1 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,050 Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of 2 00:00:15,060 --> 00:00:18,330 Studying Law around the World. Today we have the opportunity to 3 00:00:18,340 --> 00:00:22,350 receive Sandra Shine. She's the Director of Dispute 4 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,830 Resolution Services here in Ontario. 5 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,050 She has an extensive experience in dispute resolution 6 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,670 adjudication and management in both the private and public 7 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,150 sectors. Thank you so much for joining us 8 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:37,370 today, Sandra. Good afternoon. 9 00:00:37,420 --> 00:00:39,830 Thank you for having me on this podcast and I look forward to 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,130 our conversation today. Amazing. 11 00:00:42,190 --> 00:00:44,630 Well, choose start our conversation today. 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:46,870 I I'd love to hear a little bit about yourself. 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,170 You could you could introduce yourself short, short which you 14 00:00:49,180 --> 00:00:53,650 are listeners and we can just right after that jump into your 15 00:00:53,660 --> 00:00:55,690 conversation. Absolutely. 16 00:00:55,700 --> 00:00:59,730 So you've indicated my name and my title, and I do work here for 17 00:00:59,740 --> 00:01:03,270 the Ontario province and I work as the Director of Dispute 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,030 Resolution Services in the Ministry of Labour, Immigration, 19 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,970 Training and Skills Development. And in my job, what my team does 20 00:01:09,980 --> 00:01:12,510 is we provide mediation assistance to unions and 21 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,430 employers to assist with collective bargaining across the 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,050 province. So in more layman's terms, I 23 00:01:18,060 --> 00:01:21,650 would say that we work with parties to prevent work 24 00:01:21,660 --> 00:01:25,010 stoppages and labour disruptions across the province in the 25 00:01:25,020 --> 00:01:29,100 private and public sector and assist parties to get to their 26 00:01:29,110 --> 00:01:32,330 collective agreements. It's every day, it's a different 27 00:01:32,340 --> 00:01:35,330 workplace and different parties. And that's what makes it really 28 00:01:35,340 --> 00:01:39,210 interesting is we get to share and be art of people's 29 00:01:39,220 --> 00:01:42,280 workplaces across the province, whether it be a large workplace 30 00:01:42,290 --> 00:01:45,920 like a large private manufacturer or we get to be in 31 00:01:45,930 --> 00:01:50,060 a municipality, at a school board, involved in transit, 32 00:01:50,070 --> 00:01:53,260 involved in medical facility. And we're really privileged that 33 00:01:53,270 --> 00:01:56,140 people share their lives and their workplaces with us every 34 00:01:56,150 --> 00:01:57,340 day. But that's also what makes our 35 00:01:57,350 --> 00:02:00,450 work very, very interesting is we get to be part of working 36 00:02:00,460 --> 00:02:03,940 with parties, unions and employers to come to agreements 37 00:02:03,950 --> 00:02:08,100 that define and explain what the terms of their work conditions 38 00:02:08,110 --> 00:02:10,479 will be over the course of their collective agreement. 39 00:02:10,490 --> 00:02:14,080 That sounds so interesting. And as you know, in our, in our 40 00:02:14,090 --> 00:02:17,160 podcast, a lot of the focus is to get out to listen to the 41 00:02:17,170 --> 00:02:20,380 story of our guests. So beyond, you know, hearing 42 00:02:20,390 --> 00:02:22,580 about what they do these days, we love hearing a little bit 43 00:02:22,590 --> 00:02:24,820 about how they get you to where they are. 44 00:02:24,870 --> 00:02:28,510 And we'd love to learn a little more about your trajectory in 45 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,940 that sense. Sandra, So I know you were 46 00:02:30,950 --> 00:02:35,420 involved being Cardozo School of Law, Law Review, and you also 47 00:02:35,430 --> 00:02:37,920 interned at the Manhattan DA's office. 48 00:02:38,010 --> 00:02:42,140 And I was wondering how did those early experiences have 49 00:02:42,150 --> 00:02:44,540 influenced your career, your career goals? 50 00:02:44,710 --> 00:02:48,620 So I think, I think it would be actually sort of not quite 51 00:02:48,630 --> 00:02:51,260 accurate as a career goals because I think a lot of things 52 00:02:51,270 --> 00:02:55,580 happened as I went along by opportunity, interest, passion 53 00:02:55,590 --> 00:02:57,270 was being opened, doors being closed. 54 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,360 So I think my career goals were perhaps one thing, but it's 55 00:03:01,370 --> 00:03:05,530 come, you know, my trajectory has changed overtime based on a 56 00:03:05,540 --> 00:03:07,150 lot of factors. Sometimes there's personal 57 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,670 factors, wanting to balance and having children and work as a 58 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,850 lawyer. Some of it was interest and 59 00:03:12,860 --> 00:03:16,610 passion for the work. So I think my goals changed 60 00:03:16,620 --> 00:03:18,970 depending on what stage of life and what opportunities. 61 00:03:18,980 --> 00:03:21,650 And as I said, what doors open, but also what doors closed. 62 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,210 And I've heard that in some of your other guest podcasts as 63 00:03:24,220 --> 00:03:25,770 well. And I think that's probably one 64 00:03:25,780 --> 00:03:29,110 of the themes of all your podcasts is that sometimes 65 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,010 opportunities present in your career goals adjust and change 66 00:03:32,020 --> 00:03:34,520 as you go. I am interned at the Manhattan 67 00:03:34,530 --> 00:03:38,040 District Attorney's Office when I was in law school and I found 68 00:03:38,050 --> 00:03:40,530 a real passion for criminal law, really loved criminal law, 69 00:03:40,540 --> 00:03:44,560 really liked working in the prosecution side where you could 70 00:03:44,570 --> 00:03:48,840 be a voice for victims of crime and sort of advocate for victims 71 00:03:48,850 --> 00:03:50,720 of crime. But what I also saw at the 72 00:03:50,730 --> 00:03:55,000 district attorney's office was also a real belief in the 73 00:03:55,010 --> 00:03:59,360 integrity of the justice system. So not a determination to win, 74 00:03:59,370 --> 00:04:01,160 but a determination to do justice. 