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Welcome. 
All right, welcome to dead cat. 

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This is Eric newcomer Tom dote 
on is here and we've got Kara 

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Swisher care and I just left 
code though. 

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Much more intense for her. 
Kara what did you say? 

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16 interviews or how many 
interviews 1616 Yeah. 

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And they're all big ones. 
They weren't small, they weren't

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like, you know sometimes you 
have a sort of a palate cleanser

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but it was went from Pete. 
Buddha. 

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Judge to Andy Jesse to Bob Iger 
to Jony Ive Lorraine jobs and 

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Tim Cook to Amy Klobuchar. 
It just wasn't like they were 

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even not easy. 
High expectations have actually 

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different topically different. 
The minute after I finished I 

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did a pivot episode was oh my 
gosh back from his scot-free 

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August. 
So you know I do for podcasts 

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away. 
It gets really, it's fine. 

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I'm just fine. 
It's good. 

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That's how we want to you know 
code was design that everybody's

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a headliner essentially some 
conferences have a headliner and

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then a bunch of you know lesser 
lesser weaker speakers or 

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sometimes sponsors 
unfortunately. 

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And we just felt that the way we
designed it was everybody was a 

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kind of a can't-miss for almost 
every single, right? 

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And then we had these 
interstitial ones that were 

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great. 
They were great this year and 

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we're going to piece. 
It will be out by the time, this

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airs about code and it does, it 
does feel like so, Any of the 

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conference's you go to, the 
questions are for the people who

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aren't in the know. 
And then, you know, the Hank, 

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there's the background hanging, 
but I do think you use such a 

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good job of making the actual 
interviews feel feel essential, 

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you know, that's how it was 
started Walton. 

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I used to go to a lot of 
conferences, there were tons of 

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them back then like agenda and 
some of them were good, you 

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know. 
But that most of a lot of it, 

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first of all is very sponsor 
driven. 

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And so they were sort of done in
this PR kind of way and they 

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were very light interviews by 
people who weren't journalists 

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sometimes like, I mean, I like a
lot of these Technologies but 

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they really can't how smart is 
your brain, how big? 

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All right, we're news oriented, 
you know, people copied us for 

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years, you know, whether lots of
different people try to do 

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different things. 
Post us, including the Wall 

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Street Journal called this 
conference D, if you can believe

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it, because they're so creative,
they can't come up with 

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something fresh and new. 
So, you know, we just tried, we 

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just did it on me. 
And we actually changed over the

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years to, we didn't keep to the 
same stuff. 

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We things didn't work, we change
them. 

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M. 
But our whole focus is on the 

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audience and what they would 
like, you know, that's how, 

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that's how just like we think 
about readers. 

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When we there are a number of 
themes to come out of the 

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conference but part of the 
reason I wanted to have you on 

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and like a big one was sort of 
like Kara's last code like why 

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you know why is this sort of the
last code and yeah I it had sort

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of a you know finality to it but
you've got so many projects like

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our I guess that's what's this? 
Ask her why? 

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She had this very? 
She's a hit show. 

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Five days a week, right? 
I've done it. 20 years and 

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honestly I've delivered so much 
good content to you. 

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You all should stop bothering 
me. 

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But you know, every year that 
are you winding down or you 

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know, 50 know, just just other 
things interest me. 

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It's just it's like putting on a
Broadway show every year and 

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it's sort of, can you top this? 
And last year was great. 

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We had Ilan and Sasha and, you 
know, Marc benioff etc. 

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Etc, just really great 
interviews but it just every 

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every year I guess I want to a 
new thing I want to. 

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I'm not Like a cook and I want 
to make a new thing that's all. 

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And I'm, you know, you run a 
successful restaurant or 

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whatever it is you sort of want 
to try something new and so 

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pivot was that for me, you know,
and we did all things. 

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We did Rico decode and then I 
moved over to the times. 

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And now I'm back doing another 
new one at box, which is a 

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little different. 
I wanted to sort of change out 

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the way I do my interview shows,
so I just do that all the time 

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when I don't. 
And I'm like, no, I think I'll 

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do something else. 
I'm very much like a cook. 

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I'm like, I don't want to make 
this cake anymore. 

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It's a very good cake and I hope
you enjoy it. 

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I charge a lot for my cake is 
the pivot is Pivot. 

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Going to replace it in some ways
or it's not replacement, it's 

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different. 
It's such a different product, 

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right? 
We're going to we did a pivotal 

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event that I liked a lot. 
It was really fun to do that 

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when I had a really fun time 
doing this one, but pivot, the 

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pivot fans are really rabbit in 
a way that I love and they're 

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much more of a community. 
Explain to me. 

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What, who's a typical pivot fan?
Whether they had of the 

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characterize them? 
You don't know. 

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Literally, I like it. 
Some guy in Queens. 

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Well, what they do is they meet 
you on the street and want to 

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talk to you and says something, 
which is great, we love it. 

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You know, I was in in Los 
Angeles having lunch at this 

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place, and two people came up to
me, and she was an interior 

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designer, and he was a, Was An 
Architect, you know, they love 

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pivot and then this guy in 
Queens. 

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He did a u-turn on the street 
and jumped out of the car. 

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I thought I was in taken for a 
second, huh? 

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Yeah, I could have done many 
good measure. 

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Just wanted to selfie with me. 
And he was a plumber. 

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He was a plumber. 
It was like so it's a Different 

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kind of, I would say it's 
probably younger but now we have

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a lot of young people this year 
code who are pivot fans actually

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interesting Leo, interesting and
pivots broader, right? 

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I mean, you're sort of moving 
your transcending Tech in a 

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certain way, right? 
Or how do you think about? 

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Yes, it's funnier when it's got 
that weird relationship between 

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me and Scott, you know, which is
charismatic. 

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It really is, it's a great 
chemistry that we have together.

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And it's, I can also one of the 
things that, if you notice the 

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third day and I was thrilled at 
So many people stay one of the 

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problems with code was we would 
do the third day and I would 

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joke. 
This is a joke. 

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I make a many times. 
If I book Jesus, is the last 

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speaker. 
A lot of people be like, oh, I 

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have a Southwest flight. 
I'm like, but he's back. 

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It's kind of a big deal that 
Jesus is back. 

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Yeah, turned. 
He's also be tough to explain 

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that. 
Jesus is PR agent that he's not 

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the headliner, right? 
Yeah, right. 

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I know. 
But I would put them at the end 

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if people there, but they 
wouldn't they be like, you know,

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I got to get boring for 
whatever, you know. 

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And so the last day of code, I 
changed to be more like a pivot.

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Which is people. 
You don't know companies like 

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that woman was doing wave 
technology. 

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Was amazing. 
Like what, you know, wave energy

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technology. 
She was fantastic. 

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She couldn't make the big stage 
of code because everybody wants 

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Tim Cook, right? 
So I can the pivot conference. 

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I can have one or two big 
Headliners and I we last year we

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had Brian chesky and the head of
Goldman Sachs and then we have 

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all these companies you you may 
not have heard of but her 

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fantastic. 
We can also be more diverse and 

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I don't just mean people of 
color and women. 

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Although I do mean that but age 
Conservatives, we had a bunch of

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conservatives on stage, you 
know, just it was just it's just

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an opportunity and I can't, I 
can't have conservatives the 

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code. 
I did notice that I invited a 

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lot. 
I can't I did last year I did. 

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It was sort of a Democratic 
primary element was I asked? 

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I asked, I asked, I asked, I 
asked I asked. 

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Yes, I got a lot of NOS. 
Zero Esperanza Santas, would you

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like? 
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the 

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problem. 
Right? 

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You would have had to have been.
Well, I would you have done that

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interview, I would have asked 
him directly, and when he was 

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factually inaccurate pointed out
like everybody else. 

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I want, I'd like to get to what 
his mentality certainly, as he 

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was discussed a lot. 
Like I forgot who was talking 

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about how good he is. 
I think is Bob Iger at, you 

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know, the way he presents 
himself. 

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One of them was taught. 
Yeah, I remember them. 

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Try to remember, who said it you
what was I think? 

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I thought it was about your 
butt. 

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Well, I mean, I agree. 
Certainly has a very interested.

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I wanted one Santas because 
obviously everything's happened 

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with Disney and, you know, 
Successor. 

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Fuck that one up. 
Yeah, but actually does, he's 

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doing just fine. 
So you know. 

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Yeah. 
Wash is just the world still 

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there. 
Yeah, it's fine. 

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And their numbers were fine. 
They're actually their parks are

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doing really well. 
You know, I want to divide 

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because I love I really have 
like talking to me over the 

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years and he's a little bit 
unplugged which says you can 

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season strong. 
He was my, my favorite just like

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raw Charisma. 
Yeah, and also, he was like, oh 

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this, okay, that this is going 
to, he never would have talked. 

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Well, no, he did. 
He was always a really good 

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interview as a CEO, but now he's
like, could give a fuck. 

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And it's like here. 
Let me tell you what. 

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I actually think who out 
performed expectations or let's 

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talk the clinical. 
Honestly people ask me that all 

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the time. 
I thought they all were very 

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good. 
I didn't find any of the 

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interviews like, oh, that 
sucked, you know, sometimes many

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years that happens, but like 
Carly fiorina was just terrible.

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For example, we got into a bit 
of a, of a, of a beef testy 

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thing going on but you know, I 
thought they were all great. 

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I can't think of one, I thought 
Cuban was, it was all people. 

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I'd like to talk to I actually 
programmed. 

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Because of people I like to 
talk, but I didn't program 

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people, I didn't like to talk 
to, you know what I mean? 

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I was like, oh, you know, I did 
ask Marc Andreessen he said no. 

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Yeah, I can way I think was the 
answer for that one. 

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Well, because and what's the 
reason for that, you think I 

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mean, he just feels I'm whatever
he's doing now is little Act of,

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you know, victim and right-wing.
The, I don't know what he's 

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doing. 
What do you say on stage? 

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You certain stage? 
The people that Marc Andreessen.

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It said the text set still like 
to because of Stockholm 

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syndrome. 
Do that was when there was an 

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article He said that many years 
ago. 

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Yeah. 
But I guess he's a through that,

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you know, I knew him really well
and he's been on stage at Cody's

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give animate. 
The reason I want to have me, 

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gave me amazing interviews. 
We also had Bill girly coming, 

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but his mom died, and he was 
going to give this amazing 

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presentation. 
I love Bill girly. 

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Such a big thing for we haven't 
always agreed. 

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We used to argue about Uber all 
the time, but I was, I was sorry

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that one didn't happen. 
That was one. 

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I'm really I'm hoping to have 
them on my new podcast because I

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think he's a really interesting 
thinker and open to, you know, 

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he's an adult, you know. 
No, he's an adult like some of 

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these people, they're like, they
do calculations like why should 

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I do it? 
I can you know go on Joe Rogan 

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and they'll just suck up every 
word I say and say it's 

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fantastic so they don't some 
people want to be challenged, 

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some people don't. 
And I have the people who like 

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being single Bill girly was my 
first article. 

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When I put up the pay wall has 
been very generous and is always

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open. 
You don't have to agree with 

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him. 
I've gotten testing notes from 

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him or salty notes from him, 
but, you know, I want it again. 

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I wanted big thinkers, I would 
hope to bring back merrymaker, 

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but she was at her, Was she had 
scheduled something, she had 

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gone every year to code and are 
most years to code and given 

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this amazing internet 
translating from, from observing

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it, I mean, it seemed like you 
guys were both. 

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I mean, maybe Scott more than 
you but we're very happy with 

224
00:10:15,700 --> 00:10:18,600
how Evan Spiegel the snap Co 
performed. 

225
00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,600
I mean he was just coming off of
that earnings call. 

226
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:23,500
Wait and say anything did a good
job? 

227
00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:26,500
Yeah, I mean I don't know you're
hiding the right, right? 

228
00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:28,700
Yeah and I thought Scott that 
last question about fatherhood 

229
00:10:28,700 --> 00:10:30,200
really shook him up. 
He wasn't Expecting it. 

230
00:10:30,208 --> 00:10:33,100
That's why I like Scott there 
he'll ask some right Outta left.

231
00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:35,000
Brooke Brooke was like booing 
it. 

232
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,700
I broke a it was a funny one. 
It's like I mean it's fun to 

233
00:10:39,708 --> 00:10:42,600
have those Outta left field. 
So I like Scott's in there but 

234
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,100
he was tough on him. 
He was tough on him. 

235
00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:46,300
About a couple things. 
I was, I was I actually talked 

236
00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:48,400
to Scott, he's usually asks, 
those out of left field 

237
00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,800
questions, but he has some very 
pertinent management and stock 

238
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,600
questions that I thought. 
Yeah, it's a pretty pivotal 

239
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,200
moment for the company. 
How have you seen by the way? 

240
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,500
You know, from the beginning 
when it was allthingsd up till 

241
00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:02,800
now the like Jim demeanor of the
execs as they, you know, 

242
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,700
approach these interviews. 
I mean, was it a bit Freer in 

243
00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:07,100
the past? 
And now, there's so much more 

244
00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:09,900
coached that they not. 
Not these people, I invited 

245
00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:12,000
people who weren't that way, who
aren't going to. 

