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Slide down the slide, Kara. 
Like when I was there to write a

2
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profile for the Wall Street 
Journal and I'm like, no, I'm 

3
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not going to slide down your 
slide. 

4
00:00:05,560 --> 00:00:07,080
And they're like, slide down. 
Everyone does. 

5
00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,320
I'm like, I didn't like it at 4.
I don't like it at 40, and I'm 

6
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not going to do it. 
They wanted it in the peace kind

7
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of thing because we're 
childlike. 

8
00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,000
Well, I was like, you're 
childish. 

9
00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,080
I felt like like nostr fucking 
dumbest. 

10
00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:22,240
But I was like, what happens if 
Donald Trump loses the election?

11
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Here's what he's going to do. 
He's going to go to his 

12
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followers online that he's 
already ginned up in a state of 

13
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rage because enragement equals 
engagement. 

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And he's going to tell them in 
the real world to do something 

15
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about it and and claim fraud 
because he's already starting 

16
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with the fraudulent stuff, 
right? 

17
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You could see him start it and 
he's going to do that. 

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And then they're actually going 
to stop the election. 

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They're going to try at least to
stop the election. 

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I would rather have Ted Cruz 
make decisions about AI because 

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he's here's why he's elected by 
the people and they spent they, 

22
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they regulate pharmacies, cars, 
they regulate planes, they 

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regulate oil and gas. 
What they don't regulate is 

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tech. 
Kerris Wisher has spent decades 

25
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as the most feared journalist in
Silicon Valley, and she's been 

26
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right about a lot of it. 
From calling out tech's 

27
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unchecked power while Washington
looked the other way to warning 

28
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about the industry's drift 
toward right wing and manosphere

29
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politics, her predictions have a
way of aging uncomfortably well.

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She's been a mentor to me. 
I went to her for advice when I 

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decided to leave my job at the 
mainstream media and go 

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independent. 
Now with a brand new CNN series,

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Kara Swisher wants to live 
forever, she's turning the same 

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sharp eye on the longevity boom 
separated creating real science 

35
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from the Silicon Valley snake 
oil. 

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I want to say we talked about 
Sam Altman before there was a 

37
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Molotov cocktail thrown at his 
house and allegedly A gunshot 

38
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fired outside his house. 
So definitely don't want any 

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violence at Sam Altman's house. 
That said, we can still 

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criticize the open AICEO, as I 
do on this podcast, and we have 

41
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a great discussion about her 
closeness to Sam and whether she

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came to his defense at his time 
of need when the board ousted 

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him in a way that we disagreed 
about. 

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Welcome to the Newcomer Podcast,
hosted by me, Eric Newcomer. 

45
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,680
I am the author of the Newcomer 
Newsletter, which covers the 

46
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,520
business and people in the 
startups and venture capital 

47
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,440
industry. 
Check us out at newcomer.co. 

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Thanks for listening. 
Does Kara Swisher want to live 

49
00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,400
forever? 
No, she doesn't. 

50
00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:25,360
She does a. 
Little cute in your. 

51
00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,480
Well, why not? 
I mean, it's, it's actually an 

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interesting question. 
It's it's, it's very, you know, 

53
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it's a very actually a very 
funny doc series too, because I 

54
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think one of the things that 
works really well in Pivot is 

55
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Scott and I are somewhat funny 
with each other and 

56
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individually. 
And so we it has that kind of, 

57
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you know, attitude. 
You're walking around a few 

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cemetery. 
Cemetery and everything. 

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And it's also emotional and 
personal, which I think works 

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well. 
But no, I don't No, my whole 

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thing is they all want to, you 
know, you go to visit Brian 

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Johnson. 
He's like, I don't want to live 

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forever. 
I want to don't die. 

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And I'm like, what is wrong with
you? 

65
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Like, you know, it's although I 
have some mixed feelings about 

66
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him because I think he's an 
interesting character. 

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I've known him for a long time, 
but or covered him for a long 

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time and and I just thought it 
would be funny. 

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It was called something I'll 
I'll never die. 

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My wife thought it was like 
watch you die during the making 

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of it or something like that. 
And so it just, it's just, it's 

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obviously tongue in cheek. 
Yeah. 

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And you sort of get to the end 
where, I mean, you start off 

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saying, you know, you're 
reflecting on how Steve Jobs 

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00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,440
thinks about death. 
He did, yes. 

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I but I mean he clearly sort of,
I mean bungled. 

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He did, but let's not blame a 
dead person for death. 

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Like at this, at this point, at 
this point, you know, he did 

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realize the problems. 
It was too late, you know, and 

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ultimately, and he talked about 
it, you know, he talked about 

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that. 
And his family certainly is. 

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00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,640
I've talked to them about it and
I think it's, you know, it's he 

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still had a very aggressive 
pancreatic cancer and who knows 

84
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what might have happened. 
But I think ultimately what I 

85
00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,080
liked about him is that he kept 
going until he died. 

86
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,000
We, I think Walt Knight did the 
last interview with him that he 

87
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,920
ever did, the public interview 
that he ever did. 

88
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:06,080
I think he probably did the last
interview he ever did. 

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00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,840
And it was quite. 
Safe to come back and watch. 

90
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It is sort of sad that nobody in
tech has delivering that level 

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00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,600
of thoughtfulness. 
Thoughtfulness, Well, he was 

92
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well educated, he was well read.
I mean, I mean, the whole class 

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now is so far below him. 
You know, they're, they're, 

94
00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,920
they're trolls compared to him. 
And they are trolls in, in 

95
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online at least. 
And he just had a lot of 

96
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thoughtfulness and and 
controversy too around him. 

97
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And that was OK. 
But to compare to today, I mean,

98
00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,840
it's a, it's a low bar, but he 
seems, he seems almost noble in 

99
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a lot of ways. 
And one of the things that I 

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really liked was that speech he 
gave at Stanford in between his 

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two illnesses, because he got 
sick again. 

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And he was actually pretty when 
he did, we did the Gates jobs 

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interview. 
I think that was 2005. 

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He was in great shit. 
You saw he was very quite robust

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and and then he got sick again. 
But he gave that speech during 

106
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that time period. 
And I have to say, listening to 

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it, it's it's like it just, I 
even today I listened to it over

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00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,000
and over again, this idea that 
death actually is the fuel that 

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creates innovation because your 
mortality gives you enough 

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00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,760
urgency to do things. 
So it's a very complex and 

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00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,520
beautifully written thing. 
He had to have written it 

112
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himself. 
It's too personal not to bend 

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that way and does. 
Does legacy drive you or how 

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00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,720
much do you think? 
Oh, I've got a clock. 

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00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,000
And I need to achieve this. 
Yes, it's not legacy. 

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It's it's that I I'm aware of 
time. 

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00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:29,760
And I think that's what that's 
was the impetus. 

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And so was he. 
And I think it's not lost to me 

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that he created the most 
incredible things while he was 

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sick. 
That's his most fertile period 

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00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,960
of creation, which was amazing 
when you think about it, whether

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it was the whatever everything 
was during his illness periods 

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or right before it, right near 
it. 

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And so I thought that was, I 
thought he's, you know, he's an 

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interesting character in that 
regard. 

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And then it just went so far 
South after when it was more 

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about narcissism, you know, 
narcissism. 

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I want to live forever. 
You're. 

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00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,440
Not saying Apple specifically. 
No, Oh, not Apple, the the men 

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who came after him. 
And I think the next visionary 

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because Steve was the visionary 
for a long time and sort of the,

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the, you know, the template for 
the mogul kind of their people 

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had looked up to that. 
And then it became Elon, I 

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think. 
And Elon's a whole nother ball 

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00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,280
of wax, even when he was not 
quite as toxic as he is now. 

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I want to ask about the doc one 
more question, but we should 

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talk about Elon Brian Johnson. 
Like did you find, what did you 

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find sort of redemptive or 
redemptive? 

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00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,080
Or valuable. 
I don't know about valuable. 

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I just wanted to, I wanted to be
fair to him because I think he 

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00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,400
himself makes himself a circus 
act. 

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00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:37,680
And he talked about that like 
he's. 

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00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,400
Trying to build almost like a 
cult around the. 

144
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Ideas. 
And he knows why he attracts the

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00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:43,480
mockery. 
He can't say he's a victim 

146
00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,480
because he attracts it with his 
ridiculous photos and the blood 

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thing and the all the all this 
stuff he just posted today. 

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Like I just had sex with Kate 
last night. 

149
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Cool. 
Like fuck you. 

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00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,560
Like, you know, I think he was 
doing it just to be provocative.

151
00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,680
And so he's doing that so fine. 
And what I found interesting, I 

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00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,440
met he appeared at one of the 
last code conferences when he 

153
00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,120
wasn't this Brian Johnson 
talking about brain issues and 

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00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,240
cognitive issues and his own 
depression and AI. 

155
00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,160
He was one of the first person 
people in Silicon Valley who 

156
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,880
really had his arms around where
AI was going after he'd sold his

157
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,760
company. 
And and then he reappeared as 

158
00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,760
this, whatever this is. 
And so I have to say I thought 

159
00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,200
it was pretty fair to him. 
A lot of the recovery is like, 

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00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:25,880
she gets him. 
I'm like, I don't, I let him 

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00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,440
speak. 
He gets himself like that kind 

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00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,200
of thing. 
And I question things. 

