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Welcome. 
Hey, it's our newcomer here with

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dead cat. 
Katie's laughing at me. 

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She's here Tom's here. 
We have our friend Deepa 

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longtime friend from The Wall 
Street Journal, who's been 

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involved in the Facebook files. 
Reporting is covered Facebook 

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forever. 
Iran has been listening to this 

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podcast. 
I think with some irritation and

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the goal of this podcast, in my 
mind is to solve the Facebook 

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issue. 
I mean, I I sort of I didn't 

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want to do it. 
I thought it to be like, sorry 

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for issue with us. 
This is like a Marc Maron 

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podcast because I thought it, I 
thought it was more of a therapy

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session my cell. 
We good. 

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Are we good deeper? 
Are we good? 

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I mean, I think there's been so 
much Facebook coverage that. 

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Yeah, it's a fast. 
Lady media story also which is 

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why we've talked about it and 
there's a certain like oh my 

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God, is this story? 
Just going to go on forever when

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at the same time it feels like 
nothing's changed. 

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So I want to try and structure 
this a little because it does 

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feel like a lot and deeper. 
You're the expert here, I guess 

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it's to help organize it I think
a good starting point would just

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be like in your mind if you had 
to give us two or three of the 

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core like Facebook, open 
threads. 

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Like if we have all this report,
Eating obviously, you had a 

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bunch of different topics in the
Facebook files. 

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If you're like, oh, the real 
story lines about Facebook if 

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you had to narrow down just so 
we can focus around something. 

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Start off with. 
What would you say are like the 

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key open threads? 
I mean, okay. 

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They're all going to be kind of 
obvious, because this cover this

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company's been covered so 
aggressively and for so many 

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years. 
But like I think if I'm thinking

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about different storylines for 
Facebook, that I find the most 

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interesting. 
Most important one. 

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It's like the consolidation of 
Power by Mark. 

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This is a company that is always
had Mark Zuckerberg at its 

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center, right? 
I mean like like shareholder, 

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he's all the voting power, use a
chairman, he's a CEO. 

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He's, the founder is because 
those cultural cachet and said 

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the company, but lately, like, 
if you look at all these 

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different external bodies that 
are supposed to check the 

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company if they don't really do 
much of what the oversight board

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was likely lied to right in the 
process of its creation. 

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I haven't done anything. 
Have they publicly rebuked? 

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Mark. 
I don't know. 

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No, write the actual board was 
at one point. 

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It included people who disagreed
with Mark and wanted to push 

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back against him and then they 
got replaced last year, right? 

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And, and, you know, there's 
nothing that shareholders can 

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really do if you look at all 
shareholders, not named Mark 

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Zuckerberg, most of them are 
unhappy with the current 

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governance structure, but it 
doesn't matter because they're 

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not named Mark Zuckerberg, 
right? 

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And so I think there's That is a
threat. 

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I think a lot about. 
I think about the fact that like

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so much power is concentrated in
this one person and that's not 

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something you see in government,
like necessarily, you don't 

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necessarily you don't really see
that. 

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In other companies, I've covered
where it's like, literally one 

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person is making all these calls
and the name of this podcast, 

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obviously isn't right? 
Very episode of him. 

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Consolidating control. 
Would you relate the rise? 

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Of zuckuss emperor of Facebook 
to that moment that has become, 

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you know, eponymous with our 
show that he was able to create 

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this dual class structure that 
allowed him to. 

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Even if he was selling off his 
shares, maintain absolute voting

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control over things. 
I mean, was that like the 

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villainous turn in his 
leadership that brought him to 

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where things are today? 
I think it's one of the moments,

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right? 
I think there's a lot of 

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different periods in time where 
Mark, like collects more power. 

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I mean, like think like, I 
personally as a reporter when I 

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think, Worth going back to the 
early days where this share 

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structure was even decided, 
right? 

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Like this is like, you know, 
Sean Parker like trying to 

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convince Mark that this is that 
he needed to make sure he 

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retained as much power as 
possible. 

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Like I want, I think more. 
I'd love to know a little bit 

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more about those conversations 
and I'd love to know a little 

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bit more about like because that
to me, is starting moment where 

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he just starts to wield 
incredible. 

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Like he always had technical 
power like you always Has had 

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the control of Youth of the 
company but then like what you 

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seen in the last couple of years
is a willingness to exercise 

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that power. 
So before the 2016 election know

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Mark was the majority voting 
shareholder, right? 

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But it was the Sheryl Sandberg 
as his partner in crime and 

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right and she handled all the 
government Affairs and all the 

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politics and she and he, where 
is he, like really focused on 

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the technology and then that 
content that's completely 

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changed in the last few years, 
right? 

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And each Each one of these is a 
little Sway and that 

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conversation the dead pack. 
Conversation is one of them 

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because, you know, he's 
convincing me. 

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Marc Andreessen is so in his 
Corner, he's texting him in the 

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middle of a supposedly 
independent board meeting about 

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like a committee meeting about 
like the share structure, right?

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I mean, like, it's right, it's 
in, it's just incredible. 

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Yeah, and it's the 
infrastructure that was put in 

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place to keep at least mark. 
Brick specifically in throned 

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has been set and they're sort of
nothing we can do about it, we 

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can dig into all these and 
obviously we love the Mark 

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Zuckerberg control one because 
it's personality and fun. 

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Yeah. 
Like and it's sort of, you know,

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value neutral. 
So reporters can like really 

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wade into that because it's just
sort of like anyway. 

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But I want to go through your 
sort of big, faceless narrative.

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So, what's number two? 
So that's one. 

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And then the second is, I mean, 
one another is Facebook and the 

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continuing kind of erosion of 
democratic Norms, right? 

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And look, what is the role? 
That one's a little, that one's 

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a little murkier. 
There's a lot of complex reasons

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why Democratic Norms around the 
world have changed and I mean 

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and casebook is a potentially 
contributing factor in a lot of 

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those cases. 
It's it's like what do you say I

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mean what do we say at this 
point, right? 

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So much has been written about 
that but does the flood of 

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disinformation misinformation. 
Nation, you know what is the 

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effect that it has on society? 
What does it have on democracy? 

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And the way that people like 
facts that they believe in and 

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what they believe is real and 
how they vote? 

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I mean, I actually think there's
that moment. 

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I was in the room for that 
economy conference in 2016 and 

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Tory has one, you know? 
Or yes, me too. 

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Hello wow. 
Royalty. 

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I was I felt flattered and I you
know, I was I was, you know, you

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know, see you were there when he
was. 

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Like yeah, it's pretty crazy to 
think about. 

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Well, I have no idea what you 
guys are talking about. 

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I don't even, this isn't even a.
So I write basically the day 

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after the election, there was a 
conference and Zuck was 

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scheduled to speak. 
So, of course, the first 

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question Zach is asked, is, do 
you think that Facebook played 

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any role in Donald Trump's 
election in his victory and 

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Zuckerberg I said, Depot, what 
was do you remember exactly what

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he said? 
Well, I remember to the words he

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says, I think of yes, pretty 
crazy. 

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Pretty crazy to think that 
Facebook affected the election. 

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Yes. 
I mean, you know, I don't 

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remember in the room, I remember
the room being kind of like 

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silent and like there wasn't 
like some Big Lagoon, Collective

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gasp or anything, but like 
externally on social media like,

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yeah. 
It was like a like a bomb. 

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It was the day after the 
election. 

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Everyone was pretty numb for the
most people are in the room. 

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Nobody had any emotional 
reaction to Thing and that only 

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now I remember to in terms of 
picking up pieces of words that 

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he said during that, I think he 
said that people make their 

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election voting decisions based 
on lived experiences rather 

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than, you know, the information 
that they consume online. 

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I think what was the point is, 
right? 

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It would take him like it would 
take him what seven years later 

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to acknowledge that. 
Facebook is a lived experience. 

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When he renamed his company, 
medical things at all anymore. 

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Like, that's a good boy. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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And I mean, I actually, in some 
ways, I think there is a 

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continues to be like a debate 
about the extent to which 

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Facebook's responsible for, for 
that 100%. 

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I don't think it's worth saying 
that he, that was that insane of

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a statement to make. 
I mean, like we can laugh about 

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it. 
Now as we can, I don't wanna 

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interrupt you. 
But yeah, I don't I don't want 

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to say okay I don't want to 
posit that as like a completely 

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crazy thing that he said, I 
think this many years later if 

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there's reasonable debate to be 
had. 

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Yeah, on whether or not that was
right now. 

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The discussion with Alex and 
we'll come back to that. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
I remember the discussion with 

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Alex. 
Well, then I and then, you know,

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I think there's also another 
thread, it's just Facebook and 

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like, like harms to like mental 
health, like, the way that it 

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sort of, I mean, like the Teen 
Health story, which I know we're

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going to talk about, there's 
also the problematic use slash 

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Tech addiction storyline, right?
Like, we're people are 

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compulsive. 
Only using Facebook and they to 

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the point where they don't spend
time with their kids, there's a 

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subset of that. 
There's some sort of those 

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users. 
That's something that came out 

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of the Facebook files documents.
And so, there's just a lot of 

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how does Facebook personally 
harm to get the Tom's Point? 

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Like how does it personally harm
the individual? 

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There you? 
Yeah, you. 

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Yeah. 
And so I think there's there's 

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that there's that, there's so 
many others names, but those are

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the ones, those are the ones. 
I'm and some, my, some I argue 

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that theme. 
Yeah. 

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Two and three are related as 
well. 

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Yes they were all right. 
Now we have a even go. 

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Like this is helpful. 
This is a well organized as 

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review of Facebook. 
Yeah, it's almost so deep as 

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been thinking about for a long 
time, a long time, I mean, there

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is a lot by the way, there's a 
lot of Prior just like three. 

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Can I ask you on these on these 
points as you are thinking about

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them and doing your reporting 
How Deeply do? 

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Do a lot of your sources at 
Facebook, contemplate. 

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These things. 
There's such a broad range 

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right. 
There are definitely people who 

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think that this is all bullshit,
but okay, yeah, maybe Facebook 

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had a role in Myanmar, okay, 
fine. 

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Yeah. 
Maybe, you know, disinformation 

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is bad, but we don't necessarily
know how this information like 

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affects votes. 
I mean, okay, January 6, you 

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know, like there's definitely 
people who are a little bit in 

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denial and that's like kind of 
the mental, what their thinking,

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their train of thought. 
And then there's Definitely 

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people who it's hard for them to
engage in this conversation 

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because they feel like the media
is out to get them. 

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All right? 
There's a whole media versus 

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Facebook theme to, which is, I 
don't think particularly 

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helpful, but it is something 
that a lot of people think 

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they're at, you know, there's a 
feeling of like, oh well the 

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media's. 
I've actually had Facebook 

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people argue to me before like 
the media is jealous of of us 

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because we make so much money 
and we're taking all their 

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influence and, you know, that's 
We got to the truth to it, but 

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it's very complicated. 
I don't want. 

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Yeah. 
I mean reporter is by their very

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profession Believe In Like A 
reported intentional way of 

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knowing things about the world, 
they believe in like truth. 

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They believe in like fact 
checking and they believe that 

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people who do those things in 
our virtuous and that way should

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get rewarded in some sense for 
it and Facebook loves reward 

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people. 
I mean Ryan Broderick at garbage

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day was just I dream about, you 
know, these viral like the cat 

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breastfeeding episode, you know,
like social media, whether it's 

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00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,500
Tick-Tock or Facebook sort of 
thrive on pumping out things 

228
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that are like obviously Falls. 
And I think any of us is 

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reporters, it can drive us crazy
because we believe in like truth

230
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and we think it's bad that these
platforms just in and of itself,

231
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feed people stuff, that's 
obviously not true. 

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Just to make them angry for a 
second to get engagement. 

