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Welcome back on Sally. 
Hey, welcome to dead cat. 

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Hisses are newcomer. 
We've got Tom and Katie here and

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we have Kate Clark. 
Startup reporter VC reporter 

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from the information who's been 
writing tirelessly about one, 

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Klick payment disaster. 
World with fast imploding and 

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the bolt CEO being a lunatic or 
export CEO. 

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Anyway, so we should have a fun.
Startup World conversation. 

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Katie has undiagnosed covid at 
the moment and Kate has lost her

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voice. 
So we've got a bunch of sick of 

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straddling this so sickos. 
This yeah, cait was probably 

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screaming at PR people all of 
yesterday. 

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Well, thanks for having me, 
despite despite my Lost voice. 

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Yeah, of course. 
I mean we feel like this story 

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is taken and it's been mostly 
you and your colleagues 

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reporting, you know, as taken 
Silicon Valley by storm 

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partially because it's one of 
the first real I think startup 

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implosions when, when everybody 
sort of thinks they're coming or

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I don't know, like, I just want 
you to sort of lay out this 

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story a little bit because a 
lots happened. 

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Like where does it begin to you 
like when did we all start 

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caring about one-click, checkout
companies went Did they really 

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get on your radar as like 
startups that mattered in like 

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the Zeitgeist of Silicon Valley?
Yeah, I mean it's a good 

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question. 
I think they really started to 

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matter when all of this VC 
funding flew into them. 

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Like these companies were 
raising, you know, over a 

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hundred million dollars and in 
fasts case it really, really got

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my attention when stripe 
invested which, you know, is now

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been a couple of years ago. 
And then not only the stripe 

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invest, but this company, you 
know, free product launch really

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early stage was Out in the 
market looking for a 

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billion-dollar valuation, you 
know, as long ago as like late 

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2020. 
So when you start seeing that 

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and you know, at the same time 
you're seeing them, sort of 

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pedal, these $1 hoodies on 
Twitter that didn't make a lot 

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of sense for a fin tech company.
So, I think those early signs 

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really got people paying 
attention and then you had the 

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competition with bolt and you 
had this really bombastic public

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figure CEO you know in Brian. 
Breslow sealed bolt and I think 

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he really he really Got people's
attention to. 

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So then you have this war, these
two companies, so Amazon lost 

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its patent in 2017 and then I 
think it in a couple, in the, a 

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couple years later, you really 
start to see two companies rise 

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with the help of hundreds of 
millions in VC funding together 

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and that's fast and bolt. 
Yeah. 

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Both companies had CEOs who were
all over Twitter all over the 

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tech press like really Making a 
Splash and really really trying 

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to capture and bring a lot of 
attention to what they were 

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building, which was when I got 
software so fast in particular, 

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you know, really gets on my 
radar when stripe invests and 

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then invest again that the 
series B and puts a hundred 

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million dollars. 
You know, with the help of leaf 

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Exel. 
There's a former tiger Global 

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partner. 
His forearm addition puts total 

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of a hundred million dollars in 
this company and then again, 

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pre-launch nothing to show for 
it self. 

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So, of course, we're all 
watching. 

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Paying attention wondering 
what's going on this company? 

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Luncheon, even realize, yes, and
they had a lot of delays and 

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it's a After bolt, right? 
Bolt is a little bit ahead of 

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fast. 
Yeah, so Ben and bolts run by 

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this guy, Ryan Breslow, or at 
least he he co-found sir the 

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dead and he's the CEO for a long
time until this year, which is a

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whole other story. 
Doesn't probably talked about 

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yes, a bowl. 
Get started many years before 

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actually, I think Bowl was 
founded in 2014, you know, it 

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took a long time to build the 
technology took a long time 

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before launch. 
So already had it, had a head 

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start, also had a different 
strategy, they were targeting 

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larger businesses which, you 
know, larger businesses Equals 

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more transaction. 
Volume equals more Revenue. 

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Fast was targeting smaller 
businesses and you need a lot 

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more customers in order to make 
any Dent there and that ends up 

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being a big problem for them. 
And so, then to skip it, skip 

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ahead a little bit. 
I mean Ryan Breslow is basically

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the guy who does the Tweet storm
right before leaving the CEO job

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at bolt where he says you know 
there's this Grand conspiracy 

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where YC and stripe or basically
running Silicon Valley and it's 

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made it hard for him to fun with
the Irish mafia, right? 

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Exactly. 
So you know that, Now it's The 

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Road to Perdition drama. 
And honestly it made me think 

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sort of not following these 
companies closely like, oh, fast

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the Rival must be doing super 
well because this tweet storm 

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seems really like defensive. 
It's like, oh, you know, we've 

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had such a hard time because all
the stars have aligned with our 

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rival fast. 
Yeah. 

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And then all of a sudden so then
then what happens with fast 

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like. 
So all of a sudden I had heard 

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of fast because you know the 
co-founder is what Allison. 

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Our Allen Bar Allen. 
Yeah, who is XU Burr? 

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And was sort of Buzzy Twitter 
presence. 

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So I knew I was more aware of 
her then Dom. 

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But so yeah, we're pick us up 
from. 

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We've got the Tweet storm and 
then where's the, what's the 

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first sign of something going on
at fast? 

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Yeah. 
So what would was tweet? 

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Starting January January, 
February, let's say, okay, so a 

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few months ago, I remember 
reading that tweet storm and 

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thinking what is, you know, what
is Dom? 

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The CEO fast going to say, you 
know, he had been, he'd gone 

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quite quiet on Twitter, I 
noticed then and again this is 

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someone who was very loud on 
Twitter for several years and he

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made some statement on Twitter 
like supporting Ryan Breslow, 

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which I thought was interesting.
But at the time, you know, I was

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not aware of any issues at fast.
I like I didn't think that they 

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were booming necessarily, but I 
wasn't aware of what was to 

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come. 
What's really unique to me about

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this about fast. 
And what's really crazy is how 

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fast how fast it all happened, 
like the collapse. 

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I don't think I've ever seen. 
Suppling have a collapse so 

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accelerated. 
So you know, we first heard of 

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issues there. 
I want to say less than three 

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weeks ago. 
Yeah, maybe about three weeks 

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ago and, you know, the companies
already shut down. 

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So, and that is because I mean 
at the end of the day, it's 

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because they expected. 
They could raise more money and 

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it was saying, oh good, Venture 
capitalists are not as readily 

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investing in companies right now
as you know, so they just it 

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just happened. 
Like what was interesting about 

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it to me? 
Is it it shut the fuck down like

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you don't see that that often in
Tech, you know, companies will 

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have soft Landings, they'll 
manage to place, you know, half 

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of the P'nay elsewhere. 
They'll be just some sort of 

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selling in parts that happens 
but a full-on like everything 

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must go. 
This shit is over with. 

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Shut it all down. 
Just doesn't happen that often 

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and certainly not one that is. 
When's the last time you saw 

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that? 
Was it just Arrow? 

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I mean this is like eight years 
ago, seven years ago. 

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This is like very personal to me
because I wrote about one 

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company. 
This was like 7 years ago, there

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was like a laundry company 
called washio. 

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That had some high end VCS in a 
laundry space. 

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So, you did a new laundry 
strike. 

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I'll never stop. 
Keep it. 

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Your laundry stories. 
I will I will I will take you 

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seriously. 
It was like a ten million dollar

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round or something. 
They didn't I say. 

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Yeah Taro and it's hot. 
Tom actually just he just needs 

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a new washer dryer. 
That's the actual no, actually I

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got a new one that's will do a 
spin-off podcast about my my 

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back and forth with my home 
warranty. 

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But, but yeah, they they shut 
down like sold the desk sold the

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Macbook. 
So that was one that I remember,

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but, you know, not this is more 
professional than that. 

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This was 100 million race. 
This is different. 

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There have been many like, dis 
Arrow type startup implosions, 

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but I don't know how many there 
have been when they're, you 

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know, over 500 or roughly 500 
employees and I think that's why

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it happened so quickly. 
It's like there were the, the 

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other option, I guess would have
been laying off 400 workers and 

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trying to keep on 100. 
But I think, you know, when you 

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actually have zero dollars and 
no VC is willing to invest. 

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Like they just they put 
themselves up against a wall by 

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growing so fast in 2021 they 
hired then went from 92 like 

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nearly 400 workers in 2021 and 
they were bragging about the 

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pace of employee growth as if 
that was sort of a sign of 

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underlying success which you all
reported and then the revenue 

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figure is astounding. 
How did you get the sort of 

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financials who it was six 
hundred thousand dollars in 

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Revenue in a year s offer? 
Yeah, from their checkout 

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software. 
So and I note that because they 

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also have emerged business. 
So they sell t-shirts and 

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hoodies, and they've got they've
sold 60,000 hoodies according to

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the website. 
Oh, my God, it's like Evernote 

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back for maybe a dollar. 
Yes. 

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So there's there's perhaps other
Revenue that we didn't account 

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for. 
I don't know how much I'm there,

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merge business. 
But yes, I think we were we were

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quite shocked by that number as 
well. 

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It's so much to ask about with 
the, I mean, I don't want to 

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jump too far ahead because the 
actual details of how Dom ran 

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the company or hysterical and, 
you know, to use an overused 

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term like a cautionary tale with
in Tech. 

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But my takeaway from there being
just no outcome for the company,

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is that there was Nothing there 
in the end. 

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Like there was no Tech of 
substance to acquire. 

