relatively cordial relationship over the years.
Think he's done amazing things for from a shareholder's
perspective. At the same time, the minute he
did the Melania thing or called him like a quiz, the statues,
it's quiz. A part of me, he thinks he's
taking it for the team like he's leaving.
So let him take all the fucking Flack for that.
The same time he's absolutely tarnished his reputation.
I still like him. I just, but I just.
I'm disappointed in this. Question is going to be the most
woe is me small potatoes thing. But don't you think saying tech
Bros all the time just is so dismissive?
You know, like, there are lots of people in the industry, but
many of them are building fairly, like morally neutral.
And I'm not referring to them, I'm not, but they.
Feel. Sort of.
Like, Oh no, you're kidding. Wah wah I.
Mean I I I guess I still do believe Silicon Valley is the
place in the world and the United States that is most
working to build. Let me.
Throw something back at you. Why are they the fucking victims
all the time? I you know what?
I know real victims. I know the kids who have killed
themselves using products they use.
I know kids that live in Sudan like like there's, there's
victims all over the world. They are not victims.
And I their feelings, I don't care.
I don't care if they feel victimized.
Isn't bad for our society, like we want to encourage people who
are doing stuff you know, that's productive that we want them to
do to keep. Yes.
Why are they going productive than a teacher like why?
Because they're rich stop it. They're not, trust me, they are
not more productive. And this idolatry of innovators
is ridiculous. But.
You like technology? I love technology, but I don't
think, listen, I think a banker, a deli guy, a nurse, anybody is
a hero to me. These, these fucking astronauts
up there, they're so much higher on my stack than these people.
And I'm and, you know, thank you for the mapping stuff, which, by
the way, was created by the federal government that you just
took and, and then sold it back to us.
Those astronauts I have great regard and respect for.
And they're just as good and just as important as someone who
makes a dating site. I'm sorry, I just I'm not going
to like I I think it's great the things they've done and look,
Henry Ford, astonishing industrialist made the car.
Car was important. That fucking anti semite, like
fuck him. Like I couldn't have two
feelings. Same thing with Edison.
Jerk, jerk, jerk. Thanks for the light bulb, but I
don't have to constantly be thanking you for something.
And that's my thing. And what the reason we thank
them is because they got money. They're so poor.
All they have is money. And so I'm not gonna give them
any more than I would give a teacher.
Then I would give there's only. From a purely pragmatic point of
view, isn't there an argument that like Biden not inviting
Elon to that stupid? Thing just.
Doing sort of like I, I think, you know, people underestimate
how I, I'm sympathetic to the argument.
You get paid in money. That's what the money's for.
The classic Mad Men. That's what the fuck.
The tech people. But the tech people don't feel
that way. Like business executives.
Guess what? They do it because they want to.
We care about social standing more than we care about you know
what money in someone. That's what the fucking money's
for, and you have a lot of it kids.
And you know what? Take that money and buy yourself
the finest dog in the land. I don't really care.
I don't care if you feel good. I don't get Get married, have
children, find your hopes and dreams, Elon.
When Elon didn't get invited, he called me a lot and was
complaining about it. I'm sure he called a lot of
people, but I remember that because he was so mad about it
right with the time we were speaking at the time and and it
wasn't that long ago, right. So and I called the people the
White House. I said, I cannot believe you
didn't invite him to that and I'd see why because and they're
like unions, blah, blah. And then they went overboard and
was praising Mary Barra as and there's no question Elon gets by
the way, the Google people were there first, but.
He was the one that pushed the cars through, right?
He really did. He was the one who really mushed
them, get them, get them into place and deserves all the
credit for that. He deserves the credit, but not
everything. And I'm so sorry he has doesn't
feel loved enough by the Biden administration.
But again, sack up Sir. It's the way life.
Works, but from a pragmatic perspective they.
Should I said you? Should I?
What I said to the Biden people at the time was you need to have
a man and you need to pet him down like you need to stroke.
Daniel Laurie and San Francisco is doing such a great job.
He's trying saying nice things about them, but otherwise
running. He's trying, but trust me,
behind the scenes, it's not something they love to do.
Like it's just why are we doing this to a bunch of the richest
people on the planet? Why do they get extra special
cookies? Like here's a good example.
When I was a kid, my my mom worked.
It worked after my dad died. And we would just have to stay
at this if she worked in a department store and we'd have
to stay in this place called the birdcage.
And it was that sex with that and Brahma tell I don't
remember. And every, when we'd sit in
there and have lunch and with me and my two brothers and then
waitress used to come and, and say, you know, dessert time and
they go, it's boys day. Boys get 2 desserts and girls
get just get 1. And I was like, all right, I'll,
I'll bite. And they got 2 desserts.
I got one. It was always fucking boys day.
I and at one point, and this was me as a six year old, I said,
why is it always boys day? There's never girls day.
Oh, you just didn't come here on the right day.