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And so, is that bias? 
I don't know. 

234
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We all share. 
That's literally never been a 

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motivating factor. 
Anything I've thought about 

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recording, we share like a 
worldview about like you don't 

237
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agree with that. 
No, I don't like I don't, I 

238
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don't think that's like 
something that motivates me to 

239
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report at all. 100% know the 
couple times I've written about 

240
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Facebook that was literally not 
something. 

241
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I thought about what did I think
about. 

242
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Here's a list of people. 
I need to call. 

243
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Here's a list of things. 
I need to know. 

244
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I have X amount of hours to get 
the information, and I'm going 

245
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to get it. 
And I'm going to Roger this file

246
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and someone else is going to 
clean it up and I hit publish. 

247
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That's what I thought was very, 
it wasn't. 

248
00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:09,800
It wasn't known as easier for 
like the Mark Zuckerberg sort of

249
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style bucket one but like, 
bucket, two and three have a lot

250
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of like, what are your values, 
your values play into it or 

251
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Depot. 
I mean, if you want them to, I 

252
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mean, but like deeper, when you 
let's go like drill and 

253
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specifically on the year, a 
member of the media and you're 

254
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,100
only writing critically about us
because you're jealous of our ad

255
00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:31,600
money or Something. 
I mean and if you've actually 

256
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had these conversations because 
I never have a, you see it play 

257
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out on Twitter which is the 
world's worst medium to have a 

258
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meaningful and nuanced 
conversation with someone. 

259
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But yeah, as you are engaging 
with, you know, in a background 

260
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,900
setting, so you can speak sort 
of freely with someone and they 

261
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and they put to you this like, 
you know, Canard about what the 

262
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,100
media is, are you able to have 
like a reasonable conversation 

263
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:56,400
with them about it and, you 
know, and maybe your mind is 

264
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,000
changed slightly by them and 
vice versa. 

265
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,200
It's like kind of gets down to 
the function of news though. 

266
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Like if your I had a I went to 
journalism school and I had this

267
00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:08,800
professor in college, he talked 
about how during the Vietnam 

268
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,900
war, he felt like it was 
newspapers responsibility to 

269
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consistently shove in people's 
faces. 

270
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The pictures will coffins coming
home, you know like repeatedly 

271
00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:19,600
show it to them. 
Like he I think he used the word

272
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,900
force, it down their throats and
not because they like it like 

273
00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:26,500
like news is one of those weird 
Industries or it's not just you 

274
00:14:26,508 --> 00:14:28,600
don't give people what they want
or what they say. 

275
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They want you give people What? 
The, you know, you as an 

276
00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:34,900
institution, think they need, 
and if we as an institution, 

277
00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:37,100
thank you. 
Hey, you need to understand, and

278
00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:40,700
highlight the harms of 
Technology. 

279
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,900
Then I mean, that's yeah, I 
guess that's an editorial 

280
00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:46,700
choice. 
But like, you know, that's the 

281
00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:50,900
purpose of news and to highlight
issues so that people can kind 

282
00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:53,900
of make their choices and 
understand, because they're 

283
00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:55,800
going to get PR from everywhere,
right? 

284
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,100
There's advertising that like, 
you know, if you, if you're a 

285
00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:02,300
think of Like a Facebook user, 
you will get a lot of 

286
00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:03,900
information about Facebook from 
the news. 

287
00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:06,600
But Facebook has all these other
routes right there is actual 

288
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,300
Facebook, right product that is 
used by millions of people. 

289
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:12,900
Lots of men. 
I know they pump out whenever 

290
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:15,100
Sheryl, Sandberg has some live 
stream. 

291
00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:16,500
I get some notification in 
there. 

292
00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:20,100
I am suddenly listening to her 
directly, it's extreme. 

293
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,300
It's a huge microphone. 
That's my favorite show every 

294
00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:26,700
time and you know, so that they 
have their own platform, they 

295
00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:29,200
have advertising, they have, you
know, there's still a lot of 

296
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,000
places. 
At will, like, do interviews 

297
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:32,400
with them that are crossed off 
Bali. 

298
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,600
Like, I don't, you know, I don't
know if it's that's not my job. 

299
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,100
My job isn't to be PR. 
It's not your job to be like, 

300
00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:40,400
this is the number one movie in 
America, you know what I mean? 

301
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,900
So, mainstream media, Where The 
Red Pill. 

302
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:49,400
All right. 
So so the sort of Alex Stamos, 

303
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,600
sort of democracy fight. 
I mean this fits into sort of 

304
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,800
the media has an agenda because 
I think a key framing there for 

305
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:03,500
him was this idea? 
Year, that Facebook was guilty 

306
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:09,000
in that, they, you know, let the
Russians like by, you know, get 

307
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,400
some ads that sort of 
manipulated people, but that 

308
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:17,600
campaign was much smaller than 
the effect of the actual hack, 

309
00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:20,900
which was sort of laundered 
through the media and that the 

310
00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:24,700
media was far more complicit and
that the media has an interest 

311
00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:28,900
in blowing one of those two 
scandals out of proportion. 

312
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,200
And And that's, that's sort of 
where we are. 

313
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,100
Do you disagree with, with that 
argument? 

314
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,900
It's like two different sets of 
media, though, right? 

315
00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:40,800
Like, I mean, Tech reporters who
are the media is not like a blob

316
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,100
in that, like a blob, is really 
moves in unison, right? 

317
00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:47,800
And it's not even though we're 
not like look, we're not 

318
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,100
organized enough to be like a 
conspiracy, like we don't have 

319
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,400
like enough look, I don't know 
what my colleague who sits next 

320
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,200
to me is doing. 
I got any at Maybe like more 

321
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,300
than half the time, right more 
than half the time. 

322
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:06,000
And like, not that I have any 
colleagues who sit next to me 

323
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,200
anymore, but you know what I 
mean? 

324
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,900
Like, I don't give your kids 
right now and I also don't know 

325
00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:12,000
what my kids are doing. 
I relate. 

326
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:17,800
And so, I just think that, you 
know, I, I detect reporters were

327
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:23,800
focusing on, on Facebook and 
sort of the impact of the Russia

328
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,900
campaign, and there isn't 
necessarily A like, what's the 

329
00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:32,400
like those same I'm reporters 
weren't involved in a lot of the

330
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,200
Hillary Clinton, like, kind of 
the week coverage that Alex is 

331
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,300
talking about, right? 
Like this is like where I am way

332
00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:42,900
out of my depth like it but it's
not the same individual 

333
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:45,800
reporters. 
So who should who should answer 

334
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,300
that? 
Question is so hard for me to 

335
00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:51,500
answer it but also the other 
thing that Alex sort of he this 

336
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,300
the store if you end the story 
at the 2016 election, I think 

337
00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:58,400
his point is very strong but 
what he then goes on to say and 

338
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,800
he does not link these Points is
that disinformation 

339
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,000
misinformation bad information, 
democracy. 

340
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,800
Eroding information is now 
spread by everyday Americans. 

341
00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:10,600
We actually don't need Russia to
hack. 

342
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:16,400
Tom podesta's, email, and grab 
it and give it to reporters now,

343
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,300
everyday Americans are taking 
care of that, but the tool they 

344
00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:24,100
are using, is still Facebook. 
And so I under, like I said, if 

345
00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:28,600
you stop his narrative at 2016, 
I think it is very strong, but 

346
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,400
what we do, he Aunt, do is 
extend the timeline to show that

347
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,500
you no longer need Russians to 
hack anyone because Americans 

348
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:37,300
are taking care of it 
themselves, but the tool that 

349
00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:41,300
they need in order to spread 
that information is Facebook. 

350
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:46,400
You know, if I can just say one 
thing that is probably like just

351
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,900
sort of a side point. 
Alex has broader point about the

352
00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:53,100
media introspection and like how
reporters need to really think 

353
00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:55,100
about the editorial choices they
made. 

354
00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:58,200
I don't, it's like, to me, it's 
separate from Facebook's 

355
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,400
responsibility, but it's also 
Men like true, but I agree like 

356
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,200
reporters need to be constantly 
thinking about it, but when it 

357
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,100
comes to issues and I don't 
think we as an industry, do 

358
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:12,000
enough to interrogate ourselves 
and look at our choices. 

359
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,000
Specially our editorial choices,
right. 

360
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,300
A lot of the criticism is the 
Masthead level rather than beat 

361
00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:19,600
reporter level. 
Yeah and we're talking to the 

362
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,400
beat reporter obvious, right. 
But I also kind of think those 

363
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,900
are separate questions from the 
impact of technology and 

364
00:19:27,100 --> 00:19:29,700
whenever I talk to somebody 
who's very defensive about Out 

365
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:31,400
technology. 
They're always try to like, kind

366
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,800
of throw it to this other 
argument, which is the media. 

367
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,900
And I'm like this is like these 
aren't the same topic well, but 

368
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:39,800
do they agree with that because 
the media has made it. 

369
00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:42,000
I mean, like, you know, this is 
the argument that tech people 

370
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,300
will always make is like, you 
can pull the audience, but the 

371
00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:47,700
audience is just a reflection of
the media that they consume 

372
00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:50,000
which we've now. 
Agreed is the case, one way or 

373
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,100
the other, then you know they 
can definitely say an agenda is 

374
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:57,000
responsible for that sentiment. 
Well, I mean, if it is I don't 

375
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,200
know. 
If you look at just what could 

376
00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:01,000
like, just look at consumers. 
Southeast will use Facebook 

377
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,400
constantly. 
Look, I've been writing about 

378
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:03,900
this company for almost seven 
years. 

379
00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:06,900
I use Facebook. 
I sold my couch recently on 

380
00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:09,300
Facebook Marketplace. 
I do best program. 

381
00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:15,000
I'm not anti Facebook, right? 
Like if these things aren't this

382
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:20,000
is its these it's not it 
mutually exclusive to use 

383
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,400
Facebook products but also be 
critical of the company's harms.

384
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,100
It's like, I don't know. 
We all vote. 

385
00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:27,700
We live in a democracy but we 
can still challenge our 

386
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:31,400
Democratic leaders. 
The Fect of all this reporting 

387
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,400
on Facebook, is that there's 
like a there are people are, 

388
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,700
like, shut Facebook down or it 
does, it does feel like, you 

389
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:41,200
know, some of it can feel like 
it's so relentless, because the 

390
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,100
goal is to get rid of Mark 
Zuckerberg or because it's like,

391
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:47,900
well, he's responsible. 
There's been no change. 

392
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:50,500
How can you believe, you know 
that? 

393
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:53,100
The company really means to 
change when the guy in charge. 

394
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,800
Yeah, and I know, you can't say 
one way or the other whether you

395
00:20:56,808 --> 00:20:59,500
think Mark Zuckerberg should be 
replaced. 

396
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:01,800
Yes, but I don't know. 
What can you say about the 

397
00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:06,700
relationship between the fact 
that it's one guy and sort of 

398
00:21:06,700 --> 00:21:12,800
the relentlessness? 
I mean, I think that this, I 

399
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,300
just think he's a crude, a lot 
of power and I think he's 

400
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:19,900
probably more. 
He appears to be, at least from 

401
00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:21,600
the outside, right? 
There's a lot, we don't 

402
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:26,500
necessarily know, but he appears
from the outside to be like, you

403
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:29,400
know, as powerful a situation as
a 10. 

404
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,400
Anytime before right guy, I 
don't see him stepping. 

405
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,700
Yeah, he literally floats above 
water right. 

406
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:41,300
He's he has godley's a crude. 
Godlike abilities. 

407
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,400
That's a, he's using a hydrofoil
hydrofoil New York Times. 

408
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,100
It was not. 
It was not a windsurf, it was it

409
00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:53,100
was a hydrofoil, right? 
What are the worst Corrections? 