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I mean, it's a quasi fairness 
situation where like when you 

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really get down to like what it 
invented or what it really 

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produced over the course of its 
lifetime. 

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There's just nothing of value. 
No one wanted to a choir shit 

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other than some Engineers. 
Right there was some problems in

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years. 
Yeah. 

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And we'll see, I'll, I'm very 
curious myself, how many of them

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like what that deal actually 
entailed and how many Engineers 

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firms actually going to take on 
yeah as in a choir or just 

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hiring people? 
Well, it was Some kind of 

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agreement where they're going to
take on. 

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Like, I don't know the specific.
So we basically, we just said, 

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in our story like a firm agreed 
to take on, I'm in, probably 

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like a couple dozen of them. 
I think they have like a pretty 

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pretty large engineering team. 
So, I mean, there's a certain 

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responsibility when a company 
dies you're supposed to. 

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Like, I mean, I think they're 
even laws about it like you're 

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supposed to. 
If you think your company is 

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about to run out of money, 
you're supposed to say save 

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enough to give some sort of 
reasonable To the people that 

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work there. 
Like, did they, they gave like, 

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two days of severance or what 
did they do when this whole 

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thing shuts down to, like, look 
out for the employees. 

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Yeah, I don't know what the 
severance packages were, but 

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you're right there, I mean, not 
only is there may be rules or 

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laws but they also as a CEO he 
should have been thinking 

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further ahead and that's why I 
like the only way I can 

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understand what happened is by 
believing that he was 100% 

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certain that he would be able to
get that rescue financing at the

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end. 
I think that he really thought 

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the VCS like stripe or addition 
or index Ventures who are all 

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you know, big investors in this 
company. 

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I think he really believes that 
one of them would would provide 

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that last-minute round look like
what good is being tied in with 

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the mob. 
Yeah, exactly. 

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Like it, right? 
And what is your thinking on 

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like why they didn't think we've
seen Venture Capital firms 

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bailout? 
So many companies. 

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Yeah, was it simply the insanity
of the CEO. 

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What, why was it? 
They chose to let this one go 

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and not just let it go. 
But like in a really public and 

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Incredibly dramatic way, right? 
I mean, because it's, it hurts 

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their reputations, right? 
Like, I mean, particularly 

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stripe who is like a absolutely 
balli darling, that's kind of 

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developed this big reputation as
an investor to But I mean, I 

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think the real reason is likely 
because of how large the company

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was and how much money it would 
have required. 

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00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:36,500
Because it's not like one round 
would have, would have been the 

226
00:11:36,500 --> 00:11:38,600
Silver Bullet. 
It's going to need to continued 

227
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,900
investment and how, I mean, how 
much hundreds of millions like 

228
00:11:41,900 --> 00:11:46,000
like to support a 500-person 
company that is made six hundred

229
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,700
thousand dollars in Revenue like
yeah, ten million dollars a 

230
00:11:49,708 --> 00:11:52,100
month and burn so just, you 
know, you can do that math. 

231
00:11:52,100 --> 00:11:54,900
So I think that's the answer. 
I think another, you know, I 

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mean, I don't want to Be late 
too much, but I think that 

233
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,100
there's perhaps I think some of 
these investors might have 

234
00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:05,100
realized what they had on our 
hands with dom and Lady realized

235
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that what he had promised. 
You know, he was not delivering 

236
00:12:07,900 --> 00:12:09,500
on his promises. 
So I think there was some of 

237
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that as well. 
And maybe just the markets 

238
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themselves, sort of everyone 
seems like they're taking a step

239
00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:18,700
back, a little bit to assess. 
Absolutely bad timing for them 

240
00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:20,600
with that, right? 
This was 20 21. 

241
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,200
Yeah, I gotta say can like, can 
Massa no longer be tricked into 

242
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,100
taking these shitty companies, 
what happened? 

243
00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:28,600
Wow. 
He wasn't crazy enough, soft 

244
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,500
pink ball pulled back? 
Yeah, iger's kind of pulled back

245
00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:35,800
and if it was a different, I 
mean, yes that's what's also 

246
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,600
really interesting about this as
it really tells a story of the 

247
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,700
moment and I think we're going 
to see we're definitely going to

248
00:12:42,700 --> 00:12:45,600
see more of this. 
This is certainly an outlier for

249
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,900
certain reasons like the 
behavior of the CEO. 

250
00:12:47,900 --> 00:12:51,900
He already had a spotty past 
Etc, but I think we'll see many 

251
00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:54,900
more startup implosions because 
they're just not gonna be able 

252
00:12:54,900 --> 00:12:57,600
to raise the money. 
They need to keep Going, can we 

253
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,300
dig into that for a second here?
I'm and I want to definitely go 

254
00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:03,000
into the larger implications and
what, you know, what it all 

255
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,700
means going forward. 
But he's I mean, there's so much

256
00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:09,600
funny stuff in your story on the
way he ran the company and like 

257
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,800
the big kind of company-wide 
meetings. 

258
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,100
I'm still watching the we work 
show. 

259
00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:16,800
So I just saw the episode where 
they have like the, we work, you

260
00:13:16,808 --> 00:13:20,700
know, cult Camp. 
You know, we were chanting. 

261
00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:26,300
So what like give us some 
anecdotes from, how how Dom was 

262
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,600
Hanging out in Florida with jet 
skis. 

263
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,100
Oh yeah. 
So that I actually, I highly 

264
00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:33,700
recommend anyone listening. 
You can go on Facebook and 

265
00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:36,700
search this and you can watch 
the video and it is surreal. 

266
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:40,100
So, Dom last year decided to 
open an East Coast Hub or east 

267
00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:42,800
coast headquarters in Tampa 
Florida where he had moved. 

268
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,700
So yeah I bought a house there 
and you had a yes, Tampa 

269
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:48,300
Florida. 
So I'm not even my Tampa 

270
00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:53,100
strawberry Choice. 
He bought a very nice home in 

271
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:55,600
Tampa open up, open up a 
headquarters. 

272
00:13:55,900 --> 00:14:00,300
Anyhow Hosted this big really 
lavish exciting event to 

273
00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:02,400
announce this. 
He has the mayor of Tampa there 

274
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,400
with him. 
He has several local sports 

275
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,600
stars who I can't name, you 
know, sports teams that are 

276
00:14:07,608 --> 00:14:10,000
based there. 
And then he makes a grand 

277
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,500
entrance in a NASCAR with a, a 
NASCAR race driver in the driver

278
00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:19,100
seat, and they do a bunch of 
doughnuts spinning around in the

279
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:21,200
vehicle. 
And then, in a revving, the 

280
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,100
engine like crazy. 
And then they'll and you right 

281
00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:26,200
next to kind of where the 
mayor's speak again. 

282
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,700
Dom gets out. 
He has somebody in the audience,

283
00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:31,700
put his jacket on him, kind of 
like you know like a celebrity 

284
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:35,600
Pink Blazer walks up on stage 
and then just gives this speech 

285
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,100
about how, you know, how the 
phenomenal growth that they've 

286
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:42,700
had what's ahead for them, how 
they, you know, Tampa's the next

287
00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:44,300
big Hub. 
And they, you know, he's got all

288
00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:47,200
these local supporters because 
of course, the mayor was there, 

289
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:47,800
right? 
Yeah. 

290
00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:48,800
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

291
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,800
Mary Jane Kelly, Eric everyone 
who buys a house in Tampa gets 

292
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,600
this treatment. 
So just know that if you buy a 

293
00:14:54,608 --> 00:14:58,200
house in Tampa, Summer in Kansas
is one of the things that happen

294
00:14:58,500 --> 00:14:59,800
nice city. 
You know? 

295
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,700
It is. 
It's a real, it's a big. 

296
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:04,700
I think it's a biggest, major 
blow down there in Florida. 

297
00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:07,000
It is. 
Yeah, I think Florida mayor is 

298
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,800
one of those jobs that like, at 
some point in your career, you 

299
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,100
may not you may not put on your 
LinkedIn like Florida town, 

300
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:15,800
mayor is a chance. 
You're just like yeah, that did 

301
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,100
that did happen but let's not go
after the events you went to 

302
00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:22,400
were with some sort of like 
huckster Florida man type you 

303
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,600
know you look the yeah I'm like 
yeah look at some point. 

304
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,400
Mary. 
You converted your entire income

305
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,500
into Shiba Inu. 
You realize that this was all a 

306
00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:34,900
huge mistake and your third wife
is leaving you. 

307
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:38,800
And yeah, you didn't realize you
gave Dom from Fast, a pink 

308
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,800
jacket like it's all a blur 
anyway. 

309
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,100
Well yeah that was going down. 
He's got all their support 

310
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:46,600
because this is like a, what 
there may be a third tier Tech 

311
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:47,800
Hub, whatever you want to call 
it. 

312
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,000
That's trying to invite more 
Tech workers. 

313
00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:54,400
So there are so excited that you
know, they say this is one of 

314
00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,200
the fastest growing companies in
Silicon Valley. 

315
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,500
Lee which, you know, he just 
told them and they repeated and 

316
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:10,700
it's exciting to watch. 
I mean it to see what else we 

317
00:16:10,708 --> 00:16:13,400
can get you a video with a 
bearer of the mayor of 

318
00:16:13,408 --> 00:16:17,000
Pensacola. 
Yeah, so anyways, it's eight 

319
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,800
months later there are sent down
so it's quite a sight to see. 

320
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:21,800
Any didn't hire anyone in Tampa,
right? 

321
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,100
Nobody. 
Yeah, that one colleague. 

