1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,890 Welcome to studying law Around the world. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions. 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,009 That shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to 8 00:00:32,020 --> 00:00:32,790 study. Abroad. 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:34,390 Thinking about working in another. 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,950 Legal system or just curious about how law works around the 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:39,990 world? This podcast is for. 12 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,580 You. This episode of Studying Around 13 00:00:44,590 --> 00:00:48,810 the World is proudly sponsored by ITL Prep from Emond Exam 14 00:00:48,820 --> 00:00:52,540 Prep, the comprehensive resource designed specifically for 15 00:00:52,550 --> 00:00:56,070 internationally trained lawyers preparing for DMCA exams. 16 00:00:56,140 --> 00:00:59,370 We understand that the NCA accreditation journey can feel 17 00:00:59,380 --> 00:01:01,840 overwhelming. You can face many obstacles 18 00:01:01,850 --> 00:01:06,030 getting to success, courses that cost too much, offer too little, 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,750 or leave you more confused than when you started. 20 00:01:08,820 --> 00:01:12,730 That's why Inland Exam Prep created ITIL Prep as martyr, 21 00:01:12,780 --> 00:01:16,110 more reliable way to succeed. 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That's Edmond, and use promo 39 00:02:18,020 --> 00:02:23,350 code ITL 50 to claim your 50% discount on NCA exam preparation 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:29,790 courses. Today I have the opportunity to 41 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,890 interview Billy Resting. He has a super cool career in 42 00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:38,290 lots of big tech companies in house, including Microsoft as 43 00:02:38,300 --> 00:02:41,950 well as GitHub. And now he's also has his own 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,290 business where he teaches lawyers how to become inhouse 45 00:02:45,300 --> 00:02:47,260 lawyers. So thank you so much for taking 46 00:02:47,270 --> 00:02:49,170 the time to being in the podcast today, Billy. 47 00:02:49,260 --> 00:02:51,470 Yeah, thanks for having me. Claudio absolutely. 48 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,300 And to start over our conversation today, I'd love for 49 00:02:54,310 --> 00:02:57,270 you to start by introducing yourself to your our audience. 50 00:02:57,340 --> 00:02:59,590 Yeah, sure. So as you said, I'm Billy 51 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,530 Rustin. I've been a lawyer for about 52 00:03:02,700 --> 00:03:05,210 graduated in 2009. So I think that's my math is 53 00:03:05,220 --> 00:03:07,850 correct. That's about 15 years is a long 54 00:03:07,860 --> 00:03:10,610 time. I graduated high school in 09, 55 00:03:10,620 --> 00:03:14,070 like I said, and that was the start of the great Great 56 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,710 Recession. I noticed my last year at the 57 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,250 start of my last year of law school, all my classmates were 58 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,890 getting offers were sanded and or deferred and they weren't 59 00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:25,810 going to the jobs and the firms that they wanted to go to. 60 00:03:25,820 --> 00:03:29,170 So I ended up, so I ended up taking a job at an insurance law 61 00:03:29,180 --> 00:03:30,610 firm doing insurance coverage work. 62 00:03:30,660 --> 00:03:34,030 And I eventually, you know, took another job in another firm 63 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,520 doing insurance related work. And at some point I realized, 64 00:03:36,530 --> 00:03:39,690 hey, I don't want to do this for the rest of my legal career. 65 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:42,760 And that kicked me off on this journey to where I am today, 66 00:03:42,770 --> 00:03:46,700 where I didn't really understand how applying for in-house 67 00:03:46,710 --> 00:03:48,800 worked. And you know, it turns out it's 68 00:03:48,810 --> 00:03:50,470 pretty hard when you do insurance. 69 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,430 And in my second firm was doing insurance and asbestos 70 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,400 litigation. And you know, it turns out 71 00:03:55,460 --> 00:03:57,780 insurance and asbestos litigation, there's not a lot of 72 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,610 jobs in house for lawyers who specialize in those. 73 00:04:00,620 --> 00:04:03,650 So what? So I had to learn over time. 74 00:04:03,660 --> 00:04:05,650 It took me about a year and a half to find my way in house, 75 00:04:05,660 --> 00:04:08,690 but I had to learn a bunch of tips and tricks and, you know, 76 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:12,650 skills and strategies to get my resume seen because I initially 77 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:14,850 started off just applying for jobs. 78 00:04:14,900 --> 00:04:19,490 And over the years I started. So I started my career in house 79 00:04:19,550 --> 00:04:23,110 doing as actually contracts manager and then I worked my way 80 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,000 up to doing commercial contracting. 81 00:04:25,010 --> 00:04:27,940 And then I moved, as you said, to Microsoft, where I was 82 00:04:27,950 --> 00:04:31,910 actually at a small startup in 20, I think it was 20. 83 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,080 So I started like 2015 and Microsoft ended up acquiring 84 00:04:35,090 --> 00:04:36,850 that company. And so that's how I got into 85 00:04:36,860 --> 00:04:40,100 Microsoft. And then I threw just sheer 86 00:04:40,110 --> 00:04:41,820 luck. I became a product counsel. 87 00:04:41,870 --> 00:04:44,900 And then then I moved over to GitHub, which Microsoft acquired 88 00:04:44,910 --> 00:04:47,160 later. And then I moved to Databricks 89 00:04:47,170 --> 00:04:50,400 after Microsoft. And so anyway, so now I do 90 00:04:50,410 --> 00:04:53,760 partnerships for them as well. And you know, it's given me a, 91 00:04:53,810 --> 00:04:56,860 over the years of my, and I've done coaching the entire time 92 00:04:56,870 --> 00:04:59,940 pretty much. And the thing that I have seen 93 00:04:59,950 --> 00:05:02,680 with this wide array of experiences, you know, all that 94 00:05:02,830 --> 00:05:05,760 every, I've seen all sides of the business of law and what it 95 00:05:05,770 --> 00:05:08,500 takes to get in house. And so it's giving me a a good 96 00:05:08,510 --> 00:05:10,640 perspective to help others which I enjoy. 