1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:45,650 is for you. Today I'm hosting Ferrin Bogash. 11 00:00:45,700 --> 00:00:49,350 She's a construction and infrastructure lawyer, mediator, 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,890 and the founder of Construct Legal Canada. 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,110 Before starting, her firm's parents spent more than a decade 14 00:00:55,180 --> 00:00:58,080 at Biglaw, where she became a partner and built a strong 15 00:00:58,090 --> 00:01:00,270 litigation practice in construction law. 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,970 She later launched Construct Legal Canada with the goal of 17 00:01:03,980 --> 00:01:06,250 rethinking how law firms. Operate with a. 18 00:01:06,260 --> 00:01:10,070 Focus on client outcomes, team culture, and sustainable legal 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,730 practice. She is also active in mentoring 20 00:01:12,740 --> 00:01:15,650 young lawyers and supporting better paths for women in the 21 00:01:15,660 --> 00:01:17,770 profession. Thank you so much for being here 22 00:01:17,780 --> 00:01:19,870 today, Fan. Thank you so much for having me, 23 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,390 I'm so excited about this. Thank you so much. 24 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,290 And you start off our podcast today. 25 00:01:24,300 --> 00:01:27,410 I'd love for you to introduce yourself, your listeners and 26 00:01:27,420 --> 00:01:31,450 tell us a little bit about your story, your career career and 27 00:01:31,460 --> 00:01:33,210 about the work that you do nowadays. 28 00:01:33,220 --> 00:01:36,610 So a little bit about me, I'll start at the beginning. 29 00:01:36,620 --> 00:01:41,010 I'm from Alberta and I grew up there when Wayne Gretzky was, 30 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,910 you know, winning all the Stanley Cups in one of the 31 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,530 Oilers lived on my street. And I used to have to take notes 32 00:01:47,540 --> 00:01:52,270 in kindergarten from kids in my class and leave them in Charlie 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,760 Huddy, who was another Oilers mailbox for them to him to pass 34 00:01:55,770 --> 00:01:57,860 to Wayne Gretzky. I don't know if the the notes 35 00:01:57,870 --> 00:02:01,170 ever like made it all the way there, but that's kind of my 36 00:02:01,180 --> 00:02:03,810 beginning, a little bit of a beginning story, but I ended up 37 00:02:03,820 --> 00:02:06,690 in in Toronto. I have an economics degree. 38 00:02:06,700 --> 00:02:08,610 I went to Dalhousie for law school. 39 00:02:08,620 --> 00:02:10,940 I thought it was going to be corporate business lawyer, but 40 00:02:10,949 --> 00:02:15,400 then all my hobbies in law were litigation and I didn't really 41 00:02:15,410 --> 00:02:17,420 think about it. I was doing advocacy for 42 00:02:17,430 --> 00:02:20,920 students who had been charged with academic misconduct. 43 00:02:20,990 --> 00:02:25,320 I was mooting and suddenly all these litigation firms were 44 00:02:25,330 --> 00:02:28,020 offering me jobs and I was like, I guess I'm a litigator. 45 00:02:28,030 --> 00:02:31,440 So I worked in a small litigation firm for a few years. 46 00:02:31,510 --> 00:02:35,140 Then I went to a bigger firm, which we'll talk about I'm sure, 47 00:02:35,150 --> 00:02:38,420 and then started my own firm. I have 3 kids. 48 00:02:38,430 --> 00:02:41,940 I spend a lot of my time right now in hockey arenas. 49 00:02:42,310 --> 00:02:46,120 It's almost spring, so I'm really looking forward to being 50 00:02:46,130 --> 00:02:49,700 outside and not spending so much time watching hockey, even 51 00:02:49,710 --> 00:02:51,940 though I love them and I love what they do. 52 00:02:52,010 --> 00:02:55,300 About what they do, construction and infrastructure law, which I 53 00:02:55,310 --> 00:02:58,260 never thought I would practice. I didn't even know it was a 54 00:02:58,270 --> 00:03:02,080 thing when I started in law. And I just got a file. 55 00:03:02,090 --> 00:03:04,600 I did one at the small firm and then when I went to the big 56 00:03:04,610 --> 00:03:07,320 firm, I saw construction layer. I'm like, oh, I've done this 57 00:03:07,330 --> 00:03:09,740 before, I can help. They're like, great, we'd love 58 00:03:09,750 --> 00:03:12,160 people who know what we're doing, which I didn't. 59 00:03:12,290 --> 00:03:15,200 And I started doing more and more construction work and less 60 00:03:15,210 --> 00:03:16,640 and less general litigation work. 61 00:03:16,650 --> 00:03:18,560 And then I became a construction lawyer. 