1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,870 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,270 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,650 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,660 --> 00:00:44,770 is for you. World Today have the opportunity 11 00:00:44,780 --> 00:00:48,270 to interview Ruben Camacho, who is an Associate Corporate 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,930 Counsel at RSA Security. He focuses on corporate and 13 00:00:51,940 --> 00:00:55,110 commercial matters and I'm very excited to interview him today, 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,830 learn about his position, how he got to where he is, and also to 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:00,730 hear a little bit about his involvement with council. 16 00:01:00,740 --> 00:01:03,330 Well, thank you so much for taking the time to being with us 17 00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:04,989 today, Ruben. Yeah, of course. 18 00:01:05,220 --> 00:01:08,010 Thanks for having me, Claudio. As you said, Ruben Camacho, 19 00:01:08,020 --> 00:01:09,950 Associate Corporate Counsel, RSA Security. 20 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:12,390 I mostly focus on commercial transactions. 21 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,130 As an IT company, we're mostly dealing with SAS agreements, but 22 00:01:16,140 --> 00:01:19,490 we also do a lot with vendor contracts, Dpas, just other 23 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:21,990 partnerships in general with channel agreements as well. 24 00:01:22,060 --> 00:01:25,630 For the most part, my day-to-day is kind of varied, which is one 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:27,030 of the things I love about in housework. 26 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,270 So that's kind of what brought me to that Roman general. 27 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,790 Amazing. OK, that's, that's quite cool. 28 00:01:31,980 --> 00:01:34,860 Happy to learn a little bit more about your your background and 29 00:01:34,870 --> 00:01:38,500 day-to-day. And I'd love to ask you from 30 00:01:38,510 --> 00:01:42,190 what I saw here, you begin your career in business and sales 31 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,950 before going into law. So wouldn't you ask you a little 32 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:48,330 bit more of that if having that experience helped you to, you 33 00:01:48,340 --> 00:01:51,890 know, shape the way you approach contract negotiation, if it 34 00:01:51,900 --> 00:01:55,180 helped you to, you know, have like a different eye set when 35 00:01:55,190 --> 00:01:57,810 you go to, you know, risk management and all of that. 36 00:01:57,820 --> 00:02:00,830 What do you feel that that looks like and how has that changed 37 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:02,090 your practice? Yeah. 38 00:02:02,100 --> 00:02:05,650 So honestly, especially after having discussions with other 39 00:02:05,660 --> 00:02:07,970 in-house attorneys during interviews and then just 40 00:02:07,980 --> 00:02:10,680 discussing it during my day-to-day with business 41 00:02:10,690 --> 00:02:13,340 partners and within my company and also with the other 42 00:02:13,350 --> 00:02:15,140 companies that we're dealing with, customers and vendors. 43 00:02:15,150 --> 00:02:17,680 I would say that my kind of sales and business background 44 00:02:17,690 --> 00:02:19,690 in, in my own opinion, is probably one of my biggest 45 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:21,860 competitive advantages as an attorney. 46 00:02:21,910 --> 00:02:25,500 I used to work for Inside Enterprise, which was actually 47 00:02:25,590 --> 00:02:29,120 one of our now channel partners. So I was a sales Rep for them. 48 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,040 So I'm very familiar with it sales. 49 00:02:31,270 --> 00:02:34,590 I also come from a background of an immigrant family who started 50 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,140 their own businesses most of my life growing up through high 51 00:02:37,150 --> 00:02:39,620 school and even while in college and law school, I was working 52 00:02:39,630 --> 00:02:42,350 full time for my dad as well. And I just got used to 53 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,560 negotiating and discussing and talking with customers and using 54 00:02:46,570 --> 00:02:48,980 that business language, right? It's a different language that 55 00:02:48,990 --> 00:02:53,280 we use lawyers versus business people and kind of coming from 56 00:02:53,290 --> 00:02:56,240 that business background gave me the ability to have those 57 00:02:56,250 --> 00:02:59,280 discussions with them and know that if they're not quite 58 00:02:59,290 --> 00:03:01,610 understanding what I'm saying, because I'm using quote, UN 59 00:03:01,610 --> 00:03:05,120 quote lawyer speak. I, I know their language as 60 00:03:05,130 --> 00:03:07,720 well, so I can convert it into something that makes sense to. 61 00:03:07,730 --> 00:03:10,740 Them that's amazing. And from what I see here too, 62 00:03:10,750 --> 00:03:14,560 you've worked across both private practice and in house as 63 00:03:14,570 --> 00:03:17,570 you are right now. So I wanted to ask you too like 64 00:03:17,580 --> 00:03:21,000 what what was the difference or what are a few things that stood 65 00:03:21,010 --> 00:03:24,720 out to you in terms of mindset, pace and even how success is 66 00:03:24,730 --> 00:03:26,080 measured? Yeah, yeah. 67 00:03:26,090 --> 00:03:28,660 So the definitely, definitely a big difference. 68 00:03:28,810 --> 00:03:32,010 I'd say probably the biggest difference is who the client 69 00:03:32,020 --> 00:03:34,850 itself is and then what success looks like at the end of the 70 00:03:34,860 --> 00:03:40,310 day, an attorney is a individual who is counseling a client, 71 00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:45,190 whether it's in my case, it was insurance defence or now at RSA 72 00:03:45,260 --> 00:03:47,950 counseling a company and our business associates within the 73 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,250 company on how to get deals done safely but efficiently. 74 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,870 So in private practice, I was the service provider, right? 