1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:16,460 Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in 2 00:00:16,470 --> 00:00:19,360 each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and 3 00:00:19,370 --> 00:00:22,750 professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal 4 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,040 education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real 5 00:00:26,050 --> 00:00:28,980 life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the 6 00:00:28,990 --> 00:00:31,880 decisions that shaped their paths whether you're planning. 7 00:00:31,890 --> 00:00:34,010 To study abroad. Thinking about working in 8 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:37,380 another legal system or just curious about how law works 9 00:00:37,460 --> 00:00:40,240 around the world? This podcast is for you. 10 00:00:43,170 --> 00:00:45,620 Today I'll be interviewing Kasper Lindholm. 11 00:00:45,630 --> 00:00:50,380 Den is a lawyer who deals with company law and commercial law 12 00:00:50,390 --> 00:00:53,960 in assists well established Danish and international 13 00:00:53,970 --> 00:00:57,420 companies, as well as startups with a broad range of commercial 14 00:00:57,430 --> 00:01:00,940 issues, including advice on establishment, restructuring and 15 00:01:00,950 --> 00:01:03,230 so forth. Thank you so much for making the 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,720 time to be in the podcast today. Casper Well, thank you very much 17 00:01:06,730 --> 00:01:10,040 for for having me, Claudio. I really like your concept here 18 00:01:10,050 --> 00:01:12,700 and I'm very happy to be a part of this. 19 00:01:12,780 --> 00:01:14,680 Absolutely. And, and I'd love for you to 20 00:01:14,690 --> 00:01:17,300 introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more about your 21 00:01:17,310 --> 00:01:20,880 journey of becoming an attorney of the Danish High Courts and 22 00:01:20,890 --> 00:01:23,400 also an associate partner at your law firm. 23 00:01:23,470 --> 00:01:26,690 Well, definitely my. My name is Casper Lindholm Dam 24 00:01:26,750 --> 00:01:29,430 and yes, as you mentioned, I'm an associate partner. 25 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,270 Right now. I see myself as a as a 26 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,570 commercial lawyer with a an international mindset who helps 27 00:01:37,060 --> 00:01:40,980 client navigate complexity. It can be transaction wise, 28 00:01:40,990 --> 00:01:43,290 cross-border work or even disputes. 29 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:48,210 As far as my my journey, I would like to elaborate a bit on that 30 00:01:48,220 --> 00:01:51,650 because we have to go a bit back in time to understand why I 31 00:01:51,660 --> 00:01:55,800 ended up where where I am today, but also to understand that life 32 00:01:55,810 --> 00:01:59,950 and career doesn't necessarily come with a ready made formula. 33 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:02,170 For me. It was never really in the cards 34 00:02:02,220 --> 00:02:05,600 that that I would become an attorney for a lawyer someday. 35 00:02:05,650 --> 00:02:09,449 My family history is that my grandfathers letter factory 36 00:02:09,460 --> 00:02:13,230 workers, blue collar workers, my grandma was a cleaning lady on a 37 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,650 local ferry local school. I grew up in a working class 38 00:02:16,660 --> 00:02:19,410 family myself. Nobody had ever taken a 39 00:02:19,420 --> 00:02:21,950 university degree in my extended family. 40 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,290 Then by coincidence, at some point my granddad ended up 41 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:29,510 getting a job as a janitor in a larger apartment building in the 42 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,670 nicer parts of of the outskirts of Copenhagen. 43 00:02:32,780 --> 00:02:35,670 And then somehow he got a rental apartment from my parents. 44 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,030 That means that I I grew up being exposed to and becoming 45 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,350 friends with kids from many different backgrounds, but also 46 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,270 kids of lawyers, business owners, etcetera. 