246
00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:14,100
I would, they weren't I wasn't 
having it, and they knew I 

247
00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:17,200
wasn't having it. 
And so, like, Mark Cuban wasn't 

248
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,000
going to try to try to talking 
point. 

249
00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:21,900
But what about Sundar, Sundar 
pichai? 

250
00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:26,300
I mean, I feel like he's good at
is, I know what you enjoy in the

251
00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:29,100
moment then afterwards. 
I'm like, what did he say like, 

252
00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:31,700
well, It's true. 
You got a glimpse into him. 

253
00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,200
Now let me just say he's like 
that off the Record. 

254
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,600
He's like that, you know, he's 
very first of all, he's a lovely

255
00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,200
man. 
He's a very lovely sweet man and

256
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,200
he's not like the founders. 
I can tell you that and so who 

257
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,000
it could be very difficult and 
just difficult. 

258
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,600
And we've had them on stage, we 
have them together. 

259
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,700
One of the, I think the first 
code we had them together but I 

260
00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:53,900
thought it was just interesting 
for people to see these people 

261
00:11:53,900 --> 00:11:57,900
and action, and he's just by 
Nature a cautious person. 

262
00:11:58,100 --> 00:12:01,400
So, I think it was he wasn't 
trying To spin necessarily. 

263
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,200
It's he's very deliberative and 
so I want people to even if he 

264
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,400
doesn't answer the way you want 
him to or get news. 

265
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,000
Although by the way, Eric plenty
of news, you're welcome, like 

266
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,100
it's funny. 
Now I've totally evolved into 

267
00:12:14,100 --> 00:12:17,500
one of these people who's happy 
to have them for like The Vibes 

268
00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:21,100
rather than the news. 
It's funny how they answer, 

269
00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:22,500
right? 
Exactly what they're saying. 

270
00:12:22,500 --> 00:12:24,600
Right, exactly what they are. 
How they think about things 

271
00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:26,300
here. 
Let me give you an example. 

272
00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:29,300
Now, I'll help you. 
When I said here's a question. 

273
00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:33,200
Tasks are Twitter. 
He said, absolutely not. 

274
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,700
He made a face and he was like, 
I wouldn't stay away from that 

275
00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:36,700
piece of shit. 
You know what I mean? 

276
00:12:36,700 --> 00:12:39,400
That kind of thing, right? 
And as Pinterest, oh my God, he 

277
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,300
was so fun. 
So what now we, mais mind, 

278
00:12:41,300 --> 00:12:43,600
Pinterest ideas. 
Yeah, that was the worst 

279
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,900
handling of a single question. 
I think anybody, he can't, he's 

280
00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:49,600
such a bad poker player. 
Yeah, I did it on purpose, 

281
00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,500
proceeding it with Twitter 
because then Pinterest was 

282
00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:55,600
second that we planned, right? 
So there's smart because we knew

283
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,700
he went so big on denying 
Twitter. 

284
00:12:57,900 --> 00:13:00,800
And then when she says of 
Interest, Obviously there was a 

285
00:13:00,808 --> 00:13:03,300
truthiness to it that it would 
seem like a real liar if you 

286
00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:04,900
went so big and then he was 
caught. 

287
00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:07,900
So it was it was well-structured
question. 

288
00:13:07,900 --> 00:13:10,800
I also know that he doesn't like
that other people don't mind 

289
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,800
lying to me to my face. 
Steve Jobs, love to do it like I

290
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,500
am not making a phone Cara, I 
don't know what you're talking 

291
00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:18,700
about next year, here's our 
phone. 

292
00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:21,700
Well, I enjoyed that because you
brought that up to Tim Cook Tim 

293
00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:25,000
Cook gave this elaborate 
defensive Steve Jobs saying that

294
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,200
basically, oh Steve hadn't 
committed to doing the phone yet

295
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,600
because he wasn't sold on the 
carrier. 

296
00:13:29,700 --> 00:13:31,400
Hers is UK. 
It was a funny. 

297
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,700
Like why do you need to? 
Like it's like he was okay. 

298
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,000
Yeah but I did that might be 
true. 

299
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,200
They might, he might have been 
struggling with them for a long 

300
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,600
time but they were still working
on the he's still right? 

301
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,000
Because he was working on a 
phone. 

302
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,100
So I asked him. 
I went back and looked and I 

303
00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:47,900
said are you working on a phone?
I don't know if you're going to 

304
00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:49,900
launch it, but is that an 
important thing for you? 

305
00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:52,600
I was very specific. 
I'm very specific, so they can't

306
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,300
weasel out of it, but in that 
case, yes, I saw him do that, 

307
00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:57,100
that's fine. 
Whatever I want to go back to 

308
00:13:57,108 --> 00:13:59,600
this idea of them, becoming a 
bit more closed off. 

309
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,400
Time went on. 
I mean what do you think that's 

310
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,000
a result of? 
Is it just the pr apparatus 

311
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,000
around them getting to be more 
controlling? 

312
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,300
They're just being more coach, 
just the tech, you know, posture

313
00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:13,100
being so much more, you know, 
present in the National 

314
00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:14,900
conversation that these guys are
aware that. 

315
00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:18,400
If they say things that can fuck
up larger processes, I think 

316
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:20,900
there's a bit of regulatory, you
know, actually these are people 

317
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:23,800
who talk more than most people 
more than most corporate people.

318
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,800
So that's to start with. 
They are that way. 

319
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:29,900
But one thing that they do that 
I think is interesting is It's 

320
00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:31,500
not all of them. 
Some of them, I don't think 

321
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:34,800
Mark, Cuban's changed and Iota 
really over the years, they 

322
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,500
become surrounded by people who 
look them up and down and agree 

323
00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:41,300
with them be a minute. 
And so when someone challenges 

324
00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:43,800
and I don't think they know what
to do, and I think they become, 

325
00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:46,700
you know, they get in these if 
your watch succession, one of 

326
00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:48,200
the things that I think is 
really a Jeanette, I know the 

327
00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:51,700
Creator's really that I talked 
about this, these spaces are in 

328
00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:54,600
there all Kashmir and comfort, 
but they get smaller and 

329
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,200
smaller, and smaller over the 
years. 

330
00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,300
And so they're very comfortable 
and expensive, but Hermetically 

331
00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:02,600
sealed. 
And so a lot of these people are

332
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,700
surrounded by people who agree 
with them violently and so, and 

333
00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:10,500
because they get paid, they get,
they get paid and they benefit 

334
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:12,700
from those people, you know, 
Mark, you're so smart. 

335
00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:15,800
Of course, don't listen to Kara 
like and I've had some really 

336
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,400
good points. 
He should have listened to right

337
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,300
over the years. 
And, you know, I've had 

338
00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:21,600
encounters like that with Mark 
Zuckerberg where I say that was 

339
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,100
stupid and he's like, what are 
you talking about? 

340
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:24,900
Everyone agrees. 
I'm like everyone who pays you 

341
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:27,500
agrees like everything you say 
because you're in charge of 

342
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:29,000
this. 
I don't work for you. 

343
00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:31,900
And so, So I think that's what 
happens more as they get richer 

344
00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:35,700
and richer and more Des involved
with actual people, which they 

345
00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:39,600
go no from the plane, with the 
nannies to the, you know, 

346
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,500
whatever, you know, from the 
plane to the car to their house,

347
00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:44,500
to the security, they all 
security. 

348
00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:48,500
Now, they never did, it's a 
different life and then some of 

349
00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:50,900
them get out, right? 
Like, Bill Gates is much better 

350
00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:52,800
since he left, you know, since 
he's doing other things. 

351
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,500
He's very easy to talk to. 
Actually, he was very difficult 

352
00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:57,700
to talk to, he was always 
difficult, that was not nothing 

353
00:15:57,700 --> 00:16:02,300
to do well, but You just learned
how to talk actually, right? 

354
00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:05,000
But if they're by Nature like 
that they're going to behave 

355
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,500
like that, right? 
If they're by Nature like any 

356
00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:10,500
Jesse was there since he was in 
high College, he's been an 

357
00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:12,600
Amazon since he's called, he 
loves his little country of 

358
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,200
Amazon so he's he believes in 
it. 

359
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,600
He actually does. 
And if you understand that about

360
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,900
them, I don't I think reporters 
healing to go oh the lying. 

361
00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:23,300
Oh talking points. 
I don't think that's. 

362
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:24,800
You have to understand them as 
people. 

363
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:30,400
And I think most reporters have 
a have a tendency to To not 

364
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,600
assume their people, right? 
So I mean certainly I'm slowly 

365
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,800
evolving to that. 
Oh no, it reflects their 

366
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,900
personalities in some way. 
I mean I really like Twitter is 

367
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:43,000
sometimes an interesting lens 
into these people's minds are in

368
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,000
a Securities. 
Jeff Bezos, right? 

369
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,200
I mean, this guy forgetting. 
I was like, she doesn't like the

370
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:48,700
queen. 
Let us look like the fucking 

371
00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:51,500
Queen was weird. 
Was it tells police. 

372
00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:55,200
He's literally complains about 
tone and woke culture and then 

373
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,600
he just woke this lady out the 
door, whatever. 

374
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,500
Yeah, it's incredible. 
And it's Is it since he stepped 

375
00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:04,400
down as CEO, he's really let his
Twitter game Fly, and it's so 

376
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,099
much fun to watch. 
I mean, I really want to 

377
00:17:06,099 --> 00:17:07,900
encourage it from him. 
I do too. 

378
00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:10,500
Although I have to say, I don't 
think he's very good at it and I

379
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,200
know, but that's why it's not 
true. 

380
00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:16,000
He seems not very smart. 
He seems reactive which is again

381
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,500
incredible because this is a guy
who was built up as like the 

382
00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:21,500
great business leader of our 
time and deserves credit for a 

383
00:17:21,508 --> 00:17:24,300
lot of things that Amazon is. 
But like you imagine that 

384
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:26,400
everything that comes out of his
mouth is like a pearl. 

385
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,500
And in fact, it's just like, 
not, they're not posted. 

386
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,200
Posters I can't imagine Bezos 
has been consuming the internet 

387
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,700
sort of, in the constant I think
it probably is oh I think he's 

388
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:39,300
paying and he's like playing 
catch up but it feels like some 

389
00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:42,300
of these things seem, such 
obvious, like cell phones that 

390
00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:45,200
if you love spending time on any
case, it's interesting because 

391
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,800
he now just an inside his thing,
he was always argumentative and 

392
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,800
very difficult to talk to in 
terms of, he has a sort of ha 

393
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,000
ha, laughs personalities, very 
difficult and sometimes 

394
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,000
unpleasant person, right? 
And so one at a time, I 

395
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,800
remember, I wrote something. 
And the Wall Street Journal, 

396
00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:04,700
they had gotten into trouble for
paying people for promotion, 

397
00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:07,800
promoting products on the site 
and they had always had the 

398
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,700
image of everything's equal. 
We're just putting it out there 

399
00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:13,900
and, you know, so they got extra
money, if you put, I don't know,

400
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,300
some shampoo in a more prominent
search position. 

401
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:20,900
Essentially, because back then, 
this is early Amazon days but it

402
00:18:20,908 --> 00:18:23,400
was getting payment from. 
It was merchandising is what it 

403
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,300
was paid merchandising payments,
which I had covered retail for 

404
00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:28,300
seven years and that's the end 
cap. 

405
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:31,200
People pay to be in Supermarkets
and cap, right? 

406
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,700
Basic and I use that compares. 
I'm like, I covered this is the 

407
00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:34,900
end cap. 
This is what he's doing, and 

408
00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:38,500
then and he promised not to, he 
had I had quotes or he said, I'd

409
00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:40,300
never do that. 
But I've never do it. 

410
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:43,000
Retailed us and he did it. 
And I pointed out, he came up to

411
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,000
me to Ted and he started yelling
at me, like, that's not good. 

412
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,700
I am doing that and I was like, 
you know, relax, you know 

413
00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:52,200
sweetheart but you know, it's 
just it was really interesting. 

414
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,700
So he's he is obstreperous. 
He's just hidden the 

415
00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:58,400
obstreperous - and we had we had
a very big argument and then 

416
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,700
sort of okay. 
But he hasn't that is his 

417
00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:03,600
personality. 
What you're seeing on Twitter is

418
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,200
what he's what I experienced 
back in the day, when he was 

419
00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:09,900
calling, we're constantly 
because he wanted press. 

420
00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:12,700
I think you also hit on a 
particular, a particular sore 

421
00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:15,800
spot for Tech Executives, which 
is when you point out that their

422
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,300
Innovations are actually things 
that the regular world, the 

423
00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:20,200
regular world has been doing for
decades. 

424
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,900
I find that they get. 
It sounds to me, like he was 

425
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:24,800
just Veena, like, they were, and
I'm right here. 

426
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,500
Justina like they are. 
I think that's more, not that 

427
00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:29,500
they'd, he was an Innovative, 
but that he was doing. 

428
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,200
Exactly what he said he wouldn't
do. 

429
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,400
And he was just like them. 
And so, one of my things with 

430
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,800
all these people, when I covered
them, they, you know, they sort 

431
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,800
of think they hung the moon and 
aren't they Innovative? 

