1 00:00:12,870 --> 00:00:14,860 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,860 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,870 --> 00:00:20,840 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,850 --> 00:00:24,740 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:26,420 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,430 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,259 that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study 8 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:35,520 abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:39,640 curious about how law works around the world, this podcast 10 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:44,800 is for you. Today I have the opportunity to 11 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,990 be speaking with Lamic Cathala. Thank you so much for taking the 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,430 time to be in the podcast today and to share a few of your 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:52,870 thoughts. I appreciate it. 14 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,560 Well, Claudio, thank you so much for having me here. 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,410 Likewise, I really appreciate you taking the time and should 16 00:01:00,420 --> 00:01:02,780 take this opportunity. For our listeners who are, you 17 00:01:02,790 --> 00:01:05,810 know, listening to you for the first time, I want to ask you if 18 00:01:05,820 --> 00:01:09,130 you could introduce yourself and share a little bit about who you 19 00:01:09,140 --> 00:01:12,230 are and what you do these days. Absolutely. 20 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,210 Yeah. If I ever ramble on Claudio, 21 00:01:14,220 --> 00:01:17,610 please let me know. But to to make a Long story 22 00:01:17,620 --> 00:01:19,510 short, and my name is Lamic Falam. 23 00:01:19,740 --> 00:01:24,850 I'm a recruitment consultant for for Smith Legal Search and as as 24 00:01:24,860 --> 00:01:30,200 a way of a brief TV if you will. I went to law school at the 25 00:01:30,210 --> 00:01:33,980 University of Ottawa. Soon after I simmered an article 26 00:01:33,990 --> 00:01:38,130 that Lutra Nexen, which was a lovely experience. 27 00:01:38,140 --> 00:01:42,090 And following that I, I worked at a legal tech startup doing a 28 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:45,310 lot of commercial contracting or fast agreements and everything 29 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:46,410 in between. And yeah. 30 00:01:46,420 --> 00:01:50,510 And at some point I decided to, to make that switch over into 31 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,090 recruitment land. And it's, it's been 2 years 32 00:01:53,100 --> 00:01:55,800 since and it's been, it's been a lot of fun, made a lot of 33 00:01:55,810 --> 00:01:58,960 friends along the way. Oh, that's amazing. 34 00:01:58,970 --> 00:02:02,230 Very, very excited to just speak with you a little bit about, you 35 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,480 know, the Toronto market and, and what it means to be, you 36 00:02:05,490 --> 00:02:09,780 know, a legal consultant. So yeah, you just said, you 37 00:02:09,789 --> 00:02:12,180 know, moving from practicing law to recruitment. 38 00:02:12,250 --> 00:02:15,880 If I may ask you, you know a little bit of what prompted that 39 00:02:15,890 --> 00:02:19,820 shift and maybe what strengths from practice you believe that 40 00:02:19,830 --> 00:02:22,060 help you serve your candidates and clients right now? 41 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,090 Absolutely. So it, it, it's funny, it's 42 00:02:26,100 --> 00:02:28,130 multifaceted. A little bit of, of, of how I 43 00:02:28,140 --> 00:02:32,610 landed into recruitment. I will say it, it started, it 44 00:02:32,620 --> 00:02:35,740 started during the OC. I process at least my interest 45 00:02:35,750 --> 00:02:39,140 will speak then, you know, as you get this, you go through 46 00:02:39,150 --> 00:02:42,050 networking and get to know some of the, the student recruiters 47 00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:46,130 from these different firms. I, I found myself connecting 48 00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:48,660 very well with them And, and I just found their position quite 49 00:02:48,670 --> 00:02:52,560 fascinating, as most of them are aware or are still practicing 50 00:02:52,570 --> 00:02:55,340 lawyers. And so I began inquiring just on 51 00:02:55,350 --> 00:02:58,280 a high level basis and sort of they said to me, you know, you 52 00:02:58,290 --> 00:03:00,560 practice for a few years and then you sort of like revisit 53 00:03:00,570 --> 00:03:02,800 that conversation then. And, and I said, well, no 54 00:03:02,810 --> 00:03:04,820 problem. So I was very interested and 55 00:03:04,830 --> 00:03:08,060 intrigued from the, the internal side of recruitment initially. 56 00:03:08,170 --> 00:03:12,170 And then while I was working at my tax starter at the tech 57 00:03:12,180 --> 00:03:15,740 startup, Smith Legal had a position open and, and they said 58 00:03:15,750 --> 00:03:18,960 something along the lines of, are you an articling student or 59 00:03:18,970 --> 00:03:23,060 a new call who may be realizing that practice is not for them? 60 00:03:23,070 --> 00:03:27,840 And I said, well, this ad is quite literally speaking to me. 61 00:03:27,910 --> 00:03:31,330 I very much enjoyed law school and, and, and the academic side 62 00:03:31,340 --> 00:03:33,890 of, of, of the law. I'll didn't enjoy too much 63 00:03:33,900 --> 00:03:34,710 practicing. I did it. 64 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,210 I felt I was very constrained to my computer and a lot of my work 65 00:03:38,220 --> 00:03:41,020 was just that. And there wasn't as much human 66 00:03:41,030 --> 00:03:45,310 connection to my, to that, that felt enough for me. 67 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,180 That was sufficient. And so, and so ultimately I 68 00:03:49,190 --> 00:03:51,970 decided to, to take that leap and, and, and interview for the 69 00:03:51,980 --> 00:03:54,930 position and always sort of like going back to recruitment. 