1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,120 Welcome back to Dead Cat this week. 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Oh wait, no, it's the newcomer podcast. 3 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:06,520 You know, when you say dead cat, it's very triggering for me 4 00:00:06,520 --> 00:00:09,800 because that's peak pandemic. This was our only socializing 5 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,520 basically. If people remember a lot of I'm 6 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,600 assuming newcomer subscribers are too young to remember the 7 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,480 pandemic, but this was the only way that people knew how to 8 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,480 socialize was via podcasts. These were the clubhouse days we 9 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,080 had. We had a beautiful, you know, 10 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,160 dead cat or, you know, it's a cartoon cat. 11 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,520 You got you got a guy from fiber to draw that for us. 12 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,000 Exactly. The on demand economy was 13 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,400 thriving of people making podcast logos. 14 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,120 And and it was a reference to private text messages between 15 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:42,240 Marc Andreessen, Mark Zuckerberg using some spy craft, not to 16 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,560 dead cat bounce as many people believe. 17 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,480 You're a start up founder. Finding product market fit is 18 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:50,600 probably your number one priority. 19 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,200 But to land bigger customers you also need security compliance 20 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,760 and obtaining your SoC 2 or ISO 27. 21 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,920 OO One certification can open those big doors, but they take 22 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,280 time and energy pulling you away from building and shipping. 23 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,480 That's where Vanta comes in. 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We also believe that the media 47 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,120 is fallible at times and by and large probably has more of an 48 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,200 anti tech bias than a lot of people in the media are willing 49 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,840 to accept. That was the strong stance that 50 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,680 we took. You know, you got to remember 51 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,600 basically all people were doing on Twitter, at least our version 52 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,120 of Twitter was just bitching about the media, right? 53 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,880 It was just every VC saying, you know, Balaji was like, never 54 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,720 talk to these people. These people are your enemy. 55 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,200 They have no, they, they're barely worth your time, like in 56 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,080 the real world, let alone, you know, as a business person. 57 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,360 And there were all these fights, right? 58 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,400 Like they were just just constant back and forth. 59 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,160 Well, that's also always like, so rich just because, like, Marc 60 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,760 Andreessen famously is Kara Swisher's source back in the 61 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:06,320 day. So like, it was such a flip. 62 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,600 But of course, that was the posture back then. 63 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,520 So anyway, yeah, this is exactly what we agonized with. 64 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,200 We beat the cat dead. We were like, we talked about it 65 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,120 exhaustively and then we moved on with our life. 66 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,600 Newcomer became sort of for a while more of a interview show. 67 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,480 Now we're on the news, though. We we have the freedom to have 68 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,760 interviews. And now Tom's here and so we are 69 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,200 about to opine on media, but it's in the news. 70 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,480 The main story, of course, we're referring to Andreessen 71 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,960 Horowitz, is hiring Eric Torenberg's Turpentine. 72 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:35,840 Yeah. So Eric Torenberg, you know, 73 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:41,440 early employee at product time, Co founder of village global on 74 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,880 deck and then he had this company turpentine. 75 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:48,080 It was in some ways running, you know, Lenny Rojski, he has this 76 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,960 product newsletter and I think Eric in some ways was like, man, 77 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,680 we should do a category newsletter for everything and 78 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:55,880 all in is pretty successful. I should have an all in style 79 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,200 podcast and like, in some ways, just like, OK, let's let's see 80 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,400 if we can be mercenaries about building a tech media company. 81 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,040 I think it was he hasn't disclosed the financials, unlike 82 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,960 the this company here. So I don't know exactly how it 83 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,840 did it. And you know, I think sure, 84 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,560 they're bringing in the turpentine stuff and I think 85 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,960 that gives them a running start. But I think the key here is that 86 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:19,279 Eric's becoming a general partner at the firm and is going 87 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,640 to sort of help them continue to have sort of their media 88 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,560 ambitions. That's happening in the context 89 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,800 of the Sons of Founders Fund have just completely blown up 90 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,920 with our competitor podcast, TPPN Technology Brothers. 91 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,760 We're talking about TBPN, the three hour Daily Show. 92 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,560 Co hosted by uh, Jordy Hayes and John Coogan. 