1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,800 Welcome to studying law around the world. 2 00:00:15,030 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,160 is for. You today I have the opportunity 11 00:00:44,170 --> 00:00:47,860 to speak with Camilla Motta. She has an incredible practicing 12 00:00:47,870 --> 00:00:50,620 family law. She is a graduate of Osgood Hall 13 00:00:51,010 --> 00:00:53,660 and I'm so glad to be able to talk with her today. 14 00:00:53,670 --> 00:00:56,420 Thank you so much for making the time to be in the podcast today, 15 00:00:56,430 --> 00:00:58,580 Cavilla. Thank you, Klaus, for inviting 16 00:00:58,590 --> 00:01:00,220 me. It's actually really nice to be 17 00:01:00,230 --> 00:01:04,980 able to share my experience, not my views of how you know the law 18 00:01:04,989 --> 00:01:08,600 life is here in Ontario. And thank you for describing my 19 00:01:08,610 --> 00:01:12,440 practice as incredible. It's certainly is to start over 20 00:01:12,450 --> 00:01:16,400 podcast I I wanted to say that I don't think I ever had a guest 21 00:01:16,410 --> 00:01:19,700 before who practices family laws and to stay below for you to 22 00:01:19,710 --> 00:01:22,350 introduce herself. Still, my name is Camila Moda, I 23 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,380 share my Brazilian background with claws, so I am from Brazil. 24 00:01:26,470 --> 00:01:31,520 I immigrated here as a grown up already without family, and 25 00:01:32,350 --> 00:01:36,160 initially when I first immigrated, the licensing 26 00:01:36,210 --> 00:01:39,020 equivalency was not an option, so I would have to go back to 27 00:01:39,030 --> 00:01:42,440 law school. I still wanted to have kids, so 28 00:01:42,490 --> 00:01:47,140 I basically left law on the side for a while while I was going 29 00:01:47,150 --> 00:01:51,080 the family. Eventually the option to do the 30 00:01:51,090 --> 00:01:56,480 LM was available, so I had my kids already. 31 00:01:56,490 --> 00:02:00,840 So I went back to school, finished my LM, finished my 32 00:02:00,850 --> 00:02:05,020 NCAA, I did an article, I decided to do the LP. 33 00:02:05,030 --> 00:02:07,500 I didn't even try to find an article in position. 34 00:02:07,730 --> 00:02:10,300 From the beginning, I knew that eventually I would have my own 35 00:02:10,310 --> 00:02:15,600 practice and I had heard that the LP teaches you like some 36 00:02:15,610 --> 00:02:18,860 business you actually leave there with the business plan. 37 00:02:18,910 --> 00:02:21,940 So I know from the beginning that LP would be my choice. 38 00:02:21,990 --> 00:02:26,080 And I also, I was a little bit scared of some experiences I 39 00:02:26,090 --> 00:02:29,200 heard from article articling students. 40 00:02:29,550 --> 00:02:33,440 Like sometimes you hear amazing experiences, you know, people 41 00:02:33,450 --> 00:02:37,900 who are really lucky, but you also hear experiences like I was 42 00:02:37,910 --> 00:02:42,880 just photocopying or, you know, I, I was doing work that is not 43 00:02:42,890 --> 00:02:46,020 like legal training and I didn't want to take a chance. 44 00:02:46,030 --> 00:02:49,140 I didn't want to risk it. So at the LP, I also knew that 45 00:02:49,150 --> 00:02:51,980 it I would have some kind of standard experience and they 46 00:02:51,990 --> 00:02:53,240 did. I did learn a lot. 47 00:02:53,290 --> 00:02:56,010 I was exposed to different areas. 48 00:02:56,020 --> 00:02:58,630 Even though I always knew it was going to be family law. 49 00:02:58,810 --> 00:03:02,230 It was a way for me to expose myself to like an immigration 50 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:04,700 file and things like that because we do role-playing. 51 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,860 So it was very interesting. The result also, while the they 52 00:03:08,870 --> 00:03:12,280 have a lot of new ideas, like they have a department that is 53 00:03:12,290 --> 00:03:15,100 about innovation. So it's really nice to see the 54 00:03:15,110 --> 00:03:17,340 energy and all the ideas they have. 55 00:03:17,410 --> 00:03:20,690 And like, if I had more, more time available in my life, I 56 00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:22,920 would probably, you know, had joined because they always had 57 00:03:22,930 --> 00:03:24,800 like open doors, at least back in the day. 58 00:03:25,190 --> 00:03:27,540 They always felt like they were welcoming. 59 00:03:27,550 --> 00:03:29,880 So it was a really nice experience. 60 00:03:29,890 --> 00:03:34,680 I have friends from the LP that I still see when meets and like 61 00:03:34,690 --> 00:03:36,830 I refer people to that refer people to me. 62 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,210 Also. It was a nice experience. 63 00:03:38,220 --> 00:03:39,840 The work placements just for four months. 64 00:03:39,850 --> 00:03:43,840 And in my case, that was when the pandemic hit, so it wasn't 65 00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:46,800 even four months for me, but luckily I had enough for the 66 00:03:46,810 --> 00:03:50,430 license and then I got my license. 67 00:03:50,790 --> 00:03:53,400 Fantastic. And and you mentioned starting 68 00:03:53,410 --> 00:03:57,030 your own practice and and knowing that you want you would 69 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,420 be doing that from the get go. So so I'm curious about, you 70 00:04:00,430 --> 00:04:04,290 know, family law specifically of all areas in the few moments 71 00:04:04,300 --> 00:04:06,740 that made you the scientist starts revive law. 72 00:04:06,750 --> 00:04:10,410 And then also, was there like a specific problem that you saw 73 00:04:10,420 --> 00:04:13,550 often that you wanted to solve for families when you wanted 74 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,579 your friend? Decision one thing is for you to 75 00:04:17,589 --> 00:04:20,720 be a mature student and the other thing is for you to know 76 00:04:20,730 --> 00:04:22,900 like off college and offline school. 