1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,600 is for you. Today I have the opportunity to 11 00:00:44,610 --> 00:00:48,300 interview Bindu Kuju. She has an incredible career. 12 00:00:48,310 --> 00:00:51,300 She brings over 25 years of experience across legal 13 00:00:51,310 --> 00:00:53,820 compliance and governance and operations. 14 00:00:53,930 --> 00:00:57,280 She's been a chief legal officer, general counsel and 15 00:00:57,290 --> 00:01:01,260 many other very, very interesting and distinct things 16 00:01:01,270 --> 00:01:03,960 in her career. She holds a B come from the 17 00:01:03,970 --> 00:01:07,220 University of Calgary and LB from the University of Toronto 18 00:01:07,510 --> 00:01:11,040 and has many, many incredible things to share with us today. 19 00:01:11,050 --> 00:01:13,570 Thank you so much for taking the time to be here today been. 20 00:01:14,110 --> 00:01:16,380 Thank you, Claudia. I'm super excited to join you 21 00:01:16,390 --> 00:01:17,670 today. Thanks for the opportunity. 22 00:01:18,230 --> 00:01:20,580 I appreciate it. And to start over conversation, 23 00:01:20,590 --> 00:01:23,490 I'd love for you to introduce yourself to your guests and tell 24 00:01:23,500 --> 00:01:26,680 us a little bit about who you are and you know what you do 25 00:01:26,690 --> 00:01:28,600 these days. Absolutely. 26 00:01:28,610 --> 00:01:30,840 Well, let me start with the most important things. 27 00:01:31,030 --> 00:01:34,320 I'm a mom. I've got 3 kids who are young 28 00:01:34,330 --> 00:01:36,320 adults as they frequently tell me. 29 00:01:36,450 --> 00:01:40,920 I'm a wife, I'm a a daughter and I also happen to be a lawyer who 30 00:01:40,930 --> 00:01:45,660 has worked in law firms, banks, and now I run my own 31 00:01:45,670 --> 00:01:48,790 consultancy. And I guess what drives me and 32 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,380 the common thread through all of that is I love to help people, 33 00:01:51,390 --> 00:01:54,260 so and I've been able to do it through a really rewarding 34 00:01:54,270 --> 00:01:57,000 career in law so far. Very, very fun. 35 00:01:57,010 --> 00:01:58,410 Thank you so much for sharing that. 36 00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:01,560 And then do we met at the GLM graduation. 37 00:02:01,610 --> 00:02:05,780 I remember that in your remarks you shared very many interesting 38 00:02:05,790 --> 00:02:08,039 things about, you know, leadership, curiosity. 39 00:02:08,090 --> 00:02:10,590 And I remember you mentioned a few of the books you're reading 40 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,850 at the time. So, if I may ask, what have you 41 00:02:13,860 --> 00:02:16,780 been reading lately? Well, thank you for asking and 42 00:02:16,790 --> 00:02:18,320 congratulations on your graduation. 43 00:02:18,330 --> 00:02:20,650 It was a really special moment to get to share with you and 44 00:02:20,660 --> 00:02:22,830 your classmates. I do love to read. 45 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,490 Sometimes it's just fiction and like a little frothy, but when I 46 00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:28,890 happened reading that I think might be interesting to your 47 00:02:28,900 --> 00:02:32,590 listeners are a couple of books. 1 is called Seeing around 48 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,810 corners. It's by an author named Rita 49 00:02:34,820 --> 00:02:39,270 McGrath, and it's sort of really kind of explores how business 50 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,850 people can kind of see around corners to hopefully avoid 51 00:02:42,860 --> 00:02:44,590 extinction. It's it's super interesting. 52 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,230 Another one that I'm reading is called The Catalyst. 53 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,850 It's by Jonah Berger, and I love it because as an advocate and a 54 00:02:51,860 --> 00:02:54,430 lawyer, you're often trying to change people's minds. 55 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,840 And so you're using advocacy in your words, you know, to sort of 56 00:02:57,850 --> 00:02:59,370 cause them to change their behavior. 57 00:02:59,380 --> 00:03:02,390 But he approaches it from a different angle or the reverse 58 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,190 angle, which is to sort of say, like, why won't somebody change 59 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,600 as opposed to trying to tell them to change, like what's 60 00:03:07,610 --> 00:03:09,520 holding them back? And so that's been really 61 00:03:09,530 --> 00:03:12,240 insightful for me is I think about that, but you know, as an 62 00:03:12,250 --> 00:03:15,900 advocate, but also as somebody who's like looking to find new 63 00:03:15,910 --> 00:03:17,600 clients. And then the third book that I'm 64 00:03:17,610 --> 00:03:20,860 reading, which I'm really, really enjoying is called How 65 00:03:20,870 --> 00:03:23,460 Big Things Get Done. And I'm going to mispronounce 66 00:03:23,470 --> 00:03:28,580 this gentleman's name, but it's by Bent Weiberg and Dan Gardner. 67 00:03:28,590 --> 00:03:31,510 And it's sort of just, it's one of those books that I love 68 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,620 because it sort of brings to light principles and how they 69 00:03:34,630 --> 00:03:37,060 can apply across your life. So, you know, how do you get a 70 00:03:37,070 --> 00:03:39,120 home renovation done? How do you get a big project 71 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,340 network? How do you get your taxes done? 72 00:03:41,350 --> 00:03:44,100 Like whatever it is. But it's sort of breaks it down 73 00:03:44,110 --> 00:03:46,120 and talks about some of the things that we do. 74 00:03:46,130 --> 00:03:49,160 So I always love books like that where I can kind of apply it in 75 00:03:49,170 --> 00:03:51,960 the world of work, but also in my home life. 76 00:03:51,970 --> 00:03:54,520 And then, you know, again, I try to share insights with my 77 00:03:54,530 --> 00:03:57,780 children who roll their eyes and ignore me and then just go back 78 00:03:57,790 --> 00:03:59,220 to doing whatever it is that they want. 79 00:03:59,490 --> 00:04:03,640 That's funny. I I I have a small baby daughter 80 00:04:03,650 --> 00:04:06,260 right now and it's always funny to hear a little bit about the 81 00:04:06,270 --> 00:04:09,320 stories of parenting and and the things that I don't need to 82 00:04:09,330 --> 00:04:13,760 worry about too much just yet. It's very well enjoy her. 83 00:04:13,810 --> 00:04:16,320 I'm sure she's a delight and you're learning from her 84 00:04:16,329 --> 00:04:18,560 everyday, just like you know, you kind of always keep 85 00:04:18,570 --> 00:04:20,740 learning, I think from the people around you, including 86 00:04:20,750 --> 00:04:24,070 your children. So, so Binder, going back and 87 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,970 digging a little bit more on your career aspect, you know, 88 00:04:26,980 --> 00:04:30,030 you're moving across many rows over the years from big law to 89 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,070 senior executive roles and now in the the advisory and board 90 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:35,630 work. I'd love to ask, you know, 91 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,870 looking back, what were a few of the moments are are decisions 92 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,550 that really shaped your path? Yeah, I've had a lot of time to 93 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,490 think about sort of the career trajectory. 