1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,400 Is AI not nearly as powerful as some companies would lead us to 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:05,280 believe? We're recording this episode hot 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,240 on the heels of one of Andre Carpathi's AI State of the Union 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,840 interviews. I'm only sounding pessimistic 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,640 because when I go on my Twitter timeline, I see all this stuff 6 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,040 that makes no sense to me. It has us reflecting on the 7 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,480 vastly different takes people are having about AI. 8 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:20,680 On the one hand, you have the New York Times reporting that 9 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,080 America's biggest employer is moving towards complete 10 00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:26,000 automation, while on the other, we're seeing AI failing to 11 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:27,920 impress. In today's episode, we want to 12 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,320 look deeper into the power behind the potential a bubble 13 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,439 we're seeing. But first, we'll be discussing a 14 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:35,200 recent article written by Madeline Renberger in which she 15 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,880 takes a deep dive into how Andreessen Horowitz are making 16 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,080 off like such bandits. We'll look into the results 17 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,360 they're expecting to end the year with and what moves they 18 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,040 made to get nearly $25 billion in gains since its founding. 19 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:58,320 This is the newcomer podcast. All right, Madeline, we've been 20 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,040 diving deep into Andreessen's numbers over the last couple of 21 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,720 weeks on Newcomer. And couple weeks ago we had a 22 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,680 big story with a lot of their kind of unrealized and realized 23 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,720 returns. But the question that came out 24 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,120 of that story was like, but really how much was distributed 25 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,160 back-to-back to partner, sorry, back to investors, which we now 26 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,800 have a much more clear read on after the story that you and 27 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,720 Eric did so. This is real venture nerddom. 28 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,320 You know they absolute well. How is Andreessen doing? 29 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,880 Yeah, you can see markups, but then, you know, we get feedback 30 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:33,960 from our readers like, but what's the actual cash? 31 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:35,480 How does they? Mean the real Yeah. 32 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,680 What's a reasonable thing to want to know more about? 33 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,720 I mean, this is always the question about venture, right? 34 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,280 Especially in an era where, you know, there's not a lot of IP OS 35 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,400 and you know, actual cash returns are like a big question 36 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,680 for all of these companies. So what do we, what do we got in 37 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:50,920 Andreessen? What did we, what did we learn 38 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:52,280 from your piece? Yeah. 39 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,040 So it's really a tale of where they made money kind of lands 40 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,120 into two buckets. There's all of the funds pre 41 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,520 2014. So their first few funds, those 42 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,480 have done incredibly well. And post 2014 crypto has done 43 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,199 incredibly well. And that's basically the story 44 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,040 of Andreessen's actual cash back to investors. 45 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,720 I would say, you know, the first fund was spectacular. 46 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,320 It has returned as this was of course, as of end of 2024. 47 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,040 But they had returned 6X on the investment to investors from 48 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,040 their first fund. That included their Skype exit, 49 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,880 a couple other, you know, really big deals. 50 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,280 But like it's that they really showed their money there. 51 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,120 Like that first fund out of the gate. 52 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,600 Super impressive, kind of set their reputation. 53 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,160 Always good. If you start a venture firm, you 54 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,200 want to, you want to come out of the gate strong, and they did 55 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:42,880 that. And you should subscribe to 56 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:44,520 newcomers. You can see the whole chart. 57 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,280 We have all the numbers. You can follow along. 58 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,840 And I think one thing I'm proud of in this story is that we got 59 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,720 sort of the Cambridge Associates benchmarking data. 60 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,760 So you not only see how Andreessen's doing, but at the 61 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:01,120 same time what was sort of the top quartile and top 5% DPI 62 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,800 distribute distributed to painting capital for venture. 63 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,120 And you know, in this first one, Madeline's talking about 64 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:14,840 Andreessen is 6X DPI at the time of this, you know, September 65 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,560 2024. And then top quartile is 2.37 X 66 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:23,040 and then top five percent is 3.98 X. 67 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,000 So by any measure that first fund that came out of the gate 68 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,760 strong. The second fund, they're in the 69 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,160 top quartile, but not the top 5%. 70 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,600 The third fund they're in both the top quartile and top 5%. 71 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,440 So that's that's the early days. Yeah, the early days, super 72 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,960 impressive and yeah, they're basically like in the one, I 73 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,400 won't go into direct averages, but like the very top of 74 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,600 performance. These first funds, which is what 75 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,000 you obviously want to see going forward. 76 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,880 Obviously the closer we get to the present, you're not going to 77 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,360 see as big of returns, right. But even their, you know, core 78 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:02,800 2016 fund which is almost 10 years old has a DPI of just .3. 79 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,480 So we've gone from 6X on the first fund to .3 where you 80 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,240 really should start seeing cash. So that one has really 81 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,720 underperformed. I mean, it's below the median, 82 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,680 so it's not even the top half of performance. 83 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,079 With and those funds are bigger. I think a key thing with the 84 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:20,720 Andreessen story is that they get more and more money, right? 85 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,520 It's like they do well in the beginning and then they're like, 86 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,720 screw, like the benchmark model and this small model of venture 87 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,720 capital, we're going to get huge and we're going to raise a bunch 88 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,120 of money. And so part of what you want to 89 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,880 know as somebody covering Andreessen Horowitz, the, you 90 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,160 know, the most prolific investor now in Silicon Valley, founded 91 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,480 in 2009, you know, run by Marc Andreessen and Ben Horowitz, 92 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,600 this epic venture capital firm. You want to know it's like, OK, 93 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,520 they did well in his small venture capital. 94 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,440 Are they going to do well as a huge sort of money manager? 95 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,680 And those funds are not performing. 96 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,880 You know, the 2016 fund is worse than what you're saying, even 97 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,200 the median, right? So that is, yeah, it's not doing 98 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,480 great, right. And then a lot of venture, 99 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,600 Andreessen or or otherwise hasn't really returned a lot of 100 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,640 money in, you know, the last nine years. 101 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:10,440 I don't. Know I was going to say even as 102 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,720 you to your point, as they've gotten bigger, they've expanded 103 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,200 into other verticals. And so they have these biotech 104 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,720 specific funds and obviously we're kind of in a biotech 105 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,040 winter right now, but those have really underperformed even just 106 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,080 the rest of the Andreessen portfolio, they're not doing 107 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,000 well. I feel like, you know, they're 108 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,640 capital halls that they've, you know, raised multiple bio funds, 109 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,000 but even the first one is just not doing as well as the rest of 110 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,760 these. But I will say the big asterisks 111 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,000 and the big saving grace for these later funds for Andreessen 112 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,480 is their crypto funds. The crypto funds, which began in 113 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:46,960 2018, have just done just so much better than all of these 114 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,960 other recent funds, and they show cash back to LP's faster 115 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,320 than the typical venture cycle. Flipping tokens, you get you 116 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,080 invest equity and the you know, the businesses, but then you 117 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,040 also get these tokens and you can sell them. 118 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,880 I will also in our first and recent story, which you should 119 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,080 also subscribe to the newsletter to read, we had they're making 120 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,600 this staking revenue, which I only half understand. 121 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,960 I'm sure some crypto die hard will listen to this and be like, 122 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,000 duh, staking. But you know, they're they have 123 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,680 money riding in these crypto projects and they they throw off 124 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,920 millions of dollars of cash as an investment firm, just, you 125 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,920 know, holding tokens and getting staking income. 126 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,680 So they're, yeah, they're making a lot on crypto and it's it's 127 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:31,360 been a boon for the firm. LP, though, how excited are you 128 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,280 to be like basically getting paid back via crypto like token 129 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:37,480 flipping? I guess like money is money and 130 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,320 if you're getting what you want back, you're fine to a degree, 131 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,760 But it doesn't seem like you're really fully indexed like across 132 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,840 the tech, you know, ecosystem the way you might want to be if 133 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:48,240 you're just getting like, you know, basically coin flipped. 134 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,120 You couldn't get more index than Andreessen Horowitz. 