75 00:04:01,170 --> 00:04:03,700 And sometimes doing justice means you lose. 76 00:04:03,710 --> 00:04:07,100 And sometimes I felt that I really valued that. 77 00:04:07,110 --> 00:04:10,360 So when I graduated from law school, I actually couldn't go 78 00:04:10,370 --> 00:04:12,400 to the Manhattan DA's office because you had to be an 79 00:04:12,410 --> 00:04:15,510 American citizen, and I was a Canadian, so I wasn't able to do 80 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,029 that. So I went to a large law firm in 81 00:04:18,089 --> 00:04:21,920 New York City where I actually learned from some of the best 82 00:04:21,930 --> 00:04:23,960 lawyers. So while I didn't love the work 83 00:04:23,970 --> 00:04:27,060 that I was doing, I didn't feel passion about. 84 00:04:27,070 --> 00:04:30,020 I wasn't really a voice for anyone other than, you know, one 85 00:04:30,150 --> 00:04:32,830 large company against another. But what I did take out of that 86 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:36,440 experience is how to be a really good lawyer, how to be really 87 00:04:36,510 --> 00:04:40,200 thoughtful, how to really read the law, how to work really 88 00:04:40,210 --> 00:04:43,600 hard, understand details, a strong work ethic, and how to be 89 00:04:43,610 --> 00:04:46,830 smart about things. And so I took that experience 90 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:49,540 and when I moved to Massachusetts, I applied to 91 00:04:49,550 --> 00:04:51,520 become a prosecutor. They didn't have the same rule 92 00:04:51,530 --> 00:04:53,340 there that you had to be an American citizen. 93 00:04:53,390 --> 00:04:56,070 So I sort of didn't let go of my dream to working criminal law 94 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,540 and be a prosecutor and be a voice for victims of crime. 95 00:04:59,590 --> 00:05:04,990 I actually continue took that with me and when I was able to 96 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,450 have the opportunity to go work as a prosecutor, I did so I went 97 00:05:08,460 --> 00:05:11,670 to Boston, MA and worked as a prosecutor there. 98 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:16,130 And again, really felt like the integrity of what people did 99 00:05:16,140 --> 00:05:20,010 there, which was not just being the voice for victims of crime. 100 00:05:20,020 --> 00:05:22,630 And I did a lot of work with domestic violence victims, but 101 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,030 also wanting to really preserve the integrity of the system that 102 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,510 the justice system, it's important for all of society 103 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,270 that justice works in a fair and equitable way. 104 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,970 Meaning sometimes there isn't enough evidence to convict. 105 00:05:34,980 --> 00:05:38,690 I may know that this has occurred, but the system is 106 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:41,490 important for all of us to main the integrity to maintain the 107 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:44,590 integrity of the law. And so I really saw that in the 108 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,880 people I worked with, and that became sort of a passion for me, 109 00:05:47,890 --> 00:05:51,800 but also made that job really important to me as well, that 110 00:05:51,810 --> 00:05:56,860 our goals were both to prosecute and advocate, but also to make 111 00:05:56,870 --> 00:05:58,990 sure the system maintained its integrity. 112 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,610 And I think that integrity in the system is something I've 113 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:04,330 taken with me and all my jobs across the way, which is really 114 00:06:04,340 --> 00:06:07,640 believing in the integrity of a system, but also making change 115 00:06:07,650 --> 00:06:11,050 where you can to build integrity into a system or preserve 116 00:06:11,060 --> 00:06:13,890 integrity or to enhance integrity in a system. 117 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:17,230 So I think we do that every day in my job now in labour, where 118 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,930 the integrity of the system, where collective bargaining, 119 00:06:19,940 --> 00:06:23,450 employers and unions get to speak and negotiate and discuss 120 00:06:23,460 --> 00:06:27,690 and argue and sort of sometimes Duke it out over what is a fair 121 00:06:27,700 --> 00:06:30,370 workplace look like, what's equitable in a workplace. 122 00:06:30,380 --> 00:06:33,500 And help parties together come to make the best system that 123 00:06:33,510 --> 00:06:36,300 they possibly can within the constraints that there may be, 124 00:06:36,310 --> 00:06:39,360 whether that's financial, workforce opportunities, 125 00:06:39,370 --> 00:06:41,890 location, strength of the parties. 126 00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:44,860 So I think that's something that I took from my early days that I 127 00:06:44,870 --> 00:06:48,840 tried to preserve and have worked for in all the different 128 00:06:48,910 --> 00:06:51,340 parts of my career. Well, that sounds amazing. 129 00:06:51,420 --> 00:06:54,360 First of all, something that I, that I love and that has been a 130 00:06:54,370 --> 00:06:57,540 theme in the podcast is really hearing what people can do with 131 00:06:57,550 --> 00:06:59,950 a law degree. It's really opportunities are 132 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:03,200 limitless. And there's of course a lot of a 133 00:07:03,210 --> 00:07:06,420 lot that happens between, you know, having that dream job or 134 00:07:06,430 --> 00:07:09,560 having that career you always expected to. 135 00:07:09,710 --> 00:07:13,660 But also I just find it fascinating the wide range of 136 00:07:13,670 --> 00:07:16,740 things you can do. And it's being amazing to meet 137 00:07:16,790 --> 00:07:20,620 so many lawyers that have really made those plans come true. 138 00:07:20,630 --> 00:07:24,500 And considering these experience you just mentioned about being 139 00:07:24,510 --> 00:07:27,860 an assistant District Attorney in Massachusetts, I'd love to 140 00:07:27,870 --> 00:07:30,910 hear a little bit, you know, if you have some stories or or you 141 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,220 know, some points about what are some of your most formative 142 00:07:34,270 --> 00:07:37,540 moments from that time? I think a few things, one is 143 00:07:37,550 --> 00:07:40,810 just the passion with which people around me cared about 144 00:07:40,820 --> 00:07:42,620 their work and felt about their work. 145 00:07:42,630 --> 00:07:45,800 And really when you care and love your work, it doesn't work 146 00:07:45,810 --> 00:07:47,960 for you. You know, when you really have a 147 00:07:47,970 --> 00:07:50,900 passion and care about things, you come in every day excited. 