Welcome, welcome to dead cat. We have been Gravely betray.
This is the end of the ERA. This is a breaking news.
The podcast is imploding. There's the wheat.
There's a we in that stuff. Is we the audience?
We have. I committed a front against the
entire deck. Heck, yeah.
Yeah. Exactly.
The Diehard fans, the thousands of listeners.
You know, you it's merry Christmas everybody.
Your podcasts talking is filled with coal, you know, that
there's like a percentage of our audience.
I don't know what percent may be a minority that's just like he's
fucking gone. Thank God this guy's out like I
was I was dragging ass on this show.
Yeah. So Tom is leaving for a
different startup? Yes gonna go join a little known
publication called The Wall Street.
Yeah. After eight great years, a dead
cat, it's time to Happy Trails for me.
I got my LinkedIn post right here for my leaving.
Todd cat know, like Eric said, and as I've tweeted, I am
joining the Wall Street Journal and they have requested.
How do I say? They'll get here.
Bringing the kibosh down, you know.
They're they're a large Media company and so they want to make
sure that Tom is not creating competing products and we know
that dead cat and the Wall Street journal's podcast
division are in it. In a heated battle.
For dominance. Yeah, yeah, this is a rival.
That's the key. I will just say that as I found
out in my early onboarding, to the Wall Street Journal, a lot
of Journal listeners to this show and so hey everybody out
there, I know through journaling or listening to this to you.
No no I love my bosses and I love my new co-workers and Of
standards and practices and editorial discretion.
And, and look, I've we have said on this show that the journal is
probably the most reliable source for Tech news and they're
judicious nasaw. Unfortunately is I wouldn't want
to have to bear it myself personally, but I'm not it
exists. And the people have to be sort
of st. Like no opinion have a I gave up
that life. Well, we're not good luck to
you. Tom, well you tell me though
because yeah this is just step one of two.
The second one is when Mike Bloomberg buys the journal
apparently and we have to figure out how the melding of you know,
Bloomberg and you know everything is you know,
everything is on the table. You can do whatever you want.
Melds with the more straight. I'm joking, right?
Isn't Bloomberg. Also like a strict.
Oh Bloomberg Bloomberg. All I remember is that everybody
knew my life minute to minute? Because not only do you swipe in
with your badge and swipe out. So know when you're done
building, they know when your keyboard is not Use, so it gets
pretty in today. Do you think he's been tracking
a Bloomberg? Does he just sit over here?
We get your backpack enough to Bloomberg.
They send you home to go. Get it.
It's like, you're like an elementary school student.
Yeah, they will all my boss like Ida security guard.
Tell me this, this is going to the highest levels, you know, my
badge failures. I remember when I got packages
sent to the office, which I've done at every place, I've worked
even when I was a waitress, when I got mail sent to the office
that I needed to. Pick up because I don't live in
a fancy doorman building. That was also a security matter
and that to have a real conversation about it, but
that's Bloomberg. None of us is worked at the Wall
Street Journal. We don't know which foibles that
they have, you'll have to, you have to let us know tells
through a pseudonym, I guess. But our very special guest Dom
totin that would be a good bit. We like have this, like,
Anonymous character that they can never sort of totally proved
is you, it's like, it just sounds like yeah, I'm getting
worse. From someone who's appeared on
this show before. Yeah, I'd love for my first
introduction to the journal standard and practices to be is
me submitting content to a podcast under a pseudonym.
Which I'm talking about interior, you know, politics of
the company that I don't think it's strange that this show is
popular among reporters and people to Wall Street Journal.
And yet there been any whatever they're not Banning me.
They're asking me for a little bit of a timeout.
On board with the team. See you guys back here in a
couple of yes, taking back the podcast, you want to talk about
what the show is going to be like going forward so you can
back it to be able excited about it.
All right it's all money is sense.
Going for none of this tomfoolery.
You know none of this tomfoolery could have been the name of the
show. Yeah.
Yeah, well I don't know. I mean I think in January I'm
going to experiment with different configurations.
I mean Katie I'm a regular regular special guests can come
on, but I think I will experiment with format, you
know, I don't know. This is not a key part of the
show, we're gonna keep going. All of it.
I wasn't told by the way, I couldn't have an only fans so
that that maybe my outlet. Well you know the problem with
co-host is they cut in? You know, if it's a one-on-one
interview show I just I can I can be a more Kara Swisher, like
figure and just sort of really get all my opinions out which
right now. I feel like I'm only getting
diapers. Are we talking the free flow of
newcomer a pin, right? That Zack made you a character
on Twitter for 20-25 minutes or so my God.
How do you know? I'm not on Twitter anymore.
Well, I got it, this fucking thing.
Brought me back to Twitter. It was like, you were Breeze was
like a trauma for me, okay? So, you know, the New York Times
broke this story about this congressman, who faked his
resume, right? Very, very very and then there
were some like, son, I don't know, George said liberal
leftist, I can't quite tell where their Parker Malloy fans,
I don't even know what that means.
Continue some account. So, so I just make the point.
They like it's ridiculous to criticize the outlet that scoop
It's the story for failing to scoop it earlier, and like the
last person you should criticize are the actual people doing the
scooping and like any other institution in the world should
be blamed before them, and of course, defending the York Times
is the one thing that everybody hates on Twitter left, right or
Center people are low. So we're defending the New York
Times in the Shell of Defending a Michael Barbaro tweet which I
think, oh my God, exponentially more.
Don't think those when other people are taking Ells.
So my Twitter and then and then of course you know me like
you've heard of suicide by cop. This is like suicide by Barbaro.
So people are coming at me and I'm replying to every single one
of them. You know, I'm just like are you
doing so? So all my followers are like
more aware of this and they ever would have been because instead
of just getting all these random replies, I'm like engaging with
everybody in like you went for a boy, it's sort of telling people
like fuck off. I said something like, you know,
liberals, who are upset that like, I don't know the New York
Times isn't giving them scoops and what did I say about the
right? Anyway, I just don't ask me to
recline. I told the left and right to
both go fuck yourselves on Twitter and that year and then I
was a little surprised. Why people were so angry at me.
You know what I mean? The responses are idiotic, I
mean, literally, you get people saying like, well, I enjoyed
this one. Somebody was like You don't have
any friends and I replied to them if I didn't have my Downs,
wouldn't it be really mean of you to say that to me?
Like, I do. They're like drinking.
I thought, luckily, I was like you're a sad person.
If you were to say something like right there supposed to be
nice, you know, I don't know if you're carrying is supposed to
be part like isn't the point of having when you see p Buddha,
just dating space benefits for people that you want to extend
your compassion to people. You don't know.
Like I feel like that should translate.
I think you misheard your ass. Equitable like, interpersonal
Behavior. I think you misinterpreted what
it means to be a liberal today, but to me, the liberal tell you
that means testing for emotions. It's just like well if you are
below a certain income bracket, then I suppose I should extend
some elements of empathy to you. Oh my God.
Yeah and then I got some white side, some average white guy
with an opinion, you know? It's just like that is.
Oh, that's the name of your new podcast, maybe?
Yeah, right whatever. Me to do is lean into a race
politics. That's that's what the baltics
should be about, just sort of all you, come on.
Sure. You know, like they're like more
of that. Well click on that as part of
the show's gonna say I guess that Tom and I will actually
never be guests again because I love to come back to.
Yeah, my new editor is at the journal and asked it reappear on
the new race Focus dead cat, what it's all about.
It's like no, no, no. The format has changed a bit.
Since you guys were concerned at thrown out.
All about like cranial shapes. Okay.
So Eric that was um yeah watch watch this space.
It sounds like, what's the scale to close off?