93 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,960 John Coogan was founders fund entrepreneur in residence for a 94 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,600 really long time. So they're, you know, connected 95 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,560 to founders fund. I mean, but they're not like 96 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,240 officially run out of founders fund, but they have all these 97 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,480 ties, right? So it's kind of like 98 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,400 illustrative of how Founders Fund approaches media, right? 99 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,560 I know I I guess my first just just to sort of take one step 100 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,200 away from the facts before we give our hot, hot takes. 101 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,200 I think founders Fund had knows that it's a little cooler not to 102 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,720 be so corpo. You know, it's like pirate wires 103 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,800 and TBPN. They're not really founders fund 104 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,120 things. Obviously having founders fund 105 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,720 people out and about, you know, Mike Solana, who runs pirate 106 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,280 wires is the chief marketing officer of founders funds. 107 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:27,960 So obviously there is marketing, but he's not going to do 108 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,600 something that's so terrible here to founders fund. 109 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,560 Founders funds an investor, but the these shows sort of stand on 110 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,000 their own. And I think they're also sort of 111 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,640 spicier than the Andreessen Horowitz portfolio outside of 112 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,160 Marc Andreessen, the man who of course is spicy. 113 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,800 But I, I am not convinced that the rest of Andreessen Horowitz 114 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,400 has been able to be spicy. So you've got sort of founders 115 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,720 fun succeeding without plastering their brand on it. 116 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,360 Andreessen Horowitz, you know, Marc Andreessen was on Joe 117 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:00,720 Rogan. Like you can't argue with that. 118 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,520 And certainly they have top podcasts. 119 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,440 I'm sure they have way, way, way more distribution than us on 120 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,200 their podcasts. And like they have, you know 121 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,480 what, hundreds of thousands of Twitter followers. 122 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,880 So they, they definitely have a media presence, but they failed 123 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,120 to build future their media company. 124 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,120 And it seems like they've never really satisfied the ambitions 125 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,960 of being a true a true media company. 126 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,240 Why do you think that is? That you can have a successful 127 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,160 podcast or whatever, get a decent audience for it that 128 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,440 justifies it, it's existence. But every time you try to build 129 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,560 some sort of media vertical like future or whatever, that never 130 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:37,600 takes off. Like why? 131 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,600 Why is a podcast something that gets people, but text tends to 132 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,120 just be very limited? I don't have an answer for that. 133 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,680 I just think it's funny. I think it's more that 134 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,120 Andreessen is flowing from the ambition to influence. 135 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,880 Like they're seeing, oh man, like powerful people influenced 136 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,920 through the media and like we should build our own, hire 137 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,400 people go figure it out. Whereas I think like Mike Solana 138 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,800 at Higher Wires who strenuously disagree with on some things, 139 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,520 he's like got a writer's spirit. He has things to say. 140 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,240 He's too angry and he needs to get it out in print somewhere. 141 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,400 You know, he, I feel like he has things to say. 142 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,960 And I think the TBPN guys, they're funny and like they have 143 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,880 a sort of point of view. And so I do think it's the it's 144 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:23,640 the humanities person in all of us. 145 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,480 It's like you got to start with like the desire to really have 146 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,200 something to say in a new format and a style. 147 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,120 And so I think they've found people for the podcast and some 148 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,120 of their partners are great communicators. 149 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,520 But then I think future and some of these other ambitions start 150 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,840 with we need to be a media company without like the sort of 151 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,040 fire behind it. Yeah, I guess you don't really 152 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,760 have an audience built into it. It's just sort of an expectation 153 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,520 that if you start writing the articles with the bent that you 154 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,040 think people want, they'll just show up, which is anyone who's 155 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,280 run a media company would know. It's not really the way it 156 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,280 happens. I always talk about newcomer. 