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All right. 
Welcome everybody to your weekly

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newcomer, Tom Doton here joined 
by Madeline Renbarger, Eric 

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newcomer and our guest this 
week, Will Hurd. 

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Will is a former CIA officer, 
three term US Congressman from 

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Texas, author of the book 
American Reboot and now CSO at a

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defense tech startup Chaos 
Industries, which we'll get into

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later in the episode. 
Will welcome. 

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And I think you are Eric, 
correct me here is Will, the 

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first politician we've had on 
the show. 

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That's a good question. 
Wow. 

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Maybe that's I'm gonna say the 
answer is yes, OK. 

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Yeah, this. 
He's the first politician we've 

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ever had. 
It's a great honor. 

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Honor of me, Oh my God, 
politician on, you know, midst. 

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What a delight. 
It's amazing. 

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I didn't know. 
OK, this. 

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You know, we're only 
entrepreneurs usually. 

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Glad. 
So and I mentioned will you are 

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three term from Texas. 
What was your district again? 

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You're like a border district. 
I was, so it was. 

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It was majority of of my 
hometown of San Antonio where I 

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live now, all the way to El Paso
down to the border. 

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So it's 29 counties, 2 time 
zones. 

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It took 10 1/2 hours to drive 
across it at 80 miles an hour, 

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right, which was the speed limit
in most of the district. 

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It was the largest border 
district in the United States. 

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I roughly I had about 1/3 of the
US Mexico border. 

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Congressman, a fun fact we 
discussed, you know, a little 

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bit before recording is you were
actually the congressman for my 

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mom's hometown, where my uncle 
currently lives and where my 

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grandparents are from in Uvalde,
TX. 

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My whole mom's, the family is 
your district basically. 

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I hope they came to, I hope they
came to one of my DC to DQS, 

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right? 
I would hold, I would hold town 

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halls and all the Dairy Queens 
and I hope they weren't part of 

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the group that would protest of 
the DC to DQS. 

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So you know you'll have to. 
I highly doubt they were the 

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protesters. 
If you're ever in Evaldi then 

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they maybe stop by. 
Eric, you've been to you've been

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to Texas before. 
My high school best friend lives

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in Midland, TX so I made the 
trip out there with him. 

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I've obviously been to Austin 
for South by Southwest a couple 

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times. 
I'm not sure I've ever been to 

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San Antonio. 
Midland was not in the District,

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but all the counties around it. 
So I would fly in and out of San

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Antonio back in DC-2 weekends a 
month. 

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One weekend I'd fly into Midland
and hit, you know, hit those 

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parts of the district. 
And then one time in El Paso, 

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you know, it was because it was 
so it was so big. 

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I had those three things and and
let's do, let's dispense with 

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the congressman. 
It's Will. 

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I don't like being in Congress. 
I definitely don't like being 

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called it now that I'm out. 
So please just call me. 

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Call me Will. 
Well, it's a good time to be out

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of Congress now, Will, I saw 
like the approval ratings 

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recently for Congress for like 
in the low 20s. 

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So I can see why you want to not
be tagged with that that moniker

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now. 
Congressman. 

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So I ran, I left the CIA to run 
for Congress, right? 

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And, and I lost that first race 
by only 700 votes. 

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I don't want to tell that story.
Oh my God, Yeah. 

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How many votes were there? 
Well, out of two out of I think 

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it was like 60,000. 
Like I said, Oh my God, I don't 

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want. 
To tell that story anymore. 

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Yeah, I mean my IT. 
Hurts. 

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My understanding of Texas 
politics from reading the Robert

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Carroll LBJ books is that you 
can kind of fix those things, 

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you know? 
So like 700 votes doesn't seem 

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like that much. 
So, so box 13 and all those 

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districts, so, so LBJ, this is, 
this is legit. 

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You know, it's been documented. 
LBJ became a senator because by 

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I want to say it was like 1821 
votes and they basically stuffed

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the ballot boxes with people 
that had, had died. 

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And the guy that ran this whole 
operation was called the Duke of

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Duvall and some of the areas 
that he he was responsible for 

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what some of the places that I 
represented. 

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So it's this weird connection 
between all that. 

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And one of my favorite books is 
about this. 

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It's called Texas Mutiny. 
And it goes into this whole 

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thing about the ballot stuffing 
and how it happened when they 

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found out. 
It's it's a fascinating part of 

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Texas law. 
But you've been out for four 

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years now and, you know, been a 
civilian in the, in the, in the 

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tech world, in the, in the 
private world. 

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I mean, you prefer it, right? 
I understand there's clowns on 

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both sides, but like you feel 
you feel like you're it's. 

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Got to be fun to be a 
congressman. 

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I don't know, really. 
I'm surprised. 

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You prefer Which would you? 
Yeah. 

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Which do. 
You what do you prefer? 

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Of all the jobs I've ever held, 
from being a working in a 

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computer lab at Texas AM 
University to the CIA, to 

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building a cyber security 
company to Congress investment 

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banking and now being at a tech 
startup, being in Congress was 

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by far the worst. 
But I will say this though, I 

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enjoyed my time, right? 
Like I got 21 piece of 

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legislation signed the law in 
six years, which is a lot. 

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Most people don't do that much 
in in two decades. 

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I was able to do it in six 
years, but the thing that most 

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people don't realize is you help
a lot of people. 

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So, so for example, I have I 
have horrible allergies and I 

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went to an allergist this week 
and he comes up to me, he goes, 

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hey, will, I'd be getting 
trouble if I don't tell you 

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this, but my wife wanted me to 
thank you because he was he was 

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in the military. 
He got posted to Iraq. 

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They got moved from I think 
Dallas to San Antonio. 

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All his personal effects got 
lost. 

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He had to find it. 
DoD was saying he should pay for

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it out of his own money. 
Someone told him to be like call

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Congressman Hurd's office and we
were able to sort it out, right.

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And so, so like the ability to 
help people in the district that

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are getting screwed by the 
federal government, whether it's

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on Social Security or helping 
veterans with veterans issues, 

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you name it. 
Like that part was awesome. 

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And, and these are people, 
you're never going to know their

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names, but those, those are the,
that's the stuff that I'm most 

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proud of. 
And I miss, I miss that part. 

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I miss helping out, you know, my
community, but you know, the 

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back and forth and look, I saw I
like solving problems. 

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And my district was 5050. 
So even if I had every 

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Republican to vote for me, I, I 
still couldn't win. 

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And so to me, the ability to get
big things done was what I liked

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about being in Congress. 
And that's getting harder and 

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harder. 
I mean, I can't we can't talk 

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about sort of Texas and 
bipartisanship and listen, not 

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talk about the the sort of 
gerrymandering issue right now. 

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It looms so large. 
You're obviously what the 

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Republican, the Democrats like. 
What is your view on sort of 

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what Texas is doing? 
And then whether like California

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should fire back or like, I 
don't know. 

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Yeah. 
How do you how do you look at 

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this situation? 
I've always said redistricting 

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and drawing lines is about 
incumbent protection. 

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It always has been. 
Right now, I don't, I don't 

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agree with that. 
So Illinois did this, right? 

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They redrew the lines and, and 
and screwed Adam Kinzinger. 

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Let's look at a place like 
Maryland. 

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Maryland had a Republican 
governor for a number of years, 

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but no Republicans in Maryland 
from Texas just redrew the lines

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to try to get five more 
additional seats. 

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Gavin Newsom is going to attempt
to do the same thing. 

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It seems like. 
Look, he's going to have he's 

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probably going to spend as much 
political capital as he needs in

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order to match what Texas is 
doing. 

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So, so, so saying one group is 
bigger or better or worse than 

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the other. 
Republicans and Democrats across

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the country have been doing this
for a really long time now. 

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If I had a, if I had a magic 
wand, I would say no district 

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can be more than +6 in either 
direction plus 6R or plus 6D. 

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You know, a, a 56% Republican 
district or a 56% Democratic 

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district, in my opinion, is a 
jump ball. 

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And so that forces people to 
have real conversations in 

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November and that causes people 
to have to get problem solvers, 

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not bomb throwers. 
And, and right now, the number 

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of contested districts where the
people voted for one, for the 

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person, for the president from 
one party and the congressman 

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from another party, it's the 
lowest has ever been in the 

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history of Congress. 
Was that ratio you gave the 56% 

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or is that about what your 
former district? 

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Was it was mine was a little bit
worse, right? 

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But because, but but but but +6 
is something is something. 