47 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,310 But at that point there was never any idea for me of 48 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,370 becoming a lawyer. Then high school came, my main 49 00:02:51,380 --> 00:02:54,150 focus, I was playing football, which we do a lot here in 50 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,870 Denmark. I played at a elite level and it 51 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,370 didn't prioritize school very much and I never really had a 52 00:03:00,380 --> 00:03:03,390 Plan B at that point. But basically I hope to become a 53 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,270 professional football player. Well, then reality hits. 54 00:03:06,340 --> 00:03:09,930 After high school, I tried a few different paths, including 55 00:03:09,940 --> 00:03:12,430 working for a family friend who was actually a bricklayer. 56 00:03:12,660 --> 00:03:16,050 But he was very quickly to say that I was not cut out for a 57 00:03:16,060 --> 00:03:19,810 manual labour then. Instead, he knew his wife who 58 00:03:19,820 --> 00:03:23,190 was a secretary in a law firm and she said that I could 59 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,190 probably get a job as an errand runner in this law firm. 60 00:03:26,260 --> 00:03:29,770 So this was my very random introduction to the legal 61 00:03:29,780 --> 00:03:32,130 profession. And to my own surprise, at that 62 00:03:32,140 --> 00:03:36,380 point, I absolutely loved the environment in a law firm, a lot 63 00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:40,450 of the people, the pace and the way the law interacts with real 64 00:03:40,460 --> 00:03:43,310 life and business. So after that, a few years 65 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,750 later, I found myself applying for law school. 66 00:03:45,890 --> 00:03:48,990 And during as my second year of law school, I received a call 67 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,220 from a newly founded business law firm in Copenhagen who 68 00:03:52,230 --> 00:03:55,570 needed a paralegal. And that's 13 years ago now. 69 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,650 And I'm still with the same law firm now called Scowl Raipur, 70 00:03:58,940 --> 00:04:01,450 where I have worked for 13 years. 71 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,330 And now taking the steps from a paralegal to now becoming an 72 00:04:05,340 --> 00:04:08,290 associate partner at that place. If you would like, I can 73 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:13,440 elaborate a bit on the journey from law school to to becoming 74 00:04:13,450 --> 00:04:15,980 an associate partner. Absolutely. 75 00:04:15,990 --> 00:04:18,089 I think that would be very interesting if you could just 76 00:04:18,100 --> 00:04:21,220 tell us a little bit about, you know, how many years does it 77 00:04:21,230 --> 00:04:22,780 take? How does law school work? 78 00:04:22,790 --> 00:04:26,160 Is it a, a bachelor's degree? How does that work in, in 79 00:04:26,170 --> 00:04:28,280 Denmark? And then your, your path to the 80 00:04:28,290 --> 00:04:29,580 firm. That would be great to learn. 81 00:04:30,170 --> 00:04:32,550 So in Denmark, I started at Coburn. 82 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,620 You're taking university. The the law school is a five 83 00:04:35,630 --> 00:04:38,480 year program. Oh, that's a it consists of 84 00:04:38,490 --> 00:04:41,160 three years becoming a bachelor's, kind of like an 85 00:04:41,170 --> 00:04:45,780 undergrad in the US or Canada maybe also, and then two years 86 00:04:45,930 --> 00:04:49,890 doing a masters program. So five years of studying law 87 00:04:49,950 --> 00:04:54,000 to, to get your law degree and then becoming a lawyer, you need 88 00:04:54,010 --> 00:04:58,440 a three years after law school at, at a law firm actually. 89 00:04:58,550 --> 00:05:01,670 So three years of training to becoming a lawyer. 90 00:05:01,780 --> 00:05:05,890 So, so basically it takes eight years to become a lawyer in in 91 00:05:05,900 --> 00:05:09,210 Denmark, Five years of school, three years of apprenticing. 92 00:05:09,220 --> 00:05:12,410 Very, very interesting and. Just your to. 93 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,390 Kind of explain the the terms and compare them here. 94 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,770 Here in Canada or I guess very comparatively in the US, usually 95 00:05:20,780 --> 00:05:25,820 you would become, you'll see it and then would become a partner. 96 00:05:25,870 --> 00:05:29,260 So is that the same kind of structure of of how it would go 97 00:05:29,270 --> 00:05:32,700 after being in like in this apprenticeship, you would then 98 00:05:32,710 --> 00:05:34,620 become an associate and then a partner. 99 00:05:34,630 --> 00:05:37,780 Is that the a similar? Outside yes, I would say it's a 100 00:05:37,790 --> 00:05:40,380 similar outset. You know, law firm is very, 101 00:05:40,390 --> 00:05:42,520 it's, it's normally very hierarchical. 