Maybe this I literally had someone in my diems, by the way,
saying that it looked like I was about to go on Tucker Carlson
it's like I'm here jobbed by all these leftist but they want to
dream up a world where I'm like suddenly on the most powerful
platform. You know, it's just like oh yeah
you guys are all booing me. Constantly, but it's me, who's
about to oppress you all like, it's like this am at.
It's just like, total like story crafting, you know?
They just I, it is insane. So, clearly, this is something
that's still very present for you.
And this radicalize me, you know, hey, hey, a professional.
Therapist might want to walk through with you a couple times
to say week, so we can all move on, but I also like Tom, right?
Bring it up and and I also So like the idea of Eric going over
this with his therapist and everybody did but I was bragging
about, I'm like I'm fighting with them.
Like fuck them - I can only imagine what your therapist
right. It was writing down her fucking
notepad. Yeah.
Well she was in the wreck lies. This is why I don't really use
Twitter so much. But hey, Gary.
You were like trying to wean yourself off of it, right?
It's like an artery really doing the whole fight, on the web
browser, mobile web browser version of Twitter.
Like that's how like it's like everyone to a methadone clinic
and immediately bottom down. It's just now I know why your
therapist didn't say anything. And that first session because
she was just like we got it. There's we got a he has to get
to a place where he can start unpacking this on his own
before. I closely help him.
Let's see if we can try to make this into something useful for
the broader audience. Well, I was going to say So,
part of the year in review that we were planning was to think
about Twitter, I didn't realize that Eric had been engaging with
it so, so ardently over the last couple weeks.
Oh, so, when there clearly are experience might tell us
something about the direction of new Twitter and you whom on
Twitter who? Well I guess what I sort of
gathered through this episode taking newcomer out of it,
specifically, is that it all it all kind of went through the
same cycle that Twitter outrage Cycles have gone You're over the
past couple of years which is like, there's a character,
people pylon at some point. There's an article in like a
Gawker, you know, subsidiary or something.
That affects coffee people. Excuse me, I was mentioned, I'm
a stack this Parker Malloy person.
It was behind a pay wall though. I mean she was just using me as
like as if I was like a New York Times Reporter when I wasn't,
but I think they called you like a like a VC freak, or something
like that. But, but anyway, that's what we
call Eric. I'm not sufficiently deferential
and then the rest of the world. This is what drives me,
literally, we had this podcast where were fighting with Antonio
Garcia Martinez and I'm like arguing for the left.
And then meanwhile before that's published, I'm eating it from
the left. It's just like, man, you really
not. This is my self-righteous thing.
You can say, but you can't be an independent thinker anymore.
You got to align with one side or the other otherwise people
are just going to boo. Boo, okay.
But here's here's what I, here's what I was thinking as as a
cycle Through its, you know, stations like it all felt fairly
deflated to me, you know? Like it was it was this thing
that we've seen happened for the last couple of years and it
sounds like the like the fries on that exist in these things.
It wasn't there anymore. Like I just feel like we're
going through the motions of it was like black people weren't
really no one's interested in this anymore which is to me more
than anything. The reason I, you know, taking
even Elan out of it, why? I'm just not I just don't expect
Twitter to matter as much in the future.
Feeling about the Elan of it all people just don't, they're kind
of just done. It was running on fumes or it
was getting to that point. The one counter to that is my
bizarre meltdown on Twitter. Definitely penetrated.
Like my real life, like, I had people be like, what's going on
like you, are you okay, you know, like so definitely normies
became aware of it, you know, and people who never interact
with my Tweets, we're like very, very aware.
So I do think Twitter's our reach is Bigger than represented
which is why he left trying to do this whole weird view count
thing right now. But yeah, which again, when I
released my fake statement distancing myself from you and I
got messages from people saying, hey, my mom didn't understand
your Tweet. Exactly.
That was hysterical. By the way, there is a
penetration outside the world that that is even more reason
for journalists to not be on there but if you but let's just
go with my argument that it isn't maybe you know as
motivating to people has as it was Yas.
Couple of years. Quit what is it?
What does it mean for journalists?
Like because I mean Katie you've been off maybe more than the
three of us but yeah pay attention to shit online.
Continue though it's just like just as I'm giving up my
independent platform where in my and going to a big sort of
faceless Media Company. Maybe that's like the narrative
at the moment where everybody is if there is a face of her Thomas
Media company is the face of Rupert Murdoch, it's huge it
looms large like the a but journalism or Right.
Twitter has meant so much to the way a lot of journalists have
decided whether or not their stories have impact and like the
conversation that's happening around it.
And even as I was kind of sort of off it over the last couple
months, I did sort of you do miss a little bit, the kind of
what, you know what engagement is my story getting what is the
conversation around it. And I am kind of curious to your
both your thoughts on like if we are entering a world where
Twitter just matters less and journalists are spending less
time on their and viewing the success and penetration of their
stories. Not through how much people are
talking about on Twitter, but throughout some other prism, I
mean, what does that word even look like?
Like, how do you decide whether your story is having impact?
If you're not at least taking into account, you know, the
people that are talking about it one way or the other on Twitter.
That's so funny because I feel like my weird-ass experience
being in Washington which has been super weird.
Is basically what you just described like there are a lot
of Washington reporters for on Twitter and very active and
whatever and their Get talked about a lot, but then, there are
some reporters who are really not on it at all, truly, like, I
would say, the entire National Security team at the New York
Times is like not on Twitter, you know.
Julian, Barnes my colleague, Mazzetti went mad.
Apuzzo was still in DC before he went to Brussels to be are like
head of Investigations there. He like stop tweeting all
together, our Congressional reporter, Nick fan, Des was
literally never on Twitter. The entire time, he covered the
entire Intel. Around Trump and to impeachments
and it did not impact the reach of their stories is what I would
say. Nor did it really like, I don't
think you would judge their work and its success by whether or
not people were talking about on Twitter or whether or not they
were on Twitter the stories were the stories.
So like a secret drone program, right?
So I mean insane about of hastens his take on that episode
and you were trying to push for me.
What was interesting is it's clear.
He's never heard of any of those people or read stories like I
think no, I mean, like he won't you have time for a story but
he's a penetrated, his Consciousness but he has no
idea. No.
I mean, like he kept talking about this one story that I
never heard of about a suitcase company.
Like it was a front panel talking about a secret drone
program. And I can't no idea what story
was talking about because I was like, when I think about the
biggest Stories, the times published, in the last few
years, it none of them are suitcase stories.
They're all like a suitcase startup.
It's like secret drone program. It's like this incredible.
Look, we just did inside the military.
It's a lot of foreign news. I'm sure he hasn't read.
It is, you know, stories about what was going on at the justice
department in the last days of the, you know, before January 6
like these are really important story is that one of the
reporters really tweeted out and yet they had a lot of impact
into the impact. In d.c. is measured by, you
know, does it impact an election doesn't impact actions by
Congress and rather than Twitter this is something I really find
super complicated for me. Because I don't watch TV or
engage with it. It is cable television.
That is like, the Twitter of decent.
So like, if reporters are on cable television, CNN, MSNBC
Fox, that is where like, and that's the conversation that
happens after the story comes out, right?
Yes. That's where all the influences
measured. It's not really Twitter as much.
And I wonder if it's just because like, you know, Chuck
Grassley was born before the invention of the chocolate chip
cookie. So, he might not know use like
Twitter, but he definitely knows how to like, sit, still and
watch TV, something like right on.
Sure, he used to be, if you remember that time, it's whoever
it is. I, It's gotta be him ever his
one about like, assume dear dead and all of that.
The Chuck Grassley Twitter feed is actually incredible, but but,
but II hear your general take. Yeah.
That's, that's the for like his hands.
That's when his hands were still operational.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I guess within business and
Tech business, but Tech is totally interesting because,
like, I'm sure that suitcase story was all over Twitter.