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I think the real problem that we
often have in politics is single

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party rule, right? 
And, and so, so California and 

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Texas are the converse of one 
another when it comes to when it

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comes to single party, when it 
comes to single party rule. 

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And, and that's the part that 
that is that's crazy to me. 

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And also not enough people vote 
in primaries at the number of 

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people that vote in, on average 
in, in a Congressional District 

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is like 60,000 people. 
That's crazy. 

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That means like 30,000 people 
get to the side. 

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Majority of people that go in go
into districts. 

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So that would be my one 
suggestion. 

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Everybody, regardless of what 
your political leanings are, if 

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you vote in primaries, that's 
where a lot of things get 

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decided. 
There's usually better 

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candidates that may not have the
financial resources or the name 

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ID. 
But my PSA for today is go 

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figure out when your primary is 
and. 

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I mean, I mentioned it kind of 
in, in joking earlier, but like,

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you look at the approval rate of
Congress right now, I imagine 

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part of the reason you wanted to
leave was that you maybe saw 

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where things were going. 
And some who is a Republican 

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that's liked by Democrats 
doesn't really have a future in 

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the Republican Party. 
But that's sort of 

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gerrymandering and having these 
wildly, you know, skewed 

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districts. 
Do you think that's part of the 

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reason that overall, there's 
just such a deeply cynical and 

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negative view of Congress from 
both sides right now? 

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I think that is part of it 
because you have elected 

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officials that are only speaking
to a very small percentage of 

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the population. 
So if, if each Congressional 

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District is, is roughly, let's 
call it 800,000 voters, right? 

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If you take 30,000 voters, the 
people that get them elected in 

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the primary, that's like 3%, if 
my math is right, 3 or 4% of the

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entire population. 
And so, so you have an elected 

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official that is speaking to a 
very narrow group of people and 

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ignoring everybody else. 
And that is what's creating some

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of this these problems. 
What do you think about these 

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celebrity kind of Congress 
people that that have jumped up 

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in the past couple of years to 
become these social media stars?

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You've you've got your your 
Nancy Maces or your Marjorie 

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Taylor Greens. 
People who exist largely as kind

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of quasi firebrand political 
celebrities that matter more to 

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people probably be outside their
district and the ones you know 

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within it sure seems like a more
reasonable phenomenon to get. 

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Elected in in their districts, 
right and and I'm not I'm never 

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going to criticize somebody for 
building a large social media 

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following. 
You know, if, if you don't know 

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how to leverage that tool to 
connect with people and then 

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you're not going to be able to 
get elected. 

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What I would like to see is more
people focusing on addressing 

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some of these unique challenges 
that we're faced with today. 

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My concern has always been that 
the United States of America 

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staying the most powerful, most 
important economy in the world 

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is not a fait accompli. 
And there's a number of issues 

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from from federal level issues 
down to down to local issues 

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that have to be addressed. 
And so being able to talk and 

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like try to solve some of these 
very complicated issues requires

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people that are willing to roll 
up their sleeves and and solve 

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problems. 
And so look, my social media, 

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the footprint would be 10X what 
it is if I said, if I said crazy

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things, right? 
That's just, that's just not me.

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And, and, and so, so, yeah, I, I
would say you would see that, 

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that the numbers of people that 
appreciate their member of 

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00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:26,200
Congress higher if people saw 
problems. 

226
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,040
And look, my, my, my time in 
Congress was perfect example of 

227
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,440
that. 
I had a great name ID amongst 

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00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,920
all brands of, of folks, partly 
because I tried to solve 

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00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,720
problems, right. 
Look, I was the cybersecurity 

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00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,480
guy in Congress. 
I was the IT procurement guy in 

231
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,480
Congress. 
Like nobody's ever when they've 

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00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,000
gotten the pulse or be like, 
what are your top 10 most 

233
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,240
important issues in Congress? 
Nobody ever says cybersecurity, 

234
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,720
right, right, or, or IT 
procurement. 

235
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,720
But I was able to work on these 
real challenging problems and 

236
00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,040
then articulated why a farmer in
West TX should care about 

237
00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,280
something like that. 
And and so. 

238
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:05,080
It's see that has nothing to do 
with the Cracker Barrel logo. 

239
00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,960
Do they still sell audio books 
at Cracker Barrel? 

240
00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,640
That's my question And you know,
I don't. 

241
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,760
Know did they ever. 
Oh yeah, I yeah. 

242
00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,080
I went to actually the first 
Cracker Barrel I went to in my 

243
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,440
life was in your district, was 
in San Antonio. 

244
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,760
I went back a few months ago 
when I was in Florida and this 

245
00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,240
doesn't get talked enough about 
in my opinion, in the discourse.

246
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,280
Terrible food. 
Just just bad food. 

247
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,000
You're not running for office, 
Yeah. 

248
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,360
I guess send your comment to 
Tom. 

249
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,760
We I'm happy to do a whole 
Cracker Barrel food episode. 

250
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,360
This is. 
This is our strategy. 

251
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,440
Bait. 
You know, elected officials, 

252
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,280
former elected officials into 
shitting. 

253
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,000
You know, mainstays of America. 
Yeah, it's no. 

254
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,000
What a federation. 
But it's. 

255
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,840
Exactly that more people know 
what Cracker Barrel is. 

256
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,000
I didn't realize that it was so 
well known. 

257
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,320
But Madeline, to your point, 
when I left, so I graduated 

258
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university a Texas A&M in in May
of 2000 and in October of 2000, 

259
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,720
I drove my car to Washington, DC
and this was, this was literally

260
00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,800
the day of the USS Cole bombing.
This was the USS Cole, which is 

261
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,440
a destroyer in the US Navy off 
the coast of Aden in Yemen. 

262
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,600
And this was kind of my 
introduction ultimately to Al 

263
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,840
Qaeda. 
And I was renting Clive Cussler 

264
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,320
books at Cracker Barrel, 
listening to them on the way on 

265
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,720
the way to Washington, DC So 
that that always did the. 

266
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,760
Puzzles. 
The puzzles are what I remember 

267
00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,880
from Cracker Barrel. 
I think I went more as a kid so 

268
00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,960
it'd be all the weird like metal
things you have to unwind. 

269
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:33,560
Yeah, I. 
Remember the anyway. 

270
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,840
Why? 
Why are we having our first 

271
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,760
former politician on the 
podcast? 

272
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,280
Because Silicon Valley has 
identified a gold rush in 

273
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,240
Washington and and literally the
potential for a golden Dome. 

274
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,400
Obviously we've written a lot in
newcomer about Silicon Valley 

275
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,360
chasing sort of the defense tech
opportunity. 

276
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,760
You're working at chaos sort of 
fast climbing defense tech 

277
00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:58,640
startup. 
You know, there are lots of them

278
00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:03,440
obviously like and roll loom 
super large Palantir sort of I 

279
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,560
guess the OG in defense tech. 
I mean, just to start us off, 

280
00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:12,080
has the Trump administration 
been a boon for Silicon Valley's

281
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,720
effort to get into defense tech 
or how much is it like a move 

282
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,680
from Biden, No fun, you know, 
Trump, lots of money for defense

283
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,960
tech startups. 
Or is it muddier than that? 

284
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,040
Or what are you seeing in terms 
of this, this President and the 

285
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,320
opportunity? 
Think, I think, I think this, 

286
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,040
the Trump administration is 
definitely saying, hey, we are 

287
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:34,440
doing things a little bit 
differently and, and we are 

288
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,080
willing to get rid of many of 
the sacred cows, especially when

289
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,720
it comes into procurement. 
And there's, there's, you know, 

290
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,200
the most recent thing that 
happened was there was a, an 

291
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:50,560
entity that all the senior 
generals across the, across the 

292
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,960
services would work on 
requirements. 

293
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,840
And some of those requirements, 
like one simple requirement 

294
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,400
would take potentially 800 days 
to go through this approval 

295
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,280
process. 
This was recently abolished. 

296
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,880
So there's efforts. 
And 800 days to start up might 

297
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,920
not live that long. 
They can sort of get a signs of 

298
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,560
revenue faster than that. 
So for sure, for sure. 

299
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,680
But, but I would also say that 
one of the things that has 

300
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,520
really changed and, and, and 
causes gold rush as as you say, 

301
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:24,000
was the reckon was the Ukraine 
war and is the Ukraine war. 

302
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,040
This has shown that warfare has 
changed, right? 

303
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,520
Warfare is now about speed. 
How fast can you get that 

304
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,720
autonomous thing to do 
something? 