62 00:03:18,610 --> 00:03:21,120 And it is a fantastic area to practice. 63 00:03:21,130 --> 00:03:24,490 Like you look around wherever you are, everything has to be 64 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:27,800 built, a school, a highway and office space, your home. 65 00:03:27,870 --> 00:03:31,420 And there's always a story about it being built, how it was 66 00:03:31,430 --> 00:03:34,230 built, why it was built. And we work on those projects 67 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,330 every single day. You can do like the tendering or 68 00:03:37,340 --> 00:03:41,190 procurement process, the contract, there's a problem. 69 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,990 If there's a change, we see how it all comes together. 70 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,930 And then you can walk by and like see something tangible and 71 00:03:47,940 --> 00:03:50,670 be like, I worked on that. I didn't actually build it, but 72 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,130 I know how parts of it were built and I know what happened. 73 00:03:53,140 --> 00:03:57,050 So it is a really fantastic and growing area of law. 74 00:03:57,060 --> 00:03:59,860 Very, very interesting and useful. 75 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,300 I, I'd love to hear a little more about the area itself. 76 00:04:03,310 --> 00:04:05,960 You know, can you walk us through a little bit of what the 77 00:04:05,970 --> 00:04:09,310 date should date practice could look like in construction and 78 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,990 infrastructure law? And for someone who's not very 79 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,750 familiar with the field, you, you did mention that there's a 80 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,769 lot of litigation involved. But I'm, I'm curious, is it, is 81 00:04:17,779 --> 00:04:21,519 it always mainly litigation? Is it mainly solicitor work, a 82 00:04:21,529 --> 00:04:23,310 mix of both? What does that look like? 83 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,180 That's a great question. So there are construction 84 00:04:26,190 --> 00:04:29,880 lawyers who only do solicitor work and there are some lawyers 85 00:04:29,890 --> 00:04:33,720 that only do litigation, and then there are those that do 86 00:04:33,730 --> 00:04:35,760 both. So I've seen people be very 87 00:04:35,770 --> 00:04:38,880 successful if they're negotiating very complicated 88 00:04:38,930 --> 00:04:43,220 public procurement projects and the contracts are thousands of 89 00:04:43,230 --> 00:04:45,730 pages with thousands of pages of appendices. 90 00:04:45,740 --> 00:04:48,650 Some people focus on that and that is what they do and they're 91 00:04:48,660 --> 00:04:50,790 fantastic at it. There are those that only 92 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,520 litigate. I was initially A litigator who 93 00:04:53,530 --> 00:04:56,530 did a little bit of contracts. I did it sometimes if a client 94 00:04:56,540 --> 00:05:00,200 asked me, I could do it, but I really stuck to litigation. 95 00:05:00,210 --> 00:05:03,830 But now I do both and my team does both. 96 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:07,070 And I think we're better lawyers because of the area that we 97 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,830 practice, that we do it so we can draft that tender document 98 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:15,530 and contracts to avoid the problems we see in litigation. 99 00:05:15,540 --> 00:05:18,930 And then we can look for terms that we've used when drafting 100 00:05:18,940 --> 00:05:22,010 contracts, help litigate. And sometimes it's so beautiful 101 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:24,650 when it comes together or sometimes it's so miserable when 102 00:05:24,660 --> 00:05:27,880 you're like, I wish this contract had a term or I wish, 103 00:05:27,890 --> 00:05:30,320 you know, they had litigated this differently if you looked 104 00:05:30,330 --> 00:05:32,670 at the section of the contract. But sometimes it comes together 105 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,090 and it's wonderful. And I think our team is becoming 106 00:05:35,100 --> 00:05:38,670 more well-rounded by doing both. But again, there are people who 107 