1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,880 Welcome to studying law around the world. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,300 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode. 3 00:00:17,350 --> 00:00:20,280 I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from 4 00:00:20,290 --> 00:00:23,560 different parts of the world to talk about legal education, 5 00:00:23,670 --> 00:00:26,420 careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:45,950 is for you. So many of the guests on this 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,250 podcast have talked about how important it is to have strong 12 00:00:49,260 --> 00:00:52,890 writing skills as a lawyer. It's true, written communication 13 00:00:52,940 --> 00:00:56,780 is essential in this profession, but it can also be one of the 14 00:00:56,790 --> 00:01:00,120 trickiest skills to master. If you find your writing feels a 15 00:01:00,130 --> 00:01:03,040 bit clunky, or you're getting a lot of edits on your work, or 16 00:01:03,050 --> 00:01:05,580 perhaps you're breaking into an English speaking jurisdiction 17 00:01:05,590 --> 00:01:08,900 for the first time, Grammatica International can help. 18 00:01:09,130 --> 00:01:11,980 I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator and educator 19 00:01:11,990 --> 00:01:15,200 behind Grammatica, and we help lawyers and law students to 20 00:01:15,210 --> 00:01:18,380 write more sharply, speak more clearly, and advance their 21 00:01:18,390 --> 00:01:21,320 careers with group training and one-on-one skills coaching 22 00:01:21,370 --> 00:01:23,380 designed just for legal professionals. 23 00:01:23,790 --> 00:01:26,480 I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are 24 00:01:26,490 --> 00:01:30,060 exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need a bit of 25 00:01:30,070 --> 00:01:32,720 guidance to stand out in a competitive legal market. 26 00:01:33,250 --> 00:01:35,600 And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five 27 00:01:35,610 --> 00:01:38,840 countries during my 17 years in law and education. 28 00:01:39,370 --> 00:01:41,500 Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills 29 00:01:41,510 --> 00:01:44,990 generally, refresh your CV, or draft an application for a law 30 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,750 program, Grammatica can help. Visit gramatica.co to learn 31 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:56,930 more. Today, I have the opportunity to 32 00:01:56,940 --> 00:02:00,480 interview Gary Kaladze. He is a lawyer by trade. 33 00:02:00,490 --> 00:02:03,500 He's been in a translation business for over 2 decades, and 34 00:02:03,510 --> 00:02:05,680 he's the CEO of Alexa Translations. 35 00:02:05,690 --> 00:02:08,919 Gary has a very interesting story of his life, of his 36 00:02:08,930 --> 00:02:13,460 interests in entrepreneurship, in anthropology, leadership and 37 00:02:13,470 --> 00:02:16,220 so forth, and I'm very excited to interview him today. 38 00:02:16,230 --> 00:02:18,840 Thank you so much for joining us in the podcast today, Gary. 39 00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:20,860 Thank you for having McCloud. You're excited to be here. 40 00:02:20,910 --> 00:02:23,080 Amazing and you start over interview. 41 00:02:23,090 --> 00:02:25,590 I'd love for you to introduce yourself to your audience. 42 00:02:25,650 --> 00:02:30,040 So as a quick introduction, I grew up in Albania, moved to 43 00:02:30,050 --> 00:02:33,500 Canada sort of during my last year of high school and then did 44 00:02:33,550 --> 00:02:37,340 my education in Canada initially in the science is about 45 00:02:37,350 --> 00:02:40,310 chemistry, went from there to a law and MBA program. 46 00:02:40,380 --> 00:02:43,490 At the same time during my university career, I was a court 47 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:45,040 interpreter. And that's how I got started 48 00:02:45,050 --> 00:02:48,000 getting some exposure to translation and what brought me 49 00:02:48,010 --> 00:02:50,710 to my, my, what I do for a living today and my sort of 50 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,190 current enterprise. The, it was an interesting 51 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,090 exposure. And then as I decided to pursue 52 00:02:55,100 --> 00:02:58,650 the loan MBA program, it was a bit of a shift from what I 53 00:02:58,660 --> 00:03:00,750 initially started university with where I thought I wanted to 54 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,870 do medicine. And then from there sort of 55 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,700 said, I think I enjoyed this law because of this law field with 56 00:03:05,710 --> 00:03:07,230 the exposure that I had from the courts. 57 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,630 And at the same time I started doing this side business in 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,850 translation, I was like, well, I also could use some business 59 00:03:13,860 --> 00:03:15,330 training because I don't have any. 60 00:03:15,380 --> 00:03:18,610 And that's where the law and MBA program thought process came 61 00:03:18,620 --> 00:03:20,350 from and that's how we got here today. 62 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,640 Briefly after being called to the bar, I made the decision 63 00:03:23,650 --> 00:03:26,550 that I was actually going to focus on business and and pursue 64 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,130 the translation business. Since I have always been 65 00:03:29,140 --> 00:03:31,730 committed to community giving and being involved in a variety 66 00:03:31,740 --> 00:03:35,630 of organizations in the not-for-profit space from a 67 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,830 civilian university unsupported governors to to United Way and 68 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,510 all the way to currently being on the the chair of the board of 69 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,090 Junior Achievement Canada and also on the Board of Junior 70 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:47,370 Achievement Americas, amongst amongst a few other 71 00:03:47,380 --> 00:03:48,990 organizations. I'm involved with it. 72 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,500 It's really pursuing certain causes that are are close to my 73 00:03:51,510 --> 00:03:54,070 heart as well as that I think are really good for our 74 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:55,370 communities. Amazing. 