75 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,170 My clients were all external, they were insurance companies 76 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:00,010 and I was dealing with success based on billable hours, case 77 00:04:00,020 --> 00:04:02,530 outcomes and just overall client satisfaction. 78 00:04:02,580 --> 00:04:06,490 The pace was really reactive. A case comes in and you're 79 00:04:06,550 --> 00:04:08,340 working the case, you're building the case, you're 80 00:04:08,350 --> 00:04:09,950 closing the case, you're moving to the next one. 81 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,120 In house, I'm actually part of the business and that's one of 82 00:04:12,130 --> 00:04:15,240 the things that I love and why I wanted to go in house is I'm not 83 00:04:15,250 --> 00:04:18,160 just there to be a tool. I'm actually a part of the 84 00:04:18,170 --> 00:04:21,180 business assisting the growth of the company itself and working 85 00:04:21,190 --> 00:04:23,480 on the deals with my business reps. 86 00:04:23,490 --> 00:04:25,980 My client is the company and success is measured by the 87 00:04:25,990 --> 00:04:29,450 overall business outcomes. I'm not simply there to build a 88 00:04:29,460 --> 00:04:30,800 client that the insurance company. 89 00:04:30,810 --> 00:04:34,270 I'm there to help our company close deals in a safe and 90 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:36,200 successful manner. Alright, quite awesome. 91 00:04:36,270 --> 00:04:38,220 Yeah, Thank you so much for sharing that. 92 00:04:38,270 --> 00:04:41,480 So I understand that working across all the fields of 93 00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:44,880 technology, commercial law, the kind of contracts you're dealing 94 00:04:44,890 --> 00:04:47,860 with, it sounds like there's a lot of change that goes on all 95 00:04:47,870 --> 00:04:50,760 the time, right. So when I hear about technology 96 00:04:50,770 --> 00:04:54,160 obviously and all that comes with that and I guess privacy 97 00:04:54,170 --> 00:04:56,780 and all kinds of things, I'm curious to know what kinds of 98 00:04:56,790 --> 00:05:00,760 challenges do do you enjoy most about supporting IT business in 99 00:05:00,770 --> 00:05:03,140 this kind of environment? As you just mentioned that 100 00:05:03,150 --> 00:05:06,210 you're not, you know, just kind of coming in fixing one thing 101 00:05:06,220 --> 00:05:09,410 you're you're kind of having a little bit of like a, a systemic 102 00:05:09,420 --> 00:05:12,970 approach to the business and it's go and and all of. 103 00:05:12,980 --> 00:05:16,270 That, yeah. So for me personally, I love the 104 00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:17,970 speed and the complexity of tech. 105 00:05:17,980 --> 00:05:19,650 Everything's changed in every single day. 106 00:05:19,660 --> 00:05:22,930 Every deal is different because every customer is looking at a 107 00:05:22,940 --> 00:05:25,190 technology and what their requirements are. 108 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,390 From a different perspective, 1 enterprise customer might be 109 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,340 worried about data residency requirements, for instance. 110 00:05:31,350 --> 00:05:33,640 They're in financial services, that's what they got to worry 111 00:05:33,650 --> 00:05:35,700 about. Whereas another customer, 112 00:05:35,740 --> 00:05:38,550 they're going to be more worried about something like security 113 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,390 controls because they're in healthcare, right? 114 00:05:40,460 --> 00:05:42,970 So there's a lot of difference that they're looking at just 115 00:05:42,980 --> 00:05:44,290 based on where they're coming from. 116 00:05:44,380 --> 00:05:47,180 I'd say within that, the challenge that I enjoy the most, 117 00:05:47,250 --> 00:05:49,520 as I mentioned before, is being the translator, right? 118 00:05:49,530 --> 00:05:52,240 I'm, I'm translating between different worlds, legal 119 00:05:52,250 --> 00:05:55,560 requirements to our security teams, security requirements to 120 00:05:55,570 --> 00:05:58,780 our business teams, business requirements back to the legal 121 00:05:58,790 --> 00:06:01,600 team or the security team and how to kind of mesh all those. 122 00:06:01,650 --> 00:06:04,840 I play a crucial part by being kind of in the middle of all 123 00:06:04,850 --> 00:06:07,600 three of those realms and just mixing everything together, 124 00:06:07,670 --> 00:06:10,520 translating from team to team and bringing everything together 125 00:06:10,530 --> 00:06:11,830 kind of help close the deal at the end of. 126 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:14,390 The day amazing. I've taken a look here at 127 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,730 different things that you've engaged with in the past and I 128 00:06:17,740 --> 00:06:20,260 see that you've talked about correcting legal advice with 129 00:06:20,270 --> 00:06:22,710 business goals. And basically that's what we've 130 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,160 been talking about in today's episode as well. 131 00:06:25,250 --> 00:06:28,370 But I'd love to hear a little more about, you know, what that 132 00:06:28,380 --> 00:06:31,790 looks like in practice and, and how do you balance, you know, 133 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,510 protecting the company, helping it grow? 134 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,340 I know that that can be very context dependent. 135 00:06:37,380 --> 00:06:40,630 Some companies have a huge legal department and you just, you 136 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,660 know, work in a very small fraction of what legal is. 137 00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:46,110 But what does that look like in your experience? 138 00:06:46,180 --> 00:06:47,830 Yeah. So honestly, that's overall 139 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:50,900 that's a great question and it's one of the things I think a lot 140 00:06:50,910 --> 00:06:54,310 of people struggle, especially younger attorneys who don't have 141 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,210 a business background. I actually usually have this 142 00:06:57,220 --> 00:06:59,670 conversation quite often with our ex turns that we hire every 143 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,270 semester because this law school kind of teaches you, hey, an 144 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:05,210 attorney needs to be risk averse. 