1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,810 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,030 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,320 is for you. Today I'll be interviewing 11 00:00:44,330 --> 00:00:47,260 Rumiana Davidson. She is a former chief legal 12 00:00:47,270 --> 00:00:50,820 officer with over 15 years of experience in a global C-Suite 13 00:00:50,830 --> 00:00:53,520 level. And now she consults and helps 14 00:00:53,530 --> 00:00:57,320 companies in the mining and energy sectors, technology 15 00:00:57,330 --> 00:01:01,300 innovation, and many others. It's I'm very, very excited to 16 00:01:01,350 --> 00:01:04,239 chat with her and learn a little more about her experience. 17 00:01:04,290 --> 00:01:06,680 Thank you so much for being in the podcast today, Rumi. 18 00:01:06,770 --> 00:01:09,630 Thank you very much as well for organizing this awesome 19 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,140 initiative. I appreciate it and she started 20 00:01:12,150 --> 00:01:13,990 conversation. I'd love for you to introduce 21 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,060 yourself and share a little bit about your background and what 22 00:01:17,070 --> 00:01:21,660 your day-to-day looks like as a founder of Rokudan Strategic 23 00:01:21,670 --> 00:01:23,540 Solutions. Yeah, sure. 24 00:01:23,990 --> 00:01:27,550 Yeah, I have legal beg around, so they call it now here our 25 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,390 internationally qualified lawyer. 26 00:01:29,580 --> 00:01:32,090 Of course, when I came, I couldn't practice law, so I had 27 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:35,330 to step down from the purely legal profession and became an 28 00:01:35,340 --> 00:01:37,620 advisor. So people started asking me this 29 00:01:37,630 --> 00:01:40,690 and that. And overtime I realized if I do 30 00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:43,750 this, advise companies on the strategy and business 31 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:48,000 development or market entry and so on, why not just opening my 32 00:01:48,010 --> 00:01:50,570 own company and my own advisory practice. 33 00:01:50,580 --> 00:01:53,340 So it kind of naturally, naturally went there. 34 00:01:54,130 --> 00:01:58,340 I realized also over time that this business development, 35 00:01:58,410 --> 00:02:01,800 connecting people and so on, communicating, this is something 36 00:02:01,810 --> 00:02:03,660 I have been doing as a lawyer as well. 37 00:02:03,730 --> 00:02:05,560 This is what we lawyers do a lot. 38 00:02:05,630 --> 00:02:08,160 So for example, they would just use the fact that I speak 39 00:02:08,169 --> 00:02:11,580 multiple languages and take me to many negotiations where 40 00:02:11,630 --> 00:02:15,060 lawyers usually don't go. Often I would even not really 41 00:02:15,110 --> 00:02:17,810 disclose myself as alarm watch. I would be just part of the 42 00:02:17,820 --> 00:02:21,060 negotiation team because often when you have a lawyer, the 43 00:02:21,070 --> 00:02:23,430 table, you get that scared or where is my lawyer? 44 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,280 Why didn't take mine? So people get a bit defensive. 45 00:02:26,330 --> 00:02:29,940 So sometimes taking it off the lower head helps you 46 00:02:29,990 --> 00:02:33,300 communicating with people in business and so on and so forth. 47 00:02:33,310 --> 00:02:36,880 So basically I've been doing this already and it just 48 00:02:36,890 --> 00:02:41,650 naturally flew through advisory. Now at least what I do is I, I, 49 00:02:41,660 --> 00:02:46,610 I know many people and I listen to what their needs are mainly 50 00:02:46,620 --> 00:02:48,870 in the mining area nowadays, less in oil. 51 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:53,050 And when I identify some connecting dots between let's 52 00:02:53,060 --> 00:02:56,980 say two companies, 2 projects to people and so on, I just make 53 00:02:56,990 --> 00:02:59,080 the things work, build the partnership together. 54 00:02:59,090 --> 00:03:03,150 And I specialize in specializing building international 55 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:08,390 partnerships between Canadian companies or EU on one hand and 56 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,570 emerging markets on the other. Testing and you've worked across 57 00:03:13,580 --> 00:03:17,530 then like mining, energy, large infrastructure projects in 58 00:03:17,580 --> 00:03:20,370 different parts of the world and and you're just explaining how 59 00:03:20,380 --> 00:03:23,310 you connect now these companies, you Canadian companies. 