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Welcome, welcome to dead cat. 
We have been Gravely betray. 

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This is the end of the ERA. 
This is a breaking news. 

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The podcast is imploding. 
There's the wheat. 

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There's a we in that stuff. 
Is we the audience? 

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We have. 
I committed a front against the 

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entire deck. 
Heck, yeah. 

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Yeah. 
Exactly. 

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The Diehard fans, the thousands 
of listeners. 

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You know, you it's merry 
Christmas everybody. 

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Your podcasts talking is filled 
with coal, you know, that 

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there's like a percentage of our
audience. 

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I don't know what percent may be
a minority that's just like he's

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fucking gone. 
Thank God this guy's out like I 

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was I was dragging ass on this 
show. 

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Yeah. 
So Tom is leaving for a 

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different startup? 
Yes gonna go join a little known

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publication called The Wall 
Street. 

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Yeah. 
After eight great years, a dead 

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cat, it's time to Happy Trails 
for me. 

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I got my LinkedIn post right 
here for my leaving. 

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Todd cat know, like Eric said, 
and as I've tweeted, I am 

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joining the Wall Street Journal 
and they have requested. 

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How do I say? 
They'll get here. 

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Bringing the kibosh down, you 
know. 

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They're they're a large Media 
company and so they want to make

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sure that Tom is not creating 
competing products and we know 

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that dead cat and the Wall 
Street journal's podcast 

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division are in it. 
In a heated battle. 

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For dominance. 
Yeah, yeah, this is a rival. 

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That's the key. 
I will just say that as I found 

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out in my early onboarding, to 
the Wall Street Journal, a lot 

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of Journal listeners to this 
show and so hey everybody out 

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there, I know through journaling
or listening to this to you. 

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No no I love my bosses and I 
love my new co-workers and Of 

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standards and practices and 
editorial discretion. 

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And, and look, I've we have said
on this show that the journal is

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probably the most reliable 
source for Tech news and they're

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judicious nasaw. 
Unfortunately is I wouldn't want

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to have to bear it myself 
personally, but I'm not it 

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exists. 
And the people have to be sort 

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of st. 
Like no opinion have a I gave up

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that life. 
Well, we're not good luck to 

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you. 
Tom, well you tell me though 

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because yeah this is just step 
one of two. 

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The second one is when Mike 
Bloomberg buys the journal 

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apparently and we have to figure
out how the melding of you know,

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Bloomberg and you know 
everything is you know, 

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everything is on the table. 
You can do whatever you want. 

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Melds with the more straight. 
I'm joking, right? 

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Isn't Bloomberg. 
Also like a strict. 

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Oh Bloomberg Bloomberg. 
All I remember is that everybody

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knew my life minute to minute? 
Because not only do you swipe in

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with your badge and swipe out. 
So know when you're done 

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building, they know when your 
keyboard is not Use, so it gets 

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pretty in today. 
Do you think he's been tracking 

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a Bloomberg? 
Does he just sit over here? 

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We get your backpack enough to 
Bloomberg. 

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They send you home to go. 
Get it. 

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It's like, you're like an 
elementary school student. 

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Yeah, they will all my boss like
Ida security guard. 

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Tell me this, this is going to 
the highest levels, you know, my

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badge failures. 
I remember when I got packages 

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sent to the office, which I've 
done at every place, I've worked

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even when I was a waitress, when
I got mail sent to the office 

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that I needed to. 
Pick up because I don't live in 

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a fancy doorman building. 
That was also a security matter 

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and that to have a real 
conversation about it, but 

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that's Bloomberg. 
None of us is worked at the Wall

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Street Journal. 
We don't know which foibles that

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they have, you'll have to, you 
have to let us know tells 

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through a pseudonym, I guess. 
But our very special guest Dom 

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totin that would be a good bit. 
We like have this, like, 

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Anonymous character that they 
can never sort of totally proved

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is you, it's like, it just 
sounds like yeah, I'm getting 

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worse. 
From someone who's appeared on 

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this show before. 
Yeah, I'd love for my first 

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introduction to the journal 
standard and practices to be is 

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me submitting content to a 
podcast under a pseudonym. 

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Which I'm talking about 
interior, you know, politics of 

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the company that I don't think 
it's strange that this show is 

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popular among reporters and 
people to Wall Street Journal. 

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And yet there been any whatever 
they're not Banning me. 

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They're asking me for a little 
bit of a timeout. 

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On board with the team. 
See you guys back here in a 

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couple of yes, taking back the 
podcast, you want to talk about 

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what the show is going to be 
like going forward so you can 

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back it to be able excited about
it. 

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All right it's all money is 
sense. 

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Going for none of this 
tomfoolery. 

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You know none of this tomfoolery
could have been the name of the 

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show. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah, well I don't know. 
I mean I think in January I'm 

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going to experiment with 
different configurations. 

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I mean Katie I'm a regular 
regular special guests can come 

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on, but I think I will 
experiment with format, you 

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know, I don't know. 
This is not a key part of the 

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show, we're gonna keep going. 
All of it. 

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I wasn't told by the way, I 
couldn't have an only fans so 

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that that maybe my outlet. 
Well you know the problem with 

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co-host is they cut in? 
You know, if it's a one-on-one 

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interview show I just I can I 
can be a more Kara Swisher, like

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figure and just sort of really 
get all my opinions out which 

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right now. 
I feel like I'm only getting 

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diapers. 
Are we talking the free flow of 

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newcomer a pin, right? 
That Zack made you a character 

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on Twitter for 20-25 minutes or 
so my God. 

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How do you know? 
I'm not on Twitter anymore. 

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Well, I got it, this fucking 
thing. 

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Brought me back to Twitter. 
It was like, you were Breeze was

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like a trauma for me, okay? 
So, you know, the New York Times

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broke this story about this 
congressman, who faked his 

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resume, right? 
Very, very very and then there 

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were some like, son, I don't 
know, George said liberal 

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leftist, I can't quite tell 
where their Parker Malloy fans, 

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I don't even know what that 
means. 

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Continue some account. 
So, so I just make the point. 

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They like it's ridiculous to 
criticize the outlet that scoop 

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It's the story for failing to 
scoop it earlier, and like the 

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last person you should criticize
are the actual people doing the 

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scooping and like any other 
institution in the world should 

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be blamed before them, and of 
course, defending the York Times

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is the one thing that everybody 
hates on Twitter left, right or 

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Center people are low. 
So we're defending the New York 

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Times in the Shell of Defending 
a Michael Barbaro tweet which I 

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think, oh my God, exponentially 
more. 

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Don't think those when other 
people are taking Ells. 

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So my Twitter and then and then 
of course you know me like 

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you've heard of suicide by cop. 
This is like suicide by Barbaro.

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So people are coming at me and 
I'm replying to every single one

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of them. 
You know, I'm just like are you 

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doing so? 
So all my followers are like 

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more aware of this and they ever
would have been because instead 

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of just getting all these random
replies, I'm like engaging with 

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everybody in like you went for a
boy, it's sort of telling people

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like fuck off. 
I said something like, you know,

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liberals, who are upset that 
like, I don't know the New York 

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Times isn't giving them scoops 
and what did I say about the 

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right? 
Anyway, I just don't ask me to 

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recline. 
I told the left and right to 

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both go fuck yourselves on 
Twitter and that year and then I

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was a little surprised. 
Why people were so angry at me. 

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You know what I mean? 
The responses are idiotic, I 

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mean, literally, you get people 
saying like, well, I enjoyed 

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this one. 
Somebody was like You don't have

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any friends and I replied to 
them if I didn't have my Downs, 

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wouldn't it be really mean of 
you to say that to me? 

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Like, I do. 
They're like drinking. 

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I thought, luckily, I was like 
you're a sad person. 

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If you were to say something 
like right there supposed to be 

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nice, you know, I don't know if 
you're carrying is supposed to 

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be part like isn't the point of 
having when you see p Buddha, 

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just dating space benefits for 
people that you want to extend 

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your compassion to people. 
You don't know. 

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Like I feel like that should 
translate. 

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I think you misheard your ass. 
Equitable like, interpersonal 

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Behavior. 
I think you misinterpreted what 

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it means to be a liberal today, 
but to me, the liberal tell you 

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that means testing for emotions.
It's just like well if you are 

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below a certain income bracket, 
then I suppose I should extend 

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some elements of empathy to you.
Oh my God. 

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Yeah and then I got some white 
side, some average white guy 

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with an opinion, you know? 
It's just like that is. 

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Oh, that's the name of your new 
podcast, maybe? 

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Yeah, right whatever. 
Me to do is lean into a race 

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politics. 
That's that's what the baltics 

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should be about, just sort of 
all you, come on. 

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Sure. 
You know, like they're like more

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of that. 
Well click on that as part of 

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the show's gonna say I guess 
that Tom and I will actually 

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never be guests again because I 
love to come back to. 

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Yeah, my new editor is at the 
journal and asked it reappear on

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the new race Focus dead cat, 
what it's all about. 

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It's like no, no, no. 
The format has changed a bit. 

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Since you guys were concerned at
thrown out. 

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All about like cranial shapes. 
Okay. 

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So Eric that was um yeah watch 
watch this space. 

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It sounds like, what's the scale
to close off? 

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Maybe this I literally had 
someone in my diems, by the way,

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saying that it looked like I was
about to go on Tucker Carlson 

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it's like I'm here jobbed by all
these leftist but they want to 

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dream up a world where I'm like 
suddenly on the most powerful 

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platform. 
You know, it's just like oh yeah

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you guys are all booing me. 
Constantly, but it's me, who's 

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about to oppress you all like, 
it's like this am at. 

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It's just like, total like story
crafting, you know? 

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They just I, it is insane. 
So, clearly, this is something 

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that's still very present for 
you. 

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And this radicalize me, you 
know, hey, hey, a professional. 

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Therapist might want to walk 
through with you a couple times 

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to say week, so we can all move 
on, but I also like Tom, right? 

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Bring it up and and I also So 
like the idea of Eric going over

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this with his therapist and 
everybody did but I was bragging

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about, I'm like I'm fighting 
with them. 

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Like fuck them - I can only 
imagine what your therapist 

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right. 
It was writing down her fucking 

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notepad. 
Yeah. 

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Well she was in the wreck lies. 
This is why I don't really use 

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Twitter so much. 
But hey, Gary. 

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You were like trying to wean 
yourself off of it, right? 

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It's like an artery really doing
the whole fight, on the web 

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browser, mobile web browser 
version of Twitter. 

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Like that's how like it's like 
everyone to a methadone clinic 

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and immediately bottom down. 
It's just now I know why your 

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therapist didn't say anything. 
And that first session because 

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she was just like we got it. 
There's we got a he has to get 

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to a place where he can start 
unpacking this on his own 

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before. 
I closely help him. 

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Let's see if we can try to make 
this into something useful for 

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the broader audience. 
Well, I was going to say So, 

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part of the year in review that 
we were planning was to think 

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about Twitter, I didn't realize 
that Eric had been engaging with

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it so, so ardently over the last
couple weeks. 

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Oh, so, when there clearly are 
experience might tell us 

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something about the direction of
new Twitter and you whom on 

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Twitter who? 
Well I guess what I sort of 

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gathered through this episode 
taking newcomer out of it, 

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specifically, is that it all it 
all kind of went through the 

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same cycle that Twitter outrage 
Cycles have gone You're over the

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past couple of years which is 
like, there's a character, 

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people pylon at some point. 
There's an article in like a 

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Gawker, you know, subsidiary or 
something. 

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That affects coffee people. 
Excuse me, I was mentioned, I'm 

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00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,100
a stack this Parker Malloy 
person. 

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It was behind a pay wall though.
I mean she was just using me as 

225
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like as if I was like a New York
Times Reporter when I wasn't, 

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but I think they called you like
a like a VC freak, or something 

227
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,500
like that. 
But, but anyway, that's what we 

228
00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:41,700
call Eric. 
I'm not sufficiently deferential

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and then the rest of the world. 
This is what drives me, 

230
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,200
literally, we had this podcast 
where were fighting with Antonio

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00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,500
Garcia Martinez and I'm like 
arguing for the left. 

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And then meanwhile before that's
published, I'm eating it from 

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the left. 
It's just like, man, you really 

234
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not. 
This is my self-righteous thing.

235
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You can say, but you can't be an
independent thinker anymore. 

236
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,000
You got to align with one side 
or the other otherwise people 

237
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,400
are just going to boo. 
Boo, okay. 

238
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But here's here's what I, here's
what I was thinking as as a 

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00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:13,300
cycle Through its, you know, 
stations like it all felt fairly

240
00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:16,000
deflated to me, you know? 
Like it was it was this thing 

241
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,600
that we've seen happened for the
last couple of years and it 

242
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sounds like the like the fries 
on that exist in these things. 

243
00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:25,000
It wasn't there anymore. 
Like I just feel like we're 

244
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going through the motions of it 
was like black people weren't 

245
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,500
really no one's interested in 
this anymore which is to me more

246
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than anything. 
The reason I, you know, taking 

247
00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:37,000
even Elan out of it, why? 
I'm just not I just don't expect

248
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Twitter to matter as much in the
future. 