135 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,120 I don't know. I reading this. 136 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,640 You know, if I was an LP, would I deploy in Andreessen? 137 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,080 I wouldn't want them to bully me into bio. 138 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,400 I guess that would be. But yeah, I think you get a 139 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:08,320 broad coverage of venture capital and private technology 140 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,640 for a fund that has proven that they can get sort of top access 141 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,600 and has top performance. And then you just worry that 142 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,960 this, I think you have to make this sort of question is like 143 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,720 is, has the technology business gotten so much bigger to justify 144 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,480 these much larger funds? And like, that's still playing 145 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:26,760 out. And that's the question. 146 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,080 You know, firms like CO2 and Tiger Global, you know, they 147 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:36,720 raise enormous funds and sort of the pandemic, everything's 148 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,280 digital frenzy of 2021, late 2020. 149 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,160 And those funds haven't done very well. 150 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,400 And so it seemed like, oh, we didn't need all that money. 151 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,720 Andreessen has sort of kept kept sort of growing. 152 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,080 And so I think there's this question about sort of large 153 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,000 private investing. But I do think on a relative 154 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,800 basis, Andreessen has done pretty well. 155 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:00,200 Right. It's too early to. 156 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:01,800 I was going to say, yeah, I agree. 157 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,600 I think for the early funds, I certainly would have wanted to 158 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,800 invest in those funds. What the big asterisks in the 159 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,560 big test is that it's too soon to have any measurable DPI or 160 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,080 cash back from these post 2020 funds. 161 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:16,640 And that's when everything ballooned. 162 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,040 So to your point, these mega funds, you know, off of the 163 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,160 success of these early deals, they're raising more and more 164 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,160 capital and they've raised, you know, they closed like a multi 165 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,600 billion dollar crypto fund. This first crypto fund that 166 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,000 returned super well was in the hundreds of millions. 167 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,840 So the scale of can they replicate these impressive even 168 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,520 token flipping returns, you know, well is remains to be 169 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,200 seen. And does that mean you'd go buy 170 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:41,200 in now? I don't know. 171 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,080 But they are in every major tech deal. 172 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,320 They do have the access which is part of the buy in right? 173 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:50,920 And I, I do think there's value if I'm a limited partner to, you 174 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,280 know, getting visibility like data bricks becomes a key 175 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,360 company for Andreessen Horowitz. If I'm a limited partner in 176 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,760 Andreessen, they keep backing up the truck into data bricks. 177 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,640 Maybe one day I say, oh, I should, you know, if I'm a super 178 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,720 wealthy, you know, sovereign wealth fund or if I'm a 179 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,880 university, I say, oh, we'd like to jump in and do our own, you 180 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,800 know, investment following on. So, so you get visibility into 181 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:17,840 what's coming up. And then you can try, if you're 182 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,680 savvy to sort of jump into winners yourself with the Intel 183 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:24,360 you get. So they're non monetary reasons 184 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,000 to invest. But but yeah, I think, you know, 185 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,440 the days of Journal, I mean, Andreessen Horowitz comes on the 186 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:36,320 scene in 2009 really loud and says like, you know, tech is 187 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,520 much bigger, this whole world's going to get much bigger. 188 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,680 And there are a bunch of the reporter class that was worried 189 00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:44,520 like bubble, bubble, bubble. And I think they were right. 190 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:49,560 Like 22,009 to 2016 was a great time to invest funds did well, 191 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:53,040 there is money to be made. And like a lot of the bubble 192 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,760 concerns were misguided. And so I think, yeah, looking 193 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,480 back on that period of worry on Twitter and, you know, just 194 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,840 among sort of the chattering classes and tech observers, I 195 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,400 think Andreessen was pretty right and the naysayers were 196 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,480 were wrong. I don't know, Tom, what it as 197 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,040 somebody who sort of watched the discourse, what's your? 198 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,880 Take on that. Give us the discourse, yeah. 199 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,760 Look, I, I think Andreessen, I think loud is the right word to 200 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,640 use, right? I mean, they came onto the scene 201 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:25,920 and and this was Marc Andreessen's software as eating 202 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,320 the world declaration, which did prove for a time to be 203 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,120 incredibly accurate. And sure, I mean, we talked in a 204 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,440 previous episode about some of their key investments that 205 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,760 worked out for them. There was Airbnb, a lot of the 206 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,920 partners, by the way, they were behind these big investments are 207 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,560 not there or the kind of not active with entries, which I 208 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:46,640 think is worth pointing out to me. 209 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,000 What's matters now, it's like we're talking about like you're 210 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,320 saying, funds that are over a decade old now. 211 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,320 So, so, and this just sort of is where my mind is going 212 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,520 constantly with all of these funds right now with AI is like 213 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,280 how strong is your portfolio within AI? 214 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,360 And if you look at, you know, the spectrum of their 215 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,600 investments that they have right now, correct me if I'm wrong 216 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,440 here, but the banner ones that I see from Andreessen right now is 217 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,120 they are an open AI. So they do have some, they do 218 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:13,560 have some, some equity there, whatever. 219 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:15,160 But they weren't like a core early. 220 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,600 They weren't like so right about opening AI and in fact their 221 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,680 crypto obsession blinded them a little I think to some of the AI 222 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:24,960 stuff like they pivoted loudly, but I think they there's a 223 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,360 little like, you know, we're decentralized and AI is 224 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,040 centralized and there so there's this if you're close, close 225 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,960 Swatcher, there is a little hesitation I think from the firm 226 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,200 before. They were late, but they've 227 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,520 bought up a pretty significant holding at this point. 228 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,040 They can make a strong case to their LP's that they have 229 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,560 exposure to to open AI. That should make them feel 230 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:47,160 pretty good. Right, and they're in, I think 231 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,320 they're big in XAI, they're huge thinking machines like, and 232 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,040 they're in, you know, a lot of, I think like Replit, they're in 233 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,320 Replit, you know, which is coding application type company 234 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:57,680 that will speak at Cerebral Valley. 235 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:01,640 But you know, they were in that, you know, several pivot or 236 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,320 several moods ago for, for the company. 237 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,320 So they, they have a, you know, portfolio of very recognizable 238 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,480 names that are in the Silicon Valley zeitgeist where you look 239 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,320 at, you know, some of these other firms, you know, if no, 240 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,440 no, I mean Sequoia. I'm, I'm more saying like 241 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,400 General Castle and Lightspeed, Like if you look through their 242 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,840 decks, which we have also published in Newcomer, the AI 243 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,440 names are a bit more random. And I think Andreessen's AI 244 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,320 investments are names that you would know partially because 245 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,520 Andreessen does a good job of making sure we hear them. 246 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,800 We do know that I actually think lightspeed is OK. 247 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,760 They're a little, there's a little bit of randomness with 248 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,360 them, but they're, you know, they're big in in they're an 249 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:42,880 anthropic. They they led some previous 250 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,040 rounds there so they can. And they're and they're like 251 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:46,640 their business. They're good at like real 252 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,280 business. So often it's like, Oh yeah, we 253 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,680 haven't heard of them because they're wonky going to make 254 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:52,000 money. Whereas the Andreessen companies 255 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,280 are a little bit more like in in the zeitgeist, I think. 256 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:55,800 Yeah. Lightspeed I think is in like 257 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,320 Glean and all other a couple of these other like enterprise 258 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,360 tools that are like doing quite well, yeah. 259 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,080 Actually, Eric, I'm interested in your thoughts here because 260 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,480 you have like a good kind of, you know, higher altitude view 261 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,000 of maybe where VC is trending. But do you think in some ways 262 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,680 Thrive has kind of taken the mantle of like the loudest, most 263 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:16,720 banner company oriented firm where it seems like they 264 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,360 basically go very heavily into things like open AI and in a 265 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,280 much more public way and probably more money than than 266 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,760 Andreessen has. They're in Stripe, obviously. 267 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,840 They've just done a good job of grabbing drives. 268 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,840 Crushies. I mean, I think like you, there 269 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,400 are in some ways like the benchmark of today. 