1
00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,040
Welcome to the Newcomer podcast.
I'm Eric, Newcomer. 

2
00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:11,240
And I'm Madeline Renbarger. 
Each week, Eric and I discuss 

3
00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:13,800
the VC deals and the drama that 
went down. 

4
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,000
Let's do it. 
Here we go. 

5
00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,040
Oh, a loyal supporter. 
Of the newcomer podcast, I, I 

6
00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,840
think our first advertiser and 
Christina the CEO has been on 

7
00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,800
the show anyway. 
Without further ado. 

8
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,680
You're a startup founder. 
Finding product market fit is 

9
00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,760
probably your number one 
priority. 

10
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,560
But to land bigger customers, 
you also need security 

11
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,000
compliance and obtaining your 
SoC. 

12
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,640
Two or ISO. 27 OO One 
certification can open those big

13
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,360
doors, but they take time and 
energy, pulling you away from 

14
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,880
building and shipping. 
That's where Vanta comes in. 

15
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,720
Vanta is the. 
All in one compliance solution, 

16
00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,160
helping start-ups like yours get
audit ready and build a strong 

17
00:00:57,160 --> 00:00:59,720
security foundation quickly and 
painlessly. 

18
00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:02,280
How Vanta? 
Automates the manual security 

19
00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,560
tasks that slow you down, 
helping you streamline your 

20
00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,240
audit. 
And the platform connects you 

21
00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,000
with trusted experts to build 
your program, auditors to get 

22
00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,160
you through audits quickly, and 
a marketplace for essentials 

23
00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,000
like pen testing. 
So whether you're closing your 

24
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,880
first deal or gearing up for 
growth, Phantom makes compliance

25
00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,320
easy. 
Join over 9000 companies, 

26
00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:27,880
including many Y Combinator and 
Techstar startups who trust 

27
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,280
Vanta. 
Simplify compliance and get 

28
00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:39,080
$1000 off at vanta.com/newcomer.
That's V anta.com/newcomer for 

29
00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:44,440
$1000 off. 
Eric, how is your vibe coding 

30
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,160
going? 
Well, first of all, you know 

31
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,320
Guillermo, the CEO of Versal, 
having lunch with him at Human 

32
00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,000
X, you know, it's like, oh, you 
could build everything in VO, 

33
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,120
their coders. 
So I started there. 

34
00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,760
Honestly, I got stuck in VO. 
What was the problem? 

35
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,720
It was like some button, you 
know, it was just like, make the

36
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,560
button work, you know, And it's 
like I was like start over. 

37
00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,479
I, I don't know, I, I just like 
got stuck. 

38
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,360
I moved to lovable. 
The buzziest company of the hour

39
00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,480
right now. 
On on the wing list we just 

40
00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:19,400
published and very buzzy company
that did the best. 

41
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,920
Honestly. 
Spoiler alert so far I have had 

42
00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:26,160
the most success with lovable, 
you know and, and for the 

43
00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,680
viewer, what listener I I don't 
know how to code at all like I, 

44
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,160
I don't know anything When I 
went to college, I studied 

45
00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,240
philosophy, I was into 
journalism. 

46
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,360
I had no idea that I would be 
covering tech ever did not even 

47
00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,280
cross my mind yeah. 
I did not take CS anyway, so 

48
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,360
know nothing about coding, but 
lovable, you know, created 

49
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,240
uploaded our design elements 
like our logo and so it borrowed

50
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,680
our green and made really a nice
website. 

51
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:55,280
You know, it's all the front 
end. 

52
00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,520
I don't want to say exactly what
I'm trying to build because it 

53
00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,520
is a real product that I would 
be excited about, but the front 

54
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,240
end sort of exists. 
There are still some buttons 

55
00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,520
that don't do exactly what I 
want, but I was able to add sort

56
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,160
of user comments and annotations
and cool. 

57
00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,520
So that was actually pretty 
amazing. 

58
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,800
So lovable was my like Oh my 
God, like this is magical. 

59
00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:19,600
Have you played with any of the 
others? 

60
00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,280
Have you touched Windsurf or any
of these guys? 