305
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,200
It's about scale. 
You know, mass and quantity 

306
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,400
overwhelms what in in DoD they 
call exquisite, right? 

307
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,240
These are basically it's a fancy
way to say something super 

308
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,040
expensive and took, you know, 
years to develop. 

309
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,040
Exquisite. 
I didn't know that was a term 

310
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:52,880
of. 
Art it really it really it 

311
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:57,120
really is a term. 
And so so this is how this is 

312
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:02,840
how the changing the way warfare
has changed is is what is where 

313
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,240
opportunities are people that 
can that can move fast, right. 

314
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,680
But here's the reality now. 
Some would say, is there a 

315
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,880
bubble in defense tech already? 
You got to be able, your product

316
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:19,560
has to work out-of-the-box and 
it has to work every time. 

317
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,080
And you better be ready to 
produce a, a shit ton of, you 

318
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,400
know, in a, in a short period of
time. 

319
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,960
And that is the need in, in, in 
what in, in, in, in, in, in our 

320
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,560
military. 
So, so you know, if you're, if 

321
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,640
you're not able to operate in a 
place like Ukraine, which is the

322
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,640
current battlefield, the the 
electronic warfare, the jamming,

323
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,200
the use of autonomy, the use of 
counter UAS systems. 

324
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:45,680
Drones. 
Drones to put it. 

325
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,480
I mean, drones are key to this, 
right? 

326
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,960
I mean, like drone warfare. 
That's the thing. 

327
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,840
We're building at scale and 
combating, right? 

328
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,040
Or is that dumping it down too 
much? 

329
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,760
No. 
You, you're not that's the 

330
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,600
current thing, right? 
Like like that. 

331
00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,720
That is one element that we have
to address. 

332
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,000
Why? 
Because of air superiority. 

333
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,280
Air superiority is a term that 
we have forgotten or taken for 

334
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,480
granted because the United 
States of America's military has

335
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,720
always has had air superiority 
since basically the end of of 

336
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,200
the Korean War. 
And air superiority allows our 

337
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,760
troops on the ground to be able 
to do their thing. 

338
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,839
It allows commerce and 
commercial aircraft to travel 

339
00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:28,920
around the the world. 
And when you lose that because 

340
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:33,360
of this use of drones by 
adversaries, this is going to be

341
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:36,200
a a major problem. 
And we've already recognized 

342
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,000
that we don't have the drone 
fleet necessary. 

343
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,720
We see our adversaries like 
Russia, China and Iran 

344
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:47,040
increasing theirs. 
And so if you see a increase in 

345
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,040
in that drone activity, then 
guess what? 

346
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,400
You need to be able to do the 
counter drone as well. 

347
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:57,080
And you can't have a system 
that's $1 billion that shoots a 

348
00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:05,240
rocket that's worth $600 million
at a drone that cost 20K, right?

349
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,960
So, so, so this is the asymmetry
of warfare is one of the things 

350
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,720
for being that it is is is that 
it's changing that is changing 

351
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:14,400
the game. 
Yeah. 

352
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,720
So that seems like, I mean, I 
was just in Southern California 

353
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,280
last week actually I was over at
day one Ventures event, but they

354
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,800
also have a ton of portfolio 
companies in El Segundo right 

355
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,440
now building things, you know. 
They're making making the 

356
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:27,920
rounds. 
Yeah, I did. 

357
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,040
I did. 
Defense tech startups wanted you

358
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,520
to like, sign NDA's. 
You have to be like, no, we 

359
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,600
write, we write about these. 
Well, you didn't come knocking 

360
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,040
on our door, you know. 
You didn't bark in our door. 

361
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,840
Unfortunately, you know, I have 
ran out of time, had to go to 

362
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,400
the airport, which was right 
there conveniently. 

363
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,920
But I was going to say I met, 
you know, I met some interesting

364
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,160
founders that are taking, you 
know, basically beyond defense, 

365
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,720
you know, nuclear power, Valor 
atomics is doing this, you know,

366
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,120
as AI infrastructure. 
Some other people are trying to 

367
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:58,760
get space superiority like 
Astroforge. 

368
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:00,600
I think there's like a lot of 
these really interesting 

369
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,760
founders in the area. 
But you know, your question 

370
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,160
about if it's a bubble, I mean, 
I think there's tons of people 

371
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,280
doing interesting things, but 
and you're over there too. 

372
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,360
But what kind of distinguishes, 
I think, you know, a player 

373
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,680
that's early in the defense boom
right now to, you know, actually

374
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,000
make it and get, you know, 
procurement, even if the 

375
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,400
administration is more friendly,
like, you know, how many of 

376
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,560
these companies are going to, 
you know, make it to the next 

377
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,080
step? 
Look, your product has to to 

378
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,480
work. 
It starts with that. 

379
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,920
You can talk a big game, you can
beat your chest, you can have 

380
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,520
some great your first widget. 
But that thing has to work 

381
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,840
out-of-the-box. 
Because if our men and women are

382
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,920
using a tool in order to protect
themselves, defend themselves, 

383
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:39,120
it has to work every single 
time. 

384
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,360
And I think that is where many 
companies have a problem. 

385
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,040
You do these exercises where the
military bases that give us your

386
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,120
product, we're going to run it. 
They kick the tires in essence, 

387
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,000
and the things don't work right.
So so that is it sounds so 

388
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,280
basic. 
Because they're hardware 

389
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,680
companies fundamentally, right? 
It's like hardware is hard in 

390
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,440
any area of tech. 
So why within, you know, defense

391
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,360
tech would it be any different? 
I I sometimes think VCs like 

392
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:06,440
didn't. 
Understand that when, when they 

393
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,880
got into the space as they were 
like, oh, look at all this money

394
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,760
that's here. 
Fundamentally, they're trying to

395
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,880
build like highly technical and 
sophisticated drones that in any

396
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,600
industry, let alone like defense
would be hard to like sell and 

397
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,200
and, you know, promise. 
And it's like a battlefield 

398
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,480
technology, right? 
Like this is, it's like the 

399
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,680
stakes are higher than it would 
be for like, you know, a 

400
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,040
wearable that doesn't work. 
Exactly the stakes are higher, 

401
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,240
but but Tom, here's the here's 
the other difference where 

402
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,240
you're seeing all these 
companies that Madeline is able 

403
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,400
to go see is because there is 
now private investments in this.

404
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:40,120
When I left, when I left 
Congress in I guess it was 21 

405
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,760
January 21, I was a free agent 
and I joined Allen and company, 

406
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:45,960
you know, the New York Merchant 
Bank. 

407
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,120
Nobody wanted to invest in a 
company that was dual use, 

408
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,400
right, let alone Uncle Sam is, 
is is customer number one. 

409
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,920
And only the ability, look, the 
ability for a company like US 

410
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,720
chaos to have half a billion 
dollars right is going to allow 

411
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:07,480
us to have a runway to produce 
that product in a time to meet 

412
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,480
the procurement cycles of the 
government of the thing, the 

413
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,320
evaluation and then and then 
administration. 

414
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,720
Maybe there's a good time just 
to say directly what chaos does,

415
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,680
so the the sort of people know. 
Yeah. 

416
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,000
Look, Chaos, we are a defense 
tech company. 

417
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,160
We're based there in, in in LA, 
technically Hawthorne. 

418
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,960
We have an office in in 
Washington, DC and one of our 

419
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,280
first products is is a radar. 
It's a counter UAS radar. 

420
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:35,080
One of the things that's special
about us is we can see big and 

421
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,840
and high and far and small, low 
and near all at the all at the 

422
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,720
exact same time. 
We've operated, we've been 

423
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,480
operating, we've operated in 
Ukraine in the cold and it's 

424
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,600
been baked in the hot sun of the
Middle East. 

425
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,880
But we're in and activities with
the Army and we're doing a 

426
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,880
number of projects with with 
with the Air Force and we have 

427
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,840
figured out a way to be a 
fraction of the cost about 10 

428
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,240
times less and then others and 
see even further it. 

429
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,400
The idea is you don't, if one 
thing is blown up, it's not 

430
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,080
going to like ruin the whole 
budget, right? 

431
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,440
That's that's part of it. 
And sort of tracking these 

432
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,400
drones everywhere. 
Absolutely. 

433
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,680
We, it's multi lateration. 
We use a thing called coherent 

434
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,440
distributed networking where 
we're able to have multiple 

435
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,800
things work with each other like
like as one unit. 