270 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,360 They're not like Benchmark in that they have tons of money, 271 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,320 but like Benchmark in that they're small. 272 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,120 You get to work with the actual people. 273 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,320 There aren't a lot of like Andreessen is like who are all 274 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:46,960 these people? Like your names aren't on the 275 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,640 firm. Like I feel like Thrive is 276 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,000 small. You're working with somebody. 277 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,440 There's a sense that like you're working with the firm, like 278 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,560 you've got at it and like, you know, that, you know, Josh looms 279 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,680 super large there and Thrive has been able to pull in money from 280 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:00,640 everywhere. Yeah. 281 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,480 So and you know, I sort of teased them in one of the 282 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,320 newsletters that they were like the top tick investor of the 283 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,200 year. I forget what year that was, but 284 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,760 they've been, you know, I don't some random deals, but like 285 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,120 click house and there's just a lot of things where they were 286 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,920 saying, oh, this stuff is going up and AI has gone up. 287 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,760 You know, they they were bullish correctly. 288 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,280 And again, I think a lot of being in VC is being bullish, 289 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,360 you know, at the right time, you know? 290 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,120 They've also kind of taken the mantle of being like the string 291 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,840 pullers within tech, too. I mean, I don't know how much 292 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:33,440 you want to go into it on this episode. 293 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,080 And, you know, we've also been out. 294 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:36,840 We should tell our listeners that Eric's been gone for a 295 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,040 while on paternity leave. So what he knows about, you 296 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,560 know, anything happening right now is time he's taking away 297 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:47,400 from his new daughter. But you know, Thrive got this 298 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,080 very gauzy profile published in a magazine that I had, not 299 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,400 Colossus, which I I I don't really know exactly what it is. 300 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,120 Seems like some sort of a industry trade magazine that 301 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,960 publishes puff pieces on. It's very much in my media 302 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,920 entrepreneur radar. I mean, Patrick O'Shaughnessy 303 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,720 has a great podcast and he's built out a sort of media 304 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,360 company. Yeah. 305 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,240 Yeah. The article is very glossy, 306 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:11,920 though. Yeah. 307 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,720 Yeah, and, and, and, you know, I, I encourage people to try to 308 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,360 read the whole thing because I couldn't do it. 309 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,240 But, you know, the fact that this was, you know, and, and 310 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,760 they, they're very difficult to to profile as, as a fund and, 311 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,320 and they're, you know, jobs. They're definitely precious. 312 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,480 They're very precious, yeah. They they don't give a lot of 313 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,520 media openings, if you will. Yeah, and but to be clear, I can 314 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,560 say this on the show, I like a lot of the people there and and 315 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:37,480 when I've talked to them, they're they're very friendly. 316 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,520 It's not like they're a mysterious cabal of people. 317 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,760 They just are pick and choosey about their publicity. 318 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,120 But they kind of by doing this Colossus profile, they sort of 319 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,280 did the Andreessen thing, you know, like going direct, like 320 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,680 they kind of actualized it. Like whereas Andreessen spent so 321 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,720 much time building up a media entity. 322 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,240 I understand that was something that they owned. 323 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,280 But all the attention and momentum has headed, like we 324 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,360 say, toward thrive right now. And they're also getting really 325 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,000 nice articles written about at least Josh and the fund. 326 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,640 And to me, it's like you, you see them owning the moment so 327 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,000 much better than almost any other fund right now. 328 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,040 And. I wonder where somebody 329 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,000 Andreessen, to me, still has done the best on media. 330 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,400 Like, I mean, they're a machine. They're huge. 331 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,920 They're sort of synonymous with technology and venture capital. 332 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,040 It'll, it'll be interesting. I mean, you know, they're Mark 333 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,520 and Ben are still very active. So they have that going for 334 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,160 them. They have a podcast, they're out 335 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,040 there. You said earlier, like some of 336 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,360 the people who've done the key and recent investments you were 337 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,440 talking about like Jeff Jordan with Airbnb. 338 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,320 But I think for the most part, a lot of them are there. 339 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,320 I mean, Chris Dixon is the crypto guy. 340 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,360 He did Coinbase. That was key like Ben did data 341 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:47,720 bricks. Like I don't know a lot. 342 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,080 Some of the key investments they are still around the hoop, but 343 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,240 But Dr. Andreessen yeah, they're both they're both strong. 344 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,840 I'm not I'm not I don't think this like Colossus profile of 345 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,360 Josh. It like moves the needle that 346 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,319 much. I don't know I I think it's good 347 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,240 like Colossus like I think it's cool that they like prioritize 348 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,920 writing and like people can be pro entrepreneur. 349 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,960 I think we're in this era where it's like all the journalistic 350 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,520 defensiveness about like a sort of captured media. 351 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,040 I don't know, it's everywhere. Yeah, we talked about that a lot 352 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,400 last week with Mike Solana. I, I guess the issue with 353 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,840 Colossus was more, less the profile itself, which like, you 354 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,240 know, your mileage may vary on how much you like that style of 355 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,840 writing, but it was more like the declaration that like you 356 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,920 don't need media anymore and you know, there was a. 357 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,840 But I just think there's a sense among some of the text set and I 358 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,920 think arena, which is another one of these publications. 359 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,800 They're like, oh, the great thing about magazine is it's 360 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,120 like it's glossy. It's like somebody's smart was 361 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:55,880 paid to write something and then your picture is there and that's 362 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,480 that's it. Like, you know, it's like the 363 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,920 text is like, well, well composed. 364 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,160 I don't I don't know. I feel like they miss the fact 365 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,360 that it's like that somebody truly independent, that somebody 366 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:09,560 is hard to persuade was persuaded that you're like cool 367 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,000 and good. That's that's to me what what 368 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,840 matters in a lot of these media, like marketing media sort of 369 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,000 entities. They they give you the Sheen. 370 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,120 They're like, oh, it's the good writing. 371 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:22,400 It's glossy, like you're great because somebody who's totally 372 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,240 captured and is destined to say positive things about you said 373 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,760 something positive. Like I, I just don't think 374 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,360 that's going to have people know who's like independent and whose 375 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:33,880 voice is like, oh, wow, you had, I mean, you know, that's 376 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,480 certainly what I'm trying to create here, which is like, 377 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,040 we're, we say what we think, we criticize people when we're 378 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,840 persuaded. You know, Andreessen and I, 379 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:42,960 we've thought about tons of stuff. 380 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,040 They freeze me out all the time. Like, but I went and we say, oh, 381 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:47,680 the performance looks pretty good. 382 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,520 Like the, the idea is that should carry some weight because 383 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:51,960 it's like, there's this whole history. 384 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,360 I have plenty of reasons just to needle them, you know what I 385 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:56,360 mean? Whereas when you're getting this 386 00:18:56,360 --> 00:19:01,120 glowing profile from sort of an entity that's interested in 387 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:06,240 writing positive things about entrepreneurs and investors, how 388 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,800 much weight does that carry? Yeah, you're talking, I mean, 389 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,920 it's kind of style over substance, right? 390 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,000 Like the depth of where this is coming from. 391 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,880 It has all the trappings of, you know, a glowing magazine profile 392 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,400 with none of the actual gravitas behind that of, you know, the 393 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,520 solid reporting backing up the. Reputation and none of the oh, 394 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,720 this could have been a really negative piece and like they 395 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,240 were they like them, you know, you need a little bit of that. 396 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,880 It could have gone in different ways, right? 