94 00:04:45,500 --> 00:04:48,430 And there's, I will fully admit, there's moments where I wonder, 95 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:50,310 gosh, do I look like a flake like that? 96 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,030 I just couldn't really stick with anything. 97 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,850 But I'd like to reposition that. And I think what's driven so 98 00:04:55,860 --> 00:04:58,610 much change or what has driven me to take different 99 00:04:58,620 --> 00:05:00,970 opportunities and to pursue different opportunities is 100 00:05:00,980 --> 00:05:04,430 really just an interest, like being curious and wanting to try 101 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,050 out different things. And sometimes she's getting 102 00:05:07,060 --> 00:05:09,610 restless. I'm definitely not a master of 103 00:05:09,660 --> 00:05:11,500 of any of the things that I've done. 104 00:05:11,510 --> 00:05:16,000 But I feel like at some point I kind of learned a lot, a lot and 105 00:05:16,010 --> 00:05:17,730 enough. And then I kind of get curious 106 00:05:17,740 --> 00:05:21,490 about what I can do, you know, what more can I learn and how 107 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:23,390 can I, you know, extend my skills? 108 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,840 And so when I think about chemo moments or decisions, it's 109 00:05:27,890 --> 00:05:30,920 they've really been driven in many ways by like that time when 110 00:05:30,930 --> 00:05:34,580 I get to that restlessness right where I feel like, you know, 111 00:05:34,590 --> 00:05:37,690 what else is out there and what else could I be learning and how 112 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:39,780 could I keep growing? And when I follow those 113 00:05:39,790 --> 00:05:43,440 instincts, if they've largely turned out great, it sometimes 114 00:05:43,450 --> 00:05:45,810 doesn't seem like a logical choice to folks. 115 00:05:45,820 --> 00:05:48,620 I, I can tell you my parents wondered a few times about why I 116 00:05:48,630 --> 00:05:52,000 was like, you know, sort of pivoting from a good path that I 117 00:05:52,010 --> 00:05:54,020 was on. But and they haven't always 118 00:05:54,030 --> 00:05:55,720 worked out right. Like it hasn't always been a 119 00:05:55,730 --> 00:05:58,380 perfect road. And sometimes the thing that I 120 00:05:58,450 --> 00:06:02,580 chased after and got was maybe, maybe not ideally the greatest 121 00:06:02,590 --> 00:06:04,480 script for me, but I've always learned from it. 122 00:06:04,790 --> 00:06:07,360 And there's always another term that you can take, another 123 00:06:07,370 --> 00:06:11,250 choice that you can make it sort of I'm forever optimistic that 124 00:06:11,260 --> 00:06:13,900 there will continue to be great things ahead. 125 00:06:13,910 --> 00:06:16,980 And, and I think sometimes you don't make all of your luck, but 126 00:06:16,990 --> 00:06:20,860 I think you can certainly choose your attitude in in what you do. 127 00:06:22,450 --> 00:06:25,380 I can envision the listeners with a smile on their face as 128 00:06:25,390 --> 00:06:28,050 they, they listen to that love, love it. 129 00:06:28,390 --> 00:06:32,600 So you, you worked closely with boards as actives and teams in 130 00:06:32,610 --> 00:06:35,030 all kinds of situations. I can imagine. 131 00:06:35,090 --> 00:06:38,900 And I can imagine, you know, moments of, of pressure, moments 132 00:06:38,910 --> 00:06:42,400 of growth, all kinds of things. I was just telling you a little 133 00:06:42,410 --> 00:06:45,300 bit about the, the situation that I am, you know, where you 134 00:06:45,310 --> 00:06:48,180 know, a firm has acquired another. 135 00:06:48,190 --> 00:06:51,550 So there's a lot of like growing pains as well that come with 136 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,350 that process, right? Can be beautiful. 137 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,060 And can have all of that together. 138 00:06:55,170 --> 00:06:58,350 And I'm curious, you know, what have you learned going through 139 00:06:58,360 --> 00:06:59,930 these situations? And, and I think that's 140 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:02,300 something you highlighted, it's trust. 141 00:07:02,410 --> 00:07:04,820 So I wanted to ask you, you know, what have you learned 142 00:07:04,830 --> 00:07:08,570 about trust that tends to break trusting side organizations? 143 00:07:09,470 --> 00:07:13,160 Yeah, you know, it's, I think it's just at the core of it, 144 00:07:13,170 --> 00:07:18,780 it's just really bringing like a real empathetic sort of approach 145 00:07:18,790 --> 00:07:21,760 to the work that we do and, and the and the places that we're at 146 00:07:21,770 --> 00:07:23,350 and the people that we work with. 147 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,260 Ultimately, we're all human beings going through this life, 148 00:07:27,310 --> 00:07:29,900 whether it's your first time, if you or your, you know, maybe 149 00:07:29,910 --> 00:07:32,260 your second or whatever, depending on your your religious 150 00:07:32,450 --> 00:07:34,930 background or affiliation. But but we're all going through 151 00:07:34,940 --> 00:07:37,740 the slave and we don't always choose the change that happens 152 00:07:37,750 --> 00:07:40,310 to us. Sometimes it occurs to us and 153 00:07:40,530 --> 00:07:42,960 and it happens to us and sometimes we choose it. 154 00:07:42,970 --> 00:07:45,620 And you know, when you choose change, you sort of only focus 155 00:07:45,630 --> 00:07:47,940 on all the things that, you know, could be great about it 156 00:07:47,950 --> 00:07:50,380 and largely diminish the bad stuff. 157 00:07:50,430 --> 00:07:53,410 But often when change happens to you, you know, you end up 158 00:07:53,420 --> 00:07:56,690 focusing on things that could be difficult or negative. 159 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,890 And I think, you know, for me, as I've navigated like my own 160 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:05,490 career and, and, you know, sort of blending together my life, my 161 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:08,390 personal life and my personal aspirations, but also my 162 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,250 professional life, and then working in different 163 00:08:10,260 --> 00:08:12,710 environments with different people through different 164 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:14,690 situations. It always comes back down to 165 00:08:14,700 --> 00:08:18,190 kind of recognizing that there's a human in all of this, right? 