1 00:00:13,370 --> 00:00:15,310 Welcome to studying law around the world. 2 00:00:15,530 --> 00:00:18,360 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:18,370 --> 00:00:21,340 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:21,350 --> 00:00:25,600 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:25,610 --> 00:00:27,310 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:28,020 --> 00:00:31,130 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises and the decisions. 7 00:00:31,140 --> 00:00:34,270 That shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,890 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:37,900 --> 00:00:42,010 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:42,020 --> 00:00:45,540 is for you. This episode is sponsored by 11 00:00:45,550 --> 00:00:48,200 Contender. How are you doing on LinkedIn? 12 00:00:48,690 --> 00:00:52,100 If you're like 99% of. 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Tell them Claudio sent you. 24 00:01:33,670 --> 00:01:37,180 Today we have the opportunity to listen to Jonah Purlin. 25 00:01:37,270 --> 00:01:40,520 Jonah is a professor at Georgetown Law, and today he 26 00:01:40,530 --> 00:01:44,280 will be sharing with us a little bit about his profession, his 27 00:01:44,290 --> 00:01:49,160 work as a lawyer early on, and now as a podcaster, also as the 28 00:01:49,230 --> 00:01:53,060 creator of an incredible helpful newsletter called Standout 29 00:01:53,070 --> 00:01:55,340 Summer Associate. Thank you so much for joining us 30 00:01:55,350 --> 00:01:57,150 today. John, thanks so much for having 31 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,310 me. And you know, it's it's an honor 32 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:00,840 to be here. It's always weird being on the 33 00:02:00,890 --> 00:02:04,500 other side of the microphone. I'm having done over, I don't 34 00:02:04,510 --> 00:02:07,580 know, almost 150 episodes myself of my own podcast. 35 00:02:07,590 --> 00:02:11,240 I know how much work it takes. And it is just a real honor to 36 00:02:11,250 --> 00:02:15,010 be here with you, given all the things that you do in public. 37 00:02:15,020 --> 00:02:16,770 So I'm I'm grateful that you asked me to be on. 38 00:02:16,820 --> 00:02:19,150 No, I really appreciate you taking the time to being here 39 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,650 today. And to start this off, I'd love 40 00:02:21,660 --> 00:02:25,110 for our audience to get you hear from you a little better about 41 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,340 who are you? Can you introduce yourself to 42 00:02:27,350 --> 00:02:28,980 your option? Where Are you sure? 43 00:02:28,990 --> 00:02:31,810 Yes. So as you said, I teach full 44 00:02:31,820 --> 00:02:34,730 time at my alma mater, Georgetown Law School, and I 45 00:02:34,740 --> 00:02:37,220 came to Georgetown. Let's see, I just finished my 46 00:02:37,230 --> 00:02:40,710 7th year full time teaching. I teach legal practice, which is 47 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,050 what we call it Georgetown, sort of previously known as legal 48 00:02:44,060 --> 00:02:46,460 research and writing, although we do other practice based 49 00:02:46,470 --> 00:02:49,210 skills as well. And I came to Georgetown after 50 00:02:49,220 --> 00:02:52,810 teaching as an adjunct for a year and a half a teaching 51 00:02:52,820 --> 00:02:55,610 advanced legal writing. I absolutely adore my job. 52 00:02:55,620 --> 00:02:59,330 I am the first person to tell you that lawyers can love what 53 00:02:59,340 --> 00:03:00,720 they do. Doesn't mean you have to love 54 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,040 everything, right? Reading the same one out legal 55 00:03:03,050 --> 00:03:06,040 memo 60 times is not my favorite activity in the world. 56 00:03:06,090 --> 00:03:08,760 But I love what I do because I like training the next 57 00:03:08,770 --> 00:03:12,140 generation of future lawyers. That's really where I see my fit 58 00:03:12,150 --> 00:03:14,720 in the world. It's not something that you get 59 00:03:14,730 --> 00:03:17,360 told when you're in 4th grade that that's the job you want, 60 00:03:17,370 --> 00:03:19,320 but that's the job I found and I'm really lucky. 61 00:03:19,330 --> 00:03:22,540 Before that I worked at a law firm, Williams and Connolly, 62 00:03:22,550 --> 00:03:25,230 here in Washington, DC, my hometown, where I was doing 63 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,160 mostly international domestic complex litigation. 64 00:03:28,170 --> 00:03:30,140 And I also clerked for two judges. 65 00:03:30,150 --> 00:03:32,770 First just shovel on the District Court here in DC and 66 00:03:32,780 --> 00:03:35,020 then up on the Second Circuit for Judge Katzman. 67 00:03:35,150 --> 00:03:37,050 So that's sort of the professional me. 68 00:03:37,150 --> 00:03:41,180 The personal me is I'm a dad. I have two kids, two daughters, 69 00:03:41,190 --> 00:03:47,020 10 and 7, and I live here in Washington DC and really enjoy 70 00:03:47,030 --> 00:03:50,910 DC sports teams, which right now is a tough place to be off. 71 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,800 That's me in a nutshell. Love that, love that. 72 00:03:52,810 --> 00:03:55,080 How? How hot is it in DC this week? 73 00:03:55,130 --> 00:03:58,750 It is very, very hot. I was at a swim meet for my 74 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,800 daughters last night and I think the temperature gauge hit 99, so 75 00:04:02,810 --> 00:04:05,240 it was quite warm. I don't know what that is in 76 00:04:05,250 --> 00:04:07,100 Celsius for my Celsius listeners, but. 77 00:04:07,110 --> 00:04:09,630 Hot, there you go. Now that's descriptive enough 78 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:11,600 and scary enough. Here in Toronto, we're just 79 00:04:11,610 --> 00:04:13,540 about the same temperature this week, I guess. 80 00:04:13,550 --> 00:04:15,660 So it's been, it's been a hard 1. 81 00:04:15,670 --> 00:04:18,579 And I actually just spoke with somebody else who been in the 82 00:04:18,589 --> 00:04:20,420 podcast who's down there, Arizona. 83 00:04:20,430 --> 00:04:22,580 So that's I'm trying not to complain to your mother. 84 00:04:22,590 --> 00:04:24,100 Right, even warmer. Even warmer. 85 00:04:24,110 --> 00:04:25,570 Just a little wet. A little. 