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00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,600
And but, you know, I think my 
point to him is that you're 

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00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:35,760
spending all this money when you
could spend money on gold 

165
00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,560
standard tests that would help 
the rest of us. 

166
00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,680
If you really care about 
humanity's health, why are you 

167
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,120
just doing an experiment of one 
which tells us he's like, oh, 

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00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,240
and then I'm sharing it. 
I'm like, your health doesn't 

169
00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,680
matter to the rest of our eyes. 
You're just one person. 

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And so it doesn't give you any 
real data except about your 

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00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,160
erections. 
And that doesn't matter. 

172
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,800
It's not going to, it's not 
going to be replicated across 

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the population. 
So it's sort of so narcissistic,

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like, what are you doing it for?
Because it isn't going to help 

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lots of people. 
It isn't. 

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00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,160
And then you're selling 
supplements on top of it it, and

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00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,440
then T-shirts and then 
gatherings. 

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00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,920
And so it's far, so far away 
from someone who actually wants 

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00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,040
to help people live longer and 
healthier. 

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00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,160
And so that's what offends me 
about it. 

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Did you have you watched the 
Louis Theroux? 

182
00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:21,720
Yes, I interviewed Louis just. 
Oh, great. 

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00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,520
Yeah. 
I mean, in some ways what you're

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00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,680
talking about has similarities 
where it's this collision of 

185
00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,240
sort of journalists culture with
like influencer culture and 

186
00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,039
letting them sort of reveal 
themselves. 

187
00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:36,280
Instead of I, I don't think. 
Obviously it's not toxic. 

188
00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,240
And I don't think he's a con 
man. 

189
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,080
I don't think he's a con man. 
I think he's someone who is 

190
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,280
probably a little unhappy and is
searching for meaning. 

191
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,520
And those guys are clearly 
trying to sell you some stupid 

192
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,560
scheme, Bitcoin scheme or dumb 
supplement thing, or here's how 

193
00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:56,360
to get ahead in real estate. 
They're all just just grifters 

194
00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,000
really. 
I don't consider Brian a 

195
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,080
grifter. 
I it's something else, probably 

196
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,160
deeper and sadder, You know, and
it sort of is that what's 

197
00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,680
happened to a lot of the Silicon
Valley people, they're so 

198
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,920
absorbed in themselves and they 
feel like they must live 

199
00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:11,640
forever. 
Like, and I don't mean live 

200
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:12,800
forever, but you know what I 
mean. 

201
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,440
Like they must go on because 
they're the finer people and 

202
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,200
then they become mutated. 
You know, whatever you think of 

203
00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,600
what Phases has done to his 
body, they're all doing things 

204
00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,720
to their body, which is really, 
you know, and then they like, 

205
00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,960
let's not talk about the body. 
I'm like, but look what you did.

206
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,640
Like we talk about women when 
they'd have a facelift and then 

207
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,280
not them. 
And so I think this body 

208
00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,560
changing is physical changing is
interesting to me. 

209
00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,600
What what did you make of Marc 
Andreessen? 

210
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,920
Sort of coming out against 
introspection. 

211
00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,160
It's such nonsense. 
Like you don't think he's even 

212
00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,800
serious about it or? 
I think he says things just to 

213
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,280
be provocative. 
He's done that his whole life. 

214
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:47,680
He's was like that when he was 
young. 

215
00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:49,000
I met him when he was quite 
young. 

216
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,080
And he's always tries to be sort
of the troublemaking gesture in 

217
00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,440
the room, you know what I mean? 
And so that's not a new fresh 

218
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,720
thing, whether remember the 
Indian thing he said. 

219
00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,160
He always says something, 
really. 

220
00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:59,440
Well, I don't think he wanted 
that one. 

221
00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,200
He really stepped in it. 
This no. 

222
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,640
I'm not so sure. 
I, I think he just, he knows 

223
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,160
what he's, he's just, he's an 
incredibly smart person. 

224
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,920
Let me just tell you, he's not 
that dumb. 

225
00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:10,560
He knows what he's doing and 
he's always doing. 

226
00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:12,960
And when we used to text all the
time, he's very funny. 

227
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,360
He's got a very wicked sense of 
humor and you know, except his 

228
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,800
sense of humor is tearing people
down like and dunking and 

229
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,200
tininess, smallness. 
And so I found it. 

230
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,360
I found it. 
I'm like, OK, whatever you 

231
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,680
child, but he's he is 
introspective. 

232
00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:29,880
That's not true. 
He has a very I think he has a 

233
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:31,920
very complex life. 
He isn't simple. 

234
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,040
He doesn't just go ahead and he 
what he does is he successfully.

235
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,680
I'm not a psychiatrist, but if I
was raising him, I'd say he 

236
00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:42,160
successfully buries his pain, 
which is there's obviously a lot

237
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,000
of family pain there or 
something that he's just decided

238
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,480
to leave behind. 
Yeah, you know much of this 

239
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,320
story. 
Yeah, I do. 

240
00:10:48,680 --> 00:10:50,400
You know, I think he doesn't 
talk to his family. 

241
00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,160
As I recall, he's talked about 
it with me a long time ago. 

242
00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,000
He may not recall it, but he 
doesn't, and he never explain 

243
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,600
why and they don't know why. 
Not specifically about Marc 

244
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,000
Andreessen, but I do think a 
failure of how we live our 

245
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,840
public lives right now is that 
people can become characters 

246
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,120
without us having any sense of 
like their family life, right? 

247
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,840
If you know someone offline, 
you'd be like this person's 

248
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,920
respected in the community like 
people are, they're a little 

249
00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:18,360
bit. 
About his personal life, yeah, 

250
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,240
his wife is lovely. 
Laura is lovely. 

251
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,440
I'm not trying to, but I do 
think there's sort of like 

252
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,960
people can become these sort of 
like characters on He's a. 

253
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,880
Character like he's. 
Without giving a full picture of

254
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,840
like their human. 
Yeah, but I think he likes to be

255
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,800
the. 
I think he sort of relishes 

256
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,760
being the pirate when in fact 
he's the man, right? 

257
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,120
Like I'm, oh, I'm just telling 
it like I don't know what it is 

258
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,280
for him. 
I've never I, I can't say I've 

259
00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,920
ever had a significantly 
profound discussion with him. 

260
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,080
I've had a lot of tweets back 
and forth in late of the night 

261
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,200
about Sarah Palin or whatever's 
happening. 

262
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,960
You know when you last talked or
was there a year of the fall? 

263
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,320
He got mad about something. 
I don't even know. 

264
00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,360
There's such petty little shits.
When you sort of started salary?

265
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,720
On I think I was very critical. 
No, he didn't. 

266
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,280
I don't think he minded that as 
much. 

267
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,360
I, I don't know, he probably 
thought I was too negative about

268
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,760
because he was at a lot of code 
conference, you know, he came 

269
00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,080
and did a lot of really 
interesting, interesting 

270
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,440
interviews. 
Very again, very smart, many of 

271
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,960
them or morons and he's not 
right or moronic, I guess is 

272
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,200
what the better word to use. 
But he he he probably thought I 

273
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,240
was too tough on Facebook or 
Mark or who knows who knows? 

274
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,000
They're they're so petty. 
I'm like, man up, grab, you 

275
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,480
know, grab your sack and we're 
in the big, big leagues now. 

276
00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,720
You can take criticism. 
And so, and as it's turned out, 

277
00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,160
by the way, like I, I hate to 
say it, but looks like I was 

278
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,000
right. 
Like about what they've become 

279
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,240
and how. 
They judge it well. 

280
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,040
Yeah, money, their attitude and 
also we made money. 

281
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,360
Public sentiment is extremely 
negative on the. 

282
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,920
Tech you just saw the most 
recent stuff, the the Gallup 

283
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,400
poll today. 
Yes, it's because it's not good.

284
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,240
And and I think this, if I had 
to guess, and this is just me as

285
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,680
someone who has a lot of kids is
a lot of these people weren't 

286
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:04,440
hugged enough as children. 
I don't know what to say because

287
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,680
they are desperate for 
affirmation. 

288
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:08,960
And if they don't get asked 
affirmation, they throw 

289
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:10,640
tantrums, right. 
They're like, and that's why I 

290
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,920
call them toddler adults. 
And you sort of in that it was 

291
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,480
there before, like I was 
thinking about someone that 

292
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,840
reminded me of something that 
was my book, which was when I 

293
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,360
was at excite, they had the 
slide between the two floors. 

294
00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,520
You know, they had all the 
children's toys everywhere, 

295
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,600
whether it was at Google, Excite
and stuff in the very early 

296
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,400
stages or Excite, they had a 
garage front, even though it was

297
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:32,840
a building. 
And I was like, you're 

298
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,280
performatively pretending you're
still on a girl, like who does 

299
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,560
that? 
That's not 14, right, 

300
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:40,720
essentially. 
And so at one point they were 

301
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,080
like, slide down the slide, 
Kara, like when I was there to 

302
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,680
write a profile of them for the 
Wall Street Journal. 

303
00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:46,520
And I'm like, no, I'm not going 
to slide down your slide. 

304
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,560
And they're like, slide down. 
Everyone does. 

305
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:51,320
I'm like, I didn't like it at 4.
I don't like it at 40. 

306
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,000
And I'm not going to do it like 
I'm not playing your game. 

307
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,600
Period where they were 
pretending they. 

