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Welcome to your studying law 
Around the world. 

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I'm Claudio Claus. 
In each episode, I talk with 

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lawyers, law students, and 
professors from different parts 

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of the world to talk about legal
education, careers, and what the

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profession looks like in real 
life. 

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We talk about the hard parts, 
the surprises, and the decisions

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that shaped their paths. 
Whether you're planning to study

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abroad, thinking about working 
in another legal system, or just

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curious about how law works 
around the world, this podcast 

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is for you. 
This episode is sponsored by 

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Contender. 
How are you doing on LinkedIn? 

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If you're like 99% of lawyers, 
your answer is not great, which 

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makes sense. 
You learned LinkedIn as the 

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place to stash a digital resume 
and share firm dressers, so no 

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wonder your LinkedIn presence is
somewhere between vanilla and 

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nonexistent. 
But I've got good news. 

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Since we all learned LinkedIn 
the wrong way, it's pretty easy 

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to attract more positive 
attention for you or your 

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business. 
Since 2022, Contender has been 

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the premier agency helping 
lawyers go from invisible train 

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possible to ignore on LinkedIn. 
To learn more, check out 

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www.contenderllc.com. 
Tell them Claudio sent you. 

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Hello, everybody. 
Welcome to another episode of 

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Studying Law around the World. 
And she today I got the chance 

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to speak with Spencer May, who's
at the University of Arizona and

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just sharing lots of wonderful 
content on LinkedIn and being 

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really active and just giving a 
good example of things that you 

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can do while you're in law 
school. 

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So I'm always happy to talk with
law students and people who are 

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going through their education. 
Thank you so much for joining us

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today, Spencer. 
Yeah, I'm looking. 

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Forward to it. 
Thank you so much. 

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Really appreciate it. 
And to start off our episode 

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today, could you introduce 
yourself to your audience? 

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Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

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So very quickly. 
I was born and raised in Central

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California. 
Both my parents are educators, 

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so going after higher education 
or or secondary education was, 

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you know, something that wasn't 
too far away for me. 

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I met my wife in Provo, UT while
we were both undergrads at BYU. 

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And her family has very deep 
roots out in Arizona. 

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So there was really not much of 
A competition as far as whether 

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we were going to settle in 
Fresno, CA where I grew up, or 

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Gilbert, AZ where she grew up. 
I was a very easy sell. 

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So I am now, I'm a second year 
law student at the University of

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Arizona Law School, like you 
mentioned, planning to practice 

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in Phoenix after graduation. 
And I'm spending my 2:00, well 

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summer with a home builder up in
Scottsdale. 

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So I I do my best to work all 
the freeways I can up and down. 

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Arizona. 
That's amazing. 

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There you go. 
And if I may ask you start off, 

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why did you choose law school in
the 1st place and what are you 

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hoping to build with your 
career? 

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Sure, those people can generally
pinpoint 1 moment of, of 

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clarity, light bulb moment where
they knew that they needed to be

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a lawyer, that they needed to go
to law school. 

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For me, I think it was more of a
sunrise that gradually over time

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and emerged just as the right 
and the only choice. 

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And then I had good experiences,
found good mentors, got good 

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advice, had positive feedback in
the LSAT application. 

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And then in the start of law 
school process, as far as what I

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want to, what I was hoping to 
build with a career in law, I 

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think I saw it as a logical or 
or traditional kind of first 

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step into building a career and 
building a life that that was 

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tangible and I could wrap my 
mind around. 

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So here I am today. 
Fantastic. 

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Well, I'm very happy to hear 
that. 

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And I, I really like what you 
said about how that clarity 

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comes about. 
I think it's the experience of 

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most people, to be honest, that 
you're just not, you know, born 

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or since kindergarten knowing 
you want to be a lawyer. 

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And I love to hear that 
sincerity as well. 

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And you've been sharing a lot of
things on, on LinkedIn, you've 

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been open about starting law 
school with a newborn at home 

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and what that experience has 
taught you so far about, you 

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know, tying priorities, your 
identity as well. 