86 00:04:25,580 --> 00:04:28,000 A little a little more humid here in Washington and I'm sure 87 00:04:28,010 --> 00:04:29,810 in Toronto as well. Yeah, that's right. 88 00:04:29,900 --> 00:04:33,150 Well, Jenna to jumping to today's questions, you've had 89 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,610 quite a bit of a diverse journey starting up your career. 90 00:04:36,620 --> 00:04:39,650 As you mentioned, you clerk, you worked at a law firm, now you 91 00:04:39,660 --> 00:04:42,630 work at a university. So you've got a little bit of 92 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,950 everything. And also you get you speak with 93 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,670 a lot of lawyers who who lawyer differently. 94 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,790 So I'd love for you to tell our listeners quickly if you could 95 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,210 about your podcast. Sure. 96 00:04:53,220 --> 00:04:57,410 Then also I I'd love to ask you what first drew you into law and 97 00:04:57,420 --> 00:04:59,990 also maybe what has been keeping you in? 98 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,010 Yeah. So let me try to answer those 99 00:05:02,020 --> 00:05:05,010 two different questions in a sort of consistent way. 100 00:05:05,020 --> 00:05:09,270 You know, what drew me to the practice of law was what I 101 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:14,100 perceived lawyers did every day more than a singular vision 102 00:05:14,110 --> 00:05:16,080 about what kind of lawyer I wanted to be. 103 00:05:16,090 --> 00:05:18,780 I've talked about this on my podcast and other places, but I 104 00:05:18,790 --> 00:05:20,920 grew up. My mother is a rabbi. 105 00:05:20,970 --> 00:05:24,760 And one of the things you learn when your parent is a public 106 00:05:24,890 --> 00:05:28,920 figure, clergy leader is you just talk to people and you get 107 00:05:28,930 --> 00:05:33,520 to watch that person lead people and teach people and make 108 00:05:33,530 --> 00:05:35,700 people's lives better. And I thought that's what I 109 00:05:35,710 --> 00:05:38,740 wanted to do for a long time to sort of stay in the family 110 00:05:38,750 --> 00:05:40,810 business. But ultimately I decided that 111 00:05:40,870 --> 00:05:42,780 that becoming a rabbi was not for me. 112 00:05:42,830 --> 00:05:45,820 But some of those skills that I learned as a very young child, 113 00:05:45,830 --> 00:05:49,000 specifically, I, I can remember it like it was yesterday, but 114 00:05:49,010 --> 00:05:52,360 standing in our social hall Friday nights after we had our 115 00:05:52,370 --> 00:05:55,350 Friday night service and literally he's an 8 year old. 116 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,370 I was wearing a suit and talking to adults about what they did 117 00:05:58,380 --> 00:06:01,030 every day. Little did I know that that 118 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,450 experience, and I don't know whether it was because I was 119 00:06:03,460 --> 00:06:07,210 good at it or I just did it a lot, but that experience would 120 00:06:07,260 --> 00:06:10,930 play into the kind of lawyer and the career I wanted to be. 121 00:06:10,940 --> 00:06:14,810 So I worked backwards to sort of work forwards as to what I 122 00:06:14,820 --> 00:06:17,130 wanted to do. But I went to law school not 123 00:06:17,140 --> 00:06:18,830 knowing what kind of lawyer I was going to be. 124 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:20,810 I really mean that. I thought, you know, I kept 125 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:22,650 telling people I'm going to be an international lawyer. 126 00:06:22,660 --> 00:06:25,070 I didn't know what an international lawyer was, but I 127 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,150 knew that Georgetown had a lot of international law classes. 128 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,580 Unfortunately, once I got there, I basically didn't take any of 129 00:06:30,590 --> 00:06:32,530 them because I found other interest once I got there. 130 00:06:32,540 --> 00:06:34,460 And which brings me to the podcast, right? 131 00:06:34,470 --> 00:06:37,070 So Fast forward almost 10 years into my career. 132 00:06:37,140 --> 00:06:41,200 It's the middle of a global pandemic and I'm spending a lot 133 00:06:41,210 --> 00:06:46,570 of time with my students on Zoom and it consistent complaint, 134 00:06:46,580 --> 00:06:51,850 concern, stress that I heard from them was everyone tells me 135 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,490 that in order to figure out what I want to do as a lawyer, I need 136 00:06:54,500 --> 00:06:57,810 to talk to other lawyers. But how do I do that when I'm 137 00:06:57,820 --> 00:07:01,990 taking law school from my grandparents basement 3000 miles 138 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,680 away as some of my students were? 139 00:07:03,740 --> 00:07:06,050 That's a hard question to answer and it's sort of an 140 00:07:06,060 --> 00:07:08,290 unprecedented question had never been done before. 141 00:07:08,340 --> 00:07:11,590 And at the same time, I was looking for other creative 142 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,050 outlets that were consistent with my job, but different than 143 00:07:14,060 --> 00:07:16,430 sort of the day-to-day of teaching and writing. 144 00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:20,190 And so that's why I decided to start the how I Layer podcast 145 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,400 was to sort of take that skill that I started developing as an 146 00:07:24,410 --> 00:07:26,870 8 year old, talking to people about what they did every day 147 00:07:26,940 --> 00:07:30,320 and to meet the need or the challenge or the problem that my 148 00:07:30,330 --> 00:07:33,280 students were having, which was learning about the profession, 149 00:07:33,330 --> 00:07:35,470 right? We are a profession of passed 150 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,660 down wisdom. But if you don't make those 151 00:07:37,670 --> 00:07:40,260 connections or don't have those opportunities to get the wisdom 152 00:07:40,270 --> 00:07:43,680 passed down, then you, it's very hard to learn how to be a lawyer 153 00:07:43,690 --> 00:07:44,900 or what kind of lawyer you want to be. 154 00:07:44,950 --> 00:07:47,780 And so I figured I could use that interest in talking to 155 00:07:47,790 --> 00:07:50,280 people and hearing about their life and the network that I had 156 00:07:50,290 --> 00:07:54,110 built and sort of the network of the network that I had built to 157 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,300 have some of these conversations for my students. 