1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,870 Welcome to your Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions. 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 That shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:34,010 abroad. Thinking about working in 9 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:36,080 another. Legal system or just curious 10 00:00:36,090 --> 00:00:38,520 about how law works around the world? 11 00:00:38,730 --> 00:00:44,380 This podcast is for you. So many of the guests on this 12 00:00:44,390 --> 00:00:47,680 podcast have talked about how important it is to have strong 13 00:00:47,690 --> 00:00:51,320 writing skills as a lawyer. It's true, written communication 14 00:00:51,370 --> 00:00:55,200 is essential in this profession, but it can also be one of the 15 00:00:55,210 --> 00:00:58,540 trickiest skills to master. If you find your writing feels a 16 00:00:58,550 --> 00:01:01,440 bit clunky, or you're getting a lot of edits on your work, or 17 00:01:01,450 --> 00:01:04,000 perhaps you're breaking into an English speaking jurisdiction 18 00:01:04,010 --> 00:01:07,320 for the first time, Grammatica International can help. 19 00:01:07,550 --> 00:01:10,400 I'm Rebecca Lockwood, the lawyer, mediator and educator 20 00:01:10,410 --> 00:01:13,620 behind Grammatica, and we help lawyers and law students to 21 00:01:13,630 --> 00:01:16,800 write more sharply, speak more clearly, and advance their 22 00:01:16,810 --> 00:01:19,740 careers with group training and one-on-one skills coaching 23 00:01:19,790 --> 00:01:21,800 designed just for legal professionals. 24 00:01:22,210 --> 00:01:24,920 I have worked with so many lawyers like you who are 25 00:01:24,930 --> 00:01:28,480 exceptionally smart, qualified and capable, but need a bit of 26 00:01:28,490 --> 00:01:31,140 guidance to stand out in a competitive legal market. 27 00:01:31,650 --> 00:01:34,020 And I get it myself, having lived and worked in five 28 00:01:34,030 --> 00:01:37,280 countries during my 17 years in law and education. 29 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,930 Whether you're looking to sharpen your writing skills, 30 00:01:39,940 --> 00:01:43,410 generally refresh your CV, or draft an application for a law 31 00:01:43,420 --> 00:01:48,170 program, Grammatica can help. Visit gramatica.co to learn 32 00:01:48,180 --> 00:01:52,100 more. Today I had the opportunity to 33 00:01:52,110 --> 00:01:55,040 interview Pauline Chan. She is the head of Lawyer 34 00:01:55,050 --> 00:01:58,220 Experience and Lawyer in residence at Good Lawyer, a 35 00:01:58,230 --> 00:02:00,880 technology company that is transforming how lawyers and 36 00:02:00,890 --> 00:02:04,210 businesses work together. She has had multiple different 37 00:02:04,220 --> 00:02:07,080 roles and worked in different industries even. 38 00:02:07,190 --> 00:02:10,400 And I wanted to thank you so much for taking the time to join 39 00:02:10,410 --> 00:02:12,820 us today and share a little bit about your experience. 40 00:02:12,830 --> 00:02:14,760 Pauline. Well, thank you so much for 41 00:02:14,770 --> 00:02:17,040 having me, Claudio. It's very exciting to be here. 42 00:02:17,050 --> 00:02:20,160 And yeah, looking forward to talking to you about all things 43 00:02:20,170 --> 00:02:21,540 law related. Awesome. 44 00:02:21,550 --> 00:02:25,740 So to start us off, I did a very brief introduction, but I'd love 45 00:02:25,750 --> 00:02:28,280 for you to introduce yourself to your audience as well. 46 00:02:28,330 --> 00:02:31,480 Yeah, for sure. So yeah, my name is Colleen 47 00:02:31,490 --> 00:02:34,030 obviously. And AS Claudio mentioned 48 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,090 already, I am head of lower experience and low in residence 49 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:41,340 at Good Lawyer. Aside from this, I also spend 50 00:02:41,350 --> 00:02:44,040 part of my time right now practicing fractionally as a 51 00:02:44,050 --> 00:02:46,480 lawyer. And so I do practice as general 52 00:02:46,490 --> 00:02:49,800 counsel, as in-house counsel, supporting other, supporting a 53 00:02:49,810 --> 00:02:53,080 legal team. And aside from that, I also have 54 00:02:53,090 --> 00:02:57,520 some random side businesses that I also run here and there with 55 00:02:57,530 --> 00:03:00,070 my husband. And then I have two kids as 56 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,060 well. So 10 year olds and a 7 year 57 00:03:02,070 --> 00:03:04,740 olds. And ultimately, I guess the 58 00:03:04,750 --> 00:03:10,540 bigger back story of how I got here is I started, I started 59 00:03:10,550 --> 00:03:13,680 practicing in house at a big firm like I think many law 60 00:03:13,690 --> 00:03:18,180 students do as you leave the at least the Canadian law school 61 00:03:18,190 --> 00:03:20,700 experience. And so I started at a big firm. 62 00:03:20,870 --> 00:03:24,000 It was definitely not quite the right path for me. 63 00:03:24,010 --> 00:03:27,370 And so it took me a few years to recognize that, even though I 64 00:03:27,380 --> 00:03:30,190 try really, really hard to, to make it work for me, but 65 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,290 ultimately it did not. And I recognize that. 66 00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:35,490 And so I moved on. I ended up working in some 67 00:03:35,860 --> 00:03:39,590 in-house roles, which I really, really love doing. 68 00:03:39,660 --> 00:03:42,570 I was very, very excited to be working right next to the 69 00:03:42,580 --> 00:03:46,030 business with the sales team, with HR, with whatever other 70 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,150 business units. It's really something that I've, 71 00:03:48,220 --> 00:03:50,030 I realized that I love very much. 72 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,210 But in that specific case, I would say I was a little bit 73 00:03:53,220 --> 00:03:55,790 burnt out, I think, after my experience at the firm. 74 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,310 And so it was just not a great time, I think for me. 75 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,690 And so ultimately I sort of thought to myself, well, I guess 76 00:04:00,700 --> 00:04:02,930 I might be done practicing entirely. 77 00:04:02,940 --> 00:04:06,320 So I went out and I opened up a fitness studio with my 78 00:04:06,330 --> 00:04:08,360 transition plan to get out of the law. 79 00:04:08,490 --> 00:04:11,780 Funny enough, it was actually through this transition plan, 80 00:04:11,790 --> 00:04:14,600 everything was going good. I was just sort of getting ready 81 00:04:14,610 --> 00:04:17,950 to run off into the sunset with my, with my fitness studio. 82 00:04:18,290 --> 00:04:22,760 And I got a message from good lawyer asking me if I, my small 83 00:04:22,770 --> 00:04:25,840 businesses was interested in getting some legal advice. 84 00:04:26,170 --> 00:04:29,640 So I said, well, no, thank you because I'm a lawyer, But also I 85 00:04:29,650 --> 00:04:31,440 was very curious about what they were doing. 86 00:04:31,450 --> 00:04:33,340 So I started talking to good lawyer. 87 00:04:33,350 --> 00:04:35,400 They convinced me to try out some clients with them. 88 00:04:35,410 --> 00:04:38,220 And then before you knew it, I had written a note to our 89 00:04:38,230 --> 00:04:40,640 cofounder saying, you know what, you've changed my life. 90 00:04:40,650 --> 00:04:43,660 Everything is now before a good lawyer and after a good lawyer 91 00:04:43,670 --> 00:04:45,700 when it comes to my practice experience. 92 00:04:46,050 --> 00:04:49,140 And so here I am, which is ultimately where it led me 93 00:04:49,150 --> 00:04:50,820 today. So I'm practicing part time 94 00:04:50,890 --> 00:04:53,780 working with good lower part time and then also on the side 95 00:04:53,790 --> 00:04:56,410 running some other little side hustle businesses. 96 00:04:56,470 --> 00:05:00,040 That's fantastic. Well, I'd, I'd love to, you 97 00:05:00,050 --> 00:05:02,340 know, dig deeper into that experience. 98 00:05:02,350 --> 00:05:05,860 So I saw that sometimes as you were sharing content over social 99 00:05:05,870 --> 00:05:08,720 media and in different engagements, you did mention 100 00:05:08,730 --> 00:05:11,380 something along the lines of a new way to lawyer. 101 00:05:11,470 --> 00:05:14,660 And I'd love to hear, you know, what that means to you and maybe 102 00:05:14,670 --> 00:05:17,280 even why do you think our profession needs some more of 103 00:05:17,290 --> 00:05:19,860 that? Yeah, well, you picked a topic 104 00:05:19,870 --> 00:05:21,460 I'm very passionate about Claudio. 