97 00:05:10,650 --> 00:05:12,970 Amazing. I love that you mentioned a 98 00:05:12,980 --> 00:05:16,030 little bit more about your background and how you got into 99 00:05:16,460 --> 00:05:19,720 the positions that you got you. Because I feel like as somebody 100 00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:22,570 who's starting my legal career right now, and it's the 101 00:05:22,580 --> 00:05:25,510 situation that I see with my colleagues as well, that we get 102 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,870 a little bit concerned about our first job. 103 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,570 It seems like, you know, if you don't get that big law job on 104 00:05:31,580 --> 00:05:34,850 the first year, it really will limit your possibilities 105 00:05:34,860 --> 00:05:37,330 afterwards. But honestly, time and time 106 00:05:37,340 --> 00:05:40,520 again, the more people coming to the podcast and share their 107 00:05:40,530 --> 00:05:43,510 stories, the more I really realized that there is 108 00:05:43,580 --> 00:05:47,580 definitely lots of ways to to steer your career into the 109 00:05:47,590 --> 00:05:50,410 direction you want. And it's awesome to to get to 110 00:05:50,420 --> 00:05:53,020 hear from you today here. Yeah, of course, you know, 111 00:05:53,030 --> 00:05:55,590 there's no, there's no one-size-fits-all approach to 112 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,070 finding your, your ideal legal career. 113 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,750 And as long as you have some some pluckiness and stick to it 114 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,220 in this and you have a little bit of thick skin and can take 115 00:06:04,230 --> 00:06:06,660 some rejection, I think most people can get to what they want 116 00:06:06,670 --> 00:06:07,830 to do. Amazing. 117 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,230 And if I may ask then you've been doing this for for quite a 118 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,950 while now. Was there a specific point where 119 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,730 you realized you didn't want to be quote UN quote, just a 120 00:06:16,740 --> 00:06:20,130 lawyer, but you also wanted to help other lawyers to getting 121 00:06:20,140 --> 00:06:22,610 housed? Yeah, so this is a this is a 122 00:06:22,620 --> 00:06:24,250 story actually that goes way back in time. 123 00:06:24,260 --> 00:06:28,430 So I'm the oldest of four boys. And when I was when I was in 124 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,120 high school, my mom signed me up to coach my youngest, my 125 00:06:32,130 --> 00:06:33,710 youngest brothers basketball team. 126 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,410 And it turned out I really enjoyed coaching. 127 00:06:36,420 --> 00:06:38,270 It was fun. And, you know, there was a 128 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:42,070 strategy aspect that there was also an aspect of teaching these 129 00:06:42,130 --> 00:06:45,450 7th and 8th graders how to play basketball, right? 130 00:06:45,510 --> 00:06:48,660 And I started that kicked off this journey, this parallel 131 00:06:48,670 --> 00:06:52,520 journey where when I was an undergrad and when I was even 132 00:06:52,530 --> 00:06:55,320 after a school and now that I have kids, I've always kind of 133 00:06:55,330 --> 00:06:58,420 coached, you know, I've coached basketball for the most part, 134 00:06:58,430 --> 00:07:00,720 and I've done some other, I've done some other stuff like track 135 00:07:00,730 --> 00:07:03,080 and field, but you know, mostly basketball. 136 00:07:03,090 --> 00:07:05,380 And then now, you know, I coach baseball for my kids. 137 00:07:05,390 --> 00:07:09,170 But I've always, I've always just gotten hooked on, you know, 138 00:07:09,180 --> 00:07:13,000 helping someone connect the dots and gain confidence in something 139 00:07:13,010 --> 00:07:14,980 new. Because I always, I always come 140 00:07:14,990 --> 00:07:17,440 out of from the perspective of someone who is always good in 141 00:07:17,450 --> 00:07:19,300 sports. But I needed someone to really 142 00:07:19,310 --> 00:07:22,420 hold my hand and explain to me like, you know, why you do this 143 00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:24,480 particular thing. And so, you know, that scene 144 00:07:24,490 --> 00:07:27,830 instinct carried over into my legal career and as a result of 145 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,330 my coaching experience. So I, I, when I found my first 146 00:07:31,340 --> 00:07:34,630 in-house job, I remember I had some lost school classmates who 147 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,670 said, Hey, that's amazing that you did this. 148 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,310 How do you do, how did you do it? 149 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,130 Can you talk to me about it? And after like the second or 150 00:07:41,140 --> 00:07:44,070 third person told me, and then I had a, I have a friend who's a 151 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,870 legal recruiter and he said to me, Hey, I have some friends or 152 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,630 I have some, some, some lawyers who are submitting applications 153 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,550 to become for me to recruit for them. 154 00:07:53,620 --> 00:07:56,450 And I can't place them because they don't, you know, they're 155 00:07:56,460 --> 00:07:59,680 like, they have my experience, which was insurance or asbestos 156 00:07:59,690 --> 00:08:02,630 or family law or something that wasn't like traditional, 157 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,040 traditional in-house law. And so he said, Hey, you should 158 00:08:05,050 --> 00:08:06,790 also like, think of coaching these people. 159 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,360 And so that really like kicked off my, my coaching career, 160 00:08:10,370 --> 00:08:13,280 which which I realized, you know, there's like very little 161 00:08:13,290 --> 00:08:15,450 practical guidance to go in, in house. 162 00:08:15,460 --> 00:08:17,840 You know, lawyers aren't lawyers, in my experience, 163 00:08:17,850 --> 00:08:19,460 aren't great about information sharing. 164 00:08:19,550 --> 00:08:22,010 You know, I think it's a profession where we, we tend, we 165 00:08:22,020 --> 00:08:24,220 like to talk a good game about sharing information, but we tend 166 00:08:24,230 --> 00:08:26,440 to actually hoard information because, you know, that's how 167 00:08:26,450 --> 00:08:28,650 you make partner, right, Is by like hoarding your clients. 168 00:08:28,660 --> 00:08:31,930 And it's like you go to law school and you wanna, you know, 169 00:08:31,940 --> 00:08:34,700 you want to be the top of your class and there's not really, 170 00:08:34,830 --> 00:08:36,679 you may have a study group or something, but there's not 171 00:08:36,690 --> 00:08:38,890 really an incentive to help others when you're, when you're 172 00:08:38,900 --> 00:08:40,620 in law school, at least in my observations. 