166 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,670 That, you know, and that people are going to be sometimes 167 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,190 struggle with the change that's happening to them or to the 168 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,130 situation. They might be afraid, they might 169 00:08:26,140 --> 00:08:30,270 be, you know, scared they might actually be really excited about 170 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:31,810 it. Sometimes, you know, any 171 00:08:31,820 --> 00:08:35,260 strength over used can be, can be a a weakness. 172 00:08:35,270 --> 00:08:37,940 And so, you know, being overly excited about something can 173 00:08:37,950 --> 00:08:40,360 cause you to, can cause people to rush into something without 174 00:08:40,370 --> 00:08:43,750 maybe thinking about it. And so, you know, I would say 175 00:08:43,890 --> 00:08:47,920 through my career in different places and spaces, and I've 176 00:08:47,930 --> 00:08:50,220 played all of those roles. Sometimes I'm the person who's 177 00:08:50,230 --> 00:08:53,020 like, whoa, whoa, whoa, guys, we need to slow down a little bit 178 00:08:53,210 --> 00:08:56,380 and have some guardrails. So, you know, we, we know kind 179 00:08:56,390 --> 00:08:57,740 of the direction that we want to go. 180 00:08:57,790 --> 00:09:01,040 And sometimes I'm the catalyst in the room who's like, how 181 00:09:01,050 --> 00:09:02,760 like, we gotta go, we gotta go faster. 182 00:09:02,770 --> 00:09:04,920 We got to make a decision. We, we have to do that. 183 00:09:04,930 --> 00:09:09,160 And I think, you know, it's, it's, you know, trying to read 184 00:09:09,170 --> 00:09:12,300 the room, read the understand where people are coming from and 185 00:09:12,310 --> 00:09:14,250 taking an approach. And sometimes it's wrong and 186 00:09:14,260 --> 00:09:16,580 it's not going to land right. And so you have to recalibrate 187 00:09:16,590 --> 00:09:20,930 and guess have the humility to say I messed that up or like, 188 00:09:20,940 --> 00:09:24,650 let's try this again. And, and I find like most people 189 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,830 and are willing to, right. I mean, sometimes the stakes are 190 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,990 high and, you know, the risk feels high, But at the end of 191 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,350 the day, there's very few things I think, at least in my world 192 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,890 that can't be undone in some way, right? 193 00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:38,850 I, I mean, I'm not a brain surgeon. 194 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,150 I'm not, you know, I'm only a lawyer or I'm only an executive. 195 00:09:43,260 --> 00:09:45,730 But you know, I always sort of try to think about it through 196 00:09:45,740 --> 00:09:49,280 the shoes of, you know, the people that I'm working with are 197 00:09:49,290 --> 00:09:51,170 encountering, right? And how are they feeling about 198 00:09:51,180 --> 00:09:53,230 it? How can I make this a bit 199 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:54,530 simpler? Do I have knowledge? 200 00:09:54,540 --> 00:09:57,690 Do I have some skills? Do I have maybe a little extra 201 00:09:57,700 --> 00:10:00,590 courage or support that I can give them to help them get 202 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,080 through this phase? One thing that I've noticed and 203 00:10:03,090 --> 00:10:06,260 I've heard a little bit as I interview more and more lawyers 204 00:10:06,470 --> 00:10:09,680 who have, you know, gone through the route of, you know, being an 205 00:10:09,690 --> 00:10:13,300 early career associate going to mid level, going to senior. 206 00:10:13,310 --> 00:10:16,760 It sounds like quite a few of the lawyers struggle when there 207 00:10:16,770 --> 00:10:19,820 is this shift from being a technical expert and from, you 208 00:10:19,830 --> 00:10:23,420 know, actually executing the work to becoming a business 209 00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:27,980 partner to becoming a leader as well as a kind of your career 210 00:10:27,990 --> 00:10:29,680 grow. And you are kind of required to 211 00:10:29,690 --> 00:10:32,540 do that. So I'm curious for you and your 212 00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:35,840 personal journey, what helped helped you to make that 213 00:10:35,850 --> 00:10:40,320 transition and maybe what skills that really matter to you as you 214 00:10:40,330 --> 00:10:43,680 were going through that beyond just the legal knowledge? 215 00:10:43,990 --> 00:10:48,370 Yeah, well, I feel like for me, I wanted to start, I wanted to 216 00:10:48,380 --> 00:10:52,000 start my career in a law firm because I felt like becoming an 217 00:10:52,060 --> 00:10:56,270 expert and something was really, I think in some ways the end 218 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:57,730 goal. Like I was like, OK, once I 219 00:10:57,740 --> 00:11:01,500 become like an expert and in my universe that seemed like it 220 00:11:01,510 --> 00:11:03,860 would be to become a partner, but then I would know 221 00:11:03,870 --> 00:11:06,370 everything. And, you know, there you go, 222 00:11:06,940 --> 00:11:11,260 career, learning, all done. And I think what I found is in 223 00:11:11,270 --> 00:11:14,190 the firm is like there was no end of learning, which was 224 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,970 amazing. And the more senior I got, the 225 00:11:16,980 --> 00:11:19,950 more expensive I got, which then sort of drove me into sort of 226 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,450 being a narrower and narrower lawyer, which was amazing 227 00:11:23,460 --> 00:11:25,230 because I was really good at what I did. 228 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,220 And I got to like deal with like highly technical things around 229 00:11:29,230 --> 00:11:31,090 the specific area of work that I did. 230 00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:34,450 But what I also started to realize I was getting a bit 231 00:11:34,460 --> 00:11:38,030 restless about was to sort of look around the world and see 232 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,330 other people doing what seemed to be interesting things. 233 00:11:40,340 --> 00:11:43,570 And, and for me, that was like in house and learning different 234 00:11:43,580 --> 00:11:45,450 skills and utilizing different skills. 235 00:11:45,460 --> 00:11:49,110 And so it caused me to sort of wonder about, well, what about 236 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,390 that? Like maybe I've got like, I'm 237 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,380 interested in that and I think I've shown some skills in the 238 00:11:55,390 --> 00:11:57,590 place that I'm not. So maybe let's, let's try that 239 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,390 out. And so I think when I went in 240 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:04,490 house was for me where I really saw the, the possibility of what 241 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:07,500 one could do outside of legal advisory. 