102 00:05:42,530 --> 00:05:45,660 So yes, you become an attorney and associate. 103 00:05:45,790 --> 00:05:50,340 Then you, you start figuring out what yourself and the law firm, 104 00:05:50,350 --> 00:05:54,360 which path fits me, my personality, my, my future. 105 00:05:54,430 --> 00:05:57,150 And then there are some different paths, at least an 106 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,820 hour law firm. And that's also very normal in, 107 00:05:59,830 --> 00:06:02,220 in Copenhagen. You can choose different paths 108 00:06:02,530 --> 00:06:05,380 depending on what, what career you see for yourself. 109 00:06:05,430 --> 00:06:09,540 But the first many years as an attorney, it's basically still 110 00:06:09,550 --> 00:06:12,060 focusing on working as an attorney, learning. 111 00:06:12,110 --> 00:06:16,340 And then gradually you will find your, your own way based on your 112 00:06:16,350 --> 00:06:19,160 experience, what you and what you prefer. 113 00:06:19,270 --> 00:06:23,080 And then for, for, from my perspective, then at some point 114 00:06:23,090 --> 00:06:27,240 I found it interesting to see, OK, it can I pursue this more, 115 00:06:27,250 --> 00:06:30,860 try to build up my own portfolio, my own relationships. 116 00:06:30,930 --> 00:06:34,800 And that's the path that I'm on right now, trying to at some 117 00:06:34,810 --> 00:06:37,420 point become a partner at my law firm. 118 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,500 Amazing. If I may ask, what what drew you 119 00:06:40,510 --> 00:06:44,420 to focus specifically on, on commercial law, on, you know, 120 00:06:44,430 --> 00:06:48,620 contracts and maybe even what do you find most, most interesting 121 00:06:48,630 --> 00:06:50,640 in this specific area of practicing? 122 00:06:50,650 --> 00:06:55,700 Law so that's a that's also a good question because I would 123 00:06:55,710 --> 00:06:59,740 say in general, my my, I have a genuine interest in the rule of 124 00:06:59,750 --> 00:07:02,360 law itself. It's originally from law school. 125 00:07:02,370 --> 00:07:06,020 I, I like to have many different possibilities open because I 126 00:07:06,070 --> 00:07:08,900 basically I also like constitutional law as an example 127 00:07:08,910 --> 00:07:11,330 of something that's not relevant to what we do now. 128 00:07:11,370 --> 00:07:14,840 But then at some point, of course, you are shaped by the 129 00:07:14,850 --> 00:07:17,860 place you work, by the people you work with, by the cases you 130 00:07:17,870 --> 00:07:20,700 work on. And I found out that I really 131 00:07:20,710 --> 00:07:24,800 like this path that an eye on that I'm on right now, which is 132 00:07:25,060 --> 00:07:27,310 a lot of transactional work. M and a work. 133 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:31,630 And what I really like about snake transactional work is that 134 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,570 it's all based on a foundation that you know the law, that you 135 00:07:35,580 --> 00:07:38,810 are skilled in law. Then you have the foundation 2 136 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:40,710 after. Well, that's the drafting of the 137 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,930 contracts. But then there is the whole 138 00:07:42,940 --> 00:07:47,540 business aspect besides that part, which is more to go out 139 00:07:47,860 --> 00:07:51,270 negotiate on. Like many times it's commercial 140 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,450 negotiations more than law itself. 141 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,600 But you can also adjust the the in the in the contract. 142 00:07:57,610 --> 00:08:00,500 You can adjust the warranty catalogue. 143 00:08:00,510 --> 00:08:03,390 There are some different mechanisms that you can adjust 144 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,780 as a lawyer when you get really into the details of which I also 145 00:08:06,790 --> 00:08:09,220 like. So the M and A part it's, it's a 146 00:08:09,230 --> 00:08:13,230 very yeah, you get the best from both worlds. 147 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,150 I think you get the law, but you also get the commercial and the 148 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,250 negotiation. Part amazing. 149 00:08:18,260 --> 00:08:20,090 Well, thank you so much for sharing that. 150 00:08:20,140 --> 00:08:24,390 And I was very happy to learn when I was reading on your 151 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,110 firm's website a little bit about your profile and all of 152 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,340 that, that you do have some connections with cross-border 153 00:08:30,350 --> 00:08:33,990 transactions and specifically involving Latin Americans paying 154 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,950 and that that you speak Spanish yourself. 