1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,880 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,370 is for you. So many of the guests on this 11 00:00:44,380 --> 00:00:47,670 podcast have talked about how important it is to have strong 12 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,310 writing skills as a lawyer. It's true, written communication 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,190 is essential in this profession, but it can also be one of the 14 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,540 trickiest skills to master. If you find your writing feels a 15 00:00:58,550 --> 00:01:01,450 bit clunky, or you're getting a lot of edits on your work, or 16 00:01:01,460 --> 00:01:04,000 perhaps you're breaking into an English speaking jurisdiction 17 00:01:04,010 --> 00:01:07,320 for the first time, Grammatica International can help. 18 00:01:07,550 --> 00:01:10,380 I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator and educator 19 00:01:10,390 --> 00:01:13,610 behind Grammatica, and we help lawyers and law students to 20 00:01:13,620 --> 00:01:16,800 write more sharply, speak more clearly, and advance their 21 00:01:16,810 --> 00:01:19,740 careers with group training and one-on-one skills coaching 22 00:01:19,790 --> 00:01:21,800 designed just for legal professionals. 23 00:01:22,210 --> 00:01:24,900 I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are 24 00:01:24,910 --> 00:01:28,480 exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need a bit of 25 00:01:28,490 --> 00:01:31,140 guidance to stand out in a competitive legal market. 26 00:01:31,670 --> 00:01:34,020 And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five 27 00:01:34,030 --> 00:01:37,260 countries during my 17 years in law and education. 28 00:01:37,790 --> 00:01:39,920 Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills 29 00:01:39,930 --> 00:01:43,210 generally, to refresh your CV, or draft an application for a 30 00:01:43,220 --> 00:01:45,430 law program, Grammatica can help. 31 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:48,650 Visit gramatica.co to learn more. 32 00:01:50,630 --> 00:01:53,600 Today I have the opportunity to interview Sunny Kim. 33 00:01:53,650 --> 00:01:57,600 She has an incredible story and career and I'm so excited for 34 00:01:57,610 --> 00:02:00,830 you all to get to know her a little better and to start 35 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,120 today's episode. First of all, wanted to thank 36 00:02:03,130 --> 00:02:07,220 you for being willing to be here today, Sunny, and also wanted to 37 00:02:07,230 --> 00:02:11,039 ask you to start us off here by introducing yourself and telling 38 00:02:11,050 --> 00:02:13,430 you, our listeners a little bit about your background. 39 00:02:13,820 --> 00:02:16,040 It's great to be here. Thank you so much for inviting 40 00:02:16,050 --> 00:02:16,740 me. Yeah. 41 00:02:16,750 --> 00:02:18,680 So again, my name is Sunny Kim. Sunny. 42 00:02:18,690 --> 00:02:22,360 Like the weather. I have been in law for about 6 43 00:02:22,370 --> 00:02:24,740 years. I practiced in the beginning as 44 00:02:24,750 --> 00:02:28,260 a tax lawyer after graduating from Columbia Law School, and I 45 00:02:28,270 --> 00:02:30,860 worked at Davis Polk in the tax department. 46 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,070 And then I transitioned to Gunderson Murder, which does a 47 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,530 lot of startup and fund formation work. 48 00:02:36,540 --> 00:02:40,290 And then most recently, I was in house at a private equity firm 49 00:02:40,350 --> 00:02:42,290 out here in California, where I am now. 50 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:45,350 And I just had a really great boss. 51 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,730 I had really interesting work. And at the same time, I was 52 00:02:49,740 --> 00:02:54,070 like, OK, I'm so lucky with my current job in so many respects, 53 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,070 but something is missing. Like I want to feel super 54 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,370 excited to wake up every morning and I wasn't getting that. 55 00:03:01,380 --> 00:03:03,490 I was like, Oh my gosh, something's like something's 56 00:03:03,500 --> 00:03:05,310 wrong with me. I need to change something. 57 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:13,400 And so I to a really what it seems like a crazy thing and I 58 00:03:13,450 --> 00:03:16,650 put in my notice and I was really honest with my boss who 59 00:03:16,660 --> 00:03:18,400 was like amazing and very understanding. 60 00:03:18,410 --> 00:03:21,800 I said I just want to take a career break to figure out what 61 00:03:21,810 --> 00:03:25,420 I want to do and just take some time for myself. 62 00:03:25,430 --> 00:03:31,610 And so I quit my job and then I have always loved writing. 63 00:03:31,740 --> 00:03:35,170 It was one of the things that I really enjoyed about practicing 64 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,230 in tax law. There's a lot of new regulations 65 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,910 coming out all the time. So writing a memo for clients, 66 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,150 for example, or writing tax opinions, writing even for tax 67 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,510 controversy projects. Just writing always was my sort 68 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,370 of, yeah, my strong suit, but also something I enjoyed the 69 00:03:52,380 --> 00:03:54,430 most. So I was like, OK, I want to 70 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,190 maybe write. It's with something that I 71 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,880 gravitated towards. So I looked up like how to start 72 00:03:59,890 --> 00:04:03,170 writing online or something. And then I found a lot of 73 00:04:03,180 --> 00:04:06,190 articles like, hey, don't write on blogs because no one's going 74 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,730 to find it right on a social platform. 