242 00:12:07,510 --> 00:12:10,710 Because of course, you know, I'm working very closely with my 243 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,540 colleagues, you know, stop thinking about them like 244 00:12:13,550 --> 00:12:15,950 clients, because we're all in this together, right? 245 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,540 We're part of the same organization. 246 00:12:17,550 --> 00:12:20,140 We're sort of subject to the same rules, But, you know, we 247 00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:22,820 also are building something together and we're working our 248 00:12:22,830 --> 00:12:25,820 way through challenges and new opportunities. 249 00:12:26,020 --> 00:12:29,620 And so, you know, I saw how different people were leading 250 00:12:29,630 --> 00:12:31,690 their teams. I was part of a team and I have 251 00:12:31,700 --> 00:12:35,020 an official manager and I saw how he managed me and what it 252 00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:38,740 was like to truly work with like a team as opposed to sort of 253 00:12:38,810 --> 00:12:41,370 what can happen in a law firm where it's a group of people 254 00:12:41,380 --> 00:12:43,880 working together on a common purpose, which is, I guess 255 00:12:43,890 --> 00:12:46,280 ultimately what a team means. But it just felt very different 256 00:12:46,290 --> 00:12:50,800 in in that corporate structure. And it for me, it was really 257 00:12:50,810 --> 00:12:53,200 exciting. And my first leadership 258 00:12:53,210 --> 00:12:57,170 opportunity was one where I really had to shift, you know, I 259 00:12:57,180 --> 00:13:01,490 had, I lost felt like I lacked in a bit of confidence because I 260 00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:04,770 had really had to shift away from being like an expert in the 261 00:13:04,780 --> 00:13:08,390 thing that I've been doing for years and years and years to 262 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,010 embracing the leadership opportunity, which is not a 263 00:13:12,020 --> 00:13:13,740 thing you can do off the side of your task. 264 00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:17,130 Like it takes deliberate effort and it takes it takes work and 265 00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:20,510 it has a lot of contingencies and unexpected things that 266 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,330 happen along the way. But I, you know, my first 267 00:13:23,340 --> 00:13:26,470 leadership opportunity was to lead a team of lawyers. 268 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,550 And I knew the work that some of them did, but I didn't know all 269 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:32,630 the work that they did. I didn't have the legal 270 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:37,370 expertise, which I had been sort of been confident with for so 271 00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:39,780 long. And so to step into leadership 272 00:13:39,870 --> 00:13:42,420 and to, you know, I had to really think about what did I 273 00:13:42,430 --> 00:13:45,840 bring to the table and how can I offer that in a way that like 274 00:13:45,850 --> 00:13:50,660 recognizes the expertise and the experience of my new team in 275 00:13:50,670 --> 00:13:53,230 areas that I didn't have it? And like, what could I bring? 276 00:13:53,290 --> 00:13:55,000 What was I offering along the way? 277 00:13:55,010 --> 00:13:59,400 And so I think, you know, learning to be curious, learning 278 00:13:59,410 --> 00:14:02,840 to ask questions, to learn and to like being empathetic, but 279 00:14:02,850 --> 00:14:06,560 also like being humble and have exercise in humility and showing 280 00:14:06,570 --> 00:14:09,940 that to folks because, you know, that that was part of it. 281 00:14:10,010 --> 00:14:13,300 But I also think that that exercise helped me relate a lot 282 00:14:13,310 --> 00:14:16,220 more to my business colleagues outside of the legal department. 283 00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:19,460 Because, you know, oftentimes business folks can be really, 284 00:14:19,470 --> 00:14:22,660 and our clients can be really nervous about talking to lawyers 285 00:14:22,670 --> 00:14:26,080 because we have this knowledge and this expertise and maybe a 286 00:14:26,090 --> 00:14:28,720 confidence around these matters. And it might be their first 287 00:14:28,730 --> 00:14:31,560 time, or it could be something that they're really 288 00:14:31,570 --> 00:14:35,470 uncomfortable with, or it's new or it's bad usually, you know. 289 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,750 And so how, you know, to sort of be able to kind of approach even 290 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,690 my team and the work that they did with the sort of curiosity 291 00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:45,810 and interest to ask the questions, to ask the dumb 292 00:14:45,820 --> 00:14:50,270 questions, to explore things with them to ask, you know, why 293 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,040 are we doing it this way? You know, I could really, I 294 00:14:53,050 --> 00:14:56,430 think I found a way to really relate to my business colleagues 295 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,550 and sometimes ask the questions that maybe they were intimidated 296 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,350 to ask because I could, right? I had nothing to lose by asking. 297 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,910 Well, maybe a little bit of perspective, my team, but you 298 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,770 know, then we turned up to, you know, then they can see the 299 00:15:08,780 --> 00:15:11,250 other things that I'm good at doing, which is relationship 300 00:15:11,260 --> 00:15:14,770 building and perhaps, you know, bridging advice in a way that 301 00:15:15,060 --> 00:15:17,060 they could deliver the pure legal answer. 302 00:15:17,140 --> 00:15:20,410 Maybe, maybe together we could deliver it in a way that could 303 00:15:20,420 --> 00:15:23,830 be really consumed by our colleagues and have them 304 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,770 understand it and really own it and and really be able to. 305 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:29,560 Thank you so much for sharing those. 306 00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:33,320 As I was preparing for this podcast today, I I did a little 307 00:15:33,330 --> 00:15:36,140 bit of research on on your story and a little bit of your career. 308 00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:38,980 And it was it was just incredible to to see all that 309 00:15:38,990 --> 00:15:42,160 you've done. And I saw that you've held rows 310 00:15:42,170 --> 00:15:45,760 that seated at the intersection of law, governance, risk, 311 00:15:45,770 --> 00:15:49,380 culture. So all of that together. 