60 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,250 So I'm curious of what first drew you into working into this 61 00:03:27,260 --> 00:03:31,130 complex and emerging markets? In fact, I first lived in Libya. 62 00:03:31,140 --> 00:03:34,190 I worked in a railway construction project there, so I 63 00:03:34,650 --> 00:03:38,210 had already learned some Arabic before, but I started using it a 64 00:03:38,220 --> 00:03:40,130 bit more. This knowledge of Arabic, 65 00:03:40,140 --> 00:03:44,170 Spanish and other languages probably made made me stand out 66 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:46,730 from the crowd of regular lawyers. 67 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,430 And I was invited to work in an oil company which was building 68 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,750 their mining division. So I was learning on the go. 69 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,780 I had never worked oil or mining before, but what was more needed 70 00:03:57,790 --> 00:04:01,460 was those transferable skill rather than specific industry 71 00:04:01,470 --> 00:04:05,200 knowledge at the time. But mining and oil, especially 72 00:04:05,210 --> 00:04:09,440 mining is a place which makes to travel to very interesting 73 00:04:09,450 --> 00:04:12,960 places. Because mining is developed as 74 00:04:12,970 --> 00:04:16,250 it is in Canada. It is also, well, it's, it's all 75 00:04:16,260 --> 00:04:19,620 over the world and it's usually quite exciting places in remote 76 00:04:19,630 --> 00:04:21,779 locations. Even in Canada, it's far in the 77 00:04:21,790 --> 00:04:24,420 north, for example. It can be any, any place in 78 00:04:24,430 --> 00:04:27,220 Africa. It can be in the Middle East, in 79 00:04:27,230 --> 00:04:29,680 Asia, in Latin America, anywhere. 80 00:04:29,990 --> 00:04:32,940 And it's, it's exciting. Part of the interesting part 81 00:04:32,950 --> 00:04:36,340 about this job is that you get to travel to to interesting 82 00:04:36,350 --> 00:04:37,690 places. A lot. 83 00:04:37,750 --> 00:04:40,820 Very cool, very cool. And from what I understand, a 84 00:04:40,830 --> 00:04:43,840 big part of your work sits on this intersection of law, 85 00:04:43,890 --> 00:04:47,100 strategy, culture. So I'm, I'm curious, you know 86 00:04:47,110 --> 00:04:50,320 what the company's most often underestimate when they're 87 00:04:50,330 --> 00:04:53,080 trying to enter a new market from your experience? 88 00:04:53,150 --> 00:04:56,360 The one thing that people underestimate generally, not 89 00:04:56,370 --> 00:04:59,600 only companies but many people, is communication. 90 00:04:59,670 --> 00:05:03,500 So people believe that it is only a language problem and yet, 91 00:05:03,510 --> 00:05:05,560 and yet then you hire an interpreter if you don't speak 92 00:05:05,570 --> 00:05:08,070 the language or you just use English as an international 93 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,610 language and it just makes your communication easier. 94 00:05:10,620 --> 00:05:15,700 But often communication is not about knowing a language or even 95 00:05:15,710 --> 00:05:18,470 knowing that technology. It's about understanding the 96 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,120 cultural context and the different patterns that people 97 00:05:21,130 --> 00:05:23,370 in different parts of the world have. 98 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,470 It's different expectation of time. 99 00:05:25,540 --> 00:05:28,170 It's different expectation of goals. 100 00:05:28,180 --> 00:05:32,870 It's different the expectation of even of a culture in, in the 101 00:05:32,940 --> 00:05:36,750 Middle East, in, in, in many Muslim countries, contracts are 102 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,110 called man-made paper. So they're not taking as serious 103 00:05:40,180 --> 00:05:42,840 is some oral agreement that might be behind the scene or 104 00:05:42,850 --> 00:05:45,950 around the, the contract itself. So people from the Western 105 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,360 Hemisphere, when they sign a contract with them, they expect 106 00:05:48,370 --> 00:05:50,930 that the the letter of the contract will be followed. 107 00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:53,560 But the other party does not really see things this way. 108 00:05:53,570 --> 00:05:56,140 They see it as just, that was the agreement at the time. 109 00:05:56,150 --> 00:05:58,900 Yes, we put it on paper, but it's a man made paper. 110 00:05:58,910 --> 00:06:00,680 So it doesn't have to stay there forever. 