Like even though it wasn't on the front page of the New York
Times, That's probably not the front page of the journal are
pretty much anywhere else on Twitter.
I bet the suitcase story was a huge deal.
I mean, tying it to my sort of experience on Twitter and just
sort of Twitter. Generally in the point you're
making I mean Twitter is just like a psychological war on the
participants to convince them that the things that they're
experiencing on Twitter, really matter.
Right. Even some of the otherwise, why
are you on Twitter at? All right, all right, you see
past the veil there? It's all very sad and pathetic,
you know? Oh, the left is you were like,
cancel culture are isn't real. We're just sort of like, I don't
know, just stop reading Twitter. And like, if this problem goes
away, when you're not reading Twitter, then you didn't get
cancelled. You know what I mean?
They're just agree with that. There's just like stop looking
at the people yelling at. You don't respond to them, turn
off the app and like if the problem is gone, then it wasn't
a problem. You know, like are you think
it's just Twitter makes people who are on it more relevant so
they have an incentive to believe that it's like around
and I'll try and so, exactly. So everyone is just Playing this
game of, like, what happens here is the real, you know, Global
discourse when, when clearly normies aren't reading it, the
president's not really reading it.
You know, I think the Biden White House sort of indicated
that they see it as a way to manipulate journalists mostly
yeah, the reads it journalists and their editors.
And so I think if we could get our editors off of Twitter and
never look at it again, that would be the most extraordinary
thing, that, that would be the real meaning of Christmas.
Yeah. But then, what would what would
where would the discourse take place in a way that Porter's
could engage with it because okay, in d.c., you've got cable
television. Maybe you've got like a kind of
closed circuit of people who will, you know, read the tip
sheets and talk about the stories and the impact that it
had. I mean like Twitter is
incredibly useful for that. I mean if yes it inflates,
stupid stories, you know like it inflates in important something
like that. This fucking away story which
apparently did a real. Real mind spark on the VC
investing Community. Yeah.
I mean I own two pieces of away luggage and I loved it.
I had no idea. There's anything With a company
and I still don't know. Because, you know what?
I didn't do, read the story. I just didn't give enough of a
shit. I was like, you know what,
there's a huge War happening in Europe and I'm going to take
that time to read an update on what's going on in Ukraine, am
I? And I was like, okay, be as a
baby, a side point, to all of this, I've been reflecting on
the eat it. You probably listen to a Katie
but we talk to Antonio Garcia Martinez last week just like
interesting who I thought is a smart.
Got tweet the episode dude. Like come on.
Well I don't see our episode 7 Twitter anyway.
Could you know he kind of That is what it is, but you know,
that was really like bringing him on and I'm glad he came and
I do think he is a smart guy who's done the reading, but it
was really our best attempt to get someone who speaks to that
point of view. The, like, anti-tech point of
view to come engage with us anti-media point, anti-media.
Sorry. Sorry, anti-media point of view.
And I really bent over backwards.
I thought during the episode to be as agreeable to him and see
his points of view as much as possible.
And the more I think about that episode, The more hardened, I To
the media perspective. And the fact that these guys are
just, it's just weird, there's no way.
We're gonna be able to bridge that Gap and I'm sorry, they're
a bunch of fucking babies, right?
As if you, if you wanna talk about hard coverage and we're
like most of the hard covered that comes from the media.
It is not go towards the fuckin oh a CEO.
It is not go towards, you know VCS for you.
A nice person is the reason why the issue is likes you.
No slack employees being upset if the board wanted to hold on.
They absolutely could have held on to that those people.
I have no, We're like the most aggressive anti-tech anti-tech
in quotes coverage has been and last couple years it's been
towards Facebook. It's been towards maybe Google.
It's been towards face. I spoke.
Yeah. Yeah and like it's like they're
still engaging with the media. There vample comes apartments
that are doing that. I mean they work to influence
the stories that they can have their point of view out there.
They don't just basically like you know, take their ball and
walk home because they're upset that a couple of mean stories
were written about them and like you This in d.c. probably
exponentially more intensely. That the meteorites really means
story is about Congress people or whatever the White House or
any. Right.
Your brother still did not have strong responses.
I was literally like begging him like make your strongest
argument please like let's not to shit on a guess but I mean
Stamos I think was so clear. I'd, you know, Alex Stamos, the
former Chief security officer who said they Ceylon bubble is
going to pop. And I He he's being Vindicated
by the day. Like thank God, we got that
episode. I mean, all that Twitter poll,
right? Sort of the cultural Elan bubble
was gonna get a pop and everybody supporting him is
going to look like a fool and start pretending like they never
did thankfully, you know, Andreessen Horowitz since the
Quake. I check.
So we'll be home after them to pretend like they never did.
And all in is been all in on Elon Musk, but yeah, I Things
are turning fast and to some degree, I mean, maybe this is a
good time to Pivot the show because the media is winning and
text, you know, all the tech made up bullshit, Ori those
valuations are collapsing, Bitcoin, Tesla like that stuff
is falling. In reality, is coming back, it's
great. I don't necessarily winning or
losing And I think that's totally fine and it's not like
Tech will go away like walnuts didn't go away you know like
government wanted to go away even though reverent is trying
to dismantle itself as quickly as possible like government
still here we still have elections even though you know a
lots happened to make people cynical about government so yeah
it's not like text gonna go away just because people are like
Elon Musk might not be a god. Well it's sort of like elections
where you know before Anna They're all these crazy
narratives and then elections, ideally sort of create some
consensus around what the true narrative is based on the actual
performance of the politicians, similarly, in business, right?
Let's darken the Red Wave, it's hard.
It's hard for everyone to agree at what point the stock market
is rational, you know what I mean?
So, when the stock market is saying, Tesla's, worth the
entire Auto industry, the media class, and sort of the Skeptics
are in a weird place to deny that when You know, the stock
market's are version of Elections.
The Elan bubble is it's also just entirely under his control.
I think there was a lot that, I mean, people have been posting
all these charts showing like since he bought Twitter Tesla's,
stock has, you know, Fallen, whatever percentage.
You know. Insane amount.
He's probably, I don't think, as the time of recording is not the
richest person in the world. Oh he was, he hasn't been for a
couple for a little while but I mean it's collapsing, it's down.
Year-to-date Tesla's down, 69%. He must love that.
I just think, like, There's no winning when talking to the
people that are fully on diehards because they're going
to say in the same way that people that you know, defended
Trump throughout the entirety of his disastrous presidency.
Saying you look what he's doing for the country, he's willing to
sacrifice his net worth, and all of his wealth in order to build
this country. Back up, the Elan Defenders are
saying, well, you know, the fact that he's lost so much money or,
you know, personal wealth as he's taken on this.
This whole Twitter Quest is an example of like I'm fighting for
free speech, so it's not been at the Box, actually.
The lock-in is just such a powerful force.
Once some, once you have a theory of the world that
revolves around someone, it's very hard.
Yeah, to Pivot. Anyway, I want to change unless
you really have something to say on this always.
Here's just the last thing I would say on just that the AGM,
that groups vision of media. And, you know, I don't he wasn't
necessarily endorsing himself, but he was basically saying some
people would say that the you know, the best outcome would be
that the New York Times and all mainstream media just like Burns
to the ground. And none of that stuff.
And it seemed very violent. Like he, I mean, he was like,
Nuke the media? I think you killed.
Yeah, yeah, it was an editor. Like it was, it was colorful
language. I know, I'm not one of those
reporters that actually thinks were like under attack and like,
this is a dangerous job, really? No, no, I mean, I understand
people they're definitely a who I think if the rules were
eviscerated would kill the media like, whatever, that's a whole
other conversation. But I just wanted to say like
they don't really have a proposition for Or anything like
a realistic proposition for anything, that would replace it
and I watched she said the other day, the ultimate Normie movie.