322
00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:28,200
Who moved out there with him. 
An engineering manager. 

323
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,800
Yeah, but that it was. 
Yeah. 

324
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,000
I mean, he was again, false 
promises. 

325
00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:34,800
I don't know what his intentions
are. 

326
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,800
This guy is not, he'd like 
changed his name because his 

327
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,500
past was good. 
That's you right? 

328
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:43,300
He used to be got he used to go 
by Dominic, he changed it to 

329
00:16:43,308 --> 00:16:45,200
Dom. 
Long story short, he had a 

330
00:16:45,208 --> 00:16:49,500
towing tow truck startup in 
Australia that not only like was

331
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:52,100
liquidated but there was like 
some really bad things that 

332
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:54,700
happened to some of the like it 
just kind of screwed over all 

333
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:56,200
the employees and you can read 
about that. 

334
00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:58,800
I think NPR has done some good 
reporting on that. 

335
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,400
And I mean I personally think 
that some of the early investors

336
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,300
did not know about that and that
is completely on them. 

337
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,099
It just takes a Google search 
but I think we were it's not 

338
00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:10,099
like he changed his name from 
Dominic to Richard. 

339
00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:13,300
He changes him. 
Nominated are incredibly easy to

340
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:15,500
find and I think it just really 
telling of the moment you know 

341
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:19,599
that was 2019 when he raised all
that early funding and certainly

342
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:23,400
that was at 2021 but honestly 
2019 was pretty like euphoric 

343
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,000
and Venture Capital to it was 
just before the pain that Boom. 

344
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,900
So it was during a period that 
lasted years where diligence was

345
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,400
sometimes don't exist. 
I mean, I literally just just a 

346
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,700
pause there, like there was the 
2012. 

347
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:40,100
Boom, the 2014, Boom, the 26 
teams of the Trump, Boom, the 

348
00:17:40,100 --> 00:17:42,300
recession. 
Boom, the penalty was abuzz the 

349
00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:43,400
valley. 
Not booming. 

350
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,700
They will Bloom for anything 
bill, right? 

351
00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:46,900
Boom. 
Is not even Sims. 

352
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:50,000
I don't know. 
It's sort of no. 

353
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,500
But sometimes, there are like 
three weeks for three-week-long 

354
00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:55,500
drawbacks and, you know, the 
batten down the hatches winter. 

355
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:59,200
Winter comes. 
Yeah, like winter comes for a 

356
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:04,300
long weekend this, I just think 
that's not what you know, but 

357
00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:06,600
that's just crazy to me. 
That it would have been easy to 

358
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,600
find out more about his past. 
Yeah, I mean, literally you 

359
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,000
probably when you Google like 
Dominic or Dom they're just, you

360
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,100
know, Google's like did you mean
Dominic? 

361
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:19,900
I mean y'all Hammers and index. 
I mean, he's sort of the lead 

362
00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:24,200
early investor here, right? 
Or I feel like he's big in Robin

363
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,200
Hood, which is his own company 
that people have liked. 

364
00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:28,500
Big big moral like objections 
to. 

365
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:32,300
I don't know, like, what's your 
sense of his role here? 

366
00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:33,900
Yeah. 
So he's the First Institutional 

367
00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:36,000
Investor. 
So he plays a huge role in 

368
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,000
providing credibility to this 
early stage company. 

369
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:43,000
He is at the time already big 
and Robin Hood transferwise and 

370
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,800
add Yen, which are three of, you
know, the largest fintech 

371
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,200
companies. 
So he is kind of the consumer 

372
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,700
fintech investor. 
Like, there's no denying that 

373
00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:53,300
again, that he provided that 
credibility, I don't know what 

374
00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:55,500
he knew. 
I mean, you can I cited some of 

375
00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:57,300
the blog? 
That he wrote about fast and 

376
00:18:57,300 --> 00:19:01,700
2020, he really believed in Dom 
and he thought that Dom was an 

377
00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:05,600
incredible leader and said many 
nice things about him. 

378
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,900
You know, he wouldn't, they 
would not comment for the 

379
00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:11,200
article. 
So I couldn't really find out 

380
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,000
more about what actually 
happened in more recent times. 

381
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,700
I mean, one broader, one Trend 
in Silicon Valley that I'm sure 

382
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:20,900
you've seen, is just like these 
boards are becoming more and 

383
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:26,200
more like founder inventions, 
they like bring on whoever they 

384
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:29,400
And so that they don't get 
bothered by like their investors

385
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,200
and I went in the Wayback 
machine and it's like in January

386
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:39,600
2021, they say their board is 
Dom, lucky groom and Brian sugar

387
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,400
from group 9. 
Like what, what is that for? 

388
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,900
Like I mean I think of you know,
lucky as you know, he was at 

389
00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:50,700
stripe, he deployed a lot of 
capital. 

390
00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:54,200
Like what what's the, what's the
deal there? 

391
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,600
And then I guess like towards 
the end, And I forget you 

392
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,400
probably know the board at the 
end better than I do. 

393
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:01,600
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

394
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:08,100
I think it's it's a small board.
I think it's maybe someone an 

395
00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:11,300
executive might, right? 
Yeah, Brian Dom. 

396
00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:12,900
And and Ian. 
Yeah. 

397
00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:15,700
So it's interesting. 
Lucky lucky groom was a surly 

398
00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:19,900
stripe employee as we know now 
is like a big-time solo VC. 

399
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,100
He is not investor in fast but 
he has a close relationship with

400
00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:26,100
stripe and was sort of like 
there he represented straight. 

401
00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:30,000
The board basically, like he is 
kind of like a call a favor. 

402
00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:32,000
He knew stripe. 
Well, I thought he'd be good. 

403
00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:35,500
So he's on the board for a bit. 
I don't know much about Brian 

404
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:36,500
sugar. 
I know I know. 

405
00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:38,100
Brian quit. 
Yeah, welcome down. 

406
00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:39,400
Would ya? 
I mean, Brian. 

407
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,000
Brian is the president of group 
9. 

408
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,500
I imagine he may be on his way 
out. 

409
00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:48,900
Post the merger with Vox and 
then he has a side Venture fund 

410
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:51,100
that I think he invested his 
personal capital. 

411
00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:53,500
I think called like sugar fund 
or something and they're an 

412
00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:56,100
investor in fast. 
Yeah, and they do a lot. 

413
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,100
He's done a lot of e-commerce 
like oh yeah, see stuff. 

414
00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:01,600
Yeah he does a lot of data, see 
stuff, he knows e-commerce but 

415
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,200
not necessarily the fan Tech 
side. 

416
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,800
Apparently I don't know, I don't
want to speak for Brian. 

417
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,500
We should ask him to come on 
some time because he's a chatty 

418
00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:13,800
guy but you know, he's plugged 
into that space but seems like 

419
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,100
something something. 
There's it seems like there's a 

420
00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:18,400
bit of a gap between that 
expertise. 

421
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,900
And what would have been good 
oversight for this company? 

422
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,800
Would be my assumption that I 
was, you know, in the reporting 

423
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,900
process, we were told Some 
former employees that Brian was 

424
00:21:28,900 --> 00:21:32,200
often cited kind of like in 
sales pitches as like in a lucky

425
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,600
investor and some of the sales 
people were like why are we even

426
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,900
talking about this guy like this
is it going to be relevant to 

427
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:39,700
any of these customers so there 
was a lot of confusion about 

428
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:43,900
like your dry why they promoted 
certain investors in the in the 

429
00:21:43,908 --> 00:21:47,900
pitching to two clients. 
He has a great Instagram, I 

430
00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:50,600
follow him there because it's 
all solid stories, a lot of home

431
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,200
cooking, you're all over the 
startup World stuff. 

432
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,200
What's your view on like, I 
don't know. 

433
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,300
Board composition. 
Isshin right now sort of 

434
00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:00,700
generally because, you know, we 
saw, you know, the Tigers of the

435
00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:03,900
world basically being like we 
don't want aboard see we don't 

436
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:07,400
want to meddle, it gave the 
founders a lot more like control

437
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,900
over who they appointed. 
I'm sure you've heard the same 

438
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:13,500
things as I have where there 
there early investors who 

439
00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:15,600
bristle you know, the Sequoias 
the world. 

440
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,000
I mean they're obviously all 
over but when they invest early 

441
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,700
it's sort of like oh we have to 
keep being the responsible 

442
00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:22,700
person. 
Even though these sort of hedge 

443
00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:25,100
funds crossovers come in, I 
don't know. 

444
00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:27,300
What do you think? 
There's Have any optimism that 

445
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:31,200
there's a move back to like, 
okay, investors need to take a 

446
00:22:31,208 --> 00:22:33,800
board so you can have some, 
like, culpability for their the 

447
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,300
companies they invest in. 
I mean, I think, I think it'll 

448
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:39,200
be interesting to have this 
conversation and like six to 

449
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,700
nine months when there's been 
more of a Fallout because right 

450
00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:44,100
now, a lot of, the more 
traditional Silicon Valley 

451
00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:47,100
investors who do take board 
seats are really trying to 

452
00:22:47,108 --> 00:22:49,100
convince me of like how messed 
up. 

453
00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:52,400
It is the strategy, the tiger 
took, which is, you know, not 

454
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,200
not to take board seats and to 
be passive investor. 

455
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,000
Because now a lot of those 
companies, Knees are struggling 

456
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,400
more and they don't have like 
the expertise. 