249
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Feeling about the Elan of it all
people just don't, they're kind 

250
00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:45,500
of just done. 
It was running on fumes or it 

251
00:13:45,500 --> 00:13:47,800
was getting to that point. 
The one counter to that is my 

252
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,700
bizarre meltdown on Twitter. 
Definitely penetrated. 

253
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:54,800
Like my real life, like, I had 
people be like, what's going on 

254
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:59,300
like you, are you okay, you 
know, like so definitely normies

255
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,700
became aware of it, you know, 
and people who never interact 

256
00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:06,100
with my Tweets, we're like very,
very aware. 

257
00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:11,100
So I do think Twitter's our 
reach is Bigger than represented

258
00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:13,900
which is why he left trying to 
do this whole weird view count 

259
00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:16,600
thing right now. 
But yeah, which again, when I 

260
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,300
released my fake statement 
distancing myself from you and I

261
00:14:19,308 --> 00:14:22,200
got messages from people saying,
hey, my mom didn't understand 

262
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,000
your Tweet. 
Exactly. 

263
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,500
That was hysterical. 
By the way, there is a 

264
00:14:26,500 --> 00:14:29,400
penetration outside the world 
that that is even more reason 

265
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,800
for journalists to not be on 
there but if you but let's just 

266
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,500
go with my argument that it 
isn't maybe you know as 

267
00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:37,900
motivating to people has as it 
was Yas. 

268
00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:39,000
Couple of years. 
Quit what is it? 

269
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:40,800
What does it mean for 
journalists? 

270
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,000
Like because I mean Katie you've
been off maybe more than the 

271
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,500
three of us but yeah pay 
attention to shit online. 

272
00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:52,200
Continue though it's just like 
just as I'm giving up my 

273
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,100
independent platform where in my
and going to a big sort of 

274
00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:59,100
faceless Media Company. 
Maybe that's like the narrative 

275
00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:02,300
at the moment where everybody is
if there is a face of her Thomas

276
00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:05,300
Media company is the face of 
Rupert Murdoch, it's huge it 

277
00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:09,700
looms large like the a but 
journalism or Right. 

278
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,300
Twitter has meant so much to the
way a lot of journalists have 

279
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:16,900
decided whether or not their 
stories have impact and like the

280
00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:18,500
conversation that's happening 
around it. 

281
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:21,200
And even as I was kind of sort 
of off it over the last couple 

282
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,200
months, I did sort of you do 
miss a little bit, the kind of 

283
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,900
what, you know what engagement 
is my story getting what is the 

284
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:29,800
conversation around it. 
And I am kind of curious to your

285
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,600
both your thoughts on like if we
are entering a world where 

286
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,700
Twitter just matters less and 
journalists are spending less 

287
00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:38,200
time on their and viewing the 
success and penetration of their

288
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,700
stories. 
Not through how much people are 

289
00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:43,300
talking about on Twitter, but 
throughout some other prism, I 

290
00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:45,300
mean, what does that word even 
look like? 

291
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:48,800
Like, how do you decide whether 
your story is having impact? 

292
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,600
If you're not at least taking 
into account, you know, the 

293
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,600
people that are talking about it
one way or the other on Twitter.

294
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,500
That's so funny because I feel 
like my weird-ass experience 

295
00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:00,700
being in Washington which has 
been super weird. 

296
00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:04,800
Is basically what you just 
described like there are a lot 

297
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,600
of Washington reporters for on 
Twitter and very active and 

298
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,400
whatever and their Get talked 
about a lot, but then, there are

299
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,800
some reporters who are really 
not on it at all, truly, like, I

300
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,500
would say, the entire National 
Security team at the New York 

301
00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:21,100
Times is like not on Twitter, 
you know. 

302
00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:24,700
Julian, Barnes my colleague, 
Mazzetti went mad. 

303
00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:28,400
Apuzzo was still in DC before he
went to Brussels to be are like 

304
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,300
head of Investigations there. 
He like stop tweeting all 

305
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:34,900
together, our Congressional 
reporter, Nick fan, Des was 

306
00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:38,000
literally never on Twitter. 
The entire time, he covered the 

307
00:16:38,008 --> 00:16:41,500
entire Intel. 
Around Trump and to impeachments

308
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,100
and it did not impact the reach 
of their stories is what I would

309
00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:47,700
say. 
Nor did it really like, I don't 

310
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:51,300
think you would judge their work
and its success by whether or 

311
00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:54,200
not people were talking about on
Twitter or whether or not they 

312
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,900
were on Twitter the stories were
the stories. 

313
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,700
So like a secret drone program, 
right? 

314
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,099
So I mean insane about of 
hastens his take on that episode

315
00:17:04,099 --> 00:17:05,400
and you were trying to push for 
me. 

316
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:06,800
What was interesting is it's 
clear. 

317
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,700
He's never heard of any of those
people or read stories like I 

318
00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:12,000
think no, I mean, like he won't 
you have time for a story but 

319
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,500
he's a penetrated, his 
Consciousness but he has no 

320
00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:15,400
idea. 
No. 

321
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,599
I mean, like he kept talking 
about this one story that I 

322
00:17:17,608 --> 00:17:19,400
never heard of about a suitcase 
company. 

323
00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:22,500
Like it was a front panel 
talking about a secret drone 

324
00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:25,300
program. 
And I can't no idea what story 

325
00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:27,800
was talking about because I was 
like, when I think about the 

326
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,900
biggest Stories, the times 
published, in the last few 

327
00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:32,000
years, it none of them are 
suitcase stories. 

328
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:33,700
They're all like a suitcase 
startup. 

329
00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:37,800
It's like secret drone program. 
It's like this incredible. 

330
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,300
Look, we just did inside the 
military. 

331
00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:43,200
It's a lot of foreign news. 
I'm sure he hasn't read. 

332
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,200
It is, you know, stories about 
what was going on at the justice

333
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,000
department in the last days of 
the, you know, before January 6 

334
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,300
like these are really important 
story is that one of the 

335
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:57,400
reporters really tweeted out and
yet they had a lot of impact 

336
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,300
into the impact. 
In d.c. is measured by, you 

337
00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:04,000
know, does it impact an election
doesn't impact actions by 

338
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,100
Congress and rather than Twitter
this is something I really find 

339
00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:10,500
super complicated for me. 
Because I don't watch TV or 

340
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:13,300
engage with it. 
It is cable television. 

341
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:14,900
That is like, the Twitter of 
decent. 

342
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,700
So like, if reporters are on 
cable television, CNN, MSNBC 

343
00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:22,300
Fox, that is where like, and 
that's the conversation that 

344
00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:24,000
happens after the story comes 
out, right? 

345
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,500
Yes. 
That's where all the influences 

346
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:27,300
measured. 
It's not really Twitter as much.

347
00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:30,200
And I wonder if it's just 
because like, you know, Chuck 

348
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,500
Grassley was born before the 
invention of the chocolate chip 

349
00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:34,400
cookie. 
So, he might not know use like 

350
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,200
Twitter, but he definitely knows
how to like, sit, still and 

351
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,100
watch TV, something like right 
on. 

352
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,300
Sure, he used to be, if you 
remember that time, it's whoever

353
00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:44,900
it is. 
I, It's gotta be him ever his 

354
00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:47,800
one about like, assume dear dead
and all of that. 

355
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,400
The Chuck Grassley Twitter feed 
is actually incredible, but but,

356
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,900
but II hear your general take. 
Yeah. 

357
00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:54,800
That's, that's the for like his 
hands. 

358
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,500
That's when his hands were still
operational. 

359
00:18:56,500 --> 00:19:00,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
But I guess within business and 

360
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,200
Tech business, but Tech is 
totally interesting because, 

361
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,400
like, I'm sure that suitcase 
story was all over Twitter. 

362
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:09,000
Like even though it wasn't on 
the front page of the New York 

363
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,100
Times, That's probably not the 
front page of the journal are 

364
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:12,900
pretty much anywhere else on 
Twitter. 

365
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,200
I bet the suitcase story was a 
huge deal. 

366
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:21,200
I mean, tying it to my sort of 
experience on Twitter and just 

367
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,200
sort of Twitter. 
Generally in the point you're 

368
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,800
making I mean Twitter is just 
like a psychological war on the 

369
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,900
participants to convince them 
that the things that they're 

370
00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:32,300
experiencing on Twitter, really 
matter. 

371
00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:34,100
Right. 
Even some of the otherwise, why 

372
00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:37,000
are you on Twitter at? 
All right, all right, you see 

373
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,100
past the veil there? 
It's all very sad and pathetic, 

374
00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:40,500
you know? 
Oh, the left is you were like, 

375
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:43,600
cancel culture are isn't real. 
We're just sort of like, I don't

376
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,900
know, just stop reading Twitter.
And like, if this problem goes 

377
00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:48,200
away, when you're not reading 
Twitter, then you didn't get 

378
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:49,300
cancelled. 
You know what I mean? 

379
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,800
They're just agree with that. 
There's just like stop looking 

380
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,300
at the people yelling at. 
You don't respond to them, turn 

381
00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:58,800
off the app and like if the 
problem is gone, then it wasn't 

382
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,600
a problem. 
You know, like are you think 

383
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,100
it's just Twitter makes people 
who are on it more relevant so 

384
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:06,600
they have an incentive to 
believe that it's like around 

385
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,800
and I'll try and so, exactly. 
So everyone is just Playing this

386
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,500
game of, like, what happens here
is the real, you know, Global 

387
00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:17,500
discourse when, when clearly 
normies aren't reading it, the 

388
00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:19,200
president's not really reading 
it. 

389
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,600
You know, I think the Biden 
White House sort of indicated 

390
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,800
that they see it as a way to 
manipulate journalists mostly 

391
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,800
yeah, the reads it journalists 
and their editors. 

392
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,300
And so I think if we could get 
our editors off of Twitter and 

393
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:33,300
never look at it again, that 
would be the most extraordinary 

394
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:35,600
thing, that, that would be the 
real meaning of Christmas. 

395
00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:37,100
Yeah. 
But then, what would what would 

396
00:20:37,100 --> 00:20:39,600
where would the discourse take 
place in a way that Porter's 

397
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,400
could engage with it because 
okay, in d.c., you've got cable 

398
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,000
television. 
Maybe you've got like a kind of 

399
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,000
closed circuit of people who 
will, you know, read the tip 

400
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,400
sheets and talk about the 
stories and the impact that it 

401
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,400
had. 
I mean like Twitter is 

402
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,800
incredibly useful for that. 
I mean if yes it inflates, 

403
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,400
stupid stories, you know like it
inflates in important something 

404
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,000
like that. 
This fucking away story which 

405
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,100
apparently did a real. 
Real mind spark on the VC 

406
00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:05,500
investing Community. 
Yeah. 

407
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,300
I mean I own two pieces of away 
luggage and I loved it. 

408
00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:10,000
I had no idea. 
There's anything With a company 

409
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,100
and I still don't know. 
Because, you know what? 

410
00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:13,500
I didn't do, read the story. 
I just didn't give enough of a 

411
00:21:13,508 --> 00:21:14,700
shit. 
I was like, you know what, 

412
00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:18,000
there's a huge War happening in 
Europe and I'm going to take 

413
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,900
that time to read an update on 
what's going on in Ukraine, am 

414
00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:22,900
I? 
And I was like, okay, be as a 

415
00:21:22,908 --> 00:21:25,700
baby, a side point, to all of 
this, I've been reflecting on 

416
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:27,100
the eat it. 
You probably listen to a Katie 

417
00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:30,100
but we talk to Antonio Garcia 
Martinez last week just like 

418
00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:32,200
interesting who I thought is a 
smart. 

419
00:21:32,500 --> 00:21:35,300
Got tweet the episode dude. 
Like come on. 

420
00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:37,400
Well I don't see our episode 7 
Twitter anyway. 

421
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:44,200
Could you know he kind of That 
is what it is, but you know, 

422
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,500
that was really like bringing 
him on and I'm glad he came and 

423
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:48,900
I do think he is a smart guy 
who's done the reading, but it 

424
00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:51,600
was really our best attempt to 
get someone who speaks to that 

425
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,200
point of view. 
The, like, anti-tech point of 

426
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,000
view to come engage with us 
anti-media point, anti-media. 

427
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,200
Sorry. 
Sorry, anti-media point of view.

428
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,000
And I really bent over 
backwards. 

429
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,200
I thought during the episode to 
be as agreeable to him and see 

430
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,400
his points of view as much as 
possible. 

431
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,600
And the more I think about that 
episode, The more hardened, I To

432
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,600
the media perspective. 
And the fact that these guys are

433
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,300
just, it's just weird, there's 
no way. 

434
00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:17,700
We're gonna be able to bridge 
that Gap and I'm sorry, they're 

435
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:19,300
a bunch of fucking babies, 
right? 