I haven't seen now, it's not very good.
But the one thing I will say to it is that I think it does a
good job of explaining or at least pointing out the role that
the media plays when every other institution fails because in the
case of Harvey Weinstein, the law didn't do anything.
Obviously right, there were people that press charges and
they basically drop them the industry.
Do anything he wasn't blackballed.
There is basically no recourse for anybody that had been raped
or assaulted or harassed by him other than to go to the media
and right idea acted as its supposed to, which is like some
sort of force pushing against Power in order to rectify the
situation. I don't think it's the ultimate
solution like the media writing the story does, it's all in the
media cannot be expected to get every Harvey.
Once that's what I've been losing, that's what I was losing
about it on Twitter with the leftist and what I was losing.
Fighting with a GM about like you can't.
The media is not the only institution.
You know what I mean? It's meant to sort of be be a
self. It's one key stream.
Yeah it's one piece of many and in the case of Harvey Weinstein,
it was the only functional one and it led towards him being
literally put in prison for the things that the, you know, the
law was not able to do prior to that fight.
And like, I don't think these guys, you know, I don't want to
put a GM is like the face of it. But the people, the biology is
whoever who think that the New York Times and all these
Publications should be burnt to the ground.
They haven't actually Will answer to how to deal with
someone like him, right? They just don't because every
other institution that existed failed, and if they think the
New York Times shouldn't be there than Harvey Weinstein,
would arguably still be out making movies and attacking
women. Well, this is why I keep saying
that the right needs to produce actual reporting fact-finding.
Like, none of like a GM, just launched a podcast, you know,
Jason on all in is not claiming to be a journalist.
Like none of these people are committing themselves to the
moral sort of obligations of Journalism where oh, I might
actually do some real reporting that would help Society.
In some way, look at the Active starting is like the act of
reporting itself is treachery, right?
Like all you want is like an unfiltered point of view coming
from the person that has their one perspective on it.
And I also want to add to this and I'm sorry, I didn't bring it
up in that episode. The example of going direct was
very clear and its Effectiveness during the SPF situation when
Sequoia wrote their own article about him.
So, the journalism that came to Lee from the investor, clearly
isn't very good. And should they have far more
access information than any of us, you know, right.
And they wrote the glowing bullshit piece that they
apparently want us to be writing all the time.
They want to be reading these kid-glove pieces, and the other
thing I was going to say is that Harvey Weinstein is a, he was a
huge donor, the Democratic party and the New York Times and every
other public record of and I had no problem writing me and
stories about him. The idea that like we are able
to logically beholdin to Democrats because they donate to
I'm tired of media criticism. All right.
I know we get a lot of reporters on here but my goal.
Goal in 2023 is just not take media criticism.
So personally not really gets just just stop letting them
work. The refs just like media is, I
think on a good footing, there's plenty of media criticism
already and just to get back to sort of scrutinizing, the
subjects and like move on from the bullshit of of being worked
having the refs worked. I came into this podcast really
trying to be not this episode but like generally dead cat
trying to be as open to the other point of view as possible
and not. In the media, latest and and
trying to criticize the media as a way to better understand the
complaints against us. And after having conversations
with people, in the decide, I am more hardened to the media side
than I was going into it. And I didn't expect that and I
don't know these people need to fucking grow up, you know, it's
America. And I mean the last thing just
while we're deconstructing the AGM thing is that he seemed to
be mourning, the loss of sort of advertising Based shared media
that everyone sort of understood together while also sort of
rooting for this opinionated sort of sub Sac journalism.
I honestly it wasn't clear, which world he was rooting for
ya. So, like, it's a strange thing
to like, asked the media to re-embrace an advertising model,
that was killed by the tech industry, essentially, or at
least made like much much, much less lucrative, and about
blaming the tech industry, like it was evil that they did that.
I think advertising is problematic for that exact
reason. Like it doesn't have morals.
It just goes towards audience and I also thought, well, I
thought it was super bizarre that he wouldn't say whether he
was a Republican or not like oh, I didn't if it felt very hard,
like I almost wanted to have a survey done before he came on.
Like what are your profess to use?
Because there's some of the Republican or not is such a
loaded question. That's the most black and white
thing there is like if you can't decide which party your well
maybe, A few people want to associate with me, she like
you're fine. You know, saying you're a
Democrat. Iran has die-hard Democrat, but
a lot of people that may even agree with you in a lot of
politics and policies. Wouldn't call themselves a
Democrat. Like, I think that's a hard
question, ask people, they're wimps, you know, they don't
admit that there's a bifurcated choice.
They have to choose one and that choosing shows how they stack up
the values of the two parties. Anyway, that's a boring.
We don't need to sorry Katie. We were, we were, I was just
saying that I thought she said was not a very good movie, but
it did kind of Reaffirm my biggest that Katie was not on
the podcast for that part of it. So she's that's why she didn't
have you. But I went I was actually saying
that, you know, she said, was not a great movie,
unfortunately, my personal life having gone up in Flames.
I haven't had the chance to watch as much TV and film as I'd
like, but when I go into a catatonic state of I'm
overwhelmed, I'm actually have a really good long list of things
to watch from my room and the insane asylum.
So I'll put she said at the in the middle it sounds like yeah I
wouldn't I wouldn't go right to she said but I check out our
check out our highly recommend things about.
I want to see it. Yeah I watch it.
Lets I would I would fight my boss has to come back on to this
podcast of a conversation about the ending of tar.
Okay there's a lot there's a lot going on there.
Good episode, sorry I came back in and I heard are Say something
about both Democrats and Republicans.
Yeah we're right where we started reflecting last week's
episode a little bit just sort of how we finally face.
You know some iterate. Some real version of the media
critique without imagining ourselves and we were
underwhelmed. I think that's the people that
want to burn India media institutions to the ground.
Turns out, they don't really have an alternative.
So, yeah, I mean, I think that we would do such a good job
critiquing the media except We'll all get well Tom and I
think we'd be happy to give that searing critique.
It's just, you know, Tom just starting his new job so he
really can't get into it. I never keep mine for the
healthcare but so Tom. I mean these are our last
episode we we had one big bucket.
I mean, which was you've come away from this podcast sort of
you've sort of worked through the media criticism and you
believe in media sort of at the end of the day I came as more of
a sort of bullshit haterade on the other side.
Yeah. And Millennia we cannot believe
in media. Like you don't want news, right?
I don't want to that like if there's a fire strike if that's
what's the alternative. Yeah.
Like okay. So here here's an earthquake
that takes out. Like all of, you know, Oregon
and Washington and Northern California.
Do we not want receiving some journalism, geologists should
all start their own independent Stacks, right?
And you should if, you know, as a reader, not shooting, do we
not want to? Know what I mean?
Okay, there's that stupid. Do we not want to know the facts
there? If there is anyway?
Let me Stitch holder is describing here, that's not the
media that's news. The media is when they write an
article about the founder of away, that's, that's the media.
And that's what needs to be breaking ground.
Well, I really love news and like I said, as the owner of two
pieces of way, luggage, I have, I'm very happy with them.
I don't else to say, yeah, so what went wrong?
What are your other big conclusions?
Or what else have we sort of work through throughout the
show? Yeah, this is like the last
song. Did you guys see?
Walk Hard? Never Walk Hard.
The Dewey Cox Story? Oh yeah, of Yahtzee, Riley.
One of my favorite movies but at the end of the movie, he has to
like sing a song at an award show to like some of everything
he's learned in his life. Yeah.
But anyway, what else have I learned through the process of
this show. Well, I've liked our episodes,
who's the VC that came out at the at the outset of the bubble
bursting. A Rick and Rick heintzman.