312 00:15:49,390 --> 00:15:54,040 I was curious, you know, you said that you first had this go 313 00:15:54,050 --> 00:15:58,260 of maybe becoming a specialist or, you know, being a pop of the 314 00:15:58,270 --> 00:16:03,460 chain of wherever you were here is from looking backwards now in 315 00:16:03,470 --> 00:16:05,680 in another way. What are some ways that you 316 00:16:05,690 --> 00:16:10,320 think that lawyers young in their career are are starting 317 00:16:10,330 --> 00:16:14,200 out in their career can really add some more value to, you 318 00:16:14,210 --> 00:16:17,700 know, the strategy table or or even should the day-to-day 319 00:16:17,710 --> 00:16:21,860 interactions at at times it's hard to see how young in your 320 00:16:21,870 --> 00:16:25,300 career you can add, even though you know, each person has such 321 00:16:25,310 --> 00:16:28,460 an incredible life story and and how they got there is just 322 00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:31,120 incredible on its own. I'm curious to hear some of your 323 00:16:31,130 --> 00:16:34,120 thoughts on that. Yeah, that's a great question 324 00:16:34,130 --> 00:16:37,860 and it's one that I get asked a lot. 325 00:16:37,870 --> 00:16:41,310 And I, I think, you know, particularly for those folks who 326 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,940 are in law firms, they can be very hierarchical places. 327 00:16:43,950 --> 00:16:46,880 And, and you know, you can feel like, OK, I'm starting as an 328 00:16:46,890 --> 00:16:49,240 articling student or I'm starting as a, you know, an 329 00:16:49,250 --> 00:16:52,150 associate. And, and my role is to do, you 330 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,220 know, this in, in a square box and I'm to do the research and 331 00:16:55,230 --> 00:16:58,050 I'm to do the first drafts. And, you know, here, this is the 332 00:16:58,060 --> 00:17:02,040 limit of what I can do. I think showing leadership is 333 00:17:02,090 --> 00:17:06,170 somebody expressed it to me early on in my career is sort of 334 00:17:06,180 --> 00:17:08,800 working to perform the job that's ahead of you, right. 335 00:17:08,810 --> 00:17:13,050 So to sort of not to step into people's toes, but really like 336 00:17:13,089 --> 00:17:16,410 showing an interest and showing the predilection, like showing 337 00:17:16,420 --> 00:17:20,210 that you're moving towards being able to do that next level role. 338 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,950 So whether that's, you know, you as the associate, you know, sort 339 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,770 of showing an interest in all of the different components of what 340 00:17:27,780 --> 00:17:31,670 like a partner in your firm may be doing like it not just 341 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,620 knowing the law, but like how does the business piece work 342 00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:36,440 with that? And how do Billings work and how 343 00:17:36,450 --> 00:17:39,490 do they relate talk to clients and how do they do business 344 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:42,120 development and sort of being brought into that? 345 00:17:42,130 --> 00:17:44,790 And sometimes you have to ask, sometimes, you know, you might 346 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,730 have a partner who will bring you along and sometimes you 347 00:17:47,740 --> 00:17:50,030 might have somebody who doesn't want to bring you along either, 348 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:51,450 right? They may not be interested in 349 00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:54,350 sharing that with you. So if it's not, then maybe look 350 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:56,950 for somebody else. Maybe you as a group of 351 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,290 associates can talk together about like what you're learning 352 00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:04,160 and share knowledge as peers. You know, I think leadership is, 353 00:18:04,210 --> 00:18:08,360 is about paying it forward. And so, you know, you, you might 354 00:18:08,370 --> 00:18:11,980 be the, the, the bottom rung of the ladder for a while that at 355 00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:13,860 some point there's probably going to be somebody in a 356 00:18:13,870 --> 00:18:17,300 different role, maybe a more junior role to you or maybe a 357 00:18:17,310 --> 00:18:20,840 pure roller and some other area where you can, you know, share 358 00:18:20,850 --> 00:18:23,890 your knowledge and grow. I also think outside of the 359 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:27,880 workplace, there's opportunities for you to show some leadership. 360 00:18:27,890 --> 00:18:31,600 Probably one of the things I did really early, maybe even a bit 361 00:18:31,610 --> 00:18:35,340 too early in some ways, was I joined a board right when I was, 362 00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:39,540 I think a third or fourth year associate and I felt very like, 363 00:18:39,690 --> 00:18:42,520 what am I doing here? I really, I mean, I know I'm a 364 00:18:42,530 --> 00:18:45,220 lawyer, but I'm like terrified that anybody on the board might 365 00:18:45,230 --> 00:18:47,940 ask me a actually sort of legally oriented because I've 366 00:18:47,950 --> 00:18:49,460 only been practicing for three years. 367 00:18:49,470 --> 00:18:53,120 But it also really helped me understand what my training and 368 00:18:53,130 --> 00:18:57,590 my education, how that allowed for me to like add perspective, 369 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,930 to give a point of view, to think critically about some of 370 00:19:00,940 --> 00:19:03,310 the things or just to bring a different perspective to the 371 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,200 matters before the board. And I really learned a lot about 372 00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:10,380 I think I gained some confidence in what I could offer. 373 00:19:10,430 --> 00:19:13,420 I learned so much from my fellow board members, which, you know, 374 00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:16,510 we occupying a different space together. 