111 00:06:00,690 --> 00:06:04,660 It's a it's a fluid and interpretable and so on and so 112 00:06:04,670 --> 00:06:07,120 forth. Differences in communication 113 00:06:07,130 --> 00:06:11,170 before partnership is made, before the deal is done, after 114 00:06:11,180 --> 00:06:14,850 the deal is closed or it's a conflict stage are are very 115 00:06:14,860 --> 00:06:17,270 important and often underestimate but. 116 00:06:17,510 --> 00:06:19,850 Very interesting point. Now I think that makes a lot of 117 00:06:19,860 --> 00:06:21,990 sense. The the intercultural 118 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,490 communication pieces is one that really needs you. 119 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,350 People involved need to be aware, and I'm curious to, you 120 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,270 know, being involved in these transactions and projects in 121 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:36,350 Africa, the Middle East, Asia, Europe, all around really is 122 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,610 there, you know, one lesson from cross-border work that has 123 00:06:39,620 --> 00:06:43,190 stayed with you overtime. Yes, one lesson, try to listen 124 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,900 to people and hear them out first, because before you speak 125 00:06:45,910 --> 00:06:49,810 you're like about your goals and your because shooting your your 126 00:06:49,820 --> 00:06:52,820 elevator pitch tried to listen a little bit about what they're 127 00:06:52,830 --> 00:06:55,660 looking for. Maybe customize your real 128 00:06:55,670 --> 00:06:58,580 message. I love that like Chardon Suite, 129 00:06:58,590 --> 00:07:01,270 that's it. Listen, really, really fun. 130 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,840 Being this deeply involved in the mining sector. 131 00:07:03,910 --> 00:07:07,320 How do you see, you know, the the role of lawyers and advisers 132 00:07:07,330 --> 00:07:11,990 evolving in this space? The law of lawyers in more 133 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,370 regulated jurisdictions such as Canada and less regulated 134 00:07:16,380 --> 00:07:20,730 jurisdictions such as let's say Africa or Middle East or or the 135 00:07:20,740 --> 00:07:23,790 post Soviet Union, the space, the rules are different, the 136 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,110 expectations are different and limitations are different. 137 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:31,090 So let's say in the post Soviet countries, the lawyer is 138 00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:34,520 flexible in you're a lawyer and they expect you, you know, all 139 00:07:34,530 --> 00:07:37,890 the laws in, in the entire world and you have to be able to like 140 00:07:37,900 --> 00:07:41,990 Orient yourself whenever you go, you just read the contract, read 141 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:43,890 the law and you have to understand how it works. 142 00:07:43,950 --> 00:07:49,290 While here you are limited by jurisdiction, you're limited by 143 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:52,900 a lot of ethics of standards and so on. 144 00:07:52,910 --> 00:07:57,510 Your this, the, the unauthorized practice rules and so on and so 145 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,140 forth. So the lawyers in some places 146 00:08:01,150 --> 00:08:04,810 are less regulated, which means they're more commonly used in 147 00:08:04,820 --> 00:08:09,110 transactions where they're not necessarily qualified to do by 148 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,070 law. But when you understand the 149 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,170 general principles of how things works, it comes to about the 150 00:08:14,180 --> 00:08:15,970 same. So the world is divided into 151 00:08:15,980 --> 00:08:19,490 two, three legal systems. And once you know how how it 152 00:08:19,500 --> 00:08:21,230 works, you you know what to expect. 153 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,950 So even if you need a local lawyer for something, you just 154 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,830 point him and you say I need this. 155 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:28,590 And they tell you, no, we don't have it. 156 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,890 And I say, no, I, I know that you do find it. 157 00:08:31,340 --> 00:08:35,000 But what how is this not try to find it there, somewhere there. 158 00:08:35,010 --> 00:08:37,870 And then if they come back to me, how did you know? 159 00:08:37,909 --> 00:08:40,270 Like that's what I do. I know. 160 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,530 So yeah, that's how it works sometimes. 