75 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,700 So I actually started writing on Twitter and I had zero Twitter 76 00:04:11,710 --> 00:04:13,820 audience and no one was reading my stuff. 77 00:04:13,830 --> 00:04:17,579 And at the time I at least had like 1000 people I knew on 78 00:04:17,589 --> 00:04:19,640 LinkedIn. And so I wrote my first post 79 00:04:19,649 --> 00:04:25,240 about putting my job and gaining a sense of control over my time 80 00:04:25,250 --> 00:04:29,640 and also a heightened sense of self worth because it was the 81 00:04:29,650 --> 00:04:32,280 first time I did something purely for myself. 82 00:04:32,350 --> 00:04:37,390 I feel like most of my life I kind of live to get external 83 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,390 validation and you know, this is the first time where I really 84 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,290 did something truly for myself. And so I wrote about that, my 85 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:48,750 first post ever and it got like 60,000 people to read it, which 86 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,390 I was like really shocked by. And so many people messaged me 87 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,150 saying that the post resonated with them. 88 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,890 And so I started just, I kept writing since then. 89 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,770 And once I started writing, I guess because it is a social 90 00:04:58,780 --> 00:05:01,710 platform, even though I had a really small audience, a lot of 91 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,490 people were reading my stuff and they were saying, you know, how 92 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:08,110 can I write like you or how can I write LinkedIn posts? 93 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,210 And so I actually started helping them for free. 94 00:05:10,260 --> 00:05:13,450 A lot of them were lawyers and one of my first clients who I 95 00:05:13,460 --> 00:05:16,350 love working with, I was like, let's just do this experiment. 96 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,200 I want to see what this can do for you. 97 00:05:18,210 --> 00:05:21,520 He just had left a really big law firm to start his own 98 00:05:21,530 --> 00:05:24,120 practice. And he was like, OK, he called 99 00:05:24,130 --> 00:05:27,460 me and he said, this is crazy. But like I used to have like 100 00:05:27,470 --> 00:05:30,520 1000 people read my post. It's like in the couple first 101 00:05:30,530 --> 00:05:33,260 hours since you helped me with this post, I have like 5000 102 00:05:33,270 --> 00:05:35,090 people reading it. And I was like, wow, that's 103 00:05:35,100 --> 00:05:36,910 really cool. And then so we kept going and 104 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,920 then and then you would call me again, me like, Hey, I keep on 105 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:43,080 calling me and wanting to work with me as a client because like 106 00:05:43,090 --> 00:05:45,280 they're seeing my posts. I was like, he's like, at this 107 00:05:45,290 --> 00:05:47,580 point, I think it makes sense to start paying you. 108 00:05:47,650 --> 00:05:52,480 And so that's where it started. I was, it built in, evolved into 109 00:05:52,490 --> 00:05:55,020 a business. And I have been doing that since 110 00:05:55,030 --> 00:05:59,200 I help lawyers brand build their brand and presence on LinkedIn 111 00:05:59,210 --> 00:06:01,650 to attract whatever opportunity it is. 112 00:06:01,790 --> 00:06:04,690 Sometimes it's clients, sometimes it's to land a 113 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:08,350 valuable job opportunity. And it's been really fantastic. 114 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,550 And I've just met so many lawyers who have really 115 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,130 benefited from putting themselves out there. 116 00:06:14,140 --> 00:06:17,590 They've gotten over that fear and done it, and they have been 117 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,750 really surprised by the opportunities that came their 118 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,730 way. So that is what I do now. 119 00:06:21,810 --> 00:06:24,130 That was a long introduction, but yeah, that's where I'm at 120 00:06:24,140 --> 00:06:25,290 now. That's amazing. 121 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:28,030 And I love that you did a complete one because now we can 122 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,510 have a clear idea of who you are, what you've done and what 123 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,800 you do these days. So it couldn't get any better 124 00:06:33,810 --> 00:06:35,950 than that. But I'm, I'm really curious, 125 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:37,900 right? You mentioned a few different 126 00:06:37,910 --> 00:06:39,870 things. You mentioned that you've you've 127 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,630 helped lawyers and you saw them having those results. 