155 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,309 So I wanted to hear a little more about those insights on 156 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,980 cross-border transactions and even if there's any lessons that 157 00:08:42,990 --> 00:08:45,350 you have learned from working internationally. 158 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,070 Well, I would say there are many lessons to be learned from, from 159 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,550 dealing with cross-border transactions especially well in, 160 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,860 in Denmark, we do have a lot of connection to regional 161 00:08:58,470 --> 00:09:02,540 cross-border transactions because we're small country, we 162 00:09:02,550 --> 00:09:06,140 are depending on trade with the basically the whole whole world. 163 00:09:06,190 --> 00:09:09,980 So these past years I've done a lot of European or cross-border 164 00:09:09,990 --> 00:09:12,180 transactions. But also as you mentioned, I 165 00:09:12,190 --> 00:09:17,000 even had a connections with Latin America, also the US, 166 00:09:17,010 --> 00:09:21,360 Canada, I, I see that a lot and it's of course very dependent, 167 00:09:21,410 --> 00:09:23,360 dependent from country to country. 168 00:09:23,410 --> 00:09:27,240 Water challenge is you will see now you ask about Spain and 169 00:09:27,250 --> 00:09:29,560 Latin America. Basically, they have a 170 00:09:29,570 --> 00:09:33,460 completely different culture than we do in in Denmark, which 171 00:09:33,470 --> 00:09:38,050 also is reflected in their legal systems and in the way they 172 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:42,130 negotiate, in the way they draft contracts and the way what they 173 00:09:42,140 --> 00:09:45,070 expect. Basically, as a concrete example 174 00:09:45,140 --> 00:09:49,850 in an M and a context that could be, I recently had a Spanish 175 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,700 transaction where the Spanish Spire wanted to buy Danish 176 00:09:53,710 --> 00:09:57,670 company and they had completely different expectations on the 177 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:01,950 warranty catalog there. There they want warranties from 178 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,770 the seller of basically everything that the seller has 179 00:10:05,780 --> 00:10:09,630 to, to get warranties on, on, on, on everything. 180 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,420 Historically, that's in Danish context, that's not common. 181 00:10:12,430 --> 00:10:17,260 We have some very fix the warranties that you would give 182 00:10:17,270 --> 00:10:19,590 some teeth are fundamental warranties. 183 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,800 I own the company as an example. That would be a fundamental 184 00:10:22,810 --> 00:10:25,940 warranty that you cannot, you have to, to obey with. 185 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,390 Then you have a, you know, the, the, the other more customary 186 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,950 usual warranties that would last maybe 1 1/2 to two years In 187 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,750 Spain, they would expect they last 10 years, these warranties 188 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,010 and they would also expect that all warranties are fundamental. 189 00:10:42,020 --> 00:10:45,390 They're not any distinction between fundamental and normal 190 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,350 warranties. So, so that, that is just to say 191 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,230 that there are the level of trust in Denmark and in the 192 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,090 Nordics, we trust each other. So we have completely different 193 00:10:55,100 --> 00:10:58,750 setup and market standards for warranties and many other 194 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:03,110 aspects in a name and a deal. Whereas in Latin America, Spain, 195 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,970 these countries, they don't have the same, just to be frank, the 196 00:11:06,980 --> 00:11:10,870 same amount of trust with the partners that they work with and 197 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,300 they sell their businesses to invest example. 198 00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:17,860 So they expect a, a completely different warranty catalogue as 199 00:11:17,870 --> 00:11:21,580 a concrete example of how these cultures can flash. 