148 00:07:50,910 --> 00:07:53,140 You're, you have an open mind about things. 149 00:07:53,230 --> 00:07:54,910 You want to be there and be present. 150 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,950 So, and, and I think it's a privilege to do that both 151 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,320 personally, it's a privilege to be in a workplace where you have 152 00:08:00,330 --> 00:08:03,990 that, but also for me, it's a privilege too. 153 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,350 And part of that was the support and helping my spouse that I 154 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,780 could work in the public sector. These career goals are usually 155 00:08:11,110 --> 00:08:14,560 in conjunction with what's going on in your personal life too. 156 00:08:14,570 --> 00:08:18,010 Who is there to support you? And that can include both people 157 00:08:18,020 --> 00:08:22,060 helping you as you raise children or helping you figure 158 00:08:22,070 --> 00:08:26,500 out together at different points who is the primary breadwinner, 159 00:08:26,550 --> 00:08:29,630 who's the primary caregiver. And so all of those things, as 160 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,049 we talked about what are career goals, those things change and 161 00:08:32,059 --> 00:08:36,429 adapt as you think about that. So I was able to follow some of 162 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,679 the passion I had to be a prosecutor because I had a, a 163 00:08:39,690 --> 00:08:42,860 great spouse who we together could financially manage. 164 00:08:42,909 --> 00:08:45,240 So I think it it was that allowed me and gave me the 165 00:08:45,250 --> 00:08:47,970 privilege to be able to be a voice for victims of crime 166 00:08:47,980 --> 00:08:50,650 because when I went to become a prosecutor, I'd barely made a 167 00:08:50,660 --> 00:08:53,210 living wage. I could barely and I eventually 168 00:08:53,220 --> 00:08:55,170 laughed because I couldn't afford daycare. 169 00:08:55,180 --> 00:08:58,790 My day cross were essentially higher than what I was being 170 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:04,370 paid when you combined like my, you know, gas driving pickup and 171 00:09:04,380 --> 00:09:06,890 some of the, you know, dry cleaning for your clothes or 172 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:09,430 your suits. It actually I was I was losing 173 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,210 money and that's ultimately, sadly why I left and that job 174 00:09:12,220 --> 00:09:14,750 along with we moved back up to Canada, which is where I was 175 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,770 born and raised and for family reasons. 176 00:09:16,780 --> 00:09:19,270 But so I think, you know, there are a lot of factors that go 177 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:20,970 into it, but I have some great moments. 178 00:09:20,980 --> 00:09:23,270 I mean, one of the things I always learned is, you know, 179 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,370 don't you know, know all your questions, do your homework, you 180 00:09:27,380 --> 00:09:30,100 know, never ask that question where there's a surprise answer. 181 00:09:30,110 --> 00:09:32,350 And I have trouble with that a little bit because I'm always 182 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,130 curious and ask more questions. So I really had to learn how to 183 00:09:35,140 --> 00:09:39,290 restrain, do my homework and learn how not to ask that 184 00:09:39,300 --> 00:09:42,370 question, that something cross examination, for example. 185 00:09:42,420 --> 00:09:45,150 So same thing here. Do your homework, know 186 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,790 everything, go into a meeting, be open minded, but go into a 187 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:53,750 meeting or a file and have done, you know, there's no shortcuts 188 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,600 to the hard work and preparation. 189 00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:58,790 So know the answer to the question before it's asked, but 190 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,680 be open minded about the answer. Even in this interview, like how 191 00:10:01,690 --> 00:10:04,590 we're talking that it may take you in a different direction. 192 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,430 So listen and go in that direction if need be, but as I 193 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,630 said, there's no shortcuts for hard work and the preparation 194 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,790 and knowing the answers to the question before you ask them. 195 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,690 And that's a cross examination role that any or assistant 196 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:20,430 District Attorney will tell you, but something I really learned 197 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,390 while I was there. Well, that sounds so 198 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,910 interesting. You did mention this transition 199 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,790 from being a prosecutor in the US to come and living in 200 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,130 practicing in Canada. How was that like in the 201 00:10:31,140 --> 00:10:32,170 beginning? Absolutely. 202 00:10:32,180 --> 00:10:34,550 And I think this is where it comes in, where especially as a 203 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:37,530 female lawyer, like always trying to balance having 204 00:10:37,540 --> 00:10:41,680 children and a family. If you do choose to go and not 205 00:10:41,690 --> 00:10:44,700 direction and have children and also balance having a career and 206 00:10:44,710 --> 00:10:46,760 staying in your careers. I'm your back to Canada for 207 00:10:46,770 --> 00:10:48,540 family reasons. My husband and I moved up here. 208 00:10:48,550 --> 00:10:51,440 We had our my daughter at that time who was three. 209 00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:54,200 One of the issues I had is we were both litigators. 210 00:10:54,210 --> 00:10:56,240 And so I was a prosecutor down in the States. 