Yeah, Rick heintzman, I really liked that episode.
That was a lot of fun. It was fun to hear.
Eric asking the question. What is the opposite of
quantitative easing? Whose name for it?
They're lightning tightening. Yeah, it was a real, like late
Millennial question that we sewed is sort of what I see some
of the future. I mean, it was more businesses
and more sort of financial To. Yeah I think we're going to
enter a very interesting period for Tech reporters and just the
tech industry in general of not being fueled by low, interest
rates, and this unending supply of capital that has created a
bunch of interest in company, a bunch of fraudulent companies.
A bunch of celebrities, probably shouldn't have been celebrities.
Yeah, we're on the fence about the suitcase company.
Is it, you know, we don't know what's going to happen with
Lonely Hearts. Yeah, it is certainly the
question of our time though, but yeah.
I'm I think we're in for a very new era of reporting and even
just talking about these tech companies and we have to ask
very new questions about what their fundamentals are, what
their values are. And I don't mean values, like
cultural values, but, you know, like, can they make it?
Like me, is, this is this thing worth investing thing.
Yeah, yeah. I think that's going to be a lot
of fun, frankly, just because it's so new.
It's just something we haven't had a chance to do, and we've
talked a lot about sort of Sam Venkman freed over the Codes and
also just, you know, the sort of, I don't know the tragic
founder, you know, we I feel like we obsessed over, we had
the Elizabeth Holmes trial for a while.
Our first episode was Parker Conrad.
Whose company zenefits? Imploded.
I don't know. What's your what's your walk
away here on the, on the founder?
Tragic, Founders. I think the media is very Adept,
at building up and taking down characters.
It's one of the best things we do.
Um, we love someone on the rise, we love someone who kind of
breaks the mold and in each of the cases here, it's that was a
very smart way in which they position their, you know,
character Elizabeth Holmes was, you know, Stanford Dropout, who
didn't know much about, you know, biology turns out that was
a bit of a red flag, but at the time it made her seem cool.
You know, obviously being a woman founder, you know, she
played that card very well and probably, unfortunately, the
women who built companies that actually did things.
Sandbank manfried. I mean we've talked endlessly
about that one. This is going to be an
incredible story going forward just because of how perfectly he
played us by being this like the face of crypto in an
approachable way. Not that long he burns super
hot. I mean I feel like he was in the
Zeitgeist what was like to you when I started throwing money
around politics right now? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. But also, you know, he was like,
I'm Pro regulation which seemed real kind of counterintuitive to
a lot of You know you know the general trend of me is so yeah I
guess there's not much to say they're like PE live by the
sword die by the sword with with a lot of is interesting to like
I think there is a bigger question about the idea of a
profile like you know we read profiles or it celebrity
profiles where your business profiles for your profiles of
politicians. And I think that it's it's
always hard and it's one of the reasons why I would rather do an
investigative piece then I'm profile because I think profiles
are hard. Order.
Because I think it's more difficult to try to present
somebody's life in the context of what's happening in the
bigger world and actually give the reader something that it
feels true. You know, when you read a
profile of a celebrity of Brad Pitt or of you know, or if you
read a profile politician, do you feel like you're reading
something true? Do you feel like you're reading
something that gives you? I mean I guess it gives you a
couple of facts but yeah, field true.
Do you do you know the person after?
Yeah. If you don't what do you really
know? Are you just learning something
about the way we're pouring? I mean, the real social showed
into a human and so like, those are hard is he?
I mean, you could write 3 profiles with the same set of
facts and have very different Slants, I think, absolutely.
And that's and that's what a lot of.
You know. The tech people do hate about
media that it's sort of, if the mood about, you know, Brad Pitt
is really - right now. Those facts will have - slant or
sometimes it's really - but you get what who's that person?
Your is it like taffy? Some you know you get one whose
profile writers who's good at writing like sort of a positive
sounding profiling - calendar showing how like a celebrity
reflects on her own life and makes?
Yeah. Sure.
Which actually does feel true because it's like true.
Never know. Like really like but I know how
quite as good a better job. I'm so happy.
You brought her up because I'm just so yeah.
So she's now like a showrunner of the show that Based on the
book that she wrote called fleischmann's in trouble.
I love to cook. Yeah, which is, it's an
interesting show. I just watched the first episode
last night and I read an interview with her afterwards.
It it's a book about this New York.
Dr. A dog whistle who who gets divorced and his in the process
of his divorce. His wife just disappears for a
couple days and stuff with the kids and he kind of has this
like early forties sexual Revolution.
No, our sexual Awakening, where he's like hooking up with all
these people on Tinder. But I read this interview, View
with taffy. What's your last name, bro?
To Sir Ochsner back Nur. And she was talking about her,
you know, success writing all of these celebrity profiles.
And she wrote a really great piece about goop and Gwyneth
Paltrow and Bradley Cooper and Britney Spears and people like
that. And she talked about how when
she started working on this show and had met with the actors on
the show who it's Claire Danes and Jesse Eisenberg.
And Seth Cohen from the o.c., a camera, the actor's name, excuse
me, cast, yeah. Yeah.
And she's like, I was sitting down Rodeo.
No. No.
Adam Brody. Yeah, yeah.
And she was like, I was sitting down to dinner with them and
talking to them as a regular human beings.
And I realized they were much more real with me now than they
ever were with me as a profile writer.
And I kind of was terrible at my job because I was presenting
these people as of this is who they really are.
But in fact, I didn't get anywhere with them.
They were just presenting a version of themselves to me.
That was appropriate for the media and that is kind of always
what she struggled with as a profile, right?
Her was like I am getting a version of them that they want
presented to me. But I'm supposed to be
interpreting a reality behind that that is going to be
appealing to readers. And there is this kind of
inherent artifice behind any kind of profile writing that I
didn't realize. Until I actually had a human
interaction with these people that wasn't transactional in
nature. And I didn't do like, I would
basically, I was bad at my job up to that point which I've even
though she is great and she and so, why would a business profile
be any different, right? All in there.
So controlled and you have like investors or you have boards or
you have Executive Suite saying we need a really good profile of
Mark Zuckerberg. Like I think back to those
profiles in the early days of Facebook.
Those were all to Tuffy's point in this interview, very
manufactured for specific reason, that reporter really
cannot cannot Pierce through its hard.
You can try. So now that Sam, Venkman feeds
company has collapsed, it's actually much easier to write
about because the facts on the ground it's Really hard to get
three different versions of a story out of the facts, right?
Like it's there's only kind of really one one or two versions.
Now it's, and yeah, but they're, it's much clearer now that we
have, for example, the statements from the CEO, the
accounting, the CEO is doing the indictments by the federal
government looking at a totally different set of facts.
That's not about house and bacon Freitas presenting himself or
who he surrounds himself with or what he eats for dinner but
they're just a literal these very nuts and bolts.
Things of where the money went and then you kind of only get
one story. It's funny that 15 minutes ago,
we were like, oh yeah, media is good, never mind.
And now we're back to actually media is a deeply broken
practice, you know, which it's not that it's broken, but that
it's more complicated and difficult to write certain kinds
of stories. And then I think that people
imagine or that even sometimes reporters imagined for
themselves, which is why we could do such a good job,
critiquing media. But again, we all got to keep
our jobs. Yeah.
It's also, you know, part of it is the unknowability of people
and the expectation that any person, especially in a
transactional nature, could figure out what makes someone
tick or what Corps moment in their history.
LED them to be this person that, you know, made them incredibly
successful, incredibly famous great.
If you, you know, if we wrote a profile of Eric today about his
trauma, like it would be a very specific version of Eric, you'd
be defending himself, abla would You get to know the real like
who he is from that story. Like, well interviewing the
person is almost. Yeah, the real me is.