128 00:06:42,700 --> 00:06:45,780 And then I'm really curious about it as you continue helping 129 00:06:45,790 --> 00:06:49,220 other people, what are some of the challenges that you've seen 130 00:06:49,230 --> 00:06:52,840 that you've heard people saying or that even your face yourself 131 00:06:52,850 --> 00:06:55,760 in this sense of, you know, trying to stand out in 132 00:06:55,770 --> 00:06:58,860 competitive environments that you've been in quite a bit, you 133 00:06:58,870 --> 00:07:01,240 know, big law school or law firm setting. 134 00:07:01,310 --> 00:07:03,380 For sure. That's a really great question. 135 00:07:03,950 --> 00:07:07,520 Have had this challenge and I've heard it from other lawyers as 136 00:07:07,530 --> 00:07:10,280 well. It's like all of us are really 137 00:07:10,290 --> 00:07:13,040 great at what we do. And I think we have a lot of 138 00:07:13,050 --> 00:07:17,620 pride in our level of work and expertise that we continue to 139 00:07:17,630 --> 00:07:21,180 build upon. And I think the traditional sort 140 00:07:21,190 --> 00:07:25,100 of saying that we have heard as lawyers is put your head down to 141 00:07:25,110 --> 00:07:28,820 do really good work and your bosses, their clients, they 142 00:07:28,830 --> 00:07:30,800 will, they will see that and come back. 143 00:07:30,850 --> 00:07:33,260 And I believe that is true to some extent. 144 00:07:33,310 --> 00:07:38,180 But I what I did read in actually a recent study, there's 145 00:07:38,190 --> 00:07:39,910 a book called Activator Advantage. 146 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,180 I think it's a Harvard Law Review or business review press 147 00:07:43,190 --> 00:07:46,000 book. And this book interviewed like 148 00:07:46,050 --> 00:07:49,460 over 3000 being a mature, like 40% were lawyers. 149 00:07:49,510 --> 00:07:53,720 And that model of like put your head down and do good work that 150 00:07:54,340 --> 00:07:58,730 doesn't work as well that the efficiency of that is decreasing 151 00:07:58,740 --> 00:08:01,790 because more and more clients have more options when it comes 152 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:03,950 to choosing lawyers. There's a lot of boutique 153 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,230 practices and clients are becoming less loyal to sticking 154 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,770 to one lawyer that they work with for a long period of time. 155 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,170 And I found this to be true myself. 156 00:08:14,220 --> 00:08:17,830 And for other connections that I have for in-house counsel, like 157 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,290 they usually they have had a long term relationship with one 158 00:08:21,300 --> 00:08:25,390 firm, but you know, we don't feel bound to just work with one 159 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,380 firm anymore. There's a lot of firms that 160 00:08:27,390 --> 00:08:29,610 specialize in a particular type of work. 161 00:08:29,620 --> 00:08:33,730 And I think we are becoming more aware of that, especially 162 00:08:33,740 --> 00:08:36,070 because there's a lot of information out there now. 163 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,530 And what works is that people who were proactive about making 164 00:08:39,539 --> 00:08:42,510 it known to the world, this is my expertise, this is how I 165 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,710 hope, and this is how I can also use my expertise to help you 166 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,040 specifically solve your particular challenge or issue 167 00:08:50,050 --> 00:08:52,950 that you're going through. And The thing is, like, even if 168 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,890 you are really great at your job, because there are so many 169 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,170 other lawyers in your practice area, it is hard to stand out if 170 00:08:59,180 --> 00:09:01,510 you just put your head down and do good work and no one knows 171 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,280 about it. You know, clients, as I said, 172 00:09:04,290 --> 00:09:07,110 they have a lot of options. And I think a lot of 173 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,810 opportunities actually go to lawyers who are very proactive 174 00:09:10,820 --> 00:09:14,550 about providing value to clients before they're asked about 175 00:09:14,620 --> 00:09:17,690 sharing on platforms like LinkedIn, what it is that they 176 00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:22,110 do, how they add value, and just continuing to educate their 177 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,460 audience even before, like the clients even knew that this was 178 00:09:25,470 --> 00:09:27,210 a particular legal issue or something. 179 00:09:27,220 --> 00:09:29,390 Right? So yeah, I think the challenge 180 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,730 is definitely getting yourself known and trusted because just 181 00:09:33,740 --> 00:09:36,850 like any business, you know, lawyer lawyers especially, it's 182 00:09:36,860 --> 00:09:40,250 a people business and people want to work with lawyers that 183 00:09:40,260 --> 00:09:43,220 they like and trust. And in order to do that, you 184 00:09:43,230 --> 00:09:44,550 have to kind of put yourself out there. 185 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:47,670 And LinkedIn is a really great platform for that because we 186 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:50,610 like to go to networking events and there's value in that. 187 00:09:50,620 --> 00:09:54,660 It's just really hard to connect with people one-on-one through 188 00:09:54,670 --> 00:09:57,710 networking events. Time is finite and the number of 189 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,270 people that you can meet at these events is limited. 