1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to studying law around the world. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,280 I'm Claudio. Claus in each episode. 3 00:00:17,350 --> 00:00:20,280 I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from 4 00:00:20,290 --> 00:00:23,560 different parts of the world to talk about legal education, 5 00:00:23,670 --> 00:00:26,420 careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,840 is for you. Today I'm interviewing Nick 11 00:00:44,850 --> 00:00:46,880 Cohen. Thank you so much for taking the 12 00:00:46,890 --> 00:00:50,190 time to be here in the podcast. I'm very excited to learn a lot 13 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,280 about your story with marketing, with law firms and with being in 14 00:00:54,430 --> 00:00:56,120 in the field for quite a while now. 15 00:00:56,190 --> 00:00:57,700 Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. 16 00:00:57,710 --> 00:01:00,420 I love talking about this stuff, so thanks for thanks for having 17 00:01:00,430 --> 00:01:03,130 me. On Absolutely and Nikos off here 18 00:01:03,140 --> 00:01:06,100 today, I'd love for you to introduce yourself and share a 19 00:01:06,110 --> 00:01:09,200 little bit about your story and how you ended up working this 20 00:01:09,210 --> 00:01:13,040 interesting intersection of like law, marketing, business. 21 00:01:13,130 --> 00:01:16,460 Yeah. So I come from a very large 22 00:01:16,470 --> 00:01:20,700 family of lawyers on the son of two trial lawyers. 23 00:01:20,810 --> 00:01:24,140 My brother is an attorney, my uncle is an attorney. 24 00:01:24,150 --> 00:01:28,490 I have 3 cousins in law school and I have another cousin is an 25 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:30,590 attorney. And so I was born into this sort 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,880 of intense attorney world. Or when I was younger, I started 27 00:01:33,890 --> 00:01:37,730 helping my parents do their marketing at their law firm in 28 00:01:37,740 --> 00:01:40,140 Washington, DC. And today it's one of the most 29 00:01:40,150 --> 00:01:44,070 well known critical injury plaintiffs firms in the DC, 30 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,350 Maryland, Virginia area. As we got really good at it, we 31 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,850 started helping other firms with it and my company Matador 32 00:01:50,860 --> 00:01:54,090 Solutions was warrant. What mattered or does is 33 00:01:54,150 --> 00:01:57,810 basically helps small to mid sized law firms get more cases 34 00:01:57,820 --> 00:02:00,300 using the Internet and then we share information amongst all 35 00:02:00,310 --> 00:02:03,250 the firms. So it's like a hybrid agency 36 00:02:03,260 --> 00:02:06,670 needs to think tech. While I was building, you know, 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,820 assisting and building Matador, I went to law school at night 38 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,430 and got my JD and then I took the bar and passed, thank God, 39 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,530 and opened up a law firm just a couple of months ago. 40 00:02:17,540 --> 00:02:19,670 So today I straddle sort of both worlds. 41 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,690 I have my own law firm and I have matter war and I, you know, 42 00:02:23,700 --> 00:02:25,510 love doing both. Amazing. 43 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,410 So I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, this 44 00:02:28,420 --> 00:02:32,250 experience of starting very, very young both, you know, I, I 45 00:02:32,260 --> 00:02:36,370 guess hearing a lot about the law dinner table and then also 46 00:02:36,380 --> 00:02:41,470 actually getting some, you know, work boots on the ground in, you 47 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,190 know, cold engine business online and all of that. 48 00:02:44,260 --> 00:02:47,290 How did those early experiences shape the way you you think 49 00:02:47,300 --> 00:02:50,360 about growth today and and the way the internets working? 50 00:02:50,420 --> 00:02:53,140 Yeah. So I don't really take any, you 51 00:02:53,150 --> 00:02:56,340 know, at the time or something fun my dad and I were doing, 52 00:02:56,350 --> 00:02:58,630 he's a techie kind of guy as well. 53 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,890 And you know, combined what we're doing there with our 54 00:03:01,900 --> 00:03:06,040 decisions about cases my parents were working or really, you 55 00:03:06,050 --> 00:03:09,260 know, intense trials they were doing, it sort of gave me a 56 00:03:09,270 --> 00:03:11,300 different appreciation for what lawyers do. 57 00:03:11,650 --> 00:03:13,300 People don't normally like lawyers. 