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Welcome. 
Hey, it's Eric newcomer, I'm 

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here with dead cat. 
We've got both Tom and Katie. 

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We're doing a host only episode.
We're gonna start off in disgust

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dead cat classic. 
Yes. 

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Sort of the real where we really
get to fight it out with nobody 

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interfering and stopping us from
just endless endless stream of 

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take theirs, but oh no, 
journalism happening. 

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This is a journalist so we're 
going to talk about what we'll 

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get to the market, which I'm 
excited to talk about in the 

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second half. 
But we're going to start off 

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talking about spotify's decision
to keep Joe Rogan on the program

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and let Neil Young pull his 
music and then sort of sub 

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stack, obviously, close to home 
for me where I published 

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newcomer has been in the news 
since the Washington Post and 

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the guardian both. 
Said that you know subjects 

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making like 2.5 million or some 
broiling small amount of money 

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in the scheme of business off, 
anti-vaxxer sort of 

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misinformation and so sub stack 
has been drawn into the Free 

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Speech fight and you know, sub 
stack wrote this post. 

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Basically just anyway, we'll 
talk about that in a second. 

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Tom Katie, any initial take on. 
I mean, the core issue. 

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I mean, should Joe Rogan be on 
Spotify, or do you? 

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Do you have a strong point of 
view on on the core issue to 

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start off with? 
I'd like to stick to the Neil 

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Young part of it. 
Well, yeah, I agree. 

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That's the interesting part like
yeah. 

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Are they losing Crosby? 
Stills, Nash and Young too 

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because that's a bigger hit to 
me, personally, I mean, I like 

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both catalogs but you know, csny
has personal residence to maim, 

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I grew up listening to my mom 
was obsessed. 

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Listen to the deja vu record 
constant, make sense this all 

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tracks Tom. 
Now we do. 

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My I'm like, yeah. 
No. 

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I would heavily heavily 
inundated by csny and then I saw

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Peter. 
Frampton is also pulling down in

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his catalog to, so we're losing 
the Boomers, but yeah. 

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Seventies are coming back to 
attack and Frampton live. 

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That is too bad weather. 
It's Frampton over there, still 

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young. 
I think the interesting part is 

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that issues around freedom of 
expression and when I wouldn't 

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even call it free speech. 
Because if you look at the First

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Amendment, the way it's written 
is about whether the government 

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to prohibit the speech. 
Of citizens, but I mean freedom 

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of expression, right? 
And misinformation these issues 

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that we would normally look to 
authorities to resolve or being 

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resolved in the free market 
essentially by various actors 

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deciding, whether or not they 
want to participate in a 

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platform rather than any kind of
Regulation. 

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And I think that's what's 
fascinating to me. 

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Also, that it's a Swedish 
company. 

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You know, like, we're all 
viewing this through the lens 

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of. 
I mean, obviously the first 

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amendment is misapplied here but
The, my understanding and 

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talking to some folks and I'm 
not really reporting this. 

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Just these are casual 
conversations people in and 

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around Spotify, is that they 
actually very strongly believe 

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in people's, you know, freedom 
of expression and that is more 

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important than I would have 
thought out of a Swedish 

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company. 
You would think, you know, 

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stayed over each. 
They would love to regulate 

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these kinds of things, but 
they're not that bothered from 

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like, a corporate level. 
I think by the idea that there 

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is like, bullshit being traffic 
to their platforms, I mean, it 

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is an issue with Rogan 
Specifically, because he's not 

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it's not just a platform, right?
It's not just Apple podcasts and

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distributing it through there. 
They pay his they'd be you know,

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they'd rise checks that you 
know, he's on there for, he's 

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their star podcaster that you 
know your subscription money 

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goes directly to him. 
So there is a connection, I'm 

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not saying that I agree or you 
know, that's not my stance but 

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like it isn't purely a platform 
argument in the same way that I 

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think a lot of people want to 
apply it to Facebook or even 

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apple as like a podcast 
platform. 

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I think the Free Speech part of 
this is sort of a misdirect 

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right in sub Sachs policy which 
will come back to. 

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They were like we will continue 
to take a strong stance in 

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defense of free speech because 
we believe the alternatives are 

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so much worse and to me that's 
just like an empty statement 

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everybody is going to say in the
western world that they believe 

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in free speech to some degree 
what what they're missing is 

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really like the case law, right?
The sort of, okay, you can't 

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say, You know, there's fire in a
burning building or whatever. 

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And all of these companies admit
that there's some line, most of 

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them would not host storm front,
right? 

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So the United States as a 
country believes in free speech,

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and we've had sort of a long 
evolving sort of legal history 

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to Define what that exactly 
means and what all the burdens 

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are. 
So for these tech companies to 

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come out and just say, we 
believe in free speech, often 

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feels like they've missed just 
like they're they're behind on 

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the debate. 
It's like oh, Find your own free

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speech. 
That that's really not here, or 

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there. 
It's how you define all the 

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narrow points and then it's what
is your policy on being anti 

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vax? 
Or, you know, is that a red line

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or not and what are the lines 
and how do you do decide what 

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speech isn't part of this sort 
of productive debate? 

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So I just think the statement 
that your for free speech is 

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just sort of pompous because 
it's when you're when you're 

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also saying quiet, Or quietly 
we're for free speech. 

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Except for in the moments were 
not and we could write our but 

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we're not going to really talk 
about it right on sub stack. 

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A lot of people are dunking on 
them because they don't allow 

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pornography. 
And so it's, you know, you 

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clearly don't allow free speech 
in the way of marriage. 

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You know, America allows 
pornography and there, it's for 

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free speech. 
You clearly have lines about 

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what you allow and it, you know,
on one level of looking at it 

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seems crazy that you're okay, 
you're not you're okay with 

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People leading people to their 
deaths by arguing that they 

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shouldn't take the vaccine. 
I don't really understand. 

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Thank part of us because there 
are these really strict Federal 

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prohibitions on things, like 
child pornography, for which a 

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company can genuinely get into 
trouble, right? 

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And that is something that would
be a disaster for a platform. 

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Whereas the federal government 
hasn't really told us where the 

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lines are around. 
In your words leading people to 

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their deaths by spreading this 
information. 

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So you can see from right if you
were the general counsel you 

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would say Definitely, no 
pornography and you know maybe 

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when the government says that, 
they'll get there, we'll get in 

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trouble with this 
misinformation. 

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Then we will ban it, right? 
That's why the free speech thing

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is also so frustrating because 
they're clearly often acting out

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of their own economic interests,
and have these perogative 's in 

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terms of what the laws are and 
what they might get Super Saiyan

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4, but they make it seem like 
it's some principled stance 

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totally detach from all these 
economic decisions. 

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So you're giving this sort of 
high-faluting, I mean these 

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companies are basically run by 
Jerry from Succession. 

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But what are they going to? 
I mean, yeah, the honest answer 

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is like we pay Joe Rogan's. 
You know, we signed Joe Rogan's 

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paychecks and he is a huge 
moneymaker for us. 

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Therefore, the financial loss 
that we would take by kicking 

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Rogan off. 
The platform is far worse than 

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losing Neil Young's catalog like
1970s onwards, right? 

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So it gets different gets more 
interesting. 

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If a contemporary artist leaves 
it gets more interesting if 

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Beyonce or Taylor Swift is like 
I'm out. 

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This is ridiculous. 
Yeah, no. 

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Hugely. 
So, I just want to say on the 

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core issue, I think Joe Rogan 
should be allowed to be on 

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Spotify, they should pay him. 
I wouldn't pull my music from 

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Spotify. 
We're hosted on, WE publish on 

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Spotify, by the way, so if you 
wanted to take a stance you can 

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put we're on Spotify as a 
platform. 

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We get no money from right out 
of fry whereas you know all of 

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these artists are getting 
residuals for. 

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I guess if I was doing executive
we're again Spotify I would have

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said oh Rogue. 
And should be are like billboard

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artist. 
So we're going to pay a ton of 

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money to come on. 
They knew what they were getting

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into. 
I mean in so much as they even 

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pulled some of his older 
episodes because they're like, 

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all right Joe, let's give you a 
clean slate. 

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You're on Spotify now. 
Let's see what you give us and 

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you know probably 85 to 90 
percent of the time, they're 

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completely fine. 
You know. 

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It's like when he interviews 
carrot-top, that's not going to 

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piss anybody off. 
I mean I haven't really well. 

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I don't know about that. 
Well, yeah, actually watch part 

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of that interview. 
Crimes against humor, he's a 

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dumb guy who talks about MMA 
like and sort of admits that, 

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right? 
I mean, regular guy, he's 

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already most popular podcast or 
by a long shot and there's a 

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reason for it. 
I just think it's much more 

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pernicious. 
If some guys like, I'm a doctor,

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here's what you should believe 
about the vaccine while the tech

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platform is providing no 
rebuttal or like effort to to 

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say, well, the scientific 
consensus doesn't agree. 

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But for Joe Rogan, where it's 
like, this is some random guy 

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who has it. 
Minions and sort of has a 

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popular show. 
Are people really that misled 

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that they're hearing from some 
dumb guy who interviews people. 

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I'm sure they have a line with 
him. 

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Why is Joe Rogan the most 
popular podcast or Tom because 

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he speaks in a you know kind of 
a approachable affable Cadence 

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he kind of sees always thinking 
out loud and just sort of 

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whatever bubbles up there. 
He seems like open to it and 

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then very lightly debates it to 
himself. 