436
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,400
And so we can put two systems 4 
kilometers apart and you 

437
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,760
basically have a radar that's 4 
kilometers in diameter, which is

438
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,040
really big and it's a fraction 
of the cost. 

439
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,760
So it's survivable and we can 
upgrade it and update it over 

440
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,320
the air and at the edge. 
And then we have we're very 

441
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,920
Expeditionary. 
So, you know, two of us on this 

442
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,040
call could carry this into a 
place and see further than 

443
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,480
anybody else, as was was 
validated by a, a a combatant. 

444
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,280
And and so this it's, it's a 
fascinating, you know, I didn't 

445
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,800
think for me, you know, when I 
was leaving investment banking, 

446
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,080
I didn't think I was going to be
slinging radar. 

447
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,640
Have you carried one around with
somebody? 

448
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,440
You're saying any two of us 
could carry it? 

449
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,320
Have you? 
Have you fact checked that? 

450
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,400
Like if you try are you? 
Well, no, we we like that's how 

451
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,080
we put it. 
That's how we put it in places. 

452
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,880
But but but what was great for 
me was the team. 

453
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,080
You know, it's an amazing team. 
Our our two Co CEOs, Beau Maher 

454
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,880
is, is literally a genius, 
right, that has leading this 

455
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,560
tech John Tennant has been in on
the kind of one of the early 

456
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,680
godfathers of, of defense 
investing and was doing it 

457
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,200
before before anybody else. 
We have PhDs folks that are 

458
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:40,160
mentioned in in Nobel prizes, 
which I think is pretty cool. 

459
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:42,800
We have a Navy SEAL. 
We have folks that have served 

460
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,200
and then we just have some 
amazing engineers and and and 

461
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,280
and and operators who are been 
on the other edge, right. 

462
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,440
And the thing that ultimately 
it's hard for many people to 

463
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,360
understand this because of our 
ability to see further, that 

464
00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:59,480
gives the war fighter 5 to 10 
more minutes. 

465
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,280
When you're getting shot at or 
bombs are dropped on your head, 

466
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,800
5 to 10 more minutes is an 
attorney. 

467
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,360
An attorney to understand. 
It's an attorney to decide what 

468
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:08,720
you could do. 
It's a turn. 

469
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,040
It's an attorney to be able and 
it gives you time to act and so 

470
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,200
that mission of giving the 
warfighter additional time is 

471
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,280
been great and it's kind of me 
getting back to my roots. 

472
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,120
Well, let me quickly bring it 
back to drones and air 

473
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:25,000
superiority. 
Now this came up a lot in the 

474
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,960
story that Maddie and I did. 
We've been writing a lot of 

475
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,520
defense tech stories recently. 
Is the concept is the 

476
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,040
possibility of air superiority 
in a time. 

477
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,040
I mean, we're like a military 
tactician podcast. 

478
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,600
Now this is great. 
Yeah. 

479
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,200
Is it is it possible in a time 
where you can get these, you 

480
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,320
know, 10 thousands of dollars 
Shahed drones, you know, pretty 

481
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,040
effectively fighting people, you
know, in in in Yemen, you know, 

482
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,520
on behalf of Ansar Allah or 
whatever is going on in Ukraine 

483
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,720
right now with, you know, 
Iranian made and Russian made 

484
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,520
drones fighting against American
made drones. 

485
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,920
I guess, you know, with like 
Iran, there was this, you know, 

486
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,120
Israel was able to to develop 
air superiority and that allowed

487
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,200
them to shoot, you know, you 
know, their munitions at the, 

488
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,520
the nuclear facilities. 
But in general, are we like at a

489
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,520
time where we're just post air 
superiority and everything is 

490
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,440
just about these 5 to 10 minute 
moments of advantage that you 

491
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,640
can get at a, you know, day by 
day basis? 

492
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,720
A great question and the answer 
is no, the days of air superior 

493
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,080
not over. 
However, the days of air 

494
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,360
superiority is not a given. 
And that's why we can no longer 

495
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:28,400
pull out $60 million systems 
that are defending against 

496
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,720
these, against these cheap 
drones. 

497
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,600
So to be able to detect the 
threats is, is, is possible and 

498
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,320
that's that's why we've gotten 
the investments we have. 

499
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,040
We've got the interest. 
And what do you do about the 

500
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,520
threat, what what's called 
closing the kill chain and this 

501
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,360
is, I'm sure Madeline and many 
of the companies that you saw, 

502
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:51,560
we're trying to work on this. 
And so an area of opportunity is

503
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:56,200
really a cheap way of 
destruction of stopping those 

504
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,840
drones from happening. 
Now you get into a whole nother 

505
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,840
kinds of questions. 
So if you have a drone that's 

506
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,000
flying around LAX airport and 
you take it out, when do you 

507
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,240
take it out? 
How do you take it out? 

508
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,560
What do you take it out with? 
You know, is it big enough? 

509
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,400
Is it is it big? 
Is it small? 

510
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,160
Where does it go? 
So there's a whole number of 

511
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,000
conversations about when you 
defeat that that system. 

512
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,560
But to your point, Tom, one of 
the big, one of the big topics 

513
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,640
in Washington, DC right now is 
Golden Dome. 

514
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,000
And, and, and look, Golden Dome 
is important. 

515
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,040
Being able to defend against 
ICBM intercontinental ballistic 

516
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,640
missiles that get launched from 
one of our adversaries, land, go

517
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,320
into space, come back down and 
hit something right. 

518
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,680
And, and, and defending against 
this is important. 

519
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,320
But the reality is the real 
threat and the most immediate 

520
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,800
threat that's going to happen to
us is that van that has a bunch 

521
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,240
of drones park next to a power 
plant. 

522
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,680
It's going to be a cruise 
missile, which is low and slow. 

523
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,280
And I'm sure y'all watched a 
Maverick Top Gun 2. 

524
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:01,960
Top Gun. 
Maverick. 

525
00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:03,080
Yeah, Top. 
Gun Maverick. 

526
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,240
Yeah, go on. 
Great move speaking my leg, 

527
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,160
right? 
Yeah, but that part where they 

528
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,960
all had to fly real low under 
the radar, like that's a 

529
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,560
reality. 
Like that is not just some 

530
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,520
Hollywood Fang, you know, that's
a reality in in real life. 

531
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,080
And that's what cruise missiles 
and drones, you know, are able 

532
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,760
to get under and take advantage 
of terrain masking and fly under

533
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:24,960
the radar. 
So you got to be able to see 

534
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:26,960
that stuff. 
And that is probably the more, 

535
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,080
the more likely threat because 
it's cheaper. 

536
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,640
Our adversaries are, are being 
inventive in developing these, 

537
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,840
these kinds of, of systems and 
we got to be able to protect 

538
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,880
against that. 
But air superiority, domain 

539
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,280
superiority is not something we 
can give up. 

540
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,240
And we, and we've been talking a
lot about air space. 

541
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,840
And part of Golden Dome is 
defending things in space. 

542
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,760
But space is, is truly a, a 
contested environment. 

543
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,480
Now the Chinese are, are 
building satellites that have a 

544
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,080
claw. 
OK, let me tell you, the only 

545
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:02,720
reason you have a satellite with
a claw is you're going to grab 

546
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:03,960
something and knock something 
else out. 

547
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,600
And most people don't realize 
people like space space, who 

548
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,720
cares, right? 
The amount of stuff that happens

549
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,640
in space that that impacts us 
terrestrially is super important

550
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,040
from the GPS and how we get 
around to our our 

551
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,520
telecommunications. 
So that's another area that is 

552
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,400
really kind of cutting edge and 
a lot of investments in the tech

553
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,840
space are going into the space. 
I met with this, you know, 

554
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,760
company that was, you know, 
considering the, it's called 

555
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,840
Starpath. 
They're building the devices to 

556
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,960
help us, you know, colonize Mars
really moon shot idea, but 

557
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,600
they're talking about Mars as, 
you know, like a frontier that 

558
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,440
we want our people on, you know,
as as as we go into space and 

559
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,320
space you said remains 
uncontested. 

560
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,640
A lot of this investment is 
really looking to the future in 

561
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,600
that part of the country where 
you're head company's 

562
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,960
headquartered right now. 
But that sort of gets to what I 

563
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,840
was going to ask. 
You know, it's like, OK, Mars, 

564
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,200
like, it's good, good to have a 
position in there someday. 