70 00:03:54,940 --> 00:03:59,150 I think about the idea of would I regret this if I don't apply? 71 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:04,030 And felt very much a strong guess for me that I would regret 72 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:05,870 it if I at least did not consider it. 73 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,850 And I had a conversation and the rest is history. 74 00:04:07,860 --> 00:04:11,420 And I joined the team and it's, it's been amazing since on the 75 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,080 how did the, how did practice assist me, help me? 76 00:04:14,140 --> 00:04:16,779 I would say, you know, every day, like, you know, it can be 77 00:04:16,790 --> 00:04:20,839 as simple as understanding a little bit about practice areas 78 00:04:20,850 --> 00:04:23,060 and like what, what does the practice entail? 79 00:04:23,430 --> 00:04:27,080 And, and sort of understanding the level of responsibility and, 80 00:04:27,090 --> 00:04:30,440 and responsibility that an associate or partner or legal 81 00:04:30,450 --> 00:04:32,370 counsel may have on a specific file. 82 00:04:32,380 --> 00:04:35,070 I'm not here to say that I'm an expert in all of them, but at 83 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,940 least having that base understanding so that I can be a 84 00:04:37,950 --> 00:04:40,500 bit of a ping pong match in terms of I understand what 85 00:04:40,510 --> 00:04:42,330 you're saying. I think like what you're looking 86 00:04:42,340 --> 00:04:46,140 for is spicy and, but it could be also, you know, I've, I've 87 00:04:46,150 --> 00:04:50,420 redlined a few, a few employment offers alongside my candidates 88 00:04:50,430 --> 00:04:54,200 where they found some language that perhaps wasn't the best or 89 00:04:54,210 --> 00:04:57,610 they didn't necessarily like it. And so I've taken it to, you 90 00:04:57,620 --> 00:05:00,700 know, the kind of the night together we went at it and then, 91 00:05:00,710 --> 00:05:03,550 you know, made some, some some suggestions. 92 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,870 And so, you know, you see it, you see it here and there and, 93 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,550 and let the last one on in this that's different school of 94 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,010 thoughts. Some say, you know, obviously 95 00:05:15,070 --> 00:05:17,490 the legal profession is one that's quite insular and 96 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:20,150 insulated. And so when you are recruiter 97 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,630 that is also a lawyer, it helps in those conversations. 98 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,210 That's dependent on who you ask, but I I think generally doesn't 99 00:05:28,220 --> 00:05:31,330 really help that much. But it is definitely a bonus for 100 00:05:31,340 --> 00:05:33,030 sure. Amazing. 101 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,970 I, I see that, you know, supervising multiple practice 102 00:05:36,980 --> 00:05:40,050 areas, you know, through, you know, corporate finance, 103 00:05:40,060 --> 00:05:43,570 litigation, regulatory work, There's a lot of different areas 104 00:05:43,580 --> 00:05:45,310 there. And I wanted to know, you know, 105 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,490 what are you seeing in the Toronto market this winter? 106 00:05:48,550 --> 00:05:51,790 Is there a demand rising? Where is it flat? 107 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,470 What are some of the the updates you got to share with us? 108 00:05:54,740 --> 00:05:56,550 Yeah. I mean, it's one of my favorite 109 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,610 questions to answer. And obviously, you know, it 110 00:06:00,620 --> 00:06:03,610 varies based on the quarter, based on the time of the season. 111 00:06:03,710 --> 00:06:07,500 I would say 2025 I, and I think you've probably heard this many 112 00:06:07,510 --> 00:06:10,820 times, it was a, it was quite a choppier and frankly I would 113 00:06:10,870 --> 00:06:15,420 argue that it's been a choppy season from from 2023. 114 00:06:15,430 --> 00:06:18,610 I remember my time during articling and sort of looking 115 00:06:18,620 --> 00:06:21,830 for opportunities the following my auditing and, and it was 116 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:24,550 quite difficult and labour and employment and litigation were 117 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,950 the dominant practice areas. I would say especially 118 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,870 litigation and the last two years has seen an increase in 119 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,540 demand that was quite unprecedented and, and so as 120 00:06:36,550 --> 00:06:38,420 well as restructuring and insolvency. 121 00:06:38,740 --> 00:06:42,390 But you know, going back into what we're seeing right now. 122 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:45,790 So as I mentioned, 2025 was quite the choppy year. 123 00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:49,350 Litigation was still raining supreme for the first half and 124 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,810 then we saw bit of a shift occurring around April where we 125 00:06:53,820 --> 00:06:57,400 started seeing more core premium socialites making laterals 126 00:06:57,710 --> 00:07:02,160 granted and I'm if it's been a pivot from private practice to 127 00:07:02,170 --> 00:07:05,660 in house. And so largely a lot of firms 128 00:07:05,670 --> 00:07:07,970 were were were were quite happy with this result. 