Come with me and let's build the future together.
What do you think? When I say, workspace, cubicles,
ugly Furniture, bad fluorescent, lighting, death except lie.
I'm Travis kalanick, and I will never back down from a fight.
And if no one wants to believe in me, I'll make them believe by
being undeniable, you know, you're on your way up.
And they slap a Target on your back, we're deceiving the most
powerful tech company in the world.
We are disruptors because that is what Revolution requires,
what if you can test your blood in your own home and what if it
wasn't a whole file, but just you drop.
I'm going to drop out of Stanford, this machine going to
change the world. Welcome.
Hey, everybody. It's dead cat Tom here, joined
by Katie and Eric, got a very special episode for you guys
today, we've been waiting to do this for a long time, but we are
in the midst of the golden age, of television shows about tech
companies. It's a bubble upon a bubble,
upon a bubble, has has resulted in and what we are going to talk
about today. Because first, we have the
Belove books about tech company implosions.
And then we had the bubble of podcasts about books about tech
company, implosions. And then we have the streaming
shows about the podcast that are sometimes based on the books
about tech company. Implosions, it's Turtles all the
way down here. But who better to talk about
this than people who have written about?
These companies have watched all the fucking shows I've been
sitting in my room, it's a bright sunny day, the birds are
chirping. I had the blinds pulled down and
I'm just like bitch. You watching we crashed and the
drop out that there are no show. Yes.
So a lot of TV has been consumed for my job recently.
Yeah over a short period of time.
Yeah I was watching last night then I got too tired.
I went to bed and then I woke up and watch two more sitting in
bed and then I watched another, I finished the episode that I
watched on TV in the morning. So I am, I'm saturated in this
shit but so we've got three shows here, right?
We have super pumped, which is The Uber show which we've talked
about before on dead cat, when Mike came on, we've got we
crashed, which is the we work show.
And we've got the Dropout, which is the Thera no-show.
Are they text shows? Or are they fraud shows right?
I haven't seen inventing Anna but I do think there's an
argument there like the Soul at least of like the Dropout and we
crashed is more about like fraudsters, they're almost like
following the fire Festival Spirit the hucksters.
Spirit and seem to sort of jump to my take seem like good post
trumpian dealing with that whole era stories about, like,
fraudsters in a way that they're more about that to me than the
tech industry and to some degree.
The Uber show to me struggles because it's too much about
tech. Yeah, I agree like these shows
are at their best when they Embrace not just like the
characters at the center of it. But when they are about the
fraud, basically, the deception, Is that something everyone can
relate to? You know, like discussing, you
know, roadshows for funding rounds, is not interesting to
most people. It's barely interesting to us
but when it's about, you know, deception and it's why I think,
you know, their nose remains absent of these shows but their
nose Remains the best story of all of them because it's the
clearest con, right? It's like this was someone who
misled investors. Claim that a product did things
that I couldn't do and directly affected people's lives.
I know we need to talk about B-but when we were writing those
stories seven years or whatever it is now yeah, weren't to some
extent we writing about fraud, I mean that was the narrative
tension of those reported stories as well.
Some degree it was like we've been giving you stories about
funding rounds. We've been giving you stories
about pretty dry Silicon Valley jargon.
But here's a story that we're putting on the front page
because it's about fraud, right? Totally.
Yeah. And the fact, yeah, and the fact
that it got to the front page of like, the New York Times, was
because it had a A larger repeal.
I mean, theranos the times covered the trial, you know,
minute by minute though, we should say at the outset here,
Adam Newman there's no crew like there's criminality, you know,
Elizabeth Holmes has been convicted of something, right?
It was clear concept, Travis kalanick and Adam Newman just
were pushed out of their jobs. They in some in Newman's case
got a lot of money for leaving his job, you know they haven't
been charged with anything so fraud is maybe a Dangerous word
to use there tied up in hype and you know, whatever.
But we should be careful. I mean there is a truth that
Elizabeth Holmes sort of has really done something of a
different type or sort that I think you like it.
Yeah when we were writing when we were reporting the stories
part of the thing that was being explored is what is the fine
line, if to the extent that it is fine between Behavior, that's
going to get in trouble with the law and Behavior.
That is going, that is somehow immoral or wrong.
And both of those questions are very human stories, which is why
they were able to have such broad broad interest, right?
And they also I think you know beyond just the fact that these
were all venture capital funded companies, well, arguable with
their nose but you know Tech story is the thing that ties
them all together is that these were, you know, people at the
center of it, who sort of let things spiral out of control.
What one way or another right? It's like it's very American
story. It's like every Coen Brothers
movie, it's like 11 deception, One Lie.
One thing kind of escapes their grasp and then suddenly it all
sort of tumbles into chaos. It's Icarus.
I want to start with. We work our we crashed because
it was the one that I initially when I was texting you guys had
said that it was my least favorite of the three.
And really, I don't, I'd only seen half of it.
I've now seen more of the show. I think it may be my favorite is
my favorite by far. I think it would be my favorite
of the three and I was not expecting that.
I watch The Uber one first. Then I saw that their nose when
I was like, oh, this is way better than the Uber one.
And now I love the Thera no show.
There are no show is good, she's Amanda see fret.
House is really good. I mean, she feels like Elizabeth
Holmes, almost more than any I She's the she's very good at
authentic but but honestly, Anne Hathaway is just so compelling
as Rebecca Newman that I feel like that make their love.
I was literally in tears. Honestly, in the first episode
about it because like their love stories.
So good, like these tow tragically Oh I thought you
meant laughing. I mean no money but I do think
the right, like, just like the idea that their love is so
strong that they can sort of trick the world.
Like It's like, we love each other so much that you're gonna
like, tell any we can bend the Universe.
I feel like is a very powerful, like I did, let's get like a
house of cards Vibe, right? That was the.
That was like the engine of. That's true.
It was drama. Yeah.
Right. If they clearly centered, it all
around their love story. But just like, it's a quick
recap to any of our listeners who have not followed the, we
work story, which I will admit of the three as it was playing
at. We work is the one that I
followed the lead. It was when I was at least
interested in ironically given the least.
I think attention of the three private problem, Adam Newman and
the meeting was so bizarre. Oh, I want to get a buzz with
her weight. Was it during deep voice or pre
deep? It was post the whole Scandal.
It was like she was still like she was running out of the
courtroom. She's like, I gotta hot bocce
ball date. It was somebody's like myrcella
party in San Francisco and you know, I was a terrible reporter.
It was just sort of like it's a birthday party.
I don't want to ruin her like we're just gonna play cool.
You know, it's obviously everybody knew like, excuse me,
excuse me. Is this is this your bocce ball?
I don't want to lose the thread with we work but it was the one
that I follow the least I have not met Adam Newman although
ironically he's the one I'm most closely maybe even actually
related to But it's possible. That's what I'm saying.
Are you just say you're all members of the tribe?
Yeah, I think it's possible. There's not that many Israelis.
I have a lot of cousins that are Adam Newman.
Ask. Let's put it like that.
You were he was Adam Newman was born in Israel.