436
00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:21,900
As if you, if you wanna talk 
about hard coverage and we're 

437
00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:24,100
like most of the hard covered 
that comes from the media. 

438
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,800
It is not go towards the fuckin 
oh a CEO. 

439
00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:29,300
It is not go towards, you know 
VCS for you. 

440
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:32,200
A nice person is the reason why 
the issue is likes you. 

441
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,300
No slack employees being upset 
if the board wanted to hold on. 

442
00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:38,100
They absolutely could have held 
on to that those people. 

443
00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:43,400
I have no, We're like the most 
aggressive anti-tech anti-tech 

444
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,700
in quotes coverage has been and 
last couple years it's been 

445
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:48,600
towards Facebook. 
It's been towards maybe Google. 

446
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,300
It's been towards face. 
I spoke. 

447
00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:53,500
Yeah. 
Yeah and like it's like they're 

448
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:57,100
still engaging with the media. 
There vample comes apartments 

449
00:22:57,100 --> 00:23:00,200
that are doing that. 
I mean they work to influence 

450
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,400
the stories that they can have 
their point of view out there. 

451
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,900
They don't just basically like 
you know, take their ball and 

452
00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:07,800
walk home because they're upset 
that a couple of mean stories 

453
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,100
were written about them and like
you This in d.c. probably 

454
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,900
exponentially more intensely. 
That the meteorites really means

455
00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:18,300
story is about Congress people 
or whatever the White House or 

456
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:19,100
any. 
Right. 

457
00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:23,500
Your brother still did not have 
strong responses. 

458
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:25,900
I was literally like begging him
like make your strongest 

459
00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:29,600
argument please like let's not 
to shit on a guess but I mean 

460
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,700
Stamos I think was so clear. 
I'd, you know, Alex Stamos, the 

461
00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:37,600
former Chief security officer 
who said they Ceylon bubble is 

462
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,800
going to pop. 
And I He he's being Vindicated 

463
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,700
by the day. 
Like thank God, we got that 

464
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:45,000
episode. 
I mean, all that Twitter poll, 

465
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:52,500
right? 
Sort of the cultural Elan bubble

466
00:23:52,500 --> 00:23:55,000
was gonna get a pop and 
everybody supporting him is 

467
00:23:55,008 --> 00:23:57,900
going to look like a fool and 
start pretending like they never

468
00:23:57,900 --> 00:24:01,200
did thankfully, you know, 
Andreessen Horowitz since the 

469
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,100
Quake. 
I check. 

470
00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:05,100
So we'll be home after them to 
pretend like they never did. 

471
00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:09,600
And all in is been all in on 
Elon Musk, but yeah, I Things 

472
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,900
are turning fast and to some 
degree, I mean, maybe this is a 

473
00:24:12,908 --> 00:24:16,300
good time to Pivot the show 
because the media is winning and

474
00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:19,700
text, you know, all the tech 
made up bullshit, Ori those 

475
00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:23,500
valuations are collapsing, 
Bitcoin, Tesla like that stuff 

476
00:24:23,500 --> 00:24:26,500
is falling. 
In reality, is coming back, it's

477
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:30,000
great. 
I don't necessarily winning or 

478
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:41,900
losing And I think that's 
totally fine and it's not like 

479
00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:46,100
Tech will go away like walnuts 
didn't go away you know like 

480
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,500
government wanted to go away 
even though reverent is trying 

481
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:51,800
to dismantle itself as quickly 
as possible like government 

482
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,700
still here we still have 
elections even though you know a

483
00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:59,700
lots happened to make people 
cynical about government so yeah

484
00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:01,800
it's not like text gonna go away
just because people are like 

485
00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:06,600
Elon Musk might not be a god. 
Well it's sort of like elections

486
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,300
where you know before Anna 
They're all these crazy 

487
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:14,500
narratives and then elections, 
ideally sort of create some 

488
00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:17,500
consensus around what the true 
narrative is based on the actual

489
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:21,800
performance of the politicians, 
similarly, in business, right? 

490
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,600
Let's darken the Red Wave, it's 
hard. 

491
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,900
It's hard for everyone to agree 
at what point the stock market 

492
00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:28,500
is rational, you know what I 
mean? 

493
00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:31,300
So, when the stock market is 
saying, Tesla's, worth the 

494
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:36,000
entire Auto industry, the media 
class, and sort of the Skeptics 

495
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,400
are in a weird place to deny 
that when You know, the stock 

496
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,000
market's are version of 
Elections. 

497
00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:46,400
The Elan bubble is it's also 
just entirely under his control.

498
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,800
I think there was a lot that, I 
mean, people have been posting 

499
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,100
all these charts showing like 
since he bought Twitter Tesla's,

500
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:54,800
stock has, you know, Fallen, 
whatever percentage. 

501
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:55,700
You know. 
Insane amount. 

502
00:25:55,700 --> 00:25:57,700
He's probably, I don't think, as
the time of recording is not the

503
00:25:57,700 --> 00:26:00,300
richest person in the world. 
Oh he was, he hasn't been for a 

504
00:26:00,308 --> 00:26:04,100
couple for a little while but I 
mean it's collapsing, it's down.

505
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:08,000
Year-to-date Tesla's down, 69%. 
He must love that. 

506
00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:11,900
I just think, like, There's no 
winning when talking to the 

507
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:14,400
people that are fully on 
diehards because they're going 

508
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,300
to say in the same way that 
people that you know, defended 

509
00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:20,800
Trump throughout the entirety of
his disastrous presidency. 

510
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,300
Saying you look what he's doing 
for the country, he's willing to

511
00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:28,500
sacrifice his net worth, and all
of his wealth in order to build 

512
00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:31,000
this country. 
Back up, the Elan Defenders are 

513
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,800
saying, well, you know, the fact
that he's lost so much money or,

514
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,100
you know, personal wealth as 
he's taken on this. 

515
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:39,700
This whole Twitter Quest is an 
example of like I'm fighting for

516
00:26:39,700 --> 00:26:42,500
free speech, so it's not been at
the Box, actually. 

517
00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:44,500
The lock-in is just such a 
powerful force. 

518
00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:46,600
Once some, once you have a 
theory of the world that 

519
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,600
revolves around someone, it's 
very hard. 

520
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,100
Yeah, to Pivot. 
Anyway, I want to change unless 

521
00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:53,400
you really have something to say
on this always. 

522
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,200
Here's just the last thing I 
would say on just that the AGM, 

523
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,400
that groups vision of media. 
And, you know, I don't he wasn't

524
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,300
necessarily endorsing himself, 
but he was basically saying some

525
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:06,700
people would say that the you 
know, the best outcome would be 

526
00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:08,800
that the New York Times and all 
mainstream media just like Burns

527
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,600
to the ground. 
And none of that stuff. 

528
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:14,300
And it seemed very violent. 
Like he, I mean, he was like, 

529
00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:16,000
Nuke the media? 
I think you killed. 

530
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,700
Yeah, yeah, it was an editor. 
Like it was, it was colorful 

531
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:20,500
language. 
I know, I'm not one of those 

532
00:27:20,508 --> 00:27:22,700
reporters that actually thinks 
were like under attack and like,

533
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,700
this is a dangerous job, really?
No, no, I mean, I understand 

534
00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:30,600
people they're definitely a who 
I think if the rules were 

535
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,300
eviscerated would kill the media
like, whatever, that's a whole 

536
00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:37,300
other conversation. 
But I just wanted to say like 

537
00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:40,500
they don't really have a 
proposition for Or anything like

538
00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:42,900
a realistic proposition for 
anything, that would replace it 

539
00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:47,700
and I watched she said the other
day, the ultimate Normie movie. 

540
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:50,100
I haven't seen now, it's not 
very good. 

541
00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:53,400
But the one thing I will say to 
it is that I think it does a 

542
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,900
good job of explaining or at 
least pointing out the role that

543
00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:01,200
the media plays when every other
institution fails because in the

544
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,600
case of Harvey Weinstein, the 
law didn't do anything. 

545
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,000
Obviously right, there were 
people that press charges and 

546
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,000
they basically drop them the 
industry. 

547
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:10,900
Do anything he wasn't 
blackballed. 

548
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,800
There is basically no recourse 
for anybody that had been raped 

549
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,300
or assaulted or harassed by him 
other than to go to the media 

550
00:28:19,300 --> 00:28:23,500
and right idea acted as its 
supposed to, which is like some 

551
00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:26,700
sort of force pushing against 
Power in order to rectify the 

552
00:28:26,708 --> 00:28:29,100
situation. 
I don't think it's the ultimate 

553
00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:31,400
solution like the media writing 
the story does, it's all in the 

554
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,300
media cannot be expected to get 
every Harvey. 

555
00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:36,800
Once that's what I've been 
losing, that's what I was losing

556
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,900
about it on Twitter with the 
leftist and what I was losing. 

557
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,700
Fighting with a GM about like 
you can't. 

558
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,100
The media is not the only 
institution. 

559
00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:47,000
You know what I mean? 
It's meant to sort of be be a 

560
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,900
self. 
It's one key stream. 

561
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:51,900
Yeah it's one piece of many and 
in the case of Harvey Weinstein,

562
00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:55,100
it was the only functional one 
and it led towards him being 

563
00:28:55,100 --> 00:28:58,000
literally put in prison for the 
things that the, you know, the 

564
00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:00,100
law was not able to do prior to 
that fight. 

565
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:02,100
And like, I don't think these 
guys, you know, I don't want to 

566
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:04,900
put a GM is like the face of it.
But the people, the biology is 

567
00:29:04,908 --> 00:29:07,000
whoever who think that the New 
York Times and all these 

568
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,500
Publications should be burnt to 
the ground. 

569
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,100
They haven't actually Will 
answer to how to deal with 

570
00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:14,000
someone like him, right? 
They just don't because every 

571
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,100
other institution that existed 
failed, and if they think the 

572
00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:18,700
New York Times shouldn't be 
there than Harvey Weinstein, 

573
00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:22,100
would arguably still be out 
making movies and attacking 

574
00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:23,500
women. 
Well, this is why I keep saying 

575
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:26,900
that the right needs to produce 
actual reporting fact-finding. 

576
00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:30,600
Like, none of like a GM, just 
launched a podcast, you know, 

577
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,000
Jason on all in is not claiming 
to be a journalist. 

578
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,700
Like none of these people are 
committing themselves to the 

579
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:40,000
moral sort of obligations of 
Journalism where oh, I might 

580
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,400
actually do some real reporting 
that would help Society. 

581
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,800
In some way, look at the Active 
starting is like the act of 

582
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,300
reporting itself is treachery, 
right? 

583
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:51,700
Like all you want is like an 
unfiltered point of view coming 

584
00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:54,300
from the person that has their 
one perspective on it. 

585
00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:57,100
And I also want to add to this 
and I'm sorry, I didn't bring it

586
00:29:57,100 --> 00:29:59,700
up in that episode. 
The example of going direct was 

587
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:04,400
very clear and its Effectiveness
during the SPF situation when 

588
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,700
Sequoia wrote their own article 
about him. 

589
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,400
So, the journalism that came to 
Lee from the investor, clearly 

590
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,000
isn't very good. 
And should they have far more 

591
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,600
access information than any of 
us, you know, right. 

592
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,100
And they wrote the glowing 
bullshit piece that they 

593
00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:18,900
apparently want us to be writing
all the time. 

594
00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:21,400
They want to be reading these 
kid-glove pieces, and the other 

595
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,300
thing I was going to say is that
Harvey Weinstein is a, he was a 

596
00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:26,400
huge donor, the Democratic party
and the New York Times and every

597
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,400
other public record of and I had
no problem writing me and 

598
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,600
stories about him. 
The idea that like we are able 

599
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,900
to logically beholdin to 
Democrats because they donate to

600
00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:36,000
I'm tired of media criticism. 
All right. 

601
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,000
I know we get a lot of reporters
on here but my goal. 

602
00:30:39,100 --> 00:30:42,400
Goal in 2023 is just not take 
media criticism. 

603
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,100
So personally not really gets 
just just stop letting them 

604
00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:48,700
work. 
The refs just like media is, I 

605
00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:52,000
think on a good footing, there's
plenty of media criticism 

606
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,100
already and just to get back to 
sort of scrutinizing, the 

607
00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:59,400
subjects and like move on from 
the bullshit of of being worked 

608
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,700
having the refs worked. 
I came into this podcast really 

609
00:31:02,700 --> 00:31:05,300
trying to be not this episode 
but like generally dead cat 

610
00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:08,700
trying to be as open to the 
other point of view as possible 

611
00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,000
and not. 
In the media, latest and and 

612
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,700
trying to criticize the media as
a way to better understand the 

613
00:31:14,708 --> 00:31:17,300
complaints against us. 
And after having conversations 

614
00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:20,400
with people, in the decide, I am
more hardened to the media side 

615
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,800
than I was going into it. 
And I didn't expect that and I 

616
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,700
don't know these people need to 
fucking grow up, you know, it's 

617
00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:29,100
America. 
And I mean the last thing just 

618
00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:34,600
while we're deconstructing the 
AGM thing is that he seemed to 

619
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:42,200
be mourning, the loss of sort of
advertising Based shared media 

620
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,400
that everyone sort of understood
together while also sort of 

621
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,800
rooting for this opinionated 
sort of sub Sac journalism. 