129 00:07:07,980 --> 00:07:11,880 As you know, it would allow them to as associates were not 130 00:07:11,890 --> 00:07:15,460 billing and the deal flow was not as expected. 131 00:07:15,850 --> 00:07:18,380 They had associates that were underutilized. 132 00:07:18,390 --> 00:07:21,770 And so this was a very welcome sort of like, you know, exodus, 133 00:07:21,780 --> 00:07:24,440 if you will. And so now what we're seeing is 134 00:07:24,450 --> 00:07:28,010 that deal flow is up ticking. And so some firms are moving 135 00:07:28,020 --> 00:07:29,910 early. And, and, and because they 136 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,320 understand that with the demand and deal flow rising and many of 137 00:07:33,330 --> 00:07:36,470 their associates having made the pivot in house, their current 138 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,630 bench strength is not as as good as they, they would like it to 139 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:42,590 be. So some firms are moving early. 140 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,680 We we're seeing that corporate money is definitely been been at 141 00:07:45,690 --> 00:07:48,280 the forefront and sort of like what firms are looking for. 142 00:07:48,290 --> 00:07:52,840 And I would say other areas to to look out for this year's 143 00:07:52,850 --> 00:07:56,900 project finance has been one of the busiest subsection of 144 00:07:56,910 --> 00:07:59,590 banking and finance securitization. 145 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,290 So banking and finance in general in general as well as 146 00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:04,800 the regulatory side of the practice. 147 00:08:04,990 --> 00:08:09,120 And then I would say infrastructure MP3 is one that's 148 00:08:09,130 --> 00:08:12,460 curiously rising. We've seen sort of like the the 149 00:08:12,470 --> 00:08:15,270 budget for 2020, the budget released by the federal 150 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,600 government with a strong emphasis on building more and 151 00:08:18,610 --> 00:08:22,180 building more in Canada. To that end, you're seeing a lot 152 00:08:22,190 --> 00:08:25,510 of, you're seeing some firms sort of recognize shifting their 153 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:30,490 groups and having specialized groups, some already existed and 154 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:32,740 perhaps they're just bolstering them more. 155 00:08:33,140 --> 00:08:35,990 So you've seen some marketing efforts, you're seeing some more 156 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,090 interest from firms to like get deepening their bench or 157 00:08:39,100 --> 00:08:42,450 creating an entire new group. So I would say like it's one 158 00:08:42,460 --> 00:08:46,010 area that has not necessarily seen a massive optic, but one 159 00:08:46,020 --> 00:08:47,490 that I would want to watch closely. 160 00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:51,610 And under litigation side, we we've sort of set a time and 161 00:08:51,620 --> 00:08:55,680 time again over the last year that is that window tightens the 162 00:08:55,690 --> 00:08:59,380 window where like on a practice area is so busy and so in demand 163 00:08:59,390 --> 00:09:02,200 will eventually die off. It's it's part of cycles. 164 00:09:02,530 --> 00:09:05,240 And so we weren't sort of like the litigation associates who 165 00:09:05,250 --> 00:09:08,060 were interesting in lateral link that the opportunities will be 166 00:09:08,070 --> 00:09:09,940 far and few in between in the coming year. 167 00:09:10,010 --> 00:09:12,340 And that is sort of what we're seeing as of now. 168 00:09:12,350 --> 00:09:15,720 So litigation boutiques are still in the hunt, but 169 00:09:15,730 --> 00:09:19,120 commercial litigation as a whole national at the national level 170 00:09:19,130 --> 00:09:23,260 is just not as prevalent. And then lastly, I would say 171 00:09:23,350 --> 00:09:27,430 watch out for construction litigation for sure if specific 172 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,410 on the commercial side. And then I would say 173 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,050 international trade I think will be another one that is going to 174 00:09:34,060 --> 00:09:36,470 be quite in demand as well as competition. 175 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,210 And so that's sort of like my overview obviously, you know, 176 00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:42,090 just like they're just projections and so like you can 177 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:44,530 never hold me to them. But like based on what we've 178 00:09:44,540 --> 00:09:47,450 been seeing, I would say for a corporate money associate, 179 00:09:47,860 --> 00:09:52,670 either capital market securities or even private MA, CBC or 180 00:09:52,680 --> 00:09:55,490 anything like that in that in that sphere would would likely 181 00:09:55,500 --> 00:09:58,930 be quite busy. And then for infrastructure and 182 00:09:58,940 --> 00:10:00,900 banking and finance, it would be my top three picks. 