211 00:10:56,250 --> 00:10:59,010 My husband was in litigation and we we were struggling to 212 00:10:59,020 --> 00:11:02,060 navigate that together if we were both in court, not having 213 00:11:02,070 --> 00:11:05,370 backup if our daughter was sick. So again, your career goals 214 00:11:05,380 --> 00:11:08,300 shifting and so my goal shifted that I wanted to continue work, 215 00:11:08,310 --> 00:11:11,160 do something interesting, but I could we couldn't sustain too 216 00:11:11,170 --> 00:11:13,580 litigators and having a small child. 217 00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:17,710 So I started looking around and I came and ended up being 218 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,820 adjudicator. I interviewed a number of places 219 00:11:19,830 --> 00:11:23,070 and ended up working as adjudicator, the Workplace 220 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,710 Safety Insurance Appeals Tribunal, and I had grown up as 221 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,210 a child. My father was a labour 222 00:11:29,220 --> 00:11:31,910 arbitrator, so I really loved labour. 223 00:11:32,590 --> 00:11:35,100 I'd really liked it as a, you know, I sort of grew up with it. 224 00:11:35,110 --> 00:11:38,360 It was comfortable place for me. And when I was, you know, 8 or 225 00:11:38,370 --> 00:11:41,100 9, my dad would come to the, you know, Friday night, we had 226 00:11:41,110 --> 00:11:43,200 Shabbat dinners where my family is Jewish. 227 00:11:43,210 --> 00:11:46,480 We had about dinners and my dad would give us cases to and 228 00:11:46,490 --> 00:11:49,360 present to us and we sort of discuss and argue. 229 00:11:49,370 --> 00:11:52,200 So he'd say something like, you know, this long term employee 230 00:11:52,210 --> 00:11:56,460 was fired because she stole, you know, a $2.00, you know, a $2.00 231 00:11:56,470 --> 00:11:58,640 item from the grocery shelves. What are the interests of the 232 00:11:58,650 --> 00:12:01,790 employers in maintaining, you know, a place where people can't 233 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,220 steal? But what about an individual who 234 00:12:04,230 --> 00:12:06,960 maybe doesn't have job prospects, is in their 50s and, 235 00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:08,960 you know, has worked for 25 years at a store? 236 00:12:08,970 --> 00:12:12,520 What would you do? So we were always challenged 237 00:12:12,530 --> 00:12:14,770 like that, which is maybe why I ended up in law. 238 00:12:14,780 --> 00:12:17,590 But then when it came back up to Canada sort of labour, I had 239 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,010 this opportunity to go work at this tribunal, work in where the 240 00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:23,800 issues were, workplace injuries and return to work issues. 241 00:12:23,810 --> 00:12:26,430 And so that was a natural home, but it was also partly based on 242 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,770 my personal circumstances of navigating being a mother and A2 243 00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:33,130 parents who were working. And so that became my home for 244 00:12:33,140 --> 00:12:36,150 13 years and I loved that work. And again, same thing, the 245 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,590 opportunity to change and impact people's lives and to think 246 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,990 about people's lives and hear people's lives and be invited 247 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,900 into people's lives. And often in a situation where 248 00:12:44,910 --> 00:12:48,260 nobody wanted to be, which is someone, you know, had lost the 249 00:12:48,270 --> 00:12:50,610 opportunity in a workplace because of a workplace injury 250 00:12:50,620 --> 00:12:53,020 that prevented them from returning to work or how could 251 00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:56,200 they return work. So again, sort of marrying 252 00:12:56,260 --> 00:13:00,590 labour with passion or thinking about how people function in 253 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,210 day-to-day life and how things impact them, whether it be crime 254 00:13:04,220 --> 00:13:06,690 or a labour in an injury on a workplace. 255 00:13:06,780 --> 00:13:10,910 And how do we as lawyers within this or Judicator ours or people 256 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,970 within the system, how do we think about the systems and the 257 00:13:13,980 --> 00:13:16,430 workplace and get to where we need to go? 258 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:19,310 Preserving the integrity of the system, but also recognizing the 259 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,510 individual. I'm thinking about how the that 260 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,430 individuals impacted. So even today in our work today, 261 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,890 when we work on collective agreements, we think about 262 00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:29,870 day-to-day, we hear about affordability issues, whether 263 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,510 people how they can afford to their rent, things we see in the 264 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,370 paper. But then we see that in real 265 00:13:35,380 --> 00:13:38,600 time, you know how if people need to go to food banks, what 266 00:13:38,610 --> 00:13:40,660 they're making minimum wage, whether they're working 267 00:13:40,670 --> 00:13:43,790 conditions. So just always thinking both 268 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,200 macro, like the integrity of the system, like collective 269 00:13:47,210 --> 00:13:50,860 bargaining as a freedom of association charter right 270 00:13:50,910 --> 00:13:53,520 between unions and employers, but also the micro level. 271 00:13:53,710 --> 00:13:57,180 How is this person day-to-day managing on their wages? 272 00:13:57,250 --> 00:13:59,380 What is their workplace like? What are their conditions of 273 00:13:59,390 --> 00:14:00,940 work? And so I had the privilege to do 274 00:14:00,950 --> 00:14:02,640 that at the tribunal and then here. 275 00:14:02,650 --> 00:14:06,990 And so moving from criminal to labour was a huge learning curve 276 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,280 from an administrative law. And again, as I said, there's no 277 00:14:09,290 --> 00:14:10,980 shortcuts for just doing your work. 278 00:14:10,990 --> 00:14:13,990 Head down, working hard, learning the statutes, learning 279 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,800 the laws, thinking about the issues, learning the policies, 280 00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:20,360 but maintaining sort of that idea of like thinking about the 281 00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:23,140 larger integrity of systems, but how does any individual fit 282 00:14:23,150 --> 00:14:26,440 within that system and, and how does that work within the law? 283 00:14:26,450 --> 00:14:29,730 So I think I've been privilege to do that in criminal, in 284 00:14:29,740 --> 00:14:33,940 Labour and so while the fields were completely different, the 285 00:14:33,950 --> 00:14:37,430 ideas were the same for me. Well, that's fantastic. 