308
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,600
Wanted me to put it in the 
profile like, oh, here with the 

309
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,280
bouncing balls. 
And instead, like when, you 

310
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,680
know, Google would show off any 
manner of scooters or zip blades

311
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:09,160
or, you know, they wanted it in 
the piece kind of thing, 'cause 

312
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,400
we're childlike. 
Well, I was like, you're 

313
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,960
childish is what? 
Which is different kind of 

314
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:15,640
thing. 
And I didn't want to, like, 

315
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,800
indulge them in that ridiculous 
performative stuff. 

316
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,360
I mean, this is a big question 
to ask, but you know, Silicon 

317
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,240
Valley would say we at least 
have sort of a positive vision 

318
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,360
for what we want. 
That's what I'm going to ask. 

319
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:29,840
Like what is your positive 
vision? 

320
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,160
You know what, what do you 
think? 

321
00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,680
How do you want people to be 
spending your time, their time 

322
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,840
or how do you think about sort 
of the organizing? 

323
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:37,560
Well, you. 
Want people to, I want them to 

324
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,680
be thinking of more people than 
themselves. 

325
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,440
They're so interested in 
themselves and so interested. 

326
00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,680
You know, there's a great new 
series out called The Audacity. 

327
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,920
I just did the the the creators 
of it and some of the stars in 

328
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,600
it and producers and I love it. 
It's really, I love Silicon 

329
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,200
Valley. 
I was an advisor to it, by the 

330
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,760
way. 
I was in it these this is 

331
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,880
Jonathan. 
I think it's Glatzer who's doing

332
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:01,360
he was from succession and a 
bunch of stuff. 

333
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,680
He they are depicting the sort 
of more serious and sad elements

334
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,520
of what's happening. 
And I have to say there's one 

335
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,040
line that and I had to tell you,
Zach Galifianakis is so good in 

336
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:13,800
it. 
And the only thing I'm mad about

337
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,400
is I have sympathy for them and 
I can't stand them like, and 

338
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,200
that that's how successful this 
is. 

339
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,480
But he says they should they 
should they, they're so hateful 

340
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,360
to us now. 
They should throw us parades for

341
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,800
what we've done. 
And I'm like, you know what? 

342
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:28,840
The Internet was built with 
taxpayer money. 

343
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,400
You were helped innumerable ways
by the government and just saw 

344
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,240
Gore, you know, right. 
And you shit on it like as if 

345
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,520
you weren't helped and and 
pushed up by others. 

346
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,680
And so I think the selfishness 
in that much wealth is what 

347
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,040
really drives me crazy. 
And it's not and it's a lot like

348
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,200
this documentary. 
It's like, are you doing it for 

349
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,400
yourself or are you trying to 
help a lot of people? 

350
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,880
And the only person I see 
helping are the women, which are

351
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,560
like, like Mackenzie Scott, 
who's just given a $70 million 

352
00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,840
from Meals on Wheels. 
She's trying to help us in the 

353
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:04,200
now and that to me and and all 
every time they do something 

354
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,680
shitty, it's like, well, our 
stock is worth a lot. 

355
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,640
And for me, what I said to one 
of them, it might have been 

356
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,160
Mark, you're so poor. 
All you have is money. 

357
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,000
Like you're poor. 
And and I want them to be 

358
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:16,800
better. 
And the reason why Burn Book was

359
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,120
called Burn Book a love story 
because I love tech and I think 

360
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,080
it has great possibilities. 
But the only thing they're doing

361
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,080
with us is surveilling us, 
trying to control us, and now 

362
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,880
trying to infect and destroy 
politics, right? 

363
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,400
I mean in in burn book. 
Which wasn't Bernie enough? 

364
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,360
He's not negative. 
And you're like, oh, I should 

365
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,560
have been meaner in. 
No, I don't think that. 

366
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,640
I thought I was fair. 
I thought I was fair. 

367
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,480
Several, one person who after I 
wrote it came up to me because 

368
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,880
everyone has an opinion, said 
you're real mean to them here. 

369
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:49,920
And I'm like, I don't think I 
am. 

370
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:51,240
I think I'm fair. 
I think I am fair. 

371
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,200
And then the other day the same 
person, I'm fair. 

372
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,280
He goes oof, looks like you 
weren't mean enough. 

373
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,040
Well, you can never you, never 
I. 

374
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:58,680
Don't really give a fuck, like 
it doesn't matter. 

375
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:00,480
But I was like, let's look at 
this. 

376
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,160
These are the people. 
It's not like they're a small 

377
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,119
section, like a hardware store 
in a small town. 

378
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,640
These people are affecting 
social, they're affecting 

379
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,119
politics, they're affecting 
communities, they're affecting 

380
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,560
health. 
Like they have enormous power 

381
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,599
and now they're controlling 
politics like. 

382
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,520
But I think there's a story of 
it that's, you know, you have a 

383
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,760
relationship with them. 
You go to them for sources, 

384
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,680
you're getting scoops. 
And like, sometimes you're like,

385
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,000
this is morally objectionable. 
And there's a period of time 

386
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,200
reflecting what your sense of 
like, the public and sort of 

387
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:32,800
goodwill is. 
And they would be responsive to 

388
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:34,080
that, and then they'd make 
corrections. 

389
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,880
And so it's like, OK, tech 
exists in sort of this dialogue 

390
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,120
with the public. 
Then there's a period where, 

391
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:44,520
like, the tech industry and the 
public sort of phase out of each

392
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:45,720
other. 
And so you're saying, oh, the 

393
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,120
public thinks this and they 
don't seem to give a shit. 

394
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:50,240
And so you're more negative. 
I'm not. 

395
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,520
Negative. 
I am telling them the truth, 

396
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,400
they are hurting people and so 
why does the cigarette look? 

397
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:58,200
Give me an example. 
Let. 

398
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,960
Me just can I just finish it? 
I mean, I think the thing they 

399
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,720
would say is they stop talking 
to you and then Cara gets very. 

400
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,800
Mad because. 
It's like the the relationship. 

401
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:08,960
Breaks down. 
I don't want to. 

402
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,320
Talk to them and you don't need 
them anymore because you pivot 

403
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,240
in yes. 
To sort of the critical no, that

404
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,480
is that's crap. 
That's that's what a small child

405
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,600
would think like I'm sorry, it's
I'm an adult. 

406
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:18,520
I don't. 
That's not how well. 

407
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,800
But the relationships drive like
even as a reporter, it matters. 

408
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:23,760
I'm not covering them as a beat 
reporter. 

409
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,000
That's certainly true. 
And I think I actually was far 

410
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,160
too kind actually and just. 
Back in the day. 

411
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,560
Yeah, only because I thought it 
was really exciting what was 

412
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:31,720
happening. 
I really did. 

413
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,760
It's like watching, you know, 
the gold, Like people cross the 

414
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,920
country and discover America and
you're like, this is amazing. 

415
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,760
And then, oh, God, you just 
killed all those Indians. 

416
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,080
You just what? 
Like. 

417
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:44,440
And I feel like it's more like 
The Great Gatsby. 

418
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,720
I'm Nick in The Great Gatsby. 
And then you're like, just a 

419
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,440
fucking second here. 
Tom and Daisy stop hurting 

420
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,840
people. 
And one of the, which they 

421
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,720
always were in that particular 
instance, one of the things that

422
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,280
I think is problematic is I, I 
started writing for the New York

423
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,680
Times because, and I think I 
clocked, I'm sorry. 

424
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,760
I, I, I know I say I'm right, 
but I was right. 

425
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,480
Like when I wrote that piece 
where I said they're weaponizing

426
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,960
the First Amendment, they're 
weaponizing this, they're 

427
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,400
weaponizing that. 
There will be downstream effects

428
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,560
of what they're doing. 
Because I studied propaganda in 

429
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,360
Hitler's Germany. 
I you, if you study history for 

430
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:17,480
five seconds, you see what was 
going to happen. 

431
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,920
And there were two moments. 
One was this interview with 

432
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,440
Zuckerberg, not the sweating 
one, which was I felt bad for 

433
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,560
him in that case. 
But when he said Holocaust 

434
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,240
deniers don't mean to lie and 
therefore I'm letting them do 

435
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:29,320
whatever they want on my 
platform. 

436
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,040
And I said downstream 
anti-Semitic violence will will 

437
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,240
explode you under. 
And then I'm like, he doesn't 

438
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,520
understand, except he's in 
charge of it and none of us can 

439
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:40,800
do it. 
With the irony of that 

440
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,640
particular incident, where's the
Mark Zuckerberg was trying to 

441
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,080
take what he saw as like a 
principled stand, which was, if 

442
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,520
I'm going to bite the bullet and
say that we shouldn't moderate, 

443
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,360
I should bite the bullet on the 
thing that's most personal to 

444
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:55,480
me. 
That was APR. 

445
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,360
That was APR. 
But it's in some ways it was 

446
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,360
don't be bad tactics to bring up
the hall. 

447
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,720
I think he he went in my 
session. 

448
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,520
Talking about Alex Jones, that's
what we were first to, which is 

449
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,000
a clear cut case of someone 
breaking every rule of Facebook 

450
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,240
and instead they're trying to 
switch out of it. 

