1 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,890 Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. 2 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:17,870 I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with 3 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,850 lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:24,730 of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the 5 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,410 profession looks like in real life. 6 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,470 We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,790 that shaped their paths, whether you're planning to study abroad, 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,520 thinking about working in another legal system, or just 9 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:38,470 curious about how law works around the world. 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:44,550 This podcast is for you. Today I have the opportunity to 11 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,350 be interviewing Annika Jiwaji. She is a litigator. 12 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,410 She has an LLM in securities law and has an incredible 13 00:00:51,420 --> 00:00:54,190 experience. She leads her own firm and I'm 14 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,990 so excited to host her today. Thank you so much for being here 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,280 today, Annika. Thanks for having me. 16 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,710 Absolutely, and she's started podcast today. 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,170 I'd love for you to introduce herself to our guests and maybe 18 00:01:06,180 --> 00:01:08,450 share a little bit about your journey into law and what 19 00:01:08,460 --> 00:01:10,070 inspired you to become a litigator. 20 00:01:10,380 --> 00:01:11,350 Sure. Yeah. 21 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,850 So, so I'm the ANICA and I'm already at commercial litigator 22 00:01:15,860 --> 00:01:19,850 and all the securities litigator here Vancouver and I've been 23 00:01:19,860 --> 00:01:23,690 quite the journey to get to where I am at today. 24 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:26,210 So I kind of grew up in a law family. 25 00:01:26,220 --> 00:01:29,820 My dad was a lawyer, my dad number of siblings who were 26 00:01:29,830 --> 00:01:32,720 lawyers. So I went around just industry 27 00:01:32,730 --> 00:01:36,520 from a very young age. I was actually born the day 28 00:01:36,530 --> 00:01:40,860 before my dad's constitutional law exam, Dahlsen University, 29 00:01:40,870 --> 00:01:44,520 the whole thing. We relocated to Halifax from 30 00:01:44,530 --> 00:01:48,660 London to attend law. So I was born into this other 31 00:01:48,670 --> 00:01:53,500 young age until running around my dad's practice, my always 32 00:01:53,630 --> 00:01:57,740 informed jobs to do so he would have to make up jumps for me, 33 00:01:57,750 --> 00:02:01,920 like filing again, I would say I want to scan things and just 34 00:02:01,930 --> 00:02:04,530 little things like that. So yeah, I was always kind of 35 00:02:04,590 --> 00:02:07,760 around my dad's practice. I always from a young age said I 36 00:02:07,770 --> 00:02:12,750 wanted to be a lawyer and I I've always known that I was a 37 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,250 litigator who never even did like the solicitors move things 38 00:02:16,260 --> 00:02:20,170 and went straight into a full litigation role. 39 00:02:20,180 --> 00:02:22,450 And I've only ever done litigation and other state and 40 00:02:22,460 --> 00:02:27,230 litigation all of the 10 years and we love it. 41 00:02:27,540 --> 00:02:31,070 So yeah, in terms of like the journey, like I started at a 42 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,870 specialty lines, that national specialty lines insurance firm 43 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,590 doing that mostly professional negligence claims. 44 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,000 And then I transitioned to a full service regional firm with 45 00:02:41,010 --> 00:02:43,980 that more of like a full service practice, still doing some of 46 00:02:43,990 --> 00:02:46,230 the insurance work I was doing before, but then some more 47 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,930 commercial litigation. And then I went full commercial 48 00:02:48,940 --> 00:02:50,920 litigation at an international firm. 49 00:02:51,260 --> 00:02:54,110 And after that I went to the BC Securities Commission. 50 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,640 I was a litigation council there in an enforcement branch for 3 51 00:02:58,650 --> 00:03:03,360 1/2 years. Most recently I was at a top 52 00:03:03,370 --> 00:03:05,780 tier commercial litigation boutique in town. 53 00:03:05,790 --> 00:03:10,360 And as of January 12th of this year, so very recently, I'm now 54 00:03:10,370 --> 00:03:14,380 at my own boutique shop with that myself and my sister who is 55 00:03:14,650 --> 00:03:20,180 a corporate lawyer within the society and Max and I DNA. 56 00:03:20,190 --> 00:03:23,000 So we are doing something a little different here, kind of 57 00:03:23,010 --> 00:03:25,240 bringing my skill set in hers together. 