158 00:07:56,310 --> 00:07:59,880 And I tried, I still to this day, when I draft my questions 159 00:07:59,890 --> 00:08:03,940 or I go to an interview, I always try to think, what would 160 00:08:03,990 --> 00:08:06,870 my, that student in their grandmother's basement 3000 161 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,130 miles away, What would that student want to know? 162 00:08:09,190 --> 00:08:11,420 It's not what I want to know. It's what they want to know. 163 00:08:11,550 --> 00:08:15,780 And 140 something episodes later, I'm still doing it. 164 00:08:15,790 --> 00:08:18,150 It'll be five years next January, which is wild. 165 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,540 You know, the podcast has changed in some ways, and in 166 00:08:20,550 --> 00:08:23,750 some ways it's exactly the same format that I've been doing for 167 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,360 the last 4 1/2 years. And it has been so incredibly 168 00:08:27,370 --> 00:08:31,260 gratifying to have those conversations and have those 169 00:08:31,270 --> 00:08:36,360 conversations sort of listened into by people in ways that I 170 00:08:36,370 --> 00:08:39,470 hope make them better lawyers and help them find better 171 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,039 careers. Well, that's amazing. 172 00:08:41,049 --> 00:08:44,230 I must say that that I'm one of the people that got so inspired 173 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,940 by by what you do there. There's something that I've 174 00:08:46,950 --> 00:08:50,210 noticed on LinkedIn that quite a few lost students across the US 175 00:08:50,220 --> 00:08:53,350 were sharing their networking goals, and it seemed like 176 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:58,310 something somewhat popular was the the notion of meeting 100 177 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,450 lawyers over the three years of their JD. 178 00:09:00,460 --> 00:09:01,490 Program. I love it. 179 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,890 Yeah, so, so I started my LM here in Toronto hearing people 180 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,870 talk about that. The kind of, it was an 181 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,210 interesting moment here too, because the faculty of law was 182 00:09:12,220 --> 00:09:15,370 turning 75 years. I had a one year long program. 183 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,550 I felt like 100 was too much and I didn't have the three years 184 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:22,390 and, and all of that. But then I, I really locked in 185 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,250 to meet with 75 lawyers over that period. 186 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:27,730 And it's been, it's been an incredible opportunity. 187 00:09:27,740 --> 00:09:32,790 And I notice how after having, you know, those maybe 31st 188 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,650 conversations, even though a lot of the questions I had were 189 00:09:35,660 --> 00:09:38,890 somewhat consistent because of the outcomes I was expecting, 190 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,700 but also felt like I, I kind of learned what questions I needed 191 00:09:42,710 --> 00:09:46,040 to ask as well as I love how you said something about, you know, 192 00:09:46,050 --> 00:09:48,790 once you, once you start law school and all of that, maybe 193 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,460 you don't have that clarity, but it's really after you start 194 00:09:52,470 --> 00:09:55,480 having those conversations that you know what you ask next. 195 00:09:55,530 --> 00:09:59,370 So I might present all all so interesting to see and I'd love 196 00:09:59,380 --> 00:10:03,230 to hear about, you know how after he started the podcast and 197 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,570 now, you know, over 140 episodes in. 198 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,890 How has this project also shaped a little bit of your views on 199 00:10:08,950 --> 00:10:12,080 legal careers on the the row of mentorship? 200 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,590 Because I believe that these are both topics that come up over 201 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:17,010 and over and. Over a lot. 202 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,870 A lot, yeah. And I couldn't agree more. 203 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,110 And I think that the meeting with 75 lawyers is such an such 204 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,170 an awesome way of thinking about it, right. 205 00:10:24,180 --> 00:10:31,100 Our legal education is often cast as a an experience of 206 00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:33,380 learning how to think like a lawyer. 207 00:10:34,140 --> 00:10:37,810 And I think only by talking to enough lawyers can you sort of 208 00:10:37,820 --> 00:10:42,550 triangulate all the other skills besides thinking plus thinking. 209 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:47,750 But I think a big piece of it is understanding what is possible 210 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,620 and how you can live your life as a lawyer. 211 00:10:50,630 --> 00:10:52,470 And I'm sure that's true for other professions. 212 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,310 Obviously, I don't have quite the background in others, but I 213 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,150 think there's something unique about the practice of law that 214 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,330 really lends itself to learning by talking. 