451
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,120
Don't have rules then don't you 
know, I think he was trying to 

452
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:17,480
please and he was under the 
Cheryl was pushing that more and

453
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,240
then he suddenly got to be a man
and got to do and do his own 

454
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,600
thing. 
When I wrote a piece and it's 2 

455
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,080
pieces in the times when I went 
there so I could get their 

456
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,320
notice, I was like, now you're 
going to fucking listen. 

457
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,720
They were listening to me 
before, but I was like, what 

458
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,880
you're doing is so dangerous for
the rest of our country and 

459
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,560
hurtful to kids. 
Same thing with, well, I'll get 

460
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,160
to that in a second. 
But so I wrote that they had 

461
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,200
they had they had weaponized all
these things. 

462
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,920
They weaponized and amplified 
hate. 

463
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:43,920
And I'm this is going to have 
bad effects. 

464
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,760
And now Trump is here who 
understands it as one of these 

465
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,480
charismatic leaders. 
This is not good for the rest of

466
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,240
us and the body politic. 
And there's all kinds of 

467
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:55,960
problems with the United States 
of America. 

468
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,920
I'm not saying that, but this 
takes this. 

469
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,400
This sends us in a very 
dangerous direction. 

470
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:06,280
And they acted like they had no 
responsibility then, right? 

471
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,000
In 2019, I wrote a piece, and 
I'll never forget this, for the 

472
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,120
times where I predicted the 
insurrection. 

473
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:13,520
I said, what happens if Donald 
Trump loses? 

474
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,280
This is I wrote in 2019, Donald 
Trump, go look at the text. 

475
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,640
It's crazy. 
I, I felt like, I felt like like

476
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,120
Nostra fucking dumbest, but I 
was like, what happens it if 

477
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,400
Donald Trump loses the election,
Here's what he's going to do. 

478
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,960
He's going to go to his 
followers online that he's 

479
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,920
already ginned up in a state of 
rage because enragement equals 

480
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,160
engagement. 
And he's going to tell them in 

481
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,200
the real world to do something 
about it and and claim fraud 

482
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,840
because he's already starting 
with the fraudulent stuff, 

483
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,040
right? 
You could see him start it and 

484
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,720
he's going to do that. 
And then they're actually going 

485
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,880
to stop the election. 
They're going to try at least to

486
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,400
stop the election, which is 
precisely what they do. 

487
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,360
When I wrote that piece, I got 
so many angry messages. 

488
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,560
I don't think Mark wrote me, but
a lot of them did. 

489
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,240
How dare you think we would 
start it? 

490
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,280
And I used the word insurrection
in the piece. 

491
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,400
And they were like, how dare you
accuse us of being part of the 

492
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:03,960
thing? 
I was like, how dare I? 

493
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,280
That's that. 
I can see down the fucking Rd. 

494
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,200
because I took history courses, 
which you didn't apparently take

495
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,720
or anyway. 
And so that was pretty bad. 

496
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,600
But then with this AI stuff 
again, watching them do put roll

497
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,120
out these chat bots and kids get
to use it. 

498
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,640
You know, we stopped Joe Camel. 
I'm sorry, you just. 

499
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:23,960
You. 
So yeah, I want just. 

500
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,800
Yeah, I'm saying they what? 
Do you see value in language 

501
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,000
models? 
To me, yes, social media and 

502
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,400
language models. 
A problem right now is 

503
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,920
politicians are over 
extrapolating from the social 

504
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,240
media area. 
Of course, like to me, I think 

505
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,360
language models, at least as 
they exist right now and we 

506
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:41,080
could drift from that. 
But like today, they're trying 

507
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,760
to be truth based because they 
that's how they reason. 

508
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,000
They. 
They bring us sort of closer to 

509
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,120
a shared reality. 
Do they? 

510
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,480
I, I think so. 
I don't know because right now 

511
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,440
it's sort of a standard set of 
answers for different users. 

512
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,680
Obviously you have memory, but 
if you want this general purpose

513
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,960
model then it needs to be able 
to generally reason. 

514
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:02,720
There's all kind look at you can
use a knife as a weapon or a 

515
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:04,640
tool, but she's with it or kill 
someone. 

516
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:05,800
It's like that's the way it 
goes. 

517
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,440
But when I saw these character, 
when the minute I saw a 

518
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,520
character AI and the rest of 
them, I'm like, oh, no, no, no, 

519
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,000
no, this isn't user Jenner and 
they try to claim it's user 

520
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,120
generated content. 
It's not. 

521
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,640
It's doing something else. 
And then they unleash it on 

522
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,480
teens who are anyone who has 
children under understands they 

523
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,600
shouldn't be using this product 
just the way they shouldn't be 

524
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,320
using cigarettes, just the way 
we, we age gate lots of things. 

525
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,360
And they've made it so we have 
to now age gate it because they 

526
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:35,640
won't stop making shoddy, shitty
products that hurt people. 

527
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,200
And then they're like, it's not 
our fault. 

528
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,880
But then when you read the 
transcripts, it is their fault 

529
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,440
because they made a product that
was shoddy. 

530
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,320
And the thing I, I don't know 
why other other corporations 

531
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,560
aren't pissed the fuck off. 
They get all these passes. 

532
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:54,600
They have no rules on them When 
when air when Alaska air the the

533
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,680
door blew off, you remember that
What happened to Alaska Air 

534
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,000
when? 
They really get sued and. 

535
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,040
Suits everywhere. 
Lawsuits everywhere. 

536
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,200
I. 
Mean these companies are getting

537
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,800
sued. 
Now they are. 

538
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,600
They're the richest company now 
they have so much advantage. 

539
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,360
They got so much of A of a thing
because Congress and others 

540
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,760
refused to regulate, including 
Obama. 

541
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,760
By the way, I'm not like it's 
not just Trump. 

542
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,000
That's the coin operated 
president. 

543
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,920
I don't think Obama was a coin. 
He just didn't do it. 

544
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,360
But you know, Alaska Airlines, 
they get sued, investigations by

545
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:25,200
States and federal people, 
lawsuits. 

546
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,400
The CEO was fired over a door. 
All these things happened and no

547
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,760
one pays like the insurrection. 
I don't think it's Mark 

548
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,160
Zuckerberg's fault, but I don't 
think he helped and I think he's

549
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,520
part of it. 
I just the rum who got I. 

550
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,040
Just think like language models 
they're inventing like a 

551
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,880
fundamentally new intelligence 
that's going to reframe, except 

552
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,200
the entire way. 
Like except Eric, we're. 

553
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,160
Going to have an advances in. 
Acting like lawyers, sure, I and

554
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,400
I that's absolutely true, but 
that's their little marketing 

555
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,280
point, which I agree it'll 
happen you. 

556
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:56,240
Know sort of demos to Savas 
working at Google. 

557
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,800
I feel like he is motivated. 
Demos is great, but meanwhile 

558
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,960
they're also doing other things.
And so why aren't we? 

559
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,520
Why? 
Why isn't there an ability to to

560
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,560
why are they able to put out 
these chat bots for kids? 

561
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,040
It's a very simple question. 
You want to age gate them. 

562
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,360
I don't know now because. 
Taylor Lorenz, who I respect as 

563
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:19,560
out being making the smart point
that age gating is going to kill

564
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,360
you know that's. 
One of the arguments there's 

565
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,920
like, guess what? 
We should let all kids drink. 

566
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,680
We should let you do it all the 
time. 

567
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,960
The problem is if you're you 
have to identify people to age. 

568
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,560
Agree. 
It's very difficult, no 

569
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,520
question. 
But we're smart people. 

570
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,640
How can we? 
How can we figure out a way to 

571
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,000
do things? 
And I'm not talking about a 

572
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,320
nanny state, but we do it 
everywhere else. 

573
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,440
If I were other companies, they 
all have. 

574
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,480
Look, Deli on my fucking corner 
has more laws on it than the 

575
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,200
tech industry. 
I just think experiencing the 

576
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,560
Trump administration has made me
personally less interested in 

577
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,800
regulation because we see an 
administration eager to 

578
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,280
weaponize every government tool 
they have. 

579
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,320
And I'm surprised that you're 
still. 

580
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,720
On that, what did the tech 
people come in and do I think we

581
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,640
could do Legislation can happen.
I'd look, this is this is a 

582
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,000
moment in time and we'll see 
what happens. 

583
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,560
Because he's a coin operated. 
What did they figure out if you 

584
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:09,960
were around? 
By the presidency. 

585
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,320
That's correct. 
And it what happened was, and if

586
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,480
you were around when I started, 
Bill Gates famously came to the 

587
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,400
Washington Post when I was there
as a young reporter. 

588
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,200
I invited him there to meet 
everybody. 

589
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,760
He wasn't quite the world's 
richest man, but he was close. 

590
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,880
He came in, he arrives in a cab.
The whole he did the whole like 

591
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,560
I'm a simple guy kind of thing, 
which he was no, but he was. 

592
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,400
He didn't arrive. 
He was like that right. 

593
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,840
He was unbathed at that time and
he didn't wash his hair, which 

594
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,680
was noted by the people there. 
And and he started saying I 

595
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:39,880
don't have lobbies. 
I don't care about wash. 

596
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,000
I'm just going to make my stuff 
out in Redmond. 

597
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,880
And I said I'll never figure. 
I said to him, I said, you know,

598
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,120
this is a town of student body, 
ex ex student body vice 

599
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,520
presidents who love a with a 
subpoena, like you've done 

600
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,840
things that are problematic and 
or you will do things that are 

601
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,080
problematic. 
And they came after him and then

602
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,080
they, they all lobbied up and 
they girded up on that. 