200 00:11:21,650 --> 00:11:25,220 And then as the M and a lawyer and this deal, you really have 201 00:11:25,230 --> 00:11:29,220 to try to explain both parties, what are the market standards? 202 00:11:29,230 --> 00:11:31,160 Why are the market standards like this? 203 00:11:31,230 --> 00:11:33,660 And then you will have to try to bridge these different 204 00:11:33,670 --> 00:11:35,800 expectations. And that's where it's going to 205 00:11:35,850 --> 00:11:39,100 get really interesting as a lawyer, because then you need 206 00:11:39,110 --> 00:11:43,920 your your cultural knowledge and background to be able to bridge 207 00:11:43,930 --> 00:11:45,060 this. Fantastic. 208 00:11:45,070 --> 00:11:48,340 I appreciate that you brought this, this last point on because 209 00:11:48,410 --> 00:11:51,580 I, I found it interesting that beyond being a commercial lawyer 210 00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:55,150 and being involved in the, in the commercial aspect of Denny's 211 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,550 contracts and all of that, it seemed like litigation and 212 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,430 arbitration were also part of your practice. 213 00:12:01,490 --> 00:12:06,090 So I wanted to hear how do you, you know, balance that advisory 214 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:08,810 and transactional work with dispute resolution? 215 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,230 As you know, in a few other parts of the world, I feel like 216 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:13,730 we separate these roles. A. 217 00:12:13,740 --> 00:12:16,070 Little more. So I wanted to ask you, you 218 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,450 know, specifically in your case and also if it's common in 219 00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:23,270 Danish law culture for lawyers to to be acting both as 220 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,450 litigators or, or to be in this advisory role in, in sense of 221 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,330 arbitration as well as transactional lawyers? 222 00:12:30,460 --> 00:12:34,570 So I also asked myself, as I said, should I choose either or? 223 00:12:34,580 --> 00:12:38,200 And that's always an ongoing discussion as an attorney, as a 224 00:12:38,210 --> 00:12:41,860 lawyer, should I specialize even further in some areas? 225 00:12:41,870 --> 00:12:44,840 Should I be a generalist? Should I be in between? 226 00:12:45,010 --> 00:12:47,600 And right now where I am, I like that point. 227 00:12:47,610 --> 00:12:51,570 I, I would say I am an expert in both. 228 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:56,880 Of course, I could go even further on, on both tracks and 229 00:12:56,890 --> 00:13:01,030 becoming even better at, let's say MA transactions, even better 230 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,330 at understanding all everything about dispute resolution. 231 00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:07,510 But where I am right now, I can do both. 232 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,870 And if I have a specific question for an M and a deal, I 233 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:15,150 have very good colleagues, I can go and ask them what, how do we 234 00:13:15,220 --> 00:13:19,010 solve this specific issue? Usually, if that's would be the 235 00:13:19,020 --> 00:13:22,230 case. So I in, in, in our team, that's 236 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,490 my law firm I work at. We are covering each other for 237 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:30,430 these last parts. So that's why right now it works 238 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,650 very well. Then of course, you can have the 239 00:13:32,660 --> 00:13:37,080 issue of timelines that that's also an often the question I 240 00:13:37,090 --> 00:13:39,920 get. So M and A transactions are very 241 00:13:39,930 --> 00:13:42,770 high pace and can come from one day to another. 242 00:13:42,780 --> 00:13:45,020 You can get a call, hey, we have to start tomorrow. 243 00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:48,270 You have to get your calendar ready. 244 00:13:48,430 --> 00:13:51,980 But then again, let's say I have an ongoing court case. 245 00:13:52,270 --> 00:13:56,420 Those days I am still flexible in in having my colleagues who 246 00:13:56,430 --> 00:14:01,600 can assist to make all this work if that's the situation arises. 