I'm like, no, no, it's never girls day.
So I just want you to answer. I said I don't want another
dessert, but I just want to know why it is.
And to me, some of the whiny that they do, they're such,
they're so whiny about being victims and they deserve it.
I I urge you to watch this AMC because Zach does a beautiful
job at this. Why are we so coddling of the
world's richest people? They can afford therapists.
They can buy themselves a wife or a husband or whatever they
want. They can buy a dog.
They can buy an island. They can buy France.
As far as I don't really care. Jeff Bezos wants to rent Venice
for his wedding. Seems a little much to me, but
knock yourself out, we do not have to.
We are constantly wondering how Elon feels when people across
the world are dying due to his careless stupidity.
Part part of how America works is that thankfully we want power
to be more diffused, not to me not totally aligned in like 1
president or one government. And like companies are a way
that we sort of diffuse power. People can run different
experiments and if and so like they have worked hard to sort of
build their little mini cults with their little mini visions
of the world and they want to be sort of a small participant in
this like. They don't want to be a small,
they don't want to be a small participant.
Are you watching what they're doing and the funding that
they're doing? They're funding.
He tried to change the by the way, he's lost badly.
Now it's five to two liberals in Wisconsin.
Good job, Elon on that one. Right.
To be clear, I would never defend Elon like no, but I think
there is definitely a project to sort of kill American democracy.
I'm very worried about it's just.
This is. The Trump Channel.
My problem is that by sort of hitting with such a large
target, you're sort of you're attacking anybody who could be
your friend. I like all the people who were.
I don't want to be friends with them again.
They're not very. Friends, you're ally.
You're like trying to build a vision of the world.
That you want to see, I talk to lots of great technology people
and they make beautiful things, but so do a lot of people.
And our, our, our, our viewfinder is far too much with
the wealthy. And listen, that happened back
in the Gilded Age. It happened before that it
happened in ancient Rome. This is what always happens.
But I don't think this small group of homogeneous people
should have such power over communications, politics,
social, now media, because that's where they're headed,
right? And and healthcare, like why do
they get to run everything? And because they are
homogeneous, they even if you think they aren't, they are.
And some of them are a little more liberal than others.
Some are more preserved than others.
I just don't think 1 industry should be calling the shots on
everything. And I, I can't believe I'm
actually saying this, but I would rather have Ted Cruz make
decisions about AI because he's, here's why he's elected by the
people. And they spent a, they, they
regulate pharmacies that farm, you know, drugs.
They, they regulate cars, they regulate planes, they regulate
oil and gas. What they don't regulate is
tech. So why do they get off when
they're able to do that? And our, this is the government
we've chosen is a representative government of the people.
I believe in the people a lot more than them.
I just people are the consumers who can choose one time we.
Don't have it? Or another.
They can spend their time on one thing, or they can spend their
time on something else. It's a monopolistic system.
Stop it. It's not true.
I mean, they can read my subject, they can go on Twitter
like they. Choose.
How they spend their. Time.
Right now, Facebook dominates. So years ago I didn't have it.
Ben Horowitz and I was talking about investing.
The antitrust fight has largely been like a disaster.
It's because. We haven't changed the antitrust
laws in 100 years because everything is different.
We've got to think about, listen, I'm not a big proponent
of big regulation, but there's none like 0 regulation.
So why can't we do the basic stuff?
We haven't passed a privacy bill.
Why does all my stuff get to be used and abused by them?
That why do I have to trade away my privacy and not have control
over stuff? I mean, ma'am, Donnie is doing,
I think literally this week, sort of like one click
unsubscribe. There are lots of things I'm
sure we would agree on that we should do.
But why did see? The thing is, they get all the
advance, They get all the advance.
They are born on third base right now and they think they've
hit a home run. And I have nothing but regard
for all kinds of inventors. Back to Ben Franklin.
I love a Ben Franklin, but nobody envisioned that they
should decide on everything, and I don't.
I can't stand Ted Cruz, but he's elected by the people of Texas.
He's a represent now. He gets bought and paid for by
them, of course. But why can't our
representatives decide? Even if it we move slower, even
if it's that is how democracy works.
They don't. They hate democracy.
They, you know, Peter talks about at least Peter says it out
loud, right? That's why I appreciate him.
OK, now I see where you're coming from.
Last, last question, tight. By the way, you're a lot nicer
than am I am. You would say I'm nice to Sam
Allman, but man. Oh, I, I said I sided with the
board during the whole period while you were tweeting in his
defense. So I.
I was, I didn't. I did.
In that specific instance, I stuck my neck out pretty far.
What did you say? I I wrote that people should
listen to the board and that there had been this incident
with YC and Elon. They messaged it poorly.
But yeah, I do think people didn't understand what the real
reason. No, I think then at the time in
that case and that board got out of whack, they had two people,
the conservative guy will from Texas.
He stepped off. He.
