1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,520 is for you. Hello, everybody, Hello 11 00:00:44,530 --> 00:00:46,670 everybody, Welcome to another episode of studying Law around 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,100 the world. Today I'm receiving here in 13 00:00:49,110 --> 00:00:53,740 hosting Christiano Terrian. He has an incredible story and 14 00:00:53,750 --> 00:00:57,200 an incredible career. He has over 25 years of 15 00:00:57,210 --> 00:01:00,600 experience at intersection of law, technology and governance. 16 00:01:00,710 --> 00:01:03,640 He's currently based in Toronto and is completing the Global 17 00:01:03,650 --> 00:01:06,840 Professional LLM at the University of Toronto. 18 00:01:07,030 --> 00:01:11,520 And he brings lots of very, very incredible experiences through 19 00:01:11,530 --> 00:01:14,400 his career, but also should this podcast today. 20 00:01:14,470 --> 00:01:17,360 So I wanted to thank you so much for making the time to come and 21 00:01:17,370 --> 00:01:18,880 share a few insights with us today. 22 00:01:18,890 --> 00:01:23,320 Cristiano. Hi. 23 00:01:23,530 --> 00:01:25,320 Hello there. Happy to be here. 24 00:01:25,390 --> 00:01:28,470 Thank you for inviting me. Absolutely. 25 00:01:28,570 --> 00:01:31,830 And to start off our podcast, I'd, I'd love for you to tell us 26 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:34,430 a little more about you know, yourself. 27 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:39,250 I know you teaching multiple law schools and you've done quite, 28 00:01:39,260 --> 00:01:41,770 quite incredibly well. You know, in, in different 29 00:01:41,780 --> 00:01:45,530 programs as well, both academically and in your own law 30 00:01:45,540 --> 00:01:47,230 firm as well. Can can you tell us a little bit 31 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:52,310 about your story? By national citizens from 32 00:01:52,370 --> 00:01:55,850 childhood because I'm my mother's Brazilian, my father's 33 00:01:55,860 --> 00:02:00,460 Quebecois from he's a Canadian from Quebec and I grew up in 34 00:02:00,470 --> 00:02:07,360 this by national bilingual biracial family and and I did my 35 00:02:07,370 --> 00:02:12,740 Munder grad in Brazil in law. Then I had a post I did my 36 00:02:12,750 --> 00:02:15,320 master degree in Spain in law and technology. 37 00:02:15,330 --> 00:02:19,300 At the time I was an intern in the national data protect, 38 00:02:19,310 --> 00:02:23,850 personal data protection protection agency and they came 39 00:02:23,860 --> 00:02:26,160 back to Brazil to be a lawyer again. 40 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:28,840 Then to be a lawyer. I was spent 1213 years. 41 00:02:28,850 --> 00:02:32,870 He was a lawyer in only in the IT area field. 42 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,890 I that's what I did, but also the time saw at the same time I 43 00:02:36,900 --> 00:02:42,250 was a law professor and and I thought in some different 44 00:02:42,260 --> 00:02:46,210 adversities at least. 4 or. Five different conversations 45 00:02:46,220 --> 00:02:53,620 there and coming to Canada, I came to for Apple doctorate and 46 00:02:53,630 --> 00:02:56,760 I plan to come back to Brazil, but I no plans, right? 47 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,800 So they change. So I stayed in Canada where I 48 00:03:00,810 --> 00:03:04,980 have most of my family here, especially in the Quebec region. 49 00:03:05,890 --> 00:03:12,700 And after my doctorate I went to a for a post doc and University 50 00:03:12,710 --> 00:03:17,670 of Ottawa and it was in the area of AI and regulation. 51 00:03:17,740 --> 00:03:21,130 It was the time a few months later this new thing came up. 52 00:03:21,180 --> 00:03:23,450 It was called Chattahoochee by the way. 53 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,050 And things changed since then. Then I went to work for the city 54 00:03:28,060 --> 00:03:29,830 Of Montreal. I was working the data 55 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,470 governance for the city Of Montreal for 30 months and I was 56 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,730 teaching University Of Montreal, was teaching Ottawa. 57 00:03:37,100 --> 00:03:39,850 I was teaching diverse Brazilian universities online most of the 58 00:03:39,860 --> 00:03:44,230 time, unfortunately to Brazil, but here I'm here in Toronto now 59 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,550 I'm teaching at the Toronto Metropolitan University as well. 60 00:03:47,620 --> 00:03:53,750 I'm teaching contract law at ATMUH, Cyberspace Law at 61 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,670 University Of Montreal, and I teach legal research as well 62 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,160 and. No, that's much appreciated. 63 00:04:01,170 --> 00:04:04,110 Thank you so much for for making the time to share a little bit 64 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,010 more of that. I wanted to ask you, you know, 65 00:04:07,020 --> 00:04:10,290 you, you've moved then between Brazil and Canada, practice, 66 00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:13,590 academia, public sector, private work as you just outlined. 