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Yeah, I'll start at the end. 
So your last point that you 

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asked about is, is identity. 
And that was the biggest shift 

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for me. 
I think anyone that that weeks 

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to start on a legal career would
probably say that they're either

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extrinsically or intrinsically 
motivated that a lot of of 

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people in the law attach worth 
or attach value to prestige or 

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or other people's definitions of
success. 

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Or me holding that 7 lbs, six 
ounce, 21 1/2 inch little boy in

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my arms was a very clarifying 
experience because I understood 

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that that ultimately the 
decisions that I had had some 

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serious weight. 
And and I've experienced A 

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mindset shift where I needed to 
root my identity more firmly in 

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my faith and my family and what 
what they thought of me. 

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And that's not to say that that 
I changed or lowered or altered 

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my like expectations for my 
career or what I wanted to do, 

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but my primary thought and 
priority needed to be, you know,

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what my wife and children 
thought of me. 

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And, and I don't think that you 
have to sacrifice what you do 

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all day or, or the like 
aspirations you have for your 

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career. 
I do really think that you could

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have it all. 
And so I'm in pursuit of that. 

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Those comments you just made, 
they're just incredible. 

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I just have a bigger and bigger 
admiration for people who can 

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handle all of it. 
And as I step into the the 

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fatherhood you, it's being just 
an incredible way to see how all

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of these things intersect and 
just give you some extra layer 

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of admiration for people who do 
it all. 

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I've shared a couple of times 
here in the podcast before, but 

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one of my big goals on on doing 
my degree here in Toronto was 

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you grow that network and be 
able to talk to more people and 

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all of that. 
And a big motivation was people 

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who were already doing that, you
know, who are sharing their 

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experiences and you're being one
of those people, Spencer. 

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So I'd love to hear a little 
more about your strategies and 

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when when did you first decide 
to start posting to start 

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sharing your trajectory and how 
everything would go? 

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And did you have high 
expectations at the time? 

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Did you post you know if a high 
level of strategy or you kind of

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learned on the way? 
Sure. 

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First of all, congratulations. 
I know you're a new father and 

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you guys have done some 
relocating. 

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You're obviously building 
something really cool both on 

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and offline. 
For me, I did have a bit of a 

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light bulb moment as far as 
posting on LinkedIn during 

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undergrad. 
I would say like most Gen. 

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Z's, I was perpetually online. 
For me, my social media of 

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choice was Instagram and I put a
lot of time trying to look cool,

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making stories, post whatever it
was, you know, like building up 

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this like single cool guy 
persona. 

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I, I had to take a step back as 
I started to take my academic 

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and professional life more 
seriously and really evaluate 

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where it was worth it to spend 
my time. 

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And I, I realized very quickly 
that if I was going to have a 

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career in law and be a lawyer, 
that lawyers were online and 

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lawyers were on LinkedIn. 
So I decided to fish where the 

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fish are. 
And just like anyone, there was 

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no grand strategy. 
I didn't enlist in a course 

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that, you know, helped me go 
from zero to 100 mph immediately

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is like a master class of 
LinkedIn. 

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It really was just starting at 
the beginning. 

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And if you go back and you start
swiping on the things that I was

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putting out in 2023 going into 
law school, they look like I 

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didn't know what I was doing 
because candidly, I didn't. 

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I had all the energy, I had all 
the outreach. 

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I was making connections. 
I was starting to get responses 

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to cold outreach that I was 
doing to attorneys. 

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And I would obviously, with 
their permission, ask to, you 

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know, share what we talked about
online and how I had chosen to 

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do that was with screenshots in 
my Notes app, which is just, 

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they look horrible. 
And it was unprofessional. 

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Nobody engaged with it. 
But like slowly as you continue 

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to kind of exercise those 
muscles in any domain here we're

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focusing on LinkedIn. 
You get better, you're able to 

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move more weight and you can be 
a little more strategic and and 

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honestly it make it look a 
little more aesthetic. 

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That's awesome. 
I'm happy that you had that 

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light bulb moment because as 
you, as you've seen in you and 

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as you've been recognized enough
or not enough yet your, your 

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post and all of that do motivate
other people to, to be a little 

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more active in the platform and 
to also seek out those, those 

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opportunities. 
So really appreciate that public

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interest work should do in a way
to all your fellow colleagues 

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all across the globe during this
topic. 