157 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,800 It's like, I don't know, we chase the stories that are fun 158 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:01,480 to us. Like, you know, I don't, I don't 159 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,560 know some of the you can be too intentional with media in my 160 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,760 point of view. Part of what makes the TBBN part 161 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,120 fun is that it is it feels a little bit disconnected and it 162 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,080 has cool vibes. They're reclaiming tech bro, 163 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:15,360 right? And they're like fun, 164 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,160 interesting guys to watch and engage with. 165 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,800 So in your conception of all of this, like is like the narrative 166 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,120 control and the ability to like talk about things in a fun, cool 167 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,440 way without it seeming like VC media, like the business 168 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,800 reporter in me is like, does that actually help your fund? 169 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,159 I assume it doesn't like a soft power way, but like, where's the 170 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:36,679 play here other than just being like, you know, getting the 171 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:37,960 attention out, being interesting? 172 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,480 Like seems like does it really, you know, come back to help 173 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,200 founders fund it seems like Andreessen. 174 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,000 It's kind of not really doing anything other than, you know, 175 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,400 Mark sweater presence. Yeah, I think just being out 176 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,920 there in people's minds is like good for founders fund because 177 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,800 they have to find the next founder and being legitimately 178 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:59,240 sort of cool, as reluctant as I am to say it helps them sort of 179 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,120 get deal flow and like is useful. 180 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:07,320 I do think the TBPN guys are smart in that, like they're 181 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,880 trying to build a show. I think it's sort of like they 182 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,960 could get bought by CNBC. I talked to John Coogan this 183 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,600 week, and it's not like he's like, yeah, we're building a 184 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:16,920 platform. It's like, no, we're building a 185 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,960 good media show, he jokes. But it's sincere that it's 186 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,320 corporate media. It's like they have a bunch of 187 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,240 ads plastered all over the thing. 188 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,600 They're like for them. I think one of the strengths and 189 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,320 maybe what could be lasting for like ATPBN is they're not 190 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,560 explicitly political. Like all of this story you're 191 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:34,440 talking, we're talking about like posturing and that kind of 192 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:35,720 thing. They don't really do that. 193 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,160 They have their sort of like bro Y outward aesthetic, but much 194 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,920 less so than pirate wires. Are they, like, jumping into the 195 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:43,480 political foray? They're talking about business, 196 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,640 yeah. The only political thing is just 197 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,160 that it's sort of this like the bro that you couldn't be 198 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,480 anymore. But besides that, besides the 199 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,040 stylings, I agree it's very like down to business talking about 200 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,280 companies. Well, of course, like a big 201 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,520 theme of the whole dead cat era of your of your fame was that 202 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,960 like tech could go direct and cut out the media and and 203 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,520 address their audience in a way that like. 204 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:05,520 Right. I was terrified. 205 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,760 I I went on a clubhouse. I was like, Marc Andreessen 206 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,360 needs to answer questions about his Trump support in front of 207 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,120 the New York Times. Yeah, it was it was an 208 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,760 interesting moment, Tom. I'll you take it first. 209 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,960 Where are we on Go Direct? It's not happening. 210 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:23,560 It's it's your your take is that they have not failed to to Yeah. 211 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,720 They clearly, they clearly failed and I know this because 212 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,840 when I announced that I was working for for newcomer now and 213 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,320 I had an e-mail address, my in blocks got flooded with with 214 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,360 with PR people. They're reaching out to me, 215 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,320 which in a world of going direct, I understand you're 216 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,760 you're not legacy. So maybe that was partly the 217 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,320 reason why they're that. Yeah, exactly. 218 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,400 Read the market. It's like, it's like they want 219 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,360 the people to the media to do the work and people who know how 220 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,240 to write to produce it, but they just want a new. 221 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,200 They want new just start again like new brands. 222 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:54,960 I, I never understood the Go direct thing. 223 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,760 Like it, It always confused me because ultimately, what did it 224 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:58,840 mean? Did it mean you don't want to 225 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,000 announce your, your, your next fundraise in TechCrunch or or 226 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,240 the New York Times or Wall Street Journal or Bloomberg? 227 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,040 OK, three of those publications wouldn't write about it anyway. 228 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,720 Now, did it? Did it mean like, if your 229 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,200 company had a controversy and reporters were writing about it, 230 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,000 that you shouldn't ever deal with the media? 