432
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,000
And you know what, a banker's 
Innovative. 

433
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,700
So is a pharmacist. 
If big Pharma is innovative, 

434
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:47,600
they've come up with some pretty
cool drugs and also problems. 

435
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,400
And so the problem with tech is 
they get so licked up and down 

436
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,700
all day long that they think 
they hung the moon. 

437
00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:55,700
And so not all of your finger 
there. 

438
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,500
I mean, the tech media got so - 
like it got boring. 

439
00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:02,000
Well, I think I started it, but 
I agree. 

440
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,300
I thought we were all gonna die 
because you were you sort of 

441
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:07,300
burned down Mark Zuckerberg a 
little bit, right? 

442
00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:10,700
I mean, your Karissa, yeah, I 
mean - right. 

443
00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:13,000
Yeah. 
But I mean do you but now are 

444
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,600
you, you're sort of, you're 
going back to the, why is my 

445
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,400
think that was exactly the right
thing to point out what was 

446
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:19,900
happening to talk about? 
What about now? 

447
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,400
Like, what's your mood at the 
moment? 

448
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,100
I still, I still have all kinds 
of problems. 

449
00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:25,700
I think - compact not - its 
skeptical. 

450
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:28,200
You have to be skeptical. 
I think sometimes snarky is 

451
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,000
what's the point and it doesn't 
Fair. 

452
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,900
It's actually unfair as you have
to listen to their argument and 

453
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,800
and you can't just assume out of
hand that they're lying to you. 

454
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,700
And I think one of the things I 
learned is reporter over the 

455
00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:43,100
years. 
I used to think, oh, they're 

456
00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:44,900
lying to me. 
What are they lying to me about 

457
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:46,600
now? 
I think what are they lying to 

458
00:20:46,608 --> 00:20:49,100
themselves, right. 
What do they have? 

459
00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:52,000
That's right. 
And the second part is what do 

460
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,700
they have to say what has to 
come out about them? 

461
00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:56,400
They what do they have to 
present? 

462
00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:59,500
You know Steve case for example 
this is way back used to always 

463
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,500
Have to be right in the end. 
And he often was, by the way, 

464
00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:04,800
he's very prescient. 
If you look at some old Steve 

465
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,400
case stuff, the stuff he wrote 
the last book, he wrote was just

466
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,200
dead on, is what's happening. 
Now, this was a long time ago, 

467
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,200
he has a new book out, I think 
coming, but he always has to be 

468
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,100
right in the end and I like 
that, I just as long as you know

469
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:20,600
it someone like I'm trying to 
think of someone who would be 

470
00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:22,500
Ted leonsis. 
I'm just using AOL people, he 

471
00:21:22,508 --> 00:21:24,800
really likes to be liked that 
was critical. 

472
00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:27,600
If he wasn't liked, he didn't, 
he felt uncomfortable. 

473
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,500
And so if you figure out 
psychologically, What there the 

474
00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:34,200
thing that's going on with them,
it's it's very it's a lot easier

475
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,000
to see them as people. 
And I don't mean to say, they're

476
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,200
not powerful, they don't aren't 
manipulative. 

477
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,000
The companies aren't damaging. 
It's just that I think we spent 

478
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,600
a lot of time on the stuff that 
doesn't matter and don't pay 

479
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,100
attention to the stuff that 
does. 

480
00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:48,600
And that's, that's what I mean, 
skeptical is what you need to 

481
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,500
be. 
Not snarky and not mean, not. 

482
00:21:51,700 --> 00:21:53,600
There's no. 
When I was going after Marissa 

483
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,600
Mayer, I my premise was she is 
not qualified to run this 

484
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,100
company. 
And also this company is headed 

485
00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:02,200
for the A sheep anyway, and 
there's bullshit about Reviving.

486
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,300
It is bullshit, and all they own
is Ali, Baba, and that's what 

487
00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:07,200
happened and saying. 
You don't, you don't look back 

488
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:08,800
at all that your Marissa 
coverage and think it might have

489
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,700
been a little bit mean, no, go 
read it. 

490
00:22:10,700 --> 00:22:13,600
No, no, I didn't. 
I never wrote about her clothes.

491
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,200
I never wrote about her. 
There were a lot of member that 

492
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,600
glamour fashion, shoot. 
Everyone went on. 

493
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:21,300
Yeah. 
Vanity Fair something. 

494
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:23,800
The centerfold, I didn't write 
about marks looks ever. 

495
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,800
I never wrote about his personal
life. 

496
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,600
The other thing that I remember 
once she was late, too, A 

497
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,500
meeting at Cohn and all these 
people she was it wasn't a very 

498
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:36,900
good CEO calling back clients. 
That was everybody did that 

499
00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:42,800
she's like speaker Yahoo right? 
You're right, we want depiction 

500
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,000
of this but she wasn't it wasn't
a depiction. 

501
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,400
They they set it on the record. 
It wasn't these the you know the

502
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,800
heads of all these ad agencies, 
she she goes to them quite a lot

503
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,500
and okay that's that's she needs
to. 

504
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,700
You can't do that when you're in
a business. 

505
00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:59,300
And so so she was late to a 
meeting. 

506
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,900
Carbon had a habit of doing 
that, by the way to remember 

507
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:03,400
that? 
She was, but she missed it and 

508
00:23:03,408 --> 00:23:05,500
because she was sleeping because
she had jet. 

509
00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:07,200
I remember you writing about 
this. 

510
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,600
I didn't write about it. 
I didn't I didn't because one I 

511
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,400
thought maybe she's pregnant. 
I thought maybe she's missed a 

512
00:23:14,408 --> 00:23:17,900
meeting and nikesh Arora, Miss 
dozens of them. 

513
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:21,100
So why should I call her out? 
When he used to do it all the 

514
00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:23,500
time. 
And so there was, there was a 

515
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:27,600
lot, we didn't we didn't pick 
on, we only picked on the 

516
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,000
business aspects of There are 
the problems we did not pick 

517
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,700
them. 
Personally, we did not think 

518
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:36,000
they were had necessary. 
Except for Travis, I do think he

519
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,300
had mal-intent, we didn't assume
that they were bad. 

520
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:43,300
People necessarily they just 
were most of them aren't by the 

521
00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:45,400
way. 
Yeah, a big question of tech 

522
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,400
coverage that you're getting at,
which is just do you think the 

523
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,200
public and the press assesses, 
these companies based on a 

524
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,500
score, keeping of their policy 
decisions and moral Rights and 

525
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:56,500
Wrongs? 
Or do you think it's? 

526
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,400
It's very personality-driven 
people's feelings. 

527
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,100
Mark, Zuckerberg, see the 
Public's feelings about Mark 

528
00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:05,800
Zuckerberg, is him to drive 
their perception of Facebook so 

529
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,100
much more than their 
understanding, of all the little

530
00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:10,800
scandals that negates to, but it
happened to Gates and then he 

531
00:24:10,808 --> 00:24:13,200
changed it because of all the 
philanthropy and happens to 

532
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,500
people. 
And so Gates has shifted His 

533
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,100
Image, right? 
Because all the really 

534
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,100
tremendous philanthropies doing.
It doesn't leave behind what he 

535
00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:22,900
did. 
Same thing with a queen like 

536
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:25,400
today, I was watching Twitter 
was really interesting and you 

537
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,900
have those who are like, which 
is fantastic, and then there's 

538
00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:30,000
others like, hey, Colonial dames
Mmmmm right. 

539
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,500
You know what I mean? 
Like, I don't forgive her for 

540
00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:35,200
that, and I get both sides, like
you can't leave behind the past 

541
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,000
that you had. 
Now she's not particularly 

542
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,000
responsible for it and 
individually, but she was the 

543
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,200
queen and presided over a lot of
really brutal stuff. 

544
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,900
Lord bound button and India. 
All kinds of stuff you can carry

545
00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:48,900
two visions in your head of 
people, right. 

546
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:51,100
I think, the reason everyone was
paying attention to Mark, 

547
00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:53,700
Zuckerberg is because it's the 
biggest that's all, it's the 

548
00:24:53,708 --> 00:24:56,100
biggest, and it's the most 
careless, it was the most 

549
00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:59,100
careless or it has been. 
And so if it's the biggest, it 

550
00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:01,500
gets the The tension and they 
have to, that's what I was 

551
00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:03,400
trying to get at with several 
people. 

552
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,700
Is like, they don't consider 
themselves powerful. 

553
00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:07,300
It's really a style were 
pirates. 

554
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:09,400
Somewhat was almost comedic. 
They were all because they're 

555
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,800
also worried about antitrust 
which was a big theme, you know 

556
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,200
what I mean? 
Yeah I'm sure they're you were 

557
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,000
good about servicing that but 
they were like there was a part 

558
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,400
where Sundar was almost 
celebrating how poorly they were

559
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,200
doing in a cloud. 
Because somebody asked about 

560
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,300
Cloud. 
It's like, you don't have enough

561
00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:23,000
market. 
Share it. 

562
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,900
It's like, see we're not a 
monopoly like don't worry about 

563
00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:28,000
it. 
I know it was like, do you see 

564
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,200
as normally you think of them? 
Is like right? 

565
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,000
I know but but normally they're 
Shilling you know how good they 

566
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,800
are but like the big text or 
anything one percent of retail, 

567
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,900
right. 
And I'm like 53 percent of 

568
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:41,300
online Commerce. 
Yes. 

569
00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:45,300
But one percent of retail and 
so, you know, it's whatever. 

570
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,300
As long as you, I like to hear 
how they defend themselves. 

571
00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:50,600
It's interesting. 
Yeah, it's always a Dance. 

572
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,200
I mean, I remember, you know, 
covering snap when Facebook was 

573
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,000
just, you know, reaming them 
with copying all their features 

574
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,600
and everyone was telling me, you
know, Facebook just wants to 

575
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,500
kill snap and as No, they don't.
They want snap to be there 

576
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:03,800
because they're the perfect 
response to the fact that 

577
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,400
Facebook is a monopoly. 
It's like, how could be a 

578
00:26:05,408 --> 00:26:08,100
monopoly this other company 
exists that has 200 million 

579
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:10,400
daily users. 
But then of course, Tick-Tock 

580
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,700
shows up with the thing that 
actually works, right? 

581
00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:15,200
And and then of course, marks 
got cards that say China. 

582
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,300
China, if you notice, I didn't 
interview them in 2018, he was 

583
00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:20,800
already doing it China, China, 
China, China. 

584
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,400
And by the way, I tend to agree 
with them on that but he was 

585
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,400
doing it for his interests 
versus the real threat of. 

586
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,900
But also remember this is 
probably after He you know, 

587
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:32,300
spent that you're learning 
Mandarin and wanted to expand 

588
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:34,800
Facebook into China. 
If that fell on its face is like

589
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,000
forget the national security 
thing. 

590
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,300
It just like it's not a fair 
competitive landscape. 

591
00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:43,800
Anyway, I wanted to go back. 
You might agree with these tech 

592
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,300
people. 
Sometimes you know, that's the 

593
00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:47,300
problem. 
Now, I'm allowed to, I can admit

594
00:26:47,300 --> 00:26:48,900
it. 
You know, you can you miss your 

595
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:50,400
opinions right? 
We did that. 

596
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,200
That was the design of recode. 
All right. 

597
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,800
I know that was the original 
design because I told you, what 

598
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:56,600
are you? 
I copy you. 

599
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,800
You know, it's good, it's good. 
We were at the Wall Street 

600
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,100
Journal. 
I wrote a story about webvan and

601
00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:03,600
I was like I did a ton of 
reporting and I was like this is

602
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,000
a fucking mathematical disaster 
like and doesn't and I don't 

603
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,800
mean to say they're not going to
be food delivery. 

604
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,400
I don't mean to say that someday
when everything aligns that, 

605
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,100
it's not a great idea. 
But this particular company is a

606
00:27:14,108 --> 00:27:16,600
mathematical fucking disaster 
and I was going to say something

607
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,500
like that and the journal and 
the editor sent it back to me. 

608
00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:21,000
It's like can you get someone 
else to say this? 

609
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,300
I'm like no no I'm right I did 
the reporting reported analysis 

610
00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:29,000
and I called the to be sure 
statement to they always put it 

611
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,200
to be sure. 
Sure, some people don't think 

612
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:38,400
that, you know, what is one 
sexual assault away from the end

613
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,800
of their business, but they do 
not look like that hate the TV 

614
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,200
shows, right? 
So it recode, I designed the 

615
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,500
editorial is never a to be 
fuckin sure. 

616
00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:50,400
Sensei what you think. 
So, Peter Kafka was very good at

617
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,200
this, he'd write us, he'd break 
a story. 

618
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,600
And he said, okay, this is what 
they mean, this is what they're 

619
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,100
saying this is, you know, he 
would give you his knowledge and

620
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:01,000
experience. 
Based on reporting and then he 

621
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,900
could say, like that's not. 
And one thing that drives me 

622
00:28:03,908 --> 00:28:08,600
crazy is often I'll say, I'll 
make a prediction about 

623
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:09,800
something. 
It's not a prediction, it's 

624
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,800
based on reported analysis and a
several times. 

625
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,600
Like, oh, you got that, right? 
I'm like, no, no. 