58 00:03:25,250 --> 00:03:27,560 And now we're just kind of started on that journey, man. 59 00:03:27,570 --> 00:03:30,120 So it's kind of the long story of how long it. 60 00:03:30,130 --> 00:03:33,200 Is incredible. I'm glad we're talking now that 61 00:03:33,210 --> 00:03:37,170 you know you have this awesome and exciting professional day to 62 00:03:37,180 --> 00:03:39,600 your continue on learning a little more about your journey 63 00:03:39,610 --> 00:03:42,100 and all of that. I also wanted to ask you about, 64 00:03:42,110 --> 00:03:45,580 you know, outside the courtroom as your litigator. 65 00:03:46,220 --> 00:03:48,730 Are there a few, you know, passions or projects that 66 00:03:48,740 --> 00:03:51,610 energize you and influence your perspective as a lawyer? 67 00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:54,830 Oh my gosh, I have it was, it's actually a little joke. 68 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,210 I just had lunch with a with a friend over and she said to me, 69 00:03:58,220 --> 00:04:01,200 she's a litigator in town. Who's your 10 years by the year? 70 00:04:01,340 --> 00:04:03,520 And she was, she was just sort of chuckling at me because I'm 71 00:04:03,530 --> 00:04:05,930 kind of one of those people who always has a project or a 72 00:04:05,940 --> 00:04:08,170 passion outside of law sort of on the go. 73 00:04:08,180 --> 00:04:11,250 I've always sort of considered myself to be a bit like 74 00:04:11,260 --> 00:04:13,490 multifaceted or little bit out-of-the-box. 75 00:04:13,500 --> 00:04:17,570 So you know, what you usually see in kind of the complex 76 00:04:17,579 --> 00:04:21,029 litigation space, other things going on in my life. 77 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,370 I think it's really important. So one of the big things that 78 00:04:24,380 --> 00:04:27,990 I'm working on right now is the jewelry company with my sisters. 79 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,350 So with my sister, the law firm, with another younger sister, I'm 80 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,750 the middle sister, there's three of us who lives in Toronto and 81 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,550 she works in advertising. So we have a jewelry company 82 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,640 called Jaya. We're at House of Jaya on 83 00:04:42,650 --> 00:04:45,450 Instagram and we do a lot of like fine jewelry. 84 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,490 We're doing a bit of like a bigger lodge for some 85 00:04:48,540 --> 00:04:51,090 collections we have in the works coming up in the spring. 86 00:04:51,100 --> 00:04:53,990 But to date we've done a lot of custom engagement rings and 87 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,450 cocktail rings and it made a lot of rings for a lot of other 88 00:04:57,460 --> 00:04:59,580 lawyers in town. I'm friends from law school. 89 00:04:59,590 --> 00:05:03,030 I've done their engagement rings so that objects on the go. 90 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,080 And then of course, I LinkedIn and that's sort of an ongoing 91 00:05:06,090 --> 00:05:07,930 project, which climate amount of nowhere. 92 00:05:07,940 --> 00:05:11,990 I started doing LinkedIn in 2020 and it really just took off. 93 00:05:12,250 --> 00:05:15,030 So I do a lot of writing around mental health and gender equity 94 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,570 issues and systemic issues in the law on LinkedIn. 95 00:05:18,580 --> 00:05:21,490 And so that's an ongoing sort of passion project. 96 00:05:21,500 --> 00:05:25,670 And those are the things, in addition to building out Jiwaji 97 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,000 Law, that I have on the goal, right. 98 00:05:27,710 --> 00:05:30,200 Oh, that's so exciting and, and lots going on. 99 00:05:30,590 --> 00:05:34,200 If I may ask them more about what has motivated you to start 100 00:05:34,210 --> 00:05:38,260 your own firm and even if that comes from you wanting to 101 00:05:38,270 --> 00:05:41,470 reflect your values and your approach to law in a more 102 00:05:41,670 --> 00:05:45,790 personal way? Yeah, you know, the Old Firm 103 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,970 thing is something that I really sort of came around to. 104 00:05:48,980 --> 00:05:53,430 So from probably the time that I was like a 5 or 6 year call, I 105 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,550 know a 10 year call, people would say to me like, Anna, you 106 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,550 should start your own firm. And I was like, I don't know if 107 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,170 I want to do that because I sort of have this idea in my mind. 108 00:06:02,220 --> 00:06:06,630 I have to like make it within the existing infrastructure. 109 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:12,850 So I kept trying to like fit myself into the boxes of what I 110 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,210 thought I should be doing. So you know, for example, I 111 00:06:16,220 --> 00:06:20,190 would say, OK, well I'll go start my own firm if and when I 112 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,290 make partner at another firm, like just things like that. 113 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:24,950 Like I had all these little benchmarks. 114 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,460 I think that I was going to do the client pushed to four. 115 00:06:28,470 --> 00:06:31,010 I started my own farm. I always wanted my own firm. 116 00:06:31,020 --> 00:06:33,410 I always kind of knew that was on game for me. 117 00:06:33,420 --> 00:06:37,660 But I think that in some ways I sort of got into this proving 118 00:06:37,670 --> 00:06:40,400 myself mentality. I wanted everybody to know like 119 00:06:40,410 --> 00:06:42,780 I could get in within their system. 