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A lot of students are afraid to 
post on LinkedIn because they 

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feel like they have nothing to 
say. 

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What kind of advice do you give 
out to other people who might 

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feel that way? 
That is the most common response

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that I hear from students. 
And that's not something that 

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they'll necessarily comment on a
LinkedIn post, but it is 

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definitely in my DNA. 
It's in my my text threads 

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anytime I have a voice call with
with students. 

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But my retort is, is honestly, 
you have nothing to lose, right?

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No one expects an incoming or 
even just interested law student

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to be a subject matter expert. 
And a part of starting and 

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growing a legal career is 
understanding and accepting what

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you don't know. 
But that's not an excuse to stay

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that way. 
So in this kind of online 

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domain, I think the best thing 
that students can do and what I 

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share is just to talk about what
you do know. 

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You are at the very least the 
subject matter expert in what 

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you have experienced. 
And there is some sort of 

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cathartic kind of nature to 
sharing what's you do and learn 

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and grapple with online. 
And you'll notice that lawyers, 

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paraprofessionals, people 
involved in the legal community 

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are very opinionated and they're
happy to weigh in and give you 

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advice and, and tell you all the
things that you should do know 

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or, or be interested in. 
But it takes that first initial 

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throwing of caution to the wind 
to just get the ball rolling. 

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And then that's it's, it's a 
pretty strong, you know, you can

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build pretty strong momentum. 
From there, fantastic and and 

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talking about that momentum, but
what's been the most surprising 

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message or connection that 
you've received through your 

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LinkedIn community so far? 
Yeah, I don't want to see anyone

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out. 
I would just say that the most 

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surprising experience that I 
have had has been when I have 

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shared authentically online and 
it's led to like real world 

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connections. 
How many legal practitioners 

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have looked me dead in the eyes 
and have said you are the first 

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law student that has ever 
reached out to me, which I think

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is is shocking because outside 
the legal world we probably say 

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that there are too many lawyers,
right? 

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And you would think if there was
a a generation in any profession

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of people who were getting 
started and wanted to learn that

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there would kind of be like 
maybe a stair step sort of 

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process and connection and 
interaction along the way. 

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For whatever reason, with the 
attorneys that I have interacted

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with, most of the time in 
Arizona, they don't have law 

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students that are reaching out 
to them and asking for 

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questions, looking for mentors. 
And that has just been shocking 

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to me. 
That's so interesting. 

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I feel like there is a very 
interesting points to Astrid 

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that happening in Toronto in a 
way that we do have a few 

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professionals that are very 
active on social media and all 

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of that. 
And they have I feel like an 

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overwhelming amount of people 
reaching out. 

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Whereas in those other 
professionals don't don't get 

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the same share of the attention 
of that. 

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So it becomes very a very 
interesting thing to see where 

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some professionals are 
announcing that they cannot help

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anybody else out just because of
all the people they decided to 

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take in. 
And then on the other hand, 

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people that don't get messages 
at all and that maybe would be 

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happy to to mentor and all of 
that. 

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So I love that it starts 
reaching out, right? 

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You wouldn't know what that 
looks like unless you take the 

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first step. 
And I'm happy to hear that you 

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did that. 
I feel like on your posts and 

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all of that, you talk a lot 
about this power of the cold 

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outreach, right? 
As somebody who recently moved 

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to Arizona as well, and, and 
honestly, I feel like that would

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be very much the same anywhere 
else in the globe. 

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Can you share about a time when 
sending a bold message led to 

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something bigger than you 
expected? 

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I'll share the why. 
First, why I am so on fire about

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cold outreach, especially with 
attorneys is because that was my

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only option. 
My parents, again I grew up as 

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the child of two elementary 
school teachers. 

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They taught 1st and 4th grade. 
I think I had met 2 attorneys in

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person when I went to undergrad 
and started as a pre law student

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when we moved to Arizona. 
My wife Stanley works in asphalt

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windows and another of their 
family members is like was a 

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Community College math teacher. 
So again, a totally different 

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world than the legal community 
to single out one experience 

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that I think encapsulates it all
would be the story of how I got 

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my externship that I have today 
at a national home builder. 