247 00:14:01,610 --> 00:14:04,960 Normally the good part about dispute resolution, you can plan 248 00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:07,600 a lot of around it. So that means if it's a less 249 00:14:07,610 --> 00:14:12,930 busy time of the year, then you can plan your dispute resolution 250 00:14:12,980 --> 00:14:16,530 draft and and that period, which is also beneficial as a lawyer 251 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,050 to always have worked for your. Fantastic, I appreciate it. 252 00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:24,160 And, and that's very interesting having the choice and in making 253 00:14:24,170 --> 00:14:27,090 that conscious choice. So very, very interesting. 254 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,330 I wanted to ask you a little more about, you know, your, your 255 00:14:30,340 --> 00:14:35,170 story and career as well. I saw that you did an LLM at UC 256 00:14:35,180 --> 00:14:38,780 Hastings in, in the US and I wanted to ask you how, how did 257 00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:41,550 that experience go? How was, you know, the, the 258 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,690 exposure to international business law? 259 00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:46,450 How did that influence your career, and what skills or 260 00:14:46,460 --> 00:14:49,630 knowledge from that experience have been most valuable? 261 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:54,400 To you, yes, that's LM. I will never regret that 262 00:14:54,410 --> 00:14:57,160 decision. There was a one of the best 263 00:14:57,170 --> 00:15:00,230 years of my life. So I can only encourage people 264 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,560 to, if you have any considerations to go study 265 00:15:03,570 --> 00:15:06,120 abroad, it will give you many benefits. 266 00:15:06,190 --> 00:15:09,660 And yes, what are these benefits that they come in in in many 267 00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:12,900 ways, both professionally, but also personally. 268 00:15:12,970 --> 00:15:16,480 That year is it's it's very good for you professionally. 269 00:15:16,490 --> 00:15:19,990 I am, I was studying in San Francisco, very nice law school. 270 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,920 I used to Hastings. It had some in very interesting 271 00:15:22,930 --> 00:15:26,340 classes that I would never be able to find back home. 272 00:15:26,410 --> 00:15:30,040 We had classes like leadership skills for lawyers, very 273 00:15:30,050 --> 00:15:34,560 specific venture capital startup classes, you know, from Silicon 274 00:15:34,570 --> 00:15:37,920 Valley. We had highly, well, highly 275 00:15:37,930 --> 00:15:41,080 skilled professors coming in about telling about negotiation 276 00:15:41,090 --> 00:15:44,740 skills so that there are many different ways and classes, 277 00:15:44,820 --> 00:15:47,850 courses that I could not find back home and which gave me 278 00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:51,010 professionally very much. Then you have the other side, 279 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,670 which I think is a very important side if you want to 280 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,190 become an international transactional lawyer or just 281 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,280 even cross-border international lawyer. 282 00:15:59,290 --> 00:16:04,610 At some point you build up relationships with in my, in my 283 00:16:04,670 --> 00:16:10,240 case, we had where 30 Bertie Elms in my year from coming from 284 00:16:10,250 --> 00:16:13,470 all over the world. That already makes you focus at 285 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,580 that point on, you know, learning new people from all 286 00:16:16,590 --> 00:16:18,310 over the world that different cultures. 287 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,070 They they come from. Some of them are still my very 288 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,160 close friends today in Brazil, like Republic of all over the 289 00:16:25,170 --> 00:16:28,010 world, Paraguay. So I still see them today, visit 290 00:16:28,020 --> 00:16:29,790 them. So I have a private relationship 291 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,750 with them. But also it's I also see now 292 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,810 that it's also beneficial the work wise, which should not be 293 00:16:35,820 --> 00:16:39,290 the plan itself back then, but that just comes automatically. 294 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:42,990 At some point you will see they also end up some of them in law 295 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,830 firms around the world and do cross-border transactions. 