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And then moves on also, you 
know, he's an MMA guy and 

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there's like no filter. 
I mean It's all right. 

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Yeah, I have watched a number of
his interviews. 

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I think they're very watchable 
and right and entertaining. 

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And yeah, yeah. 
I mean it's in the same way that

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people in Los Angeles have been 
kind of like ambiently absorbing

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Ryan Seacrest for like 20 years 
even though they don't really 

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know why and they don't really 
have strong feelings about him, 

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he's just sort of there and I 
think Rogen's the same thing. 

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It's he's not a hard-hitting 
interview, but I don't know if 

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it's also incredibly long. 
Each episode is like three or 

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four hours. 
H which is like you know 

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definitely they're probably you 
know spot at spotify's getting 

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their money's worth in terms of 
like minutes from from Rogan. 

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But it's a huge show and I think
it's even grown as he's joined 

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Spotify. 
Like this is worked for them. 

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This isn't like buying something
at its peak and then slowly 

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declining. 
Like they got, they got a hot 

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and podcasts, there was actually
a good story that Lucas shot at 

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Bloomberg. 
Did a couple weeks ago saying 

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like podcasting as a medium is 
really hard up on trying to get 

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Hit shows, there aren't that 
many things that kind of Bubble 

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Up and become incredibly, you 
know, watched or listened to 

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shows. 
And so the fact that they have 

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like a true genuine star, 
they're like there. 

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It's going to be hard for them 
to block away from that given 

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how much of their, you know, 
their strategy is about 

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podcasting right now and there 
is something annoying about 

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liberals and the left that they 
want to try and make spotify's 

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entire brand about Joe Rogan, 
when he's one of many people 

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that they pay money for. 
And Like appeals to a certain 

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audience and their, I don't 
know, it can be a little 

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Annoying. 
Obviously there's something very

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free-market about people, 
pulling their content and 

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protesting and you can 
capitalism to get that what they

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want. 
And so I'm sympathetic to that. 

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But then there's also just sort 
of like a sensory as sort of 

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attitude where it's like just 
whining about everything that 

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people like is that said, 
there's clearly a lion for 

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Spotify. 
I mean if he were to go out 

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there and say things Better 
unambiguously racist. 

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They would pull him, right? 
I do you think I got spotify's 

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line? 
I guess. 

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Racist is sort of, you know, 
things get a little muddy there,

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but if you were to, I mean, I 
guess there are and First 

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Amendment violations or not 
violations. 

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But if he were to Advocate 
violence, well yeah, anything 

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anything that he could be, that 
would bring about a criminal 

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charge, I think is a Ryan. 
Most companies would tell me 

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anything. 
We saw with your mom, you know, 

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where he was attacked on the 
China stuff, anything where 

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Republicans and Democrats have 
To say he's terrible. 

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That's, that's the thing you're 
going to get God. 

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I don't know if you bring those 
constituencies together. 

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Like, I think it's great. 
That Republicans and Democrats 

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can agree. 
That genocide has bad eyes and 

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she tripped over that line. 
I'm trying to imagine a scenario

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in which Joe Rogan started 
talking about the uyghurs. 

239
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He would just be very off-brand 
for him. 

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But you know if you were out 
there to say like you know, 

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caring about the uyghurs 
genocide is below my line, he'd 

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probably get a Talking to. 
I don't think, I don't think 

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your mom canceled. 
Yeah, I don't know. 

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Yeah, that's not looking. 
No, I think it would be like, 

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weighing in on something like 
the depth charge Floyd Wright in

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a way that people thought yes, 
like wildly her. 

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If exactly. 
Yeah. 

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Right. 
That's, that's a good one. 

249
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Yes. 
If at the height of the George 

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Floyd protest, he was like, you 
know, guy got it coming or 

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anything, even close to that. 
Then I think you would be in a 

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position or Spotify would be in 
a position where they were, 

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like, that's something we don't 
want to be, you know, assigning 

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her name to at all which again. 
I mean, that's not really free 

255
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speech. 
So there's obviously a 

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squishiness to their statement 
that they're even trying to 

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stand behind even if it's 
irrelevant and we saw this 

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00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,500
issue, come up with Twitter when
Trump was still on Twitter. 

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You know, they had all sorts of 
reasons why they said it was 

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totally fine to have them on. 
And then it wasn't until after 

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you know many, many, many people
violently attacked Congress that

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they were like, okay, well 
actually actually think maybe 

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not anymore. 
I mean, so I mean at the high 

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levels, I doubt, Neil Young as 
making all that much from spot. 

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If I these rights, but I'm 
trying to think like, yeah, 

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Katie you brought it, Beyonce 
Taylor Swift. 

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I think, Taylor for a time has 
pulled her music from Spotify. 

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00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:42,700
Right. 
I wish you had a whole huge 

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00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:45,700
thing but now she's like all in 
there's been a right now. 

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That benefits you a lot Eric? 
Yeah I'm a top one percent I 

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think yeah I'm making my way 
through read. 

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It's taken me months but you 
know as I like this in a little 

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bit and be like I have to 
remember the song and then I Get

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00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:06,500
caught. 
We're the the tellers version. 

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It was version, Taylor's Rich. 
Oh yeah, I know, at least which 

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00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,500
version to listen to. 
Yeah, I'm trying to think who 

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00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:15,700
would take for me if they got 
pulled, it would be more, just 

278
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:20,100
like individual songs, you know?
Like if I couldn't listen to, I 

279
00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,000
don't know. 
C&C Music, Factory everybody 

280
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,100
dance now, right? 
If all of the Consortium of your

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00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:28,500
favorite artists took only, 
they're like top two hits off. 

282
00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:30,600
Yeah, it has to be like deep 
cuts only. 

283
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:33,000
I couldn't do it. 
It oh well soon, see Music 

284
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,100
Factory deep Cuts. 
I don't think they had any. 

285
00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:39,700
Yeah, I would I can't think of a
second song by them but yes, I 

286
00:14:39,708 --> 00:14:42,800
don't, I don't even think there 
is somebody who have paid all 

287
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,600
their music. 
I'm actually an apple music 

288
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,200
person stupidly, so I'm not even
really relevant to this 

289
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,900
discussion. 
When I need to dust off my CDs, 

290
00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:53,400
which I'm looking at my 
kajillion CD. 

291
00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:57,800
I actually this this isn't. 
There's no segue here. 

292
00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,200
It's just something actually 
wanted to bring it to you 

293
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:00,000
specifically. 
Katie. 

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00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,900
There is a Spotify. 
I have been obsessed with over 

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00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:07,400
the last week, it's called the 
60 songs that explain the 90s, 

296
00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:10,800
and it's this music critic who 
works for the ringer who goes 

297
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,800
song by song and explains why 
each song like it was emblematic

298
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,200
of the ninth. 
When was the last song he chose 

299
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:19,700
I'm behind. 
I just found out about this 

300
00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:24,300
thing like sugar but what was 
the last episode you listen to 

301
00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:27,000
what was the song? 
I listen to A Tribe Called 

302
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,900
Quest. 
Absolutely 100%. 100% that was 

303
00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:34,500
like yeah suddenly Hip-hop is 
okay for everyone, right? 

304
00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:37,900
We can all like it and it's good
and it's happy. 

305
00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:40,400
It was so happy, it was like, it
was right. 

306
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,300
But it's also stupid and kind of
profane. 

307
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:46,900
Best episodes have been for rap,
took a turn. 

308
00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:48,200
Anyway. 
All right. 

309
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,000
Funs over? 
Yeah, sorry I think this is 

310
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,500
essential listening, but yeah, 
sure. 

311
00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:59,100
They want to make a point on I 
know I've talked about. 

312
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,300
So I mean I'm Sub-sect. 
So I care and I just thought 

313
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:08,700
that the statement they put out 
was a little was just sort of 

314
00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:11,700
naive to the whole debate 
around. 

315
00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:16,100
Moderation on social media 
platforms that's been happening.

316
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,100
They like they didn't like to 
me, the key distinction is what 

317
00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:22,300
you allow on your platform 
versus what you're Distributing.

318
00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:23,800
Right? 
What your so what drives your 

319
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,200
business, right? 
What that, that matters but I'm 

320
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,700
saying in terms of ethically, 
ethically, like there's a It's 

321
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:34,400
between hosting something and 
pumping, something out to a 

322
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,600
bunch of people. 
And right now, sub stack just 

323
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,700
relies on their Publishers, 
people like me to build an 

324
00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:43,800
audience. 
And so, if they host bad stuff, 

325
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:45,400
it doesn't bother me that much, 
right? 

326
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,100
Because it's like those people 
had that audience, they probably

327
00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:51,300
have it on some other on a 
WordPress site, it doesn't 

328
00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:54,000
matter that much. 
That it's unsub stack, but if 

329
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,900
sub stack ever succeeds it 
building distribution, actually 

330
00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:01,500
building audience, then the 
position will matter and right. 

331
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,400
They they just failed. 
Basically. 

332
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,099
It building distribution, right?
They launched a reader app. 

333
00:17:07,099 --> 00:17:10,099
If you're a writer on 
subsequent, they show you 

334
00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:12,700
metrics. 
The try to emphasize the extent 

335
00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:15,000
to which they're helping to 
build your audience, but they're

336
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,200
not, everybody knows a not 
really building audience right 

337
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,300
now. 
So there's sort of a okay? 

338
00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:21,800
Because we fail to building 
audience, no one's really going 

339
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:23,099
to complain that we're hosting 
people. 