173 00:08:40,669 --> 00:08:43,700 And so, yeah. So anyway, so I just, it's just 174 00:08:43,710 --> 00:08:48,320 a natural progression from my, from my coaching career to now 175 00:08:48,330 --> 00:08:51,260 helping lawyers go in house because it's, I enjoy helping 176 00:08:51,270 --> 00:08:53,300 people. I like seeing the success and it 177 00:08:53,310 --> 00:08:57,090 really jazzes me up when I see people, you know, make like the, 178 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,730 you know, you see the light bulb, like the, the proverbial 179 00:08:59,740 --> 00:09:01,650 light bulb flicker in there in their mind. 180 00:09:01,660 --> 00:09:04,050 When, when they believe, they finally believe that, that 181 00:09:04,060 --> 00:09:05,400 they've, they've had a hard time. 182 00:09:05,410 --> 00:09:07,330 They come to me. And then all of a sudden they've 183 00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:11,050 now found a, you know, they've gotten their first interview or 184 00:09:11,060 --> 00:09:13,390 like they have made it to the, the offer rather, they've got an 185 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,030 offer. So those are the cool things for 186 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,580 me to see, But I just really enjoy helping other lawyers 187 00:09:17,590 --> 00:09:20,120 navigate this path that no one really teaches you to take. 188 00:09:20,130 --> 00:09:23,560 That's awesome. And I see that you might work 189 00:09:23,570 --> 00:09:26,360 with some lawyers who really don't check those traditional 190 00:09:26,370 --> 00:09:30,430 boxes of or you got to do XYZ or you got to start your career 191 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,530 doing this. And I think there is, it's 192 00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:35,690 always interesting to see, you know, what most people get wrong 193 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:38,440 and, and what they, you know, might be doing wrong with their 194 00:09:38,450 --> 00:09:40,420 resume. Or even if you're a student 195 00:09:40,430 --> 00:09:43,680 getting out of school and you do have a few options, which one is 196 00:09:43,690 --> 00:09:46,400 best? But from your observations, what 197 00:09:46,410 --> 00:09:50,260 are some things that that people get actually right and that 198 00:09:50,270 --> 00:09:53,240 usually surprises? You yeah, I, I think that the 199 00:09:53,250 --> 00:09:56,840 biggest issue or biggest thing that I'm always surprised by is 200 00:09:57,650 --> 00:10:01,920 I don't think that, you know, if you're not fancy law school, big 201 00:10:01,930 --> 00:10:05,640 law pedigree, those are my observations don't really matter 202 00:10:05,650 --> 00:10:07,820 much. Really the primary key for 203 00:10:07,830 --> 00:10:10,460 anybody, whether you're you went to a fancy law school or you 204 00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:13,800 have a big law pedigree, is you need a willingness to learn. 205 00:10:13,850 --> 00:10:16,060 You know, it's very, it's the, it's the attorney. 206 00:10:16,070 --> 00:10:19,350 So I constantly observe who are curious and it's not they're 207 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:20,640 they're they ask questions, right? 208 00:10:20,650 --> 00:10:23,670 They're not afraid. Law law school again, to not to 209 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:25,600 not to dump on law school during this podcast. 210 00:10:25,610 --> 00:10:28,240 But you know, law school is like teachers would be the Socratic 211 00:10:28,250 --> 00:10:31,920 method and they ask you hypotheticals and you know, 212 00:10:31,930 --> 00:10:35,110 there's sort of this like when you don't, when you don't answer 213 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,940 the question or you don't know the question, there's sort of 214 00:10:37,950 --> 00:10:40,480 this underlying current of, you know, Hey, you failed, you 215 00:10:40,490 --> 00:10:42,700 didn't know the answer to this, this question. 216 00:10:42,710 --> 00:10:45,580 And I think that's that teaches you the wrong mentality because 217 00:10:45,590 --> 00:10:48,000 it teaches you like a fear of failure because you have this 218 00:10:48,010 --> 00:10:49,990 like, oh, shoot moment when you're called out early. 219 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:51,940 So I did when I was in law school, you know, you're like, 220 00:10:51,950 --> 00:10:54,380 Oh my gosh, I just got called on like what I and then you start 221 00:10:54,390 --> 00:10:56,600 panicking. And so I think it's really like, 222 00:10:56,610 --> 00:10:58,910 it's the it's the attorneys who are able to kind of like ditch 223 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,560 that, that like, I need to know everything mentality. 224 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,580 And we're curious. I'm like, hey, I don't 225 00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:05,460 understand this issue. Will you explain it to me? 226 00:11:05,550 --> 00:11:08,200 And I think when you go in house, you know that the 227 00:11:08,270 --> 00:11:11,540 restraints on your time are a lot different because you're not 228 00:11:11,550 --> 00:11:13,400 under the crush of the billable hour. 229 00:11:13,470 --> 00:11:15,950 And so whether you're working with sales people or engineers 230 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,200 or senior lawyers, you know, people will take time to explain 231 00:11:18,210 --> 00:11:19,580 things to you if you don't understand. 232 00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:22,740 But you got to ask and you got to be willing to learn and roll 233 00:11:22,750 --> 00:11:25,130 up your sleeves and think about it a little bit because, you 234 00:11:25,140 --> 00:11:27,480 know, the more repetitions and the more curious you are, the 235 00:11:27,490 --> 00:11:30,460 better, the better you are. And anyway, that's a skill that 236 00:11:30,470 --> 00:11:33,260 I think just transcends where you went to law school, what 237 00:11:33,270 --> 00:11:35,600 firm you worked at. And you can learn that skill 238 00:11:35,610 --> 00:11:37,550 along the way too. But that is what I think makes 239 00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:39,740 you become a really great in-house lawyer. 240 00:11:39,810 --> 00:11:42,580 That's amazing. I was thinking here of like, 241 00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:45,420 what would be something or, or some story that maybe you could, 242 00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:49,690 how is that could be something that our listeners could really 243 00:11:49,700 --> 00:11:51,850 relate to you. And I'm wondering if there was a 244 00:11:51,860 --> 00:11:55,130 time when maybe a client surprised you in some way. 245 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:58,360 Maybe it could be, you know, somebody who didn't have much of 246 00:11:58,370 --> 00:12:02,490 that self-confidence of going to and, and in-house role, but 247 00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:05,990 really want ensuring the long term and, and they ended up, you 248 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,490 know, lending that job maybe more easy than they thought. 