296 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,850 So there are many benefits from that. 297 00:16:48,860 --> 00:16:51,420 You have your personal development, this world that 298 00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:53,560 year, you get different perspectives. 299 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:56,580 I was working a lot, studying a lot, but back home, then you 300 00:16:56,590 --> 00:16:59,630 have that here, get everything that you can see everything from 301 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:01,500 the outside. You get a really good 302 00:17:01,510 --> 00:17:05,140 perspective on what do you actually want with your life, 303 00:17:05,150 --> 00:17:07,700 with your career. So when you come back and these 304 00:17:07,710 --> 00:17:10,760 in my case, I was very determined on I'm going to do 305 00:17:10,770 --> 00:17:13,420 this, this and this. But from now on, that would be 306 00:17:13,430 --> 00:17:18,579 harder to to make those like high level decisions when you're 307 00:17:18,589 --> 00:17:21,020 in the middle of everything with your work and with your law 308 00:17:21,030 --> 00:17:23,760 school back home. So it gives you time to reflect 309 00:17:23,770 --> 00:17:24,880 as well. Amazing. 310 00:17:24,890 --> 00:17:28,170 And you you're telling us a little bit about your story in 311 00:17:28,180 --> 00:17:32,410 the beginning of this podcast. It must have been quite, you 312 00:17:32,420 --> 00:17:35,960 know, a family accomplishment, right for you to be doing an 313 00:17:35,970 --> 00:17:39,440 alarm in the US getting even more specialized in law after, 314 00:17:39,570 --> 00:17:43,080 you know, being a lawyer itself not being what plan that you had 315 00:17:43,090 --> 00:17:45,840 for for your whole life. So I really love hearing that. 316 00:17:45,890 --> 00:17:50,760 Yeah, exactly. Life takes you ways that you 317 00:17:50,770 --> 00:17:54,420 would never expect, and that has been the case in my example. 318 00:17:54,810 --> 00:17:58,680 At least amazing and looking at you know, the the corporate 319 00:17:58,690 --> 00:18:01,460 work, the trends that you might see in they are commercial 320 00:18:01,470 --> 00:18:03,940 contracts. What are some changes or 321 00:18:03,950 --> 00:18:07,250 developments that you see impacting lawyers over the the 322 00:18:07,260 --> 00:18:10,900 next few years from where you are right now in the world? 323 00:18:10,910 --> 00:18:15,160 Yes, I, I see the, the, the, I see the different trend right 324 00:18:15,170 --> 00:18:19,230 now from our own clients that these years, I guess it's a 325 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,390 trend all over the world. But our clients now, they send 326 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,960 us, they, they ask the questions themselves first to the AI 327 00:18:28,180 --> 00:18:32,230 module and they sent this draft that they got from the AI. 328 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,140 You know, we see that a lot. And then we have to, to go 329 00:18:36,150 --> 00:18:40,740 through that, that document that that AI has made. 330 00:18:40,790 --> 00:18:45,480 And it's from what I see so far, it's not, it's not working. 331 00:18:45,550 --> 00:18:49,260 But of course, at some point this will start working and then 332 00:18:49,270 --> 00:18:54,400 we have to be implementing this even even more. 333 00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:58,520 But I am I as a lawyer and my generation right now, I do have 334 00:18:58,530 --> 00:19:02,300 a general respect for the challenges that the new 335 00:19:02,310 --> 00:19:04,470 generation generation will have with this. 336 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,480 I imagine that law schools right now, even in the beginning of 337 00:19:08,490 --> 00:19:12,380 your career as a lawyer, you do not necessarily have the full 338 00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:15,940 foundation, the full legal from the legal method. 339 00:19:15,950 --> 00:19:20,520 You don't have that 100% figure it out yet, to be honest, when 340 00:19:20,530 --> 00:19:23,580 you're at law school or when you're on your early years of 341 00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:26,760 your career. So I have a concern in that 342 00:19:26,770 --> 00:19:30,040 sense that, that the law, well, the law schools really have to 343 00:19:30,050 --> 00:19:34,780 integrate this AI and the learning of the risk related to, 344 00:19:34,790 --> 00:19:38,890 to, to implement that in law schools to implement strong 345 00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:44,480 guidelines and how you how you also use this in practice and 346 00:19:44,570 --> 00:19:49,520 how you prompt your questions to the AI learning machine. 