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So I came out of the the on 
campus interview cycle 

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disappointed and a little bit 
dejected, honestly, because my 

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career outcomes to that point 
had not matched with my 

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expectations were. 
And so I was searching and 

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looking for answers and honestly
looking for mentors or people 

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smarter than me who had, you 
know, online looked like they 

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had it figured out. 
So I looked at alumni and I came

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across an alumni of our law 
school. 

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His name won't share, but he 
almost immediately responded to 

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my e-mail, typos and all, and 
said that he'd be willing to 

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talk. 
We got on the line and and I 

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caught him up basically on my 
experience in law school that 

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thus far and he said, you know, 
generally I don't answer 

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outreach like this. 
I'm a busy guy. 

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I'm a CEO who's exited 
something. 

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I'm now run a prominent capital 
allocation firm. 

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I'm also a board member of a lot
of nonprofits and, and even a 

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public company. 
And I just really was, was 

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shocked by your outreach because
my son is your age and I read 

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your question in his voice and 
felt like I had to answer. 

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It just so happened that I ended
up based on the advice that he 

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gave, I started looking at 
in-house attorney roles in a 

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certain industry in the home 
building industry. 

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I got past the screening stage 
and, and was progressing in the 

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interview process. 
And come to find out the public 

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home builder that I was 
interviewing at, he just so 

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happened to be a board member of
that company. 

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So it was this serendipitous 
experience that I could have 

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never had had I not really just,
you know, reached out and then 

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gotten lucky. 
But I think there's a famous 

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line and I don't want to miss 
attribute it to a former 

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president or it might have been 
Thomas Edison, But who said, you

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know, the harder I work, the 
luckier I get. 

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And so for me, that's the cold 
outreach to attorneys or or 

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people that are, you know, a 
step or two further down the 

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path than I am. 
That's fantastic. 

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No, I really love that you 
shared that there is there's an 

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awesome Ted talk as well from 
Tina Seelig that also brings up 

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a lot about what luck looks 
like. 

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And it really means a lot of, 
you know, hard work really and 

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and taking those opportunities 
and maximizing them. 

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So it's always a happy 
experience to get you here when 

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people make that work for the 
best for then and use those 

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tools available. 
And I could really say you've 

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built some something meaningful 
while you're still, you know, a 

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full time law student and out of
curiosity as well and hoping to 

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00:16:05,930 --> 00:16:09,540
provide some advice to other law
students who are also managing 

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00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,760
family, a job during the summer,
going back to law school. 

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How do you manage it all? 
And and do you put any system or

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any boundary so that you can 
stay grounded and able to manage

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00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:23,670
all of these things together? 
If you've ever read a comment 

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00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,270
section on anything I've put on 
LinkedIn, you'll see that 

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00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,670
there's no one-size-fits-all, so
I can only share what I've done.

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Now during law school I have 
worked every semester but that 

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first semester 1L, which I don't
necessarily recommend. 

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But for me and my family, what's
worked is having periodic 

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check-ins and and communicating 
regularly and setting certain 

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00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,420
boundaries Like like you ask. 
So for us, after the first 

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semester with a newborn, us 
being only married for two or 

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00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,150
three years at that point, we 
decided that it was really 

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important that I was home for 
dinner every night. 

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So there were certain things 
that needed to happen as far as 

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law school or work and anytime. 
But my wife always knew that at 

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00:17:09,020 --> 00:17:12,970
6:00 PM I was going to be home 
and I was going to be fully 

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there. 
And I would say that that was 

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something that grounded me 
because in law school or when 

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you're coming up in your legal 
career, when you're doing 

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00:17:21,930 --> 00:17:25,720
anything that matters, it can 
expand to fit the space that you

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00:17:25,730 --> 00:17:30,140
allow it to. 
And I was fortunate to have an 

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00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:35,560
understanding and a helpful 
partner who knew for our family,

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00:17:35,570 --> 00:17:38,850
we needed some time together. 
And ultimately, like I was the 

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00:17:38,860 --> 00:17:41,560
beneficiary of that. 
It helped me keep my head up, 

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you know, straight. 
It helped me stay grounded, 

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00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,690
helped me to see my son grow up,
which is more important than 

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00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:52,090
anything I'll do all day long. 
And, and as far as if you wanna 

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00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:57,210
talk practical tips, I lived out
of the Google Keep software, 

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00:17:57,260 --> 00:18:00,350
which is basically just a 
glorified to-do list that talks 

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00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:03,310
with your Google Calendar and 
your Gmail account. 