249 00:12:09,540 --> 00:12:12,000 I'm wondering if there is any success story like that you 250 00:12:12,010 --> 00:12:13,370 could share with us? Yeah. 251 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:19,690 So you know, this story is I had a student come to me awhile back 252 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,990 who actually had great, he had great experience. 253 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,990 He had been in house for many years. 254 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:26,810 He had to. I don't, I'm forgetting the 255 00:12:26,820 --> 00:12:29,080 exact specifics, whether he was general counsel at one point. 256 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,700 What point is he had, he had a great, great career, a great 257 00:12:31,710 --> 00:12:34,890 experience. And he, something happened where 258 00:12:34,900 --> 00:12:38,300 he wasn't in his current job and he had spent many months, you 259 00:12:38,310 --> 00:12:41,800 know, he felt like he was out in the wilderness and he was not 260 00:12:41,810 --> 00:12:45,920 having any luck getting anybody to, to interview him. 261 00:12:45,930 --> 00:12:48,250 Or when he did get interviews, they, he thought they went well, 262 00:12:48,260 --> 00:12:51,400 but they didn't go anywhere. And he just wasn't having any 263 00:12:51,410 --> 00:12:53,380 luck finding, finding his next job. 264 00:12:53,390 --> 00:12:57,070 And you would think on paper, I always tell my students that the 265 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,360 hardest in-house job to get is your first in-house job because 266 00:13:00,370 --> 00:13:03,160 the jobs are not very plentiful. And there's a lot of in-house 267 00:13:03,170 --> 00:13:04,740 lawyers who are competing for those jobs. 268 00:13:04,850 --> 00:13:06,800 And in this case, it was totally the opposite. 269 00:13:06,810 --> 00:13:09,600 You know, this person had a great resume and it just seemed 270 00:13:09,610 --> 00:13:12,100 like they were just not having any luck, even though they had 271 00:13:12,110 --> 00:13:14,390 great in-house experience. But really, you know, this was 272 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,510 where I, and we'll talk about this a little later, I'm sure 273 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:18,980 too. But, you know, I think I felt 274 00:13:18,990 --> 00:13:20,380 like he was just really psyching himself out. 275 00:13:20,390 --> 00:13:22,530 There wasn't much that I could tell him. 276 00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:25,110 It was more I felt like I became, even though I'm not 277 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,430 trained as a psychologist, I feel like I was more just a like 278 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,930 a, you know, kind of like, I don't mean this is like a, a 279 00:13:31,940 --> 00:13:34,510 negative way, but I was just kind of like a shoulder to lean 280 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,350 on another voice to like a voice and encouragement for him. 281 00:13:37,410 --> 00:13:40,570 And, you know, I just told him, I said, Hey, this is sometimes 282 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,290 you, for whatever reason, you, you might, you might provide an 283 00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:45,800 answer to an interviewer's question. 284 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,910 You don't know what the interviewer has been through. 285 00:13:48,060 --> 00:13:50,290 You know, they might, you might have said something that just 286 00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:52,710 like, that's a, that's a red line for them, right? 287 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,470 And it might be the most innocuous thing like, you know, 288 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,690 and you just you have no idea. So, you know, the odds are, you 289 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:01,440 know, the the more I so I kept encouraging them, hey, you got 290 00:14:01,450 --> 00:14:03,220 to put yourself out there. The more you interview, your 291 00:14:03,230 --> 00:14:04,460 eventually going to find one of these. 292 00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:06,590 You have great experience. And so I really just found 293 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,390 myself, you know, so it was surprising because I wanted and 294 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,200 finally I got him believing that it was, it was he could do it. 295 00:14:13,650 --> 00:14:15,060 And you know, I'm happy to report. 296 00:14:15,070 --> 00:14:18,660 I think a couple of months ago he started a started an in house 297 00:14:18,670 --> 00:14:20,320 drive and loves it. So it's great. 298 00:14:20,330 --> 00:14:23,640 But yeah, it's you know, it's your, your equal parts, you 299 00:14:23,650 --> 00:14:25,180 know, your, your equal parts coach. 300 00:14:25,190 --> 00:14:28,060 And sometimes you just have to it's not even really coaching. 301 00:14:28,070 --> 00:14:30,700 It's just like giving them a voice of encouragement, just 302 00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:32,880 like in this situation. Solutely. 303 00:14:32,890 --> 00:14:35,860 That's awesome. If I were to ask you as well, is 304 00:14:35,870 --> 00:14:39,740 there one small mistake that you see repeatedly that, you know, 305 00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:42,550 lawyers will be making it over and over again? 306 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,930 Maybe something that quite often you have to kind of go over with 307 00:14:45,940 --> 00:14:49,750 or and that could be, you know, either in the resume interviews 308 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,700 or even in the way that they go about applying for things. 309 00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:54,960 Like Claudio, we could talk about, we could spend a whole 310 00:14:54,970 --> 00:14:58,070 interview talking about this. So you know, my, I wrote down, I 311 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,390 wrote down a couple of thoughts that that I've noticed. 312 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,410 And so I do a lot of rest to me reviews. 