190 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,370 But when you put a really valuable piece of like LinkedIn 191 00:10:03,380 --> 00:10:06,470 post out there, educates your audience, kind of tells them a 192 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,090 little bit about you and shows that you not only educate them, 193 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:13,290 but also you're relatable, you can reach like thousands of 194 00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:15,490 people at once, even with a small network. 195 00:10:15,580 --> 00:10:18,520 And so that's like scale that you can't really replicate 196 00:10:18,530 --> 00:10:20,390 through coffee chats or networking events. 197 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,860 And so I have found that for those lawyers who are facing 198 00:10:23,870 --> 00:10:27,710 that challenge of really building a business or kind of 199 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,750 becoming a person where people approach them with job 200 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,770 opportunities, LinkedIn has been a really great way for them to 201 00:10:33,780 --> 00:10:36,430 put themselves out there in a way that's really natural and 202 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,090 also just reached a lot of people at once. 203 00:10:38,180 --> 00:10:40,090 That's amazing. That's so incredible. 204 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,810 And I love that, that the way you mentioned it, it's, it's so 205 00:10:43,820 --> 00:10:47,710 incredible that people who are still wanting to stay at their 206 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,990 job and once you stand out at the company that they currently 207 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,130 work at, they can send out through that. 208 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,950 And then on the other side of the spectrum, if you have your 209 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,770 own firm and you're a solo lawyer and you're trying to, you 210 00:10:59,780 --> 00:11:03,270 know, bring more attention to your practice, you can also do 211 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,010 that. So I love how you can really 212 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,970 have, regardless of your goal, it seems like working with your 213 00:11:08,980 --> 00:11:12,130 brands and, and making sure that you put yourself out there have 214 00:11:12,140 --> 00:11:13,780 some really interesting benefits. 215 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,870 And as you said, you've been working with people who've seen 216 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,810 that. So that's, that's just so 217 00:11:18,820 --> 00:11:21,070 interesting to see. I appreciate you sharing those. 218 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,130 Yeah, no problem. Amazing. 219 00:11:23,260 --> 00:11:26,130 I've seen here. I went through your profile and 220 00:11:26,140 --> 00:11:27,690 I saw a little bit of what you do. 221 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,510 I saw that you work with a few different services these days 222 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,200 and in products have your own course, you have coaching that 223 00:11:36,210 --> 00:11:40,080 you do one-on-one or in groups. You also provide workshops at 224 00:11:40,090 --> 00:11:42,800 law firms and, and in other settings. 225 00:11:42,850 --> 00:11:46,340 And all serious, you know, also how, how can you tailor those 226 00:11:46,350 --> 00:11:49,240 two people's different needs? As I just mentioned, a few 227 00:11:49,250 --> 00:11:51,280 people might be, you know, I'm a lawyer. 228 00:11:51,290 --> 00:11:53,820 I love the firm where I'm at and I just want to grow here. 229 00:11:53,830 --> 00:11:57,400 But also there is other people who want to find work elsewhere 230 00:11:57,410 --> 00:11:59,680 or who want to, you know, go into their own practice. 231 00:11:59,730 --> 00:12:04,350 So how do you manage all of that those different goals and using 232 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:05,940 branding as a tool for achieving? 233 00:12:05,950 --> 00:12:07,300 Them. Yeah, definitely. 234 00:12:07,310 --> 00:12:10,160 So totally. You know, I totally agree with 235 00:12:10,170 --> 00:12:11,620 you. People have different needs and 236 00:12:11,710 --> 00:12:14,820 that's why I've built out an offer later letter that 237 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,930 addresses what people may be looking for at different price 238 00:12:17,940 --> 00:12:20,630 points and also different level of involvement, right? 239 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,170 So for the people who just want a proven system that they can 240 00:12:25,180 --> 00:12:28,890 execute themselves to build their presence on LinkedIn and 241 00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:31,810 start attracting opportunities, they could take the course 242 00:12:31,820 --> 00:12:35,590 that's like only $97.00, but it gives you the foundation and the 243 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,120 precise steps and examples and templates. 244 00:12:38,130 --> 00:12:40,550 So you could build your brand yourself starting today. 245 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:46,570 And then the people who want more tailored coaching because 246 00:12:46,580 --> 00:12:49,690 they have a specific audience that they want to target they or 247 00:12:49,700 --> 00:12:52,080 they feel lost on how they want to position themselves. 248 00:12:52,090 --> 00:12:55,080 They've done like litigation, but they've also done a little 249 00:12:55,090 --> 00:12:57,910 bit of corporate work like, you know, in that circumstance may 250 00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:59,910 be confused like how do I position myself? 