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,230 do each and are fantastic as well. 108 00:05:41,340 --> 00:05:44,550 You spent more than a decade in big law before starting your own 109 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,880 firm. So if I may ask you, can you 110 00:05:46,890 --> 00:05:51,000 tell us a little more about what pushed you, you know, to move 111 00:05:51,010 --> 00:05:54,740 from partnership in a big law firm to building something new? 112 00:05:54,810 --> 00:05:59,840 So I came from from a very small firm of five lawyers to Big Lot. 113 00:05:59,850 --> 00:06:04,180 And it was the biggest culture shock to me in so many ways, 114 00:06:04,190 --> 00:06:06,820 like working with different people, with different 115 00:06:06,830 --> 00:06:09,140 standards, different areas of law. 116 00:06:09,210 --> 00:06:11,340 And I got so much wonderful experience. 117 00:06:11,350 --> 00:06:15,220 I worked with dozens of lawyers, some I copied, some I wanted to 118 00:06:15,230 --> 00:06:18,180 do the complete opposite of everything they ever did. 119 00:06:18,290 --> 00:06:22,100 And along the way I met a lot of great people who have become 120 00:06:22,110 --> 00:06:25,160 clients, who've become referral sources and friends. 121 00:06:25,230 --> 00:06:29,360 But I wasn't always the best rule follower. 122 00:06:29,460 --> 00:06:33,510 I wanted to make changes and I wanted to do things differently. 123 00:06:33,580 --> 00:06:37,690 And that isn't always easy in a big firm because there's a lot 124 00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:40,810 of stakeholders who have to be involved in making decisions and 125 00:06:40,820 --> 00:06:44,230 the impact of the decisions impacts so many different people 126 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,810 in different ways. So there was a time where I 127 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,090 realized that I could either accept the infrastructure or 128 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:54,470 accept that I had to leave the big firm. 129 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,530 And it was a hard decision. I'd worked really hard to be an 130 00:06:57,540 --> 00:07:00,270 equity partner, all I wanted to get. 131 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:02,950 But then when I got there, I went, I don't know if this is 132 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:04,450 for me. And like, just to give an 133 00:07:04,460 --> 00:07:08,470 example, I think a breaking point was we had this fantastic 134 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,790 associate. They were terrific and there was 135 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,530 an issue and they needed a new assistant and I had to try. 136 00:07:13,540 --> 00:07:15,460 I was like, this person needs a good assistant. 137 00:07:15,470 --> 00:07:18,280 They're filling a lot of hours, they're working really hard. 138 00:07:18,290 --> 00:07:19,710 They're not getting the support, they need it. 139 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,320 And it was just so complicated to do what I felt was a very 140 00:07:23,370 --> 00:07:27,950 easy thing, like swap out an assistant or find someone new. 141 00:07:28,090 --> 00:07:31,080 But there's processes and protocols and you know, it 142 00:07:31,090 --> 00:07:33,200 wasn't so easy. And then the rest is history. 143 00:07:33,210 --> 00:07:37,400 I decided it was time to leave and I wanted to make changes in 144 00:07:37,410 --> 00:07:41,070 how I practiced and impact those that I worked with and take all 145 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,030 the wonderful things I learned from people of what to do and 146 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,760 not to do and build my own firm that way. 147 00:07:46,860 --> 00:07:51,380 Fantastic, by starting your firm, can I ask you about what 148 00:07:51,390 --> 00:07:54,920 were some of the main things that you wanted changed when you 149 00:07:54,930 --> 00:07:59,730 started your own place? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the 150 00:07:59,740 --> 00:08:05,330 big things was just how the structure of the firm works. 151 00:08:05,340 --> 00:08:08,130 Because the way I sort of saw it, I had been like a high 152 00:08:08,140 --> 00:08:11,410 performing associate and became a partner is sometimes as high 153 00:08:11,420 --> 00:08:16,010 performing people, the more you work, the less you get paid in a 154 00:08:16,020 --> 00:08:18,620 weird sort of way, especially in the associate ranks. 