313 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,910 So resumes, especially legal resumes, they suffer from what I 314 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,410 call a sea of sameness. So most lawyers, they fill their 315 00:15:10,420 --> 00:15:14,470 resumes with a bunch of buzzwords, things like a draft, 316 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,050 negotiate, redline, streamline, you know, all these things that 317 00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:21,130 don't, all these things that they mean something to a lawyer, 318 00:15:21,140 --> 00:15:23,640 but they don't really tell the story of what he did. 319 00:15:23,650 --> 00:15:27,480 And So what I try to, what I tried to tell lawyers is when 320 00:15:27,490 --> 00:15:29,930 you're like, the example I always give is if you're 321 00:15:29,940 --> 00:15:33,450 applying for a commercial legal role, you're going to negotiate 322 00:15:33,460 --> 00:15:35,440 commercial contracts. Or if you're going to negotiate 323 00:15:35,450 --> 00:15:37,600 procurement vendor contracts, it's the same thing. 324 00:15:37,650 --> 00:15:41,200 Your first bullet should describe the types of agreements 325 00:15:41,210 --> 00:15:44,580 that you've negotiated. And it should be because the 326 00:15:44,590 --> 00:15:46,750 assumption if you're applying for the job is that you know how 327 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,480 to negotiate. But if you bury it on your third 328 00:15:49,490 --> 00:15:51,770 or fourth bullet, most people are going to assume that your 329 00:15:51,780 --> 00:15:53,950 first bullet is the most important thing that you've 330 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,980 worked on. So I think that's one, that's 331 00:15:55,990 --> 00:15:57,900 one critical point that a lot of people miss. 332 00:15:57,990 --> 00:16:01,240 The second critical point is this is particularly for law 333 00:16:01,250 --> 00:16:04,300 firm lawyers is law firm lawyers write their resume and there's, 334 00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:06,770 this is no fault of their own. They don't think about it is 335 00:16:06,820 --> 00:16:09,710 they write their resume like when they're applying for an in 336 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,920 house job is if another law firm lawyer is going to be reading 337 00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:15,840 the resume and it just doesn't speak the language of the 338 00:16:15,850 --> 00:16:18,390 in-house lawyer. So these lawyers, oftentimes I, 339 00:16:18,660 --> 00:16:21,990 I advise them to take a look at job descriptions in house job 340 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,770 descriptions and start thinking about what kind of words are 341 00:16:25,780 --> 00:16:28,470 used, what words and phrases are used in those job descriptions, 342 00:16:28,540 --> 00:16:31,010 because those could be helpful road map for you how to describe 343 00:16:31,020 --> 00:16:33,570 your experience on your resume. And in today's day and age with, 344 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:38,610 you know, ChatGPT and Claude, you can, you can just take a 345 00:16:38,620 --> 00:16:41,250 couple of those job descriptions, post them into 346 00:16:41,300 --> 00:16:43,830 ChatGPT. And you can also put your resume 347 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,830 in there and say, you know, something like map by, you know, 348 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,630 map my experience using the, you know, buzzwords found in these, 349 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,020 you know, three job descriptions. 350 00:16:52,090 --> 00:16:55,900 And that will go a long way towards towards improving your 351 00:16:55,910 --> 00:16:57,690 resume. No, that's amazing. 352 00:16:57,700 --> 00:17:00,510 Quite a good tip that I feel like everybody could benefit 353 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,930 from, maybe not even only people wanting to go into the new 354 00:17:03,940 --> 00:17:07,440 space, but really trying to, you know, stand out a little more in 355 00:17:07,450 --> 00:17:10,230 the in the job market. And I'm also curious to know 356 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:15,130 about, you know, once one of your clients gets a job, do you 357 00:17:15,140 --> 00:17:18,369 also work together to know, you know, the the first few weeks or 358 00:17:18,380 --> 00:17:22,210 are there, you know, rules of what you do, what not to do? 359 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,359 Do you have any any general guidelines like that? 360 00:17:25,410 --> 00:17:27,089 Yeah, well, you know, it depends. 361 00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:30,400 So first, yes, I have actually in my course I have a lesson 362 00:17:30,410 --> 00:17:33,710 which is, you know, essentially, hey now you got the job. 363 00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:36,630 What do you, what do you do now? And I, I sort of tongue in cheek 364 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,530 say it, but it's true. You need to start thinking about 365 00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:40,410 your next job when you start your first job. 366 00:17:40,460 --> 00:17:42,690 And now, of course, I don't mean like you should start applying 367 00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:46,520 for your next job the day you get your first job, but you're, 368 00:17:46,860 --> 00:17:50,690 you're really in what I call the story accumulation business. 369 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,080 And what I mean by that is when you go to an interview, 370 00:17:54,090 --> 00:17:56,250 eventually you're going to interview, you know, the odds 371 00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:58,260 are very high that you're not going to stay at whatever 372 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,610 in-house job you've been at your entire life. 373 00:18:00,620 --> 00:18:03,000 And so you're going to have many in-house jobs. 374 00:18:03,010 --> 00:18:05,050 You're going to interview many times for different roles. 375 00:18:05,060 --> 00:18:07,850 And so your goal is an in house lawyer. 376 00:18:07,860 --> 00:18:10,490 You know, besides being an excellent in-house lawyer and a 377 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:13,590 good partner to the business is you want to accumulate stories, 378 00:18:13,940 --> 00:18:17,090 meaning like you want to talk about the these things that have 379 00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:19,730 an outsized impact beyond just your day-to-day role. 380 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,910 And so, but part of being able to tell those stories is gets to 381 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,500 your question about the first, you know, 90 days, right, which 382 00:18:26,510 --> 00:18:30,380 is you should just focus on the things that are key to the 383 00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:32,060 business. So I keep going back to this 384 00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:34,850 commercial lawyer example, But you know, one of the things, and 385 00:18:34,860 --> 00:18:37,280 even if you're a product lawyer, it's still the same is you 386 00:18:37,290 --> 00:18:39,840 should understand the products. What do they do? 387 00:18:39,930 --> 00:18:43,100 You should understand the, you know, if you're a commercial 388 00:18:43,110 --> 00:18:45,720 lawyer, you're going to be negotiating your, the terms of 389 00:18:45,730 --> 00:18:49,200 service with your customers. So you should understand what 390 00:18:49,210 --> 00:18:52,200 your terms of service say. You should talk to other lawyers 391 00:18:52,510 --> 00:18:56,180 and ask them what, what are the things that customers typically 392 00:18:56,190 --> 00:18:58,140 negotiate? And like, why do they negotiate? 