77 00:04:23,290 --> 00:04:26,780 Like my law degree is from I think 2005. 78 00:04:27,710 --> 00:04:31,220 So even though I'm a newish lawyer here, you know, Ontario, 79 00:04:31,230 --> 00:04:35,070 my law degree is not new, right? So I like when I opened revival, 80 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,520 I used to tell people I'm too old to have a boss. 81 00:04:37,770 --> 00:04:41,440 So ultimately that was me. I my idea, like I want to be 82 00:04:41,450 --> 00:04:43,590 able to have this work life balance. 83 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,120 You know, my priority were always my kids. 84 00:04:46,530 --> 00:04:49,960 So I knew that they were still little, that they would need me. 85 00:04:50,010 --> 00:04:53,350 I didn't want to no go work on Bay Street. 86 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,960 And you know, between crazy hours and all those things, I 87 00:04:56,970 --> 00:05:00,330 mean, I, I'm not, it's a wonderful career too. 88 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,310 It was just not for me considering my priorities and 89 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,430 where I was in my life at that point. 90 00:05:06,730 --> 00:05:12,270 So off when I got my license, opening my own practice was an 91 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:14,550 option, but it was also like scary option. 92 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,170 I didn't have experience, and funny enough, I was going for 93 00:05:18,180 --> 00:05:22,320 separation myself at the same time, so I just thought it was 94 00:05:22,330 --> 00:05:24,940 too much to handle. But it was also remembered the 95 00:05:24,950 --> 00:05:27,620 pandemic. So the courts were closed, no 96 00:05:27,630 --> 00:05:29,520 one was hiring. They were actually letting 97 00:05:29,530 --> 00:05:34,240 people go, so I didn't really know what to do, but I applied 98 00:05:34,250 --> 00:05:36,590 for some jobs. I got a job right away. 99 00:05:37,490 --> 00:05:41,650 Like within a week I got a job even in the in the middle of all 100 00:05:41,660 --> 00:05:43,720 that. But it was feast bleeding. 101 00:05:43,770 --> 00:05:48,760 No one was offering a job, a salary, you know, So it was 102 00:05:48,770 --> 00:05:52,540 feeding in King City, which was OK for me at the time, 103 00:05:53,510 --> 00:05:57,060 unfortunately didn't work. So I was there for less than a 104 00:05:57,070 --> 00:05:58,810 month. And I'm not going to share the 105 00:05:58,820 --> 00:06:01,280 details of that. So it just simply didn't work. 106 00:06:01,290 --> 00:06:05,040 And that was July 2020. So in August 2020, I kept 107 00:06:05,050 --> 00:06:08,480 applying, but there were like maybe one or two job postings 108 00:06:08,490 --> 00:06:12,120 because of the pandemic. And then I decided, well, you 109 00:06:12,130 --> 00:06:13,620 know, and remember, I'm separating. 110 00:06:13,630 --> 00:06:17,080 So I really needed income. Like, OK, so here I am. 111 00:06:17,090 --> 00:06:20,180 I'm going to do what I can, you know, I can. 112 00:06:20,570 --> 00:06:23,800 I knew how to do wheels. I'm going to start offering 113 00:06:23,810 --> 00:06:26,340 wheels and I'm going to start presenting myself as a lawyer. 114 00:06:26,350 --> 00:06:29,000 You know, I'm a family law lawyer and I'm going to be a 115 00:06:29,010 --> 00:06:32,270 state planning lawyer. At the time, I wasn't doing 116 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:35,540 markings or anything like that, but I quickly set up a website 117 00:06:35,550 --> 00:06:37,930 using Google. I, I'm a Google fan. 118 00:06:37,940 --> 00:06:40,900 So everything I have all my, my firm, everything is Google 119 00:06:40,910 --> 00:06:42,730 based. So I prepared my, my own 120 00:06:42,740 --> 00:06:44,900 website. It wasn't a huge fan, but you 121 00:06:44,910 --> 00:06:48,690 know, it was a way to show people my name, my e-mail, how 122 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:51,950 to contact me. I set up my Calendly at the time 123 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,650 was a free account and I actually found two, maybe or 124 00:06:55,660 --> 00:06:58,310 three clients. I'm Brazilian couples that hired 125 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,960 me to prepare. This takes planning documents 126 00:07:01,660 --> 00:07:05,130 and they did and that I was pretty confident right away to 127 00:07:05,140 --> 00:07:07,490 to prepare state planning. I did do that at my work 128 00:07:07,500 --> 00:07:10,750 placement. I used to go to to watch like 129 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,070 webinars every week about the about that. 130 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,490 So I was pretty good doing that. I'm like, OK, so at least this 131 00:07:18,500 --> 00:07:21,420 is stumpy. So here I am doing my invoices 132 00:07:21,430 --> 00:07:26,000 here and there and then a friend of a friend who had a lawyer who 133 00:07:26,010 --> 00:07:31,180 had a a love for a family law firm was looking for a lawyer 134 00:07:31,190 --> 00:07:34,270 but they didn't want to pay a salary to because of the 135 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,250 circumstances. And and then she ended up like 136 00:07:38,310 --> 00:07:44,670 pulled some quotes hiring me and that's where I worked for two 137 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,240 years. So I started there September 138 00:07:46,250 --> 00:07:48,540 2020. And that was it. 139 00:07:48,550 --> 00:07:52,630 So when you work for fees bleeding like the classic feast 140 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:57,330 bleeding, you just receive a portion of your collective fees. 141 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:04,980 So even if you build $1 million, if that the former can only 142 00:08:04,990 --> 00:08:09,340 collect 200,000, you are going to receive a percentage of that 143 00:08:09,350 --> 00:08:13,060 200,000, right. So that's very important. 