155 00:08:18,630 --> 00:08:22,690 And I wanted to change how we worked and how we compensated 156 00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:24,890 people. So I implemented maximum 157 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:28,090 billable hours, which is the opposite for those who don't 158 00:08:28,100 --> 00:08:31,290 work in big law here they mostly have minimum billable hours. 159 00:08:31,300 --> 00:08:35,900 So you have to bill at least X usually 17118 hundred hours a 160 00:08:35,909 --> 00:08:37,820 year. And we'd have these wild 161 00:08:37,830 --> 00:08:41,730 spreadsheets with like how many hours you built in the month if 162 00:08:41,740 --> 00:08:44,580 you go on vacation and if you work on a trial. 163 00:08:44,590 --> 00:08:47,360 But if something else happens, like how can you make sure you 164 00:08:47,370 --> 00:08:50,160 get all your hours plus all the non billables on top of it? 165 00:08:50,170 --> 00:08:52,450 And it was, I sort of thought that's not really we should be 166 00:08:52,460 --> 00:08:55,740 thinking as a work and not necessarily about the number of 167 00:08:55,750 --> 00:08:58,460 hours we have to do. And are we doing quality work? 168 00:08:58,470 --> 00:09:01,260 And is it billable work? And is it, you know, helping the 169 00:09:01,270 --> 00:09:04,240 cause? So I implemented maximum bill 170 00:09:04,250 --> 00:09:08,700 Bower so no one on my team can work more than 17150 hours a 171 00:09:08,710 --> 00:09:10,090 year. And that was the number that was 172 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:12,060 agreed upon by the team. And I'm going to explain to you 173 00:09:12,070 --> 00:09:16,810 why they had a very big, they had a lot of, I'm gonna explain 174 00:09:16,820 --> 00:09:19,910 to you why they had a lot of input into the numbers in a 175 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,090 minute. And that has to do with our 176 00:09:21,100 --> 00:09:23,660 compensation structure. But they can only work a certain 177 00:09:23,670 --> 00:09:25,810 amount of hours a year. And people say to me like, 178 00:09:25,820 --> 00:09:28,770 Baron, this doesn't make sense. How can you do that? 179 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:30,350 What if someone's working on a trial? 180 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,230 Do you just tell them to stop because they've hit their hours? 181 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,770 Like that's not really how the world works. 182 00:09:35,820 --> 00:09:41,250 No one is 1 day at 0 hours and the next day at 1750, there's a 183 00:09:41,260 --> 00:09:44,030 gradual buildup of hours that you make. 184 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,150 So you realize we're really busy and we have a trial coming. 185 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,010 We've hired people, we've hired people to help full time. 186 00:09:51,020 --> 00:09:52,890 We've hired people to fill in the gaps. 187 00:09:52,900 --> 00:09:56,690 If we need someone to help us do some assignments on a off, like 188 00:09:56,700 --> 00:09:59,550 one off basis, it's totally doable. 189 00:09:59,630 --> 00:10:03,780 That was a big thing for me. And then the second huge thing 190 00:10:03,790 --> 00:10:06,840 is that we have a profit share. And the profit share is for 191 00:10:06,850 --> 00:10:10,500 anyone that works at the firm more than a year, staff included 192 00:10:10,510 --> 00:10:13,320 and lawyers. They give it their pay is part 193 00:10:13,330 --> 00:10:16,660 of the profits of the company and they get some of them good 194 00:10:16,670 --> 00:10:20,200 amounts of profit share. So if they everyone pulls their 195 00:10:20,210 --> 00:10:23,340 weight, does their part and you know, your hours are billable, 196 00:10:23,350 --> 00:10:26,120 your clients are happy, they're coming back for more work. 197 00:10:26,170 --> 00:10:28,720 You're not wasting, you're know, you're communicating well with 198 00:10:28,730 --> 00:10:29,910 them. You're not wasting time on 199 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,230 things that aren't billable, then you're gonna make more 200 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,060 money. And it really has changed the 201 00:10:34,070 --> 00:10:36,850 way everyone has looked at firm. But it also they were like, 202 00:10:36,860 --> 00:10:39,020 well, fair, we're getting a profit here, but we also want to 203 00:10:39,030 --> 00:10:40,440 make sure we work a certain amount of hours. 