393 00:18:58,310 --> 00:19:02,220 And if you're, and if you're a company that's big enough, they 394 00:19:02,230 --> 00:19:05,400 might have a, they'll probably have a, a legal playbook that 395 00:19:05,410 --> 00:19:07,990 you can go and review and see, Hey, these are the fall backs 396 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,810 that we get. And here's the provisions that, 397 00:19:10,060 --> 00:19:13,050 you know, you have to, you have to learn those because that's, 398 00:19:13,140 --> 00:19:16,450 that's really the table stakes is when you, when you understand 399 00:19:16,460 --> 00:19:19,330 these, how, how your job works and you understand the product, 400 00:19:19,340 --> 00:19:21,810 it all fits together into this like beautiful, you know, 401 00:19:21,820 --> 00:19:23,130 mixture, right? It's like a recipe. 402 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,930 And then that when you understand all that, that is 403 00:19:25,940 --> 00:19:28,190 when you get into the next phase, which is where you get, 404 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,110 which I called story accumulation, right? 405 00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:32,780 Is your, that's when you're able to like add the real value to 406 00:19:32,790 --> 00:19:35,530 the business because now you're doing the day job or what's 407 00:19:35,540 --> 00:19:37,570 required of you and you're doing a great job. 408 00:19:37,580 --> 00:19:39,480 But then that's when you start thinking like, Hey, you know, I 409 00:19:39,490 --> 00:19:42,510 have noticed that this same issue keeps coming up every 410 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,430 single time. What's the way we can streamline 411 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,250 this? Or hey, maybe there's a, maybe 412 00:19:46,260 --> 00:19:49,040 there's a problem over here or, you know, if you're on the, if 413 00:19:49,050 --> 00:19:50,880 you're on the vendor side, right, which is just the flip 414 00:19:50,890 --> 00:19:53,350 side of commercial. Maybe you say, hey, I've noticed 415 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:55,810 that we're, we're getting the same type of agreement in, but 416 00:19:55,820 --> 00:19:59,710 we're not really negotiating it. Maybe you just create a, you 417 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,490 know, like a one page writer that says, you know, here are 418 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:05,600 the key terms that we we require in every contract. 419 00:20:05,610 --> 00:20:08,680 And then those, and then that way you just eliminate 420 00:20:08,690 --> 00:20:10,970 negotiation. And so, you know, maybe that's 421 00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:13,820 like 10% of your day, right? You spend reviewing these 422 00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:15,240 agreements that you never redline. 423 00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:17,460 And now all the sudden you freed up 10% of your time. 424 00:20:17,510 --> 00:20:20,540 And that goes into the, the account again of story 425 00:20:20,550 --> 00:20:22,360 accumulation. So now when you go interview 426 00:20:22,370 --> 00:20:24,200 again later, you have this great story. 427 00:20:24,210 --> 00:20:27,670 Like, Hey, I saved, you know, I saved 10% of my time or 10% of 428 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,400 the contracts I reviewed by, you know, streamlining this process. 429 00:20:30,410 --> 00:20:32,190 And here's what I did, and here's the impact it. 430 00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:34,500 That allowed me to do all these other things that I wouldn't 431 00:20:34,510 --> 00:20:37,200 have normally been able to do. So those are the things I think 432 00:20:37,210 --> 00:20:39,640 you should look for, you know, and that's obviously way beyond 433 00:20:39,650 --> 00:20:41,590 like, you know, your first like couple months in the role. 434 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,820 But you know, the table stakes are what you got to start with 435 00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:47,460 and build that great foundation that allows you to excel later 436 00:20:47,470 --> 00:20:50,440 on in your career. Amazing really, I think that one 437 00:20:50,450 --> 00:20:54,100 of the, the very helpful like resources that you have as well 438 00:20:54,110 --> 00:20:57,870 is, is what you end up doing a lot of LinkedIn of like, you 439 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,140 know, putting a, a whole list of different in-house roles. 440 00:21:02,150 --> 00:21:05,380 They're available sometimes not only in the US, but including, 441 00:21:05,390 --> 00:21:07,580 you know, Canada. I've seen you do it if you 442 00:21:07,590 --> 00:21:10,240 European countries as well. So really comprehensive and I 443 00:21:10,250 --> 00:21:14,500 find that amazing in a way. It's being really nice to see, 444 00:21:14,510 --> 00:21:16,430 you know, you're helpful tips and all of that. 445 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,310 And I'm wondering as well if you, if you have any kind of 446 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,570 advice that maybe you give two lawyers, you know, trying to 447 00:21:22,580 --> 00:21:25,950 build their own online presence in a way that feels natural to 448 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,350 them. And, and in that same point, 449 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,590 have any of, you know, the lawyers that you've interviewed 450 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,130 or do you, that you worked with, have, you know, kind of is there 451 00:21:36,140 --> 00:21:39,070 a correlation between, you know, having that online presence and 452 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,850 actually getting jobs or that's usually more of a no instrument 453 00:21:42,860 --> 00:21:45,650 for networking and, and keeping those connections alive 454 00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:48,670 afterwards? Yeah, I, so this, this one, I go 455 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,510 back and forth on about whether it's whether a, an online 456 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,410 presence is helpful to lawyers on LinkedIn. 