105 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:28,290 So I would say we are, I, I feel like the new way to lawyer is 106 00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:32,670 sort of a much more supportive way for lawyers specifically. 107 00:05:32,780 --> 00:05:37,810 I think at a very high level, our profession tends to not 108 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:41,470 focus on us. We are always focus, which makes 109 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:42,880 sense. We're always focused on doing 110 00:05:42,890 --> 00:05:45,890 the right thing for the clients and pretty much everything else. 111 00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:49,100 I think in the business of practice and how we set 112 00:05:49,110 --> 00:05:51,930 ourselves up, how we, how we run our practices, how we do the 113 00:05:51,940 --> 00:05:55,930 work and all of that is all really set up and geared towards 114 00:05:55,940 --> 00:05:59,270 how do we please the client in all of the different ways and 115 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:00,790 how do we ensure the client is happy. 116 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:05,890 I think the new way of lawyer fundamentally is looking at ways 117 00:06:05,900 --> 00:06:09,270 to practice that focus on how do we make this better for the 118 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:11,630 lawyer. It's kind of funny because I, it 119 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,620 seems like it's such a different and revolutionary thing, but in 120 00:06:15,630 --> 00:06:19,510 my mind, it's not because we're ultimately focused on making the 121 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,880 lawyer happy. I think that many of us who go 122 00:06:23,890 --> 00:06:27,160 into law school, who get the degree and start working as 123 00:06:27,170 --> 00:06:30,920 lawyers, we want to help. And I think it shows very much 124 00:06:30,930 --> 00:06:33,780 in all of the ways that we try to do the right thing for our 125 00:06:33,790 --> 00:06:35,880 clients. But I also think that the 126 00:06:35,890 --> 00:06:40,840 structure of how we do this work has not always been in such a 127 00:06:40,850 --> 00:06:42,840 way that is supportive of the lawyer. 128 00:06:42,850 --> 00:06:46,420 And so then we see problems where lawyers are not happy with 129 00:06:46,430 --> 00:06:47,740 the structures in which they work. 130 00:06:47,750 --> 00:06:51,370 And maybe this is the simple piece of I don't want to have to 131 00:06:51,380 --> 00:06:54,610 be in person at an office. It works so much better for me 132 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,750 and my life and my practice to be able to do this from home 133 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,530 whenever I want. It could be that simple or it 134 00:07:00,540 --> 00:07:05,170 could just simply be it is the entire way that practice is set 135 00:07:05,180 --> 00:07:10,670 up from the billable hour to the tracking of, you know, whatever. 136 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,270 I have to do all the marketing and I have to do BD, but at the 137 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,610 same time, I also have to do all of the legal work to a very, 138 00:07:16,620 --> 00:07:19,610 very high level. Maybe it is all the structural 139 00:07:19,620 --> 00:07:23,150 things as well that really kind of contribute to an environment 140 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,370 where I just don't think lawyers are able to do their best work 141 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,770 and able to continue to do their best work sustainably. 142 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,680 I just think that the structures don't allow for that in the 143 00:07:33,690 --> 00:07:35,920 current paths that are available to lawyers. 144 00:07:36,130 --> 00:07:38,910 And so I think this new way to lawyer is definitely one of 145 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,700 those ways where we're looking at some other things that can 146 00:07:41,710 --> 00:07:44,200 support the lawyer doing their best work sustainably on an 147 00:07:44,210 --> 00:07:46,800 ongoing. Basis Tastic speaking about this 148 00:07:47,030 --> 00:07:51,320 so-called revolutionary way that really in the end might be a way 149 00:07:51,330 --> 00:07:54,270 that's not that's just a way that really supports the lawyer 150 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,950 and the experience. I also found very interesting 151 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:58,980 the way you describe yourself as a lawyer. 152 00:07:59,030 --> 00:08:03,160 So I saw that you call yourself a drummer, a serial entrepreneur 153 00:08:03,170 --> 00:08:06,760 and a fractional lawyer. And as I said, not not what you 154 00:08:06,770 --> 00:08:10,410 usually read out there. So I'd love to hear a little 155 00:08:10,420 --> 00:08:12,840 more about, you know, how do you got, how did you get to this 156 00:08:12,850 --> 00:08:17,150 point where you in a way permit yourself to build legal career 157 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,930 on your own terms? Yeah, I think, I mean, I don't 158 00:08:21,940 --> 00:08:27,040 know, I, I don't know that I've permitted myself to build this 159 00:08:27,050 --> 00:08:29,840 legal career on my terms. I, I mean, I guess at some point 160 00:08:29,850 --> 00:08:33,159 I did permit myself, but I feel like the start of it was 161 00:08:33,169 --> 00:08:38,440 actually just a lot of I'm not happy, I want to be happy. 162 00:08:38,490 --> 00:08:41,860 How do I do that? And, and how do I and, and yeah, 163 00:08:41,870 --> 00:08:44,120 how do I do that? And so as I start thinking about 164 00:08:44,130 --> 00:08:47,280 how I'm going to do this and the initial thing is immediately, 165 00:08:47,290 --> 00:08:50,500 well, OK, for starters, do I like being a lawyer? 166 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,120 What do I like about it? What do I not like about it? 167 00:08:53,130 --> 00:08:56,280 And then I think in that way, you're immediately sort of into 168 00:08:56,290 --> 00:08:59,720 the dreaming world, right? Where it's like, OK, I don't 169 00:08:59,730 --> 00:09:03,080 like these following things For these reasons, but there's also 170 00:09:03,090 --> 00:09:05,910 all these other things that I really do like about the law. 171 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:11,380 How do I dream up a way to do this so that I can actually take 172 00:09:11,390 --> 00:09:14,010 the things that I don't like, turn them into things that I 173 00:09:14,020 --> 00:09:17,650 don't have to do very often or somebody can support me on this, 174 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,640 or it can be something that is very minimal and I don't have to 175 00:09:21,650 --> 00:09:23,310 think about it too much, so it's OK. 176 00:09:23,380 --> 00:09:25,370 And then do more of the things that I actually like. 177 00:09:25,380 --> 00:09:29,190 So I feel like the dreaming part is actually sort of what led me 178 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,170 to realize like there's a million different things that I 179 00:09:32,180 --> 00:09:34,990 can do now. What do I actually want to do? 180 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,350 And so you start with the dreaming of, you know, it's 181 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,950 essentially idea storming where you're coming up with 8 million 182 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,590 different things that would be fun and interesting and 183 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,270 potentially amazing. And then you go down that path 184 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,500 and sort of try them out. And then it's funny, as I sort 185 00:09:49,510 --> 00:09:52,900 of started getting into, OK, what do I want to do next? 186 00:09:52,910 --> 00:09:57,560 I thought, OK, so I'm a lawyer, I work with businesses. 