565
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,760
But what is like, what is the 
war that this defense tech 

566
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,440
industry is building for? 
Like you said in the beginning, 

567
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,160
this idea, OK, we're learning a 
lot from Ukraine about how war 

568
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,760
is being fought. 
Maybe we'll be in this war, you 

569
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,440
know, supporting this war for a 
long time. 

570
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,920
And do you think it is about 
Ukraine? 

571
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,720
Obviously there's this like, 
will we have conflict with 

572
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,320
China? 
I mean, I personally, you know, 

573
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,880
and I think I've said on the 
podcast before, I feel like 

574
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,240
we're in this very weird 
political moment where the right

575
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,040
has a lot of hostility to China,
but doesn't necessarily seem 

576
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,240
like it's psyching itself up to 
go to war over Taiwan. 

577
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,760
So I don't, I don't personally 
see, at least with the the 

578
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,480
current elite Republican elite, 
like where we're going to war 

579
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,960
with China. 
I'm yearning for the simple days

580
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,720
of post 911 when we knew we were
fighting terrorists and what 

581
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,400
kind of war it was had. 
And so the defense industrial 

582
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,680
complex knew what to build. 
Like, what are all these 

583
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,880
companies? 
What war are all these companies

584
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,360
aligning around to fight? 
Well, even around Ukraine too, 

585
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,000
you, you have people like David 
Sachs who would be happy. 

586
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,320
I think he's consistent on this 
point to pull the plug tomorrow 

587
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,760
and stop all support for 
Ukrainian troops. 

588
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,680
Right, there's such a divide 
within. 

589
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,760
War. 
There's such a divide between 

590
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,000
China hawkishness and what a 
future conflict with China could

591
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,360
look like combined with pretty, 
you know, isolationists. 

592
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,000
Like we don't intervene. 
Like, why are we spending our 

593
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,560
resources on this kind of 
thinking? 

594
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,480
So I mean, also with all this 
build up like is there, you 

595
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,560
know, what do you think about 
the possibility that this could 

596
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,680
just, you know, be turned off 
too, you know, like the money if

597
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,160
if conflict doesn't end up 
happening. 

598
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,840
So, so I've learned not to try 
to prognosticate about what's 

599
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,760
going to happen in the future 
because anything's possible. 

600
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:38,720
But here, here are a few things 
we do know. 

601
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,880
Here's a few things. 
Vladimir Putin has made it very 

602
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,600
clear what his intentions are. 
He is trying to re establish the

603
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,000
territorial integrity of the 
USSR, period, full stop. 

604
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,040
Right. 
Like this is his intent. 

605
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:57,560
You know what happened with 
Transnistria, W Ocasio Moldova, 

606
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,000
You know, like it's a long list 
of what Vladimir Putin is trying

607
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,000
to do. 
I just came back from the Center

608
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,320
for European Policy Analysis, 
invited me to go to Denmark and 

609
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,000
Norway to talk about autonomy in
the Arctic Circle, right? 

610
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,160
And, and our friends over there 
are Scandinavian and Nordic 

611
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,120
friends. 
The Arctic Circle is about what 

612
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,160
the, how the Russians are trying
to control that in order to have

613
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,160
a second strike capability on 
the United States, right? 

614
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,680
The, the Russians have made this
very clear. 

615
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:27,920
So we have to be prepared for 
that. 

616
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,040
So there's no debate now how we 
prepare what we should do. 

617
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,360
Oh, and by the way, I think it's
better to deal with Vladimir 

618
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,960
Putin, the Russians by spending 
2% of the. 

619
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:42,800
Right. 
Obviously I'm aligned with that.

620
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,840
I feel like the Democrats are 
aligned with that, old school 

621
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,080
Republicans are aligned with 
that. 

622
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,760
Everybody but like one guy and 
Tucker Carlson seem to be 

623
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,400
aligned with that. 
But it's just like you never 

624
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,360
know if the mood is going to 
change or where where things are

625
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:55,600
going to go. 
Because guess what? 

626
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,160
My brother who sells cable here 
in San Antonio, TX, you know, 

627
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,120
he's like what? 
How does this affect, affect me?

628
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,000
NATO has been one of the most 
important alliances in the 

629
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,400
world. 70 years of peace and 
prosperity in Europe has allowed

630
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,520
the United States to have a 
trading partner. 

631
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,920
That has increased our economy, 
has increased our way of life. 

632
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,480
Now China, we know that the 
Chinese government is trying to 

633
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,680
surpass the United States of 
America as the sole global 

634
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,880
superpower. 
And they're going to do that in 

635
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,400
about 17. 
I think it's 17 to 22 different 

636
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,920
technologies. 
They are the the the Xi Jinping 

637
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,000
wants to re establish and 
reunify China. 

638
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,040
That means bringing in Taiwan. 
Now, will we defend Taiwan? 

639
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,480
It's a very good question. 
I know the answer. 

640
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,840
You talk privately with people 
in Washington DC Republicans and

641
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,880
Democrats recognize the 
importance of that. 

642
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,240
But we have to be prepared for 
that. 

643
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,920
The Chinese are trying to create
the dominance in space. 

644
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,040
The Chinese are trying to go to 
the moon. 

645
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,640
They're trying to build a 
physical structure on the moon. 

646
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,240
Why are they trying to build a 
physical structure on the moon? 

647
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,720
Because it gives, it's easier to
continue doing operations down 

648
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,520
terrestrially if you have an 
actual presence on the moon. 

649
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,080
And so, so part of these things 
that we have to be prepared for 

650
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,520
this, we still got to worry 
about what is Iran's response 

651
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,280
going to be, right? 
What's happening then? 

652
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,160
Is there going to be another 
terrorist organization or group 

653
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,840
to do things? 
We know narco traffic contes are

654
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,120
bringing in drugs into the 
country using like these are all

655
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,200
the things that we have to be 
prepared for. 

656
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,160
But the thing that's missing, 
and I think all three of y'all 

657
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,400
have explained this, is we 
haven't explained to the voting 

658
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,880
public why all these things 
matter and why we should be 

659
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,080
spending hard earned federal tax
dollars towards these efforts 

660
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,440
and these initiatives. 
And at the end, it's to ensure 

661
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,960
that the United States of 
America has stays and the most 

662
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,560
important economy and power in 
the world. 

663
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,280
And, and one way to do that is 
to our hard power and our soft 

664
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:56,880
power. 
And we got to have friends. 

665
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,360
Do you think we will have a new 
one or two new Silicon Valley 

666
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,160
primes in a decade? 
For sure, for sure. 

667
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,520
Because the existing primes are 
weak and will fall out or. 

668
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,920
Just I mean, Andrew has 
basically, I mean Palantir is 

669
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,480
basically they're, they're a 
$500 billion company at this 

670
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:12,800
point. 
And then Andrew? 

671
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,880
Software, Andrew, that's more. 
But Andrew is like, look, I 

672
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,760
believe me, it would be a more 
interesting story for me. 

673
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,719
But I have not gotten a single 
person to tell me that they they

674
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,239
don't have the goods to actually
be able to deliver the things 

675
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,239
that the military wants. 
Maybe you can be that guy. 

676
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,920
Maybe you can you can be the 
Andrew naysayer because Palmer 

677
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,679
lucky bothers me. 
Believe me, it would be a great 

678
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:32,520
story. 
I was a big Clarkson fan, which 

679
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,960
I take personally. 
Well, well, Palmer and I spent 

680
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,600
some time on the border when I 
was in when I was in Congress. 

681
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,880
We were, we were humping through
Carrizo Kane in Valverde County.

682
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,040
And because I was talking about 
making, we need a smart wall and

683
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,800
some guy named Palmer lucky 
calls me. 

684
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,800
He's like, I got your small 
smart wall. 

685
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,040
And I was like, have you been on
the border? 

686
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,960
And you know, we took him and 
Brian Shrimp and and some of 

687
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,800
those guys down to the border. 
So, so look, I think what what 

688
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,040
they have built is fantastic. 
I think Palantir as your 

689
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:07,240
example, but but absolutely the 
the the innovation, the ability 

690
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:10,720
to scale it. 
We're seeing some some companies

691
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,160
will there be a roll up in the 
future of a lot of these 

692
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,960
companies? 
Who knows. 

693
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,960
But having another defense prime
that's involved in hardware? 

694
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,440
Absolutely. 
And and like I said, that's what

695
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,960
we're trying to build on that 
Chaos industries as well. 

696
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,440
As how? 
How much do you think you know 

697
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,640
the government people see it has
you start up folks versus like 

698
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:33,480
every company having its own 
brand? 