286 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,730 I, I find it fascinating how you know, you find those same skills 287 00:14:40,740 --> 00:14:45,260 or the same backbone of being a good professional being really 288 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,790 the same regardless of which area of the law you end up being 289 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,200 at. So I love that you commented on 290 00:14:50,210 --> 00:14:52,250 that. And we did start, start this 291 00:14:52,260 --> 00:14:55,080 conversation, talk a little bit about talking a little bit about 292 00:14:55,090 --> 00:14:58,330 your experience and, and your current role as well. 293 00:14:58,340 --> 00:15:02,160 You're now the director of Dispute Resolution Services and 294 00:15:02,580 --> 00:15:05,770 you did mention a few of the things that you do through the 295 00:15:05,780 --> 00:15:08,690 podcast today. But I'm just wondering what does 296 00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:11,350 a day-to-day basis look like for you? 297 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:15,050 So the best part about my job is there is no day-to-day. 298 00:15:15,060 --> 00:15:17,190 Every day is different. And that's one thing I love and 299 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,590 some people are maybe thrive on having like knowing every day 300 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,950 they're doing similar things. But I think people in my job, 301 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,970 mediators, labour negotiators thrive on things being thrown at 302 00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:30,790 you, being able to think on your feet and everything being 303 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,930 different. So I might be one day in a 304 00:15:32,940 --> 00:15:37,010 labour negotiation with a union and an employer negotiating the 305 00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:38,510 terms of their collective agreement. 306 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,750 So negotiating wages, benefits, vacation days. 307 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,590 I might another day be dealing with a legal objections, legal 308 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,790 issues. Another day, I'll be getting a 309 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,280 call from a mediator and talking through strike issues. 310 00:15:51,290 --> 00:15:54,200 How do we bring a party, a group back who are out on strike? 311 00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:57,540 On Friday, I spoke to someone about a group that's on strike 312 00:15:57,550 --> 00:16:00,540 in the province and thinking about and talking through how do 313 00:16:00,550 --> 00:16:03,400 we think about getting them back off strike and how do we work 314 00:16:03,410 --> 00:16:08,620 the employer and the union to think about what next steps look 315 00:16:08,630 --> 00:16:10,180 like? On any given day, I might be 316 00:16:10,190 --> 00:16:15,240 talking to someone about how to manage or navigate the politics 317 00:16:15,250 --> 00:16:19,640 of the union or how to navigate the politics of an employer in 318 00:16:19,650 --> 00:16:23,790 terms of US mediating or trying to get to a deal but addressing 319 00:16:23,850 --> 00:16:26,510 sort of political issues. I had one file where the 320 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,460 politics were someone would come to me and say, you know, we're 321 00:16:29,470 --> 00:16:32,430 trying to work towards this. And another person on the same 322 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,310 team would come to me and say, well, you were trying to work 323 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,050 towards this, but don't tell the other person. 324 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,830 So again, also trying to behind the scenes figure out how do we 325 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,630 put these pieces together to get through the same goal, But 326 00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:43,520 sometimes people have different interests. 327 00:16:43,530 --> 00:16:47,430 So another day I might be also dealing with just as the 328 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,830 director of a team working on, we're working on digitizing, 329 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,580 working with my Co director on digitizing our department, which 330 00:16:54,590 --> 00:16:56,590 is mostly done right. What does that look like? 331 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,850 How do you integrate labour law into the digital reality? 332 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:02,390 We'll be talking about, you know, summer internships, 333 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,270 dealing with HR, someone who's sick, who goes out sick, How do 334 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,609 we manage their workload? So what our pilot projects 335 00:17:08,619 --> 00:17:11,470 thinking about what are things we can do connecting or reaching 336 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,839 out to stakeholders to figure out to do problem solving. 337 00:17:14,849 --> 00:17:18,119 We get an e-mail, there's a big issue like calling and reaching 338 00:17:18,130 --> 00:17:20,339 out to that stakeholder. How do we problem solve? 339 00:17:20,410 --> 00:17:23,270 So another big thing I I talked to young lawyers about is you 340 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,359 have the law and you have the practical. 341 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,569 So how do you marry those two, right? 342 00:17:27,579 --> 00:17:30,490 And sometimes, you know, people just want to focus on the law 343 00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:32,460 and some people want to focus on the practical, but how do you 344 00:17:33,370 --> 00:17:36,760 Mary the law and practical? So in terms of efficiency? 