603
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,160
And but they still had this even
Google had this attitude is 

604
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,120
like, we'll hire what suits 
Molinari, we'll hire blah, blah.

605
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,760
But they didn't care about it. 
And then the penny clicked with 

606
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,760
people like Elon and David Sacks
and others. 

607
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:14,400
Just a second. 
These people are cheap. 

608
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,120
Like we disdain them but we now 
can buy them and Trump is just 

609
00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:22,360
happens to be the most easily 
transactional person. 

610
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:23,960
But isn't this a case against 
government? 

611
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,040
No, it is not. 
It's a case against Trump. 

612
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,280
It's a case. 
No, it is not our government. 

613
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,960
Like sometimes when I listen to 
tech people, they're like, oh, 

614
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:32,760
we do more than the government. 
We deserve this. 

615
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,520
I was like, get off the fucking 
roads. 

616
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,840
The highways get, you know, the 
government did that. 

617
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,600
I don't know. 
I think World War 2 went pretty 

618
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,080
well for us. 
I think like the government has 

619
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,320
done all manner of amazing 
scientific research. 

620
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,640
And by the way, guess who 
invented the Internet? 

621
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,680
The government like, so why not 
work hand in glove with the 

622
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,560
government instead of letting 
them decide everything? 

623
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,160
And I'm a I'm a big believer the
government shouldn't do that 

624
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,000
because companies can move 
faster and innovate and do and 

625
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,760
they have the capitalist impetus
to do so, which is great. 

626
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,440
But what happened to that 
public, private thing? 

627
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:05,920
I. 
Just think we're we're literally

628
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,680
in a period where the Trump 
administration is buying stakes 

629
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,120
in companies about to throw 
money around communists. 

630
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,920
So I call them socialists, 
right? 

631
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:13,960
Yeah. 
So I don't know. 

632
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,560
I just think there's a dangerous
argument to make at this moment,

633
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,080
at this moment, because they're 
going to lean into it and 

634
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,000
they're going to get tons of 
money from the federal 

635
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,680
government. 
Constitution and it's the Trump 

636
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,120
administration. 
They're corrupt. 

637
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:27,880
COIN operated a bunch of 
grifters, absolutely, but it 

638
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,880
doesn't mean we abandoned the 
American experiment because 

639
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,760
these bunch of grifters are in 
charge right now. 

640
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,960
Now we know, just like with with
Nixon, things happened after 

641
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,280
Nixon, we cleaned it up and 
we're going to clean it up 

642
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:40,760
again. 
That's what's going to happen. 

643
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,480
And you can see, listen, six 
months ago I I said on pivot, 

644
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,760
Trump is over. 
You don't see it's now you can 

645
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,200
see it. 
You can see what's about to 

646
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,680
happen. 
Just this, just this week, Look 

647
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,680
at the you have to pay attention
to the signals. 

648
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,560
You don't see every single 
person in the Maggie Haberman 

649
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,960
piece in the New York Times, 
which she did with John Swan, 

650
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,800
who are great reporters. 
They all of a sudden are running

651
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,840
for the fucking exits. 
I didn't want it. 

652
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,440
It was farcical, said according 
to sources close to CIA head. 

653
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,520
Who do you think those sort Come
on, Rubio didn't was was sort of

654
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,480
quiet. 
You know, the and the person who

655
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,760
really objected was JD Vance. 
Who do you think leaked that? 

656
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,800
Do you think it was JD Vance or 
his minions? 

657
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,080
Absofuckinglutely. 
They're all going like. 

658
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,800
This yeah, but it's still a 
dangerous. 

659
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,040
I mean, obviously the defense, 
the Secretary of Defense is all 

660
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,040
in he's. 
Going to be fine. 

661
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:30,720
It's. 
A dangerous. 

662
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,560
Situation. 
You know why? 

663
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,640
Because I know Trump. 
I've paid attention to Trump and

664
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,520
how he behaves. 
He's if you think he's, he's a 

665
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,480
mob boss, he's not, he's, he's 
not going to be left holding the

666
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,720
fucking bag. 
They're trying to give him the 

667
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,200
bag right now. 
The rest of them, because 

668
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,040
they're smarter, you know, Vito 
and Marco and Vito and the rest 

669
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,120
of them know what's about to 
happen and they're going to the 

670
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,160
moron who is Pete Hegseth, who 
is who is not a true believer, 

671
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,360
but he's got obviously a 
drinking problem, etcetera. 

672
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,680
And he's not very smart. 
It's going to be holding the 

673
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,000
bag. 
I want to talk about Sam A. 

674
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,720
Little Nikki or whatever. 
Watch a mob movie and you'll 

675
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,400
understand what's about to 
happen here I. 

676
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,440
Want to talk about Sam Altman? 
I mean, obviously there was this

677
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,960
great New Yorker profile on him.
And he brought together a lot of

678
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,760
stuff that a lot. 
Of other people, yeah. 

679
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,360
You've done great reporting 
case. 

680
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,320
He's done a lot of people done 
great reporting on the on the 

681
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,920
discomfort with Stamol I. 
Still think it was a good piece.

682
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,920
I think I loved it. 
Some of these beat reporters can

683
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,920
be a little bit like, well, 
nothing's new. 

684
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,800
And I just think it's no, yes. 
It was no, I have no, no, Ronan 

685
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,880
is, he's a friend of mine. 
So I'll say that he's 

686
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,520
exceptional at putting together 
and drawing the lines together. 

687
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,120
And I think he does that 
beautifully. 

688
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,120
And you know, he obviously is 
one of the Pulitzer Prize for 

689
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,280
the Weinstein stuff, but he's 
really, he's a very big, he's a 

690
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,040
he's so smart and he really he 
connects dots and I think it's 

691
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,560
critically important connect 
dots in these things. 

692
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,640
So no ones following every SO. 
This is reductive, but is Sam a 

693
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,560
villain now on your mind after 
that piece? 

694
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,000
No, no. 
I thought, I think that's what's

695
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,560
the take away. 
I don't. 

696
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,760
I think. 
I think he's rubbed a lot of 

697
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,680
people. 
Although, you know, what am I 

698
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,120
like compared to Marc 
Andreessen? 

699
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,040
No, no, I think Marc 
Andreessen's a bigger villain. 

700
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,480
If I had to, if you want me to 
stack rank them, Peter Thiel's 

701
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,920
at the top of the villain group,
but he's. 

702
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,960
Also, sometimes you're 
sympathetic to Thiel in the 

703
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,080
sense that he's been at it for 
the whole time. 

704
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,760
Here's what I value with him. 
He's always been conservative. 

705
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,480
He's not in you know, Johnny 
come lately, He's always said, 

706
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,320
you know, he and I did a which 
is now lost to time. 

707
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,160
This amazing video where we 
argued about with the First 

708
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,800
Amendment, Matt and she's smart.
He's so smart in the 14th 

709
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,920
Amendment. 
And you know, I, I, there's no, 

710
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,240
one of the things I'd like to do
is even if I don't like someone,

711
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,840
if they're really smart, I can't
pretend like you're dumb. 

712
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:39,920
They're not. 
He's not dumb. 

713
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:41,880
He's quite an interesting 
thinker. 

714
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,240
And a lot of it is vile. 
But it's also, it's remember 

715
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,720
when Ruth Ginsburg and Scalia 
used to argue with each other? 

716
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,880
I'm obviously on the Ginsburg 
side, but there's no 

717
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,480
questioning. 
Scalia was brilliant. 

718
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,120
Amy Coney Barrett seems pretty 
fucking smart. 

719
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:57,520
I don't agree with her on a lot 
of things. 

720
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,960
You can see it when when you 
read her writing, you're like, 

721
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:02,600
oh, OK, this is the smart law 
professor. 

722
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,160
Which is honestly part of what 
infuriates me about tech's 

723
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,360
current political attitudes. 
Because, you know, Twitter, if 

724
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,400
Twitter is a representation of 
what they want, it's, you know, 

725
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,680
cat turd and all these like, 
idiotic accounts. 

726
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,360
And they act like they can't 
tell what's smart and what's 

727
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:18,960
dumb, who's thoughtful and who's
not. 

728
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,280
They're just morons. 
Just try to use the word moron 

729
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,280
more your own and it really 
bothers people. 

730
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,320
I'm like, you're a moron. 
And they're like, oh, that's not

731
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:26,280
an argument. 
I go it's not. 

732
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,520
I just think you're a moron. 
And actually, but I will say 

733
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,400
Teal is smart and I've read all 
his books. 

734
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,400
You know, I, I, I understand 
where he's going. 

735
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,160
I just don't agree with him. 
And that's different. 

736
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,000
And so the problem is they all 
figured out that trolling and 

737
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,680
being kind of ridiculous was the
way to go rather than actually 

738
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,040
have a really good debate and 
certain people you couldn't have

739
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,040
a big debate about. 
I had Thom Tillis on the other 

740
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,000
day on my podcast. 
Very smart. 

741
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,480
With Sam, I mean, part of what 
we're saying is Peter Thiel has 

742
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,040
like a point of view that's 
somewhat thoughtful. 

743
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,280
Sam, it does feel like ambition 
rules everything. 

744
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,960
Isn't that the most dangerous 
thing you could be, where you're

745
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:04,720
always just chasing power? 
Well, well, have you? 