144 00:08:13,070 --> 00:08:17,860 And sometimes like the form, you, you don't necessarily have 145 00:08:17,910 --> 00:08:21,400 control over how the payments are going to be made. 146 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:25,280 So sometimes the form is OK postponing the payment from the 147 00:08:25,290 --> 00:08:29,980 client, which means your salary is going to be postponed too. 148 00:08:30,710 --> 00:08:33,510 So it's scary. But at the time, like literally 149 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:38,230 there was no job, job postings. So it's what I had. 150 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,030 At least they could give me work. 151 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:46,780 So I got a, I started like at the beginning, my first four 152 00:08:46,790 --> 00:08:49,380 months, three months and my income was really low. 153 00:08:49,390 --> 00:08:54,750 But within 6 to 8 months, my income was pretty OK and it just 154 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,120 kept increasing from there because then you get more and 155 00:08:57,130 --> 00:09:02,640 more clients and and it was OK. Like my my first court 156 00:09:02,650 --> 00:09:07,300 appearance was I think in October 2020. 157 00:09:07,350 --> 00:09:11,270 And it was already an ex party motion, an ugly one, probably 158 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,180 the worst I ever had in my career. 159 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:18,210 And that tell you ended in my hand because, you know, like, we 160 00:09:18,220 --> 00:09:20,730 kind of knew we were going to lose that one and we did. 161 00:09:20,820 --> 00:09:24,700 But it's not bad when your first experience is a lost case, 162 00:09:25,050 --> 00:09:28,530 because then you don't feel guilty that it was like on you 163 00:09:28,610 --> 00:09:31,560 the loss. Like it was like no one would 164 00:09:31,570 --> 00:09:33,260 have. I couldn't like on the fact I 165 00:09:33,270 --> 00:09:37,530 had, I couldn't win that motion. But it gives you a lot of 166 00:09:37,540 --> 00:09:40,620 experience. It teaches you how to deal with 167 00:09:40,630 --> 00:09:46,060 your anxiety. I remember on that day that I 168 00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:49,860 really felt, oh, that's what they what they put in the 169 00:09:49,870 --> 00:09:51,800 movies. Because often in the movies you 170 00:09:51,810 --> 00:09:56,200 see a lawyer like running to the bathroom right before a court 171 00:09:56,210 --> 00:10:00,370 appearance, and then you can hear like that, you know, their 172 00:10:00,380 --> 00:10:04,320 guts are not really well. And I thought I was still 173 00:10:04,330 --> 00:10:07,870 nauseated. I didn't have to run to the to 174 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,420 the bathroom, but I felt the nausea from the anxiety, right? 175 00:10:12,470 --> 00:10:15,760 I really feel for my clients. That was always the case. 176 00:10:16,030 --> 00:10:19,700 So I knew that client was going to lose and and it was really 177 00:10:19,710 --> 00:10:21,690 bad, like having to go through that. 178 00:10:22,340 --> 00:10:25,640 But every single thing that happened in my life brought me 179 00:10:25,650 --> 00:10:28,970 here, right? So I'm thankful for everything. 180 00:10:30,570 --> 00:10:32,380 Yeah. So when you when you do face 181 00:10:32,390 --> 00:10:37,540 bleeding, you see exactly how much revealing, how much you are 182 00:10:37,550 --> 00:10:41,220 generating to the farm, how much the farm is collecting. 183 00:10:41,230 --> 00:10:43,080 So you are thinking money all the time. 184 00:10:44,110 --> 00:10:47,940 It's not just you know, you get your pay stub and that's it. 185 00:10:47,950 --> 00:10:51,450 No, like you need to know how am I going to bring clients? 186 00:10:51,460 --> 00:10:56,180 Yes, the firm can can give you some clients, but at some point 187 00:10:56,190 --> 00:10:58,300 they may stop giving you more clients, right. 188 00:10:58,310 --> 00:11:01,150 So you need to bring clients. In my case, I was able to 189 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,860 negotiate a higher percentage for the clients I was bringing. 190 00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:09,360 So obviously I wanted to bring more clients because if I'm 191 00:11:09,370 --> 00:11:13,700 bringing the clients, then I'm making more because it would be 192 00:11:13,710 --> 00:11:19,020 a higher percentage. And, and yeah, so I would say it 193 00:11:19,030 --> 00:11:23,400 wasn't hard to generate income. The first six months, yes, they 194 00:11:23,410 --> 00:11:27,000 were tough. But after that it was OK. 195 00:11:27,010 --> 00:11:31,480 And it was funny because I was also going like a month after or 196 00:11:31,490 --> 00:11:33,420 within the month I got my license. 197 00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:35,670 My ex-husband served me with an application. 