61
00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,040
I've not done Codium's windsurf,
though I should, and I haven't 

62
00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,960
done cursor, which honestly I 
feel like is maybe the elephant 

63
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:31,520
in the room I. 
Was gonna say if you're gonna do

64
00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,120
one it feels like you should do 
cursor. 

65
00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,240
My sense of cursor was that, you
know, it's used more by coders 

66
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,640
where lovable is used by, you 
know, plain text. 

67
00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:47,240
I went to Claude code anthropics
product, which is insane in that

68
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,240
like you use the terminal of 
your computer. 

69
00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,000
So you're like using like 
command lines on your Mac, which

70
00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:02,680
I doesn't seem good opsec, but I
have like anthropic over total 

71
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,600
access to my computer and it's 
much more autonomous like you 

72
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,880
describe and text what you want.
I was joking on Twitter that, 

73
00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,080
you know, coding with Claude 
code is just like hitting one. 

74
00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,240
Music keeps asking me like, do 
you want me to do this thing? 

75
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:19,160
It's like one, yes. 
And then going to Claude Online 

76
00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,360
just to sort of like, well, 
Claude code's asking me this, 

77
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:23,560
like, what do you think you 
know? 

78
00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:26,920
And so you're just sort of like 
facilitating a conversation 

79
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,640
between two bots. 
I did end up with a locally 

80
00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:35,840
hosted design website. 
Can't remember if buttons 

81
00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:39,080
worked. 
The design was way worse but it 

82
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,040
did feel insane in terms of the 
vibe. 

83
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,480
You did that all based on just 
plain English prompting, so you 

84
00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,960
can build a lot with just that. 
That is impressive. 

85
00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,680
Lovable was easier to like both 
lovable and VO. 

86
00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,240
I think you're like ripping, you
know, I take a screenshot of 

87
00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,840
some stuff, you know, it's like 
do do something like this, you 

88
00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:01,840
know. 
So there's definitely a risk 

89
00:05:01,840 --> 00:05:05,720
that it's a little derivative, 
but you move fast from an image.

90
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,720
Claude code. 
Yeah, I was text based, all of 

91
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:11,400
them. 
I have sort of lost team. 

92
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,040
I mean, it took a fair bit of my
time. 

93
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,760
It sounds like the front end 
stuff is working really well and

94
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,760
from you and other people I talk
to who play with it, but I 

95
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,440
wonder, I mean, the skeptical 
journalist in me is always like,

96
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:24,280
if you get 80% of the way there,
that's great. 

97
00:05:24,280 --> 00:05:27,760
But if the last point like 
doesn't work, is it, how amazing

98
00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,600
is it really? 
It's it seems like smoke and 

99
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:34,400
mirrors flashy demo day and the 
actual tech work still needs to 

100
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,640
be tinkered out, which you know,
we support. 

101
00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,240
Where's your read on where this 
actually is overall? 

102
00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,720
I mean, it it, you know, we 
experienced it with self driving

103
00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,280
cars. 
You can feel super close and 

104
00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:48,840
then you're actually far away. 
Now self driving cars seem to 

105
00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:51,080
have solved that. 
I think we'll talk about them a 

106
00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:52,800
little bit more later in the 
show. 

107
00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,680
But for a long time it was like,
oh, they're, they're nearly 

108
00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,840
here. 
And it's like, oh, I don't know,

109
00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:01,080
getting all the little details 
right matters. 

110
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,600
And with my experience, I don't 
even think it wasn't like an 

111
00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,840
8020 situation. 
I think it's more like a 2080 

112
00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:11,200
situation. 
It's like, yeah, I had the nice 

113
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:16,320
design and sort of I had the 
concept, but no back end. 

114
00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,640
I've no idea how to like host 
it. 

115
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,480
Some of the features weren't 
working. 

116
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,800
That almost sounds like a 
competitor to like a Figma or 

117
00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,800
like a design tool rather than 
like coding full websites. 

118
00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:29,840
Yeah, well, that's why people 
are saying vibe coding. 

119
00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,040
Yes, I think that you understand
this, but I think that's what a 

120
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,440
lot of people aren't in it don't
get. 