75 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,930 Well, I'm, I'm glad that you already give us a little 76 00:03:58,260 --> 00:04:01,390 information on the JD MBA and how that business training has 77 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,650 helped you in pursuing the path that you are in today. 78 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,170 But I'd love to hear a little bit more about your company as 79 00:04:07,180 --> 00:04:09,320 well. So I've seen that it's 80 00:04:09,330 --> 00:04:12,290 definitely up to date and and definitely keeps up with the 81 00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:14,730 trends. I see that you have AI powered 82 00:04:14,940 --> 00:04:18,490 translations as well nowadays and and now serious you see 83 00:04:18,500 --> 00:04:21,750 about how you know you saw technology reshaping legal 84 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,630 communication more and more having the opportunity to see it 85 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,290 first person in the last two decades. 86 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,370 And tell you, I'll give you a little bit of background. 87 00:04:30,460 --> 00:04:34,110 This is something that Alexa translations we had sort of 88 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,190 identified early on. We had started dabbling with 89 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,370 forms of early technology as early as 2012. 90 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,160 So the early in the iteration of the organization, we had looked 91 00:04:44,170 --> 00:04:46,760 to develop a variety of different technologies on our 92 00:04:46,770 --> 00:04:50,900 own, ultimately getting to 2018 and acquisition that we did 93 00:04:50,910 --> 00:04:53,480 offer an AI machine translation company. 94 00:04:53,530 --> 00:04:57,100 So while we had used variety of different forms, this was sort 95 00:04:57,110 --> 00:04:59,600 of the most advanced at the time they had started to use AI for 96 00:04:59,610 --> 00:05:01,970 translation. And much like how we thought 97 00:05:01,980 --> 00:05:05,440 there would be disruption and legal before LM's or generative 98 00:05:05,450 --> 00:05:09,640 AI is here today in translation, we saw that much earlier because 99 00:05:09,890 --> 00:05:11,940 everyone would have been familiar with tools like Google 100 00:05:11,950 --> 00:05:14,960 Translate or some of the tools that are available freely in the 101 00:05:14,970 --> 00:05:17,640 market and you could see those tools getting better. 102 00:05:17,650 --> 00:05:20,710 So our hypothesis is that as time goes on, AI is going to 103 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:22,840 play a bigger role in our lives and the earlier we get into it, 104 00:05:22,850 --> 00:05:26,200 the better it is not. And, and the same parallels 105 00:05:26,210 --> 00:05:27,820 applying the legal technology, right? 106 00:05:27,890 --> 00:05:31,890 So if you have good training data, so really think of in our 107 00:05:31,900 --> 00:05:34,190 context, really good translations, what that could do 108 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,970 in terms of buildings or models. You could produce very high end 109 00:05:36,980 --> 00:05:39,870 quality translations at the first draft, which translators 110 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,570 can then refine and bring to the finish line. 111 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,310 I think that's a lot of where you're going to see in the legal 112 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,450 space as well, where the evolution of the tech tools 113 00:05:47,460 --> 00:05:52,030 leads to basically an evolution of the workflow that that lawyer 114 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,170 pursues. So drafting will not be done 115 00:05:54,180 --> 00:05:58,410 from scratch anymore. So any, any due diligence, any 116 00:05:58,420 --> 00:06:01,870 litigation discovery, think of all the various things that 117 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,590 document review that a lot of younger lawyers did in their 118 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,190 early days will not be done manual anymore. 119 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,620 You were going to have technology to 1st rounds of and 120 00:06:10,630 --> 00:06:13,230 professions being involved. Once you have a first tranche of 121 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,450 essentially technology will say, OK, these ones may be relevant, 122 00:06:16,460 --> 00:06:19,410 let's have a professional look at it, but they'll narrow down a 123 00:06:19,420 --> 00:06:21,870 lot of the heavy lifting that before would have done manually. 124 00:06:21,980 --> 00:06:23,950 So that was particularly exciting. 125 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,040 I think the we're going into an era much like we did with 126 00:06:27,050 --> 00:06:30,350 translation, where starting from scratch was just inefficient. 127 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:32,490 I think we're going to see the same thing with lawyers. 128 00:06:32,500 --> 00:06:36,430 And frankly, while there is a bit of discomfort in the market 129 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,250 saying what does this mean for us as their job going to change, 130 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,230 I'm a big believer that it will really help do things that 131 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,570 lawyers didn't particularly enjoy anyway. 132 00:06:46,580 --> 00:06:49,210 So like if you think about, let's say, drafting an agreement 133 00:06:49,220 --> 00:06:52,790 starting from scratch was not particularly enjoyable. 134 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,600 And a lot of lawyers, as you can imagine, templates, etc. 135 00:06:55,700 --> 00:06:58,500 And then focus on certain, on certain clauses based on the 136 00:06:58,510 --> 00:07:01,340 context of that particular file that may be working on. 137 00:07:01,690 --> 00:07:04,880 It will be the same thing now, except that even some of those 138 00:07:04,890 --> 00:07:07,920 particular clauses on that particular file, you will now 139 00:07:07,930 --> 00:07:10,920 give context to the tools and they will produce something that 140 00:07:10,930 --> 00:07:13,440 is very close to the final product you would have done 141 00:07:13,450 --> 00:07:16,100 where the lawyer's job now just became faster. 