622
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,900
I honestly it wasn't clear, 
which world he was rooting for 

623
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,300
ya. 
So, like, it's a strange thing 

624
00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:01,900
to like, asked the media to 
re-embrace an advertising model,

625
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:04,500
that was killed by the tech 
industry, essentially, or at 

626
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:06,700
least made like much much, much 
less lucrative, and about 

627
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:09,000
blaming the tech industry, like 
it was evil that they did that. 

628
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,900
I think advertising is 
problematic for that exact 

629
00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:13,300
reason. 
Like it doesn't have morals. 

630
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:16,500
It just goes towards audience 
and I also thought, well, I 

631
00:32:16,508 --> 00:32:19,300
thought it was super bizarre 
that he wouldn't say whether he 

632
00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:23,500
was a Republican or not like oh,
I didn't if it felt very hard, 

633
00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:27,400
like I almost wanted to have a 
survey done before he came on. 

634
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,700
Like what are your profess to 
use? 

635
00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:32,200
Because there's some of the 
Republican or not is such a 

636
00:32:32,208 --> 00:32:34,200
loaded question. 
That's the most black and white 

637
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,500
thing there is like if you can't
decide which party your well 

638
00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:41,300
maybe, A few people want to 
associate with me, she like 

639
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:42,500
you're fine. 
You know, saying you're a 

640
00:32:42,508 --> 00:32:45,300
Democrat. 
Iran has die-hard Democrat, but 

641
00:32:45,300 --> 00:32:47,400
a lot of people that may even 
agree with you in a lot of 

642
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,800
politics and policies. 
Wouldn't call themselves a 

643
00:32:49,808 --> 00:32:51,100
Democrat. 
Like, I think that's a hard 

644
00:32:51,100 --> 00:32:53,900
question, ask people, they're 
wimps, you know, they don't 

645
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:56,500
admit that there's a bifurcated 
choice. 

646
00:32:56,500 --> 00:33:00,600
They have to choose one and that
choosing shows how they stack up

647
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,100
the values of the two parties. 
Anyway, that's a boring. 

648
00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:05,800
We don't need to sorry Katie. 
We were, we were, I was just 

649
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,400
saying that I thought she said 
was not a very good movie, but 

650
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,600
it did kind of Reaffirm my 
biggest that Katie was not on 

651
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,800
the podcast for that part of it.
So she's that's why she didn't 

652
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,600
have you. 
But I went I was actually saying

653
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,600
that, you know, she said, was 
not a great movie, 

654
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,000
unfortunately, my personal life 
having gone up in Flames. 

655
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,800
I haven't had the chance to 
watch as much TV and film as I'd

656
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,100
like, but when I go into a 
catatonic state of I'm 

657
00:33:39,108 --> 00:33:42,100
overwhelmed, I'm actually have a
really good long list of things 

658
00:33:42,100 --> 00:33:45,000
to watch from my room and the 
insane asylum. 

659
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,400
So I'll put she said at the in 
the middle it sounds like yeah I

660
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,400
wouldn't I wouldn't go right to 
she said but I check out our 

661
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:55,200
check out our highly recommend 
things about. 

662
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,000
I want to see it. 
Yeah I watch it. 

663
00:33:57,008 --> 00:34:00,000
Lets I would I would fight my 
boss has to come back on to this

664
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,200
podcast of a conversation about 
the ending of tar. 

665
00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:06,300
Okay there's a lot there's a lot
going on there. 

666
00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:09,600
Good episode, sorry I came back 
in and I heard are Say something

667
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,900
about both Democrats and 
Republicans. 

668
00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:16,000
Yeah we're right where we 
started reflecting last week's 

669
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,199
episode a little bit just sort 
of how we finally face. 

670
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,699
You know some iterate. 
Some real version of the media 

671
00:34:23,699 --> 00:34:26,199
critique without imagining 
ourselves and we were 

672
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,600
underwhelmed. 
I think that's the people that 

673
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,000
want to burn India media 
institutions to the ground. 

674
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:34,500
Turns out, they don't really 
have an alternative. 

675
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:37,699
So, yeah, I mean, I think that 
we would do such a good job 

676
00:34:37,699 --> 00:34:43,199
critiquing the media except 
We'll all get well Tom and I 

677
00:34:43,207 --> 00:34:45,500
think we'd be happy to give that
searing critique. 

678
00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:48,400
It's just, you know, Tom just 
starting his new job so he 

679
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,400
really can't get into it. 
I never keep mine for the 

680
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,800
healthcare but so Tom. 
I mean these are our last 

681
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,199
episode we we had one big 
bucket. 

682
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:58,700
I mean, which was you've come 
away from this podcast sort of 

683
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,600
you've sort of worked through 
the media criticism and you 

684
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,100
believe in media sort of at the 
end of the day I came as more of

685
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,900
a sort of bullshit haterade on 
the other side. 

686
00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:12,000
Yeah. 
And Millennia we cannot believe 

687
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,100
in media. 
Like you don't want news, right?

688
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,800
I don't want to that like if 
there's a fire strike if that's 

689
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,400
what's the alternative. 
Yeah. 

690
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,800
Like okay. 
So here here's an earthquake 

691
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,400
that takes out. 
Like all of, you know, Oregon 

692
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,000
and Washington and Northern 
California. 

693
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,600
Do we not want receiving some 
journalism, geologists should 

694
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,300
all start their own independent 
Stacks, right? 

695
00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:38,400
And you should if, you know, as 
a reader, not shooting, do we 

696
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:39,600
not want to? 
Know what I mean? 

697
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,900
Okay, there's that stupid. 
Do we not want to know the facts

698
00:35:41,900 --> 00:35:44,300
there? 
If there is anyway? 

699
00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:50,700
Let me Stitch holder is 
describing here, that's not the 

700
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:53,000
media that's news. 
The media is when they write an 

701
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,000
article about the founder of 
away, that's, that's the media. 

702
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,400
And that's what needs to be 
breaking ground. 

703
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,800
Well, I really love news and 
like I said, as the owner of two

704
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,900
pieces of way, luggage, I have, 
I'm very happy with them. 

705
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:08,000
I don't else to say, yeah, so 
what went wrong? 

706
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,700
What are your other big 
conclusions? 

707
00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:14,100
Or what else have we sort of 
work through throughout the 

708
00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:16,400
show? 
Yeah, this is like the last 

709
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:17,200
song. 
Did you guys see? 

710
00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:18,600
Walk Hard? 
Never Walk Hard. 

711
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,000
The Dewey Cox Story? 
Oh yeah, of Yahtzee, Riley. 

712
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,300
One of my favorite movies but at
the end of the movie, he has to 

713
00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:27,000
like sing a song at an award 
show to like some of everything 

714
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,000
he's learned in his life. 
Yeah. 

715
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,600
But anyway, what else have I 
learned through the process of 

716
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,500
this show. 
Well, I've liked our episodes, 

717
00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:37,800
who's the VC that came out at 
the at the outset of the bubble 

718
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,500
bursting. 
A Rick and Rick heintzman. 

719
00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:42,700
Yeah, Rick heintzman, I really 
liked that episode. 

720
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:44,700
That was a lot of fun. 
It was fun to hear. 

721
00:36:44,700 --> 00:36:47,400
Eric asking the question. 
What is the opposite of 

722
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,800
quantitative easing? 
Whose name for it? 

723
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,900
They're lightning tightening. 
Yeah, it was a real, like late 

724
00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:59,300
Millennial question that we 
sewed is sort of what I see some

725
00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:01,000
of the future. 
I mean, it was more businesses 

726
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,600
and more sort of financial To. 
Yeah I think we're going to 

727
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,200
enter a very interesting period 
for Tech reporters and just the 

728
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,300
tech industry in general of not 
being fueled by low, interest 

729
00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:15,400
rates, and this unending supply 
of capital that has created a 

730
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,400
bunch of interest in company, a 
bunch of fraudulent companies. 

731
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:22,000
A bunch of celebrities, probably
shouldn't have been celebrities.

732
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,300
Yeah, we're on the fence about 
the suitcase company. 

733
00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:26,300
Is it, you know, we don't know 
what's going to happen with 

734
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:28,900
Lonely Hearts. 
Yeah, it is certainly the 

735
00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:32,500
question of our time though, but
yeah. 

736
00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:39,000
I'm I think we're in for a very 
new era of reporting and even 

737
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,700
just talking about these tech 
companies and we have to ask 

738
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,800
very new questions about what 
their fundamentals are, what 

739
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,900
their values are. 
And I don't mean values, like 

740
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:48,800
cultural values, but, you know, 
like, can they make it? 

741
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,700
Like me, is, this is this thing 
worth investing thing. 

742
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:53,800
Yeah, yeah. 
I think that's going to be a lot

743
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,200
of fun, frankly, just because 
it's so new. 

744
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,600
It's just something we haven't 
had a chance to do, and we've 

745
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,300
talked a lot about sort of Sam 
Venkman freed over the Codes and

746
00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:08,100
also just, you know, the sort 
of, I don't know the tragic 

747
00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:12,700
founder, you know, we I feel 
like we obsessed over, we had 

748
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:14,400
the Elizabeth Holmes trial for a
while. 

749
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,200
Our first episode was Parker 
Conrad. 

750
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,000
Whose company zenefits? 
Imploded. 

751
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,900
I don't know. 
What's your what's your walk 

752
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:24,100
away here on the, on the 
founder? 

753
00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:29,100
Tragic, Founders. 
I think the media is very Adept,

754
00:38:29,100 --> 00:38:30,900
at building up and taking down 
characters. 

755
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:32,400
It's one of the best things we 
do. 

756
00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:36,100
Um, we love someone on the rise,
we love someone who kind of 

757
00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:39,600
breaks the mold and in each of 
the cases here, it's that was a 

758
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,900
very smart way in which they 
position their, you know, 

759
00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:46,300
character Elizabeth Holmes was, 
you know, Stanford Dropout, who 

760
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:50,300
didn't know much about, you 
know, biology turns out that was

761
00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:52,500
a bit of a red flag, but at the 
time it made her seem cool. 

762
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,700
You know, obviously being a 
woman founder, you know, she 

763
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:58,600
played that card very well and 
probably, unfortunately, the 

764
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,500
women who built companies that 
actually did things. 

765
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:04,900
Sandbank manfried. 
I mean we've talked endlessly 

766
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:06,200
about that one. 
This is going to be an 

767
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,800
incredible story going forward 
just because of how perfectly he

768
00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:17,500
played us by being this like the
face of crypto in an 

769
00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:20,300
approachable way. 
Not that long he burns super 

770
00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:21,800
hot. 
I mean I feel like he was in the

771
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,500
Zeitgeist what was like to you 
when I started throwing money 

772
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:27,400
around politics right now? 
Yeah, yeah. 

773
00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:29,100
Yeah. 
But also, you know, he was like,

774
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:32,600
I'm Pro regulation which seemed 
real kind of counterintuitive to

775
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:37,000
a lot of You know you know the 
general trend of me is so yeah I

776
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,100
guess there's not much to say 
they're like PE live by the 

777
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:44,900
sword die by the sword with with
a lot of is interesting to like 

778
00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:47,700
I think there is a bigger 
question about the idea of a 

779
00:39:47,707 --> 00:39:51,000
profile like you know we read 
profiles or it celebrity 

780
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,000
profiles where your business 
profiles for your profiles of 

781
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,000
politicians. 
And I think that it's it's 

782
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,900
always hard and it's one of the 
reasons why I would rather do an

783
00:39:59,900 --> 00:40:02,400
investigative piece then I'm 
profile because I think profiles

784
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:03,200
are hard. 
Order. 

785
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,100
Because I think it's more 
difficult to try to present 

786
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:08,600
somebody's life in the context 
of what's happening in the 

787
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,300
bigger world and actually give 
the reader something that it 

788
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:15,600
feels true. 
You know, when you read a 

789
00:40:15,607 --> 00:40:23,900
profile of a celebrity of Brad 
Pitt or of you know, or if you 

790
00:40:23,900 --> 00:40:25,900
read a profile politician, do 
you feel like you're reading 

791
00:40:25,900 --> 00:40:28,300
something true? 
Do you feel like you're reading 

792
00:40:28,300 --> 00:40:30,400
something that gives you? 
I mean I guess it gives you a 

793
00:40:30,408 --> 00:40:32,800
couple of facts but yeah, field 
true. 

794
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,200
Do you do you know the person 
after? 

795
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:37,100
Yeah. 
If you don't what do you really 

796
00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:38,800
know? 
Are you just learning something 

797
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,300
about the way we're pouring? 
I mean, the real social showed 

798
00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:44,500
into a human and so like, those 
are hard is he? 