187 00:09:57,570 --> 00:10:01,460 And because of this, I actually feel like I have, I also have a 188 00:10:01,470 --> 00:10:04,550 business background, I suppose in schooling before I went to 189 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:06,530 law school. But I think because of the 190 00:10:06,540 --> 00:10:09,440 business background and then also the legal background, I 191 00:10:09,450 --> 00:10:12,440 started thinking to myself, well, wouldn't I be kind of well 192 00:10:12,450 --> 00:10:16,080 suited to be an entrepreneur, assuming I can stomach the risk 193 00:10:16,090 --> 00:10:19,340 and you know, all the other stuff, It feels kind of like the 194 00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:22,420 natural progression. So that's again comes back to 195 00:10:22,430 --> 00:10:24,100 the dreaming. Well, what would I do? 196 00:10:24,110 --> 00:10:26,440 Like what kind of business, what would be something that would be 197 00:10:26,450 --> 00:10:29,680 interesting and exciting to me that I would want to do on a 198 00:10:29,690 --> 00:10:32,050 day-to-day and that doing down to day-to-day is not going to 199 00:10:32,060 --> 00:10:34,430 turn into a nightmare that I'm like, oh, it turns out I don't 200 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,350 actually like this at all. So there's a lot of like soul 201 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:39,380 searching, I would say. And so I think a lot of the 202 00:10:39,390 --> 00:10:41,650 dreaming part comes from that dreaming of all the 203 00:10:41,660 --> 00:10:46,210 possibilities and then slowly whittling them back as you think 204 00:10:46,220 --> 00:10:48,490 through, OK, I want to be an entrepreneur. 205 00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:50,970 What are the things that I can reasonably maybe set up as an 206 00:10:50,980 --> 00:10:53,570 entrepreneur with all the different restrictions that I 207 00:10:53,580 --> 00:10:55,950 might have in my life? For example, having two kids, 208 00:10:56,020 --> 00:10:58,090 it's going to be hard. I don't know that I can do this 209 00:10:58,100 --> 00:10:59,510 all. So maybe there's a specific type 210 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,440 of business that's more suited to a slow build versus like, you 211 00:11:03,450 --> 00:11:05,810 know, just jumping right in or something like that. 212 00:11:06,620 --> 00:11:08,270 Yeah. And then I guess adding on the 213 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,070 last part about being a fractional lawyer, it's actually 214 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,080 the fractional lawyer piece that allows me to be, I think, a 215 00:11:15,090 --> 00:11:19,240 great entrepreneur, a great lawyer supporting businesses 216 00:11:19,250 --> 00:11:22,060 because I know what it's like to have, I've started one. 217 00:11:22,330 --> 00:11:25,700 And then frankly, the fractional lawyering is a part that helps 218 00:11:25,710 --> 00:11:29,140 pay the bills so that I can then go do these other things with my 219 00:11:29,150 --> 00:11:31,600 family, dreaming of new businesses to start up or 220 00:11:31,610 --> 00:11:33,280 working on the ones I've already started. 221 00:11:33,290 --> 00:11:36,420 So it's kind of a funny, it sounds like you're right. 222 00:11:36,430 --> 00:11:39,150 Most lawyers don't describe them that way, but themselves that 223 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:40,660 way. But I also think that a lot of 224 00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:43,910 lawyers should be thinking about describing themselves in this 225 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,560 way. To be honest, I don't think it's 226 00:11:45,570 --> 00:11:48,780 unusual for lawyers to be dreamers and entrepreneurs. 227 00:11:48,830 --> 00:11:51,460 That's fantastic. I love to hear that and and you 228 00:11:51,470 --> 00:11:54,850 very much spoke about how you know that plays a role in your, 229 00:11:54,860 --> 00:11:58,610 in your action with business, talking about your background 230 00:11:58,620 --> 00:12:02,010 with business as well. But I'd love to go on and, and 231 00:12:02,020 --> 00:12:05,030 talk a little bit about resilience as well and about, 232 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,910 you know, these other factors. So you you've spoken in the past 233 00:12:09,260 --> 00:12:13,250 about being an unfairly fired and how that experience helped 234 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:17,170 to shape your journey into law. If I may ask, what do you wish 235 00:12:17,180 --> 00:12:21,010 more young lawyers knew about bouncing back when things fall 236 00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:23,570 apart or don't really go as planned? 237 00:12:23,620 --> 00:12:27,260 I think that I would tell young lawyers that like you have been 238 00:12:27,270 --> 00:12:29,930 trained for this. This is actually almost exactly 239 00:12:29,940 --> 00:12:32,970 what you have been trained for in in school and in in your 240 00:12:32,980 --> 00:12:36,270 early days of practice, which is what happens when Plan A falls 241 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,310 apart. What is the Plan B and what does 242 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,740 that look like and plan D&D and all the other plans really like, 243 00:12:42,750 --> 00:12:44,760 I think that this is exactly what we trained for. 244 00:12:44,770 --> 00:12:49,040 We've looked at, we look at the if this, then this that that 245 00:12:49,110 --> 00:12:52,710 we've split out all of these potential options or, or things 246 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,080 that could happen and how do we deal with them? 247 00:12:55,150 --> 00:12:58,440 That's what you do in a way in your practice, right? 248 00:12:58,450 --> 00:13:01,980 And so to me, it's just about taking the same learnings and 249 00:13:01,990 --> 00:13:05,580 applying it to your life. And I think to start with, we 250 00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:08,740 all know, I think maybe deep down inside, maybe it's been 251 00:13:08,750 --> 00:13:12,140 buried by by many years of law school and and, and training in 252 00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:14,280 the law. But deep down inside, I think we 253 00:13:14,290 --> 00:13:17,020 all know nothing really ever goes to plan. 254 00:13:17,090 --> 00:13:20,660 And so it makes sense to sort of make the plan and then add on 255 00:13:20,670 --> 00:13:23,350 some other plans. And then honestly, at some point 256 00:13:23,490 --> 00:13:25,290 you just have to jump in and take the risk. 257 00:13:25,420 --> 00:13:29,170 And I think that maybe as lawyers were, or maybe the group 258 00:13:29,180 --> 00:13:31,950 of us is, you know, statistically less likely to 259 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,310 take risks. I don't know, maybe, maybe not, 260 00:13:34,380 --> 00:13:37,180 but it doesn't matter. We've all taken risks before. 261 00:13:37,190 --> 00:13:39,910 Like, frankly, going to law school with the risk, wasn't it 262 00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:41,930 Because maybe you would go to law school and find out you 263 00:13:41,940 --> 00:13:44,850 didn't actually like it at all or find out, Oh my, you know, 264 00:13:44,860 --> 00:13:46,680 maybe you did it because you thought you were going to use it 265 00:13:46,690 --> 00:13:47,750 for something other than practice. 266 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,580 And then you're like, oh, I really want to practice. 267 00:13:49,620 --> 00:13:51,750 So even to go into law school was a risk. 268 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,650 It's just about doing the calculations and making the 269 00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:57,710 plans, right. And then I would say like the 270 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,490 failure and resistance, resilience, resistance, the 271 00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:02,510 failure and resilience conversation. 272 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:06,230 We're always, we're having this, I think, conversation from day 273 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,580 one, have this with my kids every single day. 274 00:14:08,590 --> 00:14:11,600 And I remind myself about it every time something doesn't go 275 00:14:11,610 --> 00:14:13,040 to plan and it looks like a failure. 276 00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:16,600 We're always going to fail. And in some ways, we're not 277 00:14:16,610 --> 00:14:20,160 learning if we're not failing. And so there's nothing wrong 278 00:14:20,170 --> 00:14:22,660 with failure. It really is what I say to my 279 00:14:22,670 --> 00:14:24,520 kids all the time and I try to implement. 