345 00:17:36,770 --> 00:17:38,700 So example, someone calls and says, well, I know I have to go 346 00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:40,480 through this step, this step, this step. 347 00:17:40,730 --> 00:17:42,720 And we'll say, OK, you can go through this in this step, but 348 00:17:42,730 --> 00:17:45,720 maybe we can find a way to consolidate some of those steps 349 00:17:45,730 --> 00:17:48,760 for you as a stakeholder. So we always reach out to our 350 00:17:48,770 --> 00:17:50,540 stakeholders for problem solving. 351 00:17:50,550 --> 00:17:54,220 People e-mail us about issues or problems and we try to with it. 352 00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:57,020 We have sort of a within our group, like a 24 hour policy. 353 00:17:57,030 --> 00:17:59,700 So often people say to me, I never get a call from someone in 354 00:17:59,710 --> 00:18:01,700 government or I've never spoken to the director. 355 00:18:01,750 --> 00:18:05,120 But I think problem solving is a lot of what I do, just in 356 00:18:05,130 --> 00:18:08,600 different layers and levels. But that's one of the things I 357 00:18:08,610 --> 00:18:11,260 love about my day-to-day job is I'm essentially doing problem 358 00:18:11,270 --> 00:18:13,990 solving. But it can be a legal issue, it 359 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,050 can be a labour issue, it can be a strike issue, it can be a, a, 360 00:18:18,140 --> 00:18:20,070 a term of a collector group agreement. 361 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,650 It can be an objection to an appointment of a mediator, 362 00:18:23,660 --> 00:18:26,330 objection to We work with the arbitrator community. 363 00:18:26,380 --> 00:18:29,370 So I think that's what I really like is that every day is 364 00:18:29,380 --> 00:18:30,290 slightly. Different. 365 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:33,460 That sounds fantastic. And you did mention a few 366 00:18:33,470 --> 00:18:37,400 examples of the disputes that you help and solve, but I'm 367 00:18:37,410 --> 00:18:41,250 wondering if there is, you know, a few specific types that you 368 00:18:41,260 --> 00:18:44,080 deal most with. And then also, how do you, you 369 00:18:44,090 --> 00:18:49,450 know, use your team to resolve them the most fair and efficient 370 00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:51,640 way possible? So I think the best answer to 371 00:18:51,650 --> 00:18:55,170 that is so in order to legally strike in Ontario, you have to 372 00:18:55,180 --> 00:18:58,800 come through my division. So what we do, an example would 373 00:18:58,810 --> 00:19:03,170 be parties would come to us to help them negotiate or mediate. 374 00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:06,570 Most collective agreements expire and a collective 375 00:19:06,580 --> 00:19:09,090 agreement is essentially a contract about your conditions 376 00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:10,770 of work. So it would include your wages, 377 00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:14,190 your benefits, your pay, your grievance procedure. 378 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,440 And in Ontario, 72% of the public sector is unionized, so 379 00:19:18,450 --> 00:19:21,010 we will deal with any large public sector union. 380 00:19:21,020 --> 00:19:24,980 So that would include teachers, nurses, it'll include all your 381 00:19:24,990 --> 00:19:28,890 municipalities or unionized. So any city would be, you know, 382 00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:31,450 city of Toronto, city of Oakville, city of Richmond Hill, 383 00:19:31,620 --> 00:19:35,710 City of Hamilton, our united. And so we work to resolve the 384 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,330 terms of the collective agreement. 385 00:19:37,340 --> 00:19:39,950 And sometimes that can involve, as you said, strikes that 386 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,350 parties cannot come to an agreement about the terms of the 387 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,380 agreement and the union will go out on strike and the import, 388 00:19:45,390 --> 00:19:48,010 the employer will lock out the union nuts. 389 00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:51,310 Part of our processes and part of what we do day-to-day. 390 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:54,650 So we might be working with our job large group. 391 00:19:54,660 --> 00:19:57,730 It could be a large municipality and all the workers for that 392 00:19:57,740 --> 00:20:02,430 municipality, or it could be a car manufacturer or small 393 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,280 company. And we had one file where the 394 00:20:04,290 --> 00:20:06,780 mediator. One of the big issues was that 395 00:20:06,830 --> 00:20:09,560 the union was a small group of people, but they wanted a coffee 396 00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:11,000 maker. That was they wanted it in their 397 00:20:11,010 --> 00:20:14,280 collective agreement, but we can also deal with a municipality 398 00:20:14,290 --> 00:20:18,780 that might have 20,000 employees and the the issues of like what 399 00:20:18,790 --> 00:20:23,390 are their work conditions. So every day it's resolving 400 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,400 disputes, but essentially at the end of the day, the dispute is 401 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,570 how do you get or persuade two parties that they have a similar 402 00:20:30,580 --> 00:20:34,290 interest or to minimize or avoid a work disruption, whether it be 403 00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:38,190 a lockout by the employer of the employees or a strike by the 404 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,910 union members. So a lot of what we do on a 405 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,270 day-to-day basis is that dispute resolution which we talked 406 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:46,920 about. How do you resolve disputes 407 00:20:46,930 --> 00:20:50,570 which can be anything as small as like a coffee maker to very 408 00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:53,230 real issues that you will have seen in strikes across the 409 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,330 province or threats of strikes across the province that you 410 00:20:56,340 --> 00:20:59,190 would see in the newspaper on a daily or weekly basis. 