397 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,640 Right. Yeah, especially with, you know, 398 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,200 a successful firm or and a rich person who's married to a 399 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,600 supermodel. Like, you do kind of need to 400 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,360 overcome the inherent skepticism of a reader to make a better 401 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:45,000 case as to why you care about them. 402 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,160 If it's an audience that's already like, man, these guys 403 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,040 are great and look how great they are. 404 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,360 They they're telling me, I will say journalistically as someone 405 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:54,120 who covered, because one of the elements of the story of Thrive 406 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,640 was the role that Josh Kushner played in, you know, Sam 407 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,360 Altman's ouster from Open AI, exactly how much string pulling 408 00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:05,760 he did to get him back on board. I had some qualms with the way 409 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,880 it was described and I understand everyone is the hero 410 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,000 of their own narrative and right, you know, even though 411 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,560 it's. Funny that it's the same moment 412 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,160 Jared Kushner is clearly trying to get tons of credit for this 413 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,720 Israel deal. Both the Kushner's are like 414 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,240 savvy and that Jared's getting in the New York Times in places. 415 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,520 But both are clearly like moments of crisis. 416 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,760 We're we're here. Yes, you could really trace the 417 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,680 Israel Gaza deal back to the time in which Josh Kushner 418 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,160 personally got Sam reinstalled back. 419 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,880 That's the head of opening the eye and you're like, well, I got 420 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,400 to top this somehow. What's what's on my list? 421 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:38,960 Oh, wait. Peace in the Middle East. 422 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,320 Yeah, yeah, TBD on that one, by the way. 423 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,120 But anyway, look, I, I by the way, the ratings apparently go 424 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,120 down on the podcast when we talk too much about media. 425 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,440 So I don't want to. I don't want to. 426 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,400 Dwell too much on this one. I did it. 427 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:52,520 I'm sorry. It's my fault. 428 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,880 We can't help ourselves. It's navel gazing. 429 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,760 But but Andreessen look, I think the AI story is is still is 430 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,240 still like everyone else is still to be told they have some, 431 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,680 you know, exposure to a lot of top companies. 432 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,600 I'm interested to see where the XAX AI1 in particular will go. 433 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,280 But you know they. Lost Igor Babushkin, who was 434 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,760 like one of their key executives. 435 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,120 We're having one of their Co founders speak at cerebral 436 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:20,960 valley on November 12th coming up so I'm we'll we'll be excited 437 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,280 to hear how things are going XAI on stage. 438 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:30,000 But yeah, it's a, it's a company that I, you know, I think people 439 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,040 had underestimated and I was like. 440 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,200 I did I say it? Big things are coming and they 441 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,960 they caught up, but then I feel like, you know, we need to see 442 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,160 like revenue and stuff like that come out of the company. 443 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,680 Yeah, anyway, we'd love to do more stories on other VC funds 444 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,640 returns, TVPI and DPI. Please keep sending them our way 445 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:53,320 and. Subscribe and you know our 446 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,600 readers and our listeners, you guys are in the business. 447 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,760 You know as much about this as we do. 448 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,320 Please send me you know well your commentary is anonymous. 449 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:03,600 You know, if you say off the record, I'll take it off the 450 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,400 record. Please send me your observations 451 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,080 on what what you think the return where you think the 452 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,200 returns are strong and weak would be eager to hear from you. 453 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,240 We're just, we're all at newcomer.co, Eric. 454 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,640 Yeah, we all have takes. You know, yeah, feel free to 455 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,880 weigh in. Speaking of takes, let's check 456 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,880 in on the state of hype within AI and where we're at in the 457 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,720 cycle right now. It's been an interesting couple 458 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,400 of weeks on that front. So we had Andre Carpathy 459 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,200 appearing on the Dwarkesh podcast giving his, you know, 460 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,320 fairly clear eyed. I wouldn't say skeptical or 461 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,600 negative takes, but it definitely got a lot of people 462 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,640 in the industry trying to either defend AI or claiming that they 463 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,000 knew all this whole time that it was overhyped and not quite it 464 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,960 was promised to be. It's an interesting piece also 465 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,680 in the New York Times about Amazon and their plans to 466 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,000 automate a lot of their back of house processes, which is of 467 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,840 course, you know, robotics, but but AI as well. 468 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,520 And then a lot of stuff going on with open AI. 469 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,480 And I mean, they're just a non-stop hype train over there 470 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,640 with. There's a browser claiming. 471 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,000 Have you tried any kind? Of browser they're they're 472 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,680 claiming that they're solving unsolvable math problems. 473 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,400 It's basically just, you know, Matt Damon and, and and goodwill 474 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,280 hunting, but. So isn't Matt Damon good at math 475 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,040 in goodwill hunting? Yeah, well, so was. 476 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:31,440 So was the claim of open AI people? 477 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,600 Yeah, No, I think it is. Well, I think the Karpati thing 478 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,880 kind of summed up his appearance on Dork Ash and his statements 479 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,760 and kind of everyone's, you know, having a take about them 480 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,000 from both the hype and the skepticism. 481 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,520 It's not going far enough. It's sort of like if you give a 482 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,800 nuanced state of play in the industry to someone, everyone is 483 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,840 going to have a problem with it depending on where they're 484 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,080 coming from. Because he basically was saying, 485 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,520 I think, you know, that based on his understanding at the 486 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,840 technological level, things are very impressive. 487 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,720 We still have a lot to go bullish on AI overall, but AGI 488 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,960 is not going to show up in 2027 like Dario and some other 489 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,000 founders of the other big AI labs have said. 490 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,520 And I think, you know, that level of nuance was certainly 491 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,280 optimistic. He wasn't pessimistic. 492 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,800 I think it was framed everywhere like he, you know, is shitting 493 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,880 on the future of AI and thinks it's all wrong. 494 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,680 But. When Andre Carpathy speaks, the 495 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,960 AI world listens. You know, this is the guy who 496 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,360 came up with the term vibe coding. 497 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,720 I think he's very intelligent and very sort of plain spoken 498 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,160 and direct. He's not someone who puts all 499 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,600 these sort of false linguistical complications into his speech. 500 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,400 He sort of says what he's thinking. 501 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,080 He's trying to speak directly. And so I think just his style of 502 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,360 communication, his obvious intelligence and how close he is 503 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,800 to the development of this technology, people take what he 504 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,960 has to say very seriously. And he's not. 505 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,640 You know, we have people like Dario and Anthropic who, you 506 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,840 know, I like he's spoken at Cerebral Valley. 507 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,320 There's a lot to like about Anthropic but has made Santa. 508 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,800 Roman politically too. I mean, he's like, yes. 509 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,080 Yes, exactly. He's fighting with David Sachs. 510 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,480 Everyone who fights with David Sachs, you know, enemy to my 511 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,440 enemy. But the but you know, he's made 512 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,000 some Dario has made some pretty grandiose predictions about the 513 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,120 rate of AI improvement that I think at this point are not 514 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:30,680 coming true at at that rate of improvement. 515 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,760 And Sam Altman, obviously at open AI, you know, sometimes 516 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,760 he's saying we're overvalued and sometimes, but he's always like 517 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,960 talks in such big terms that it feels like hypey. 518 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,600 Even when he's not being hypey, it feels like it's big. 519 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,920 We need trillions of dollars. You know, we need more money 520 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,560 that's been ever raised sort of thing. 521 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,920 And so I think, you know, this Carpathy interview had a little 522 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,320 bit more realism, which is a stance that, you know, we've, 523 00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:00,600 we've taken in Cerebral Valley, which is just sort of like it's 524 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,320 clear if you really work with, you know, Chachi BT clawed the 525 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,960 models. There's a lot of capability 526 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,160 there that, you know, if it had a little more guardrails, if it 527 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,680 was handed to the consumer in a more prepackaged way. 528 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,160 It seems, you know, we've seen that with coding, with all these 529 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,920 coding applications, if if you do that work, you connect it to 530 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,200 data, there's a lot of value to be had there. 531 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,000 And so I think, you know, the Andre point of view was like, 532 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,440 there's still all this value to be had connecting with the 533 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,520 models can do right to, you know, all this technology and 534 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,200 all this data, but this sort of sense that they're gonna get so 535 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,960 much smarter. We're gonna have AGI tomorrow. 536 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,120 He was he was pushing back on. That I think the point that he 537 00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:45,720 really landed on here was in regards to agents, right? 538 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,320 There's tons of venture capital hype around agents. 