251 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:03,170 And so if you want that more tailored help, but it's more 252 00:13:03,180 --> 00:13:06,310 condensed and limited to an hourly basis than Ioffer that 253 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,790 power hour that you can really get my tailored feedback. 254 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,260 And then for people who are just really busy, they don't want to 255 00:13:13,270 --> 00:13:16,050 think about it. They want a person like me who 256 00:13:16,060 --> 00:13:19,590 is an expert at brand strategy to just handle it all from how 257 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,820 to position themselves on LinkedIn, but also to help them 258 00:13:22,830 --> 00:13:26,390 write content in their voice with just an hour of their time 259 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,510 for an interview to gather those stories to make good content. 260 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:34,370 I just handle it from A-Z. It's like a white glove service. 261 00:13:34,380 --> 00:13:37,690 So some people might like that. And then for law firms, they 262 00:13:37,700 --> 00:13:40,930 really want to empower their attorneys to develop business 263 00:13:41,020 --> 00:13:45,120 and build their own brand. Because I think what's changing 264 00:13:45,130 --> 00:13:49,960 is that a lot of companies realize that people don't 265 00:13:50,010 --> 00:13:52,230 resonate with company logos anymore. 266 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,720 They resonate with people. That's why you see even in 267 00:13:54,730 --> 00:13:57,840 financial institutions like Blackstone, for example, they're 268 00:13:57,850 --> 00:14:01,060 already really well known. But you see John Gray, who's the 269 00:14:01,070 --> 00:14:04,620 CEO, he's always recording videos about him running in 270 00:14:04,630 --> 00:14:06,380 different locations that he travels to. 271 00:14:06,390 --> 00:14:09,220 You see Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan, but he already had a 272 00:14:09,230 --> 00:14:11,580 really strong brand. But I really see him amping up 273 00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:14,300 his LinkedIn presence and posting like videos of him in a 274 00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:17,400 really casual outfit, just sharing like an earnings report 275 00:14:17,410 --> 00:14:21,200 because they all realize that personal branding is important. 276 00:14:21,210 --> 00:14:23,380 That is what is going to set them apart. 277 00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:27,590 And really not only amplify their brand, but also bring up 278 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,790 their organizations brand. And so, yeah, law firms, I think 279 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,200 are also following suit on that. They realize that clients want 280 00:14:35,210 --> 00:14:37,750 to connect with the actual individual lawyer because if you 281 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,510 remove the corporate branding from all of these law firms, 282 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,650 they pretty much like sound the same across all the brochures. 283 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,610 And so your lawyers are the ones who really set your firm apart 284 00:14:47,620 --> 00:14:50,030 because people want to work with the lawyers that they trust and 285 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:51,930 like. And so, yeah, those are the 286 00:14:51,940 --> 00:14:54,650 different offers that I have. And it's tailored depending on, 287 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,730 you know, how much of A light touch or heavy touch you want 288 00:14:58,740 --> 00:15:00,870 with building your presence. Fantastic. 289 00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:03,420 Well, that's for the the podcast here. 290 00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:06,710 A lot of my following right now and people who are interested in 291 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,160 listening, our early career professionals are law schools 292 00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:12,140 students. And I'd love to hear a little 293 00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:15,980 bit about, you know, your thoughts on, you know, I'm an 294 00:15:16,030 --> 00:15:18,900 early career lawyer. I'm just starting to build my 295 00:15:18,910 --> 00:15:21,860 professional brand. I'm still figuring out what I 296 00:15:21,870 --> 00:15:24,260 want to do. So I don't want to kind of close 297 00:15:24,270 --> 00:15:28,280 myself to one area. What are some simple steps that 298 00:15:28,290 --> 00:15:32,580 you can take to build that professional brand and and still 299 00:15:32,590 --> 00:15:35,540 be, you know, I'm not an expert in any area yet. 300 00:15:35,550 --> 00:15:37,880 I'm just starting my career. I'm just finishing up law 301 00:15:37,890 --> 00:15:40,720 school, but I still want to put myself out there. 302 00:15:40,770 --> 00:15:43,700 What can professionals in in this kind of scenario do? 303 00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:46,760 That's a fantastic question, and I feel like you're actually an 304 00:15:46,770 --> 00:15:48,720 expert on this because you're doing it yourself. 