58 00:03:13,350 --> 00:03:15,590 I love lawyers. And then in starting that adore, 59 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,600 it was really something my dad had started doing. 60 00:03:17,610 --> 00:03:20,500 I wasn't selling the picture at the time just to help friends 61 00:03:20,510 --> 00:03:23,010 and family who were frustrated with Internet marketing. 62 00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:25,680 And this was a decade ago. And then guys that got re 63 00:03:25,690 --> 00:03:28,580 involved in it, we really started to push it because we 64 00:03:28,590 --> 00:03:32,030 had a great product market fit, so to speak, of what lawyers 65 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,160 needed and what we could offer. And then, you know, I think in 66 00:03:35,170 --> 00:03:38,430 the business front, those childhood experiences of allowed 67 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:43,670 me to understand the business of law in a way that most, not all, 68 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,470 but most marketers just don't fully understand. 69 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,390 And so we're able to ingrain that in the DNA of our company. 70 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,770 And you know, what types of cases are good? 71 00:03:52,780 --> 00:03:55,070 What's bad, why are they good? Why are they bad? 72 00:03:55,140 --> 00:03:57,220 Why is this keyword good to go after? 73 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,110 And so it allows us and affords us just this unique 74 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:05,360 understanding of lawyers in the business side of law that I 75 00:04:05,370 --> 00:04:08,290 don't know, You know, I'm sure I would have learned otherwise, 76 00:04:08,300 --> 00:04:10,960 but the learning curve would have been a lot harder. 77 00:04:10,970 --> 00:04:13,370 No, that's amazing. It's it's been very interesting 78 00:04:13,380 --> 00:04:18,110 to chat with lawyers here in the podcast and to see how that goes 79 00:04:18,190 --> 00:04:21,899 when you go in a law firm through the, you know, the track 80 00:04:21,910 --> 00:04:25,120 of thing and associate becoming a partner and kind of at some 81 00:04:25,130 --> 00:04:28,080 experiences having to become somewhat of a ring maker 82 00:04:28,090 --> 00:04:30,520 overnight and figuring it all out really quickly. 83 00:04:30,530 --> 00:04:34,040 So it's awesome that you got you learned that early on, but also 84 00:04:34,050 --> 00:04:37,320 it's interesting that it's it's a very different approach, I 85 00:04:37,330 --> 00:04:41,540 feel like right. So I'm not sure sure 86 00:04:41,550 --> 00:04:46,410 specifically about your industry and how you go about it, but 87 00:04:46,420 --> 00:04:49,710 I've been seeing lots of things about how you know, over the the 88 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,470 past, I don't know, 1020 years, there was a big focus on like 89 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,830 search engine optimization. Now there's a little bit of a 90 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:00,790 focus on like you on your answer should be shown up by AI. 91 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,210 So there's there's so many different places you should be 92 00:05:04,220 --> 00:05:08,470 working on and I'm sure there's interesting industry has changed 93 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,430 somewhat in the last few years. I'd love to hear a little bit 94 00:05:11,580 --> 00:05:14,730 more about that as we go through our conversation here today. 95 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,770 Still on on the topic of of your story and career eventually lost 96 00:05:18,780 --> 00:05:20,900 who at night while working full time. 97 00:05:20,910 --> 00:05:24,750 You just mentioned that, you know what, what did I teach you 98 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,290 about discipline, trade-offs, long-term thinking? 99 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,450 And if you could tell us a little more about this specific 100 00:05:30,460 --> 00:05:32,310 experience? I don't think as far as I know, 101 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,670 Canada does not offer any program like that. 102 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,770 So I'm so glad that different places are offering that kind of 103 00:05:37,780 --> 00:05:39,750 experience. I I personally know somebody 104 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,600 who's studying in the UK grown Canada, so it's an online 105 00:05:43,610 --> 00:05:45,600 degree. I saw that like Arizona State 106 00:05:45,610 --> 00:05:48,530 University offers a hard time remote JD. 107 00:05:48,580 --> 00:05:51,370 So I'm just curious to hear a little bit about how that 108 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,210 experience went for. You it was hell and well worth 109 00:05:54,220 --> 00:05:55,730 it. So let me talk a little bit 110 00:05:55,740 --> 00:05:58,350 about my life. Looks like for four years. 