215 00:11:00,340 --> 00:11:02,790 And so in some ways, I think we're kindred spirits in that 216 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,170 regard. And if you're listening and you 217 00:11:04,180 --> 00:11:06,470 think, well, I can't start a podcast, I can't do this. 218 00:11:06,540 --> 00:11:11,050 You know what you can do? Find one lawyer who you find on 219 00:11:11,140 --> 00:11:15,090 the web or LinkedIn who looks interesting and asked to talk to 220 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:18,690 them for 15 minutes. I'm not talking even on Zoom. 221 00:11:18,740 --> 00:11:21,690 Don't try to find the coolest lawyer in the world right there. 222 00:11:21,780 --> 00:11:25,070 Don't try to find the managing partner of the biggest firm in 223 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,830 the world because it's gonna be a lot harder. 224 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,210 Find someone who's doing something who's a couple years 225 00:11:29,220 --> 00:11:31,080 ahead of you and learn from them. 226 00:11:31,090 --> 00:11:33,430 So I couldn't agree more. But you get back to your 227 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,610 question about sort of about the project and sort of how it's 228 00:11:36,620 --> 00:11:38,290 changed where I've learned all of those pieces. 229 00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:42,680 I mean, I think that in some ways the project is exactly the 230 00:11:42,690 --> 00:11:45,010 same as it was 4 1/2 years ago, right? 231 00:11:45,020 --> 00:11:46,510 And we live in a slightly different world. 232 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,450 It's a lot harder to get people to schedule on Zoom than it was 233 00:11:49,460 --> 00:11:50,910 when we were all stuck in our houses. 234 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,360 But ultimately, it's about sharing stories. 235 00:11:53,370 --> 00:11:56,090 And when you're a story facilitator, which is how I see 236 00:11:56,100 --> 00:11:59,250 myself on the other side of the microphone, it's trying to find 237 00:11:59,260 --> 00:12:02,530 what stories to share. And so ultimately, I feel like 238 00:12:02,540 --> 00:12:05,640 that has stayed the same. What has changed and what is 239 00:12:05,650 --> 00:12:07,880 exciting about the legal profession is the legal 240 00:12:07,890 --> 00:12:11,080 profession has changed a lot in the 4 1/2 years I've been doing 241 00:12:11,090 --> 00:12:12,380 this. So some things are the same, 242 00:12:12,390 --> 00:12:15,220 like you said, the power and importance of mentorship, the 243 00:12:15,230 --> 00:12:17,900 number of people from the number of different practice areas who 244 00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:21,900 have said to me, it's because someone did something for me. 245 00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:24,560 That's why I am where I am today. 246 00:12:24,890 --> 00:12:28,070 It's because someone did something for me, which I hope 247 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:32,680 inspires other people to be that someone to somebody else. 248 00:12:32,750 --> 00:12:35,120 That hasn't changed. But at the same time, our 249 00:12:35,130 --> 00:12:38,020 profession is incredibly responsive to the world we face. 250 00:12:38,930 --> 00:12:41,320 You know, you could pick any number of examples. 251 00:12:41,830 --> 00:12:46,080 The big issue when I was talking to people in 2021 was remote 252 00:12:46,090 --> 00:12:50,100 work, COVID, how we were gonna succeed as a society. 253 00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:52,900 We had great social unrest here in the United States at that 254 00:12:52,910 --> 00:12:55,300 time as well. Today, we're not talking about 255 00:12:55,310 --> 00:12:57,780 remote work quite so much. And we're talking about how is 256 00:12:57,790 --> 00:12:59,810 generative AI going to change the practice of law? 257 00:12:59,820 --> 00:13:02,750 And we're talking about how are we going to respond, at least 258 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,540 here in the States, to big changes and how our federal 259 00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:08,480 government works. So in a lot of ways, the legal 260 00:13:08,490 --> 00:13:12,800 profession is a mirror to the society in which we live. 261 00:13:12,810 --> 00:13:16,300 And so as society changes, we as lawyers have to be responsive to 262 00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:19,000 that change. And so that's the piece that, 263 00:13:19,050 --> 00:13:21,440 you know, I like to think of all my episodes as Evergreen, but I 264 00:13:21,450 --> 00:13:24,690 imagine if I go back and listen to some of the ones from 2021, 265 00:13:24,820 --> 00:13:28,710 they will both feel, uh, like they could have happened 266 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,280 yesterday and they will feel at the same time like they're 267 00:13:31,290 --> 00:13:33,930 missing the sort of the keynote of the moment. 268 00:13:33,940 --> 00:13:35,570 I don't know if that answers your question, but that's sort 269 00:13:35,580 --> 00:13:37,290 of what I've been. Thinking, no, I love that you 270 00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:40,680 had somebody do a very nice comments recently. 271 00:13:40,730 --> 00:13:43,720 So one of the previous guests, central shine, she mentioned 272 00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:47,200 something that we live in a time with extreme polarization in so 273 00:13:47,210 --> 00:13:49,820 many different things. And, and in a way, as a, as a 274 00:13:49,830 --> 00:13:54,180 legal community and legal society, we have to find ways to 275 00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:58,320 continue moving on with civility, with unity and, and 276 00:13:58,330 --> 00:14:00,980 all of that. And I just find that that the 277 00:14:00,990 --> 00:14:04,680 podcast and telling stories is a really good way to do it. 278 00:14:04,770 --> 00:14:09,320 There was a, a quote and I, I would misquote who it is that 279 00:14:09,330 --> 00:14:12,090 said it, but that's says something along the lines that 280 00:14:12,100 --> 00:14:15,130 it, it's very hard to hate somebody whose story, you know, 281 00:14:15,220 --> 00:14:18,510 and I just really, you know, in a time where, you know, there's 282 00:14:18,740 --> 00:14:21,990 some some strong sentiments about all kinds of things. 