Everything else is fake? That's true actually.
Yeah, I mean, if you want this, this could be maybe not our last
episode if you want to do one. Well we all just drop acid at
the beginning and get to the real core of who we are.
Logan, spend 518 our episode kyndra, kyndra, kyndra like Fox,
you know. Yeah, but again, we all need to
kind of keep our jobs. So I do well in the episode and
this has been an idea that sort of been bounced around my head.
Just the sense, you know, we live in like this fog.
Like, there's so many facts in the world that we don't know,
especially in business, there's just so much this undisclosed.
So, we have that problem, which I think is obvious and easy to
agree to on, but I think another problem, the creates this
narrative mess right now with sort of And the anti-media is
just like there isn't a lot of consensus on shared stories and
shared values, you know, like I think part of the problem is
like, okay with SBF. It's fairly easy because
everybody agrees like, fraud theft, they're bad, but I think
like going back to this sort of founder narrative stories.
I think it's a lot less clear you know like Parker Conrad.
Our first guest it's like his sins seems small.
He's exciting he's going for it again.
Then like how to spin those stories and, like, where our
values are in terms of, I don't know, failure and sort of Boss
employee relationships, like, all those things we don't have
shared values, so it's very hard to have shared stories.
Well, I also think and this actually came out of my
reflecting on. She said a mediocre movie, but
an interesting topic to think about and a great story, which
Tom was saying earlier. Yeah, that I think the media is
very Writing stories in which there's clear criminal
misconduct like Harvey Weinstein was the best examples backs
being and you can't really move those facts around and tell
them. Yeah, I continue.
Yeah, hurry went skiing like that whole period that like,
that whole story was a great one of the best examples of
accountability journalism, it just basically every other
system failed, but the media was able to kind of point out that,
you know, there's in controversial Oreo.
You know what I'm saying? Like, unassailable facts that he
broke the law and he He damaged all these people and I think
that's why that story was held on.
We agreed that the actions that didn't necessarily break the law
were immoral and wrong to. Right.
Yeah I think the gray area ones where I think the media really
finds itself in a lot of trouble and where you end up kind of
coming to conclusions that may be unfair to some of the
subjects in it because it really can go both ways.
But there's such a need to come up with some sort of conclusion
or final analysis on what happened that certain people
just get thrown under the bus even if what they did is
debatable. Still and I think that's been
the problem with a lot of these kind of corporate culture
stories, not to bring any way because I actually like Jason
Cole gets a lot. So but I mean it seemed to me
that that was his worry and fear and anxiety around this suitcase
story was a like, the suitcases were being used in ways that
were like much to put on a Suitcase.
Yeah, I really don't know what the story was about.
Do you. Chemical burns because the
lithium battery exploded on the would actually be like a pretty
straightforward, but then they don't agree on what the like
accountability, for example, in the Harvey Weinstein thing.
The accountability is still with the prosecutors, right?
Jodi. And Megan didn't then go to law
school, right? Past the bar become State
prosecutors and take him in front of a jury.
Like the accountability is still outside of the media
organization. I think is actual solution
exists outside of the media. Yeah like laws that were hard
times in different stages of rape, by the way, right?
Let me get a couple times like in multiple did not do that.
Been convicted if the jury had not found him guilty, that also
would not have been the times. And so, I think that because of
a lot of things that have happened culturally in the last,
you know, let's see, 86 years, certain president there's,
there's, there's been a wish and desire for the media to not only
be able to surface the stories that prompt the questions and
prompt the difficulties arise. But you are taller than take
people and put them in jail, and that is not.
Literally never going to happen nor should it.
And again, if the jury had not convicted Harvey that would not
have been the times either, this, slowness of the legal
system in a Twitter culture, I do think is one of the
underestimated issues of our time.
Like we move fast, the business world moves extremely fast, but
government moves too slow. And obviously, there's a level
of sort of thoughtfulness and due process that you want with.
Mint but man it is way too slow, definitely broken.
Like I think it's a core problem.
I mean from the regulatory front that the SEC just Waits out.
You know, crypto basically lets it blow up before they punish
anybody. I think this Harvey whines any
of this stuff. The government is not delivering
as sort of a, its cultural piece, right?
It's going, the Trump any sort of trump intervention.
The idea that we would have Trump prosecution's now when
it's basically irrelevant because not In.
But not when it actually mattered is just a total
dereliction of Duty. So I think this point most
careless Duty by whom by anyone who could reasonably have
charged or decides to charge down the road if they didn't
charge when it actually mattered.
I just think his delusions, they can find evidence of somebody
committing a crime, they should charge, no matter, they have to
have the case, but they should turn it whether or not impact
somebody's ability to be President, like, I still think
it's worthy to charge it. Like, for example, you could say
no, you could say, what's the point of charging Harvey
Weinstein? Now that he's decrepit old man
with a walker when he can trust anyone anymore, right?
Right. They should have charged him
when he was raping but it right. And no, I think it's good that
much better better late than never.
But I'm saying it would be well, I think the president either
border crying. It's hard to put the, you know,
the issues around charging the president with the crime which
is never actually been done and may not even be legal.
No, we have charged people with rape and they have been
convicted before in history. Right, right.
But like the fact that it took this long to get, even the
stories out there publicly about Harvey Weinstein, was a failure
in the system up to this point. And and I was saying, like the
long-term solution to I'm sorry killing took forever do, I mean
there are lots of these that Kelly take forever.
And so I think something so I guess it's not just me Jeffrey
Epstein, you know, like they couldn't keep him alive, you
know, they just well, I mean narrative, the there's to your
point earlier time the narrative around Tech is going to get Much
days here because there's going to be a downturn and the
industry. I think that that is I think
that also we have in acknowledging that we have to
acknowledge how much of especially the startup industry
really needs has been fueled by the media and partnered with the
media. So if that goes away, you know
what gets Built My Hope Is that just better companies, get
built. But right, so I just wrote a
piece about like this bubble. Seeing and one of my points in
the piece was just, I don't, this isn't like 2008 where I
think there's some like huge societal Stakes like let the
bubble burst let some people lose some money like I don't
know. Is it really going to make Tech
more of a villain? Like in some ways it's gonna
push the other companies. You can write.
I think you need to be closer to reality.
Like honestly, I think we've sort of, I mean, maybe I'm
naive, no play a different way but we've sort of seen a lot of
the villainy People sort of hucksters selling and of teas
and shit. And now that's being corrected.
And so, those people lose some money, we get back to reality
and I don't know that it's going to actually turn Society more
against Tech because I think Tech will see more level-headed.
Like, I don't do you disagree, do we need villains and heroes?
I mean like, that's okay. Yeah.
Just building, you know if be back to profile writing it is an
easier way to kind of organize the world.
It is a way easier way, but it might not be the best.
Sway. But this just feels pretty
disconnected from, I don't know. Well, I also think a lot of tech
Founders grew to be very uncomfortable with the amount of
attention that they were getting.
I mean, when San Francisco when you guys both lived here in San
Francisco, for a brief period was like the cultural.
And, you know, economic Hub of the country and there were, you
know, which is a strange place that someone growing up in the
Bay Area for the city to be. I think it ended up reflecting
very poorly as it would on almost any tea and group of
people the people really couldn't handle it anyway.
I mean, like Manhattan, during the height of like the Wall
Street like boom. In 2007 Manhattan was like
grotesque to be in most parts of it.
Like the sort of bottle service culture of it all and like women
with not much clothes, like addresses bringing out like
champagne with sparklers and all of it was just like sort of like
Nikki. Yeah, yeah, San Francisco.
Went through a different version of that.
For, for that, it was just more like hiring task rabbit stew,
weight loss, Provisions for something.