204 00:10:40,450 --> 00:10:42,560 So that's, I thought 1750 was high. 205 00:10:42,670 --> 00:10:46,490 It's gonna be, it's what was everyone had agreed to. 206 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:48,910 So that's different. We do a lot of things by 207 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:50,520 consensus. We have meetings. 208 00:10:50,530 --> 00:10:53,770 We make decisions differently than we had in the big firm. 209 00:10:53,780 --> 00:10:57,990 So we fired big clients, how we hire clients, how we make 210 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,010 business decisions. We can just be a little bit more 211 00:11:01,020 --> 00:11:05,390 nimble and less afraid of the consequences of it. 212 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,840 So it's been pretty great so far. 213 00:11:07,850 --> 00:11:10,750 I mean, not everything, not all our decisions have been perfect. 214 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,880 I'd love to say that they are, but it's nice to have something 215 00:11:13,890 --> 00:11:18,010 you own and that the team has built together and we stand 216 00:11:18,020 --> 00:11:20,190 together with the decisions that are made. 217 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,130 Amazing. Well, I, I must mention, I think 218 00:11:23,140 --> 00:11:25,830 I saw on LinkedIn a few days ago, you guys did some kind of 219 00:11:25,950 --> 00:11:27,970 hamburger tasting or something like that. 220 00:11:28,020 --> 00:11:31,170 Loved the team got together and all of that. 221 00:11:31,180 --> 00:11:34,370 So very, very cool. Yeah, we had a blind tasting of 222 00:11:34,380 --> 00:11:36,930 burgers. We are a fast food lovers at our 223 00:11:36,940 --> 00:11:38,770 firm. We try not to eat it all the 224 00:11:38,780 --> 00:11:41,590 time, but we do indulge and we had a great night. 225 00:11:41,660 --> 00:11:44,020 That's amazing. Well, one thing that stands out 226 00:11:44,030 --> 00:11:47,050 about the firm is, is this focus on client experience. 227 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,930 I was reading through your materials and in your website 228 00:11:49,940 --> 00:11:53,060 and it really talks a lot about this focus and also just 229 00:11:53,070 --> 00:11:55,270 sustainable practice. You just mentioned that the 230 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,750 maximum amount of hours. So I'm curious you to hear a 231 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,810 little more about how does that show up in the Bay today? 232 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,730 With your team I mean. For example I have 3 kids. 233 00:12:04,740 --> 00:12:07,020 Some people at our firm have kids, some have hobbies, some 234 00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:09,830 have a life, some love TV shows or playing video games or 235 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,000 whatever it is. And the work we do is really 236 00:12:12,010 --> 00:12:15,670 important and very serious. But life is important too. 237 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:19,350 And I find that people are better at their jobs, doing 238 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,010 better work for clients and are happier and more engaged when 239 00:12:23,020 --> 00:12:25,490 they get a break. So it doesn't always happen. 240 00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:28,200 If you're in a trial, again, it's not like, oh, we just don't 241 00:12:28,210 --> 00:12:31,090 work during the trial. No, we're working 17 hour days. 242 00:12:31,100 --> 00:12:34,470 It's really hard, but we try not to work weekends a lot. 243 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,910 We try not to work evenings unless it's urgent. 244 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,150 And part of that is so people can enjoy their lives. 245 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,690 And part of it is I think you actually do better work when you 246 00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:46,710 turn off your work brain for a little bit and take a break and 247 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,230 come back at something the next day. 248 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,940 You have a new perspective on it, or you take a break and the 249 00:12:52,950 --> 00:12:55,600 way you approach the problem or the way you write the e-mail is 250 00:12:55,610 --> 00:12:59,160 just different. So I think that has made a big 251 00:12:59,170 --> 00:13:01,420 difference in the quality of work that we have. 252 00:13:01,430 --> 00:13:04,480 And I think it also helps keep people engaged in the firm. 253 00:13:04,490 --> 00:13:07,040 And we've had very little turnover with lawyers. 