746
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,360
Is that something fresh and new 
for you? 

747
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,040
Like ambitious. 
Young men who want things. 

748
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,360
I mean, I don't know. 
I, that's been my, my experience

749
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,760
for everybody, I think. 
I think what's the problem with 

750
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,360
Sam? 
He's a chameleon and I met him 

751
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:17,520
when he was 19. 
I right? 

752
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,560
I mean, I mean, Sam, I mean, to 
put it more directly, he's sort 

753
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,480
of the, you know, were you too 
close or, you know, he's 

754
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,280
moderating you for the book 
tour. 

755
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,840
Like there is a certain your 
relationship with him colors. 

756
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,000
Your point of view. 
You say that though you like 

757
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,080
friend is like a word you just 
don't use for tech people. 

758
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,800
You're not my friend, but I 
mean, I like you, but no, I 

759
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,120
mean, you know. 
Especially with this line of 

760
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,760
question, no. 
No, I get that. 

761
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,280
I'm too close to them. 
I was too close to. 

762
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,320
I mean, I, I'm but I'm, yeah, 
I'm close to them, but I'm not 

763
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,040
sort of like playing that. 
It doesn't influence like who I 

764
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,040
spend. 
Time with or not in the group of

765
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,560
people that includes Marc 
Andreessen and Elon. 

766
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,880
Sam is better. 
Sorry, I'm sorry. 

767
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,920
Yeah, he lies to people. 
Big fucking news. 

768
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,960
So does, so isn't. 
That the thing as a report, that

769
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,080
as a reporter that offends me 
the most, that I mean the lying,

770
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,480
because it's just so hard as a 
reporter to to navigate, you 

771
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,199
know, we depend on. 
I see my line is anti humanity. 

772
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:12,800
So I just everyone has their 
things. 

773
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,080
People lie to me. 
I don't know, like what are you 

774
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,120
kidding? 
News flash at 11:00, I've had so

775
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,760
many people lie to me over the 
years. 

776
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:22,320
I mean, just like in, in four 
days, like, like I would have 

777
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,040
people lie all the time. 
Mark Andreessen, at one point, 

778
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,600
Mark, I was reporting that he 
was leaving AOL and he says it's

779
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,719
absolutely not true. 
And I go, Mark, if you tell me 

780
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,840
this like he was telling it to 
me directly and it's true, 

781
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,639
that'll make you a liar. 
And he goes, I'm absolutely not 

782
00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:40,560
leaving the next day. 
Press release. 

783
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,719
Oh my God. 
And I all I wrote to him was 

784
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,920
pants on fucking fire. 
And it was like, I don't if I 

785
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,080
got offended by everyone who 
lied to me, I would be offended 

786
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:48,760
all the time. 
And. 

787
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,440
And I this is a wiser 
perspective than mine, 

788
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,840
certainly, that the effect on 
humanity matters more. 

789
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,320
I I think he is. 
And if you look at Open AI and 

790
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:58,360
what they're. 
Doing here, I think he is 

791
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,720
nowhere near as dangerous. 
AI is. 

792
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,320
Yeah, I think he is nowhere near
as dangerous as Marc Andreessen 

793
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,400
or Peter Thiel in terms of their
impact or, or even in Emile 

794
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,120
Michael right now because of the
stuff he's doing to Dario. 

795
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,400
And and I don't think anyone see
the problem is everyone's become

796
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,800
a hero or a villain. 
And it's it's much more complex.

797
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,400
I'll tell you what I don't like 
about Sam is he's very clearly, 

798
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,200
he tells people what they want 
to hear, which is a pleaser. 

799
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,600
And at the same time, it seems 
that it's more manipulative than

800
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,280
anything else. 
It's it's morphed into 

801
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,640
manipulation, right. 
But he's a he's been a pleaser 

802
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:34,880
his whole life. 
I can tell you it's. 

803
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,480
Not a great strategy, honestly. 
It's not. 

804
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,800
And then his lack of interest in
safety I think is a real thing. 

805
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,240
I think he he wants to jam shit 
through and he absolutely does. 

806
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:49,640
And he also wants to. 
I think he tells people 

807
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,280
different things, which is but a
pleaser does and I don't, and 

808
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,920
I'm not letting him off the hook
by that, but he's in charge of a

809
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,840
very important company and 
therefore it should have a 

810
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,720
little bit more fucking 
responsibility about what he's 

811
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:03,920
doing and maybe, you know, sack 
up and be a better man, that 

812
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,400
kind of thing. 
Like, and a lot of people have 

813
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,040
look, Mark Cuban was such a jerk
when I met him and I really 

814
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,240
enjoy like he's evolved someone 
like Evan Spiegel's another 

815
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:15,000
person who I was such a jerk. 
Being a little bit of a jerk 

816
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,440
never bothered me, Isn't it? 
They can have a little swagger. 

817
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,000
You know, I honestly don't care.
They're not again, they're not 

818
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:25,480
my friends and what I think it 
is is that it's more I have 

819
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,080
hopes for some of them like that
they because they have such 

820
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,640
responsibility, right. 
They have such enormous 

821
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,400
responsibility. 
But look at someone like Tim 

822
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,720
Cuckoo. 
I like quite a lot right as have

823
00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:37,880
had a relatively cordial 
relationship over the years. 

824
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,280
Think he's done amazing things 
for from a shareholder's 

825
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,600
perspective. 
At the same time, the minute he 

826
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,680
did the Melania thing or called 
him like a quiz, the statues, 

827
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,880
it's quiz. 
A part of me, he thinks he's 

828
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,720
taking it for the team like he's
leaving. 

829
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,280
So let him take all the fucking 
Flack for that. 

830
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,320
The same time he's absolutely 
tarnished his reputation. 

831
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,520
I still like him. 
I just, but I just. 

832
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,240
I'm disappointed in this. 
Question is going to be the most

833
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:03,240
woe is me small potatoes thing. 
But don't you think saying tech 

834
00:37:03,240 --> 00:37:06,720
Bros all the time just is so 
dismissive? 

835
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,120
You know, like, there are lots 
of people in the industry, but 

836
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,640
many of them are building 
fairly, like morally neutral. 

837
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,760
And I'm not referring to them, 
I'm not, but they. 

838
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:15,760
Feel. 
Sort of. 

839
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,880
Like, Oh no, you're kidding. 
Wah wah I. 

840
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,920
Mean I I I guess I still do 
believe Silicon Valley is the 

841
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,000
place in the world and the 
United States that is most 

842
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,200
working to build. 
Let me. 

843
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,600
Throw something back at you. 
Why are they the fucking victims

844
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:29,800
all the time? 
I you know what? 

845
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,360
I know real victims. 
I know the kids who have killed 

846
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,640
themselves using products they 
use. 

847
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,720
I know kids that live in Sudan 
like like there's, there's 

848
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:42,080
victims all over the world. 
They are not victims. 

849
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,920
And I their feelings, I don't 
care. 

850
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,920
I don't care if they feel 
victimized. 

851
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,480
Isn't bad for our society, like 
we want to encourage people who 

852
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,520
are doing stuff you know, that's
productive that we want them to 

853
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,120
do to keep. 
Yes. 

854
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,160
Why are they going productive 
than a teacher like why? 

855
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,840
Because they're rich stop it. 
They're not, trust me, they are 

856
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,160
not more productive. 
And this idolatry of innovators 

857
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:05,880
is ridiculous. 
But. 

858
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,360
You like technology? 
I love technology, but I don't 

859
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,720
think, listen, I think a banker,
a deli guy, a nurse, anybody is 

860
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:15,400
a hero to me. 
These, these fucking astronauts 

861
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,240
up there, they're so much higher
on my stack than these people. 

862
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,480
And I'm and, you know, thank you
for the mapping stuff, which, by

863
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,120
the way, was created by the 
federal government that you just

864
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,520
took and, and then sold it back 
to us. 

865
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,360
Those astronauts I have great 
regard and respect for. 

866
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,480
And they're just as good and 
just as important as someone who

867
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,840
makes a dating site. 
I'm sorry, I just I'm not going 

868
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:42,040
to like I I think it's great the
things they've done and look, 

869
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,000
Henry Ford, astonishing 
industrialist made the car. 

870
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,920
Car was important. 
That fucking anti semite, like 

871
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:50,880
fuck him. 
Like I couldn't have two 

872
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,520
feelings. 
Same thing with Edison. 

873
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,160
Jerk, jerk, jerk. 
Thanks for the light bulb, but I

874
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,040
don't have to constantly be 
thanking you for something. 

875
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,280
And that's my thing. 
And what the reason we thank 

876
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,880
them is because they got money. 
They're so poor. 

877
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,120
All they have is money. 
And so I'm not gonna give them 

878
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,880
any more than I would give a 
teacher. 

879
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,560
Then I would give there's only. 
From a purely pragmatic point of

880
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,000
view, isn't there an argument 
that like Biden not inviting 

881
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,440
Elon to that stupid? 
Thing just. 

882
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,240
Doing sort of like I, I think, 
you know, people underestimate 

883
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:27,080
how I, I'm sympathetic to the 
argument. 

884
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,960
You get paid in money. 
That's what the money's for. 

885
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:30,480
The classic Mad Men. 
That's what the fuck. 

886
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,560
The tech people. 
But the tech people don't feel 

887
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:33,880
that way. 
Like business executives. 