Into fights at like the soccer field in the mission.
But yeah, I so we're allowed to show.
Well, that's always the funniest thing about tech, right?
Is that, like, you know, another thing, I can bring it for the
millionth time in this podcast, when you read through Barbarians
at the gate and they talk about, you know, that that 80s, you
know, Bond culture, at least the people that were running, those,
you know, giant private Equity Funds and companies, at least
they, kind of knew what to do with the money.
You know, they would kind of look like they were having fun
with it. They would have like Fleet Of
private jets and buying you know watches for Frank Gifford and
weird shit like that but at Tech it was just like what do you
exactly spending the money on? It's just that's why they moved
to Miami in the end you know. Right.
Right where they could like be where they could have you know
by some high-end art go to some clubs and and you know the
Google co-founders are spending on islands that really see you
know what? Yeah yeah but I wonder you know
if Entering a more rational period of tech where the
valuations will be compressed of multiples of be compressed and
the kind of stories that have been written for the last couple
of years. Won't mean, as much anymore.
What does that say? More broadly about like the
business world because Tech was kind of this miraculous engine
of American exceptionalism, over the last couple of years and it
was shown as like this is how we're still out on the frontier
compared to the rest of the world.
And if tech is just going to be another industry with, you know,
rational You ations and still done like.com.
This is not an existential question.
The stanshall, I'm just, no, I know you're not but I'm just
that it is about crypto, but it's certainly not about tech
and Tech is still going to be the dominant.
Part of it, I think it'll be hard but instead it dominant
part of business. It's in every part of every
industry right now and I don't like companies are still silica
like VC originated. You know that funding model
going going big. There's still a ton of VC money
like I think that process is an ending.
So we have that story and then we still have.
I mean the content, moderation and sort of how we have these
conversations online is still very much alive.
Yeah. They're all going to be
Interesting important or not. All going to be important,
companies are getting plenty of important companies but they're
not going to be exceptional. I don't think they're going to
exist in a class outside of the rest of the business world.
I think a generative AI, the rise of the I/O, happy New Year,
Steph the cool Tom wrote of his last parting shot, an Insider
was to to shit on whether or just to cast, what to cast doubt
on whether generative is a, I would be helpful in the company.
What would replace Google? So I'm happy to talk about that
for a second here because New York Times literally said the
opposite We, and that's what know, Nico wrote a really great
story for the times. That was talking about how good
I know I dragged mom. Can we like, just a Twitter plan
to the audience at the reason why I don't know anything that's
fucking going on, is because like, everybody, I love is sick
and dying, and I've been really busy, and it's not because I
stopped reading the New York Times.
It's not because I hate media. It's literally just because when
I'm not doing this podcast or doing my day job, I'm like,
literally just keeping track of all the people who could die.
Anyway, keep going part of why we're doing this.
I guess is like 80 be distracted for an hour.
That's the very good chance. That's the greatest hits, but we
could give with this podcast, take people away.
Only way Tom and I know how to be good friends.
Hey, come on our podcast. That's a good way to maintain
any friendship, it's all just podcast related, interact juice
for us. All right, just just create
content, that can be distributed.
So generative AI, we, you know, obviously what that is.
And so there's been this kind of Meme and argument among the tech
report In class, especially that all of these Technologies
specifically chat GPT, which maybe you've seen.
It's kind of like a chatbot that's very smart and can
produce very interesting, you know, intelligent human sounding
responses to questions. There's this argument that it's
going to replace Google and that Google is fucked because the new
way of searching and getting answers to things is going to be
interacting with open a eyes, you know, G PT 3 or GPT for
which it would come out next year or chat GPT and New York
Times. Nico Grant who's a really good
reporter. Wrote a piece that talks.
About how Google is declaring it, you know, Red Alert or code
red internally because they feel that they have kind of missed
the boat to this point on. You know what, generative Ai and
chat Bots will do for the future of search and it came out a
couple of days. After I wrote a story that
basically said chat is not anywhere close to replacing
search, it has huge flaws in it. It's a lying expense.
What's wrong all the time? It's very cocky.
Like it gives you a very confident sounding answer this
one minor or be attacked. You know, it sounds like to
bring up this example now so yesterday because I do love
talking about it to people and because it is a really fun demo
to bring to people. Everyone's you do it at
Christmas, you know, wants chat GPT and show him how good it is
at respond to your questions but I wanted to show Rosa recently
how good it is at writing essays.
And so I was like, oh I should have it write an essay like in
doing interpreting, the symbolism of some Short story
and I was like, I remember when I was in college, I read the
short story that was something about a girlfriend talking about
her. Boyfriend was evolving reverse,
having like reverse experiencing reverse Evolution and I couldn't
remember the name of the short story, but I remember that that
was like an opening line. Like my boyfriend is evolving in
Reverse normally. You would just go to Google and
type that in and come up with the name of it.
But like, no, let me ask chap GPT.
So I asked you have to be T. What's the name of the short
story where the narrator says her, boyfriend is evolving in
reverse and they're like the story that you were talking.
Seeing about is called the reverse evolution of Chuck,
Palahniuk in which the narrator it talks about her boyfriend,
Chuck Palahniuk is evolving in Reverse.
I'm like, what the fuck? What are you talking about?
I've never heard of the short stories, then I go to Google and
I type in the evolution of Chuck, Palahniuk in Quotes.
No responses. Yeah.
And then I go to Google and type in the same question that I gave
chat GPT which is like, what's the name of the short story?
And they're like, oh, it's the remember or by a me Bender,
which is like this anthologized short story that was written in
like the late 90s. So immediately it Me the correct
answer to it the Wikipedia page to that short story.
Where is chibi T. Literally just fucking made it
up, but it didn't go anywhere. Came up here, you seem to me
like a Chuck Palahniuk fan, just just like looking at you.
So maybe you knew me better than I did.
This story is very much like my gas car does goes very fast like
why why I need an electric car that level driving directly into
a wall recharged every, you know, like, yeah, it's a newer.
Knology. You know, they're working on it.
One of the most interesting things about this era and
writing about chat GPT and open AI is their willingness to
release a product. That is clearly not streak,
ready, right? This thing is in no ways a
replacement or even potestas willing to do it with a car.
Yeah, well, this is something that's interesting with
self-driving, right? You know, like what happened,
really self-driving, any sir, well Tesla, hell, yes, it he'll
die but you know like the responsible companies have not.
Where's open a? I basically just and there's
been a lot of criticism. In the AI world for open a.i.?
Well, I think I mean opening, I, you know, use stable diffusion
as part, you know, there is there are other people who came
out ahead and then well it's gonna be out there.
We'll we'll do it. I mean, Google has seemingly
been very restrained. I mean, they write a lot more
cautious about their self driving cars are much more
cautious about whatever their Dolly competitor is.
I mean, you're you're about to be covering Microsoft, which is
very closely partnered with open a.i.
So I'm sure you'll be writing about this.
This fight with Google ton going for?
Yeah. And I think it's also something
that you out to Tom. Yeah.
My DMs are open.
That's the only thing I use Twitter foot.
Make clear to him that if you need to hang your scoops on him
getting permission from Wall Street Journal, editors to let
him come on the podcast, we like this cube is.
If Tom does another episode and then he can go to his editors
and be like, listen, I don't know.
I think he's for them. What about me here?
I don't want to position myself as the anti AI guy.
I think it's really interesting technology.
I do think the media is running into an issue, which is that it
is kind of suspicious that. At the same time that a lot of
VC Investments are going into AI.
You're seeing a lot of stories written by reporters saying this
is the future and this is replacing Google, which is
exactly argue this and this is exactly what DC's want to have
happen because then you are investing in a really valuable
company. My God, the next Google, how
great would that be? And so, first of all, it's a
funny counter to the idea that, you know, the media hates Tech,
right? Because we are hyping up a new
technology, we need to acknowledge that.