375 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,350 We weren't doing the same kind of work. 376 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:21,090 We have this common purpose in this organization that we were 377 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,370 there for. And I just think it was it was 378 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,550 it was a real game changer for me thinking about the way that I 379 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,200 could contribute to an organization in different ways. 380 00:19:30,260 --> 00:19:33,010 It was also a place for me to practice some skills that I 381 00:19:33,020 --> 00:19:38,030 didn't necessarily have chances to do when in my day-to-day, 382 00:19:38,090 --> 00:19:40,710 like work practice, right? So, you know, chairing a 383 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,290 meeting, taking the minutes for it, like watching, you know, how 384 00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:47,410 the chair of the board or particular chair of the 385 00:19:47,420 --> 00:19:50,150 committee was running things. And then like really learning 386 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,330 from their example and then later to step into that, into 387 00:19:53,340 --> 00:19:56,370 those shoes to become like a committee chair and doing the 388 00:19:56,380 --> 00:19:58,410 work there. So, you know, I think there's 389 00:19:58,420 --> 00:20:00,720 sometimes, we sometimes think that the only place we can 390 00:20:00,730 --> 00:20:04,800 demonstrate leadership or the most logical place to do it is 391 00:20:04,850 --> 00:20:07,380 to do it in the workplace. You don't always have 392 00:20:07,390 --> 00:20:09,280 opportunities. Maybe maybe you do. 393 00:20:09,290 --> 00:20:10,980 Maybe you can create them for yourself. 394 00:20:10,990 --> 00:20:12,760 You don't have to wait for them to exist. 395 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,050 But you can also find other places to show leadership and to 396 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:20,150 practice those skills. And I always sort of joke, but, 397 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,750 you know, my first true opportunities to really run big 398 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,310 meetings was I was involved. I was the chair of like my kids 399 00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:29,850 school council, like the parent council. 400 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,690 And those were like the most fraught meetings. 401 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:36,820 Like even since like 20 years later, we're still like some of 402 00:20:36,830 --> 00:20:40,200 the worst meetings I've ever been in because there's nobody 403 00:20:40,210 --> 00:20:44,170 like, you know, a ferocious parent who's really upset about 404 00:20:44,180 --> 00:20:45,810 something and trying to deal with that. 405 00:20:45,820 --> 00:20:47,420 It worked. Just seems like, oh, this is 406 00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:49,320 just work. We're all quite rational actors 407 00:20:49,330 --> 00:20:52,130 when it comes to this, but when it comes to our kids, less so. 408 00:20:52,140 --> 00:20:55,510 So, you know, I think about the experience that I gained from 409 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,810 working through and having to kind of lead a group through 410 00:20:58,820 --> 00:21:02,100 really contentious issues. I think about those skills and 411 00:21:02,110 --> 00:21:04,750 you know, where I didn't do it right and and where I had to 412 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,240 learn to do better the next time and who was there to support me 413 00:21:08,250 --> 00:21:11,130 and like offer me some coaching and guidance and how I could do 414 00:21:11,140 --> 00:21:12,490 better. So then when I actually went 415 00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:15,370 into like, you know, sharing a workplace meeting of some sort 416 00:21:15,380 --> 00:21:17,820 of like this is easy. We're all rational actors here. 417 00:21:17,830 --> 00:21:20,230 This is just our work. ANYWAYS, it's so, you know, 418 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,550 getting practice in places maybe where it's a bit safer can be a 419 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,550 great way. And anyways, I think there's 420 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,350 lots of ways we can show leadership just to go to the 421 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:30,920 point of like creating an opportunity for yourself. 422 00:21:30,990 --> 00:21:34,030 So one of the things I did when I was a junior associate or I 423 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,710 guess a mid level associate is wanted to create like a bit of a 424 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,130 learning series for all of the other associates in the 425 00:21:41,140 --> 00:21:42,830 financial services group that I was in. 426 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,450 So I was probably a little bit more on the senior side, but 427 00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:48,090 there were some ahead of me and there was definitely lots more 428 00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:49,910 juniors than there were articling students who would 429 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,940 come through. And so I kind of came up with 430 00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:55,560 this little idea and I pitched it to management and they were 431 00:21:55,570 --> 00:21:58,240 like, sure, if you want to do it, it seems like a lot of work, 432 00:21:58,250 --> 00:21:59,870 but if you want to do it, I'm like, sure. 433 00:21:59,940 --> 00:22:03,010 And so I invited each of the partners in the group to sign up 434 00:22:03,020 --> 00:22:06,230 for like a lunch session with one month. 435 00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:09,440 And you know, the firm supported paying for some pizza. 436 00:22:09,450 --> 00:22:12,410 And I said, here's your topic and you don't have to prepare 437 00:22:12,420 --> 00:22:14,790 for it. Just come and talk to us about 438 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,930 credit agreements or security documents. 439 00:22:16,940 --> 00:22:19,330 I mean, they're partners. They know the stuff inside out. 440 00:22:19,410 --> 00:22:21,210 So just share some of your knowledge. 441 00:22:21,260 --> 00:22:24,710 And, you know, the first couple were it was a little hesitant to 442 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,130 get them to come, But then after that, it was just this amazing 443 00:22:27,140 --> 00:22:31,010 opportunity for them to showcase their knowledge for, you know, 444 00:22:31,020 --> 00:22:33,770 my colleagues and me to learn more and to be able to ask 445 00:22:33,780 --> 00:22:36,240 questions in live time, not in the middle of a transaction 446 00:22:36,250 --> 00:22:39,150 where we might, you know, there was no time to be able to ask 447 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,070 these questions or to, you know, sort of get into the minutia of 448 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,870 at all. But it was a little bit more of 449 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,150 a relaxed moment. And yeah, so I, it was an 450 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,480 opportunity for me to show like a bigger picture thinking of 451 00:22:50,490 --> 00:22:54,080 like, OK, I think this could be really, really beneficial to me. 452 00:22:54,090 --> 00:22:56,870 It was selfishly driven, but also to my colleagues. 