231 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,520 You should never answer questions to them? 232 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,160 OK, fine, you don't have to do it. 233 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,600 But that also assumes that like, if you don't talk to people, 234 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,320 they won't. If you don't talk to the media, 235 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,600 the article won't exist, which obviously it will. 236 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,040 Like, you know, you need to have like fucking object permanence 237 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,720 to recognize that like people exist outside of your wanting to 238 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,840 talk to them. And so I never understood what 239 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:38,160 the end state of it was. Was it? 240 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,320 Was it about killing the New York Times altogether? 241 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,360 All. Right here here's here's my 242 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,240 view, which I think touches on what you're saying. 243 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,160 Godirect was framed as a binary. Either you're talking to the 244 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,480 media or you're talking to tech. Obviously in the real world, 245 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,000 that's not how it plays out. Things are a spectrum of and we 246 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,320 could imagine a spectrum of unfriendly detect to friendly 247 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,080 detect. And part of what happened within 248 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,280 the media is the friendly detect sort of disappeared, right? 249 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,440 The, I don't know, Fast Company ink style. 250 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,040 Oh my God, you're an amazing company. 251 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:13,240 Those people all suddenly became the like Facebook's the devil. 252 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,720 And so the friendliest people became the most hostile. 253 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:18,440 And so the media was out of whack. 254 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,400 I think we acknowledged that back in the dead cat days. 255 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,080 And so tech started creating these go direct things, many of 256 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:30,280 them far, far too positive ever to build or sustain an audience 257 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,520 because at the end of the day, media is dependent on what 258 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,120 consumers want. And so now what was the go 259 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,680 direct period have become much more sophisticated and are are 260 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:43,160 delivering a range of content. You've got pyro wires who has 261 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,920 its enemies, right, which the traditional like PR go direct 262 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,560 set couldn't deliver right. The you needed some sort of foil 263 00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:54,040 and antagonist, which pyro wires has you guys TVPN, which is like 264 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,320 literally sort of embracing the aesthetics of like CNBC and TV 265 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,600 news. And so I think that spectrum is 266 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,360 going to totally reemerge, and the distinction will soon be 267 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,480 meaningless. I think on the Go Direct side, 268 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,480 you have all these people who are still, you know, I think 269 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,200 John said it to me this week. They're like, I'm not a 270 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:14,840 journalist. And I'm like, I don't know what 271 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,760 that means. Like, obviously journalists 272 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,760 themselves have a range of expectations for what you have 273 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,800 to do. And I think the Go Direct crowd 274 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,160 still wants, like, none of the ethical burden of journalism 275 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,240 while, you know, delivering it. And I think what's really going 276 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,720 to happen is it's we're going to go back to a period where we're 277 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,920 all judged against the expectations and brand that we 278 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,320 built for ourselves. There isn't going to be this 279 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,040 like, binary switch of, like, journalists. 280 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,000 People can shit on me for not doing enough diligence. 281 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,280 And like, I'm just an influencer and I can be as like, lazy as I 282 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,640 want to. I don't know, Joe Rogan, you 283 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,680 have a huge audience and you're driving the culture. 284 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:54,840 You interviewed the president, like what you say matters, and 285 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,400 we're seeing that emerge. And so I think on the media 286 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,520 side, you're not going to get this special treatment anymore. 287 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,120 And then on the go direct side, you're not going to be able to 288 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,120 be like, who me? I'm just like an idiot. 289 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,840 Like you're like, you have an audience. 290 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,480 And that's that's what makes you morally culpable for what you 291 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,320 say. Also, the bigger you get, the 292 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,800 more people are going to view you in the same sphere as the 293 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,760 bigger media companies. Like I had a source of mine the 294 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:22,080 other day was telling me that he wanted to, he was trying to get 295 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,800 me to help him like an editorial that he had. 296 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,400 And he was like, I, you know, I was going to run it in pirate 297 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,200 wires. But they had, I guess they had 298 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,960 some sort of executive leave or someone and, and they're not 299 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,640 able to publish as much as they were able to. 300 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,560 He's like, oh, can you help me get this into the Wall Street 301 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,440 Journal, the Washington Post? And, and it's like, and like 302 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,760 one, No, like I can't, it's really hard to, you know, I 303 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,680 never dealt with the editorial side, but it's like the fact 304 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,160 that you consider it like one or the other means that like the, 305 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,760 the lines are already blurred. So like the, the, the, the in, 306 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,680 in its success supposedly of go direct. 