183 00:10:02,150 --> 00:10:04,300 Fantastic. Well, thanks for the quite 184 00:10:04,310 --> 00:10:07,920 comprehensive update on on what the markets looking like. 185 00:10:07,970 --> 00:10:10,890 Always much appreciated. And since you mentioned this in 186 00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:13,220 the beginning, I think you you said something about, you know, 187 00:10:13,230 --> 00:10:16,340 some kind of an exodus a living firms and going into different 188 00:10:16,350 --> 00:10:19,710 positions. So I think that that's something 189 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,520 that comes to mind to many associates, you know, weigh in 190 00:10:22,590 --> 00:10:25,400 weathering house, private practice, what makes sense in 191 00:10:25,410 --> 00:10:28,410 which stage of their careers and what they want to do out of 192 00:10:28,420 --> 00:10:30,550 their careers. And I wanted to know, you know, 193 00:10:30,650 --> 00:10:35,990 if you're talking to, you know, 2021 through 2024 calls, how 194 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,710 should they think through, you know, the timing, the skills, 195 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,310 the compensation? I think there's a lot of points 196 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,460 here that you're quite the person you're talking about. 197 00:10:43,470 --> 00:10:44,990 So I'd love to hear your thoughts. 198 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,770 Yeah, it's, it's fascinating. I think some of it is embedded 199 00:10:49,780 --> 00:10:52,690 sort of like even in law school, I recall, you know, you go to 200 00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:55,510 Bay Street, you go for three years and then you go in house. 201 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,810 I always jokingly say that make pastry is a little bit like the 202 00:10:58,820 --> 00:11:03,000 McDonald's of corporate lawyers is, you know, like that Donald 203 00:11:03,010 --> 00:11:04,760 is the first job you got out of high school. 204 00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:08,000 It looks good on your resume, you know, teaches you a lot. 205 00:11:08,010 --> 00:11:10,460 And then you just kind of like go wherever you you wish. 206 00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:13,460 There is some truth to that. At the same time, people need to 207 00:11:13,830 --> 00:11:16,660 I always sort of ask the question why, why and how and 208 00:11:16,670 --> 00:11:20,900 why now because it's, it's it's relevance is, is that a question 209 00:11:20,910 --> 00:11:23,150 of billables? Like a lot of people are tied to 210 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,210 their Bibles. They don't like the 211 00:11:24,220 --> 00:11:27,320 unpredictability their private practice provides, which is 212 00:11:27,330 --> 00:11:30,270 absolutely fair. It's hard to plan around your, 213 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,440 your, your, your day-to-day, but as well as like you know, 214 00:11:32,450 --> 00:11:35,530 outlook for the next quarter or the next half of year. 215 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:41,650 So at the same time, what people often fail to realize is that in 216 00:11:41,660 --> 00:11:45,310 house is an entirely, entirely different world provided 217 00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:49,300 depending on industry, depending on your role. 218 00:11:49,620 --> 00:11:52,370 So there will be certain industries that will pay closer 219 00:11:52,380 --> 00:11:55,370 to private practice, but at the same time, they have a higher 220 00:11:55,380 --> 00:11:58,090 expectations in terms of like what your day-to-day looks like. 221 00:11:58,100 --> 00:12:02,850 So it's not always a lofty and frankly almost never is a lofty 222 00:12:02,860 --> 00:12:07,820 9:00 to 5:00. So, and the, the practice also 223 00:12:07,830 --> 00:12:10,780 changes. So you're no longer a revenue 224 00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:13,320 generator, you're you're effectively a cost centre. 225 00:12:13,410 --> 00:12:17,420 So you need to provide effective legal risk, understand and 226 00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:20,360 effectively go advice by understanding the different 227 00:12:20,370 --> 00:12:24,880 legal risks that accompanies willing to to be subject to and 228 00:12:24,890 --> 00:12:27,360 and that involves having conversations with different 229 00:12:27,370 --> 00:12:30,440 departments within the company and really be embedded in it. 230 00:12:30,810 --> 00:12:34,870 And so oftentimes people don't realize that you don't need five 231 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:36,440 page memo. They just want to understand 232 00:12:36,450 --> 00:12:37,760 whether or not this can be achieved. 233 00:12:37,770 --> 00:12:39,620 And if not, how can we achieve it? 234 00:12:39,630 --> 00:12:41,920 And what what is the risk that we may be subject to? 235 00:12:42,010 --> 00:12:47,020 So that's the part that people tend to not not fully appreciate 236 00:12:47,090 --> 00:12:49,290 as opposed to. And the other thing when it goes 237 00:12:49,300 --> 00:12:53,780 to in house is you do end up punting sort of like the work 238 00:12:53,790 --> 00:12:57,920 when it gets very exciting and very sophisticated over to the 239 00:12:58,010 --> 00:13:01,680 over to to external council. So if you're the type of person 240 00:13:01,730 --> 00:13:06,270 that generally enjoys tackling multi sophisticated of issues 241 00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:11,510 and, and transactions, then I would would really consider 242 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,550 where, where in house sits for you. 243 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:16,710 And so I, I frequently have conversations with associates 244 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,250 that will say, well, we completed the transaction and 245 00:13:19,260 --> 00:13:21,580 then we just kind of like sent them over and we don't we, we 246 00:13:21,590 --> 00:13:25,090 don't see the implementation. And so that's a person that 247 00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:27,410 actually may be good for in house, like they want to 248 00:13:27,420 --> 00:13:31,390 actually seek out what the result of that, whatever legal 249 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,550 transaction or, or legal disputes they were part of. 250 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,690 So that's someone that usually tells me that may, may be more 251 00:13:37,700 --> 00:13:41,470 ready than others because if it's just being tied to the 252 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,580 billables and like, sort of like the pressures of private 253 00:13:43,590 --> 00:13:46,540 practice, there are alternatives within the private practice 254 00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:50,310 sphere that may work better for you as opposed to work going 255 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,950 directly in house. In terms of timing, it depends. 