453 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,290 And I think it created a nice sense of community for us too. 454 00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:04,110 So you can always create those opportunities for yourself if 455 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:06,530 you're so inclined. I love to hear that. 456 00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:09,710 Really. Really appreciate it and I can 457 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,880 tell that mentoring, the community work, teaching, all of 458 00:23:13,890 --> 00:23:16,930 that, looking from the outside at least, seems to be very much 459 00:23:16,940 --> 00:23:19,790 part of your personality, part of who you are, part of your 460 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,230 values, and part of something that you really strives to do a 461 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,810 lot throughout your career, even at senior levels. 462 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,270 So I wanted to ask you, you know, why has this part of your 463 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,810 career stayed important to you and and what kind of role did 464 00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:39,450 mentoring, both on the receiving and on the giving end played in 465 00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:44,130 your professional life? I have been the beneficiary of 466 00:23:44,140 --> 00:23:45,890 some great mentoring along the way. 467 00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:49,490 I can think of so many pivotal moments in my life and the 468 00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:52,070 people who were around me, sometimes they were close to me. 469 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,430 Sometimes they just, you know, maybe was a bit happenstance and 470 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,340 circumstantial and, and who I happen to find in a moment. 471 00:23:58,350 --> 00:24:01,850 But I'm definitely sort of an experiential learner and I learn 472 00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:04,860 a lot from hearing people's stories and like getting to have 473 00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:07,080 those conversations. When I think about really 474 00:24:07,090 --> 00:24:09,490 important moments in my life, there were always mentors. 475 00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:12,070 There were always coaches. I've engaged in professional 476 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,450 coaching and in that, like I've hired coaches to help me through 477 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:19,100 transitions and new jobs or new opportunities and tough times. 478 00:24:19,110 --> 00:24:22,450 Sometimes I do a lot of coaching for people now as part of my 479 00:24:22,460 --> 00:24:25,350 advisory practice, but you know, sort of always more informally 480 00:24:25,530 --> 00:24:28,560 white benefited from it and I've always tried to pay it forward. 481 00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:33,360 And I think candidly as well, like being a South Asian woman 482 00:24:33,370 --> 00:24:36,660 who's been, you know, have the kind of success that I've had to 483 00:24:36,670 --> 00:24:39,200 date and so far and I'm very grateful for. 484 00:24:39,210 --> 00:24:43,160 But having that kind of success isn't all that usual in the 485 00:24:43,170 --> 00:24:47,140 Canadian legal marketplace. And so I take, you know, sort of 486 00:24:47,150 --> 00:24:51,320 the privilege of being able to have that experience and wanting 487 00:24:51,330 --> 00:24:54,460 to kind of pave the path and make it a little bit easier for 488 00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:57,260 somebody else, maybe just to even be encouraging. 489 00:24:57,330 --> 00:24:59,120 I can't always clear barriers for everybody. 490 00:24:59,130 --> 00:25:02,140 I think I've knocked a few out of the way just in in my 491 00:25:02,150 --> 00:25:06,200 progress through my career, but just thinking about ways to kind 492 00:25:06,210 --> 00:25:08,390 of encourage and support people where. 493 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,450 Maybe they're, they're scared and maybe they just need a 494 00:25:11,460 --> 00:25:14,850 little encouragement to help them think through like what is 495 00:25:14,860 --> 00:25:17,740 the worst thing that could happen if if you took this path 496 00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:20,590 or if you asked for this opportunity or if you went this 497 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,630 way and just kind of working our way through it. 498 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,980 I think sometimes, especially for lawyers, you know, we're 499 00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:31,270 rewarded from law school itself on our ability to catastrophize, 500 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,550 right, To think about the worst case scenario. 501 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,090 And if you let that consume your personal life, it can really 502 00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:40,770 stop you from pursuing maybe things that you want. 503 00:25:40,780 --> 00:25:44,110 And frankly, I think some joy and some fun. 504 00:25:44,300 --> 00:25:48,450 And so, you know, it's a, it's a great skill to have, but you 505 00:25:48,460 --> 00:25:50,590 kind of need to know when you need to turn it down a little 506 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,820 bit and allow for yourself to kind of, you know, take 507 00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:55,860 advantage of the things that are there. 508 00:25:56,090 --> 00:25:59,480 So I think for me, mentoring, coaching, teaching, teaching, I 509 00:25:59,490 --> 00:26:02,960 think it's just a great way to know, to test yourself on what 510 00:26:02,970 --> 00:26:06,000 it is that you know, and how can you explain the things that you 511 00:26:06,010 --> 00:26:09,720 know in ways that are really accessible for whoever it is 512 00:26:09,730 --> 00:26:12,020 that you're teaching it to you? I do it with clients. 513 00:26:12,030 --> 00:26:14,500 I do it, you know, with colleagues. 514 00:26:14,510 --> 00:26:17,400 I, you know, do it upwards. I do downwards because there's 515 00:26:17,410 --> 00:26:20,960 concepts that are familiar to me or that I just learned about and 516 00:26:20,970 --> 00:26:23,160 that I, you know, have to all explain to somebody. 517 00:26:23,170 --> 00:26:25,950 And so, you know, the teaching piece has been something that's 518 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,820 always, you know, driven me. And I've used education as sort 519 00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:32,600 of a theme throughout my life as like, how can I teach you 520 00:26:32,610 --> 00:26:34,960 forward and how can we bring more people in? 521 00:26:35,030 --> 00:26:38,320 I think, well, just power. And so I, and I don't believe it 522 00:26:38,330 --> 00:26:39,900 should be contained to a small group. 523 00:26:39,910 --> 00:26:41,840 So I like to democratize it and teaching. 