626
00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:19,600
I just just like, as if I was, I
wanted to be a CIA analyst and 

627
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:24,300
so I just did the work made us 
look like this when you could 

628
00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:27,300
get Anonymous sources. 
So that's what we did. 

629
00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:30,100
That's all we did it recode. 
As we like, Okay, Comcast is 

630
00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:31,900
saying this but really this is 
what's happening. 

631
00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:34,300
I think Puck does a great job of
it actually you're right you're 

632
00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:37,600
on a reporter podcast and we're 
talking about hard questions. 

633
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,300
So what's the, what's the status
of recode? 

634
00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:43,400
I mean, it feels like re codes 
business is largely dependent on

635
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,800
the comp. 
No, no, it has nothing. 

636
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:46,700
It's not affiliate hired so many
great. 

637
00:28:46,700 --> 00:28:49,500
So many great reporters have 
come up through it, I guess is 

638
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:53,300
recode succeeding, how would you
think it's not linked anymore? 

639
00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:56,600
It's not people have, it's not 
the code is code is separate. 

640
00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:59,300
Yeah, from Rico. 
Okay, it's not the same. 

641
00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:03,200
That was when we had the recode 
business by itself that we sold 

642
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,100
to box and then the code 
conference went into their 

643
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:09,300
events division, whether they're
going to do, the cut does 

644
00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:11,800
something, it's all in the 
events business now so it's not 

645
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,000
affiliate it's not within that 
PL anymore. 

646
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,500
And so the pnl of recode or the 
staff of recode is within box, I

647
00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:22,900
think, I think that's that's.com
and so that's where it is. 

648
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,300
So it's not the code conference 
isn't financially lifting, the 

649
00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:29,200
other one and then Vox decides 
if they need more Tech. 

650
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,800
Reporters if they can make 
enough, add money or this and 

651
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,300
that I've stopped working really
for recode when I started doing 

652
00:29:35,300 --> 00:29:38,500
the podcast, me and I took an 
intern and I went, I was running

653
00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:41,400
it and I said, Jim I don't want 
to run, I don't like management 

654
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,000
very much. 
I'm not bad at it but I don't 

655
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,600
like it and I want to do this 
podcast thing and I think it's 

656
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,200
going to be a big business. 
And so since I already had a 

657
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,700
business that made a lot of 
money for them there, they tend 

658
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:55,200
to believe me, right? 
They tend to give me the chance 

659
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,900
to try things, and so I 
literally took it in turn. 

660
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,100
He's now tweets. 
Greetings all time. 

661
00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:01,600
I love him. 
He's grow Noah:. 

662
00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:06,400
Yeah, he was great in that 
regard. 

663
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,500
I'm like, I'm not going to run 
this anymore, you'll find 

664
00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:11,600
someone else and he was like, oh
oh, because they'd like to keep 

665
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,000
you in that job forever, right? 
And so, I was like, I'm going to

666
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,400
do this and I'm going to make 
you tons of money and it's make 

667
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:18,700
sense of money. 
It makes sense about it. 

668
00:30:18,700 --> 00:30:22,000
And so that's that's all. 
And so, the podcast is in the 

669
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,200
podcast of it, the lesson you 
learn you're saying about 

670
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,700
yourself is sort of you wanted 
to be the Creator rather than 

671
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:30,900
the manager I want to do. 
What I want to do, I don't know 

672
00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:33,200
what else to say. 
I just like it was going to be a

673
00:30:33,208 --> 00:30:36,300
manager and you no longer I 
didn't really it just I had to 

674
00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:38,100
do it because that's the way it 
is. 

675
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,400
You know, if when you're running
things I mean, don't you like 

676
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,700
working by yourself now? 
Isn't it? 

677
00:30:41,708 --> 00:30:44,300
Nice, I miss colleagues. 
I like things. 

678
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:46,200
You know. 
Know I have a lot. 

679
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,200
I have a ton on the podcast and 
then I like being in charge. 

680
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,500
Certainly, I like that. 
Part of it. 

681
00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:54,600
I like my voice being sort of 
the deciding one and I can take,

682
00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:57,400
you know. 
Yeah, I wanted to go back to 

683
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,200
Andy jassy. 
I know he's sort of veered off. 

684
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,100
That what did you make of him? 
Like to me, I mean you really 

685
00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:06,100
tried to give him the 
opportunity to say. 

686
00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:09,500
This is your company now, like, 
how are you making it yours and 

687
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:12,300
he almost was like, oh, there's 
a lot of people who run it. 

688
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:13,900
Like, I don't know. 
What did you make of that hole? 

689
00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:16,200
That gives me insight into him, 
doesn't it? 

690
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,400
Jeff Bezos would have been, you 
know, he's narcissist in charge,

691
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,400
especially I noticed he's not a 
narcissist, I noticed it 

692
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,100
probably will be. 
He reminds me a great deal of 

693
00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:28,000
such a Nadella, actually, who 
now has come into his own and 

694
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,500
we'll take credit. 
But the first interview I did 

695
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:33,800
was Sasha, after he got the Zeo 
ship was not a very good 

696
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,000
interview, he was very 
deferential to previous 

697
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,700
administration. 
Do you think that worry, they'll

698
00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:41,000
get it taken away. 
It's like, it's not firmly in 

699
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,100
their hands. 
Yeah, they're sort of like I 

700
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:45,300
need to still worried about the 
old boss. 

701
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,800
You know, the stock is down. 
They've got a lot of challenges,

702
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,800
there's regulatory scrutiny. 
He's been very aggressive behind

703
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,300
the scenes on this regulatory 
stuff. 

704
00:31:54,300 --> 00:31:57,200
Jeff never went to Washington. 
The sky goes all the time from. 

705
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,900
I mean, I hear about him here 
all the time. 

706
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,100
I think he's a much. 
He's a different personality and

707
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:03,900
I think it's very difficult if 
you're not the founder, because 

708
00:32:03,900 --> 00:32:05,800
when you're the founder, you can
be any kind of asshole, you 

709
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,500
want, right? 
Because you're the founder and 

710
00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:09,400
you're the God. 
And so, if you're the second 

711
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,700
person, it's harder to hold on 
to like, say, it's interesting 

712
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:16,800
as Sundar is the second person. 
Really, I wouldn't I wouldn't 

713
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,700
count Eric Schmidt because I 
thought that was a Troika. 

714
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,400
So I chose the second person. 
So it Ted sir. 

715
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,700
And O's, although he was there 
very early and so's Jesse. 

716
00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:29,000
And so, I think they're not as 
confident as you think in there.

717
00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:31,900
And they've got a sort of, Tim 
did a great job of it by the 

718
00:32:31,908 --> 00:32:36,100
way, think about inheriting from
jobs, oh my God, nothing but 

719
00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:37,000
failure. 
Right. 

720
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,300
There's if it goes well they're 
like oh it was jobs and if it 

721
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:42,800
goes not wellö, cook sucks. 
And there was a lot of shake out

722
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,800
of Executives. 
Then several left, several big 

723
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,200
Executives. 
Although, the main team I said 

724
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,000
acute was backstage, I was like,
oh, you were still here, still 

725
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,700
here Eddy cue. 
A lot of the, a lot of the the 

726
00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:55,600
team is still in place, which is
interesting. 

727
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,900
But there was a huge amount of 
shake up before he found his 

728
00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:01,700
way, right before he found. 
Sway and he's, you know, 10x 

729
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:03,500
that company's value, which is 
amazing. 

730
00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:06,500
I mean, with Jesse, I mean, this
fits into sort of a theme. 

731
00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:09,600
I was getting out before like 
the union question, I thought 

732
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,900
he's sort of secured himself and
that he couldn't get out of it 

733
00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:14,400
fast enough. 
Yeah, but like, there's a 

734
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,800
different sort of version of 
reporting. 

735
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,500
Maybe. 
I don't know what we see on some

736
00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:20,900
like Aaron Sorkin show or 
something where you just like. 

737
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:23,600
If you think the union things 
the wrong thing they're doing, 

738
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,100
like, you never move off of it. 
Or like, how do you think sort 

739
00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:29,100
of philosophically about that? 
I think he thinks that, you 

740
00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:31,400
know, In-seok. 
I think he thinks that demented 

741
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,200
use the questioner like how long
you like make them. 

742
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,700
See you've got a point that 
Union suck, you know, what are 

743
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:41,900
they done for me lately and I 
think they've done it to 

744
00:33:41,908 --> 00:33:45,700
themselves in many ways. 
Their if here's the two issues 

745
00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:49,000
is Amazon is paying people more,
they do have better benefits 

746
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,300
when they have gotten those 
through a union unions like to 

747
00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:53,300
sort of come, I got the Scout 
for you. 

748
00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:56,100
You know what I mean? 
The problem is which I point out

749
00:33:56,100 --> 00:33:59,200
to him was the workers still 
then has no leverage whatsoever.

750
00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:03,100
I know your sort of they rely on
the kindness of billionaires 

751
00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:05,400
strangers, right? 
And there's reasons for them to 

752
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,500
be nice. 
You keep people, you know you 

753
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:12,699
you avoid regulatory scrutiny, 
the nicer, you are this and that

754
00:34:12,699 --> 00:34:14,900
and maybe just in and of itself 
you build a better company. 

755
00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:18,100
People are actually happy there 
and so there's great arguments 

756
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:19,500
to be made. 
What was interesting is 

757
00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:22,000
Christian Smalls showed up. 
I he called they called me from 

758
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,900
the airport and he got there too
late I would have like he was 

759
00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:26,800
there. 
He was great. 

760
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,000
Yeah. 
But he but But and he does, he's

761
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,400
right? 
It's one, it's one Warehouse in 

762
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,800
the country. 
It's this is as Scott points out

763
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,000
in today's pivot. 
It's not a, you know, it's not 

764
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,199
the it's not the French 
Revolution happening. 

765
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,100
It's just one same thing with 
Starbucks. 

766
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:44,900
It's one store in wherever the 
heck that one story unionized. 

767
00:34:44,900 --> 00:34:47,800
And so I think what's I wanted 
to hear? 

768
00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:50,699
I think he thinks that I think 
he actually thinks that that 

769
00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:53,400
unions are useless. 
They're just a pain in the ass. 

770
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,800
I don't think he's doing it 
because they are going to cost 

771
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,300
them more money because I think 
what's going to what has to I 

772
00:34:59,308 --> 00:35:01,800
think Jesse and that case, I 
think the federal government 

773
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,600
should just mandate $25 an hour,
that's it done. 

774
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,100
And then what do you need it? 
Union for and then you, then 

775
00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:12,200
unions have to reconfigure 
themselves into something that's

776
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,400
useful. 
So part of your answer is 0, the

777
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:15,500
amount. 
I'm going to hold them on. 

778
00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:18,900
It is how bad do I think the 
actual issue is versus service? 

779
00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:21,400
I want to think about it because
I know he has a point. 

780
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,000
He has he has a point at the 
same time. 

781
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,400
He also is leaving out the very 
pertinent fact that they workers

782
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,700
have no Leverage. 
Around safety, they don't have 

783
00:35:30,700 --> 00:35:34,200
any transparency. 
They you know, the numbers that 

784
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,600
they make them do you know, some
of it of course is great fodder 

785
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,000
for reporting, they have to pee 
in them, whatever they ha, 

786
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,100
whatever. 
I think they don't have any 

787
00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:43,000
power, right? 
So that's what I find. 

788
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,400
Interesting about it, not not 
whether Amazon pays an $18, 

789
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,100
which is a much better wage than
most people in retail margin. 

790
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:50,100
Aren't you going to wait on 
this? 

791
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:53,400
You just wrote a story about how
like go pop tried to implement 

792
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,000
Amazon's a sort of workplace 
conditions that like destroyed 

793
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,600
the company. 
I don't know because they're bad

794
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,900
at it. 
Yeah, go puff, is is bad at it? 

795
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:03,600
I mean, I don't know, there's a 
lot to. 

796
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,800
There's a lot to unpack with 
this topic in general, I guess 

797
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,100
we're not going to solve the 
union issue. 

798
00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:10,400
Yeah, I don't know. 
I mean, I guess what I would be 

799
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,500
more interested in a be hearing 
from them is how the anti-union 

800
00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:16,600
argument has shifted from a lot 
of these companies. 

801
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,200
Because back in the day, they 
used to say Union is going to 

802
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,500
get in the way between the 
bosses and the employees and 

803
00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:24,000
we're a family. 
Well family together and you 

804
00:36:24,008 --> 00:36:26,600
don't want to know. 
No no because what Amazon is 

805
00:36:26,607 --> 00:36:29,100
very craftily done. 
In my opinion is they've said 

806
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,700
Ed, you're not going to work at 
Amazon warehouse that much, 

807
00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:33,700
we're gonna help you get a job 
to do things that you really 

808
00:36:33,700 --> 00:36:35,100
want to do. 
So why would you want to waste 

809
00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:37,900
your time and your paycheck, an 
argument going into a union, 

810
00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:40,700
when this is just a, you know, 
some sort of a launching pad to 

811
00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:43,600
you, you know, starting your 
Instagram, you know, influence 

812
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,300
your career as like a you know 
dog makeup purveyor. 