256 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,250 It always depends. I hate to give the lawyer answer 257 00:13:55,260 --> 00:13:58,070 to this, but you know, effectively the more junior you 258 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:03,250 are, the more challenging it, the more challenging it becomes 259 00:14:03,260 --> 00:14:07,870 to make that transition in house and and what are you, you want 260 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:13,020 to be able to really get into? The best way to explain this is 261 00:14:13,030 --> 00:14:16,990 like you're, you're, you're automatic, you're somewhat 262 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,010 cutting yourself off from private practice if you're doing 263 00:14:20,020 --> 00:14:23,460 decide to go in very early. And so like, are you OK with 264 00:14:23,470 --> 00:14:27,650 that decision of letting go of this private practice world as 265 00:14:27,660 --> 00:14:30,830 it is quite challenging to get back into it, especially when 266 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,340 you're more junior. And so I, I always say like, you 267 00:14:34,350 --> 00:14:37,750 know, with, as long as you can withstand private practice, my 268 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:42,350 advice is to stay as long as you can, because no other like in 269 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,240 house is not going to give you the same level of speed of 270 00:14:45,250 --> 00:14:50,140 execution, variety of files that that private practice would 271 00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:52,640 otherwise provide you with, as well as the training and just 272 00:14:52,650 --> 00:14:54,680 the hours, right? So, so that's sort of like my, 273 00:14:54,690 --> 00:14:56,790 my big ass. I hope, I hope I touched on all 274 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,920 the points, but please feel free to to to remind me of any other 275 00:14:59,930 --> 00:15:02,070 questions that I may have missed in that, in that question of 276 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,360 yours. No, I really appreciate that it. 277 00:15:04,370 --> 00:15:07,840 It helps a lot to know what the feet looks like and that maybe 278 00:15:07,850 --> 00:15:10,960 that's not a national like a natural transition for most 279 00:15:10,970 --> 00:15:12,220 people. It really depends on 280 00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:15,010 personality, on what they enjoy doing and all of that. 281 00:15:15,090 --> 00:15:18,990 Also still kind of on the, on the situation of personality 282 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,670 and, and the kind of work you like doing and all of that. 283 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,100 I noticed that, you know, some of the searches, searches in 284 00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:28,650 that have been advertised sits somewhat close to the C-Suite 285 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:31,200 level. And, and I'm very curious, you 286 00:15:31,210 --> 00:15:34,450 know, about what in a way separates those lawyers who 287 00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:38,400 thrive in a business facing role versus those who might struggle 288 00:15:38,410 --> 00:15:42,250 with this transition or even that, you know, as a recruiter 289 00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:45,410 or a consultant, you might tell them, hey, maybe this is not a 290 00:15:45,420 --> 00:15:49,990 good fit for you or, or maybe you choose not to recommend this 291 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,790 specific person should this kind of role. 292 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,580 What what are some some thoughts on that? 293 00:15:53,890 --> 00:15:55,520 Yeah. No, absolutely. 294 00:15:55,530 --> 00:15:59,700 And I think when it comes to those type of role where you're 295 00:15:59,710 --> 00:16:03,820 sitting very closely to six weeks, I think you have to learn 296 00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:06,980 how to do more with less and sort of like going back to the 297 00:16:06,990 --> 00:16:09,820 idea of, you know, you're a cost centre, right. 298 00:16:09,870 --> 00:16:13,420 So can you provide quite effective and quick business, 299 00:16:13,470 --> 00:16:16,560 business and legal advice to to the stakeholders? 300 00:16:16,570 --> 00:16:20,920 So that is something that some lawyers often struggle with, 301 00:16:20,970 --> 00:16:23,380 especially if they're coming straight out of private practice 302 00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:28,420 or perhaps even say like government positions where the 303 00:16:28,430 --> 00:16:33,060 pace is, is a lot slower and the process a lot more academic. 304 00:16:33,170 --> 00:16:34,870 The same goes for private practice, frankly. 