888
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,480
Guess what? 
They do it because they want to.

889
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,000
We care about social standing 
more than we care about you know

890
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,520
what money in someone. 
That's what the fucking money's 

891
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,240
for, and you have a lot of it 
kids. 

892
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,480
And you know what? 
Take that money and buy yourself

893
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,760
the finest dog in the land. 
I don't really care. 

894
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,640
I don't care if you feel good. 
I don't get Get married, have 

895
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,360
children, find your hopes and 
dreams, Elon. 

896
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,040
When Elon didn't get invited, he
called me a lot and was 

897
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,720
complaining about it. 
I'm sure he called a lot of 

898
00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:01,320
people, but I remember that 
because he was so mad about it 

899
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,600
right with the time we were 
speaking at the time and and it 

900
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,640
wasn't that long ago, right. 
So and I called the people the 

901
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,360
White House. 
I said, I cannot believe you 

902
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,600
didn't invite him to that and 
I'd see why because and they're 

903
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,920
like unions, blah, blah. 
And then they went overboard and

904
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,960
was praising Mary Barra as and 
there's no question Elon gets by

905
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:20,960
the way, the Google people were 
there first, but. 

906
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,160
He was the one that pushed the 
cars through, right? 

907
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,840
He really did. 
He was the one who really mushed

908
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,640
them, get them, get them into 
place and deserves all the 

909
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,480
credit for that. 
He deserves the credit, but not 

910
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,440
everything. 
And I'm so sorry he has doesn't 

911
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,320
feel loved enough by the Biden 
administration. 

912
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,440
But again, sack up Sir. 
It's the way life. 

913
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,960
Works, but from a pragmatic 
perspective they. 

914
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:46,360
Should I said you? 
Should I? 

915
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:50,160
What I said to the Biden people 
at the time was you need to have

916
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,280
a man and you need to pet him 
down like you need to stroke. 

917
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,840
Daniel Laurie and San Francisco 
is doing such a great job. 

918
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,560
He's trying saying nice things 
about them, but otherwise 

919
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,320
running. 
He's trying, but trust me, 

920
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,800
behind the scenes, it's not 
something they love to do. 

921
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,200
Like it's just why are we doing 
this to a bunch of the richest 

922
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,880
people on the planet? 
Why do they get extra special 

923
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,520
cookies? 
Like here's a good example. 

924
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,880
When I was a kid, my my mom 
worked. 

925
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,920
It worked after my dad died. 
And we would just have to stay 

926
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,520
at this if she worked in a 
department store and we'd have 

927
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,000
to stay in this place called the
birdcage. 

928
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,120
And it was that sex with that 
and Brahma tell I don't 

929
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,600
remember. 
And every, when we'd sit in 

930
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,480
there and have lunch and with me
and my two brothers and then 

931
00:41:29,720 --> 00:41:34,320
waitress used to come and, and 
say, you know, dessert time and 

932
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,040
they go, it's boys day. 
Boys get 2 desserts and girls 

933
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,200
get just get 1. 
And I was like, all right, I'll,

934
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,080
I'll bite. 
And they got 2 desserts. 

935
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,360
I got one. 
It was always fucking boys day. 

936
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,320
I and at one point, and this was
me as a six year old, I said, 

937
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,360
why is it always boys day? 
There's never girls day. 

938
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,200
Oh, you just didn't come here on
the right day. 

939
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,760
I'm like, no, no, it's never 
girls day. 

940
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,520
So I just want you to answer. 
I said I don't want another 

941
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,280
dessert, but I just want to know
why it is. 

942
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,440
And to me, some of the whiny 
that they do, they're such, 

943
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,960
they're so whiny about being 
victims and they deserve it. 

944
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,560
I I urge you to watch this AMC 
because Zach does a beautiful 

945
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,000
job at this. 
Why are we so coddling of the 

946
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,360
world's richest people? 
They can afford therapists. 

947
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,960
They can buy themselves a wife 
or a husband or whatever they 

948
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,040
want. 
They can buy a dog. 

949
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,120
They can buy an island. 
They can buy France. 

950
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,680
As far as I don't really care. 
Jeff Bezos wants to rent Venice 

951
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,360
for his wedding. 
Seems a little much to me, but 

952
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,760
knock yourself out, we do not 
have to. 

953
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:35,040
We are constantly wondering how 
Elon feels when people across 

954
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,680
the world are dying due to his 
careless stupidity. 

955
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,320
Part part of how America works 
is that thankfully we want power

956
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,360
to be more diffused, not to me 
not totally aligned in like 1 

957
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,480
president or one government. 
And like companies are a way 

958
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,120
that we sort of diffuse power. 
People can run different 

959
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,760
experiments and if and so like 
they have worked hard to sort of

960
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,040
build their little mini cults 
with their little mini visions 

961
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,000
of the world and they want to be
sort of a small participant in 

962
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:04,640
this like. 
They don't want to be a small, 

963
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,520
they don't want to be a small 
participant. 

964
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,080
Are you watching what they're 
doing and the funding that 

965
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:11,800
they're doing? 
They're funding. 

966
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,360
He tried to change the by the 
way, he's lost badly. 

967
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,480
Now it's five to two liberals in
Wisconsin. 

968
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:18,200
Good job, Elon on that one. 
Right. 

969
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,440
To be clear, I would never 
defend Elon like no, but I think

970
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,240
there is definitely a project to
sort of kill American democracy.

971
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:26,360
I'm very worried about it's 
just. 

972
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,000
This is. 
The Trump Channel. 

973
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:33,040
My problem is that by sort of 
hitting with such a large 

974
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,440
target, you're sort of you're 
attacking anybody who could be 

975
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,520
your friend. 
I like all the people who were. 

976
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:39,840
I don't want to be friends with 
them again. 

977
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,320
They're not very. 
Friends, you're ally. 

978
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,560
You're like trying to build a 
vision of the world. 

979
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,640
That you want to see, I talk to 
lots of great technology people 

980
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,440
and they make beautiful things, 
but so do a lot of people. 

981
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,400
And our, our, our, our 
viewfinder is far too much with 

982
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,480
the wealthy. 
And listen, that happened back 

983
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,800
in the Gilded Age. 
It happened before that it 

984
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,160
happened in ancient Rome. 
This is what always happens. 

985
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,600
But I don't think this small 
group of homogeneous people 

986
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,800
should have such power over 
communications, politics, 

987
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,520
social, now media, because 
that's where they're headed, 

988
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,400
right? 
And and healthcare, like why do 

989
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,440
they get to run everything? 
And because they are 

990
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,880
homogeneous, they even if you 
think they aren't, they are. 

991
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,840
And some of them are a little 
more liberal than others. 

992
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:25,400
Some are more preserved than 
others. 

993
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,000
I just don't think 1 industry 
should be calling the shots on 

994
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,720
everything. 
And I, I can't believe I'm 

995
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:33,960
actually saying this, but I 
would rather have Ted Cruz make 

996
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:39,320
decisions about AI because he's,
here's why he's elected by the 

997
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,160
people. 
And they spent a, they, they 

998
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,120
regulate pharmacies that farm, 
you know, drugs. 

999
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,520
They, they regulate cars, they 
regulate planes, they regulate 

1000
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,080
oil and gas. 
What they don't regulate is 

1001
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,280
tech. 
So why do they get off when 

1002
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,640
they're able to do that? 
And our, this is the government 

1003
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,400
we've chosen is a representative
government of the people. 

1004
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,160
I believe in the people a lot 
more than them. 

1005
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,120
I just people are the consumers 
who can choose one time we. 

1006
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:05,480
Don't have it? 
Or another. 

1007
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,920
They can spend their time on one
thing, or they can spend their 

1008
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,720
time on something else. 
It's a monopolistic system. 

1009
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:11,960
Stop it. 
It's not true. 

1010
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,000
I mean, they can read my 
subject, they can go on Twitter 

1011
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:14,760
like they. 
Choose. 

1012
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,160
How they spend their. 
Time. 

1013
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,360
Right now, Facebook dominates. 
So years ago I didn't have it. 

1014
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,800
Ben Horowitz and I was talking 
about investing. 

1015
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,640
The antitrust fight has largely 
been like a disaster. 

1016
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,600
It's because. 
We haven't changed the antitrust

1017
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,920
laws in 100 years because 
everything is different. 

1018
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,880
We've got to think about, 
listen, I'm not a big proponent 

1019
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:37,080
of big regulation, but there's 
none like 0 regulation. 

1020
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,720
So why can't we do the basic 
stuff? 

1021
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:41,160
We haven't passed a privacy 
bill. 

1022
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,200
Why does all my stuff get to be 
used and abused by them? 

1023
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,920
That why do I have to trade away
my privacy and not have control 

1024
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,840
over stuff? 
I mean, ma'am, Donnie is doing, 

1025
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,080
I think literally this week, 
sort of like one click 

1026
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:55,320
unsubscribe. 
There are lots of things I'm 

1027
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,640
sure we would agree on that we 
should do. 

1028
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,080
But why did see? 
The thing is, they get all the 

1029
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,760
advance, They get all the 
advance. 

1030
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,440
They are born on third base 
right now and they think they've

1031
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,080
hit a home run. 
And I have nothing but regard 

1032
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,960
for all kinds of inventors. 
Back to Ben Franklin. 

1033
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,400
I love a Ben Franklin, but 
nobody envisioned that they 

1034
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,040
should decide on everything, and
I don't. 