457 00:21:54,460 --> 00:21:57,650 You know, the, the general advice or I guess the general, 458 00:21:57,660 --> 00:22:00,320 general observation I've seen is I, I can't, I've never noticed a 459 00:22:00,330 --> 00:22:03,710 correlation between someone's posting and whether they get, 460 00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:05,490 they get jobs. I don't know if it's true in 461 00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:09,530 other, other industries, but it doesn't seem to be, I don't 462 00:22:09,540 --> 00:22:11,750 think I've met anybody who said they got a job because of 463 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,220 something they posted on LinkedIn. 464 00:22:13,550 --> 00:22:17,200 I do think that if you're working in a law firm, posting 465 00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:20,020 on LinkedIn could be a good way to draw the attention, to draw 466 00:22:20,030 --> 00:22:21,400 the attention of in-house lawyers, right. 467 00:22:21,410 --> 00:22:23,500 Because you, you're seen as a subject matter expert. 468 00:22:23,550 --> 00:22:26,280 It's similarly like presenting at CLES is another great way to 469 00:22:26,290 --> 00:22:29,040 do that. But, you know, I think in terms 470 00:22:29,050 --> 00:22:31,620 of trying to grow your online presence, I think, you know, 471 00:22:31,630 --> 00:22:34,120 first you have to get over, I guess the, the cringe factor of 472 00:22:34,130 --> 00:22:37,060 like, you know, posting content and like feeling like what other 473 00:22:37,070 --> 00:22:39,660 people, you know, you care about what other people are thinking 474 00:22:39,670 --> 00:22:41,650 about you. But I think you really just have 475 00:22:41,660 --> 00:22:44,280 to be authentic, right? And think about what, and this 476 00:22:44,290 --> 00:22:46,710 advice is not dissimilar from what I hear other people give, 477 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,650 but you know, think about something that you're that 478 00:22:48,660 --> 00:22:51,610 you're interested in and that you know a lot about, because I 479 00:22:51,620 --> 00:22:55,330 think that that passion and that interest will people can read 480 00:22:55,340 --> 00:22:56,950 that, right? If you're just writing a you 481 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,390 know what, I think it's like the term of art now these days is 482 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,130 for with AI generated content to slop, right? 483 00:23:02,180 --> 00:23:05,750 And people can, can identify the AI, the AI generated slob. 484 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,470 I think you know better than better than you realize. 485 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,570 And it's OK to use AI to like help you come up with ideas and 486 00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:14,010 maybe refine your post or give you like a first draft. 487 00:23:14,020 --> 00:23:16,150 But you know, you should always be the one writing and editing 488 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:17,070 it. You know the one. 489 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,760 The one other thing I think that I notice lawyers do a lot is 490 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,650 lawyers are really bad at humble bragging. 491 00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:25,920 I think, I think it's, it's perfectly fine and acceptable to 492 00:23:25,930 --> 00:23:28,360 be proud, proud of what you've done and highlight your 493 00:23:28,370 --> 00:23:30,180 accomplishments. But I do think, you know, you 494 00:23:30,190 --> 00:23:32,600 have to be careful about how you do it. 495 00:23:32,650 --> 00:23:34,500 Otherwise it can't rub people the wrong way. 496 00:23:34,710 --> 00:23:37,640 And, you know, I think I think honestly, oftentimes it's better 497 00:23:37,650 --> 00:23:39,580 to keep it keep things short and sweet. 498 00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:42,560 Like, for example, you know, I'm I'm honored to, you know, like 499 00:23:42,570 --> 00:23:45,080 received, you know, ABC award last week. 500 00:23:45,370 --> 00:23:47,530 But then I think you kind of you cross the line into like cringe 501 00:23:47,540 --> 00:23:50,770 worthy and, you know, embarrassing when you know, you 502 00:23:50,780 --> 00:23:53,160 post something about an award or nomination you received. 503 00:23:53,170 --> 00:23:55,940 And you know, you say like I, you know, you and, and you touch 504 00:23:55,950 --> 00:23:58,600 it in a wave. It's just like it turns people 505 00:23:58,610 --> 00:24:00,460 off, I think. And it's like, you know, I had a 506 00:24:00,470 --> 00:24:03,060 really awesome time at this conference and I was humbled to 507 00:24:03,070 --> 00:24:06,300 be on stage with, you know, this, you know, insert the name 508 00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:09,060 of a super important person. And and then I was presented by 509 00:24:09,070 --> 00:24:11,020 an award from this other super important person. 510 00:24:11,030 --> 00:24:12,860 And it's like, you know, nobody wants to hear that. 511 00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:15,250 It's just like, just describe the award and the work you've 512 00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:17,640 done, you know, and like let your work speak for itself. 513 00:24:17,650 --> 00:24:20,040 But you know, I think you could talk to probably 10 people and 514 00:24:20,050 --> 00:24:22,860 they have 10 different takes. And so I'm just one person. 515 00:24:22,930 --> 00:24:25,110 It's like resumes, right? Everyone will have a different 516 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:27,520 resume tip. But you know, there's also gets 517 00:24:27,530 --> 00:24:29,880 me thinking though, I'm going to have to follow my own advice 518 00:24:29,950 --> 00:24:32,840 when I post about being on your podcast when this comes out. 519 00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:34,550 So it's a good question. Got me thinking. 520 00:24:34,590 --> 00:24:36,280 There you go. No, that's great. 