305 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,930 Like if someone has to make a report, they're gonna make that 306 00:16:37,940 --> 00:16:41,450 upport quite extensive. But at the C-Suite, sort of like 307 00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:45,810 the, the, the chief legal officers or those, those type of 308 00:16:45,820 --> 00:16:49,890 roles, they require you to do like again, more with less. 309 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:54,250 So like if someone asked you, I need this, can we do this quick, 310 00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:57,560 like quick turn around? Can you also command the ship if 311 00:16:57,570 --> 00:17:01,070 you have people that report to you, Do you know how to boost 312 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,890 morale, keep people up and also advocate for your department, 313 00:17:05,940 --> 00:17:08,859 right? So again, going back when you're 314 00:17:08,869 --> 00:17:11,569 in private practice, you get a lot of like nice little nifty 315 00:17:11,579 --> 00:17:14,710 perks, right? So like you'll get the Uber 316 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,710 after hours or you get certain different things that happen 317 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,990 that otherwise not necessarily always available in house, 318 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,050 right? So can you as like a, as a 319 00:17:25,060 --> 00:17:27,869 leader of your, of your legal team, can you go and say, we 320 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,210 need to add another junior? We need to have a budget 321 00:17:31,220 --> 00:17:34,560 allocated to like, you know, fun nights out, whatever it may be, 322 00:17:34,570 --> 00:17:36,710 right? Are you able to sort of extend 323 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,610 up and have that kind of personality where you can go up 324 00:17:39,620 --> 00:17:41,510 to the CEO? Because frankly, that is often 325 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,630 who you end up reporting to and sort of saying these are the 326 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,590 needs of my team. And and so those are the few 327 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,060 things that that I tried to look for a bit of mock fee, if you 328 00:17:51,070 --> 00:17:54,660 will. So that's, you know, aside from 329 00:17:54,670 --> 00:17:58,600 being a excellent legal practitioner, do you have that 330 00:17:58,610 --> 00:18:01,490 type of personality where it's like you don't, you don't run 331 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:03,790 away from conflict. You had it, you face it head on 332 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,420 and and you try to also provide effective solutions. 333 00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:09,210 Amazing. Very, very, very interesting. 334 00:18:09,260 --> 00:18:12,550 I'm trying to think here about, you know, kind of digging into 335 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,030 those ideas of personality and all of that. 336 00:18:15,140 --> 00:18:17,590 And I think there is something very interesting that that I've 337 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,690 seen you posting about before and that is spoking somewhat 338 00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:23,710 frequently. It's about, you know, when is 339 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,790 usually a good time to make moves when you are most, you 340 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,620 know, marketable, then the market, you know, once you 341 00:18:29,630 --> 00:18:33,010 absorb people. So so overall speaking, what are 342 00:18:33,020 --> 00:18:37,240 some thoughts on, you know, if you're planning on leaving a law 343 00:18:37,250 --> 00:18:40,820 firm, for example, which year should you be looking into that? 344 00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:43,880 When is you know a good time when you're not Should junior 345 00:18:43,890 --> 00:18:47,570 but also not your senior? Tell me more. 346 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,810 I mean, I can talk about this topic for hours because it's one 347 00:18:50,820 --> 00:18:53,990 of my, and again lawyer answer, it depends. 348 00:18:54,260 --> 00:18:57,080 But I would say the sweet spot is generally the three to five 349 00:18:57,090 --> 00:19:00,730 year mark. And so the reason for that is 350 00:19:00,740 --> 00:19:05,030 you are still junior enough that you can sort of absorb the 351 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,170 culture of a different firm or a different company, whatever it 352 00:19:08,180 --> 00:19:10,210 may be. And so you can still like make a 353 00:19:10,220 --> 00:19:12,410 run for partner if that's something that you're interested 354 00:19:12,420 --> 00:19:14,530 in. And more importantly, firms at 355 00:19:14,540 --> 00:19:17,070 that point, at that stage still higher for ceiling. 356 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,330 So yes, they want sort of like the core competencies, but 357 00:19:20,340 --> 00:19:23,020 they're all they're willing and open to maybe close one eye if 358 00:19:23,030 --> 00:19:26,150 there's something that may be missing because they could see 359 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,460 the potential of like of your talent. 360 00:19:28,810 --> 00:19:32,720 And so the three-year mark is a good, is a good sort of like a 361 00:19:32,730 --> 00:19:37,670 placeholder because by that year articling you don't know nothing 362 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,760 and knowing you're not expected to know anything first. 363 00:19:40,770 --> 00:19:42,820 Yeah, you're expected to know everything, but you know 364 00:19:42,830 --> 00:19:44,660 nothing. Second year, you start becoming 365 00:19:44,670 --> 00:19:46,760 a little bit more comfortable, but you're also becoming more 366 00:19:46,770 --> 00:19:48,520 comfortable with the idea of knowing nothing. 