410
00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:58,400
I've seen in the times history 
and so there's there's a real 

411
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,100
question of Okay. 
So what's been the impact of all

412
00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:09,700
this reporting this fairly good,
investigative reporting on 

413
00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:11,600
Facebook. 
And I think there's a lot of 

414
00:22:11,608 --> 00:22:14,400
people within one thing that I 
find really interesting. 

415
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,300
So you guys remember Cambridge 
analytic about the under that 

416
00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:19,400
that all that episode 
unfortunately. 

417
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,300
Yes and so camera J. 
Let It Go. 

418
00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:25,500
Was it was interesting for a lot
of reasons like it. 

419
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:29,700
I don't there is that narrative 
that, you know, the data Was 

420
00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:32,200
taken by. 
Let me see if I can remember it.

421
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:37,700
I haven't thought about this in 
a long time like Hogan and then 

422
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,300
Alexander Cogan, right? 
That's his name, I think. 

423
00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:43,100
And then, it was given to 
Cambridge analytical and then 

424
00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:47,900
Cambridge analytic gotta 
supposedly fed that into their, 

425
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,200
like, kind of their machine 
learning software, whatever, and

426
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:57,900
then were able to Target would 
be Trump voters or like voters 

427
00:22:57,900 --> 00:23:01,200
in general, didn't Action and 
flip their votes, either got 

428
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,300
them to vote for Trump or got 
them right to not vote for 

429
00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:07,600
Hillary. 
And I think that feels super 

430
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,800
hard to prove. 
Like, I don't, it's a fake 

431
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,400
scandal-ridden into your times, 
the nobody believes anymore, 

432
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,200
that they've never really 
apologized for. 

433
00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:17,300
I mean, that's also the 
guardian. 

434
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:19,400
Eric, there are absolutely 
right. 

435
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,000
And then when they there was a 
Pulitzer campaign, there was a 

436
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,600
lot of drama around, which side 
should get credit there, but I 

437
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,100
do like the the times is the 
only publication. 

438
00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:33,000
Remember For writing that story.
I mean, that's what I read. 

439
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,700
I mean, it's very influential 
no. 

440
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:36,900
But that, that is a good point. 
That is a good point. 

441
00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:39,500
I mean, no Angry. 
Like, why is the times the only 

442
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:41,400
publication remembered for 
writing that story? 

443
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,600
Because it wasn't just the time 
special, it was the guardian. 

444
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,000
It was the guardian for I 
believe won awards for it. 

445
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:51,100
They broke the story, right? 
And like every other publication

446
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:53,900
matched is so why is the times, 
the only what time is it? 

447
00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:55,900
The Forefront would know. 
First of all, they did have, you

448
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:58,900
know an ultra Ultra long story? 
No, we had to, we had to team up

449
00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:00,200
with the guard. 
DS. 

450
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,900
Yeah, it's see that. 
You'll see that care her by 

451
00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:07,600
lines on all of the stories. 
I mean this is sort of similar 

452
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,600
wiser - coverage of Facebook. 
It's like because New York Times

453
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,800
is the most powerful you know, 
like news Alan people hold it in

454
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,900
highest. 
I'm not, I'm not saying I'm not,

455
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,500
I'm not saying you shouldn't 
criticize. 

456
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:20,300
I'm just wondering like, why you
only want the times to 

457
00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:24,300
apologize, I trust the times 10x
to the guardian so I don't care.

458
00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:26,100
Really. 
If the guardian even though 

459
00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:29,100
Carol called baller is now 
credited with actually breaking 

460
00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:31,400
the story. 
Archie has a very strong. 

461
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,100
She's a very opinionated report 
anyway, totally different. 

462
00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:37,700
Yeah, we're but we also trusted 
Journal equally to the time I 

463
00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:38,700
do. 
Trust the journal. 

464
00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:41,800
Yeah. 
Well what I was going to say 

465
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,500
that so that part was like kind 
of hard to prove but what if 

466
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:47,500
absolutely demonstrated was that
there was a time when you could 

467
00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:51,100
just like kind of suck up user 
data from Facebook and then the 

468
00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:54,000
company infinite absolutely no 
idea where it went right? 

469
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,600
And the end and that is a 
legitimate issue and I think 

470
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,300
they were kind of and then they 
Addressed it. 

471
00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:03,400
And, you know it was like Mark, 
Zuckerberg took five days to 

472
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,800
sort of sit down and like, 
understand what was going on. 

473
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,400
Come up with a bunch of scenes 
and are fixes or whatever and 

474
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,600
then, finally spoke up 
criticized for waiting that 

475
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,200
long. 
I mean, there's certain certain 

476
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,400
things in hindsight that are I 
mean like this like the five-day

477
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:22,500
wait how big of a scandal is it?
I mean it's it's a little in the

478
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,400
like kind of as we go further 
pass it. 

479
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,400
I don't run running was the 
biggest scan true skin on. 

480
00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:31,600
That whole thing, that was, what
morning? 

481
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:38,000
Remember the Facebook comms 
front ran the actual issue 

482
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,700
because that it made them look 
guilty and then everybody was 

483
00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:43,600
like oh fuck Facebook was 
nothing reporters, hate more 

484
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,100
than front running. 
Like yeah that what's the five 

485
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:49,100
days they took a while to 
actually like figure it out and 

486
00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:52,100
come up with this substantive 
response to the like the kind of

487
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:54,100
contract. 
Because I remember I actually 

488
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:56,700
remember this very well because 
I was in the process of planning

489
00:25:56,700 --> 00:25:59,300
my wedding, during the Cambridge
analytic has gone away. 

490
00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:01,600
It was a beautiful wedding, 
thank you. 

491
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,000
It was also really hard to plan 
at a certain point. 

492
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,600
I just sort of like stepped. 
I was like, okay I'm I can't 

493
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:12,000
plan what you did to religions 
multiple days at a retreat. 

494
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,100
It was wow, that's nice. 
Eric was actually there. 

495
00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:25,000
While I was getting ready when 
the published time, that is your

496
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,400
fault. 
And I'm so anyway, we so we just

497
00:26:29,500 --> 00:26:33,900
Just we, you know, the actual 
thing that I think is really 

498
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:36,700
important is that is the leak of
data. 

499
00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:39,500
And so anyway, if you remember 
the Facebook response to that 

500
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:42,800
was, okay, we're really sorry. 
We this is what all the things 

501
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,400
we're doing around privacy, 
these are all the different 

502
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,100
steps were going to take 
etcetera, etc. 

503
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:50,500
Etc. 
You haven't seen that this time,

504
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:52,700
right? 
With the, with the documents 

505
00:26:52,700 --> 00:26:55,200
that right? 
That were published in the 

506
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,700
journal and then later by a lot 
of other outlets, like what the 

507
00:26:57,700 --> 00:27:00,400
Whistleblower got. 
Like, you just You haven't seen 

508
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,200
that level of apology in fact, 
what you see his Defiance. 

509
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:09,100
And I think that's a reflection 
of can Mark gaining more power, 

510
00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:12,900
just feeling more confident, and
sort of asserting what he thinks

511
00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:14,200
is, right? 
And like our understanding is, 

512
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,700
it is and it's been reported 
elsewhere. 

513
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:19,600
Is that a lot of that is being 
driven through, Mark, with sort 

514
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,100
of saying, I don't want 
apologies. 

515
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,000
I want us to be tough and they 
happen to us when they get into 

516
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,700
arguments, like I feel like 
they're doing our hair. 

517
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,100
Like I do think there's six. 
Feeding is it Facebook files, 

518
00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:34,100
like, champagne. 
They're only Facebook files. 

519
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:36,800
If it's published in the Wall 
Street Journal and anywhere 

520
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,900
else. 
It's sparkling sparkling wine. 

521
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,600
Yeah, right, this is what we 
called our series. 

522
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,900
And then, like guess one, the 
Consortium got it. 

523
00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:48,400
They were like, we don't want to
go on to Facebook files, but it 

524
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,200
isn't it? 
I forget, which reporter said 

525
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,100
that you don't want to call it. 
I forget, what do they call it? 

526
00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:54,700
They called it like the Facebook
because Casey, the left over, 

527
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,100
right? 
So they want to bring like the 

528
00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:00,300
Facebook papers. 
So like, Yeah, you know, some 

529
00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:03,100
people say Facebook papers 
Facebook, but this is evidence 

530
00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:05,700
here that media does not glued 
very well. 

531
00:28:05,700 --> 00:28:10,400
You know, Eddie like, yeah, so 
you're you know, the Facebook 

532
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,800
file story, The tell us about 
your Instagram story. 

533
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,400
We've talked about on the 
podcast, somewhat, maybe in ways

534
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,400
you disagree with so I don't 
care. 

535
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:23,000
We've always been incredibly 
positive about all the journals 

536
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,300
Facebook stores. 
I mean and a lot of like all 

537
00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:27,000
credit kind of goes to my 
colleague. 

538
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,300
Jeff for basically convincing 
Francis, how good. 

539
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,400
Come forward and provide all 
these documents and it's been 

540
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,900
awesome to work with him. 
And he actually is funny. 

541
00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:40,700
I I was on maternity leave 
earlier this year and he's like,

542
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:42,700
hey, I can, I come over? 
I just want to talk to you about

543
00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:47,000
this like project were working 
on and I had three month old 

544
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,900
daughter at the time and like, 
listen, three months, you know, 

545
00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:54,200
Tom knows its base, they're like
they're a lot and and so he's 

546
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:55,700
sitting in like he's sitting 
there. 

547
00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:58,200
It's like post vaccine times. 
He's like a cliff that I really 

548
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,200
want your help on this project. 
I'm like okay fine yeah what is 

549
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,500
it is like we have a bunch of 
internal documents and they're 

550
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:08,400
really revelatory and I was like
okay I don't look at wasn't 

551
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,100
processing at all and then my 
daughter vomited on me and then 

552
00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:16,300
like all these things happened 
and then you know key it wasn't 

553
00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:18,300
that like the moment where 
things click tree, like wait a 

554
00:29:18,308 --> 00:29:20,300
second. 
There's something that is putrid

555
00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:23,400
and gross that lives inside an 
organism that when it gets out 

556
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:27,200
says something about the world 
and what it means to me, if I 

557
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,400
had the mental capacity to think
like that, Maybe but I've had 

558
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,700
nothing. 
I was so fried and I you know, I

559
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:36,200
just I didn't really appreciate 
what he was talking about until 

560
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,000
like I came back like a few 
weeks later and started going 

561
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,100
through the documents and I was 
like, this is amazing. 

562
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:45,000
Like it was just fascinating, 
right? 

563
00:29:45,100 --> 00:29:47,100
And in part because you know, 
you asked this question that I 

564
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:49,900
didn't really fully answer 
earlier about, like, what's the 

565
00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:52,000
conversation internally at the 
company? 

566
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,700
Like, all right, and they're 
definitely people who are 

567
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:55,900
defensive and feel like the 
media is out to get them. 

568
00:29:56,100 --> 00:30:00,500
There's also so many people 
there, That are really 

569
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:05,500
thoughtful conscientious, and 
like trying the furnace, right? 

570
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:09,500
There's a lot of earnestness in 
there, where they believe that 

571
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:13,200
they can effect change which, 
you know, we can debate whether 

572
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,900
that's ever possible at a 
company like that, but they 

573
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:18,800
believe that they have a duty to
do that. 

574
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,200
And you see that in a lot of 
these. 

575
00:30:20,300 --> 00:30:22,700
You see that on a lot of these 
comments and you see this in 

576
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:26,100
what, you know, she captured. 
And I think that's that thing, 

577
00:30:26,100 --> 00:30:28,000
that's meaningful. 
You know, it's not a monolith, 

578
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,500
it to Riley. 
The media is not a block. 