161 00:08:43,539 --> 00:08:45,790 I love that. It really is interesting. 162 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,050 Sometimes we'll also hear people trying to compare, you know, 163 00:08:49,060 --> 00:08:52,720 civil law and common law and how different they are at the same 164 00:08:52,730 --> 00:08:54,450 time. More and more I just see that 165 00:08:54,460 --> 00:08:56,910 there's like really a big convergence, especially in 166 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,070 commercial law, where basically most of the business world 167 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,910 speaks the same language. And, you know, basically 168 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,170 everything kind of flows either, you know, with, with kind of New 169 00:09:06,180 --> 00:09:10,570 York as a, as a place or London. And then basically off of that 170 00:09:10,580 --> 00:09:13,810 kind of the whole world of, of bigger transactions go. 171 00:09:13,820 --> 00:09:15,760 And it's been interesting to see. 172 00:09:15,810 --> 00:09:18,280 But I also wanted to ask, you know, when you think about 173 00:09:18,290 --> 00:09:21,670 mining, when you think about this career is I, I can imagine 174 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:26,140 that it's a very much male dominated stem oriented sector. 175 00:09:26,190 --> 00:09:28,280 So why don't you ask? You know, I saw you were an 176 00:09:28,290 --> 00:09:31,680 executive with the executive committee of women in mining in 177 00:09:31,690 --> 00:09:33,920 Montreal. What has surprised you the most 178 00:09:33,930 --> 00:09:36,460 about being a woman and a lawyer in this industry? 179 00:09:36,590 --> 00:09:39,420 Well, in fact, the first thing that surprised me was that there 180 00:09:39,430 --> 00:09:43,060 was a woman in mining as a group, as organization. 181 00:09:43,070 --> 00:09:46,690 I didn't know about this. Not many people here in Canada 182 00:09:46,700 --> 00:09:49,150 also don't know even within the industry. 183 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:54,180 I was presenting our organization at the board of Big 184 00:09:54,190 --> 00:09:57,200 Mining Association and the questions I got after this board 185 00:09:57,210 --> 00:09:59,980 were were were were very surprising. 186 00:09:59,990 --> 00:10:03,200 I heard people say that we didn't know you guys exist 187 00:10:03,210 --> 00:10:06,300 before. For US, women were the wives of 188 00:10:06,310 --> 00:10:09,440 the mining people who would organize dinners or events and 189 00:10:09,450 --> 00:10:12,300 so on and so forth. And they didn't really see that 190 00:10:12,370 --> 00:10:15,140 we we can have a presence in the industry. 191 00:10:15,210 --> 00:10:19,700 In fact, now in Canada about 80% and and worldwide about 80% of 192 00:10:19,710 --> 00:10:22,820 the industry is dominated by men, which is natural. 193 00:10:22,910 --> 00:10:27,110 It is normal in a way, but we exist, we make the change and 194 00:10:27,430 --> 00:10:31,360 we, we bring a different perspective to projects the 195 00:10:31,370 --> 00:10:35,560 boards in the mind. And this is interesting, 196 00:10:35,750 --> 00:10:39,860 empowering, sometimes difficult because sometimes you face a 197 00:10:39,870 --> 00:10:44,350 situation like is there a toilet for girls or no and stuff like 198 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,700 this. And some places it is not really 199 00:10:46,710 --> 00:10:49,060 made so. But I was recently in Saudi 200 00:10:49,070 --> 00:10:54,770 Arabia at the rest of my forum and I met a lot of women there 201 00:10:54,780 --> 00:10:59,030 that are building their women in mining chapters and their women 202 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,090 in mining associations. Also went to Oman after I saw 203 00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:05,040 women in the mine engineers and so on working. 204 00:11:05,050 --> 00:11:07,870 And I asked them how it was. And all of them said, you know, 205 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,410 they, they look at you weirdly at the beginning, but once they 206 00:11:10,420 --> 00:11:13,270 see that you're good at what you're doing, that's all that 207 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,090 matters. And you just do your job and 208 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:17,010 they just appreciate it and that's it. 209 00:11:17,060 --> 00:11:19,750 Amazing. Well, I saw you were recently 210 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,620 in, in a big conference as well and it's been very interesting 211 00:11:23,690 --> 00:11:26,330 follow a little bit of your career since we, we kind of got 212 