142 00:07:16,110 --> 00:07:20,620 So you'll be able to give clients more predictable fees up 143 00:07:20,630 --> 00:07:24,340 front, give some context around what this would look like and 144 00:07:24,350 --> 00:07:27,120 certain other areas like litigation and being in court, 145 00:07:27,130 --> 00:07:28,480 etcetera. Like it'll help with 146 00:07:28,490 --> 00:07:31,520 preparation, but naturally, you're not going to have a, I 147 00:07:31,530 --> 00:07:34,360 represent clients at court, at least not in the foreseeable 148 00:07:34,370 --> 00:07:35,820 future. So it'll be interesting to see 149 00:07:35,830 --> 00:07:37,070 this play out. Amazing though. 150 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:38,680 That sounds really, really interesting. 151 00:07:38,810 --> 00:07:41,740 And if I may ask you, what are some of the challenges that 152 00:07:41,750 --> 00:07:44,740 you've been finding as well and that maybe you've seen the 153 00:07:44,750 --> 00:07:48,200 profession bring to you specifically for lawyers when it 154 00:07:48,210 --> 00:07:50,420 comes to language barriers and translation? 155 00:07:50,530 --> 00:07:53,680 And, and I'll use the example of translation and then sort of 156 00:07:53,690 --> 00:07:55,240 bring it out more broadly as well. 157 00:07:55,310 --> 00:07:59,970 So in translation, you know, lawyers are often dealing with 158 00:07:59,980 --> 00:08:03,370 many things at the same time and sort of inundated with, with 159 00:08:03,380 --> 00:08:05,510 traffic. So one of the things that they 160 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,900 have to do is like, OK, I need this translation done well and I 161 00:08:07,910 --> 00:08:09,950 need to quickly. And then you could do it with 162 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,640 professionals, but you also have lawyers are bilingual. 163 00:08:12,650 --> 00:08:15,600 And this is where sort of tweaking the output that the AI 164 00:08:15,610 --> 00:08:18,670 provides can produce a much higher result on the roads with 165 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,790 this feedback loop of actually training the tool. 166 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,150 I actually compare that to hiring a junior associate. 167 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,870 And I say, look, this is a very hard working associate. 168 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,570 It's going to work tirelessly 24 hours a day, except it'll need 169 00:08:32,580 --> 00:08:34,510 some of that initial training, some of that investment. 170 00:08:34,570 --> 00:08:36,880 And to go in with an expectation that you're going to get 171 00:08:36,890 --> 00:08:39,490 something that is close to perfect from the get go is, is 172 00:08:39,500 --> 00:08:42,690 unrealistic because even some of the smartest associates, they 173 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:44,750 will need some training, some context around the work. 174 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,230 No matter how much research they do on their own, no matter how 175 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,450 much they've read, and we know today's AI tools have read a 176 00:08:50,460 --> 00:08:53,330 lot, it still needs some further tweaking before you can get to 177 00:08:53,340 --> 00:08:55,990 the final process. The beauty of how technologies 178 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,090 evolve these days is that it will keep getting better 179 00:08:58,100 --> 00:08:59,850 out-of-the-box. And we see this with translation 180 00:08:59,860 --> 00:09:02,020 or you can actually sort especially our tool, because 181 00:09:02,030 --> 00:09:04,090 it's trained in the league of financial space, it will do 182 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:06,480 really well out-of-the-box. The moment you give us some 183 00:09:06,490 --> 00:09:09,280 feedback saying, hey, here's the tweaks I made to this document, 184 00:09:09,330 --> 00:09:12,200 then you can see that evolution. Next time you actually work in 185 00:09:12,210 --> 00:09:15,490 on the same type of content, you don't need to touch up the same 186 00:09:15,500 --> 00:09:16,780 things again. It's really learn. 187 00:09:16,790 --> 00:09:19,450 It applies those scenarios, but also applies the logic to 188 00:09:19,460 --> 00:09:20,720 scenarios that never seen before. 189 00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:23,540 So this is the true artificial intelligence is that it draws 190 00:09:23,550 --> 00:09:25,660 from the logic that you're doing, not strictly just the 191 00:09:25,670 --> 00:09:28,400 exact changes. And now the same parallel would 192 00:09:28,410 --> 00:09:31,520 apply to any other tool, right? So let's use the drafting 193 00:09:31,530 --> 00:09:33,970 example we said earlier. So while the tool produces 194 00:09:33,980 --> 00:09:36,700 certain drafts, if you made some tweaks to the drafts, and this 195 00:09:36,710 --> 00:09:40,240 is key because the tool cannot read your mind until you tell 196 00:09:40,250 --> 00:09:41,740 it, hey, here's how I changed it. 197 00:09:41,820 --> 00:09:44,860 And as the tools get smarter, then I'll say, OK, I understand 198 00:09:44,870 --> 00:09:46,590 the logic. I understand what Claudio did it 199 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,920 this way because this is what he was thinking. 200 00:09:48,990 --> 00:09:50,860 This was the train of thought that happened on it. 201 00:09:50,990 --> 00:09:56,380 That's so when you think of challenges is sometimes we 202 00:09:56,390 --> 00:09:59,060 overestimate how much technology can do from the get go. 203 00:09:59,110 --> 00:10:01,940 And although it's going to substantially better and etc, it 204 00:10:01,950 --> 00:10:03,720 still needs some further context. 205 00:10:03,770 --> 00:10:06,380 But at the same time, we underestimate how quickly can 206 00:10:06,390 --> 00:10:08,600 evolve once we give it some feedback. 207 00:10:08,650 --> 00:10:13,020 So as feedback to anyone listening, I would say embrace 208 00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:14,600 it. Know that don't expect 209 00:10:14,610 --> 00:10:19,320 perfection from day one, but if you give it sort of the a fair 210 00:10:19,330 --> 00:10:22,780 bit of attention, it will evolve rather quickly and go to go back 211 00:10:22,790 --> 00:10:25,480 to that as a junior associate example, if they are a very 212 00:10:25,490 --> 00:10:27,420 smart junior associate, they'll pick up things quickly and 213 00:10:27,430 --> 00:10:29,760 really evolve for your purposes and then work tirelessly. 214 00:10:29,810 --> 00:10:31,020 You just have to make that initial. 