799
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,700
I mean, you could write 3 
profiles with the same set of 

800
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:50,400
facts and have very different 
Slants, I think, absolutely. 

801
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,000
And that's and that's what a lot
of. 

802
00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:54,100
You know. 
The tech people do hate about 

803
00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:59,200
media that it's sort of, if the 
mood about, you know, Brad Pitt 

804
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:04,000
is really - right now. 
Those facts will have - slant or

805
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,500
sometimes it's really - but you 
get what who's that person? 

806
00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:08,700
Your is it like taffy? 
Some you know you get one whose 

807
00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:12,800
profile writers who's good at 
writing like sort of a positive 

808
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,300
sounding profiling - calendar 
showing how like a celebrity 

809
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:19,000
reflects on her own life and 
makes? 

810
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:20,100
Yeah. 
Sure. 

811
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,000
Which actually does feel true 
because it's like true. 

812
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,800
Never know. 
Like really like but I know how 

813
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,800
quite as good a better job. 
I'm so happy. 

814
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,500
You brought her up because I'm 
just so yeah. 

815
00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:33,300
So she's now like a showrunner 
of the show that Based on the 

816
00:41:33,308 --> 00:41:35,600
book that she wrote called 
fleischmann's in trouble. 

817
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,000
I love to cook. 
Yeah, which is, it's an 

818
00:41:38,008 --> 00:41:39,700
interesting show. 
I just watched the first episode

819
00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:42,300
last night and I read an 
interview with her afterwards. 

820
00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:44,200
It it's a book about this New 
York. 

821
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:51,900
Dr. A dog whistle who who gets 
divorced and his in the process 

822
00:41:51,900 --> 00:41:53,600
of his divorce. 
His wife just disappears for a 

823
00:41:53,607 --> 00:41:55,500
couple days and stuff with the 
kids and he kind of has this 

824
00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:57,900
like early forties sexual 
Revolution. 

825
00:41:58,300 --> 00:42:00,600
No, our sexual Awakening, where 
he's like hooking up with all 

826
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,000
these people on Tinder. 
But I read this interview, View 

827
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:04,400
with taffy. 
What's your last name, bro? 

828
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:09,100
To Sir Ochsner back Nur. 
And she was talking about her, 

829
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:12,200
you know, success writing all of
these celebrity profiles. 

830
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,800
And she wrote a really great 
piece about goop and Gwyneth 

831
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,100
Paltrow and Bradley Cooper and 
Britney Spears and people like 

832
00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:19,800
that. 
And she talked about how when 

833
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,200
she started working on this show
and had met with the actors on 

834
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,800
the show who it's Claire Danes 
and Jesse Eisenberg. 

835
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,800
And Seth Cohen from the o.c., a 
camera, the actor's name, excuse

836
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,600
me, cast, yeah. 
Yeah. 

837
00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:35,500
And she's like, I was sitting 
down Rodeo. 

838
00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:36,300
No. 
No. 

839
00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:37,800
Adam Brody. 
Yeah, yeah. 

840
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,800
And she was like, I was sitting 
down to dinner with them and 

841
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,300
talking to them as a regular 
human beings. 

842
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:46,100
And I realized they were much 
more real with me now than they 

843
00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:48,100
ever were with me as a profile 
writer. 

844
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,600
And I kind of was terrible at my
job because I was presenting 

845
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,700
these people as of this is who 
they really are. 

846
00:42:53,900 --> 00:42:55,700
But in fact, I didn't get 
anywhere with them. 

847
00:42:55,700 --> 00:42:57,700
They were just presenting a 
version of themselves to me. 

848
00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:01,100
That was appropriate for the 
media and that is kind of always

849
00:43:01,100 --> 00:43:02,800
what she struggled with as a 
profile, right? 

850
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,100
Her was like I am getting a 
version of them that they want 

851
00:43:06,100 --> 00:43:07,800
presented to me. 
But I'm supposed to be 

852
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,600
interpreting a reality behind 
that that is going to be 

853
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,300
appealing to readers. 
And there is this kind of 

854
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:16,700
inherent artifice behind any 
kind of profile writing that I 

855
00:43:16,707 --> 00:43:19,000
didn't realize. 
Until I actually had a human 

856
00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:21,700
interaction with these people 
that wasn't transactional in 

857
00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:24,700
nature. 
And I didn't do like, I would 

858
00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:27,100
basically, I was bad at my job 
up to that point which I've even

859
00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:30,400
though she is great and she and 
so, why would a business profile

860
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,800
be any different, right? 
All in there. 

861
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,600
So controlled and you have like 
investors or you have boards or 

862
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,600
you have Executive Suite saying 
we need a really good profile of

863
00:43:40,607 --> 00:43:42,300
Mark Zuckerberg. 
Like I think back to those 

864
00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:44,500
profiles in the early days of 
Facebook. 

865
00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:48,300
Those were all to Tuffy's point 
in this interview, very 

866
00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:52,200
manufactured for specific 
reason, that reporter really 

867
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,000
cannot cannot Pierce through its
hard. 

868
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,700
You can try. 
So now that Sam, Venkman feeds 

869
00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:00,400
company has collapsed, it's 
actually much easier to write 

870
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,700
about because the facts on the 
ground it's Really hard to get 

871
00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:06,800
three different versions of a 
story out of the facts, right? 

872
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,600
Like it's there's only kind of 
really one one or two versions. 

873
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,500
Now it's, and yeah, but they're,
it's much clearer now that we 

874
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:17,100
have, for example, the 
statements from the CEO, the 

875
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:20,800
accounting, the CEO is doing the
indictments by the federal 

876
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,500
government looking at a totally 
different set of facts. 

877
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:28,600
That's not about house and bacon
Freitas presenting himself or 

878
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,100
who he surrounds himself with or
what he eats for dinner but 

879
00:44:31,100 --> 00:44:32,900
they're just a literal these 
very nuts and bolts. 

880
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,100
Things of where the money went 
and then you kind of only get 

881
00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:37,600
one story. 
It's funny that 15 minutes ago, 

882
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,200
we were like, oh yeah, media is 
good, never mind. 

883
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,200
And now we're back to actually 
media is a deeply broken 

884
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,000
practice, you know, which it's 
not that it's broken, but that 

885
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,000
it's more complicated and 
difficult to write certain kinds

886
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,400
of stories. 
And then I think that people 

887
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:54,800
imagine or that even sometimes 
reporters imagined for 

888
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,500
themselves, which is why we 
could do such a good job, 

889
00:44:58,500 --> 00:45:00,300
critiquing media. 
But again, we all got to keep 

890
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:02,000
our jobs. 
Yeah. 

891
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,500
It's also, you know, part of it 
is the unknowability of people 

892
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,400
and the expectation that any 
person, especially in a 

893
00:45:11,408 --> 00:45:14,100
transactional nature, could 
figure out what makes someone 

894
00:45:14,100 --> 00:45:16,900
tick or what Corps moment in 
their history. 

895
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,400
LED them to be this person that,
you know, made them incredibly 

896
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:21,900
successful, incredibly famous 
great. 

897
00:45:21,900 --> 00:45:27,400
If you, you know, if we wrote a 
profile of Eric today about his 

898
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,900
trauma, like it would be a very 
specific version of Eric, you'd 

899
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:34,300
be defending himself, abla would
You get to know the real like 

900
00:45:34,300 --> 00:45:37,000
who he is from that story. 
Like, well interviewing the 

901
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,800
person is almost. 
Yeah, the real me is. 

902
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:44,700
Everything else is fake? 
That's true actually. 

903
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,200
Yeah, I mean, if you want this, 
this could be maybe not our last

904
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,400
episode if you want to do one. 
Well we all just drop acid at 

905
00:45:52,408 --> 00:45:55,200
the beginning and get to the 
real core of who we are. 

906
00:45:55,300 --> 00:46:02,400
Logan, spend 518 our episode 
kyndra, kyndra, kyndra like Fox,

907
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,000
you know. 
Yeah, but again, we all need to 

908
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:10,400
kind of keep our jobs. 
So I do well in the episode and 

909
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,600
this has been an idea that sort 
of been bounced around my head. 

910
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,800
Just the sense, you know, we 
live in like this fog. 

911
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,200
Like, there's so many facts in 
the world that we don't know, 

912
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,400
especially in business, there's 
just so much this undisclosed. 

913
00:46:23,500 --> 00:46:27,300
So, we have that problem, which 
I think is obvious and easy to 

914
00:46:27,300 --> 00:46:31,000
agree to on, but I think another
problem, the creates this 

915
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,700
narrative mess right now with 
sort of And the anti-media is 

916
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:39,400
just like there isn't a lot of 
consensus on shared stories and 

917
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,200
shared values, you know, like I 
think part of the problem is 

918
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:46,000
like, okay with SBF. 
It's fairly easy because 

919
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,600
everybody agrees like, fraud 
theft, they're bad, but I think 

920
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,500
like going back to this sort of 
founder narrative stories. 

921
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,800
I think it's a lot less clear 
you know like Parker Conrad. 

922
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,500
Our first guest it's like his 
sins seems small. 

923
00:47:00,500 --> 00:47:02,800
He's exciting he's going for it 
again. 

924
00:47:02,900 --> 00:47:07,900
Then like how to spin those 
stories and, like, where our 

925
00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:13,400
values are in terms of, I don't 
know, failure and sort of Boss 

926
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,600
employee relationships, like, 
all those things we don't have 

927
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,800
shared values, so it's very hard
to have shared stories. 

928
00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:23,000
Well, I also think and this 
actually came out of my 

929
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,200
reflecting on. 
She said a mediocre movie, but 

930
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,600
an interesting topic to think 
about and a great story, which 

931
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,200
Tom was saying earlier. 
Yeah, that I think the media is 

932
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:37,000
very Writing stories in which 
there's clear criminal 

933
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,200
misconduct like Harvey Weinstein
was the best examples backs 

934
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,200
being and you can't really move 
those facts around and tell 

935
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:45,300
them. 
Yeah, I continue. 

936
00:47:45,500 --> 00:47:47,500
Yeah, hurry went skiing like 
that whole period that like, 

937
00:47:47,500 --> 00:47:49,800
that whole story was a great one
of the best examples of 

938
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,700
accountability journalism, it 
just basically every other 

939
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:55,800
system failed, but the media was
able to kind of point out that, 

940
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,100
you know, there's in 
controversial Oreo. 

941
00:47:58,300 --> 00:48:00,600
You know what I'm saying? 
Like, unassailable facts that he

942
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,500
broke the law and he He damaged 
all these people and I think 

943
00:48:04,500 --> 00:48:06,000
that's why that story was held 
on. 

944
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,800
We agreed that the actions that 
didn't necessarily break the law

945
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,800
were immoral and wrong to. 
Right. 

946
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,800
Yeah I think the gray area ones 
where I think the media really 

947
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,000
finds itself in a lot of trouble
and where you end up kind of 

948
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,900
coming to conclusions that may 
be unfair to some of the 

949
00:48:18,900 --> 00:48:21,300
subjects in it because it really
can go both ways. 

950
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,400
But there's such a need to come 
up with some sort of conclusion 

951
00:48:25,500 --> 00:48:29,200
or final analysis on what 
happened that certain people 

952
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,400
just get thrown under the bus 
even if what they did is 

953
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,800
debatable. 
Still and I think that's been 

954
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,500
the problem with a lot of these 
kind of corporate culture 

955
00:48:37,500 --> 00:48:42,300
stories, not to bring any way 
because I actually like Jason 

956
00:48:42,300 --> 00:48:45,300
Cole gets a lot. 
So but I mean it seemed to me 

957
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,800
that that was his worry and fear
and anxiety around this suitcase

958
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,200
story was a like, the suitcases 
were being used in ways that 

959
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,400
were like much to put on a 
Suitcase. 

960
00:48:55,900 --> 00:48:58,700
Yeah, I really don't know what 
the story was about. 

961
00:48:58,700 --> 00:49:16,600
Do you. 
Chemical burns because the 

962
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,000
lithium battery exploded on the 
would actually be like a pretty 

963
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:29,500
straightforward, but then they 
don't agree on what the like 

964
00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:32,900
accountability, for example, in 
the Harvey Weinstein thing. 

965
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,400
The accountability is still with
the prosecutors, right? 

966
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,400
Jodi. 
And Megan didn't then go to law 

967
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,800
school, right? 
Past the bar become State 

968
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,400
prosecutors and take him in 
front of a jury. 

969
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,300
Like the accountability is still
outside of the media 

970
00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:50,900
organization. 
I think is actual solution 

971
00:49:51,100 --> 00:49:54,400
exists outside of the media. 
Yeah like laws that were hard 

972
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,600
times in different stages of 
rape, by the way, right? 

973
00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:01,700
Let me get a couple times like 
in multiple did not do that. 