254 00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:09,520 And that really impacts the client experience, right? 255 00:13:09,530 --> 00:13:10,920 I talked to a friend at a big firm. 256 00:13:10,930 --> 00:13:14,660 She was associate #12 on a file that wasn't that long because 257 00:13:14,670 --> 00:13:16,400 people kept leaving and changing. 258 00:13:16,410 --> 00:13:19,760 And that's not always good for the clients or the work product. 259 00:13:19,770 --> 00:13:22,440 So I think allowing people to take breaks so they stay and 260 00:13:22,450 --> 00:13:25,350 keep on the file in the long term is much better than someone 261 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,860 who would just grind and work on the file continuously and maybe 262 00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:31,480 burn out. So for us, it's worked so far 263 00:13:31,490 --> 00:13:35,910 and I hope it continues to do. So talking a little more about 264 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,150 your practice, you did mention that there's like a solicitor 265 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,010 aspect to a barristers aspect to it. 266 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,300 And I'm curious, from your perspective, what are some of 267 00:13:45,310 --> 00:13:48,390 the most common mistakes that companies will make in 268 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,410 construction projects that later will turn into legal fights? 269 00:13:52,460 --> 00:13:56,130 I think they don't deal with conflicts early and head on and 270 00:13:56,140 --> 00:13:59,130 I don't know and I don't believe this just applies to 271 00:13:59,140 --> 00:14:02,450 construction. People want to avoid conflicts 272 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,690 and I understand why completely because I deal with conflicts 273 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:10,470 all the time. But not dealing with a concern 274 00:14:10,530 --> 00:14:14,270 early on can have huge ripple effects in the project. 275 00:14:14,340 --> 00:14:17,210 So give you an example. We review a contract from 276 00:14:17,220 --> 00:14:20,020 someone, tell them there are a lot of terms that are 277 00:14:20,030 --> 00:14:23,720 problematic. If the, if the project goes S, 278 00:14:23,730 --> 00:14:27,260 if there's a problem, you are gonna have a huge amount of risk 279 00:14:27,270 --> 00:14:30,900 and it's gonna be problematic. And that's fine, fair, don't 280 00:14:30,910 --> 00:14:33,370 worry. They sign it and then something 281 00:14:33,380 --> 00:14:37,080 goes wrong and it's a huge problem because they didn't want 282 00:14:37,090 --> 00:14:38,540 to have that discussion early on. 283 00:14:38,550 --> 00:14:40,880 They didn't want to try to deal with that risk early on. 284 00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:43,800 I'm not saying they had to pass all the risk over, but maybe 285 00:14:43,810 --> 00:14:45,890 splitting it. The same happens when there are 286 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:50,020 delays on jobs or changes. People don't want to have to 287 00:14:50,030 --> 00:14:52,680 deal with it right away. We're late projects late. 288 00:14:52,690 --> 00:14:55,680 Let's accept that it's late. Let's make a plan to solve it 289 00:14:55,690 --> 00:14:59,200 and we'll deal with this lateness, this small lateness 290 00:14:59,210 --> 00:15:01,680 now, later. But instead they don't deal with 291 00:15:01,690 --> 00:15:04,140 it and gets worse and no one knows how they're dealing with 292 00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:06,590 it and everyone's trying to cover for it and there's no real 293 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,690 plan to fix it and everyone's blaming everyone. 294 00:15:08,780 --> 00:15:12,390 And then it gets even later. Or the the one change that you 295 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,870 could solve becomes 12 changes that needs to be solved. 