215 00:10:31,030 --> 00:10:34,200 Investment, amazing. I I'm wondering now if senior 216 00:10:34,210 --> 00:10:38,720 lawyers who are very, very much adopting AI and who also work a 217 00:10:38,730 --> 00:10:42,030 lot, junior associates, whether they're, they're prompting, has 218 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,690 also prompted them to give better instructions, But then 219 00:10:45,700 --> 00:10:48,690 they're telling associates what you do, just like they have to 220 00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:51,130 do with the I it's, it's a very interesting moment here. 221 00:10:51,180 --> 00:10:55,110 If I were to ask you now on a more personal entrepreneurship 222 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,060 business side as well, I'd love to hear a little more about, you 223 00:10:58,070 --> 00:11:01,030 know, leadership lessons that maybe you've learned along the 224 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:05,730 way that might surprise lawyers or professionals where first, 225 00:11:05,740 --> 00:11:09,110 you know, getting ready to go into this journey of being an 226 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,950 entrepreneur beach, you know, starting their own law firm or 227 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,270 maybe even going to a quasi legal industry. 228 00:11:16,330 --> 00:11:19,130 So I always have some tips that I share with any aspiring 229 00:11:19,140 --> 00:11:22,560 entrepreneurs. It's often the answer is now is 230 00:11:22,570 --> 00:11:24,920 better than later. So starting earlier down the 231 00:11:24,930 --> 00:11:27,900 path is, is, is always good. And, and I say this in the 232 00:11:27,910 --> 00:11:31,090 context of think of most people graduating law school, they're 233 00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:34,820 relatively early and they may not have a family or the family 234 00:11:34,890 --> 00:11:38,400 maybe sort of early stages, maybe a spouse or partner and 235 00:11:38,410 --> 00:11:41,320 not even having children yet. The risk appetite is a little 236 00:11:41,330 --> 00:11:44,120 larger than when you actually have kids and sort of the, the 237 00:11:44,130 --> 00:11:45,520 obligations that come along with it. 238 00:11:45,650 --> 00:11:50,620 So as a result, once there's a level of learning that and 239 00:11:50,630 --> 00:11:53,360 obviously in law that requires a little bit before sort of going 240 00:11:53,370 --> 00:11:56,840 and setting up your own shop or even setting up a company that 241 00:11:56,850 --> 00:11:59,900 is separate from law, much like my example, which is detached 242 00:11:59,910 --> 00:12:01,500 from legal practice for the most part. 243 00:12:01,510 --> 00:12:03,860 And there's certainly legal applications working in 244 00:12:03,870 --> 00:12:05,990 translation. But the thought process of 245 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,830 starting early is helpful because you learn, you iterate, 246 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,850 but you also have the, the risk appetite is higher and you can 247 00:12:11,860 --> 00:12:13,550 also, you have the runway to learn. 248 00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:15,130 You'll make mistakes along the way. 249 00:12:15,140 --> 00:12:17,070 It's, it's inevitable no matter how much you plan. 250 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,010 And you know, there's forms of this phrase that come that I've 251 00:12:22,020 --> 00:12:24,640 heard from a variety of executives now is better than 252 00:12:24,650 --> 00:12:27,330 perfect. So you can plan all you want. 253 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,310 Things won't go perfectly and won't go exactly how you plan. 254 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:35,170 So I think being able to be nimble and and sort of advanced 255 00:12:35,180 --> 00:12:38,580 quickly is paramount. And to use the technology 256 00:12:38,590 --> 00:12:40,640 example, we said earlier, we have a lot of technology tools 257 00:12:40,650 --> 00:12:43,810 that can actually help do things that before we have to rely a 258 00:12:43,820 --> 00:12:45,890 lot more on on professionals to help us. 259 00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:49,390 So whether it's drafting marketing collateral content, 260 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,750 whether it is creating websites, whether it is virtual assistance 261 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,950 that can do things for you as an entrepreneur. 262 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,210 Now you can achieve a lot more by using technology effectively. 263 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:01,690 That doesn't mean you have to be proficient when you go down that 264 00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:05,420 path, but it needs this relentless curiosity to say, let 265 00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:07,670 me learn how to do this. Let me see how I can figure out 266 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:11,760 this and iterate a bit more. And because your resources are 267 00:13:11,770 --> 00:13:14,310 stretched, especially in the early days, you want to make 268 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,330 sure you can use all these tools at your disposal. 269 00:13:16,340 --> 00:13:20,460 There are now evolving out there as it is to really jump down 270 00:13:20,470 --> 00:13:23,020 that path. So to go back to your original 271 00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:26,840 point around advice, it's start sooner than later. 272 00:13:26,950 --> 00:13:29,620 So if you have an idea it's crystallized or you, you have a 273 00:13:29,630 --> 00:13:31,880 really good sense of what you want to do, do it now. 274 00:13:32,050 --> 00:13:36,240 Use all this solutions that are out available out there. 275 00:13:36,290 --> 00:13:38,520 So research and that relentless curiosity. 276 00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:41,120 It will naturally be a lot of hard work and worship is by no 277 00:13:41,130 --> 00:13:44,240 means I don't like to have a boss because you know, it's I 278 00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:46,310 work too hard and and I don't enjoy it. 279 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,460 I want to do some of my own. It's not like you're working any 280 00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:50,160 less when you work on your own, but it is. 281 00:13:50,170 --> 00:13:52,900 You will move much faster the harder you work at it, of 282 00:13:52,910 --> 00:13:55,220 course. Amazing and and Speaking of 283 00:13:55,230 --> 00:13:59,740 that, I, I got curious here show about those leadership lessons 284 00:13:59,750 --> 00:14:02,360 and all of that and I wanted to ask you a little bit about the 285 00:14:02,370 --> 00:14:06,500 role of relationships as you become an entrepreneur as you go 286 00:14:06,510 --> 00:14:09,690 towards that path. I saw that you your self host a 287 00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:12,850 podcast and you bring a lot of good friends from a lifetime it 288 00:14:12,860 --> 00:14:15,090 seems like. So I was, I was curious, you 289 00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:18,570 know, also how that network has helped you to stay afloat. 