198 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,730 So my actual 1st court appearance in Canada was my own 199 00:11:40,740 --> 00:11:44,060 case. And obviously in the in the 200 00:11:44,070 --> 00:11:48,140 facts of my case, it was sad that I was a lawyer, that I had 201 00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:51,120 my license and all that all that information about me. 202 00:11:51,130 --> 00:11:54,720 So the judges knew why was that I was a new lawyer and no doubt 203 00:11:55,460 --> 00:12:00,030 so both judges I was before from my own case, they you stopped 204 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,130 the hearing at some point they would excuse themselves and 205 00:12:03,140 --> 00:12:05,540 that's the other side to talk to me about my career. 206 00:12:06,420 --> 00:12:10,930 So I've received first hand career advice from very 207 00:12:10,940 --> 00:12:15,390 important judges in Ontario family law judges them like as a 208 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,850 family Lord lawyer, that's who you want to to listen to. 209 00:12:18,860 --> 00:12:24,130 And one big advice that I got from the second judge was do not 210 00:12:24,140 --> 00:12:26,510 worry about how you're going to attract clients. 211 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,850 The clients will come. Focus on your work, do the best 212 00:12:30,860 --> 00:12:32,880 you can and the the clients will come. 213 00:12:33,890 --> 00:12:37,320 And I always keep that in mind, like, and it's absolutely true 214 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,710 that at least in this six years, like five years and a half, the 215 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,020 clients did come and they keep coming. 216 00:12:46,010 --> 00:12:48,860 And yeah, as, like, as a business owner, you don't have a 217 00:12:48,870 --> 00:12:51,300 pay stub. So sometimes they do worry. 218 00:12:51,310 --> 00:12:54,780 Sometimes I like my goodness, like, is my income decreasing 219 00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:57,480 now? You know, like, do I need to for 220 00:12:57,490 --> 00:12:58,810 some work? Like, what's happening? 221 00:12:58,820 --> 00:13:02,070 Where are the clients? They disappeared because yes, 222 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:08,240 there are waves, but I I like so it's sometimes from time to time 223 00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:12,090 I do feel this anxiety, but I didn't really have to deal with 224 00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:14,480 that problem that Oh my God, I don't have clients. 225 00:13:14,490 --> 00:13:17,310 No, not yet thankfully and hopefully after. 226 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,470 Now did I put your question, what was the question again? 227 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,190 Oh, absolutely. And I do appreciate you going 228 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,670 into, you know, the, the clients specific and in the, in the 229 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:30,710 thoughts about money, because sometimes we talk about law and 230 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,900 we talk about, you know, developing a practice and all of 231 00:13:32,910 --> 00:13:37,470 that and focus a lot of on the work and don't even mention the, 232 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,210 the financial aspect of it. But it's, it's hard to ignore 233 00:13:41,220 --> 00:13:45,950 the reality that, you know, any profession has a specific ending 234 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,690 mind in a way, right? So I do appreciate you going 235 00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:51,720 into that. And I, I'd love to hear, you 236 00:13:51,730 --> 00:13:55,490 know, if, if you could tell me, you know, in, in another like 5 237 00:13:55,500 --> 00:13:58,430 minutes or so. What does a family law practice 238 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,390 looks like generally speaking? So is there a lot of like, is it 239 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,690 100% court applications? There is kind of like a 5050? 240 00:14:06,740 --> 00:14:10,830 Is it because if I understand it correctly, it identifies much 241 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,890 more as, as like a barrister practiced in a solicitor 1. 242 00:14:13,940 --> 00:14:17,310 So I'd, I'd love to hear a little more about like, even 243 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,130 though it's hard to say what a day-to-day looks like in any 244 00:14:20,140 --> 00:14:21,930 practice because it can be so varied. 245 00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:24,360 What does it generally look like? 246 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,050 I asked her 2 emails most of the time. 247 00:14:27,380 --> 00:14:29,370 Most of the time that's what I'm doing. 248 00:14:29,380 --> 00:14:34,290 I'm answering to either clients emails or obviously opposing 249 00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:36,350 counsel emails. But what does it look like? 250 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,750 I guess it also depends on how you want to build your career. 251 00:14:41,510 --> 00:14:46,110 So you have litigators, people who will only have court cases. 