340
00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:26,800
I mean, people are complaining, 
but it's not as a sort of 

341
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,900
punishing critique. 
But obviously if it becomes the 

342
00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:33,300
case that they're driving a 
huge, Audience to anti-vaxxers 

343
00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:36,400
in are responsible for those 
that that was the critique of 

344
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,200
Facebook. 
That Facebook is finally started

345
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,900
to recognize then it becomes 
more of an issue. 

346
00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:43,700
And so I just feel like that 
they put out such an 

347
00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:48,400
unsophisticated statement was 
really annoying because it's 

348
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,000
like this has been, well, 
discussed. 

349
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,200
There are lots of like experts 
on it and to just be like, oh 

350
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,800
no, we love Free Speech, just 
makes him seem sort of dumb. 

351
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,200
I mean, I like the people over 
there, but I'm like, come on. 

352
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,300
It's like if your whole point. 
The were a nuanced platform that

353
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,800
hosts sophisticated debate, your
own statement about it should 

354
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,200
like indicate a level of 
sophistication. 

355
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,400
I agree. 
But I think Jerry from 

356
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,400
succession. 
Probably had a lot of hand in 

357
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,900
that that it's just pure cynical
right? 

358
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:20,000
That it's that it's like, okay. 
People like I mean, that's all 

359
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,800
we, that's I guess what I'm 
trying to say, people who are 

360
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,700
not following this closely like 
how Free Speech sounds. 

361
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,100
So if you make your point Free 
Speech, a certain segment of 

362
00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:32,100
people will be like great but 
like that's Not a really 

363
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:36,600
sophisticated position. 
And so either, this is extremely

364
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,500
cynical in that they don't want 
actually weigh in to the sort of

365
00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:45,000
thorny actual smart discussion. 
And of course, they don't want 

366
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,300
to this, that sucks. 
They don't want to be involved 

367
00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:51,000
in, I mean, old into a debate in
this paragraph would make your 

368
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,300
blood boil. 
They're like, in a pernicious 

369
00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:56,700
cycle, these Dynamics in turn. 
Give each group license to 

370
00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:57,600
point. 
They're just sort of. 

371
00:18:57,700 --> 00:18:59,100
He's saying how those thoughts 
today. 

372
00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:03,900
Yeah, they're both sides. 
Here, it's the It's like, I'm 

373
00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:06,100
just like, good bad. 
What's the difference? 

374
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:08,500
You know, it's just like classic
like, oh my God. 

375
00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:11,700
Just like total both sides 
doing. 

376
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,100
It's just like the dumbest sort 
of shits. 

377
00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:15,600
Why don't you just have a 
mandatory? 

378
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,800
Why don't they just have 
mandatory vaccinations for sub 

379
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,200
stack? 
That would be so funny like, 

380
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,500
yeah, this is ended there. 
Just like we have 100% 

381
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:28,100
vaccination everyone that rights
results so just be a good troll,

382
00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:31,400
you know, it just like totally 
out of nowhere. 

383
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,400
We're gonna go right in the oven
on, you know, mandatory Evac 

384
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:35,900
Splat forms. 
Be my guest. 

385
00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:38,700
You know do stuff. 
I oh maybe they're vax. 

386
00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:42,000
Maybe they're not. 
You know she drivers beware I 

387
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,200
don't want to get involved in 
this at all. 

388
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,500
This sucks for them isn't how 
experienced an unsub stack. 

389
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,700
Yes. 
Yes I'll be, I mean, he's 

390
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:49,800
terrible. 
Yeah. 

391
00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:51,900
He's certainly the extreme of 
that. 

392
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:55,500
I'm sure they'd rather him not 
be on there but you know it's 

393
00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:59,000
just not like you said the 
numbers are very large audience.

394
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,300
I mean, people people say that 
he makes like Dollars a year, I 

395
00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:04,500
think I saw. 
I'm not that he's he's kicked 

396
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:06,200
off Twitter, right? 
I think so. 

397
00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:08,600
I think his stick, that's what I
haven't really kept up with 

398
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,800
who's been banned from drought 
in the New York Times, alumni 

399
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,100
group. 
I mean, this is kitchen that 

400
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:20,900
what I'm This that's slack. 
Yeah this fits into I mean the 

401
00:20:20,900 --> 00:20:24,200
fact that Twitter is basically 
doing distribution for sub 

402
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,700
stack, make sub Stacks editorial
challenge much easier because 

403
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,300
the people driving audience to 
sub-sect are these social media 

404
00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:34,800
companies which have had to 
think about this for a while and

405
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,600
have stricter rules, whereas sub
stack, which is just a like 

406
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,600
basically a hosting platform and
sort of a sort of tool for 

407
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,200
writers can sort. 
Of play naive for the time being

408
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,800
but obviously, if they ever 
succeed in building the business

409
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,800
they aspire to then they're 
going to have to grow up and 

410
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,600
have a more sophisticated point 
of view. 

411
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,400
What would your ideal statement 
be from them, though? 

412
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,900
Other than, like, not as not as 
simple, my ideal statement would

413
00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:06,500
be, you know, inherently, we 
have to draw lines and we think 

414
00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:09,700
we should have a pretty 
permissive attitude towards 

415
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,300
hosting people. 
Personally, we find anti-vaccine

416
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,300
At abhorrent. 
And we understand that as we 

417
00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:20,300
grow, we're going to try and 
direct people to sub Stacks that

418
00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:24,400
we think are interesting on a 
whole range of subjective 

419
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,400
factors like their ability to 
build audience in our own 

420
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,500
sensibility and brand. 
And we certainly don't want to 

421
00:21:30,508 --> 00:21:33,600
drive audience to things that we
think are morally reprehensible 

422
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,800
like anti-vaccine statement. 
So while we're happy to let a 

423
00:21:36,808 --> 00:21:41,100
range of debate, we believe in 
free debate, we don't intend to 

424
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:45,400
drive audience, right to the 
These people Beyond Today to 

425
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,000
thinking attract platform, that 
drives audience less. 

426
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,000
So is one that is an economic 
vehicle for just like draw a 

427
00:21:51,008 --> 00:21:54,400
strong distinction between the 
different types of that, 

428
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:58,600
understand that people are have 
different opinions about when 

429
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,600
you're driving attention versus 
when you're just hosting and 

430
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,400
make your position clear on both
fronts. 

431
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:10,200
I mean, I was surprised that 
Casey noon on platformer sort of

432
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:15,700
applauded sub stack for having a
very Here position, which is 

433
00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:21,000
like, we like free speech. 
I thought their position was 

434
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,700
simplistic. 
I also just don't think Clarity 

435
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:27,600
is the number one value. 
I think not promoting and 

436
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,200
distribute not drawing new 
attention to anti-vaxxer 

437
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,000
terrible speech. 
The outcomes matter more than 

438
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,800
sort of the tightness and 
Clarity of the the position I 

439
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,300
got to say, the only thing 
that's drawn my attention to the

440
00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:44,200
anti-vaccine people on sub, 
stack have been people learning 

441
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,700
about the anti-vaccine total 
unsub's. 

442
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:48,100
I mean that I've never would 
have even known that. 

443
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:51,200
Alex Barron sand has a sub stack
or the, you know, the fact that 

444
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,400
there are two point five million
dollars worth of value, being 

445
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,300
created from from these writers.
So yeah, I don't know D 

446
00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:59,300
platform, those people, they 
drove my attention. 

447
00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:02,700
I mean, the other boy people 
made about sub stack is just, 

448
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:06,300
you know, it's sort of so 
people's opinions grow by being 

449
00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:10,300
indirect like confrontation with
each other, but subsets not 

450
00:23:10,300 --> 00:23:13,800
doing anything to like surface 
rebuttals to these anti. 

451
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,800
X sub Stacks to those people. 
It's not like, oh, you're 

452
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,600
getting anti-vaxxer sub stack. 
Here's like the other side of it

453
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,900
and why you should listen to 
that name though. 

454
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,800
I mean, like that, that was like
the suggestion for Facebook for 

455
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,600
a while to be like, you may be 
interested in another side of 

456
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,000
the statement. 
It's like, come on the people 

457
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,400
that are DieHard anti-vaxxers or
any of the misinformation on 

458
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,200
Facebook. 
They're not going to be swayed 

459
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,400
because there was a little like 
suggestion box saying like you 

460
00:23:39,408 --> 00:23:41,700
might want to read Vox for 
another perspective. 

461
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,100
I really think that's what You 
want there at the bottom? 

462
00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:47,900
Alex Berenson, someone who just 
got through, you know, hearing 

463
00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:51,600
that like mRNA is gene therapy 
and, you know, you're going to 

464
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,900
die of cancer in the next six to
eight weeks being like, you 

465
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:57,000
know, Eric Topol from the 
Scripps Institute, has a 

466
00:23:57,008 --> 00:24:01,000
different view on this. 
There are core product failures 

467
00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:02,900
at the heart of a lot of this, 
right? 

468
00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:06,700
Like some crazy guy comes up to 
you on the street and like 

469
00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:10,300
starts ranting about ants, 
you've acts and you like, see 

470
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:12,200
they're sort of hiss, they're 
troubled. 

471
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,600
They look they're a lot of 
Things off the internet that you

472
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,600
can receive about someone to 
understand them and assess them 

473
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,300
that the internet obscures, in 
that these platforms, help 

474
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:26,100
people hide. 
And by not like, if you're 

475
00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:29,800
experiencing that, no one sort 
of take seriously in the 

476
00:24:29,808 --> 00:24:33,400
mainstream sort of medical 
authorities or anything. 