290 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,030 Well, and cardio I, it's been fundamental to our success. 291 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,790 The initial now where I spent a lot of time developing and and 292 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,710 sort of cultivating overtime as being critical to our success 293 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,980 was relationships really matter. And especially in the day, in 294 00:14:30,990 --> 00:14:34,910 the context of technology, the people want to work with 295 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:36,890 organizations and people they trust. 296 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,350 Inevitably when you're working, especially the service business, 297 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,910 things are bound to go wrong even in technology. 298 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,210 So they need to know that there's a partner that the 299 00:14:44,220 --> 00:14:47,450 moment something is not meeting expectations, not going exactly 300 00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:49,810 how they want, they will, they will jump on it, address it 301 00:14:49,820 --> 00:14:53,760 quickly and show that true approach to, to really problem 302 00:14:53,770 --> 00:14:56,060 solving and finding solutions for the client. 303 00:14:56,110 --> 00:14:59,060 And the relationship building is just that, that when there is a 304 00:14:59,070 --> 00:15:02,500 relationship, they everyone on the on the other side knows 305 00:15:02,510 --> 00:15:04,700 that, OK, I can pick up the phone and call Gary or I can go 306 00:15:04,710 --> 00:15:07,270 Claudio and I know that this will be addressed. 307 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,460 I don't have to wander, especially in the tech space, 308 00:15:09,470 --> 00:15:11,500 create a ticket. And then it goes into this black 309 00:15:11,510 --> 00:15:12,800 box. And you never know when you hear 310 00:15:12,810 --> 00:15:15,720 back, right? So that becomes particularly 311 00:15:15,730 --> 00:15:18,740 important. I just participated and wrote a 312 00:15:18,750 --> 00:15:21,630 chapter in a book called Networking for Success with my 313 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,870 friends David Souci and Mark Healy, and it's called the 314 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,460 ripple effect. Networking for success. 315 00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:30,320 The ripple effect is now actually available on on at 316 00:15:30,330 --> 00:15:32,000 bookstores and on Amazon, etcetera. 317 00:15:32,070 --> 00:15:36,410 There's a variety of Canadian entrepreneurs participated in 318 00:15:36,420 --> 00:15:39,650 it, entrepreneurs and executives and sort of broad spectrum 319 00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:43,050 former politicians like in the case of dates and the idea of a 320 00:15:43,060 --> 00:15:47,120 rounded was how did networking help this group of executives 321 00:15:47,130 --> 00:15:51,450 and entrepreneurs, etcetera and what the tips that they pursued 322 00:15:51,460 --> 00:15:53,460 was. And there are some themes you 323 00:15:53,470 --> 00:15:55,240 will see across the various chapters. 324 00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:58,510 And it's really that investing in the network is so critical 325 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,870 and it makes a huge difference in in the long term success. 326 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,670 Amazing. Well, going forward here to to a 327 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,690 little bit of a different topic now and thinking about, you 328 00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:11,270 know, this next generation of lawyers coming to the market. 329 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,810 If you were advising young lawyers today, I'm curious to 330 00:16:14,820 --> 00:16:17,930 hear a little bit of your thoughts and what your early 331 00:16:17,940 --> 00:16:21,890 career lawyers, law students, what kind of skills or what kind 332 00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:24,810 of experience would you encourage them to seek out? 333 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,620 So I think one of the things that law schools have 334 00:16:27,630 --> 00:16:31,130 traditionally not been as thorough with is teaching 335 00:16:31,140 --> 00:16:33,660 business skills to lawyers. Like there's a lot of effort 336 00:16:33,670 --> 00:16:36,140 going into the law, but understanding the business 337 00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:38,790 skills because whether you're in a large law firm, whether you're 338 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,100 running your own firm or you're an entrepreneur, there's a lot 339 00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:42,370 of business because that go into it. 340 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,130 And a lot of it is understanding client relationships as well. 341 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,270 And understanding the client, not just the law, because so 342 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,880 much of his dynamics of the business and not just knowing 343 00:16:50,890 --> 00:16:53,390 the law because to actually add value to the clients 344 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,300 effectively, you need to understand their perspective. 345 00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:57,690 What are they going through? Put yourselves in their shoes. 346 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,330 So getting exposure to the clients themselves can be and 347 00:17:01,340 --> 00:17:03,900 and their shoes can be particularly helpful. 