521 00:24:36,350 --> 00:24:39,000 While you wrap up today's episode, I wanted to do a quick 522 00:24:39,010 --> 00:24:41,520 with a little bit of a lightning round with you. 523 00:24:41,570 --> 00:24:44,960 So I wanted to ask you, you know, if there was kind of one 524 00:24:44,970 --> 00:24:49,690 phrase or or one thing that you see in each or in lots of the 525 00:24:49,700 --> 00:24:53,180 in-house job descriptions that you could delete, what would 526 00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:54,580 that? Be Oh, this is an easy one. 527 00:24:54,630 --> 00:24:58,000 I would delete any, any job description that describes a job 528 00:24:58,010 --> 00:25:01,320 as corporate counsel. But what is really describing is 529 00:25:01,330 --> 00:25:04,320 the head of a legal department. This is a I posted about this 530 00:25:04,330 --> 00:25:06,920 before on LinkedIn, but that was a huge pet peeve of mine as 531 00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:10,200 people just have unrealistic expectations and you know, 532 00:25:10,210 --> 00:25:12,430 they'll, they'll say it's a corporate counsel role, but it's 533 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,060 like they really want, you know, the head of privacy ahead of 534 00:25:15,070 --> 00:25:17,200 product, kind of commercial ahead of compliance. 535 00:25:17,210 --> 00:25:20,060 And I don't think that does a favor for anybody, the company 536 00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:22,300 or the lawyer who gets that. Job Amazing. 537 00:25:22,350 --> 00:25:25,920 Is there anything about law school that you wish it were 538 00:25:25,930 --> 00:25:27,900 completely different? Yeah. 539 00:25:27,910 --> 00:25:29,600 I do. I was actually talking with a 540 00:25:29,610 --> 00:25:32,610 friend this morning about this. You know, I think, I think law 541 00:25:32,620 --> 00:25:35,370 school, I think law school could be done in two years. 542 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,580 So that would be one, that would be one thing I wish was changed. 543 00:25:38,590 --> 00:25:41,700 The other thing is I, I wish there was less focus on learning 544 00:25:41,710 --> 00:25:43,170 the law. You know, like there are some 545 00:25:43,180 --> 00:25:45,630 important things you need to learn, like Civil Procedure and 546 00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:47,890 criminal, you know, criminal law and things like that. 547 00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:51,290 But I do think there is not enough emphasis on like 548 00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:53,590 learning, but like learning how to do things. 549 00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:57,230 And there's I think there's a you get in a lot of lawyers are 550 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,730 done a disservice when they go into and firms are done a 551 00:25:59,740 --> 00:26:01,630 disservice when lawyers going to practice. 552 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,410 And they spend the first probably couple years just 553 00:26:04,460 --> 00:26:07,380 molding these lawyers into a lawyers who are actually, you 554 00:26:07,390 --> 00:26:09,860 know, can produce work product that they can sell. 555 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,550 And so I wish there you would spend, if you were gonna spend 556 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,390 three years in law school, maybe that third year I spent less on 557 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,000 learning, you know, nuances of the law, right, and more 558 00:26:19,010 --> 00:26:22,480 learning about we're learning about, you know, hey, how do you 559 00:26:22,490 --> 00:26:23,770 write a brief? How do you research? 560 00:26:23,780 --> 00:26:27,310 How do you write a memo to a partner or to a client, things 561 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,500 like that. I think law school would be 562 00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:31,540 great if it if it changed that model up a little bit. 563 00:26:31,550 --> 00:26:33,850 Although it has been 15 years since I've been in law school. 564 00:26:33,860 --> 00:26:36,920 So maybe this has changed? Well, as somebody who's 565 00:26:36,930 --> 00:26:40,000 graduated maybe a little bit more recently, I think there is 566 00:26:40,010 --> 00:26:43,170 a there's definitely the push and the willingness and, and all 567 00:26:43,180 --> 00:26:44,920 of that. But yeah, I don't, I don't know 568 00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:46,940 if in our lifetime we'll see a complete shift. 569 00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:49,830 I think that's very interesting to keep, you know, thinking 570 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,500 about ways that that can be implemented. 571 00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:54,700 And I think that more and more professors and and schools are 572 00:26:54,710 --> 00:26:56,410 trying to integrate that into the curriculum. 573 00:26:56,420 --> 00:26:58,860 But it's definitely still something that that can be 574 00:26:58,870 --> 00:27:00,830 worked on. And military finished the 575 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,980 lightning round here. I wanted to ask you, is there, 576 00:27:02,990 --> 00:27:05,910 is there a question that you never get asked but you wish 577 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,870 people would ask? Claudio OK, so I wrote this down 578 00:27:09,260 --> 00:27:11,890 and this you actually asked the question. 579 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,290 So the question is that I wrote as what should I focus on after 580 00:27:16,340 --> 00:27:19,030 I land my job? Because so many people focus on 581 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,010 landing the job, but they don't think about what they should be 582 00:27:22,020 --> 00:27:25,130 doing after that. And so I think if they focused 583 00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:28,310 on that, they would or they, they spent a little bit of time 584 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,730 thinking about that, they would do themselves a humongous, 585 00:27:30,940 --> 00:27:34,170 humongous favor and really go in, hit the ground running. 586 00:27:34,260 --> 00:27:36,530 Fantastic. Well, I really appreciate you 587 00:27:36,540 --> 00:27:39,950 taking the time to share all of these insights and so much about 588 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,750 your career and the work you do. If you could also tell our 589 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,070 listeners of like, how could they reach out to you? 590 00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:48,290 How could they learn more about your coaching services as well? 591 00:27:48,340 --> 00:27:51,290 Yeah, for sure. So you can find me on LinkedIn, 592 00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:55,250 Billy Rustin. I also have a course called my 593 00:27:55,260 --> 00:27:57,450 in-house coach. It's just BW 594 00:27:57,460 --> 00:28:01,230 w.myin-housecoach.com. And you can also feel free to 595 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,690 reach out to me, e-mail me at hello@myownhousecoach.com. 596 00:28:04,740 --> 00:28:06,350 Amazing. Thank you so much for once again 597 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:08,830 for being the podcast and thank you all for listening. 598 00:28:08,910 --> 00:28:09,500 Thank you.