There's a relationship, right? Venture capital and the and I
think we need, right? But I also want to clear-eyed
about just how Humanity Works Humanity wants on you to talk
about. It's like we're bored of these
old themes. Like what's the new thing we can
like? All right, hash out like that's
good. I mean and it's fun to the sent,
the sense. We don't have a, it's good to
have a shared common. Station.
Like if anything, it would be more fun.
If more people could talk about the same things, you know, we
all have our different little media outlets and look at them,
you know, in different degrees of meta, and self, reflexivity
or whatever. But we're all talking about,
some interesting like that. So much of the Nostalgia for the
90s is that it was the last time that we all talk about the same
stuff. So even though not everybody
like monoculture, loved the show Friends.
We all just kind of watched it together and we didn't love
these things, but we did it together and so that's, you
know, I don't know if I'll ever have that again.
I Just watched a Lindsay Lohan Netflix movie we couldn't Point
Eric and I are never going to share that experience.
Anyway, the last thing on the AI side of things I will say is
that when you talk to these people and I expect to be
talking to a lot of, you know, the people that are working on
the front lines of building a high-tech.
They are extremely confident in their belief that this will
replace so many different kinds of jobs and not only that it
will do it, but it will do it in the next like, three or four
years and it's very compelling talking to them.
And I think a lot of Is fall into the Trap of listening to
them and assuming that, that is truth and it is certainly a
version of truth. But I encourage a lot of people
over the next couple of months, as this becomes probably the
biggest story in Tech to measure your enthusiasm for the people
that are talking to about it with the realities of what the
tech can't do. And I think Eric you were like
very outspoken in your belief that like self-driving was a
waste of time to write. Yeah.
When you were covering, it was something that was supposed to
be with us. Today.
I mean like yeah, right last year it was like 20 challenge.
14 2000 strategy was just like not right about it a lot and the
challenges there isn't much benefit to anyone to reporters
to just like I'm out on that story.
I mean you I get to if you have really good friends or willing
to brag about you, I guess you get to be self-indulgent but
it's even hard to convince people.
It's like always smart about not doing something, you know I mean
is it's hard to just like sit out the conversation and to just
like scold the Conversation to add more attention to it.
I'm just more bullish on generative AI to be clear
because I think the thresh, it doesn't need a be as good to be
useful. I think it's unclear.
I think we're probably going to be bad at predicting which jobs
get displaced but I think we also underestimate as Elites
just like how much most people aren't great at writing.
Don't feel comfortable writing and like you can use it like in
their daily life to be more literate you know or come off as
More literate. So I think it's gonna be pretty
powerful. Yeah, it has a place and I'm not
saying don't write about it or I guess I'm going to.
So everyone will call me a hypocrite when they see stories
that I've written about it. But I just think it's probably
would do reporters. Well to not jump to conclusions
that it's going to replace a trillion dollar company, right?
That's couple of years and I'm not saying that's what Nico
story did. But you know it's easy for Red
Alert or something right here. Yeah I think toad rat or
something. And you know, to be like fully
up front here. I was also chasing that story as
well and also heard that Google was concerned about it.
I also think, you know, companies can respond to
external stimuli as well when they see other people saying
shit employees were like what do we do?
When you start asking questions? Then leaders respond to what
their employees are a skandagupta companies big as
Google. I was spect.
If you structure it while you have one team that thinks one
way and one thing at the other and you just sort of like, I
don't know, both both pursue your strategies and then we'll
decide at the end. Yeah, but I will say I'm more
excited to see this whole era of AI Investments then I was about
crypto. Yeah I think it's way it's way
more meaningful for Marc Andreessen would say it's
because crypto is fundamentally like pro leftist pro sensors.
Sorry aai is pro left. Is pro censorship.
Whereas crypto was no fraud libertarian decentralisation,
you know, like the ideology of AI is sort of more aligned with
like we're not going to have to work in an ER like these.
Yeah, that people that it's fucking people.
I think that the AI story is fine.
One that's similar to self-driving and that there will
be a lot of interesting utility there, but it just won't be the
things that we predicted based on things that VC's told us
based on the narrative, they had to create in order to raise
money. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that could be like, the
one thing people can learn from not this show but, you know, the
kind of things that we talked about, we were all on the show,
was that think about the motivations that people have for
saying the things that they say, and that includes the media, if
they write you, You know, the motivations that we have for
writing a certain story reveals a lot about the incentive
structure of the companies we work for and also the sources
that we have and yeah, yeah, and that hopefully can help people
understand better the reasons they hate us.
If they do. Well, I think we all understand
the reasons why people are down on Eric right now, based on this
Twitter trauma because I said they should go fuck.
Yeah, I mean I think that, you know, I, you know, I didn't
conflict the Escalade Shin that was maybe my tactical I wasn't
trying to deescalate. This is this is my Eric are so
different as people. Well, yeah, that was funny too
because you saw yourself as like the scold during the Jason
calacanis show. And I was like, you're pretty
restrains during most of that stuff.
Yeah, I mean like for me, I have to be in my world.
I was being a real dick, okay. It was trying to fact-check him.
Someone really do that. Not worth it.
Not worth. It was funny.
It was funny to during the AGM episode when he was like, it
seems like we have this interesting trip to going here
of Left, Right? And Center.
Where like I'm right, where's the left?
And I'm like, no. I forgot to say this or the
episode, I have no political ideology here.
I just gravitate towards which argument is the most cynical so
yeah that's my ball around the place Su with that sit with that
for a while. Observation have no core I have
nothing. Well Merry Christmas that I mean
they that's exactly yeah yeah well I don't know.
I mean I hope everyone that's listening has enjoyed and it's
learned things over the last 18 months that we've done.
The show it will continue to exist in some form with Eric and
occasionally Katie. And hopefully with the same
name. I like dead cat.
I mean, I think that cat back from the grave is a perfectly
good name? Yeah, that's good.
Very nice. I might just call it dead cat
with their newcomer, really leaving the stakes here.
What you're getting with the show?
I do you think you can be a little confusing?
Like we we, you know it whenever you get New people a listeners.
They don't necessarily have the contacts and where if they live
if this is their first episode God help them you know the show
going forward. Look we didn't even introduce
Tom at all arkadia, doesn't matter because we're leaving.
Why introduce people closer to say I write like a newsletter.
I'm like, I don't know if they can't figure that out.
They're not going to make it through this episode.
You know. Well, you know we we can end on
this point because we did talk earlier in jest about, you know,
friendships and relationships. Being, you know, transactional
as funneled through a podcast. But the one thing that I enjoyed
more than anything with this show is I think we've talked
more, you know, person to person and we had probably since we all
lived in San Francisco together and you know, would hang out
over the weekends. Yeah, I'm I'm urges saccharin
Tom. Oh my God, Tom agree with you,
that has been very lovely. It has been very nice.
I'm sad that the Wall Street Journal has decided Friendship
breakup family, at least make it Rupert.
Murdock, Murdock told, you have to break up with your friend.
This is a gang initiation. Well, no, I, I don't know, I
don't know how to end on anything.
Maybe we can just record our own episodes like never get sort of
for ourselves and then one day, you know, well the unreleased
release the archives. Yeah.
Well, it was very good. Seeing you guys in 2022.
I'm hoping 2023 is a little better and that will see what
other in person soon. Be great.
I love you guys. Love you too.
All right.
He's having a meeting here.
All right. Bye.
I think that was very nice and a good.
Bye good.
Bye. Goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye.
Goodbye. Goodbye.
Goodbye, goodbye.
Goodbye.