120 00:06:42,890 --> 00:06:44,760 I don't know if that was a good thing or a bad thing. 121 00:06:44,770 --> 00:06:47,220 I think on the good thing side, you know, I built a lot of 122 00:06:47,230 --> 00:06:50,200 really good credibility in this market, which I don't think I 123 00:06:50,210 --> 00:06:53,200 would have if I had gone out earlier by myself. 124 00:06:53,210 --> 00:06:55,440 I am. But really for me, it sort of 125 00:06:55,450 --> 00:06:59,600 came to a head like, oh, really just did not see a future at the 126 00:06:59,610 --> 00:07:01,580 current firm. Then where was I don't think 127 00:07:01,590 --> 00:07:03,380 that they saw future for me either. 128 00:07:03,390 --> 00:07:05,880 I think that's probably a mutual statement. 129 00:07:05,970 --> 00:07:09,170 And, you know, I really just got to a point where I had a great 130 00:07:09,180 --> 00:07:12,030 book of business was doing really well when it came to the 131 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,950 actual, you know, substantive skills of litigating. 132 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,810 I really felt confident in, you know, what I was able to do and 133 00:07:17,820 --> 00:07:21,670 bring to the table. And there was really no value of 134 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,690 being at other firms anymore. I didn't feel like I needed 135 00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:29,390 another platform for, you know, probability or for experience. 136 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,890 I have so many amazing matters outside of my firm and even my 137 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:38,050 former firm that, you know, I would always all about how, you 138 00:07:38,060 --> 00:07:42,270 know, snowball with file or a problem or something like I, I 139 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,470 felt I had the network that I needed that if I was like stuck 140 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,970 on a file or I needed some guidance, I didn't need to be 141 00:07:48,980 --> 00:07:52,170 within the existing structure anymore to make that work for 142 00:07:52,180 --> 00:07:54,680 me. So I was kind of at a point when 143 00:07:54,690 --> 00:07:57,620 I was looking to what was my next opportunity. 144 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,240 I did actually interview and had some really good opportunities 145 00:08:02,250 --> 00:08:06,080 kind of come by way, but they were all again within other 146 00:08:06,090 --> 00:08:08,960 peoples farms or, you know, big law and that kind of thing. 147 00:08:08,970 --> 00:08:11,820 And it just kind of brought to a point where I said, you know, I 148 00:08:11,870 --> 00:08:15,210 need, I don't actually need these things anymore, Probably 149 00:08:15,220 --> 00:08:17,500 things that it takes to do this myself. 150 00:08:17,890 --> 00:08:22,020 And that's really what what what spurred me to to go and join up 151 00:08:22,030 --> 00:08:23,910 with them sister and and do this. 152 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,560 And we just both really felt like, you know, that we didn't 153 00:08:27,570 --> 00:08:31,880 see something in the market the way that we kind of practice 154 00:08:31,890 --> 00:08:35,289 law, like where we have all the, you know, the skills and the 155 00:08:35,299 --> 00:08:37,380 experience. But I think that we felt that 156 00:08:37,740 --> 00:08:40,840 the firms that we we had been at in the past, like we just were 157 00:08:40,850 --> 00:08:43,870 not able to flourish and the way that we could at our own firm. 158 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,290 And my sister, who went out six months ago by herself in June, 159 00:08:48,540 --> 00:08:53,110 was just having such a good time practicing outside of all of 160 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,810 these other institutions. And she's going on such great 161 00:08:55,820 --> 00:08:59,150 clients and great experience. And she just kept saying to me 162 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,080 like, this is like the way forward. 163 00:09:01,580 --> 00:09:06,700 I'm only wanted to build a term that for me, it's not about 164 00:09:06,710 --> 00:09:09,530 being women LED for the sake of being women LED. 165 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,930 It's more about like all lined women's rugby hitting women is 166 00:09:14,940 --> 00:09:18,090 actually really good dismals. And I see a lot of firms that 167 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:20,570 sort of say, Oh, well, we'll know what that's like. 168 00:09:20,580 --> 00:09:24,640 An like for me, that's not really necessarily the story. 169 00:09:24,650 --> 00:09:29,520 It's like building a place where we hire women and silent people 170 00:09:29,530 --> 00:09:31,760 because they are the best person for the job. 171 00:09:31,870 --> 00:09:34,560 That's the decision. What's the business decision? 172 00:09:34,620 --> 00:09:36,240 Do it because it's warm and fuzzy. 173 00:09:36,250 --> 00:09:39,210 We do it because it's a good business decision. 174 00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:42,660 We are firing the best rounded out the most excellent Adderall 175 00:09:42,710 --> 00:09:47,400 and back in a lot of times tends to be a woman. 