305 00:15:48,770 --> 00:15:52,310 So I totally hear that someone who is just maybe in law school 306 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,950 or early in their legal career, they don't know yet what 307 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,590 practice area may be that they want to commit the entire course 308 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,950 of their legal journey for. So at this stage, it may be a 309 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,190 benefit to them to learn what are the different practice areas 310 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,190 out there. First kind of narrow down what 311 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,710 are some of the areas that you are interested in and start 312 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,780 maybe interviewing lawyers who practice in those areas like you 313 00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:19,090 are doing. DM them, see what you learn 314 00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:21,580 about their practice. You know, one of the things they 315 00:16:21,590 --> 00:16:23,560 like, what are the things that are challenging for them? 316 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,970 And then just use that not only for yourself to absorb it, but 317 00:16:27,060 --> 00:16:30,140 share that with your audience. Start reporting back like you're 318 00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:31,610 doing. You know, I had a conversation 319 00:16:31,620 --> 00:16:33,290 with so and so like this is what I learned. 320 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,720 You can build a brand that way where you are the person who is 321 00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:40,860 consistently reporting back for other audience members who are 322 00:16:40,870 --> 00:16:44,030 also maybe early on in their careers saying these are the 323 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,490 different options out there. And what I learned, I think 324 00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:50,030 that's a really great way. Another thing is, you know, you 325 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,430 don't have to start by posting. It may feel overwhelming in the 326 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:55,910 beginning. You can start with baby stuff. 327 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,910 So first thing is kind of just make sure you have a pretty 328 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:02,330 polished profile. You have a photo on there. 329 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,170 You have a banner, you have a headline that shows. 330 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,210 It could even be like, you know, law student exploring corporate 331 00:17:09,220 --> 00:17:11,990 transactions or something, like something that shows you have 332 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:13,290 some interest. If you have one. 333 00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:16,550 It could just say like law student at so and so university. 334 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,750 But yeah, have a profile where you are still, you know, you 335 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,990 have a photo and people know that you're a real person 336 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,849 because a lot of law students actually don't even have a photo 337 00:17:25,859 --> 00:17:28,240 or a headline. And especially in an age where 338 00:17:28,250 --> 00:17:32,160 we're very suspicious about fake accounts, not having those 26, 339 00:17:32,170 --> 00:17:34,580 it's kind of like, you know, these, these are all thought 340 00:17:34,590 --> 00:17:37,000 foundational things. And so I definitely recommend 341 00:17:37,010 --> 00:17:40,760 those basic things and then start reaching out to people 342 00:17:40,830 --> 00:17:44,860 that you want to network with to kind of get a sense of what it 343 00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:46,860 is that you may be interested in the future. 344 00:17:46,930 --> 00:17:50,080 And then people actually really love connecting with people, 345 00:17:50,090 --> 00:17:53,660 especially even if you are very experienced, they love hearing 346 00:17:53,670 --> 00:17:56,660 from junior lawyers or law students who have taken a 347 00:17:56,670 --> 00:17:58,620 genuine interest and what we're doing. 348 00:17:58,710 --> 00:18:01,620 And so when you send a connection request, I would 349 00:18:01,630 --> 00:18:03,820 recommend that you personalize that request. 350 00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:07,260 You can add a note saying, hi, I'm a student or I'm a, I'm a 351 00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:11,080 junior lawyer and I'm trying to explore my options on what I 352 00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:15,710 want to do with my legal career, your practice area and XYZ. 353 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,170 I've always found it really interesting for ABC reasons. 354 00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:22,110 I would love to learn more if you'd love to be open to 355 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:23,860 connecting. And then once they accept your 356 00:18:23,870 --> 00:18:26,490 connection request, follow up and say, Hey, like, would you be 357 00:18:26,530 --> 00:18:29,550 up for 15 minutes? Just talk and ask for me to ask 358 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,110 some questions about your practice area. 359 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,230 And then just like naturally start the relationship from 360 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,130 there. And so having a newsletter, 361 00:18:35,140 --> 00:18:38,790 having a podcast, that could be one way for you to start that 362 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,030 process more consistently and naturally because people are 363 00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:44,410 definitely open for it. But if you already have a 364 00:18:44,420 --> 00:18:46,790 platform or, or like a newsletter that's simple to 365 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,530 start, that gives you a little bit more, I guess, legitimacy 366 00:18:50,540 --> 00:18:52,700 and people wanting to come on, right? 