252 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,630 So they made you some negotiation from the beginning, 253 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,330 but right away they are starting an application and they're 254 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:54,510 pursuing that in court. You can be a mediator. 255 00:14:54,580 --> 00:14:58,870 You know, you can decide not to work as a lawyer necessarily and 256 00:14:58,940 --> 00:15:03,940 become a full mediator. My experience finding clients as 257 00:15:03,950 --> 00:15:08,320 a mediator, it's not it's not easy, it's hard or a lot of 258 00:15:08,330 --> 00:15:10,980 mediators offering family one mediation. 259 00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:14,750 There was a lot of competition and and no one like it. 260 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,860 So people don't necessarily need mediation, right. 261 00:15:17,870 --> 00:15:23,120 So I don't know how I don't think it's easy to be a fully 262 00:15:23,130 --> 00:15:27,400 family law mediator and earn all your income from that. 263 00:15:27,470 --> 00:15:32,250 The other option is there is like there is one side of this, 264 00:15:32,260 --> 00:15:34,890 not necessarily the family law, but it's very connected child 265 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:37,710 protection. But many lawyers will do just 266 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,750 child protection or just family law. 267 00:15:39,810 --> 00:15:41,570 I haven't done child protection yet. 268 00:15:41,580 --> 00:15:45,550 I only do family law for now. And right now I'm transitioning 269 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,750 my my practice to focus on collaborative just so 270 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,890 collaborative practice is a way of alternative dispute 271 00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:56,010 resolution. So we have mediation, we have 272 00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:59,470 negotiation, we have arbitration, and we have 273 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,560 collaborative practice. So collaborative practice. 274 00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:05,640 We work as a team. We have to have specific 275 00:16:05,650 --> 00:16:09,560 training as collaborative professionals and both sides 276 00:16:09,570 --> 00:16:14,050 need to have lawyers. So whoever is listening, I don't 277 00:16:14,060 --> 00:16:17,900 know if you're aware, but if you go to court hearing in Ontario, 278 00:16:18,130 --> 00:16:21,180 in family courts, you don't need to have a lawyer in 279 00:16:21,190 --> 00:16:24,720 collaborative practice, if you choose that option, you need to 280 00:16:24,730 --> 00:16:27,300 have a lawyer and that lawyer needs to be a collaborative 281 00:16:27,310 --> 00:16:29,560 lawyer. And the team, the full team 282 00:16:29,570 --> 00:16:32,960 would be also a financial professional who will work with 283 00:16:32,970 --> 00:16:35,380 the financial disclosure. And it's an impartial 284 00:16:35,390 --> 00:16:38,080 professional hired by both parties and a family 285 00:16:38,090 --> 00:16:42,040 professional who is a psychologist or social worker 286 00:16:42,290 --> 00:16:45,460 who is usually going to help first dealing with all the 287 00:16:45,470 --> 00:16:49,010 emotions. And also they help a lot with 288 00:16:49,020 --> 00:16:51,140 the parenting term. So when we're negotiating the 289 00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:54,700 parenting terms, Allison recognize the full team. 290 00:16:54,750 --> 00:16:58,340 I think it's like right now, it's the, I think it's the best 291 00:16:59,110 --> 00:17:01,540 approach to divorcing and separation. 292 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,280 The and like we are so committed to that that we actually sign a 293 00:17:07,290 --> 00:17:10,640 participation agreement. And that participation agreement 294 00:17:10,650 --> 00:17:14,280 says that those professionals involved can never represent 295 00:17:14,290 --> 00:17:17,720 those clients in courts. So that means if I work for a 296 00:17:17,730 --> 00:17:20,880 client as a collaborative lawyer, I can never be in court 297 00:17:20,890 --> 00:17:23,079 with that client. So that shows my commitment. 298 00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:26,560 That also shows my clients commitment because who wants to 299 00:17:26,569 --> 00:17:30,000 hire another lawyer and pay for them to review everything again 300 00:17:30,010 --> 00:17:32,760 and you know, miss out on everything that was already done 301 00:17:33,030 --> 00:17:34,570 right. And having the financial 302 00:17:34,580 --> 00:17:38,830 professional usually makes it easier and cheaper for the 303 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,210 parties to prepare their financial disclosure. 304 00:17:41,870 --> 00:17:44,640 And having the family professional, it's also cheaper 305 00:17:44,650 --> 00:17:47,360 to discuss with a family professional the parenting terms 306 00:17:47,370 --> 00:17:51,100 than paying two lawyers. And they are much better 307 00:17:51,110 --> 00:17:55,140 equipped to deal with all the emotions and mediate that kind 308 00:17:55,150 --> 00:17:57,020 of conversation then lawyers are. 309 00:17:57,030 --> 00:18:00,340 But even when there is no children involved, it's nice to 310 00:18:00,350 --> 00:18:03,100 have a family professional because even like in the middle 311 00:18:03,110 --> 00:18:06,760 of a conversation about spousal support, it's never easy. 312 00:18:06,810 --> 00:18:08,920 No one wants to pay spousal support. 