699
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,680
Or how much does one company 
sort of screwing up hurt 

700
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,960
everybody versus you think 
people are savvy enough to know 

701
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,360
these are different efforts? 
Think, I think the the US 

702
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,560
military buyers are 
sophisticated enough to know the

703
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,520
difference, right. 
And, and look, it's like 

704
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,040
anything, it's pattern 
recognition, you know, people 

705
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,440
that when they come that, you 
know, they're probably could be 

706
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,440
inaccurate or they're adding a 
little bit more yeast into that,

707
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,840
into that story. 
And so, so this is, this is 

708
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,760
about testing evaluation, right?
Like nothing is done by a 

709
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,600
handshake. 
And when it comes to DoD, you 

710
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,880
got to drag your equipment 
somewhere, prove it can do that 

711
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,400
thing, and you got to do that 
thing multiple times. 

712
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,880
And so, so I, but, but look, 
there's, there's frustration 

713
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,320
with the folks that have been 
doing this for decades. 

714
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,720
There's frustration when people 
that have been doing it for for 

715
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,080
for only a couple months that is
going to continue exist, but 

716
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,600
those are going to be successful
are the ones that deliver and 

717
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,240
and that gets known very 
quickly. 

718
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,200
What? 
Was your yeast putting a little 

719
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,000
yeast in it or like this sort of
both insanity and people over 

720
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,960
inflating their startups. 
I don't know what was your read 

721
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,680
seen a bunch of inhaling a bunch
of defense tech startups at once

722
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,120
or what's what you read on the 
insanity level right now? 

723
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,200
Yeah. 
I mean, you know, it's hard not 

724
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,040
to get like, really rah, rah. 
We're going to take on China 

725
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,560
when you're down there for a 
little bit if you go hang out. 

726
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,440
Drinking the kool-aid too much? 
Hang. 

727
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,160
Out the there's a, there's a 
tiki bar in El Segundo. 

728
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,120
Well, I don't know if you've 
been to the purple Orchid, but 

729
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,440
that's where everyone hangs out.
It's if you go there too long, 

730
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,040
you get a little, you know, 
let's go to the moon. 

731
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,080
But I think there's a ton of 
enthusiasm, right? 

732
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,680
And I'm sure will, you've seen 
it there. 

733
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,720
But a lot of these guys, you 
know, I don't not all of these 

734
00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:22,000
teams necessarily have what I 
would say like in some cases, 

735
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,320
maybe you maybe other, you know,
generals on their board, people 

736
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,440
from Congress, people with, you 
know, intelligence information 

737
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,160
guiding them going into this. 
So is that going to be a 

738
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:32,440
hindrance? 
Like, at some point, do they 

739
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,080
need to have, you know, kind of 
the adult in the room to make it

740
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,680
work? 
That's that's always been a 

741
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,360
Silicon Valley problem, right? 
Like lots of, you know, Uber 

742
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,400
famously Travis, like personal 
did some of the like adults in 

743
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,840
the room, you know, so there 
haven't there have been Silicon 

744
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,440
Valley companies that have been 
good at sort of saying, no, 

745
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,480
we're never we're never going to
learn the lessons of the big 

746
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,760
industry because we're trying to
disrupt them. 

747
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,920
On the other hand, you know, 
selling the government. 

748
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,560
Well, what is it? 
What is the adults in the room? 

749
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,480
What is the, what is the adult 
in the room really mean for 

750
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,560
defense tech? 
It's really about like, listen, 

751
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,760
if you want to milk the 
government, if you want to get 

752
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,000
like all those dollars for a 
product that maybe doesn't work 

753
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,800
for 10 to 15 years, here's how 
you do it. 

754
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,320
That's, that's the game here. 
We're we're, we're primes. 

755
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,840
We do. 
And real cynicism from Tom. 

756
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,880
Yeah, I know what? 
I'm saying we know the question 

757
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,040
is on on the podcast is. 
Come on, I look at those 

758
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,200
watching Martin stock. 
Prices. 

759
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,120
It's OK, brother. 
Yeah, how's that F35 doing? 

760
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,880
So, so, So what is the adult in 
the room to kind of hit all 

761
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,240
these these kinds of questions? 
Yeah. 

762
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,920
The government has a sale cycle 
just like anybody else has. 

763
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,400
It's just longer and it's more 
complicated. 

764
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:39,360
And so so the ability to know 
the right people and translate 

765
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,720
what things happen. 
A senior general may slap 

766
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:44,560
somebody on the back and say, 
man, I love your products. 

767
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,480
I want to be your be your 
advocate. 

768
00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:49,440
And then often times that 
company runs off be like, we're 

769
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,160
going to get a government 
contract tomorrow. 

770
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,200
It's like, no, it doesn't work 
that way, right? 

771
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,760
And so, so part of it is 
understanding that sales cycle 

772
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,120
that happened in the government 
that that says, hey, the cut the

773
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,360
bravado, right? 
Let's go in and demonstrate the 

774
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,320
how this thing works, right? 
Look for for us, it's, you know,

775
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,360
we've had people be like your 
products too cheap, right? 

776
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,400
Like like, like, like in by 
cost, right? 

777
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,600
Like it's expensive. 
See, that's what I'm talking 

778
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:15,920
about. 
That's. 

779
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,360
What I'm talking about it's 
like, but it's like, look, the 

780
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,120
cost is the cost and this is the
value of what you have to do in 

781
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,840
order to survive where we the 
future of warfare. 

782
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,720
So we're trying to bring a 
different system to people. 

783
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:33,000
So having folks that understand 
a very opaque complicated 

784
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,680
process, if you don't have that,
it's going to be hard, 

785
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:45,000
especially if you don't have the
capital to last a significant 

786
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,400
period of time. 
Yeah, how much he's the 

787
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,800
government willing to sort of 
say, we know you haven't totally

788
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,600
figured this out. 
Like you're being open, not your

789
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,000
company, but like this 
hypothetical startup that it's 

790
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,760
like we but we want this so bad 
that effectively we're almost an

791
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,600
investor by sort of paying you 
some money to keep building it. 

792
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,200
Is that something that's 
happening, or it's more like, 

793
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,640
no, you need to get this locked 
down with your Silicon Valley 

794
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,520
investors before you bring it to
us? 

795
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,280
So there's some of that, right? 
Like this is where the color of 

796
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,760
money and the types of money, 
the types of of contracts, you 

797
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,840
know, Sibber grants, small 
business grants, Karetas, you 

798
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,200
know, this is working with the 
government on a particular thing

799
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,720
that they need. 
The problem with some early, 

800
00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:34,840
early startups is the the 
articulation of the need and the

801
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,960
problem is often times 
classified. 

802
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,520
So if you don't have it's one of
these chicken or egg problems. 

803
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:47,360
But to go and understand this 
complicated classified problem, 

804
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,400
to address that problem if you 
don't know the details. 

805
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,480
And so everybody talks in vague,
opaque terms. 

806
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:59,880
And sometimes that that, that 
that kills, it slows, it slows 

807
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,400
the process down. 
And that goes back to having 

808
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,200
people that have spent time, you
know, I was on the House 

809
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,120
Permanent Select Committee on 
Intelligence, right? 

810
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,240
Like, like having, you can have 
some of these broader 

811
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:12,080
conversations. 
When I was in Congress, one of 

812
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,200
the things that I try to do was 
to be able to give people 

813
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,000
companies, you know, it was a 
kind of like a new 

814
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,480
classification where they can be
explained a problem. 

815
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,360
Look, I get it. 
You should have ATSA top secret 

816
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,920
clearance if you're going to be 
engaging with government 

817
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,960
systems, interacting with our 
our a man and control models. 

818
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,520
But to hear a problem and try to
solve it, to tweak your widget, 

819
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,680
we got to do a better job of 
articulating that and we could 

820
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,960
see some things move. 
But but yet some of that 

821
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,600
conversation is happening. 
And that's why companies getting

822
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,720
all the the i's dotted and T's 
crossed to have classified 

823
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:52,760
systems is important because you
learn more about the specific 

824
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,960
requirements. 
The Golden Dome, how loose do 

825
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,600
you think it is or fixed? 
Like is it shoot down things 

826
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:03,240
like the Iron Dome in Israel or 
is it generally defend us in 

827
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,560
lots of different types of 
companies you think also? 

828
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,120
Did they really just pitch 
Golden Dome to Trump? 

829
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,600
As in, like, you know how you 
like the Iron Dome, but you know

830
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,520
how it's not gold because you 
like gold. 