348 00:17:03,990 --> 00:17:08,819 So As for law students, you know, historically reading a lot 349 00:17:08,829 --> 00:17:10,800 about the various areas. So if they're interested in 350 00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:13,520 finance, for example, to be on top of what's happening in the 351 00:17:13,530 --> 00:17:15,710 finance world, reading a bit proactive so they can understand 352 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,260 what it looks like. So that the issues of the day, 353 00:17:18,270 --> 00:17:21,660 when they hear about it in a future firm context, they they 354 00:17:21,670 --> 00:17:24,740 have, they're pretty well understood and and they 355 00:17:24,750 --> 00:17:26,460 understand, OK, this is what goes into it. 356 00:17:26,510 --> 00:17:31,430 If there's any dynamics that happen in, in a certain business 357 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,030 context with certain executives to also be aware because they 358 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,530 can often transfer into files for the firms down the road. 359 00:17:37,590 --> 00:17:40,990 Um, I had on my podcast, as you indicated earlier last year, 360 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,280 Claudio, my friend Walid Soliman at noon Rose, who's the chairman 361 00:17:44,290 --> 00:17:46,540 of Norman Rose. And he said, Hey, if you don't 362 00:17:46,550 --> 00:17:49,360 start by reading the Globe and Mail regularly, you're starting 363 00:17:49,370 --> 00:17:52,090 the day behind sort of a couple of steps behind the people that 364 00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:53,500 are. So that provides good 365 00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:57,680 perspective and that's a good. So habit or hygiene, let's say 366 00:17:57,690 --> 00:18:00,980 to get into since before becoming a lawyer, because then 367 00:18:00,990 --> 00:18:02,260 it's a good habit to get into it. 368 00:18:02,330 --> 00:18:05,720 So I would say publications of the nature, we can really learn 369 00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:08,180 whether it's global mail, whether it's Bloomberg, whether 370 00:18:08,190 --> 00:18:10,240 it's the Economist, understand what's happening at a more 371 00:18:10,250 --> 00:18:12,160 global level. Those can be really helpful, 372 00:18:12,170 --> 00:18:14,460 especially if you're interested in corporate law, for example, 373 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:16,100 but just general knowledge in general. 374 00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:20,000 And so, so being informed is a key part of it. 375 00:18:20,010 --> 00:18:22,660 So to, to being the clients shoes, I would say the next 376 00:18:22,670 --> 00:18:25,320 category is really familiarizing yourself with technology. 377 00:18:25,330 --> 00:18:28,310 We know it will be a big part of all our lives. 378 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,500 So it's not acceptable to say, well, I'm not really a tech 379 00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:33,900 savvy person. Like I'll refer to the tech, the 380 00:18:33,910 --> 00:18:37,390 tech team of this, especially as lawyers are younger, that's 381 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,020 worth the investment. The, the more they can learn 382 00:18:41,030 --> 00:18:43,760 early on, the better it is. And not to default to that, 383 00:18:43,770 --> 00:18:46,270 like, well, I'll just defer to the professionals around this. 384 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,940 I think having a good understanding of it is, is 385 00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:51,640 important, not that we expect the lawyers to become 386 00:18:51,650 --> 00:18:54,420 programmers, but to understand how technology can augment their 387 00:18:54,430 --> 00:18:57,060 workflow. The last thing and ties into the 388 00:18:57,070 --> 00:19:00,300 question you said earlier would be network, network, network. 389 00:19:00,370 --> 00:19:02,630 So your social capital is extremely critical. 390 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,070 I talk about it in the ripple effect and it's that that social 391 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,520 capital can really help. This will be whether it's 392 00:19:08,530 --> 00:19:11,060 colleagues right now that will eventually become colleagues at 393 00:19:11,070 --> 00:19:14,190 other firms or in-house counsel or entrepreneurs that you can 394 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,990 work with, whether it is that they are meeting potential new 395 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,310 clients or even colleagues that can open doors in other ways. 396 00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:23,550 But it's just so important to have this. 397 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,250 The, the value of social capital can be extremely critical. 398 00:19:26,660 --> 00:19:29,870 If you think about the path of partnership in a lot of firms is 399 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,070 that to become partner, you're expected to bring some business 400 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,160 to the firm, not just become a technical expert. 401 00:19:34,220 --> 00:19:37,290 And for that to be the case, that means you expect to have 402 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:39,460 relationships and relationships that trust you will give you 403 00:19:39,470 --> 00:19:41,620 work. And that work can then sort of 404 00:19:41,630 --> 00:19:43,270 materialize into revenue for the firm. 405 00:19:43,660 --> 00:19:47,930 Cultivating that mindset early on can be particularly important 406 00:19:47,940 --> 00:19:49,430 in Tastic. Fantastic. 407 00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:52,870 Thank you so much for those. And moving forward to another 408 00:19:52,940 --> 00:19:55,090 points that you mentioned, you mentioned you sit on a few 409 00:19:55,100 --> 00:19:59,190 boards and and one of them being Junior Achievement both Americas 410 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,470 and Canada. So I was curious to know a 411 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,100 little more about this work that you're involved in, in, in youth 412 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:09,290 empowerment and also if you see a role that you know lawyers and 413 00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:13,110 entrepreneurs have in giving back to the community globally? 