280 00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:26,760 For me, it's not about the failure. 281 00:14:26,830 --> 00:14:28,800 It's always about what happens next. 282 00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:31,520 What do you do next? What are you going to do to get 283 00:14:31,530 --> 00:14:32,940 better? What are you going to do to 284 00:14:32,950 --> 00:14:34,810 avoid that mistake? What are you going to do to 285 00:14:34,820 --> 00:14:37,170 learn from that mistake? What are you going to do to make 286 00:14:37,180 --> 00:14:40,040 that same mistake again, but slightly pivot it so that it's 287 00:14:40,050 --> 00:14:42,060 actually not a mistake in the future, right? 288 00:14:42,450 --> 00:14:45,750 So it's very hard, of course, but, and I think that our 289 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,560 profession makes it harder in some ways with this silly 290 00:14:48,570 --> 00:14:51,510 standard of perfection. There is no such thing. 291 00:14:51,580 --> 00:14:54,190 No one is perfect. We are all making mistakes. 292 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,060 Whether or not I jump up and tell you about it is one thing, 293 00:14:58,140 --> 00:15:01,450 but I am making mistakes. But really, I think the goal is 294 00:15:01,460 --> 00:15:03,930 always, let's not focus on the mistake and how how we got 295 00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:06,990 there, unless it is for the purposes of doing better next 296 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,010 time and making a note for yourself how you can avoid it 297 00:15:10,020 --> 00:15:13,030 next time. Or sometimes you learn from 298 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,390 mistakes as well and that you're just like, well, I made a 299 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:16,680 mistake and I went down this path. 300 00:15:16,690 --> 00:15:19,050 Turns out I don't like it. It's not really a mistake. 301 00:15:19,060 --> 00:15:21,590 Maybe we need to be more gentle with ourselves about whether 302 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,370 something is in the state. If you learn that something is 303 00:15:24,380 --> 00:15:27,350 not what you like, that's not a mistake that actually gave you a 304 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,920 check mark to put in the column of I don't want to do this again 305 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:33,550 because I don't like it. There's nothing wrong with that. 306 00:15:33,660 --> 00:15:35,990 You're learning about things you like, but you also have to learn 307 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,700 about things you don't like so that you can sort of start to 308 00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:41,420 whittle out the pieces of the path that you're like, not 309 00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:43,520 relevant, don't like that, don't want that. 310 00:15:43,770 --> 00:15:46,760 So is it really a mistake? I think we actually need to be a 311 00:15:46,770 --> 00:15:48,640 little more gentler about ourselves, whether it's a 312 00:15:48,650 --> 00:15:51,230 mistake or not. Story Claudio, you're on mute. 313 00:15:51,310 --> 00:15:52,660 Thank you so much for the heads up. 314 00:15:52,670 --> 00:15:54,490 I'll make sure to cut this out. Yeah. 315 00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:57,920 I find myself, you know, trying not to use the word fantastic 316 00:15:57,930 --> 00:16:00,600 every after hearing every single answer you give. 317 00:16:00,610 --> 00:16:03,600 But that's that's the only word I'm finding right now. 318 00:16:03,610 --> 00:16:07,700 And as as you speak about all these things, I also wanted to 319 00:16:07,710 --> 00:16:10,610 hear a little more about, you know, your experience in your 320 00:16:10,620 --> 00:16:13,860 current role as part of the lawyer experience team. 321 00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:16,970 I'd love to to hear a little bit about like, what are you hearing 322 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,100 young lawyers today that maybe surprises you? 323 00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:23,350 Or also that, you know, lawyers are saying, hey, I need more of 324 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,780 these. I need less of that so that they 325 00:16:25,790 --> 00:16:29,040 can feel really that they are, you know, that they belong, that 326 00:16:29,050 --> 00:16:31,840 they are having a fruitful career and that they are 327 00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:39,140 enjoying themselves. 4 I would say flexibility and I'll, I'll 328 00:16:39,150 --> 00:16:42,720 bundle remote work into this, even though it's not the only 329 00:16:42,730 --> 00:16:45,250 piece of flexibility, but I'll bundle remote work. 330 00:16:45,260 --> 00:16:49,200 But flexibility remote work is definitely something that I hear 331 00:16:49,270 --> 00:16:52,140 the most often. In fact, I did a, we did a poll 332 00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:53,910 on it, I think on LinkedIn a little while ago. 333 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,280 And by far that was the winner of the poll. 334 00:16:56,350 --> 00:17:01,000 I think that I feel that a lot of lawyers, many, many of us are 335 00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:04,099 very like we're driven. We're, we're obviously not in 336 00:17:04,109 --> 00:17:08,510 all ways, but we are Taipei very chasing the chasing 337 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,420 achievements. We're very, very focused on 338 00:17:10,430 --> 00:17:13,079 doing an excellent job in all the things that we do. 339 00:17:13,150 --> 00:17:17,260 I think that this flexibility and remote work push from 340 00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:21,910 lawyers really comes from the fact that we all are focused on 341 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,690 doing 100% and more for our clients in every single piece of 342 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:29,250 work that we do. And because of this, we need 343 00:17:29,260 --> 00:17:33,070 varying amounts of, say, varying amounts of being in quiet places 344 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,790 where we can do focused deep work and all of that stuff. 345 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:41,090 But the key is that I think we all just work differently and in 346 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:43,690 different ways and during different times of days. 347 00:17:44,100 --> 00:17:47,030 Yes, we understand that there are core business hours that we 348 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,470 need to be available to do certain work and meetings and 349 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:50,990 things like that. We're different. 350 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,040 We're all born differently and work differently and focused 351 00:17:54,050 --> 00:17:55,850 differently. We learn and do work 352 00:17:55,860 --> 00:17:57,950 differently. Why should we not have the 353 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:02,250 ability to be able to do this in a way that suits us, that suits 354 00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:05,800 our personality and whatever sort of accommodations we might 355 00:18:05,810 --> 00:18:09,270 need for whatever reason, whether it's I have kids or I'm 356 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,000 neurodivergent or whatever, there's a million different ways 357 00:18:13,010 --> 00:18:15,470 that we are different. We are all still going to get 358 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,900 the work done though, and to a standard that I think is frankly 359 00:18:18,910 --> 00:18:21,870 beyond what most people would expect given that that is how 360 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,270 we're going to perform. What we ultimately want is we 361 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,220 just want some freedom and flexibility and when, how and 362 00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:31,200 where we perform this work. And so I think that makes a lot 363 00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:33,280 of sense. I'm hearing this from lots of 364 00:18:33,290 --> 00:18:35,100 lawyers. The second piece that I'm 365 00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:38,900 hearing a lot actually is that lawyers, we want variety. 