67 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,760 And looking back, what are some of the key decisions that shaped 68 00:04:16,769 --> 00:04:19,850 your path? And maybe if you were, you know, 69 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,540 talking to young lawyers today, you know, in, in any country 70 00:04:24,550 --> 00:04:27,490 that they choose to practice, what are, you know, a few things 71 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:30,310 that maybe you would do differently if it was, you know, 72 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:37,380 in 2026. Well, well, yeah, of course, 73 00:04:38,730 --> 00:04:41,250 because how people have to know that I study law in the last 74 00:04:41,260 --> 00:04:44,190 century, right of very fact last millennia. 75 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,860 But some things change in meanwhile, when I started law, 76 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,950 we were writing with typing machines at the time in law 77 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,530 firms. And for example, I have I have 78 00:04:56,540 --> 00:05:02,570 to use carbon copy paper to have copies when local working in as 79 00:05:02,580 --> 00:05:06,950 an intern in law firms even if I had a computer at home and well, 80 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,950 only the lawyer had a computer then and the and the law firm. 81 00:05:11,340 --> 00:05:16,660 But what I can say from them then for now is because I think 82 00:05:16,670 --> 00:05:19,110 we are talking to many people who are very different careers, 83 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,470 right. So I think this is way to 84 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:27,040 understand Mcbath is to say didn't looks nonlinear, but for 85 00:05:27,050 --> 00:05:34,060 me never felt disconnected as I well, I had this because also 86 00:05:34,070 --> 00:05:37,160 because of my ex personal experience that comes between 87 00:05:37,230 --> 00:05:41,540 places in Brazil. In in Brazil, by the way, I was 88 00:05:41,550 --> 00:05:44,300 called Canadians by my friends and here I was always in the 89 00:05:44,310 --> 00:05:50,110 Brazilian for my family. I came back family, but so I 90 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,160 always had the experience of seeing things from more than one 91 00:05:53,170 --> 00:05:57,710 perspective. I was never 11 place, just one 92 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,110 vision. So, So what they stayed with me, 93 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,710 it was was it made me very attentive to how different 94 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,260 cultures and institutions understand the same realities in 95 00:06:09,350 --> 00:06:12,560 different ways. And that connects my work today. 96 00:06:12,620 --> 00:06:16,380 I never saw technology or something outside society. 97 00:06:16,730 --> 00:06:21,440 I see it as part of our culture. It changes how we think we how 98 00:06:21,450 --> 00:06:24,320 we decide how to organize ourselves. 99 00:06:24,630 --> 00:06:29,700 My work has been to understand what it means, what that means 100 00:06:29,710 --> 00:06:32,500 for law or but what limits for society. 101 00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:34,880 I went to law because I wanted to work in government. 102 00:06:34,890 --> 00:06:38,500 By the way, I want to say fix things different at the time in 103 00:06:38,510 --> 00:06:41,800 society. And then for that law is very 104 00:06:41,810 --> 00:06:47,090 useful, but what I do differently? 105 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:52,790 Oh, I wish I I kept programming when I when I got to law school 106 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,110 because I stopped there programming in the middle of 107 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,550 like school. So because things would be easy 108 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,130 now, but now I'm back to programming because programming 109 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:03,590 came became so easy now again. So it's fun. 110 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:07,070 You can finish one night you had you do 3-4 different things. 111 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,850 It's ready already. So much is that have never been 112 00:07:09,860 --> 00:07:11,310 fun. More fun than now. 113 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,920 Programming more accessible, so. Amazing. 114 00:07:15,930 --> 00:07:18,380 Oh, thank you for sharing that. I feel like many early career 115 00:07:18,390 --> 00:07:21,180 lawyers feel that pressure to follow a straight path. 116 00:07:21,450 --> 00:07:24,220 So I really appreciate you sharing a little bit more of 117 00:07:24,230 --> 00:07:27,460 your career as you described it, not as linear. 118 00:07:27,730 --> 00:07:31,780 And I'm curious, you know, what helped you to stay confident 119 00:07:31,790 --> 00:07:36,080 while taking this less traditional steps as you went 120 00:07:36,090 --> 00:07:42,310 about your your career? No, I have also never saw 121 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:47,770 something linear really because also because when I was in law 122 00:07:47,780 --> 00:07:52,170 school I was, I had already spent some years, some years out 123 00:07:52,180 --> 00:07:56,690 of Brazil and King Canada. I decided to do law in Brazil 124 00:07:56,700 --> 00:08:00,810 when I was in Canada, by the way, it was A at the time 125 00:08:00,820 --> 00:08:04,070 decided what to do, I was not even there. 