Oh yeah. Oh, you our viewers really want
to Terry's face. I was born in the US but my
parents were both in Israel. My but my older brother was born
in Israel. I have most of my family out
there. I recognize the Adam Newman type
distinctly, but it's the story of we work which is a co-working
company that was started in New York.
Work by Adam Newman and it raised, billions of dollars most
famously by SoftBank, which pumps in I think over 10 billion
dollars. As, you know, the whole thing
played out and he had this very kind of codependent relationship
with the CEO of soft magma, so Yoshi sun which obviously ended
explosively. But the company sort of demise
as it were was that Adam Newman and wildly inflated projections?
They had this IPO that had a hysterical S1 at I was like,
this is insane. Well everybody, we all love to
talk about Community adjusted ibadah, right you right?
Yes. And you could do, we all love
that. It has a I mean Elliott and
elevating. The world's Consciousness was
one of their like core objectives Marines Barrel.
I mean their book really did a good job of yeah.
They had a lead on a financial because he's metric.
Yes but anyway so the show centers on, you know, the rise
and fall of Adam Newman by fall. We should also Add the fact that
he is currently a billionaire, he got away with it.
I mean, he, I mean, and release it Travis, you know, they both
made, they succeeded in Travis's complicated.
But anyway, so I started watching that show and and then
I went to sleep, then I ended up saw that, it was still on the TV
and I finished the episode. And like, it is my favorite of
the three for two reasons. I think one, it looks the best.
Like it has the best overall, like, cinematic look to it.
It feels like a movie, which made it does, which may be.
It probably should have Bend we met First episodes like a full
hour. The others are 50 minutes.
I mean, is like movie rice, but it has like kind of a cinematic
scope to it. It's really like the production
qualities are the best of the three of them.
And Anne, Hathaway is the best actress of any of the actors in
in the production's. She, yes, she is.
She really knows that character. Very well, very well.
I mean, she may have met her base keep in mind.
The actual person was was part of all these Hollywood, sort of
like investment. Crossovers habakkuk brought a
lot of celebrities like 50 times in the show.
By the way, I didn't know this about Rebecca but she also has
kind of a low voice. I don't know what's going on
with that. Both cheese are really bad for
low voice to women. Yeah, it's just really put upon
low-voiced with it. I think offensively low voice.
Women should feel proud, but Katie.
Do you practice your voice in the mirror often?
Or Actually going for something a little bit higher than today's
just. You don't want con artist low,
right? Yeah, but we work is the, it's
the most to me, just a pure comedy.
Like it Embraces the fact that like at its core, Adam Newman
and his wife are clowns. They are clowns here for our
entertainment because ultimately I don't believe there is a moral
to the, we work story. There were no real victims to
it. I remember talking to Elliot
about this and like his lying about What, you know, what is
the lesson to be learned? Like who's the victim of we
work? And his line was like the truth
that, you know, the truth was the victim of the whole thing.
And it's like, I don't know, the truth kind of already dead.
I don't, I think we're well past I order.
I agree with him. I also, there are a bunch of
people who thought they were going to be very rich who are
not and probably could have made a lot more money at other
companies. It is a very white collar, like,
you know, he screwed over a bunch of people.
We thought there it's like Richards.
Imagine a value. Yeah, right, right.
And it looks Work is a thing. I work out of a we work.
It's still around. I was checking up its market cap
today, it is five billion dollar company which is not 47 billion.
So anyway I do think like Adam Newman's huckster is Tendencies
were good like the idea in the beginning like the idea that he
can sell you that this space is not like a normal office, let's
rethink what an office is. Like, let's really change the
spirit of it. Like, let's inspire.
People. I mean, people wanted that that
would that it was good while it was still functioning as a
profitable business, which it did for a period of time.
I think that's what makes all these stories sort of compelling
us and what gives it sort of a tragic underpinning.
As it's always a good idea in the beginning.
The stories would not work if the idea were just incredibly
stupid in the beginning, like so many other Silicon Valley
startups. But right, the idea has to be
good though, right? Uber and we work had products
that weren't just Oh, the intuition is good.
Like there are lots of cases where people have intuitions
that people have had forever and you can get people to like sort
of want to get on board that to me, is that there are no someone
who burn we work. They had, you know, the black
car service were. I mean Uber still is a thriving
business. I think it's funny.
By the way that the we work show begins with a title card saying,
based on actual events because it does sort of seem so
fanciful. That, like these characters
exist that you would wonder if they were pure Hollywood.
Well, the show literally starts. Sort of towards the end of the
arc with Adam Newman, having an assistant, come in and give him
a bong rip. Before going to a board meeting
where they're trying to force them out, this is the beginning.
So I'm not really spoiling anything.
And then we cut back to sort of the early days of Adam Newman.
The morning bong, rip. By the way, is just an Israeli
like ablution. That's something I do every
morning to wake. It's actually, I prefer that not
be brought up in a cultural context in the show.
He also, I believe this like Katie, Harry this sort of
somewhat make this resonates given my, my meeting with Adam
Newman that went so, so sideways, and so many different
ways. I had a meeting with Adam Newman
that went almost as hilariously terribly, as as any meeting I've
ever had. Truly, it was in 2017.
First of all, Adam showed up, 45 minutes, late to the meeting as
he does on his date in the show. He got there for But the last 10
minutes of it, which I was fine with it was really just to get
to know him and these things happen is totally great, but he
came in, you know, there was not really an apology.
I've been sitting with his PR person at that point for a long
time. We really got to know one
another, but what he, what he first did is summoned, one of a
rotating cast of assistants who came in, and he demanded a very
specific cappuccino order. With some other accoutrement, he
insisted on getting me some sort of coffee which I was totally.
It was neither here nor there, I did not care.
And then, he sort of launches into a spiel about how to best
to Value the company because I'd come in with a list of
questions. Because I was, I didn't
understand the valuation of the company.
I had covered commercial real estate in the past, so the
numbers didn't make a lot of sense.
So he's giving me the Spiel and the assistants are coming in.
The first one brings in regular coffee which is absolutely not
correct. Another assistant has to come in
to deal with the incompetence of the first assistant.
There is a terrified looking person who comes in eventually
with what looks perhaps like the correct coffee drink.
But at this point like he's just he's very he's very
dissatisfied. I'll turn it that way.
He seems very dissatisfied and then finally somebody breaks in
I believe a fourth assistant at this point to say that he is
late and he needs to get in To his town car that's waiting for
him to drive him from San Francisco, down to the valley
which with traffic as definitely 45 minutes to meet with Google
that he meeting. He's running late too and then
he looks at me very pointedly. And while he stares at me, says,
to assistant number for Google can wait, I'm doing something
far more important, right? Which is funny given what we
like. Liz is cannot wait.
They're about to. I think, give you give you money
and I believe that that is why you are meeting with them.
So you should get in your car. I mean, that looks like was that
the end of the meeting, the idea of an assistant at that point
coming in. And handing them, a bong would
have made complete sense. It would have been absolutely
perfect in keeping with every other part of the meeting.