539 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,080 Agents are being pitched everywhere is the next big 540 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,160 thing. He basically said the industry 541 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,320 is kind of overshooting the tooling with its present 542 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,040 capability, which anyone who's kind of used these agents that 543 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,240 are like claiming to be travel agents and book everything and 544 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,440 do multi steps for you new already. 545 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,200 And so it's kind of refreshing to have this very serious voice 546 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,080 of technical leadership in AI speak to you honestly and say, 547 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,840 yes, the agents are not quite there. 548 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,280 That does not mean that AI is, sorry to the skeptics, all not 549 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,240 going to work and won't ever get there. 550 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,040 It's just the timelines we need to be a little more realistic on 551 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,600 and we need to explore different technical angles to make these 552 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,360 things work. And maybe we haven't figured 553 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,040 those out yet. Well, the rise of agents was 554 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,560 something super interesting to me when I was covering 555 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,880 enterprises, enterprise businesses at the Wall Street 556 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,080 Journal, because you basically saw the trajectory of AI go 557 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,320 from, you know, Chachi, BT comes out. 558 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,080 It's a consumer phenomenon. Microsoft built their own search 559 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,840 engine and then basically Copilot was the term at that 560 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,480 period. These were assistants that sit 561 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,400 alongside you and can make you more efficient and can make your 562 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,840 job that much easier to do or help you write e-mail, shit like 563 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,320 that. And then with no major, in my 564 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,600 opinion, technical breakthroughs between the Copilot era agents 565 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,040 just sort of appeared on the scene. 566 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,000 And suddenly these things that were like debatable as to how 567 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,360 good they really could work became even more essential and 568 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,000 autonomous in what they were supposed to do for you. 569 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,760 And the technology didn't seem like it took, you know, a major 570 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,760 leap. And so I was kind of scratching 571 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,280 my head this whole time seeing Microsoft specifically go from 572 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,000 like, oh, we have this copilot tool and everyone should pay 573 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,960 extra for Microsoft 365 so you can use their copilot too. 574 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:27,360 Oh yeah. Now you're supposed to use 575 00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:28,920 agents where it does all the shit for you. 576 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,400 You know, obviously you want to show you that you're an AI 577 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,160 forward company because that you get a premium on your stock. 578 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,360 And so you have to make all kinds of statements when it 579 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:39,680 comes to utility of this shit. Like they were just starting to 580 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,120 figure out Co pilots and so now you're gonna start claiming 581 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,240 there's agents. I just updated my Apple 582 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,400 operating system, right? And if there's any company 583 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,440 that's trying to force this AI thing that doesn't seem to have 584 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,720 a view of what the actual value it drives, it's Apple, right? 585 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,880 It promised all these phones based on Apple intelligence and 586 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,880 they, they haven't really figured out what the value is. 587 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,120 And it's like, you know, they they mess with your contacts and 588 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,440 they say, oh, here's who we think. 589 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,240 But it's like, I had a nice favorite list. 590 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,360 It was organized how how is your like smaller, weirder version 591 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,960 better than like my nicely organized 1. 592 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,160 And so, yeah, IA lot of these companies have an incentive to, 593 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,160 to force an AI narrative. I mean, Tom, you just wrote 594 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,840 about Salesforce, which, you know, Marc Benioff has been like 595 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,600 agent force, agent force, agent force. 596 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,840 I mean, he's been the most sort of egregious in terms of just 597 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,760 having, you know, the name of his company AI. 598 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,520 You know, he's a, he's a sales guy, you know, he knows how to 599 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,920 try to associate, but that that sort of heavy-handed approach 600 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,160 hasn't resulted in a good stock performance. 601 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,360 No, certainly not because they're stuck in this position 602 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,440 where, you know, you see the rise of these agents or AI 603 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,360 companies. And it's like either someone 604 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,320 like a sales force is going to be able to, you know, leverage 605 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,040 off of that and be able to sell these tools to the customers. 606 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,600 Or there's going to be a whole new wave of tools built by not 607 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,160 sales force that are just going to replace all of SAS. 608 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,720 And you've seen there would be like a negative feeling about 609 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,160 SAS for like the last year or so because of that worry. 610 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,720 But the knock on sales force is that their agents don't work 611 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:14,520 right. It's just like you're selling a 612 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,720 product to people that have no real utility. 613 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,160 It gets stuff wrong all the time. 614 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,800 And, and I think that's what Carpathy was really trying to 615 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,160 get at in his comments was like, look, there is a world in which 616 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,800 agents have incredible impact on the economy and the way we do 617 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,000 work and, and jobs and and the labor grid and all of these 618 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,680 things, but we're not there yet. And if you're selling it to 619 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,000 people now with the claim that it's, you know, 11 tick away 620 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,280 from AGI and one tick away from being able to replace a huge 621 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,920 percentage of your workforce, you're bound to be disappointed. 622 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,240 It's going to fuck everything up. 623 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,160 And I, I don't know. You know what's interesting to 624 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,080 me with his comments is like how much of the hype around AI and 625 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,320 the amount of money that Sam is consistently able to raise or 626 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,240 stock jumps that he's able to generate through announcements 627 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,600 are built on the premise that AGI is just around the corner. 628 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,480 Like how much value is there in just a good utility for the next 629 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,360 5-10 years if AGI just doesn't exist on the timeline that 630 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:13,960 people like Dario have been claiming? 631 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,000 I. Know we still have some of those 632 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,920 Edzitron fanboys hanging around just being like, what is this 633 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,480 podcast I I still, you know, think the models themselves are 634 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,440 so valuable. I talked to Chachi PT all day 635 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,080 long like is it not like a key part of your lives? 636 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,120 Like I feel like it's extremely valuable on day-to-day questions 637 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,440 relative to like Google. I don't know, Yeah. 638 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,560 You guys don't agree or? No, I use it. 639 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,600 I use it quite a bit. I've used it for helping me 640 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,240 figure out like recipes and stuff. 641 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,680 And it's a much better search tool for a lot of things. 642 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,160 But it's not even search because it does generate for you what 643 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,640 you need, you know, and provide things for you. 644 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,080 And it helps me, you know, proofread and things like that. 645 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,720 I found it to be an incredibly useful tool. 646 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,440 But I guess I do agree too, I think Kaprathi was getting at, 647 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,960 which I think is where we land here is he, he was landing at 648 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,160 how these can be great assistance and tools and this is 649 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,800 an evolution and they are better. 650 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,800 But what the problem is is you want it to make fewer. 651 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,400 He actually wrote this in his post. 652 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,160 I want it to make fewer assumptions and ask, collaborate 653 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,520 with me when not sure about something. 654 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,280 I want to learn along the way and become a better programmer, 655 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,040 not just get served mountains of code that I'm told worse. 656 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,840 And I was like, that's kind of the through where we're kind of 657 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,120 digging out of right now. But. 658 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,360 But that doesn't mean at all that these aren't useful tools. 659 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,640 Right. What do you want? 660 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,560 What do you guys make about Dario and his claims 'cause he's 661 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,280 doesn't have an amazing track record right now of like 662 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,160 timelines of when stuff is going to happen. 663 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,440 And the thing that I keep thinking about was his claim, I 664 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,440 think a year ago that basically at this time now more than 50% 665 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:53,800 of code would be generated by AI. 666 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,560 And I don't know what the actual number is, but everyone was 667 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,920 dunking on that because we're clearly not even close to that 668 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,440 right now. And it reminds me of yeah, yeah, 669 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,080 and it reminds me of, you know, the, the, the self driving era 670 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:13,280 where there were also outlandish claims about the timeline it 671 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,760 would take for this technology to be St. ready and, and and and 672 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,560 they were way off. And I was super bearish about 673 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,160 that. To be clear, at the time I was 674 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,280 in Ubers in 2016, I was like, they're intervening all the 675 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,680 time. We are not about to be in Ubers 676 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,160 without. Well, Uber, Uber in particular 677 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,880 didn't have record audit like their tech was bad. 678 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,640 But that's when they had the acquisition was auto, yeah. 679 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,000 I mean, there was a period where Uber was really trying to assert 680 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,640 that it was going to be the leader in self driving. 