145 00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:07,690 We are running away from risk, running away from risk. 146 00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:09,130 That's what an attorney's job is. 147 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,790 However, in the business world is not that right? 148 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,710 It's a balance of it. So here's a practical example. 149 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,990 Let's let's say sales comes to me with a customer that wants a 150 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,430 $5,000,000 liability cap and we typically do a $1 million 151 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,640 liability cap. The management approach you want 152 00:07:23,650 --> 00:07:26,970 to look at is from a normal attorney. 153 00:07:27,020 --> 00:07:29,470 The risk approach is no, that's too much exposure. 154 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,460 We don't want a $5,000,000 cap. It's too high. 155 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,220 But if you look at it from a business minded approach, you're 156 00:07:35,230 --> 00:07:36,580 going to think about a couple of things. 157 00:07:36,590 --> 00:07:38,910 You're not just going to look at $5,000,000 and be scared of the 158 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,420 number. You're going to say one, what's 159 00:07:40,430 --> 00:07:43,450 the actual likelihood that we run into a $5,000,000 issue with 160 00:07:43,460 --> 00:07:45,220 this customer, right? What are the, what are the 161 00:07:45,230 --> 00:07:47,990 issues that we're looking at? What's the revenue of this deal? 162 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,470 If it's, if we're going to be making 500 to 500 K to 163 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,960 $1,000,000 a year, he'd be that 500 million cat Richard, that 164 00:07:54,970 --> 00:07:57,940 $5,000,000 cap is reasonable. Whereas if it's, you know, a 165 00:07:57,950 --> 00:08:00,710 $50,000 deal, then maybe that cap is way too high. 166 00:08:00,780 --> 00:08:03,300 And then you want to also look at the strategic value of the 167 00:08:03,310 --> 00:08:05,640 customer, right? Is this a, oh, I get to put a 168 00:08:05,650 --> 00:08:09,160 giant company like Microsoft or something on my website that I 169 00:08:09,170 --> 00:08:12,760 protect them versus is this some tiny little thing that other 170 00:08:12,770 --> 00:08:15,460 than, you know, a small check every year, we're not really 171 00:08:15,470 --> 00:08:17,120 going to be collecting any value from it. 172 00:08:17,270 --> 00:08:19,890 And then how can we kind of structure this differently? 173 00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:22,020 Like can we segment certain liabilities out? 174 00:08:22,030 --> 00:08:24,740 Can we give them a larger cap for this where we're protecting 175 00:08:24,750 --> 00:08:27,460 some others on the other side? So overall, when I'm talking to 176 00:08:27,470 --> 00:08:30,840 leadership, it's not here's what the legal risk is, right? 177 00:08:30,850 --> 00:08:34,220 It's here's what the risk is. Here's what the business value 178 00:08:34,230 --> 00:08:35,299 is. And then here's my 179 00:08:35,309 --> 00:08:37,669 recommendation, right? Because we want to play the two 180 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,340 of those together and see where the overall outcome is. 181 00:08:41,350 --> 00:08:43,450 That's going to help the business while also protecting 182 00:08:43,460 --> 00:08:45,250 us. In my opinion, the key is really 183 00:08:45,260 --> 00:08:48,750 being a partner in the decision making process, not a 184 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,270 gatekeeper. I'm very, very opposed to the 185 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,450 quote UN quote office of no. And we prefer to be the office 186 00:08:55,460 --> 00:08:59,430 of yes, we can, but and then there's that dot dot dot right? 187 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,690 That's this is how we get the deal done. 188 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,880 So that's my approach, that's my belief. 189 00:09:03,890 --> 00:09:06,230 And I, I really do think that's a really good way for a lot of 190 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,810 people to look at it when trying to enter the business world of. 191 00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:11,590 That's amazing. We've all that basically the big 192 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,360 advice you just gave. I'd love to hear a little more, 193 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,270 a little more about this involvement that you have with 194 00:09:17,390 --> 00:09:22,310 mentoring lawyers, helping other in-house counsel who are trying 195 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,160 to find a community where they can exchange ideas and, and see 196 00:09:26,170 --> 00:09:29,170 what that looks like. So I understand that you serve 197 00:09:29,180 --> 00:09:32,490 as a regional leader for council well, which brings in house 198 00:09:32,500 --> 00:09:35,490 lawyers to gather for our community for learning and so 199 00:09:35,500 --> 00:09:37,040 forth. And I'd love to learn a little 200 00:09:37,050 --> 00:09:39,450 bit about, you know, what motivated you to, to join the 201 00:09:39,460 --> 00:09:42,910 community to take on that role and, and what have you learned 202 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,170 from this experience as well? Yeah, absolutely. 203 00:09:45,180 --> 00:09:47,790 So I mean, as you mentioned council, well as a community for 204 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,850 in-house lawyers, it brings people together to not only have 205 00:09:50,860 --> 00:09:53,330 a place to converse with other in-house lawyers, but also to 206 00:09:53,340 --> 00:09:56,850 share resources, bounce ideas and just overall help each other 207 00:09:56,860 --> 00:09:59,430 as a community. So I serve as a regionally here 208 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,380 in Chicago. And really the biggest thing 209 00:10:01,390 --> 00:10:04,670 that motivated me to get involved was my own experience 210 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:07,410 when I first started as an attorney in general, I went 211 00:10:07,420 --> 00:10:09,220 through some law school time during COVID. 212 00:10:09,230 --> 00:10:10,520 So things were a little bit different. 