176 00:09:47,620 --> 00:09:51,440 Still, that's part of what this firm is invoked and really to be 177 00:09:51,450 --> 00:09:54,150 able to say. Well, that that's a very 178 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,790 exciting phase for sure. And I'm so happy to hear a 179 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,880 little bit about like why this decision came about and how you 180 00:10:00,890 --> 00:10:02,810 got through it. And you mentioned a little bit 181 00:10:02,820 --> 00:10:05,580 about your practice. I'd love to hear a little more, 182 00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:09,570 you know, about your your commercial cases, securities 183 00:10:09,580 --> 00:10:11,810 insurance. I know it's very hard to say 184 00:10:11,820 --> 00:10:15,230 like my day-to-day looks like this because it can be so 185 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,050 varied. But I'm wondering if there's a 186 00:10:17,060 --> 00:10:20,390 few things that you find most, you know, rewarding about this 187 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,010 kind of work or if there's a few things that are very challenging 188 00:10:24,020 --> 00:10:26,310 and, and maybe that's what excites you as well. 189 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,150 Yeah, so my practice, I really consider myself to be like a 190 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,470 true barrister, like I am always taking the mentality. 191 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,030 I've done so many different things in litigation. 192 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:39,230 I'm always taking the mentality, you know, you should never get 193 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,000 comfortable if a file is new to you or an area practice is new 194 00:10:43,010 --> 00:10:46,340 to you, you can always learn it as long as you have like the 195 00:10:46,350 --> 00:10:49,240 litigation toolbox, like the litigation is all really the 196 00:10:49,250 --> 00:10:52,040 same at all lot of ways, right. It's like if you have the 197 00:10:52,050 --> 00:10:55,500 procedural tools and ability to do strategy, you should be able 198 00:10:55,510 --> 00:10:58,140 to pick up most files and do them. 199 00:10:58,150 --> 00:11:01,960 Now, that being said, I don't I'm pretty I'm pretty squarely 200 00:11:01,970 --> 00:11:05,960 in the like Brevan commercial litigation space in the sense of 201 00:11:05,970 --> 00:11:06,990 what? I don't do any estates 202 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,540 litigation. I don't do any criminal law or 203 00:11:09,550 --> 00:11:13,780 family law or employment law. So I basically my commercial 204 00:11:13,790 --> 00:11:16,480 litigation practice encompasses everything else. 205 00:11:16,850 --> 00:11:20,540 So like shareholders disputes, commercial tantrum disputes with 206 00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:23,920 advised companies and for profits and solve these 207 00:11:24,010 --> 00:11:26,680 governance issues, all of that sort of thing. 208 00:11:26,690 --> 00:11:29,740 And then I have sort of an interesting sort of subset of my 209 00:11:29,750 --> 00:11:32,940 practice, which I'm really comes out from my, my time at a 210 00:11:32,950 --> 00:11:35,800 Securities Commission. So I do have a securities like 211 00:11:35,810 --> 00:11:39,280 regulatory practice where, you know, I'm defending people 212 00:11:39,290 --> 00:11:43,100 against investigations and persecutions from entities like 213 00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:46,540 the BC Securities Commission or if they've got professional 214 00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:49,800 disciplinary hearings that things like 0 that, you know, 215 00:11:49,810 --> 00:11:52,380 the Canadian rose, forget what the acronym stands for these 216 00:11:52,390 --> 00:11:55,760 days, but Canadian Investment Regulatory Organization, it is 217 00:11:56,650 --> 00:11:59,390 that kind of thing. And then that sort of snowballed 218 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,070 because I had that, you know, skill sink within the 219 00:12:02,230 --> 00:12:06,130 administrative law sort of regulatory world into doing 220 00:12:06,190 --> 00:12:09,720 other regulatory areas. So you know, like for example, 221 00:12:09,730 --> 00:12:14,020 I've I've taken on a file right now that is a is a model before 222 00:12:14,030 --> 00:12:17,680 the Medical Services Commission. So that's kind of very squarely 223 00:12:17,690 --> 00:12:20,310 in like the administrative law sort of space. 224 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,640 So yeah, I would I would sort of describe my practices like 225 00:12:23,650 --> 00:12:26,660 commercial litigation, regulatory Securities 226 00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:30,920 Litigation, straight of law. One of the things that I'm doing 227 00:12:30,930 --> 00:12:34,630 now that is new to me in a sensible John smoking litigation 228 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,910 before I did do some litigation when I was at Dentons. 