313 00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:11,680 And who needs the spousal support usually really needs a 314 00:18:11,690 --> 00:18:15,230 spousal support. So it's a hard conversation and 315 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,770 the emotions got really high and the lawyers sometimes, well 316 00:18:19,780 --> 00:18:23,810 often we are very focused on the arguments and and the law in 317 00:18:23,820 --> 00:18:27,330 protecting our clients that we may miss some cues like, OK, 318 00:18:27,340 --> 00:18:29,110 this client is now is checked out. 319 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,750 You know, we cannot, there is no way we can reach an agreement 320 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,640 right now. And the defendant professional 321 00:18:35,650 --> 00:18:39,520 was there to help us with that, you know, to hold the brakes and 322 00:18:39,530 --> 00:18:42,580 check in with the clients at the right time and make sure that 323 00:18:42,590 --> 00:18:46,700 everybody, we say they are in their green brains so we can 324 00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:51,980 actually negotiate a settlement. So collaborative is beautiful 325 00:18:52,310 --> 00:18:56,240 and some lucky lawyers, they only do collaborative. 326 00:18:56,290 --> 00:18:58,750 So all their files 100% are collaborative. 327 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,780 Collaborative. I'm not there yet, but right 328 00:19:01,790 --> 00:19:05,220 now. So in 2024, September to 329 00:19:05,230 --> 00:19:10,580 November 2024, I had over 60 court cases and in 20 in 330 00:19:10,590 --> 00:19:15,380 February, no, sorry, April 2025, I had my first and only so far 331 00:19:15,390 --> 00:19:18,610 trial and after that I really decided I didn't want 332 00:19:18,620 --> 00:19:21,570 litigation. Litigation cost a lot of money 333 00:19:21,620 --> 00:19:25,630 to my clients and emotionally it's quite draining to everyone 334 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,450 around. That trial really affected my 335 00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:31,910 family life too. And remember, my priority is my 336 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:36,220 family. So I decided, you know what, 337 00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:39,400 like generally court is not helping my clients, it's not 338 00:19:39,410 --> 00:19:42,440 helping me, it's not helping my, my health, my, my work life 339 00:19:42,450 --> 00:19:44,510 balance. It's not what I want for my 340 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,190 life. I was already doing mediation 341 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,410 training and I was already waiting for my collaborative 342 00:19:50,420 --> 00:19:52,530 training. So I'm really transitioning. 343 00:19:52,750 --> 00:19:56,290 I'm not closing, at least not now, the door completely to 344 00:19:56,300 --> 00:20:00,910 litigation. But since then I've reduced my 345 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,990 litigation cases to two files. To the point that I had just 346 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,610 one. Now looks like I have some new 347 00:20:07,620 --> 00:20:10,760 litigation files coming, so I may end up with about 5 this 348 00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:13,750 year. But but yeah, so this is what 349 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,490 you do in family, like as a family lawyer, right? 350 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:20,390 Like we answer a lot of meals. We do a lot of calculations for 351 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,850 property division, family financial statements, incomes, 352 00:20:24,860 --> 00:20:29,850 you know, imputing income to someone because often the 353 00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:32,110 reported incomes are not the actual incomes. 354 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:35,730 So, you know, we need to understand a little bit this 355 00:20:35,740 --> 00:20:38,050 person, that's the profession, how much should they make? 356 00:20:38,180 --> 00:20:40,690 And then you need to know, you know, you know, you need to be a 357 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:46,940 little bit of investigator and you, you need to calculate 358 00:20:46,950 --> 00:20:50,680 retroactive support. You need to kind of like foresee 359 00:20:50,690 --> 00:20:53,140 how much support, like when you're calculating lump sum 360 00:20:53,150 --> 00:20:56,100 spousal support, how much support does this person 361 00:20:56,110 --> 00:21:01,400 expected to be entitled to, you know, in their lifetime from 362 00:21:01,410 --> 00:21:04,500 this relationship? So you kind of need to calculate 363 00:21:04,510 --> 00:21:06,200 all that. You need to know a little bit of 364 00:21:06,210 --> 00:21:08,620 taxes, you need to know a little bit of real estate. 365 00:21:08,630 --> 00:21:10,740 So we need to know a little bit of everything. 366 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,220 I have a lot of clients from Brazil, so I also need to know a 367 00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:18,050 little bit of the, you know, the connection between getting 368 00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:20,770 married in Brazil and moving here, separating here, 369 00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:24,610 separating Brazil, all that. So it's never boring. 370 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,450 There is never one case that's like the other. 371 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,910 You know, you just build on your experience. 