367 00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:54,620 They're like, oh, wow, you have a podcast or you have a 368 00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:56,210 newsletter? Yeah, I'd love to be featured. 369 00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:58,740 It's like a natural opener freeze. 370 00:18:58,870 --> 00:19:01,910 That's one thing that I would recommend you do and you are 371 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:03,920 really the prime example for doing that because you've been 372 00:19:03,930 --> 00:19:05,540 doing that for a while. But I think that's a really, 373 00:19:05,550 --> 00:19:08,300 really great way to start. I love that, you know, it's 374 00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:11,970 sometimes I find that there's a lot of general principles, but 375 00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:15,560 then when it comes to actually giving you an actionable idea, 376 00:19:15,570 --> 00:19:17,180 it becomes a little harder, right? 377 00:19:17,250 --> 00:19:19,480 Or it's just all styles of people. 378 00:19:19,490 --> 00:19:22,300 Some people want to definitely be very low key in their 379 00:19:22,310 --> 00:19:24,920 presence online. And I know that also some 380 00:19:25,010 --> 00:19:28,220 companies kind of prefer that you convey yourself that way. 381 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,270 But I find it interesting to see that there's something that can 382 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,120 be done for any kind of profile and personality. 383 00:19:34,130 --> 00:19:37,960 And I'm also thinking about people who are maybe unsure how 384 00:19:37,970 --> 00:19:41,730 to present themselves online. So I love that that basics, you 385 00:19:41,740 --> 00:19:44,890 know, you said have a photo, have you know, where you're at 386 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:47,930 and basically have a profile at all so we can know you're a real 387 00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:50,890 person. That really helps a lot. 388 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,310 But I was wondering if there is any kind of like strategy or 389 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,850 habit that you would recommend to somebody who's wanting to put 390 00:19:57,860 --> 00:20:01,310 in the time to try and be, you know, a little bit putting 391 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,920 themselves out there, but also unsure of of how to go about it. 392 00:20:06,020 --> 00:20:10,250 So beyond, you know, the, the, the having a profile out there, 393 00:20:10,260 --> 00:20:13,290 you know, what would you say commenting on other people might 394 00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:16,490 be a good way to start? What are some things that come 395 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:19,070 to mind? Yeah, I actually have a system 396 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:24,090 on this because I think a lot of overwhelm comes from not knowing 397 00:20:24,190 --> 00:20:26,720 what to do and not having a system for it. 398 00:20:26,790 --> 00:20:30,520 And so the system that I recommend is dedicating about 90 399 00:20:30,530 --> 00:20:32,620 minutes per week. Even if you're busy, you can 400 00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:35,050 make time for 90 minutes a week to grow your network if you're 401 00:20:35,060 --> 00:20:38,060 serious about it. And so it's broken down into 402 00:20:38,190 --> 00:20:42,440 A1510 LinkedIn system. Spend one hour drafting a post. 403 00:20:42,490 --> 00:20:44,120 So it could be an educational post. 404 00:20:44,190 --> 00:20:46,230 Just think about what are some of the questions that you've 405 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,420 been asked or what are, was it legal development that recently 406 00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:51,620 came out that you could summarize for your audience? 407 00:20:51,630 --> 00:20:55,860 Relatable post, something that's sharing a little bit about you, 408 00:20:55,870 --> 00:20:59,180 Maybe something that's like, oh, these are, you know, I, I went 409 00:20:59,190 --> 00:21:01,700 through, I've done like a lot of interviews. 410 00:21:01,870 --> 00:21:04,780 These are the top things that I've learned in my interview 411 00:21:04,790 --> 00:21:05,940 process. And this is for like maybe 412 00:21:05,950 --> 00:21:10,780 junior lawyers top tips I have from my own experience, you 413 00:21:10,790 --> 00:21:12,880 know, and I want to share them with my network. 414 00:21:12,930 --> 00:21:16,520 That's one some just like stories from things that happen, 415 00:21:16,530 --> 00:21:19,860 just like day-to-day. Maybe it's like a mentor or a 416 00:21:19,870 --> 00:21:22,620 colleague who really helped you out and you want to give them a 417 00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:25,260 shout out, promotional post, a win from the week. 418 00:21:25,330 --> 00:21:27,300 You know, you don't want to share your client name or 419 00:21:27,310 --> 00:21:28,700 anything, you want to keep it confidential. 