111 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:03,450 So night school is a fantastic decision and I'll talk about why 112 00:06:03,460 --> 00:06:05,230 I think it's such a good decision and then I'll talk 113 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,530 about my schedule. So reason number one is 114 00:06:08,580 --> 00:06:11,930 financially law by law school makes a lot more sense. 115 00:06:11,940 --> 00:06:15,790 If you're able to work during the day, you won't have at a 116 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,380 minimum cost of living lungs, right? 117 00:06:18,390 --> 00:06:22,010 You can pay your living expenses while you're in school and limit 118 00:06:22,020 --> 00:06:24,450 your loans and you go to the school that gives you the most 119 00:06:24,460 --> 00:06:27,330 money wherever it is. And the US law school is very 120 00:06:27,340 --> 00:06:30,130 expensive. You're going to be better off 121 00:06:30,140 --> 00:06:32,130 when you graduate. So that that's the first piece 122 00:06:32,140 --> 00:06:33,450 that I think is really important. 123 00:06:33,460 --> 00:06:36,750 The third, the second piece of why night law schools should 124 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,290 decision was the discipline. My schedule. 125 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:45,650 In my case, I was out of the house for 14 hours a day during 126 00:06:45,660 --> 00:06:49,190 night law school and driving, and it was insane. 127 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,150 And I'll get to the schedule in a second. 128 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,330 But the discipline you learned from having to do that, you 129 00:06:54,340 --> 00:06:57,090 don't have a choice and you don't have an option to be 130 00:06:57,420 --> 00:07:01,230 inefficient or waste time. And then the third thing is the 131 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,610 people. And this isn't a Ding on day 132 00:07:04,620 --> 00:07:08,430 students at all, but in my experience with night students, 133 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,100 you know, I started when I was 25 years old and I was one of 134 00:07:11,110 --> 00:07:13,360 the youngest people, not the youngest, but one of them. 135 00:07:13,460 --> 00:07:18,800 And people in my class had families and marriages and kids 136 00:07:18,810 --> 00:07:21,890 and so much important stuff. And so the people were there not 137 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:24,410 to bring anybody down. There was no competitiveness. 138 00:07:24,420 --> 00:07:27,150 Everyone helped each other out, lifted each other up when they 139 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,980 needed it, and they were there for the right reasons as opposed 140 00:07:29,990 --> 00:07:32,530 to somebody who just graduated college is like crap. 141 00:07:32,540 --> 00:07:34,390 I don't know what to do. I'm gonna go to law school and 142 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,410 take out, you know, 200,000 loans and that's what I'm gonna 143 00:07:37,420 --> 00:07:39,040 do. So those are the three big 144 00:07:39,050 --> 00:07:41,690 things that night lost all taught me. 145 00:07:41,740 --> 00:07:44,270 Now, it wasn't at all easy, right? 146 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,320 My schedule was, I was in my case in the office at 7:30 in 147 00:07:48,330 --> 00:07:50,770 the morning, right? So it's up at 6:30, in the 148 00:07:50,780 --> 00:07:55,610 office at 7:30 and I work straight through lunch, straight 149 00:07:55,620 --> 00:07:58,870 until about 4:30. So around 7:30 to 4:30. 150 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,120 And then I would sit in the car for an hour and a half to drive 151 00:08:02,130 --> 00:08:04,300 to downtown LA from Santa Monica. 152 00:08:05,790 --> 00:08:07,680 That would take an hour and a half because of the traffic. 153 00:08:07,690 --> 00:08:10,500 And then I have class from 6:00 PM to 10:00 PM. 154 00:08:10,910 --> 00:08:12,900 And then I'd get out of class at 10:00 PM. 155 00:08:13,030 --> 00:08:16,200 I'd get home at 10:30. I would make an egg sandwich. 