477
00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:37,000
The failure of social media 
platforms, to let people really 

478
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,600
understand this person and have 
any sort of history on them and 

479
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,500
just get this sort of snapshot 
window into them. 

480
00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:47,300
I do think it's their design 
choices about how social media 

481
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:52,100
platforms are built and sort of 
the sort of total abandonment of

482
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:57,500
any sort of credentialism or 
yeah, I guess I mean like at the

483
00:24:57,500 --> 00:25:00,600
earliest days of the fake news 
debate. 

484
00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:03,000
Remember the issue wasn't so 
much that there was an accurate 

485
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,800
information but that it was 
being presented as coming from 

486
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,800
an authoritative Source, right? 
Member like the pope endorse 

487
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,400
Trump was written on some site. 
That was like the the Colorado 

488
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,800
registry. 
Or something like that and and 

489
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,000
you know the argument there 
which is what I'm more buys like

490
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,600
oh there could be well-meaning 
people that for some reason 

491
00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:25,900
think that you total asset on 
this site is is legitimate here.

492
00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:28,500
And if that's the only news they
read that day, then they could 

493
00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:30,500
think that. 
You just, you know what you're 

494
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:32,500
getting with sub stack. 
If you're if you're signing up 

495
00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:36,000
to read, sometimes I agree with 
that statement so yeah, I don't 

496
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,700
know, I don't know. 
Do you want to join them over to

497
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:41,400
the markets? 
You agree that this sort of 

498
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,800
distribution versus hosting? 
Yeah. 

499
00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:46,200
Does think I should get? 
Yeah, I think it's a slightly 

500
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,900
different debate. 
I think when it becomes to 

501
00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:52,500
distribution substract has more 
responsibility than simply 

502
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:55,700
being, you know, an economic 
platform or, or, you know, like 

503
00:25:55,700 --> 00:25:58,000
basically a payment platform and
web hosting service. 

504
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,600
Well, stripe is a payment, a 
facilitator of using Straight. 

505
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,300
You know, there? 
So that's interesting though, 

506
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:04,700
right? 
I mean, like, that gets to like 

507
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:07,300
the real, like the, you know, 
the backbone of the internet 

508
00:26:07,300 --> 00:26:09,900
when people like that start 
making distinctions and I know 

509
00:26:09,900 --> 00:26:12,600
Christ and that would be, that 
would be pretty bad, right? 

510
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,100
I do think it's like a Scale, 
you want the infrastructure 

511
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:19,400
layer to be the least 
restrictive in the distribution 

512
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,300
layer to be the most that makes 
sense that's like TV shows in 

513
00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:24,600
the past. 
You know you choose your brand, 

514
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,900
you play TV, you decide what's 
on the show? 

515
00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:28,100
That makes sense to me. 
Right? 

516
00:26:28,100 --> 00:26:32,900
Look, I'm on the more firm side 
of just not believing that any 

517
00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:35,700
of these people should be pulled
down under under almost any 

518
00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:37,400
really? 
That's yeah, yeah. 

519
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,100
I might just like this people 
pretend it's so hard to say 

520
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,100
what's bad and what's good? 
It's like you read this fucking 

521
00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:45,000
terrible thing. 
You talk to a bunch of X. 

522
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:50,200
I understand that there was an 
Impulse to like sensor the lab 

523
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,700
leak Theory which I believe I 
was very suspicious of the 

524
00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:57,400
origins of the coronavirus. 
I was listening to Steve 

525
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,600
bannon's podcast but I was able 
to seek it out and find it on 

526
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,000
whatever like platform it was on
because you're still allowed to 

527
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,100
have like, meta conversations 
about like, oh, there are people

528
00:27:07,100 --> 00:27:08,300
who believe that, you know what 
I mean? 

529
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:11,500
It's so that. 
So the interesting thing is that

530
00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:15,700
for broadcasters TV, L, there 
are certain kinds of things, 

531
00:27:15,700 --> 00:27:19,300
they just can't put out to the 
public because they don't hit a 

532
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:23,900
standard. 
So platforms are relatively new 

533
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,800
in the history of like news 
distribution information, 

534
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,800
distribution, do you think that 
there should be a standard 

535
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,400
imposed on platforms? 
Akin to a broadcast standard. 

536
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,100
And if not why, why not? 
Just because it's user-generated

537
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:41,300
for things like, trending topics
distribution, right? 

538
00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:45,500
For things were like, if you're 
on the Book profile very low 

539
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:47,200
standard. 
But if it's being pumped into 

540
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,600
the feed and being, you know, 
given virality, then I think 

541
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,000
there should be a more similar 
to a broadcast standard. 

542
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:56,400
And the other thing is, if you 
look at Australia, they did just

543
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,500
post laws about distribution of 
certain kinds of harmful 

544
00:28:00,500 --> 00:28:03,600
information. 
And it means that Publishers in,

545
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:07,100
not just the platforms, but 
Publishers in Australia. 

546
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:11,500
So if you're a newspaper and you
have a comment section and, you 

547
00:28:11,500 --> 00:28:15,100
know, inappropriate under this 
law, On 10 is post in the 

548
00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:17,700
comment section. 
Well, the newspaper could have a

549
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:20,600
legal issue. 
And so I think that there are 

550
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,000
going to be countries that take 
a firmer hand in terms of, you 

551
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,700
know, the distribution of 
content that they think that's 

552
00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:30,800
harmful to society. 
So I mean it's hard for me to 

553
00:28:30,808 --> 00:28:33,900
imagine that Australia goes 
there but the EU doesn't go 

554
00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:36,200
there. 
And then eventually, I mean 

555
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,900
other countries will have to 
consider it and they'll be a big

556
00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:41,600
dividing line between the 
countries that do in countries 

557
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,700
that don't seem like they're. 
I want free debate. 

558
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:45,600
On the internet. 
Like I don't want to be in a 

559
00:28:45,608 --> 00:28:49,000
case where you can't even make 
an argument and publish it 

560
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,400
somewhere. 
It's just, I want people who are

561
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,800
just like, so I want, you know, 
if you're really seeking 

562
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,500
something out, you're arguing 
something, there are more ways 

563
00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:59,000
to share, you know, you can text
people things, you can have 

564
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,000
group there, more ways to share 
your ideas, now across the world

565
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,200
than ever before. 
I just don't think you have the 

566
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,700
right, just because an idea is 
like catchy and people reading 

567
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:11,700
it sort of believe it, without 
any other information to get it 

568
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,800
distributed, widely beyond your 
In audience. 

569
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,600
I guess it's not really about a 
matter of right or not. 

570
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,300
Right? 
I mean obviously we're not even 

571
00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:24,200
talking constitutionally, right?
It's just like human law or 

572
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,700
civilized, you know, right 
society that people should say 

573
00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:32,000
things that you disagree with 
and have harmful effects because

574
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,500
they are, you know, getting wide
distribution for it. 

575
00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:37,900
I, I guess it's just hard for me
to get past the like, what is 

576
00:29:37,900 --> 00:29:39,800
the n stand? 
What did people ultimately want?

577
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,400
Because what they're mad about 
is that there's a lot of 

578
00:29:41,408 --> 00:29:43,700
anti-vaxxers, right? 
That there's a lot of people. 

579
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,000
Out there have the decided one 
will reason or another, they 

580
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,200
don't want to get this vaccine 
and that is prolonged. 

581
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,200
The suffering. 
That we have all been 

582
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,200
experiencing for the last couple
of years. 

583
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,000
I don't think it's going to make
a huge difference. 

584
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,700
If sub stack, kicked off the 
anti-vaxxers of Joe Rogan was D.

585
00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:00,100
Platformed in terms of the 
number of people. 

586
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:05,200
I think in the countries where 
they do have stricter laws about

587
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,900
distribution, there are still 
huge swaths of people that are 

588
00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:10,600
protesting locked down there. 
Anti-vaxxers that are all these 

589
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,100
things. 
What I'm about to say, should be

590
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:16,000
the refrain of every 
Conversation like this Fox is 

591
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,900
still worse, that's a problem, 
right? 

592
00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:22,400
As long as Fox is pumping out 
with an editorial agenda stuff. 

593
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,100
That's as bad or worse than 
anything. 

594
00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:26,600
You're going to find that were 
complaining about on the 

595
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,400
Internet. 
It's sort of a dumb argument 

596
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,700
because you have this super 
terrible broadcaster. 

597
00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:37,000
That's just, you know, 
intentionally delivering the 

598
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,600
message to, you know, the 
Republican Party base and Sprite

599
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,900
and they're theoretically 
regulated by, you know, The 

600
00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:46,400
broadcast standards and it's 
still getting out there, right? 

601
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,600
Same way, and I'm not calling 
for the government, really, to, 

602
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,500
like, crack down more. 
I'm just saying, in sort of the 

603
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,300
elite discourse, sort of what 
what we should ask for in sort 

604
00:30:56,300 --> 00:30:59,600
of these policy positions. 
And how well-intentioned people 

605
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,600
should think about sort of 
correctly moderating? 

606
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,600
Yeah, yeah, the market you want 
to go to the market? 

607
00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:13,500
Let's go to the market what the 
song is called unfun. 

608
00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:18,700
Mi glad ya Bitcoin unhappy is it
down right now? 