229 00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:43,660 But my sister is an intellectual property and trademark lawyer 230 00:12:43,730 --> 00:12:47,060 and she's also a tax lawyer. So she really has like really 231 00:12:47,070 --> 00:12:49,840 great substantive knowledge in those areas, but she's not a 232 00:12:49,850 --> 00:12:52,320 litigator. So one of the reasons that we 233 00:12:52,330 --> 00:12:55,720 sort of decided to bring this together is we felt that there 234 00:12:55,730 --> 00:13:00,460 was a niche in the market for these two specific areas because 235 00:13:00,530 --> 00:13:03,880 a lot of firms that they'll do IP and they'll do tax, but they 236 00:13:03,890 --> 00:13:06,260 don't have anybody who does the disputes work. 237 00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:10,040 And I have like, you know, the litigation and the chance to do 238 00:13:10,050 --> 00:13:13,040 that stuff, but I don't have a substantive mode and my sister 239 00:13:13,050 --> 00:13:16,380 knows that stuff in some. So we are not actually eating 240 00:13:16,390 --> 00:13:19,190 picking up some more. We got two really nice pieces of 241 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,040 litigation and the goal right now, which is great. 242 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,290 And we were starting to get more referrals and disputes space. 243 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:30,950 So I really just see that just sort of staying in a lot of ways 244 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,530 what it is. But also both of those things I 245 00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:38,080 see and attacks like they're, they're basically before 246 00:13:38,090 --> 00:13:40,310 administrative tribunals, Oriental score. 247 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,610 So I'm sort of well positioned to do that work and excited to 248 00:13:44,620 --> 00:13:48,150 work with someone who just like was so much worse for me. 249 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:51,130 So much respect for we collaborate really well on these 250 00:13:51,420 --> 00:13:54,110 and I think that we'll be able to serve things in a way that 251 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,550 other groups just on those areas. 252 00:13:57,620 --> 00:14:00,230 So yeah, that's how it where where my practice is at right 253 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,750 now. Oh, I see it developing. 254 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,450 That's so exciting. No, it's, it sounds really 255 00:14:04,460 --> 00:14:06,990 incredible. The the skins, the skill set 256 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,320 that each of you bring something that I'm always curious. 257 00:14:10,330 --> 00:14:13,750 So I'm not sure if you've seen this, but basically what I do in 258 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,250 my podcast, a lot of my listeners at this moment are 259 00:14:17,310 --> 00:14:19,880 early career professionals, people who are starting up their 260 00:14:19,890 --> 00:14:23,920 careers, law students. So I always make a point to ask 261 00:14:24,110 --> 00:14:27,110 my guests a little bit about things that they've singing 262 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,540 throughout their careers or things that really helped them 263 00:14:29,930 --> 00:14:32,440 in their career as well. If I were to ask you, you know, 264 00:14:32,450 --> 00:14:35,810 looking back, what are some of the most important lessons that 265 00:14:35,820 --> 00:14:38,840 you've learned as a litigator that maybe you think that, you 266 00:14:38,850 --> 00:14:41,880 know, young lawyers should know early in their careers? 267 00:14:41,930 --> 00:14:45,160 Are there a few points that that you would maybe tell your 268 00:14:45,170 --> 00:14:48,870 younger self these days? I don't know if my, my, my sort 269 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,550 of take on that is necessarily litigation focused, but what I 270 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,590 will say is like, First off, don't try to plan things too 271 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,370 much. Like when I look at my career, 272 00:14:57,380 --> 00:15:00,130 like I couldn't have planned any of this, right? 273 00:15:00,140 --> 00:15:01,810 Like none of this was really planned. 274 00:15:01,820 --> 00:15:04,530 I just, I was always sort of nimble. 275 00:15:04,540 --> 00:15:08,570 I was always able to pivot. I was always, I always trusted 276 00:15:08,580 --> 00:15:11,550 my own judgment and my own intentions on things. 277 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,290 And I think like, you know, a lot of times in law, we get 278 00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:17,030 really caught up in what like other people are telling us what 279 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,210 to do. Like, so for example, like, you 280 00:15:19,220 --> 00:15:21,490 know, people told me not to do LinkedIn. 281 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,590 They said like that was going to be a career suicide mission. 282 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,840 People told me I would never be able to, you know, transition 283 00:15:27,850 --> 00:15:31,520 and doing insurance litigation. People told me a lot of things. 284 00:15:31,530 --> 00:15:33,910 And, you know, for me, I just didn't listen to any of them. 285 00:15:34,190 --> 00:15:36,750 I'm not saying they should never take advice from anybody, but 286 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,720 like, I think you have to like really dig deep and see like 287 00:15:39,730 --> 00:15:41,460 what you want out of your career. 288 00:15:41,470 --> 00:15:44,400 And people are giving advice about from like their lived 289 00:15:44,410 --> 00:15:46,020 experience. And some of that is like great 290 00:15:46,030 --> 00:15:48,490 advice. But on the whole, like you 291 00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:50,620 really have to like be really self aware. 