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00:18:03,810 --> 00:18:06,950
And I just drew from that well 
all day. 

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00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,430
I lived out of that thing and 
and then did all the the 

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00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,170
academic and professional stuff 
based on what I. 

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00:18:12,180 --> 00:18:13,530
Had in there. 
Fantastic. 

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00:18:13,540 --> 00:18:16,070
Well, that was really inspiring 
to here. 

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00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:19,350
If you could give me one piece 
of advice to someone starting up

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00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:21,110
law school today, what would 
you? 

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00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:24,550
Tell them that's an easy one. 
For me it would be to reach out 

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00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,360
to attorneys early and often. 
That's amazing. 

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00:18:27,370 --> 00:18:30,150
I do believe that regardless of 
where you are in the world, 

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00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,380
that's very much something that 
applies. 

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00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:36,100
There was a culture that I 
noticed early on here in Toronto

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00:18:36,110 --> 00:18:38,260
where people would go out to 
coffee chats. 

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00:18:38,270 --> 00:18:41,420
It, it was just a big thing. 
And then I guess with COVID and 

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00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:44,320
all that, virtual coffee chats 
also became a big thing. 

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00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:47,940
So people will, you know, hop on
a Zoom call with their favorite.

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00:18:48,110 --> 00:18:50,990
And do you feel like there's 
there's somewhat of a culture 

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00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,960
like that in the region where 
you. 

338
00:18:52,970 --> 00:18:56,640
Are right now, I think it's the 
same anywhere you go, Especially

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00:18:56,650 --> 00:19:00,980
like you acknowledge in a post 
COVID world, those in person 

340
00:19:00,990 --> 00:19:05,460
touches or interactions are now 
fewer and farther between 

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00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:09,280
because Zoom has replaced a lot 
of those air, you know, quote, 

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00:19:09,290 --> 00:19:13,870
UN quote, unnecessary meetings 
or unnecessary happy hours or or

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00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,200
whatever it would be, you know, 
the travel that really got us in

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00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:20,330
person and talking face to face.
So because those interactions 

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00:19:20,340 --> 00:19:23,950
are happening less frequently, 
generally, I would say that they

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00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,430
mean more when they happen. 
So there are personal touches 

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00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:31,290
that us as those entering the 
legal profession who are 

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00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:34,610
generally going to be asking 
more than we're giving, there 

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00:19:34,620 --> 00:19:36,830
are personal touches that we can
add into that. 

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00:19:37,060 --> 00:19:40,510
And those experiences like being
interested in what the person 

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00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,650
does, showing up on time, being 
courteous, saying thank you, 

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00:19:44,660 --> 00:19:47,610
sending a thank you e-mail, at 
the very least, maybe a 

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00:19:47,620 --> 00:19:50,150
handwritten note. 
I think all of those things go 

354
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,680
even further than they did in 
the analog world right before 

355
00:19:54,690 --> 00:19:57,370
the onset of the Internet, Zoom 
and all that. 

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00:19:57,380 --> 00:19:58,830
That's, you know, kind of 
evolved. 

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00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:00,910
So thank you so much for taking 
the time to speak. 

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00:20:01,190 --> 00:20:04,120
That's today, Spencer. 
Really appreciate your insights.

359
00:20:04,820 --> 00:20:06,180
Thank you for having me on, it's
been great. 

360
00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:10,250
Thanks for listening, and we'll 
see you on the next episode. 

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00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,810
This episode was sponsored by 
Contender. 

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00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,280
Check them out at 
contenderllc.com.