414 00:20:13,180 --> 00:20:15,580 Well, I think. Claudio, all of us have sort of 415 00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:19,020 a social responsibility to give back to the community in one way 416 00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:21,940 or another. And I think especially lawyers, 417 00:20:22,150 --> 00:20:24,910 they have a a really good understanding of corporate 418 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,580 structure compared to non lawyers that you think about 419 00:20:28,590 --> 00:20:31,440 boards depending on the not-for-profit, you could have 420 00:20:31,450 --> 00:20:33,850 boards that are more direction setting and some that are more 421 00:20:33,860 --> 00:20:36,120 hands on. But there's a whole slew of 422 00:20:36,130 --> 00:20:39,070 legal issues that come up at the board level from proper 423 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,860 governance to ethics, etcetera. And having people with legal 424 00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:45,200 training can be really helpful because they can, while they 425 00:20:45,210 --> 00:20:47,230 don't have to be the specialist obviously have to be able to 426 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:48,560 identify. It's like, hey, we may actually 427 00:20:48,570 --> 00:20:51,050 need some advice on this or we have to think of it with this 428 00:20:51,060 --> 00:20:53,570 lens. So lawyers getting involved in 429 00:20:53,580 --> 00:20:56,350 in this board is particularly helpful. 430 00:20:56,360 --> 00:21:00,130 And I know in the junior Junior Achievement America and Canada 431 00:21:00,140 --> 00:21:02,690 board, we would have historically had lawyers on 432 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:05,530 junior team in Canada. Currently about four lawyers. 433 00:21:05,540 --> 00:21:09,310 So like, you know, have certainly well represented and 434 00:21:09,390 --> 00:21:13,290 the, and the lawyers bring a level of critical thinking low 435 00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:15,730 aside a level of critical thinking that is there also 436 00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:19,130 breaks down issues, much like how you read those cases where 437 00:21:19,140 --> 00:21:23,450 you see judges, you know, very learned judges return certain 438 00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:26,270 logic and certain tests to put things through in the future 439 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,490 where you say, I wonder how they came up with that in the 1st 440 00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:31,050 place. And that's again, years of 441 00:21:31,060 --> 00:21:34,040 experience being transferred into logic to to break it down. 442 00:21:34,050 --> 00:21:36,730 And you can imagine that's can be very helpful when you're 443 00:21:36,780 --> 00:21:40,030 leading an organization and breaking that up as it is now. 444 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,830 In my case, I thought Junior Schuman is really focused on 445 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,170 financial literacy and and youth entrepreneurship, both causes 446 00:21:46,180 --> 00:21:48,700 them very passionate about. That's the Junior Achievement 447 00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:51,440 organization have been involved with for 11 years and and all 448 00:21:51,450 --> 00:21:53,860 continue to be involved because of their mandate. 449 00:21:53,910 --> 00:21:57,320 But cause aside, because we all have causes that that we're 450 00:21:57,330 --> 00:21:59,320 passionate about. I'm also involved with lawsuits, 451 00:21:59,330 --> 00:22:02,390 which is an organization that focuses on helping lawyers 452 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:03,760 fundraiser for cancer, for example. 453 00:22:03,770 --> 00:22:08,700 So Rick, cause aside, I think one get involved because your 454 00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:10,970 skill set is very helpful to this organization will help it 455 00:22:10,980 --> 00:22:13,370 learn. But also to the networking point 456 00:22:13,380 --> 00:22:16,040 earlier, some of the best people I've met have been through being 457 00:22:16,050 --> 00:22:19,150 involved in these boards and the fulfillment that you get is 458 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,490 worth the time investment because you're contributing, but 459 00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:25,460 you get a personal fulfillment. It's, it's a lot, a lot of them 460 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,810 can be significant amount of work, but it's different work 461 00:22:29,820 --> 00:22:33,190 than your day-to-day, which is switching gears can be helpful 462 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,060 to your mindset and you're meeting with some of the people, 463 00:22:36,070 --> 00:22:38,690 some people that are coming from walks of life that you wouldn't 464 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:41,410 necessarily have met but for, for these boards. 465 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,610 So in many ways, it's actually really helpful to to the to the 466 00:22:45,620 --> 00:22:49,790 actual volunteer when in this case lawyers themselves and they 467 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,630 get a lot out of it just as much as they're putting into helping 468 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,070 the organization. Amazing. 469 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:56,440 Well. To, to wrap up today's episode, 470 00:22:56,450 --> 00:23:01,100 Gary, I'd, I'd love to ask you about, you know, sometimes 471 00:23:01,110 --> 00:23:04,700 lawyers have a bad reputation for not being, you know, quick 472 00:23:04,710 --> 00:23:07,940 to adapt to new technology. And then maybe that the, the 473 00:23:07,950 --> 00:23:10,780 legal system is true traditional, true conservative 474 00:23:10,790 --> 00:23:13,420 and it doesn't take risks and all of that. 475 00:23:13,490 --> 00:23:16,000 But I want to rescue you. If you were to give some kind of 476 00:23:16,010 --> 00:23:19,100 advice for lawyers who are, you know, they have a good idea, 477 00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:22,130 they want to innovate, they want to create a new venture within 478 00:23:22,140 --> 00:23:25,230 this very traditional legal system, what what would be the, 479 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,690 the kind of advice you'd give them? 480 00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:28,650 So. And I'll start more broadly, 481 00:23:28,660 --> 00:23:32,510 anytime lawyers or any entrepreneur wants to go and 482 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,350 solve a problem, it's start with a big pain point. 