524 00:26:41,850 --> 00:26:43,640 It's important. And then on the coaching and 525 00:26:43,650 --> 00:26:46,300 mentoring piece, like sometimes you're just going to somebody 526 00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:48,520 will just encounter you in a moment in their life when they 527 00:26:48,530 --> 00:26:51,500 need you to. They need somebody to like share 528 00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:54,620 a different perspective who's not a family member or friend or 529 00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:58,310 a spouse or who might not a parent or whatever, but they 530 00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:59,860 just need to, to talk to somebody. 531 00:26:59,870 --> 00:27:03,070 And, and, you know, I don't think I ever really did it in 532 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,420 the hopes that somebody like that they would thank me for it 533 00:27:06,430 --> 00:27:09,300 or that I would repay it. But I received a lot of that 534 00:27:09,310 --> 00:27:11,760 kind of coaching and support and mentoring along the way. 535 00:27:11,770 --> 00:27:13,240 And so I just want to pay it forward. 536 00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:16,850 And it really does warm my heart when I meet people who are 537 00:27:16,860 --> 00:27:20,070 really senior and like, they're saying things to me like you 538 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,740 were my teacher. Do you remember you met me when 539 00:27:22,750 --> 00:27:25,510 I was like a student in during the interviews? 540 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:26,880 And I'm just like, oh, my goodness. 541 00:27:26,890 --> 00:27:31,210 I ended up retaining a firm and the lawyer on it with somebody 542 00:27:31,220 --> 00:27:34,340 who was in like a law school class that I taught like 12 543 00:27:34,350 --> 00:27:35,840 years ago. And now she's a partner at the 544 00:27:35,850 --> 00:27:38,930 firm. And I was just like, whoa, what 545 00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:41,450 has happened? But it was very cool though, and 546 00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:43,730 she remembered me and I actually did remember her. 547 00:27:43,740 --> 00:27:45,870 So it was really nice to have that complete circle. 548 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,290 Fantastic. And I really appreciate you 549 00:27:48,300 --> 00:27:52,670 taking the time to share those very, very endearing examples. 550 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,730 And so as we as we get to the end of our podcast tonight, I 551 00:27:55,740 --> 00:27:58,770 wanted to ask you what kind of advice would you give to an 552 00:27:58,780 --> 00:28:02,670 early career professional just starting out on the profession 553 00:28:02,740 --> 00:28:07,090 or an internationally trained lawyer who's just continuing now 554 00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,890 their career here in Canada and trying to find their place? 555 00:28:11,370 --> 00:28:14,820 I think both early career professionals and 556 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,680 internationally trained lawyers find themselves in sort of a 557 00:28:18,690 --> 00:28:21,700 similar place, right? You're trying to break into 558 00:28:21,710 --> 00:28:24,260 something, whether you've already been practicing for 559 00:28:24,270 --> 00:28:27,590 years or maybe a few years, or you're new to it, you're trying 560 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,360 to break into a world that sometimes can feel very closed 561 00:28:31,370 --> 00:28:35,260 off. So I would say, you know, have 562 00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:39,380 have be relentless about it. I mean, not obnoxious, but 563 00:28:39,390 --> 00:28:42,530 relentless, like keep trying, keep going, find your way to 564 00:28:42,540 --> 00:28:45,800 keep motivated, whether that's keeping track of like, you know, 565 00:28:45,810 --> 00:28:48,400 every place that you've applied to you and the responses that 566 00:28:48,410 --> 00:28:50,390 you've had. If they're not, you know, but 567 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,200 like just keep, keep at it and find different ways to keep 568 00:28:54,210 --> 00:28:58,140 yourself engaged and to be meeting people and, you know, 569 00:28:58,150 --> 00:29:00,450 just to be curious and to keep learning about things. 570 00:29:00,510 --> 00:29:03,200 I don't think you need to go out and get new certificates and 571 00:29:03,210 --> 00:29:04,890 degrees. That's not the kind of learning 572 00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:07,750 that I'm talking about. I think it is being present in 573 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,740 our world, reading about interesting things that capture 574 00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:14,180 your interest. Maybe maybe going a little bit 575 00:29:14,190 --> 00:29:16,520 down the rabbit hole and thinking about how it applies to 576 00:29:16,530 --> 00:29:20,230 what, what, you know, I think all of us, whether we're, you 577 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,230 know, early in our, a new brand new lawyer or a brand new lawyer 578 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,330 in Canada, we all bring a wealth of experiences behind us, 579 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,210 academic, personal, experiential, all of those 580 00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:35,630 pieces really make, you know, have a lot, give us a lot to 581 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,370 offer. And so I would say, you know, 582 00:29:38,380 --> 00:29:42,130 just like keep putting it out there and keep expanding what 583 00:29:42,140 --> 00:29:45,830 you have to offer. And, and it'll click like I, I 584 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,910 truly, truly believe that sometimes in unexpected ways, 585 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,170 But I'd say just, you know, keep optimistic, keep positive, and 586 00:29:52,180 --> 00:29:57,420 always be interested in kind of improving yourself through the 587 00:29:57,430 --> 00:30:00,490 work that you do and the opportunities that you create 588 00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:02,020 for yourself and the things that you learn. 589 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,800 Amazing It's been such a pleasure to to learn from you 590 00:30:05,810 --> 00:30:07,980 and to share this conversation with you. 591 00:30:08,030 --> 00:30:10,520 Thank you so much for for being in the podcast today. 592 00:30:10,530 --> 00:30:12,540 Been doing. Thank you so much, Claudio. 593 00:30:12,550 --> 00:30:15,740 I this is such a great thing that you're doing and I was 594 00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:17,530 really pleased to be part of it. So thank you for the 595 00:30:17,540 --> 00:30:20,110 opportunity. Absolutely, and thank you all 596 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,560 for tuning into today's episode.