213 00:10:10,530 --> 00:10:12,880 I didn't have a lot of the same interaction that a lot of people 214 00:10:12,890 --> 00:10:14,600 had. And then as I mentioned before, 215 00:10:14,670 --> 00:10:17,470 before and after law school, I was already working full time 216 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,040 jobs. And then during law school, I 217 00:10:19,050 --> 00:10:21,640 was working full time helping my dad because of COVID. 218 00:10:21,690 --> 00:10:25,000 So getting into the law, the laws of lonely profession. 219 00:10:25,010 --> 00:10:27,510 And I, I didn't have a very large community around me 220 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,500 because I missed a lot of that outreach. 221 00:10:29,570 --> 00:10:32,040 Not having a large network of in-house attorneys to really go 222 00:10:32,050 --> 00:10:35,140 to questions for I, I love the idea of something like council, 223 00:10:35,150 --> 00:10:38,080 Well, where let's say I have a question, how do you negotiate a 224 00:10:38,090 --> 00:10:40,600 SaaS contract? What's the market liability 225 00:10:40,610 --> 00:10:42,700 caps? How do you build credibility 226 00:10:42,710 --> 00:10:44,760 with a sales team? All those questions that 227 00:10:44,770 --> 00:10:48,000 in-house attorneys need to know, I can go to a community like 228 00:10:48,010 --> 00:10:51,500 Council Well, and I can post it on a chat board and I can get 229 00:10:51,510 --> 00:10:54,860 messages from attorneys all over the country, all over the world, 230 00:10:54,870 --> 00:10:57,420 in different countries, right? And they'll be able to kind of 231 00:10:57,430 --> 00:11:00,240 give that that assistance, give that help and have that 232 00:11:00,250 --> 00:11:02,460 community around you. So what have I learned from 233 00:11:02,470 --> 00:11:05,120 Council experience? Honestly, everyone is dealing 234 00:11:05,130 --> 00:11:06,580 with the same kind of things, right? 235 00:11:06,690 --> 00:11:11,260 Again, the legal world is a very lonely feeling world sometimes. 236 00:11:11,270 --> 00:11:15,160 And I think as humans just in general, we have a very bad 237 00:11:15,170 --> 00:11:18,500 habit of all the world's falling down on me and no one 238 00:11:18,510 --> 00:11:21,620 understands what I'm going through, whether it's at work or 239 00:11:21,630 --> 00:11:24,540 in your personal life or really anytime something kind of goes 240 00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:26,680 wrong, we tend to have that mentality. 241 00:11:26,690 --> 00:11:29,360 And so something like Council Well has really helped me 242 00:11:29,370 --> 00:11:33,340 realize that there are a lot of other people around in this same 243 00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:35,630 position that are dealing with similar themes. 244 00:11:35,700 --> 00:11:38,830 And I do have resources that I can reach out and ask those 245 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,030 questions too. So having that community, I 246 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,690 believe is a big competitive advantage. 247 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,690 Again, being able to reach out to people. 248 00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:48,030 And my, my overall thought is that lawyers who invest in their 249 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,220 network and who share knowledge and help each other are the ones 250 00:11:51,230 --> 00:11:54,210 who are going to help advance not only themselves, but all the 251 00:11:54,220 --> 00:11:56,090 ones around them. And so for me, Council Well 252 00:11:56,100 --> 00:11:58,690 isn't just volunteer work, it's, it's an investment in my own 253 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:01,910 growth and also the growth of all the other people around me 254 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:03,490 and this. Professional, Amazing. 255 00:12:03,820 --> 00:12:07,830 A lot of our audience here are law students, early, early 256 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,590 career lawyers. And I end up receiving a few 257 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,960 questions like, Hey, can you bring some more people to talk 258 00:12:13,970 --> 00:12:17,580 about the role of in-house counsel or how do you get into 259 00:12:17,590 --> 00:12:21,660 in-house positions? And I've, I found interestingly 260 00:12:21,670 --> 00:12:25,140 in the podcast that there is a few different groups of in-house 261 00:12:25,150 --> 00:12:28,820 counsel that I've met people who've usually went through a 262 00:12:28,830 --> 00:12:32,060 big firm and then after that big firm made the move into the 263 00:12:32,070 --> 00:12:34,760 house council. But there's also so many other 264 00:12:34,770 --> 00:12:37,580 ways that people crafted their own journey. 265 00:12:37,630 --> 00:12:40,720 So I'm curious, you know, if if you have a few personal 266 00:12:40,730 --> 00:12:44,540 experiences with that, you know, what steps or even what kind of 267 00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:48,920 mindset help into making that transition from basically lost 268 00:12:48,930 --> 00:12:51,920 students, young lawyer into an in house role. 269 00:12:51,970 --> 00:12:54,000 Yeah. So for the most part, it is 270 00:12:54,010 --> 00:12:57,510 correct that traditionally most people wanna go into that law 271 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,130 firm realm first and that usually takes a few years before 272 00:13:01,140 --> 00:13:03,470 they kind of take that branch over. 273 00:13:03,710 --> 00:13:06,210 I'm an example where it's not always the case. 274 00:13:06,220 --> 00:13:09,470 I was at a law firm for a pretty short amount of time overall 275 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,850 before moving in house, which is usually unheard of. 276 00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:15,110 But I've actually seen more and more attorneys these days that 277 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,120 do kind of make that early stretch into the in-house world. 278 00:13:18,180 --> 00:13:21,770 And the same thing that I kind of hear across the board from my 279 00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:23,870 own opinion, but then also when I talk to some of these other 280 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,270 young in-house attorneys is you just kind of try for it, right? 