579
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:32,500
Facebook's not a block either, 
there's a lot of, right? 

580
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:34,600
I mean there's an argument that 
this sort of way you're saying 

581
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,500
that part of what the Facebook 
files are our employees inside 

582
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:42,000
the company, sort of doing 
research aligned with the 

583
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,900
reporters outside the company. 
I mean, I laugh sometimes when 

584
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:49,800
we talk about company companies 
like you, we talk. 

585
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,400
We talk about Facebook a lot and
you write about Facebook but 

586
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,600
like, who is Facebook? 
Because sometimes Facebook is 

587
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,900
like calms people write like a 
lot of times that's Of the 

588
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:02,900
ultimate because we sometimes 
talk about Facebook is being 

589
00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:05,600
sort of separate from Mark 
Zuckerberg even though he's 

590
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,400
like, very in control and then, 
there are obviously people who 

591
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,400
are doing the research that 
you're sort of writing about 

592
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,300
positively and they're saying, 
that's not Facebook, so it can 

593
00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:18,300
be very confusing. 
Yeah. 

594
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:21,800
Been talking about a company to,
to say that Facebook's like 

595
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,000
getting one point when it's 
yeah, yeah, I mean, like that's 

596
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,700
what we that's true and we 
should just be a little bit 

597
00:31:28,700 --> 00:31:30,700
more. 
Located about what we're talking

598
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:32,200
about when we say Facebook 
right? 

599
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,400
Like is that leadership, is it 
Zuckerberg Cheryl? 

600
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,800
You know, all these different 
Executives that are up stopping 

601
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,300
company? 
Are you talking about, is this 

602
00:31:39,300 --> 00:31:42,100
like a message coming from the 
Integrity folks, which is where 

603
00:31:42,300 --> 00:31:44,400
a lot of This research, is being
conducted? 

604
00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:45,700
Is it? 
You got to think through the 

605
00:31:45,708 --> 00:31:49,000
differences of Instagram and 
WhatsApp and Facebook. 

606
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,900
They all have different and 
discreet cultures. 

607
00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:54,800
I mean, there's a it's obviously
I mean like this is this is very

608
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,700
obvious, I think but it is not a
yeah it's all a single Be like 

609
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:01,900
blah bright. 
Like the way all companies and 

610
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:05,800
the way the media is it's just 
it's a really complex place and 

611
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,800
I think one thing I've enjoyed 
about and I've been proud about 

612
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,300
with our coverage is the fact 
that I think we've highlighted 

613
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:14,600
that because we're talking about
these sort of Divisions within 

614
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:20,200
the company and in terms of how 
to approach certain issues and 

615
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,400
how the Integrity teams that 
were built and tasked with, 

616
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:29,200
protecting the company, and 
protecting users are often side.

617
00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:31,700
I'd lined. 
You know, so I you know, has the

618
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:35,400
chi like in terms of impact, I'm
not sure if you like the company

619
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,600
is restricting access to that 
kind of research now, they are 

620
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,500
really cutting down on leaks. 
Someone was telling me that now 

621
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:46,600
data scientists are a lot more 
careful about how they were 

622
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,600
their conclusions. 
Like, they don't want to, 

623
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,800
because, like, they have to 
think, okay, this is going to be

624
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,300
leaked. 
So, how do I say it? 

625
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,700
And I mean, we haven't heard 
them pulling research, right? 

626
00:32:57,700 --> 00:32:59,000
Like felt like they're 
disbanding. 

627
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,800
Any That study is addiction or 
whatever, but we don't know 

628
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,400
what, what else might be going. 
I mean, is this central question

629
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,900
of the Facebook files? 
You know, is Facebook just like 

630
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:12,100
a tobacco company? 
Or like, are we going to look at

631
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:14,100
that? 
I mean, do you think the Tobacco

632
00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:17,000
Company metaphor? 
Because it's like very oriented 

633
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,600
around, what your internal 
research says? 

634
00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:25,400
Yeah and how that can come back 
to bite you sort of as negative 

635
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,900
opinion sort of evolved over 
time I think it's not Okay, so I

636
00:33:29,908 --> 00:33:34,700
don't I think like the similar 
coverage strategy, right? 

637
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:37,800
Like, where are you? 
And in part, because strategy is

638
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,200
almost too fancy of award. 
We don't we didn't know that 

639
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,800
this data This research existed 
before it was like, like we had 

640
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,300
all heard of a lot of This 
research, but like, we've nobody

641
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,800
had seen it, right? 
And so that parallel is 

642
00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:57,200
unplanned, I guess, but so yeah,
we're looking at what the 

643
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,200
company's own assessment of 
itself. 

644
00:33:59,500 --> 00:34:02,100
You saw this with like that like
Exxon coverage. 

645
00:34:02,100 --> 00:34:06,400
I think a few years ago and how 
they are, scientists knew that I

646
00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:09,900
liked about the company's effect
on climate change and, you know,

647
00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:13,699
like there's a lot of this 
framework and this about the 

648
00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:17,600
strategy of coverage is common 
in a lot of Industries. 

649
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,400
Write the stories were good 
because it was about what 

650
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,300
Facebook knew about their own 
behavior. 

651
00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:27,100
Not just what's happening? 
Yeah, and also what they, you 

652
00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:29,000
know, like that's one thing with
the teen. 

653
00:34:29,300 --> 00:34:31,800
Health, and mental health stuff.
You know, there is an argument 

654
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,900
out there that this stuff, this 
research, you do these five 

655
00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:37,699
research reports, some of which 
included, surveys of, tens of 

656
00:34:37,699 --> 00:34:40,900
thousands of people that they 
weren't conclusive and fine 

657
00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:43,000
fair. 
But then, you know, the company 

658
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,199
then then you look at what the 
choices the leadership made 

659
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:49,800
like, did they then go do the 
more intense research did they 

660
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,100
then go like, partner with any 
of these academics that have 

661
00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:56,500
been studying this stuff and try
to get their opinions? 

662
00:34:56,500 --> 00:34:58,200
All right, we're taught we're 
talking around the Instagram 

663
00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,100
story. 
This point frame. 

664
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,700
Yeah, and like let's let's get 
into the meat of the. 

665
00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:03,700
Alright. 
So that was the story. 

666
00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:05,400
I was involved in the initial 
run. 

667
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,200
You know we've done a lot of 
stories since then but an 

668
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,000
initial run, the Instagram team 
helped Stories the way that the 

669
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:16,800
general conceit of the story is 
that Facebook had internal 

670
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:22,000
research that Instagram had 
undermined the mental health of 

671
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,200
a subset of teams, right? 
So you had not all gains but 

672
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:32,100
like a lot of teams you had If 
you were experiencing body image

673
00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:36,700
issues for one in three teens 
Instagram, made it worse, for if

674
00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:41,000
you were experiencing kind of 
suicidal ideation, if you were, 

675
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,400
if you were in that mindset for 
a small percentage of those 

676
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,600
teens and the UK and in the u.s.
Instagram, made it worse, right?

677
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,100
And and so you look at the study
and they're like, there's a, 

678
00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:58,100
there's a sizable percentage of 
teams that are not just, it's 

679
00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:00,300
not neutral. 
It's like Actually harmed by 

680
00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:05,400
what they see in our platform 
and through the actual feed 

681
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,600
through and through the explore 
page. 

682
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:13,700
And you know, the story then 
also goes into what leadership 

683
00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:19,200
actually did about it. 
You know, and they, there was a 

684
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,300
one particular feature that they
decided to launch. 

685
00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:27,100
It was like, an opt-in feature 
to remove likes, right? 

686
00:36:27,100 --> 00:36:30,500
From your, from your From your 
feed. 

687
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,100
And, you know, a lot of the 
researcher said, well, that 

688
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:37,500
isn't really going to solve the 
problem and Instagram went 

689
00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:39,900
forward with it anyway, because 
and this is also from their 

690
00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:42,100
internal documents. 
I thought it would be a PR with,

691
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,700
so, it raises some questions. 
Sorry, what would be rolling 

692
00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:47,500
out? 
Like a optional feature to 

693
00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:51,600
remove your like, counts likely 
using a removing the likes. 

694
00:36:51,900 --> 00:36:53,200
Sorry. 
It hurt people. 

695
00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:56,100
No, so one of excel, I'm not 
being clear. 

696
00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:58,900
I think one research just said 
that removing the likes would 

697
00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:00,100
not. 
Do anything. 

698
00:37:00,100 --> 00:37:02,900
And so why bother and Facebook 
said, well the reason to bother 

699
00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:06,700
us because would be a PR one and
like the idea being that, you 

700
00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:09,700
know, the hypothesis was like, 
if you remove likes and you 

701
00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:11,700
remove that social comparison 
issue, right? 

702
00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:14,400
Where you're like, comparing 
yourself against like somebody 

703
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,100
else in your class and then if 
they get more likes that might 

704
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:20,000
make you feel bad. 
And you know, so maybe one 

705
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,300
solution was removed the likes 
but they found that that doesn't

706
00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:25,900
really help if it's especially 
if it's optional, right? 

707
00:37:25,900 --> 00:37:28,100
But Facebook, went ahead with it
anyway because I thought it 

708
00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:31,200
would look good. 
And so there's there's there's a

709
00:37:31,207 --> 00:37:36,500
lot of in there about not just 
like the problem itself. 

710
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:42,100
But then the way the company 
went about, like, quote-unquote,

711
00:37:42,100 --> 00:37:44,000
solving it. 
And like the way they just sort 

712
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,300
of like they sort of sidestep 
the issue and try to put 

713
00:37:47,300 --> 00:37:51,000
Band-Aids on on some of these on
some of these problems and I 

714
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,800
think I'm actually so now I'm 
curious like what did you guys 

715
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,200
think? 
Like, that's so that's the story

716
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,000
that's actually generated a lot 
of heat. 

717
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,800
Well And just yeah, I mean like 
the critics they all say the 

718
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,500
critics point to the fact that 
the research wasn't as dire as 

719
00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:09,400
the headlines might have made it
seem and the sales throughout 

720
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,000
the entire story. 
And I think that what has been 

721
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,800
lost for in you let me know, you
let us know why you think has 

722
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,600
happened. 
What has been lost in the 

723
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,100
reading of these stories? 
Is this focus on what the 

724
00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:24,400
company does with information 
rather than whether or not. 

725
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,900
The information is objectively, 
good or bad, whether it's 

726
00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:29,100
objectively as harmful as it 
could be. 

727
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,500
You're not quite fitting into 
that. 

728
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:35,700
I think we've said on and maybe 
Katie said, I forget, who but 

729
00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:39,800
does Facebook need to be clearly
worse than Vogue for this story 

730
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,800
to have impact. 
And I do think how the headlines

731
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,400
framed, it's like, oh some 
percentage of women feel bad 

732
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,700
when they see Instagram or 
teenage girls, excuse me, you 

733
00:38:48,700 --> 00:38:52,200
know, is that true of Vogue? 
And if it's not worse than 

734
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,800
Vogue, like why is that the 
headline or not? 

735
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,000
Even just worse than Vogue but 
if the metaphor is going to hold

736
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,300
it, Being a tobacco company in 
which there is clear and 

737
00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:06,100
unarguable, medical evidence, 
that smoking dramatically 

738
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:08,800
increases your likelihood of 
getting lung cancer, other kind 

739
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,700
of negative health effects. 
That's not the same thing as 

740
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:14,700
like, a subset of, you know, 
people, it's all smokers have a 

741
00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:18,900
higher percentage, likelihood of
getting cancer and so does that 

742
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:22,600
kind of hurt you think the the 
the strength of the metaphor and

743
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,900
you know, contribute to an idea 
of overhyping the actual 

744
00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:29,100
findings of this report? 
Yeah, I do. 

745
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:30,400
Don't, you know, it's 
interesting. 