457
00:22:59,500 --> 00:23:01,900
And this is this is only if you 
believe that some of these 

458
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:03,600
people are actually helpful on 
the board. 

459
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,000
If you believe that then some of
these companies feel a little 

460
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,800
bit abandoned because they don't
have that support and more 

461
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,600
difficult times. 
So I mean, I think it will be 

462
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,000
interesting to see like if a lot
of tiger Global backed companies

463
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,300
which and negatively, a lot of 
them are going to fail because 

464
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:21,600
there's hundreds and hundreds of
them if they if they do feel 

465
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,200
abandoned and there's a more of 
a public dialogue about that, I 

466
00:23:24,208 --> 00:23:27,300
do think that we will see a 
shift But it kind of depends on.

467
00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:29,900
Again, it's really about, if you
believe that these people are 

468
00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:34,300
really helpful members of the 
board, which you can only find 

469
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:37,700
out and more difficult times. 
It does seem Reckless to me, 

470
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,700
just like, you know, like you're
saying these companies rate get 

471
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:44,700
customers based on the firms to 
invest. 

472
00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:46,800
It's not like they're Anonymous.
It's not like we just have 

473
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,700
Anonymous money. 
It's like we have named money 

474
00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:55,400
and so the firm's reputations 
are being attached to these 

475
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,700
companies. 
And just like, I don't know, I 

476
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,600
run a business. 
I wouldn't want my brand to just

477
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,600
be attached to things. 
I had no influence over what 

478
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,300
what came of it it's like people
are ruining your brand and you 

479
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:08,900
don't care like to me like if 
there's more of a correction 

480
00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:11,800
like just there will be business
pressure to worry about it 

481
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,100
because you're trashing your 
brand by attaching it to 

482
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:16,900
companies. 
That's probably why the plug was

483
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:21,000
pulled at this point rather than
you know investors, I mean yeah 

484
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,900
like there's a different way of 
an investor nothing more 

485
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:25,500
embarrassing than a company with
six hundred thousand dollars in 

486
00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:28,200
Revenue. 
I mean it's just like that's a 

487
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:29,600
makes you look like an idiot. 
Yeah. 

488
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:30,900
Right. 
They should address it. 

489
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:33,900
I think that it's frustrating as
a reporter that all of these 

490
00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:35,600
investors are being so silent 
about it. 

491
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,800
I think, you know, I mean I know
it's we all say this but it's 

492
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,900
like the hive table so much and 
they beg us to write about them 

493
00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:44,500
and that it's like the times 
that there are these these 

494
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:45,800
implosions. 
I just wish there was more 

495
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,400
honest about it. 
I think like that's frustrating.

496
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,800
Agreed, you know, every startup 
forwarder would agree with you, 

497
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:53,500
right? 
Like, we all it's a broken 

498
00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:56,400
record, but, but as far as the 
like the what you're Thing about

499
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,000
the board and the brand, I 
think, like the hedge fund 

500
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,600
crossover funds. 
I actually don't think that 

501
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:01,800
that's something they're 
concerned about. 

502
00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:04,200
I think that perspective is a 
very like, Silicon Valley 

503
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,900
venture capital firm, Sand, Hill
Road, Our Brands, important, 

504
00:25:06,900 --> 00:25:09,900
like tigers, as you know, we've 
all reported as like operating 

505
00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:12,900
like a public market investor 
and just like, treating 

506
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:15,500
everybody like stocks. 
So different strategy. 

507
00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:19,500
What I mean, what's the 
situation now with with bolt? 

508
00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:23,900
Obviously their CEO, got 
shit-canned is the chair he got 

509
00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:26,700
elevated, he ascends he was from
Right? 

510
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:29,700
He got a pyramid chairman of the
board now. 

511
00:25:29,900 --> 00:25:32,700
So he's still revolved. 
You reach, Enlightenment? 

512
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:35,800
Even rest and top. 
Yeah, he decided he wanted to 

513
00:25:35,808 --> 00:25:37,800
spend more time with his Twitter
posts. 

514
00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:40,300
That is what a chairman allows 
you to do. 

515
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:42,900
He's got a lot of side projects.
I mean, didn't he say in his 

516
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:45,300
Twitter that initially that he 
was thinking about building some

517
00:25:45,300 --> 00:25:47,700
kind of Y, combinator 
competitor, he said something 

518
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:50,600
about like yay. 
Yeah he's working with the 

519
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,400
founder of Mind Med which is so 
psychedelics companies like love

520
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,900
medicine or what's it called 
It's called love our love.com, 

521
00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:00,100
okay? 
They've really gotten to the 

522
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:02,800
essence of what what people 
want, you know, we're selling 

523
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,000
blockchain psychedelic or not. 
It's actually, it's not 

524
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,800
psychedelics. 
It's right, is the intersection 

525
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,500
of psychedelics and blockchain. 
It's yeah, it's it. 

526
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:13,600
Anyways, he's doing that. 
He's involved. 

527
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,400
Decal and bolts doing much 
better than fast. 

528
00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:17,800
We, I think we reported the 
revenue. 

529
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,300
I'm doing much better than fast 
that's well. 

530
00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:22,400
Well, obviously. 
Yeah, they're still, there still

531
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,300
a business, like, souvenirs also
doing better than your right But

532
00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:28,800
they had 40 million. 
I think 40 million Revenue last 

533
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,000
year, so a better business but 
they do have like a 12 13 

534
00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:36,100
billion dollar valuation. 
So the correction is probably 

535
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:38,600
overdo there. 
But like I said doing a lot 

536
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:39,900
better than fast. 
Right. 

537
00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:42,900
Okay so so so is there still a 
belief? 

538
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:44,700
I mean because I imagine what 
happened with both. 

539
00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:48,000
These companies is that there 
was this thesis on the part of 

540
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,300
investors saying, like well the 
patent is expiring there's going

541
00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:54,800
to be a bun or at least like a 
couple of winners of people in 

542
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,500
like the one-click checkout. 
Space. 

543
00:26:56,700 --> 00:26:59,200
And so that's how you get, you 
know, quick Investments and high

544
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,200
valuations early on. 
With these two companies fast is

545
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,900
dead bolt is, you know, I guess 
doing better, but is there like 

546
00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:08,800
still a strong belief among 
investors that? 

547
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,900
There's a real opportunity here 
or is this just something that 

548
00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:14,700
what little business exists is 
just going to be owned by 

549
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,800
whatever Amazon one-click 
checkout or Apple pay or what I 

550
00:27:18,808 --> 00:27:20,800
mean. 
Like is there anything here? 

551
00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:23,500
Or is this just a mistake? 
I think people are gonna like 

552
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:25,700
put that on ice for a little bit
and maybe it keep their 

553
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:27,200
distance. 
I don't think we're going to see

554
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,000
a lot of funding there. 
I mean, I think it's also like a

555
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,400
product that I'll other fan text
can build, right? 

556
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,100
A firm was sort of, didn't you 
say this in the story sort of 

557
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:36,800
competing with them? 
I mean, obviously a firm offers 

558
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,000
a different product, but I mean,
people are building in this type

559
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,200
of I think a bit more complex 
businesses are incorporating 

560
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,400
this into their business. 
Like, I don't think that we're 

561
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,200
going to see a lot of funding 
and Standalone one-click 

562
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,800
checkout companies. 
Here's my big question. 

563
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:54,200
Do you think if the Tweet storm 
never gets dropped? 

564
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,700
You know, I Ryan told What the 
three cartoon avatars but I 

565
00:27:58,708 --> 00:28:01,500
guess he was like oh I'd been 
sitting on it for two or three 

566
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:02,700
years, waiting for the right 
moment. 

567
00:28:02,700 --> 00:28:05,400
Like you think of you never 
drops up fast and still in 

568
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,100
business today? 
Like do you think like that 

569
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:11,300
really drew the attention in or 
you think this was like this was

570
00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:14,500
coming, whether there was the 
Absurd, I think this was coming.

571
00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:17,400
I just didn't care about these 
companies until it was like he 

572
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,300
was talking about but you 
reported them so you know your 

573
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:23,400
own interest in it and I don't 
if I wasn't doing it I do them 

574
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,700
well I think so I guess I'm 
biased. 

575
00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:27,900
It's hard for Like have an 
objective opinion on that 

576
00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:29,200
because I already knew them 
already knew. 

577
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,600
Ryan, are you Dom? 
But I could know. 

578
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:32,900
I really think it was 
inevitable. 

579
00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:36,200
You just can't you can't burn 
ten million dollars a month. 

580
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,900
What the only thing that could 
have saved them is, you know, 

581
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,100
going back, six months and like 
us, like not allowing the stock 

582
00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:46,400
market to the behavior that as, 
you know, right? 

583
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,800
It's because of the environment 
change what also, it seems like 

584
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,900
the mistake that they made here 
is that there were only burning 

585
00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:55,600
10 million a month, you know. 
Like that's an unfortunate. 

586
00:28:56,100 --> 00:28:58,000
Ozone to be in if you're burning
two million. 

587
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,100
Oh yeah, you've got some Runway 
if you're burning 100 million or

588
00:29:01,100 --> 00:29:03,600
like 70 million. 
Oh, then you've got investors 

589
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,400
really feeling that they need to
get this thing going because 

590
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,300
because you're in the 
too-big-to-fail zone, but like 

591
00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:10,900
10 million is like, you didn't 
go big enough right? 