121
00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,720
It's like, yes, it's very 
compelling for the design part 

122
00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,520
of the website. 
So that's why it's fun with 

123
00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,000
front end. 
You're like, here's a 

124
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,000
screenshot, here's some assets 
like play around with it. 

125
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,960
Oh, I don't like that reshuffle 
it this way. 

126
00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,240
You know, that's where it's a 
threat to Figma because you know

127
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,640
it's well, you know, we're all 
playing around with you know 

128
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:58,040
what ChatGPT just came out with,
you know, on four O they're 

129
00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,760
really a Studio Ghibli machine. 
My Twitter feed is dominated by 

130
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,120
Studio Ghibli images and I have 
to say I've been building them. 

131
00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,480
I've sent them to my wife. 
Oh, did you make some of you and

132
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:17,040
your wife? 
Chachi BT This is a real reveal 

133
00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:18,800
here. 
Red pandas are my favorite 

134
00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,400
animal. 
It's realized that it should 

135
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,000
just like put red pandas, right?
Some of these images, I'll like 

136
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,080
them better. 
It's like, oh, here's a family 

137
00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,160
portrait and a red panda is in 
it. 

138
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,280
You know which. 
It's learning so much about you.

139
00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:34,720
Eric Yeah, exactly. 
I love it. 

140
00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:36,880
Which is what I want. 
I'm always shouting at it. 

141
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,760
Remember Me? 
We've talked many times before. 

142
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,640
Uses the context. 
All my things I've asked you and

143
00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,440
uploaded. 
This is the dream, you know? 

144
00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,680
We just get pandered to. 
Have you played with it yet? 

145
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:48,120
I've played a little bit with 
it. 

146
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,560
I'm more experienced with some 
of the older image generators. 

147
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,160
I was a really big fan of when 
like Dolly first launched. 

148
00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,960
I I spent like days on that just
prompting it with the most 

149
00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,000
random crap. 
I think I did like any of the 

150
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,040
memes with like trail Cam 
footage of someone in the woods 

151
00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,200
and make everything look like a 
grainy picture when that 

152
00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,560
actually became visible. 
So this I need to still play 

153
00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,640
with. 
You're like, I have to file my 

154
00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,320
draft. 
I don't know what I'm writing. 

155
00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:16,760
I wrote a piece earlier this 
week. 

156
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,560
You know, I get to play around, 
make little images for work. 

157
00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,960
The beauty of covering AI. 
I do since I've been kind of 

158
00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,680
spoiler alert for little future 
work talking to some people in 

159
00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,520
the legal tech world. 
Recently all of his image stuff 

160
00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,080
has been making me think a lot 
about copyright laws. 

161
00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:35,880
Are we just throwing those out 
at this point? 

162
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,880
Like the the Studio Ghibli stuff
is very clearly Studio Ghibli 

163
00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,200
style. 
And literally the CEO, Sam 

164
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,440
Altman is tweeting out like 
images of him in Studio Ghibli 

165
00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,280
profile. 
Picture Ghibli Altman. 

166
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,240
Right. 
Do they have a deal? 

167
00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,760
I assume not. 
No, I can't imagine. 

168
00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,520
Also, yeah, yeah, I don't, I 
don't remember Miyazaki being 

169
00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,000
particularly pro this kind of 
stuff. 

170
00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,600
Anyway, it's very fun, but then 
it opens up this whole host of 

171
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,600
defensibility from like a 
business perspective. 

172
00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:06,560
Do you think it is a legal loser
or like you know, there's no law

173
00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:10,800
anymore and it's only power? 
I think it's great. 

174
00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,400
I kind of am feeling like that's
the direction we're going. 

175
00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,800
I mean, Grok was the first to 
have the image generator. 

176
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,080
That was no regard for copyright
at all. 

177
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,080
And for the most part, opening 
eyes still on paper looking to 

178
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,440
do that, there's workarounds and
you know how to prompt it to get

179
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,480
it to generate the style so it's
easy to work around. 