974
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,500
Been convicted if the jury had 
not found him guilty, that also 

975
00:50:06,500 --> 00:50:09,600
would not have been the times. 
And so, I think that because of 

976
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,000
a lot of things that have 
happened culturally in the last,

977
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:19,000
you know, let's see, 86 years, 
certain president there's, 

978
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,900
there's, there's been a wish and
desire for the media to not only

979
00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:26,500
be able to surface the stories 
that prompt the questions and 

980
00:50:26,500 --> 00:50:30,500
prompt the difficulties arise. 
But you are taller than take 

981
00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:32,900
people and put them in jail, and
that is not. 

982
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:35,000
Literally never going to happen 
nor should it. 

983
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:39,700
And again, if the jury had not 
convicted Harvey that would not 

984
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:42,600
have been the times either, 
this, slowness of the legal 

985
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,500
system in a Twitter culture, I 
do think is one of the 

986
00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:48,300
underestimated issues of our 
time. 

987
00:50:48,300 --> 00:50:53,300
Like we move fast, the business 
world moves extremely fast, but 

988
00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:56,800
government moves too slow. 
And obviously, there's a level 

989
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:02,300
of sort of thoughtfulness and 
due process that you want with. 

990
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,500
Mint but man it is way too slow,
definitely broken. 

991
00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:08,100
Like I think it's a core 
problem. 

992
00:51:08,300 --> 00:51:11,800
I mean from the regulatory front
that the SEC just Waits out. 

993
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,800
You know, crypto basically lets 
it blow up before they punish 

994
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,600
anybody. 
I think this Harvey whines any 

995
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,700
of this stuff. 
The government is not delivering

996
00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:24,900
as sort of a, its cultural 
piece, right? 

997
00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:27,600
It's going, the Trump any sort 
of trump intervention. 

998
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,800
The idea that we would have 
Trump prosecution's now when 

999
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,300
it's basically irrelevant 
because not In. 

1000
00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:36,400
But not when it actually 
mattered is just a total 

1001
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,800
dereliction of Duty. 
So I think this point most 

1002
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:44,400
careless Duty by whom by anyone 
who could reasonably have 

1003
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,800
charged or decides to charge 
down the road if they didn't 

1004
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:49,400
charge when it actually 
mattered. 

1005
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:54,100
I just think his delusions, they
can find evidence of somebody 

1006
00:51:54,100 --> 00:51:58,300
committing a crime, they should 
charge, no matter, they have to 

1007
00:51:58,300 --> 00:52:01,200
have the case, but they should 
turn it whether or not impact 

1008
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,700
somebody's ability to be 
President, like, I still think 

1009
00:52:04,700 --> 00:52:07,100
it's worthy to charge it. 
Like, for example, you could say

1010
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,400
no, you could say, what's the 
point of charging Harvey 

1011
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,000
Weinstein? 
Now that he's decrepit old man 

1012
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,000
with a walker when he can trust 
anyone anymore, right? 

1013
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:14,400
Right. 
They should have charged him 

1014
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,900
when he was raping but it right.
And no, I think it's good that 

1015
00:52:16,900 --> 00:52:18,600
much better better late than 
never. 

1016
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,800
But I'm saying it would be well,
I think the president either 

1017
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,400
border crying. 
It's hard to put the, you know, 

1018
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,100
the issues around charging the 
president with the crime which 

1019
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:29,100
is never actually been done and 
may not even be legal. 

1020
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,600
No, we have charged people with 
rape and they have been 

1021
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,200
convicted before in history. 
Right, right. 

1022
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,000
But like the fact that it took 
this long to get, even the 

1023
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,000
stories out there publicly about
Harvey Weinstein, was a failure 

1024
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,100
in the system up to this point. 
And and I was saying, like the 

1025
00:52:43,100 --> 00:52:46,200
long-term solution to I'm sorry 
killing took forever do, I mean 

1026
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,500
there are lots of these that 
Kelly take forever. 

1027
00:52:48,500 --> 00:52:53,500
And so I think something so I 
guess it's not just me Jeffrey 

1028
00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:56,500
Epstein, you know, like they 
couldn't keep him alive, you 

1029
00:52:56,500 --> 00:52:59,800
know, they just well, I mean 
narrative, the there's to your 

1030
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,500
point earlier time the narrative
around Tech is going to get Much

1031
00:53:03,500 --> 00:53:06,700
days here because there's going 
to be a downturn and the 

1032
00:53:06,700 --> 00:53:11,900
industry. 
I think that that is I think 

1033
00:53:11,900 --> 00:53:14,800
that also we have in 
acknowledging that we have to 

1034
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,600
acknowledge how much of 
especially the startup industry 

1035
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,600
really needs has been fueled by 
the media and partnered with the

1036
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:25,900
media. 
So if that goes away, you know 

1037
00:53:25,900 --> 00:53:29,200
what gets Built My Hope Is that 
just better companies, get 

1038
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,400
built. 
But right, so I just wrote a 

1039
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:35,100
piece about like this bubble. 
Seeing and one of my points in 

1040
00:53:35,100 --> 00:53:39,200
the piece was just, I don't, 
this isn't like 2008 where I 

1041
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,200
think there's some like huge 
societal Stakes like let the 

1042
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,800
bubble burst let some people 
lose some money like I don't 

1043
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,400
know. 
Is it really going to make Tech 

1044
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,900
more of a villain? 
Like in some ways it's gonna 

1045
00:53:49,900 --> 00:53:52,600
push the other companies. 
You can write. 

1046
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,700
I think you need to be closer to
reality. 

1047
00:53:55,700 --> 00:53:58,800
Like honestly, I think we've 
sort of, I mean, maybe I'm 

1048
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,000
naive, no play a different way 
but we've sort of seen a lot of 

1049
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,400
the villainy People sort of 
hucksters selling and of teas 

1050
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,900
and shit. 
And now that's being corrected. 

1051
00:54:09,900 --> 00:54:12,900
And so, those people lose some 
money, we get back to reality 

1052
00:54:12,900 --> 00:54:17,100
and I don't know that it's going
to actually turn Society more 

1053
00:54:17,500 --> 00:54:20,100
against Tech because I think 
Tech will see more level-headed.

1054
00:54:20,100 --> 00:54:24,400
Like, I don't do you disagree, 
do we need villains and heroes? 

1055
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:25,800
I mean like, that's okay. 
Yeah. 

1056
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,800
Just building, you know if be 
back to profile writing it is an

1057
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:30,800
easier way to kind of organize 
the world. 

1058
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,900
It is a way easier way, but it 
might not be the best. 

1059
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,000
Sway. 
But this just feels pretty 

1060
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:40,000
disconnected from, I don't know.
Well, I also think a lot of tech

1061
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,400
Founders grew to be very 
uncomfortable with the amount of

1062
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:44,700
attention that they were 
getting. 

1063
00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:47,500
I mean, when San Francisco when 
you guys both lived here in San 

1064
00:54:47,500 --> 00:54:50,800
Francisco, for a brief period 
was like the cultural. 

1065
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:55,300
And, you know, economic Hub of 
the country and there were, you 

1066
00:54:55,300 --> 00:54:57,700
know, which is a strange place 
that someone growing up in the 

1067
00:54:57,700 --> 00:55:01,000
Bay Area for the city to be. 
I think it ended up reflecting 

1068
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,500
very poorly as it would on 
almost any tea and group of 

1069
00:55:03,500 --> 00:55:05,500
people the people really 
couldn't handle it anyway. 

1070
00:55:05,500 --> 00:55:08,000
I mean, like Manhattan, during 
the height of like the Wall 

1071
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,800
Street like boom. 
In 2007 Manhattan was like 

1072
00:55:11,100 --> 00:55:13,500
grotesque to be in most parts of
it. 

1073
00:55:13,500 --> 00:55:16,900
Like the sort of bottle service 
culture of it all and like women

1074
00:55:16,900 --> 00:55:19,500
with not much clothes, like 
addresses bringing out like 

1075
00:55:19,500 --> 00:55:21,800
champagne with sparklers and all
of it was just like sort of like

1076
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,000
Nikki. 
Yeah, yeah, San Francisco. 

1077
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:26,300
Went through a different version
of that. 

1078
00:55:26,300 --> 00:55:28,700
For, for that, it was just more 
like hiring task rabbit stew, 

1079
00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:32,100
weight loss, Provisions for 
something. 

1080
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,300
Into fights at like the soccer 
field in the mission. 

1081
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,400
But yeah, I so we're allowed to 
show. 

1082
00:55:41,100 --> 00:55:43,000
Well, that's always the funniest
thing about tech, right? 

1083
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,000
Is that, like, you know, another
thing, I can bring it for the 

1084
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,200
millionth time in this podcast, 
when you read through Barbarians

1085
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,600
at the gate and they talk about,
you know, that that 80s, you 

1086
00:55:51,607 --> 00:55:55,300
know, Bond culture, at least the
people that were running, those,

1087
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,200
you know, giant private Equity 
Funds and companies, at least 

1088
00:55:58,200 --> 00:55:59,600
they, kind of knew what to do 
with the money. 

1089
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,500
You know, they would kind of 
look like they were having fun 

1090
00:56:01,500 --> 00:56:03,100
with it. 
They would have like Fleet Of 

1091
00:56:03,100 --> 00:56:07,000
private jets and buying you know
watches for Frank Gifford and 

1092
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,400
weird shit like that but at Tech
it was just like what do you 

1093
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:12,600
exactly spending the money on? 
It's just that's why they moved 

1094
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,300
to Miami in the end you know. 
Right. 

1095
00:56:14,300 --> 00:56:17,300
Right where they could like be 
where they could have you know 

1096
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,800
by some high-end art go to some 
clubs and and you know the 

1097
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:27,200
Google co-founders are spending 
on islands that really see you 

1098
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:32,300
know what? 
Yeah yeah but I wonder you know 

1099
00:56:32,300 --> 00:56:36,700
if Entering a more rational 
period of tech where the 

1100
00:56:36,700 --> 00:56:39,600
valuations will be compressed of
multiples of be compressed and 

1101
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,900
the kind of stories that have 
been written for the last couple

1102
00:56:41,900 --> 00:56:44,100
of years. 
Won't mean, as much anymore. 

1103
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:46,400
What does that say? 
More broadly about like the 

1104
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:50,500
business world because Tech was 
kind of this miraculous engine 

1105
00:56:50,500 --> 00:56:54,300
of American exceptionalism, over
the last couple of years and it 

1106
00:56:54,308 --> 00:56:57,300
was shown as like this is how 
we're still out on the frontier 

1107
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:58,900
compared to the rest of the 
world. 

1108
00:56:58,900 --> 00:57:01,800
And if tech is just going to be 
another industry with, you know,

1109
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,100
rational You ations and still 
done like.com. 

1110
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,500
This is not an existential 
question. 

1111
00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:11,400
The stanshall, I'm just, no, I 
know you're not but I'm just 

1112
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:14,400
that it is about crypto, but 
it's certainly not about tech 

1113
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:19,300
and Tech is still going to be 
the dominant. 

1114
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:22,900
Part of it, I think it'll be 
hard but instead it dominant 

1115
00:57:22,900 --> 00:57:25,100
part of business. 
It's in every part of every 

1116
00:57:25,100 --> 00:57:28,800
industry right now and I don't 
like companies are still silica 

1117
00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:32,300
like VC originated. 
You know that funding model 

1118
00:57:32,300 --> 00:57:35,500
going going big. 
There's still a ton of VC money 

1119
00:57:35,500 --> 00:57:38,800
like I think that process is an 
ending. 

1120
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,300
So we have that story and then 
we still have. 

1121
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:45,300
I mean the content, moderation 
and sort of how we have these 

1122
00:57:45,300 --> 00:57:48,900
conversations online is still 
very much alive. 

1123
00:57:48,900 --> 00:57:49,800
Yeah. 
They're all going to be 

1124
00:57:50,300 --> 00:57:52,500
Interesting important or not. 
All going to be important, 

1125
00:57:52,500 --> 00:57:54,200
companies are getting plenty of 
important companies but they're 

1126
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,500
not going to be exceptional. 
I don't think they're going to 

1127
00:57:56,508 --> 00:57:59,000
exist in a class outside of the 
rest of the business world. 

1128
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,200
I think a generative AI, the 
rise of the I/O, happy New Year,

1129
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:05,700
Steph the cool Tom wrote of his 
last parting shot, an Insider 

1130
00:58:05,700 --> 00:58:10,800
was to to shit on whether or 
just to cast, what to cast doubt

1131
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:15,000
on whether generative is a, I 
would be helpful in the company.

1132
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,200
What would replace Google? 
So I'm happy to talk about that 

1133
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,300
for a second here because New 
York Times literally said the 

1134
00:58:19,300 --> 00:58:24,100
opposite We, and that's what 
know, Nico wrote a really great 

1135
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:25,900
story for the times. 
That was talking about how good 

1136
00:58:25,900 --> 00:58:28,400
I know I dragged mom. 
Can we like, just a Twitter plan

1137
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,500
to the audience at the reason 
why I don't know anything that's

1138
00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:33,200
fucking going on, is because 
like, everybody, I love is sick 

1139
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:36,200
and dying, and I've been really 
busy, and it's not because I 

1140
00:58:36,207 --> 00:58:37,400
stopped reading the New York 
Times. 