609
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,700
I mean it's down overall but I 
don't know today whether it's 

610
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:23,400
our who cares? 
It's going to come out a couple 

611
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,900
days from now. 
I mean Robin Hood is what it's 

612
00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:29,000
ten. 
Ten point five billion market 

613
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,500
cap right now II keep taking a 
Victory lap because rivi and 

614
00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:35,200
that electric car company. 
I called a Horseman of the 

615
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,200
Apocalypse is way below its IPO 
price. 

616
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,900
It's now only worth a 
self-driven horse thief billion 

617
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:44,200
dollars as like no Revenue 
basically, it's worth He billion

618
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,800
dollars. 
So to me, plenty of air, I mean 

619
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,100
test a respek, right? 
No. 

620
00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:53,100
I think it was a traditional IPO
Tesla is still an eight hundred 

621
00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:55,600
billion dollars. 
I'm pulling it up, eight hundred

622
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,800
thirty, five billion dollar 
company and what Ford is 

623
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,000
probably what a tenth of that. 
What is it? 

624
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,700
Yeah, for it is is 77 billion 
dollar company. 

625
00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:10,400
So I do think there is a plenty 
of room to come out, but we saw 

626
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,600
lots of great companies like 
snowflake. 

627
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,000
You know, a lot of sad Zoom is 
way down. 

628
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,200
I think, you know, companies 
that just had high Revenue 

629
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:25,300
multiples, you know, corrected 
to sort of like pre-pandemic 

630
00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:28,100
levels, right? 
Netflix is down below. 

631
00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:30,700
Its pre-pandemic level. 
Then they were one of the 

632
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:32,400
winners and the first year or 
two. 

633
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,700
So, yeah, it feels like we've 
kind of reset everything back to

634
00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:37,800
2020. 
I mean, I, we need a bear 

635
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,800
Market. 
I mean, they're, I mean, they're

636
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,100
clearly companies that are 
ridiculous, right? 

637
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:44,600
And because there's, A set of 
companies. 

638
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,400
I think a lot of the EV company.
I mean, I'm glad electric 

639
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,700
vehicles exist, but the 
multiples that they're trading 

640
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:53,800
at the absurdity of some, I 
mean, I would say on-demand sort

641
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,700
of the go Puffs, the world. 
They have the ability of like, 

642
00:32:56,700 --> 00:33:00,000
absurd businesses to do. 
So, well has meant that even the

643
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,900
sort of the normal software 
businesses then, got insane 

644
00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:06,100
multiples. 
And so now we've seen 

645
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:08,700
everything. 
Correct, but we have, we're not 

646
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:11,500
seeing like the truly ludicrous 
business. 

647
00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:13,700
We haven't seen like bankruptcy 
attorney. 

648
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:18,600
Thing I don't and I'll say that,
I just want to the SNP, it's 

649
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,900
still up more than 15 percent 
from a year ago, right? 

650
00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:25,200
So even though it's come down a 
lot, like, overall, the market 

651
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,600
is up you on this year, just 
over the last 28 days. 

652
00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:32,800
It's down a lot. 
It's down like nine percent. 

653
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,500
But if you look at the chart for
a year it's not like we're in. 

654
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:39,700
It's not like we are in huge 
trouble. 

655
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,800
I say that. 
Like we're going to go to a bear

656
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,700
Market. 
Yeah well yeah, I mean. 

657
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,400
It's really do you think we 
recovered? 

658
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,800
You think this is just a teaser 
and we're going to have real 

659
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,200
real paint so I don't two 
things. 

660
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,600
I don't make predictions that 
you like as reporters we're just

661
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,300
reporters are generally about it
predictions and we're pretty 

662
00:33:57,300 --> 00:33:59,400
much all those wrongs. 
I don't like to do that. 

663
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,600
And the other thing is they 
think that the market and the 

664
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,600
real economy are two different 
things. 

665
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,400
And so I'm I feel like the 
markets kind of an indicator of 

666
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,500
what like kind of a subset of 
the country. 

667
00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:18,000
Is doing, you know, it's like, 
they're all sorts of forces that

668
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,900
have kind of made that sharp 
decoupling happen, right? 

669
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:25,199
So, like high-speed trading, 
Etc, you know, all sorts of 

670
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:29,600
things but I think that if you 
look at the economy, that is 

671
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,600
something that people might want
to pay more attention to if 

672
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,199
they're trying to figure out 
whether or not we're going to go

673
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,100
into a recession and I'm going 
to hitters like unemployment 

674
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:41,000
number of people leaving the 
workforce like consumer, you 

675
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,400
know, consumer activity and that
is I think Start is what 

676
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,199
starting to get wobbly in a way 
that I find possibly more 

677
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,900
interesting, but that's just 
what the other employment rate 

678
00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:54,800
is low. 
I watched Jerome, Powell the Fed

679
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,400
chair. 
Give his sort of talk on what 

680
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,600
they plan to do. 
It's super funny to listen to 

681
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,400
not, you know, not being sort of
a Fed reporter. 

682
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,900
You know, they speak in their 
own sort of little Arcane 

683
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,200
language and they don't want to 
give anything away but I mean, 

684
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,900
basically it was very clear that
He called like the stock market 

685
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:16,600
like a market, you know what I 
mean? 

686
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,700
It was very clear that they're 
not orienting around the stock 

687
00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:23,800
market, that fundamentally the 
mandates are unemployment and 

688
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,600
inflation. 
And they only really care about 

689
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,500
the stock market to the degree 
to, which it would derail, you 

690
00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:32,600
know, cause people, you know, 
the stock market plunging could 

691
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,800
cause people to lose their jobs 
and I think that's right. 

692
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,900
It would have been funnier if he
was just like, fuck the stock 

693
00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:39,800
market, but but yeah, there is a
degree. 

694
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,700
Like you're saying that the 
stock market is not the economy.

695
00:35:43,700 --> 00:35:48,600
And it's healthy for, I mean, 
you talk to most investors Savvy

696
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,700
ones and they think we needed a 
correction that the valuations 

697
00:35:52,700 --> 00:35:57,100
even in great companies, where a
little were unsustainable, but 

698
00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:59,400
where it goes from here. 
Yeah, I think we're all set on 

699
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,100
time when interest rates are so 
low that any investment, no 

700
00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:06,500
matter how risky seems totally 
fine, especially if you're using

701
00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:08,400
borrowed money to do it, it's 
just everything. 

702
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,100
Kind of felt free and easy, and 
if inflation Rises and interest 

703
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:14,800
rates, rise, Won't be the case 
anymore. 

704
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:19,600
So I think that again like I'm 
not a predictor but I am less 

705
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,200
concerned about what's happening
in the stock market. 

706
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,700
And I'm more interested in kind 
of what happens with interest 

707
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:27,200
rates. 
And then there's all this, like,

708
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,000
weird stuff happening with 
Supply chains that it's sort of,

709
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,400
it's sort of interesting, but 
people not being able to get 

710
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,600
stuff people, nothing to move 
things around the world. 

711
00:36:35,607 --> 00:36:39,200
I have no idea how that will 
affect the economy, but it is 

712
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,300
fairly new. 
I mean, for decades, we ran on 

713
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:43,500
this weird just-in-time 
Manufacturing. 

714
00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:47,100
Fracturing economy for almost 
every product that suddenly we 

715
00:36:47,100 --> 00:36:51,100
can't and that's going to create
cost and companies to write 

716
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,800
right? 
Well, there's so many pieces 

717
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,300
that are like to some degree, a 
bad supply chain. 

718
00:36:57,300 --> 00:37:00,500
Problem could be seen as 
reassuring, because it means 

719
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:04,400
fundamental and flick that sort 
of the inflationary forces are 

720
00:37:04,408 --> 00:37:07,200
the FED aren't the real problem,
but it's actually supply chain 

721
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,700
problem. 
So there's a constant sort of 

722
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,500
what's good is bad and bad is 
good, right? 

723
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:16,300
So that's why, you know, people 
like David Sachs who I saw 

724
00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:18,900
tweeted out and I don't follow 
him but I said this came to me a

725
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:21,900
different way that like, you 
know, inflation was the result 

726
00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:24,800
of government, you know, 
stimulus checks that were given 

727
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,500
out to families that that is 
directly the cause of inflation.

728
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,600
And we did this to ourselves I 
think was his point there, which

729
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,500
of course, I mean, there is a 
possibility. 

730
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,900
Well sure. 
I mean, look, I have not read a 

731
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:39,400
single good but one that I felt 
confident about explanation that

732
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,800
holistically explained 
inflation. 

733
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,100
I think the I think the checks 
the people were great. 

734
00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:47,200
I mean I Believe in them. 
But yeah, I mean putting 

735
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,300
government money behind a 
roaring economy can cause 

736
00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:54,600
inflation. 
I mean, yeah, I think we've done

737
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,700
that before. 
We put a lot of government money

738
00:37:56,700 --> 00:38:01,100
behind, like all of Wall Street,
right order to recover faster, 

739
00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:06,000
the try this, and it didn't, it 
didn't lead to Runaway inflation

740
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,400
one and it also did not lead to 
like any Equitable outcomes 

741
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,000
whatsoever. 
So, yeah, that's like, well, 

742
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,200
let's take the money and see 
what happens. 

743
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:13,500
We put in the hands of the 
American people. 

744
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,700
Everybody goes out and buys a 
used car. 

745
00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:17,700
Awesome. 
Like we have now have a used car

746
00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:19,900
shortage and inflation in the 
used car market. 