283 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,040 I just find it amazing to get the chance to, to sit down and 284 00:14:25,050 --> 00:14:28,790 talk to people and hear what they have to say, because I'm a 285 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,550 true believer that everybody got got something good to you to 286 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,890 contribute to the world. And besides all that you've done 287 00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:38,490 and that you do, you've you've just came up with a new awesome 288 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:42,010 project this summer, Joanna. So your newsletter stand out 289 00:14:42,020 --> 00:14:46,110 summer associate has been so helpful as as a summer student 290 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,290 myself. And it's interesting because I 291 00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:51,510 don't know that you expected it to be, you know, used in other 292 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,530 countries use charcoal for working in the government. 293 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,940 So that's, that's my situation here in Canada, you know, so 294 00:14:57,950 --> 00:15:00,920 many like small jams. It's a, it's a great way to 295 00:15:00,930 --> 00:15:03,980 start my days. I'd love to hear, you know, tell 296 00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:06,700 me how that started. What was that motivated you to 297 00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:07,820 start that? Sure. 298 00:15:07,830 --> 00:15:10,200 You know, I, I, as I said in podcasting for a couple of 299 00:15:10,210 --> 00:15:13,980 years, but my primary writing is, is very academic, right? 300 00:15:14,190 --> 00:15:17,250 I study sort of legal ethics, legal profession, legal 301 00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:19,340 communication and right in those spaces as well. 302 00:15:19,390 --> 00:15:23,230 But I've also sort of the last basically 6 or so years have 303 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,080 written pretty extensively on social media. 304 00:15:25,090 --> 00:15:29,240 And there my primary audience again, is junior lawyers, law 305 00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:32,090 students, people entering our profession and to a somewhat 306 00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:34,240 lesser degree, people already in our profession. 307 00:15:34,330 --> 00:15:37,040 And that's my North Star. That's my professional or star 308 00:15:37,050 --> 00:15:38,860 is to try to provide value to those folks. 309 00:15:38,930 --> 00:15:41,590 Both value that I can provide, but also the value from others. 310 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,080 The big difference between that and the podcast is I'm the 311 00:15:44,090 --> 00:15:46,390 story. I'm the, I'm the person telling 312 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,840 the story as opposed to the person facilitating someone 313 00:15:48,850 --> 00:15:51,750 else's story being told. And you know, I've been playing 314 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,070 with the idea of you got to meet the moment, right? 315 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,010 And the moment right now. We had podcast, we had the 316 00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:57,970 moment of podcast with the movement of social media. 317 00:15:57,980 --> 00:16:00,070 And I think right now we're in this moment of newsletter. 318 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:01,930 So I really wanted to just try it frankly. 319 00:16:01,940 --> 00:16:05,970 And something I've done the past few summers is host fairly 320 00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:09,330 frequently with the audience specifically being folks in 321 00:16:09,340 --> 00:16:12,630 their first or second legal job, usually during the summer for a 322 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,810 short period of time. And so I thought, what if I sort 323 00:16:14,820 --> 00:16:17,530 of compiled that and created a little bit of more regular 324 00:16:17,540 --> 00:16:19,590 cadence. I'm I'm old enough to remember 325 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,290 when I was in law school and we were still in the heyday of 326 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:24,600 blogs. I had a blog for a very short 327 00:16:24,610 --> 00:16:27,080 period of time not about law, free law school. 328 00:16:27,090 --> 00:16:31,140 And I sort of missed that, that writing and that sort of genre. 329 00:16:31,150 --> 00:16:34,540 So it's slightly longer form than social media, but not quite 330 00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:37,360 academic articles. And so I figured this is a good 331 00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:39,420 audience to do it for. I'll do it for free. 332 00:16:39,490 --> 00:16:42,420 It's a good time for me as an academic because I'm not 333 00:16:42,430 --> 00:16:43,990 teaching classes in the summer. I'm just writing. 334 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,540 So this is a nice sort of off speed activity and I figured at 335 00:16:47,550 --> 00:16:51,120 the end I'd have a handful of things to share and maybe a few 336 00:16:51,130 --> 00:16:53,350 people would read it off. I think it's been pretty 337 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:54,870 successful. I don't know, I will tell you 338 00:16:54,940 --> 00:16:58,070 it's a lot harder than podcasting or social media to 339 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,490 get feedback. It's not you don't, you know, 340 00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:02,370 you don't get quite the number of likes. 