813
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,600
I don't think they say that but 
yeah, I know it should be right.

814
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,000
Yeah. 
And that's why I find it very 

815
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,100
interesting that Amazon 
basically has decided that we 

816
00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:54,000
have a transient Workforce. 
Yeah. 

817
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,400
And so a union would slow that 
down. 

818
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,900
Yeah. 
And I think that would affect 

819
00:36:57,900 --> 00:37:00,200
their business model. 
So I think You know, I thought 

820
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,700
that movie nomadland was very 
good because she didn't hate the

821
00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:05,500
work. 
She was doing but it wasn't. 

822
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:07,700
He could have gone a very 
different way that movie. 

823
00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:10,700
I didn't write. 
I know I, you know, and they got

824
00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:13,400
a lot of flack friend, very 
light Norma Rae that. 

825
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,400
Correct? 
But it yeah it was very 

826
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,600
confusing and very complex 
didn't have a moral answer. 

827
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,500
It was good. 
Yeah. 

828
00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:22,000
And back to the journalists 
aspect of it. 

829
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,600
I mean we've harped on this on 
the show before because I you 

830
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,600
know, covered labor for the last
18 months. 

831
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,100
I think journalists really 
fucked up the story around you. 

832
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,300
Ian's and Amazon because they 
made it seem like it was going 

833
00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:34,400
to be a slam-dunk proposition 
and every Amazon warehouse in 

834
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,700
the country was going to 
unionize and when it came down 

835
00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:39,700
to it, you know, the big one 
Alabama, was a failure, the one 

836
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:42,000
in, you know that Christian 
Smalls LED that was a success 

837
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,500
but it seems isolated right now.
And so I think reporters need to

838
00:37:45,508 --> 00:37:49,000
do a much better job of 
understanding the sentiment that

839
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,900
people in the warehouses have 
before you start pushing your 

840
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:54,700
own personal political agenda. 
Like I am pro-union I don't mind

841
00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:56,400
saying that. 
You know, I do think they are a 

842
00:37:56,408 --> 00:37:57,900
good thing. 
I don't necessarily agree with 

843
00:37:57,900 --> 00:38:01,500
you but I Reporters are have no,
I'm not anti and I'm Pro. 

844
00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:03,300
Good union, but a lot of Union 
suck. 

845
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,900
That's really what they want, a 
good weekend in this country, 

846
00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:10,300
but yeah, Union sent some, it is
very strong, you know, the whole

847
00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:11,900
episode. 
You know, who's good? 

848
00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:14,000
Entertainment? 
Unions are really interesting. 

849
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,000
They have more power. 
They have more leverage, like 

850
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,900
sectoral. 
Unions are super interesting. 

851
00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:22,300
General, certain ones do very 
well and so I think it's not the

852
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:24,200
worst thing in the world to say,
maybe y'all should rethink. 

853
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,000
If we are sitting there, telling
the Billionaire's to rethink 

854
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,600
their business, unions are big 
businesses to and have been over

855
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,500
the years. 
Rethink your fucking business 

856
00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:33,500
because it's declining. 
Yeah, your pitch. 

857
00:38:33,700 --> 00:38:35,700
Can I ask you though? 
Just on the topic of hard 

858
00:38:35,700 --> 00:38:38,000
questions, though? 
You see are an opinionated 

859
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,700
person. 
And you do want to press these 

860
00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:42,100
people, how much do you think 
about where the audience 

861
00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:43,700
sentiment is? 
And whether they're going to go 

862
00:38:43,700 --> 00:38:46,800
along with you on this Frame 
because like, look, a lot of the

863
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,400
people there. 
It's big business, it's not 

864
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,100
cheap going in this thing, so 
it's people that have means 

865
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:53,600
they're probably going to be 
aligned to a degree with the 

866
00:38:53,607 --> 00:38:55,100
founders. 
I know there are people that ask

867
00:38:55,100 --> 00:38:57,900
hard questions and shit usually 
for their own selfish reasons. 

868
00:38:57,900 --> 00:38:59,600
You know. 
Like, you know, why does Goal or

869
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,700
why does Apple not allow? 
Like I like my brother asking 

870
00:39:03,700 --> 00:39:05,900
about the private jets, although
he certainly would like one for 

871
00:39:05,900 --> 00:39:09,100
himself but yeah, they're on 
door but do you ever worry like 

872
00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:11,500
okay, if I go on too long in 
this line I'm going to lose the 

873
00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:13,600
audience and we're not going to 
have you know the kind of 

874
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,600
revealing conversation that I 
actually want to get. 

875
00:39:15,700 --> 00:39:17,800
No. 
Yeah I think it's interesting 

876
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,600
because what I think I think I 
do do something that I think 

877
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,100
others do not do is one. 
I don't follow along the 

878
00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:25,800
questions. 
I had them there but I don't I 

879
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,500
don't follow a script very much 
and I go off when I hear 

880
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:30,100
something. 
Like I listen to what I'm 

881
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:32,700
talking about and I could go off
on a tangent when there's 

882
00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:35,500
something interesting and I 
think I'm a little funny. 

883
00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:38,200
I think I'm funny and the way I 
skewer people is a little 

884
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,100
funnier and, you know, says I 
think I'm funny, but I think I 

885
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:44,000
am yours and you're good to cut.
You cut in with a short thing 

886
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,100
that says, no, that's not or 
like something quick. 

887
00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:49,600
So you don't want to over 
inserting yourself into it, but 

888
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,500
you're checking them alone. 
When I started code, I was much 

889
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:55,300
more snarky. 
And I would say, I hate to say 

890
00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:58,400
this about a woman, but shrill 
and sing about myself your 

891
00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,000
words. 
Yeah, weird. 

892
00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:03,500
Yeah, I was shrill and and I 
think I learned there's a better

893
00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:06,400
way to interview and it without 
sucking up, there's a way to 

894
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,500
have a comp a conversation when 
you're in a regular conversation

895
00:40:09,500 --> 00:40:11,100
with someone. 
That's how I think about it. 

896
00:40:11,300 --> 00:40:14,800
You know like constantly attack 
people you don't constantly kiss

897
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,600
up to them and so one thing that
I think I do do very well I'm a 

898
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,000
good negar I'm really good - 
white man. 

899
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,800
I'm sorry men in general but I 
want to ask about a couple code 

900
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,500
and all things D moments from 
past because I you know I sort 

901
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:31,000
of see them as Formative in the 
way that journalists approach 

902
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:34,500
the relationship with CEOs. 
And one of them is obviously the

903
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:37,600
moment where you're interviewing
the stock and he, you know, he 

904
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,700
he starts sweating like buckets 
on their is you and Walter 

905
00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:43,200
talking about privacy. 
And you know this was their 

906
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,000
starting to make their March 
towards share everything and and

907
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:47,400
you know people were 
uncomfortable with that and 

908
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,400
suck. 
I mean really he must have had 

909
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,300
some sort of condition at the 
time because the guy was 

910
00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:54,100
sweating so much and and you 
know, he took off his hoodie. 

911
00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:55,600
You told him to take it off 
right? 

912
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:56,600
Or didn't you? 
I did. 

913
00:40:56,700 --> 00:40:58,400
Yeah, I did. 
Well because I was going to 

914
00:40:58,408 --> 00:41:00,500
faint. 
Had some knowledge he had 

915
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:04,600
fainted before over from I don't
maybe Owen been out of someone, 

916
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,400
he had panic attacks of some 
sort, and at this company 

917
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,700
meetings, he had gotten 
lightheaded many times. 

918
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:14,900
And so I was aware of that and 
he and his face, you couldn't 

919
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:17,800
see it from where you were. 
I don't think you were there but

920
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,300
yeah, no. 
See the video of it is his face.

921
00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:23,500
You couldn't see it as face went
white and I've seen people faint

922
00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:26,200
and so I thought, oh my God, I 
will say it, and then he'll be 

923
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,000
on the floor and I never have an
interview again, right? 

924
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:30,800
The calculation is like good 
moments. 

925
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,500
But yeah, I killed the most 
promising and entrepreneur in 

926
00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:35,400
Tech. 
Push the doing xiety attack 

927
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,000
would not be enough to like lean
down and touch him. 

928
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,400
And the hold I was like, it was 
all going in my brain. 

929
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,600
I thought he might faint. 
I thought he might think. 

930
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:44,000
Yeah. 
But you see I thought you 

931
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:49,300
handled that in a very you know,
I think comforting way but also 

932
00:41:49,300 --> 00:41:51,600
it wasn't like, I'm sorry for 
having asked you the questions 

933
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,300
that may be led you to having a 
panic attack? 

934
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:55,200
It was like, do you need a 
moment? 

935
00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:57,800
But we're going to continue down
this line of questioning because

936
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,600
they're important and it Human. 
Because why do you know? 

937
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,500
There's no reason to. 
I mean actually Walt was the one

938
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:04,400
asking the questions but I felt 
it was. 

939
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,200
Someone said it was motherly, 
which is interesting. 

940
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,300
I mean, I am a pair, I have a 
lot of kids but I just felt like

941
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:12,300
this guy is obviously in 
physical distress in my really 

942
00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:13,900
going to like kick him in the 
nuts. 

943
00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:16,800
Like I don't really feel like 
that was it and I wanted to stop

944
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,300
it because he didn't, he was 
beside himself, he didn't and he

945
00:42:20,300 --> 00:42:22,400
didn't want to admit, he was 
beside himself because he was in

946
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,300
public, right? 
And so I wanted to take one of 

947
00:42:25,308 --> 00:42:28,700
the reasons I made the the jokes
about the oh the Illuminati. 

948
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:31,300
And that Reason I took that 
hoodie is because it gave him a 

949
00:42:31,308 --> 00:42:34,700
second to write but looking at 
me, so they weren't looking at 

950
00:42:34,700 --> 00:42:38,500
him and then he he calmed down, 
like he calmed down and he 

951
00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:41,500
needed that because when people 
are in those panic attacks, or 

952
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,700
or if ain't, they just need a 
minute, he needed a minute. 

953
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:49,300
And he was a very young CEO, and
I think he was embarrassed. 

954
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,500
I mean, he, he wrote me a lovely
note, after it, I'll tell you 

955
00:42:51,508 --> 00:42:53,800
that he really did. 
And because one person wrote me 

956
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:58,200
a mean note, but it was one of 
their VCS and then about to 

957
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,700
never show another When a motion
during an interview with career.

958
00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:05,500
No, then he did the one of the 
Holocaust with me where he said 

959
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:07,900
Holocaust deniers, don't mean to
lie and got him in trouble. 

960
00:43:08,100 --> 00:43:09,400
Well, that was just a horrible 
line. 

961
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,800
That was fed to him, that just 
should have no, no, no, no. 

962
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,500
You think that was spontaneous 
that wasn't alone. 

963
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,100
Here's what happened. 
I was at most even Rachel, 

964
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:17,100
Whetstone sort of saying, Rachel
was there? 

965
00:43:17,100 --> 00:43:19,100
Rachel was. 
And what was happening is I was 

966
00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:21,500
asking about Alex Jones. 
I was not asking about Holocaust

967
00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:23,900
deniers, right? 
And I Mark some very fast on his

968
00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:24,800
feet. 
That's the problem. 

969
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,800
I don't blame Rachel. 
Yes, just not fastened with 

970
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,700
this, is the whole ghost thing 
was intentional. 

971
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:32,600
Yeah. 
Yeah, no problem. 

972
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,600
Here's the problem. 
I was talking about Alex Jones. 

973
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,100
I was never talking about 
Holocaust, and I think they 

974
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:41,700
prepped a lot of stuff with him.
And he said, I'll take this tool

975
00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:44,900
off the shelf, I'll pick them 
because, right, that talked 

976
00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:47,400
about the Holocaust, reflects 
the principles. 

977
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,500
Well, exactly. 
So he, they must have given him 

978
00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:51,300
six or seven. 
And he said, I'll pick this one,

979
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:54,000
which was a mistake, and because
he's not good at his feet. 

980
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,100
And so, again, it's not the pr 
person's fault, it's his fault. 

981
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,500
So we were talking about how 
Stones he He felt cornered and 

982
00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:02,800
he knew he was wrong and he 
didn't want to say it. 

983
00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:05,800
And so he, so he the thing he 
did and I watched him do it. 

984
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,600
It was really fascinating and he
goes because he's so like one 

985
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,500
thing about Mark is he literally
watched the wheels work and 

986
00:44:11,500 --> 00:44:13,500
you're like, no, don't do that. 
Don't do that. 

987
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,400
Don't do that. 
Like, you can see him because 

988
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,700
he's so bad. 
He's not smooth in any way. 

989
00:44:18,500 --> 00:44:20,200
He may have gotten that he 
steals not good. 

990
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:24,900
No, and so he's so not self 
aware of how to handle himself 

991
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:28,200
in that regard. 
So he he said, oh, let me give 

992
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,200
another example. 
They must have done that, like 

993
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:31,900
switch if you're in trouble, 
switch. 

994
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:36,300
And so, which is what people do 
and he goes as a Jew, he was 

995
00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:39,200
like, it was as a Jew, I will 
talk about Holocaust. 

996
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:40,500
That was what he was trying to 
do. 