296 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,770 So I think it's about really working as a team and trying to 297 00:15:18,780 --> 00:15:23,810 solve and deal with problems head on early before things get 298 00:15:23,820 --> 00:15:26,090 out of control. But I think that probably 299 00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:29,380 applies to many areas of law. Well, it sounds like something 300 00:15:29,390 --> 00:15:32,730 that that we can take in our personal lives and really just 301 00:15:32,740 --> 00:15:34,660 applies to about everything. I love it. 302 00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:38,320 Well, something that I also read that that you've spoken about in 303 00:15:38,330 --> 00:15:42,170 the past is mentoring lawyers and building bearing bearing 304 00:15:42,180 --> 00:15:45,130 environments in the profession. So you've mentioned, I know 305 00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:48,800 you're trying to do that with your firm and I'm curious I once 306 00:15:48,810 --> 00:15:51,650 you hear more a little bit about your perspectives on that and 307 00:15:51,660 --> 00:15:55,190 and even what do you think young lawyers need most today that 308 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,070 they often do not get early in their? 309 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,150 Careers. So everyone I think needs 310 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,230 something different, Although there's a theme to this. 311 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:06,200 When I became a mentor at the big firm where you got to mentor 312 00:16:06,210 --> 00:16:08,710 an articling student, it was like a very big honor. 313 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,460 Not only did you get like a big lunch budget that you could take 314 00:16:11,470 --> 00:16:14,810 them out to fancy restaurants and all that fun stuff, but also 315 00:16:14,820 --> 00:16:18,150 I took my job really seriously. And when I first became a 316 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,990 mentor, my goal was I'm going to make sure all my mentees get 317 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,380 hired back to make sure they find groups they like and 318 00:16:23,390 --> 00:16:26,290 they're going to get hired. And like by the third year, I 319 00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:30,380 realized like that wasn't right for everyone or possible for all 320 00:16:30,390 --> 00:16:32,440 of them. And, you know, while that was my 321 00:16:32,450 --> 00:16:36,320 goal to be the best mentor and make sure my students got their 322 00:16:36,330 --> 00:16:40,000 choice of jobs, that wasn't totally the right way of looking 323 00:16:40,010 --> 00:16:41,680 at it. And I realized that they had to 324 00:16:41,690 --> 00:16:43,580 have a good articling experience. 325 00:16:43,650 --> 00:16:46,340 That's what all of them needed. And for each of them, it was 326 00:16:46,350 --> 00:16:48,860 different. So what it meant is good 327 00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:52,820 experience, getting to work in the areas they want ability and 328 00:16:52,830 --> 00:16:55,560 what I find out the ability of the independence, but to have 329 00:16:55,570 --> 00:16:58,660 someone right there behind them to help them and be there for 330 00:16:58,670 --> 00:17:02,540 them and have their back. So, you know, the best mentoring 331 00:17:02,550 --> 00:17:06,520 is to let people kind of take those steps, put them in the the 332 00:17:06,530 --> 00:17:09,819 deep end, but don't walk away. You know, you're right there, 333 00:17:09,829 --> 00:17:12,490 you have the life preserver, you're coaching, I'm on what to 334 00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:15,510 do and Judy can jump in and help them if they need it. 335 00:17:15,579 --> 00:17:19,410 And I find that really allows people to learn and grow. 336 00:17:19,420 --> 00:17:22,750 And when mistakes happen, because like things happen that 337 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,530 are not ideal in our cases all the time. 338 00:17:25,540 --> 00:17:28,590 Or you do something and you wish you had done something else to 339 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,130 be supportive, to listen, talk about what the options were and 340 00:17:32,140 --> 00:17:33,770 how you do it differently next time. 341 00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:36,050 Like that's the best way to learn. 