292 00:15:50,690 --> 00:15:52,900 And that's what's really served me. 293 00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:55,940 Like I'm very, I think very self aware person. 294 00:15:55,950 --> 00:15:59,480 Like I know what I'm doing, what I'm going to very well, where 295 00:15:59,490 --> 00:16:02,680 are my strengths and weaknesses. And that's really served me well 296 00:16:02,930 --> 00:16:06,030 in terms of being able to like make decisions on my own accord 297 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,980 without having to like, you know, run my choices by 298 00:16:09,050 --> 00:16:12,160 everybody and second guess myself and doubt myself and all 299 00:16:12,170 --> 00:16:13,740 of that. So, you know, I think the 300 00:16:13,750 --> 00:16:16,470 industry is changing a lot. Like I remember when I was a, a 301 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,850 law student, like I would have never imagined doing some of the 302 00:16:19,860 --> 00:16:22,730 things that I'm doing right now. Like if you had told me that I 303 00:16:22,740 --> 00:16:27,050 would be writing, you know, content 8000 people on LinkedIn, 304 00:16:27,060 --> 00:16:28,770 I would have said that, you know, you're crazy. 305 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,110 So it's like kind of, I don't know. 306 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,550 And there's a long winded way of saying like, trust your own 307 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,710 judgment and like you're, you're, you're well equipped to 308 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,350 make decisions for yourself. You don't need to listen to 309 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,410 everybody's advice on everything. 310 00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:43,510 That was the first thing I would say. 311 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:48,220 And the second thing I would say is, you know, for me anyways, 312 00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:52,620 like the connections that I have made in the law have like saved 313 00:16:52,630 --> 00:16:55,880 me on so many occasions. And when I say that, I mean like 314 00:16:55,950 --> 00:16:59,540 it's so easy to get caught up in like your own firm and who you 315 00:16:59,550 --> 00:17:02,080 work with that your own firm and like, you know, what that looks 316 00:17:02,090 --> 00:17:03,370 like in your relationships with them. 317 00:17:03,380 --> 00:17:07,040 I'm like, that's a great thing. But having a network outside of 318 00:17:07,050 --> 00:17:09,839 the firm that she worked at is so important. 319 00:17:09,849 --> 00:17:12,839 Like I've been really intentional about really meeting 320 00:17:12,849 --> 00:17:16,329 like minded people on the like, not from a business development 321 00:17:16,339 --> 00:17:20,660 listed, but in my support network person deadline, I've 322 00:17:20,670 --> 00:17:25,750 identified people that I know share my values, made real 323 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,650 organic, like friendships and relationships with these people. 324 00:17:28,660 --> 00:17:32,870 And we have each other's backs. And for me that is being usually 325 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,790 hugely, hugely helpful. So, you know, it's really easy 326 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,070 to get caught up in billing time and billable hours and all of 327 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:40,710 that. And like that's all great, but 328 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,850 like the connections, the relationship piece of this 329 00:17:43,860 --> 00:17:46,910 business is really it's so valuable. 330 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,260 So really like invest time and energy into that. 331 00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:52,360 Like I'm still very good friends with a lot of people that I went 332 00:17:52,370 --> 00:17:56,010 to law school with and we foster those relationships that were 10 333 00:17:56,020 --> 00:17:58,110 years out. We still do trips together every 334 00:17:58,120 --> 00:17:59,950 year. We still go skiing together 335 00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:02,670 every year where at each other's kids birthday parties. 336 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,450 Like, those are the same people now that are sending me work 337 00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:08,270 and, you know, I didn't stay in touch with them because I wanted 338 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,670 work from them. It's like they're these are real 339 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,670 relationships. And I think that that's made my 340 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,470 career just so much more fulfilling. 341 00:18:15,580 --> 00:18:20,290 I love to hear that it's been so good to have this common topic, 342 00:18:20,340 --> 00:18:24,530 like across most of my interviews, that relationships 343 00:18:24,540 --> 00:18:27,590 really are a big thing of life really. 