831
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,480
Well, well, I think. 
You have a golden version of 

832
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,160
that. 
Change happened because Iron 

833
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,120
Dome was was copyrighted. 
Really. 

834
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:22,320
I didn't know that. 
That's fast. 

835
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:23,400
Who? 
Owns that IP. 

836
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,200
But but look, is it I didn't 
know that. 

837
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:31,360
So yes, it is the shoots make 
sure that at the space layer 

838
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,200
that you know comes on called 
the transport layer, something 

839
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,000
leaves like boost phase, which 
is when it first gets shot out 

840
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,680
of the ground from a missile 
silo. 

841
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,080
You want to try to hit it there.
Then when it goes into space, 

842
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:47,440
right, trying to stop it while 
it's in space, that's where a 

843
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,280
lot of the focus and attention 
of Golden Dome is now in the 

844
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,640
terminal phase, when it comes 
back in to the atmosphere to to 

845
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,120
come down, you know, that means 
you've missed the other two 

846
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,800
times. 
And it's like, holy smokes, this

847
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,640
is getting real and you got to 
do it. 

848
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,800
So, so there's needs to be some 
improvement there. 

849
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:09,280
And so yes, it is, it is ICBM's,
it's hypersonics, it's glide 

850
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,640
vehicles, basically something 
that is basically falling out of

851
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,480
space and it's harder to detect 
in the sea. 

852
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,360
And, and then and then what I 
think is a major component is 

853
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,920
what we call the underlayer. 
This is cruise missiles, the the

854
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,200
county Uas's. 
And so yes, like, like this is 

855
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,280
complicated. 
General good line has been given

856
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,600
a difficult task. 
A lot of the services have 

857
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,520
already developed some of these 
kinds of capabilities. 

858
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,000
So part of that is bringing it 
into one kind of command 

859
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:39,800
structure. 
Right. 

860
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,160
I would hope like if somebody 
shoots a missile at us right 

861
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,480
now, we have some plan, right? 
I guess this is sort of the I 

862
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,200
assume I thought we could deal 
with that like are we not 

863
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,120
capable of if somebody. 
Fires a missile. 

864
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,880
There's a lot that you. 
Can't say you're not. 

865
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:55,840
There's only one way to find out
there. 

866
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,720
Just look at, just look at, look
at, look at the 12, the 12 day 

867
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:01,800
war. 
I think that's what we're 

868
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,040
calling it in between Israel and
Iran. 

869
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,200
So the Israelis shooting 
everything down was not just the

870
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,120
Israelis by themselves, right, 
right. 

871
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,080
And, and so, so part of this and
This is why our partnerships and

872
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,000
our alliances matter. 
A lot of times you, you shoot 

873
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,120
that thing down before it leaves
the airspace of the adversary 

874
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,480
who's shooting it right. 
And, and so, so, so that's why 

875
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,320
this is layered. 
And, and, and again, you're 

876
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:31,280
never going to see a PowerPoint 
presentation that says these are

877
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,040
the three things we can't do 
right, because that's super 

878
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,200
classified and we don't want our
adversaries in order to know 

879
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,120
that. 
But there is a lot of stuff, 

880
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,440
let's just say I sleep well at 
night. 

881
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,440
I sleep well at night, knowing 
that we can, you know what we're

882
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,520
able to, to, to defend it. 
But but, but this is evolving 

883
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:56,600
and changing and moving at a 
speed that none of us, that none

884
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,520
of us can, can understand. 
On golden Dome too. 

885
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,680
I mean, how much do you think 
Elon really fucked himself by 

886
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,720
getting into the fight with 
Trump? 

887
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,840
Because it seemed like SpaceX 
was sort of a shoo in to win a 

888
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,480
huge amount of golden Dome 
money. 

889
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,640
But it's unclear to me now how 
much his falling out with Trump 

890
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,760
is, is going to cause, you know,
them to actively look for an 

891
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,600
alternative. 
I mean, is there, is there 

892
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,440
really an alternative to SpaceX 
ultimately with with a lot of 

893
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,960
these kind of higher level 
satellite based defense systems?

894
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,800
Well, so here's what's 
fascinating. 

895
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,480
I think there is going to be a 
lot there. 

896
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,000
There's several companies that 
could could potentially get to 

897
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,680
where SpaceX is at a fraction of
the time. 

898
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:44,000
It is fascinating to me how 
space has has become a real 

899
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,360
commercial enterprise even in 
the short period of time that 

900
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,520
I've been I've been in Congress.
So so again, I, I think SpaceX 

901
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:57,080
is a is an important company to 
to American National security. 

902
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,400
What they may win or not when I 
I don't have you. 

903
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,320
A former congressman hasn't 
forgotten hasn't forgotten all 

904
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,240
his tricks. 
I did not hear Elon and fucked 

905
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:09,960
your answer there. 
There's some other interesting 

906
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:11,840
stuff. 
I'll let you we'll let you not 

907
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,560
let Tom bait you on that. 
I wanted to talk before we run 

908
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,040
out of time about just open AI. 
I mean, you were on open a eyes 

909
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,200
board. 
You know, a funny sort of 

910
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:25,000
footnote of history is, you 
know, you, you're, you depart 

911
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,760
and that sort of helps to leave 
room for the the board mutiny 

912
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,200
after you leave. 
I don't know if you've said 

913
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,400
anything about where you stand, 
but yeah, I'd love any sort of, 

914
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,440
I don't know, takeaways from 
working with Sam, your time at 

915
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,280
Open AI and your views on that 
industry. 

916
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,160
Well, my, my time at Open AI 
was, was fantastic, right? 

917
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,560
I got to know Sam. 
I held the first hearing on AI 

918
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,400
in Congress and, you know, I 
thought we were going to be 

919
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,120
having conversations about me 
being able to drive, be in my 

920
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:01,000
driverless car barreling down 
Interstate 10 and have 

921
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:04,320
Whataburger drops by a drone. 
A man can dream. 

922
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:09,280
It it, it deteriorated into a 
conversation about, you know, 

923
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,240
the drones going to be peeping 
in people's windows. 

924
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:14,160
That's delivering. 
It's like the FedEx, you're not 

925
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,840
worried about the FedEx guy 
peeping in your window, right? 

926
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,160
But so, so I did that and I 
wrote the first national 

927
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,400
strategy on AI. 
So that's why I got to know, got

928
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,240
to know, Sam, go on the board. 
It is. 

929
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:28,080
It's fascinating how people 
didn't think that, you know, 

930
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,320
generative AI was we get to 
where it was in the wild, being 

931
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:37,480
inside and having access to, to 
ChatGPT or we call GPT 3 and GPT

932
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,880
4 before it, before it came 
public. 

933
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,720
I only walked away from the 
board because I, I ran for 

934
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:47,160
president and I had away from, 
from all of my, my, my had to 

935
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,520
step away from all my commercial
activities. 

936
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,520
So everybody knew about this. 
I still don't know why the coup 

937
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:58,200
happened and and when you look 
after kind of whenever we 

938
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,880
figured out what was going on 
and you had all the employees 

939
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,600
basically say, hey, we're 
walking. 

940
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:08,960
If Sam's not not not put back in
place is I think testament. 

941
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,120
These are the same people that 
were working on safety issues 

942
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:12,960
and things like that. 
It's fascinating. 

943
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,040
There's a number of legal 
battles that are happening. 

944
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,120
I'm curious to where things 
would get learned through 

945
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:23,080
discovery in that process or 
really happening from the by the

946
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,520
from the coup lotters. 
Interesting. 

947
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,440
Yeah. 
But in the end, in the end, I 

948
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:32,560
think what Sam and the team and 
people like Mira, I know Mira 

949
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,200
Mirati is not not there anymore 
have built is is is a pretty is 

950
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,040
a pretty fantastic tool. 
You decided to go into sort of 

951
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,160
defense rather than AI, 
obviously the two hottest 

952
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:44,880
sectors. 
Was that just a matter of your 

953
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,920
like expertise or you were more 
bullish overall on sort of? 

954
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,440
Look, I, I think, I think it's a
mix of things, right? 

955
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,520
I, I, we had an amazing team, 
right? 

956
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:59,240
You know, being able to have a 
team of great scientists, 

957
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:05,760
engineers, operators, that 
investors and that was awesome. 

958
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,760
That chaos. 
Yeah, chaos. 

959
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,400
Yeah, Doing it with people doing
a mission where we're helping 

960
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:12,720
the war fight. 
It was awesome. 