1035
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,520
I can't stand Ted Cruz, but he's
elected by the people of Texas. 

1036
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,400
He's a represent now. 
He gets bought and paid for by 

1037
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,000
them, of course. 
But why can't our 

1038
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,400
representatives decide? 
Even if it we move slower, even 

1039
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,680
if it's that is how democracy 
works. 

1040
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,520
They don't. 
They hate democracy. 

1041
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,360
They, you know, Peter talks 
about at least Peter says it out

1042
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,560
loud, right? 
That's why I appreciate him. 

1043
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,760
OK, now I see where you're 
coming from. 

1044
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,960
Last, last question, tight. 
By the way, you're a lot nicer 

1045
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,880
than am I am. 
You would say I'm nice to Sam 

1046
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,840
Allman, but man. 
Oh, I, I said I sided with the 

1047
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,240
board during the whole period 
while you were tweeting in his 

1048
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:51,920
defense. 
So I. 

1049
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:53,680
I was, I didn't. 
I did. 

1050
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,680
In that specific instance, I 
stuck my neck out pretty far. 

1051
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,520
What did you say? 
I I wrote that people should 

1052
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,600
listen to the board and that 
there had been this incident 

1053
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,800
with YC and Elon. 
They messaged it poorly. 

1054
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,640
But yeah, I do think people 
didn't understand what the real 

1055
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,360
reason. 
No, I think then at the time in 

1056
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,960
that case and that board got out
of whack, they had two people, 

1057
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,400
the conservative guy will from 
Texas. 

1058
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:14,240
He stepped off. 
He. 

1059
00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:18,200
Stepped off and Reid stepped off
and then it became an uneven 

1060
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,440
board because they were kind of 
in the middle kind of stuff and 

1061
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,960
therefore the group that was 
very much safety oriented got 

1062
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,080
too much. 
I thought it became a problem 

1063
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,200
with the board. 
I think they clearly executed it

1064
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,400
poorly, but like Ilya, Mira had 
come with complaints. 

1065
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,760
But then didn't. 
Have left the company. 

1066
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,280
She has, but then she's done her
own thing. 

1067
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,080
I don't know. 
I, I think I was in terms of 

1068
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,720
what was the losing sort of 
popular position at the time I 

1069
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,600
held the one that was out like 
the public sentiment on Twitter 

1070
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,480
was yours, right. 
And mine was the the minority 

1071
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,320
position that I think is bearing
out overtime. 

1072
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,760
The except is it? 
I mean, look, look, Ilya went 

1073
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,440
off and took all that money. 
So like, nobody's cleaning? 

1074
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,800
Nobody, nobody. 
And you know, Mira's taken like 

1075
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,080
no, accountability doesn't talk 
about. 

1076
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,080
It, I'm sorry, I just don't 
believe that there's same thing.

1077
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,520
I'm just saying on that 
particular one, I'm not, I'm not

1078
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,480
giving you the. 
Moral victory, not a moral 

1079
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,400
victory. 
I just think it's what I think 

1080
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:12,840
it is. 
It's very complex. 

1081
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,280
And I don't think those safety 
people were as clean, not clean.

1082
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,760
That was my point, that there's 
just more history to Sam. 

1083
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,600
I mean, I think part of the 
problem with the board, yes, is 

1084
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:21,640
there hadn't been sort of the 
predicate. 

1085
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,480
They hadn't gotten pieces out 
about Sam that would explain to 

1086
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,200
people why he was seen as a liar
privately. 

1087
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,480
And my piece was just saying, 
oh, there is a long history of 

1088
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,760
people thinking to me that. 
Wasn't honest to me, that was a 

1089
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,200
board that got out of whack and 
one group that was one group 

1090
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,000
took back power and they had a 
point of view that was quite 

1091
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,080
inflexible, by the way. 
And the other side had a point 

1092
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,360
of view that was quite 
inflexible and that she goes to 

1093
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,400
board dynamics where you should 
have a board that is much more 

1094
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,640
balanced. 
So you can argue it out right 

1095
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,720
That to me it's it's like the 
same thing with Supreme Court if

1096
00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:54,160
it has too many but. 
You've just given this whole 

1097
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,000
spiel about how they shouldn't 
have so much power. 

1098
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,280
What? 
Why is Open AI Sam Altman like 

1099
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:00,360
it shouldn't be, right? 
Well, then what's it matter? 

1100
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,800
Like if the board sort of 
thinks, oh, maybe let's try 

1101
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,600
anybody else like somebody else.
I think they did it wrong 1st 

1102
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:08,640
and then it doesn't matter how 
you do it and the employees were

1103
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,320
behind him and I tend to go. 
Because there was this huge, 

1104
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,160
there's a huge amount of money, 
there's a tender offer that they

1105
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,200
wanted. 
I mean, I mean, I agree that the

1106
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,120
board failed to. 
Actually, they didn't have the 

1107
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,440
employees, but. 
You're given this whole speech 

1108
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,480
about how we shouldn't 
overempower people, and then 

1109
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,000
you're sort of very worried 
about. 

1110
00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:27,120
One guy, no, I'm not worried 
about him. 

1111
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:29,200
If he doesn't do a good job, he 
should be fired. 

1112
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,480
OK. 
I don't want anybody to be able 

1113
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,920
to have too much power. 
And in that situation, the board

1114
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,760
had too much power and then he 
had too much power and it 

1115
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:39,880
creates an out of whack. 
I don't like any of these 

1116
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,880
companies where Mark Zuckerberg 
can't be fired, for example. 

1117
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:46,360
They're monarchies as far as I'm
concerned, and that's never 

1118
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,720
healthy, especially when it's as
serious as by the Way. 

1119
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:50,760
Isn't that again an argument for
firing Samuel? 

1120
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,040
It's so hard for these boards 
ever to take action. 

1121
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,360
Well, that's if you could really
get a majority of the board to 

1122
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,600
say, oh, we don't want this guy.
That's a pretty. 

1123
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,000
It was a majority of a side of a
board. 

1124
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,600
It was not an even handed board.
It was not. 

1125
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,280
It just was. 
And by the Will Hurd, it's Will 

1126
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,280
Hurd had a very he had a very 
mixed feeling. 

1127
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,800
And I like a person like that so
that you have someone, you know,

1128
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,840
there was a group that was very 
much inflexible and by the way, 

1129
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,800
anti innovation compared to the 
idea that they should be able to

1130
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,040
innovate, right. 
And I'm actually more on their 

1131
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:22,920
side there's. 
Sort of two EA people. 

1132
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,320
But then there's Ilya. 
There's Adam D'Angelo, who is 

1133
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,200
at. 
I know, but there's also all 

1134
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:32,000
these interpersonal. 
I just think it's a lot more 

1135
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,360
comebacks. 
The thing that offended me in 

1136
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,760
that thing was the the the 
anti-gay stuff, which I was 

1137
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,360
getting in droves. 
And that's what motivated me 

1138
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,560
because I was like, you want to 
have a fair fucking fight? 

1139
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,320
Keep the anti-gay stuff out. 
Like if you want to say he's 

1140
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,080
this and that and here and 
there, that's one thing. 

1141
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,360
The second thing is what why do 
you need to employ that? 

1142
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,720
And I do think Elon was around, 
you know, again, Elon putting 

1143
00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:55,440
himself out as the great 
releaser. 

1144
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:56,960
Come on, stop it. 
It's all. 

1145
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,480
And by the way, it's all about 
the money in the end for all of 

1146
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,640
these people. 
It's, you know, that whole Sam, 

1147
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,760
I don't get paid crap like he'll
get paid. 

1148
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,960
He gets paid plenty that kind of
stuff. 

1149
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,880
And so I don't like, I would 
prefer it that there be a range 

1150
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,400
of people, but tech is no 
different than the board of 

1151
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,360
Procter and Gamble where things 
like where they stack the board,

1152
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,800
the CEO gets paid, he gives 
money to his hand, his best 

1153
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,840
friends, and they do all manner 
of crap. 

1154
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,040
So why is that different from 
anything else? 

1155
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,760
Because it's tech and it's more 
dramatic and cartoonish. 

1156
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:31,440
And I think we, I think we do 
cover. 

1157
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,600
And I would say myself when I 
was covering it too and too much

1158
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,680
in a cartoon fashion, it's 
becoming even more cartoonized 

1159
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,760
now when it's much more complex.
Great. 

1160
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:43,400
You have a hard stop. 
Thank you so much for coming. 

1161
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,400
No. 
Problem, I'm like, I'm like, 

1162
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:46,640
you're getting good at this. 
You're getting. 

1163
00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:49,680
That was my conversation with 
Kara Swisher. 

1164
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:54,640
Always fun to engage with Kara. 
She's she's spicy. 

1165
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:56,000
She knows how to podcast better 
than me. 

1166
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,360
So kind of gotta keep learning. 
Thanks. 

1167
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,080
Thanks. 
Like comment, subscribe, follow 

1168
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:02,520
the channel. 
You can check us out at 

1169
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,280
newcomer.co. 
You can go back and read my ODE 

1170
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,720
decode in the newcomer sub stack
if you want to get some of the 

1171
00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:13,480
history on me and Kara Swisher. 
And yeah, thanks for listening 

1172
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:15,920
and see ya next week or see you 
later this week. 

1173
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:17,640
Probably got a good one coming 
up.