344 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,290 So I'm, I'm so glad that, you know, lawyers are always talking 345 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:34,380 about it. And it's, it's been interesting 346 00:18:34,390 --> 00:18:38,230 because I don't know if we speak so much more of these these days 347 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,210 because for some time maybe this was forgotten or hopefully that 348 00:18:42,220 --> 00:18:44,300 was not the case. Hopefully it's just everybody 349 00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:48,310 really recognizes the importance of having relationships, having 350 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,250 a life out of work in a way. So. 351 00:18:50,260 --> 00:18:52,210 It's yeah, I mean, that's good thing. 352 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:53,350 Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to 353 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:55,640 interrupt you there, but I just. I'm just thinking out loud here. 354 00:18:55,650 --> 00:19:00,650 Like, you know, I like what is success if you can't share it 355 00:19:00,660 --> 00:19:02,860 with people? Like, I mean, like I again, I 356 00:19:02,870 --> 00:19:05,580 just had lunch with a friend of mine and you know, we just 357 00:19:05,650 --> 00:19:09,020 should another like, you know, really good lawyer in town and 358 00:19:09,190 --> 00:19:11,700 we're just kind of laughing about something and, you know, 359 00:19:11,710 --> 00:19:14,320 chuckling. And like, just like you have to 360 00:19:14,330 --> 00:19:16,560 see the lighter part of this business, right? 361 00:19:16,570 --> 00:19:20,780 If you just like get into like the slogging and the grinding 362 00:19:20,790 --> 00:19:22,630 and you don't make any relationships, you don't make 363 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,280 any friendships. Like that is no way to live. 364 00:19:25,350 --> 00:19:28,420 Like that's just my, my take on it, you know, so I just never 365 00:19:28,430 --> 00:19:31,720 been one of those people who like goes to work, does my work 366 00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:34,220 with my head down and goes home. Like I'm making like real 367 00:19:34,230 --> 00:19:36,480 relationships when I'm there, whether that's, you know, at the 368 00:19:36,490 --> 00:19:39,260 firm that I'm at. Like I've got friends at every 369 00:19:39,270 --> 00:19:41,660 firm that I've worked at. Like I was just set of friends 370 00:19:41,670 --> 00:19:44,780 wedding who I worked out with at Dentons, which is like, you 371 00:19:44,790 --> 00:19:46,960 know, 2 firms ago. But like, we're still very good 372 00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:49,680 friends. I still see people from the 373 00:19:49,690 --> 00:19:52,630 first firm that I worked at where I suffered an article and 374 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,100 I was on there for a couple of years. 375 00:19:54,110 --> 00:19:57,220 I've called like, I still in most of those relationships 376 00:19:57,230 --> 00:19:59,640 because that's what makes this. So that's like the beautiful 377 00:19:59,650 --> 00:20:02,020 human element of, of this job, right? 378 00:20:02,030 --> 00:20:05,740 So, yeah, I, I just really think it is, it's so valuable. 379 00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:07,400 And it's just really easy to sing. 380 00:20:07,410 --> 00:20:10,240 Oh, you know, I'm really tired. I don't want to slot in that 381 00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:13,400 lunch with so And so that's, you know, another hour away from the 382 00:20:13,410 --> 00:20:16,160 office and. Do another hour of billable time 383 00:20:16,170 --> 00:20:19,240 and like get home sooner. But like, there's no fun in, in 384 00:20:19,250 --> 00:20:21,590 my opinion anyway. We are amazing. 385 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,900 Loved hearing that. If I were to ask you maybe to 386 00:20:24,910 --> 00:20:28,580 wrap up today's episode, however, you however you felt 387 00:20:28,590 --> 00:20:30,780 that LinkedIn has played a role in all of that. 388 00:20:30,790 --> 00:20:33,620 Personally, I felt that it it really has helped me to keep in 389 00:20:33,630 --> 00:20:36,120 touch with people when I want to share work update. 390 00:20:36,130 --> 00:20:38,340 But maybe it's not something that I want to do in a one to 391 00:20:38,350 --> 00:20:42,580 one setting or some topic that I'm interested in passionate 392 00:20:42,590 --> 00:20:44,320 about. And then I usually hear good 393 00:20:44,330 --> 00:20:46,640 feedback about it. So I'm, I'm very, very curious 394 00:20:46,650 --> 00:20:49,140 to hear how does that come? Around to you. 395 00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:53,040 LinkedIn is amazing. It's like, like, honestly, like 396 00:20:53,050 --> 00:20:55,000 people would make fun of me for doing LinkedIn. 397 00:20:55,010 --> 00:20:57,560 Like I, and it's funny because before my LinkedIn president 398 00:20:57,570 --> 00:21:00,080 said really took off of when I was really small, people would 399 00:21:00,090 --> 00:21:02,940 be like, you know, technically she's like a LinkedIn 400 00:21:02,950 --> 00:21:05,620 influencer. People really judgy about it. 401 00:21:05,690 --> 00:21:07,900 And it's funny because those same people now who are like, 402 00:21:07,910 --> 00:21:10,290 wow, you're such an amazing referral network. 403 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,140 And I'm like, that's all they did, right? 404 00:21:12,150 --> 00:21:14,940 Like I never ever gotten a file from LinkedIn. 405 00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:16,800 Like nobody's ever like cold LinkedIn. 406 00:21:16,810 --> 00:21:19,150 Message me. Hey, I need your legal services. 