592
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:13,200
Actually, it's funny because a 
lot of people after the article 

593
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,300
came out, we're like, well, you 
know, like that's pretty normal 

594
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:18,600
for a start-up like burning 10 
million and like not making any 

595
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,100
revenue and like, okay, well, 
like a semi the list of 

596
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,900
examples, I would like to have 
is like, you know, others that 

597
00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:29,000
Okay, but again, yeah, if you 
run out of the funding, then 

598
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,600
you're screwed. 
So it doesn't really seem like 

599
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,300
what was, what was Uber doing, 
Eric at like, edits craziest and

600
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:37,300
I mean, who burn like two 
billion dollars in China and 

601
00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:40,200
like a lot of the revenue was 
like yeah if you want to be 

602
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,800
late, so many accounting games. 
Yeah. 

603
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,900
I was going to actually joke on 
your point about yeah, not 

604
00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:47,500
pretty enough money. 
There is like, well, we're a 

605
00:29:47,508 --> 00:29:48,900
company that burns through a lot
of money. 

606
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:51,600
So we need to raise a lot of 
capital, which means you'll be 

607
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,900
able to deploy a lot of capital.
Take a lot of owners are, you 

608
00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:57,200
know, you can sell any of these 
things is like, Upside in boom 

609
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,000
times where it's like, oh yeah, 
we want to deploy. 

610
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,800
And this is a company that 
really, really has appetite for 

611
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:04,300
Capital, right? 
I mean if you're good at 

612
00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:06,800
fundraising, then you can fund 
raise a lot of money and that's 

613
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:07,800
the thing. 
It's like, there are these 

614
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,100
people in Silicon Valley who 
like they've started. 

615
00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:11,400
A lot of companies, we know 
them. 

616
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,500
They're really good there. 
They have a lot of charm, big 

617
00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:17,600
personalities, and they're 
really good at selling a vision 

618
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,900
and like all, sometimes, 
obviously, sometimes terrible at

619
00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:24,000
building, but that ability to 
fundraise really well can take 

620
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,700
you really far. 
I would not be As if Tom is back

621
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:30,100
in a year with a new company, 
raising my, I really won't be 

622
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,800
Insider. 
We ran a story. 

623
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,000
I had nothing to do with it, but
we ran a story. 

624
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,600
Interviewing, some of the angel 
investors who were like hundred 

625
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,800
percent back him again. 
Do it tomorrow? 

626
00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:39,600
Pitch Me Pitch. 
Me. 

627
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,300
Dom pitch, me hard like yeah, I 
love it. 

628
00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:46,400
They love this shit. 
What, what are some companies 

629
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,500
that have burned that much 
money, or more that did turn 

630
00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:53,800
around. 
And we're successful, like, 

631
00:30:53,900 --> 00:30:55,900
obviously Uber, but they had to 
shut down. 

632
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,000
Down some of its money losing. 
They had to shut down like a lot

633
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,600
of projects. 
I'm order to like look, here's 

634
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,600
this is like Javi. 
I'm interested, but like, should

635
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,000
be very high. 
Right, I'm margin, right? 

636
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,800
It's like, yeah, it's like, 
what's a pure software company 

637
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,500
that has had that kind of burn 
rate will palantir burn. 

638
00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:15,800
A lot of, I mean, palantir had 
the whole Consulting thing 

639
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,800
forever, where it was like, 
yeah, that's they were never a 

640
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,700
pure software company because 
their software us too hard to 

641
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:23,800
use needed. 
Like so many people. 

642
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,800
All right at it first to make it
go. 

643
00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:29,500
So but yeah, it's like so weird.
I just like the math is so 

644
00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:32,800
bizarre doesn't make anything. 
But on the angel investment 

645
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,500
point, I just wanted to say, I 
mean, you know, we had Parker 

646
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:38,500
Conrad on is our first guest. 
He's sort of the case in point 

647
00:31:38,500 --> 00:31:43,100
on Fantastical blow-ups, or a 
strong sign that this is a CEO, 

648
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:46,600
who knows where the action is, 
you know, knows how to build a 

649
00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:49,500
company with Buzz Right Place 
Wrong. 

650
00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:53,800
You know, I mean obviously I 
mean some people would say what 

651
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,700
Parker it is and if it's is 
worse, I mean I think Parker I 

652
00:31:56,700 --> 00:31:59,700
know Parker better. 
He's such a product Visionary 

653
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:02,600
that it feels like. 
There's so much substance there 

654
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,200
that it was believable. 
But yeah, I mean there's a 

655
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,400
reason to back Founders who have
crazy blow-ups, I mean, because 

656
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,300
they did some things really well
and learned things from the 

657
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:14,900
rest, right? 
I mean, it's frustrating for 

658
00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:17,800
people, especially like female 
Founders watching someone like 

659
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,400
that continue to raise money, 
but you're right and I do think 

660
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,800
that he was a talented brand 
marketer. 

661
00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:25,900
Like, I don't counted. 
Yes, Don. 

662
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:29,800
Talented fundraiser, maybe, I 
mean, maybe a good salesman 

663
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,700
clearly, not good enough good 
considering that, you know, 

664
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:33,900
their business. 
But in a different role could be

665
00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:36,400
successful thing. 
It's the not good enough that 

666
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,000
makes it that clearly was. 
The flaw here. 

667
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,800
It's like he was a good 
fundraiser, but not a good 

668
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,500
enough fundraiser. 
He was good at promoting himself

669
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:45,900
and making a big, but he wasn't 
that big because not that many 

670
00:32:45,900 --> 00:32:49,100
people knew who they were. 
You know, like didn't reach Adam

671
00:32:49,100 --> 00:32:51,800
Newman like levels, you know? 
He was big in Florida but not in

672
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,000
Miami. 
It was fucking Tampa, couldn't 

673
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,800
cook couldn't reach Adam Newman 
level. 

674
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,700
As though if the market had to 
change these last few months and

675
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:01,200
he continued to raise like 
that's the question because he 

676
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,700
did raise 125 million dollars. 
That's a lot of money. 

677
00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:06,300
It makes way more sense. 
We were I don't think this guy 

678
00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:09,900
this guy didn't go big enough. 
He's not, maybe you're right if 

679
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:13,200
he'd gotten there but he's not, 
he's not Parker he's not out of 

680
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,600
he's not I don't think he's 
getting the ice Australian but 

681
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,600
he's always really it's not 
there. 

682
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,400
He just seems like some of these
other people at least they were 

683
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,600
like really in it. 
You know, you want to come off 

684
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,200
like you were a lunatic but on a
huge impression, To scale battle

685
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,200
commence, the lunacy big enough.
You know, this seems sort of. 

686
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,600
So what does stripe look like 
after this. 

687
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,800
Obviously, I don't think there's
a reckoning that's going to 

688
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,000
happen in stripe, put out a 
report on its super high level 

689
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:44,200
financials and said that in 
2021, the total payment value 

690
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,700
over his platform was six 
hundred, forty billion dollars 

691
00:33:47,700 --> 00:33:54,100
up, 60 percent year over year by
comparison, add Yen, had five 

692
00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:58,800
hundred sixty 1 billion, In up 
70%, add un's, valuation is 

693
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,900
about fifty seven billion and 
down 25% year over year and 

694
00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:09,400
Stripes valuation is 95 billion 
and flat since basically March 

695
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,199
of twenty Twenty-One. 
This is she'll Mo not an 

696
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:15,900
investor seed investor. 
I hope I'm saying his name, 

697
00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:18,699
right, but credit to him for 
pulling the information 

698
00:34:18,699 --> 00:34:22,800
together, but yeah, so and 
stripe also said that document 

699
00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:27,900
that they didn't think 2022. 
Be necessarily as good as 2021 

700
00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:30,199
be. 
Some of what they saw was thanks

701
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:32,699
to the pandemic anyway. 
So those are just some fast 

702
00:34:32,699 --> 00:34:34,800
facts from their report, but 
yeah, Kate. 

703
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,699
I don't know. 
We have what is to follow up on 

704
00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:37,699
times. 
But, yeah, I mean, Kate, you've 

705
00:34:37,699 --> 00:34:39,900
done a really good job for a 
number of years. 

706
00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:42,100
I even back when I was at the 
information talking about 

707
00:34:42,100 --> 00:34:46,300
Stripes VC effort and their kind
of path towards disrupting, a 

708
00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:51,699
lot of, a lot of early stage 
investors and their their stripe

709
00:34:51,699 --> 00:34:53,500
is like when it comes to 
fintech, they're basically like 

710
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:55,800
the NSA, right? 
They they know everything. 

711
00:34:55,900 --> 00:34:57,800
That's going on. 
Which is another reason why it's

712
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,500
kind of incredible that fast 
went on as long as it did 

713
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:03,800
because they should have had 
very good Intel as to whether or

714
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,900
not this was being picked up. 
But anyway, I mean, like, what 

715
00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:08,800
what's, you know, what's your 
take on them at this point? 

716
00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:13,300
Well, on the DC side of things, 
I don't know, but I think that 

717
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,400
they are going to probably slow 
down a little bit. 

718
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,600
Well, for, of course, because of
the market, but I also think 

719
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:22,000
like I get this, this probably, 
this took a huge hit to the 

720
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,200
reputation. 
I think that they're probably 

721
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,400
quite embarrassed about it 
because they're Involved. 

722
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,500
I mean every headline it's like 
I mean from us like Strike Back 

723
00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:34,900
fast like they're just they're a
huge part of this story and also

724
00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:37,800
the two people who are really 
leading VC. 