367 00:19:48,810 --> 00:19:52,040 In your third year, you're finally in a place where you 368 00:19:52,050 --> 00:19:54,300 have a little bit more autonomy over files. 369 00:19:54,370 --> 00:19:58,240 You sometimes even have a junior reporting to your an articling 370 00:19:58,250 --> 00:20:00,760 student. And so you have a level of 371 00:20:00,770 --> 00:20:04,340 familiarity that puts you that makes you a bit more confident. 372 00:20:04,350 --> 00:20:08,180 And you've seen sort of like the type of documents and files that 373 00:20:08,190 --> 00:20:10,420 are that are frequent. And so that puts you in a 374 00:20:10,430 --> 00:20:14,120 position where if there were to take you and plug you into 375 00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:16,460 another in a in a different environment and a different 376 00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:19,040 world, it's not like you're starting from zero. 377 00:20:19,380 --> 00:20:23,010 And so that's sort of why that that third year mark is often 378 00:20:23,020 --> 00:20:26,380 like the benchmark, granted, their associates can leave 379 00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:29,490 earlier or after or before, but that third year mark usually 380 00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:31,680 puts in a good spot. And then, you know, there are 381 00:20:31,690 --> 00:20:35,030 different considerations, right? So for instance, the 5th year 382 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,890 mark is the opposite of that because by fifth year, 383 00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:40,790 especially if you're intending on making a private practice, 384 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,870 lateral firms may be wondering, well, why is he at this point, 385 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,310 at this stage in his career? Why are they not making a push 386 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,090 for partner it within their own firm? 387 00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:51,740 But there is sort of like a the goalpost chefs in terms of 388 00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:55,500 competencies and, and and it makes them more challenging. 389 00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:57,960 It doesn't give you the same level of options as you would if 390 00:20:57,970 --> 00:21:01,060 you were a third or fourth year. And you know, once again to the 391 00:21:01,070 --> 00:21:03,970 6th and the 7th, it generally becomes increasingly more 392 00:21:03,980 --> 00:21:07,800 challenging unless it's a council position or, you know, 393 00:21:07,890 --> 00:21:10,660 there's a promise of partnership on the other end. 394 00:21:10,670 --> 00:21:14,410 But there in in generally there may be like, you know, at least 395 00:21:14,420 --> 00:21:17,840 some form of CBD involved. Are you building some kind of 396 00:21:17,850 --> 00:21:19,160 bug? Are you, do you have some kind 397 00:21:19,170 --> 00:21:21,770 of clients, even cancer of the smaller level? 398 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:26,610 And so the, the, the sort of like the, the, the goalpost and 399 00:21:26,620 --> 00:21:29,840 the, and the benchmarks that the firms use tip heavily sort of 400 00:21:29,850 --> 00:21:33,230 like in favor of real proof of evidence that you're doing and 401 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,970 you're exceeding and expectations within your current 402 00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:38,960 firm, if that makes sense. No, absolutely. 403 00:21:38,970 --> 00:21:42,140 He really does. And for in house, I would say I 404 00:21:42,290 --> 00:21:47,340 same thing. 3 to 5 is great for in house, like post five, I 405 00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:48,720 think you'd be able to find positions. 406 00:21:48,730 --> 00:21:51,500 And then if anything, you may be able to find positions with 407 00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:54,500 titles that are like greater than legal counsel, perhaps 408 00:21:54,510 --> 00:21:57,580 senior legal counsel. If it's a small team, you may 409 00:21:57,590 --> 00:22:01,560 even get like a higher position, especially with the more 410 00:22:01,570 --> 00:22:04,820 seniority that you have. So that that is a little bit 411 00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:05,980 different. And that is why I say it 412 00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:09,590 depends. Absolutely no, that's amazing. 413 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,530 Thank you so much for for, for explaining that so, so nicely. 414 00:22:14,460 --> 00:22:17,360 If I may ask you, you know, kind of leading towards the end of 415 00:22:17,370 --> 00:22:20,920 our conversation today, I'm wondering is there, you know, 416 00:22:20,970 --> 00:22:24,700 some kind of step or some kind of thing that that associates 417 00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:28,280 could do or maybe an action that could, they could take 418 00:22:28,340 --> 00:22:33,020 throughout this month to create opportunities and options for, 419 00:22:33,030 --> 00:22:36,840 for the next semester or for, you know, Quel 4 later this 420 00:22:36,850 --> 00:22:38,980 year? What are what are some things 421 00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:42,620 that that you would you know who are recommended to like maybe 422 00:22:42,630 --> 00:22:47,860 like open more? Options yeah I I would talk to 423 00:22:47,870 --> 00:22:51,010 every single person that you can and like honestly like for 424 00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:54,090 instance, very much loved sort of what you what you've done 425 00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:57,230 with the University of Toronto celebrating the 75th 426 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:58,700 anniversary. That's great, right? 