307 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,560 You've basically become to a degree, the thing that you 308 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:55,560 hated. And we're rebelling. 309 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,280 Against exactly. And they're learning all the 310 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:58,560 problems. You talk to them, you're like, 311 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,720 Oh yeah, like media is really hard. 312 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,400 These tech people don't get it. You have to like you're only as 313 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,800 good as your last story. Like it's something we've been 314 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,040 yelling out for years. Like tech's all about 315 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,480 solutionism. It's like do the thing, realize 316 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,640 what the trade-offs are and why people are doing what they're 317 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,080 doing and like stop, stop whining, you know, do it. 318 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,720 So I'm happy that. Why do you think we're such like 319 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,400 negative pieces of shit? It's because our jobs are bad 320 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,880 and and we have to deal with all this stuff like you. 321 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,160 You think you're happy now because you're going direct. 322 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:28,440 You're just going to become like us. 323 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,200 There's, there's, there's going to be no. 324 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,320 Distinction and journalists are part of the problem in that they 325 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:34,800 hold on to the distinction, right? 326 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,080 In some ways they're enabling the go direct crowd to act 327 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,960 differently by saying journalists, we behave this way, 328 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,680 you behave that way. And I, I think I've been early 329 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,360 on the like collapse the distinction quickly so that 330 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,400 there's equal sort of responsibility on both ends or 331 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,680 at least relative to audience and relative to brand. 332 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,840 I mean, the only other thing I would say on this is that what 333 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,400 people often overlook is like, is your shit good? 334 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,000 Is it an entertaining product? Like that's all it comes down 335 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,960 to. Like I know and it's I'm happy 336 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,040 to always, you know, shit on the all in guys. 337 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,440 They have a good show. It's an entertaining show. 338 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,280 They have like a dynamic that appeals to people that makes for 339 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,080 compelling, you know, listening or consumption or video or 340 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:19,960 whatever. And it's like, if you don't have 341 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,640 a fundamentally good product, doesn't matter how much 342 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:26,240 philosophy behind the changing tides of media you're basing 343 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,600 this on, if it's not interesting, no one's going to 344 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:29,560 care. That's it. 345 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,200 It's it's like a fairly, I mean, the nice thing about media, 346 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,640 aside from the fact that, you know, the business model is 347 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,880 broken, is that like the audience is often pretty 348 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,720 dependent on whether you day in, day out put out a compelling 349 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,600 product. And a lot of these things just 350 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,920 weren't good. All In is a good show. 351 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:45,240 I'm sorry to say it. It is a good. 352 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,240 Show arguing for capitalism. I mean part of what happened 353 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,840 with media is that the reporters got very disconnected from the 354 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,400 customer right. I think one thing that newcomer 355 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:59,120 is a response to is that yeah, we are responsive to our segment 356 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:00,680 of readers. Now we found the segment of 357 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,240 readers we like right If you're going to unsubscribe because I 358 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,599 shit on Trump or whatever you're a lost cause. 359 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:09,560 So we we still have a segment but like I think, you know when 360 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,280 I was at Bloomberg and certainly many other Bloomberg reporters 361 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,480 are very disconnected from which stories are driving like the 362 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,079 bottom line. And so building media businesses 363 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:22,319 that are more responsive to customers, you know, reflect the 364 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:26,319 culture and are more responsive to to the mood for good and bad. 365 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaking of griffs from one to another, you know, we talked 366 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,400 about the, the VC media grift, but I think there's a, there's a 367 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,520 broader, I would say griffs are in vogue right now. 368 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,680 Griffs are in, you know, from the top down. 369 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,240 I think we're seeing a lot of a lot of discussion over how we 370 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,360 can take advantage of the moment and and, you know, fill our own 371 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:47,880 bag while the gettings are good. There's a point we've been 372 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,120 hitting over and over again in this newsletter when we do talk 373 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:54,560 about politics, which is that ultimately the Trump presidency 374 00:17:54,560 --> 00:18:00,480 and attitude towards grift and deal making in corrupt ways is 375 00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:04,000 is bad for business and all of the Silicon Valley people who 376 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,560 support him and have viewed it, you know, oh, this will be 377 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,680 favorable and regulation. To me, it's not favorable if he 378 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,320 makes a mockery of what your business is doing. 