281 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,670 Really the biggest thing that you'll that most people think 282 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:32,930 they can't go in a house right away is because they're worried 283 00:13:32,940 --> 00:13:35,190 that they don't know the law. Here's the trick. 284 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,390 Most young attorneys, whether they're at a firm or at a 285 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,580 company, they don't know lawyer. Law school really doesn't set 286 00:13:42,590 --> 00:13:44,840 you up to know the practice of law. 287 00:13:44,930 --> 00:13:46,680 It teaches you the theory of law. 288 00:13:46,730 --> 00:13:51,180 So whether you go to a law firm or you get lucky and get into a 289 00:13:51,190 --> 00:13:55,190 company, they know you're a young attorney and they are 290 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,190 there to teach you. And when it comes to being in a 291 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,030 house, the biggest thing they're looking for is knowing the 292 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,680 business versus just knowing, you know, risk averse law, 293 00:14:05,690 --> 00:14:07,400 things that law school teaches you. 294 00:14:07,830 --> 00:14:11,640 So kind of go for it, reach out to companies, talk to people in 295 00:14:11,650 --> 00:14:14,100 the community, right? The number one way you're going 296 00:14:14,110 --> 00:14:16,920 to probably find a position is shaking the hand with someone 297 00:14:16,930 --> 00:14:18,520 and finding out that they have an opening. 298 00:14:18,570 --> 00:14:21,840 So I recommend just not giving up on it, reaching out and 299 00:14:21,850 --> 00:14:24,440 trying to talk to people and take a few swings. 300 00:14:24,450 --> 00:14:27,340 I applied to a bunch of places I knew I wanted to go in house. 301 00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:30,020 I applied to a bunch of places and I eventually had one that 302 00:14:30,030 --> 00:14:32,240 said, yes. So that's just the way that it 303 00:14:32,250 --> 00:14:33,760 works. And you just got to keep taking 304 00:14:33,770 --> 00:14:38,140 swings because as they say, you, you miss every, what's the word 305 00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:41,820 you, you miss every swing that you don't take right though, you 306 00:14:41,830 --> 00:14:43,710 gotta swing forward. And if you strike a couple of 307 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,450 times, that's OK, eventually going to hit that. 308 00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:47,720 Ball fantastic. Now that's awesome. 309 00:14:47,790 --> 00:14:51,120 Well, to to get kind of towards the end of our interview here 310 00:14:51,130 --> 00:14:54,440 today, I'm curious to hear a little bit about your thoughts 311 00:14:54,450 --> 00:14:57,920 on the future of this row of corporate counsel as well. 312 00:14:57,990 --> 00:15:02,040 So we've talked about how in a way in house counsel are not 313 00:15:02,050 --> 00:15:04,820 only lawyers, they're really looking into the business aspect 314 00:15:04,830 --> 00:15:06,720 of it. They're looking into a very 315 00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:10,300 holistic approach to that. And I wanted to know, you know, 316 00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:12,800 from from your time in the profession, even if you've 317 00:15:12,810 --> 00:15:16,340 noticed differences in, you know, expectations, I'm assuming 318 00:15:16,350 --> 00:15:19,680 here that, you know, once you are a lawyer who can integrate 319 00:15:19,690 --> 00:15:22,610 all of those qualities, it becomes kind of an expectation 320 00:15:22,620 --> 00:15:25,880 that if if anybody's ever to take your place or as you get 321 00:15:25,890 --> 00:15:30,550 promoted, the person who's going there is going to have those the 322 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,560 qualities as well is going to be able to do that. 323 00:15:33,570 --> 00:15:36,600 So I wanted to hear a little bit of what you have to say on that. 324 00:15:36,650 --> 00:15:38,920 Yeah. So I mean the the room is 325 00:15:38,930 --> 00:15:41,870 definitely changing. Technology is changing a lot of 326 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:43,960 things. It's making it both easier and 327 00:15:43,970 --> 00:15:47,500 more complicated in a sense. But overall, I really think the 328 00:15:47,510 --> 00:15:50,500 basis of being a good in-house attorney and someone who's 329 00:15:50,510 --> 00:15:53,200 looking to go in house is kind of remained the same, right. 330 00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:56,700 While everything changes, the steady seems to stay the same. 331 00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:59,880 And with that, I mean, I really say that there's a couple key 332 00:15:59,890 --> 00:16:01,660 qualities that you want to look for. 333 00:16:01,710 --> 00:16:04,980 One, if you're looking to hire in-house attorney, but two, if 334 00:16:04,990 --> 00:16:06,540 you want to become an in house attorney. 335 00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:09,160 And then three, for those new roles that are opening up that 336 00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:12,540 you're discussing there, there's a few qualities you kind of 337 00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:14,010 really looking for. So first, let's say it's 338 00:16:14,020 --> 00:16:16,110 business judgment. We've discussed this a little 339 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,400 bit, but you have to understand the business that you're 340 00:16:18,410 --> 00:16:21,170 supporting, not just the legal issues, the revenue model, the 341 00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:25,050 competitive landscape, the customer base, who your biggest 342 00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:27,410 competitors in the realm are, right? 343 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,010 The best in-house lawyers are the ones that can sit down at a 344 00:16:30,020 --> 00:16:33,010 meeting with anyone in the company and contribute 345 00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:36,280 strategically and have a discussion, not just responsive 346 00:16:36,290 --> 00:16:38,590 legal questions. An example of that, when I first 347 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,330 started with RSA, the first thing I did in my first month, 348 00:16:41,340 --> 00:16:44,510 two months there was not start whipping out a bunch of 349 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,310 contracts. It was meetings on the calendar 350 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,140 with just about every single manager, leader and executive in 351 00:16:51,150 --> 00:16:54,810 my company to find what they're looking for from a legal 352 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,500 perspective, what issues they've had before with legal and what 353 00:16:58,510 --> 00:17:01,960 would success look like for them coming from the legal team, 354 00:17:01,970 --> 00:17:03,500 Right? And that's how you start to 355 00:17:03,510 --> 00:17:05,460 learn things about the company itself. 