411 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,590 So you know, last year Metro, the grocery store went on 412 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,350 strike. So working with those parties to 413 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:08,400 think about how do we bring people back off strike and then 414 00:21:08,410 --> 00:21:11,750 also to prevent strikes or work disruptions on a day-to-day 415 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,770 basis that may be in the news or may not be in the news. 416 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,550 And that can be with bus drivers or it can be with teachers or as 417 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,230 I said, it can be with a small middle car company or 418 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,170 manufacturing company. Or I worked on a file that was 419 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,530 they made airplane parts for airplanes and they provided 420 00:21:29,540 --> 00:21:31,990 airplane parts, for example, to the Government of Canada. 421 00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:35,220 So you know that file may not have made it in the news, but we 422 00:21:35,230 --> 00:21:38,730 worked with them to minimize or prevent and work disruption in. 423 00:21:38,740 --> 00:21:42,410 That sounds incredible. And if I may ask a final 424 00:21:42,420 --> 00:21:44,530 question to finish our episode today. 425 00:21:44,540 --> 00:21:48,650 Sandra, you've been involved in so many different fronts, but 426 00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:53,630 also in training new generations of adjudicators, speaking at the 427 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,670 Canadian Bar Association and many other organizations. 428 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,430 If I may ask you, what kind of advice would you give to those 429 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,210 entering the legal profession today? 430 00:22:02,260 --> 00:22:06,010 So I once I saw a leader speak about this and I've sort of 431 00:22:06,020 --> 00:22:09,070 adopted some of her thoughts and then adopted it to my own. 432 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,450 And so I'm going to sort of give you my four or five because I 433 00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:15,130 heard you ask this question and other podcasts. 434 00:22:15,140 --> 00:22:17,650 And so I thought a little bit about it and you sent me this 435 00:22:17,660 --> 00:22:20,990 question and I don't have. So I'll give you what I I think 436 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,730 or what my best lessons are, but I think everyone has to come to 437 00:22:23,740 --> 00:22:25,790 find their own lessons for themselves. 438 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,530 But I'll give you some of my best lessons, which are one to 439 00:22:28,540 --> 00:22:30,190 surround yourself with smart people. 440 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,710 Always surround yourself with smart people and to protect 441 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,860 them, to look out for them, surround yourself with smart 442 00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:37,870 people and then go to bat for them, advocate for them and 443 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,930 listen to them and have them challenge you. 444 00:22:40,380 --> 00:22:43,100 My second is to collaborate. Not just collaborate, like can 445 00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:46,270 you look at this or review this, but really collaborate from the 446 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,890 ground, throw it an idea and have them really push back on 447 00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:51,610 what does that look like? What does that mean? 448 00:22:51,620 --> 00:22:53,830 How do we manifest this? So collaborate in a really 449 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,090 genuine a deep way with different people and different 450 00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:59,610 ideas. Third is I really say, I mean, I 451 00:22:59,620 --> 00:23:01,790 know I've heard people on some of your podcasts and a lot of 452 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,990 people say do things outside your comfort zone people use or 453 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,640 outside your strength. I, one of the things I actually 454 00:23:09,650 --> 00:23:13,170 learned and I heard this woman speak about is I actually used 455 00:23:13,180 --> 00:23:15,550 to say that to people. And now I actually tell young, 456 00:23:16,390 --> 00:23:20,110 young people or young lawyers, I say actually find what you're 457 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:23,340 good at and keep doing it. It doesn't mean you shouldn't go 458 00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:26,180 outside your comfort zone once in a while, but actually find 459 00:23:26,190 --> 00:23:29,320 what you're really good at and keep doing it and get better at. 460 00:23:29,330 --> 00:23:33,620 Because I think ultimately I was good at writing, reading, 461 00:23:33,630 --> 00:23:36,820 talking, relationship building, and that's where I landed. 462 00:23:36,830 --> 00:23:40,120 So I think if you figure out what you're good at and keep 463 00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:43,100 doing it and getting better at, that's actually where you will 464 00:23:43,170 --> 00:23:45,650 end up. So I now encourage people to 465 00:23:45,770 --> 00:23:49,890 spend more time finding what they're good at and keep doing 466 00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:52,460 it and building those strengths, then pushing themselves outside 467 00:23:52,470 --> 00:23:54,510 their comfort zone. That's not to say you shouldn't, 468 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:59,190 but focus on where you're really good at and keep doing those 469 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,690 things. And then, you know, seek, and 470 00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:04,430 this goes back a bit to collaboration, but seek diverse 471 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,410 perspective, ideas and personalities. 472 00:24:07,420 --> 00:24:10,470 And I really do that. I really, really seek out people 473 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,470 who are really walk in all different kinds of life and I 474 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,690 listen to them, whether it be someone who works in, I work a 475 00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:19,710 lot with people in construction, which is something very far from 476 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,890 my background, but I really seek out their opinions and thoughts 477 00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:24,230 on things. And then I'll go talk to a 478 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,080 faculty member at a university if we're doing university. 