997
00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:44,000
Even I a Jewish person, I'm not,
anybody would be horrified by 

998
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:46,200
but nonetheless, I get what they
were trying to do. 

999
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,000
And they actually don't, I mean,
they're like, as a Jew thing is 

1000
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,600
a smart starting point, but I 
didn't expect him to go off 

1001
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,900
into. 
We need to give credibility to 

1002
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:58,700
the worst for me that I would be
most. 

1003
00:44:59,100 --> 00:45:01,700
By I'm willing to stand by. 
That is what he was trying to 

1004
00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:05,600
do, but he's so ham-handed that 
will then walk down and one of 

1005
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,000
the things I did, I think that I
have to say this was my best 

1006
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,700
moment as an interviewer. 
Wow, she said Holocaust now this

1007
00:45:11,700 --> 00:45:15,600
was it this was he goes 
Holocaust deniers don't mean to 

1008
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,800
lie, right? 
Right, something like that, it's

1009
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,000
nice and everything. 
There's so much there that's bad

1010
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,400
as someone who's running the 
most important technology 

1011
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:25,700
company and Communications 
coming. 

1012
00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:28,300
The planet thinks that you're 
like, right are you can't be 

1013
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:30,500
that stupid. 
Oh, there you, good faith. 

1014
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,200
Yes. 
And so, he said that and I could

1015
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,800
have said you fucking idiot. 
Of course. 

1016
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,800
They mean to lie. 
That's their business, they 

1017
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,800
killed people and then they lied
about it. 

1018
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,400
Right? 
What they mean to like it's how 

1019
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,100
it works. 
I didn't say a word. 

1020
00:45:43,100 --> 00:45:45,600
I went ha. 
I think they do. 

1021
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,300
But go on go on. 
That was the best thing I've 

1022
00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:52,200
ever done in an interview before
it was because then it was a 

1023
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:57,400
word salad of Sanity, right? 
And you and what that show that 

1024
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:02,200
word salad was So, he thinks 
people, I want you to hear what,

1025
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,500
how on his feet, what? 
He's thinking. 

1026
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,000
We've got a problem Houston, 
right? 

1027
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,000
Because this is how this is the 
man who runs? 

1028
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,600
Everything, can't figure it out.
He's not educated enough. 

1029
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,000
So that was what I was trying to
show is that he was inadequate 

1030
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,000
to the task at hand that he was 
responsible for and I think that

1031
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,200
did that beautifully. 
Do you think if he had a more 

1032
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,900
Clear Vision of online discourse
and and censorship and the role 

1033
00:46:27,900 --> 00:46:30,800
that face we could play things 
It genuinely be different in the

1034
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,500
way that they in the way that 
things are handled on that site 

1035
00:46:33,500 --> 00:46:37,200
or just online conversation and 
Rancor in general. 

1036
00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:39,500
Yes, because I think what they 
were doing in other countries, 

1037
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:41,500
not this country because we got 
lots of outlets. 

1038
00:46:41,900 --> 00:46:45,100
I think the damage they didn't, 
I think Francis how can was 100%

1039
00:46:45,100 --> 00:46:46,900
right what they did. 
And and it's been reported by 

1040
00:46:46,900 --> 00:46:51,100
lots of people people who are in
their Burma, right everywhere. 

1041
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,300
Everywhere, where Facebook is 
the internet. 

1042
00:46:53,300 --> 00:46:57,200
They have caused Untold damage 
because they're sloppy managers 

1043
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:58,900
of their platform. 
That is the in there they are. 

1044
00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:02,300
Are not good stewards of the 
thing they think. 

1045
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:04,900
And I think it's fine in this 
country and it's not great in 

1046
00:47:04,908 --> 00:47:07,600
this country by the way. 
And that's why when Marie 

1047
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,900
arrests are brought me that data
in 2015. 

1048
00:47:09,900 --> 00:47:11,300
That's why I flipped on 
Facebook. 

1049
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:13,600
I mean, I was never that 
friendly to them, but I was 

1050
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,700
like, oh, oh, and she's like, 
it's going to come here? 

1051
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:19,400
Where the canary in the coal? 
Mine she had proof, she had 

1052
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,600
data, and they ignored it, they 
ignored it. 

1053
00:47:21,700 --> 00:47:24,200
And so I was like, ha, why are 
they ignoring it? 

1054
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,700
Why don't they do sing about it?
That means they are like 

1055
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:28,900
cigarette manufacturers, which 
marked. 

1056
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,200
Benioff said in an interview 
with me on the last portion of 

1057
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,800
this interview. 
I mean I want to talk about sort

1058
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,600
of the fascinating sort of 
headline of this year's code 

1059
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,300
where you had Tick-Tock, well I 
was well, Tick-Tock was a theme 

1060
00:47:42,300 --> 00:47:44,200
but I was coming. 
It's been a surprise, this was 

1061
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:54,600
coming, she supposed to be 
Johnny, I've been reflecting on 

1062
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,800
Steve Jobs, you know, on the one
hand sort of adds that you know 

1063
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,300
the Use person. 
It's like, oh, we're going to 

1064
00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:05,200
talk about sort of the past and 
not the headlines, but but then 

1065
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:06,800
it ended up being a really 
moving thing. 

1066
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,600
I think you you teared up, 
right? 

1067
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,700
Which is unusual is, I mean, I 
haven't seen all your interviews

1068
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:14,800
but I, that was a touching 
moment. 

1069
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,500
Yeah, I don't know what, what 
was your sort of goal with that 

1070
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:21,200
interview going into it? 
Exactly that not me tearing up 

1071
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,700
necessarily I wanted. 
I know that what everybody wants

1072
00:48:25,700 --> 00:48:26,900
in the moment. 
What's the iPhone? 

1073
00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:28,900
What's Dynamic Island, the fuck 
here? 

1074
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,400
It's like, I should be another 
one next year. 

1075
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,700
That's what I thought, 12, we 
set. 

1076
00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:35,800
Our first interview was I have 
had a premise of the death of 

1077
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,000
Steve Jobs. 
Was a very big deal, in Silicon 

1078
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,100
Valley, a changed. 
There's a other lesser. 

1079
00:48:41,100 --> 00:48:44,700
People, whenever you think of 
him, he was still had a lot of 

1080
00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:47,400
really cool ideas. 
And you could argue with him 

1081
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,500
about it, and he liked debate. 
That was one interesting thing. 

1082
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,400
Other CEOs, don't like debate, 
he really did. 

1083
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,700
You guys definitely treated him 
like Jesus up there. 

1084
00:48:55,700 --> 00:48:58,000
It was no no, no. 
Yes you did. 

1085
00:48:58,400 --> 00:48:59,500
No. 
Hey what? 

1086
00:48:59,500 --> 00:49:03,000
Tim Cook literally said, like 
you think he told us not to ask?

1087
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,200
What would Steve Jobs do so we 
got there, there was that sure. 

1088
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,800
They knew enough to say. 
Okay, we're not going to treat 

1089
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,700
them like Jesus but he 
definitely had a sort of but but

1090
00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:14,200
st. 
Like iconic figures he was an 

1091
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,600
iconic figure and so he was the 
first interview. 

1092
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,600
Let me just tell you, he didn't 
need to come to Cody. 

1093
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,000
Came to all of the ones we asked
him today and he was, he gave as

1094
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,000
good as he got. 
I'll tell you that he never he 

1095
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,300
lied. 
Sometimes I said, yeah, I lied, 

1096
00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:29,400
he would argue you would say 
that's disingenuous Genuis he 

1097
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:30,900
goes isn't. 
Oh, I guess it is. 

1098
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:33,500
I'm really manipulate it. 
You, it was such a pleasure to 

1099
00:49:33,500 --> 00:49:37,400
interview him because it was, it
was challenged, you right? 

1100
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:38,300
Wasn't? 
He was given his. 

1101
00:49:38,700 --> 00:49:42,500
But I have to say, he wasn't, it
was always fascinating. 

1102
00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:44,900
It was always it insightful, 
that, that paragraph. 

1103
00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:48,000
He did at one of our codes about
privacy, go watch that thing. 

1104
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,700
That's a smart fucking person. 
Well, they're all great. 

1105
00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:53,000
I mean, they're fun to I mean, 
really, that's what I mean about

1106
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,200
Mark Zuckerberg. 
He doesn't have a, he should 

1107
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,200
have finished college, or at 
least read more, or something, 

1108
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,800
not College cause If Cliff left 
College, Steve was well, read 

1109
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,400
and thought very carefully and 
that's what I wanted to talk 

1110
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,100
about. 
The second part was it was the 

1111
00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:11,100
first interview was Steve and I 
wanted to talk about his legacy.

1112
00:50:11,100 --> 00:50:13,800
Like and so and the last part is
this, my fucking conference. 

1113
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,400
I'll do whatever I want, right? 
I want to, I wanted it to be 

1114
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,200
sentimental. 
I wanted it to be remember when 

1115
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,600
this was a lot simpler. 
Remember, when you didn't all 

1116
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,900
have all this money and all this
power remember when you were 

1117
00:50:26,900 --> 00:50:29,400
making things for the beauty of 
them, when technology, LG was 

1118
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,200
delightful, and it wasn't about 
a sort of rapacious suckage of 

1119
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,700
information or mother or a great
moment in that interview, you 

1120
00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:39,700
had Walt. 
Mossberg asked this question, 

1121
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,700
you know, would would Steve Jobs
have been as obsessed with the 

1122
00:50:43,700 --> 00:50:47,100
markets as the world is about 
Apple today and Tim Cook totally

1123
00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:49,500
agrees with that and says you 
know he would have been very 

1124
00:50:49,500 --> 00:50:53,500
product Focus but but to me it 
felt like such an implicit 

1125
00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:58,300
critique of Tim Cook that he is 
this Steward of a company. 

1126
00:50:58,300 --> 00:51:02,100
That's So, rooted making money, 
I think they do. 

1127
00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:04,300
If I had to pick companies that 
don't think about money, they'd 

1128
00:51:04,300 --> 00:51:06,600
be on the top of them. 
I don't, I don't the one that 

1129
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,500
makes the most. 
I mean that's sort of they 

1130
00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:10,700
didn't make a lot for a long 
time, right? 

1131
00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:12,500
That's in their heads, like in 
the head. 

1132
00:51:12,500 --> 00:51:14,500
So there was like, my 
grandmother grew up in the 

1133
00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:17,100
depression and she the end to 
lots of money at you were a 

1134
00:51:17,100 --> 00:51:18,900
house dress, right? 
Like all the time. 

1135
00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:23,200
And so I think they they're not 
as fixated on stuck or else they

1136
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,000
could think about. 
Let me go to someone else that I

1137
00:51:26,008 --> 00:51:28,000
interviewed recently. 
Monica Lewinsky, think of all 

1138
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:29,200
the things she could have done. 
Done. 

1139
00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:31,600
And the things she didn't, she 
could have written a tell-all. 

1140
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,800
She could have done 
documentaries about Bill 

1141
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:34,800
Clinton. 
You could talk about Bill 

1142
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,400
Clinton's penis for years. 
She never, did she made choices.

1143
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,400
She didn't think of the things 
Apple could do, if they really 

1144
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,900
wanted to make money, they could
have gone to Facebook route. 

1145
00:51:44,900 --> 00:51:48,000
They could have done, they could
have fucked privacy. 

1146
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:49,600
Why don't we do we care? 
We're sucking up all this 

1147
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,500
information. 
Yeah but there's a whole this 

1148
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:54,600
argument that this privacy 
campaign is good for apples 

1149
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:55,700
bottom. 
It is good there Apple. 

1150
00:51:55,700 --> 00:51:59,100
They roll out a new like you 
sort of joke, Tim Cook and At 

1151
00:51:59,100 --> 00:52:01,300
their latest like, super 
Innovative company and then it 

1152
00:52:01,300 --> 00:52:02,700
rolls out a new phone. 
Every year. 

1153
00:52:02,700 --> 00:52:05,500
That's like income come out, 
like apple, I love Apple 

1154
00:52:05,500 --> 00:52:08,100
products. 
He's a good Steward, but not 

1155
00:52:08,100 --> 00:52:11,400
here, it's not like you could 
think about what they could 

1156
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:12,900
pick. 
That's all I'm saying. 

1157
00:52:12,900 --> 00:52:16,100
And Facebook picked all those 
things and didn't mind it in any

1158
00:52:16,100 --> 00:52:17,900
way. 
Like yes, we're going to be a 

1159
00:52:17,900 --> 00:52:21,900
rapacious that will cause them a
information thief and they are, 

1160
00:52:21,900 --> 00:52:24,900
they are there rapacious 
information thieves and so I 

1161
00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:25,900
that's how I like to think of 
it. 

1162
00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:27,700
And then that question, I think 
he's correct. 

1163
00:52:27,700 --> 00:52:31,000
I think they If I had to pick a 
company cares about the quality 

1164
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,300
of the products them, I think. 
Evan Spiegel is another person, 

1165
00:52:34,300 --> 00:52:35,400
even if he's not, now, he's an 
eye. 

1166
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,700
On the other side is getting his
ass kicked, great products. 

1167
00:52:38,700 --> 00:52:40,900
That pixie is a wonderful 
product. 