347 00:19:49,710 --> 00:19:52,970 So, Casper, to finish our podcast today, I wanted to ask 348 00:19:52,980 --> 00:19:57,040 you what advice would you give to young lawyers or younger 349 00:19:57,050 --> 00:20:00,390 lawyers who are starting their careers, especially those who 350 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,080 are specifically interested in a commercial? 351 00:20:03,190 --> 00:20:08,330 International Practice. Well, let me let me give you 3 352 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,290 concrete advice in, in this regard. 353 00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:14,590 I, I would say if you're interested in the international 354 00:20:14,650 --> 00:20:17,970 practice just already start now thinking about it. 355 00:20:17,980 --> 00:20:21,280 Seek exposure abroad. As I mentioned, it can be 356 00:20:21,290 --> 00:20:24,930 through your studies, it can be through your works, it can be 357 00:20:24,940 --> 00:20:28,570 through networks, building up relationships with like minded 358 00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:30,730 around the world. That's good to start. 359 00:20:30,740 --> 00:20:34,940 Now then I would say as a #2 invest in your future is what I 360 00:20:34,950 --> 00:20:39,150 normally tell my younger associates spent by that I mean 361 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,930 time is, is is an asset. So invest your time already now 362 00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:48,920 as a student that can be at your at the law school, spend that 363 00:20:48,930 --> 00:20:51,820 extra hour to make a really nice product. 364 00:20:51,870 --> 00:20:55,420 If you already work, spend that extra hour as well to get that 365 00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:59,430 interesting case, to be a part of that interesting case and 366 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,510 spend those extra hours to understand the case that you 367 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,570 will get. Because when you spend these 368 00:21:05,580 --> 00:21:07,850 extra hours, you will invest in your future. 369 00:21:07,860 --> 00:21:12,070 And that in the long run will give you more interesting cases. 370 00:21:12,220 --> 00:21:16,650 You will be a part of the, yeah, the interesting casing as I, as 371 00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:18,750 I mentioned. But it can also be spend that 372 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,250 extra hour doing a social activity with somebody. 373 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,790 So it doesn't only have to be professionally in that sense. 374 00:21:25,980 --> 00:21:28,710 It can just go out. You can go one-on-one with a 375 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,970 good relation or build up a new relation with someone. 376 00:21:30,980 --> 00:21:33,650 You can go out in groups. But basically just already be 377 00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:37,850 aware now that it's very good for, for your future as an 378 00:21:37,860 --> 00:21:41,720 attorney, as a lawyer to start building up relationships early. 379 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,270 The earlier the better and keep those relationships, keep them 380 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,540 warm throughout the years. That's also very important. 381 00:21:48,590 --> 00:21:52,300 And three is the last advice. Never be afraid of asking 382 00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:54,980 questions. I think this is also why I'm a 383 00:21:54,990 --> 00:21:58,040 part of this right now. And most people will be very 384 00:21:58,050 --> 00:22:02,010 interested in giving back to to the younger generations with 385 00:22:02,020 --> 00:22:04,280 their own advice. So just never be afraid of 386 00:22:04,290 --> 00:22:07,410 asking people to offer advice. And then also, if you have some 387 00:22:07,420 --> 00:22:11,230 specific people you're inspired by, you know, study them, what 388 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,620 do they do? And also reach out to them and 389 00:22:13,630 --> 00:22:17,420 just always seek knowledge. And that would be my free advice 390 00:22:17,470 --> 00:22:19,140 to to end and wrap. Up. 391 00:22:19,150 --> 00:22:21,300 Amazing. Thank you so much once again for 392 00:22:21,310 --> 00:22:23,860 being in the podcast today, Catherine, and thank you all for 393 00:22:23,870 --> 00:22:26,160 listening to today's episode. Thank you, Claudio.