747
00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:23,500
But you know, people is there's 
not going to be a perfect 

748
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:26,900
solution, but I do think it was 
possibly worth trying the 

749
00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:29,900
alternative rather than putting 
the million dollars behind 10 

750
00:38:29,900 --> 00:38:32,200
rodeo bull put a good jillion 
dollars behind like, just some 

751
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,200
people, well, I think that the 
challenge we face right now, 

752
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,100
right there in The Savvy, 
investing world, the line is 

753
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:41,700
always, you know, buy the rumor 
sell the news right. 

754
00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:44,500
When you think something's going
to happen, you make the trade 

755
00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:47,500
and then when they actually 
announced it, send the market 

756
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:50,700
the other way, when Regular Joe 
consumer is reacting, right? 

757
00:38:50,700 --> 00:38:55,200
So, right now, people sort of 
the inverse people are selling 

758
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:59,000
shares ahead of fed raising 
interest rates when the FED 

759
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,200
raises interest rates. 
Will the markets actually, you 

760
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,700
know, how will the markets react
will it get worse or if they 

761
00:39:04,700 --> 00:39:07,800
already priced in those 
decisions, right? 

762
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,300
That sort of the unknowable 
thing. 

763
00:39:10,700 --> 00:39:14,900
What's your sense by the way? 
On the impact of The crash in 

764
00:39:14,900 --> 00:39:18,700
the crypto Market on. 
I mean, water, a cup crypto 

765
00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:21,400
Market, what at its peak with 
something like three trillion 

766
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,400
dollars and now mean it's like, 
it's 1.5. 

767
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,500
So Paul Krugman just did a 
column and I like Paul Krugman, 

768
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:29,100
I don't know. 
Yeah. 

769
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:31,400
I really enjoy his writing and, 
you know, he was sort of 

770
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,200
comparing it to like a past 
crisis was a credit default 

771
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,600
swaps, or I forget what, and it 
was just like a sort of a dumb 

772
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,600
call him that he acknowledged in
some ways, just because the 

773
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,800
Bitcoin Market is just not large
enough to Cabbage side some sort

774
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,600
of shock. 
Where's the only reason that, I 

775
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,000
actually think there's some 
Merit to the crashing of the 

776
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,900
crypto, you know, like coin 
values. 

777
00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:52,700
And any of those things is going
to have impact is. 

778
00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:55,400
I think they're, I understand 
that. 

779
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,100
Like it's a small number of 
people that control a huge 

780
00:39:58,100 --> 00:40:01,800
percentage of all of the 
existing, you know, coins and 

781
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,800
ftes or anything and that space.
But anecdotally talking to a lot

782
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,200
of people in the ride-sharing, 
you know, the gig economy space.

783
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,600
There's a lot of people that put
their money into crypto I think 

784
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,800
for a time that was that was 
Suggested as a smart, hold and 

785
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,900
investment value. 
Sorry, hold a value or 

786
00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:20,600
investment. 
And, you know, with and I don't 

787
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,400
know specifically what coins 
they always put their money 

788
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:29,100
into, but there will be impact 
on regular folk, right. 

789
00:40:29,100 --> 00:40:31,500
And I mean some ways, the 
regular people are the ones who 

790
00:40:31,500 --> 00:40:35,100
eat it because they come in 
right later, but I just don't 

791
00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:36,800
think it's enough. 
It's not enough to go puff 

792
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,400
drivers talking to you would put
who put her like a bunch of her 

793
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,400
savings into some like Shiba Inu
NACA, right? 

794
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:44,900
Yeah, like that. 
A terrible idea, of course, I 

795
00:40:44,908 --> 00:40:46,700
didn't say that to her but like,
no. 

796
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:49,300
So don't worry. 
Knock off the shiba inu. 

797
00:40:49,300 --> 00:40:51,300
I think, raises a no, no, it 
wasn't. 

798
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:58,600
It was an on Sheba. 
It was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

799
00:40:58,900 --> 00:41:01,300
Which is like, that might be the
most volatile pump-and-dump of 

800
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:04,600
them all, you know, just it is a
little bit like all of the IPOs 

801
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,800
of the 90s where you had 
completely untested companies 

802
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,500
pumped up by Silicon Valley, 
money hitting the public markets

803
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,500
and then investors retail 
investors getting Completely 

804
00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:17,200
screwed by this. 
Even as like institutional 

805
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,300
investors were like, actually 
we're probably not going to buy 

806
00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:21,600
these things anymore, it isn't 
that one of the tenants of why 

807
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,300
web three or crypto door going 
to call? 

808
00:41:23,300 --> 00:41:25,400
It is good. 
Is because it like offers access

809
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,000
to you know unaccredited 
investors to put money into a 

810
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,000
potentially. 
It does in a universe created 

811
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,700
and controlled by a few rich 
people. 

812
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,700
Yeah. 
Right, I really you guys are 

813
00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:38,700
saying, but if the point is the 
stock market is not the economy.

814
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,800
Bitcoin is not anything. 
Like I just think. 

815
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,700
It's just like, we do. 
You still think that like the 

816
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:49,100
actions Financial actions of 
companies and real consumers, 

817
00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:51,800
probably is them. 
I mean, the two most important 

818
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,200
inputs in the real economy, 
right? 

819
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:54,900
That's it. 
I'm sure we are about to be 

820
00:41:54,900 --> 00:41:57,600
flooded with stories of people 
who lost everything. 

821
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,800
Sure, on first, the coins, cash 
is on there. 

822
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,100
Any parties, you know, being 
scammed through enough to use 

823
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:04,900
all of that stuff. 
And yeah, I guess yeah. 

824
00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:07,000
Like as a smart reader, we 
should remind ourselves that 

825
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,400
isn't necessarily the economy, 
but that is, I mean these are 

826
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,200
people's lives. 
I do think there's some 

827
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,900
Innovation innovation. 
In crypto, the speculation is 

828
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:21,400
fueling super smart people to 
try to invent a use case and so 

829
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,600
I don't think the government 
should stop people. 

830
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,500
I don't, I don't think the 
government should have stopped 

831
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:28,500
people. 
And so, then it's part of the 

832
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:30,000
free market. 
And that's right. 

833
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,000
Sort of buyer, beware, and 
they're sort of that fringy 

834
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,500
behavior. 
We saw like in the housing 

835
00:42:34,500 --> 00:42:38,000
market in 2007 and six as well, 
you know, so like every year, 

836
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,900
the real problem Market, the 
government back something up or 

837
00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:42,900
whatever. 
But like Mark is apperance 

838
00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:46,400
always And of the outer reaches 
of it, where it gets the most 

839
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:47,900
dangerous. 
That's almost where you see the 

840
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:50,000
most risky consumer investment 
Behavior. 

841
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:55,500
So like whether it was super 
speculative stocks, whether it 

842
00:42:55,500 --> 00:43:00,700
was insane, housing speculation,
and now, if it's crypto, that 

843
00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:04,400
will be this booms sort of 
defining asset class. 

844
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,500
But that doesn't mean that there
were no other contributing 

845
00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:11,000
factors to the room or that. 
The bust my Chicken Little case 

846
00:43:11,300 --> 00:43:14,900
is not. 
Cryptic it would just be Index 

847
00:43:14,900 --> 00:43:19,300
funds are driving a ton of money
blindly into stocks, like if 

848
00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:22,900
Tesla was to fall to Ford's 
valuation, it would lose more 

849
00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:25,800
than 700 billion dollars in 
market cap. 

850
00:43:26,100 --> 00:43:29,700
And it is a huge holding and 
most of the major index funds. 

851
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:34,400
So I think the much more risky 
scenario where the economy is 

852
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,400
impacted by the stock market is 
people lose face, faith and 

853
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,900
Tesla. 
Tesla is basically propped up 

854
00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:43,400
most of this back Market the 
hole. 

855
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,800
Sort of belief system around how
these companies are valued 

856
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,000
collapses. 
That has a major impact on index

857
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,100
funds that has a real impact on 
the economy. 

858
00:43:54,100 --> 00:43:58,200
And to me sort of the index 
funds support of Tesla. 

859
00:43:58,300 --> 00:44:01,700
Just proportional to the amount 
that retail wants to drive it up

860
00:44:01,700 --> 00:44:04,800
is much more worrying than the 
entire crypto Market at. 

861
00:44:04,808 --> 00:44:07,300
That's my point of view. 
Yeah, I guess I think see the 

862
00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:10,600
crypto Market is like kind of 
Fringe behavior and maybe my 

863
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,400
analogy. 
Maybe my comparisons are totally

864
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,100
wrong because like housing, And 
stocks were both things that 

865
00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:20,000
both institutional investors in 
large swaths, looked at invested

866
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,800
in and supported. 
And then later the highest risk 

867
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:28,200
retail investors. 
And then with crypto, you did 

868
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,300
not have like sort of broad by 
in. 

869
00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:34,100
It's truly, truly a kind of like
this fringy Fringe a thing. 