1168
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:43,600
It's just not a good business, 
that's different. 

1169
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,600
Those are two different things. 
And maybe someday these things 

1170
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,800
will be well. 
And I always think of, like, you

1171
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,600
know, speaking of Apple, they 
made the Newton that didn't 

1172
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,800
work, but boy, was it 
directionally correct. 

1173
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,400
Right, there was another one 
General magic, the general magic

1174
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,700
device. 
It was IPhone, did your swear 

1175
00:53:00,700 --> 00:53:04,400
off asking about any beef 
between Tim Cook and Johnny 

1176
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:05,700
Iver? 
Well, you just didn't like it 

1177
00:53:05,700 --> 00:53:07,400
because I know it's not really 
true. 

1178
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,100
That's a, that's a press. 
They love. 

1179
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,200
Who don't you get along with it 
Bloomberg era. 

1180
00:53:11,300 --> 00:53:13,100
Its impact is not a guy who 
really liked goes off. 

1181
00:53:13,100 --> 00:53:15,100
Doesn't he just doesn't, it 
doesn't cut it. 

1182
00:53:15,300 --> 00:53:17,100
But seriously think about 
Bloomberg. 

1183
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:18,700
You guys are a fuck when you 
were there. 

1184
00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:21,100
What a hot fucking mess? 
Those people hate each other. 

1185
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:22,700
What's the fucking difference? 
I don't care. 

1186
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:25,300
Did it matter. 
I love all the conflicts 

1187
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,000
interpersonal, conflicts are 
some of the best news stories 

1188
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,900
down, I think. 
Also was what he be there if he 

1189
00:53:30,908 --> 00:53:32,700
they had a real beef now. 
Right? 

1190
00:53:32,700 --> 00:53:33,900
I agree. 
There's always this sort of 

1191
00:53:33,908 --> 00:53:36,400
like, oh, they have a beef but 
yet, they spent all this time. 

1192
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,400
Here's here's how I look at 
those stories. 

1193
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,200
Who the fuck cares, does it 
matter? 

1194
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,200
Does it matter? 
The same thing when we were 

1195
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,400
writing about Sergei sleeping, 
with the lady from glass, right?

1196
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:49,300
We had heard a lot there. 
Google was full of that kind of 

1197
00:53:49,300 --> 00:53:51,500
stuff, you know, for years. 
And some of it, we should have 

1198
00:53:51,500 --> 00:53:53,100
covered by the way, much 
heavier. 

1199
00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:54,800
But it was a, it was a different
time. 

1200
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,500
Like there was a okay, Andy 
Rubin stuff. 

1201
00:53:56,500 --> 00:53:58,600
Yes, we did. 
We did cover that we did cover 

1202
00:53:58,600 --> 00:53:59,900
that But let me just tell you 
why. 

1203
00:53:59,900 --> 00:54:05,900
Wait, but we absolutely, we 
broke that story because he was 

1204
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,500
sleeping with someone who was 
running a major Division, and it

1205
00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:12,300
had huge repercussions within 
the company including the 

1206
00:54:12,308 --> 00:54:15,900
divorce on the stock. 
So it was a business story with 

1207
00:54:15,900 --> 00:54:17,300
everyone sort of was like, why 
are you covering their 

1208
00:54:17,300 --> 00:54:18,800
personalized? 
I'm like, are you kidding me? 

1209
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,700
This is a business story and so 
that's what I'm saying. 

1210
00:54:21,700 --> 00:54:24,300
If Johnny Ivan, Tim Cook not 
getting along affected the 

1211
00:54:24,308 --> 00:54:25,600
business. 
You sure as hell. 

1212
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:27,800
We never it otherwise, I don't 
care. 

1213
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,900
Can I go back? 
For a second to to Steve Jobs 

1214
00:54:30,900 --> 00:54:34,100
and we can, maybe end up right 
here and his death sort of being

1215
00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:36,800
a significant moment for Silicon
Valley, because this also 

1216
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,200
relates to the other great 
moment that you've had in the 

1217
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,300
code allthingsd, you know, 
history, which was, you know, 

1218
00:54:42,300 --> 00:54:46,700
the the Bill Gates Steve Jobs 
interview in 2007, which is, you

1219
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:49,800
know, I watched it the other 
day, it's genuinely moving. 

1220
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,900
It is was wonderful and my take 
away from it and I think that we

1221
00:54:52,900 --> 00:54:56,100
forget when you watch Steve 
Jobs, the guy is amazingly 

1222
00:54:56,100 --> 00:55:00,200
charismatic in a way that I you 
just See among CEOs. 

1223
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,900
These days I mean like when he 
talks you listen, he knows how 

1224
00:55:02,908 --> 00:55:05,900
to tell a story, you know, that,
he means this things that he 

1225
00:55:05,900 --> 00:55:08,500
says, which is not usually the 
case with a lot. 

1226
00:55:08,500 --> 00:55:11,300
Even when he commits himself to 
mean the lies that he gave a 

1227
00:55:11,300 --> 00:55:12,900
yeah, I'm not saying he's a 
truthful guy. 

1228
00:55:12,900 --> 00:55:21,200
Think you're an adult Tom asked 
his question. 

1229
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:23,400
Yeah, actually I've gone back 
and forth as a tech reporter is 

1230
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,800
to like the role that Steve Jobs
plays because people do deify 

1231
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:28,700
him because he is so much more 
interesting. 

1232
00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:30,800
I think that a lot of the 
characters these days, but I 

1233
00:55:30,808 --> 00:55:33,400
also see him as kind of a 
destructive force because so 

1234
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:37,000
many CEOs want to be like him 
and just aren't they don't, they

1235
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:39,200
don't want to be like him. 
They actually want the, the 

1236
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,500
shitty Parts. 
Like, look, if you go back now 

1237
00:55:41,500 --> 00:55:43,200
and look at everyone is so 
difficult. 

1238
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:46,200
I'm like really like, on any 
given fucking Tuesday, March 

1239
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,300
Elon Musk has 17 more offensive 
things in Steve Jobs, said his 

1240
00:55:49,300 --> 00:55:51,800
whole life, right? 
And Steve Jobs would face his 

1241
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,200
critics. 
Whereas Elon is now he just 

1242
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,600
teaches Rags them. 
I can't imagine Steve Jobs 

1243
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:57,900
behaving. 
I don't think he'd like it at 

1244
00:55:57,900 --> 00:55:59,100
all. 
He'd be like what the What are 

1245
00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:01,500
you doing, dude? 
Like at the stuff around the car

1246
00:56:01,500 --> 00:56:02,800
driving. 
I was joking about. 

1247
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:04,900
He like act like a jerk, but who
cares me parked funny? 

1248
00:56:04,900 --> 00:56:06,000
Like, that was always this to 
remember. 

1249
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:07,900
That was a story. 
Yeah, sure you guys parking in 

1250
00:56:07,900 --> 00:56:09,900
like, other people's spaces and 
the handicapped. 

1251
00:56:09,900 --> 00:56:11,000
Right. 
Whatever. 

1252
00:56:11,300 --> 00:56:13,600
It's so minor. 
It's so like he shouldn't Park 

1253
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:15,000
in a handicap gum, but he's 
dead. 

1254
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,300
So, here we are. 
And so, one of the things that I

1255
00:56:18,308 --> 00:56:22,500
think has happened is they tried
to be cheap versions of him and 

1256
00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:26,400
shitty versions of him. 
And he wasn't a shitty version 

1257
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,200
himself. 
He was warts and all very Uncle 

1258
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,600
to be obstreperous. 
But he was also passionate and 

1259
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,600
creative and interesting and 
constantly thinking and he could

1260
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:40,300
be an asshole to these guys are 
mostly an asshole and can be 

1261
00:56:40,300 --> 00:56:43,200
creative with the one that 
disappoints Mimosa Ceylon who I 

1262
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,200
actually like, I had them last 
year. 

1263
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:47,100
I thought about having them this
year, I asked him and then I 

1264
00:56:47,100 --> 00:56:49,600
thought no, no, maybe not. 
I didn't want to deal with you 

1265
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:51,700
wanting this year. 
This is a perfect time to him. 

1266
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,600
He said, no, but nobody 
challenges this guy. 

1267
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,100
I mean that would have been 
valuable you want just goes on 

1268
00:56:57,100 --> 00:56:59,800
the fucking all in you know. 
For instance, they just asked 

1269
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:01,800
him. 
Nothing for the following three 

1270
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:02,600
minute. 
I agree. 

1271
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:04,100
I agree. 
But you know what? 

1272
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,500
I just didn't want to listen to 
him. 

1273
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,100
I've heard enough from him at. 
That's what I felt like. 

1274
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,300
I could. 
He's not, he's doing stuff in 

1275
00:57:10,300 --> 00:57:13,000
plain sight and I don't think 
he'd do any insights and we 

1276
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,500
would argue and people might be 
entertained, but it just would 

1277
00:57:16,500 --> 00:57:17,500
be. 
I feel like if you're going to 

1278
00:57:17,508 --> 00:57:20,000
do it, you need to beg him to 
take it good night's sleep 

1279
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,100
beforehand, like half the time, 
I just was like, you know what, 

1280
00:57:23,100 --> 00:57:26,200
when you come back to and by the
way, I find him to be a genuine 

1281
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:30,400
Visionary, I really do when he 
could When he wakes up and wants

1282
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,200
to act like a man, he can call 
me. 

1283
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:33,800
That's how I feel like it. 
You know what I mean? 

1284
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,500
Like, and if he wants to make 
dumb mean jokes, I like them. 

1285
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:37,900
I like them. 
Those are funny. 

1286
00:57:38,100 --> 00:57:41,200
But some of this is bullshit and
I just didn't want to hear it. 

1287
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,600
I just didn't hear it, he didn't
say yes, right, I do, I wrote 

1288
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,000
him, I asked him. 
So, I mean politics was such a 

1289
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,300
huge part of the conference. 
You had the candidates, but then

1290
00:57:49,300 --> 00:57:52,700
there's this, also, the tech 
political moderates, dealing 

1291
00:57:52,700 --> 00:57:55,000
with politics. 
I mean, you had Mark Cuban shirt

1292
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:56,200
of professing to hate. 
Yep. 

1293
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:58,700
Democrats and Republicans. 
Somewhat equally probable. 

1294
00:57:58,900 --> 00:58:01,300
Is sort of most negative 
comments or about Elizabeth 

1295
00:58:01,300 --> 00:58:04,500
Warren. 
And then in the the yeah, which 

1296
00:58:04,500 --> 00:58:08,300
I thought was strange personally
but the oh, I know given his 

1297
00:58:08,300 --> 00:58:11,300
political views anyway. 
But then on the the Tim Cook 

1298
00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:15,300
Jony Ive Laurene, Powell jobs 
interview, you know, Laureen. 

1299
00:58:15,300 --> 00:58:19,300
And Tim both said that they 
thought Steve Jobs would have 

1300
00:58:19,300 --> 00:58:23,300
been upset about the political 
partisan moment, but I didn't 

1301
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:26,400
feel like they spelled out 
whether they would you be upset 

1302
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,800
about trumpism cancel culture? 
Or like what? 

1303
00:58:30,100 --> 00:58:32,300
I felt like and they didn't 
really they weren't willing to 

1304
00:58:32,308 --> 00:58:35,200
go to her and say what they do. 
You think it was trumpets? 

1305
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,700
Trump is MM. 
Oh Lorraine has been very on the

1306
00:58:37,707 --> 00:58:39,600
record. 
She she has but Tim Cook 

1307
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:44,300
obviously I mean this in a world
already has to deal with the 

1308
00:58:44,300 --> 00:58:47,000
federal government gives. 
No you can't just go like 

1309
00:58:47,100 --> 00:58:49,200
because he's a stock price 
Optimizer. 

1310
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:53,900
I mean that's that's the girl. 
It's not his personality to he's

1311
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:55,900
not he's very measured. 
He just is this. 

1312
00:58:55,900 --> 00:58:57,600
Just the way he is. 
You may not like it but that's 

1313
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,800
what he's like. 
He's Hiding or anything else is 

1314
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,600
just not, he doesn't want to 
just want to gauge it would, 

1315
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,700
he's not very, he's very 
supportive of gay issues, but he

1316
00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:09,200
could be very like I'm a big gay
stop hanging with the gays but 

1317
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:10,300
he's just not, that's not the 
gay. 

1318
00:59:10,300 --> 00:59:12,200
He is so whatever. 
I don't know what to tell you, 

1319
00:59:13,100 --> 00:59:16,300
but I think that she was saying,
one of the things that was 

1320
00:59:16,300 --> 00:59:17,500
really striking about Steve 
Jobs. 

1321
00:59:17,500 --> 00:59:19,600
And most people don't know. 
This is, he had a relationship 

1322
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,600
with Rupert Murdoch and what he 
was trying to do was change his 

1323
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,500
mind. 
He always tried I'll be like, 

1324
00:59:24,500 --> 00:59:28,100
no, this no that you're being 
very negative instead of saying 

1325
00:59:28,100 --> 00:59:31,400
you suck, Suck and you're like 
the way I liked with Jon 

1326
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,300
Stewart, did you know, you're 
ruining our country to Tucker 

1327
00:59:34,300 --> 00:59:38,600
Carlson many years ago he did a 
very behind the scenes trying to

1328
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:42,400
convince Rupert Murdoch. 
What he was doing was dangerous 

1329
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,000
and that's what, you know, Anand
was talking about with 

1330
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:48,400
persuasion and some people 
today, that's not good enough. 