156 00:08:16,270 --> 00:08:19,820 I'd have that egg sandwich eaten and done by like, I don't know, 157 00:08:19,830 --> 00:08:24,660 10:45 or 10:50 in the shower, out of the shower by like 1105 158 00:08:24,670 --> 00:08:27,320 in bed, 10 minutes later, up at 6:30, do it again. 159 00:08:27,330 --> 00:08:30,860 And that was one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. 160 00:08:30,910 --> 00:08:33,500 But it was well over there for the reasons I spoke about 161 00:08:33,510 --> 00:08:36,909 earlier. And I think, you know, working 162 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:40,250 during the day and going to law school at night, it affords you 163 00:08:40,260 --> 00:08:44,410 a understanding of the world and allows you to put together like 164 00:08:44,420 --> 00:08:48,480 legal theory and rules and case law in a way that if you're just 165 00:08:48,490 --> 00:08:51,570 going straight into it, you can't fully understand or you're 166 00:08:51,580 --> 00:08:53,850 learning curve will be higher. It's the same as if somebody 167 00:08:53,860 --> 00:08:57,110 takes five years off before law school and goes and goes. 168 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,930 Amazing, a very, very interesting phase of life. 169 00:09:00,940 --> 00:09:05,400 I actually personally also did had an interesting experience. 170 00:09:05,410 --> 00:09:09,530 So I I grew up in Brazil and you can actually do high school at 171 00:09:09,540 --> 00:09:12,770 night time because so many of the students work during the 172 00:09:12,780 --> 00:09:14,680 day. So we do have high school during 173 00:09:14,690 --> 00:09:16,300 the night. Well, it does the same thing 174 00:09:16,310 --> 00:09:19,520 happens with law school, but law school in in civil law countries 175 00:09:19,530 --> 00:09:22,570 is usually a bachelor's degree, five years bachelor's degree at 176 00:09:22,580 --> 00:09:24,740 night, studying all through high school. 177 00:09:24,780 --> 00:09:26,750 Sorry, working through high school and college. 178 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,670 It was it was highly experienced. 179 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:31,510 But I'm glad that like other markets are getting a little bit 180 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,450 more friendly towards the the possibility of being able to do 181 00:09:35,460 --> 00:09:38,110 more than one thing at once. And I feel like that brings a 182 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,470 little bit more of an understanding on the market as 183 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,310 well that that those things are possible and that, you know, 184 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,250 people just have to do what they gotta do that especially when 185 00:09:46,260 --> 00:09:50,410 lost, who's so expensive. Yeah, and now you could probably 186 00:09:50,420 --> 00:09:55,210 work and like it's nothing and you're efficient and you don't 187 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,780 get caught up in the ES and you're able to just, you know, 188 00:09:58,790 --> 00:10:00,730 that was my that was my experience, right? 189 00:10:00,740 --> 00:10:03,170 And I think a lot of people are real, but shared that 190 00:10:03,180 --> 00:10:04,480 experience. And I would speak today's 191 00:10:04,490 --> 00:10:06,690 students and they'd be like, it's so cut throat, it's so 192 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:08,690 competitive. I don't know what you're talking 193 00:10:08,700 --> 00:10:10,400 about. I love my classmates and I don't 194 00:10:10,410 --> 00:10:15,040 care who's, you know, 1st or last or whatever it is. 195 00:10:15,050 --> 00:10:17,280 And maybe this is something worth getting into because I 196 00:10:17,290 --> 00:10:20,910 was, you know, I started out and after my first year, I was #4 in 197 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,220 my class. And because of that, they gave 198 00:10:23,230 --> 00:10:25,770 me a 90% scholarship. And then after that, I just let 199 00:10:25,780 --> 00:10:29,000 it, you know, taper down. But the person who was #1 in my 200 00:10:29,010 --> 00:10:31,970 class, she had two kids and a full time job. 201 00:10:32,020 --> 00:10:33,670 Like my life was nothing compared to her. 202 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,230 No, that's amazing. It, it definitely gives you an 203 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:41,490 opportunity to so maybe you know, get that, maybe like that 204 00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:44,600 highlight that you wouldn't get otherwise in an environment 205 00:10:44,610 --> 00:10:47,890 where you like basically studies is the only thing you're focused 206 00:10:47,900 --> 00:10:49,770 on. So that's very interesting and 207 00:10:49,780 --> 00:10:52,210 definitely makes a difference on the demographic that attends 208 00:10:52,220 --> 00:10:54,430 that. And so it's, it's quite, it's 209 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,370 quite an interesting experience, personally speaking. 