725
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,700
There have left they left a year
ago hey that was Jordan Angeles 

726
00:35:42,700 --> 00:35:47,200
who went to Ribbit and Justin 
overdorf who went to light speed

727
00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:50,400
right and both now Partners at 
these firms, Jordan was the one 

728
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,500
on this steel was involved guess
who was on the deal had been 

729
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:56,500
there in that emanate apartment 
are Corp tempted, Parchment a 

730
00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:58,500
long time, our while longer than
Justin. 

731
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,300
So they're gone. 
So Maya, I can't, I don't know 

732
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:03,800
her last name, but she's now 
kind of filling that role in 

733
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,300
Cork Dev. 
I think she's interim. 

734
00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:07,400
They haven't really seem to 
build up that team. 

735
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:10,100
And I think in their absence, 
like they're just is in. 

736
00:36:10,300 --> 00:36:12,500
It's not as much of a priority, 
although I do think the 

737
00:36:12,500 --> 00:36:15,500
Collison's and will Gabe Rick, 
who's like their Chief product 

738
00:36:15,500 --> 00:36:17,400
officer? 
Do care a lot about investing in

739
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,000
are very interested in it, so I 
will be watching, I don't know 

740
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,300
how they're going to act, I 
don't know if they're going to 

741
00:36:22,308 --> 00:36:23,800
make a splash or just kind of 
chill. 

742
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,600
I think given everything 
happening in the market. 

743
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,000
They Probably are going to take 
a step back and maybe they'll 

744
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,400
focus more on Acquisitions 
because things are going to be 

745
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,300
real cheap. 
And we're going to be seeing at.

746
00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:35,400
So it's probably what I would 
expect for them and what about 

747
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,700
stripe the business? 
Or what's your view? 

748
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,300
Yeah that's a big question. 
I mean like it doesn't seem like

749
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:42,900
this is going to be the year for
them to go public. 

750
00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:45,000
I'm curious what you guys think 
but I still going to do it this 

751
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,300
year. 
It's got to be under the year. 

752
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,800
I probably looking more like 
2023 to me but like of course, 

753
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,300
employees are wanted to go 
public so bad. 

754
00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:56,200
How old is this company now? 
Like 12 12 years, 13, Ten. 

755
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,800
It's like a decade plus and it's
time but now they kind of missed

756
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,300
their Winter Camp was founded in
2010 toys. 

757
00:37:03,300 --> 00:37:05,500
Answer told ya. 
I mean do you guys what do you 

758
00:37:05,508 --> 00:37:07,900
think about their valuation? 
Like people ask me all the time 

759
00:37:07,900 --> 00:37:10,800
and for the longest time I felt 
like they were like I was 

760
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,700
expecting made raised at you 
know, a hundred fifty billion, 

761
00:37:12,700 --> 00:37:14,600
two hundred billion and they 
took me there were definitely 

762
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:19,100
private Market transactions in 
the mid, you know, hundred we 

763
00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:22,700
got 1450 range and you know, I 
had an interview with Chris 

764
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:26,300
sacca who's bought up a lot of 
stripe and he said that he'd 

765
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:29,600
gotten offers at 200 billion. 
It's not clear if that actually 

766
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,100
transact it or not but, you 
know, yeah, they got out. 

767
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:33,900
There is definitely a ton of 
appetite. 

768
00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:35,800
Yes. 
I mean, we don't really know, 

769
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,700
you know, the numbers, so it's 
hard. 

770
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,200
The public comps are hard. 
I mean, I think that's sort of 

771
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,800
didn point is just. 
There are companies that have 

772
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,700
gone public, that seem to be 
trading at worst multiples than 

773
00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:49,800
stripe. 
And the other point this 

774
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,800
investor made is that stripe has
more than 7,000 employees, 

775
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,600
whereas a d and has like 
Thousand employees. 

776
00:37:56,900 --> 00:38:01,700
So just on a sort of payment 
volume to employee basis, stripe

777
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:04,900
is clearly racking up the 
expenses. 

778
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,400
I think that there's a theme 
here to about over hiring like a

779
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,300
lot of the companies I've been 
covering that's been a key 

780
00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:12,300
issue. 
And like we saw with hopin that 

781
00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:14,900
was like a that was like the 
company for the last couple of 

782
00:38:14,908 --> 00:38:19,200
years and they cut I think 20% 
of staff and I I've heard like 

783
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,300
interest in Reading other 
reports that there are more 

784
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:23,800
layoffs likely to come. 
And I just think last year 

785
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:25,400
people made a really big 
mistake. 

786
00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:28,200
And beefing up their staffs just
way too much and hearing that. 

787
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,300
Maybe that's the case was right.
Maybe they need to also take a 

788
00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:33,400
haircut to the to that massive 
number and that's that's huge. 

789
00:38:33,500 --> 00:38:37,300
Well did they I mean was part of
that with stripe because they 

790
00:38:37,300 --> 00:38:40,500
were Staffing up for pandemic. 
Level transaction, volume 

791
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:42,500
increasing. 
I think you saw that being a big

792
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:45,200
driver of head. 
Count increases for businesses 

793
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,800
that had a tail one because like
I mean again sorry to bring up 

794
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,300
go puff again but like, you know
they hired a shitload of people 

795
00:38:52,300 --> 00:38:55,100
because ordering to your home 
was a big deal. 

796
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,800
During the pandemic. 
And you know, they had layoffs 

797
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,400
at you guys reported and that is
a result of needing to 

798
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,500
restructure both because, you 
know, we're not living in the 

799
00:39:04,500 --> 00:39:06,800
same environment. 
Now, where you need, you know, 

800
00:39:06,808 --> 00:39:09,500
the maybe the number of people 
to do that and there was maybe a

801
00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:12,800
mistaken bet on, you know, the 
continuation of the business. 

802
00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:15,000
Yeah, those are very different 
types of business. 

803
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,300
Yeah. 
It's really great. 

804
00:39:16,300 --> 00:39:18,400
It's not a great comp. 
Unfortunately, the one I've been

805
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,300
spending time talking to people 
about right? 

806
00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:21,600
But you're right. 
I see what you mean. 

807
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:22,700
It's like people did make that 
bet. 

808
00:39:22,700 --> 00:39:26,700
But like, in Hopkins case, I 
don't know if I understand fully

809
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:30,100
why they thought that the demand
for their service would would be

810
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:34,300
sustainable after people are no 
longer at home of the growth 

811
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:38,400
metrics are all predicated on 
pandemic Behavior, continuing 

812
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,500
right? 
As if even after the pandemic, 

813
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:45,300
then you have to sort of commit 
to that in strategy, even if it 

814
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:48,400
doesn't really make sense and 
it's a huge issue for cops. 

815
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:49,900
Right. 
I mean like that really was what

816
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:52,400
Screwed instacart when they 
really had their hearts set on 

817
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,400
going public. 
Was that right there, massive. 

818
00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:58,800
Honey. 
And, you know, 2021 was going to

819
00:39:58,808 --> 00:40:01,900
look awful and you're going to 
go, you know, to Market with an 

820
00:40:01,900 --> 00:40:03,400
S one. 
That was like, yeah. 

821
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,900
So we're flat but were, you 
know, at best but we're going to

822
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:09,800
command, you know, growth 
multiple on. 

823
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,800
What's basically, you know, a 
not great Merchant delivery 

824
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,000
business and so, yeah, I think 
for any company that had a huge 

825
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,700
tail, when going public at this 
environment is just such a bad 

826
00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:21,900
idea. 
Macro macro factors, 

827
00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:24,900
notwithstanding, you know what, 
it reminds me also Kate like the

828
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:27,100
stripe. 
Raishin and I actually, I defer 

829
00:40:27,100 --> 00:40:29,200
to Eric and Katie on this 
because you guys actually cover 

830
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,800
the company, but reminds me of 
Airbnb near like the final 

831
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,900
stages of being a private 
company where they really wanted

832
00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:36,500
to hold out for as long as they 
could. 

833
00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:39,800
But employees were so antsy, I 
do think it's similar. 

834
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,900
Yeah, I think that's the biggest
easy to compare to that moment. 

835
00:40:42,900 --> 00:40:45,600
There was like a lot of 
reporting in the lead-up to are 

836
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,700
babies IPO. 
And I like there hasn't really 

837
00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:50,200
been actually that much 
reporting on how stripe 

838
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,600
employees are failing. 
It's something I've liked on my 

839
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,700
to-do list, I haven't gotten to 
but I know it. 

840
00:40:54,700 --> 00:40:56,900
Well, it's always I always I'm 
sure you feel the same way. 

841
00:40:56,900 --> 00:41:01,000
It's like I should write more 
about stripe but it's like is it

842
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,700
that interesting of a story like
everybody else? 

843
00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:07,400
Typical cautious. 
It's harder right? 

844
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,300
Right. 
And they're just, has it been 

845
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:11,100
that narrative that has been 
that interesting? 

846
00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:13,900
I mean, like the colosseum's are
just like picture-perfect, like 

847
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:15,300
again like Silicon Valley's 
darling. 

848
00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:17,600
So it's like, I don't know, 
hasn't been as compelling 

849
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,100
diving. 
I mean, like, the Airbnb 

850
00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:20,700
Founders. 
They seem a little, like, 

851
00:41:20,700 --> 00:41:25,300
Precious about their brand. 
I don't, but they're good at it.

852
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,700
I mean, they're really good guy 
and he's more reporting, though.

853
00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:29,600
It does. 
I think like, given the given 

854
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,300
its size, I mean, it's 7,000 
people. 

855
00:41:31,300 --> 00:41:32,500
It's a hundred billion dollar 
company. 