483 00:23:35,420 --> 00:23:38,850 Like what is a big pain point that you can help address and 484 00:23:38,860 --> 00:23:41,570 then break out like here's the solutions that can be with it. 485 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,210 The good thing with lawyers coming up with entrepreneurial 486 00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:48,280 ventures, especially if they are in the legal spaces that they 487 00:23:48,290 --> 00:23:51,510 come with the credibility of, OK, I understand what this looks 488 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,720 like day-to-day. And I've seen a variety of tech 489 00:23:53,730 --> 00:23:56,150 ventures that have done really well at legal tech ventures 490 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,510 where you had lawyers actually approached us and say, hey, as a 491 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,190 lawyer, here's how it address it and they comes with credibility. 492 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,070 It also comes with a level of understanding that somebody that 493 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,510 would have come externally say just a tech entrepreneur would 494 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,070 have not understood as well unless they had a lawyer sort of 495 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,040 partner that they could provide that perspective. 496 00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:17,950 So resolve a big pain point, approach it with the level of 497 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,790 let's find solutions that can help sort of improve certain 498 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,400 workflows. And then similarly, if the 499 00:24:24,410 --> 00:24:26,580 lawyers wanted to pursue something outside of law, the 500 00:24:26,590 --> 00:24:29,020 same approach, like I would apply the same approach. 501 00:24:29,090 --> 00:24:31,580 Think about my case. It was largely, you know, 502 00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:34,740 knowing that translation for organizations would or would be 503 00:24:34,750 --> 00:24:39,160 cumbersome and often slow. Can you use AI to really help 504 00:24:39,170 --> 00:24:42,140 improve that workflow and by customizing it heavily to 505 00:24:42,150 --> 00:24:44,900 particular companies. So again, the pain point being 506 00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:47,420 we knew that they would spend a lot of money on translation. 507 00:24:47,630 --> 00:24:52,140 It is the timeline was of importance and by embracing sort 508 00:24:52,150 --> 00:24:55,710 of that level of change of OK, how do I develop technology that 509 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,970 can help resolve this, but also the change management that comes 510 00:24:58,980 --> 00:25:01,130 with it. So getting good technology is 511 00:25:01,140 --> 00:25:02,970 only part of it. You have to actually work with 512 00:25:02,980 --> 00:25:04,810 the people to say, here's how you adopt it. 513 00:25:04,860 --> 00:25:08,230 And to your point, cloud, you sometimes lawyers have been slow 514 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,330 to adopt. And I don't think it's because 515 00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:13,550 the nature of lawyers is that they don't like technology, but 516 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,790 often we're running at 100 miles an hour. 517 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,490 So you don't have a lot of time to pause and think, how do I do 518 00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:21,070 this? And lawyers are also trained to 519 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,630 be a bit risk averse by their very trained, say, what are 520 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,360 things that this technology could do wrong? 521 00:25:26,450 --> 00:25:29,630 You know, And, and while that's, that's a good lens to still keep 522 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,520 in mind, because certainly technology at the pace that's 523 00:25:32,530 --> 00:25:34,310 evolving can have its challenges. 524 00:25:34,380 --> 00:25:36,970 I think a level of open mindedness and continuous 525 00:25:36,980 --> 00:25:40,350 experimentation will be key. So continuously experimentation, 526 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,090 setting up a certain amount of time to say, even if I spent 2-3 527 00:25:44,100 --> 00:25:47,030 hours a week doing a level of experimentation with X tool or 528 00:25:47,340 --> 00:25:51,070 tool can be a really good way to making sure you're, you're 529 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,370 getting there. And sometimes you don't have to 530 00:25:53,380 --> 00:25:57,110 go think about this in strictly the sense of I'm going to go set 531 00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:58,570 up a new venture, resolve a problem. 532 00:25:58,580 --> 00:26:02,210 Sometimes it could be I am part of the litigation group at this 533 00:26:02,220 --> 00:26:04,710 law firm and we have a pain point that is ours. 534 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,530 I can show an initiative that can help resolve it from my 535 00:26:07,540 --> 00:26:10,750 group by showing this sort of level of entrepreneurial 536 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,730 approach to it and saying I can go and look at some solutions 537 00:26:13,740 --> 00:26:16,550 externally, bring about that advice to the group and 538 00:26:16,610 --> 00:26:19,010 implement that internally without having to necessarily go 539 00:26:19,020 --> 00:26:21,390 set up a business. Entrepreneurship can well be 540 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,630 alive and well within an organization and doesn't have to 541 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,450 be strictly in setting up a business. 542 00:26:26,510 --> 00:26:27,430 Amazing. I love. 543 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,310 That well, I really just wanted to thank you once again for 544 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,730 taking the time to be in the podcast today to share all of 545 00:26:32,740 --> 00:26:35,510 these really interesting insights and also thank you all 546 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,570 for tuning in and listening Thank you for. 547 00:26:37,580 --> 00:26:39,690 Having me, it's been a pleasure to be here.