366 00:18:39,250 --> 00:18:43,500 And I think in-house roles are generally really excellent for 367 00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:45,820 variety because you are right in the middle of a business. 368 00:18:46,090 --> 00:18:49,370 You know, one day it's the HR team asking you questions about 369 00:18:49,380 --> 00:18:51,780 a higher that they're planning to do or policy on 370 00:18:51,790 --> 00:18:53,440 discrimination or something like that. 371 00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:56,220 Another day it's sales teams talking to you about the various 372 00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:58,840 contracts, or it's the procurement team talking to you 373 00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:01,020 about how they're wanting to bring in a new supplier and 374 00:19:01,030 --> 00:19:03,820 running a bid process. There's variety all the time. 375 00:19:03,870 --> 00:19:05,940 You're dealing with all kinds of different things, which is 376 00:19:05,950 --> 00:19:08,090 wonderful. But even for in-house lawyers, I 377 00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:11,260 think after you've done this with whatever, it could be one 378 00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:13,490 company, it could be, you know, 10 different companies. 379 00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:16,240 Once you've done the work with these companies, it starts to 380 00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:19,220 look very similar and you start to be able to make all these 381 00:19:19,230 --> 00:19:21,590 different cross connections from different clients, different 382 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,360 types of businesses. All the work starts to look 383 00:19:24,370 --> 00:19:26,760 similar. And yes, it's always going to be 384 00:19:26,770 --> 00:19:28,800 a little bit different. There's always going to be 385 00:19:28,810 --> 00:19:33,100 creativity required and and and complex their problems, but I 386 00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:37,070 think ultimately what lawyers are looking for is more variety 387 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,650 in clients, maybe that they serve at a time, which in an in 388 00:19:40,660 --> 00:19:42,950 house model is typically not available. 389 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,470 You're a full time employee of one company and that's what you 390 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,430 do. But then when you've gotten 391 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,910 further in your career, you actually are like, well, I could 392 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,450 actually help two or three different companies at a time 393 00:19:52,780 --> 00:19:55,850 doing similar type work. It's not exactly the same, but 394 00:19:55,860 --> 00:19:58,870 actually the cross connections between different types of 395 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,550 clients or different clients and the Saint similar type of work 396 00:20:02,620 --> 00:20:06,280 is actually what is so engaging and interesting and offering the 397 00:20:06,290 --> 00:20:10,710 variety that I'm looking for. So I do think that like in this 398 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,290 model specifically, I would say the fractional in-house legal 399 00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:17,570 model, which is. Good lawyer does I think that 400 00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:21,750 it's offering both flexibility and freedom, but also variety 401 00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:25,970 and complex work that I think hasn't always been available. 402 00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:29,430 It it, it sort of felt like, you know what you're going to do, 403 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,540 you're going to do the work. It's not that complex. 404 00:20:31,550 --> 00:20:33,490 You've done it before, but that's good enough. 405 00:20:33,540 --> 00:20:36,690 Well, I think a lot of lawyers we got into it because we crave 406 00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:39,010 complex problems and we want to help people and we want to 407 00:20:39,020 --> 00:20:40,770 solve. And then we get further in the 408 00:20:40,780 --> 00:20:43,370 career and we're like, well, I actually need more complex 409 00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:44,870 problems. There's something new to apply 410 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,050 it to. And I think that the variety 411 00:20:47,060 --> 00:20:50,010 that we can offer at the same time is actually something very 412 00:20:50,020 --> 00:20:52,490 new and that it helps keep lawyers brains going. 413 00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:54,990 I think it's it's, you know, you're learning new things and 414 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,230 it fires up old connections. It fires up new connections, 415 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,560 which is ultimately, I think, what we all love to be doing. 416 00:21:01,650 --> 00:21:04,060 That's amazing. So now, now an interesting 417 00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:05,560 question that comes into mind here. 418 00:21:05,570 --> 00:21:08,660 As you were talking about that that process, I see that a lot 419 00:21:08,670 --> 00:21:12,730 of the lawyers who are in this path, they they basically went 420 00:21:12,740 --> 00:21:16,720 through a very scripted career. If I if I say, if I may say that 421 00:21:16,730 --> 00:21:19,960 myself, but something along the lines of, you know, going into 422 00:21:20,030 --> 00:21:23,680 law school and then starting maybe they're under all summer 423 00:21:23,690 --> 00:21:26,860 working at a big law firm articling if that's the case of 424 00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:30,240 the jurisdiction or anyways, starting their licensing and 425 00:21:30,250 --> 00:21:32,750 being an associate for a couple of years at a big law firm and 426 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,500 then transition into this kind of roles. 427 00:21:35,570 --> 00:21:38,830 But I know that that's not the reality for many lawyers, but 428 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,490 they might be interested in, in going through that. 429 00:21:41,570 --> 00:21:44,800 If so, I, I'd, I'd love to ask you a little more about like, 430 00:21:44,810 --> 00:21:47,700 what are some insights you might have for people who might not 431 00:21:47,710 --> 00:21:50,280 have had the, the incredible training? 432 00:21:50,330 --> 00:21:54,780 You might get A at a big firm or you know, the, the amount of 433 00:21:54,790 --> 00:21:58,920 work that that really trains you well and that gets you prepared 434 00:21:58,930 --> 00:22:02,740 and maybe confident to, to assume an in house position. 435 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:04,400 What are some of your thoughts on that? 436 00:22:04,410 --> 00:22:08,480 I think that there's actually so, so much that we can learn 437 00:22:08,490 --> 00:22:12,980 from experiences where we don't see them as traditionally being 438 00:22:12,990 --> 00:22:16,660 valuable. I think in, in our profession or 439 00:22:16,670 --> 00:22:19,060 maybe once we get into the practice of law and everybody's 440 00:22:19,070 --> 00:22:22,460 at their firms and, and doing their work, we tend to see, I 441 00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:25,270 think only the one path that will get us those skills. 442 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,210 But what I would say is that when I went, no, I'm not 443 00:22:29,220 --> 00:22:31,000 suggesting that everybody needs to go out and become an 444 00:22:31,010 --> 00:22:33,180 entrepreneur and open, open up their own business to be a 445 00:22:33,190 --> 00:22:36,390 better lawyer. But to be perfectly blunt about 446 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,480 it, I learned so much when I went out and did that for 447 00:22:39,490 --> 00:22:42,060 myself. And I think that it's, it's 448 00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:44,590 you're seeing the world like, I think a lot of lawyers, we go 449 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:45,790 through the path that we go through. 