746
00:39:31,100 --> 00:39:34,000
I just pulled up the story 
because I wanted to make sure I 

747
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,000
was remembering this, right? 
And like I've gone back and 

748
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,200
reread the story because I feel 
like when it's been quoted back 

749
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,700
to me, sometimes I don't 
recognize the story at all. 

750
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:47,500
And so the story says, you know,
32 percent of teen girl, this is

751
00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:49,600
actually quoting from the slide,
right? 

752
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,600
32 percent of teen girls said 
that when they felt bad about 

753
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,800
their bodies, Instagram made 
them feel worse. 

754
00:39:55,100 --> 00:40:00,100
This has been quoted back to me 
as 13 teen girls Being destroyed

755
00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:03,100
by Instagram, right? 
And that's not the same thing, 

756
00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:07,400
and I don't, you know, unlike I 
sort of have to step in and sort

757
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,100
of, you know, I do what I can, 
you know, I'm like, oh, well 

758
00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:12,200
actually that that had to do 
with body image issues. 

759
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,000
And I think we were very 
responsible and careful and how 

760
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,700
we trained it. 
We drew it directly from their 

761
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:20,800
side presentations. 
What do you think about the 

762
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,100
accusation that you guys 
selectively pulled information 

763
00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:26,800
that prove that point. 
But slides, that actually showed

764
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,700
there were beneficial aspects of
Instagram People to feeling 

765
00:40:29,700 --> 00:40:30,900
better. 
That was something Alex. 

766
00:40:30,900 --> 00:40:33,500
I think brought up on it and I 
know others have as well. 

767
00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:34,700
I mean what's your response to 
that? 

768
00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:40,800
I think everything we want to be
like little careful about how I 

769
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,800
say this because I want the 
story to stand for itself and I 

770
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,100
think we did a good job of 
expressing the individual data 

771
00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:48,300
points. 
But there is a distinction 

772
00:40:48,300 --> 00:40:50,800
between what we wrote in our 
story and then how it gets 

773
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,800
interpreted by other news, 
outlets commentators Advocates 

774
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,100
activists like that kind of 
thing. 

775
00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:01,300
And so there are people that I 
have taken that stat, the 32% 

776
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:05,200
Scott, and, you know, they don't
couch it or or, you know, 

777
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,300
describe it the way it's written
in both our story and the slides

778
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:11,600
right eye. 
So it's a little hard for me, 

779
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,900
too. 
I don't know. 

780
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:15,100
You guys have been in the 
situation. 

781
00:41:15,100 --> 00:41:18,300
I'm sure a number of times, 
like, what happens when someone 

782
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:21,600
is saying? 
Hey, this version of the story 

783
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,500
that's been circulating is 
wrong, okay? 

784
00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:27,200
I really exciting. 
We've all experienced as 

785
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,900
reporters is some subject hates 
the story and they're like, this

786
00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:33,300
is false and you're like, well, 
I've been through it with 

787
00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:36,300
columns every line of it is 
factually, true. 

788
00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:40,300
Like, you guys aren't contesting
on anything any individual 

789
00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:44,300
person, calms or a lawyer would 
think is false. 

790
00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:46,600
You know, like isn't that the 
definition of what truth and 

791
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:51,200
falsity is the like all the 
claims are true and then the 

792
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,900
subjects and the public are 
like, well, it reads false to me

793
00:41:56,300 --> 00:41:59,700
and I do think we sometimes, you
know, for a lot of my Career. 

794
00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:02,000
I would get lost in the 
journalistic side of it, but I 

795
00:42:02,008 --> 00:42:05,900
do think there's there's there's
a valid point that if, like, 

796
00:42:05,900 --> 00:42:09,100
people feel like your article is
leading them somewhere, right? 

797
00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:12,900
Given other facts. 
They wouldn't believe then 

798
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:17,000
there's like a falsity even if 
obviously all the moves are fair

799
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,700
and I as a reporter, obviously 
I'm sympathetic it's terrible to

800
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:22,900
say some things like false when 
the lot when it's truly 

801
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:25,800
constructed and fair and the 
journal in particular is very 

802
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,600
judicious in a way that other 
outlets aren't. 

803
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,900
I mean you You read back the 
Thera, no story, which we've 

804
00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:33,900
been talking about. 
Obviously, it really speaks, you

805
00:42:33,908 --> 00:42:36,000
know, at the time I'm sure I 
would have criticized it for 

806
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,400
pulling its punches. 
A hated win when Bloomberg would

807
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,000
do this, but there is something 
to be said for the restraint in 

808
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,100
positioning stuff and then which
may be played into, you know, 

809
00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:48,800
Francis has reason to lie, 
specifically to the journal. 

810
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,200
I think she's mentioned that, 
that she thought that Jeff was a

811
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,500
pretty even-handed operator, but
I want to go back for a second 

812
00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:58,300
on the Facebook front because I 
think what a lot of the wife as 

813
00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:01,700
we get such an interesting 
Company on this topic is that 

814
00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:04,000
there is so much that people 
personally feel about the 

815
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,300
company at this point that it 
almost doesn't matter how nuance

816
00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:10,200
and even-handed your story is 
because once certain conclusions

817
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,300
that are in there, get 
interpreted by the people and 

818
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:16,200
get mixed in with their 
preconceived, notions about 

819
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,000
things. 
It's just, it's out of our 

820
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,700
control as the media and and it 
really struck me when I was, 

821
00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:24,400
when I was prepping for the 
episode with Alex and I went 

822
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,900
back and I read all the stories 
about Russia gate that you were 

823
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:31,000
by lined on many of And I found 
the stories to be very 

824
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,300
even-handed and and not alarmist
and just sort of laying out what

825
00:43:34,300 --> 00:43:37,100
was in Facebook's report that 
they were going to be 

826
00:43:37,300 --> 00:43:40,500
demonstrating to to Congress. 
And that's the same of the New 

827
00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:43,700
York Times and the journal and 
the garden, all these places. 

828
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:49,000
But then we see an article by a 
very smart journalists columnist

829
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:52,100
Margaret Sullivan, who 
completely Miss interprets, the 

830
00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:54,500
conclusion of that report who we
love. 

831
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:56,900
I feel like we've had to 
criticize her but most of her 

832
00:43:56,900 --> 00:44:00,100
work, well, we think Great. 
I said she's smart. 

833
00:44:00,100 --> 00:44:03,200
Like I think she's great, but 
she misinterpreted the report 

834
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,800
and said, we need to come to the
realization that had Facebook 

835
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,700
not have allowed you know, 
whatever mishegoss on the part 

836
00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:14,200
of the, you know, Russians to 
post like you know, spend eighty

837
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,000
thousand dollars promoting 
fault. 

838
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,400
Fake articles that Donald Trump 
would not be president, which is

839
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,700
not something that Facebook's 
report ever said, there's no 

840
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:23,500
backing of that. 
And I think what happened here, 

841
00:44:23,700 --> 00:44:26,000
and what probably happened so 
often with Facebook, is that a 

842
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:32,000
well-reasoned and nuanced story?
Gets out there and gets, you 

843
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,700
know, mixed up in all of the 
personal issues that people have

844
00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:38,300
with the government, with 
Facebook, with Mark Zuckerberg, 

845
00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:41,100
with whatever. 
And and I think it's and I think

846
00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:43,200
this is what people don't 
recognize about the media. 

847
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,500
When I say people, I mean, like 
Tech critics is that there's 

848
00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:48,700
only so much that we can do, 
because once the sort of stories

849
00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:50,900
out there, it's out of our 
control, it was always amazing 

850
00:44:50,900 --> 00:44:54,100
to me, you know, I covered a lot
of uber, I wrote a lot of the 

851
00:44:54,100 --> 00:44:57,900
negative stories about Uber, and
then I come across people that 

852
00:44:57,900 --> 00:45:03,300
had such Such a Negative view of
Hubert, I didn't share, you know

853
00:45:03,300 --> 00:45:06,400
what I mean? 
Like it is just amazing with 

854
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,300
like, you're not. 
I mean, obviously there are 

855
00:45:08,300 --> 00:45:12,500
other things and people have 
different sort of moral calculus

856
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:15,800
as but it is interesting that 
like people can read your body 

857
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,400
of work and then come to just a 
much more like yeah, like a 

858
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:26,300
finite and a vehement sort of 
just an activist crowd, has a 

859
00:45:26,308 --> 00:45:29,000
different sentiment than like 
reporters do. 

860
00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:32,600
Do and read this stuff was such 
like a lens. 

861
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,900
I think what Tom said, it's sort
of speaks to two things. 

862
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,600
One, the idea of the media, the 
problem with the media and the 

863
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,200
reason I hate the moniker, the 
media is that it clumps 

864
00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:47,400
reporters and columnists into 
one group. 

865
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,900
When reporters and columnists 
are almost always working at 

866
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:51,600
Cross purposes, right? 
Call us. 

867
00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:54,500
Call columnists, like, I had 
this debate with a friend of 

868
00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:57,900
mine, who's a, he's a columnist,
and a thought leader here in 

869
00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:00,500
Washington DC. 
And he has like very little 

870
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:02,400
regard for reporting. 
He thinks it's dumb. 

871
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,600
He thinks that he's the person 
who controls the conversation, 

872
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,900
which is fine, because actually 
I kind of agree with this 

873
00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:09,000
assessment. 
But the thing is, is he wouldn't

874
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,700
be able to control a 
conversation. 

875
00:46:10,700 --> 00:46:13,800
If reporters were not mining 
facts and bringing them to him. 

876
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:22,100
To converse about that said, his
job is something that hurts and 

877
00:46:22,100 --> 00:46:25,300
I would say hurts his job. 
What it will do is, we'll take 

878
00:46:25,300 --> 00:46:28,000
attention away from the facts on
the ground because he is running

879
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,100
it through his Worldview 
machine. 

880
00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:34,800
So the idea that the media is 
this monolith includes both 

881
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,900
commentary and Reporting. 
I think it's horrifying, but 

882
00:46:38,900 --> 00:46:41,800
there seems to be, like, no way 
to change it like we can like 

883
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,300
what do we do to undo this knot 
in the age of Twitter too? 

884
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,300
Yeah, right. 
It's like we're all the media. 

885
00:46:46,300 --> 00:46:48,700
It's like that Gary stronger 
book, super sad. 

886
00:46:48,700 --> 00:46:51,000
True love, story, are you Media 
or you credit? 

887
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,000
Like, it's like this horrifying 
World anyway. 

888
00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:56,300
And then, the other thing is 
gas. 

889
00:46:56,300 --> 00:46:57,900
So you have this like view of 
the media. 

890
00:46:58,100 --> 00:47:01,700
And then, I think the His view 
on Facebook, running it through 

891
00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:03,600
that machine. 
One of the reasons why we then 

892
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,800
start depending on these very 
lazy comparisons. 

893
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,900
Like the tobacco industry 
comparison is because it's like 

894
00:47:09,900 --> 00:47:13,900
one that everyone in the media 
seems to be able to be 

895
00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:16,200
comfortable with because there 
might be some reporting to Bear 

896
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,700
it out and it's like, easy for 
Abed writers to kind of use 

897
00:47:20,700 --> 00:47:23,700
because it's so visceral when 
they're writing a column, when 

898
00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:27,400
the tobacco, when those sorts of
comparisons are like incredibly 

899
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,600
lazy and make zero sense, Like 
at all, you know, tobacco 

900
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,700
company made cigarettes and push
them to people Facebook, created

901
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:37,600
some technology. 
But the product is made by Deepa

902
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:42,200
and me and Tom and Eric, we're 
the ones pushing toxic shit to 

903
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,100
one another. 
So the only way to you can stop 

904
00:47:45,100 --> 00:47:47,900
to back the tobacco industry, by
shutting down their factories. 