356 00:17:05,470 --> 00:17:08,500 Second quality, I would say is probably a good scalability 357 00:17:08,510 --> 00:17:11,530 mindset. If you are being successful 358 00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:14,780 within a company, the company is going to be growing. 359 00:17:15,230 --> 00:17:19,250 And typically legal teams are usually pretty lean, lean. 360 00:17:19,650 --> 00:17:22,480 You're not going to be able to touch every single contract or 361 00:17:22,490 --> 00:17:25,500 fully review every single e-mail or every single decision. 362 00:17:25,810 --> 00:17:29,740 You have to be able to build systems around you so people 363 00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:32,410 understand, are involved, and then you can trust what's going 364 00:17:32,420 --> 00:17:35,400 on around you. So for example, my GC, he's the 365 00:17:35,410 --> 00:17:38,400 one who ultimately signs off on things that go to the legal 366 00:17:38,410 --> 00:17:40,160 team. He doesn't touch every single 367 00:17:40,170 --> 00:17:43,990 contract, he doesn't review every single NDA or quotes or 368 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,670 anything else that comes from customers. 369 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,210 That's, that's what the rest of the team is there for. 370 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,850 And we've all worked with him and trained with him to know 371 00:17:50,860 --> 00:17:52,570 exactly what the company is looking for. 372 00:17:52,580 --> 00:17:55,050 And we know the company enough to know what the risks are. 373 00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:58,070 So if we send something to him, he knows it's been done 374 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,010 correctly. And then third, I would say 375 00:18:00,020 --> 00:18:02,220 adaptability. But one of the biggest things 376 00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:06,430 that was a huge difference for me from being at a firm to being 377 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,970 in house is every single day is different. 378 00:18:09,020 --> 00:18:10,850 Every single thing I'm looking at is different. 379 00:18:10,860 --> 00:18:14,130 So you have to have to have to be comfortable with change new 380 00:18:14,140 --> 00:18:16,780 products, new markets, new regulations, new competitors, 381 00:18:16,790 --> 00:18:19,100 Everything is happening all the time. 382 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,710 And the lawyers who are going to succeed in the in-house business 383 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,730 world are the ones who say, I don't know the answer, but let 384 00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:29,590 give me a little bit of time. I'm gonna go figure it out. 385 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,870 And then we can discuss an approach to it, right? 386 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:33,730 That's, that's what we're looking for. 387 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,230 That's that's definitely what I recommend. 388 00:18:36,290 --> 00:18:39,050 Amazing. So Ruben, we've we've discussed 389 00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:41,030 quite a bit about the value of community. 390 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,550 You mentioned about your role at Council and I wanted to ask you 391 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,130 here a little more about, you know, have there been, you know, 392 00:18:49,140 --> 00:18:53,770 mentors or specific moments that really shaped how you lead or 393 00:18:53,780 --> 00:18:55,830 make decisions nowadays as a lawyer? 394 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,630 Yes. So a couple definitely come to 395 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,030 mind. When I was at the law firm, I 396 00:19:00,100 --> 00:19:03,120 had a mentor there for sure who was one of the partners at the 397 00:19:03,130 --> 00:19:04,720 firm. He kind of helped me from the 398 00:19:04,730 --> 00:19:09,080 beginning, taught me a lot about what I was doing, um, how to 399 00:19:09,090 --> 00:19:12,460 approach a lot of the things and just how to kind of get these 400 00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:15,460 cases and situations handled. And it was kind of funny because 401 00:19:15,470 --> 00:19:18,860 he also came from a business background and that's kind of 402 00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:21,750 the approach that him and I started taking with a lot of the 403 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,040 cases that we were dealing with, right? 404 00:19:23,050 --> 00:19:24,440 Because again, it's insurance defence. 405 00:19:24,570 --> 00:19:28,340 And so we were, Hey, it's not necessarily the perfect deal, 406 00:19:28,350 --> 00:19:31,320 but how can we get this done to where it's going to cost our 407 00:19:31,330 --> 00:19:34,740 client less money than going to court or going to trial, right. 408 00:19:34,750 --> 00:19:37,540 And it just so happened that he was also a very good friend of 409 00:19:37,550 --> 00:19:41,540 my now GC, my now boss. And I've actually worked for my 410 00:19:41,550 --> 00:19:44,740 GC a couple times at this point at his last job is as that's a 411 00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:46,500 company that he was at GC4 as well. 412 00:19:46,610 --> 00:19:49,740 And so he's been a mentor of mine for many years at this 413 00:19:49,750 --> 00:19:52,860 point and is kind of helped me understand and he's the one who 414 00:19:53,070 --> 00:19:55,940 who teaches me a lot of these things of the difference between 415 00:19:55,950 --> 00:19:59,390 just pure risk and the business value that you're also facing. 