450 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,170 And so we learn about the law first. 451 00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:50,480 Let's say in your path, for example, the big, the big firm, 452 00:22:50,540 --> 00:22:52,710 you learn about the, the law a little bit. 453 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,970 I would say in, in some ways, in a vacuum kind of, and then you 454 00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:59,650 go into an in house role and then you're like, OK, this is 455 00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:02,490 actually what it's like to be in the business and how law 456 00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:04,270 intersects with the business when you're in it. 457 00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:07,740 And so I think that's one path for sure. 458 00:23:07,750 --> 00:23:10,390 But I also think that when I went out and opened up my own 459 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,900 business and suddenly I'm just being thrown into the business 460 00:23:12,910 --> 00:23:15,240 and in my head, it's still all the legal stuff I'm thinking 461 00:23:15,250 --> 00:23:17,000 about. But I'm like, OK, This is why I 462 00:23:17,010 --> 00:23:19,780 actually don't care at all about this thing that I thought was 463 00:23:19,790 --> 00:23:21,600 such a big deal before I had done this. 464 00:23:21,670 --> 00:23:24,960 But then now actually what I do want is these following things. 465 00:23:24,970 --> 00:23:27,680 And so, yeah, I think the changing of the perspective is 466 00:23:27,690 --> 00:23:30,120 really important. And so I think like to the 467 00:23:30,130 --> 00:23:32,870 extent that lawyers, younger lawyers could do this and you 468 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,450 have time, which I actually run into a lot who I think are doing 469 00:23:35,460 --> 00:23:36,660 this. So I think it's a good thing. 470 00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:39,210 Work with your friends. Like, I mean, you've got to know 471 00:23:39,220 --> 00:23:41,560 you've you've got to know a friend who is starting a 472 00:23:41,570 --> 00:23:43,240 business. Everybody's starting a business 473 00:23:43,250 --> 00:23:45,820 and everybody is out there, you know, doing their own thing. 474 00:23:45,870 --> 00:23:48,620 Go hang out with your friend for days, see what they do all day 475 00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:52,850 long and learn and think about that from your perspective as a 476 00:23:52,860 --> 00:23:54,900 lawyer. But you know, get deep into what 477 00:23:54,910 --> 00:23:57,050 they're thinking about every day, what they're worried about 478 00:23:57,060 --> 00:23:59,850 everyday work with your friends. If they'll pay you, great. 479 00:23:59,860 --> 00:24:01,660 If they won't pay you, that's fine too. 480 00:24:01,670 --> 00:24:07,070 You're learning lots, right? I think also meeting up with 481 00:24:07,140 --> 00:24:10,010 even going with a friend, if you feel like you need to go with a 482 00:24:10,020 --> 00:24:14,030 friend, go to a networking event for an entrepreneurs networking 483 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,200 event. Learn from them instead of going 484 00:24:16,210 --> 00:24:18,250 there to to sell them your services. 485 00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:20,770 Learn from them, you know, ask them what the biggest problems 486 00:24:20,780 --> 00:24:22,230 they're facing are in their business. 487 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,610 This I find is just so super helpful because it really starts 488 00:24:25,620 --> 00:24:30,390 to help you shape what it's shaping the work that you may 489 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,040 want to do in the future. Now, again, just like I said 490 00:24:33,050 --> 00:24:35,840 earlier, if you're talking to to entrepreneurs and you're hearing 491 00:24:35,850 --> 00:24:37,430 about all these things and you're like, oh God, that 492 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,200 doesn't sound like something I'm interested in at all. 493 00:24:39,210 --> 00:24:42,090 Like I don't want to do that. I get checked on your list and 494 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:43,940 now you can pivot and move to something else. 495 00:24:44,030 --> 00:24:45,690 But if you're like, wow, this is amazing. 496 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:49,460 Not only are you learning so that you can become a better 497 00:24:49,470 --> 00:24:52,920 sort of practical business minded lawyer, but you're also 498 00:24:52,930 --> 00:24:55,700 now in the ways that you're learning and you're showing 499 00:24:55,710 --> 00:24:58,440 interest and potentially you're like, Oh, I know a little bit 500 00:24:58,450 --> 00:24:59,620 about that. I can help you with that. 501 00:24:59,630 --> 00:25:01,960 You're also giving back to entrepreneurs. 502 00:25:01,970 --> 00:25:04,760 What a beautiful way for you to potentially be setting a path 503 00:25:04,770 --> 00:25:07,290 for yourself to start your own practice 1. 504 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:10,180 Day fantastic. Well, you, you mentioned a few 505 00:25:10,190 --> 00:25:12,900 different things here that I really enjoyed and I was 506 00:25:12,910 --> 00:25:15,520 wondering if there is a specific things that maybe you could 507 00:25:15,530 --> 00:25:20,220 pinpoint that were fundamental skills or habits that really 508 00:25:20,230 --> 00:25:24,180 helped you to go from being a corporate lawyer to, you know, 509 00:25:24,190 --> 00:25:27,400 legal, tech, entrepreneurship, all of these things. 510 00:25:27,630 --> 00:25:32,000 I would say learning, loving, like really loving learning 511 00:25:32,010 --> 00:25:35,300 about things and, and just really digging deep into things 512 00:25:35,310 --> 00:25:38,160 and three things. Loving, learning, because that's 513 00:25:38,170 --> 00:25:41,880 always going to be part of anything that you do as a 514 00:25:41,890 --> 00:25:43,800 lawyer. And even if you pivot into 515 00:25:43,810 --> 00:25:46,340 something different, once again, you're going to need to learn to 516 00:25:46,350 --> 00:25:48,330 make that pivot, even if you're not going to be a lawyer. 517 00:25:48,340 --> 00:25:53,160 So loving learning, learning to love it or learning to love what 518 00:25:53,170 --> 00:25:55,760 you like to learn about. And then focus on that. 519 00:25:55,770 --> 00:25:57,000 Don't focus on the stuff you don't like. 520 00:25:57,010 --> 00:25:59,040 Focus on the stuff you like because that is always going to 521 00:25:59,050 --> 00:26:01,530 get you more mileage no matter what it is that you're doing. 522 00:26:02,260 --> 00:26:08,530 The other habit I would say too, is that be back up, back up and 523 00:26:08,540 --> 00:26:11,990 look at the bigger picture. I find that getting you stuck in 524 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,490 the weeds is definitely interesting in some ways. 525 00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:16,450 Get very, very deep. And you know, like I did 526 00:26:16,460 --> 00:26:18,430 actually just say, get very, very deep and figure out what 527 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,900 you like to learn about. But then also back up, back up 528 00:26:20,910 --> 00:26:23,730 and look at the bigger picture. I think like we, I think that 529 00:26:23,740 --> 00:26:26,850 what happened to me is that I got really, really sort of 530 00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:29,170 focused on narrow focused, right? 531 00:26:29,180 --> 00:26:33,150 When I got into law school, Everybody's like, OC I, this is 532 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,410 when it's happening. This is what you need to do. 533 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,530 So immediately my view got narrowed to something super 534 00:26:38,540 --> 00:26:40,560 small and I was like, OK, that's all I have to focus on. 535 00:26:40,570 --> 00:26:41,730 That's all I need to think about. 