372 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,850 Obviously I know way more now and I'm way more confident now 373 00:21:33,860 --> 00:21:38,320 than I was six years ago, but there is not one case that is 374 00:21:38,330 --> 00:21:41,170 like straight forwards and it's super easy. 375 00:21:41,180 --> 00:21:44,360 Oh, I've seen this before. There's always something that 376 00:21:44,370 --> 00:21:46,390 you have never seen before. It's. 377 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,230 Amazing. Well, thank you so much for 378 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,110 sharing the reality of the practice and also the different 379 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:53,190 possibilities within a family law practice. 380 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,540 That's so interesting. I think that like me, a lot of 381 00:21:56,550 --> 00:21:59,250 the listeners have been going through the Ontario bar exams 382 00:21:59,260 --> 00:22:02,410 and, and I think that one of the subjects that we do end up 383 00:22:02,420 --> 00:22:05,590 studying is about the collaborative practice. 384 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,120 But it, it, it's really just more about the rule of the of 385 00:22:09,130 --> 00:22:12,440 not being able to go to court with the same clients. 386 00:22:12,570 --> 00:22:15,520 So it's interesting that you brought up more of the why that 387 00:22:15,530 --> 00:22:18,220 is true. And, and I really like this idea 388 00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:20,270 of this is such a big commitment, right? 389 00:22:21,230 --> 00:22:24,290 And to, to wrap today's episode, I wanted to ask you a little 390 00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:27,720 more now focused on, you know, young lawyers, early career 391 00:22:27,730 --> 00:22:30,710 professionals were thinking about, you know, committing 392 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,800 their practice to family law or pursuing that as a career. 393 00:22:35,170 --> 00:22:38,960 I really like that you mentioned in a few times, you know, what 394 00:22:38,970 --> 00:22:42,600 does the practice also can be like and how it could be 395 00:22:42,610 --> 00:22:45,100 draining in some points. The litigation can be very 396 00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:48,680 complicated and can take a, a personal toll as well. 397 00:22:48,830 --> 00:22:51,790 So I see that there's a lot of like personal characteristics 398 00:22:51,860 --> 00:22:56,120 that then maybe we'll help you or will be not helpful when 399 00:22:56,130 --> 00:22:59,680 you're trying to to become a family lawyer. 400 00:22:59,750 --> 00:23:02,840 And wouldn't you ask from you, are there a few skills that you 401 00:23:02,850 --> 00:23:06,460 see in people that are usually helpful for those who want to 402 00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:10,880 pursue a family practice or, or if you have any comments 403 00:23:10,890 --> 00:23:14,340 regarding that, you know, in in a piece of advice for younger 404 00:23:14,350 --> 00:23:17,760 lawyers. Having life experiences does 405 00:23:17,770 --> 00:23:21,100 that a lot. That's what I draw on to. 406 00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:25,180 Like I have life experience as a child of divorce appearance. 407 00:23:25,530 --> 00:23:28,820 I divorced here in Ontario. I have kids. 408 00:23:28,870 --> 00:23:32,160 My kids are in shared quote UN quote custody. 409 00:23:32,170 --> 00:23:34,730 We don't use custody anymore, but they go back and forth. 410 00:23:34,930 --> 00:23:40,340 So I share a lot of these struggles my clients live and I 411 00:23:40,350 --> 00:23:44,640 can tell them, hey, we may be disturbed because I've seen 412 00:23:44,650 --> 00:23:47,940 this. I know how how this works but 413 00:23:47,990 --> 00:23:51,810 obviously a young lawyer won't have all this life experience 414 00:23:51,820 --> 00:23:54,520 and hopefully not every family law lawyer has been through 415 00:23:54,530 --> 00:23:57,560 divorce. So I guess you really need to 416 00:23:57,570 --> 00:24:01,420 have listening ears. You really need to hear and 417 00:24:01,430 --> 00:24:04,750 understand and believe your clients struggles because from 418 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,320 the outside if you don't have the delivered experience, you 419 00:24:08,330 --> 00:24:13,230 may not think it's important, but you really need to hear your 420 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,220 clients. So, for example, like the lunch 421 00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:19,940 bag, you couldn't clean the lunch bag, you know, or he sent 422 00:24:19,950 --> 00:24:23,100 a spray of milk, you know, like you're going to hear all this 423 00:24:23,110 --> 00:24:25,700 stuff the, the pants go, but they don't come back. 424 00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:27,880 He didn't brush the my child's hair. 425 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,790 So all this, especially if you don't have kids, you don't have 426 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,390 this in your life. It may sound OK, just leave me 427 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,770 alone. But no, like you, you're really 428 00:24:37,780 --> 00:24:39,390 dealing with people's lives, right? 429 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,790 And you're setting them up either for failure or for 430 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,630 success. So and you need to learn. 