342 00:17:36,060 --> 00:17:41,410 And not to blame or shame people for making mistakes, but have a 343 00:17:41,420 --> 00:17:43,420 conversation about it. And sometimes I was having a 344 00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:45,240 conversation that speaks with really shave done it 345 00:17:45,250 --> 00:17:46,990 differently. I said, no, I, I really, after 346 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,160 all my years of experience, I don't think you should have done 347 00:17:49,170 --> 00:17:50,710 differently. You made the right decision. 348 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,250 It just didn't turn out the way that you had wanted like with 349 00:17:54,260 --> 00:17:57,250 the information you had when you made the decision, you made the 350 00:17:57,260 --> 00:18:01,190 right decision even though we didn't solve resolve the case. 351 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,210 And I think it helped them feel better. 352 00:18:03,260 --> 00:18:07,270 But having that independence to be free to do it, make some 353 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,710 mistakes that have us good safety net is. 354 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,450 Health fantastic too. close our episode today. 355 00:18:12,460 --> 00:18:16,110 Why don't you ask you what's one piece of practical advice you'd 356 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:19,050 give to younger lawyers who are trying to build a meaningful 357 00:18:19,060 --> 00:18:22,210 career, a sustainable career, once you really thrive in the 358 00:18:22,220 --> 00:18:25,350 profession? So when I started, I was too 359 00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:30,090 afraid to take anyone up on their offers to help or reach 360 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:34,030 out to anyone to talk to them about their careers or learn 361 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,530 more or ask for help or get more information. 362 00:18:37,540 --> 00:18:41,580 And it was so foolish. The legal profession is full of 363 00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:44,520 people that will help you, that will mentor you, that will give 364 00:18:44,530 --> 00:18:47,840 you advice, that will you're, you're working on a file and you 365 00:18:47,850 --> 00:18:49,900 have a question. They will answer your question 366 00:18:49,910 --> 00:18:52,880 without asking to get paid, without asking for anything in 367 00:18:52,890 --> 00:18:55,280 return. And people are so happy to help 368 00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:59,780 and engage with junior lawyers who are starting their careers 369 00:18:59,850 --> 00:19:03,000 and young lawyers. And the worst thing to do is 370 00:19:03,010 --> 00:19:07,600 just not try and like, not ask for help or reach out to people 371 00:19:07,610 --> 00:19:09,930 like, and what will happen? What's the worst thing that will 372 00:19:09,940 --> 00:19:12,260 happen if you do reach out? They won't respond to you. 373 00:19:12,270 --> 00:19:15,600 Like the stakes are so low. And the best thing is you can 374 00:19:15,610 --> 00:19:18,220 make valuable connections, referral sources. 375 00:19:18,230 --> 00:19:20,460 You could get a job from someone one day. 376 00:19:20,510 --> 00:19:23,650 You could make friends from it. So I think just get out there, 377 00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:26,690 pick up the phone, send an e-mail, someone sent someone a 378 00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:29,490 LinkedIn message to say you like their posts and engage with 379 00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:31,810 them. And what you will get in return 380 00:19:31,820 --> 00:19:33,870 is far more than what you ask for. 381 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,490 And then you will pay it forward. 382 00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:38,370 And I think I wish I had done it earlier in my career. 383 00:19:38,380 --> 00:19:42,990 I'm still catching up, but it has just been so rewarding to 384 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,630 connect with so many different people with different 385 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,950 backgrounds and learn so much from them. 386 00:19:48,020 --> 00:19:50,780 I really appreciate you taking the time to be in the podcast 387 00:19:50,790 --> 00:19:53,590 and to sharing your insights. It's been an honor. 388 00:19:53,660 --> 00:19:56,000 Thank you so much for having me, this was great.