681 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,360 And I think I mean, you know, and come at us at Zitron haters 682 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,520 or the haters that Edwardson brought to the podcast. 683 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,800 But like I, you know I. Think I'd like to say to them 684 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,320 they're they're shooting at us in the comments. 685 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,480 It's our fucking podcast. We can talk. 686 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,200 We're supposed to talk like whatever. 687 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:56,960 They just want to hand over the mic to somebody else. 688 00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,840 Yeah, anyway, go on. Yeah. 689 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,960 Get your piece on Eric that's. Your back, yeah, they're still 690 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,440 comments on that episode. They. 691 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,960 Can shit on me as much as they well, we're just talking about 692 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,920 AI bullishness or not. I'm fine with the negative 693 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,199 comments. I love the comments that are 694 00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,080 like, I can't believe they've left the comments open. 695 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,360 It's like, yeah, we can, we have thick enough skin that we can 696 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,280 take a little bit of criticism. What I don't get is that on my 697 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,159 on our own podcast, we're not supposed like, wait, just 698 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:26,400 because you know that guy and he's on our podcast, we're not 699 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,000 just like handing it over to him to just say whatever he wants 700 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:29,520 the whole time. I. 701 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,040 Don't know, I'd like to see the tail of the tape. 702 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,639 I like Ed and we've continued. We let him talk so much. 703 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,159 Yeah, he had a lot of time. He had like the time of 704 00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:40,639 possession was strong for Ed in. That episode. 705 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,560 So I have no idea a new. Objection. 706 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,360 Like if you're having like a through line argument, you need 707 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,760 to hold some. It's like we're arguing about 708 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,440 this thing and then you make points around it. 709 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,440 He would just be like, oh what about energy, you know? 710 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,760 Ohh anyway, I'm still still having flashbacks, clearly. 711 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,480 Look, anyway, I'll, I'll bring these haters back here and 712 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,040 saying like, I think self driving cars are really 713 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,920 impressive. I think I I do pay a premium in 714 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,840 San Francisco if I can take a Waymo versus an Uber. 715 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,120 And a lot of the promises, yeah, the timelines are way off, but 716 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,000 the technology did pan out to be non economical. 717 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,280 There's all kinds of issues around like, you know, how much 718 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,800 it costs to run these things. But like it proved itself at a 719 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,560 different timeline than was initially predicted. 720 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,520 And I guess the question is with with AI, you know, is there a 721 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,240 timeline that does make sense that that someone like Carpathy 722 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:27,960 agrees with where we do reach AGI? 723 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,960 Or is this capability of, you know, these models were Tachi BT 724 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,000 is now, which does seem like it's leveled off quite a bit. 725 00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:40,400 Is that enough to, you know, meet the, the hype of something? 726 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,040 You know, it may not be to the level of displacement, but like 727 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,760 there's a lot of utility. We're all seeing that in in 728 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,560 these tools. And like, where does evaluation, 729 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:48,960 you know, net out with that sort of thing? 730 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,080 And I don't think he has an answer to that, but that to me 731 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,080 is the question we should be asking in the next year or two. 732 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,520 Hysterical, though unlike self driving cars, our whole economy 733 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,520 seems staying on this question. Right self driving cars were 734 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,840 more of like on the side. These companies can do this. 735 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,080 This was a fad. And with this I do see. 736 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:06,800 It is. Right. 737 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,880 You know, kind of. Maybe you got a little annoyed 738 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,040 that it's like, oh man, these companies are getting profiles 739 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,080 that act like they're, you know, geniuses when it like they can't 740 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,160 do what they say they can do. But like now I think we're 741 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,160 underrating self driving cars. But the but the yeah, the AI 742 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,800 stuff right now, I mean, just Nvidia's the most valuable 743 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,960 company, you know, in the world. It's it so much of our economy 744 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,200 hangs on continued adoption of artificial. 745 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,240 And, and specifically CapEx spending on data center growth 746 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:39,920 and that's like I would say 80 to 90% the responsibility of Sam 747 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,640 and striking all these deals that are basically, you know, 748 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,400 deals upon deals of, of data centers to be built. 749 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,200 And so like, yeah, the point I guess you're making is like, 750 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:51,840 yeah, it does need to be more than where it's at now. 751 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,200 Like you're not going to be building all these data centers 752 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,520 because AGI won't exist like that is, well, we'd like to. 753 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,640 See another leap? You know, it's like, OK, Chachi 754 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:05,800 PD has been great coding's cool, but like, I feel like our minds 755 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,440 haven't been blown, you know, a little bit right? 756 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,280 I mean, we we get impatient. When's the next the video stuff 757 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,800 is mine the. Video I was gonna say sora was a 758 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,560 big leap for the new sora app it you can still which. 759 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,640 Is still number one on the App Store by the way I checked. 760 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,440 Is it OK? Interesting, yeah, I see. 761 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,880 I see the ones that make it over to TikTok but I I don't love 762 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,600 them like. Well, there was, I will say 763 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,960 this, this deep, this Sora video of like a a pastor, you know, 764 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,400 condemning billionaires went pretty viral over this week that 765 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,960 a lot of people fell for, including a lot of my. 766 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:43,640 Friends, yeah, I like they are getting reality. 767 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,960 Like I already hated the like I hate those. 768 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,520 The people love those like skits where it's like clearly these 769 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,320 are actors, but they get mad at it in the comments. 770 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,400 You know what I'm talking about where it's like, yeah, it's like 771 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,080 a husband and wife are fighting or something. 772 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,040 But like all the comments, it's like, you know, treat it as if 773 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,440 it was like real where they're like, this guy's a jerk or 774 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:02,640 whatever. You know, it's like, but these 775 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,240 are clearly actors. I feel like the sort sort of 776 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:06,680 thing is like the next evolution of it. 777 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:11,840 I just hate the media consumer that like buys into the fiction. 778 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,120 Like they don't, they don't care like if it's real or not. 779 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,160 They're like, oh, it feels real. And so I'll just react to the 780 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:18,520 character. Because it's like. 781 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,360 Wouldn't it be great if you. Know this is happening. 782 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,160 There's been a there's been a tick tock meme, I don't know if 783 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:28,200 you've seen it, of umm, putting various historical figures in 784 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,880 the NBA and talking about how like their career is sort of 785 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,480 ending. So it's like Queen Elizabeth and 786 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,320 like in Celtics jersey being like I'm just sort of old now 787 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,720 and like her like at the. Podium talking about. 788 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,520 Tiring. And then it cuts to it's really 789 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,840 fucking funny. I laugh every time like it's 790 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,000 there's one with Queen Elizabeth, Winston Churchill. 791 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,840 Who else has there been anyway? But so I watched them and I was 792 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,360 like trying to show Rosa them and she's like, this is stupid. 793 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,680 Stop showing this to me. But I and I feel kind of gross 794 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,240 after I watch them too. Like I laugh at it. 795 00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:01,600 And then in the moment I was like, this truly is slop. 796 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,600 I mean, this is the lowest form of of entertainment. 797 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,160 And I understand these things will evolve over time in terms 798 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,440 of acceptance culturally. But as it stands now, like, 799 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,040 yeah, it does entertain me. I do laugh, but I don't feel 800 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,240 good about it. But but the dream is that this 801 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:18,560 is like some Tom specific video, like the dead. 802 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,360 They've figured out some sliver of human psychology, and for 803 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,240 some reason you think this odd thing is funny. 804 00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:27,120 And then they can target us all and we get all these weird like 805 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,240 Freudian, like, oh, I like, you know, you, you have this weird, 806 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:33,360 I don't know, yeah, it's just funny to me that you, you find 807 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:34,720 it amusing. You haven't found many other 808 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,240 people who find it funny. It's like this is this is the 809 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:40,560 real dream of these AI generated videos that they can micro 810 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,360 target everybody and. Right. 