536 00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:44,790 What I've learned over time is that if you back up and look at 537 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,890 the bigger picture, it's so much easier to see where something 538 00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:49,430 fits. And so like, if you're like, I 539 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,800 really, really like this one thing, OK, back up. 540 00:26:52,850 --> 00:26:55,600 Are you actually going to be able to get into some kind of 541 00:26:55,610 --> 00:26:57,960 work that that is in that category? 542 00:26:58,330 --> 00:27:02,310 If the rest of your life looks like XYZ, whatever you just had 543 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,520 three new, you know, you had triplets just now. 544 00:27:04,530 --> 00:27:07,350 And then you also have you also have someone that you're 545 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:09,570 caregiving for, an adult and elderly person that your 546 00:27:09,580 --> 00:27:11,720 caregiving for. Is it actually possible for you 547 00:27:11,730 --> 00:27:13,710 to do all those things that you're really interested in 548 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,190 writing? Maybe not. 549 00:27:15,270 --> 00:27:17,590 And so if that is the case, there's nothing wrong with that. 550 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,250 That's just a matter of making a list for yourself of this is 551 00:27:20,260 --> 00:27:23,330 things I go back to later and I can revisit when I have these 552 00:27:23,340 --> 00:27:26,020 following things in place so I can actually do it. 553 00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:28,590 So I would say backing up and looking at the bigger picture is 554 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,900 really, really important as well so that you can weave in what 555 00:27:31,910 --> 00:27:34,950 you like, what you don't like. But then also that fits into 556 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,270 this bigger picture. And then when you back up and 557 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,990 see this bigger picture, you also then have a much better 558 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,070 view of what that goal is that you ultimately want. 559 00:27:43,140 --> 00:27:45,600 And when you come back up and see whether these things fit, 560 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,900 then you're going to have a better idea of how much you want 561 00:27:47,910 --> 00:27:50,570 to pursue it. Or maybe that's not a right now 562 00:27:50,580 --> 00:27:53,690 thing. The last skill I would say, or 563 00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:57,430 the last sort of thing that was really helpful for me was to be 564 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,730 open minded about all of it, Don't I? 565 00:28:00,740 --> 00:28:04,870 I find that we, or at least I did, was judging myself very, 566 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,990 very, very harshly when I was like, OK, I don't want to be a 567 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,870 lawyer anymore, what am I going to do next? 568 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,450 And then the judgment of like, why would you ever do that? 569 00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:16,070 That's ridiculous. You spent so much money and time 570 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,840 and energy and it can still help you and it'll pay the bills, 571 00:28:18,850 --> 00:28:20,990 blah, blah, blah. Lots and lots of judgment. 572 00:28:21,050 --> 00:28:23,600 But keep an open mind. Keep an open mind because you 573 00:28:23,610 --> 00:28:27,020 know what, ultimately, what is gonna make you happy may not be 574 00:28:27,030 --> 00:28:30,810 something that your parents, your professor, your mentors, 575 00:28:30,820 --> 00:28:34,200 your siblings, your friends, whoever coworkers, doesn't 576 00:28:34,210 --> 00:28:35,760 matter. It might not be for them. 577 00:28:35,770 --> 00:28:38,080 And so there's going to be, there's going to be 578 00:28:38,090 --> 00:28:41,200 disagreement, but ultimately, keep an open mind. 579 00:28:41,210 --> 00:28:43,200 What makes you happy is what makes you happy. 580 00:28:43,270 --> 00:28:45,000 You're the one who has to live your life. 581 00:28:45,010 --> 00:28:48,000 You're the one who actually has to do this day in, day out, even 582 00:28:48,010 --> 00:28:50,180 on the bad days. And if you pick something that 583 00:28:50,190 --> 00:28:53,450 you're not actually passionate about, you're not, I have news 584 00:28:53,460 --> 00:28:54,620 for you. You're not going to have the 585 00:28:54,630 --> 00:28:56,480 energy to do the things on the bad days. 586 00:28:56,550 --> 00:28:59,580 So you need to pick something that is going to actually give 587 00:28:59,590 --> 00:29:01,400 you energy, even on those bad days. 588 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,030 That's what's going to make you happy and feel good about it, 589 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,610 not anybody else. So who cares what anyone else 590 00:29:06,620 --> 00:29:08,520 thinks? Keep an open mind, do what makes 591 00:29:08,530 --> 00:29:10,510 you happy, do it how you want to. 592 00:29:10,580 --> 00:29:14,150 You are a smart person who got this far in life making the 593 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,520 decisions that you have made, so why can't you continue to do 594 00:29:17,530 --> 00:29:19,070 that for yourself? You will get there. 595 00:29:19,140 --> 00:29:23,250 It's just about staying focused and doing what works for you. 596 00:29:23,290 --> 00:29:26,610 That's incredible to hear. I love that you gave some 597 00:29:26,620 --> 00:29:29,820 encouraging words on the sense of if you can't do it right now, 598 00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:33,170 write down a list and maybe in a couple of months or years, you 599 00:29:33,180 --> 00:29:35,750 definitely don't need to give up on maybe those those dreams of 600 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,750 goals because of the current circumstances. 601 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,230 And I think that that's just so powerful. 602 00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:43,870 But also, you know, we've talked a little bit about your role 603 00:29:43,940 --> 00:29:46,760 and, and how it's, you know, helping with the legal 604 00:29:46,770 --> 00:29:49,260 experience and all of that. I'd love to hear a little bit 605 00:29:49,270 --> 00:29:54,160 about what the day-to-day looks like for you nowadays. 606 00:29:54,250 --> 00:29:57,580 And then also, if I may even ask, you know, how how much 607 00:29:57,650 --> 00:30:01,680 technology also helps you in that mission. 608 00:30:01,690 --> 00:30:03,720 Oh. Yeah, yeah. 609 00:30:03,730 --> 00:30:08,080 The day-to-day, the day-to-day, I spend a lot of time talking to 610 00:30:08,090 --> 00:30:11,980 lawyers and wanting to know where they are at essentially in 611 00:30:11,990 --> 00:30:13,820 their career and what's next for them. 612 00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:16,220 And some are, you know, just getting to the beginning of that 613 00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:19,080 journey and realizing, wait a minute, there might be something 614 00:30:19,090 --> 00:30:20,900 else out there that I'm missing out on. 615 00:30:20,910 --> 00:30:23,020 And others are definitely farther along. 616 00:30:23,030 --> 00:30:25,020 And you know what? This is what I want to do. 617 00:30:25,030 --> 00:30:28,010 This is what makes me happy. And, you know, I just want to 618 00:30:28,020 --> 00:30:30,380 work with killer lots of different conversations. 619 00:30:30,390 --> 00:30:33,120 Some it's about sort of giving people helping give people the 620 00:30:33,130 --> 00:30:36,950 space to think about what's possible and what, you know, 621 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,200 they could possibly be doing with all of their experience and 622 00:30:40,210 --> 00:30:43,050 and, you know, qualifications and all of that. 623 00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:48,020 But also I would say that some days it's also about telling 624 00:30:48,030 --> 00:30:51,960 lawyers, a sort of essentially telling lawyers that there is 625 00:30:51,970 --> 00:30:55,100 1/3 path and we are making this new path. 626 00:30:55,110 --> 00:30:57,180 And these are the following things that we thought of that 627 00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:59,940 actually solve all of the problems of the other paths for 628 00:30:59,950 --> 00:31:02,040 people. And so it's funny because I do a 629 00:31:02,050 --> 00:31:05,170 lot of sort of educating, I would say, on what this new path 630 00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:07,980 looks like and how it is quite different than what we're used 631 00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:11,020 to seeing. And the, I think actually what I 632 00:31:11,030 --> 00:31:14,040 do a lot of is addressing the fact that it all seems like it's 633 00:31:14,050 --> 00:31:16,940 too good to be true. And so I'm often like, I know it 634 00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:19,620 seems like this is too good to be true, but I am living it. 635 00:31:19,630 --> 00:31:22,420 And I'm telling you, yes, there are some downsides. 