961
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:16,400
And then to have a product that 
has been worked in places like 

962
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,120
Ukraine and the Middle East, 
like those were all all some of 

963
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:21,920
the things. 
So the area that I think is 

964
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,080
fascinating and doesn't get 
enough conversations is this 

965
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:30,400
debate between PLMS and and PLMS
personal language models or 

966
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,440
smart language models. 
NVIDIA just came out with this 

967
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:38,000
research report about how we 
look at like a gentic AI that 

968
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,720
the future of that is these 
small language models to be 

969
00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:43,320
efficient. 
So personal language models, you

970
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,280
know, entities like personal AI 
companies like that is really 

971
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,360
fascinating to me because it 
solves the security concern 

972
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,520
about, hey, this is my stuff. 
Like I don't want all of my 

973
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,760
information or corporation being
able to get accessed by, by 

974
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,880
others to be able to wall that 
off. 

975
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,040
And then you address the issue, 
personal language models, it 

976
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,320
addresses the hallucination 
issue because it restricts the 

977
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,000
ability to respond only to the 
stuff that it's been, it's 

978
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,880
ultimately been trained on. 
And so I think that's a, that to

979
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,400
me is an interesting, 
fascinating area in the broader,

980
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:20,320
the broader space around AI 
right now. 

981
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,360
Do you see smaller models 
having, you know, I mean, now 

982
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,720
that you're in back in defense 
world defense applications, you 

983
00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:27,440
know, for like edge cases and 
things like that? 

984
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,040
For sure, there's, there's, you 
know, in the, in the 

985
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,280
intelligence community, the, the
need and desire for these small 

986
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,160
language models is super 
important a lot because of the 

987
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,840
issue of security around the 
information that you're that 

988
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,840
you're putting it in right. 
And so, you know, also ideas are

989
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,960
like having a second brain, 
right? 

990
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,320
Like this is, this is a concept 
that I think is is is is 

991
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,480
definitely to be able to be used
in in defense and and 

992
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,000
intelligence. 
I wanted to ask one question 

993
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,160
just sort of like, I guess, you 
know, important in America right

994
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:02,920
now. 
Barack Obama, you know, 

995
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:07,360
retweeted Ezra Klein column 
today where he was talking about

996
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,440
ICE and sort of saying you could
see it as sort of like one of 

997
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,280
these optical illusion images. 
On the one hand, you know, Trump

998
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,240
got elected saying, OK, we're 
going to increase border 

999
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:19,960
security. 
We're going to like deport 

1000
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,240
people who shouldn't be here. 
Like obviously we're going to 

1001
00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:25,640
fund things like ICE. 
On the other hand, it feels like

1002
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,960
a very loyal Trump sort of a 
government apparatus. 

1003
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:33,280
I think ICE is like perhaps 
bigger than many of the, you 

1004
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,040
know, agencies and for entire 
countries elsewhere. 

1005
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,640
So it's enormously large. 
Obviously you dealt with this as

1006
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,000
sort of a having a border 
district. 

1007
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,920
How authoritarian do you think 
things are at the moment or what

1008
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,240
is what is your view on this 
sort of scope increase of ICE 

1009
00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:50,400
and these sort of authoritarian 
risk here? 

1010
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:53,480
Well, again, the the specific as
a client article. 

1011
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:54,520
I, I don't know, Yeah. 
Yeah, I know. 

1012
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:55,520
We. 
You. 

1013
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:55,760
You. 
You. 

1014
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,160
See this happening? 
Right. 

1015
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:02,080
And and so look at at the end of
the day, I've worked with the, 

1016
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:05,000
the men and women and ICE and 
they're doing their jobs, you 

1017
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,520
know, to make sure people that 
are not supposed to be in the 

1018
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,640
country get, you know, not put, 
you know, are deported or are 

1019
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:16,120
not here. 
And so has there been abuse of, 

1020
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:20,080
of power in in instances? 
Yes, You know, I talked about 

1021
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:23,320
that a lot when, when I was in 
when I was in Congress. 

1022
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,600
But look, with, with great 
power, you know, you got to make

1023
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:27,760
sure you're doing things the 
right way. 

1024
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,960
So the, the specifics that, you 
know, not really, really matter.

1025
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,360
When I, when I see things here 
in Texas and people that I work 

1026
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,120
with in Texas, they're making 
sure folks that shouldn't be in 

1027
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:39,680
our country aren't in our 
country. 

1028
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:43,720
Now, I also think on the, the 
flip side, we should be talking 

1029
00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:48,360
about is how do we get, how do 
we improve and streamline legal 

1030
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,960
immigration to get people here 
the right way, right? 

1031
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,720
I want want more foreign kids to
be going to our great 

1032
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:57,960
universities and when they 
graduate from our universities, 

1033
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:02,080
I want them to stay and go right
Lindo and all those work at 

1034
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,840
those companies that Madeline 
got to got to see. 

1035
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,560
And so, so, you know, we have 
benefited from the, the, the 

1036
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,640
brain gain of every other 
country for the last couple of 

1037
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,680
decades. 
And I want to continue to see 

1038
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:15,560
that. 
And I think both of these issues

1039
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,400
of making sure people that 
shouldn't be in our country and 

1040
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,360
that we get more people that we 
want in our country, you got to 

1041
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:24,800
balance those two things out. 
And and there may not be as much

1042
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,960
of the focus on the on the on 
the ladder, you know, in the 

1043
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,240
last couple of months. 
You think you'll ever run for 

1044
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:31,680
office again? 
Yeah, sounds like a guy who's 

1045
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:33,040
still thinking about running for
office. 

1046
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,080
Well, look, look, my, you know, 
the I am. 

1047
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:37,960
It's a fool's errand. 
Think about anything other than 

1048
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,240
the next election. 
And definitely, I'm definitely 

1049
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:43,640
not on the next one. 
Look, I'm I'm enjoying my time 

1050
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,160
at chaos, right? 
I just had a daughter. 

1051
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,160
She's she's six months old next 
week. 

1052
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,640
Congrats. 
No, it's, it's amazing. 

1053
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,120
My wife is due in October, so. 
We Oh, well, look, I'll give you

1054
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,040
a whole. 
I'll give you wonder weeks. 

1055
00:53:57,240 --> 00:54:00,600
The one weeks app is like is 
like a must. 

1056
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,240
Is it? 
Is this one of the photo apps 

1057
00:54:02,240 --> 00:54:03,600
where you sort of keep track of 
every? 

1058
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,360
Or no, this is like this when 
you, this is when your your 

1059
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,200
child is going to be fussy. 
This is a 2 week period where 

1060
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,640
your life is going to be brutal,
you know, and it kind of warns 

1061
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:14,240
you of the things. 
Two weeks. 

1062
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,880
No, no, like this two weeks and 
then the next two weeks it's 

1063
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:20,360
like I. 
Don't know a promise? 

1064
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,000
3 days. 
It's going to be cute, but get 

1065
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,160
ready because you know. 
I know somebody was just telling

1066
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,560
me, oh, you know, the first two 
weeks they lull you into a sense

1067
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:31,800
that this is going to be OK. 
You're like, oh, it's overrated.

1068
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,600
And then they're a terror. 
You know, I feel like everybody 

1069
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,080
has their own story. 
So I will say this, this will be

1070
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:42,760
my this is our secret weapon. 
Brown bear, Brown bear. 

1071
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:44,480
But the brown bear. 
Brown Bear. 

1072
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,760
Sure, Eric Carl can't beat. 
It yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1073
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,640
It's it's it's that has that has
solved many a problems in the in

1074
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:52,880
the herd household. 
Nice. 

1075
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:54,800
Thank you so much for joining 
the show. 

1076
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:55,800
This is great. 
Yeah. 

1077
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:56,960
Thanks, Will. 
This was a lot of fun. 

1078
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:58,800
We'll have you back next time. 
We didn't even get to discuss 

1079
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:00,640
Afghanistan. 
I kind of want you to solve that

1080
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,560
for us. 
Yeah, you should come back and 

1081
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:05,960
solve that and I'll let you know
if I'm ever visiting my uncle 

1082
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:07,600
anytime soon and back. 
Come on. 

1083
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,760
And when you come back to El 
Segundo, you know, come on. 

1084
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,400
Yeah, and then I'm going to come
to the Chaos office tour, if you

1085
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:14,520
love. 
That's right. 

1086
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:15,920
Well, hope to have you back 
soon. 

1087
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:16,920
Thanks so much for joining. 
Us. 

1088
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:17,640
Thank you.