210 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,950 But, but tell me a little more about, you know, your current 211 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:02,230 role. I understand you're the founder 212 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,450 and the, the CEO at matter and you work with over 150 law 213 00:11:06,460 --> 00:11:08,370 firms. So I wanted to hear, you know, a 214 00:11:08,380 --> 00:11:10,630 little bit about what kind of work you do, what your 215 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,230 day-to-day look like and then what firms have to do, you know, 216 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,830 to get and stay on track getting revenue that that comes from 217 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,480 those ads from that market. So I'm not, I'm not the founder 218 00:11:22,490 --> 00:11:26,230 of the company was started by my dad and as I mentioned, it was, 219 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:29,910 you know, family and friends sort of business and then I got 220 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:31,870 involved and we've been growing it together. 221 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:37,140 I'm not the original founder, I'm operating it and my 222 00:11:37,150 --> 00:11:43,760 day-to-day, you know as we've grown over 180 law firms as that 223 00:11:43,770 --> 00:11:49,040 we work with, you know my day-to-day split up about and 224 00:11:49,050 --> 00:11:51,600 fifths, right. So 20% of the time I'm talking 225 00:11:51,610 --> 00:11:54,480 to new potential members or clients, 20% of the day I'm 226 00:11:54,490 --> 00:11:57,950 talking to existing members, right? 227 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,030 Just, you know, working with our account managers and things like 228 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,510 that. 20% of the day I'm spending on SEO strategies and 229 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:11,530 marketing, 20% of the day I'm spending on HR, finance, that 230 00:12:11,540 --> 00:12:13,660 sort of stuff. And then the other 20% of the 231 00:12:13,670 --> 00:12:17,020 day I'm getting pulled into wherever people need me as kind 232 00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:19,490 of the support. And so you know how my hand in a 233 00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:22,830 lot of different things. And that's been a really great 234 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,020 it's also really hard and to compete today as as a law firm, 235 00:12:27,220 --> 00:12:30,410 you know, you don't need to spend buckets of money and and 236 00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:32,850 you know, depending on your you're gonna go compete in 237 00:12:32,860 --> 00:12:35,170 personal injury like you use your build a little bit of a war 238 00:12:35,180 --> 00:12:37,310 chest. But you know, most firms can get 239 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,150 a long way just by networking and building Google reviews for 240 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,170 you and hiring somebody like me and then wanted to hire somebody 241 00:12:44,180 --> 00:12:45,830 like me. It's sort of supercharged it. 242 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,570 That's sort of what my day looks like. 243 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,250 Amazing, now that sounds sounds quite interesting. 244 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,490 It's always interesting for me as well. 245 00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:55,430 Should conquer people who who divide their practice with all 246 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,280 their things. Personally, I do the podcast 247 00:12:58,290 --> 00:13:00,870 because they really energizes me to talk with people getting to 248 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:05,210 know people in in the profession or you know, in other roles. 