905
00:47:47,900 --> 00:47:50,400
The only way to stop Facebook is
to get all of us off the 

906
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,600
platform. 
That's totally different. 

907
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:55,000
Well, I don't know about that. 
Yeah. 

908
00:47:55,100 --> 00:47:58,200
Right algorithm I think, is, is 
a complex a fire there? 

909
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,100
I mean, like, yeah. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

910
00:48:00,100 --> 00:48:02,300
The algorithm has a lot of 
control, but at the end of the 

911
00:48:02,308 --> 00:48:04,200
day that people creating the 
real excitement. 

912
00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:06,700
I actually think, I mean, deep 
is reacting to this, but Katie's

913
00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:11,700
position is very far from. 
I think deeply you're just say, 

914
00:48:11,700 --> 00:48:15,700
simply that it's not. 
I think that might be giving 

915
00:48:15,700 --> 00:48:18,700
Facebook too much credit. 
I mean there is this really 

916
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,000
fascinating story that was in 
the original series. 

917
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,000
I wasn't involved in my 
colleague Keech road and it was 

918
00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:28,900
a, there's this Eastern European
political party that after face,

919
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,400
Book changed. 
Like it's news feed algorithm. 

920
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,200
They complain to the company and
said listen, like before it was 

921
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,200
like 5050 - positive but ever 
since you've changed the 

922
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,700
algorithm like we can't, we like
the positive stuff isn't 

923
00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:42,900
reaching. 
So we've now shifted to, I think

924
00:48:42,900 --> 00:48:47,500
80/20 and like that's an example
of like that's not coming, 

925
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:52,500
that's a party responding to the
to, you know, whatever the 

926
00:48:52,500 --> 00:48:55,000
record books, whatever the news 
feed algorithm is promoting, 

927
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,100
right? 
You look at these top Facebook 

928
00:48:57,100 --> 00:48:58,900
content, producers. 
I mean, they're all spam. 

929
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,100
It's right. 
It's clear that if you want to 

930
00:49:01,107 --> 00:49:04,400
get engagement on Facebook, I 
mean, buzz buzz. 

931
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,000
Feeds whole Insight was like 
chasing the algorithm. 

932
00:49:08,100 --> 00:49:10,000
You know what? 
Like I mean obviously there. 

933
00:49:10,100 --> 00:49:12,800
Oh yeah, I'm not, I'm not I 
guess what I meant by. 

934
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,600
That was just that by having 
that kind of lazy comparison, 

935
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,000
what it does is it distracts us 
from any kind of real solution 

936
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,600
because the comparison implies a
solution that does not apply to 

937
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,000
this industry. 
Well I don't think the 

938
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,700
comparison is the solution for 
tobacco was like well just shut 

939
00:49:28,700 --> 00:49:30,500
down. 
In the factories and don't make 

940
00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:33,100
the cigarettes anymore. 
So if you're if you're going 

941
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:37,000
down that road, well that's not 
the sky, that solution was that 

942
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,300
we make the tobacco companies, 
try to wean people off their 

943
00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:42,700
product and there is a 
similarity know that the 

944
00:49:42,700 --> 00:49:44,900
solution was actually making the
product too expensive. 

945
00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:47,200
The solution was making the 
product very, very expensive. 

946
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,000
That was the solution was a 
market solution. 

947
00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:51,800
Well, making the product make it
less addictive, which Facebook 

948
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,000
could do. 
There are a lot of thing. 

949
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,600
I like, but I like them, but 
they don't, they never made 

950
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,400
tobacco's. 
They never made tobacco. 

951
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:58,900
Less addictive, trust me. 
Will you? 

952
00:49:59,700 --> 00:50:04,500
Is regulated, right? 
Well, the amount of nicotine was

953
00:50:04,900 --> 00:50:07,500
was brought down but the never 
made it less addictive. 

954
00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:09,400
That is a ridiculous thing to 
say. 

955
00:50:09,900 --> 00:50:12,800
But the idea that using the 
metaphor will get you to 

956
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,900
Solution on social media, I 
think is just wrong. 

957
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,500
It's wrong. 
And yeah, you know, this story 

958
00:50:19,500 --> 00:50:24,600
and particular, I think really 
sparked those comparisons, but I

959
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,200
just think it's an opening. 
Look, we want to know more, 

960
00:50:27,300 --> 00:50:28,900
right? 
Like I could you guys introduce 

961
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,900
This that metaphor, is that in 
the? 

962
00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:34,700
I do not think we did introduce 
that metaphor. 

963
00:50:35,100 --> 00:50:38,500
It was an enterprising. 
Op-ed columnist, who read the 

964
00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:39,500
story? 
Yeah. 

965
00:50:39,500 --> 00:50:42,700
If you did, we can take it out. 
But, you know, it's so 

966
00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:47,300
Blumenthal set it in his, in a 
comment to us. 

967
00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:50,800
Marc benioff, said it before you
guys even realize, remember, oh,

968
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:52,600
that's pretty awesome. 
I mean, I don't know if it was 

969
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,900
the first one but his was after 
Trump's election. 

970
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,100
He because, you know, there was 
this period where all these Tech

971
00:50:57,100 --> 00:51:00,500
leaders that were not social. 
A company's per say we're trying

972
00:51:00,500 --> 00:51:02,500
to differentiate themselves from
me. 

973
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:06,800
Tim Cook, most memorably but 
benioff also which we I think 

974
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:10,400
under plays the fact that you 
know, Salesforce is my Twitter. 

975
00:51:10,500 --> 00:51:12,200
Yeah. 
What else was he just a super 

976
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,900
addictive product. 
I mean, I love myself can't get 

977
00:51:15,900 --> 00:51:20,300
enough of my sales for us but 
um, but yeah, I know, right? 

978
00:51:20,300 --> 00:51:22,600
They were gonna be in that game.
He was gonna buy the worst one 

979
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,700
of them all there. 
We get a by like the absolute 

980
00:51:24,700 --> 00:51:29,300
like pure distilled Cesspool of 
the internet, which is I'm gonna

981
00:51:29,300 --> 00:51:34,700
ask her cascoon doing question. 
I feel like we reporters You 

982
00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:37,200
know, I don't know. 
There's a strong, especially if 

983
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,800
you work for a big Outlet to not
want to say like that. 

984
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,700
The story is fully like are 
tight like you wouldn't change 

985
00:51:43,700 --> 00:51:45,700
anything. 
Like there are a lot of 

986
00:51:45,700 --> 00:51:47,900
institutional. 
I do think of failure of media 

987
00:51:47,900 --> 00:51:49,800
is, there's a lot of 
institutional pressure to say, 

988
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,100
like stand by every word of the 
story. 

989
00:51:52,100 --> 00:51:54,500
We don't change, you know? 
But is there anything in the 

990
00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:57,400
Instagram story that you would 
do differently? 

991
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,700
Now, sort of just watching all 
play out knowing that you 

992
00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:04,000
probably can't say yes but I 
mean I do think it's an issue 

993
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,400
with Media that we will never 
say yes. 

994
00:52:07,100 --> 00:52:11,100
I don't, you know, I wish I was,
I wish had come across more. 

995
00:52:11,100 --> 00:52:14,000
That I can, I can I look, I wish
it and come across at this was 

996
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,400
based on, not just like one or 
two internal studies, but 

997
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:22,000
several, I wish it went to come 
across more, was that? 

998
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:23,600
Yeah. 
There's a range of studies. 

999
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,200
Some of them were small, some of
them bow included, tens of 

1000
00:52:26,207 --> 00:52:30,800
thousands of people. 
I wish that it really is somehow

1001
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:35,500
like the idea that we wasn't our
our findings, right? 

1002
00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:40,900
Like we aren't quoting ourselves
and we're not put, we're using 

1003
00:52:40,900 --> 00:52:45,000
the researchers descriptions. 
This is what they think it is. 

1004
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,800
I wish that I could write it 
sort of a hard response. 

1005
00:52:47,900 --> 00:52:50,800
Facebook's is sort of like, it's
our research and it's bad, 

1006
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:52,800
right? 
That sort of their defense, 

1007
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:54,800
right? 
And it's like, then why in 

1008
00:52:54,900 --> 00:52:57,900
should you be headlining 
research that they think is, 

1009
00:52:57,900 --> 00:53:00,600
like, pretty weak, but do they 
think it's weak? 

1010
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,000
And I guess the thing is, is 
that we're looking at five 

1011
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,600
different studies, and I think 
it's also that point in this One

1012
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:12,600
Direction that's where I and I 
thought this is my thing. 

1013
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:14,100
I that I really wish to come 
across. 

1014
00:53:14,100 --> 00:53:16,700
It's just like it. 
Like even if the Steve's, even 

1015
00:53:16,700 --> 00:53:18,300
if all these studies are really 
inconclusive. 

1016
00:53:18,300 --> 00:53:21,400
What's really important is what 
how does the company respond? 

1017
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:27,100
How does the company like push 
get decide to to address these 

1018
00:53:27,100 --> 00:53:30,400
issues, maybe they do a big deep
study and they find it's a 

1019
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,900
really small number of people, 
but you remember that even in 

1020
00:53:33,900 --> 00:53:36,600
their Public statements 
afterwards or like you know even

1021
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,600
one person who feels that this 
all started on on Instagram is 

1022
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,400
too many right. 
So like there's their standard 

1023
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,500
is quite high right? 
They're not. 

1024
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,200
You know it's not and how 
they're responding is shutting 

1025
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,400
down all the teams right or just
for our reader. 

1026
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:53,200
Well they outdid the controls 
right. 

1027
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,300
I mean that happened a couple 
weeks ago but that's something 

1028
00:53:55,300 --> 00:53:59,900
they could have done years ago. 
Yeah yeah so they do control 

1029
00:53:59,900 --> 00:54:02,200
type. 
If a pause they put a pause on 

1030
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,700
Instagram kids although they 
haven't committed to a We 

1031
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:06,900
killing it, right? 
So they're still thinking of 

1032
00:54:06,908 --> 00:54:12,300
going forward with that, but 
they're going to go slow and you

1033
00:54:12,308 --> 00:54:14,900
know, Adam Masseria was in front
of Congress and there's there's 

1034
00:54:14,900 --> 00:54:17,300
something there have been some 
changes, they've been some 

1035
00:54:17,300 --> 00:54:20,600
discussions, you're seeing the 
story, the critical part of how 

1036
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,900
they responded just to spell 
that out. 

1037
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,100
The part that we've outlined in 
our story is when presented with

1038
00:54:27,100 --> 00:54:28,900
different options. 
They picked an option that 

1039
00:54:28,900 --> 00:54:32,000
didn't necessarily have the 
biggest mental health impact, 

1040
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,100
but did have a PR impact. 
Hi. 

1041
00:54:34,300 --> 00:54:37,500
Ding likes, right? 
But there's a way to frame that 

1042
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,900
as sort of they're doing with 
the media in Katie's version 

1043
00:54:41,900 --> 00:54:43,300
where it's like this chattering 
class. 

1044
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:45,700
That's not very informed, not 
like necessary with the beat 

1045
00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:49,600
reporters would say they should 
do what. 

1046
00:54:50,100 --> 00:54:52,400
So right. 
I mean in some ways like the 

1047
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,800
public and the media chattering 
class would have thought, 

1048
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,800
removing likes was the best idea
and in some ways the media 

1049
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:04,100
pushes them to to what seems 
intuitively useful rather. 

1050
00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:07,500
What scientists researchers or 
smartphone? 

1051
00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:09,600
Right? 
Think is useful and I mean, 

1052
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,700
that's like all the points I 
said that, just now that I 

1053
00:55:12,700 --> 00:55:15,500
wanted that, I wish you'd come 
across more work in the story 

1054
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:17,700
but there and there's a lot of 
nuance in the store and there's 

1055
00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:20,800
a I was also surprised by the 
internal research that showed 

1056
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,100
that removing likes had. 
No real wasn't really gonna make

1057
00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:26,300
an impact of that was 
counterintuitive to me. 