180
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,200
But at least on paper, they have
their lawyers saying, you know, 

181
00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,000
you can't do this this way, but 
I don't know if that's going to 

182
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,800
hold. 
Imagine you're an artist and you

183
00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:41,720
have this genius style. 
I wouldn't want every Joe Schmo 

184
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,160
to be able to copy it. 
I mean, it's like, it's one 

185
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,960
thing if talented artists can 
sort of pay homage to it, but of

186
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,520
course they've learned to paint 
or draw and so now they have 

187
00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,960
some skill and so maybe they try
to be creative themselves. 

188
00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,360
You know, this is the ultimate 
couldn't be more derivative. 

189
00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,640
And even though it's fun, you 
know, for everybody to be able 

190
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,640
to do their family because 
you're not going to be able to 

191
00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,320
hire the artist to do it for 
you. 

192
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,600
It's just clearly is going to 
dilute the artistic style. 

193
00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,240
So putting aside the law, it's 
just sort of, you know, it's 

194
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,760
happy and sad I'm doing it, but 
you know, I wouldn't want to 

195
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,560
have an iconic art style right 
now because it's going to get 

196
00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:25,320
copied. 
Madeline, what's your forecast 

197
00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,760
on copyright? 
They're wild now as they're 

198
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,040
acquiring customers and they'll 
get more buttoned up. 

199
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:31,800
Or you think this is the new 
normal? 

200
00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,720
I think that we're still in the 
early days of adoption. 

201
00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,480
Like as much as this feels 
ubiquitous to us being really in

202
00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,960
this ecosystem, not everywhere 
has really taken advantage of 

203
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,400
this. 
Just speaking also with my 

204
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,040
lawyer mother that I keep 
referencing on this podcast, 

205
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,560
it's they're very cautious about
how to implement this kind of 

206
00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:53,280
stuff. 
And so the sort of like 20% 

207
00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,200
early adopters to 80% mass thing
is really real with this. 

208
00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,720
I can tell in a lot of 
industries and circling back to 

209
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,720
copyright, a lot of people are 
very nervous about this and 

210
00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,840
don't want this to get them in 
trouble. 

211
00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,400
So I don't think it's a total 
free for all yet. 

212
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,560
Long term, will it be? 
That's something that's I think 

213
00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:12,600
certainly going to have to be 
renegotiated, yes. 

214
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,680
But for the immediate time right
now, I think people are at least

215
00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:19,120
in the content space or a little
bit wary of doing this as 

216
00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,320
directly. 
It's bleeding over more now than

217
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,080
it was before. 
Like I think I don't think Sam 

218
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,120
Watlin would have used copyright
style images. 

219
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,080
What's funny that it's like the 
media channels. 

220
00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,880
If you're like NBC, you're 
surely paranoid about ripping 

221
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:39,120
off somebody's art style. 
But open AI, which is definitely

222
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,440
more valuable than NBC, it's 
like, oh, the old guard 

223
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,520
companies that are responsible 
but not as valuable are more 

224
00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,440
cautious than the startup worth,
you know, 300 billion. 

225
00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:52,160
I don't know. 
It's it's classic. 

226
00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:56,960
Moving on, different drama, 
different day. 11X this sales 

227
00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,360
automation AI startup backed by 
Andreessen and Benchmarks. 

228
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,120
So some pretty happy hitters was
accused of falsely claiming 

229
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:05,920
certain companies as its 
customers. 

230
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,240
Eric, what do you make of this? 
I think short term customers who

231
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,520
turned off but were still 
advertised as customers on the 

232
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,120
website maybe. 
I think some annual ARR. 

233
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,720
I don't know if it was recurring
revenue or runway in revenue, 

234
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,240
but ARR maybe inflated 
potentially. 

235
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,440
But the really charged idea at 
the top of the story was that 

236
00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:33,920
Andreessen Horowitz was going to
perhaps mulling suing the 

237
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,160
startup. 
They backed 11X dot AI. 

238
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,960
And just like knowing anything 
about Andreessen, you need to 

239
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,320
have that like lock solid, I 
think to lead off the story 

240
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,280
saying that Andreessen's gonna 
sue the start up. 