407 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,280 You don't need. But like I've made so many 408 00:21:21,290 --> 00:21:23,960 amazing connections with other lawyers to my dad. 409 00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:27,940 Like that has been amazing for my career and my desk. 410 00:21:27,950 --> 00:21:31,360 It's just, it's, it's amazing. The other thing that Lynchin has 411 00:21:31,370 --> 00:21:35,640 given me is agency. Like I have control over my own 412 00:21:35,650 --> 00:21:39,100 connections, my own marketing. Like I'm able to put out, you 413 00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:41,520 know, interesting cases that I've read, interesting cases 414 00:21:41,530 --> 00:21:44,460 that I've worked on, Like it's my own firm wouldn't market me 415 00:21:44,530 --> 00:21:47,850 and the way that I want it to be marketed, I would do it right. 416 00:21:47,860 --> 00:21:50,520 So it gave me agency and control over my career. 417 00:21:50,530 --> 00:21:53,760 Like I could share my win. I could share my opinions. 418 00:21:53,770 --> 00:21:57,440 I, I get to have my own narrative of my own career. 419 00:21:57,450 --> 00:22:00,920 And that was something that is so rare, especially for women 420 00:22:00,930 --> 00:22:04,020 and especially for racialized women, especially for young 421 00:22:04,030 --> 00:22:06,520 lawyers. It is really, really rare to 422 00:22:06,530 --> 00:22:08,550 have this much agency over your old. 423 00:22:08,610 --> 00:22:12,300 I get to share my own story from my own land owners. 424 00:22:13,530 --> 00:22:16,000 I see things nobody gets to tell me. 425 00:22:16,070 --> 00:22:18,860 And that agency is really invaluable. 426 00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:21,120 Like I get to I get to shape my own career. 427 00:22:21,450 --> 00:22:23,920 And I've done a lot of that through my LinkedIn presence, 428 00:22:23,930 --> 00:22:26,940 which I think is pretty cool. So, you know, I'm really happy I 429 00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:29,230 didn't listen to the people who told me to shut my LinkedIn 430 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,800 down. And I really think that a lot of 431 00:22:31,810 --> 00:22:35,420 people who send bots were genuinely looking for me. 432 00:22:35,930 --> 00:22:38,480 But some of them just didn't like that I was doing something 433 00:22:38,490 --> 00:22:40,120 different. And it was sort of threatening 434 00:22:40,130 --> 00:22:42,880 to their odea of what the status quo should look like. 435 00:22:42,890 --> 00:22:46,670 And they wanted a world in which, you know, we all wait in 436 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,200 the wings for them to allow us to like have a leadership 437 00:22:50,210 --> 00:22:54,800 position or feel really have an opinion or build our own 438 00:22:55,090 --> 00:22:57,370 practice. And I just said no to all of 439 00:22:57,380 --> 00:22:58,850 that. And I just did it myself. 440 00:22:58,860 --> 00:23:02,190 So I think mentions Linton is the single best thing I've ever 441 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,170 done genuinely. That's that's I say that 442 00:23:04,180 --> 00:23:07,270 wholeheartedly outside of like, you know, doing a good job. 443 00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:11,110 It's like you get if you get good work, then you don't know 444 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:12,750 how to do it, you're kind of screwed. 445 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,090 So I always focused on like being as good of a lawyer as I 446 00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:18,850 could possibly be, putting in the hours, doing all of that. 447 00:23:18,860 --> 00:23:22,850 But in terms of like building connections and doing that in, 448 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,090 in a way that like made sense for me. 449 00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:28,760 And it's sort of interesting talking about it because none of 450 00:23:28,770 --> 00:23:31,190 it was really planned. Like I never had like a plan 451 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,070 with LinkedIn. It just turned into something 452 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:34,910 more than I could have ever anticipated. 453 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,550 But yeah, it's definitely being one of the single bus things 454 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,960 I've done for my career. I love hearing that. 455 00:23:39,970 --> 00:23:43,100 Thank you so much for sharing. It really, really appreciated. 456 00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:46,100 And thank you for taking the time to join in the podcast 457 00:23:46,110 --> 00:23:47,470 today. I really appreciate learning 458 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,250 more about your career and your insights. 459 00:23:50,050 --> 00:23:52,590 Thank you so much for having me with me and so much fun chatting 460 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,810 with you. And I'm, I'm, I'm excited that, 461 00:23:55,820 --> 00:23:58,890 you know, so many more young people are doing fun things like 462 00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:00,300 this. And I think it's great. 463 00:24:00,310 --> 00:24:03,870 And I say keep on doing it. Really appreciate it and thank 464 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,620 you all for tuning in and listening to today's episode.