249 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,170 Sometimes that the professional setting, it's hard to strike 250 00:13:08,220 --> 00:13:10,960 more like personal conversations, asking people 251 00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:12,340 about their careers and all of that. 252 00:13:12,430 --> 00:13:15,610 Oftentimes clients are very, very open to chatting, but they 253 00:13:15,620 --> 00:13:17,970 also have very limited amount of time and you don't want to be, 254 00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:19,940 you know, setting it up too much. 255 00:13:19,950 --> 00:13:23,790 So it's, it's definitely a way that I found you out of that in 256 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,820 the world. And I'm curious here now talking 257 00:13:26,830 --> 00:13:29,640 about, you know, specifically the work you do a lot of 258 00:13:29,650 --> 00:13:32,830 lawyers, including myself, you know, there's so many little 259 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,140 words, you know, SEO, AI, search, digital visibility, 260 00:13:37,510 --> 00:13:40,780 there's all these things. And then in another hand, 261 00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:44,000 there's like different bar associations or different parts 262 00:13:44,010 --> 00:13:46,380 of the country who have different regulations and 263 00:13:46,390 --> 00:13:49,050 advertise legal services and this and that. 264 00:13:49,110 --> 00:13:52,640 So what do you think it matters the most if people are trying to 265 00:13:52,650 --> 00:13:55,750 build their know their brand or their firm now? 266 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,890 What matters the most before you worry about colours, fonts, 267 00:13:59,980 --> 00:14:03,410 whether you know, whether your long hair, short hair, what 268 00:14:03,420 --> 00:14:07,050 matters the most is are you in front of people when they need 269 00:14:07,060 --> 00:14:09,280 you? At the end of the day, you could 270 00:14:09,290 --> 00:14:12,550 be the best lawyer in the world. You don't have cases. 271 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:14,820 It doesn't matter for your business. 272 00:14:14,830 --> 00:14:16,170 Sorry about the business side, right? 273 00:14:16,180 --> 00:14:20,070 Personal is different, but I think people get people over 274 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,370 index. They overvalue branding when 275 00:14:23,380 --> 00:14:24,990 they're starting out. It's important. 276 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,290 I'm not saying it's not as opposed to getting in front of 277 00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:28,980 people and you need them. And so that can look like a lot 278 00:14:28,990 --> 00:14:31,270 of different things, right? If we're talking about search 279 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,290 engine optimization, what that is mostly Google, Bing, Yahoo, 280 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,800 if we're talking about generative engine optimizations, 281 00:14:38,810 --> 00:14:41,990 which is AI search or AEO, it's all kind of the same. 282 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,810 But the term that's winning is generative engine optimization. 283 00:14:44,820 --> 00:14:46,670 You need to be in front of people when they're searching. 284 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,600 So for example, we got a call today from somebody who was a or 285 00:14:50,610 --> 00:14:53,220 not we, I was on the call with the firm we worked with today 286 00:14:53,230 --> 00:14:55,780 and in the middle of Texas, like not where you would think that 287 00:14:55,790 --> 00:14:58,520 AI sort of use adoption is very high. 288 00:14:58,570 --> 00:15:01,900 And so I'm, you know, on with the, my firm that I work with 289 00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:03,800 there. And I'm, we're going through the 290 00:15:03,810 --> 00:15:06,400 call tracking report that we produce and we're listening to 291 00:15:06,410 --> 00:15:09,330 the call and the lawyer asked the potential new client, how 292 00:15:09,340 --> 00:15:12,800 did you hear about us? And she says, I put my issue 293 00:15:12,810 --> 00:15:16,220 into Gemini. I spoke it into Gemini and this 294 00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:17,820 is, and they told me to call you. 295 00:15:17,930 --> 00:15:20,900 And that's like, whoa, you're talking about someone who's 296 00:15:20,990 --> 00:15:24,600 doing an older demographic in a non coastal that's not going to 297 00:15:24,610 --> 00:15:28,760 adopt this fast. And this is how fast adoption is 298 00:15:28,770 --> 00:15:31,220 happening. And so at the end of the day, 299 00:15:31,650 --> 00:15:34,230 right, you need to worry about am I in front of people when 300 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:35,500 they need