341 00:17:02,460 --> 00:17:04,950 Fewer people write in, you know, you're doing it in the written 342 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:06,490 word is instead of the spoken word. 343 00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:09,609 So I don't think I have quite the same sense of its impact, 344 00:17:09,619 --> 00:17:11,839 which it means it's it's really great to hear that people are 345 00:17:11,849 --> 00:17:13,630 reading it. And and I do get some feedback 346 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,460 to that effect. I thought I would write once or 347 00:17:15,470 --> 00:17:17,349 twice a week. Then the first two weeks I wrote 348 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,470 every day, at least every weekday, excluding holidays. 349 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,750 And then I said, OK, so I guess I'm in this for that. 350 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,619 So basically my plan now we're in the middle of June when we're 351 00:17:25,630 --> 00:17:27,109 recording, end of June when we're recording. 352 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,210 My plan is to sort of go till sometime in July, probably mid 353 00:17:30,220 --> 00:17:31,870 to late July. At that point, if I haven't 354 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,490 conveyed the wisdom, it might be a little bit late and you'll 355 00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:37,460 have to wait till next summer. I've also been really, really 356 00:17:37,470 --> 00:17:39,750 excited and this is the piece that if I do this again next 357 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:41,660 summer, I'd really want to expand. 358 00:17:41,670 --> 00:17:45,200 If I've had a bunch of people offered to write guest posts and 359 00:17:45,260 --> 00:17:47,140 that has been incredibly valuable. 360 00:17:47,150 --> 00:17:49,420 I frankly don't know. I haven't done any focus groups 361 00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:53,700 on the readers to value to them, but I think having having my 362 00:17:53,710 --> 00:17:58,320 voice with other voices in the same sort of general approach 363 00:17:58,330 --> 00:18:01,220 feel package has been incredibly valuable. 364 00:18:01,230 --> 00:18:04,250 And I would hope to expand that. So yeah, if you or anybody else 365 00:18:04,260 --> 00:18:05,860 is reading it, if you're not, you can find it. 366 00:18:05,870 --> 00:18:07,510 It's free. Stand out summer associate, 367 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,320 stand out summer associate.substack.com. 368 00:18:10,330 --> 00:18:12,330 I think I got that right. And if you're hearing this and 369 00:18:12,340 --> 00:18:14,640 you'd like to write something, let me know and I'm happy to 370 00:18:14,650 --> 00:18:16,810 publish it. So that's the the newsletter. 371 00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:19,200 Amazing. Well, you're talking about, you 372 00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:21,510 know, different skills. You spoke about even 373 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,890 communication in a way. So let me ask you, what are some 374 00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:29,300 small habits that new lawyers or you know, students who are 375 00:18:29,310 --> 00:18:33,300 transitioning into the workforce that they can do to get noticed 376 00:18:33,310 --> 00:18:35,410 in a good way? What if some of your thoughts on 377 00:18:35,420 --> 00:18:37,270 that? Great question love that 378 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,420 question question I try to ask ask everyone and it's one of 379 00:18:40,430 --> 00:18:42,990 those questions if you're asking people, it's a great 1 you know, 380 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,150 I'll I'll I'll pick two of many. I think the first one is to 381 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,840 always know the purpose and audience for whatever you're 382 00:18:50,850 --> 00:18:53,510 doing now this is the legal writing professor coming out in 383 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,220 me. You know, if any of my students 384 00:18:55,230 --> 00:18:58,310 are listening, you're probably tired of me hearing me say this. 385 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,780 But ultimately, I think all activities, communications, 386 00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:07,300 projects, the difference between the opportunity for success and 387 00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:10,260 absolute failure is not knowing what is the purpose and who is 388 00:19:10,270 --> 00:19:12,560 the audience. If you know those two things, 389 00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:16,070 you have, you have checked off at least some of the necessary 390 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,180 steps to success. So what do I mean by that? 391 00:19:18,190 --> 00:19:19,650 Let's make this a little more concrete. 392 00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:22,600 If a partner gives you an assignment on your first day to 393 00:19:22,610 --> 00:19:26,060 write a memo about some statute that has recently changed, 394 00:19:26,110 --> 00:19:28,760 right? If you don't know who's going to 395 00:19:28,770 --> 00:19:32,400 read that memo, you probably are not going to write the memo they 396 00:19:32,410 --> 00:19:34,450 expect. Is that is the only person who's 397 00:19:34,460 --> 00:19:36,660 going to read that the partner who already knows the history of 398 00:19:36,670 --> 00:19:38,570 the statute? Is this something that the 399 00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:41,870 partner is planning to send to their client who doesn't happen 400 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,830 to be a lawyer? Is this something that they're 401 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,350 going to post on the website? Very general audience. 402 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,620 What is the purpose of the document Is the purpose of the 403 00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:50,570 document to just explain what has happened? 