Go with the right bomb was I do know.
This is cups of coffee on the Table because none of them were
right. I mean, I loved it.
Adam Newman. She was a perfect is not any way
not only oriented around all his needs, but incompetently.
So looks like we can't even get him the right coffee that he
wants. You know, I don't know.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
I mean, that's the interesting thing as the show developed a,
we'll see how it goes, but it's like, is this about just pure
enrichment, is he just trying to develop a lifestyle or like a
company that can support the lifestyle that he wants to?
Ever does he really think that he's building a company of you
know substance that will last forever that is going to make
the world's you know Elevate the world's Consciousness or
something. I mean, I guess that's the
tension at the core of all of these companies, right?
Is it just like, are they creating a service that will
make the world a better place? Or is it just, you know, a way
for them to get rich with Adam? It seems mostly the latter, it
has to be? I mean, he's a real entrepreneur
and so in that way, he succeeded, I mean, you know, you
got the billion right from right, I haven't, my notes and I
I do think sort of a broad point across these three shows is that
Travis ends up, Travis kalanick ends up coming off the worst,
even though he is the best entrepreneur of the three, you
know what I mean? I feel like he comes off as the
lease redeemed in a way because he's like, he's this ruthless,
hyper comp competent person. And the way that the other two
are like, People like being dipped, like, fraudsters are
Charming, you know what I mean? So I think there is something to
say about that. We are getting sort of suckered
to, you know what I mean? Like, they, it's like the guy
who is, I mean, there's a lot of bad things about Travis and his
his confidence allowed him to commit perhaps Acres sins.
Well, no, they are nose is the biggest sin, but like allowed
him to sort of do a lot of things that people objected to,
but I do think the emotional I'm like, yeah, I'm rooting for Adam
Newman at the moment. I'm rooting for do for Elizabeth
Holmes. I'm definitely not rooting for,
you know, Travis in super pumped.
Yeah, I think what the we work show gets really, right?
Just again, I haven't met Adam, like, Katie has and I have
personal issues with Israelis being successful that particular
way. But like, you understand how it
works for him? Like he is genuinely Charming
the show clearly rides on that for a while.
When Jared Leto's performance it's pretty good.
As far as that goes he's actually very compelling to
watch he's not 65 like Adam Newman is which it's funny.
There were like competing projects for the we work story
and one of them was going to have cousin Greg from
succession, playing Adam Newman which like height-wise is
accurate. Well it seems like yeah common
theme that at least between super pumped and we crash is the
failure to cast, tall, care, L, All actors.
These Bill girly I mean, Mike, he gets made fun of by people
who read his great book, but he talks about Bill girlies height,
like a bazillion times in the book.
And, and then, you know, show that tries to really cover the
entire ground of the book cast Kyle, Chandler, who.
And they don't even try to pretend like he's taller and
right, right, right. And they don't, they don't
really it, you know, with we work in and Adam Newman.
But yeah, I guess, just to finish off with the show it It
has the most forward momentum in a way that I'm excited about,
like I said, watching it. Like, I really want to see where
this thing goes. Even though I know where it
goes, I am wrapped up in Anne Hathaway for sure.
This is a love story. It's a good love story, right.
Right. And they're still together.
So, you know, it's not like this becomes like, you know, A Star
is Born or something where, you know, they their relationship
falls apart. As you know, she is the upper
like you like the rising star. Like, it's a fun one.
Like the other two, Aren't as her father.
Grimm is hell. I mean who buries show?
We'll get to in a second. Like that thing is just like a
constant like, just like grind of, you know, watching these
people go into meetings and argue about products, and
deception, whatever, no Edward is just like, I'm off to - about
super pumped, I actually have have liked it better as it's
going along. It's interesting to see some,
you know, connected universes between the show's Benchmark was
an investor in, we work as well as you Or Anthony Edwards from
from ER plays The Benchmark partner is actually kind of
funny and all three of these shows.
There's a lot of like late 90s, early 2000s, TV actors who I
haven't thought about in a long time, Sayid from Lost Place,
Sunny, bhawani, another no-show, I didn't put that together.
That's right, which is a good job, which I actually think
that's bad casting, because so, he's well, I just because, like,
I think Sonny Bomani is just a straight-up slimeball, I mean
that's coming out in full during the trial, right?
Now that he was like a really. I mean that's like a real
slickster, but I really seems pretty.
I mean, if anything might take away from his character in the
show, is that he's pretty one-dimensional, he's just like
he's the sort of bad but I just like Naveen Andrews that actor
who plays you know, so that Iraqi military person who was
also stranded on the island in law.
So it's just like a general core of goodness to him.
Like he's just like there's a Humanity to him and I just don't
I never really saw in sunny bhawani.
In terms of other actors that have popped up.
And you know we had what Ginsburg from Mad Men.
Oh yeah. As Larry Page is a pretty
hysterical cameo in the in super pumps and then she said I should
have written it down. No it's not anyway but yeah
anyway so so that's really all I have to say about we crash it's
the one of the most excited to go back and watch the rest of
for sure. My sneaking suspicion though, is
it probably should have just been a movie.
It probably should have just been like a two-hour movie and
would have you have no noise in this Instinct?
Save you. I think that's the problem with
so many of these shows, not just the ones that are made about
Tech podcast that were based on books that were based on
newspaper articles. But also just that in general
the streaming Wars mean that we're seeing a lot of things
that could have been told in two hours being stretched out to
like an interminable 10. Yeah.
Yeah, it's economic like it's economically driven that they've
made these all serums this is such but it takes so much work
to convince. I'm just arguing for television
but like, it takes so much work to convince people to get to
know a new character once you have them on the hook.
You've done most of the job and then they want to keep watching.
I mean, it TV's great people look to see if you have a
Content, I understand why? Yeah, that's great.
I'm so used to do more than this character has to do a lot of
stuff, though, to sustain 10 episodes.
Not do kind of like one thing stretched out over 10 episodes.
The we work stories. Also, so simple.
You know, it's really like, I want reacts or we work story is
a story of one of your Ins because getting high and hang
out with Gwyneth Paltrow. It's already very complicated.
What's up? I have cousins in their 40s at
still live on quasi kibbutzim in Israel.
I know this type. So well, if by the way, if you
enjoyed the we work we the we crashed story.
And you want to know more about swindling Israelis.
I do recommend the tender swindler, which we can do a
spin-off podcast about. I have a lot to say about that
documentary on Netflix, but we got two more shows to get
through. So I think we should should move
on to the. What can we talk about?
Burp up next or sure. Yeah, sure.
I mean super pumped is the weirdest one for I think at
least for me to talk about because I really I know Mike
better than the people who wrote the other, the material that
supports the podcast that support the other shows.
By the way, the actor that played like Isaac was excellent
as my fault. Everybody's watch these shows I
It's a little bit weird because, okay, look when I was, I think
in high school, the movie Of Mice and Men came out, and I
loved the book and I watched the movie, and I thought to myself,
the problem with this movie, is that it adheres so closely to
the book that it almost makes it hard to be a good movie.
It would be like if the Godfather adhered completely
with complete Fidelity to the Mario, Puzo book.
It would not be a very good movie.
And so like there's there were moments in the show where I was
like, wow I really like this. Very explanatory part of Mike's
book and feel that he did, An Elegant job breaking down,
something complicated in a paragraph, but I don't know if
that's good TV. What can I actually?
I'm not wondering if Katie, I'm not wandering.
Katie, if the ending of super pumped is the same as Of Mice
and Men and and Doug early, kind of leans over to Travis, it
says, the camera pulls away, great ending.
I'm gonna be a terrible Millennial and Katie is going to
murder never met Of Mice and Men.
No no I rather myself but I think you're a sort of I'm going
to talk about Harry Potter whatever Millennial never does.
I bet all those goddamn you like your fucking be ready too late
Katie. Now you shouldn't have read
them. She's know without reading those
books and suddenly I'm like, oh my God.
What happens next with the owl? But continue, okay, I I love
inherited Potter, 7 part 1, we're like Harry and Hermione
are dancing and they have this nice.
Look, it's just one book. You talk about the movies.
Now, that is a moment where where the characters are
actually able to sort of be expressive even though it's not
true to the book and it makes you feel something.
So, I'm totally as a book loyalists, I was fine with that
scene because I thought it worked in the movie and so I
don't have a problem when they change things from The books to
make you feel the authentic themes of the books.
Like that's what you want. I'd rather you make a change so
you can feel the themes even if factually, it doesn't line up.
But which always drove me crazy. In the Harry Potters is like a
die hard. Was it whenever Harry was
killing. It was destroying the horcruxes
and the books Baltimore. Can't feel at all because he's
so disconnected from his soul. But in the movies they because
they want to, like, show something.
They have like Voldemort, like get weak.
And weaker every time they kill his soul.
So that always drove me crazy, and I feel like similarly in
super pumped they wanted my Travis is girlfriends, like the
horcruxes know they want to make Bill girly, sort of over, they
need to show over time, Bill girly, resisting Travis because
they think it makes a better show, but authentically a key.
Part of the book, The Uber story and everything is that girly
doesn't lead us. Turn on, Travis until 2017.
The key thing of the whole Saga is that if you don't have voting
control on the board, you're either all in or all out, you
enable these Founders until you decide enough.
Then we really have to kill him and get a headshot.
But it's not an incremental thing.
You got to stay close to the company work with him and then
when you say like, oh my God, we can't do anymore.
Then you go all out War. Where's the show?
Makes it seem like all longer Lee was like, all right, I'm not
annoying. I'm gonna try and stop.
I know it was like we're going to enable him all along the way
and then we're going to kill him.
You know? That's a trio.
That's like the exact. Yeah.
And so that's interesting because you're right.
They create these very strange devices to show girly struggle,
including the character of girlies wife who who's I don't
quite understand as a narrative device, though.
The best part of girlies wife is when he's like because they're
trying to To create real Stakes for this person who's already
worth like, you know, 500 million in there, right now,
right? Well, now a 100 million or 10
million. He's a cent, a millionaire,
they're trying to create steaks from these.
Like honey this could be the one that gets us out of this hard
knocks life. I know I do there are other
giant like open-concept kitchen and the girlies wife character
is like I think we're doing okay.
Actually look at this just honey maybe You don't need for houses,
maybe just the three we have will be okay.
Very. Yeah.
He, yeah. I they clearly made a decision.
It's are making this show was ever like, well, who's the heart
of the story? Oh, that's Bill girly and like,
listen, we love Mike and they were just trying to make him
into coach Taylor from Friday Night Lights, right.
Which is why do girly character exists?
A stock analyst, right? You know, you may not coach
Taylor, he's a smart guy. He's a, he has a Southern
accent. But besides, you know, like
yeah, like any person You can get Beyond a Southern accent,
realize people with Southern Accents, can be smart with like
Bill. Girl, he's smart, you know, like
he's like the kind of guy you, your eyes is what he predicted
that the Uber said he was looking for different ride
sharing companies. He was pursuing a thesis.
Yeah, yeah I did it starts off feel like the whole like that's
the thing they were it's almost feels like a couple of different
pre-existing successful television shows sort of pushed
into one. They're like we're going to take
a little lights. And they're going to take like a
little bit of billions, right? All right.
I just kind of put them together because he's playing the coach.
Yeah, that's totally right. They are trying to make him
play, sort of the Friday Night Lights, which is why they make
Bill girlies wife basically the Friday night.
Oh, that's interesting. Wife to yeah.
It's like it's just yeah it's just Connie Britton.
She doesn't have like, giant glasses of wine instead of that
she's like making salads constantly like but California
and in California, you eat a lot of salad, right?
Right. Yeah, they did get that right
but no and you know, they set up a similar thing with with Travis
and his mom which you know as we know does and fairly tragically.
So so you know the show is you know that something's a little
bit more defendable even if those scenes are also very
perplexing. But I was taking notes during
the Uber show because watching it you know, because I cover the
company and watching it in that sense feels like homework to me.
But you know like when one sense we have to get past the first
sorry before we get into that. Why is Quentin Tarantino doing a
voiceover the worst part of the show by armed.
There's no point. It adds nothing to it's like
we're gonna rip you out of any sense.
It when youíve actually convince you that this is the real world
and rip you out of that. Like yeah, I mean like I can I
can understand why they chose to make the Uber PR women.
Look like Foxy Sears catalog models to like, you know, a up
the sexual tension, like whatever that Stevie, but
Quentin Tarantino. Like yeah, why?
Why? Yeah, so anyway, when he was
texting me, like, I'm sure Jill, Hazel Baker, Baker and Rachel
Whetstone hate being portrayed as like, fix you mean in The
genome? You mean wet Baker.
By the way, that was just me. Feel seem like Rachel's boss.
Did you notice that? Like I did Wonder I get your the
radio has like such a great way of like speaking that they want
her to be sort of like the like doing.
I don't know. They should have just picked one
or some, I don't know. It's a weird.
It's almost too easy to like, pick on the like niggling
verisimilitude aspects with it because it's rampant throughout
and I'd almost rather it be even more fictionalize, right?
To make it a better story. Well we work like there's a
great having you, do you work or fiction?
We're there in, like they're in Skadden office, you know, in
this scene where they're trying to get rid of them.
But they don't like say like I feel like if it was super
pumped, they say Scott and Scott and Scott, he's a law firm.
It's like, you know, there's a reference whereas, like, it's
just like in the background of the we crash.
Oh, you know, they're in a real, you know, Silicon Valley, Law
Firm, but they don't like, they're not like bragging that
they like have a trivia question that they're sort of like,
inserting into the into the story.
Yeah, my overall take just the matically on the Uber show.
Super, Pumped, is that it very much feels like a show, those
written by a bunch of 40 year old dudes, which I think works
for for billions because that is sort of the milieu of, you know,
Wall Street, you know, hedge fund, dudes.
And so you can kind of ramp up the camp penis.
And the like my general point is that like, this is, this is the
most like Gen-X spilled show. I've seen in a long time.
I mean, the soundtrack, the soundtrack certainly, yes, you
like the Pixies. Is this Show sponsored by the
pixie? I don't know to feel girly where
Pixies t-shirts everywhere. If that's the Archer point.
And then I didn't realize that when they're when they're doing
though when they do the Roadshow or the home show rather than
they had when they have the Obesity boys, Ryman and steal
and play. And during that they have the
Clash play. They've got Pearl Jam's.
Autograph of the Beastie Boys lately, though.
I mean, that's really something. Wow, anyway, continue absolutely
real crazy. I mean, just yes.
Yeah, yeah. What Katie as the one Gen-X
person here, maybe you could heal.
More like a tune to the vibe of the show, but for me, it's just
like, and this kind of feels like, it feels like 40 year
olds. Well, yeah, Joe but this is,
this is one of the things I noticed about the acting that
makes possibly the other, the protagonist of the we work show
and the Thera no show better than the than the Travis
character is that, on the other shows, the actors feel they have
the freedom to actually act like full people, right?
Are you like them or not? They bring things to the
character that may or may not Elizabeth.
Holmes may never have had the kind of like emotional collapse
or freaked out that Amanda Seyfried portrays in the show
and she might not have done that but but on that show the
character Elizabeth Holmes is allowed to have like really full
emotional arcs and like you get the sense of a complete human
being. Whereas for some reason the
Travis character was a Joseph Gordon-Levitt he is basically
directed to act like the two-dimensional person of rice.
Paper stories, which is like bizarre.
Yeah, there's no real attempt to broaden out his character, at
all. They're also saddled with some
pretty bad lines. The writing you think this scrap
it and the acting the script? He's working with a tough.
Yeah, Daddy just wasn't just adhered to closely to the book
and I liked the book so I get it.
But it's like they just it's not a show.
Yeah, the they were so much Thurman is actually very much.
I really like the Arianna, like I'd watch Yeah, me either.
She's good. I mean they really come up.
I was so worried that they were going to like girlboss, er, for
the lack of a better term but like she is definitely more
Svengali, like, you know, totally flat.
Oh, she's cut for the items, like, for sure.
Yeah. She's that's great character
and, and has a truthiness. I think they sort of put her in
like, Ariana is summary. But Ariana is so known to the
public already. So, if you're the actor, trying
to get ready to play, Her. You don't have to rely on the
book material, really. All like, if you're, if you're
Joseph Gordon-Levitt and you're like, I need to figure out how
to play Travis. You've got the book, and you've
got his, like, public appearances, which are pretty
flat. And then you have these
newspaper stories, but if you're preparing to play Arianna,
Huffington, you have so much great shit.
Like, you have, all of her public appearances, and the fact
that she was a political pundit her her role in politics like
her, this is the books, even the book.
She's And like, she's written some random books about like an
opera star. I mean, she's just sort of a
bigger personality, right? It almost happened to my
terminal, just so good. She's just very good.
Yeah, yeah. Anderson here.
It is. Sort of the argument for like
the best actors do sort of insist on being able to act in a
way that. Yeah, there's such a thing.
I like like every Montage scene of the over serious, I basically
loved. I feel like the theme song of
the show is literally West world.
Has anyone else noticed? Notice that like?
Yeah, it's got. It's like, it's like, it's like
this seem like, it's probably eats.
It feels like it's like total. I like it.
Can I die? I want to talk about the dry.
Oh, yeah. But quickly before you do that,
because that's a real story. So I just want to mention a
couple of quick notes that I made during it, in terms of bad
lines that beats, get these actors had to deliver during the
Uber Vegas party, which I think is completely out of time wise.
They made it sound like that was before.
They had done over X, but I think they'd I don't think
they've Jill things from The Miami party for the Vegas party,
right? And I think, Rachel and Jill had
not joined yet by the time of the Vegas party, right?
I think they weren't there for the Miami party and I think a
lot of the controversial things happen during the Miami party
and they move them to the Vegas story.
But I think Jill Rachel magazine party, you get the feeling in
real life. They would not have just been at
the party babysitting people, right hands, right.
They would have been likely have minions and you can talk to
them. Right?
Deal with this bullshit. Like, but like the presses
There. And then there's a line that one
of the journalists characters has to say.
There's dirt out there but I brought a shovel that makes no
sense. Made me feel like the the
creators of the show actually secretly hate reporters that
they would make that line happen, right?
Yeah. Which I mean I'm down with but
you know I don't know if the show is going to go in that
direction. There's a line, you know, you're
going to be like Silent Bob but she's as trap.
Chatty is Tracy flick. I don't know what the fuck that
supposed to mean, that was like deep 90s referencing that was
like, if you Didn't know from the telling you about the genic
show. Well, you get those references,
right? Right.
Yes, I do get the reference and I'm just saying it.
I'm like, yeah. Tom certainly understand if Tom
doesn't get the reverence, like, I don't know how they could even
put that on there. It's just the bass line.
Also, this idea that like Bill girly is anti buying lifts at
first, made zero sense to me. And then, in the, when they're
raising money from Google at some point girly, a saddle door,
Kyle genocide with the line doesn't don't be evil ring a
bell. It's a pretty lame thing for
Bill girly to have to say. And that my last thing is the
last two things. I don't know what research, they
did on David Drummond, but they didn't.
They basically like maiden, like shaft with, like the actual
David Drummond this, like it's kind of a, you know, kind of a
dorky guy who had like a, he's a lawyer, he's a lawyer.
He had like a very bizarre scandal at Uber in which he had
a relationship. With one of his, you know,
reports that I mean it, Google it Google.
Yeah, yeah. That it's just, I don't know.
I just have to let the actors who were playing secondary
characters. Bring like a lot to the
character I guess like a lot of something but then that people
playing the main characters are not allowed to do too much.
Yeah, it is, I don't know. I'm no director so what right?
Do I know at the very least make it a good show which I don't
know if they It's within that. And then the last thing, here is
like the Gabby character. They make it sound.
Like she was like playing at farmer's markets and stuff and
just sort of like buscan, it in order to make a living.
I mean, guy who was playing in pretty random place, she was
playing, she was a busker, she thought it was a busker, but she
was also playing like it, you know, high in.
She was basically booked as the violin player at like all she
played at the informations launch party.
Yeah, which I can't believe is where she met Travis, isn't it?
No, he wasn't there. Wasn't you know she met Travis I
think through shervin but we're going to chervin park, apply
this secret about that. Well, she met Sherman first,
I'll just I really sure if it is a name that has been exercised
because nobody wants to get sued, like he's not even
mentioned in the show. Like he's a composite character,
it seems to me. Anyway, it gets it gets your
thing about how you feel in the show but no, no, it's a good
story. Well, Yeah, I mean so basically,
in the most recent, they're still releasing the episodes of
super pumped. They they have sort of a dueling
narrative. They have Susan Fowler, you
know, preparing to write her blog post and then they have fo
Z Kamel who's the driver who released his video to the world
and They basically, you know, you know, this, this is one of
my big scoop so I, you know, take it very personally but
basically they have fauzi like go talk to a lawyer before he's
releasing this video. And then he and his wife posted
to YouTube in the show and he's like, quit his job and they're
like, ready to launch the video. And I'm the Real story I think
is a better story than this so in the real world first of all
fo Z emails, me like a pretty unhinged email.
This is At 10:55 on February. Well, I guess it was San
Francisco, so I must have been 755 February, 22nd, 2017.
I get an email subject line about boober.
The name of the account, is West Coast Limousine.
He says, I started driving for Uber and 2011.
So I know the company from the beginning and I can introduce
you to drivers who started in 2010, under Ryan Graves, we all
know the dirty, Uber Thief, last Sunday, I picked up Travis, and
I told him, That non none of the drivers trust him anymore,
because he cheated the drivers who promoted his idea at the
beginning and made him who he is.
Today, he got mad and slam my car door.
The point I'm trying to make is the answer of uber CEO after I
told him that I bank that I am bankrupt because of him didn't
seem as an answer of a CEO. Sorry, I'm having to there's a
little bit of a grammatical problems in the email.
I'm trying to fix myself. Anyway, I have all this in video
be Be my guest to see it. I just wanted to go viral
because the CEO is an asshole, arrogant piece of piece a shit.
Thank you. Fo Z Kamel, Baba.
And then I just reply, send me the video.
Give me the video and and he says, I will make it go viral
miss. You won't put it out there
without my permission and you can tell me what you'll do with
it, but wha and I say, OK, I agree.
I won't post it without your permission curious to see and
I'm like, you sending and then he sends it to me.
And you know, like it's like amazing and so then the rest of
the Saga, it's like over like to two or three days.
Maybe less I have like written the story.
I've like circulated the video at Bloomberg and so people are
getting like super excited about this video and I'm trying to
convince what was he to let me run the video and he is still
driving for Uber between leaking this video.
Till I take down the companies here.
Sorry. He's just like he's just driving
during the day and I'm trying to catch him when he's not driving,
I know but so they make it like he's like thrown in the towel on
the show but really this guy is still like doing the job of an
Uber driver while we're drivers. Living wage.
He maybe could have quit and found a better job, right?
Yeah. So then we put we poet Bloomberg
posts. It goes as you know, super viral
and I do think it played a big role in.
You know, people love video. I'm not taking Travis aside or
anything like that. Just saying it when they so
clearly as the show and the book frankly represents that bill
girly was on the side of good that he was like the person, the
only person pushing for a positive outcome here it negates
the fact that he also helps create this monster if you want
to call it that and profited handsomely from it.
And isn't that just the old content that they have is to
either give the money? It's like all you can do is ask
the CEO. That's my, it's like you can
tell, you can give them advice but if they're not Not taking
your advice, it's really your for the CEO or you're against
the CEO. And I that I think that is the
bill girly defense, which is gave good advice, didn't have
real power. I mean, now the benchmarks
willingness to just like give up found, you know, power over and
over again. I think that would be sort of
the, the real Benchmark critique which is just like they've
relinquished sort of voting control in exchange for making
tons of money, because that's what the lunatic Founders are
going to make them tons of money.
Want like, that would be my main.
My critique would be the fail, they have a brand as a steward
of these companies but if they were really a steward of the
company they would retain enough power to behave that way they
don't. And that disjunction is the main
Benchmark has and my heart to another Benchmark company.
Right? Right.
Yeah, it's all it's all fun
until they start realizing that, you know, this is affecting
their their returns. You know.
Like this is a financially, crippling cultural problems but
but some of the anti Benchmark people.
Would say things like, they care too much about their reputation,
you know, there is sort of like, they care too much about the
Norms that every the rest of the world cares about, right?
I think, I think my favorite covering over moment was when I
believe you two, and Mike, we were at my house playing Ticket
to Ride, mmm. And we were completely hammered,
and writers. Might have broken an Uber story
and, yeah, one of the wires, With no matching of that story,
right? Crap we've been here we were in
no position the information. I think maybe Rolf us are in the
Wall. Street Journal was just like
that was not happening. Yeah.
There's certain stories that you're not up for at certain
times a night. So let's finish up with the the
show that probably has the most prestige behind it.
Like the one that I think is probably going to get submitted
the most for awards and I think has maybe the most appeal to
people. Oil.
Well, I don't know, maybe the we work so because it has big
actors in it big stars, but the one that Rosa was watching on
her own without me telling her to and she is now so obsessed
with the Thera. No story that she's listening to
the podcast as well. So it's, you know, I think it
may end up the one that has the most cultural impact.
And I would say, probably features the bet, well, I don't
know the best. It's, there's a lot going in
there. And I think it features the most
layered character of any of the center ones here which is which
is Elizabeth Holmes. And like how She ended up the
way that she did, I don't know what you guys crashing of her,
as a character, the thing that I think the thing that it does
that Travis character doesn't do as much as it gives you a way to
actually like her, you know, I mean, it's sort of portrays her
as it's extremely frazzled person for a while that you can
kind of relate to. It's the most sympathetic, she's
not just that pressures but like, her own You know, her her
and maybe this is just because I think a lot of people relate to
this is that you're taught to do a lot of things.
If you're a smart person but you're not necessarily taught
how to present yourself, you're not taught, how to handle a ton
of pressure. You're not taught necessarily
how to present yourself in a big meeting.
And so watching that kind of constant transformation, you you
have some empathy for her, which is I think what you need in
order to get through an entire TV show with somebody.
As with Travis it with the exception of the way they
portray his mother which I think is is done, you know.
Listen, I think that's fine. I think that with Travis with
the exception of his mom they don't give you much about him.
That makes you like him and he's just portrayed as kind of a
one-note fairly chest. Something like ridiculous
person. And so that makes it hard.
It's gonna make it hard to get through like a whole series.
Right? It feels very repetitive and I
guess they also with with the Dropout with Elizabeth Holmes,
you need to have that kind of sympathy with the character
because ultimately she's the one that ends up doing the worst
thing of all of them. I mean, she's the one in which
the result of her company is the most unalloyed bad.
There was no product there. I mean, I interviewed John
Kerry. Roo when his book, when he's
doing his book tour at the time, and I remember asking him, like,
was there any science? Any research that came out of
Thera knows that is of some use. The scientific community and he
was like no nothing like in the end, there was really truly
nothing there and the fact that, you know, these tests were being
used in actual Walgreens around the country and people were
given inaccurate test results and all of that figured into,
you know, the the government's case against her, there were
real consequences here. Born out of the fact that she
did the absolute worst thing. And so to tell the story and not
just have her be like a psychopath on day one, they have
to sort of show like the transformation.
Of her character. So like storytelling.
Why if they had to do that Katie, I'm curious.
What's your close reading of the?
They have the sort of female Professor sort of interacting
with Elizabeth Holmes? Did you see that episode Laurie?
Metcalf, who is like basically just amazing and everything.
She does Elizabeth Holmes, like go to this.
Stanford Professor who she's been referred to and she has
sort of, you know, Blueprints for I think it's when she was
working on a patch or a different different device and
the professor's just like you know this won't work you know
it's a very it's a very anti Silicon Valley speech you know
it's like science requires like a lot of work and time and
expertise right? Well it gets to the core of like
what annoys me so much about certain types of Founders here
which is like a belief that there can just be miracles.
That there's can be one founder who's doing something that no
one has ever thought of before that is like, leap Leaps and
Bounds, but they're not for the rest of the industry, I don't
think so. I think everything builds off of
a foundation of pre-existing work and there is just sure,
World in which someone can come up with, you know, some
scientific device. That is just completely
different than anything anyone has ever tried that.
No, this pisses me off specifically with like, Elon,
because I think there are people out there who think like he's a
miracle worker, who's doing something that's completely
different. Anyone else in the car world is
doing and it's like, no, it's all sort of like smart marketing
on top, right? That is so powerful.
I mean, that's sort of what's Illustrated in the we work show,
right? That his ability to sort of
charm people into thinking, you know, what commercial real
estate is innovative is transformational, and guess to
see it so differently. And then tap them, that's was
the was the numbers, right? Exactly.
And this professor said, to Elizabeth Holmes feeling, like
she needs to like, Put put Elizabeth in her place and tell
her to take her time when when it is.
Like no we want to cultivate the spark and the drive to action.
It's just the key lesson, would be this doesn't work, you need
to be truthful but I do feel like what made that scene
interesting was that the professor was all, was both
telling her a truth and was sort of like and don't be so excited
that you might change the world. And I do think that's sort of
the problem with the academic type is that it's like you've
been sort of beat Down and you don't have the naivete to say.
Let's let's try to build a company out of this, this idea.
I mean like just sort of pulling back a little bit on the idea
because I think it's super interesting.
I don't have I don't know what like there's so many sides to
it, I'm not sure exactly where I come down, but I think that
we're seeing sort of beyond that like the teens as we're getting
into this. Next decade this idea of it's
great to be extremely enthusiastic and move super
fast. And you know, the that's enough.
I think it's starting to be questioned, not for the reasons
necessarily in that speech. But just because we're starting
to see that enthusiasm alone without consistent, hard work
and dedication to whatever it is.
You want to do, does not work. I think that we're seeing that
with for example you could cynically art argue that, that's
the issue of the democratic party.
Right now, there are so much spark around a Barack Obama, but
once It was clear that that wasn't enough.
Where is everyone including Barack Obama?
Like to try to look enough with sure.
Yeah, right. That's the problem.
I'm to try to like, Shore up what we think of as a working
democracy. You know, when you look at
something like this long horrifying drawn-out War that's
happening in Europe. It could go on for a really long
time. Well, if the public doesn't
really have the stomach for or the patience for or the interest
over a long period of time, what does that say about us in our
ability to be, you know, leaders as a country on a world stage.
So I think that there are sort of these bigger questions being
asked about was was being spunky and excited enough.
I think boobers worked hard that Hoover worked on the business
model was challenged and we were and continues to add.
I didn't necessarily work. He was, you know, very
passionate, just saying on that speech, that you described,
which I think is really interesting.
The, the question of whether or Not that assumption that
enthusiasm and creativity and upending, the apple cart and
doing it all. New is enough that there has to
be somewhat more of a balance maybe between that.
And these stodger ideas about diligence it's like the
dichotomy between branding and results, like Sizzle and steak
or like something that's revolutionary and like
evolutionary, it's like if absent any sort of Revolution,
it's just really about what can I brand it in a way?
That that makes it sound like it's that and you know like
Steve Jobs who obviously was like to bring it back to
Elizabeth Holmes. Literally she's like staring at
a picture, a poster of him on her wall saying I want to do
that and you know that leads to a transfer my judgment.
Like I really I don't know if we were suppose she got like so
close. I was like are they gonna have
her kiss the poster of Steve Jobs?
She just be food at the shower. Yeah, exactly.
She took makes out with herself. The rest of us I know what was
their great mirror scenes. I mean it's He is really good.
Looking in a mirror. How do you think it's a very
good job acting? Yeah.
What Rosa called the Golem? See.
It does feel a little like try it.
Yeah. When she tries out the voice
anyway, sorry to reload you're making but Steve Jobs, you know,
is the certainly as close to a revolutionary as a CEO is anyone
was in the valley But ultimately he was just building, you know,
very good at branding something that other people were working
on as well. You know, there was a
transformation of the personal computer and then the hand Held
device, all these things existed but his was like, let me make it
more attractive. Let me brand it in a way that's
unique and that's what's going to be.
That makes, you know, that's going to be the the traction
that gets the public excited about it.
I couldn't agree with what you're saying, but I feel like
it is argument for the end of time.
I mean, just it's like user interface like it making just
because sort of smartphone existed, the functionality of it
is, is like the whole game. I mean, it's sort of like saying
like, Lamborghinis, bad, because Like it's only the Aesthetics
that are good. It's like, that's no, but this
is slightly different from the like, from the, this is what's
so dangerous. I think about Silicon Valley is
that, it's the, it has the, the skin, or it has the like
appearance of it, being all scientific revolutionaries.
When I think truly at its core, a lot of it is just about
branding. Well, is that taking thing about
like, so guess jobs was great at branding but the other thing he
was really great at doing is convincing people who work for
him to work. 120 hours a week. Right?
When Sure. That the inside of the phone
work. Great.
And the outside looked great. And so yes, it was branding
combined with actual real hard effort over a tremendously long
amount of time. And that's the part that I think
the valley glosses over there like you're going to, you're
going to have a great idea. I will give you the money to
make it happen but they're like oh and by the way, you're going
to work like all your entire life around the clock to make it
make it go. I agree with Katie and the
media, yes to criticize ourselves is anti hard work in a
certain way, right? I would say.
Borders are most. Nobody is beating the drum being
like, I feel like it is not cool right now.
To write a story being like it's a lazy company over there.
Are they really going to, you know, like it is, it is much
more like, are they over working people, you know, but but at the
end of the day, I agree that companies like apple are
successful when when they're working super hard.
I mean in the beginning obviously which I cool or
whatever you can. So you know once you have a
monopoly yeah there's tons of money right here that we don't
need to get into it jobs. Right.
Which is why I think, you know, Adam Newman and Elizabeth
Holmes, I'm sure they were a bit perplexed by the fact that they
ended up being villains at this whole story because I think
their whole strategy from the beginning was like, we're just
doing what we're supposed to be doing.
This is about getting people to Believe in Us, Messianic Lee as
Leaders, who have a revolutionary idea, making them
work really hard and also branding something in a way that
the public is excited about. And, you know, we work as a, you
know, it's really nothing. It's really just real estate.
I mean like the least Innovative field imaginable very profitable
when done, right? Right or apparently not profit
done in the way that we work today.
But like with with Farrah knows what makes it so incredibly
dangerous was the fact that it was dealing with something that
it like branding is not, it can't be at the core of it.
It needs to be truly driven by Scientific Revolution or
progress and you know if it had been in a slightly different
context if she had you know let's say has this meeting with
the Laurie Metcalf professor and then it's like well I'm still
going to try it. I'm still going to try to build
this thing and Then she gets seed funding and then it doesn't
work out. Like the science isn't there?
And the company dies, that's kind of how science goes.
It's a research with Aaron, has the key piece of every good
fraud story where she makes sort of the small lie, right?
She's like you're the type of person willing to lie.
She does the small lie. It's like okay, we know the
machine works but we can't get it to work for the tracks.
The green juice we're going to do well that's a different but
she does the machine to us you know, she fakes that and then
she fakes a little bit more and then they're in.
She's in too deep and then. Okay we know the whole company
is a fraud but you know that's that's what's going to fund the
research and development and all these, you know, you can sort of
see how the willingness to be to make the small lie, sort of
sets. You on this like rock rolling
down a hill, Bernie Madoff. In a way that isn't true.
I don't think with Travis and Adam like the the financial
games were in the in the fight, you know?
It was obvious to any investor Just like the amount of money
they were losing to. I mean, to the extent that they
were sort of hucksters on that sense.
It was like, well, read the financials.
I mean, reporters were openly mocking both companies as they
were raising tons of money, right?
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, you know, talking to non-tech
people about these shows. I was talking to my younger
brother and he really loves the we work show and, you know, the
Thera, no show short. That's a clear story, everyone
knows, but he was like, well, what would what exactly did Uber
do wrong? It was Like his question to me
and it's like well you know they were kind of running the company
very controversially and there were a lot of scandals in the
culture was awful but they were better kind of is right?
Yeah, a big jerks. Here's your question.
I don't know. And I don't even like, I don't
I'm not going to question whether they were jerks.
I do not want to be canceled. There were I do think the fact
that they were jerks honestly was the problem.
The fact that Travis could never really show Contrition for
anything, just made it so that That the public hate of him just
grew hotter and hotter because he was never truly contrite, but
I guess a question about boober to me is like, you know, the
Susan Valor thing, the cultural questions.
Mike had a great piece on the culture, we definitely damned
Uber in a certain sense, but I that but then sent in a post
Trump era where people were very worried about people.
Let you know that was like post grab them by the pussy or
whatever. You know, we were very worried
about that. And then after Uber, we saw all
these companies You know, get scrutiny over over the treatment
of women. I do think there's a question,
whether Uber was sort of the first of what became sort of a
parent at most many companies where women were poorly treated,
or I think people still associate boober with being
disproportionately bad. And I do think it's hard to know
first right? Was it just a case study because
he created all this Heap on his company, or was it actually
worse than other companies? I think part of it too, is that
it was Was Silicon Valley and that portion of the tech
industry because like, I was so numb to that kind of behavior.
When I got to San Francisco, I'd been covering Wall Street.
And so the idea of writing an expose of a large bank or a
hedgehog thing, oh my God, these guys are a holes would who would
have cared? I mean, I guess I could have
written a story about literally any Wall Street firm, but it
wouldn't have mattered it only. I'm not going to say, only I
think it primarily mattered in Silicon Valley because The
Public Image, think simple, large part to Google was that
these guys are the good guys. They figured out a way to do
business without being terrible. And they figured out a way to do
business and still treat people fantastically.
And so, when you saw the most successful of the cohort of that
era actually turn out to be jerks.
Just like the guy is working at like oh gee, you know like
Goldman Sachs or glute going back in time Solomon Brothers
are going back in time like it doesn't matter like right, it
felt different Because of the supposed culture, I cannot think
of another industry. Like if somebody wrote a story
about how like, wow people at Pepsi or mean to one another, do
you think that would like blow the lid off like the consumer
products industry? Yeah, probably not an older
industry but and I think that was the real appeal of people
from Wall Street to come to Silicon Valley that you can come
be incredibly wealthy but also do it for these companies that
exist solely for good, right? It's post you know, the 2008
crash people were so rightfully cynical about You know, the
missions of all of these companies that Silicon Valley
was like, this very appealing, Clarion call to the Wall Street
types to come here. I also think that Trump was
elected and Democrats couldn't get rid of trump.
There were no consequences in Silicon Valley companies are
made up of mostly Democrats and then when they had these sort of
trumpy style leaders like Travis, they were able to
actually show know, we can do something about this.
Moral problem in our society, we don't like, you know, the
biggest public outcry against Uber, is delete ruber, which was
based on stupid under a stupid understanding of what actually
happened. Was, totally misguided.
I mean, it, I'm not saying the people's anti Uber feelings,
were misguided. You know, those were based on
many stories, but the specific like uber got rid of surge
pricing, which was supposed to help them avoid controversy, but
then somehow that got position is if anyway, where the it
doesn't matter re-litigating about YouTuber, but Basically,
if there were people who were upset about a massive event that
they had no control over, which was the election.
They were grasping for ways to take control of something.
They saw as analogous is probably pretty astute, no
matter how, no matter how they did it, whether the way they
did, it was good or bad, whether it was ham-fisted or whether it
was really Deft. I think your point is
interesting and probably correct that they were like, we are just
trying to respond to this bigger idea that something's not right?
Right and maybe just to close off you know here with with the
theranos show, I think what continues to make that story.
So interesting is that I think it was and this gets maybe into
the controversy or debate about whether or not.
So you know theranos was a tech company is Silicon.
Valley Product is that it existed so much through the
Silicon Valley Playbook but only seem to have adopted the worst
aspects of what tech can stand for, which is just Sizzle.
It's just branding, it's just raising more money.
Money and it's just trying to get people excited about
something that they have no real reason to get excited for.
And I think the best of tech has those elements but also has a
real product behind it. And you know, theranos is sort
of everything about tech distilled to its most cynical
ends. And in a way that legitimately
harmed people and it's I never know the larger lesson.
Well, the funny thing and what you're saying is that I feel
like in the show Holmes, goes to venture.
Was and tries to pitch them, to join our business and they don't
like to some degree. It is like a validating moment
in the show for Silicon Valley, but the show can't be.
They just can't stand giving, like Finance types of wind, so
they make the VCS like sexist about her and they almost make
it seem dumb that they're not giving her their money.
Even though it's a fraudulent business.
It felt like I felt at the time. Like by that's our, she felt.
Yeah. On the cover of on the cover of
Fortune, a lot of those DC's did feel dumb for not.
For not investing, right? Yeah, yeah.
I think people should watch all three shows just because
they're, they're interesting in their own right and that they
each have like such a different view of it and if you listen to
this podcast, you can like I feel like yeah, I don't know if
you're not watching them, who is the power going to write?
Because they're not all on the same streaming service.
Oh my God, right, so many now, Tom's using some of my, I'm
using your Hulu. I am and I don't want to say the
rest for personal reasons. Let's It's a of the three
streaming services that I watch TV shows on.
I am paying for years All right, all right.
That's anyway. Yeah.
All right. This was fun guys.
Goodbye goodbye.
Goodbye. Goodbye.
Goodbye goodbye, goodbye. Goodbye.