1331
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:51,200
We have to all have to be like 
pitchforks at each other. 

1332
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,100
That's the only way. 
The only way is going to be a 

1333
00:59:53,107 --> 00:59:55,900
Civil War and that's that. 
I think it would have been an 

1334
00:59:55,900 --> 00:59:58,700
interesting moment which she was
saying is even here. 

1335
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,300
Who would engage with people. 
He didn't agree with couldn't 

1336
01:00:02,300 --> 01:00:04,200
have handled. 
This moment would bet would have

1337
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,600
been opposed to Donald Trump 
would have been vocal about it. 

1338
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,700
I think that's what, that's what
it, but it's all. 

1339
01:00:09,700 --> 01:00:12,300
Yeah, I don't know. 
I feel like a Logitech 73 otic, 

1340
01:00:12,300 --> 01:00:15,700
what's happening with. 
I think it would have appalled 

1341
01:00:15,700 --> 01:00:19,500
hemp and the time I knew him, he
was an odd. 

1342
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:21,800
You never knew where it was 
coming from, but one of the 

1343
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,700
things I'll tell one story. 
The Last Story I told one story 

1344
01:00:25,700 --> 01:00:28,200
when he said came out and told 
me ping sucked the day they 

1345
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:30,100
announced. 
It, which I loved about that. 

1346
01:00:30,100 --> 01:00:32,200
It's like it does sucks. 
Doesn't I'm going to get rid of 

1347
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:37,800
it and he he came out one time 
and Walt wasn't there. 

1348
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:39,100
He loved world. 
You know what I mean? 

1349
01:00:39,100 --> 01:00:41,500
And he when he saw me he's like 
he's at first I was just 

1350
01:00:41,500 --> 01:00:43,900
irritating and then he kind of 
liked me, but I don't really 

1351
01:00:43,900 --> 01:00:46,700
care. 
It's a get whatever, he but he 

1352
01:00:46,700 --> 01:00:49,300
liked Waltz, he just like, well 
better, that's all they had a 

1353
01:00:49,300 --> 01:00:52,200
really interesting and unique 
relationship because they had 

1354
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,300
been young and fucked up when he
met wall. 

1355
01:00:54,300 --> 01:00:57,500
Like he wasn't Steve Jobs, he 
was on the ropes when he knew 

1356
01:00:57,900 --> 01:01:00,700
wall at the Thing with Gates, 
you know, he started the company

1357
01:01:00,700 --> 01:01:03,300
when he Wold and stuff. 
So they had a very different 

1358
01:01:03,300 --> 01:01:06,200
relationship and he came out and
he was looking for a while, you 

1359
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,400
can see he's like, I want he 
wanted to see what Walt thought 

1360
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,400
of is what he made and he wasn't
there, she always liked his 

1361
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:12,700
inside. 
He was always looking for that. 

1362
01:01:12,700 --> 01:01:15,500
That was 100% true. 
He said, he always wanted. 

1363
01:01:15,500 --> 01:01:17,600
He always called people Lorraine
talked about that. 

1364
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:19,400
He did. 
He called people constantly. 

1365
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:24,100
He wasn't as confident as he 
seemed, he definitely wanted 

1366
01:01:24,100 --> 01:01:26,100
people to know what they 
thought, what they made and this

1367
01:01:26,107 --> 01:01:28,400
and that. 
And so he was looking for Walt 

1368
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,200
to get An insight into what they
had done and they had done a 

1369
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:35,600
thing, an iPad that you could 
use with the keyboard and I 

1370
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,700
think it was one, something like
that, it wasn't a keyboard but 

1371
01:01:37,700 --> 01:01:40,700
it was in it and stuff. 
And so he was sort of looking 

1372
01:01:40,700 --> 01:01:42,200
for him. 
He was sort of crestfallen that 

1373
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:44,700
wasn't there. 
It was like, oh okay. 

1374
01:01:44,700 --> 01:01:46,500
Yeah I'll talk to you. 
You're the closest thing to 

1375
01:01:46,500 --> 01:01:50,500
Walt. 
And so he came up to me and he's

1376
01:01:50,500 --> 01:01:52,000
like, where's Walt? 
And I was like, okay, we're 

1377
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,800
going to be talking about Walt 
and I said he's in Paris with 

1378
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:57,200
his wife on vacation. 
He hasn't taken a vacation 100 

1379
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,200
years and she wouldn't let him 
Take the laptop. 

1380
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,500
So he wouldn't work because that
was, you know, this was pretty a

1381
01:02:03,500 --> 01:02:06,400
lot of this stuff and but she 
took the iPad that has the 

1382
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:11,000
keyboard, and he wanted to see 
if he could live without a key, 

1383
01:02:11,300 --> 01:02:14,400
you know, that life, you know, 
with he could do it and I said, 

1384
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,400
but but and it's working because
this is working really well, 

1385
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:21,000
actually, he's finding it very 
useful to type on the iPad if 

1386
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,200
you've ever seen Waltz very fast
on an iPad. 

1387
01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:26,200
And as I said in, she's pissed, 
she's pissed right now because 

1388
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:30,200
it's working, and he looked at 
me, He goes, I could turn it 

1389
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:37,800
off. 
I have to say, I like you. 

1390
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:41,200
Oh my God, I said you could he 
goes oh yeah. 

1391
01:02:41,700 --> 01:02:57,900
One call afterwards 
but and and malevolent way, but 

1392
01:02:57,900 --> 01:02:59,500
it was one of the I love that 
woman. 

1393
01:02:59,500 --> 01:03:01,800
Yeah, he could really tell a 
joke and that also comes through

1394
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:03,600
in your interview with him and 
Bill Gates. 

1395
01:03:03,900 --> 01:03:05,500
Yeah, he's he's done. 
Really fun day. 

1396
01:03:05,500 --> 01:03:10,400
One for many years now. 
Ha ha ha that God Gates behind 

1397
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:13,400
the scenes, it was even better, 
wait back in the green room 

1398
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:16,600
without I'll be writing about in
my Memoir, but it was, they had 

1399
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:18,700
such a relationship, but when I 
said what? 

1400
01:03:18,700 --> 01:03:20,400
Wait, I'm sorry. 
Did you say he called Bill Gates

1401
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:21,000
gay? 
I didn't know. 

1402
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:22,800
This is what he did. 
I said, what something about 

1403
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,600
your relationship that you don't
that people don't know. 

1404
01:03:25,700 --> 01:03:30,600
And he said for a long time now 
we've been married And it was so

1405
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:36,100
great because he knew that Bill 
Gates, wasn't anti-gay, but he 

1406
01:03:36,100 --> 01:03:39,100
was uncomfortable, many straight
men are when you make a remarks 

1407
01:03:39,100 --> 01:03:41,900
at her and so, Bill Gates, you 
can see if you were sitting us 

1408
01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:43,200
in. 
His eyes was like what do I say 

1409
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,800
if I say something anti-gay, I 
can't do that and yet I'm not 

1410
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:47,100
gay. 
I want to say I'm okay. 

1411
01:03:47,300 --> 01:03:51,800
And he was like huh? 
He got him he performed him and 

1412
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:53,700
see jobs. 
Love doing that to Bill Gates. 

1413
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,800
Well yeah, did it all the time. 
My favorite thing? 

1414
01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:00,600
I think this is from the Walter 
Isaacson Steve Jobs biography 

1415
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:02,700
was saying that the big mistake 
that Bill Gates made is that he 

1416
01:04:02,700 --> 01:04:04,800
never took acid in the 60s. 
Uh-huh. 

1417
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:06,700
And that's why I never had a 
creative bone in his body. 

1418
01:04:06,700 --> 01:04:10,100
True is interesting. 
Cause I don't think any of those

1419
01:04:10,100 --> 01:04:11,900
people on the stage of like the 
Walter Isaacson book, 

1420
01:04:11,900 --> 01:04:14,000
interesting. 
Lee enough, I think one of the 

1421
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:16,600
things they people got wrong, 
think it's accurate. 

1422
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:20,200
Some of it, some of it, it did, 
here's what I don't think it 

1423
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:22,700
got, and I like Walter, he's 
working on a Ilan book, he's 

1424
01:04:22,700 --> 01:04:24,700
with the enormity of time. 
Now, just crazy. 

1425
01:04:24,700 --> 01:04:27,600
Walters always in the right 
place the right time or the 

1426
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:31,400
wrong time, whatever. 
So by he's a very talented man. 

1427
01:04:31,700 --> 01:04:35,300
Yeah, I think what it got wrong 
and what many stuff gets wrong 

1428
01:04:35,300 --> 01:04:38,100
and I set it on stage. 
Is everybody thought? 

1429
01:04:38,100 --> 01:04:40,400
Steve Jobs was heartless. 
He was not heartless. 

1430
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:45,000
He was, he had too much and it 
manifested itself in good ways 

1431
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,600
and really unpleasant ways. 
And so when he didn't like 

1432
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:52,400
something, it came out stronger.
Like he just don't say, like I 

1433
01:04:52,408 --> 01:04:55,100
don't want to say he cared more,
but he cared too much in some 

1434
01:04:55,100 --> 01:04:59,600
cases and I think he he was too 
passionate and And he was 

1435
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:02,800
aggressive in that way. 
And I think that there's a very 

1436
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:05,100
big difference between being 
heartless and having too much 

1437
01:05:05,100 --> 01:05:06,800
heart. 
It can manifest itself, doesn't 

1438
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:08,400
make you nice if you have too 
much hardness. 

1439
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:11,200
And so, I think that was again, 
like I was saying and I'll end 

1440
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,400
on this. 
People are complex, these people

1441
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,900
are complex and now they have 
enormous power. 

1442
01:05:16,500 --> 01:05:20,400
And no matter what happens 
character outs, right, your 

1443
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:23,100
shitty person and then you 
suddenly get a lot of power. 

1444
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:26,500
Hello, Donald Trump. 
Your he's a shitty pretty be a 

1445
01:05:26,500 --> 01:05:30,000
shitty person poor, right? 
He's Is it a shitty parents? 

1446
01:05:30,300 --> 01:05:34,400
He never was hugged as a child. 
He was also a bad seat of power 

1447
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:36,800
you know you can sort of laughs 
at own Trump but with power like

1448
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,900
you're saying so yeah it because
it's so that's what these people

1449
01:05:39,900 --> 01:05:42,900
are like and so they. 
So I spend myself understanding 

1450
01:05:42,900 --> 01:05:44,700
them as people a lot of time and
I don't want to hug them. 

1451
01:05:44,700 --> 01:05:46,400
I don't want to be their friends
at all. 

1452
01:05:46,500 --> 01:05:49,100
Some of them might be. 
I've liked I like quite a bit. 

1453
01:05:49,300 --> 01:05:50,700
I'd like Mark Cuban. 
I really do. 

1454
01:05:50,700 --> 01:05:53,100
I like them personally I always 
find something interesting 

1455
01:05:53,100 --> 01:05:56,700
talking about but some people 
are like, Brian chesky. 

1456
01:05:56,700 --> 01:05:58,000
I really like him. 
I like him. 

1457
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,300
I can see, Trying and struggling
to be a better precise like Evan

1458
01:06:01,300 --> 01:06:03,400
in that way. 
And by the way, Evan and I 

1459
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,400
started off being very testy 
with each other because of a lot

1460
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:09,600
of his frat, bro, thing. 
But he's involved in the way. 

1461
01:06:09,900 --> 01:06:11,200
Yeah, exactly. 
Right. 

1462
01:06:11,300 --> 01:06:12,600
He's better. 
Yeah. 

1463
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,800
If I think it would hurt a lot. 
Same thing with the same thing 

1464
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:17,700
with the with gates in a weird 
way. 

1465
01:06:18,900 --> 01:06:21,400
Boy, did we have a real problem 
with each other? 

1466
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:24,400
We could talk to you. 
I don't want to take you anyway.

1467
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:26,400
Thank you. 
I see you've got me talking. 

1468
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:31,100
See, I'm not a memoir. 
Yeah, when's that out when I 

1469
01:06:31,100 --> 01:06:34,100
write it and I finish it, I 
don't know. 

1470
01:06:34,100 --> 01:06:36,700
It's going to be funny. 
I'll tell you that it's going to

1471
01:06:36,707 --> 01:06:38,700
be fun. 
I'm not settling scores I mean, 

1472
01:06:38,700 --> 01:06:42,200
well, I will and by being funny 
but, you know, cool. 

1473
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:43,600
All right. 
Tell me about you, Eric. 

1474
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,300
It's gonna be my time with area.
Exactly. 

1475
01:06:46,300 --> 01:06:53,900
That's volume to reporters. 
Thank you. 

1476
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:56,800
Thanks for coming on. 
Thanks, Karen anytime. 

1477
01:07:09,500 --> 01:07:12,800
Goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, 

1478
01:07:12,900 --> 01:07:13,900
goodbye. 
Goodbye.