1058
00:55:26,300 --> 00:55:29,100
Yeah. 
But it means that's the 

1059
00:55:29,100 --> 00:55:33,300
conclusion and you know, I just 
wish that I do wish as even 

1060
00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:34,500
though it's part of our story. 
Tori. 

1061
00:55:34,500 --> 00:55:36,800
It's like the part that didn't 
like a lot of people focus on 

1062
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:38,500
other aspects of it. 
I think those are really 

1063
00:55:38,500 --> 00:55:40,400
important and I don't want them 
to get lost. 

1064
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,300
Right? 
And, you know, I mean, to finish

1065
00:55:42,300 --> 00:55:44,900
up on the tobacco thing too. 
I think there's, there's 

1066
00:55:44,900 --> 00:55:48,300
actually nuance and bringing it 
up not again because Facebook 

1067
00:55:48,300 --> 00:55:50,500
causes cancer. 
But again, because this was 

1068
00:55:50,500 --> 00:55:53,100
internal research, that the 
company ended up sort of 

1069
00:55:53,100 --> 00:55:56,700
ignoring because it was 
inconvenient to their, to their 

1070
00:55:56,700 --> 00:56:00,200
bottom line, or it'll to them. 
And again, I think that that's 

1071
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,300
one of those things where it 
actually is a good metaphor in 

1072
00:56:02,300 --> 00:56:03,700
that sense. 
But it's not. 

1073
00:56:03,700 --> 00:56:06,900
It's not that The accepted 
interpretation of it which 

1074
00:56:06,900 --> 00:56:09,300
almost makes you think. 
It's maybe not a great metaphor 

1075
00:56:09,300 --> 00:56:11,800
but I do want to make sure that 
we get to one quick thing here 

1076
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,200
because it's super relevant the 
Deepa. 

1077
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,900
So what's your thoughts on 
Francis Haugen and and her 

1078
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,100
becoming of a media, a figure 
because you guys had her 

1079
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:23,000
Anonymous or the research was 
given to you by an anonymous 

1080
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:27,300
person and she is the engine 
behind all the reporting behind 

1081
00:56:27,300 --> 00:56:29,100
it. 
And then on the last day she 

1082
00:56:29,100 --> 00:56:31,500
sort of like steps forward and 
it's going to be testifying for 

1083
00:56:31,500 --> 00:56:34,900
Congress and now you know is on 
the The, I don't know if the 

1084
00:56:34,900 --> 00:56:37,400
cover but had, you know, photo 
shoot for Vogue and she's got a 

1085
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,500
rival book with the Wall Street 
Journal now, they're 

1086
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:43,500
competitors. 
I don't think that's not. 

1087
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:48,800
Yeah, because the Journal of the
journal won't Explore her like 

1088
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,300
beliefs and crypto. 
For example, were you surprised 

1089
00:56:52,300 --> 00:56:55,700
that she decided to come forward
in the way that she decided to 

1090
00:56:55,700 --> 00:56:57,600
come forward? 
And how do you think her 

1091
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,900
becoming a figure impacted the 
the interpretation of the 

1092
00:57:01,900 --> 00:57:08,800
studies that she made? 
Yeah, I was, I surprised by the 

1093
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,600
way, she came forward. 
I mean, I, I, it's what is the 

1094
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:16,500
playbook for coming forward 
after you, you know? 

1095
00:57:16,500 --> 00:57:19,200
Like, is there a parallel? 
Like, I guess I didn't, I didn't

1096
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:20,600
know what to expect. 
Yeah, okay. 

1097
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,300
I mean, I didn't really know 
what to expect. 

1098
00:57:22,300 --> 00:57:25,300
I didn't really know that like 
Chelsea Manning also. 

1099
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:31,800
What, what it would look like 
for somebody who had what kind 

1100
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:36,400
of copied all these different 
documents, and And like how she 

1101
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:37,400
would? 
Yeah, I got it. 

1102
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,200
I didn't really know how she 
would come forward and think 

1103
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,000
about, and present herself. 
So I didn't it's hard to say 

1104
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,900
whether or not anything 
surprised me because I like I 

1105
00:57:45,900 --> 00:57:47,900
would just truly just had no 
expectations. 

1106
00:57:47,900 --> 00:57:52,800
I don't, I don't, you know, 
think I am your second question.

1107
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,000
I'm just thinking, like, how 
does it change the effect of the

1108
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:59,300
actual? 
And I've talked to, I've been 

1109
00:57:59,300 --> 00:58:03,800
talking to a lot of people, what
kind of activists who are on the

1110
00:58:03,808 --> 00:58:09,200
left and people who are on the 
right, and a lot of people who 

1111
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,200
believe that Facebook needs to 
be broken up. 

1112
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:14,000
And one thing that's been very 
interesting is, like, at least 

1113
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,500
when they're talking to me, 
what, there's a distinction 

1114
00:58:16,500 --> 00:58:20,600
being drawn between her the 
figure and the documents you. 

1115
00:58:21,300 --> 00:58:23,400
Right? 
Like there are she doesn't think

1116
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:24,700
that Facebook needs to be broken
up. 

1117
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:27,600
That's not, you know, she 
actually thinks that would be 

1118
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,100
bad for society, etc, etc. 
She should make sure like a 

1119
00:58:31,107 --> 00:58:33,500
complicated figure for a lot of 
the maximalist. 

1120
00:58:33,500 --> 00:58:36,000
Exactly. 
And, you know, antitrust 

1121
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:40,200
legislation is like one of those
things that there's by part. 

1122
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,100
There are plenty of, by people 
in both the right and the left 

1123
00:58:44,100 --> 00:58:47,400
who think that Facebook should 
be broken up, should be reined 

1124
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,700
in all these different ways. 
And, and You know, she doesn't 

1125
00:58:51,700 --> 00:58:56,900
comport with those beliefs and I
think that there is a like so I 

1126
00:58:56,900 --> 00:58:59,500
think that that that is that 
makes it really complicated but 

1127
00:58:59,500 --> 00:59:02,000
like the actual documents 
themselves and that's what 

1128
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,400
distinguishes her I think from 
basically everybody else has 

1129
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,800
come, there been a lot of 
Facebook dissenters she's come 

1130
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:11,300
out with with her own opinions 
and a description of her 

1131
00:59:11,300 --> 00:59:14,800
experiences which I think are 
really interesting but the but 

1132
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:18,000
she's got documents. 
There are a lot of hard evidence

1133
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,600
of what company internal 
companies. 

1134
00:59:20,900 --> 00:59:23,900
And so like around these issues 
and I think plenty of people 

1135
00:59:23,900 --> 00:59:26,000
just separate that they're like,
you know what, she's that's 

1136
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:27,200
great. 
Thank you so much for the 

1137
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,000
documents. 
Did she betray The Wall Street 

1138
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,300
Journal? 
I think that Francis had always 

1139
00:59:31,300 --> 00:59:39,600
wanted these documents to go out
there and to be kind of read and

1140
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,900
interpreted and understood by as
many people as possible. 

1141
00:59:43,300 --> 00:59:47,900
I'm pretty grateful. 
She gave it to us first and let 

1142
00:59:47,900 --> 00:59:50,400
us run with it for as long as we
did. 

1143
00:59:51,100 --> 00:59:55,000
I mean it's a fun conversation 
but like you know, think deeply 

1144
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,800
about some of these Facebook 
issues on just pure personality 

1145
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:00,900
level. 
Just like some fun Facebook. 

1146
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:05,100
Like I know, obviously if you 
had the full picture, there 

1147
01:00:05,100 --> 01:00:07,900
would be a profile of this, 
maybe you have to hold back some

1148
01:00:07,900 --> 01:00:12,700
but like your general sense of 
the Mark and Cheryl relationship

1149
01:00:12,700 --> 01:00:16,300
and then Marc Andreessen, and 
Peter teal to the extent, you 

1150
01:00:16,300 --> 01:00:19,600
can you have any observations 
about the role they play on the 

1151
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,800
board just like the Fascinating 
People and what you're sort of 

1152
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,400
gut sense of how, how involved 
they are right now, what you're,

1153
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:30,100
what you would tell us. 
Yeah, I mean I've been reporting

1154
01:00:30,100 --> 01:00:35,300
on both of those topics and it 
does seem like and the times has

1155
01:00:35,300 --> 01:00:36,600
done some good reporting on the 
to. 

1156
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:42,500
It's sort of the Mark and Cheryl
partnership was always like the 

1157
01:00:42,500 --> 01:00:45,600
co-ceo thing. 
And then it feels like after the

1158
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,900
2016 election. 
There was just a loss of a loss 

1159
01:00:48,900 --> 01:00:50,500
of trust or something. 
There is a fee. 

1160
01:00:50,700 --> 01:00:54,400
Feeling of, oh well politics is 
supposed to be Cheryl's job, 

1161
01:00:54,500 --> 01:00:56,700
right? 
And she maybe dropped the ball, 

1162
01:00:56,700 --> 01:00:59,200
but is that a reasonable 
expectation and picked the wrong

1163
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:04,700
team and was going to leave for 
the Hillary Clinton rice? 

1164
01:01:04,700 --> 01:01:07,700
And this was, this is like the 
Dark Universe for her. 

1165
01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:11,300
Like you're not supposed to 
happen this The Darkest Timeline

1166
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,700
and obviously I celebrate her 
for picking the wrong team, you 

1167
01:01:14,700 --> 01:01:17,600
know? 
I mean but as a pure sort of 

1168
01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:20,500
cynical sort of calculating move
it. 

1169
01:01:20,700 --> 01:01:24,400
Was a loser and but there is a 
real question to be asked, like 

1170
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,200
why was that her job? 
Why was it all left up to her 

1171
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,300
anyway, right? 
Like that, that isn't really a 

1172
01:01:29,300 --> 01:01:31,300
realistic way of structuring a 
company. 

1173
01:01:31,300 --> 01:01:34,700
And so what I think you've seen 
is rather than like a co-ceo 

1174
01:01:34,700 --> 01:01:36,900
thing. 
She's just become one of the 

1175
01:01:36,900 --> 01:01:39,900
Lieutenant's. 
One of the the one of the things

1176
01:01:39,900 --> 01:01:47,300
that we got through the 
documentation is, Like or charts

1177
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:49,000
right? 
Like see ability to see. 

1178
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:54,200
So one of the so we did this 
graphic in October that showed 

1179
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:58,200
that over time Cheryl's, share 
of the company has actually 

1180
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:00,700
shrunk right. 
She's got cheese to have like a 

1181
01:02:00,700 --> 01:02:03,300
lot of people, I don't remember 
the numbers anymore, but like 

1182
01:02:03,300 --> 01:02:06,600
she's to have a big chunk of the
company and like, over the last 

1183
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,200
five years it's gotten smaller. 
And like what does that tell you

1184
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:10,800
about their Partnerships and 
right? 

1185
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:16,100
And so that I think that that 
era of the market Cheryl is sort

1186
01:02:16,100 --> 01:02:20,400
of over and it's now just its 
Mark right there moments. 

1187
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:22,700
During the Cambridge analytic, 
that's saying we're Cheryl would

1188
01:02:22,700 --> 01:02:24,700
tell her friends. 
We reported this, I think other 

1189
01:02:24,700 --> 01:02:26,800
people reported this. 
She thought she was thing get 

1190
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:32,500
fired because Mark was really 
angry about the way in, which 

1191
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:38,100
the company was being portrayed 
in in media and press whatever. 

1192
01:02:38,700 --> 01:02:42,600
And I think that's the cell is 
just like interesting to me 

1193
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,000
because like there's a lot of 
things that Facebook app. 