404 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,570 Is the purpose of the document to make a case for something 405 00:19:53,580 --> 00:19:55,410 new. If you don't know the answers to 406 00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:58,870 those questions and it sounds so simple, but I'm telling you, I 407 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,490 hear this from students all the time when they come back from 408 00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:04,210 their first summer. That's that's the the the 409 00:20:04,220 --> 00:20:07,180 benefit that I get is I keep getting older, but my students 410 00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:10,570 stay the same age and they all come back the second summer and 411 00:20:10,580 --> 00:20:13,360 consistently they tell me thank you for reminding sheet purpose 412 00:20:13,370 --> 00:20:16,880 and audience because if I didn't ask that question, I would have 413 00:20:16,890 --> 00:20:18,770 written the wrong document and you can't succeed. 414 00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:20,610 So that's one purpose and audience and I think that's 415 00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:22,200 true. Frankly, I think that's true in 416 00:20:22,210 --> 00:20:25,600 almost every facet of life, but definitely is a junior lawyer. 417 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:31,080 And then the second is to to. Really embrace the process. 418 00:20:31,130 --> 00:20:35,500 And what I mean by that is I think maybe this is because we 419 00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:38,970 like all watch TV shows with lawyers in them that are not 420 00:20:38,980 --> 00:20:42,590 real, that we think you graduate law school and you're like, I am 421 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,210 ready to stand up in court and try a case and you're not. 422 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:51,520 Or by contrast, you're so you're so much fear or some of you talk 423 00:20:51,530 --> 00:20:55,510 about imposter syndrome that we feel like we could never 424 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,590 possibly talk to a client, right. 425 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,870 So the two extremes, either I'm ready to be the Chief Justice, 426 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,160 Supreme Court, or I'm not even ready to like call my assistant 427 00:21:05,170 --> 00:21:07,350 to tell her that we need to schedule a meeting. 428 00:21:07,420 --> 00:21:10,490 Both of those emotions sometimes come into new lawyers. 429 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,490 And I think the response to that of those emotions is to just 430 00:21:13,660 --> 00:21:17,030 recognize that it's a process and it's step by step and you're 431 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,960 going to grow, but it takes time. 432 00:21:19,010 --> 00:21:22,740 Being process oriented means being patient, but it also means 433 00:21:22,790 --> 00:21:25,900 not sitting back and being lackadaisical and letting things 434 00:21:25,910 --> 00:21:27,860 happen, right? If you're not getting 435 00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:31,060 experiences, it's either because you're not ready for them, in 436 00:21:31,070 --> 00:21:33,970 which case, wait, you'll get there, or it's because you're 437 00:21:33,980 --> 00:21:36,440 not seeking those experiences out and that's on you. 438 00:21:36,550 --> 00:21:39,860 So embrace the process and see everything as a stepping stone. 439 00:21:39,870 --> 00:21:44,260 Something as simple as putting together signature pages for a 440 00:21:44,270 --> 00:21:49,260 transaction, formatting a letter that goes to clients, building a 441 00:21:49,270 --> 00:21:53,480 timeline of a set of facts. Those are not the reasons you 442 00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:56,520 went to law school, nor did law school teach you how to do those 443 00:21:56,530 --> 00:22:00,560 things, but they are part of the process of building a set of 444 00:22:00,570 --> 00:22:03,930 skills that are almost impossible to sort of put on a 445 00:22:03,940 --> 00:22:06,650 checklist of what it means to be a lawyer in your area of 446 00:22:06,660 --> 00:22:08,390 practice. So I got others but those are 447 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,030 the two that that jump to. Mind fantastic no and I think 448 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,270 those really are are so helpful and especially I like them 449 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,830 because I don't think many people spoke about them 450 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,370 specifically here so I I love that you brought those up and 451 00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:23,750 you know our conversation is being so good but no times 452 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,300 flying by for wrapping up today's episode I wanted to ask 453 00:22:27,310 --> 00:22:30,430 you another question also Nets and so you know advice for 454 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,190 juniors and students. So I feel like a lot of us feel 455 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,850 some some sort of pressure about our path about obituary or 456 00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:41,610 you're getting into especially for not having everything 457 00:22:41,620 --> 00:22:43,530 figured out. You know it, you know, I don't 458 00:22:43,540 --> 00:22:45,850 know if I want to be a transactional lawyer for the 459 00:22:45,860 --> 00:22:48,210 rest of my life. I don't know if I just want to 460 00:22:48,220 --> 00:22:50,270 litigate. I don't know if I want to go in 461 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,230 house or all the million options there are. 462 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,470 So what kind of advice would you give to people who are 463 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:57,930 struggling with that kind of thought? 464 00:22:57,940 --> 00:23:00,770 Yeah, one of the awesome parts, and I think this is true 465 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,970 worldwide, but one of the awesome parts about being a 466 00:23:02,980 --> 00:23:07,410 lawyer is that you can do almost anything if you're trained as a 467 00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:09,770 lawyer. But one of the great challenges 468 00:23:09,780 --> 00:23:13,090 of being trained as a lawyer is that you can do almost anything. 