416 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,060 The immediate moment that kind of was a light bulb for me. 417 00:20:02,070 --> 00:20:04,880 I'll never forget the day that he looks at me and says, hey, 418 00:20:05,070 --> 00:20:07,580 we're going to breach this contract with the vendor, send 419 00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:10,740 the notice out and it's like. Young out of law school, my 420 00:20:10,750 --> 00:20:12,160 first response is what are you talking about? 421 00:20:12,170 --> 00:20:14,810 We can't breach the contract. We're gonna we're breaching the 422 00:20:14,820 --> 00:20:16,560 contract. Number one rule, don't breach 423 00:20:16,570 --> 00:20:18,650 the contract. And then he tells me why not I 424 00:20:18,660 --> 00:20:21,140 said, well, what do you we'd be violating the country goes yeah, 425 00:20:21,150 --> 00:20:24,450 sure, but what is it going to cost us to breach the contract? 426 00:20:24,460 --> 00:20:26,690 What is it going to cost them to enforce it? 427 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,230 Not worth us paying out something that we're no longer 428 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,680 using and we're just going to breach the contract and we're 429 00:20:32,690 --> 00:20:35,690 going to have a much smaller payment in the long run because 430 00:20:35,740 --> 00:20:39,030 we it's it's it makes business sense to get out of it right. 431 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,810 And it's something as simple as that kind of opened my eyes to 432 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,460 everyone is very black and white when it comes to legal and in 433 00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:48,910 the business room and there's a lot of Gray area right. 434 00:20:48,980 --> 00:20:51,670 It isn't you enforce the contractor, you breach the 435 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,650 contract. It is there's a whole lot of 436 00:20:53,660 --> 00:20:56,740 middle ground where, yeah, maybe maybe it is more worth it for me 437 00:20:56,750 --> 00:21:00,730 to walk away from this or maybe it is more worth it for me to 438 00:21:00,780 --> 00:21:03,660 give this to this customer, but not to this one or take a little 439 00:21:03,670 --> 00:21:05,520 bit more risk here to get this deal done. 440 00:21:05,530 --> 00:21:09,710 Definitely, definitely a moment that I I looked to my GC and I 441 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,630 know that he's kind of helped me realize a lot of those 442 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,710 differences that that were very different than law school kind 443 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,790 of preps you for. What a story. 444 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,720 What a story to To close today's episode, I wanted to ask you if 445 00:21:21,730 --> 00:21:24,830 there's a piece of advice that you would give to young lawyers 446 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,230 who want to build their careers in a way that's both strategic, 447 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,750 but it's also authentic to who they are. 448 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,100 Yeah. So the first thing I would say 449 00:21:34,110 --> 00:21:37,020 is a unique background is an asset, not a liability. 450 00:21:37,090 --> 00:21:39,860 A lot of times people think, you know, what's the old saying? 451 00:21:39,870 --> 00:21:42,320 I believe it's a Japanese proverb or maybe a Chinese 452 00:21:42,330 --> 00:21:43,780 proverb. The nail that sticks out gets 453 00:21:43,790 --> 00:21:48,170 hammered in this world. I, I would say it's the 454 00:21:48,180 --> 00:21:50,650 opposite, right? The unique background is, is not 455 00:21:50,660 --> 00:21:52,170 a liability. It's definitely an asset. 456 00:21:52,180 --> 00:21:54,340 So whether someone is internationally trained or 457 00:21:54,350 --> 00:21:56,670 they're changing careers or they're coming from a non 458 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,890 traditional path like myself, that different perspective makes 459 00:21:59,900 --> 00:22:01,730 you valuable depending on what you're looking at. 460 00:22:01,740 --> 00:22:06,110 So I was literally told by the 1st in-house attorney GC that 461 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:09,590 hired me that the reason why they were pulling me into their 462 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:15,310 company, even at such a young career stage was because of the 463 00:22:15,380 --> 00:22:18,210 background I had working for my dad's pizza place. 464 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,010 And they said I am looking for someone who understands what a 465 00:22:21,020 --> 00:22:24,490 small family owned business is because that's what we have 466 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:26,790 here, right? That's a different background 467 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,150 that most people who are going through high school probably 468 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,780 don't have growing up working in a family owned restaurant, 469 00:22:33,790 --> 00:22:35,970 right? So it's a very different thing. 470 00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:38,790 And I, I think they should definitely not try to hide those 471 00:22:38,860 --> 00:22:42,130 that different background. They should usually lean into it 472 00:22:42,180 --> 00:22:45,590 because while diversity is not the greatest thing in the world, 473 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,750 it is a very important thing in the world, right? 474 00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:51,050 It's very important to have those different experiences. 475 00:22:51,060 --> 00:22:54,030 It's very important to look at a problem and see it from 476 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,670 different angles. And that's what that diverse 477 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,910 experience and that background will give to people. 478 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,330 Second, definitely be strategic about building skills. 479 00:23:02,340 --> 00:23:04,510 You do not have to be an expert in everything. 480 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,550 You do have to be really good at a few things, right? 