00:11:26,340 --> 00:11:28,870 to share the classroom. I'd, I'd love to, you know, 213 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,870 maybe before our final question to hear a little bit more about 214 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,270 these opportunities. Do you see them mostly as, you 215 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,690 know, networking opportunity? Do you usually already have, you 216 00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:40,880 know, a few specific people that you're looking into speaking in 217 00:11:40,890 --> 00:11:43,730 these events? How does that approach comes in 218 00:11:43,740 --> 00:11:46,450 the way of like a strategy and business development for you? 219 00:11:46,500 --> 00:11:49,190 Well. In my corporate career, I didn't 220 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:54,800 really have a necessity to go to conferences and I would go often 221 00:11:54,810 --> 00:11:57,840 just for fun or just for the, for the, for, for hanging out a 222 00:11:57,850 --> 00:12:01,140 little bit. I was not proactive there and I, 223 00:12:01,150 --> 00:12:04,820 I had all the consultants running around me and trying to 224 00:12:04,830 --> 00:12:07,860 sell me services and so on. And this was a little bit, even 225 00:12:08,010 --> 00:12:10,060 even a little bit annoying at the time. 226 00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:17,420 Now that I'm at the other side of the, of the, of the, the 227 00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:21,460 other group, let's say I find the conference is extremely 228 00:12:21,470 --> 00:12:25,640 enriching and interesting. I don't go much to listen to 229 00:12:25,710 --> 00:12:28,910 channels and so on. I just select a few of them when 230 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,840 I really need to hear the speaker or connect with the 231 00:12:31,850 --> 00:12:34,420 speaker or want to hear something that I know it's going 232 00:12:34,430 --> 00:12:39,680 to be new or, or, and I use it for B2B meetings during the day 233 00:12:39,690 --> 00:12:42,820 a lot as well, which are organized in advance or just on 234 00:12:42,830 --> 00:12:44,780 the spot. Someone calls you like can you 235 00:12:44,790 --> 00:12:46,550 come, we need to talk and so on and so forth. 236 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:49,300 Because people, especially in the mining know each other in a 237 00:12:49,310 --> 00:12:52,480 way all over the world. It's a small world and we kind 238 00:12:52,490 --> 00:12:55,140 of meet people we know every time we go somewhere. 239 00:12:55,150 --> 00:12:58,800 But another important part of this conferences is the parties 240 00:12:58,810 --> 00:13:01,420 in the evening, which are happening. 241 00:13:01,430 --> 00:13:04,890 Different companies organized the conference itself, organized 242 00:13:04,900 --> 00:13:07,910 some of them, and people are a little bit less tents in the 243 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,450 evening event to a bit more relaxed and a bit more open to 244 00:13:10,460 --> 00:13:13,690 speak. So all these, the official part, 245 00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:18,040 the panels, the one-on-one meetings and the social events 246 00:13:18,050 --> 00:13:21,740 in the evening help you network, broaden your perspective, learn 247 00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:23,610 the gossip, learn the new things. 248 00:13:23,620 --> 00:13:25,110 Sometimes they're behind the scene. 249 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,030 They don't talk about this at the panels because it's not 250 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,400 something you want to talk about openly and be recorded and so on 251 00:13:31,410 --> 00:13:35,450 and so forth. So it is absolutely necessary to 252 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,120 attend some of them, maybe not all you select at some point you 253 00:13:39,130 --> 00:13:41,440 realize which ones should better your goals. 254 00:13:41,650 --> 00:13:45,860 And, and, and it's a it's, it's indispensable, I would say, 255 00:13:45,870 --> 00:13:48,600 because that's the personal human contact you have. 256 00:13:48,650 --> 00:13:52,200 You cannot have it over Zoom. That's why I don't rarely attend 257 00:13:52,210 --> 00:13:53,820 online conferences or something with. 258 00:13:53,830 --> 00:13:55,830 It just doesn't bring that the same value. 259 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,600 Absolutely. No, that makes a lot of sense. 