Stepped off and Reid stepped off and then it became an uneven
board because they were kind of in the middle kind of stuff and
therefore the group that was very much safety oriented got
too much. I thought it became a problem
with the board. I think they clearly executed it
poorly, but like Ilya, Mira had come with complaints.
But then didn't. Have left the company.
She has, but then she's done her own thing.
I don't know. I, I think I was in terms of
what was the losing sort of popular position at the time I
held the one that was out like the public sentiment on Twitter
was yours, right. And mine was the the minority
position that I think is bearing out overtime.
The except is it? I mean, look, look, Ilya went
off and took all that money. So like, nobody's cleaning?
Nobody, nobody. And you know, Mira's taken like
no, accountability doesn't talk about.
It, I'm sorry, I just don't believe that there's same thing.
I'm just saying on that particular one, I'm not, I'm not
giving you the. Moral victory, not a moral
victory. I just think it's what I think
it is. It's very complex.
And I don't think those safety people were as clean, not clean.
That was my point, that there's just more history to Sam.
I mean, I think part of the problem with the board, yes, is
there hadn't been sort of the predicate.
They hadn't gotten pieces out about Sam that would explain to
people why he was seen as a liar privately.
And my piece was just saying, oh, there is a long history of
people thinking to me that. Wasn't honest to me, that was a
board that got out of whack and one group that was one group
took back power and they had a point of view that was quite
inflexible, by the way. And the other side had a point
of view that was quite inflexible and that she goes to
board dynamics where you should have a board that is much more
balanced. So you can argue it out right
That to me it's it's like the same thing with Supreme Court if
it has too many but. You've just given this whole
spiel about how they shouldn't have so much power.
What? Why is Open AI Sam Altman like
it shouldn't be, right? Well, then what's it matter?
Like if the board sort of thinks, oh, maybe let's try
anybody else like somebody else. I think they did it wrong 1st
and then it doesn't matter how you do it and the employees were
behind him and I tend to go. Because there was this huge,
there's a huge amount of money, there's a tender offer that they
wanted. I mean, I mean, I agree that the
board failed to. Actually, they didn't have the
employees, but. You're given this whole speech
about how we shouldn't overempower people, and then
you're sort of very worried about.
One guy, no, I'm not worried about him.
If he doesn't do a good job, he should be fired.
OK. I don't want anybody to be able
to have too much power. And in that situation, the board
had too much power and then he had too much power and it
creates an out of whack. I don't like any of these
companies where Mark Zuckerberg can't be fired, for example.
They're monarchies as far as I'm concerned, and that's never
healthy, especially when it's as serious as by the Way.
Isn't that again an argument for firing Samuel?
It's so hard for these boards ever to take action.
Well, that's if you could really get a majority of the board to
say, oh, we don't want this guy. That's a pretty.
It was a majority of a side of a board.
It was not an even handed board. It was not.
It just was. And by the Will Hurd, it's Will
Hurd had a very he had a very mixed feeling.
And I like a person like that so that you have someone, you know,
there was a group that was very much inflexible and by the way,
anti innovation compared to the idea that they should be able to
innovate, right. And I'm actually more on their
side there's. Sort of two EA people.
But then there's Ilya. There's Adam D'Angelo, who is
at. I know, but there's also all
these interpersonal. I just think it's a lot more
comebacks. The thing that offended me in
that thing was the the the anti-gay stuff, which I was
getting in droves. And that's what motivated me
because I was like, you want to have a fair fucking fight?
Keep the anti-gay stuff out. Like if you want to say he's
this and that and here and there, that's one thing.
The second thing is what why do you need to employ that?
And I do think Elon was around, you know, again, Elon putting
himself out as the great releaser.
Come on, stop it. It's all.
And by the way, it's all about the money in the end for all of
these people. It's, you know, that whole Sam,
I don't get paid crap like he'll get paid.
He gets paid plenty that kind of stuff.
And so I don't like, I would prefer it that there be a range
of people, but tech is no different than the board of
Procter and Gamble where things like where they stack the board,
the CEO gets paid, he gives money to his hand, his best
friends, and they do all manner of crap.
So why is that different from anything else?
Because it's tech and it's more dramatic and cartoonish.
And I think we, I think we do cover.
And I would say myself when I was covering it too and too much
in a cartoon fashion, it's becoming even more cartoonized
now when it's much more complex. Great.
You have a hard stop. Thank you so much for coming.
No. Problem, I'm like, I'm like,
you're getting good at this. You're getting.
That was my conversation with Kara Swisher.
Always fun to engage with Kara. She's she's spicy.
She knows how to podcast better than me.
So kind of gotta keep learning. Thanks.
Like comment, subscribe, follow
the channel. You can check us out at
newcomer.co. You can go back and read my ODE
decode in the newcomer sub stack if you want to get some of the
history on me and Kara Swisher. And yeah, thanks for listening
and see ya next week or see you later this week.
Probably got a good one coming up.