420 00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:32,450 But maybe you want an award, maybe you publish an article and 421 00:21:32,460 --> 00:21:36,760 you can share that. So just do one and then dedicate 422 00:21:36,770 --> 00:21:39,500 one hour to it. And then next thing is 5 423 00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:42,860 connection or sorry, 5 personalized DM's or comments. 424 00:21:42,930 --> 00:21:46,940 And so it could be just going through your feed and if someone 425 00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:51,000 had a major milestone that they hit, send them a genuine 426 00:21:51,070 --> 00:21:53,850 congratulatory e-mail or message on LinkedIn. 427 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,830 Comment on someone's post, but don't just say great insight or 428 00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,950 great post. Like add something a little bit 429 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:03,990 more personable and humanizing that really shows that you read 430 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,090 what they wrote and are adding a valuable and or even just like a 431 00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:10,660 very personal message. So yeah, you could either do it 432 00:22:10,670 --> 00:22:14,310 in the form of comments or DMS, but do 5 and then 10. 433 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,270 The last one is send 10 connection requests. 434 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,710 So we talked about personalizing the connection request, but 435 00:22:19,780 --> 00:22:23,670 basically I would say one hour for the post, 20 minutes to send 436 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,130 5 personalized DMS or comments, and then 10 minutes for sending 437 00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:30,290 10 connection requests that are also personalized. 438 00:22:30,380 --> 00:22:33,750 So that basically wraps them to 90 minutes per week that you can 439 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,940 spend doing it. And it's just really easy to 440 00:22:35,950 --> 00:22:40,730 remember 15101 post 5 connection or five comments or DMS and then 441 00:22:40,740 --> 00:22:42,410 10 connection. Requests amazing. 442 00:22:42,420 --> 00:22:46,130 I find that a lot of times when you have a specific system in 443 00:22:46,140 --> 00:22:48,970 place and can be methodical about it, it becomes a lot 444 00:22:48,980 --> 00:22:52,050 easier to actually stick to it right and and make it into a 445 00:22:52,060 --> 00:22:53,720 habit. So thank you so much for sharing 446 00:22:53,730 --> 00:22:56,650 that very, very actionable going going forward. 447 00:22:56,660 --> 00:22:59,270 I also wanted to ask you if you could share with our listeners 448 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,870 if somebody is interested in learning more about your work 449 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,290 and about you, where should they look for information? 450 00:23:06,380 --> 00:23:09,990 You can find me on LinkedIn. You can search my name Sunny Kim 451 00:23:10,060 --> 00:23:11,980 and my company name is Resonance Guide. 452 00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:14,620 You should be able to find me if you just look up Sunny Kim and 453 00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:16,570 Resonance. Guide fantastic. 454 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,860 Any final tips or encouragement for lawyers who want to grow 455 00:23:19,870 --> 00:23:23,160 their presence online and also attract opportunities? 456 00:23:23,230 --> 00:23:27,440 Yeah, my tip is, you know, I totally understand that it is 457 00:23:27,450 --> 00:23:30,600 scary. We are not taught in law school 458 00:23:30,610 --> 00:23:34,080 and very taught to limit a degree and even in law firms 459 00:23:34,090 --> 00:23:37,960 about how to build brand. And I get that as intimidating. 460 00:23:38,010 --> 00:23:41,090 But once you start taking the small steps that we talked 461 00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:43,790 about, maybe it's the first comment you write, maybe it's 462 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,180 the first connection request you sent, that first step is going 463 00:23:47,190 --> 00:23:50,500 to make the next, second, third step so much easier. 464 00:23:50,570 --> 00:23:52,460 All you need to do is just get started. 465 00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:56,980 And also, if you want, if you even, you know, want to amp up 466 00:23:56,990 --> 00:24:00,220 your profile and you feel like that needs a little bit of work, 467 00:24:00,270 --> 00:24:04,510 I actually have free profile optimization video on my 468 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,620 LinkedIn page that you can go to and check out. 469 00:24:06,670 --> 00:24:10,040 And if you subscribe to it, I also just share tips about 470 00:24:10,050 --> 00:24:13,520 things you can implement very easily through LinkedIn to 471 00:24:13,530 --> 00:24:15,440 attract whatever opportunities that you want. 472 00:24:15,450 --> 00:24:19,160 So I would start there and just, yeah, take baby steps. 473 00:24:19,210 --> 00:24:21,360 It's going to all that consistent action is going to 474 00:24:21,370 --> 00:24:26,460 add momentum and help you help you just really build visibility 475 00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:29,000 in a way that you didn't expect. So that's what I would. 476 00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:31,260 Say amazing. Well, once again, thank you so 477 00:24:31,270 --> 00:24:34,420 much for taking the time to Share your story and to be here 478 00:24:34,430 --> 00:24:36,400 in the podcast. And thank you all for tuning in 479 00:24:36,410 --> 00:24:37,430 today. Thank you.