379 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,480 The Trump meme coin dinner that was announced this week just 380 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,120 kind of encapsulated this, right? 381 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:24,240 Because basically the top 220 Trump coin holders will get like 382 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,040 a private dinner with the president. 383 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,360 Like that is just such an example of how crypto for all 384 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:32,520 the VCs I talked who pitched me on the legitimate crypto 385 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,320 industries that they are building is just totally thrown 386 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,200 out the window by their supposed biggest booster and just like 387 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,640 what is clearly of like influence scheme. 388 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,840 You were talking to a lot of crypto people, ones who I assume 389 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,360 are happy that Trump is in office and being one of the 390 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:51,640 biggest boosters of this, you know, of, of, of cryptocurrency 391 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,000 in the blockchain in history. Are they on board and described 392 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,360 as legitimate, the meme coin? I mean, do they view that as 393 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:02,200 like part of the same positive uplift in the economy and 394 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,480 transformation or this is like they're trying to push that off 395 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,120 to the side? I would say well within the like 396 00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:10,160 coin holder people, I'm sure people who are just, you know, 397 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,440 like separate from the founders are excited about this in the 398 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,880 crypto ecosystem because they can make a buck off of it. 399 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,200 But like the crypto investors I've talked to, you and founders 400 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,920 that I've talked to who are happy about cutting regulations, 401 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,840 but not so happy about the optics of everything going down, 402 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,560 they recognize that the grifty stuff hurts their business. 403 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,400 So they've actually expressed to me like, no, this is like a bad 404 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:33,960 call. We don't think that this like 405 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:35,920 helps the crypto industry at all. 406 00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:39,400 It just seems like it's a pipeline to pay off Trump and 407 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,880 get close to him. And so even the crypto investors 408 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,520 I've talked to know that this seems like it will not help them 409 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,800 in the end. And yet people I like the end, 410 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,240 you know, we talked about, you know, all of the close to Trump 411 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,000 people, the end reasons of the world like are still sticking 412 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,600 with with it for now, and I just don't see why this is seeming 413 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,000 crypto. And in some ways, the Silicon 414 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,720 Valley view of business has always been, unfortunately, a 415 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,680 story of better angels, you know, build, grow, you know, do 416 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,360 new things, create and on the other hand, sort of grift and 417 00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:13,960 make sort of momentum trades, right? 418 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,080 I mean, you look at Andreessen Horowitz, right? 419 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,160 Marc Andreessen is now one of his many famous sayings is it's 420 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,760 time to build an essay about just America. 421 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,480 We need to do a lot of things. Build a lot of things that's 422 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,680 that's supposed to be the message underpinning the firm. 423 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,360 You know, they've got a very successful crypto fund. 424 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,360 But my sense is a lot of those investments, you know, we're 425 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:36,240 sort of flips, You know, you make a bunch of money on 426 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,800 Filecoin. Obviously Coinbase, you know, is 427 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,840 a key investment. And that is a real company, 428 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,640 though, a company largely built on speculation of crypto assets. 429 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,160 But like a lot of the building for crypto is still to come and 430 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,920 a lot of the money made has been on sort of speculation and 431 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,760 flipping and getting out at the right time. 432 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,560 I mean, you see a lot of VCs making money on Solana. 433 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,080 But anyway, yeah, the the the the ideal of Silicon Valley is 434 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,080 this sort of building and creation. 