469 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,250 And as a result, by definition, right, you don't know where 470 00:23:17,260 --> 00:23:19,330 you're going. And that's OK. 471 00:23:19,340 --> 00:23:23,120 And in fact, that's expected. You know, I, I've written pretty 472 00:23:23,130 --> 00:23:25,740 extensively and, and talk about this a lot. 473 00:23:25,790 --> 00:23:28,520 You know, there's this famous quote from Steve Jobs that 474 00:23:28,530 --> 00:23:30,900 careers only make sense looking backwards. 475 00:23:30,970 --> 00:23:32,740 I'm butchering the quote, but it's basically like 476 00:23:32,750 --> 00:23:35,310 constellations only makes sense when you figure out what you're 477 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,880 drawing and you find the star. Ultimately, I think lawyers 478 00:23:38,890 --> 00:23:41,280 careers and all careers, but truly careers for lawyers, I 479 00:23:41,290 --> 00:23:44,140 feel like really, really hit this spot. 480 00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:46,620 They only make sense looking backwards. 481 00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:48,760 And so I think we talked about LinkedIn a little bit earlier, 482 00:23:48,770 --> 00:23:52,200 like I think LinkedIn, the LinkedIn unification of people's 483 00:23:52,210 --> 00:23:54,360 careers. And I love LinkedIn for this 484 00:23:54,370 --> 00:23:56,980 purpose that you can see how people have had lots of 485 00:23:56,990 --> 00:24:00,190 different careers. But the terrible part about it, 486 00:24:00,350 --> 00:24:03,330 the worst part about it is that when you look at someone's 487 00:24:03,340 --> 00:24:06,440 LinkedIn profile, it looks like it was all planned from the 488 00:24:06,450 --> 00:24:08,430 outset, right? I'm going to do this two years, 489 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,970 then I'm going to do this for two years with a one month gap 490 00:24:10,980 --> 00:24:12,550 and then I'm going to do this and I'm do this. 491 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,040 And that's not how it happened. That's why if you talk to real 492 00:24:16,050 --> 00:24:19,460 people who have gone through real careers, oftentimes what's 493 00:24:19,470 --> 00:24:23,380 not on LinkedIn is the job that they didn't get. 494 00:24:23,430 --> 00:24:27,020 It's the personal challenge that made them change cities. 495 00:24:27,090 --> 00:24:31,200 It's the fact that they thought they got the job of their dreams 496 00:24:31,210 --> 00:24:33,460 and had the boss of their nightmares. 497 00:24:33,530 --> 00:24:37,300 And so they had to leave or an election happened, or a coup 498 00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:40,860 happened, or the world changed fundamentally around them. 499 00:24:40,930 --> 00:24:43,980 You can't plan for those things. They careers only make sense 500 00:24:43,990 --> 00:24:46,280 going backwards. And so I say that not to say 501 00:24:46,290 --> 00:24:49,850 that you don't have any control, but to say that you don't have 502 00:24:49,860 --> 00:24:52,180 any control of the end. You only have control of what's 503 00:24:52,190 --> 00:24:55,090 next. And so my recommendation is just 504 00:24:55,140 --> 00:24:58,610 keep building, keep trying things, keep responding to the 505 00:24:58,620 --> 00:25:00,410 moment. You know, sometimes students 506 00:25:00,420 --> 00:25:02,090 come in their first day of law school and they come in and 507 00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:05,050 they're like, I know I want to work for this judge on this day. 508 00:25:05,060 --> 00:25:07,890 And I look at them and I say, that's great, but what if that 509 00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:10,050 judge isn't hiring your year, right? 510 00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:14,620 That's no fault of yours, but it means that you're one thing that 511 00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:18,550 you're like goal is actually impossible to meet. 512 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,050 And so instead look at the options before you in that 513 00:25:22,060 --> 00:25:25,060 moment and see what's next. And then it will make sense 514 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:27,710 looking backwards. And so I hope that gives people 515 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,550 not not sort of licensed to do nothing and not fear that they 516 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,400 can never get where they want to go, but just comfort that when 517 00:25:36,410 --> 00:25:40,280 you look backwards, all those moves will fit together in a way 518 00:25:40,290 --> 00:25:42,820 that they didn't from the front end, if that makes sense. 519 00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:46,200 You it does 100%. Thank you so much, John. 520 00:25:46,210 --> 00:25:49,040 I know much appreciated all of the advice he shared. 521 00:25:49,050 --> 00:25:51,060 He was like amazing. You learn a little more about 522 00:25:51,070 --> 00:25:54,460 your story as well. You always get you listen and 523 00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:58,490 understand a little more about what your guests are and do, but 524 00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:01,120 she's the most you also get you to know a little more about your 525 00:26:01,130 --> 00:26:02,940 stories. Thank you so much once again for 526 00:26:02,950 --> 00:26:06,150 joining in the podcast, and thank you all for taking the 527 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,020 time to listen into today's episode. 528 00:26:08,030 --> 00:26:09,940 Absolutely. Thank you for having me and 529 00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:13,220 everybody keep listening to all of these interviews because I 530 00:26:13,230 --> 00:26:16,290 really do think you're carving out a niche that we really need 531 00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:18,300 in our profession. And so I'm super grateful for 532 00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:20,790 that. Thanks for listening. 533 00:26:20,870 --> 00:26:22,590 And we'll see you on the next episode. 534 00:26:22,650 --> 00:26:25,130 This episode was sponsored by Contender. 535 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,610 Checked out add contenderllc.com.