it? That's it. 301 00:15:35,550 --> 00:15:38,730 So whether that's an ad, right, which I don't love ads, whether 302 00:15:38,740 --> 00:15:42,860 that's an ADSCOGO, social media, organic, whatever it is. 303 00:15:42,970 --> 00:15:47,320 There is A and just going back to that idea of you know, the 304 00:15:47,330 --> 00:15:50,450 different regulations and how that changes kind of depending 305 00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:53,980 on where you are. It's my understanding that you 306 00:15:53,990 --> 00:15:57,470 work not only for the states or for California, you you kind of 307 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,160 have a worldwide practice. So I wanted to hear a little 308 00:16:00,170 --> 00:16:02,920 more about, you know, this rare position that you are being a 309 00:16:02,930 --> 00:16:05,320 licensed lawyer, being a marketing operator. 310 00:16:05,490 --> 00:16:08,820 How does that, you know, legal training change the way you 311 00:16:08,830 --> 00:16:12,500 approach growth, ethics and so forth in in legal marketing? 312 00:16:12,570 --> 00:16:15,300 Yeah, ethics are super important, especially because, 313 00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:17,560 you know, each state's a little bit different. 314 00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:20,340 We typically will follow the ABA and then if there's a unique 315 00:16:20,350 --> 00:16:24,500 state, we'll look at that state. But you have to be smart and you 316 00:16:24,510 --> 00:16:27,000 have to be careful. So one of the things that ranks 317 00:16:27,010 --> 00:16:30,350 really well to show your expertise is talk about whatever 318 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,760 the statute is governing, whatever the statute of 319 00:16:32,770 --> 00:16:36,610 limitations right now, if you misstate that or the lawyer that 320 00:16:36,620 --> 00:16:37,940 you're writing for, you're in trouble. 321 00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:42,780 If you say best ha certain areas of the country, you can't say 322 00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:44,400 that in. And so you have to have strict 323 00:16:44,410 --> 00:16:48,790 guidelines on how you do that. And we have had a lot of 324 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,910 training on this. I provide intense training. 325 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:52,950 It's important to us because most vendors don't think about 326 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,710 it and they just write or they don't know or they rely on their 327 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,030 clients to educate them. But at that time, it's already 328 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,270 too late and you have to be very strict and very thoughtful about 329 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:03,830 it. So yeah, it's important. 330 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,460 Certain laws, like New Jersey has very unique laws on what you 331 00:17:07,470 --> 00:17:09,500 can market for your case results and what you can't. 332 00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:12,579 So you have to be smart there. Yeah, fantastic. 333 00:17:12,589 --> 00:17:15,470 Well, thanks for sharing that you to wrap up today's episode, 334 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,819 I wanted to ask you something more specific to the audience of 335 00:17:18,829 --> 00:17:21,140 the podcast. So a lot of my audience right 336 00:17:21,150 --> 00:17:24,740 now is, you know, professionals finishing up law school or in 337 00:17:24,750 --> 00:17:28,400 their first year. And a recurring question that I 338 00:17:28,410 --> 00:17:31,180 ask is a lot about, you know, ask your guests how they chose 339 00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:33,900 their area of practice and and all of that. 340 00:17:33,910 --> 00:17:36,990 And in this case, I wanted to ask you though, if lawyers are 341 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,100 looking tricks, exploring a little more of entrepreneurship, 342 00:17:40,110 --> 00:17:43,650 business stack, marketing, maybe what what's some kind of advice 343 00:17:43,660 --> 00:17:44,860 that you give? Yeah. 344 00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:47,590 Well, I'll answer like 2 pieces because, right, because I have 345 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,320 my law firm, which is new and we've taken in a couple of cases 346 00:17:51,330 --> 00:17:53,980 this year and that's really exciting and all it's on the 347 00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:55,490 marketing in the business overall. 