435 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,040 And the more that front and center in the American 436 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,400 psychology is thanks to our president that the way to make 437 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,360 money is grifting and to selling tokens that's going to every 438 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,600 entrepreneur is going to be like, well, I guess the mood at 439 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,000 the moment is get rich quick, not build for the long term. 440 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,200 But that's always one of the greatest gifts about Trump is 441 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,480 that he has no subtext. And so when you present him with 442 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,440 something like a meme coin, you can construct whatever 443 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,680 architecture of like transformation of currency and, 444 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,880 and, you know, the blockchain and the value it has. 445 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,960 But in his eyes and maybe the truth behind it all is like, oh, 446 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,920 this is a flip, right? This is like, oh, so you 447 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,480 basically just want me to like pump this shit up? 448 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,560 At least we're not getting bullshitted anymore is your 449 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:44,480 point? Like it like. 450 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,240 He's like crypto, I get it. I get what you guys are into 451 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:48,880 here. Sure. 452 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,520 I'm I'm totally down to just pump this thing up and flip it 453 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,720 and, you know, see if a couple of people can make money, myself 454 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,480 included on it. This is Trump stakes. 455 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,880 This is Trump University. Like he, he just manages to cut 456 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,920 through everything to make it at its most basic fundamental level 457 00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:04,920 that I'm assuming is very frustrating to the crypto people 458 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:06,720 because they're like, no, no, dude, this is about a 459 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,280 revolution. This is not a flip. 460 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,200 This is not about just lining my pockets. 461 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,520 This is about a whole new, you know, wholesale change. 462 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,360 He just kind of is like, don't fucking say that out loud dude. 463 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,360 Like we all know what's going on here. 464 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:18,800 You don't have to just make it that apparent. 465 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,160 Don't make this a QVC, you know, commercial. 466 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,160 Just thinking back even to the tariffs, right, like he, all of 467 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,480 his advisors were trying to say like, no, this is some genius 468 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,400 strategy of negotiation. And the first reason he backed 469 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,960 off at all was that he was like, well, the markets got a little 470 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,880 out of whack. So we're toning it back. 471 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,000 Like he's always been very direct about what motivates him 472 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,480 and where things are going. But I just don't think that all 473 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,880 of this is in any way good for the business community that has 474 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,400 attached themselves to him. And the fact the fact that it's 475 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,280 still hanging on like is a little absurd to me. 476 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:50,560 And we'll see how long they stay. 477 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,000 I don't know. At the end of the day, American 478 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:59,000 culture needs to be and can be more than the culture set by the 479 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,640 president. I mean, this is supposed to be 480 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,640 the view of the Republicans, you know, the small government 481 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,280 party. And so I think at this time, 482 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,440 more than ever, we have the obligation not to let Trump 483 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,600 corrupt business in America and sort of to continue to build 484 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,360 real, meaningful businesses even as we're seeing this messaging 485 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:23,840 that you could try to get rich quick and the people at the top 486 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,840 are doing it. But certainly Trump isn't making 487 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,560 it easier to keep great entrepreneurs focused on real, 488 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,560 sustainable businesses like they should be. 489 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,800 And it seems like every time he backs off most of his most 490 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,280 insane policies, it's because some senior person in the 491 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,480 traditional business world has a meeting with him in which he's 492 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,160 like, yeah, you got to cut this shit out. 493 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,720 So it's like Jamie Dimon goes to the White House. 494 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,880 Yeah, exactly. Where's Jamie Dimon? 495 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,120 Be like, yeah, we all gripped a little bit like, OK, you do 496 00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:55,640 some, you know, short trades or whatever, but like, you can't do 497 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,120 it like this, man. Right, right. 498 00:23:58,120 --> 00:23:59,480 Yeah. So it's Jamie Dimon coming in 499 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,120 there and be like, yeah, cut this shit out. 500 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,320 Like you're you were destroying the S&P and then now with the 501 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,800 China tariffs probably backing down. 502 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,080 It's because like Walmart and Target CEOs basically came into 503 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:11,360 the the Oval Office and we're just like, yeah, that's where we 504 00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:13,240 get all of our stuff, man. You're not going to be able to 505 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,760 charge 145% tariffs on on the place that makes all these 506 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,360 things like. Yeah, yeah. 507 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:19,840 All right. All right, we'll see you guys 508 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:20,200 next week.