126 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:10,000 So many people see laws as structure like a tree or the 127 00:08:10,010 --> 00:08:15,390 juice positivism view sees law as a pyramid and the pyramid 128 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,190 play with many pyramids inside of this pyramid. 129 00:08:19,340 --> 00:08:23,150 Different areas of law doesn't as a trees that many branches of 130 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,710 different areas of law. Just start somewhere and move 131 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,230 up. That's what people teach you at 132 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,180 law school. I always saw it more like a 133 00:08:30,190 --> 00:08:33,240 network. And then one of my decisions to 134 00:08:33,250 --> 00:08:37,419 do law in, in Canada, it was because of this vision of laws 135 00:08:37,429 --> 00:08:42,799 can all network in a network, seeing laws, a network, you move 136 00:08:42,809 --> 00:08:45,720 between nodes, different roles, different country, different 137 00:08:45,730 --> 00:08:51,800 institutions, but it's still inside the same system and and 138 00:08:51,810 --> 00:08:54,550 you communicate with different parts of the system. 139 00:08:54,600 --> 00:09:01,220 So and that helped me a lot the what might see some of deviation 140 00:09:01,230 --> 00:09:07,270 from an outside from the outside field from the inside is you 141 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,610 can't you is more like exploration and talking about 142 00:09:11,620 --> 00:09:14,590 myself. I too feel confident also about 143 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,860 this. I enter law school early, more 144 00:09:17,870 --> 00:09:21,860 than 30 years ago, and I never really felt a left OK. 145 00:09:21,930 --> 00:09:25,760 I was always in the class, law classroom in the front and the 146 00:09:25,770 --> 00:09:28,200 back in the side, something I never left. 147 00:09:28,210 --> 00:09:31,630 I really never left, even though I was working on the things. 148 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:36,960 I was still in the law school and somewhere so and I never saw 149 00:09:36,970 --> 00:09:40,170 a lost theory. I wanna see if things happen. 150 00:09:40,180 --> 00:09:45,060 That's why also I was never fully only in academia. 151 00:09:47,070 --> 00:09:50,560 That's also so I moved into practice. 152 00:09:50,850 --> 00:09:53,780 Bill. I build small a small legal tech 153 00:09:53,790 --> 00:09:55,760 tools. I at the time he didn't call 154 00:09:55,770 --> 00:10:00,200 this startup, right. We I have this this company. 155 00:10:00,210 --> 00:10:03,890 Of course, it it didn't succeed, but exceed to teach me right. 156 00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:11,170 So and then I then moved to into government in, in the yeah, the 157 00:10:11,180 --> 00:10:15,170 thing that hit me confident is that technology is always brings 158 00:10:15,180 --> 00:10:17,390 us so many solutions. And when it comes with 159 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,170 solutions, it always brings us new problems. 160 00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:23,770 And it's never boring. And sometimes you want it to be 161 00:10:23,780 --> 00:10:27,130 boring, but it's never boring. And there's no one week that I 162 00:10:27,140 --> 00:10:30,270 don't have a, a new AI faint. Oh no, I have to study this 163 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:31,950 thing. So that's it. 164 00:10:33,050 --> 00:10:34,560 Amazing. No, I love that. 165 00:10:34,650 --> 00:10:37,080 It's, it's interesting. I was just listening to a 166 00:10:37,090 --> 00:10:39,720 podcast earlier this week and they they made a funny comment. 167 00:10:39,730 --> 00:10:43,130 They said that you probably would need to be unemployed to 168 00:10:43,140 --> 00:10:45,660 be able to keep up with all the AI news. 169 00:10:46,370 --> 00:10:48,290 And I'm like, well, that sounds about right. 170 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:52,050 That sounds about right. Dollars a day maybe. 171 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:57,250 Absolutely, absolutely. And now that you're, you know, 172 00:10:57,660 --> 00:11:01,810 for quite, quite some time, you know, teaching in law school and 173 00:11:01,820 --> 00:11:04,330 just like you said, you never left, you know, being a student, 174 00:11:04,340 --> 00:11:09,840 being a professor in so many different roles based on what 175 00:11:09,850 --> 00:11:12,640 you see, you know, and what you experience with your students up 176 00:11:12,650 --> 00:11:16,310 until this day. What are some of the the biggest 177 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,310 blind spots you think you see for for lawyers who are either, 178 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,820 you know, entering or re entering the profession? 179 00:11:24,220 --> 00:11:29,370 Yeah, of course. Um, yeah, after our discussion 180 00:11:29,380 --> 00:11:32,610 here, I have to come back to grading students for them. 181 00:11:32,820 --> 00:11:38,010 And then tomorrow I have to OK, have my start risk restarting 182 00:11:38,020 --> 00:11:41,610 for the weekend because I, I have this very different life 183 00:11:41,620 --> 00:11:43,930 now. I'm a part of the time I'm in 184 00:11:43,940 --> 00:11:47,570 class, worried about students and a part of my time I'm in 185 00:11:47,580 --> 00:11:49,630 class again, but worry about the professors, right? 