870
00:44:34,100 --> 00:44:36,800
Yeah, it's not foundational to 
the economy in the world real 

871
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,300
estate. 
Or now, you know, mutual funds 

872
00:44:39,300 --> 00:44:41,600
or index funds. 
I take it back and it's very 

873
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:43,100
Global. 
It's it wouldn't necessarily 

874
00:44:43,100 --> 00:44:46,300
have America specific my point 
with bringing it up is just 

875
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,900
that, you know, the egalitarian 
nature of crypto has taken in a 

876
00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:52,100
huge amount of people that 
otherwise would have been barred

877
00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:55,700
from extremely volatile stocks. 
And I'm just, you will see a lot

878
00:44:55,700 --> 00:44:58,200
more people losing their shirts 
than it would have happened, had

879
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:07,400
they not been. 
So I lost some Bitcoin so don't 

880
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,200
do that. 
My whole portfolio just has to 

881
00:45:11,207 --> 00:45:14,500
continue to be worth more than 
like, In dollars and I'm doing. 

882
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:16,200
Okay. 
Yeah, to be clear. 

883
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,000
I am very small percentage of my
assets and crypto. 

884
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:24,300
Most in index funds, I'm pretty 
stressed by the rising interest 

885
00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:26,300
rates, because I'm probably 
going to have to refinance 

886
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,900
actually think that in July a 
mortgage Bond marker are the 

887
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:31,600
most important thing to watch 
still. 

888
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,000
I'm sure a ton of people are on 
adjustable-rate mortgages to 

889
00:45:35,100 --> 00:45:37,400
that will at some point be 
kicking into an awful. 

890
00:45:37,700 --> 00:45:40,300
You know, an awful rate and the 
ability to refinance is 

891
00:45:40,300 --> 00:45:43,000
basically not there if the 
interest rates are higher. 

892
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,700
So, It's it's pretty heroin. 
Yeah. 

893
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,000
Yes, we'll do a whole episode. 
Just on how terrifying is to own

894
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,300
a home. 
It will just be Tom. 

895
00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:54,700
Yeah, I figure I could patch it 
and I can pack it. 

896
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,600
I'll patch on my mortgage broker
and you guys can see me cry live

897
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,000
on air as he tells me what my 
race. 

898
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,700
Can it be owning a home is 
supposed to be smart in a period

899
00:46:01,700 --> 00:46:03,500
of high inflation? 
I guess your issue is that 

900
00:46:03,500 --> 00:46:07,100
you're mostly financed. 
You are and if you only read 

901
00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:08,400
yeah. 
Yes. 

902
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,500
If you are, you know stuck into 
a 30-year fixed-rate if you're 

903
00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:13,400
like me, and you're going to 
have to refinance when 

904
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,200
Conversion goes. 
What's what decides? 

905
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,400
Whether you're a variable or 
fixed? 

906
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:20,500
Well, it's just a teaser rate. 
I mean, you can just buy into a 

907
00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:23,300
rate that's like, you know, 
first five years two and a half 

908
00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:25,600
percent, then it kicks up into 
like three at your shoes when 

909
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,300
you talk to the bank. 
Yeah. 

910
00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:29,500
Yeah. 
But you can you can get a fixed 

911
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:31,600
rate at the beginning. 
It's like a church or hi. 

912
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,400
Rick. 
It's there and you have to 

913
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,900
qualify for it. 
Usually have some sort of income

914
00:46:35,900 --> 00:46:37,800
qualification. 
Then you also need to be able to

915
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,600
put down so much on the house to
get a fixed rate and often times

916
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,900
with adjustable rate mortgages 
Has one of the reasons they at 

917
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:48,900
least used to entrap people is 
that you did not need as much 

918
00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:54,100
Financial Security to get one 
because you could make the 

919
00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:56,000
payments on the lower rate, 
right? 

920
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,700
But then when the rate change 
dramatically, those people are 

921
00:47:00,900 --> 00:47:04,300
really vulnerable, is the 
prospect of a downturn. 

922
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:07,900
Something that is being 
discussed with any seriousness 

923
00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:11,200
in the tech industry. 
And is it something that is 

924
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:12,600
having any kind of ripple 
effect? 

925
00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:16,200
So I've been talking To a lot of
investors Venture capitalists 

926
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,600
and some of the crossover 
people. 

927
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,400
I mean I think right now in 
Silicon Valley were still in the

928
00:47:22,300 --> 00:47:24,500
price adjustment period. 
It's not like Panic. 

929
00:47:24,500 --> 00:47:26,500
It's not like oh, I'm worried 
Mike. 

930
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:28,000
This company is about to go 
bankrupt. 

931
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,600
Like so many companies raised so
much more money right now. 

932
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:35,700
It's just how do we get private 
companies to match? 

933
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,900
You know, the public markets, 
who reorient strategy, I think 

934
00:47:40,900 --> 00:47:43,600
if you know the stock market 
fell much more be a different 

935
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:48,600
conversation but right now it's 
more price adjustment, maybe 

936
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,300
some companies, wait, you know, 
we've seen companies raise two 

937
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:54,300
or three times in a single year,
right? 

938
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,000
So some of these companies now 
could just sit out 2022 and say,

939
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,000
okay? 
Actually we're not fundraising 

940
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,500
this year and funds that had 
been raising from their LPS 

941
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:08,200
every two years might Deploy 
Capital more slowly to make sure

942
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,300
that they have more proof points
so that they can raise, you 

943
00:48:11,308 --> 00:48:13,300
know. 
So, maybe we'll see sort of a 

944
00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:18,400
Slowdown in the Euphoria. 
But I don't see sort of, you 

945
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,700
know, we need like Peloton or 
Robin Hood or something, to go 

946
00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:24,700
bankrupt, or like something like
that, where these stocks are 

947
00:48:24,700 --> 00:48:27,600
falling. 
And then there's no bottom that 

948
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,000
I think would be, sort of, 
totally a game changer. 

949
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,300
And I think talking to people 
right now, the conversations are

950
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:37,700
much more sass multiples were at
Sex on the private markets and 

951
00:48:37,700 --> 00:48:39,600
now they're coming back down to 
earth. 

952
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,800
And, you know, I think that's 
the type of conversation at the 

953
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,100
moment and not sort of 
existential dread. 

954
00:48:46,100 --> 00:48:48,400
What did you think? 
I thought the information had an

955
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,200
interesting story about tiger 
glow. 

956
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,000
Yeah, super jealous. 
I'd heard about block Damon. 

957
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,300
I mean, basically Tiger Tiger 
Global, you know? 

958
00:48:56,300 --> 00:49:01,500
And they also said, alky on had 
these agreements with unicorn 

959
00:49:01,500 --> 00:49:03,700
startups to invest. 
And then when the market 

960
00:49:03,700 --> 00:49:06,800
corrected, they said, oh, 
actually, we want About tweak 

961
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,100
your valuation down 20%, or 
whatever. 

962
00:49:09,100 --> 00:49:12,200
Because of the correction, you 
know, basically clawed back 

963
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,400
their terms sheets to like, 
revalue the company's right. 

964
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,300
Which is very hedge fund 
behavior and not very sort of 

965
00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:21,800
Silicon Valley, good standing, 
VC Behavior. 

966
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:25,300
But my question about that was, 
you know, like the angle for 

967
00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:28,700
that sort of a story is like, 
you know, the froth is off and 

968
00:49:28,700 --> 00:49:30,400
you know evaluations are coming 
back down to Earth. 

969
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,700
But these are all companies that
still raised at higher 

970
00:49:33,700 --> 00:49:36,900
valuations their last run around
like we're Talking about flat 

971
00:49:36,900 --> 00:49:40,300
rounds or down rounds from just 
like maybe not quite as frothy, 

972
00:49:40,700 --> 00:49:44,000
which sure that is Meaningful, 
but it's not totally thing. 

973
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:45,400
Is that it? 
That's why I'm saying it's much 

974
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,800
more about. 
Where did the hedge funds? 

975
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,200
Say, in Silicon Valley in 2022, 
like he's tiger going to shift 

976
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,600
its strategy to be much more 
public focus and pull back on 

977
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,300
private investing. 
Do they still seem? 

978
00:49:58,300 --> 00:49:59,500
I mean, the Venture Capital 
firms. 

979
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:01,500
Want tiger to look like a bad 
actor here, right? 

980
00:50:01,500 --> 00:50:04,800
I mean, there's a strong. 
Incentive to say tiger is gonna 

981
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,200
play by different rules. 
Don't trust them because in the 

982
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,100
bad times they're going to screw
you. 

983
00:50:09,100 --> 00:50:10,700
But like your point. 
Exactly. 

984
00:50:10,700 --> 00:50:13,600
I mean, these are questions 
about tiger. 

985
00:50:13,700 --> 00:50:16,400
That's not a question about like
the overall sort of Market or 

986
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,700
the sustainability of technology
companies. 

987
00:50:18,700 --> 00:50:22,600
You know, it's still about 
individual players and not sort 

988
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,700
of a huge risk. 
I don't know. 

989
00:50:25,700 --> 00:50:27,400
Do you think it's going to get 
much worse? 

990
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,300
I don't know II mean. 
I mean again I cover probably 

991
00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:33,900
one of the stranger parts of 
right. 

992
00:50:33,900 --> 00:50:36,600
Going on right now though. 
Those companies I mean they 

993
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,700
should eat it in bed in a sort 
of high interest rate like that.

994
00:50:40,700 --> 00:50:45,000
That's a bad time to be sort of 
these costly has a ton of money 

995
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,000
and they're reliant on a gig 
labor force. 

996
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,400
That is pretty volatile and has 
been throughout the pandemic. 