260 00:13:57,610 --> 00:14:00,780 I appreciate you sharing that to to wrap up today's episode, I 261 00:14:00,790 --> 00:14:03,420 wanted to ask you, oh, thinking about young lawyers who are 262 00:14:03,430 --> 00:14:07,260 interested in working it in, in the international sectors of 263 00:14:07,270 --> 00:14:10,990 law, mining, advisory roles. What Maybe it's a piece of 264 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,030 advice that you would give to Dan to help and plan the next 265 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,810 steps, or maybe even an advice that you wish you would have 266 00:14:17,820 --> 00:14:20,910 received as a young lawyer starting out well. 267 00:14:20,980 --> 00:14:25,330 One of the things that we talk a lot about in the mining industry 268 00:14:25,340 --> 00:14:29,710 is the gap between people who are going to retire and majority 269 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,250 of people reminding people all over the world and specifically 270 00:14:33,260 --> 00:14:36,870 in Canada are going to retire in the coming 10 years and there 271 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,370 are not enough young people to replace them. 272 00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:43,200 And this is valid for for this industry. 273 00:14:43,570 --> 00:14:46,640 Even lawyers that are specified in this years the industry are 274 00:14:46,650 --> 00:14:49,720 not as many as there are many, let's say, immigration lawyers 275 00:14:49,730 --> 00:14:52,510 or family lawyers or criminal lawyers and so on and so forth. 276 00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:56,500 In our cohort. I sometimes ask people like, 277 00:14:56,510 --> 00:14:59,040 guys, do you want me to share mining events and so on. 278 00:14:59,050 --> 00:15:01,640 And there are very few people that are actually interested. 279 00:15:01,650 --> 00:15:05,300 And I met many people that actually that that that live 280 00:15:05,310 --> 00:15:08,200 here in Canada, which is one of the biggest smiling players in 281 00:15:08,210 --> 00:15:12,540 the world. 40% of the listed companies are listed in Toronto 282 00:15:12,590 --> 00:15:15,590 in the mining sector, 40% in the world. 283 00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:18,340 And there's so many people who don't know anything about mining 284 00:15:18,350 --> 00:15:22,080 or often I get the question. You mean crypto mining? 285 00:15:22,090 --> 00:15:25,610 So now that I say I work in mining, I have to say in the 286 00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:31,870 traditional meaning the words. So, yeah, there's so many people 287 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,170 who are not aware that this exists or there is even another 288 00:15:36,330 --> 00:15:41,040 side of the problem, that many young people have a very 289 00:15:41,050 --> 00:15:43,340 negative opinion about the industry. 290 00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:45,670 Is something polluting? Is something bad. 291 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,100 Sometimes they teach them it's cool. 292 00:15:47,150 --> 00:15:50,740 My kids came from school and someone told him about that mom 293 00:15:50,750 --> 00:15:52,360 on my name is bad. Why? 294 00:15:52,370 --> 00:15:54,380 Why do you do this? And I'm like, what do you mean? 295 00:15:54,390 --> 00:15:56,820 Why is it bad? So someone tells them these 296 00:15:56,830 --> 00:15:59,480 things or they hear them from someone or it's the 297 00:15:59,660 --> 00:16:02,710 informational space they're they're they grow up in. 298 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,030 I can tell you for sure mining is not as bad as they say. 299 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,950 It's in fact one of the most important parts of the 300 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,730 transition in energy efficiency and and green agenda. 301 00:16:14,810 --> 00:16:17,110 Whatever doesn't grow, it is mine. 302 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,870 So it's either grown or mined. And all those technologies that 303 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,630 we use, including a they all need metals and sources of 304 00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:28,210 other. So mining is not bad. 305 00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:32,660 Mining is absolutely this sensible, very interesting and 306 00:16:32,670 --> 00:16:34,740 it's exciting working in this industry. 