811 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,040 And then? The panners to each of us. 812 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,480 And it's engineered to be addictive, which is why there's 813 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,760 like, you know, this existential fear in Hollywood over like, how 814 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,640 can we compete against this, right? 815 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,400 If it's all about a battle for attention, It's really hard to 816 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,720 say like original story versus thing that like is almost to the 817 00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:02,280 precision of a casino in terms of how it. 818 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,000 What is your attention amazing about language models that they 819 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,200 haven't got enough credit for is that they were all built around 820 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,360 the truth. They were trying to be like, how 821 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,640 can we not hallucinate? How can we be as accurate as 822 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,000 possible? Unlike, you know, social 823 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,320 networks, which were built on engagement. 824 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,800 And it's like, we'll deliver whatever we can get you to stay 825 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,800 engaged. Obviously, AI is more and more 826 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,480 involved in that, but we'll use the fact that the content has 827 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,000 been created by humans as our excuse that we don't have to 828 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,880 worry about the accuracy of these humans created it, even if 829 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,160 we decided to distribute some of it and not others. 830 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,400 And now obviously, something like Sora, you're like, screw 831 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,240 it. Like let's just do something 832 00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:44,080 based on engagement. And that, you know, that's a 833 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,520 dark path. Well, right. 834 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,720 And then the question is, and I talked to Varun Shetty, who's 835 00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:53,200 the head of media partnerships and Open AI about this. 836 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,880 Like are we supposed to view something like Sora as an off 837 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,040 ramp as just sort of like some entertainment to the side while 838 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,840 you guys are pursuing your path towards AGI or is it critical 839 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,560 towards getting there? And his argument was the latter 840 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,920 is that like, actually you can gain a huge amount of 841 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,440 information about the real world through generating videos. 842 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,600 And I don't know the, the training process that it takes 843 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,520 to do that, which is controversial on its own. 844 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,720 And so that point it's like, we'll improve it. 845 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,320 Like you guys have made this viral Sora app that has gotten a 846 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,280 ton of people addicted to it still number one on the App 847 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,800 Store. Like right now Open AI has the 848 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,960 number one and #2 slots on the App Store. 849 00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:34,600 Like you guys should really be getting towards AGI now, like 850 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,600 'cause this is all just an off ramp towards slop and 851 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,600 entertainment and replacing of social media at the very least. 852 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:44,560 That's disappointing to investors and, you know, society 853 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,280 at large. I'm sure it takes a huge amount 854 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,400 of GPUs to get this stuff done. But yeah, it's like, I think 855 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:51,920 they need to keep reminding people. 856 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,000 And I think it's good for people like Karpati to keep talking 857 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,720 about that is like, we know what the goal has to be. 858 00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:01,480 Let's keep in mind what the you know what the timeline is and be 859 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,360 clear eyed about overhyping it. But like this is not about 860 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,600 creating slob. I, I wanted to talk about, you 861 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,560 know, the New York Times did this story on Amazon that 862 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,480 basically said, you know, Amazon is set on automating a bunch of 863 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,720 its workers. You know, Amazon, I think is the 864 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:21,160 second largest employer in the United States, a company that 865 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,520 really believes in robotics, already has many robots and 866 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:29,160 they're driving to have even more robots doing work and that 867 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,200 this is part of their grand strategy. 868 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,440 And obviously there are robots that are not built on language 869 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,360 models, but you know, the improvements with foundation 870 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,800 models and language models have improved computer vision and now 871 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,880 in some cases they're powering robots entirely. 872 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:51,680 And so we're seeing improvements in robots relate powered in some 873 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,920 cases by AI that could mean more automation. 874 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,160 I'm curious what reaction you guys had to that story. 875 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,160 I mean, this has sort of been a long time coming for Amazon. 876 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,480 Like they have been building up their workforce. 877 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,840 It's always been this kind of flex situation where they, like, 878 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,640 over hire during the pandemic, and then they had to lay a bunch 879 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,680 of people off and that caused a huge amount of turmoil there. 880 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,320 But there's no question that long term, this business wants 881 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:23,400 technology allowed, you know, robots to be able to put stuff 882 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,680 on and off shelves or whatever. That's where it was going to go. 883 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,600 So I was kind of surprised to see people mad about it. 884 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:31,400 I understand, like, yeah, people losing their jobs is an 885 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,800 upsetting prospect. But certainly given that it's, 886 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,160 you know, to your point, probably one of the largest 887 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,880 employers in the US, but at the I, I guess I agree with you, 888 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,520 Tom, I was kind of surprised to see people kind of freak out 889 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,200 about this story in that it seems like that's definitely was 890 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,080 the goal the whole time. I don't know it, it's as if it 891 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,400 was something new, you know, as if it was something new that 892 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:55,800 automation is where this was going. 893 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,760 It's just smarter automation, frankly, for. 894 00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,320 A lot. I just hated how ominous the 895 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,040 story was. Like, I don't, yeah. 896 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,600 I mean, Amazon's going to try and do things as cost 897 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,440 effectively as possible. What? 898 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:08,320 What? What else? 899 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,280 Yeah, I mean, there, you know, and this one is more realistic 900 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,440 than, like, drone delivery or other things that, you know, 901 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:19,200 Amazon was more public about. But it's weird to see. 902 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,760 You know, I remember, like, height of the pandemic, everyone 903 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,760 was looking at the way that Amazon was hiring all these 904 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,240 people. And remember that movie Nomad 905 00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:28,720 Land came out where you had Frances Mcdormand's character 906 00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:32,600 working temporarily as like an Amazon, which was done with 907 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,680 partnership with Amazon. So it wasn't an anti Amazon 908 00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:36,880 thing. But we were all kind of 909 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,040 wondering like, Oh my God, is like that going to be the new 910 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,760 blue collar job for everyone across the country? 911 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,760 And I, it's weird to see people looking at a job that previously 912 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,400 we thought was like beneath the dignity of most human beings. 913 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:52,760 And, you know, they're anti union. 914 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:54,400 And that really pissed off a lot of people. 915 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:56,440 The working conditions are really terrible. 916 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,080 People were like, you know all the expose about people peeing 917 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,120 in bottles to get the delivery quotas met, that kind of stuff. 918 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,600 A lot of outrage about the jobs before. 919 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,080 Yeah, and you know, Amazon did respond to that stuff and start 920 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,240 paying people more, you know, out of public pressure from 921 00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:13,160 people from like Bernie Sanders. And remember AOC was 922 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,680 successfully got Amazon to not build HQ 2IN and around New 923 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,840 York, which kind of was an early win for her in the left wing 924 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,880 movement. So I, yeah, I don't know, like 925 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,240 this is just the direction of technology and has been for like 926 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,840 dozens of years. They've automated huge portions 927 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,320 of assembly lines in, in, in car manufacturing and stuff too. 928 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,040 I mean, this is not like skilled labor in most respects. 929 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,640 This is putting stuff in boxes. And I'd love there to be a world 930 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,480 where people that had those jobs had more intellectually 931 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,520 inspiring things to do or there's a Ubi that gets people 932 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,880 to do other things. I mean, that to me seems a more 933 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,240 reasonable conversation than worrying about, right? 934 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,200 Companies should automate boring, dumb stuff nobody wants 935 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,360 to do, and we should elect politicians who create a safety 936 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,560 net so that every American has healthcare and nobody starves. 937 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,360 But we shouldn't handicap Great American companies and say they 938 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:14,480 can't use current technology to, you know, get me my, I don't 939 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,000 know, battery packs here slightly faster or whatever. 