427 00:22:58,710 --> 00:23:02,230 Like you also have a point of a reason for the reach out, right? 428 00:23:02,420 --> 00:23:06,580 But at the same time, lawyers love to take a chance, 429 00:23:06,590 --> 00:23:11,210 especially if you're junior and I say you're, you won't have the 430 00:23:11,220 --> 00:23:14,990 same amount of time and the same amount of sort of like novelty 431 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,610 to you then your first three years of practice, even as an 432 00:23:18,620 --> 00:23:22,170 articling student. And so that is when people are 433 00:23:22,180 --> 00:23:24,310 willing to carry out. And that is what and I say 434 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,270 always say just to send the e-mail or send a LinkedIn 435 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,980 message and follow up, following up. 436 00:23:30,990 --> 00:23:32,780 I'd say like, it's half the game. 437 00:23:33,410 --> 00:23:37,050 You know, oftentimes these people are busy, their inboxes 438 00:23:37,060 --> 00:23:41,160 probably a mess. So make it a habit of following 439 00:23:41,170 --> 00:23:42,680 up because it's not, they don't like you. 440 00:23:42,690 --> 00:23:44,740 It's probably like you've caught them at a bad time. 441 00:23:44,810 --> 00:23:48,000 And the second, third follow-up will probably be a time where 442 00:23:48,010 --> 00:23:50,560 there may be in, in a better place where they can answer. 443 00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:53,620 So always follow up, have as many conversations as you can. 444 00:23:53,630 --> 00:23:57,280 And, and, and I genuinely mean that because first of all, it 445 00:23:57,290 --> 00:24:01,190 allows you to really refine how you view your practice and what 446 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,320 you're doing. And 2nd, it gives you an 447 00:24:03,330 --> 00:24:06,400 opportunity to generally understand what people are 448 00:24:06,410 --> 00:24:08,040 doing. And it could, it could be in 449 00:24:08,050 --> 00:24:10,880 your practice area or a practice that you're interested in or a 450 00:24:10,890 --> 00:24:14,020 whole different 1. And so have as many 451 00:24:14,030 --> 00:24:16,440 conversations as you can, especially in your article, not 452 00:24:16,450 --> 00:24:19,660 just within the bounds of your firm, but outside of it as well. 453 00:24:19,730 --> 00:24:23,240 So that is my best advice. And I would say treated almost 454 00:24:23,250 --> 00:24:27,260 as working out like you want to do it in a way where I say have 455 00:24:27,270 --> 00:24:30,180 an Excel spreadsheet, have like the people that you've reached 456 00:24:30,190 --> 00:24:31,840 out to. When was the first time that you 457 00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:33,240 reached out to? Did they get back to you? 458 00:24:33,250 --> 00:24:35,800 Did they not get back to you? Then have a follow up, right? 459 00:24:35,810 --> 00:24:40,740 And so like treated almost as a job because nothing else will 460 00:24:40,750 --> 00:24:44,060 open more opportunities than than that really having as many 461 00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:46,980 conversations as possible. And then my other one is sort of 462 00:24:46,990 --> 00:24:51,300 like branding and I it's so funny, like I despise LinkedIn 463 00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:55,020 for the longest time I found it in so cringy. 464 00:24:55,030 --> 00:24:58,240 I thought like, you know, like, you know, I was jokingly say I'm 465 00:24:58,250 --> 00:25:04,600 a LinkedIn warrior, but there is a way to use your voice and 466 00:25:04,650 --> 00:25:08,000 nothing has the same level of reach that linked it otherwise 467 00:25:08,010 --> 00:25:10,440 has. And it doesn't always have to be 468 00:25:10,450 --> 00:25:13,510 understood observation on a recent Supreme Court of Canada 469 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,230 hearing or the, the, the, the sexiest transaction that 470 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:18,630 occurred in, in the first quarter. 471 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,150 It could, it could just be very simple, sort of like where I got 472 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,570 my coffee or what I, you know, like very basic, very personal. 473 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,970 Those actually tend to be the ones that do quite well. 474 00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:32,690 But like allowing yourself to be visible. 475 00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:34,160 That's sort of the name of the game. 476 00:25:34,170 --> 00:25:36,630 The more visible you are, the more opportunities are open to 477 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,740 you. And I've seen that with the 478 00:25:38,750 --> 00:25:42,850 associates that tend to be quite high performing that will have, 479 00:25:42,860 --> 00:25:46,100 they will have some form of voice on LinkedIn, whether it's 480 00:25:46,110 --> 00:25:49,820 purely academic or whether it's, you know, just like a mix. 481 00:25:50,210 --> 00:25:53,600 Those are the ones that want to be visible and go out of their 482 00:25:53,610 --> 00:25:57,020 way to do so. But that's sort of like my my 483 00:25:57,030 --> 00:25:57,660 answer. I hope. 484 00:25:57,670 --> 00:26:01,400 I hope that was exhaustive. Now that was amazing. 485 00:26:01,410 --> 00:26:03,040 Really appreciate you taking the time. 486 00:26:03,050 --> 00:26:06,500 Really appreciate all the advice and and thank you all for tuning 487 00:26:06,510 --> 00:26:09,490 into today's episode. Yeah, thank you so much guys, 488 00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:11,250 and thank you for having me. This is so much fun. 489 00:26:13,780 --> 00:26:15,580 Absolutely was. Thank you.