241
00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,640
I mean, Andreessen came out 
defending the start up and Sarah

242
00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:54,760
Tovill and Benchmark did. 
And you know, they're not as 

243
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,120
hostile to the media. 
And so I feel like it was a very

244
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,720
predictable as soon as it came 
out, like, oh, people are 

245
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,800
talking about whether Andreessen
might sue. 

246
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,520
The other thing that was obvious
in the story is like, clearly 

247
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,880
they are there are a lot of 
angry former employees. 

248
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,160
Like, you know, I think there 
was some picture in the story 

249
00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,920
and it's like everybody in this 
picture is gone besides the 

250
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,440
founder. 
And as someone who has written 

251
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,680
about these types of companies, 
I mean, it is employees can get 

252
00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:28,240
themselves incredulous that 
like, wow, we all left and like 

253
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,960
it's clearly a disaster, not 
going to work. 

254
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,640
Sometimes they're right and 
sometimes they're wrong, and 

255
00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:38,480
clearly, you know, VC's back the
founder, especially Andreess. 

256
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,040
Yeah, the VC's are doubling 
down. 

257
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,200
Do you think churn like that at 
a startup like this that's super

258
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,160
fast growing is like an 
immediate red flag? 

259
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,240
I mean, based on your history of
reporting, I feel like it really

260
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,760
depends if there's something 
fraudulent going on for that's 

261
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:54,800
obviously sketchy. 
But with this, it just seems 

262
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,240
like maybe not quite to that 
tier. 

263
00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,640
It's hard. 
It's hard to know, you know, the

264
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,560
business person and me. 
Churn is bad. 

265
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,640
Obviously, it makes it very hard
to keep growing if you have to 

266
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,480
replace all your old customers. 
But if you're sort of early on 

267
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,160
and figuring out what works, 
you're obviously going to churn 

268
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,800
out customers who weren't the 
right fit for you. 

269
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,560
So it's hard to know, just like 
churn on its own. 

270
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,920
Yeah. 
I mean, the issue is that it was

271
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,960
easy for people to abandon. 
They had sort of a loose brake 

272
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,560
clause, but then they baked in 
those customers to their ARR, 

273
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:30,680
you know. 
But again, this is sort of the 

274
00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,600
type of type of thing which is 
why we have staged venture 

275
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,720
capital funding. 
It's like if you if you sort of 

276
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,600
fake the AR today and those 
people churn, unless you're 

277
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,360
really pushing it, you're going 
to have trouble the next round. 

278
00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,040
So I think a lot of VCs are just
sort of this is the process. 

279
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,440
Why? 
Why write an expose on a Series 

280
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,360
B company? 
Well, also a lot of these even 

281
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,360
really these early AI startups, 
there's been a ton of reporting 

282
00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,200
about how a lot of customers for
these early AI startups have a 

283
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,280
lot of customer entrance and 
then a lot of churn, but then 

284
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,440
still rate retain a lot of 
customer interest. 

285
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,120
Like it's not like these 
companies are failing these, 

286
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,800
these are still backing them and
they're growing. 

287
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,880
It's just like a high. 
It seems like a lot of these 

288
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,200
companies just have higher 
turnover than maybe traditional 

289
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,600
SAS companies did at this time. 
If you need fewer employees, you

290
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,520
you can churn the ones that are 
annoying to you as a CEO. 

291
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:25,040
I guess I don't know a couple 
wild tweets that I would never 

292
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:30,680
put in a story, but in a podcast
I can read to you one from, you 

293
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:35,160
know, a non account basically is
like the fake revenue expose has

294
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,160
begun. 
Theranos will be forgotten. 

295
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,680
Long live the AI sales agent. 
Next is Mercor, then scale 

296
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,240
perplexity, open AI mean that's 
bombastic. 

297
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,440
But I do think there's like, we 
don't know anything about, you 

298
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,120
know, the nature of this 
revenue. 

299
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,840
But Arthur Rock, who has a track
record of good reporting, said 

300
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,480
an AI company with a similar 
quote revenue trajectory likes 

301
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,800
to include early equity raise as
part of their ARR calculation. 

302
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,960
Raised 20 million so far and is 
quite literally everywhere. 

303
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,320
I'm pretty sure none of its 
investors are aware of this good

304
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,720
litmus test on who is doing most
basic DD due diligence. 

305
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,400
Clearly. 
I mean, money's flying and there

306
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,280
are going to be some startups 
that do shady things and 

307
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,160
inflating revenue could be one 
of them. 

308
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,800
I think TechCrunch needed to be 
more buttoned up here about 

309
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,680
having this lawsuit idea at the 
top of their story when they had

310
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,040
other interesting claims that 
they could have focused on. 

311
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,520
Regardless, this is a TechCrunch
story that drums up a ton of 

312
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:40,120
media attention and hits just a 
week after their big sale, which

313
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,840
had a lot of people scratching 
their heads as to what that 

314
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,760
means. 
Yeah, I'm interested to see. 

315
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,200
Obviously TechCrunch has been an
institution. 

316
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,280
I think selling to private 
equity does not make people more

317
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,320
optimistic about the fate of a 
beloved brand. 

318
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,320
But you know, Apollo owned Yahoo
which owned TechCrunch. 

319
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,040
So one to another we'll we'll 
see. 

320
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,240
Hopefully they figure it out. 
I said earlier that we might 

321
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,440
come back to self driving cars. 
It is now the time to do so. 

322
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,880
Waymo, my my favorite dear, near
and dear to my heart way MO's 

323
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,960
planned robo taxi launch in 
Washington, DC intends to 

324
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,119
introduce by 2026. 
I mean, what is, is DC going to 

325
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,119
be part of the Trump federal 
administration by then? 

326
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:26,400
I don't know what'll be a 
separate city. 

327
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,480
I don't know. 
But but anyway, they they want 

328
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,440
to go to DC. 
What do you think, Madeline? 

329
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,440
I think this is cool. 
Of course, the launch is 

330
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,800
dependent on if they can change 
some local laws that currently 

331
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,880
require human drivers in 
autonomous vehicles. 

332
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,040
So obviously they're going to be
pushing for that so that it does

333
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,160
go through. 
I think that DC as a 

334
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,640
neighborhood makes a lot of 
sense for Way MO. 

335
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,040
It's a bigger city, obviously 
it's nation's capital. 

336
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,560
The access of power is Silicon 
Valley moves closer in you know 

337
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,840
maybe probably good call there, 
but I also think it's just 

338
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,120
exciting to see self driving 
cars in growing cities one step 

339
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:02,880
closer to getting to New York 
City. 

340
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,720
Am I right I. 
Was reading something. 

341
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,200
I worry that New York is going 
to be a particular particularly 

342
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,040
big hurdle. 
Taxi cabs are powerful and 

343
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,400
highly regulated. 
Also the just the the culture of

344
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,240
jaywalking and the chaos of New 
York streets I feel like is 

345
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:20,960
something to consider too not to
be. 

346
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,640
You're buying car propaganda 
there. 

347
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,040
This is why it's self driving 
cars. 

348
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,720
They're much better. 
I I was looking at analysis by 

349
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,880
Timothy Lee. 
He analyzed the 38 most serious 

350
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:41,960
crashes Waymo experience between
July 2024 and February 20, 2516.

351
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,560
Crashes where another vehicle 
crashed into a stationary way 

352
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,520
MO. 
I think the only ones where way 

353
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,960
MO is sort of responsible are 
passengers getting out and like 

354
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,040
during like a bicyclist or 
something. 

355
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,200
OK, for sure. 
Again, also human error. 

356
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,240
In a certain way, though, a 
product design, I think Waymo's 

357
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,120
trying to warn people when 
people are coming. 

358
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:08,440
But anyway, by by any standard 
there, he's he he predicts that 

359
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,520
there would have been way more 
incidents with human drivers. 

360
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,520
I mean, I think it's pretty 
clear at this point that Waymo 

361
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,120
is superior. 
I think you'd be right in them. 

362
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:20,400
You're like, yeah, this is 
definitely safer. 

363
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,160
So if you want to protect 
pedestrians in the streets of 

364
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,120
New York, we need Waymo. 
That's our show. 

365
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,040
Thanks for listening. 
See you next week.