1141
00:58:37,500 --> 00:58:40,500
It's not because I hate media. 
It's literally just because when

1142
00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:44,600
I'm not doing this podcast or 
doing my day job, I'm like, 

1143
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:46,900
literally just keeping track of 
all the people who could die. 

1144
00:58:46,900 --> 00:58:49,800
Anyway, keep going part of why 
we're doing this. 

1145
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,000
I guess is like 80 be distracted
for an hour. 

1146
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,600
That's the very good chance. 
That's the greatest hits, but we

1147
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:57,600
could give with this podcast, 
take people away. 

1148
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,400
Only way Tom and I know how to 
be good friends. 

1149
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,800
Hey, come on our podcast. 
That's a good way to maintain 

1150
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,700
any friendship, it's all just 
podcast related, interact juice 

1151
00:59:06,700 --> 00:59:09,600
for us. 
All right, just just create 

1152
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:11,200
content, that can be 
distributed. 

1153
00:59:11,500 --> 00:59:14,600
So generative AI, we, you know, 
obviously what that is. 

1154
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:19,400
And so there's been this kind of
Meme and argument among the tech

1155
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,700
report In class, especially that
all of these Technologies 

1156
00:59:22,700 --> 00:59:25,400
specifically chat GPT, which 
maybe you've seen. 

1157
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,100
It's kind of like a chatbot 
that's very smart and can 

1158
00:59:28,100 --> 00:59:31,800
produce very interesting, you 
know, intelligent human sounding

1159
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,400
responses to questions. 
There's this argument that it's 

1160
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,300
going to replace Google and that
Google is fucked because the new

1161
00:59:37,300 --> 00:59:39,400
way of searching and getting 
answers to things is going to be

1162
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,100
interacting with open a eyes, 
you know, G PT 3 or GPT for 

1163
00:59:43,100 --> 00:59:47,200
which it would come out next 
year or chat GPT and New York 

1164
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:48,600
Times. 
Nico Grant who's a really good 

1165
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:49,800
reporter. 
Wrote a piece that talks. 

1166
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,100
About how Google is declaring 
it, you know, Red Alert or code 

1167
00:59:53,100 --> 00:59:56,100
red internally because they feel
that they have kind of missed 

1168
00:59:56,100 --> 01:00:00,800
the boat to this point on. 
You know what, generative Ai and

1169
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,800
chat Bots will do for the future
of search and it came out a 

1170
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:05,400
couple of days. 
After I wrote a story that 

1171
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:09,000
basically said chat is not 
anywhere close to replacing 

1172
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,200
search, it has huge flaws in it.
It's a lying expense. 

1173
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:14,300
What's wrong all the time? 
It's very cocky. 

1174
01:00:14,300 --> 01:00:17,800
Like it gives you a very 
confident sounding answer this 

1175
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:29,400
one minor or be attacked. 
You know, it sounds like to 

1176
01:00:29,408 --> 01:00:32,100
bring up this example now so 
yesterday because I do love 

1177
01:00:32,100 --> 01:00:35,200
talking about it to people and 
because it is a really fun demo 

1178
01:00:35,300 --> 01:00:36,500
to bring to people. 
Everyone's you do it at 

1179
01:00:36,508 --> 01:00:39,700
Christmas, you know, wants chat 
GPT and show him how good it is 

1180
01:00:39,700 --> 01:00:43,200
at respond to your questions but
I wanted to show Rosa recently 

1181
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:44,800
how good it is at writing 
essays. 

1182
01:00:45,100 --> 01:00:48,300
And so I was like, oh I should 
have it write an essay like in 

1183
01:00:48,300 --> 01:00:50,700
doing interpreting, the 
symbolism of some Short story 

1184
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,400
and I was like, I remember when 
I was in college, I read the 

1185
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:56,500
short story that was something 
about a girlfriend talking about

1186
01:00:56,500 --> 01:00:59,200
her. 
Boyfriend was evolving reverse, 

1187
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,000
having like reverse experiencing
reverse Evolution and I couldn't

1188
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,400
remember the name of the short 
story, but I remember that that 

1189
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,600
was like an opening line. 
Like my boyfriend is evolving in

1190
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,100
Reverse normally. 
You would just go to Google and 

1191
01:01:09,100 --> 01:01:10,400
type that in and come up with 
the name of it. 

1192
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:12,000
But like, no, let me ask chap 
GPT. 

1193
01:01:12,500 --> 01:01:14,500
So I asked you have to be T. 
What's the name of the short 

1194
01:01:14,500 --> 01:01:17,200
story where the narrator says 
her, boyfriend is evolving in 

1195
01:01:17,207 --> 01:01:19,800
reverse and they're like the 
story that you were talking. 

1196
01:01:19,900 --> 01:01:21,900
Seeing about is called the 
reverse evolution of Chuck, 

1197
01:01:21,900 --> 01:01:24,600
Palahniuk in which the narrator 
it talks about her boyfriend, 

1198
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:26,600
Chuck Palahniuk is evolving in 
Reverse. 

1199
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,300
I'm like, what the fuck? 
What are you talking about? 

1200
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:32,500
I've never heard of the short 
stories, then I go to Google and

1201
01:01:32,500 --> 01:01:36,000
I type in the evolution of 
Chuck, Palahniuk in Quotes. 

1202
01:01:36,100 --> 01:01:37,900
No responses. 
Yeah. 

1203
01:01:38,100 --> 01:01:40,400
And then I go to Google and type
in the same question that I gave

1204
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,700
chat GPT which is like, what's 
the name of the short story? 

1205
01:01:42,700 --> 01:01:45,200
And they're like, oh, it's the 
remember or by a me Bender, 

1206
01:01:45,700 --> 01:01:48,100
which is like this anthologized 
short story that was written in 

1207
01:01:48,100 --> 01:01:51,500
like the late 90s. 
So immediately it Me the correct

1208
01:01:51,500 --> 01:01:54,700
answer to it the Wikipedia page 
to that short story. 

1209
01:01:55,100 --> 01:01:57,500
Where is chibi T. 
Literally just fucking made it 

1210
01:01:57,500 --> 01:02:00,400
up, but it didn't go anywhere. 
Came up here, you seem to me 

1211
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,200
like a Chuck Palahniuk fan, just
just like looking at you. 

1212
01:02:03,500 --> 01:02:06,100
So maybe you knew me better than
I did. 

1213
01:02:07,100 --> 01:02:11,600
This story is very much like my 
gas car does goes very fast like

1214
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:15,500
why why I need an electric car 
that level driving directly into

1215
01:02:15,500 --> 01:02:19,800
a wall recharged every, you 
know, like, yeah, it's a newer. 

1216
01:02:19,900 --> 01:02:21,900
Knology. 
You know, they're working on it.

1217
01:02:21,900 --> 01:02:24,600
One of the most interesting 
things about this era and 

1218
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,200
writing about chat GPT and open 
AI is their willingness to 

1219
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,400
release a product. 
That is clearly not streak, 

1220
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:33,300
ready, right? 
This thing is in no ways a 

1221
01:02:33,308 --> 01:02:36,500
replacement or even potestas 
willing to do it with a car. 

1222
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,600
Yeah, well, this is something 
that's interesting with 

1223
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,500
self-driving, right? 
You know, like what happened, 

1224
01:02:41,500 --> 01:02:44,400
really self-driving, any sir, 
well Tesla, hell, yes, it he'll 

1225
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,200
die but you know like the 
responsible companies have not. 

1226
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:48,800
Where's open a? 
I basically just and there's 

1227
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,100
been a lot of criticism. 
In the AI world for open a.i.? 

1228
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:55,500
Well, I think I mean opening, I,
you know, use stable diffusion 

1229
01:02:55,500 --> 01:02:58,100
as part, you know, there is 
there are other people who came 

1230
01:02:58,100 --> 01:03:00,200
out ahead and then well it's 
gonna be out there. 

1231
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:03,600
We'll we'll do it. 
I mean, Google has seemingly 

1232
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:06,000
been very restrained. 
I mean, they write a lot more 

1233
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:08,200
cautious about their self 
driving cars are much more 

1234
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,700
cautious about whatever their 
Dolly competitor is. 

1235
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,900
I mean, you're you're about to 
be covering Microsoft, which is 

1236
01:03:14,900 --> 01:03:18,100
very closely partnered with open
a.i. 

1237
01:03:18,100 --> 01:03:19,700
So I'm sure you'll be writing 
about this. 

1238
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,900
This fight with Google ton going
for? 

1239
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:24,500
Yeah. 
And I think it's also something 

1240
01:03:24,500 --> 01:03:26,200
that you out to Tom. 
Yeah. 

1241
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:27,500
Yeah. 
My DMs are open. 

1242
01:03:27,500 --> 01:03:28,900
That's the only thing I use 
Twitter foot. 

1243
01:03:28,900 --> 01:03:35,200
Make clear to him that if you 
need to hang your scoops on him 

1244
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:37,700
getting permission from Wall 
Street Journal, editors to let 

1245
01:03:37,700 --> 01:03:40,800
him come on the podcast, we like
this cube is. 

1246
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:43,500
If Tom does another episode and 
then he can go to his editors 

1247
01:03:43,500 --> 01:03:45,400
and be like, listen, I don't 
know. 

1248
01:03:47,700 --> 01:03:52,700
I think he's for them. 
What about me here? 

1249
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,800
I don't want to position myself 
as the anti AI guy. 

1250
01:03:56,100 --> 01:03:57,800
I think it's really interesting 
technology. 

1251
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:01,900
I do think the media is running 
into an issue, which is that it 

1252
01:04:01,900 --> 01:04:03,900
is kind of suspicious that. 
At the same time that a lot of 

1253
01:04:03,900 --> 01:04:05,800
VC Investments are going into 
AI. 

1254
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,600
You're seeing a lot of stories 
written by reporters saying this

1255
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:10,700
is the future and this is 
replacing Google, which is 

1256
01:04:10,700 --> 01:04:16,800
exactly argue this and this is 
exactly what DC's want to have 

1257
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:18,700
happen because then you are 
investing in a really valuable 

1258
01:04:18,700 --> 01:04:20,600
company. 
My God, the next Google, how 

1259
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:22,800
great would that be? 
And so, first of all, it's a 

1260
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:27,200
funny counter to the idea that, 
you know, the media hates Tech, 

1261
01:04:27,500 --> 01:04:29,100
right? 
Because we are hyping up a new 

1262
01:04:29,100 --> 01:04:31,300
technology, we need to 
acknowledge that. 

1263
01:04:31,300 --> 01:04:36,200
There's a relationship, right? 
Venture capital and the and I 

1264
01:04:36,207 --> 01:04:38,200
think we need, right? 
But I also want to clear-eyed 

1265
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:41,100
about just how Humanity Works 
Humanity wants on you to talk 

1266
01:04:41,100 --> 01:04:42,700
about. 
It's like we're bored of these 

1267
01:04:42,700 --> 01:04:44,400
old themes. 
Like what's the new thing we can

1268
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,300
like? 
All right, hash out like that's 

1269
01:04:46,300 --> 01:04:49,200
good. 
I mean and it's fun to the sent,

1270
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:50,700
the sense. 
We don't have a, it's good to 

1271
01:04:50,707 --> 01:04:51,800
have a shared common. 
Station. 

1272
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:53,700
Like if anything, it would be 
more fun. 

1273
01:04:53,700 --> 01:04:56,500
If more people could talk about 
the same things, you know, we 

1274
01:04:56,500 --> 01:04:59,400
all have our different little 
media outlets and look at them, 

1275
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:03,300
you know, in different degrees 
of meta, and self, reflexivity 

1276
01:05:03,300 --> 01:05:04,600
or whatever. 
But we're all talking about, 

1277
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:07,200
some interesting like that. 
So much of the Nostalgia for the

1278
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:09,900
90s is that it was the last time
that we all talk about the same 

1279
01:05:09,900 --> 01:05:11,600
stuff. 
So even though not everybody 

1280
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,800
like monoculture, loved the show
Friends. 

1281
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:16,300
We all just kind of watched it 
together and we didn't love 

1282
01:05:16,300 --> 01:05:18,800
these things, but we did it 
together and so that's, you 

1283
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:20,600
know, I don't know if I'll ever 
have that again. 

1284
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:24,800
I Just watched a Lindsay Lohan 
Netflix movie we couldn't Point 

1285
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,800
Eric and I are never going to 
share that experience. 

1286
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:30,400
Anyway, the last thing on the AI
side of things I will say is 

1287
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,600
that when you talk to these 
people and I expect to be 

1288
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:35,500
talking to a lot of, you know, 
the people that are working on 

1289
01:05:35,500 --> 01:05:37,700
the front lines of building a 
high-tech. 

1290
01:05:37,700 --> 01:05:41,800
They are extremely confident in 
their belief that this will 

1291
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,500
replace so many different kinds 
of jobs and not only that it 

1292
01:05:45,500 --> 01:05:47,500
will do it, but it will do it in
the next like, three or four 

1293
01:05:47,500 --> 01:05:50,000
years and it's very compelling 
talking to them. 