186 00:11:49,700 --> 00:11:54,900 So it I'm learning about this, this, this, this practice also, 187 00:11:55,580 --> 00:12:00,360 um, yeah, law gave me agency. You helped to understand 188 00:12:00,370 --> 00:12:03,000 systems. You have learned to act within 189 00:12:03,010 --> 00:12:06,220 them. But teaching gave me rigor. 190 00:12:06,310 --> 00:12:08,760 If you have to teach something, you have to understand it 191 00:12:08,770 --> 00:12:11,080 properly so you can answer the questions, right? 192 00:12:11,890 --> 00:12:15,080 And the government changed everything for me when I went to 193 00:12:15,090 --> 00:12:18,610 the government, because I started reviewing contracts with 194 00:12:18,620 --> 00:12:23,110 the city was problematic. I had to understand it. 195 00:12:23,220 --> 00:12:26,390 That's not fully understood. I hadn't moved. 196 00:12:26,460 --> 00:12:30,950 So I did so many things there and and one of the reasons I 197 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,540 went to a doctorate was solved. Some problems were side of my 198 00:12:34,550 --> 00:12:39,110 head after eight years in in in the in law government. 199 00:12:39,180 --> 00:12:42,990 And it's very interesting because for me at least, because 200 00:12:43,060 --> 00:12:48,630 so many ethical conflicts that you can live in a government and 201 00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:53,610 that's known thing, right. It's better not to know how laws 202 00:12:53,620 --> 00:12:56,030 are sausages and laws are made right. 203 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,450 Let's us that's why how what people say. 204 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:01,410 So I'll bring to why. And the first thing I started 205 00:13:01,420 --> 00:13:03,810 teaching in Canada was ethics and professionalism. 206 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,980 And on the biggest blind spots I see young lawyers is how they 207 00:13:08,990 --> 00:13:12,540 understand ethics. They think that is ethical 208 00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:16,370 judgments, intuitive, that it will recognize it what is right 209 00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:20,540 when the moment comes and there's a gut feeling, but it's 210 00:13:20,550 --> 00:13:23,120 not. Ethics is a process. 211 00:13:23,130 --> 00:13:27,340 It requires slowing down, thinking carefully, sometimes 212 00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:31,180 resisting pressure. And there is this distinction 213 00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:34,580 from this guy, Daniel Canham, Canham Kinneman. 214 00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:40,100 Yeah, between first, first thinking in slow Frank, the 215 00:13:40,110 --> 00:13:44,080 legal practice push you towards fast thinking many times. 216 00:13:44,490 --> 00:13:49,670 So yeah, you have to do things fast and work and legal reflex, 217 00:13:49,730 --> 00:13:53,550 but ethical decisions usually require a slow thinking and 218 00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,430 early careers. Lawyers are under a lot of 219 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,850 pressure here in Canada. Uh, they work long, long hours. 220 00:14:00,860 --> 00:14:06,420 Expectations do not, not always much support and that's where 221 00:14:06,430 --> 00:14:09,930 shortcuts can happen. And I have seen the 222 00:14:09,940 --> 00:14:14,400 consequences, not always dramatic, but people losing 223 00:14:14,410 --> 00:14:18,370 confidence or even leaving the profession, feeling bad about 224 00:14:18,380 --> 00:14:21,210 it, about it. So the blind spot is thinking 225 00:14:21,220 --> 00:14:25,790 ethics as flexible or intuitive. It is not it. 226 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,740 It has to be built in a deliberate way. 227 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,430 I appreciate you bringing that up. 228 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,790 I think sometimes we'll, we'll get caught up in, in different 229 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,150 things. And, and I also really 230 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,980 appreciate you mentioning this whole thing of, you know, it's, 231 00:14:42,990 --> 00:14:47,150 it's easy to say that there's no necessary like a, a procedure, 232 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:48,820 that there's a gut feeling and all of that. 233 00:14:48,830 --> 00:14:51,980 But if there's something that you learned working with people 234 00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:54,260 from different cultures, different age groups and all of 235 00:14:54,270 --> 00:14:58,700 that, or whatever people consider to be obvious, it, it 236 00:14:58,710 --> 00:15:01,560 can really vary from person to person from, you know, 237 00:15:01,570 --> 00:15:04,120 upbringing, cultural and all of that. 238 00:15:04,330 --> 00:15:11,740 And thinking about all of this, you do work in teaching and 239 00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:16,310 research in AI and technology and the intersection of that 240 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,710 with law. So I'm, I'm sure there's lots to 241 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,180 speak on that. You know, we do, we do see that 242 00:15:25,190 --> 00:15:27,670 every 3rd 1 is about something on AI, right? 243 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,580 We just said how the day would have to have 36 hours to keep up 244 00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:34,800 with that. But if, if you know, if a 245 00:15:34,810 --> 00:15:38,840 well-intentioned junior lawyer wants to start using AI today in 246 00:15:38,850 --> 00:15:43,460 a responsible way and, and maybe in a, in an environment where 247 00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:48,010 there's no, no way eye policy or there's no necessarily an 248 00:15:48,020 --> 00:15:53,730 incentive or guidance, what are maybe some of the, the simple 249 00:15:53,740 --> 00:15:57,510 use cases that they should focus on in their daily work? 250 00:16:00,010 --> 00:16:04,940 Of course, of course. And one of the major 251 00:16:04,950 --> 00:16:09,340 misunderstanding is to treat AI as a single tool that you can 252 00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:11,940 quickly master. Or you should do this in over 253 00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:15,240 the weekend or OK, let me spend one week doing this. 254 00:16:16,020 --> 00:16:19,090 And in reality is is it is an ecosystem. 255 00:16:19,870 --> 00:16:22,840 There's so many things when we say artificial intelligence, 256 00:16:22,850 --> 00:16:27,430 which is a bad, very bad name, by the way, but in in reality is 257 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,050 ecosystem. For example, it is machine 258 00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:31,230 learning. Yes, it is, but is big data. 259 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,450 It is cloud computing. It is Internet of Things, it is 260 00:16:35,460 --> 00:16:38,710 telecommunications. So many elements are there. 261 00:16:38,820 --> 00:16:43,980 So and now it's pre Co AI is magic dust. 262 00:16:43,990 --> 00:16:47,570 We sprinkle over fangs to say that it's technological. 263 00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:52,760 I can say that I have seen moments before with computer 264 00:16:52,850 --> 00:16:56,400 happen like this. I was in law school when 265 00:16:56,410 --> 00:17:00,240 computers got into the life of law professors and lawyers. 266 00:17:00,310 --> 00:17:04,400 They didn't know what to do with the time my I started teaching 267 00:17:04,490 --> 00:17:07,619 technology. When was it law school? 268 00:17:07,630 --> 00:17:10,990 Each time people either underestimate ohi don't need 269 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,109 that, You don't have to jump in this oh, wait, wait. 270 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:20,369 Or they think that they understood it too quickly, and 271 00:17:20,380 --> 00:17:24,130 it's even worse now because this one is more difficult. 272 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:30,070 So the real adjustment is more intellectual than of knowledge 273 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,840 itself. You have to stay open. 274 00:17:32,890 --> 00:17:38,270 You have to stay humble. We and the and and many people 275 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:43,150 are calling themselves AI specialists, but just remember 276 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,670 chapter was launched in 2022 November 2022. 277 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,830 So become a specialist so fast. It's not easy. 278 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,240 I don't say them a specialist and I have been this my first 279 00:17:54,250 --> 00:17:59,930 publication on AI was in 2019. So maybe having cheating this 280 00:17:59,940 --> 00:18:02,230 from 2004. Sometimes I still have to 281 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:03,970 because it doesn't never stops right? 282 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:11,460 So but stay open, stay humble. I have 3 practical uses 1st 1012 283 00:18:11,470 --> 00:18:16,340 hours, 15 hours. Try to try to to experiment with 284 00:18:16,350 --> 00:18:18,730 this because it's not a good tool that you can learn in an 285 00:18:18,740 --> 00:18:21,280 hour or two hours. Not it's it's worse than 286 00:18:21,290 --> 00:18:25,220 learning to drive a car, right? In many ways because have 287 00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:26,940 because also there's so many tools. 288 00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:31,520 Don't don't if you go to work strategies one way, so you have 289 00:18:31,530 --> 00:18:35,640 to spend time trying different things and seeing what it goes 290 00:18:35,970 --> 00:18:38,350 and you have to challenge a challenge, your reasoning. 291 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,660 You have to ask for trying alternatives ways. 292 00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:45,380 Don't just look for answers. That's the first thing I can 293 00:18:45,390 --> 00:18:48,960 think is use AI to structure your work. 294 00:18:49,250 --> 00:18:52,500 So you you treat AI like a assistant. 295 00:18:52,550 --> 00:18:58,220 OK, so that's the second one. And the third one would be work 296 00:18:58,230 --> 00:19:03,590 with context because it's no longer for just about using 297 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,580 clever prompts. In the past it was so I taught 298 00:19:08,590 --> 00:19:11,140 many courses in the prompt engineering. 299 00:19:11,490 --> 00:19:18,820 But now from 2005, 2626, now it is about giving better 300 00:19:18,830 --> 00:19:22,270 information and building better workflows. 301 00:19:22,940 --> 00:19:28,410 You build your library around, you have your information, AI 302 00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:35,060 tools get to know you and you, you, you get a better frame, 303 00:19:35,370 --> 00:19:38,120 what kind of output, what is good for you, You. 304 00:19:38,130 --> 00:19:42,260 You have your methods, but your methods also include providing 305 00:19:42,270 --> 00:19:46,490 better inputs. So and and also one important 306 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:48,650 thing, do not rely on a single tool. 307 00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:52,820 Please. No different system behave 308 00:19:52,830 --> 00:19:55,090 differently and that's part of the learning. 309 00:19:55,100 --> 00:19:59,290 You don't have to be team Chatterjee or Team Claw or or 310 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,290 change something because they can change a lot. 1 year ago, 311 00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:05,710 Jim and I was ridiculous. Now, I worked with this for many 312 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,480 things every day, and Claude was something extra. 313 00:20:10,490 --> 00:20:12,770 And now I that's my favorite, right? 314 00:20:13,460 --> 00:20:16,090 Such a cheese better is many things too. 315 00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:20,330 Depends on what you need, right? Amazing, fantastic. 316 00:20:20,340 --> 00:20:24,310 Well, thank you so much. And, and I'm curious now on more 317 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:29,260 of a somebody who's, you know, thinking about policy and, and 318 00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:31,550 working with in this intersection. 319 00:20:31,770 --> 00:20:35,920 I'm curious, how do you see AI changing the row of lawyers know 320 00:20:35,930 --> 00:20:40,270 both in the public ending the private sector over the next, 321 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,960 you know, 5-10 years. If just, you know, since Chachi 322 00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:48,200 has been launched, so much more is possible. 323 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,800 Even though there is a lot of people who do implement AI in 324 00:20:52,810 --> 00:20:55,900 their workflows. I don't know if you can say yes, 325 00:20:55,910 --> 00:20:58,960 that, you know, there is a change in the role that lawyers 326 00:20:58,970 --> 00:21:01,660 play or there is, you know, a substantial change in how the 327 00:21:01,670 --> 00:21:06,620 profession is practiced. Yeah, yeah, I have to avoid 328 00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:10,960 being very futurist here, even if I love it, because I'm a huge 329 00:21:11,050 --> 00:21:17,380 science fiction geek and who? Who I know no one that read more 330 00:21:17,390 --> 00:21:23,830 science fiction than me maybe. But I can say some things that I 331 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:30,040 think are the tendency anyway for, for example, in the public 332 00:21:30,050 --> 00:21:34,680 sector I that I know a little bit more because it was closer 333 00:21:34,690 --> 00:21:40,100 to them for a while. But also private sector AI 334 00:21:40,110 --> 00:21:45,830 changes where lawyers add value because much of the legal work 335 00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:50,130 involves what we call pattern recognition and law. 336 00:21:50,140 --> 00:21:54,030 We have many patterns and we have a lot of the hecks and the 337 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,190 stacks have many patterns. That's what lawyers do very 338 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,790 well. These are what we call 339 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,810 complicated problems. OK, Yeah, they're complicated of 340 00:22:02,820 --> 00:22:07,420 course, but it's structure. They are rule based and AI is 341 00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:11,970 very good at that. To to deal with this to you're 342 00:22:11,980 --> 00:22:14,160 going to treat information this way. 343 00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:19,730 If then this, if then this and AI is great for that. 344 00:22:20,930 --> 00:22:25,630 But The thing is, law also deals with complex problems, and 345 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,070 complex problems is another thing. 346 00:22:27,740 --> 00:22:31,830 It has to do with judgment, with values, with the certainty, 347 00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:37,220 competing interests, and for that there is no simple workflow 348 00:22:37,230 --> 00:22:42,240 for that. So what happens at Shift here? 349 00:22:42,510 --> 00:22:48,680 So AI can support the structured work, so lawyers can spend more 350 00:22:48,690 --> 00:22:50,850 time on the complex parts of the work. 351 00:22:51,850 --> 00:22:55,980 And in the for the public sector, you mentioning it is 352 00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:59,640 critical because decision affects rights and trust people. 353 00:22:59,910 --> 00:23:04,850 And in the private sector is also critical because many 354 00:23:04,860 --> 00:23:08,340 things we have to do, we deal with very competing interests as 355 00:23:08,350 --> 00:23:11,880 well and they can become very conflictive. 356 00:23:11,970 --> 00:23:15,440 So that's why also becoming remember the ethical part that 357 00:23:15,450 --> 00:23:19,140 is some more getting closer to lawyers than before. 358 00:23:19,230 --> 00:23:23,460 Yes, we can do more, but at one time one thing I need to leave 359 00:23:23,470 --> 00:23:28,720 it clear my for everyone it is that you're not going to work 360 00:23:28,730 --> 00:23:32,900 less. OK, so no technology came ever 361 00:23:32,970 --> 00:23:37,260 to help you toward less. Don't don't be hopeful you have 362 00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:39,180 extra hours in the day. Nope. 363 00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:43,060 You might get more productive, but yeah, performance, more 364 00:23:43,070 --> 00:23:45,530 performance would be expected from you. 365 00:23:45,610 --> 00:23:47,840 Yes. And if you are not using AI 366 00:23:47,850 --> 00:23:52,220 properly, you have to compete in the ones that are being guided 367 00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:55,320 in their performance enhanced. Look at the good sway, the 368 00:23:55,330 --> 00:24:01,230 boring many boring parts of the work can be sent to AI to help 369 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,100 you do right. And, and the role becomes less 370 00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:09,890 about processing information and more about responsibility and 371 00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:12,510 people. And lawyers are supposed to be 372 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:20,460 people who are good with people. So that's my hint for the very 373 00:24:20,470 --> 00:24:25,160 near future. Amazing, I really appreciate you 374 00:24:25,170 --> 00:24:28,720 bringing those up and and to wrap up today's conversation, 375 00:24:28,810 --> 00:24:32,480 you know, we're looking at now imagining, you know, young 376 00:24:32,490 --> 00:24:35,270 lawyers, early curb professionals, maybe people who 377 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,260 are knowing their trail. You're wrapping up law school. 378 00:24:38,330 --> 00:24:42,020 We're thinking about building that career in technology, law, 379 00:24:42,030 --> 00:24:44,940 AI, regulation. All of these intersections of 380 00:24:44,950 --> 00:24:48,180 law technology are really, you know, being able to use it to 381 00:24:48,190 --> 00:24:51,200 advance in their careers. What what skills should they 382 00:24:51,210 --> 00:24:53,760 prioritize right now? I love that you just said, you 383 00:24:53,770 --> 00:24:57,880 know, lawyers are supposed to be good with people, but what 384 00:24:57,890 --> 00:25:00,970 should they, you know, ignore despite the hype as well? 385 00:25:02,290 --> 00:25:09,640 OK, first, strong human skills, so so communication, judgment, 386 00:25:09,710 --> 00:25:14,370 working with people, right? Second, please keep reading or 387 00:25:14,380 --> 00:25:17,770 don't give U and reading and social media doesn't count as 388 00:25:17,780 --> 00:25:22,370 reading by the way. So not only do we go and and 389 00:25:22,380 --> 00:25:24,290 just legal tax, they don't count too. 390 00:25:24,350 --> 00:25:27,730 OK, you need to read out also outside of law. 391 00:25:27,820 --> 00:25:31,790 So of course I would recommend science fiction. 392 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,200 It helps you think about possible futures. 393 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:41,490 We we use future scenarios to discuss questions of today. 394 00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:46,610 So but The thing is, I when I came to choose a reference 395 00:25:46,660 --> 00:25:50,310 something you'd be between science fiction fantasy. 396 00:25:51,060 --> 00:25:56,030 So when I started law and technology, this scholarship was 397 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,410 like the Tatooine planet. You see, it was just a desert 398 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:05,090 with a few oases. 1 sage wise, well, wise men here and there 399 00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:10,950 saying strange things, you know, and and some young running free 400 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,780 and and doing stupid things. So anyways, now the field of law 401 00:26:15,790 --> 00:26:19,290 and technology seems more like Coruscant Chorus one. 402 00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:22,890 It is a plant city planet right there, said the capital of the 403 00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:26,260 Galaxy. The the, the, the public and the 404 00:26:26,940 --> 00:26:30,020 because this whole planet is a city, right? 405 00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:36,660 So you see, there's so many people, so many layers and and 406 00:26:36,670 --> 00:26:40,270 that's that's why not that many people, many fancy. 407 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:45,440 So one very strong thing about technology is that we treat law 408 00:26:45,450 --> 00:26:50,840 as risk management in many ways, OK, We are always talking about 409 00:26:50,850 --> 00:26:54,540 risk here with their things you need is an exercise of 410 00:26:54,550 --> 00:26:57,250 pessimism, OK, law and technology in many ways. 411 00:26:57,810 --> 00:27:00,270 And the European law is very good. 412 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,660 They even mention risk, levels of risk and AI, for example. 413 00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:08,090 And we have been working for this, but also in the last 10 414 00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:10,520 years having saying a lot about governance. 415 00:27:10,670 --> 00:27:14,640 This word is new in law many ways. 416 00:27:14,650 --> 00:27:18,740 In 15 years ago, we even say that some more often now it says 417 00:27:18,750 --> 00:27:21,410 all the time. Both are important, but they are 418 00:27:21,420 --> 00:27:27,880 not enough because the law for the classical approach of law, 419 00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:30,260 law was about conflict resolution. 420 00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:33,730 When we went to law school, for example, civil law, we were 421 00:27:33,740 --> 00:27:37,030 discussing this have a have a conflict, we need to solve it, 422 00:27:37,180 --> 00:27:39,590 but also maybe we can prevent it. 423 00:27:39,630 --> 00:27:43,620 But also see criminal law in other areas would say law as 424 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,750 social control. In many ways, law is also about 425 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,890 social control and how we can make people behave better in 426 00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:55,700 society. So many people in criminal law 427 00:27:55,710 --> 00:28:00,130 and constitutional law view talk about law as social solidarity. 428 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,930 We have this society want to make to work together. 429 00:28:03,940 --> 00:28:06,930 People should be happy and have full lives. 430 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:12,830 So we have to deal with this other perspective or but there's 431 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,880 so many inequalities. There's it is unfair in so many 432 00:28:17,890 --> 00:28:21,450 ways. Law is also about power 433 00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:24,680 relations with this. So there are many ways that we 434 00:28:24,690 --> 00:28:28,700 see law and if you're working in the corporate, working with 435 00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:32,700 companies and working with law and technology law, you see also 436 00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:37,340 need to see laws again, right. I cannot just try to regulate AI 437 00:28:37,410 --> 00:28:41,800 only with risk and governance when I when we know that law is 438 00:28:41,810 --> 00:28:44,730 so much more and has so many other pressures. 439 00:28:44,740 --> 00:28:51,190 So, uh, we, we, we cannot ignore that we cause if you reduce our 440 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,090 perspective, you miss what matters. 441 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:59,970 So the, the challenge is not simply to follow technology. 442 00:29:00,380 --> 00:29:05,350 It is try to to understand what it's doing to the way you 443 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,010 organize our society and what, when and where you want to go. 444 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:15,210 Want to just are we going just accept for, for example, right 445 00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:22,930 now that every near future movie it is this topic, it is every 446 00:29:22,940 --> 00:29:25,570 new. Do you know any near future 447 00:29:25,580 --> 00:29:30,390 movie that doesn't say there's something very apocalyptic in 448 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,780 the near future? We have done that in the near 449 00:29:35,790 --> 00:29:37,600 future. They didn't have lawyers 450 00:29:37,610 --> 00:29:40,080 anymore. So yeah, they're they're just 451 00:29:40,090 --> 00:29:45,440 the system was a was able to to detain and capture it and sent 452 00:29:45,450 --> 00:29:47,920 to prison for hours because they cut the large. 453 00:29:48,050 --> 00:29:51,610 I don't think that is a very optimistic way of thinking the 454 00:29:51,620 --> 00:29:54,860 future either. OK so I I don't think I want to 455 00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:59,520 see lawyers in the future too. So restart thinking about more 456 00:29:59,530 --> 00:30:04,400 positive ways of for about our future and that has to do with 457 00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:08,580 technology. By way to discuss this was using 458 00:30:08,590 --> 00:30:13,160 public policy and smart cities. Amazing. 459 00:30:13,170 --> 00:30:16,340 No, I really appreciate you making the time to come on the 460 00:30:16,350 --> 00:30:18,680 show to share a little bit about your perspective, you're 461 00:30:18,690 --> 00:30:23,060 experience and your advice. So thank you for for really 462 00:30:23,070 --> 00:30:24,620 making the time. I appreciate it. 463 00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:27,880 Christiano, thank you all for tuning into today's episode.