1194
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,500
Currently thinks her like a lot 
of Facebook executive thing for 

1195
01:02:47,500 --> 01:02:50,600
like, comms problems. 
And like, hey, if you'd only 

1196
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:55,500
just like explain this properly,
then the Press would get it, and

1197
01:02:55,500 --> 01:02:59,700
then they would get off her 
back, but Some of these issues 

1198
01:02:59,700 --> 01:03:01,700
are not comms problems. 
A lot of these issues our 

1199
01:03:01,700 --> 01:03:04,300
product issues, right? 
And like there's nothing I don't

1200
01:03:04,300 --> 01:03:08,400
know what a common person can 
really do to like to solve for 

1201
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,500
product issue and I think 
there's like that continuing 

1202
01:03:11,500 --> 01:03:17,900
tension continued that is there 
but you know and I don't know. 

1203
01:03:17,900 --> 01:03:21,000
It just does feel like Cheryl 
has just defeated a lot like 

1204
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,300
she's really receded. 
She's in the back, she's not his

1205
01:03:23,500 --> 01:03:26,500
coat like partnership anymore. 
At some point during the last 

1206
01:03:26,500 --> 01:03:27,800
few years, she's just say 
something. 

1207
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:30,700
Started to say something, or at 
least people started to tell me.

1208
01:03:30,700 --> 01:03:33,500
She was saying things like, I 
serve at the pleasure of Mark 

1209
01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:38,900
sad. 
That's always a good. 

1210
01:03:38,900 --> 01:03:41,700
Like he's yeah. 
I mean that's basically what 

1211
01:03:41,700 --> 01:03:43,800
advisors say which right that's 
her role. 

1212
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:47,400
Now is incredibly diminished 
from the lean in days. 

1213
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,900
Do you have a Peter teal Marc 
Andreessen take? 

1214
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,700
Oh yeah. 
They teal in particular, I don't

1215
01:03:54,700 --> 01:03:57,800
have like the strongest read on 
on Entry sins, roll. 

1216
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,400
It does feel like he's I mean 
just from the title of your 

1217
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:04,100
podcast, you know. 
He's a Mark Zuckerberg booster 

1218
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,000
right now while they're well. 
They're deep in web three 

1219
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:08,900
though. 
At like Chris Dixon is on 

1220
01:04:08,900 --> 01:04:13,100
Twitter shitting on web to while
Marc Andreessen is on the board 

1221
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:16,900
of Facebook, they don't name 
Facebook, but to me, there is a 

1222
01:04:16,908 --> 01:04:19,700
sort of, I mean, that's the 
magic of Andresen that somehow 

1223
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,700
don't know. 
Now, we're seeing Jack Dorsey 

1224
01:04:21,700 --> 01:04:24,500
and people sort of fight back 
against it but that they could 

1225
01:04:24,500 --> 01:04:27,800
simultaneously have been 
responsible or heavily involved.

1226
01:04:27,900 --> 01:04:32,500
And in web to while arguing, 
that web 3 is an indictment of 

1227
01:04:32,500 --> 01:04:35,700
web to is mystified using 
Facebook, also trying to 

1228
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,800
graduate like, isn't aren't 
there, right? 

1229
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,700
Like I don't know, but it may 
not be a lot and it's, that's 

1230
01:04:42,700 --> 01:04:45,900
the kind of thing that I think 
Marc Andreessen has been has 

1231
01:04:45,900 --> 01:04:49,000
also just kind of gotten away. 
Not, you know, he said a lot of 

1232
01:04:49,008 --> 01:04:50,900
things that do remember the 
whole India thing. 

1233
01:04:50,900 --> 01:04:51,900
Yeah. 
Oh yeah. 

1234
01:04:52,700 --> 01:04:55,900
Now where he's like a something 
about well, like like think it's

1235
01:04:55,900 --> 01:04:59,300
a, oh, how did Independence 
workout for your economy India? 

1236
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:03,300
Like, when, when Facebook's 
internet.org got cut, like, 

1237
01:05:03,300 --> 01:05:07,100
kicked off the kicked out of the
country and ain't there, he had 

1238
01:05:07,100 --> 01:05:11,000
to like deleted asshole Twitter 
and then more storms are ecology

1239
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,700
Market to make an apology. 
And you don't know core things 

1240
01:05:13,700 --> 01:05:16,900
like did Marc Andreessen support
Donald Trump? 

1241
01:05:16,900 --> 01:05:20,200
Like, I feel like we don't have,
there isn't a definitive answer?

1242
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:21,900
Like, what? 
I don't know that isn't he is 

1243
01:05:21,900 --> 01:05:25,900
avoided Idea to an extent that 
we don't have clear answers 

1244
01:05:25,900 --> 01:05:30,000
about huge, huge things about 
what about teal though? 

1245
01:05:30,100 --> 01:05:32,100
What do you have on him? 
I think Tails interesting. 

1246
01:05:32,100 --> 01:05:35,200
Yeah but he'll we do at 
morita-ya to is definitely 

1247
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:39,100
interesting teals one of these 
like there's always like rumor 

1248
01:05:39,100 --> 01:05:42,100
as kind of circulating the teal 
wants to leave the board. 

1249
01:05:42,100 --> 01:05:46,600
You know that eels like a 
disillusion but he stays on the 

1250
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:54,400
board and he is and he is like 
as far as our reporting goes, 

1251
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:58,200
he's been influential, right? 
I mean, he is incorrect. 

1252
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:04,100
There was a point when Mark had 
our Facebook had a couple of 

1253
01:06:04,100 --> 01:06:06,400
board members who wanted to 
create like an independent 

1254
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:09,000
committee that would report to 
the board. 

1255
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,600
And I kind of think through all 
the different, like, risks and 

1256
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,600
issues and whatever that 
Facebook was going to, that 

1257
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:19,100
might impair or Facebook. 
And, you know, because the board

1258
01:06:19,100 --> 01:06:21,200
said, no, right? 
Because this wouldn't report to 

1259
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:23,400
mark, it would report to this. 
Pennant committee would be 

1260
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:27,100
outside of his control deal. 
You know, are reporting in our 

1261
01:06:27,100 --> 01:06:30,600
understanding is a big reason 
why Mark has been a big 

1262
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:34,400
encourager of Mark, maintaining 
that kind of control and making 

1263
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:38,300
sure that he's sort of at the 
center of everything right? 

1264
01:06:38,300 --> 01:06:41,000
He doesn't. 
And I think there's that's very 

1265
01:06:41,100 --> 01:06:44,300
powerful, interesting somewhat 
mystifying relationship it 

1266
01:06:44,300 --> 01:06:47,400
because I'd love to know more. 
So it's interesting too because 

1267
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:49,900
I've heard the, you know, teal 
is going to be moving here to 

1268
01:06:49,900 --> 01:06:53,800
Washington, and he does still 
have A lot of influence that he 

1269
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:58,700
managed to grow during the Trump
era here with a lot of people 

1270
01:06:58,700 --> 01:07:02,600
who will be making decisions 
about what to do around social 

1271
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:04,400
media companies. 
And I wonder if that will change

1272
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:09,200
his relationship with Mark 
improve his relationship with 

1273
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:12,300
Mark, make them closer. 
If he continues to try to become

1274
01:07:12,300 --> 01:07:15,200
a Washington player that was Max
Shopkin who we've also had on 

1275
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:19,400
this podcast his argument was 
yeah that Peter Thiel is only 

1276
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:22,700
going to become more politically
influential that this is The 

1277
01:07:22,700 --> 01:07:26,600
beginning. 
I'm not sure I'm convinced of 

1278
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:29,300
that yet but it's a provocative 
thesis. 

1279
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:32,300
Well if you're a Mark 
Zuckerberg, why not just keep 

1280
01:07:32,300 --> 01:07:34,900
him close because that's that 
could be a very valuable 

1281
01:07:34,900 --> 01:07:37,500
relationship for you. 
And you know Peter also remember

1282
01:07:37,500 --> 01:07:40,700
Peter was there at the beginning
a like he knew Mark way back 

1283
01:07:40,700 --> 01:07:42,200
when right? 
He's the first investor one of 

1284
01:07:42,207 --> 01:07:46,200
the First Investors in Facebook 
and big believer and legitimize.

1285
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:49,900
Ur of the the company and Mark 
is loyal. 

1286
01:07:49,900 --> 01:07:54,600
Like I think he he appreciates 
and I I think values loyalty and

1287
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:57,100
I think that factors into their 
relationship as well. 

1288
01:07:57,300 --> 01:08:00,200
Again, these are sources, who 
described him. 

1289
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:04,100
Directly, I am not talk to Mark 
directly about this relationship

1290
01:08:04,100 --> 01:08:06,900
so and 20, let's actually end on
that note. 

1291
01:08:06,900 --> 01:08:10,300
So when's the last time you 
talked to Mark, what's what was 

1292
01:08:10,300 --> 01:08:13,300
your sense of sense of the man? 
And the way he views things, 

1293
01:08:14,900 --> 01:08:20,800
it's been a really long time, 
you know, I think when he talks 

1294
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:24,300
to, I didn't see you in the Any 
of the Instagram videos. 

1295
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:28,300
So you have been invited to go. 
Water are skiing with them, I'm 

1296
01:08:28,300 --> 01:08:31,000
sure just got lost. 
What do I think of him? 

1297
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,600
I mean, I think he's, I don't 
know. 

1298
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,500
He's not like, I never. 
So I know that there's this, 

1299
01:08:36,500 --> 01:08:41,500
this reputation for him, like, 
as a robotic and stuff, but I 

1300
01:08:41,500 --> 01:08:43,899
actually never, I don't know if 
I experienced that. 

1301
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,300
Thanks so much for coming on, 
much like Cheryl scenario. 

1302
01:08:47,500 --> 01:08:52,200
We serve at your pleasure as our
friend, so thank you. 

1303
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:55,500
For thank you for doing this a 
loyal listener. 

1304
01:08:56,300 --> 01:08:59,200
They yeah, love listening. 
I actually really do love 

1305
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:01,600
listening to this podcast and I 
don't say that about a lot of 

1306
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,200
podcasts which is interesting, 
given the fact they've had 

1307
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,399
multiple of gas and we ourselves
have dissected so many of the 

1308
01:09:07,399 --> 01:09:11,300
articles that you have done. 
And so I appreciate that you've 

1309
01:09:11,300 --> 01:09:13,500
continued to listen. 
Yeah. 

1310
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:15,700
Now no. 
Now she gets the opportunity, 

1311
01:09:15,700 --> 01:09:17,899
you know, when you're like 
reading a story and you're like 

1312
01:09:17,899 --> 01:09:20,500
shouting into nothing about like
your response to it. 

1313
01:09:20,500 --> 01:09:24,399
Now she is actually like I mean,
they're definitely have been a 

1314
01:09:24,407 --> 01:09:27,300
couple of moments where it like 
there is a like, you know, we're

1315
01:09:27,300 --> 01:09:30,100
someone was saying like well did
the Instagram thing is based on 

1316
01:09:30,100 --> 01:09:32,899
only like a couple of studies or
small. 

1317
01:09:32,899 --> 01:09:37,600
I wanted to be like, no, it was 
like five or six studies, one of

1318
01:09:37,608 --> 01:09:40,300
them, tens of thousands of 
people, but whatever. 

1319
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:42,200
So that's me shouting in fear 
now. 

1320
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:44,399
Thank you so much stupa. 
Thank you. 

1321
01:09:44,500 --> 01:09:45,800
Yeah. 
Thanks for having me guys. 

1322
01:09:58,700 --> 01:10:00,000
Goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1323
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,400
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1324
01:09:58,700 --> 01:10:00,000
Goodbye. 
Goodbye. 

1325
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,400
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye.