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Welcome. 
Hey, everybody. 

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Welcome to Dead cat. 
This is Eric newcomer, Tom and 

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Katie are here. 
I've totally lost my voice. 

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I am mustering through sickness 
to make sure that someone here 

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who has been writing about AI is
on the podcast. 

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Because Katie and I are just 
here to And you are AI. 

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Standards are here. 
The first generative podcast, we

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have Nathan, who's the founder 
Soul. 

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General partner of are Street 
Capital. 

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I feel like I started covering 
European Tech. 

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And like, we started exchanging 
a lot of messages. 

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And yeah. 
So I've been looking for an 

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excuse to do something with you 
and then finally I got on the AI

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hype train and you've been 
thinking about AI for many years

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and you're like, everybody 
Welcome to the party or 

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whatever. 
Yeah, glad to have you. 

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Yeah. 
What's it feel like now that 

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everyone's obsessed with a? 
I all of a sudden as have been a

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shock or what sort of your 
reaction to the Mania of the 

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moment hasn't quite been a shock
because sort of expecting this 

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to happen in a way. 
It's great that, you know, like 

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a new advanced technology domain
gets attention from creasing, 

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Lee generalist investors or 
investors, who focus on 

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different Industries because 
almost then, you know, reaffirms

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that like the technology is for 
real and probably has 

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applications in all sorts. 
Of domains. 

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Yeah, I know your portfolio. 
Companies can get marked up like

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you just have to hope you got in
a lot of the deals explain to me

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what happened. 
Exactly because I mean if we're 

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just going to trace the 
chronology of the last year, in 

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Venture investing obviously 2020
21, may be the first half of 

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this year has been about crypto 
and you saw all these funds 

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rebranding themselves as crypto 
focused funds. 

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And all of these VCS that I used
to talk to all the time about 

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their old Investments are, like,
what the hell are you talking 

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about? 
Delivery to me. 

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I don't do delivery. 
I'm a crypto investor now, you 

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know, and I mostly do crypto and
it seems like that's all been 

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forgotten. 
Now like that's all the memory 

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holds and like they all switch 
their hats and they took off 

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their Dottie th on their hat and
they put on a I like explain to 

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me what has happened over the 
last year, the real like 

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inflection point was when you 
could Master this first viral 

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use case of machine learning, 
which is images and video like 

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before when you had text models 
that were working with you, 

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well, and you could generate 
like a script or you could talk 

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to a bot. 
There's something that's 

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fundamentally less, interesting,
reading a script with a bot, 

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then looking at these epic 
images, that never existed. 

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Before that you designed with 
your own instructions on your 

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mobile phone. 
So I'd almost call it like the 

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consumerization of machine 
learning or at least a product 

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the output of machine learning. 
Which is understandable and much

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more tangible to almost 
everybody who uses the internet.

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Then the products that came 
before and while those tools 

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like stable diffusion and Dolly 
from open a I were available to 

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people in the know for a while. 
They really came out what like 

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late August September and that 
has really sort of kicked this 

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off just because a Publix very 
aware. 

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Yeah and I think their 
distributions also been quite 

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interesting. 
From how the Machinery Mark has 

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evolved because the central 
dogma is always been that 

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centralization winds, which is 
like to be good at machine 

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learning, you need to have all 
the data, all the top people, 

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all the computers and then the 
product and you mix it together 

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and then you get sort of, you 
know, great machine learning on 

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the other side and cook, those 
been the counterbalance to that,

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which is just decentralize 
everything, give power back to 

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everybody and yeah. 
Over the first few months of 

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this year, the fact that you can
now like arm the rebels as it 

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were are These open source 
communities which are basically 

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called themselves like research 
collectives and they either 

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gather on disk or other forms 
that might not even be companies

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or corporate entities and 
provide them with access to 

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compute, which is what stability
really did. 

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It's of liberates, the 
creativity of individuals who 

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couldn't participate because 
they weren't part of the, you 

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know, the Gap, the elites, the 
in a big technology company 

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Elite. 
And that's actually led to like 

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massive open sourcing which then
busts up the centralization 

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hypothesis and shows you that 
there. 

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Like another path to building 
and distributing machine 

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learning based products thing. 
That's what I like a lot of 

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folks are getting excited about 
to how important was Dolly as a 

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product and I guess for our 
listeners that haven't used it 

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out there mean. 
This is the tool that the Eric 

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was mentioning like open a.i. 
released. 

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And it allows you through fairly
direct instructions. 

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You've got to be direct because 
it's not always that smart. 

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You've got to basically say like
in the style of Monet or in I 

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feel like the key is to like 
yeah give it a realistic, right?

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Exact right, right. 
Clip art. 

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But basically, you can give 
instructions to, you know, it 

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says some software and it will 
generate with less than a 

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minute, some fairly creative 
depiction of what you drew and 

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it's like very easy to use and 
is like a very clear product of 

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what a I can do. 
So like how important do you 

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think just that being released 
even on a beta level and then 

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more openly played into the 
excitement from investors. 

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That there's like a whole 
opportunity here. 

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I think the community Was like 
pretty Blown Away with the 

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results of Dalian specially like
Delhi to but then they get back 

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to this question of. 
Can you build businesses on the 

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apis, on the clothes, the apis 
of the large companies and know 

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there's a few that are built on 
gbt. 

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So I think that that excitement 
got even greater ones like these

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models became reproduced in the 
open source World by folks like 

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stability a looser, Etc. 
So, I think it's really just as 

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this notion of like, busting up 
centralized entities, and 

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providing tools to everybody 
else. 

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I think they've also landed 
really well, just because we 

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kind of live in this like a tick
tock generation of short form 

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images, video, and images, and 
Instagram, and the outputs of 

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these models are like perfect 
fodder for those platforms. 

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Well, what's interesting to me 
about Dolly and this lady of 

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generative images is that it's 
something that you can very 

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easily explain to someone like I
think it passes the dinner table

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test that crypto certainly had a
very difficult time doing. 

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You know like prove to us has a 
hard time passing the Tests 

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showed that grandma just trust 
me. 

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Put all your money in this 
right? 

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Different dinner table 
conversation especially with 

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older people. 
But yeah, you know it's like 

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everyone, I'm assuming all of 
our listeners spent last 

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Thanksgiving trying to explain 
to their uncle's or even worse. 

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Having their uncle's explain to 
them the value of crypto and 

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like what it can do and then 
whereas with this, it's like oh 

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why don't you think of some 
words and let me put it into a 

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prompt and I can enter it and 
it'll draw an image. 

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And at the very least you're 
like, oh wow, that is 

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impressive. 
Technology that I can't and out.

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We need you saying you can grasp
and I mean, I know it seems like

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really simplistic to put it in 
these terms. 

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But is that how investors felt 
as well? 

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It's like, oh, I get this, this 
is cool. 

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I think there's probably a bunch
of like I get this. 

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And this looks like consumer 
technology that have been used 

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to investing for a very long 
time. 

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I think the other thing too, is 
some investors realizing that 

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they don't have like a bet in a.
I like, what is my big bold 

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debt? 
And when I like the proverbial 

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investors, sees the opening eyes
were half a ton of money. 

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Do you mind doing some great 
things that there are some new 

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offshoot Labs that we provide in
our state of the air report that

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are raising tons of money? 
You know build a billion people 

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that they're kind of all these 
adjacencies that you can apply 

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machine learning to sort of get 
to just drum themselves up into 

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this fomo. 
Can you break down just like 

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generative AI versus with 
everything else? 

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Or I feel like all of a sudden, 
we're talking about generative 

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AI. 
Yeah. 

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But textbook, definition you 
basically have like to kind of 

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categories of machine learning. 
You have like, It's called 

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discriminative machine learning 
which is basically like given a 

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data set. 
How can I draw a boundary 

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between two categories in that 
data set? 

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So to decide is just like images
and animals, whereas the 

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boundary, that separates one 
species from another and then 

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you train this model on this 
data set. 

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And then it's tasks. 
When it sees new data is to just

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classify, the species is present
in the image. 

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And that's discriminative by 
contrast like generative is 

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basically where the model is 
trying to learn like the 

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statistics The probability 
distribution of a data set like 

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learned something intrinsic 
about it, such that you can ask 

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the model to basically generate 
to synthesize and you example 

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that fits that data 
distribution. 

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And so like at a high-level 
busy, what we've done is created

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models that are like able to 
sort of learn like increasingly 

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complex datasets in this case, 
like the entire internet or the 

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entirety of like Flickr or 
whatever in pairs of, you know, 

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text descriptions to Image 
representations such that when 

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you ask it to generate, like 
some arbitrary seen like, with 

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some very specific prawns, like 
it's seen different combinations

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of these things before and can 
smush them together in a way 

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that like looks nice. 
So you could, you could probably

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argue that like a lot of the 
generative AI that like we're 

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talking about today which is 
images and video and text sort 

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of like a rebranding of like 
creative AI that I used to see I

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five years ago or so. 
When especially this technology 

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called Gans regenerative 
adversarial Networks. 

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Hmm which were like you know 
very hot and IP a couple of 

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years ago we basically get like 
one model that generates an 

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image and then another model 
that says like is it good or is 

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it bad when you sort of put them
together against one? 

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Another it early and then at 
some point like the image 

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generated comes good because it 
can fool the network that saying

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is a good or bad. 
So it's sort of like not new and

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is like fundamentally part of 
like textbook machine learning, 

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you know, I feel like I'm going 
to ask the most obvious question

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here, so bear with me. 
But how does Human creativity 

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work alongside generative AI. 
It is a compete with generative 

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AI you know if we can do so much
based on extraordinary Works 

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already, created in the past 
that we all love and admire and 

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we imagine that a I could create
really pleasing interesting 

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thought-provoking work based on 
that. 

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Where does human creativity sit 
alongside that I think it? 

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Awaits you in creativity will 
just A guide almost. 

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And then these generative models
would just help you explore our 

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like this search space of what 
you could possibly make. 

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And I think I got a high level. 
It's kind of beautiful with 

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these machine learning models 
that, you know, synthesize more 

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data than any human could ever 
do in their entire career. 

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If they tried to become expert 
at something, is that kind of 

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spread over like Humanity's 
history, we can sort of get to 

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like more local Optimum 
solutions to things. 

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If you remember the alpha, go to
the case study. 

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It's like if You train the 
system on, like, as many 

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simulations, is physically 
possible in the space of time, 

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than you're probably get some 
gameplay. 

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That's better than what we've 
seen before. 

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And so it turns out that like 
all of human expertise passed on

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from one generation to another 
yields a local Optimum, that's 

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not the best that exists. 
And so I think, you know, in a 

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way that is generative systems 
are sort of guides to get us two

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more Optimal Solutions. 
And this applies to making 

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pictures prettier and prettier 
but also applies to making more 

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potent. 
Drug molecules and 

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pharmaceuticals is funny to hear
this answer in the domain of 

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creativity though. 
You're like they're going to be 

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they're going to rank in a 
higher percentile of creativity 

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than we have. 
And it's like very subjected to 

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because it takes things like 
Picasso and turns him into sort 

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of raw material. 
It turns him into a commodity, 

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right? 
Yeah, in order to generate more 

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images. 
Yeah. 

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I wanted to build on sort of 
Katies question, which is just 

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also the sort of late in like 
plagiarism stuff or just like 

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the machines taking advantage of
like past human, creativity to 

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become smarter. 
There's sort of the 

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philosophical question in that, 
where I think some artists feel 

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like, well, they're taking my 
data to build these future 

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drawings and really, I'm not 
getting the cut of that. 

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You don't know. 
It needed me. 

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So there's partially. 
It's just like philosophical, 

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but I am curious also like as an
investor. 

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Is there any like the eagle risk
here? 

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Someone was talking to me. 
You know, like this generative 

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work could be done in like, 
video games or something. 

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And you can imagine, like, the 
set of video games as much 

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smaller, and it could be much 
more obvious. 

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If you're sort of building sort 
of an algorithm off of existing,

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sort of, You Know, video game 
IP, I don't know. 

244
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How do you think about sort of 
the intellectual property of 

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what goes into these systems? 
Yeah, I think it depends on 

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that. 
The scale of the data set that 

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the models learning from because
you could probably argue if the 

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model is sucking up the entirety
of the internet and what is one 

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incremental like blog? 
Authors blog going to help this 

250
00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:04,000
model and how can they justify 
that unless perhaps like there's

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so iconic in their style like in
the artistic space with Picasso 

252
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or it could be the grounds for 
the largest class action lawsuit

253
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of all time. 
Yeah so that my words were 

254
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stolen in front of the large 
length model and I believe all 7

255
00:13:16,900 --> 00:13:18,700
billion people on earth, have 
the claim to that. 

256
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,100
I love it. 
When big law firms together with

257
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technology. 
Yes. 

258
00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:26,100
Wait a second. 
So I think that's probably one 

259
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of the only ways that like one 
can legislate against these 

260
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,700
systems, which is like it. 
The entirety of like a 

261
00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:36,700
significant pool of people to 
legislate, or two or kapha 

262
00:13:36,700 --> 00:13:40,200
lawsuits, because the individual
consumers, not going to have a 

263
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,700
say, I'd love to see that 
advertisement on TV. 

264
00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:45,200
Have you or your words been used
as part of a large language 

265
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,800
model that you feel is impeding 
on your personal rights and 

266
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,400
creativity. 
You may be entitled to a 

267
00:13:50,408 --> 00:13:52,800
settlement. 
Hey, we have a prediction in the

268
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,100
state of the air report that 
will I have some fun like, 

269
00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:58,900
content lawsuit, that will. 
I think at some point just give 

270
00:13:58,900 --> 00:14:02,200
rise to I can use for licensing 
agreement, which is like a, for 

271
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,300
example, like I'm Reddit. 
And in order to train on the 

272
00:14:05,300 --> 00:14:08,700
entirety of my Corpus of 
conversations, Etc, then you 

273
00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:11,100
have to abide by blah, blah, 
blah fascinating. 

274
00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:13,000
So, there actually, could 
theoretically be some sort of 

275
00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:16,600
Licensing elements of this that 
has to be taken to account for 

276
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,100
these large language models. 
Yeah, I mean, I think if you're 

277
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a big content owner, the best 
part is like your future 

278
00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:24,100
monetization stream and that's a
wave. 

279
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,100
You to participate in this 
teacher, that's pretty 

280
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:28,100
inevitable. 
I think what's open source like 

281
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,900
gets their hands on something? 
It's kind of an inevitable 

282
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:32,900
direction of travel. 
So then the question is, like, 

283
00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:34,800
are you Wikipedia, are you 
Encarta? 

284
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,000
So, as one of the reasons why 
there's such a rush to go in 

285
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,800
early, you know, is one reason 
that investors sort of see this 

286
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,200
on the horizon which would slow 
growth. 

287
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,200
So get in. 
Now while there are still a lot 

288
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,900
of room for very quick movement,
I think yes or no, but I think 

289
00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:53,500
if sure early then you probably 
might suffer from like being the

290
00:14:53,500 --> 00:14:55,800
tallest pop. 
P and sort of being the target, 

291
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,500
you know? 
And then once like to label and 

292
00:14:58,500 --> 00:15:02,800
has been cast, then the fast 
followers can move in, and I 

293
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,200
think that's been proven 
captures gone Spotify. 

294
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:06,900
Is he like, you know? 
Yeah, exactly. 

295
00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:10,800
I think that kind of dynamic can
happen, but it is also true that

296
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,600
in open source and just in 
communities, in general, like 

297
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,100
once you get momentum it's hard 
to stop it. 

298
00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:19,500
Unless you really screw things 
up or something new pops up. 

299
00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:22,800
And so that it's tough to think 
about what are these competitive

300
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,100
long-term modes that you can. 
Apply to sort of keep your pole 

301
00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:28,200
position. 
Did you follow the whole 

302
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,400
conflict? 
This week between stability, Ai 

303
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,700
and Runway. 
Yes, but yesterday, actually, 

304
00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:38,100
and yes, I tweeted, I was like 
open source AI for all like, 

305
00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:41,000
what can you recap? 
It here is very obscure. 

306
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,500
It's happening on hugging face, 
which is like The Message Board 

307
00:15:45,500 --> 00:15:49,600
of the sort of, the AI world. 
So I always deep in, but 

308
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,200
basically these two companies 
both back by CO2, you know, the 

309
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,400
huge investor Better stability. 
AI is basically the company that

310
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,300
put out stable diffusion with 
some other researchers and then 

311
00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:05,800
this company Runway I think 
they're co-founder participated 

312
00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:09,700
in the research with stable. 
Diffusion, they put out like an 

313
00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:12,300
update to stable diffusion 
without stability. 

314
00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:14,600
A is permission and then 
stability. 

315
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,300
A I basically said this was a 
violation of their IP and 

316
00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:21,500
threatened them and then 
eventually somehow Runway got 

317
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:24,000
them to back down, but it's like
clear. 

318
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:29,500
These sort of Open Source 
projects are not as open source.

319
00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:32,700
Maybe as represented different 
people want to own them and 

320
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:36,100
people are raising it billion 
dollar valuations off 

321
00:16:36,100 --> 00:16:38,300
Technologies. 
Where it's not clear who 

322
00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:41,200
controls them, Nathan died gloss
that right? 

323
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:42,700
Or what am I missing? 
Or what do you think's 

324
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:45,200
interesting about the whole 
incident? 

325
00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:47,800
I think you got it quite right. 
The other interesting thing is 

326
00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:52,400
like the core technology and 
paper and busy research that 

327
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,500
underpins like stability came. 
From academic environments that,

328
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,300
you know, were sort of enabled 
by large compute infrastructure.

329
00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:03,900
And so that's sort of also been 
like increasingly ignored is 

330
00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:07,599
perhaps like this ecosystem to 
become financialized by applying

331
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:12,300
large valuations to companies. 
So I was surprised, it's just 

332
00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:16,000
rise of the keyword of like 
stability IP because I thought 

333
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,500
in all the marketing but there 
is no IP because it's all open 

334
00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,200
source by default. 
It's basically open source and 

335
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,500
you understand this better than 
I do. 

336
00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:29,500
It's Source, but then stability.
I basically spent a ton to run 

337
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:32,600
simulations of it, or whatever, 
or where to train it, right? 

338
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,600
And that costs a lot of money. 
Yeah. 

339
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,300
But then, even the training work
helps everybody because that 

340
00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:41,300
system is just out there or 
yeah, stability. 

341
00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:43,100
AI isn't able to say we paid to 
train it. 

342
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:45,800
We only get the better version 
or yeah. 

343
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,000
I mean, so like this, this sort 
of like the model code and then 

344
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,700
you train it and, you know, you 
can train it on whatever say 

345
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:55,200
like, you have a data set, I 
have a Dataset will sort of get 

346
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,800
a different model because we've 
trained it on a different data 

347
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,800
set and the difference is just 
expressed by what's called 

348
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,200
weights. 
So basically this model has like

349
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,300
tons and tons of knobs and then 
you need to tune like billions 

350
00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:09,300
of knobs. 
And so if you train it on 

351
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:11,500
different, datasets will get 
slightly different, knob 

352
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:14,200
configurations. 
And then you can like list these

353
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,900
knob configurations on plugging 
face and then you can download 

354
00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:20,900
them and then and then apply 
them to your model without like 

355
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:23,400
retraining your own model and 
then you've got the same model 

356
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,600
basically. 
So these are what's called like,

357
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,400
model checkpoints weights that 
kind of thing. 

358
00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:31,500
But yeah, I mean, these 
architectures are largely in the

359
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:34,800
public domain and then the data 
set that was trained on is in 

360
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,800
the public domain and says, 
Master dies. 

361
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,800
I called lie on. 
So, unless I think a company 

362
00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:43,500
takes the open source model and 
then trains it on their own 

363
00:18:43,500 --> 00:18:48,300
Corpus of like images or video, 
and then someone steals that 

364
00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:52,100
that's like theft of Ip. 
But then if they just published 

365
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:56,600
the model, back on the Internet 
with the new ways and then say 

366
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,800
can be used for both commercial 
and research purposes than its 

367
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,800
Open Access than its connection.
If theme, that's like Tom and 

368
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,700
Katie and I have like, discussed
over the years and it's always 

369
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:09,400
interesting. 
Technology is like a sense of 

370
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,800
like fatalism in Tech where it's
like if something's happening 

371
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,500
Silicon Valley doesn't always 
want to have like some huge 

372
00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:19,400
ethical debate about it because 
there's just sort of a realism 

373
00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:21,800
that like what the cats out of 
the barn. 

374
00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:25,000
I mean, I think we saw with 
like, Opening. 

375
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:30,200
I write like dolly was slower to
be open access than some of 

376
00:19:30,208 --> 00:19:33,700
these others and then like 
stable diffusion basically 

377
00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:37,900
jumped the gate and then dollies
like fuck it will be out there 

378
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:41,700
too. 
I mean do you think like this is

379
00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:44,900
like a controlled enough 
situation where anybody can be 

380
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:48,800
thoughtful about, like how 
technology should develop or do 

381
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,500
you think this is just sort of 
like a Mad Dash where it feels 

382
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:54,400
like this has happened? 
Inning. 

383
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,100
I should be the one to monetize 
it before somebody else. 

384
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,300
Well, I don't think the primary 
motivation for stability is 

385
00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:03,500
monetizing. 
I think it's really Distributing

386
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:07,000
like systems to anybody who 
wants to run them and who can 

387
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,300
benefit from them. 
But I do think it has some 

388
00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:13,300
implications over, like the kind
of alignment and safety and 

389
00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:15,600
guard wills and things like this
around these systems. 

390
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:20,000
And I mean the canonical like 
example was open EI and big tech

391
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,300
companies that have their own 
views as to what people could 

392
00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:25,500
use these tools. 
As for in the form of filtering,

393
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:29,100
certain prompts that Woodgate, 
the model from creating certain 

394
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:30,600
things. 
There were deemed to be like 

395
00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:33,200
unsavory. 
And then, the alternative is 

396
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,900
like stabilities. 
Anybody can go do this, but in a

397
00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:40,400
way, like, who should decide who
gets worked, and how in a way 

398
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,100
you could say that, you know, 
the entirety of humanity that's 

399
00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:46,400
going to work on these open 
source models could potentially 

400
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,500
get to a better place than a few
people, in a single company. 

401
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,700
That's pretty much the 
experiment that's getting run at

402
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:57,800
the moment because as you say, 
like, once one company goes, 

403
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,400
open source, it's for game 
theoretical everybody else has 

404
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,700
to if you want to be relevant, 
hence, the like Wikipedia versus

405
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:07,000
Encarta analogy, that I think is
quite topical here. 

406
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,400
You know whether either of them 
end up being good. 

407
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,600
Let lucrative companies is like 
another question, but this is 

408
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,200
only like the first-order 
effect. 

409
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,300
You have all the second order 
effects, which is what other 

410
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:19,100
fields are going to benefit from
these Innovations. 

411
00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:21,100
And that's where I mean spending
like a lot of time. 

412
00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:24,500
And especially as these kinds of
models touch like problems in 

413
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:27,400
biology and chemistry, and 
physics and Drug Discovery and 

414
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,500
things like that. 
And that sort of occurring of 

415
00:21:29,508 --> 00:21:32,000
the in the shadows because it's 
slightly Technical and goes back

416
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,900
to like the non-viral consumer 
e, these cases of machine 

417
00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:38,800
learning, but it's very real. 
We're all writers. 

418
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:42,200
How terrified you think we 
should be that generative? 

419
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,400
AI will successfully replace 
writing like some PCS say, oh, 

420
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,100
writings even easier than images
right? 

421
00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:55,000
Hard. 
Like I mean, somebody wrote like

422
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,500
one Masters and one PhD thesis 
and I try and write a newsletter

423
00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:01,200
as good as Eric's, but like this
is hard. 

424
00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:02,700
So I can use classic like 
perrito. 

425
00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:05,400
Like, I think you can do, you 
know, 80% of the job. 

426
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,400
And then the question is, like, 
how easy is it? 

427
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,800
As a user experience to solve 
the last 20? 

428
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,200
And I think in many of the 
writing assistance that I've 

429
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,800
tried, it's like, you know, 
generates text, but then you 

430
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,800
kind of get halfway through you 
like this garbage. 

431
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,800
Like, this is not good enough. 
One of the newsletter writers 

432
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,600
did Ali-A, I driven tweet storm,
that went viral and he said it 

433
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,800
was like his best and I guess my
throwback on this writing 

434
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,900
question is almost like, My 
worry is about the audience. 

435
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,800
Like, I think, like, you me, 
like we're writing the 80 to 100

436
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,200
is very different. 
It's like, oh, this looks like 

437
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,200
good writing. 
Yeah, it is incoherent. 

438
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,200
The people you're referencing 
aren't real or like whatever, 

439
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,500
you know, the actual Logic, the 
key. 

440
00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:49,000
The real key part is not there 
but the Aesthetics of it, that 

441
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,300
it looks like something you 
would say. 

442
00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:54,400
It feels like Like has takes 
like it feels like a clean 

443
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,400
solution to a problem that's 
there. 

444
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,900
And so if the audience is dumb 
enough, you know, then you could

445
00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:03,900
make money off of it, you could 
build a large audience and I 

446
00:23:03,908 --> 00:23:06,100
feel like that's sort of 
terrifying that like, part of 

447
00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:08,700
what's been protecting. 
The world is just that the 

448
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:11,000
people doing the writing want to
believe that. 

449
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,100
It's like coherent. 
But if you just like, unleash a 

450
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:18,400
sort of generative AI, it's 
like, well, can people tell the 

451
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,600
difference or not? 
I mean, do you think that's too 

452
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,900
cynical? 
Or do you see my sort of fear 

453
00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:26,900
there that the humans need to be
good at like they need to care 

454
00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:30,700
enough that it makes sense. 
Yeah I mean I'm kind of from a 

455
00:23:30,708 --> 00:23:34,000
positive like if I can get like 
a that's a low bar to be more 

456
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,200
positive than invite guests, 
system that can deal. 

457
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,200
Take my like English written 
newsletter and writing in like 

458
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,600
God knows how many different 
languages or create different 

459
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,100
formats or create hot takes that
are shareable on different 

460
00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:49,900
platforms or can just speak it 
in the same way than I've spoken

461
00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:51,100
and I've tried to do that 
manually. 

462
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:53,600
It's a pain. 
Like I'm happy being like 10 

463
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,600
bucks a month for that. 
Like and I wouldn't be really 

464
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,500
not concerned with take my job 
right at the belt, like, you 

465
00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:01,000
know, amplifying the things that
I'm already doing but like 

466
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,500
moving some of the like real 
work, whether it ends up like 

467
00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:06,600
entirely replacing me. 
I think, obviously, that's just 

468
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,900
like, very hard to tell and by 
that point, maybe I'll have 

469
00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:11,100
found something else. 
I want to do. 

470
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:15,400
So, and language is so filled 
with Nuance, in terms of word 

471
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:16,700
choice translation. 
It's interesting. 

472
00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:18,700
You brought that up translation 
is actually in some ways. 

473
00:24:18,700 --> 00:24:22,200
Extremely hard, because straight
trans Ation often does not 

474
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:27,200
capture meaning at all. 
So it's a, you know, language is

475
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,300
very tricky. 
Imagine a straight translation 

476
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:30,900
of The Iliad. 
I mean, that wouldn't really 

477
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:33,600
work, right? 
Yeah, may I, somebody was just 

478
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,800
telling me yesterday that AI is 
very appealing in the sort of 

479
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,000
cross cultural context, because 
you could imagine, like, novels 

480
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,900
where right now, the novel's 
talks about like New York city 

481
00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:46,200
where the authors from, but if 
you want to sell to a 

482
00:24:46,208 --> 00:24:49,600
mass-market audience, like you 
could say, oh this machine's 

483
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,800
going to figure out, This 
readers and like Beijing or 

484
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,900
whatever, and we'll replace it 
with like their favorite like a 

485
00:24:55,908 --> 00:24:59,400
local shop and even if it's like
you know imperfect and doesn't 

486
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,200
get the language, right? 
It's still like better than 

487
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,700
today where there's no effort 
made to sort of Pander to the 

488
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:08,400
reader. 
So I mean, we could enter this 

489
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,600
world where I like stuff is 
really sort of catered to that 

490
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,900
literature is, would it be 
better to read like Lord of the 

491
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:19,800
Rings and have it set in 
Washington d.c., right? 

492
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,200
Yeah, like Let's replace, 
Middle-earth, you know, I would 

493
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,100
go with the Capitol Hill and you
will toss the ring into the 

494
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:30,700
fires of the Rotunda don't want 
to imagine a world. 

495
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:33,100
I've never seen before. 
That's not the fucking point of 

496
00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:34,800
fiction. 
Yes, it is actually the fucking 

497
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,900
point of picture. 
Well, you know, it's interesting

498
00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:40,700
though is that like that kind of
piggybacks onto this idea of all

499
00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:42,900
content being catered to our 
personal tastes? 

500
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,100
And this sort of social 
media-driven idea of, you know, 

501
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:50,500
algorithmic driven consumption. 
And like, why shouldn't you know

502
00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:52,100
the next? 
I don't even know what popular 

503
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:54,600
book series are out there these 
days but you know like the next 

504
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,300
Nobel winning book, be iterated 
towards the different audiences 

505
00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:01,000
because that's the way people 
consume everything else. 

506
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,600
You know, there's no advantage 
to Central entertainment, 

507
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,500
centralized experiences, 
something that you have to, you 

508
00:26:06,508 --> 00:26:09,500
know, relate to other people's 
point of view that's done with 

509
00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:10,900
that's over. 
That's the old one. 

510
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:13,900
However, I would like to see a 
Hunger Games La version. 

511
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,100
Sure. 
Yeah, I mean, in a way it's like

512
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:20,500
Mass personalization everybody 
gets their own version but in a 

513
00:26:20,508 --> 00:26:23,400
way it's kind of sad because 
that it's like loss of opinions.

514
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,100
It's also a loss of a cohesive 
experience, it's lost. 

515
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,200
I mean like women this is ages 
ago and I didn't read these 

516
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,600
books until much later because 
Eric made me but Harry Potter is

517
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,800
a great example of a series of 
books, that created a creative 

518
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:44,800
imaginative experience that 
people across cultures age 

519
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,600
groups, socio-economic groups, 
races and genders could all 

520
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,700
encounter together. 
And do we not want to have 

521
00:26:52,700 --> 00:26:54,600
things that bring people 
together anymore? 

522
00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:58,500
Like any good Millennial. 
I militantly insisted the Katie 

523
00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:00,500
read. 
It was really intense. 

524
00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:03,500
It was a lot of pressure. 
It was a long queue monthly 

525
00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:06,600
month-long campaign. 
I like how sad for you. 

526
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,500
And my request is an exchange 
for house-sitting. 

527
00:27:09,700 --> 00:27:11,800
Yes, a you read her. 
I left you. 

528
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:17,500
Like my own copies or switch was
like so intense because they're,

529
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:19,500
like, Mormons out there. 
There were like, chill out a 

530
00:27:19,508 --> 00:27:22,600
little bit more busty. 
You don't have to leave it 

531
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,300
everywhere. 
Yeah. 

532
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:26,500
I don't know. 
It's funny. 

533
00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:29,800
I mean you want me to have that 
experience because you wanted 

534
00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:32,600
right? 
And so we could be friends and 

535
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,100
understand me, right? 
Like if we don't have that shit 

536
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:38,500
anymore, that we share, that's 
not of our own personal 

537
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:40,800
preference like what what do we 
have? 

538
00:27:40,900 --> 00:27:43,200
But you know where I could see 
that concept being actually very

539
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,800
appealing to Publishers is the 
idea of stuff being, you know, 

540
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,100
of its time and like not aging 
very well. 

541
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,500
I don't mean like a thematic lie
but I mean like we're Choice or,

542
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:55,500
you know, the stuff in between 
Huckleberry, Finn example. 

543
00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:57,800
Yeah, Choice. 
Yeah. 

544
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,000
I mean, yeah. 
I don't even know what like the 

545
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,000
a I woke version of Huckleberry 
Finn would call, you know. 

546
00:28:04,100 --> 00:28:07,900
Mr. Jim but like yeah it's all 
those things. 

547
00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:09,700
Anyway, I don't want to spend 
time on that but my point is, I 

548
00:28:09,708 --> 00:28:12,100
can see actually that idea being
like, well why can't a book? 

549
00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:16,500
Be like a dynamic thing. 
And over time, a I can identify 

550
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:20,200
what are the problematic themes 
and words in the book and update

551
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,000
in a way that you know, Doesn't 
offend people in a way that it 

552
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,400
might have at the time that it 
was written. 

553
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,500
I mean, it seems so starts in 
the video game environment of, 

554
00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:30,000
like programming. 
These non-player characters that

555
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,600
have certain behaviors respond 
in certain ways and therefore 

556
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,200
give like a unique experience to
the game player. 

557
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,200
And like the way they're trained
is quite cool to where you can 

558
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,600
like import an example of a 
conversation or a script and 

559
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,500
then sort of like, tune some 
knobs based on personality 

560
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:49,500
traits, say, you know, I don't 
know they behave like Zeus or 

561
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:51,000
something and then the agent 
knows that. 

562
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,700
Because it's like read all of 
Wikipedia and stuff like this. 

563
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,600
So it was pretty wild to see 
that. 

564
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,700
And so perhaps it's like more in
these Virtual Worlds with this 

565
00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:00,300
will happen. 
And in the beginning of our 

566
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:02,500
conversation, I mean you were 
sort of nodding to the fact 

567
00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:07,700
that, you know, a lot of the way
I work is very open source and 

568
00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:10,900
like sort of not totally like 
Financial driven. 

569
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:14,400
I don't know. 
But is there like a clear, like,

570
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,900
AI researcher sort of like 
ideology or like, what are the 

571
00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:20,700
sort of like camps in terms of 
the culture? 

572
00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:24,400
That's Emerging in this space. 
As you see it or is it just too 

573
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,900
big to have something like 
crypto was unique? 

574
00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:29,200
Because I had the 
financialization to sort of get 

575
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,200
everyone in line and sort of 
creature culture. 

576
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,300
Does a I have something like 
that same sort of shared 

577
00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:40,100
culture, I think then what are 
the new demarcations I've seen 

578
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:43,800
as Iran safety and Alignment. 
Like those a very, very, very 

579
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,200
small number of people that are 
working on this topic of like, 

580
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,200
if we invent a GI, like how do 
we make sure that it aligns 

581
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,300
broadly with Preferences. 
This is based on the concept 

582
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:57,500
that like any prior species that
was smarter than the one that 

583
00:29:57,500 --> 00:30:01,600
came before it like generally 
made a pretty bad experience for

584
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,300
the species that was there 
before. 

585
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,700
And so like there's a 
construction of people that 

586
00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:09,200
don't want to work on 
capabilities anymore, which is 

587
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:10,800
broadly, like making ahead 
better. 

588
00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:14,300
And they only want to work on 
making a, I say 40 more aligned,

589
00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:17,400
then you're supportive of that 
skeptical of that or do you have

590
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,200
a personal point of view? 
Yeah. 

591
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,000
I think I'm generally supportive
of that. 

592
00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:24,400
That's like anthropic, right? 
Is a big company in that space. 

593
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,200
Yeah. 
And throughout the small one in 

594
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,900
London called conjecture this 
one called Redwood research. 

595
00:30:29,900 --> 00:30:32,600
There's a few people that open 
the eye, that a couple dozen 

596
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,100
people, how do they make their 
money? 

597
00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:37,400
Is it just like, tithes from the
actually profitable companies 

598
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,100
to, like, feel good about 
themselves for the moment? 

599
00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:41,900
They don't, you have to the 
Moon, they do. 

600
00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:45,400
They've just been through a Venn
diagram overlap between safety 

601
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,300
and alignment and effective 
altruism. 

602
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:51,500
And so, we've seen for example, 
like Dustin moskovitz, Events 

603
00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:55,700
that we philanthropy and send 
back and treated FTX who funded 

604
00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:59,300
a lot of these projects. 
And as BF did the massive round 

605
00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:02,200
anthropic. 
So, none of these companies are 

606
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,200
revenue-generating at. 
I don't know if they have 

607
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,800
aspirations to be, but they 
certainly want to create better 

608
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,500
tools for alignment. 
And you're very specific point 

609
00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:14,100
that, you know, more 
sophisticated or more advanced 

610
00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:18,500
species, you know, sort of 
crush, the one below that, you 

611
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:20,900
know, I study philosophy in 
college and I'm a big lie. 

612
00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:25,200
Like you know, bite the bullet. 
Type person on moral intuitions 

613
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,700
and there's a certain type of 
argument that if you're like a 

614
00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:31,800
die-hard utilitarian and you 
find out like that this new 

615
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:37,000
super a I like experiences more 
utility than human beings can 

616
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,600
and gets like, more joy, more, 
whatever the utility calculus 

617
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,600
is, they get like more of it 
than you should sort of route 

618
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,600
for the AI to Wipeout human 
beings. 

619
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,400
Like, if resources could more 
efficiently, go to the AI, which

620
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,000
gets better, Use that. 
It makes sense for it to go 

621
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,800
there, which I think is sort of 
a hysterical. 

622
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,600
Like, I'm gonna bite the bullet,
all the way on this one and Say,

623
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,000
Goodbye human beings. 
That sounds like an argument and

624
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,600
a, I would make error, sorry. 
I don't know. 

625
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,000
I'm also very worried about 
rocas basilisk. 

626
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,300
So I guess this would be a very,
you know, a that also sounds 

627
00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:20,400
like something we've talked 
about that. 

628
00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:26,400
This Overlord a I already that 
sort of exists like across time.

629
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:29,700
And so to save yourself, you 
need to be working towards its 

630
00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:34,100
existence because anyone who 
doesn't will be like terribly 

631
00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:36,100
punished and so, yeah, you 
should. 

632
00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:38,800
This is, this is the plot of 
Verizon 0.5. 

633
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:45,600
I know how that one Ends music. 
By the way, I imagine that's a 

634
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,700
big use case for this 
technology, right? 

635
00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:49,900
Yeah. 
Well, music is one that was 

636
00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:51,000
again. 
Like tried several? 

637
00:32:51,100 --> 00:32:53,400
Years ago. 
And that maybe now is that an 

638
00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:56,600
inflection point to. 
So we had a business a couple 

639
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,400
years ago called Juke deck which
eventually sold to by dense but 

640
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,700
they were like one of the oh 
geez that machines creating 

641
00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:06,100
music. 
And now it's probably a ton 

642
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:09,000
better but I'm kind of like 
excited about maybe like the 

643
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,200
more esoteric applications that 
are not super obvious that could

644
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,100
have a business called intense 
eye, which does help and safety.

645
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:19,700
Basically, like, protecting 
individuals and Manufacturing, 

646
00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:22,400
industrial environments, who 
Ooh, unfortunately get injured 

647
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,700
because those environments are 
dangerous or, you know, 

648
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:29,500
accidents happen and this is 
great documentary on Netflix, 

649
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:31,100
which is like a perfect primer 
for why? 

650
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:33,400
This is an issue called American
Factory? 

651
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,700
Sure the Obama Doctrine. 
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

652
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,900
So this is like a solution in a 
way to some of the problems that

653
00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:43,500
manifest, their where you're 
trying to like have good health 

654
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:47,300
and safety practices, but it's 
just hard to do that walking 

655
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:50,500
around with a clipboard trying 
to instruct people who don't 

656
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:52,100
wear the right. 
Active equipment things. 

657
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:54,300
So they use computer vision to 
apply this. 

658
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:57,400
It's are like a cyber security 
solution for the real world and 

659
00:33:57,700 --> 00:34:00,000
like we've already seen that, 
like, some large companies that 

660
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,900
implement this immediately, you 
know, after like a week or two 

661
00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:07,100
weeks, see huge reduction, and 
alerts and dangerous, behaviors 

662
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:10,100
telling, that's like one like I 
didn't really know anything 

663
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,600
about before I encountered this 
company and watch this 

664
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,800
documentary and realize like 
shit. 

665
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,000
This is massive with like big 
implications and makes your 

666
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,800
system pretty cool machine 
learning but it's like just like

667
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,699
Number one, or number two 
priority for a certain category 

668
00:34:23,699 --> 00:34:26,400
customer was really excited 
about these sort of domains 

669
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,900
rather than like, the, what's in
like the glitzy. 

670
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:33,100
Obvious Limelight, that every VC
is going to kind of vibe with 

671
00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:35,100
see that feels like, it's even 
more aligned with. 

672
00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:38,100
Are its argument that the AI 
should wipe us all out because 

673
00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:41,600
if we as humans can't even 
protect ourselves without using 

674
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,100
an AI, you know, it's like 
protect ourselves from each 

675
00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:46,800
other, it would seem like 
there's no hope, right? 

676
00:34:46,900 --> 00:34:49,300
I mean I would argue that some 
people think that that kind of 

677
00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:53,900
use of AI is Wiping humans out. 
I mean we have seen some of 

678
00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:56,100
these things especially 
Industries like long-haul 

679
00:34:56,100 --> 00:35:00,800
Trucking where more and more of 
the decisions that one can make 

680
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,200
are being given over to a 
machine and a person is sort of 

681
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,200
peripheral to the process and 
it's not necessarily. 

682
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,800
Well, it is physically reducing 
things like accidents. 

683
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,200
What do you think about what's 
happening to the human beings 

684
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,300
involved? 
You could argue that there are 

685
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,900
other negative consequences that
perhaps haven't been 

686
00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:19,800
anticipated. 
So I don't know, Tommy, well, 

687
00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:23,100
maybe we'll have it both. 
Ways humans will be wiped out 

688
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,100
either way, right? 
Right. 

689
00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:27,900
The richest destitute for the 
jobs that were taken away from 

690
00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:31,900
us by a eyes or, you know, we 
just don't use the aib, just all

691
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:33,900
died of massive injuries in our 
factories. 

692
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:36,700
Yeah, yeah. 
These are going to guys are. 

693
00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:39,000
Come on, you're optimistic about
it, right? 

694
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,400
I mean I think it's pretty 
amazing. 

695
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:43,700
I think this is gonna be the 
biggest like productivity gain 

696
00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:47,800
for human beings and like a long
time I think it's going to be a 

697
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,500
massive Revolution. 
I'm like yeah, it's true. 

698
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,400
So true. 
Believer in like AI changing 

699
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,500
human existence far more than 
crypto and like very happy to 

700
00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:59,100
see Silicon Valley. 
Yes, moving back this. 

701
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:01,200
Yeah, I agree with. 
I mean, I think that you're 

702
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,800
totally right by the 
productivity gain, I just am not

703
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,000
sure their productivity gain is 
the Baseline measurement for 

704
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,400
whether or not humanity is 
getting better or worse. 

705
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,200
Well, government needs to do 
something to say, okay. 

706
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,100
We've made these productivity 
gains therefore, you know, we're

707
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:19,600
not going to just keep grinding 
every human being out or it 

708
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,200
requires Paul. 
Let's see maybe to cash in some 

709
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,300
of the benefits for people 
instead of just me. 

710
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,300
I think, the, my Baseline is 
like what kinds of problems like

711
00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:33,100
weren't addressable before that 
now become addressable because 

712
00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:35,200
we have this new technology, 
right? 

713
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,400
So, some of that might drive 
productivity ends, some of them 

714
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,600
might not, but I think that's 
like the coolest unlock. 

715
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,700
It's like what can you do if a 
solution requires, more than 

716
00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:50,300
like a web app in a database, 
like a nice UI or something? 

717
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,700
Peter's dominate Us in chess, 
they can dominate Us in, 

718
00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:57,300
presumably drug Discovery or 
whatever. 

719
00:36:57,300 --> 00:36:59,600
Once we figure that, I mean, 
that was what I took you to be 

720
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,600
saying earlier, it's like, yeah,
we're not the best in the world 

721
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,700
at games that we've been playing
for much of sort of 

722
00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:09,700
sophisticated Humanity. 
It's very likely, we're not 

723
00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:11,300
going to be the best at other 
things. 

724
00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:14,800
We can do especially of games 
that we need better tools to 

725
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:15,500
understand. 
Right. 

726
00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:17,200
Right. 
Well, it seems like, I mean, if 

727
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,800
I could delineate the 80/20 
issue here, you know, 80 is 

728
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,600
being like we've developed an AI
that can beat us all in 

729
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,900
Jeopardy, but like, the last 20%
is, like, developing an AI that 

730
00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:31,400
can host Jeopardy. 
And that seems like it's the 

731
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,400
hardest thing to do. 
I mean, we hardly can host it 

732
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:34,900
ourselves. 
Well, yeah, we get to set the 

733
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:37,100
expert. 
I mean, that's why people think,

734
00:37:37,100 --> 00:37:42,900
you know, if anything a I could 
be good for sort of emotive 

735
00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:45,500
interpersonal tight or 
professions. 

736
00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:49,500
Yeah, because humans get to set 
the score on that and say we 

737
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:52,900
actually we prefer I mean like 
yeah, it's true. 

738
00:37:52,900 --> 00:37:55,600
Like I'm a friend right now 
who's in the hospital with 

739
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,300
cancer and I think she'd rather 
have the bad news delivered to 

740
00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:03,500
her by a human being. 
He held her hand and be 

741
00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:07,800
emotionally connected to her in 
a real way rather than a I yeah.

742
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,600
I think I think it's going to be
hard to replace that. 

743
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,800
Yeah, this is true but I think 
I'd even in that example, we 

744
00:38:13,808 --> 00:38:17,200
have a company that is not part 
of a bigger drug Discovery, 

745
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,100
business called xen cheetah. 
But like in every case like the 

746
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:22,200
doctor is trying. 
To make an assessment as to, 

747
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,600
which therapeutic strategy is 
the best for this patient. 

748
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,200
And that's really, it's really 
hard choice to make. 

749
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,300
And at the moment, like, what 
they've been doing is at best 

750
00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:34,500
sort of like, doing a biopsy and
sequencing and seeing what is 

751
00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:36,200
the gene that might be causing 
the cancer? 

752
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,000
And then just taking a drug 
that, you know, in theory fights

753
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,500
that specific mutation. 
But this company that we 

754
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:45,400
invested in, they actually take 
that same biopsy and base if you

755
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,300
run like a clinical trial in the
dish. 

756
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,000
By having that biopsy and the 
presence of like one of hundreds

757
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,400
of different cancer agents and 
you can functionally measure, 

758
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,300
whether this drug is, you know, 
fighting the cancer or not. 

759
00:38:59,900 --> 00:39:02,300
And they've actually proven that
like you see, statistically 

760
00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:05,900
higher survival rates because 
you're functionally assessing 

761
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,500
cancer, drug performance against
the patient's. 

762
00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:12,200
Tumor versus just in a very 
reductionist way like doing 

763
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,400
mutation and Drug matching and 
that step I have. 

764
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,900
No doubt is going to make huge 
advances. 

765
00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:18,900
And I'm just saying that like, 
Somebody has to hold her hand 

766
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:21,100
and say, you're going to die. 
I think most people would rather

767
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:22,900
have that news delivered by a 
human being. 

768
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:27,800
Yeah and also like we saw a lot 
of this to during the pandemic. 

769
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,100
When people had to do things 
like give birth by themselves, 

770
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,600
just alone messages coming into 
their phone. 

771
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,700
For some reason didn't really 
feel that comforting. 

772
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:38,700
They didn't really like that was
an optimal experience. 

773
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,100
They still wanted a human being 
one of a new standing next to 

774
00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:45,600
them while they did this but 
they just couldn't have it. 

775
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,000
Yeah, I think for the most 
intimate and personal of 

776
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,700
interactions in a, I should 
never replace it. 

777
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:53,700
Like, it's not something that 
unless you're absolutely lonely.

778
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:56,300
And, you know, that's a whole 
other thing to people chat, you 

779
00:39:56,300 --> 00:39:58,100
having conversations. 
I mean, that's just the essence.

780
00:39:58,100 --> 00:40:00,800
The essence of being human is 
being lonely, right? 

781
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,300
Right. 
But I mean, that would probably 

782
00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:05,400
like the last, you know, quarter
of the last, you know, moment of

783
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,200
humanity is like us helping 
ourselves, you know, into our 

784
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,200
obsolescence and, you know, 
eventual destruction as we 

785
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,600
Comfort ourselves into our 
death. 

786
00:40:15,100 --> 00:40:16,900
But isn't it so interesting, 
they were even having a 

787
00:40:16,908 --> 00:40:18,400
conversation. 
Firming. 

788
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,600
The idea that in life's most 
intimate moments, we actually 

789
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,600
want human interaction just in 
case anybody. 

790
00:40:25,300 --> 00:40:29,000
Yeah, just just reminding 
ourselves but like I said the 

791
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,000
last human, you know, Comforts 
The Lassie the second-to-last 

792
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,300
human or vice versa you know in 
the a Eyes Were Watching us 

793
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:37,500
through their screens and saying
it is almost done. 

794
00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:43,200
This is such clear this this is 
an AI derived modification of 

795
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:49,000
William Faulkner's Nobel 
acceptance speech, clearly Why? 

796
00:40:49,900 --> 00:40:52,800
So you'd like the last puny 
voice of humankind bringing it 

797
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,200
up, you know, across the hills 
that I like this. 

798
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,300
Like his last day. 
Yeah. 

799
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,300
Comforts the last day. 
I I knew what I can add those 

800
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:04,800
conversations that I like you. 
Nice there that does not have 

801
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,400
found. 
Is that I've met I like working 

802
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,400
on like practical Solutions like
real problems. 

803
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,200
Like not not this thing when 
you're gone, her friends, I 

804
00:41:12,207 --> 00:41:19,900
think. 
Sighs about what a generally. 

805
00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:23,400
I will mean, and I'll write, I 
mean, it's not just sort of the 

806
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,500
mass, I mean, right? 
You spent a lot of time with 

807
00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:27,200
these are nine exercises? 
Yeah. 

808
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,700
I actually don't spend a lot of 
time thinking about generally, I

809
00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:33,600
to be honest because you think 
it's sort of just a total mind 

810
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,300
game distraction or you just 
like don't find any, I think it 

811
00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:39,100
is a bit of a distraction to 
some degree like it's a bit of a

812
00:41:39,100 --> 00:41:40,900
short term for me in terms of 
traction. 

813
00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:44,300
Like I've no idea when this will
happen and I don't know about 

814
00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:47,700
you know, like these surveys 
that ask people, you know, over 

815
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,500
What space of time? 
Do you think Jolly? 

816
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:52,500
I can can arise the in many 
cases like those questions are 

817
00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:55,500
formulated in a way that 
presupposes, an answer and so 

818
00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:58,800
they kind of bias around a bit 
but you're saying the survey say

819
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,800
sooner than you think is 
credible or yeah to what degree?

820
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,300
I don't know. 
But yeah it does feel a bit 

821
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:06,700
sooner and by the way like the 
date is like been getting closer

822
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,100
well and also people are 
incentivized to make it sound 

823
00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:11,200
like it's sooner than it is 
because that makes it sound like

824
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,500
a reasonable investment. 
What's I saw was driving car. 

825
00:42:13,500 --> 00:42:18,300
Yeah. 
Cars. 

826
00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:21,900
They can't predict general 
intelligence cool. 

827
00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:24,600
Thanks so much for coming on. 
Yeah, thanks for having me. 

828
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,800
And Tom are we wrapping on this 
or you want to do more? 

829
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,000
Sure. 
If you guys wanna stick around, 

830
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,500
we can spend a few minutes on 
the email. 

831
00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:33,000
We can do that. 
But Nathan, thanks so much for 

832
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,100
coming on. 
Really, really appreciate great 

833
00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:37,100
to talk to you. 
Thanks again, thanks. 

834
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:42,100
Thank you. 
Do you want to spend a few 

835
00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:46,000
minutes on the email or do you a
rabbit as a foot email that he 

836
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,600
sent about pronoun? 
Yeah, so this Was the, I guess 

837
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,600
now, former CEO of mail, mail 
chimp mail came. 

838
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,300
The reason I wanted to go 
through it is not because, you 

839
00:42:55,300 --> 00:42:57,500
know, I mean, the email itself I
thought was pretty hysterical, 

840
00:42:57,500 --> 00:43:00,000
but also it does touch on a few 
things that I've actually been 

841
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,300
themes on the show before, and 
so beyond, just like laughing at

842
00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:06,100
this guy, for sending a 1500 
word email to is. 

843
00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:11,000
She was, you know, she never 
liked any HR person, Eddie HR 

844
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,000
person would have like, throwing
themselves off a building to 

845
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,400
stop it from happening, but you 
know, no one, no one tells these

846
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,100
things to CEOs. 
I don't know how dedicated you 

847
00:43:19,107 --> 00:43:22,900
think these HR people or their 
companies that yeah, yeah, 

848
00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:26,000
clearly a couple, you know, like
I'm email marketing firm has 

849
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,300
acquired by insults like HR 
person. 

850
00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:29,900
If you're thinking about 
throwing yourself off, a 

851
00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:32,500
building on behalf of your 
company, you need to wake up. 

852
00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:34,700
Let me just read through the 
email, we could just reflect it 

853
00:43:34,707 --> 00:43:37,200
for a little bit and then if we 
see, it's getting longer, it's 

854
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,500
boring because just we could 
just call the episode. 

855
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,200
Okay, so again, this is an email
that was sent by the now, ousted

856
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,400
CEO MailChimp, which is an email
marketing firm. 

857
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,600
The story was broken by Former. 
And so we shiver who's the 

858
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,500
writer there? 
So this is the email, sorry, the

859
00:43:52,508 --> 00:43:55,400
guy's name is something Chestnut
or something? 

860
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,800
I don't know him. 
By the way, big Chestnut, 

861
00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,200
Chestnut. 
No. 

862
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,100
Hi team. 
I've been really impressed by 

863
00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:04,400
how well the new employee 
onboarding is be going lately. 

864
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,000
We're bringing on so many new 
peeps. 

865
00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:07,200
Oh, yeah, that's the thing. 
In the email. 

866
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,400
He calls people peeps. 
The whole time through. 

867
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:12,400
We're bringing on so many new 
peeps and in turn, they're 

868
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,600
bringing on their own great 
questions and making the chats 

869
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,500
very Lively. 
Kudos, I want to take a quick 

870
00:44:17,500 --> 00:44:19,700
moment. 
So lightly recalibrate something

871
00:44:19,700 --> 00:44:22,700
before it goes too far. 
This is where it starts. 

872
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,900
I've never read this. 
So I'm like, experiencing this 

873
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:27,800
life, okay? 
I'm sure Katie hasn't either 

874
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,000
because she has other things to 
do, I am noticing that whenever 

875
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,600
new employees introduced 
themselves in Zoom before asking

876
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,400
your question, they're also 
announcing their pronouns. 

877
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,400
This is completely unnecessary 
when a woman parentheses, who 

878
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,100
was clearly a woman to tell us 
that her pronouns are quotes she

879
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:47,700
/ her and a man parentheses who 
was clearly a man to tell. 

880
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,600
Tell us that his pronouns are 
quote, he / him. 

881
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,900
However, if there is an employee
with gender dysphoria, in the 

882
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:56,300
room, who feels more 
comfortable, this is coming from

883
00:44:56,300 --> 00:44:58,300
the CEO. 
By the way, to all of the, like,

884
00:44:58,300 --> 00:45:01,100
all the employees of the 
company, just want to make that 

885
00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:02,500
clear. 
There's an employee with gender 

886
00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:04,900
dysphoria in the room who feels 
more comfortable if we know 

887
00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:07,100
about and use a non-obvious 
pronoun. 

888
00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:09,900
For them on obvious means that 
they might appear to be one 

889
00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:11,400
gender to others. 
But in their minds, they 

890
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,000
consider themselves to be 
another gender. 

891
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,500
They are very welcome to 
Proclaim that pronoun to others 

892
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:17,700
in the room and for the record. 
It is my desire. 

893
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,900
That MailChimp is a respectful 
place that will honor that 

894
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:22,300
request, the name of inclusion. 
So basically like the guy is 

895
00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:26,100
trying to explain himself and 
they why is writing this email 

896
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:29,500
and do it in a way that's very 
thoughtful and, you know, he's 

897
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:31,500
not trying to say, I have a 
direct issue with people 

898
00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:33,200
claiming their one gender or 
another, you know, it's going to

899
00:45:33,207 --> 00:45:36,500
be very, you know, whatever. 
But this is where the problems 

900
00:45:36,500 --> 00:45:38,000
kind of cut, crop out the next 
paragraph. 

901
00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:40,600
It seems as though there is a 
very kind and compassionate 

902
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,300
intention by someone somewhere 
in onboarding to accommodate our

903
00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:47,500
co-workers who use non-obvious 
pronouns, but making them feel 

904
00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:49,600
comfortable Durable enough to 
announce their pronouns. 

905
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,000
Indeed, an intimidating thing to
do in front the crap. 

906
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,200
What a mess. 
The logic seems to be that if 

907
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,900
everyone else is announcing 
their pronouns, and that is the 

908
00:45:59,900 --> 00:46:01,400
logic. 
I know where you're going with 

909
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,500
this dude. 
And that is exactly the logic. 

910
00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:07,100
Yeah, we all see what will logic
becomes a key word here as 

911
00:46:07,100 --> 00:46:09,100
you'll soon. 
Find out the logic seems to be 

912
00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:10,500
that. 
If everyone else is announcing 

913
00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:12,900
their pronouns, then they are 
making it easier and more 

914
00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:15,200
comfortable for the trans. 
Last gender-fluid employee to 

915
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,400
announce their own, that is 
truly kind. 

916
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,800
And I We love that intention. 
Yeah, but in the law, but here's

917
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,600
the but right, so far, so good. 
But in the long run, this 

918
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,500
approach does more harm than 
good. 

919
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:33,000
There are there are three 
reasons for this first, there is

920
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,100
a tiny there's a very tiny 
number of peeps at MailChimp. 

921
00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:39,700
Who would consider themselves 
transgender forcing either with 

922
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:43,600
orders or through guilt, 
approximately 1390, other peeps,

923
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,100
to adopt the new communication 
Paradigm that Humanity has never

924
00:46:47,100 --> 00:46:49,900
had to use. 
In our 300,000, Your Existence 

925
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,100
and in our hundred and fifty 
thousand years of spoken 

926
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:53,700
language. 
I don't know where those numbers

927
00:46:53,700 --> 00:46:56,600
and we would definitely not want
any peeps who've not yet 

928
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,200
publicly identified as such to 
feel comfortable doing. 

929
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,700
So we want to keep that number, 
really small here MailChimp. 

930
00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:05,600
We don't want any more people 
feel uncomfortable talking about

931
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,800
their gender because it goes 
against three hundred thousand 

932
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,600
years of tradition. 
In order to make things 

933
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,400
additions that were bad that we 
get rid of, I'm gonna throw 

934
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,200
slavery out there as one, but 
continue. 

935
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:16,800
Yeah. 
They never, you know, in ancient

936
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,300
Sumeria, they Announce their 
pronouns and I think we should 

937
00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:23,300
honor it in order to make things
slightly more comfortable. 

938
00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:26,400
For an extremely small group of 
peeps is completely illogical 

939
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:27,600
group. 
They were trying to keep a small

940
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,700
possible. 
Yeah, that's Rising say like 

941
00:47:29,700 --> 00:47:31,600
very small transgendered people 
to. 

942
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,000
They're all just little tiny 
little tiny, you know. 

943
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,300
Anyways, what's the harm? 
Well, why did with the harm? 

944
00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:41,300
Yes, you may be asking yourself,
you know, 300 words into this 

945
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:44,300
email, what is the harm or what 
is the purpose of this email? 

946
00:47:44,900 --> 00:47:47,600
You will now find out. 
Well, I believe that whenever 

947
00:47:47,700 --> 00:47:49,900
One is forced to comply with 
something that they know is 

948
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:52,600
illogical. 
No matter how kind the intention

949
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,400
they will eventually believe 
anything and do anything even if

950
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,900
it's vicious. 
We're undermining logic and 

951
00:47:58,900 --> 00:48:01,700
reason which undermines 
independent thinking Which 

952
00:48:01,700 --> 00:48:05,000
history has shown always leads 
to disastrous consequences 

953
00:48:05,500 --> 00:48:07,300
forcing, majority of peeps to 
behave. 

954
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:09,200
A certain way is the opposite of
inclusion. 

955
00:48:10,100 --> 00:48:12,200
So basically at this point he 
decides to go like slippery 

956
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,100
slope with the whole argument 
and say like if we start 

957
00:48:15,100 --> 00:48:17,600
announcing people's pronouns in 
meetings, when it's only a small

958
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,800
number Of people, we are 
bringing about the ruination of 

959
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,800
civilization. 
Wow, because never in history, 

960
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,500
even recent history. 
Have we asked the majority of 

961
00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:33,200
people who do not get agree with
unchanging social Norm to 

962
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,400
comply? 
We've never done. 

963
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:42,700
Yeah, I just don't know how to 
write like interracial marriage.

964
00:48:42,700 --> 00:48:45,200
We've never, we've never tried 
to pave the way for those 

965
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:50,100
things, socially through things 
like Language and legislation. 

966
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,200
One of my reactions to this, 
which is very like somewhere in 

967
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,700
this sort of management space. 
It just feels like if he has an 

968
00:48:58,700 --> 00:49:02,500
issue with this and the best 
lever he has is to reach out to 

969
00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:06,800
the whole company instead of 
trying to get his subordinates 

970
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,800
or whatever in line and saying, 
this is how we want to handle 

971
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,400
onboarding. 
It's sort of a miss, it shows 

972
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,800
like a lack of a handle over the
company and sort of like, hey, 

973
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,600
wouldn't he want? 
Does speak to other people 

974
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,900
before. 
He sent this email to see if ya 

975
00:49:21,900 --> 00:49:24,600
ain't nothing. 
Get your deputies to agree with 

976
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,000
you or yeah. 
Yeah. 

977
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,300
Well, he seems to be pinpointing
it on some process and 

978
00:49:28,300 --> 00:49:30,900
onboarding, which is like an HR 
function. 

979
00:49:31,100 --> 00:49:33,300
And yes, it would seem like if 
you have to have this 

980
00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:36,300
conversation because it is just 
fucking killing you, all the 

981
00:49:36,300 --> 00:49:39,600
illogic that's going on because 
it's only tiny transgendered, 

982
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:41,200
people that should be announcing
their pronouns. 

983
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,100
You could handle this in a 
smaller group that every single 

984
00:49:44,100 --> 00:49:48,800
employee at the company, I am 
personally, very skeptical that 

985
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,500
this pronouns announcing thing 
is going to stick in our 

986
00:49:52,500 --> 00:49:56,100
culture. 
I am not like going to be one of

987
00:49:56,100 --> 00:50:00,100
these people like protesting it,
but I just don't, I feel like 

988
00:50:00,100 --> 00:50:04,400
already the discussion, like, on
my Tick, Tock feeds among like 

989
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,600
progressives is like, is it good
to be centering gender? 

990
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,800
So much in like our introductory
conversations and Katie to your 

991
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,000
point. 
They like, sure, maybe you're 

992
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,200
making it easier for people to 
come out because Ask you, but 

993
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:22,800
you're also pressuring people to
make a gender statement, like 

994
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,500
one of the first things they say
to everyone. 

995
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,800
So, I just think even in the 
world of like just Progressive 

996
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:34,000
argumentation, I am not sold on 
the fact that these gender 

997
00:50:34,100 --> 00:50:37,800
intros are going to stick and I 
do think it's reflective of 

998
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:43,200
extremely heavy handed HR like 
progressivism, which is the 

999
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,200
worst form of progressive 
culture, like LinkedIn, 

1000
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,200
basically forcing everyone. 
One to put their gender and 

1001
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,600
their LinkedIn is not an 
eye-opening thing. 

1002
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,800
It is exactly the sort of like 
statist force, morality of the 

1003
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,700
left that no one likes and will 
not win people over. 

1004
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,600
So while I agree that these 
people protest way too loudly 

1005
00:51:02,900 --> 00:51:06,900
about like gender shit and like 
who cares about having to see 

1006
00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:11,000
her pronouns but I do think the 
instincts of it are like I'm not

1007
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:13,000
sure it's a winning issue for 
the left. 

1008
00:51:13,100 --> 00:51:16,100
I mean I don't think that it 
will stay around forever but not

1009
00:51:16,100 --> 00:51:18,500
for the reason you've said I 
mean, Like I think that it's 

1010
00:51:18,500 --> 00:51:22,800
something that's happening now, 
in order to pave the way for a 

1011
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,600
group of people who do not feel 
comfortable to feel comfortable 

1012
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,000
and that once they feel more 
comfortable and we don't need to

1013
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,200
have this happen. 
It won't happen. 

1014
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,700
Once people are trained to just 
like not washing machine. 

1015
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,900
Just like we've all been 
trained, not to assume that 

1016
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:40,700
somebody is married to a woman 
just because I'm a man. 

1017
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,700
So, when I meet a man, I don't 
say oh, how's your wife? 

1018
00:51:43,700 --> 00:51:46,800
If I see a ring because I don't 
assume that he's married to a 

1019
00:51:46,808 --> 00:51:49,200
woman. 
It took a really long time to 

1020
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:50,900
get there but now we're all 
trained. 

1021
00:51:50,900 --> 00:51:54,000
And so some of the linguistic 
things that it took to get 

1022
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,700
there, have also faded away and 
I will say, you know, as 

1023
00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:02,100
somebody who's friends with now,
multiple parents of children, 

1024
00:52:02,100 --> 00:52:05,400
who do not identify with the sex
that they were born with. 

1025
00:52:05,900 --> 00:52:09,100
It is really, really painful. 
I mean, like this is not, this 

1026
00:52:09,100 --> 00:52:12,500
is it's really difficult. 
And so I think that you're right

1027
00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:15,300
that we won't always have to 
send her gender in this way. 

1028
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,500
But that there's a reason why 
it's happening. 

1029
00:52:17,700 --> 00:52:20,900
You're saying the Miss gendering
is painful or the whole extra 

1030
00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:23,100
thing. 
The whole topic, I think that 

1031
00:52:23,100 --> 00:52:26,100
there's a lot of the topic is 
inheriting that there's a lot of

1032
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:29,600
pain to go around and it goes 
beyond just simply misgendering 

1033
00:52:29,900 --> 00:52:35,700
and so it's not only to make 
people who are having questions,

1034
00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:37,900
other gender or gender 
non-conforming feel comfortable.

1035
00:52:37,900 --> 00:52:40,600
It's also it make their families
feel comfortable and makes their

1036
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,800
parents feel like malt. 
My kid is entering a world, you 

1037
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,000
know? 
I mean, I think that one of the 

1038
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,300
things that they fear is that 
their children, I'll be beaten 

1039
00:52:48,300 --> 00:52:52,500
up or harmed I mean I think any 
so any acknowledgement that kind

1040
00:52:52,500 --> 00:52:56,100
of seems even if it's your point
it doesn't work right? 

1041
00:52:56,100 --> 00:52:59,200
Anything that creates some 
feeling of like the world. 

1042
00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:03,200
I mean it's always crazy volume 
because conservatives are like 

1043
00:53:03,300 --> 00:53:07,600
you want to be performative Lee 
kind to everybody like what's 

1044
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:12,100
wrong with you. 
Yeah it is a thing. 

1045
00:53:13,900 --> 00:53:19,500
It's like God. 
Like, just like I was going to 

1046
00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:22,600
say just like, I think it's good
that we don't assume that every 

1047
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,500
woman who walks in wearing a 
wedding ring is married to a man

1048
00:53:25,900 --> 00:53:28,300
and that it's totally and that 
we had to be kind of 

1049
00:53:28,300 --> 00:53:32,000
performative. 
Lee kind to get Society to that 

1050
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:33,500
place. 
We did it's clearly like an 

1051
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:36,200
awkward part in the like you 
know movement towards being a 

1052
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,400
more inclusive and Kinder 
gentler world but actually a lot

1053
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,700
of the topics that you guys are 
bringing up come up in the next 

1054
00:53:40,700 --> 00:53:43,200
couple paragraphs. 
And I really want to bring it 

1055
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,100
up. 
Oh, there's like 20 more. 

1056
00:53:45,100 --> 00:53:46,600
I was the end. 
Oh my God. 

1057
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,600
Oh my God, no. 
No, no, no, right. 

1058
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,500
Have one point the more points 
you have the more people can be 

1059
00:53:51,500 --> 00:53:52,500
mad about. 
Right. 

1060
00:53:52,500 --> 00:53:54,400
Okay. 
So that was that was a slippery.

1061
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,000
Slope argument. 
That what we're doing is we're 

1062
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,500
descending into world of a logic
and like soon, we'll have like 

1063
00:53:58,500 --> 00:54:01,000
fucking ants wearing hats 
because it doesn't make sense, 

1064
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:02,900
you know, for people to announce
their gender pronouns. 

1065
00:54:02,900 --> 00:54:05,500
If it's very obvious, what their
gender is, okay? 

1066
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,700
Second and by direct one-on-one 
conversations with a small 

1067
00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:11,500
subset of that, small population
of transgender employees. 

1068
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,800
Let me emphasize again. 
These are very, very small. 

1069
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,000
People. 
I have found that they don't 

1070
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,100
even need I want all this 
accommodation. 

1071
00:54:19,100 --> 00:54:20,700
All right. 
This is this is interesting, 

1072
00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:24,300
they don't and I'm sure I'm 
assuming if these people exist 

1073
00:54:24,300 --> 00:54:25,700
and he's not making this whole 
thing up. 

1074
00:54:25,700 --> 00:54:29,300
This is interesting, there is an
employee who started as a woman 

1075
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:32,300
but the transition into a man 
during transition, he politely 

1076
00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:34,900
came to me and other leaders. 
And respectfully asked us all to

1077
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:37,800
honor their transition by using 
new pronouns, it was our 

1078
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,200
pleasure to honor that request. 
He now uses he/him pronouns has 

1079
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,700
used, the men's restrooms has 
never wanted a gender neutral 

1080
00:54:43,700 --> 00:54:46,600
restroom, and additionally has 
worked damn hard to earn a new 

1081
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,700
career. 
His New place in life and most 

1082
00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:51,400
important, I'm sure has achieved
peace in his mind. 

1083
00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:54,800
Just providing a place where 
they could learn a living and do

1084
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,200
good hard, meaningful work, 
helped him find inner peace. 

1085
00:54:57,700 --> 00:55:00,200
And in fact, it's happening at 
MailChimp is a little weird side

1086
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:04,300
point, but every company takes 
this section, I'm not disturbed 

1087
00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:07,100
by, I'm no on the contrary, I 
think this is his most, this is 

1088
00:55:07,100 --> 00:55:10,200
a most, like, accommodating and 
like well-intentioned part. 

1089
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:11,800
Well, it's all supposed to be 
well, intentioned, but the one 

1090
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:13,500
that like actually makes the 
most sense, right? 

1091
00:55:13,500 --> 00:55:15,600
Because it's based on real 
people, not like your, I think 

1092
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:17,500
that's what's frustrating about 
some of these culture. 

1093
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,800
We're issues is like, well, when
faced with a real moral decision

1094
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,300
around a specific person, I feel
like I acted morally. 

1095
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:27,800
And yet I get yelled at, by the 
HR department, like certainly I 

1096
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,200
think a lot of us are 
sympathetic to that kind of 

1097
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,200
right point of view, right? 
So, I don't want to read through

1098
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:33,500
this whole paragraph, but you 
get the point. 

1099
00:55:33,500 --> 00:55:36,400
Basically, the CEO is saying, 
I've talked to a few transgender

1100
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,100
employees that we have here and 
they've all xu4 specifically 

1101
00:55:39,100 --> 00:55:42,100
requested that we don't do this 
because it's uncomfortable for 

1102
00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:44,800
them and I want to honor that. 
So it's like, okay, okay, 

1103
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,500
interest well good good, there's
a different way to do. 

1104
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,000
This email, I'm seeing it right 
now, but continue. 

1105
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:51,600
Yeah, okay, so here's where 
things. 

1106
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:54,900
Get very interesting to me. 
Third, this used to be about 

1107
00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:57,100
fostering, a creative 
productive, work environment 

1108
00:55:57,100 --> 00:56:01,000
with that intention in mind Dan.
And I on Diana's, have always 

1109
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:05,000
wanted MailChimp to be an 
inclusive meritocracy a place 

1110
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,700
where no matter your lifestyle 
gender race, nationality, or 

1111
00:56:07,700 --> 00:56:10,000
economic background, you could 
be an independent thinker and 

1112
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,100
speak up. 
Not only would you in feel 

1113
00:56:12,100 --> 00:56:15,200
emboldened to speak up, your 
fellow peeps would listen and 

1114
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,400
take your customer Centric. 
Advice it was. 

1115
00:56:17,700 --> 00:56:21,200
The name. 
Yeah it was all in the name of 

1116
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,600
work but now everything is 
incredibly politicized. 

1117
00:56:24,700 --> 00:56:28,600
That's probably true lesson. 
I long for the days when I could

1118
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:30,600
have a workplace, it's not 
completely. 

1119
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,600
Yes, I got that. 
This is the part where like, you

1120
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,000
know, his argument is verging. 
It's uncomfortable territories. 

1121
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,500
But I actually probably agree 
with right? 

1122
00:56:38,500 --> 00:56:41,100
I am finding that peeps. 
No longer feel motivated by 

1123
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:43,300
meaningful work. 
They are motivated to make 

1124
00:56:43,300 --> 00:56:45,600
political statements that is 
definitely true. 

1125
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,400
Yes. 
And now I'm in my arms. 

1126
00:56:47,500 --> 00:56:50,300
I'm sympathetic with a lot of 
what this guy's saying, so I get

1127
00:56:50,300 --> 00:56:53,200
to the really difficult part. 
But yeah, because this is like 

1128
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,100
every but that's always a 
minority. 

1129
00:56:55,100 --> 00:56:58,000
I mean, it's a because vocal 
minority who feels motivated by 

1130
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,000
like protest. 
The most people do just want to 

1131
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,600
clock in and clock out, do your 
fucking job, right? 

1132
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,500
Like, even if meritocracy is a 
fucking farce, like it's a 

1133
00:57:06,500 --> 00:57:10,400
necessary fake belief of 
capitalism like, I'm sorry. 

1134
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:12,400
Okay. 
Let me finish up this paragraph 

1135
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,000
because that I want to unpack 
them or they're using company 

1136
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,300
time and Company resources to 
win a game. 

1137
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,800
Their opponents in that game, 
that is Raging in their minds 

1138
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,000
and on social media 
understandably. 

1139
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,200
So our society is becoming 
increasingly divided and it 

1140
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,100
feels truly like our social 
fabric is being torn apart at 

1141
00:57:29,100 --> 00:57:33,600
the seams by radical Politics. 
On both sides coercing, peeps 

1142
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,800
into proclaiming their pronouns 
is not about creating an 

1143
00:57:35,808 --> 00:57:38,800
inclusive creative productive 
work environment, it's about 

1144
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,600
becoming a political statement. 
The only thing I would have to 

1145
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,000
say to that, by the way is like 
it's a very brief political 

1146
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,200
statement. 
You know. 

1147
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,200
Like if you really are all about
political statements just do 

1148
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,000
like More land acknowledgements 
and shit. 

1149
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,900
Like those things take a long 
time you know, you're spending a

1150
00:57:51,908 --> 00:57:53,400
lot more time on that one than 
just saying. 

1151
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:55,800
Like my name is Tom. 
He him but but whatever. 

1152
00:57:56,300 --> 00:57:59,200
As righteous as some peeps might
think that that is it should all

1153
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,500
keep singing really does make me
really? 

1154
00:58:01,700 --> 00:58:05,100
Really makes it undermines 
everything hit him. 

1155
00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:07,400
Yeah, yeah. 
There's really no, there's no 

1156
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,300
coming back from that 
personally, but hard as 

1157
00:58:10,300 --> 00:58:12,600
righteous as some people might 
think that this is, they should 

1158
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,700
also consider that there are 
others in this world. 

1159
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,400
And on the opposite end of the 
political Spectrum, who feel 

1160
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,600
Righteous about their beliefs 
understanding and respecting 

1161
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:22,800
that fundamental concept at 
grown adults can have different 

1162
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,400
views as a part of being 
American and part of being a 

1163
00:58:25,408 --> 00:58:29,300
mature, adult peeps of all the 
different political leanings are

1164
00:58:29,300 --> 00:58:31,900
free to vote the way that they 
want to and see our country 

1165
00:58:31,900 --> 00:58:35,900
governed is he basically trying 
to say that saying, pronouns, is

1166
00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:40,400
triggering conservatives and the
company and making them feel 

1167
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,000
political whenever this comes 
up, right, right. 

1168
00:58:43,100 --> 00:58:44,000
I don't even need to read any 
more. 

1169
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,100
You guys get the point of what 
he's saying here in this 

1170
00:58:46,100 --> 00:58:49,000
paragraph and like there The 
reason that I liked this, this 

1171
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,300
part of it is because this gets 
to two things that we talked 

1172
00:58:51,300 --> 00:58:56,200
about a ton on the show, which 
is that trans issues, which were

1173
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:57,300
always talking. 
Yeah. 

1174
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,300
Environment the fact that I, you
know, and you probably see this 

1175
00:59:20,300 --> 00:59:22,600
board, the then we'll certainly 
more than Eric does a little 

1176
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:24,800
more than I do Katie but like 
yeah, thanks a lot with a 

1177
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:29,100
sizing, his work environment. 
It's just an employee of watch 

1178
00:59:29,100 --> 00:59:30,900
looking. 
Yeah, I haven't play now. 

1179
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:32,600
We're going to start sending 
these emails out. 

1180
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,600
Eric. 
Yeah, it's all your shopping 

1181
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,500
with us before you hit. 
Send dear nukes. 

1182
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:42,200
You know, is that what you call 
your employees who are now we 

1183
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:43,100
do? 
Yeah. 

1184
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,600
So yeah, I know, it's this idea 
that like workplace is Is 

1185
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:51,100
becoming this Battleground for 
some employees to. 

1186
00:59:51,100 --> 00:59:53,900
Yeah, I agree with the CEO here.
Like I do think there are very 

1187
00:59:53,900 --> 00:59:56,300
vocal. 
I'm sure minorities but people 

1188
00:59:56,300 --> 01:00:01,100
that are trying to you know, and
I think minority not because I 

1189
01:00:01,100 --> 01:00:05,300
think these issues are important
but simply because even if you 

1190
01:00:05,300 --> 01:00:09,700
look at like big workplace, I 
think the Washington Post did a 

1191
01:00:09,707 --> 01:00:12,400
great story on this like the 
Starbucks employees moving to 

1192
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:14,900
unionize. 
It is a real thing and it's 

1193
01:00:14,900 --> 01:00:19,600
really important and I I think 
that this is a real movement 

1194
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:24,200
that has legs and it's not just 
something made up at the same 

1195
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:25,200
time. 
It's clear. 

1196
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,200
Even from that story, that many,
many people are just clocking in

1197
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,700
because they need money and 
they're like, really not 

1198
01:00:31,700 --> 01:00:34,600
engaging, you know, there's like
maybe I'll wake up one day and 

1199
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:38,400
be a unit employee mean Army. 
Final agonies class presidents 

1200
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,100
trying to push right, right. 
But there's the line between the

1201
01:00:41,100 --> 01:00:43,400
Trader Joe's in the Starbucks 
employees and what's going on. 

1202
01:00:43,408 --> 01:00:45,800
The most of these companies were
there all white collar workers. 

1203
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:49,700
And, you know, the ones that are
very vocal are trying to, I 

1204
01:00:49,700 --> 01:00:52,500
don't know, realized they're 
policia on college campuses to 

1205
01:00:52,500 --> 01:00:56,200
where the students are trying to
unionize the employees. 

1206
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:58,900
But it's like, these students 
are leaving after four years and

1207
01:00:58,900 --> 01:01:02,700
the people who are working in 
security or her working in 

1208
01:01:02,700 --> 01:01:05,100
dining services. 
They are not leaving after four 

1209
01:01:05,100 --> 01:01:06,700
years. 
So you have it's not a 

1210
01:01:06,700 --> 01:01:09,800
professional class, but it's a 
group of students who feel very 

1211
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:12,700
passionate. 
And I understand why I'm not 

1212
01:01:12,700 --> 01:01:14,300
saying they're wrong. 
I'm just saying that the 

1213
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,600
incentives are very different 
for these two groups of people 

1214
01:01:16,900 --> 01:01:20,000
and people will A and the people
who will go, right, but it is 

1215
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,300
very distracting inside these 
companies. 

1216
01:01:22,300 --> 01:01:25,500
I mean, every Google now and 
that company is like, borderline

1217
01:01:25,500 --> 01:01:29,000
paralyzed, like, certain 
departments that are because of 

1218
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:32,500
the activism and outspokenness 
by certain people at the 

1219
01:01:32,500 --> 01:01:34,100
company. 
And I'm not saying it's a good 

1220
01:01:34,100 --> 01:01:36,400
or bad thing. 
I'm saying, it's a reality and 

1221
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,400
it's also just the result of 
years. 

1222
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,400
And years of all of these 
companies, telling their 

1223
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:43,600
employees that your personal 
beliefs should be wrapped up in 

1224
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:47,000
the mission of this company. 
And that what you stand for is 

1225
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:48,200
what you are. 
Working on. 

1226
01:01:48,300 --> 01:01:50,000
And this was always going to 
happen. 

1227
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,200
In my opinion, there's always 
gonna be a point where people 

1228
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:54,900
got disillusioned by the mission
and felt way my personal 

1229
01:01:54,900 --> 01:01:56,400
beliefs. 
If the only place where I can 

1230
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:59,000
express, my personal beliefs is 
at the company that I work, then

1231
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,100
I used to spend all of my time 
making sure that everyone knows 

1232
01:02:02,100 --> 01:02:05,500
how I feel because otherwise it 
doesn't make any sense to me and

1233
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:10,100
sort of like Elite white-collar 
left has become very content 

1234
01:02:10,100 --> 01:02:14,500
with like statements of 
solidarity as some like major 

1235
01:02:14,500 --> 01:02:17,300
like political Victory instead 
of staying. 

1236
01:02:17,500 --> 01:02:21,400
Oak is done actually like I 
don't know, material conditions,

1237
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,300
or right, you know, actual 
political achievements. 

1238
01:02:24,300 --> 01:02:28,200
They're like, yeah, I know you 
don't but get on them. 

1239
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,100
No, I'm like if you guys want to
be activists in your company's, 

1240
01:02:31,100 --> 01:02:33,600
you should be demanding your 
companies to pay their fucking 

1241
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,900
full Freight and corporate 
taxes, but that's just oh yeah. 

1242
01:02:36,900 --> 01:02:39,200
You know, my mom, that's my 
favorite thing. 

1243
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:41,700
I think anyone has ever said, in
this podcast, when you're like 

1244
01:02:41,900 --> 01:02:45,700
apple, not enough taxes. 
The biggest political issue of 

1245
01:02:45,700 --> 01:02:58,700
our time. 
Is for the government to like do

1246
01:02:58,700 --> 01:03:03,000
cool functions, like whatever 
you're right? 

1247
01:03:03,100 --> 01:03:05,400
Because all the Apple employees 
that, you know, spent months and

1248
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,800
months, complaining about, you 
know, whatever culture issues, 

1249
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:09,800
they had of the company. 
I don't think a single one was 

1250
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:11,900
like, why are we incorporated 
and Ireland? 

1251
01:03:11,900 --> 01:03:12,900
Right. 
Right. 

1252
01:03:13,700 --> 01:03:16,000
And why can't we enforce voting 
rights? 

1253
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,400
Like the ones we have on the 
Looks like why does it take so 

1254
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:20,700
long? 
Why is her Criminal Justice 

1255
01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:23,000
System ground to a halt? 
Like, why are there not enough 

1256
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,400
people to investigate? 
White-collar crime, why? 

1257
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,000
Yeah, yeah. 
And so, like, you know, the 

1258
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,200
whole discussion about gender 
pronouns on both sides, I mean, 

1259
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,600
look, I yeah, you really came 
into this Tom. 

1260
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:34,100
Like, we were just going to 
eviscerate this email. 

1261
01:03:34,100 --> 01:03:39,100
I actually don't think this 
podcast is like, so happy to 

1262
01:03:39,100 --> 01:03:41,400
eviscerate on the grounds of, 
like, what a dumb fucking thing 

1263
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:44,300
to write, like he should have 
actually, he'd said, he 

1264
01:03:44,300 --> 01:03:47,300
interviewed people who are 
Transit his company got another 

1265
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:49,800
Our thoughts and written an 
email that started. 

1266
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:53,100
I've had really important 
conversations with members of 

1267
01:03:53,100 --> 01:03:56,500
our community and no peeps 
members our community. 

1268
01:03:56,700 --> 01:04:01,400
And I want to know whether or 
not there is ways to figure out.

1269
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:05,000
If there's a way to figure out, 
you know, why we are centering 

1270
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,500
gender with the use of pronouns.
There is some discomfort coming 

1271
01:04:08,500 --> 01:04:11,300
from the very group of people 
were hoping to make comfortable 

1272
01:04:11,500 --> 01:04:13,900
and so what does that mean? 
Can we discuss it as a community

1273
01:04:14,100 --> 01:04:17,000
and hope with a different plan? 
And that's also a much shorter 

1274
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:18,800
email. 
That email can be a communist 

1275
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:22,700
words for paragraphs, for short 
paragraph, and the takeaway 

1276
01:04:22,700 --> 01:04:25,800
should have been there. 
Something deeply wrong with the 

1277
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:31,400
human resources, professional. 
We need to, we need to get rid 

1278
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,800
of these in the family hired for
legal ability to be sure. 

1279
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,700
Because because because here's 
the thing, Katie, if that was 

1280
01:04:37,700 --> 01:04:40,600
actually the problem here, he 
would have sent that email and 

1281
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,000
it would have gotten 
accomplished something that 

1282
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:45,000
would have actually benefited. 
The very, very small, we have to

1283
01:04:45,008 --> 01:04:49,100
include that number of trans 
people at If it's like the Lord 

1284
01:04:49,100 --> 01:04:51,400
and you're trying to keep it 
small buddy, right? 

1285
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:53,800
I got a great job that's clearly
not. 

1286
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:57,000
What's going on here. 
He was triggered by the use of 

1287
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:58,600
these. 
The private use of these words, 

1288
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,900
he's like using the small number
of trans people at MailChimp to 

1289
01:05:01,900 --> 01:05:04,600
hide behind because he's pissed 
about something which is also 

1290
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:10,200
like oh God I mean just it's so 
fucked up but like why didn't he

1291
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:11,900
call us to write this email for 
him? 

1292
01:05:11,900 --> 01:05:14,300
Why didn't he give us a ring? 
We could have done this. 

1293
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:19,100
Yeah I mean it goes into the 
sort of Who is politicizing what

1294
01:05:19,100 --> 01:05:20,700
between the left and right, 
right? 

1295
01:05:20,700 --> 01:05:23,400
Like the left is like, I don't 
know, we're just seeing people's

1296
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:26,800
pronouns and then we like have a
fucking meeting and the right 

1297
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:30,200
obviously, reacts very 
negatively and then it's sort of

1298
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:34,700
hard to say which move is the 
politicization, right? 

1299
01:05:34,700 --> 01:05:36,900
Like if his claim is that he's 
not being political, right? 

1300
01:05:36,900 --> 01:05:39,300
He's trying to remove politics 
from the wolf, but he's 

1301
01:05:39,300 --> 01:05:43,900
basically saying that When 
people have to say pronouns and 

1302
01:05:43,900 --> 01:05:46,900
people on the right have to do 
it there, they're feeling like 

1303
01:05:46,900 --> 01:05:51,100
it's a political act and they're
basically being forced to sort 

1304
01:05:51,100 --> 01:05:54,700
of, you know, go against their 
principles by doing something 

1305
01:05:54,700 --> 01:05:56,400
that they yeah, bristle. 
At. 

1306
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:58,300
And we've seen different 
versions of this playing out in 

1307
01:05:58,300 --> 01:06:01,800
Tech with like, the CEO of 
Kraken and like his super based 

1308
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,400
work culture where he wanted 
people to be expressing. 

1309
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:06,700
Only dark web ideas. 
And if you don't like it, you 

1310
01:06:06,700 --> 01:06:08,900
can leave. 
And you know, the Brian 

1311
01:06:08,900 --> 01:06:11,000
Armstrong at coinbase stuff. 
I mean, it always very tight. 

1312
01:06:11,100 --> 01:06:13,000
Yup. 
It was all very tied up in 

1313
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:15,400
crypto, but like, it is a very 
real thing that's happening at 

1314
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:19,400
these tech companies and the 
decision by CEOs to claim we can

1315
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:22,400
be non-political by sending out 
emails like this is it 

1316
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:24,000
completely wrong headed, way of 
doing it. 

1317
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:27,300
Of course it's going to backfire
and the MailChimp guy he stepped

1318
01:06:27,300 --> 01:06:28,300
down. 
Yeah, he's gone. 

1319
01:06:28,300 --> 01:06:29,600
He's gone. 
And we don't know if it was 

1320
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:33,200
because of this but like was it 
right after, you know, the story

1321
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:35,700
didn't, which I think was a bit 
of a shortcoming with the story.

1322
01:06:35,700 --> 01:06:38,400
It didn't really explain why but
that, you know, they had gotten 

1323
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:40,800
acquired by into it. 
I think he actually made quite a

1324
01:06:40,808 --> 01:06:42,900
bit of From that whole 
transaction. 

1325
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,400
He's to do this bullshit. 
He can have his own. 

1326
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,600
Like, he can have all his staff.
He can do whatever he wants. 

1327
01:06:49,700 --> 01:06:51,500
Never tell them their gender if 
you want some. 

1328
01:06:51,508 --> 01:06:52,300
Yeah. 
Hey Candace. 

1329
01:06:52,300 --> 01:06:55,000
Have no staff. 
He's like, I'm moving to a model

1330
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:58,200
where I had no staff. 
No people who messy. 

1331
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:03,200
No HR department's. 
I mean people stepping down and 

1332
01:07:03,207 --> 01:07:07,300
like overreacting to employee 
revolts is another part of the, 

1333
01:07:07,300 --> 01:07:09,400
I mean, I think that sort of 
calm down somewhat. 

1334
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,100
Like, I would be interested to 
know Now, if you was really 

1335
01:07:12,100 --> 01:07:14,000
ousted over the street, I 
wouldn't make sense. 

1336
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:19,400
I mean, the email was, I can't 
imagine why anyone should be 

1337
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:22,500
fired over this. 
Although does to Eric's earlier 

1338
01:07:22,500 --> 01:07:26,900
Point indicate that he's a bad 
manager and so I wouldn't be 

1339
01:07:26,900 --> 01:07:30,100
shocked if you scratch the 
surface beyond, the email will 

1340
01:07:30,100 --> 01:07:32,000
find stuff that right kind of 
weird. 

1341
01:07:32,100 --> 01:07:32,700
Right. 
Clearly don't. 

1342
01:07:32,700 --> 01:07:35,500
Let's go advice go to your 
Executives and say, are we 

1343
01:07:35,500 --> 01:07:37,700
aligned with this is like out of
control? 

1344
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:40,700
I'm sure most of them would be 
like, listen, we're trying to 

1345
01:07:40,700 --> 01:07:45,900
meet our Sales quota in. 
This is not like you driving 

1346
01:07:45,900 --> 01:07:48,800
decision, like, who cares? 
Like, we're going so fast 

1347
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:49,800
please. 
Right. 

1348
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:53,600
Exactly. 
But he's like, but he's trying 

1349
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:55,700
to say here, you know that, 
like, all of the pronoun 

1350
01:07:55,700 --> 01:07:58,500
discussion is distracting us 
from a real fulfilling work of 

1351
01:07:58,500 --> 01:08:01,900
running MailChimp and like, he's
just like, I got a way to fix 

1352
01:08:01,900 --> 01:08:03,300
it. 
We're not getting our numbers. 

1353
01:08:03,300 --> 01:08:05,800
You actually may be the bigger 
issue. 

1354
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:08,900
Is, you're only offering people 
MailChimp in the same way that, 

1355
01:08:08,900 --> 01:08:10,700
you know, like the fed, you 
know, the only thing they can do

1356
01:08:10,700 --> 01:08:12,300
to control. 
Roll inflation, is by raising 

1357
01:08:12,300 --> 01:08:14,000
interest rates. 
He's like the only thing it can 

1358
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:16,500
do to increase. 
Productivity is sending 2,000 

1359
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:19,700
were emails. 
Eviscerating, our pronoun policy

1360
01:08:20,100 --> 01:08:21,500
and he's like that's it for the 
only trick. 

1361
01:08:21,500 --> 01:08:26,200
I got my bad focus. 
Our company more than a divisive

1362
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:29,700
email from. 
I remember Habsburg seen 

1363
01:08:29,700 --> 01:08:32,700
companies really cook together, 
running around the shitty mess 

1364
01:08:32,700 --> 01:08:35,100
of your boss is evil. 
They would say something is 

1365
01:08:35,100 --> 01:08:38,100
saying, I would spend half the 
day being like what the fuck 

1366
01:08:38,100 --> 01:08:39,899
does this mean? 
And everybody would like just 

1367
01:08:39,899 --> 01:08:43,200
ignore it like who cares? 
Is like those emails of the most

1368
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:45,300
distressed. 
There's like, why am I worrying 

1369
01:08:45,300 --> 01:08:47,800
for overlords? 
That are so out of touch with 

1370
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,700
like the core product that we 
deliver? 

1371
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:53,100
I mean talk about like the use 
cases for AI. 

1372
01:08:53,100 --> 01:08:56,000
How could there not be like a 
super Advanced clippy on all 

1373
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:59,000
boss emails that says like, it 
seems like you're writing a very

1374
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:01,500
ill conceived. 
Email about what pronouns there 

1375
01:09:01,500 --> 01:09:05,100
were employees. 
Are you sure you want to send it

1376
01:09:05,100 --> 01:09:06,700
this exists? 
Did you not see this? 

1377
01:09:06,700 --> 01:09:09,399
I saw it on Twitter. 
Somebody ran this email through 

1378
01:09:09,700 --> 01:09:13,800
some like I don't know. 
I woke censorship app and it was

1379
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:18,399
gave this like a 0%. 
Like we're 14 just like a lot. 

1380
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:24,700
Like a common sense out of 
anything like this is it's a 

1381
01:09:24,707 --> 01:09:26,600
little weird that software 
exists to be. 

1382
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:30,899
Like this is what I'm saying is,
was that indeed the software, or

1383
01:09:30,899 --> 01:09:34,399
was it just like, I don't know, 
I was so we don't we don't know 

1384
01:09:34,407 --> 01:09:38,000
what this software was, but 
yeah, there's not much more to 

1385
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:42,399
say about this than like, you 
know, Ears up for everyone at 

1386
01:09:42,399 --> 01:09:44,700
MailChimp. 
One thing that I'm interested to

1387
01:09:44,707 --> 01:09:47,200
talk about that. 
I don't think we should get into

1388
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:49,300
this episode, but I do want to 
sort of just plant. 

1389
01:09:49,300 --> 01:09:52,700
The seed is getting to a point 
where our political debates we 

1390
01:09:52,700 --> 01:09:55,400
can, like, shrug our shoulders 
on some of the more we've 

1391
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:58,500
basically gotten into a 
political culture where we've 

1392
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:02,400
tried to like amplify the 
importance of every political 

1393
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,400
issue. 
And So then whenever there's 

1394
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:08,700
disagreement and feels like a 
real, I don't know, right? 

1395
01:10:08,900 --> 01:10:13,500
Severing point and There aren't 
these issues where it's like, 

1396
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,400
people just say to each other. 
Yeah, I disagree with you. 

1397
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:18,800
I don't care about this issue 
that much, you know, you would 

1398
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:22,700
be seen as like, obviously like 
a bigot or anti-trans to say, 

1399
01:10:22,700 --> 01:10:25,300
like, this is below my line like
Chemung. 

1400
01:10:25,300 --> 01:10:28,100
I mean term off basically saying
there's like a hierarchy of 

1401
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:31,900
political views he cares about 
and one was was low. 

1402
01:10:31,900 --> 01:10:34,800
I mean people went ballistic, 
you ultimately survived, but 

1403
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:38,100
there does have to be a true 
ranking of issues. 

1404
01:10:38,100 --> 01:10:39,800
You're willing to like put your 
whole life. 

1405
01:10:41,100 --> 01:10:44,100
My own and I think it can be 
different for everyone like you 

1406
01:10:44,100 --> 01:10:46,500
can get in trouble for not 
prioritizing. 

1407
01:10:46,500 --> 01:10:49,800
I mean, I think that I think 
what your mouth got in trouble 

1408
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:51,800
for was coming across as an 
excessive dick? 

1409
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:54,700
I mean, I think and I think I 
was criticism and I think that 

1410
01:10:54,700 --> 01:10:59,000
most people prioritize social 
issues that are swirling around 

1411
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,900
us based on what's important and
pertinent to their lives. 

1412
01:11:01,900 --> 01:11:04,800
I don't think that they may be 
like, staggering them and write 

1413
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:09,100
a blog post about it, like he 
might, but I think if you are, 

1414
01:11:09,300 --> 01:11:13,100
for example, I mean, The way I 
grew up, you know, growing up in

1415
01:11:13,100 --> 01:11:17,900
the 80s and 90s with not very 
much money in a dying 

1416
01:11:17,900 --> 01:11:20,200
blue-collar town. 
You know, there were a lot of 

1417
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:22,900
social issues happening at that 
time, but the ones that were 

1418
01:11:22,900 --> 01:11:25,600
most important for like, the 
people I knew were economic 

1419
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:28,600
issues. 
One like there was obviously a 

1420
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:31,500
lot happening with gay rights 
like it was the 80s and 90s. 

1421
01:11:31,500 --> 01:11:35,000
There were people being beaten 
to death and that was for some 

1422
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,700
people a lower priority issue 
because we didn't know anyone 

1423
01:11:37,700 --> 01:11:40,900
who was gay or for people who 
are closeted in my town. 

1424
01:11:41,100 --> 01:11:43,000
That was the highest priority 
issue. 

1425
01:11:43,300 --> 01:11:45,500
I think that's fine. 
That's totally fine. 

1426
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,800
And I don't think that we should
ever have to declare what our 

1427
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:51,600
high priority is. 
She was and why and defend that 

1428
01:11:51,900 --> 01:11:54,200
like that makes literally no 
sense to me. 

1429
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:58,100
Well there's also no way back to
this email that like for the CEO

1430
01:11:58,100 --> 01:12:00,800
in the people that were annoyed 
for whatever reason by having to

1431
01:12:00,808 --> 01:12:03,000
say their gender pronouns. 
That it was a high priority 

1432
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:05,900
issue for them. 
It's like you're using 

1433
01:12:05,900 --> 01:12:07,800
MailChimp. 
Your highest priority issue. 

1434
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,800
Dude, should be like, why do 
people use this product that? 

1435
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:14,100
Like has the most dumb-looking 
user interface ever. 

1436
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:16,500
Like I feel like I'm in 
kindergarten when I use it but 

1437
01:12:16,500 --> 01:12:20,800
like nobody really likes but you
know it's like maybe that's your

1438
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:23,400
high priority that you're 
getting your business and being 

1439
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:27,600
stolen by, you know, sub stack. 
I would just other and look, 

1440
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,100
maybe the CEO had no ability to 
answer those questions and so 

1441
01:12:30,100 --> 01:12:32,900
for him he felt like he will 
like the battle that I can. 

1442
01:12:32,900 --> 01:12:35,400
I be waged as for what about 
gender prove, that that would be

1443
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:37,800
a great. 
I would love the case to be the 

1444
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:41,300
guys like fuck. 
Like I have no vision for This 

1445
01:12:41,300 --> 01:12:44,300
product just naturally like 
this, right? 

1446
01:12:44,300 --> 01:12:46,700
It's like the Republicans 
basically decided like our 

1447
01:12:46,700 --> 01:12:49,600
vision is completely popular 
solution. 

1448
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:55,600
We fight about some other shit. 
Like that's that's so if that's 

1449
01:12:55,600 --> 01:13:00,300
the truth here, that is some 
like 11 degrees of Chess, I 

1450
01:13:00,300 --> 01:13:02,200
would love that that I would 
love to see. 

1451
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:06,800
Oh, this guy that was just like 
the board comes, never like all 

1452
01:13:06,808 --> 01:13:08,200
right. 
What's the 12 year? 

1453
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:10,900
Plan to tell people that it's 
like Welsh or worse? 

1454
01:13:11,700 --> 01:13:14,500
Basically all we have left are 
internal culture wars that we 

1455
01:13:14,500 --> 01:13:16,200
adjudicate / /. 
Yeah. 

1456
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:19,600
And you know, hopefully I can 
bring up some name recognition 

1457
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:22,700
because these emails will leak 
and you know people remember 

1458
01:13:22,700 --> 01:13:24,700
MailChimp because the last thing
I thought about was when they 

1459
01:13:24,700 --> 01:13:28,600
advertised on cereal and for 
those people who love parlor, 

1460
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:33,800
they will use MailChimp over the
based emailing platform and I 

1461
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:36,000
don't know you. 
I think you might be a writer, I

1462
01:13:36,008 --> 01:13:38,300
think there are some multiple 
layers at this guy strategy 

1463
01:13:38,300 --> 01:13:40,800
because aside from that it seems
thin broth. 

1464
01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:43,300
Anyway, we went there. 
All right, this was fun. 

1465
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:45,300
All right, fine. 
Thanks Gary. 

1466
01:13:45,300 --> 01:13:59,300
Thanks 
goodbye, goodbye. 

1467
01:13:59,300 --> 01:14:01,900
Goodbye, goodbye. 
Goodbye goodbye. 

1468
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:02,300
Goodbye.