636 00:31:22,430 --> 00:31:25,460 And here are the downsides. There's not many of them, but 637 00:31:25,470 --> 00:31:28,220 here are the downsides. But there really is not a lot at 638 00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:30,260 all to the downside. So I guess I'm addressing a lot 639 00:31:30,270 --> 00:31:33,850 of anticipated objections, I suppose. 640 00:31:33,860 --> 00:31:37,730 So in a way it's still sort of using legal skills, right, and 641 00:31:37,740 --> 00:31:39,370 dealing with anticipated objections. 642 00:31:39,420 --> 00:31:42,020 So the day-to-day is very much about talking with lawyers and 643 00:31:42,030 --> 00:31:45,550 explaining this new path because for many it's just not fully 644 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,150 understood because it's new. And then I would say the other 645 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,310 piece of it is sort of also about shedding what my 646 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,570 experience was in, in the profession so that I can better 647 00:31:55,580 --> 00:31:59,330 come up with new ways to improve the lawyer experience. 648 00:31:59,340 --> 00:32:01,480 So how do we get you into mandates? 649 00:32:01,490 --> 00:32:05,630 Once we get you into mandates, how can we support you in a way 650 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,780 that makes sense for this, this new path, which is different 651 00:32:09,790 --> 00:32:12,950 than being in a law firm and is different than being permanent 652 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:14,770 full time salaried in-house employee? 653 00:32:14,780 --> 00:32:19,560 How do we build things and how do we support lawyers in a way 654 00:32:19,570 --> 00:32:22,080 that makes sense in this specific model? 655 00:32:22,130 --> 00:32:24,820 One of those things is definitely technology. 656 00:32:24,830 --> 00:32:28,380 I would say The funny thing is like in the specific way that we 657 00:32:28,390 --> 00:32:31,920 run our, our model, which is fixed fee mandates for lawyers 658 00:32:31,930 --> 00:32:34,600 working with clients. Technology is actually this 659 00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:38,420 beautiful, wonderful thing because in our model, the goal 660 00:32:38,430 --> 00:32:41,820 is for lawyers to become lean and efficient, which is 661 00:32:41,910 --> 00:32:44,920 completely different than what we've seen before in in the firm 662 00:32:44,930 --> 00:32:47,360 model. And the obviously when you're 663 00:32:47,370 --> 00:32:50,000 working under a fixed fee model, lawyers are incentivized to 664 00:32:50,010 --> 00:32:53,530 become lean and efficient. And so how do we support this on 665 00:32:53,540 --> 00:32:55,830 the good lawyer side? We can certainly support this 666 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,680 with tech, whether this is about specific, whatever invoicing or 667 00:32:59,690 --> 00:33:02,910 BD or marketing or whatever, we can support this on the back end 668 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,040 with whatever we choose for tech, but also in the ways the 669 00:33:06,050 --> 00:33:09,110 lawyers are practicing. One of the things that we find 670 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,840 often is that lawyers are chit chatting amongst each other all 671 00:33:11,850 --> 00:33:14,900 the time about different types of tech tools that they can use, 672 00:33:14,910 --> 00:33:18,330 whether it's contract drafting or whether it's how do I intake 673 00:33:18,340 --> 00:33:21,770 clients or, or, or whatever, a million different tools out 674 00:33:21,780 --> 00:33:23,180 there. Lawyers are chatting about this 675 00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:25,620 all the time because again, it is a way for them to be more 676 00:33:25,630 --> 00:33:27,750 efficient. They're still going to provide 677 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,290 value to their clients and they'll provide quite a lot of 678 00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:33,690 value to their clients in building out different, for 679 00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:37,140 example, different contract management systems, using those 680 00:33:37,150 --> 00:33:39,930 to help build out, you know, a really great sort of contract 681 00:33:39,940 --> 00:33:44,260 flow for your client, but also helping the lawyers save a good 682 00:33:44,270 --> 00:33:48,780 solid chunk of time in their contract reviews and revisions. 683 00:33:48,790 --> 00:33:52,500 When you can sort of get the basics scratched off the list 684 00:33:52,510 --> 00:33:54,140 with a tool. And then you can go through, of 685 00:33:54,150 --> 00:33:56,680 course, you will still review it, but it's prevented you from 686 00:33:56,690 --> 00:33:59,700 dealing with the situation of what clause should I be using, 687 00:33:59,710 --> 00:34:01,400 what language? Oh, I have this favorite 688 00:34:01,410 --> 00:34:02,860 language. I can't find it. 689 00:34:02,930 --> 00:34:07,240 I don't know, things like that. And so tools are 100% the way 690 00:34:07,250 --> 00:34:10,179 for lawyers to build a practice that is sort of, I would say 691 00:34:10,190 --> 00:34:13,280 like a future, a future type of practice, which is all about 692 00:34:13,290 --> 00:34:16,170 being lean and efficient. And so do I think that 693 00:34:16,179 --> 00:34:19,060 technology is going to help? Absolutely, it's going to help. 694 00:34:19,070 --> 00:34:21,219 Can it hurt if not used properly? 695 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,360 Absolutely. But that's just like any other 696 00:34:23,370 --> 00:34:26,670 tool that we've ever been given. I mean, I could use my, I can 697 00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:30,270 drive to my office going to work and use my car incorrectly and 698 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,510 get into an accident. That's not great. 699 00:34:32,580 --> 00:34:35,550 But if I use it correctly, generally is going to be fine, 700 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,350 right? Absolutely. 701 00:34:37,409 --> 00:34:41,330 So Pauline, to wrap up today's episode, I've, I've read a 702 00:34:41,340 --> 00:34:44,420 little bit of what you wrote in the past, as I mentioned, and I 703 00:34:44,429 --> 00:34:47,170 also saw that one of the things that you've mentioned a couple 704 00:34:47,179 --> 00:34:50,469 of Times Now is that you're not afraid to try new things. 705 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,639 I love driving reading that about you. 706 00:34:52,699 --> 00:34:56,389 So I wanted to ask you what's giving you the most energy right 707 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,790 now, whether it's, you know, your legal, creative, personal, 708 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,380 in, in, in, in this month, this summer, what's been on your 709 00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:05,950 mind? Well, I couldn't have heard 710 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,270 anything more exciting. So that's awesome. 711 00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:12,480 Very, very, very fun to hear and once again, really appreciate 712 00:35:12,490 --> 00:35:14,420 getting the opportunity to hear your insights. 713 00:35:14,430 --> 00:35:16,440 I'm sure audience will love it as much. 714 00:35:16,450 --> 00:35:18,270 Thanks again. Really, really thank you. 715 00:35:18,370 --> 00:35:20,920 Absolutely. May this be just the the one of 716 00:35:20,930 --> 00:35:22,940 many. Thank you all for tuning in, and 717 00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:24,730 we'll see you all in the next episode.