348 00:17:55,500 --> 00:18:00,520 So my law firm handles personal injury and employment law, and I 349 00:18:00,530 --> 00:18:05,110 found those areas of law particularly interesting in part 350 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:07,830 because I was born into it and I saw the good work that was being 351 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,310 done right. And then I was born into it. 352 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,250 So unique access and viewpoint to it. 353 00:18:12,260 --> 00:18:14,270 And I really loved it. And when I was in the third 354 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,370 grade, I wrote in an essay, right, or an essay, whatever an 355 00:18:17,380 --> 00:18:19,830 essay is in 3rd grade. And my mom found and it just 356 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,270 said lawyers help people. And that's what it said. 357 00:18:22,340 --> 00:18:24,990 And I really think about that a lot like the job of a lawyer is 358 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,630 to be an advocate and see a helper. 359 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,030 And for me, like in the employment law context, 360 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,030 especially if you're able to get somebody who wrongfully 361 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,790 terminated or racially discriminated against or 362 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,790 sexually harassed in the workplace, you're able to help 363 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:38,850 them and it doesn't cost them anything because you're in 364 00:18:38,860 --> 00:18:40,890 contingency. Like I found that just be very 365 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:43,140 gratifying. So I think, you know, and I 366 00:18:43,150 --> 00:18:45,610 think there's a lot of really important legal practices, 367 00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:48,250 right? Family law is very important. 368 00:18:48,340 --> 00:18:50,730 Estate planning is incredibly important. 369 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,910 Bankruptcy is really challenging and really important. 370 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,290 It's all important, right? And so find what's important to 371 00:18:57,300 --> 00:19:00,340 you and make that what you do. Because if you're not doing 372 00:19:00,350 --> 00:19:02,910 things that are exciting to you, every day is going to be a drag. 373 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,610 And I think about that a lot. Like I've gotten excited by 374 00:19:05,620 --> 00:19:08,490 Shiny Object in the past, but that wasn't actually interesting 375 00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:10,850 to me at all. And so when it's uninteresting, 376 00:19:10,860 --> 00:19:13,100 you're just for me, I just wasn't going to give it my best 377 00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:14,670 effort. And on the marketing and 378 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,940 business and entrepreneurship shot, you know, it's the same 379 00:19:17,950 --> 00:19:22,230 thing, except my drive that Matador is really, I mean, I 380 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,450 love SEO. I spend 20% of my day literally 381 00:19:26,460 --> 00:19:30,530 just researching on SEO and I've been in it since I was 12 years 382 00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:33,130 old doing SEO, so a long, long time. 383 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,930 And for me, the love that I have for Matador has nothing to do 384 00:19:36,940 --> 00:19:39,030 with SEO. What it has to do with is 385 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,790 helping good lawyers get the right cases and helping them 386 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:44,890 grow their business. Because I don't work with 100 387 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:47,890 lawyer law firms, I work with 1 to 15 lawyer firms. 388 00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:50,170 And you make a real impact with the work you do. 389 00:19:50,180 --> 00:19:55,040 And so I view it more like I help lawyers help people, and 390 00:19:55,050 --> 00:19:56,360 that's what it's really about for me. 391 00:19:56,470 --> 00:19:58,310 Amazing. Thank you so much for for taking 392 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,180 the time to share a little more about your sorry and thank you 393 00:20:01,190 --> 00:20:03,450 all for tuning into today's. Episode thanks for having me.