431 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,930 And with practice, you will learn how to the sweet spot 432 00:24:50,940 --> 00:24:54,790 between being detailed and not too detailed because the more 433 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,090 detail you have is also more doors for people to fight. 434 00:24:58,890 --> 00:25:03,230 But you also don't want to be so general that they're lost in the 435 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,860 middle of the conflict. And which time you do learn that 436 00:25:05,870 --> 00:25:08,660 the sweet spot. But yeah, you need to be you 437 00:25:08,670 --> 00:25:11,720 need to. I'm very I ground my clients a 438 00:25:11,730 --> 00:25:14,060 lot. You know, I tell, I shared with 439 00:25:14,070 --> 00:25:15,620 them the frustration and say, I hear you. 440 00:25:15,630 --> 00:25:19,380 It's frustrating. But here we cannot do magic. 441 00:25:19,710 --> 00:25:22,660 So let's be realistic and let's see what we can do. 442 00:25:22,670 --> 00:25:24,160 We cannot change someone's behavior. 443 00:25:25,030 --> 00:25:29,190 This is what we can do, right? So and I, I work a lot like 444 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,040 we'll have to be a little bit of a therapist too. 445 00:25:31,250 --> 00:25:33,440 So I work a lot with my clients on their own groove. 446 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,470 Look, you need like even my, my website now says that I want to 447 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,510 help my clients grow through their separation, right? 448 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,950 And, and I honestly believe that I grew for my separation and I 449 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,830 want to help my clients do that. They cannot, they cannot change 450 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,230 their access behavior, but they can change how they deal with 451 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,630 their, their access, right? So we need to be patient. 452 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,630 We need to, to hear, to listen to our clients. 453 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,570 We need to be detail oriented, you know, like we need to know 454 00:26:05,580 --> 00:26:09,830 what we're doing and consider all the different aspects, like 455 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,750 all the possibilities in the future. 456 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,990 What's going to go with what's going to happen with this kid? 457 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,410 This kid's gonna grow. They're going to college. 458 00:26:16,420 --> 00:26:21,600 They make, you know, so many things we're we're dealing with. 459 00:26:21,970 --> 00:26:25,910 And on the, I guess, on the professional career side of 460 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,720 things, what I would say to a young lawyer is if you know you 461 00:26:30,730 --> 00:26:33,450 want family law, don't wait until you're licensed. 462 00:26:34,220 --> 00:26:38,130 Show your future employer that you're interested in family law. 463 00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:43,040 Family law is hard. More than 50% of the lawyers 464 00:26:43,050 --> 00:26:47,220 that choose family law give up and go to different areas. 465 00:26:47,990 --> 00:26:53,840 So as someone who has tried hiring lawyers very recently, 466 00:26:53,890 --> 00:26:57,440 it's really hard to find someone who really knows what family 467 00:26:57,450 --> 00:27:01,230 lies about and is applying knowing how hard this is going 468 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:02,710 to be, how draining is going to be. 469 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,210 And despite all that, that's what they want. 470 00:27:05,620 --> 00:27:11,640 So prepare your resume, yes, get get the grades, do all that, but 471 00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:16,880 go to CPD programs, Go on the Law Society website and find CPD 472 00:27:16,890 --> 00:27:20,780 programs that are family law. Take whatever courses you can in 473 00:27:20,790 --> 00:27:23,200 family law. Osgood has a family law excuse 474 00:27:23,210 --> 00:27:26,360 program. Yes, it's, it's expensive, but 475 00:27:26,550 --> 00:27:29,580 it will show, which will give you information that you should 476 00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:33,320 have and it will show your future employer that you you're 477 00:27:33,330 --> 00:27:35,760 really dedicated to, to this area of law. 478 00:27:35,810 --> 00:27:38,700 There is the Family Law Summit organized by the Law Society 479 00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:43,920 every year and it's, I think it's about 300, four, $100 and 480 00:27:43,980 --> 00:27:47,500 basically like if that's all you're going to do, it's a lot 481 00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:50,740 of information, very good, very current information from the 482 00:27:50,750 --> 00:27:54,030 best in our area. And, and yeah, and, and read the 483 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,320 decisions and, and really show them that yes, this is what I 484 00:27:57,330 --> 00:28:00,260 want to, to do. You know, I know how hard it is 485 00:28:00,310 --> 00:28:03,370 and that's what I want I. Really appreciate you taking the 486 00:28:03,380 --> 00:28:05,080 time and coming into the podcast today. 487 00:28:05,090 --> 00:28:07,980 Camilla, thank you all for tuning into today's episode. 488 00:28:08,410 --> 00:28:09,260 Thank you.