479 00:24:27,090 --> 00:24:30,270 And then I surround myself with different people have different 480 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,090 ideas and different perspectives, and I really seek 481 00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:36,030 out their their thoughts. So really seek them out, but 482 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,540 really don't just seek them out for sort of a superficial, but 483 00:24:40,550 --> 00:24:43,260 to really understand and hear and challenge yourself because 484 00:24:43,270 --> 00:24:46,180 then you'll be a better leader if you have diverse opinions, 485 00:24:46,190 --> 00:24:47,870 diverse ideas. And I'm sure you've heard that 486 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,680 on the podcast from lots of people, but really do it and 487 00:24:50,690 --> 00:24:52,900 really doing it and surrounding yourself by people who really 488 00:24:52,910 --> 00:24:55,960 are different from you is something that can be a 489 00:24:55,970 --> 00:24:58,400 challenge for many people. It's really easy to, let's say, 490 00:24:58,410 --> 00:25:00,680 go to a law firm and be surrounded by lawyers. 491 00:25:00,690 --> 00:25:04,200 And I really challenge myself to be surrounded by, you know, 492 00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:06,700 younger people, older people, people are in law, people are in 493 00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:09,920 business, people are in construction, people who are and 494 00:25:09,930 --> 00:25:12,400 blue collar, white collar, pink collar, however you want to call 495 00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:14,340 it. Because that really makes me 496 00:25:14,350 --> 00:25:16,760 better at what I do. And the last thing I would say 497 00:25:16,770 --> 00:25:20,060 is really have fun and enjoy. You know, we laugh a lot in this 498 00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:21,010 job. It's really hard. 499 00:25:21,020 --> 00:25:23,160 This job, we do really hard things where in people's 500 00:25:23,170 --> 00:25:27,300 workplaces doing very, very hard things everyday, hearing people 501 00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:30,100 can't afford to eat, they may lose their paychecks if they go 502 00:25:30,110 --> 00:25:32,880 on strike and employer can't afford our losing business, 503 00:25:32,890 --> 00:25:35,590 can't afford to maintain their business out of certain level. 504 00:25:35,910 --> 00:25:39,960 But we spend a lot of time with each other sort of finding humor 505 00:25:40,010 --> 00:25:44,700 at things in life that happen and laughing and on my team and 506 00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:48,440 joking about each other and our strengths, our weaknesses. 507 00:25:48,450 --> 00:25:51,020 And I think when you love and care about your work, you can 508 00:25:51,030 --> 00:25:54,080 find that. But that also allows you to be 509 00:25:54,090 --> 00:25:57,370 stronger, that you take your work very seriously, but you 510 00:25:57,380 --> 00:25:59,330 don't always take yourself so seriously. 511 00:25:59,370 --> 00:26:02,440 That's sort of a long way of saying enjoy and laugh at 512 00:26:02,450 --> 00:26:05,310 yourself a little bit and laugh at sometimes the circumstances 513 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,960 you find yourself in. But also enjoy, really enjoy 514 00:26:07,970 --> 00:26:10,000 what you do and have fun. I love that. 515 00:26:10,010 --> 00:26:12,880 I really appreciate you taking the time to sharing those 516 00:26:12,890 --> 00:26:15,040 insights. I feel like they can definitely 517 00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:18,320 inspire a lot of our listeners and, and especially like what 518 00:26:18,330 --> 00:26:20,500 you said about focusing on what you're good at. 519 00:26:20,510 --> 00:26:23,580 I, I, I really resonate with that sometimes. 520 00:26:23,650 --> 00:26:27,190 I, I've heard about schools that sometimes at school, if you 521 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,930 don't do good at math, your parents will put you in extra 522 00:26:30,940 --> 00:26:32,990 math classes so you can level up. 523 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,010 But then sometimes you're so good at the arts or literature 524 00:26:36,050 --> 00:26:38,070 and you don't get any extra work on that. 525 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,350 So it, it might be just the key to focus on what you're good at. 526 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:43,130 And I just love that you brought that up. 527 00:26:43,540 --> 00:26:44,570 Thank. You, yeah. 528 00:26:44,580 --> 00:26:46,320 And I see you, Clado. I see you're really good at 529 00:26:46,330 --> 00:26:48,650 reaching out to people in networking and relationship 530 00:26:48,660 --> 00:26:51,680 building and thinking about people and how people function. 531 00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:53,310 And I would say, do you keep doing that? 532 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,940 Like find in the law where you're good at that, you know, 533 00:26:55,950 --> 00:26:58,550 you'll figure out the law piece, you'll do that hard work. 534 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:03,110 But you have a skill that I really see and I saw and partly 535 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:07,140 why I reached out to you. So I would say keep doing that, 536 00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:09,740 whatever that is, whether it's project building or connecting 537 00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:12,440 to people or relationship building, because that is your, 538 00:27:12,450 --> 00:27:14,760 and I heard someone say superpower on one of your other 539 00:27:14,770 --> 00:27:16,820 podcasts, but that is one of your superpowers. 540 00:27:16,830 --> 00:27:19,630 So again, going back to what I said is keep doing what you're 541 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,160 good at and build that. And you already have that in in 542 00:27:23,170 --> 00:27:27,180 so many in such a large amount and you will be successful if 543 00:27:27,190 --> 00:27:30,080 you continue to do that and identify that for yourself. 544 00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:32,600 I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, and thank you 545 00:27:32,610 --> 00:27:35,010 for taking the time to be in the podcast today. 546 00:27:35,110 --> 00:27:37,820 Thank you, our listeners, for listening to this episode, and 547 00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:40,520 we'll see you on the next one. Thank you.