1294
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,300
And I think a lot of Is fall 
into the Trap of listening to 

1295
01:05:53,300 --> 01:05:56,500
them and assuming that, that is 
truth and it is certainly a 

1296
01:05:56,500 --> 01:05:59,600
version of truth. 
But I encourage a lot of people 

1297
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,200
over the next couple of months, 
as this becomes probably the 

1298
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:06,300
biggest story in Tech to measure
your enthusiasm for the people 

1299
01:06:06,700 --> 01:06:10,000
that are talking to about it 
with the realities of what the 

1300
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:13,300
tech can't do. 
And I think Eric you were like 

1301
01:06:13,300 --> 01:06:15,800
very outspoken in your belief 
that like self-driving was a 

1302
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:17,500
waste of time to write. 
Yeah. 

1303
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:20,500
When you were covering, it was 
something that was supposed to 

1304
01:06:20,508 --> 01:06:22,300
be with us. 
Today. 

1305
01:06:22,300 --> 01:06:25,700
I mean like yeah, right last 
year it was like 20 challenge. 

1306
01:06:25,700 --> 01:06:29,600
14 2000 strategy was just like 
not right about it a lot and the

1307
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:34,000
challenges there isn't much 
benefit to anyone to reporters 

1308
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:36,500
to just like I'm out on that 
story. 

1309
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:39,700
I mean you I get to if you have 
really good friends or willing 

1310
01:06:39,700 --> 01:06:42,800
to brag about you, I guess you 
get to be self-indulgent but 

1311
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:44,300
it's even hard to convince 
people. 

1312
01:06:44,300 --> 01:06:46,800
It's like always smart about not
doing something, you know I mean

1313
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,500
is it's hard to just like sit 
out the conversation and to just

1314
01:06:50,500 --> 01:06:54,200
like scold the Conversation to 
add more attention to it. 

1315
01:06:54,300 --> 01:06:56,500
I'm just more bullish on 
generative AI to be clear 

1316
01:06:56,500 --> 01:07:01,100
because I think the thresh, it 
doesn't need a be as good to be 

1317
01:07:01,100 --> 01:07:03,100
useful. 
I think it's unclear. 

1318
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,400
I think we're probably going to 
be bad at predicting which jobs 

1319
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:10,600
get displaced but I think we 
also underestimate as Elites 

1320
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:14,500
just like how much most people 
aren't great at writing. 

1321
01:07:14,500 --> 01:07:18,000
Don't feel comfortable writing 
and like you can use it like in 

1322
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,300
their daily life to be more 
literate you know or come off as

1323
01:07:21,500 --> 01:07:23,300
More literate. 
So I think it's gonna be pretty 

1324
01:07:23,300 --> 01:07:25,800
powerful. 
Yeah, it has a place and I'm not

1325
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,100
saying don't write about it or I
guess I'm going to. 

1326
01:07:28,100 --> 01:07:30,300
So everyone will call me a 
hypocrite when they see stories 

1327
01:07:31,100 --> 01:07:34,400
that I've written about it. 
But I just think it's probably 

1328
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:39,000
would do reporters. 
Well to not jump to conclusions 

1329
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:42,300
that it's going to replace a 
trillion dollar company, right? 

1330
01:07:42,300 --> 01:07:44,800
That's couple of years and I'm 
not saying that's what Nico 

1331
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:48,200
story did. 
But you know it's easy for Red 

1332
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:50,900
Alert or something right here. 
Yeah I think toad rat or 

1333
01:07:50,908 --> 01:07:53,200
something. 
And you know, to be like fully 

1334
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:55,100
up front here. 
I was also chasing that story as

1335
01:07:55,100 --> 01:07:57,300
well and also heard that Google 
was concerned about it. 

1336
01:07:57,308 --> 01:07:59,500
I also think, you know, 
companies can respond to 

1337
01:07:59,500 --> 01:08:01,800
external stimuli as well when 
they see other people saying 

1338
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:03,600
shit employees were like what do
we do? 

1339
01:08:03,900 --> 01:08:05,800
When you start asking questions?
Then leaders respond to what 

1340
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:07,800
their employees are a 
skandagupta companies big as 

1341
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:09,800
Google. 
I was spect. 

1342
01:08:09,900 --> 01:08:12,000
If you structure it while you 
have one team that thinks one 

1343
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:13,900
way and one thing at the other 
and you just sort of like, I 

1344
01:08:13,908 --> 01:08:16,500
don't know, both both pursue 
your strategies and then we'll 

1345
01:08:16,508 --> 01:08:19,500
decide at the end. 
Yeah, but I will say I'm more 

1346
01:08:19,500 --> 01:08:23,100
excited to see this whole era of
AI Investments then I was about 

1347
01:08:23,100 --> 01:08:25,600
crypto. 
Yeah I think it's way it's way 

1348
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:27,800
more meaningful for Marc 
Andreessen would say it's 

1349
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:31,899
because crypto is fundamentally 
like pro leftist pro sensors. 

1350
01:08:31,899 --> 01:08:35,200
Sorry aai is pro left. 
Is pro censorship. 

1351
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:38,899
Whereas crypto was no fraud 
libertarian decentralisation, 

1352
01:08:38,899 --> 01:08:42,700
you know, like the ideology of 
AI is sort of more aligned with 

1353
01:08:42,700 --> 01:08:45,600
like we're not going to have to 
work in an ER like these. 

1354
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:48,100
Yeah, that people that it's 
fucking people. 

1355
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:51,300
I think that the AI story is 
fine. 

1356
01:08:51,500 --> 01:08:53,399
One that's similar to 
self-driving and that there will

1357
01:08:53,399 --> 01:08:55,800
be a lot of interesting utility 
there, but it just won't be the 

1358
01:08:55,800 --> 01:09:00,399
things that we predicted based 
on things that VC's told us 

1359
01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:03,100
based on the narrative, they had
to create in order to raise 

1360
01:09:03,100 --> 01:09:04,800
money. 
Yeah. 

1361
01:09:05,100 --> 01:09:07,300
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Maybe that could be like, the 

1362
01:09:07,300 --> 01:09:11,500
one thing people can learn from 
not this show but, you know, the

1363
01:09:11,500 --> 01:09:13,500
kind of things that we talked 
about, we were all on the show, 

1364
01:09:13,500 --> 01:09:16,399
was that think about the 
motivations that people have for

1365
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:20,200
saying the things that they say,
and that includes the media, if 

1366
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,800
they write you, You know, the 
motivations that we have for 

1367
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:25,899
writing a certain story reveals 
a lot about the incentive 

1368
01:09:25,899 --> 01:09:28,300
structure of the companies we 
work for and also the sources 

1369
01:09:28,300 --> 01:09:33,000
that we have and yeah, yeah, and
that hopefully can help people 

1370
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:35,200
understand better the reasons 
they hate us. 

1371
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:37,700
If they do. 
Well, I think we all understand 

1372
01:09:37,700 --> 01:09:41,600
the reasons why people are down 
on Eric right now, based on this

1373
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:44,500
Twitter trauma because I said 
they should go fuck. 

1374
01:09:44,500 --> 01:09:50,300
Yeah, I mean I think that, you 
know, I, you know, I didn't 

1375
01:09:50,300 --> 01:09:55,000
conflict the Escalade Shin that 
was maybe my tactical I wasn't 

1376
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,800
trying to deescalate. 
This is this is my Eric are so 

1377
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:02,200
different as people. 
Well, yeah, that was funny too 

1378
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,100
because you saw yourself as like
the scold during the Jason 

1379
01:10:05,100 --> 01:10:07,000
calacanis show. 
And I was like, you're pretty 

1380
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,400
restrains during most of that 
stuff. 

1381
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:14,200
Yeah, I mean like for me, I have
to be in my world. 

1382
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,800
I was being a real dick, okay. 
It was trying to fact-check him.

1383
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:19,800
Someone really do that. 
Not worth it. 

1384
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:21,500
Not worth. 
It was funny. 

1385
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:25,200
It was funny to during the AGM 
episode when he was like, it 

1386
01:10:25,208 --> 01:10:27,100
seems like we have this 
interesting trip to going here 

1387
01:10:27,100 --> 01:10:28,100
of Left, Right? 
And Center. 

1388
01:10:28,100 --> 01:10:29,700
Where like I'm right, where's 
the left? 

1389
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:31,600
And I'm like, no. 
I forgot to say this or the 

1390
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:33,900
episode, I have no political 
ideology here. 

1391
01:10:33,900 --> 01:10:37,200
I just gravitate towards which 
argument is the most cynical so 

1392
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:41,800
yeah that's my ball around the 
place Su with that sit with that

1393
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:47,400
for a while. 
Observation have no core I have 

1394
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:50,300
nothing. 
Well Merry Christmas that I mean

1395
01:10:50,700 --> 01:10:55,000
they that's exactly yeah yeah 
well I don't know. 

1396
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,300
I mean I hope everyone that's 
listening has enjoyed and it's 

1397
01:10:58,300 --> 01:11:00,700
learned things over the last 18 
months that we've done. 

1398
01:11:00,900 --> 01:11:05,100
The show it will continue to 
exist in some form with Eric and

1399
01:11:05,100 --> 01:11:08,000
occasionally Katie. 
And hopefully with the same 

1400
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:09,800
name. 
I like dead cat. 

1401
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:13,100
I mean, I think that cat back 
from the grave is a perfectly 

1402
01:11:13,100 --> 01:11:15,100
good name? 
Yeah, that's good. 

1403
01:11:15,100 --> 01:11:17,600
Very nice. 
I might just call it dead cat 

1404
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:24,600
with their newcomer, really 
leaving the stakes here. 

1405
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:26,000
What you're getting with the 
show? 

1406
01:11:26,500 --> 01:11:28,200
I do you think you can be a 
little confusing? 

1407
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:32,000
Like we we, you know it whenever
you get New people a listeners. 

1408
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:35,000
They don't necessarily have the 
contacts and where if they live 

1409
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:39,400
if this is their first episode 
God help them you know the show 

1410
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:41,800
going forward. 
Look we didn't even introduce 

1411
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,900
Tom at all arkadia, doesn't 
matter because we're leaving. 

1412
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:49,500
Why introduce people closer to 
say I write like a newsletter. 

1413
01:11:49,500 --> 01:11:51,500
I'm like, I don't know if they 
can't figure that out. 

1414
01:11:51,700 --> 01:11:54,000
They're not going to make it 
through this episode. 

1415
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,100
You know. 
Well, you know we we can end on 

1416
01:11:56,100 --> 01:11:59,200
this point because we did talk 
earlier in jest about, you know,

1417
01:11:59,500 --> 01:12:02,800
friendships and relationships. 
Being, you know, transactional 

1418
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:06,000
as funneled through a podcast. 
But the one thing that I enjoyed

1419
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,100
more than anything with this 
show is I think we've talked 

1420
01:12:09,100 --> 01:12:12,900
more, you know, person to person
and we had probably since we all

1421
01:12:12,900 --> 01:12:16,000
lived in San Francisco together 
and you know, would hang out 

1422
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:21,100
over the weekends. 
Yeah, I'm I'm urges saccharin 

1423
01:12:21,100 --> 01:12:23,900
Tom. 
Oh my God, Tom agree with you, 

1424
01:12:23,900 --> 01:12:26,900
that has been very lovely. 
It has been very nice. 

1425
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:32,200
I'm sad that the Wall Street 
Journal has decided Friendship 

1426
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:35,200
breakup family, at least make it
Rupert. 

1427
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:38,900
Murdock, Murdock told, you have 
to break up with your friend. 

1428
01:12:38,900 --> 01:12:48,600
This is a gang initiation. 
Well, no, I, I don't know, I 

1429
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:50,200
don't know how to end on 
anything. 

1430
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:55,600
Maybe we can just record our own
episodes like never get sort of 

1431
01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:59,500
for ourselves and then one day, 
you know, well the unreleased 

1432
01:12:59,500 --> 01:13:01,100
release the archives. 
Yeah. 

1433
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:04,600
Well, it was very good. 
Seeing you guys in 2022. 

1434
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:09,100
I'm hoping 2023 is a little 
better and that will see what 

1435
01:13:09,100 --> 01:13:11,200
other in person soon. 
Be great. 

1436
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:13,500
I love you guys. 
Love you too. 

1437
01:13:13,900 --> 01:13:15,300
Love you too. 
All right. 

1438
01:13:15,300 --> 01:13:16,700
All right. 
He's having a meeting here. 

1439
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:17,600
All right. 
Bye. 

1440
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:19,600
I think that was very nice and a
good. 

1441
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:30,300
Bye 
good. 

1442
01:13:30,300 --> 01:13:31,400
Bye. 
Goodbye. 

1443
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,400
Goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1444
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:31,400
Goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1445
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,400
Goodbye. 
Goodbye, goodbye. 

1446
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:33,800
Goodbye.