307 00:16:34,810 --> 00:16:38,360 Very, very nice. So so let's imagine here, I just 308 00:16:38,370 --> 00:16:41,560 graduated law school. I'm starting my first job and I 309 00:16:41,570 --> 00:16:43,860 once you're getting to mining, but I'm just in a traditional 310 00:16:43,870 --> 00:16:45,990 law office. What is just a simple thing that 311 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,780 I could start doing you. You said attending events would 312 00:16:48,790 --> 00:16:51,100 be maybe one of the the good ideas. 313 00:16:51,490 --> 00:16:54,920 I'm not sure if we say PD, AC or PDAC for. 314 00:16:55,170 --> 00:16:57,400 Some people call it PDC, Some people called. 315 00:16:58,010 --> 00:17:00,560 In Toronto, right? And, and what are some other 316 00:17:00,570 --> 00:17:03,680 things you would recommend for for women joining the Women's 317 00:17:03,690 --> 00:17:07,750 Association in mining? Women in mining is a is a great 318 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,050 start for both women and men because also men are welcome as 319 00:17:11,060 --> 00:17:12,690 the events, their regular events. 320 00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:15,829 There is a local chapter in many cities. 321 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:19,349 So it's not something there is also the national women in mine 322 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,790 in Canada, but the events happen in local chapters usually. 323 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,069 So there is a Toronto one, there is a Montreal one where I am and 324 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:29,250 now and now there is the Sudbury and so on and so forth. 325 00:17:29,580 --> 00:17:34,300 So also there are CIM Cents, Canadian Institute of Mining and 326 00:17:34,350 --> 00:17:36,820 many more. So once you, once you go to one 327 00:17:36,830 --> 00:17:40,480 Tree events, I can tell you the first time I attended PDAC, it 328 00:17:40,490 --> 00:17:43,140 was because I was invited at Dolores Park party. 329 00:17:43,150 --> 00:17:46,360 In fact, we were their clients. So they invited us and, and I 330 00:17:46,370 --> 00:17:48,490 took the day pass just to see what's going on. 331 00:17:48,500 --> 00:17:51,470 And I was a little bit like I was, even though I had been 332 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,380 working in the mining industry, I was not founded. 333 00:17:53,390 --> 00:17:56,060 I was like, it was my first and I, I felt a little bit like 334 00:17:56,070 --> 00:17:57,400 weird. And it's huge. 335 00:17:57,410 --> 00:18:00,220 I think you, you volunteered last year, you, you saw it's 330 336 00:18:00,230 --> 00:18:03,840 thousand people participate. It's something like grandiose. 337 00:18:03,950 --> 00:18:06,980 And then I went to the first woman in mining event and then I 338 00:18:06,990 --> 00:18:09,680 didn't know anyone and I was staying in the corner and didn't 339 00:18:09,690 --> 00:18:12,160 know how to talk to people, what to talk about. 340 00:18:12,170 --> 00:18:15,200 Everything was so new. Now I'm part of the gang. 341 00:18:15,210 --> 00:18:18,930 Now wherever I go, I meet people I know and and and this amount 342 00:18:18,940 --> 00:18:21,480 of people that I know grows with every event. 343 00:18:21,610 --> 00:18:24,840 It's usually quality people. It's it's interesting people. 344 00:18:24,850 --> 00:18:28,720 It's it's important to start start understanding how things 345 00:18:28,730 --> 00:18:32,120 work, which parties are worth it, which parties are maybe not 346 00:18:32,180 --> 00:18:35,580 less interesting for you at this moment, which events, which 347 00:18:35,590 --> 00:18:39,420 panels, which launches which there are things happening 348 00:18:39,590 --> 00:18:42,540 almost every week or every every month for sure. 349 00:18:42,550 --> 00:18:46,140 In in in most cities is for in Toronto for sure. 350 00:18:46,190 --> 00:18:50,140 So you just go to one talk to people and they tell you all 351 00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:53,410 want to this event. Do you want to join go and it's 352 00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:55,780 not so expensive. Of course, the big conferences 353 00:18:55,790 --> 00:18:59,600 can be quite fence is expensive, but those smaller events that 354 00:18:59,610 --> 00:19:04,840 they're like 25 to $60.00, which is I guess absolutely doable. 355 00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:06,850 Amazing. Well, thank you so much for 356 00:19:06,860 --> 00:19:09,910 taking the time to share a little bit about your story and 357 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,430 and this insights with our listeners today. 358 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,110 Really, really, really appreciate it. 359 00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:17,810 Thank you very much. It was very nice talking to you.