940 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,640 I ordered from Amazon, you know, in the last last day or two. 941 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,160 Yeah, I don't know. And true leftists, I think, 942 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:25,720 understand that as well. I mean. 943 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,920 Do they, I don't know, I just feel like what annoys me about 944 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,160 this kind of story is the, you know, the haters from both 945 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,960 sides. The haters are like AI sucks and 946 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,120 AI is killing all the jobs. It's like, which is it? 947 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:37,640 That's that's what drives me crazy. 948 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,280 This sort of like just ominous people who feel like they're 949 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,440 driven by like ominous vibes and just like depressives reacting 950 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,760 to everything with that is their sort of lens and then find a way 951 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:53,120 to be negative about everything. That that's what drives me crazy 952 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:54,640 just socially and interpersonally. 953 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,440 I realize it's a small concern, but that's why these, I don't 954 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,680 know, the The New York Times story just had that sort of like 955 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,160 negative feel. It's like what? 956 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,800 Yeah. Yeah, I understand the concern 957 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,520 and fear about it. I mean, if we are talking, I 958 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,640 mean, there are cities that were basically destroyed economically 959 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,400 because of, I mean, globalization, but also the 960 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,440 automation of a lot of jobs Like Detroit, you know, in many ways 961 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,400 has not really recovered from many of these kind of third 962 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,760 party assembly line businesses, not, you know, meeting as many 963 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,360 people on the line as they used to. 964 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,280 And, you know, I, I don't think the job of a union should 965 00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,000 primarily be to stop the progress of technology. 966 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,880 I'm seeing a lot of this happening in Hollywood too, 967 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,760 right, With AI. It's like, what role does a 968 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,160 union have to play when you start to see a potential job 969 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:43,800 displacing technology come about? 970 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,680 And really, your job is to protect the livelihoods of the 971 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,120 people who you know are affected by it. 972 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,280 But trying to stop something from existing just doesn't. 973 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,800 It doesn't fit with like the March of time. 974 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,920 There's just not great success stories of stopping technology 975 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,000 from existing so. I well the worst ones are these 976 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,440 attempts to stop like ports from automating moving like 977 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,680 containers around which is just insane. 978 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,680 Oh, like the dock workers unions and. 979 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,000 Yeah, yeah. Trying to block, you know, the 980 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,160 automation of ports, which in our entire economy rests on 981 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,280 moving these things in and out. Yeah, I feel like they should 982 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,560 also be looking more at like the types of entities that are 983 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,120 buying ports in America, which are like also fairly insane. 984 00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:27,960 I mean, you have a huge amount of Middle Eastern money 985 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,040 essentially buying up and building new ports in the 986 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:31,160 country. It's the only people who are 987 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,920 investing in that sort of stuff. So I'd be more interested 988 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,280 following the money there rather than saying we need to protect 989 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,200 man. I don't want to get the dock 990 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,120 workers pissed off at us and get that. 991 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:44,520 Really. Comment section is full of 992 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:45,200 Steven. No. 993 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,520 People who the dock. Workers. 994 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:53,240 Finding our podcast No. I'm not a union diehard, I. 995 00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:55,160 Know I'm the leftist on this podcast too. 996 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,160 Wait, I'm the former Union maiden, but. 997 00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:58,760 Are you? Yeah. 998 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,960 Yeah. Maiden was the title. 999 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,320 Was my nickname. No, no, I was involved in the 1000 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,000 Business Insider union, but I feel like the attitude there has 1001 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:13,280 always been, you know, much more just, I guess not wanting your 1002 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,800 job completely automated. But it wasn't resistant to AI 1003 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,560 coming into The Newsroom at all. It was just like, how do we use 1004 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,400 this strategically? Do we use this to actually write 1005 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,480 copy? That's kind of the line that we 1006 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,240 land on, but you know, for brainstorming. 1007 00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:29,840 And I mean, I feel like as an editorial rule, you know, I 1008 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,600 think it's kind of where it's landed in a lot of other news 1009 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,080 companies to, you know, not having, you know, plug your 1010 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,000 story into ChatGPT and just publish it, you know, not being 1011 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,960 what's expected of you well. Within journalism to like the 1012 00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,560 types of jobs that an AI could do or would be doing or again, 1013 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,160 not very good jobs. I mean, certainly copy editors, 1014 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:50,280 yeah. I don't even think those people 1015 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,560 were part of the BI union, but it's like. 1016 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,320 They were but your article. Yeah, our human copywriter still 1017 00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,520 generally outperforms Chachi BT, but. 1018 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,160 They chachi BT yeah is not quite as doesn't catch all the pieces 1019 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,040 as as a. Copywriter also, it hasn't. 1020 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,280 It's hard to teach it, obviously our house style and things like 1021 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,240 that, but I'm sure that's solvable. 1022 00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,080 All right, anyway, that's our episode. 1023 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,520 Thanks Eric for for dropping on in. 1024 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:15,160 I think I don't know what are you going? 1025 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:16,800 To be in for a. Couple more episodes or what's 1026 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,000 the no? No, I'm back. 1027 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,880 Well, we're next. We're going to I think Cerebral 1028 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,800 Valley is going to take over the podcast. 1029 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,120 Max Child and James Wilsterman will be back on. 1030 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,880 We have, we love doing our draft of AI startups. 1031 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,480 So if you thought this was, you know, somewhat pro AI, we're 1032 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,560 about to take AI by the fire hose for the next couple 1033 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,080 episodes. So that'll be a lot of fun. 1034 00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:41,640 I mean, we're, you know, we're going to be prepping for all 1035 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,720 these interviews with the CEO's of top AI companies. 1036 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:52,480 We have execs from Anthropic, XAI, Replit, Versal Speaking and 1037 00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:53,600 so. We're Co versal. 1038 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:54,720 I'm sorry, I didn't know this is that. 1039 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,040 Yeah, Guillermo is speaking. All right, Guillermo, we got 1040 00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,760 some questions for you. Interesting photo OPS that I'm 1041 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,240 sure will come up at some point in the conversation. 1042 00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:04,200 She's. Just we, well, we have both 1043 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,960 Amjad at Replit and Guillermo Versal speaking, but I think 1044 00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,800 we're and they've feuded a little on Twitter over 1045 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,160 international politics, but that is not the theme of our 1046 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,400 conference. We're talking about AI, but 1047 00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:18,280 yeah, they. I don't think they're. 1048 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,200 On the same panel. No, no. 1049 00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,240 And I don't think we're putting them next to each other. 1050 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,560 This isn't. This isn't Dario and David Sacks 1051 00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:26,640 showing up at the Benioff party last week. 1052 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:28,680 Oh, how was that? Did they interact? 1053 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:30,760 Nope, Nope. And Dario? 1054 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,400 I overheard him. Here's a blind item for you. 1055 00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:36,400 Dario kind of muttering to, I believe his PR person. 1056 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:40,560 Why am I here? Oh my God. 1057 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,000 So we we love a good pairing here at here in tech, but 1058 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:48,280 specifically at the the newcomer sub Repo Valley conference. 1059 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:53,000 Yeah, so that'll be fun. And this comes out. 1060 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,040 Oh yeah, this will come out this week. 1061 00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,880 I, I should have a post in, in the newsletter about my child. 1062 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,360 I, I, I've sort of, you know, I, there's an Instagram post, you 1063 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,040 know, they're, they're bread crumbs, but I will talk about 1064 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,240 having a child and I've quietly been on paternity leave. 1065 00:52:08,240 --> 00:52:11,600 I appreciate you guys stewarding the podcast in my absence. 1066 00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,600 It feels you had some good episodes and I think we keep 1067 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,520 learning and improving the show and we've been punching up 1068 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,400 production and so excited to yeah, pick up from where you 1069 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,680 guys left off and keep keep growing the audience and 1070 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,360 improving the show. And we love your feedback. 1071 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,040 We subscribe to the newsletter, follow along and definitely tell 1072 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,160 us what's working. You know, we want we want 1073 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:33,920 feedback. What do you like? 1074 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,160 What don't you like? Send us an e-mail. 1075 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,120 Alright, thanks everyone. See you next. 1076 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:39,080 Week. Alright, thank you. 1077 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:39,880 See you. Bye. 1078 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,200 Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of the podcast. 1079 00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:44,080 If you're new here, please like and subscribe. 1080 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,680 It really helps out the channel. Listen in for new episodes every 1081 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,160 week, wherever you get your podcasts.