997
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,800
So I'm I'm always worried about 
what want worry babies in the 

998
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,600
right word but like, you know, I
think you should be wary of 

999
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,800
where any of those companies go 
and like what trend they're 

1000
00:50:59,500 --> 00:51:03,400
drafting off of in order to 
justify, you know the valuations

1001
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,100
are going for but you know, dope
of is a company that also It's 

1002
00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:08,400
to go public this year. 
So like, they're going to really

1003
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,500
test this, what a good year. 
I mean II. 

1004
00:51:10,500 --> 00:51:12,700
Yeah, I definitely think we're 
going to see fewer. 

1005
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,000
IPOs people are going to try and
hold off. 

1006
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,200
I was back Market as so weekend,
now, that if they can't get out 

1007
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,800
in a traditional IPO, what 
happens, right? 

1008
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,900
Well, yeah, I mean, I guess you 
look to the private markets 

1009
00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:28,500
again which, you know, they're 
not dry, but I guess they're 

1010
00:51:28,500 --> 00:51:31,900
what you're saying a little bit 
less exuberant than they were 

1011
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:33,400
last year. 
Hmm. 

1012
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,500
We haven't seen any down rounds 
yet though, right? 

1013
00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:38,900
I mean, we have Seen, you know 
the kind of mini correction that

1014
00:51:38,900 --> 00:51:40,500
we thought we were going it's so
early. 

1015
00:51:40,500 --> 00:51:44,000
I mean honestly at this point in
the year some of the deals 

1016
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,300
getting announced or still 
deals, there were probably 

1017
00:51:47,300 --> 00:51:51,800
raised before the market turned 
so on the private markets it 

1018
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:56,200
just takes a while for a sort of
the publicly announced deals to 

1019
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,200
come out. 
And then also hopefully you're 

1020
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,400
not in a situation where you 
need to write raised right after

1021
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,400
the correction. 
So might not be till late much 

1022
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,600
later in this. 
Year that we see truly desperate

1023
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:12,400
companies raising a Down Round 
so that can take time to hit the

1024
00:52:12,408 --> 00:52:14,000
news stories. 
I do want her. 

1025
00:52:14,008 --> 00:52:16,300
So it's let me know. 
How do you think about? 

1026
00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:20,500
Let me back up. 
So, a few years ago when it 

1027
00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:22,900
looked like there was going to 
be a Slowdown in the public 

1028
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:24,800
markets and exits were grinding 
out hard. 

1029
00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:27,700
It seemed like these were really
incentivized to continue to fund

1030
00:52:27,700 --> 00:52:32,200
startups because those startups 
seem to continue to serve some 

1031
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,200
sort of Market. 
There were still people out 

1032
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,900
there who seem to want me. 
Deliveries of warm chocolate 

1033
00:52:37,900 --> 00:52:41,300
chip cookies or, you know, these
ghosts kitchen companies to 

1034
00:52:41,300 --> 00:52:45,500
deliver the meals everyday food 
boxes sent to their home, so 

1035
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:47,800
they can make their own dinner 
and not have to measure anything

1036
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,800
I guess with the big innovation 
there anyway. 

1037
00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:53,700
Whatever it seemed like you of 
the Mockingbirds seem like the 

1038
00:52:53,707 --> 00:52:56,800
consumer was still interested in
at least experimenting. 

1039
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,900
With these companies. 
I wonder though, how consumer 

1040
00:52:59,900 --> 00:53:05,100
patterns changed so much since 
the pandemic that it wouldn't 

1041
00:53:05,100 --> 00:53:07,700
make as much sense. 
Or a VC to continue to help 

1042
00:53:07,700 --> 00:53:12,400
these companies float along with
no exit in sight, if we're in a 

1043
00:53:12,408 --> 00:53:15,400
world where there just is not 
really a consumer with the 

1044
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:20,300
desire or the or the disposable 
income to get a box of clothing 

1045
00:53:20,300 --> 00:53:22,900
to look through once a month and
keep some stuff and send some 

1046
00:53:22,900 --> 00:53:25,600
stuff back. 
If there's not really a consumer

1047
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:31,200
desire to have a meal kit 
because they can't figure out 

1048
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,100
how to measure something, 
especially if they don't have 

1049
00:53:34,100 --> 00:53:35,600
money. 
What you saw, you saw a Robin 

1050
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,500
Hood. 
The ultimate retail investor has

1051
00:53:38,500 --> 00:53:42,800
money. 
Story was down, not even growth.

1052
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:47,100
Slowing their revenue was down. 
I didn't see that. 

1053
00:53:47,100 --> 00:53:50,500
Yeah, which is like terrifying 
for a growth stock so that that 

1054
00:53:50,500 --> 00:53:55,100
fits into your thesis, I mean, 
but overall consumers, don't 

1055
00:53:55,100 --> 00:54:00,100
seem, I mean the unemployment 
rate is low and that's in part 

1056
00:54:00,100 --> 00:54:02,900
because a lot of people have 
left the workforce to, right? 

1057
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,900
It's like the pictures, the 
consumers. 

1058
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:10,000
It is muddled. 
I think I just think it's mostly

1059
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,600
an inflation story right now. 
I think the economy is good and 

1060
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:19,200
in stocks are getting hit 
because of inflation for because

1061
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,600
because the FED will raise 
interest rates and then there 

1062
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,100
will be less money that needs to
flow in to the stock market, 

1063
00:54:25,100 --> 00:54:29,400
more will go into debt and, and 
I don't know. 

1064
00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:31,900
So interesting. 
I feel like also because we're 

1065
00:54:31,900 --> 00:54:35,000
coming out of the pandemic, like
just intuitively, but I'm 

1066
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,600
thinking about the people, I 
know, Like who don't live in DC 

1067
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,500
or New York or SF like the 
people. 

1068
00:54:40,500 --> 00:54:44,000
I know like where I grew up, 
they're not economically 

1069
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:45,800
thriving. 
I guess it's hard to put it. 

1070
00:54:46,300 --> 00:54:49,300
So again, it's like which part 
of the real economy and consumer

1071
00:54:49,300 --> 00:54:52,600
economy? 
Are you focused on to like kind 

1072
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,400
of like the upper middle class 
part of the economy that is 

1073
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,800
going to get Stitch fix boxes? 
Right? 

1074
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:00,400
Here are the big man these 
Services. 

1075
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,100
I mean, Lauren are you talking 
about? 

1076
00:55:02,100 --> 00:55:05,400
Like the kind of probably more, 
I don't know. 

1077
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,500
But in terms of Like their total
income or there, but in terms of

1078
00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:12,100
just total number of bodies in 
the United States of America. 

1079
00:55:12,300 --> 00:55:14,600
I wonder if they're more bodies 
in the United States of America 

1080
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,200
who are not economically 
thriving, not doing well done. 

1081
00:55:17,500 --> 00:55:22,300
Don't have tons of expendable 
cash aren't really buying very 

1082
00:55:22,300 --> 00:55:26,700
much, which is possibly why 
holiday shopping numbers overall

1083
00:55:26,700 --> 00:55:28,800
were down even though we all 
have friends, who knew we're 

1084
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,400
buying lots of stuff for the 
holidays, you know, sort of like

1085
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,200
I just don't under there. 
I think there's sort of like in 

1086
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:40,500
the data Real disparity between 
different groups of people and I

1087
00:55:40,500 --> 00:55:42,000
don't think it's very well 
understood. 

1088
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,200
And then how does that impact? 
Something like Silicon Valley, 

1089
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,700
if the valley is really only 
making products for like, you 

1090
00:55:49,700 --> 00:55:53,200
know, the upper middle class. 
Right. 

1091
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,000
Maybe it doesn't affect Silicon 
Valley at all. 

1092
00:55:55,300 --> 00:55:56,600
Right. 
Right now. 

1093
00:55:56,700 --> 00:56:00,700
So and then that makes a very 
interesting 2024 election. 

1094
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,600
Oh you know what another good 
episode was another. 

1095
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:07,100
Good episode was remember ska 
member thus Cabo Boom in the 90s

1096
00:56:07,100 --> 00:56:10,300
a fucking horse. 
It was like Ska and then like 

1097
00:56:10,300 --> 00:56:14,000
the 1950s dance Revival. 
Oh yeah. 

1098
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,000
Yeah. 
It was like swing Revival that 

1099
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,800
Gap commercial and then like 
scar, I'm sorry, Papa gladion. 

1100
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,600
Yeah. 
Like totally traumatic, like 

1101
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,400
musical advertising blob and my 
mind. 

1102
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,800
Yeah, any dark, the No Doubt 
episode really dives into that. 

1103
00:56:32,500 --> 00:56:34,700
Yikes. 
Ah yeah. 

1104
00:56:34,700 --> 00:56:38,200
And those low waisted jeans are 
back so there's a lot happening 

1105
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,100
sort of like I feel like there 
could be a huge, no doubt 

1106
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:43,700
Revival or ask our Revival. 
Oh wow! 

1107
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,800
Wow, it's suspenders ready. 
I got a you know this is just 

1108
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:49,900
like another reason for me to 
tune out. 

1109
00:56:52,100 --> 00:56:56,300
Any waves, go away, pop culture.
Good good episode everybody. 

1110
00:56:57,100 --> 00:56:59,600
Thank you soon and tough. 
All right. 

1111
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:13,900
See you Silicon Valley, goodbye,
goodbye. 

1112
00:57:13,900 --> 00:57:16,600
Goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1113
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:13,200
Goodbye. 
Silicon Valley, goodbye, 

1114
00:57:13,300 --> 00:57:15,200
goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1115
00:57:15,300 --> 00:57:17,000
Goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye.