Welcome. All right, welcome to dead cat.
This is Eric newcomer Tom dote on is here and we've got Kara
Swisher care and I just left code though.
Much more intense for her. Kara what did you say?
16 interviews or how many interviews 1616 Yeah.
And they're all big ones. They weren't small, they weren't
like, you know sometimes you have a sort of a palate cleanser
but it was went from Pete. Buddha.
Judge to Andy Jesse to Bob Iger to Jony Ive Lorraine jobs and
Tim Cook to Amy Klobuchar. It just wasn't like they were
even not easy. High expectations have actually
different topically different. The minute after I finished I
did a pivot episode was oh my gosh back from his scot-free
August. So you know I do for podcasts
away. It gets really, it's fine.
I'm just fine. It's good.
That's how we want to you know code was design that everybody's
a headliner essentially some conferences have a headliner and
then a bunch of you know lesser lesser weaker speakers or
sometimes sponsors unfortunately.
And we just felt that the way we designed it was everybody was a
kind of a can't-miss for almost every single, right?
And then we had these interstitial ones that were
great. They were great this year and
we're going to piece. It will be out by the time, this
airs about code and it does, it does feel like so, Any of the
conference's you go to, the questions are for the people who
aren't in the know. And then, you know, the Hank,
there's the background hanging, but I do think you use such a
good job of making the actual interviews feel feel essential,
you know, that's how it was started Walton.
I used to go to a lot of conferences, there were tons of
them back then like agenda and some of them were good, you
know. But that most of a lot of it,
first of all is very sponsor driven.
And so they were sort of done in this PR kind of way and they
were very light interviews by people who weren't journalists
sometimes like, I mean, I like a lot of these Technologies but
they really can't how smart is your brain, how big?
All right, we're news oriented, you know, people copied us for
years, you know, whether lots of different people try to do
different things. Post us, including the Wall
Street Journal called this conference D, if you can believe
it, because they're so creative, they can't come up with
something fresh and new. So, you know, we just tried, we
just did it on me. And we actually changed over the
years to, we didn't keep to the same stuff.
We things didn't work, we change them.
M. But our whole focus is on the
audience and what they would like, you know, that's how,
that's how just like we think about readers.
When we there are a number of themes to come out of the
conference but part of the reason I wanted to have you on
and like a big one was sort of like Kara's last code like why
you know why is this sort of the last code and yeah I it had sort
of a you know finality to it but you've got so many projects like
our I guess that's what's this? Ask her why?
She had this very? She's a hit show.
Five days a week, right? I've done it. 20 years and
honestly I've delivered so much good content to you.
You all should stop bothering me.
But you know, every year that are you winding down or you
know, 50 know, just just other things interest me.
It's just it's like putting on a Broadway show every year and
it's sort of, can you top this? And last year was great.
We had Ilan and Sasha and, you know, Marc benioff etc.
Etc, just really great interviews but it just every
every year I guess I want to a new thing I want to.
I'm not Like a cook and I want to make a new thing that's all.
And I'm, you know, you run a successful restaurant or
whatever it is you sort of want to try something new and so
pivot was that for me, you know, and we did all things.
We did Rico decode and then I moved over to the times.
And now I'm back doing another new one at box, which is a
little different. I wanted to sort of change out
the way I do my interview shows, so I just do that all the time
when I don't. And I'm like, no, I think I'll
do something else. I'm very much like a cook.
I'm like, I don't want to make this cake anymore.
It's a very good cake and I hope you enjoy it.
I charge a lot for my cake is the pivot is Pivot.
Going to replace it in some ways or it's not replacement, it's
different. It's such a different product,
right? We're going to we did a pivotal
event that I liked a lot. It was really fun to do that
when I had a really fun time doing this one, but pivot, the
pivot fans are really rabbit in a way that I love and they're
much more of a community. Explain to me.
What, who's a typical pivot fan? Whether they had of the
characterize them? You don't know.
Literally, I like it. Some guy in Queens.
Well, what they do is they meet you on the street and want to
talk to you and says something, which is great, we love it.
You know, I was in in Los Angeles having lunch at this
place, and two people came up to me, and she was an interior
designer, and he was a, Was An Architect, you know, they love
pivot and then this guy in Queens.
He did a u-turn on the street and jumped out of the car.
I thought I was in taken for a second, huh?
Yeah, I could have done many good measure.
Just wanted to selfie with me. And he was a plumber.
He was a plumber. It was like so it's a Different
kind of, I would say it's probably younger but now we have
a lot of young people this year code who are pivot fans actually
interesting Leo, interesting and pivots broader, right?
I mean, you're sort of moving your transcending Tech in a
certain way, right? Or how do you think about?
Yes, it's funnier when it's got that weird relationship between
me and Scott, you know, which is charismatic.
It really is, it's a great chemistry that we have together.
And it's, I can also one of the things that, if you notice the
third day and I was thrilled at So many people stay one of the
problems with code was we would do the third day and I would
joke. This is a joke.
I make a many times. If I book Jesus, is the last
speaker. A lot of people be like, oh, I
have a Southwest flight. I'm like, but he's back.
It's kind of a big deal that Jesus is back.
Yeah, turned. He's also be tough to explain
that. Jesus is PR agent that he's not
the headliner, right? Yeah, right.
I know. But I would put them at the end
if people there, but they wouldn't they be like, you know,
I got to get boring for whatever, you know.
And so the last day of code, I changed to be more like a pivot.
Which is people. You don't know companies like
that woman was doing wave technology.
Was amazing. Like what, you know, wave energy
technology. She was fantastic.
She couldn't make the big stage of code because everybody wants
Tim Cook, right? So I can the pivot conference.
I can have one or two big Headliners and I we last year we
had Brian chesky and the head of Goldman Sachs and then we have
all these companies you you may not have heard of but her
fantastic. We can also be more diverse and
I don't just mean people of color and women.
Although I do mean that but age Conservatives, we had a bunch of
conservatives on stage, you know, just it was just it's just
an opportunity and I can't, I can't have conservatives the
code. I did notice that I invited a
lot. I can't I did last year I did.
It was sort of a Democratic primary element was I asked?
I asked, I asked, I asked, I asked I asked.
Yes, I got a lot of NOS. Zero Esperanza Santas, would you
like? Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the
problem. Right?
You would have had to have been. Well, I would you have done that
interview, I would have asked him directly, and when he was
factually inaccurate pointed out like everybody else.
I want, I'd like to get to what his mentality certainly, as he
was discussed a lot. Like I forgot who was talking
about how good he is. I think is Bob Iger at, you
know, the way he presents himself.
One of them was taught. Yeah, I remember them.
Try to remember, who said it you what was I think?
I thought it was about your butt.
Well, I mean, I agree. Certainly has a very interested.
I wanted one Santas because obviously everything's happened
with Disney and, you know, Successor.
Fuck that one up. Yeah, but actually does, he's
doing just fine. So you know.
Yeah. Wash is just the world still
there. Yeah, it's fine.
And their numbers were fine. They're actually their parks are
doing really well. You know, I want to divide
because I love I really have like talking to me over the
years and he's a little bit unplugged which says you can
season strong. He was my, my favorite just like
raw Charisma. Yeah, and also, he was like, oh
this, okay, that this is going to, he never would have talked.
Well, no, he did. He was always a really good
interview as a CEO, but now he's like, could give a fuck.
And it's like here. Let me tell you what.
I actually think who out performed expectations or let's
talk the clinical. Honestly people ask me that all
the time. I thought they all were very
good. I didn't find any of the
interviews like, oh, that sucked, you know, sometimes many
years that happens, but like Carly fiorina was just terrible.
For example, we got into a bit of a, of a, of a beef testy
thing going on but you know, I thought they were all great.
I can't think of one, I thought Cuban was, it was all people.
I'd like to talk to I actually programmed.
Because of people I like to talk, but I didn't program
people, I didn't like to talk to, you know what I mean?
I was like, oh, you know, I did ask Marc Andreessen he said no.
Yeah, I can way I think was the answer for that one.
Well, because and what's the reason for that, you think I
mean, he just feels I'm whatever he's doing now is little Act of,
you know, victim and right-wing. The, I don't know what he's
doing. What do you say on stage?
You certain stage? The people that Marc Andreessen.
It said the text set still like to because of Stockholm
syndrome. Do that was when there was an
article He said that many years ago.
Yeah. But I guess he's a through that,
you know, I knew him really well and he's been on stage at Cody's
give animate. The reason I want to have me,
gave me amazing interviews. We also had Bill girly coming,
but his mom died, and he was going to give this amazing
presentation. I love Bill girly.
Such a big thing for we haven't always agreed.
We used to argue about Uber all the time, but I was, I was sorry
that one didn't happen. That was one.
I'm really I'm hoping to have them on my new podcast because I
think he's a really interesting thinker and open to, you know,
he's an adult, you know. No, he's an adult like some of
these people, they're like, they do calculations like why should
I do it? I can you know go on Joe Rogan
and they'll just suck up every word I say and say it's
fantastic so they don't some people want to be challenged,
some people don't. And I have the people who like
being single Bill girly was my first article.
When I put up the pay wall has been very generous and is always
open. You don't have to agree with
him. I've gotten testing notes from
him or salty notes from him, but, you know, I want it again.
I wanted big thinkers, I would hope to bring back merrymaker,
but she was at her, Was she had scheduled something, she had
gone every year to code and are most years to code and given
this amazing internet translating from, from observing
it, I mean, it seemed like you guys were both.
I mean, maybe Scott more than you but we're very happy with
how Evan Spiegel the snap Co performed.
I mean he was just coming off of that earnings call.
Wait and say anything did a good job?
Yeah, I mean I don't know you're hiding the right, right?
Yeah and I thought Scott that last question about fatherhood
really shook him up. He wasn't Expecting it.
That's why I like Scott there he'll ask some right Outta left.
Brooke Brooke was like booing it.
I broke a it was a funny one. It's like I mean it's fun to
have those Outta left field. So I like Scott's in there but
he was tough on him. He was tough on him.
About a couple things. I was, I was I actually talked
to Scott, he's usually asks, those out of left field
questions, but he has some very pertinent management and stock
questions that I thought. Yeah, it's a pretty pivotal
moment for the company. How have you seen by the way?
You know, from the beginning when it was allthingsd up till
now the like Jim demeanor of the execs as they, you know,
approach these interviews. I mean, was it a bit Freer in
the past? And now, there's so much more
coached that they not. Not these people, I invited
people who weren't that way, who aren't going to.
I would, they weren't I wasn't having it, and they knew I
wasn't having it. And so, like, Mark Cuban wasn't
going to try to try to talking point.
But what about Sundar, Sundar pichai?
I mean, I feel like he's good at is, I know what you enjoy in the
moment then afterwards. I'm like, what did he say like,
well, It's true. You got a glimpse into him.
Now let me just say he's like that off the Record.
He's like that, you know, he's very first of all, he's a lovely
man. He's a very lovely sweet man and
he's not like the founders. I can tell you that and so who
it could be very difficult and just difficult.
And we've had them on stage, we have them together.
One of the, I think the first code we had them together but I
thought it was just interesting for people to see these people
and action, and he's just by Nature a cautious person.
So, I think it was he wasn't trying To spin necessarily.
It's he's very deliberative and so I want people to even if he
doesn't answer the way you want him to or get news.
Although by the way, Eric plenty of news, you're welcome, like
it's funny. Now I've totally evolved into
one of these people who's happy to have them for like The Vibes
rather than the news. It's funny how they answer,
right? Exactly what they're saying.
Right, exactly what they are. How they think about things
here. Let me give you an example.
Now, I'll help you. When I said here's a question.
Tasks are Twitter. He said, absolutely not.
He made a face and he was like, I wouldn't stay away from that
piece of shit. You know what I mean?
That kind of thing, right? And as Pinterest, oh my God, he
was so fun. So what now we, mais mind,
Pinterest ideas. Yeah, that was the worst
handling of a single question. I think anybody, he can't, he's
such a bad poker player. Yeah, I did it on purpose,
proceeding it with Twitter because then Pinterest was
second that we planned, right? So there's smart because we knew
he went so big on denying Twitter.
And then when she says of Interest, Obviously there was a
truthiness to it that it would seem like a real liar if you
went so big and then he was caught.
So it was it was well-structured question.
I also know that he doesn't like that other people don't mind
lying to me to my face. Steve Jobs, love to do it like I
am not making a phone Cara, I don't know what you're talking
about next year, here's our phone.
Well, I enjoyed that because you brought that up to Tim Cook Tim
Cook gave this elaborate defensive Steve Jobs saying that
basically, oh Steve hadn't committed to doing the phone yet
because he wasn't sold on the carrier.
Hers is UK. It was a funny.
Like why do you need to? Like it's like he was okay.
Yeah but I did that might be true.
They might, he might have been struggling with them for a long
time but they were still working on the he's still right?
Because he was working on a phone.
So I asked him. I went back and looked and I
said are you working on a phone? I don't know if you're going to
launch it, but is that an important thing for you?
I was very specific. I'm very specific, so they can't
weasel out of it, but in that case, yes, I saw him do that,
that's fine. Whatever I want to go back to
this idea of them, becoming a bit more closed off.
Time went on. I mean what do you think that's
a result of? Is it just the pr apparatus
around them getting to be more controlling?
They're just being more coach, just the tech, you know, posture
being so much more, you know, present in the National
conversation that these guys are aware that.
If they say things that can fuck up larger processes, I think
there's a bit of regulatory, you know, actually these are people
who talk more than most people more than most corporate people.
So that's to start with. They are that way.
But one thing that they do that I think is interesting is It's
not all of them. Some of them, I don't think
Mark, Cuban's changed and Iota really over the years, they
become surrounded by people who look them up and down and agree
with them be a minute. And so when someone challenges
and I don't think they know what to do, and I think they become,
you know, they get in these if your watch succession, one of
the things that I think is really a Jeanette, I know the
Creator's really that I talked about this, these spaces are in
there all Kashmir and comfort, but they get smaller and
smaller, and smaller over the years.
And so they're very comfortable and expensive, but Hermetically
sealed. And so a lot of these people are
surrounded by people who agree with them violently and so, and
because they get paid, they get, they get paid and they benefit
from those people, you know, Mark, you're so smart.
Of course, don't listen to Kara like and I've had some really
good points. He should have listened to right
over the years. And, you know, I've had
encounters like that with Mark Zuckerberg where I say that was
stupid and he's like, what are you talking about?
Everyone agrees. I'm like everyone who pays you
agrees like everything you say because you're in charge of
this. I don't work for you.
And so, So I think that's what happens more as they get richer
and richer and more Des involved with actual people, which they
go no from the plane, with the nannies to the, you know,
whatever, you know, from the plane to the car to their house,
to the security, they all security.
Now, they never did, it's a different life and then some of
them get out, right? Like, Bill Gates is much better
since he left, you know, since he's doing other things.
He's very easy to talk to. Actually, he was very difficult
to talk to, he was always difficult, that was not nothing
to do well, but You just learned how to talk actually, right?
But if they're by Nature like that they're going to behave
like that, right? If they're by Nature like any
Jesse was there since he was in high College, he's been an
Amazon since he's called, he loves his little country of
Amazon so he's he believes in it.
He actually does. And if you understand that about
them, I don't I think reporters healing to go oh the lying.
Oh talking points. I don't think that's.
You have to understand them as people.
And I think most reporters have a have a tendency to To not
assume their people, right? So I mean certainly I'm slowly
evolving to that. Oh no, it reflects their
personalities in some way. I mean I really like Twitter is
sometimes an interesting lens into these people's minds are in
a Securities. Jeff Bezos, right?
I mean, this guy forgetting. I was like, she doesn't like the
queen. Let us look like the fucking
Queen was weird. Was it tells police.
He's literally complains about tone and woke culture and then
he just woke this lady out the door, whatever.
Yeah, it's incredible. And it's Is it since he stepped
down as CEO, he's really let his Twitter game Fly, and it's so
much fun to watch. I mean, I really want to
encourage it from him. I do too.
Although I have to say, I don't think he's very good at it and I
know, but that's why it's not true.
He seems not very smart. He seems reactive which is again
incredible because this is a guy who was built up as like the
great business leader of our time and deserves credit for a
lot of things that Amazon is. But like you imagine that
everything that comes out of his mouth is like a pearl.
And in fact, it's just like, not, they're not posted.
Posters I can't imagine Bezos has been consuming the internet
sort of, in the constant I think it probably is oh I think he's
paying and he's like playing catch up but it feels like some
of these things seem, such obvious, like cell phones that
if you love spending time on any case, it's interesting because
he now just an inside his thing, he was always argumentative and
very difficult to talk to in terms of, he has a sort of ha
ha, laughs personalities, very difficult and sometimes
unpleasant person, right? And so one at a time, I
remember, I wrote something. And the Wall Street Journal,
they had gotten into trouble for paying people for promotion,
promoting products on the site and they had always had the
image of everything's equal. We're just putting it out there
and, you know, so they got extra money, if you put, I don't know,
some shampoo in a more prominent search position.
Essentially, because back then, this is early Amazon days but it
was getting payment from. It was merchandising is what it
was paid merchandising payments, which I had covered retail for
seven years and that's the end cap.
People pay to be in Supermarkets and cap, right?
Basic and I use that compares. I'm like, I covered this is the
end cap. This is what he's doing, and
then and he promised not to, he had I had quotes or he said, I'd
never do that. But I've never do it.
Retailed us and he did it. And I pointed out, he came up to
me to Ted and he started yelling at me, like, that's not good.
I am doing that and I was like, you know, relax, you know
sweetheart but you know, it's just it was really interesting.
So he's he is obstreperous. He's just hidden the
obstreperous - and we had we had a very big argument and then
sort of okay. But he hasn't that is his
personality. What you're seeing on Twitter is
what he's what I experienced back in the day, when he was
calling, we're constantly because he wanted press.
I think you also hit on a particular, a particular sore
spot for Tech Executives, which is when you point out that their
Innovations are actually things that the regular world, the
regular world has been doing for decades.
I find that they get. It sounds to me, like he was
just Veena, like, they were, and I'm right here.
Justina like they are. I think that's more, not that
they'd, he was an Innovative, but that he was doing.
Exactly what he said he wouldn't do.
And he was just like them. And so, one of my things with
all these people, when I covered them, they, you know, they sort
of think they hung the moon and aren't they Innovative?
And you know what, a banker's Innovative.
So is a pharmacist. If big Pharma is innovative,
they've come up with some pretty cool drugs and also problems.
And so the problem with tech is they get so licked up and down
all day long that they think they hung the moon.
And so not all of your finger there.
I mean, the tech media got so - like it got boring.
Well, I think I started it, but I agree.
I thought we were all gonna die because you were you sort of
burned down Mark Zuckerberg a little bit, right?
I mean, your Karissa, yeah, I mean - right.
Yeah. But I mean do you but now are
you, you're sort of, you're going back to the, why is my
think that was exactly the right thing to point out what was
happening to talk about? What about now?
Like, what's your mood at the moment?
I still, I still have all kinds of problems.
I think - compact not - its skeptical.
You have to be skeptical. I think sometimes snarky is
what's the point and it doesn't Fair.
It's actually unfair as you have to listen to their argument and
and you can't just assume out of hand that they're lying to you.
And I think one of the things I learned is reporter over the
years. I used to think, oh, they're
lying to me. What are they lying to me about
now? I think what are they lying to
themselves, right. What do they have?
That's right. And the second part is what do
they have to say what has to come out about them?
They what do they have to present?
You know Steve case for example this is way back used to always
Have to be right in the end. And he often was, by the way,
he's very prescient. If you look at some old Steve
case stuff, the stuff he wrote the last book, he wrote was just
dead on, is what's happening. Now, this was a long time ago,
he has a new book out, I think coming, but he always has to be
right in the end and I like that, I just as long as you know
it someone like I'm trying to think of someone who would be
Ted leonsis. I'm just using AOL people, he
really likes to be liked that was critical.
If he wasn't liked, he didn't, he felt uncomfortable.
And so if you figure out psychologically, What there the
thing that's going on with them, it's it's very it's a lot easier
to see them as people. And I don't mean to say, they're
not powerful, they don't aren't manipulative.
The companies aren't damaging. It's just that I think we spent
a lot of time on the stuff that doesn't matter and don't pay
attention to the stuff that does.
And that's, that's what I mean, skeptical is what you need to
be. Not snarky and not mean, not.
There's no. When I was going after Marissa
Mayer, I my premise was she is not qualified to run this
company. And also this company is headed
for the A sheep anyway, and there's bullshit about Reviving.
It is bullshit, and all they own is Ali, Baba, and that's what
happened and saying. You don't, you don't look back
at all that your Marissa coverage and think it might have
been a little bit mean, no, go read it.
No, no, I didn't. I never wrote about her clothes.
I never wrote about her. There were a lot of member that
glamour fashion, shoot. Everyone went on.
Yeah. Vanity Fair something.
The centerfold, I didn't write about marks looks ever.
I never wrote about his personal life.
The other thing that I remember once she was late, too, A
meeting at Cohn and all these people she was it wasn't a very
good CEO calling back clients. That was everybody did that
she's like speaker Yahoo right? You're right, we want depiction
of this but she wasn't it wasn't a depiction.
They they set it on the record. It wasn't these the you know the
heads of all these ad agencies, she she goes to them quite a lot
and okay that's that's she needs to.
You can't do that when you're in a business.
And so so she was late to a meeting.
Carbon had a habit of doing that, by the way to remember
that? She was, but she missed it and
because she was sleeping because she had jet.
I remember you writing about this.
I didn't write about it. I didn't I didn't because one I
thought maybe she's pregnant. I thought maybe she's missed a
meeting and nikesh Arora, Miss dozens of them.
So why should I call her out? When he used to do it all the
time. And so there was, there was a
lot, we didn't we didn't pick on, we only picked on the
business aspects of There are the problems we did not pick
them. Personally, we did not think
they were had necessary. Except for Travis, I do think he
had mal-intent, we didn't assume that they were bad.
People necessarily they just were most of them aren't by the
way. Yeah, a big question of tech
coverage that you're getting at, which is just do you think the
public and the press assesses, these companies based on a
score, keeping of their policy decisions and moral Rights and
Wrongs? Or do you think it's?
It's very personality-driven people's feelings.
Mark, Zuckerberg, see the Public's feelings about Mark
Zuckerberg, is him to drive their perception of Facebook so
much more than their understanding, of all the little
scandals that negates to, but it happened to Gates and then he
changed it because of all the philanthropy and happens to
people. And so Gates has shifted His
Image, right? Because all the really
tremendous philanthropies doing. It doesn't leave behind what he
did. Same thing with a queen like
today, I was watching Twitter was really interesting and you
have those who are like, which is fantastic, and then there's
others like, hey, Colonial dames Mmmmm right.
You know what I mean? Like, I don't forgive her for
that, and I get both sides, like you can't leave behind the past
that you had. Now she's not particularly
responsible for it and individually, but she was the
queen and presided over a lot of really brutal stuff.
Lord bound button and India. All kinds of stuff you can carry
two visions in your head of people, right.
I think, the reason everyone was paying attention to Mark,
Zuckerberg is because it's the biggest that's all, it's the
biggest, and it's the most careless, it was the most
careless or it has been. And so if it's the biggest, it
gets the The tension and they have to, that's what I was
trying to get at with several people.
Is like, they don't consider themselves powerful.
It's really a style were pirates.
Somewhat was almost comedic. They were all because they're
also worried about antitrust which was a big theme, you know
what I mean? Yeah I'm sure they're you were
good about servicing that but they were like there was a part
where Sundar was almost celebrating how poorly they were
doing in a cloud. Because somebody asked about
Cloud. It's like, you don't have enough
market. Share it.
It's like, see we're not a monopoly like don't worry about
it. I know it was like, do you see
as normally you think of them? Is like right?
I know but but normally they're Shilling you know how good they
are but like the big text or anything one percent of retail,
right. And I'm like 53 percent of
online Commerce. Yes.
But one percent of retail and so, you know, it's whatever.
As long as you, I like to hear how they defend themselves.
It's interesting. Yeah, it's always a Dance.
I mean, I remember, you know, covering snap when Facebook was
just, you know, reaming them with copying all their features
and everyone was telling me, you know, Facebook just wants to
kill snap and as No, they don't. They want snap to be there
because they're the perfect response to the fact that
Facebook is a monopoly. It's like, how could be a
monopoly this other company exists that has 200 million
daily users. But then of course, Tick-Tock
shows up with the thing that actually works, right?
And and then of course, marks got cards that say China.
China, if you notice, I didn't interview them in 2018, he was
already doing it China, China, China, China.
And by the way, I tend to agree with them on that but he was
doing it for his interests versus the real threat of.
But also remember this is probably after He you know,
spent that you're learning Mandarin and wanted to expand
Facebook into China. If that fell on its face is like
forget the national security thing.
It just like it's not a fair competitive landscape.
Anyway, I wanted to go back. You might agree with these tech
people. Sometimes you know, that's the
problem. Now, I'm allowed to, I can admit
it. You know, you can you miss your
opinions right? We did that.
That was the design of recode. All right.
I know that was the original design because I told you, what
are you? I copy you.
You know, it's good, it's good. We were at the Wall Street
Journal. I wrote a story about webvan and
I was like I did a ton of reporting and I was like this is
a fucking mathematical disaster like and doesn't and I don't
mean to say they're not going to be food delivery.
I don't mean to say that someday when everything aligns that,
it's not a great idea. But this particular company is a
mathematical fucking disaster and I was going to say something
like that and the journal and the editor sent it back to me.
It's like can you get someone else to say this?
I'm like no no I'm right I did the reporting reported analysis
and I called the to be sure statement to they always put it
to be sure. Sure, some people don't think
that, you know, what is one sexual assault away from the end
of their business, but they do not look like that hate the TV
shows, right? So it recode, I designed the
editorial is never a to be fuckin sure.
Sensei what you think. So, Peter Kafka was very good at
this, he'd write us, he'd break a story.
And he said, okay, this is what they mean, this is what they're
saying this is, you know, he would give you his knowledge and
experience. Based on reporting and then he
could say, like that's not. And one thing that drives me
crazy is often I'll say, I'll make a prediction about
something. It's not a prediction, it's
based on reported analysis and a several times.
Like, oh, you got that, right? I'm like, no, no.
I just just like, as if I was, I wanted to be a CIA analyst and
so I just did the work made us look like this when you could
get Anonymous sources. So that's what we did.
That's all we did it recode. As we like, Okay, Comcast is
saying this but really this is what's happening.
I think Puck does a great job of it actually you're right you're
on a reporter podcast and we're talking about hard questions.
So what's the, what's the status of recode?
I mean, it feels like re codes business is largely dependent on
the comp. No, no, it has nothing.
It's not affiliate hired so many great.
So many great reporters have come up through it, I guess is
recode succeeding, how would you think it's not linked anymore?
It's not people have, it's not the code is code is separate.
Yeah, from Rico. Okay, it's not the same.
That was when we had the recode business by itself that we sold
to box and then the code conference went into their
events division, whether they're going to do, the cut does
something, it's all in the events business now so it's not
affiliate it's not within that PL anymore.
And so the pnl of recode or the staff of recode is within box, I
think, I think that's that's.com and so that's where it is.
So it's not the code conference isn't financially lifting, the
other one and then Vox decides if they need more Tech.
Reporters if they can make enough, add money or this and
that I've stopped working really for recode when I started doing
the podcast, me and I took an intern and I went, I was running
it and I said, Jim I don't want to run, I don't like management
very much. I'm not bad at it but I don't
like it and I want to do this podcast thing and I think it's
going to be a big business. And so since I already had a
business that made a lot of money for them there, they tend
to believe me, right? They tend to give me the chance
to try things, and so I literally took it in turn.
He's now tweets. Greetings all time.
I love him. He's grow Noah:.
Yeah, he was great in that regard.
I'm like, I'm not going to run this anymore, you'll find
someone else and he was like, oh oh, because they'd like to keep
you in that job forever, right? And so, I was like, I'm going to
do this and I'm going to make you tons of money and it's make
sense of money. It makes sense about it.
And so that's that's all. And so, the podcast is in the
podcast of it, the lesson you learn you're saying about
yourself is sort of you wanted to be the Creator rather than
the manager I want to do. What I want to do, I don't know
what else to say. I just like it was going to be a
manager and you no longer I didn't really it just I had to
do it because that's the way it is.
You know, if when you're running things I mean, don't you like
working by yourself now? Isn't it?
Nice, I miss colleagues. I like things.
You know. Know I have a lot.
I have a ton on the podcast and then I like being in charge.
Certainly, I like that. Part of it.
I like my voice being sort of the deciding one and I can take,
you know. Yeah, I wanted to go back to
Andy jassy. I know he's sort of veered off.
That what did you make of him? Like to me, I mean you really
tried to give him the opportunity to say.
This is your company now, like, how are you making it yours and
he almost was like, oh, there's a lot of people who run it.
Like, I don't know. What did you make of that hole?
That gives me insight into him, doesn't it?
Jeff Bezos would have been, you know, he's narcissist in charge,
especially I noticed he's not a narcissist, I noticed it
probably will be. He reminds me a great deal of
such a Nadella, actually, who now has come into his own and
we'll take credit. But the first interview I did
was Sasha, after he got the Zeo ship was not a very good
interview, he was very deferential to previous
administration. Do you think that worry, they'll
get it taken away. It's like, it's not firmly in
their hands. Yeah, they're sort of like I
need to still worried about the old boss.
You know, the stock is down. They've got a lot of challenges,
there's regulatory scrutiny. He's been very aggressive behind
the scenes on this regulatory stuff.
Jeff never went to Washington. The sky goes all the time from.
I mean, I hear about him here all the time.
I think he's a much. He's a different personality and
I think it's very difficult if you're not the founder, because
when you're the founder, you can be any kind of asshole, you
want, right? Because you're the founder and
you're the God. And so, if you're the second
person, it's harder to hold on to like, say, it's interesting
as Sundar is the second person. Really, I wouldn't I wouldn't
count Eric Schmidt because I thought that was a Troika.
So I chose the second person. So it Ted sir.
And O's, although he was there very early and so's Jesse.
And so, I think they're not as confident as you think in there.
And they've got a sort of, Tim did a great job of it by the
way, think about inheriting from jobs, oh my God, nothing but
failure. Right.
There's if it goes well they're like oh it was jobs and if it
goes not wellö, cook sucks. And there was a lot of shake out
of Executives. Then several left, several big
Executives. Although, the main team I said
acute was backstage, I was like, oh, you were still here, still
here Eddy cue. A lot of the, a lot of the the
team is still in place, which is interesting.
But there was a huge amount of shake up before he found his
way, right before he found. Sway and he's, you know, 10x
that company's value, which is amazing.
I mean, with Jesse, I mean, this fits into sort of a theme.
I was getting out before like the union question, I thought
he's sort of secured himself and that he couldn't get out of it
fast enough. Yeah, but like, there's a
different sort of version of reporting.
Maybe. I don't know what we see on some
like Aaron Sorkin show or something where you just like.
If you think the union things the wrong thing they're doing,
like, you never move off of it. Or like, how do you think sort
of philosophically about that? I think he thinks that, you
know, In-seok. I think he thinks that demented
use the questioner like how long you like make them.
See you've got a point that Union suck, you know, what are
they done for me lately and I think they've done it to
themselves in many ways. Their if here's the two issues
is Amazon is paying people more, they do have better benefits
when they have gotten those through a union unions like to
sort of come, I got the Scout for you.
You know what I mean? The problem is which I point out
to him was the workers still then has no leverage whatsoever.
I know your sort of they rely on the kindness of billionaires
strangers, right? And there's reasons for them to
be nice. You keep people, you know you
you avoid regulatory scrutiny, the nicer, you are this and that
and maybe just in and of itself you build a better company.
People are actually happy there and so there's great arguments
to be made. What was interesting is
Christian Smalls showed up. I he called they called me from
the airport and he got there too late I would have like he was
there. He was great.
Yeah. But he but But and he does, he's
right? It's one, it's one Warehouse in
the country. It's this is as Scott points out
in today's pivot. It's not a, you know, it's not
the it's not the French Revolution happening.
It's just one same thing with Starbucks.
It's one store in wherever the heck that one story unionized.
And so I think what's I wanted to hear?
I think he thinks that I think he actually thinks that that
unions are useless. They're just a pain in the ass.
I don't think he's doing it because they are going to cost
them more money because I think what's going to what has to I
think Jesse and that case, I think the federal government
should just mandate $25 an hour, that's it done.
And then what do you need it? Union for and then you, then
unions have to reconfigure themselves into something that's
useful. So part of your answer is 0, the
amount. I'm going to hold them on.
It is how bad do I think the actual issue is versus service?
I want to think about it because I know he has a point.
He has he has a point at the same time.
He also is leaving out the very pertinent fact that they workers
have no Leverage. Around safety, they don't have
any transparency. They you know, the numbers that
they make them do you know, some of it of course is great fodder
for reporting, they have to pee in them, whatever they ha,
whatever. I think they don't have any
power, right? So that's what I find.
Interesting about it, not not whether Amazon pays an $18,
which is a much better wage than most people in retail margin.
Aren't you going to wait on this?
You just wrote a story about how like go pop tried to implement
Amazon's a sort of workplace conditions that like destroyed
the company. I don't know because they're bad
at it. Yeah, go puff, is is bad at it?
I mean, I don't know, there's a lot to.
There's a lot to unpack with this topic in general, I guess
we're not going to solve the union issue.
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess what I would be
more interested in a be hearing from them is how the anti-union
argument has shifted from a lot of these companies.
Because back in the day, they used to say Union is going to
get in the way between the bosses and the employees and
we're a family. Well family together and you
don't want to know. No no because what Amazon is
very craftily done. In my opinion is they've said
Ed, you're not going to work at Amazon warehouse that much,
we're gonna help you get a job to do things that you really
want to do. So why would you want to waste
your time and your paycheck, an argument going into a union,
when this is just a, you know, some sort of a launching pad to
you, you know, starting your Instagram, you know, influence
your career as like a you know dog makeup purveyor.
I don't think they say that but yeah, I know it should be right.
Yeah. And that's why I find it very
interesting that Amazon basically has decided that we
have a transient Workforce. Yeah.
And so a union would slow that down.
Yeah. And I think that would affect
their business model. So I think You know, I thought
that movie nomadland was very good because she didn't hate the
work. She was doing but it wasn't.
He could have gone a very different way that movie.
I didn't write. I know I, you know, and they got
a lot of flack friend, very light Norma Rae that.
Correct? But it yeah it was very
confusing and very complex didn't have a moral answer.
It was good. Yeah.
And back to the journalists aspect of it.
I mean we've harped on this on the show before because I you
know, covered labor for the last 18 months.
I think journalists really fucked up the story around you.
Ian's and Amazon because they made it seem like it was going
to be a slam-dunk proposition and every Amazon warehouse in
the country was going to unionize and when it came down
to it, you know, the big one Alabama, was a failure, the one
in, you know that Christian Smalls LED that was a success
but it seems isolated right now. And so I think reporters need to
do a much better job of understanding the sentiment that
people in the warehouses have before you start pushing your
own personal political agenda. Like I am pro-union I don't mind
saying that. You know, I do think they are a
good thing. I don't necessarily agree with
you but I Reporters are have no, I'm not anti and I'm Pro.
Good union, but a lot of Union suck.
That's really what they want, a good weekend in this country,
but yeah, Union sent some, it is very strong, you know, the whole
episode. You know, who's good?
Entertainment? Unions are really interesting.
They have more power. They have more leverage, like
sectoral. Unions are super interesting.
General, certain ones do very well and so I think it's not the
worst thing in the world to say, maybe y'all should rethink.
If we are sitting there, telling the Billionaire's to rethink
their business, unions are big businesses to and have been over
the years. Rethink your fucking business
because it's declining. Yeah, your pitch.
Can I ask you though? Just on the topic of hard
questions, though? You see are an opinionated
person. And you do want to press these
people, how much do you think about where the audience
sentiment is? And whether they're going to go
along with you on this Frame because like, look, a lot of the
people there. It's big business, it's not
cheap going in this thing, so it's people that have means
they're probably going to be aligned to a degree with the
founders. I know there are people that ask
hard questions and shit usually for their own selfish reasons.
You know. Like, you know, why does Goal or
why does Apple not allow? Like I like my brother asking
about the private jets, although he certainly would like one for
himself but yeah, they're on door but do you ever worry like
okay, if I go on too long in this line I'm going to lose the
audience and we're not going to have you know the kind of
revealing conversation that I actually want to get.
No. Yeah I think it's interesting
because what I think I think I do do something that I think
others do not do is one. I don't follow along the
questions. I had them there but I don't I
don't follow a script very much and I go off when I hear
something. Like I listen to what I'm
talking about and I could go off on a tangent when there's
something interesting and I think I'm a little funny.
I think I'm funny and the way I skewer people is a little
funnier and, you know, says I think I'm funny, but I think I
am yours and you're good to cut. You cut in with a short thing
that says, no, that's not or like something quick.
So you don't want to over inserting yourself into it, but
you're checking them alone. When I started code, I was much
more snarky. And I would say, I hate to say
this about a woman, but shrill and sing about myself your
words. Yeah, weird.
Yeah, I was shrill and and I think I learned there's a better
way to interview and it without sucking up, there's a way to
have a comp a conversation when you're in a regular conversation
with someone. That's how I think about it.
You know like constantly attack people you don't constantly kiss
up to them and so one thing that I think I do do very well I'm a
good negar I'm really good - white man.
I'm sorry men in general but I want to ask about a couple code
and all things D moments from past because I you know I sort
of see them as Formative in the way that journalists approach
the relationship with CEOs. And one of them is obviously the
moment where you're interviewing the stock and he, you know, he
he starts sweating like buckets on their is you and Walter
talking about privacy. And you know this was their
starting to make their March towards share everything and and
you know people were uncomfortable with that and
suck. I mean really he must have had
some sort of condition at the time because the guy was
sweating so much and and you know, he took off his hoodie.
You told him to take it off right?
Or didn't you? I did.
Yeah, I did. Well because I was going to
faint. Had some knowledge he had
fainted before over from I don't maybe Owen been out of someone,
he had panic attacks of some sort, and at this company
meetings, he had gotten lightheaded many times.
And so I was aware of that and he and his face, you couldn't
see it from where you were. I don't think you were there but
yeah, no. See the video of it is his face.
You couldn't see it as face went white and I've seen people faint
and so I thought, oh my God, I will say it, and then he'll be
on the floor and I never have an interview again, right?
The calculation is like good moments.
But yeah, I killed the most promising and entrepreneur in
Tech. Push the doing xiety attack
would not be enough to like lean down and touch him.
And the hold I was like, it was all going in my brain.
I thought he might faint. I thought he might think.
Yeah. But you see I thought you
handled that in a very you know, I think comforting way but also
it wasn't like, I'm sorry for having asked you the questions
that may be led you to having a panic attack?
It was like, do you need a moment?
But we're going to continue down this line of questioning because
they're important and it Human. Because why do you know?
There's no reason to. I mean actually Walt was the one
asking the questions but I felt it was.
Someone said it was motherly, which is interesting.
I mean, I am a pair, I have a lot of kids but I just felt like
this guy is obviously in physical distress in my really
going to like kick him in the nuts.
Like I don't really feel like that was it and I wanted to stop
it because he didn't, he was beside himself, he didn't and he
didn't want to admit, he was beside himself because he was in
public, right? And so I wanted to take one of
the reasons I made the the jokes about the oh the Illuminati.
And that Reason I took that hoodie is because it gave him a
second to write but looking at me, so they weren't looking at
him and then he he calmed down, like he calmed down and he
needed that because when people are in those panic attacks, or
or if ain't, they just need a minute, he needed a minute.
And he was a very young CEO, and I think he was embarrassed.
I mean, he, he wrote me a lovely note, after it, I'll tell you
that he really did. And because one person wrote me
a mean note, but it was one of their VCS and then about to
never show another When a motion during an interview with career.
No, then he did the one of the Holocaust with me where he said
Holocaust deniers, don't mean to lie and got him in trouble.
Well, that was just a horrible line.
That was fed to him, that just should have no, no, no, no.
You think that was spontaneous that wasn't alone.
Here's what happened. I was at most even Rachel,
Whetstone sort of saying, Rachel was there?
Rachel was. And what was happening is I was
asking about Alex Jones. I was not asking about Holocaust
deniers, right? And I Mark some very fast on his
feet. That's the problem.
I don't blame Rachel. Yes, just not fastened with
this, is the whole ghost thing was intentional.
Yeah. Yeah, no problem.
Here's the problem. I was talking about Alex Jones.
I was never talking about Holocaust, and I think they
prepped a lot of stuff with him. And he said, I'll take this tool
off the shelf, I'll pick them because, right, that talked
about the Holocaust, reflects the principles.
Well, exactly. So he, they must have given him
six or seven. And he said, I'll pick this one,
which was a mistake, and because he's not good at his feet.
And so, again, it's not the pr person's fault, it's his fault.
So we were talking about how Stones he He felt cornered and
he knew he was wrong and he didn't want to say it.
And so he, so he the thing he did and I watched him do it.
It was really fascinating and he goes because he's so like one
thing about Mark is he literally watched the wheels work and
you're like, no, don't do that. Don't do that.
Like, you can see him because
he's so bad. He's not smooth in any way.
He may have gotten that he steals not good.
No, and so he's so not self aware of how to handle himself
in that regard. So he he said, oh, let me give
another example. They must have done that, like
switch if you're in trouble, switch.
And so, which is what people do and he goes as a Jew, he was
like, it was as a Jew, I will talk about Holocaust.
That was what he was trying to do.
Even I a Jewish person, I'm not, anybody would be horrified by
but nonetheless, I get what they were trying to do.
And they actually don't, I mean, they're like, as a Jew thing is
a smart starting point, but I didn't expect him to go off
into. We need to give credibility to
the worst for me that I would be most.
By I'm willing to stand by. That is what he was trying to
do, but he's so ham-handed that will then walk down and one of
the things I did, I think that I have to say this was my best
moment as an interviewer. Wow, she said Holocaust now this
was it this was he goes Holocaust deniers don't mean to
lie, right? Right, something like that, it's
nice and everything. There's so much there that's bad
as someone who's running the most important technology
company and Communications coming.
The planet thinks that you're like, right are you can't be
that stupid. Oh, there you, good faith.
Yes. And so, he said that and I could
have said you fucking idiot. Of course.
They mean to lie. That's their business, they
killed people and then they lied about it.
Right? What they mean to like it's how
it works. I didn't say a word.
I went ha. I think they do.
But go on go on. That was the best thing I've
ever done in an interview before it was because then it was a
word salad of Sanity, right? And you and what that show that
word salad was So, he thinks people, I want you to hear what,
how on his feet, what? He's thinking.
We've got a problem Houston, right?
Because this is how this is the man who runs?
Everything, can't figure it out. He's not educated enough.
So that was what I was trying to show is that he was inadequate
to the task at hand that he was responsible for and I think that
did that beautifully. Do you think if he had a more
Clear Vision of online discourse and and censorship and the role
that face we could play things It genuinely be different in the
way that they in the way that things are handled on that site
or just online conversation and Rancor in general.
Yes, because I think what they were doing in other countries,
not this country because we got lots of outlets.
I think the damage they didn't, I think Francis how can was 100%
right what they did. And and it's been reported by
lots of people people who are in their Burma, right everywhere.
Everywhere, where Facebook is the internet.
They have caused Untold damage because they're sloppy managers
of their platform. That is the in there they are.
Are not good stewards of the thing they think.
And I think it's fine in this country and it's not great in
this country by the way. And that's why when Marie
arrests are brought me that data in 2015.
That's why I flipped on Facebook.
I mean, I was never that friendly to them, but I was
like, oh, oh, and she's like, it's going to come here?
Where the canary in the coal? Mine she had proof, she had
data, and they ignored it, they ignored it.
And so I was like, ha, why are they ignoring it?
Why don't they do sing about it? That means they are like
cigarette manufacturers, which marked.
Benioff said in an interview with me on the last portion of
this interview. I mean I want to talk about sort
of the fascinating sort of headline of this year's code
where you had Tick-Tock, well I was well, Tick-Tock was a theme
but I was coming. It's been a surprise, this was
coming, she supposed to be Johnny, I've been reflecting on
Steve Jobs, you know, on the one hand sort of adds that you know
the Use person. It's like, oh, we're going to
talk about sort of the past and not the headlines, but but then
it ended up being a really moving thing.
I think you you teared up, right?
Which is unusual is, I mean, I haven't seen all your interviews
but I, that was a touching moment.
Yeah, I don't know what, what was your sort of goal with that
interview going into it? Exactly that not me tearing up
necessarily I wanted. I know that what everybody wants
in the moment. What's the iPhone?
What's Dynamic Island, the fuck here?
It's like, I should be another one next year.
That's what I thought, 12, we set.
Our first interview was I have had a premise of the death of
Steve Jobs. Was a very big deal, in Silicon
Valley, a changed. There's a other lesser.
People, whenever you think of him, he was still had a lot of
really cool ideas. And you could argue with him
about it, and he liked debate. That was one interesting thing.
Other CEOs, don't like debate, he really did.
You guys definitely treated him like Jesus up there.
It was no no, no. Yes you did.
No. Hey what?
Tim Cook literally said, like you think he told us not to ask?
What would Steve Jobs do so we got there, there was that sure.
They knew enough to say. Okay, we're not going to treat
them like Jesus but he definitely had a sort of but but
st. Like iconic figures he was an
iconic figure and so he was the first interview.
Let me just tell you, he didn't need to come to Cody.
Came to all of the ones we asked him today and he was, he gave as
good as he got. I'll tell you that he never he
lied. Sometimes I said, yeah, I lied,
he would argue you would say that's disingenuous Genuis he
goes isn't. Oh, I guess it is.
I'm really manipulate it. You, it was such a pleasure to
interview him because it was, it was challenged, you right?
Wasn't? He was given his.
But I have to say, he wasn't, it was always fascinating.
It was always it insightful, that, that paragraph.
He did at one of our codes about privacy, go watch that thing.
That's a smart fucking person. Well, they're all great.
I mean, they're fun to I mean, really, that's what I mean about
Mark Zuckerberg. He doesn't have a, he should
have finished college, or at least read more, or something,
not College cause If Cliff left College, Steve was well, read
and thought very carefully and that's what I wanted to talk
about. The second part was it was the
first interview was Steve and I wanted to talk about his legacy.
Like and so and the last part is this, my fucking conference.
I'll do whatever I want, right? I want to, I wanted it to be
sentimental. I wanted it to be remember when
this was a lot simpler. Remember, when you didn't all
have all this money and all this power remember when you were
making things for the beauty of them, when technology, LG was
delightful, and it wasn't about a sort of rapacious suckage of
information or mother or a great moment in that interview, you
had Walt. Mossberg asked this question,
you know, would would Steve Jobs have been as obsessed with the
markets as the world is about Apple today and Tim Cook totally
agrees with that and says you know he would have been very
product Focus but but to me it felt like such an implicit
critique of Tim Cook that he is this Steward of a company.
That's So, rooted making money, I think they do.
If I had to pick companies that don't think about money, they'd
be on the top of them. I don't, I don't the one that
makes the most. I mean that's sort of they
didn't make a lot for a long time, right?
That's in their heads, like in the head.
So there was like, my grandmother grew up in the
depression and she the end to lots of money at you were a
house dress, right? Like all the time.
And so I think they they're not as fixated on stuck or else they
could think about. Let me go to someone else that I
interviewed recently. Monica Lewinsky, think of all
the things she could have done. Done.
And the things she didn't, she could have written a tell-all.
She could have done documentaries about Bill
Clinton. You could talk about Bill
Clinton's penis for years. She never, did she made choices.
She didn't think of the things Apple could do, if they really
wanted to make money, they could have gone to Facebook route.
They could have done, they could have fucked privacy.
Why don't we do we care? We're sucking up all this
information. Yeah but there's a whole this
argument that this privacy campaign is good for apples
bottom. It is good there Apple.
They roll out a new like you sort of joke, Tim Cook and At
their latest like, super Innovative company and then it
rolls out a new phone. Every year.
That's like income come out, like apple, I love Apple
products. He's a good Steward, but not
here, it's not like you could think about what they could
pick. That's all I'm saying.
And Facebook picked all those things and didn't mind it in any
way. Like yes, we're going to be a
rapacious that will cause them a information thief and they are,
they are there rapacious information thieves and so I
that's how I like to think of it.
And then that question, I think he's correct.
I think they If I had to pick a company cares about the quality
of the products them, I think. Evan Spiegel is another person,
even if he's not, now, he's an eye.
On the other side is getting his ass kicked, great products.
That pixie is a wonderful product.
It's just not a good business, that's different.
Those are two different things. And maybe someday these things
will be well. And I always think of, like, you
know, speaking of Apple, they made the Newton that didn't
work, but boy, was it directionally correct.
Right, there was another one General magic, the general magic
device. It was IPhone, did your swear
off asking about any beef between Tim Cook and Johnny
Iver? Well, you just didn't like it
because I know it's not really true.
That's a, that's a press. They love.
Who don't you get along with it Bloomberg era.
Its impact is not a guy who really liked goes off.
Doesn't he just doesn't, it doesn't cut it.
But seriously think about Bloomberg.
You guys are a fuck when you were there.
What a hot fucking mess? Those people hate each other.
What's the fucking difference? I don't care.
Did it matter. I love all the conflicts
interpersonal, conflicts are some of the best news stories
down, I think. Also was what he be there if he
they had a real beef now. Right?
I agree. There's always this sort of
like, oh, they have a beef but yet, they spent all this time.
Here's here's how I look at those stories.
Who the fuck cares, does it matter?
Does it matter? The same thing when we were
writing about Sergei sleeping, with the lady from glass, right?
We had heard a lot there. Google was full of that kind of
stuff, you know, for years. And some of it, we should have
covered by the way, much heavier.
But it was a, it was a different time.
Like there was a okay, Andy Rubin stuff.
Yes, we did. We did cover that we did cover
that But let me just tell you why.
Wait, but we absolutely, we broke that story because he was
sleeping with someone who was running a major Division, and it
had huge repercussions within the company including the
divorce on the stock. So it was a business story with
everyone sort of was like, why are you covering their
personalized? I'm like, are you kidding me?
This is a business story and so that's what I'm saying.
If Johnny Ivan, Tim Cook not getting along affected the
business. You sure as hell.
We never it otherwise, I don't care.
Can I go back? For a second to to Steve Jobs
and we can, maybe end up right here and his death sort of being
a significant moment for Silicon Valley, because this also
relates to the other great moment that you've had in the
code allthingsd, you know, history, which was, you know,
the the Bill Gates Steve Jobs interview in 2007, which is, you
know, I watched it the other day, it's genuinely moving.
It is was wonderful and my take away from it and I think that we
forget when you watch Steve Jobs, the guy is amazingly
charismatic in a way that I you just See among CEOs.
These days I mean like when he talks you listen, he knows how
to tell a story, you know, that, he means this things that he
says, which is not usually the case with a lot.
Even when he commits himself to mean the lies that he gave a
yeah, I'm not saying he's a truthful guy.
Think you're an adult Tom asked his question.
Yeah, actually I've gone back and forth as a tech reporter is
to like the role that Steve Jobs plays because people do deify
him because he is so much more interesting.
I think that a lot of the characters these days, but I
also see him as kind of a destructive force because so
many CEOs want to be like him and just aren't they don't, they
don't want to be like him. They actually want the, the
shitty Parts. Like, look, if you go back now
and look at everyone is so difficult.
I'm like really like, on any given fucking Tuesday, March
Elon Musk has 17 more offensive things in Steve Jobs, said his
whole life, right? And Steve Jobs would face his
critics. Whereas Elon is now he just
teaches Rags them. I can't imagine Steve Jobs
behaving. I don't think he'd like it at
all. He'd be like what the What are
you doing, dude? Like at the stuff around the car
driving. I was joking about.
He like act like a jerk, but who cares me parked funny?
Like, that was always this to remember.
That was a story. Yeah, sure you guys parking in
like, other people's spaces and the handicapped.
Right. Whatever.
It's so minor. It's so like he shouldn't Park
in a handicap gum, but he's dead.
So, here we are. And so, one of the things that I
think has happened is they tried to be cheap versions of him and
shitty versions of him. And he wasn't a shitty version
himself. He was warts and all very Uncle
to be obstreperous. But he was also passionate and
creative and interesting and constantly thinking and he could
be an asshole to these guys are mostly an asshole and can be
creative with the one that disappoints Mimosa Ceylon who I
actually like, I had them last year.
I thought about having them this year, I asked him and then I
thought no, no, maybe not. I didn't want to deal with you
wanting this year. This is a perfect time to him.
He said, no, but nobody challenges this guy.
I mean that would have been valuable you want just goes on
the fucking all in you know. For instance, they just asked
him. Nothing for the following three
minute. I agree.
But you know what?
I just didn't want to listen to him.
I've heard enough from him at. That's what I felt like.
I could. He's not, he's doing stuff in
plain sight and I don't think he'd do any insights and we
would argue and people might be entertained, but it just would
be. I feel like if you're going to
do it, you need to beg him to take it good night's sleep
beforehand, like half the time, I just was like, you know what,
when you come back to and by the way, I find him to be a genuine
Visionary, I really do when he could When he wakes up and wants
to act like a man, he can call me.
That's how I feel like it. You know what I mean?
Like, and if he wants to make dumb mean jokes, I like them.
I like them. Those are funny.
But some of this is bullshit and I just didn't want to hear it.
I just didn't hear it, he didn't say yes, right, I do, I wrote
him, I asked him. So, I mean politics was such a
huge part of the conference. You had the candidates, but then
there's this, also, the tech political moderates, dealing
with politics. I mean, you had Mark Cuban shirt
of professing to hate. Yep.
Democrats and Republicans. Somewhat equally probable.
Is sort of most negative comments or about Elizabeth
Warren. And then in the the yeah, which
I thought was strange personally but the oh, I know given his
political views anyway. But then on the the Tim Cook
Jony Ive Laurene, Powell jobs interview, you know, Laureen.
And Tim both said that they thought Steve Jobs would have
been upset about the political partisan moment, but I didn't
feel like they spelled out whether they would you be upset
about trumpism cancel culture? Or like what?
I felt like and they didn't really they weren't willing to
go to her and say what they do. You think it was trumpets?
Trump is MM. Oh Lorraine has been very on the
record. She she has but Tim Cook
obviously I mean this in a world already has to deal with the
federal government gives. No you can't just go like
because he's a stock price Optimizer.
I mean that's that's the girl. It's not his personality to he's
not he's very measured. He just is this.
Just the way he is. You may not like it but that's
what he's like. He's Hiding or anything else is
just not, he doesn't want to just want to gauge it would,
he's not very, he's very supportive of gay issues, but he
could be very like I'm a big gay stop hanging with the gays but
he's just not, that's not the gay.
He is so whatever. I don't know what to tell you,
but I think that she was saying, one of the things that was
really striking about Steve Jobs.
And most people don't know. This is, he had a relationship
with Rupert Murdoch and what he was trying to do was change his
mind. He always tried I'll be like,
no, this no that you're being very negative instead of saying
you suck, Suck and you're like the way I liked with Jon
Stewart, did you know, you're ruining our country to Tucker
Carlson many years ago he did a very behind the scenes trying to
convince Rupert Murdoch. What he was doing was dangerous
and that's what, you know, Anand was talking about with
persuasion and some people today, that's not good enough.
We have to all have to be like pitchforks at each other.
That's the only way. The only way is going to be a
Civil War and that's that. I think it would have been an
interesting moment which she was saying is even here.
Who would engage with people. He didn't agree with couldn't
have handled. This moment would bet would have
been opposed to Donald Trump would have been vocal about it.
I think that's what, that's what it, but it's all.
Yeah, I don't know. I feel like a Logitech 73 otic,
what's happening with. I think it would have appalled
hemp and the time I knew him, he was an odd.
You never knew where it was coming from, but one of the
things I'll tell one story. The Last Story I told one story
when he said came out and told me ping sucked the day they
announced. It, which I loved about that.
It's like it does sucks. Doesn't I'm going to get rid of
it and he he came out one time and Walt wasn't there.
He loved world. You know what I mean?
And he when he saw me he's like he's at first I was just
irritating and then he kind of liked me, but I don't really
care. It's a get whatever, he but he
liked Waltz, he just like, well better, that's all they had a
really interesting and unique relationship because they had
been young and fucked up when he met wall.
Like he wasn't Steve Jobs, he was on the ropes when he knew
wall at the Thing with Gates, you know, he started the company
when he Wold and stuff. So they had a very different
relationship and he came out and he was looking for a while, you
can see he's like, I want he wanted to see what Walt thought
of is what he made and he wasn't there, she always liked his
inside. He was always looking for that.
That was 100% true. He said, he always wanted.
He always called people Lorraine talked about that.
He did. He called people constantly.
He wasn't as confident as he seemed, he definitely wanted
people to know what they thought, what they made and this
and that. And so he was looking for Walt
to get An insight into what they had done and they had done a
thing, an iPad that you could use with the keyboard and I
think it was one, something like that, it wasn't a keyboard but
it was in it and stuff. And so he was sort of looking
for him. He was sort of crestfallen that
wasn't there. It was like, oh okay.
Yeah I'll talk to you. You're the closest thing to
Walt. And so he came up to me and he's
like, where's Walt? And I was like, okay, we're
going to be talking about Walt and I said he's in Paris with
his wife on vacation. He hasn't taken a vacation 100
years and she wouldn't let him Take the laptop.
So he wouldn't work because that was, you know, this was pretty a
lot of this stuff and but she took the iPad that has the
keyboard, and he wanted to see if he could live without a key,
you know, that life, you know, with he could do it and I said,
but but and it's working because this is working really well,
actually, he's finding it very useful to type on the iPad if
you've ever seen Waltz very fast on an iPad.
And as I said in, she's pissed, she's pissed right now because
it's working, and he looked at me, He goes, I could turn it
off. I have to say, I like you.
Oh my God, I said you could he goes oh yeah.
One call afterwards but and and malevolent way, but
it was one of the I love that woman.
Yeah, he could really tell a joke and that also comes through
in your interview with him and Bill Gates.
Yeah, he's he's done. Really fun day.
One for many years now. Ha ha ha that God Gates behind
the scenes, it was even better, wait back in the green room
without I'll be writing about in my Memoir, but it was, they had
such a relationship, but when I said what?
Wait, I'm sorry. Did you say he called Bill Gates
gay? I didn't know.
This is what he did. I said, what something about
your relationship that you don't that people don't know.
And he said for a long time now we've been married And it was so
great because he knew that Bill Gates, wasn't anti-gay, but he
was uncomfortable, many straight men are when you make a remarks
at her and so, Bill Gates, you can see if you were sitting us
in. His eyes was like what do I say
if I say something anti-gay, I can't do that and yet I'm not
gay. I want to say I'm okay.
And he was like huh? He got him he performed him and
see jobs. Love doing that to Bill Gates.
Well yeah, did it all the time. My favorite thing?
I think this is from the Walter Isaacson Steve Jobs biography
was saying that the big mistake that Bill Gates made is that he
never took acid in the 60s. Uh-huh.
And that's why I never had a creative bone in his body.
True is interesting. Cause I don't think any of those
people on the stage of like the Walter Isaacson book,
interesting. Lee enough, I think one of the
things they people got wrong, think it's accurate.
Some of it, some of it, it did, here's what I don't think it
got, and I like Walter, he's working on a Ilan book, he's
with the enormity of time. Now, just crazy.
Walters always in the right place the right time or the
wrong time, whatever. So by he's a very talented man.
Yeah, I think what it got wrong and what many stuff gets wrong
and I set it on stage. Is everybody thought?
Steve Jobs was heartless. He was not heartless.
He was, he had too much and it manifested itself in good ways
and really unpleasant ways. And so when he didn't like
something, it came out stronger. Like he just don't say, like I
don't want to say he cared more, but he cared too much in some
cases and I think he he was too passionate and And he was
aggressive in that way. And I think that there's a very
big difference between being heartless and having too much
heart. It can manifest itself, doesn't
make you nice if you have too much hardness.
And so, I think that was again, like I was saying and I'll end
on this. People are complex, these people
are complex and now they have enormous power.
And no matter what happens character outs, right, your
shitty person and then you suddenly get a lot of power.
Hello, Donald Trump. Your he's a shitty pretty be a
shitty person poor, right? He's Is it a shitty parents?
He never was hugged as a child. He was also a bad seat of power
you know you can sort of laughs at own Trump but with power like
you're saying so yeah it because it's so that's what these people
are like and so they. So I spend myself understanding
them as people a lot of time and I don't want to hug them.
I don't want to be their friends at all.
Some of them might be. I've liked I like quite a bit.
I'd like Mark Cuban. I really do.
I like them personally I always find something interesting
talking about but some people are like, Brian chesky.
I really like him. I like him.
I can see, Trying and struggling to be a better precise like Evan
in that way. And by the way, Evan and I
started off being very testy with each other because of a lot
of his frat, bro, thing. But he's involved in the way.
Yeah, exactly. Right.
He's better. Yeah.
If I think it would hurt a lot. Same thing with the same thing
with the with gates in a weird way.
Boy, did we have a real problem with each other?
We could talk to you. I don't want to take you anyway.
Thank you. I see you've got me talking.
See, I'm not a memoir. Yeah, when's that out when I
write it and I finish it, I don't know.
It's going to be funny. I'll tell you that it's going to
be fun. I'm not settling scores I mean,
well, I will and by being funny but, you know, cool.
All right. Tell me about you, Eric.
It's gonna be my time with area. Exactly.
That's volume to reporters. Thank you.
Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Karen anytime.
Goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye,
goodbye. Goodbye.