856
00:41:32,500 --> 00:41:34,000
Definitely is a Silicon Valley 
story. 

857
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,900
It's it just I wish I wish there
were people who could smell more

858
00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:38,700
time on it. 
What has striped done to relieve

859
00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:41,500
some of that pressure because I 
feel like, you know, palantir 

860
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,400
Airbnb. 
Different companies have done 

861
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,600
more or less to give employees 
secondary. 

862
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,600
So yeah, exactly. 
It's like has stripe done. 

863
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,800
Secondary is how they found ways
to obtain. 

864
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:55,300
I'm sure that they have. 
Yeah, I'm sure. 

865
00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:58,300
Done many. 
They've I'm sure they've done 

866
00:41:58,300 --> 00:42:01,900
many trenches of secondary sales
to they've had to have re like, 

867
00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:03,200
I named both die. 
I think. 

868
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:04,800
Important. 
All these companies are doing 

869
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,400
secondary. 
Yeah, I mean, it's a big again, 

870
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,500
another topic always, worth more
reporting. 

871
00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:13,800
You know, I using their these 
firms that pursue secondary 

872
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,300
strategies, where they have a 
big information advantage over 

873
00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:18,500
employees. 
Employees are often the ones 

874
00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:22,400
getting the worst deal on these 
secondary sales. 

875
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,600
But then they have the least 
control over when the company 

876
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,200
actually goes public. 
Alec so they need they need the 

877
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,200
money. 
So I do think. 

878
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,600
Yeah, the push back on some of 
these companies when you forever

879
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,800
to go public, is that they're 
hurting their own employees. 

880
00:42:37,700 --> 00:42:39,800
And I feel like they don't get 
that much criticism for. 

881
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:41,300
Yeah. 
But I said go like I've strived 

882
00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:43,200
goes now, you know, it's a bad 
outcome for everyone. 

883
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:45,000
Yeah, that might be an 
interesting way to look at a 

884
00:42:45,008 --> 00:42:47,800
company like stripe because it's
not consumer-facing but to look 

885
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,800
at it through the employees, 
this a long time ago, I did a 

886
00:42:50,808 --> 00:42:56,600
story on a company that had 
basically failed and So you 

887
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,600
know, looking what happened the 
employees there was really a 

888
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,700
dramatic, but I think I would 
love to read a story about a 

889
00:43:01,707 --> 00:43:04,000
company like stripe where the 
company is not failing, but the 

890
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,300
employees are still not having 
good outcomes. 

891
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,400
Yeah. 
And like the flip side of it is 

892
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,900
also actually just had a story 
this morning about doordash 

893
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:16,000
which, you know their stock has 
been pretty bad over the last 

894
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,800
six months if they had a pretty 
good, you know, first half of 

895
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,500
2021 and they really they 
they're down like more than half

896
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:25,300
from their Peak and they hired a
lot during the pandemic and 

897
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,300
They're not having to offer, 
like, refresher Equity, grants 

898
00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:31,900
to employees, because so many of
them were compensated, you know,

899
00:43:31,900 --> 00:43:35,600
their compensation comes through
stock and that stock is now not 

900
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,500
valuable as much as it was. 
And so it, you know, it's a I 

901
00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:42,200
almost feel somewhat for the 
companies here. 

902
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,700
That's like, yeah, sure. 
We can go public, but that's not

903
00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:46,700
going to solve the problems. 
I mean, give some liquidity to 

904
00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:48,700
early shareholders so you'll get
returns there. 

905
00:43:48,700 --> 00:43:51,400
But if you staffed up a ton 
during, you know like stripe 

906
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,000
maybe did. 
And if they were to go public 

907
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,300
and their valuation is down, you
could suddenly Have you? 

908
00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:58,800
No, not particularly valuable, 
you know, Equity. 

909
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,100
So craziest thing about startup 
employees, is also always been 

910
00:44:03,100 --> 00:44:06,200
that there's a set that seems to
pick companies based on High 

911
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,800
valuations when they should pick
them based on low valuable. 

912
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,400
They don't, well, they don't 
know. 

913
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,100
And that's like the big issues. 
Like, nobody knows how Equity 

914
00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:18,000
works, really, and companies do 
such a terrible job of educating

915
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,900
employees about exercising and 
options and what Equity is and, 

916
00:44:21,900 --> 00:44:24,100
like, valuations and it's 
frustrating. 

917
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:27,000
I think like, for those As 
employees and like their taxes 

918
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,300
and all these things that like 
these companies often times even

919
00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:33,300
like the executives are for a 
start-up, like a sort of 

920
00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:35,900
executive might not even be that
educated on and then gets a big 

921
00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:38,800
problem that I'm surprised 
hasn't that's what like Carta is

922
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,300
doing it. 
Like they're trying to like sell

923
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:43,100
that education to these 
companies. 

924
00:44:43,100 --> 00:44:46,100
So I think that's a good thing 
because it, it seems like a 

925
00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:49,100
problem that there's not more 
knowledge in the ecosystem about

926
00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:51,800
that, but they're happy to Hype 
it up when times are good. 

927
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,900
Right. 
I remember years ago, read 

928
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,700
Albert Gotti at the Sandro I 
think fuck I'm pretty sure he 

929
00:44:57,700 --> 00:44:59,300
wrote the story. 
I remember talking to him about 

930
00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:01,500
it. 
How palantir used to have like a

931
00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:05,400
fun interactive expel, Excel 
spreadsheet for palantir 

932
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,100
employees to sort of show like 
how much their Equity be worth 

933
00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:10,400
if they joined at certain times,
you can kind of, like, put a 

934
00:45:10,408 --> 00:45:13,400
little slider on to see how much
your, your net worth would be. 

935
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,800
So they're totally happy to 
gamify it when times are good 

936
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:18,800
and uses an attraction. 
But yeah. 

937
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,200
Like the nitty-gritty of flat or
a Down Round or like you're 

938
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,000
saying the taxes. 
It's like, I don't know you guys

939
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,300
for you. 
Get into that and even like, in 

940
00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:30,300
fast case, I saw an offer 
letter, you know, that went 

941
00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:34,400
through total comp and the 
trajectory that they like the 

942
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:35,900
projections that they provided 
were. 

943
00:45:35,900 --> 00:45:38,900
So were somewhat silly. 
Like I said, in the story the 

944
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:42,000
highest was a 12 billion dollar 
valuation and this is like a 500

945
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,200
million dollar startup. 
That was that was struggling 

946
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:45,600
than this is a September offer 
letter. 

947
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,900
Like you know it was a different
period, maybe they didn't know 

948
00:45:47,908 --> 00:45:50,000
what was coming but like they 
knew their revenue. 

949
00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:52,900
So it's just those are the kind 
of numbers that employees are 

950
00:45:52,900 --> 00:45:55,300
given and they're like oh shit 
like my equity. 

951
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,800
Going to be worth that much like
when you guys had to 12 billion 

952
00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,300
dollar valuation, like that's 
awesome. 

953
00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:02,600
Yeah, let's think for the car 
last question here. 

954
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,800
Like last segment here. 
Like we really in a downturn. 

955
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,000
Okay, like is this actually 
something that you think is 

956
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,100
going to persist for any I mean,
I was just talking to people 

957
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,600
about a company the other day 
and they were sort of saying 

958
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,000
like, I looks like the text out 
you NASDAQ is back. 

959
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:21,600
You know what maybe seem like a 
completely postponed IPO for the

960
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,400
rest of the year can now be like
a cue for thing and and that 

961
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,500
sort of stuff, you know. 
It starts early in the private 

962
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:28,600
market. 
So like what's your sense 

963
00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:33,200
actually as this, you know 
record this on April 8 22, like 

964
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,800
where are we? 
Yeah, I mean it's six months now

965
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,400
of me just being like it's an 
uncertain period I don't know 

966
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,800
right but I think what I'm 
realizing is like regardless of 

967
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,100
how the stock market's behaving 
regardless of other 

968
00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:46,500
macroeconomic conditions. 
I think investors Venture 

969
00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:49,200
capitalists have decided 
collectively that like, they 

970
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,400
don't want to do those 
high-priced valuation Deals. 

971
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,500
They don't want to work at that 
pace that they've been working 

972
00:46:53,500 --> 00:46:55,800
at and they are all kind of 
taking a Back. 

973
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,800
And if they're all taking a 
setback like startups, have a 

974
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,700
harder time raising you know, so
domino effect on the startup 

975
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,100
Market in particular. 
So yeah, I think we're entering 

976
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:05,800
I don't know how. 
I don't want to be the person to

977
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:07,900
say it's a downturn, I don't 
know, but I think we're 

978
00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:09,900
certainly entering into a much 
slower period. 

979
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:13,700
I think on the macro economic 
side, it supports you because as

980
00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:16,200
interest rates are rising, I'm 
not going to say that it will 

981
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,500
cause a downturn, but if 
interest rates go up, it just 

982
00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:21,500
makes other Investments that 
have been really low return, for

983
00:47:21,700 --> 00:47:25,400
basically, since 2009 makes them
more attractive because I'll 

984
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,100
yield more as interest rates go 
up. 

985
00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:30,300
So part of the reason why so 
much money was going into 

986
00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:33,400
venture capital and into private
equity, in general, was because 

987
00:47:33,500 --> 00:47:36,400
the yields of the Investments 
were generally so much higher 

988
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,000
it. 
Seems silly not to put the money

989
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,700
there but if you can get more on
a more traditional investment. 

990
00:47:41,700 --> 00:47:45,800
Now, you'll just start 
allocating big, you know, big 

991
00:47:46,700 --> 00:47:49,700
endowments will start allocating
money differently. 

992
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,200
So, I mean, is that a downturn 
or is that just people saying we

993
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,200
can make more money with less 
bullshit? 

994
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,200
Are we gonna make reasonable 
money? 

995
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,200
You've got somebody who agrees 
with you. 

996
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,700
You may watch Peter teal, talk 
at a, the Bitcoin conference, I 

997
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:10,000
watched the you to know but I'm 
going to say that I'm surprised 

998
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,000
like I've listened to Peter tail
Taco. 

999
00:48:12,100 --> 00:48:14,500
Like a lot of his speeches 
especially like his Rene Girard 

1000
00:48:14,500 --> 00:48:17,200
speeches and stuff. 
The number of times that I'm an 

1001
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,100
agreement with Peter teal is not
zero. 

1002
00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:21,500
I'll put it that way, but just 
make me think. 

1003
00:48:21,500 --> 00:48:28,200
Like I mean he was an amazingly 
Tie company argument for 

1004
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,700
somebody who makes a bunch of 
his money from a VC first, but 

1005
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:35,700
it sounds like a contrarian Tay.
I know, I mean, I thought I was 

1006
00:48:35,700 --> 00:48:38,700
dumb, I thought I was dumb, but 
he was basically arguing, you 

1007
00:48:38,700 --> 00:48:42,600
know, that gold and equities 
used to be sort of similarly 

1008
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,200
valued in, you know, Collective 
Collective equities and gold in 

1009
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,700
the 70s. 
And that now, we've seen just 

1010
00:48:48,700 --> 00:48:50,700
like an explosion of equity 
values. 

1011
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,600
And is it that crazy to think 
that the value of Bitcoin should

1012
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,000
be more? 
Equivalent to the total value of

1013
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,200
equity is. 
I don't know that. 

1014
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,200
It seems like it and then then 
he got all the headlines by 

1015
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,600
saying that, you know, the 
enemies of Bitcoin are, you 

1016
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:11,100
know, Warren Buffett, Jamie 
dimon and Larry Fink at 

1017
00:49:11,100 --> 00:49:13,900
BlackRock. 
And then he then teal was like, 

1018
00:49:13,900 --> 00:49:19,500
you know, ESG equals CCP, you 
know, it was a very sort of 

1019
00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:31,500
trumpian sort of argument as 
Other the smartest point of his 

1020
00:49:31,500 --> 00:49:35,400
thing was that he was arguing 
that, you know, Bitcoin, we had 

1021
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:40,300
basically been a canary for, you
know, inflation and that if 

1022
00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:43,100
inflation continues, that that 
will be a strike against 

1023
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,600
equities, and we'll people moved
to sort of more old-school 

1024
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,700
stores a value like old or as he
would sort of prefer Bitcoin. 

1025
00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:54,300
Yeah, I was being sort of cute 
that you were totally agreeing 

1026
00:49:54,300 --> 00:49:56,000
with. 
And I think I have to say it's a

1027
00:49:56,008 --> 00:49:58,600
correction, right? 
How NVC, that's probably like. 

1028
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,100
Is that safe for them saying, 
it's a full downturn. 

1029
00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:04,000
I think it's a correction to 
like what happened last year and

1030
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:05,600
just like the insanity and yeah,
you're right. 

1031
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:10,100
Like the it is going to be much 
more difficult for second tier 

1032
00:50:10,100 --> 00:50:13,000
or credit like the crappier VC 
funds to fund raise and that's 

1033
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,400
going to, you know, of course, 
that a plays a huge role. 

1034
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,000
So I think we'll start to see 
more evidence of that. 

1035
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,600
Like so far this year, we've 
just seen like, record 

1036
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,700
fundraising because it's all a 
steer, kind of right tumbling 

1037
00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:25,500
over into early this year, but 
soon, we'll get into Like the 

1038
00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:28,700
meat of this actual year and 
we'll start to see the struggles

1039
00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:30,700
a little bit, but that's, you 
know, that's the funny thing 

1040
00:50:30,700 --> 00:50:32,500
here though. 
Is that you do you still see 

1041
00:50:32,500 --> 00:50:34,900
these crazy rounds that will 
come up from time to time and 

1042
00:50:34,900 --> 00:50:35,500
everyone's like? 
Yeah. 

1043
00:50:35,500 --> 00:50:38,900
But that was a deal that really 
is more of a 2021 deal, you 

1044
00:50:38,908 --> 00:50:40,200
know? 
It's really just trickling over 

1045
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,500
carrying over from 2022. 
It's like all right you know we 

1046
00:50:42,500 --> 00:50:45,700
are four months into this year 
don't announce that stuff for a 

1047
00:50:45,707 --> 00:50:47,900
long time. 
Yeah fair enough. 

1048
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,300
So that's why I mean you know 
you have a lot of deals where 

1049
00:50:50,300 --> 00:50:53,700
it's like the hands were they 
shook hands and October or like 

1050
00:50:53,700 --> 00:50:58,400
Java and they They wait to 
announce it so you don't need to

1051
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,800
ask when it was done as you and 
your colleague Berber reported, 

1052
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,100
you know, you've seen companies 
like tiger clawing back and 

1053
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:08,400
really in elegant ways on some 
of the deals that they had 

1054
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,000
strong. 
Honestly, that was a great 

1055
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,900
story, but I think less and some
of the VCS would fear Monger 

1056
00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:15,700
over. 
It doesn't feel like there's 

1057
00:51:15,700 --> 00:51:19,400
been this like, wholesale claw 
back, or do you. 

1058
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,600
You think they're just like a 
ton of unreported cases? 

1059
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,400
I mean, that is what like a free
pricing. 

1060
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,700
Yeah. 
Maybe he's ever maximum points 

1061
00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:30,300
that same one. 
The Forbes reported, I feel like

1062
00:51:30,300 --> 00:51:31,800
that company comes up all the 
time. 

1063
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,200
Oh, DBT. 
Yeah. 

1064
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,500
Yes, I think the repricing was 
like, a, six-week season, not 

1065
00:51:37,500 --> 00:51:41,300
occurred, like, in January 
February, after like those 21, 

1066
00:51:41,300 --> 00:51:44,100
you know, really close to 20 21,
so like the deals kind of were 

1067
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:46,100
negotiated around when the 
markets really changed. 

1068
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,300
So I don't think it's happening 
now and I agree with you. 

1069
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:51,500
I don't I mean I was like I just
went like weeks trying to find 

1070
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:53,800
as many examples as I could and 
kind of continued for a while. 

1071
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,700
And I don't think there's a ton 
that we Know about because like 

1072
00:51:56,700 --> 00:51:59,100
those are often the ones that 
get to us because people want to

1073
00:51:59,100 --> 00:52:02,400
like shit on those investors 
that people want to show tiger 

1074
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,200
is like bad. 
Like this is why you shouldn't 

1075
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,500
take their money. 
There's so much of a source 

1076
00:52:06,500 --> 00:52:08,700
interest in. 
Showing that the fact that more 

1077
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:11,200
has emerged to me, is I like 
agree. 

1078
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,800
I think that probably shows 
because I mean most investors 

1079
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,100
know that that is like suicide 
because if you're if you start 

1080
00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:19,600
doing that like that gets around
so quick and then people don't 

1081
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,500
want to work with you. 
So I don't think that that a 

1082
00:52:21,500 --> 00:52:24,800
still in a founder market. 
Even if like even if things are 

1083
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,000
changing, the Dynamics are 
changing Changing like there are

1084
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,600
still you know, a finite number 
of like these great companies. 

1085
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,200
And there are so many investors 
and there's like what like three

1086
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,700
hundred and fifty billion 
dollars or thing raised in 2021,

1087
00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:37,700
just like insane amount of 
money. 

1088
00:52:37,700 --> 00:52:40,800
So I don't think this is much 
too, that sometimes I feel like 

1089
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,900
they're more exciting investors 
than companies. 

1090
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:46,600
It's like it's more fun to talk 
about some of the investors. 

1091
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,200
I'm like, what are the companies
that are like, so exciting to 

1092
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,300
talk about? 
There's so much politics in the 

1093
00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:53,500
ventures and I think that is 
interesting to. 

1094
00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:55,800
So, like, yeah, I think it can 
be more compelling. 

1095
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,200
To dive into like their 
Dynamics, then the founders. 

1096
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,300
I agree. 
Sounds to me, like, we're all 

1097
00:53:01,300 --> 00:53:03,100
getting ourselves ready for a 
Dom Holland. 

1098
00:53:03,100 --> 00:53:06,000
Come back, maybe maybe in the 
next week or two. 

1099
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,800
So when that happens I'll be 
very excited to have you back on

1100
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:12,400
here. 
Kate definitely hopefully 

1101
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,200
feeling better. 
And look at least we're all 

1102
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:15,300
doing better than fast. 
Can we? 

1103
00:53:15,308 --> 00:53:19,300
At least say that. 
Thanks so much for coming. 

1104
00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:20,500
Yeah, thanks so much for 
joining. 

1105
00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:21,700
This was fun. 
Thank you. 

1106
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:36,400
Yeah, thanks for having me. 
Goodbye. 

1107
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,000
Goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 

1108
00:53:39,100 --> 00:53:36,400
Goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1109
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,000
Goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 

1110
00:53:39,100 --> 00:53:39,700
Goodbye.