481 00:23:07,610 --> 00:23:11,150 You want to be the one who's known for this, this and this, 482 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:12,910 and then I can figure everything else. 483 00:23:13,550 --> 00:23:15,880 That's that's definitely something I would say people 484 00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:18,720 should focus on and find a couple things that they enjoy 485 00:23:18,730 --> 00:23:20,780 and they like and they get really good at it. 486 00:23:20,850 --> 00:23:23,420 Third, again, shout out to council will build your network, 487 00:23:23,490 --> 00:23:25,960 right? The bigger your network is, the 488 00:23:25,970 --> 00:23:28,700 better it's going to be and the more beneficial it's going to be 489 00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:31,140 for your career and also just for your personal growth. 490 00:23:31,150 --> 00:23:34,060 And by that I don't mean I join a bunch of organizations. 491 00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:36,930 So my name is on the on somewhere on their website or 492 00:23:36,940 --> 00:23:38,980 something, right? It's actually get involved, 493 00:23:38,990 --> 00:23:42,750 actually talk to people, go sit down and have coffee, right? 494 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,640 We have a externs that we hire. I mentioned that earlier at RSA, 495 00:23:45,650 --> 00:23:49,360 every single semester and outside of RSA, outside of 496 00:23:49,370 --> 00:23:53,200 council will, outside of any of those, I have a LinkedIn group 497 00:23:53,210 --> 00:23:56,720 of those externs and I have a spreadsheet that shows on that 498 00:23:56,730 --> 00:23:58,560 spreadsheet. When's the last time I've talked 499 00:23:58,570 --> 00:24:00,870 to each one of those externs and I'm talking to them. 500 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,490 I'm keeping up. I'm sending them things like job 501 00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:06,070 opportunities that I see at other companies or other friends 502 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,450 of mine or law firms, and I'm keeping up with them and their 503 00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:12,790 career growth as well. Because guess what? 504 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,500 Those are going to be the future, right? 505 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,380 I got my job with RSA as a previous extern of my current 506 00:24:19,390 --> 00:24:21,620 GC. So when it's my turn to be a GC 507 00:24:21,630 --> 00:24:23,670 at a company, guess who the first people I'm going to look 508 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,390 for? The ones who I've known for 509 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,670 years and the ones who I've guided and the ones who I've 510 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,410 worked with. Growing that network is a very, 511 00:24:31,420 --> 00:24:33,950 very important thing. Another thing I would say is 512 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,810 make sure you're focused on adding value, especially if 513 00:24:36,820 --> 00:24:39,800 you're trying to get to the in-house world in the business 514 00:24:39,870 --> 00:24:42,030 world. Because most of the time legal 515 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,590 is looked at as a cost centre and you wanna help other people 516 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,930 realize that we can be valuable asset to the company and to the 517 00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:52,330 sales team and helping them get that done. 518 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,730 And then last but not least, I really just say just be 519 00:24:54,740 --> 00:24:57,160 authentic right there. There's not a perfect mold of an 520 00:24:57,170 --> 00:25:00,590 attorney out there. You look at myself, my GC and 521 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,200 five other attorneys and guess what? 522 00:25:02,210 --> 00:25:03,410 We're all going to look different. 523 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,400 That's not the important part. The important part is your 524 00:25:07,410 --> 00:25:10,440 professional, you get your stuff done and people enjoy working 525 00:25:10,450 --> 00:25:12,320 with you. Everything else just kind of 526 00:25:12,330 --> 00:25:14,060 rolls along right? So be yourself. 527 00:25:14,130 --> 00:25:15,740 Don't try to fake it till you make it. 528 00:25:15,750 --> 00:25:18,640 How sometimes they'll tell you because eventually, one, the 529 00:25:18,650 --> 00:25:22,140 mask is going to crack and two, you're going to not enjoy what 530 00:25:22,150 --> 00:25:23,300 you're doing if you're doing that. 531 00:25:23,310 --> 00:25:26,240 So I genuinely believe that there's really never been a 532 00:25:26,250 --> 00:25:30,730 better time to kind of build that career because of how vast 533 00:25:30,740 --> 00:25:33,520 some of these communities like council well, are getting where 534 00:25:33,530 --> 00:25:35,200 you have those resources available. 535 00:25:35,210 --> 00:25:37,760 So it's, it's a great time and it's a great opportunity. 536 00:25:37,770 --> 00:25:40,800 And I mean, anyone who does hear this is more than welcome to 537 00:25:40,810 --> 00:25:43,360 reach out to me as well. I'm more than happy to add them 538 00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:45,930 to my network and kind of see and if they ever find themselves 539 00:25:45,940 --> 00:25:47,420 around Chicago, let's get a cup. Of coffee. 540 00:25:47,430 --> 00:25:49,560 Amazing. I'll have to to let you know as 541 00:25:49,570 --> 00:25:52,150 well when I stop. Alright, thank you so much for 542 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,450 sharing that. You know, that piece of advice 543 00:25:54,460 --> 00:25:57,610 and really this conversation. We've been really appreciate you 544 00:25:57,620 --> 00:26:01,050 taking the time to to be in the podcast today and to share this 545 00:26:01,060 --> 00:26:02,350 really, really good. Insights. 546 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:03,920 Absolutely. Claudio, again, thank you for 547 00:26:03,930 --> 00:26:05,690 having me. Definitely don't hesitate to 548 00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:07,710 reach out. You'll find yourself in Chicago. 549 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,210 Let me know and I hope. We'll talk soon. 550 00:26:09,260 --> 00:26:11,250 Absolutely. Thank you so much and thank you 551 00:26:11,260 --> 00:26:13,590 all for taking a listen to today's episode.